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   3 2013-12-19 06:20:55 <wyager> Maybe put something like this in the document
   4 2013-12-19 06:20:56 <wyager> CKD((k,c), 1) = private key A
   5 2013-12-19 06:20:57 <wyager> CKD'((K,c), 1) = public key A
   6 2013-12-19 06:20:58 <wyager> CKD((k,c), -1) = private key B
   7 2013-12-19 06:20:58 <wyager> CKD'((K,c) -1) = error
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  10 2013-12-19 06:26:09 <gmaxwell> yea, I was thinking of a little graphic with four boxes for CKD / CKD'  on the left and 'Pub derv' 'Priv derv' in the top.. and a red X in one of the quadrants.
  11 2013-12-19 06:26:13 <gmaxwell> so vaguely similar.
  12 2013-12-19 06:26:44 Thepok has joined
  13 2013-12-19 06:31:38 <wyager> Thanks for being patient with me :)
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  22 2013-12-19 06:39:45 <gmaxwell> Thanks for tolerating the stab wounds.
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  38 2013-12-19 06:56:43 <wyager> Another suggestion to help explain the idea behind this:
  39 2013-12-19 06:56:45 <wyager> let pub = g * priv
  40 2013-12-19 06:56:46 <wyager> let priv2 = priv + ∆
  41 2013-12-19 06:56:47 <wyager> pub2 = g * priv2
  42 2013-12-19 06:56:49 <wyager> pub2 = g * (priv + ∆)
  43 2013-12-19 06:56:51 <wyager> pub2 = (g * priv) + (g * ∆)
  44 2013-12-19 06:56:52 <wyager> pub2 = pub + (g*∆)
  45 2013-12-19 06:58:54 <wyager> I hope the delta didn't get mangled by IRC
  46 2013-12-19 06:59:06 <Arnavion> Not onutf-8 it didn't
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  48 2013-12-19 07:05:24 <Krellan> I see delta just fine on Linux and Mac, nice
  49 2013-12-19 07:05:48 MobPhone has quit (Quit: -a- brb)
  50 2013-12-19 07:05:54 <Krellan> Still looking for info about stock exchange implemented using colored coins - any pointers?
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  52 2013-12-19 07:08:20 <jcorgan> scenario and question
  53 2013-12-19 07:08:31 <jcorgan> i have a new bitcoind node in onlynet=tor mode
  54 2013-12-19 07:08:50 MobPhone has joined
  55 2013-12-19 07:08:50 <jcorgan> i have two other nodes in the same config with many connections
  56 2013-12-19 07:09:03 <jcorgan> i addnode=foo.onion in each of the two other nodes
  57 2013-12-19 07:09:13 <jcorgan> and they successfully connect to the new node
  58 2013-12-19 07:09:33 <jcorgan> so, is there anything else i have to do for the new node foo.onion to become known to the wider network?
  59 2013-12-19 07:10:28 <jcorgan> the foo.onion node has the two inbound connections, no outbound connections, as has been up for an hour or so
  60 2013-12-19 07:10:55 hydrogenesis has joined
  61 2013-12-19 07:11:59 <gmaxwell> you must have externalip=foo.onion set
  62 2013-12-19 07:12:05 <gmaxwell> (on the foo.onion node)
  63 2013-12-19 07:12:09 <jcorgan> yes, it is
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  66 2013-12-19 07:13:10 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: it should advertise itself after its synced up and again every 24 hours.
  67 2013-12-19 07:13:11 <jcorgan> ok, as you said before, thanks
  68 2013-12-19 07:13:54 <jcorgan> now to go tackle electrum-server-behind-tor set up
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  71 2013-12-19 07:19:54 <wyager> Gmaxwell: Before I posted on the thread, I wanted to run this by you: "4 bytes: SHA256(SHA256(master_bitcoin_public_address))[0...3], used both for typo checking and as part of the salt."
  72 2013-12-19 07:19:59 <wyager> Why not use a random salt and base58check typo checking? This is an info leak, and someone can figure out which address is held in a cold wallet if the address has ever been used on the blockchain. They only have to iterate over all known addresses.
  73 2013-12-19 07:20:35 hydrogenesis has quit (Client Quit)
  74 2013-12-19 07:21:54 <wyager> So if the police find your wallet or something, they can prove with a decently high probability that you control the master public address on the wallet
  75 2013-12-19 07:22:24 <wyager> If you've used the address, that is
  76 2013-12-19 07:23:09 <gmaxwell> wyager: The purpose is to check that the decrypted data is correct, so it actually has to validate the decrypted data.
  77 2013-12-19 07:23:13 <gmaxwell> (including typos in the password)
  78 2013-12-19 07:23:54 <wyager> Why is it insufficient to validate the encrypted data?
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  80 2013-12-19 07:23:55 <gmaxwell> Because the user may type in the wrong password.
  81 2013-12-19 07:24:24 <wyager> Can't the validation also be encrypted?
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  83 2013-12-19 07:24:33 <wyager> I.e. the hash itself is encrypted along with everything else
  84 2013-12-19 07:24:39 <wyager> and there is a separate random salt
  85 2013-12-19 07:24:41 <gmaxwell> The purpose of the salt is, as always, to prevent precomputation attacks from being effective. Ideally it would be some large random value so that the chance of any precomputation gain is negligible even if you had many stolen keys... but that comes at a cost of increasing the key size.
  86 2013-12-19 07:24:44 <wyager> No info leak that way
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  89 2013-12-19 07:26:26 <gmaxwell> Only at the cost of increasing the length. You can propose that, in the old BIP38 stuff the ability to determine the pubkey directly from the encoding was a very intentional feature, but here, indeed, it could perhaps be eliminated.
  90 2013-12-19 07:26:29 <wyager> Could we also take SHA(SHA(private key))?
  91 2013-12-19 07:27:59 <gmaxwell> yea, sure, someone might whine about the certificational weakness of that (it leaks some data about the private key, but I think its sufficiently insubstantial)
  92 2013-12-19 07:29:02 <wyager> OK cool
  93 2013-12-19 07:29:09 <wyager> I posted on the thread
  94 2013-12-19 07:29:33 <gmaxwell> Good point I can't believe I didn't point that out before, I guess I was still stuck on the mike caldwell's prior stuff that made the address explicitly visible... which I didn't like then but I was defeated. :P
  95 2013-12-19 07:29:54 <wyager> Haha
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  99 2013-12-19 07:30:54 <gmaxwell> fwiw, I personally don't prefer to use the police as the threat model, its often less realistic then plenty of other boring threads, and its politically loaded. (and also moot, since— as sufficiently evil and powerful state authority can just drop you in a hole and throw away the key)
 100 2013-12-19 07:30:54 knotwork has joined
 101 2013-12-19 07:30:59 <wyager> True
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 103 2013-12-19 07:32:05 <gmaxwell> A fine example is just a boring evil made, finds the keys.. you'd prefer she not be able to determine the value lest she realize its a lot and consider it worth bringing in her firearms expert cousin. :P
 104 2013-12-19 07:32:08 <wyager> good point haha
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 106 2013-12-19 07:32:19 <wyager> made the example less political
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 114 2013-12-19 07:37:16 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, all the bitcoin users will just disappear for indefinite detention on one of the evil empire's prison ships. When you look at theories of competition between currencies, something like bitcoin cant be allowed to exist (unless it is stays something that is really niche like paypal)
 115 2013-12-19 07:37:54 <HaltingState> i hope and think bitcoin might stay in that niche until its ready
 116 2013-12-19 07:37:54 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: please, not in this channel.
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 124 2013-12-19 07:56:34 <wyager> gmaxwell: Any idea why the root key gets xor'd with the first 32 bytes of the hash before AES encryption? A fail-safe if AES is broken?
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 127 2013-12-19 07:58:28 <gmaxwell> wyager: it's whitening, AES is used in ECB mode, without it it would leak repeated patterns in the key.
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 132 2013-12-19 07:59:54 <wyager> Oh
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 151 2013-12-19 08:28:24 <The_Fly> if i have issued 'sendfrom' and bitcoind has created a transaction which was not broadcast on the network, is it sufficient to follow these rather hacky steps and confirm the transaction is gone with 'listtransactions' to ensure it will not be broadcast when I next start up bitcoind? http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/570/is-there-a-way-to-undo-transactions-with-a-too-low-fee/2415#2415
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 153 2013-12-19 08:29:24 <The_Fly> at the time the network interface was down, and i'd like to purge this transaction completely
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 161 2013-12-19 08:47:04 <The_Fly> i'll try pywallet as mentioned here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=35214.0
 162 2013-12-19 08:47:55 <The_Fly> just unsure that this is enough to garauntee that the transaction is never broadcast, if anyone could advise i'd appreciate it massively
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 171 2013-12-19 08:52:55 <tommygunner> just keep bitcoind running, it will rebroadcast
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 173 2013-12-19 08:53:09 <The_Fly> i dont want to rebroadcast
 174 2013-12-19 08:53:28 <tommygunner> oh
 175 2013-12-19 08:53:44 <abishek> when will gettransaction method have block details
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 177 2013-12-19 08:54:09 <The_Fly> tommygunner: that's what im asking, if it is sufficient to db4.8_dump/load to edit wallet.dat
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 179 2013-12-19 08:54:55 <tommygunner> you could just dump all private keys and import them to a new wallet
 180 2013-12-19 08:55:28 <The_Fly> that is the way to be totally sure, and i can do in this case
 181 2013-12-19 08:56:28 <wumpus> removing the transaction from the db48 dump is enough to get rid of it
 182 2013-12-19 08:56:52 <wumpus> you could even remove all tx records then do a rescan
 183 2013-12-19 08:56:53 <The_Fly> wumpus: thanks
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 185 2013-12-19 08:57:15 <wumpus> (note: do back up your wallet beforehand)
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 187 2013-12-19 08:57:38 <The_Fly> indeed :) i have been doing so
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 190 2013-12-19 09:00:24 <The_Fly> the signed transaction is stored in wallet.dat, along with a hasBeenBroadcast(or whatever) flag? that's what i was hoping
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 194 2013-12-19 09:06:11 <wumpus> the signed transaction is stored in wallet.dat
 195 2013-12-19 09:06:17 <wumpus> there is no hasBeenBroadcast flag
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 197 2013-12-19 09:06:40 <wumpus> it doesn't need one; it rebroadcasts all transactions that are not in a block yet / anymore
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 199 2013-12-19 09:07:28 <The_Fly> ah, of course, lol
 200 2013-12-19 09:07:54 <The_Fly> i was curious, thanks again wumpus
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 202 2013-12-19 09:09:55 <wumpus> (it would actually be a possible optimization to include a flag when a transaction made it into the block chain at a certain depth so that the rebroadcast logic can skip it, then again, the bitcoind/-qt wallet code has all kinds of scaling issues with a lot of transactions and this likely isn't the worst offender)
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 219 2013-12-19 09:26:40 <abishek> what is the configuration to run the bitcoid as a daemon?
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 223 2013-12-19 09:27:17 <wumpus> abishek: -daemon
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 232 2013-12-19 09:31:24 <abishek> if I am not enabled server configuration, should i still set the rpcusername and password?
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 240 2013-12-19 09:35:22 <wumpus> abishek: yes, you cannot run bitcoind without RPC configured
 241 2013-12-19 09:35:34 <abishek> ok
 242 2013-12-19 09:36:36 <wumpus> (I guess it would make sense in some cases to be able to run the daemon without RPC, pull requests welcome...)
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 245 2013-12-19 09:37:59 <abishek> anyreason why RPC credentials are requires even if the server conf is set to 0. From the docs, -server is the one that allows rpc communication with bitcoind right
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 247 2013-12-19 09:39:12 <wumpus> as I said, bitcoind forces server mode
 248 2013-12-19 09:39:49 TD has joined
 249 2013-12-19 09:40:10 <wumpus> it would be pretty trivial to support -noserver (or -server=0) for bitcoind, so feel free to do that
 250 2013-12-19 09:40:34 <t7> oh great now i can get GPG key stolen if someone can hear my cpu
 251 2013-12-19 09:40:54 <t7> must only do my personal computing in a vacuum chamber
 252 2013-12-19 09:41:02 <wumpus> shhh, silent, so I can hear your CPU :)
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 255 2013-12-19 09:41:35 <wumpus> t7 in a faraday cage
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 260 2013-12-19 09:42:52 <abishek> wumpus, what does server=0 mean?
 261 2013-12-19 09:42:53 <wumpus> also you should do your typing in a vacuum chamber too, for keyboards are noisy things and from the sound/timing patterns a lot can be reconstructed
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 263 2013-12-19 09:44:22 <wumpus> abishek: it would mean "don't run a server" *if* bitcoind didn't force server mode ....
 264 2013-12-19 09:44:54 <wumpus> (RPC server)
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 266 2013-12-19 09:45:53 <wumpus> look, the code is here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/init.cpp#L490
 267 2013-12-19 09:46:05 <abishek> what does not work if server is set to 0?
 268 2013-12-19 09:46:30 <wumpus> ... I just said that
 269 2013-12-19 09:47:06 <abishek> ok, i will have a look at it
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 275 2013-12-19 09:50:34 <ntio> why do we care about shamirs paper? I mean bitcoin doesn't use RSA, right?
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 320 2013-12-19 10:14:27 <sipa> gmaxwell: agree, the double meaning of public/private derivation are confusing
 321 2013-12-19 10:14:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: suggestions for a nice adjective?
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 328 2013-12-19 10:19:19 <sipa> abishek: the -server option simply doesn't exist for bitcoind; it always runs in server mode
 329 2013-12-19 10:19:20 <abishek> ok
 330 2013-12-19 10:19:29 <sipa> abishek: it only applies to the GUI where having the RPC server is optional
 331 2013-12-19 10:19:42 <sipa> as wumpus said, this could be changed
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 454 2013-12-19 11:46:37 <jaromil> t7: a fix for gpg1 is out, gpg2 is not affected. using an SSD also helps.
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 456 2013-12-19 11:46:59 <jaromil> i found the bug intriguing and interesting. reminds me of good old tempest times. very nice.
 457 2013-12-19 11:47:27 <t7> wumpus: no one can steal my passwords from keyboard sounds, i use voice control
 458 2013-12-19 11:48:27 <uiop> regarding WIF private keys, what is the meaning of the distinction between a WIF privkey associated with an uncompressed versus a compressed public key? can't the public key be derived from the private via d*G? (i suspect this distinction has to do with the checksum in the WIF key, but if so i don't get the point, why not just choose *one* pubkey repr?)
 459 2013-12-19 11:48:47 <t7> voice recognition is so bad that robots will never steal my private key
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 461 2013-12-19 11:48:55 <wumpus> t7: hah! foiled them
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 465 2013-12-19 11:50:16 <lianj> uiop: i don't understand your question :)
 466 2013-12-19 11:50:19 <lianj> what?
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 468 2013-12-19 11:51:33 <uiop> oh wait, (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Private_key) seemed to suggest that was the case, but upon reading (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_import_format) i see no mention of that
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 470 2013-12-19 11:52:36 <uiop> lianj: (from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Private_key): "For private keys associated with uncompressed public keys, they are 51 characters and always start with the number 5. Private keys associated with compressed public keys are 52 characters and start with a capital L or K."
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 473 2013-12-19 11:52:55 <uiop> is what prompted that question
 474 2013-12-19 11:53:10 <lianj> uiop: what case? wif can have a compressed flag in which case the derived public key must be compressed
 475 2013-12-19 11:53:51 <lianj> ok it better to look at it base58 decoded :)
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 479 2013-12-19 11:55:12 <uiop> lianj: oh, hmm. but what/who is the consumer of the eventual public key, and why couldn't they just convert to compressed (resp. uncompressed) form? i.e. why is an encoding decision of a derived entity (which hasn't been derived yet) represented in the WIF privkey?
 480 2013-12-19 11:55:46 * uiop is surely missing something obvious
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 482 2013-12-19 11:57:05 <uiop> oh. i got it.
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 486 2013-12-19 11:58:10 <uiop> so the *address* computed from a public key will be different depending on if the pubkey is compressed or not, so the format of the privkey tells the importer what address to use
 487 2013-12-19 11:58:14 <uiop> (or something)
 488 2013-12-19 11:58:35 <lianj> right
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 515 2013-12-19 12:24:15 <sipa> uiop: exactly
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 554 2013-12-19 12:53:34 <abishek> could someone advice on what is a suitable way to display bitcoin currencies using PHP
 555 2013-12-19 12:55:08 <abishek> if I have 0.04 and if I display using number_format(0.04,8), it displays as 0.039999999. How can i fix this
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 560 2013-12-19 12:57:20 <wumpus> abishek: does PHP have a 'decimal' class? do not use floating point numbers for monetary values
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 563 2013-12-19 12:58:09 <abishek> wumpus, not it doesn't I maintain my monetary columns on the DB as float(length,8)
 564 2013-12-19 12:59:12 <abishek> wumpus, what is the ideal way to store bitcoin money in mysql?
 565 2013-12-19 12:59:15 <sipa> do NOT use a float for monetary types
 566 2013-12-19 12:59:19 <wumpus> in that case use int64's and use 8 digits fixed point ... whatever you do, don't use floating point
 567 2013-12-19 12:59:35 <wumpus> AFAIK SQL does have a decimal type
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 569 2013-12-19 12:59:51 <sipa> yup
 570 2013-12-19 13:00:23 <sipa> DECIMAL(16,8) is what you want for bitcoin amounts
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 578 2013-12-19 13:02:48 <abishek> wumpus, sipa, thnx for the help
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 599 2013-12-19 13:23:53 <abishek> does bitcoin use ICMP protocols or only TCP?
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 607 2013-12-19 13:28:43 <sipa> only TCP
 608 2013-12-19 13:28:55 <sipa> well, it uses DNS lookup, which usually uses UDP
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 653 2013-12-19 13:51:33 <darsie> Why does the difficulty of finding a pattern with vanitygen depend on the pattern, pattern length being equal?
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 660 2013-12-19 13:56:48 <darsie> lower case characters after the leading one are rare ... Probably the length of the hash converted to base58check is smaller than the number of bits in strlen(address) base58check digits.
 661 2013-12-19 13:57:06 <sipa> only the first character or so should matter
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 676 2013-12-19 14:07:11 <deanclkclk> hello
 677 2013-12-19 14:07:36 <deanclkclk> so anyone use java/spring to communicate with bitcoind json-rpc?
 678 2013-12-19 14:07:43 <deanclkclk> I'm using the restTemplate
 679 2013-12-19 14:08:02 <darsie> that's a meta question.
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 682 2013-12-19 14:09:59 <deanclkclk> I know but, do I send the credentials on every request?
 683 2013-12-19 14:10:18 <deanclkclk> meaning is bitcoind stateless
 684 2013-12-19 14:10:29 <sipa> yes
 685 2013-12-19 14:10:58 <ahmedbodi> hey guys
 686 2013-12-19 14:11:15 <ahmedbodi> on stratum theres people that try to connect to the pool with http
 687 2013-12-19 14:11:39 <ahmedbodi> is it possible to use an X-Stratum header like with getwork to send them to the correct port?
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 694 2013-12-19 14:13:40 <darsie> http isn't limited to a specific port. I guess you could redicect to host:1337. Not sure if that is applicable  in your case.
 695 2013-12-19 14:14:30 <darsie> with a location http header.
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 697 2013-12-19 14:17:22 <ahmedbodi> darsie: thats what i want to find out about doing with stratum-mining :)
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 720 2013-12-19 14:30:16 <xeroc> where can I read about the redemption script in P2SH? what is made of? its a hash of a script as i understand it .. but what hash? what script syntax?
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 724 2013-12-19 14:32:19 <jgarzik> xeroc, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
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 728 2013-12-19 14:35:06 <jgarzik> xeroc, it uses OP_HASH160 for the hash, which is ripemd160(sha256(data))
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 733 2013-12-19 14:38:01 <xeroc> an the script is much like the good-old multisig script (as an example)
 734 2013-12-19 14:38:18 <xeroc> but all other standard scripts are allowed too .. i guess ..
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 740 2013-12-19 14:43:27 <owowo> http://i.imgur.com/IItQc33.png <<.. license plate, firstbits? ;o)
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 742 2013-12-19 14:43:56 <jgarzik> xeroc, any script is "allowed" in a block
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 745 2013-12-19 14:44:01 <jgarzik> xeroc, not all scripts will be relayed
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 775 2013-12-19 15:01:08 <xeroc> jgarzik: I see .. thx for clarification
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 777 2013-12-19 15:02:00 <xeroc> owowo: afaik 0,0,o are not valid in btc-addresse ..
 778 2013-12-19 15:02:06 <xeroc> base56 coded ..
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 785 2013-12-19 15:04:38 <owowo> found an address with o just by clicking the top block on blockexplorer
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 792 2013-12-19 15:07:36 <owowo> but you seem to be right with 0
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 805 2013-12-19 15:12:28 <TD> my node has hit the orphan pool limit. i wonder where they are all coming from
 806 2013-12-19 15:12:53 <owowo> xeroc: ...except 0, O, I, and l
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 809 2013-12-19 15:13:32 <xeroc> ah .. i see
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 814 2013-12-19 15:14:14 <owowo> so o is ok, O n0t ;)
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 848 2013-12-19 15:33:41 <helo> if every ~30 to ~45 minutes i'm receiving a flood of several hundred "ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : inputs already spent" messages, is this likely a node that isn't synched up broadcasting all of its wallet transactions?
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 851 2013-12-19 15:35:35 <TD> probably
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 861 2013-12-19 15:37:53 <evan82> What's a good IDE for Ubuntu?
 862 2013-12-19 15:37:59 <evan82> for bitcoin dev
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 869 2013-12-19 15:40:07 <helo> i'm willing to bet that most bitcoin devs use various layouts of terminal windows running bash
 870 2013-12-19 15:40:24 <sipa> what are 'windows' ?
 871 2013-12-19 15:40:52 <helo> oops... s/windows/instances/
 872 2013-12-19 15:41:07 <sipa> mine is rectangular as layout
 873 2013-12-19 15:41:15 <lianj> helo: i hope they use one window with tmux inside
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 875 2013-12-19 15:41:45 <sipa> just different terminal tabs
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 877 2013-12-19 15:41:57 <sipa> i hate having multiple things at the same time on my screen
 878 2013-12-19 15:42:40 <evan82> helo, oh ok. thanks
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 881 2013-12-19 15:43:58 <jgarzik> IDE?  That's a hard drive technology from 20 years ago ;p
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 883 2013-12-19 15:45:03 * sipa uses GIT
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 894 2013-12-19 15:53:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|16:39:39 <owowo> http://i.imgur.com/IItQc33.png <<.. license plate, firstbits? ;o)
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 897 2013-12-19 15:53:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is there an address with those firstbits?
 898 2013-12-19 15:54:01 <owowo> no
 899 2013-12-19 15:54:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(that is, has one been used?)
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 901 2013-12-19 15:54:27 <owowo> no
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 903 2013-12-19 15:55:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Took about 330 million keys to find one
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 907 2013-12-19 15:55:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hm, shouldn't `importprivkey privkey 0` skip the rescan?
 908 2013-12-19 15:56:33 <Xeno-Genesis> Hello, I read somewhere a few months ago that Bitcoin-Qt would be supporting BIP-0032 HD wallets, is that still on the development track?
 909 2013-12-19 15:56:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bah
 910 2013-12-19 15:56:40 <Xeno-Genesis> Did I read incorrectly?
 911 2013-12-19 15:56:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|first argument is for label
 912 2013-12-19 15:56:51 <sipa> Xeno-Genesis: it may not make it in 0.9
 913 2013-12-19 15:57:01 <sipa> but yes, the plan is certainly to move to bip32 wallets
 914 2013-12-19 15:57:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hey, did git head get a rework of the rpc "help" method?
 915 2013-12-19 15:57:14 <Xeno-Genesis> sipa, That means that I can reasonably assume it's going to be there at some moment in the future.
 916 2013-12-19 15:57:19 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: yes
 917 2013-12-19 15:57:20 <sipa> Xeno-Genesis: yes
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 920 2013-12-19 15:58:45 <Xeno-Genesis> sipa, Thanks Pieter.
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 922 2013-12-19 15:58:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|To update git head is just configure;make, right?
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 924 2013-12-19 15:59:39 <sipa> yes
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 926 2013-12-19 16:00:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Grr, stupid label field
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 935 2013-12-19 16:04:21 <jgarzik> well, autogen.sh/configure/make
 936 2013-12-19 16:04:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik: My question was, is another autogen needed
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 938 2013-12-19 16:05:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(what does autogen do, anyway?)
 939 2013-12-19 16:05:09 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, generates configure
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 941 2013-12-19 16:05:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does configure change? o_O
 942 2013-12-19 16:05:32 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, so if Makefile.am or configure.ac changed, you need autogen.sh to regenerate configure
 943 2013-12-19 16:05:40 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, configure generates Makefile from Makefile.in
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 945 2013-12-19 16:05:59 <jgarzik> configure generates the Makefiles
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 947 2013-12-19 16:07:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|How long does a rescan take, by the way?
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 949 2013-12-19 16:07:12 <sipa> depends on disk speed, mostly
 950 2013-12-19 16:07:18 <sipa> 10-20 minutes?
 951 2013-12-19 16:07:25 <sipa> haven't done so in a long time
 952 2013-12-19 16:07:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's been 10 so far
 953 2013-12-19 16:07:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'll go put in a load of laundry and hopefully it'll be done when I get back
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 987 2013-12-19 16:28:05 <berndj> michagogo|cloud, autogen.sh just runs autoreconf, which is what i wish more autogen.sh scripts would do, if they really needed to exist at all!
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1008 2013-12-19 16:40:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, in the darkwallet best practices thing on the mailing list...
1009 2013-12-19 16:40:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"Wallet software SHOULD whenever possible blur the distinctions between full UTXO set nodes, SPV nodes, and partial UTXO set nodes. In addition to those three basic categories there is also the question of whether or not a node stores archival blockchain data, something that all three categories of nodes can participate in."
1010 2013-12-19 16:40:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What's a partial UTXO set node?
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1031 2013-12-19 16:50:10 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg02511.html
1032 2013-12-19 16:50:25 <TD> michagogo|cloud: something that currently does not exist
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1041 2013-12-19 16:55:45 <petertodd> TD: there's little in there that does exist...
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1043 2013-12-19 16:58:47 <TD> that's true
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1046 2013-12-19 17:01:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Am I the only one who finds the "-000" (or rather, "-<vout>") that's appended to the string in Bitcoin-Qt when you choose to copy the txid from the contextual menu on a transaction?
1047 2013-12-19 17:01:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Erm
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1049 2013-12-19 17:01:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I mean, am I the only onw who finds it annoying?
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1191 2013-12-19 19:04:55 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: i doubt it
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1216 2013-12-19 19:34:07 <berndj> how do i subscribe to the mailing list? empty mail to bitcoin-development-request@ ?
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1221 2013-12-19 19:35:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|berndj: The way I know of is, put your email address into https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
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1223 2013-12-19 19:36:29 <berndj> thanks. i found the sf archive but i didn't find that link
1224 2013-12-19 19:36:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|second Google result for bitcoin development mailing list, fwiw
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1297 2013-12-19 20:53:39 <wizkid057> so I have a bitcoind that went crazy earlier today.... its a couple versions behind (0.8.4 I think) but... http://pastebin.com/H6US9wD2
1298 2013-12-19 20:53:44 kobayashi24 has joined
1299 2013-12-19 20:56:01 msvb-lab has joined
1300 2013-12-19 20:56:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wizkid057: Odd...
1301 2013-12-19 20:56:12 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1306 2013-12-19 20:57:38 nadio_ is now known as nadio
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1312 2013-12-19 21:04:05 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, os x?
1313 2013-12-19 21:04:44 <wizkid057> phantomcircuit: Debian x64
1314 2013-12-19 21:04:51 <wizkid057> squeeze
1315 2013-12-19 21:05:28 Nesetalis has joined
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1317 2013-12-19 21:05:50 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, that looks like utxo corruption
1318 2013-12-19 21:06:37 ovidiusoft has joined
1319 2013-12-19 21:06:57 * wizkid057 sighs
1320 2013-12-19 21:06:57 <gmaxwell> inputs missing / spent is some kind of utxo corruption.
1321 2013-12-19 21:07:15 <wizkid057> wonder what would cause that
1322 2013-12-19 21:07:20 <wizkid057> disk on this machine is pretty solid
1323 2013-12-19 21:07:21 <gmaxwell> can you save the chainstate before deleting it?
1324 2013-12-19 21:07:32 <gmaxwell> (also the debug log)
1325 2013-12-19 21:07:52 <wizkid057> I killed the debug log by accident (forgot that a restart squashes it now)
1326 2013-12-19 21:08:06 <wizkid057> oh wait no i didnt
1327 2013-12-19 21:08:22 <wizkid057> its ~4GB
1328 2013-12-19 21:08:23 <wizkid057> lol
1329 2013-12-19 21:08:36 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: what else did you need?
1330 2013-12-19 21:08:45 nsh- has joined
1331 2013-12-19 21:08:45 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, chainstate folder
1332 2013-12-19 21:08:47 nsh has quit (Disconnected by services)
1333 2013-12-19 21:08:59 nsh- has quit (Changing host)
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1335 2013-12-19 21:09:00 nsh- is now known as nsh
1336 2013-12-19 21:09:39 <gmaxwell> if you remove the chainstate folder (after copying it off for me) it'll go rebuild it.
1337 2013-12-19 21:09:57 <wizkid057> so, a half-day wait
1338 2013-12-19 21:10:15 <phantomcircuit> it's faster than that now
1339 2013-12-19 21:10:51 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: huh? should take on the order of an hour unless this is some kind of slug machine.
1340 2013-12-19 21:11:05 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: its going to reindex right?
1341 2013-12-19 21:11:31 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, that's almost entirely cpu limited now
1342 2013-12-19 21:11:52 <gmaxwell> yes. (well if you just delete the chainstate it will only rebuild that, but it should take the same amount of time as a reindex)
1343 2013-12-19 21:12:00 <wizkid057> model name      : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600 CPU @ 3.40GHz
1344 2013-12-19 21:12:22 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, should take less than an hour
1345 2013-12-19 21:12:46 Namworld has joined
1346 2013-12-19 21:13:37 <wizkid057> well, we'll see
1347 2013-12-19 21:13:39 <wizkid057> here it goes
1348 2013-12-19 21:13:40 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, when you -reindex do -connect=127.0.0.1
1349 2013-12-19 21:13:44 <phantomcircuit> then restart without that
1350 2013-12-19 21:13:57 <phantomcircuit> new blocks look like orphans which slows everything down a lot
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1356 2013-12-19 21:17:21 <wizkid057> went ahead and updated it while its down
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1359 2013-12-19 21:23:57 <wizkid057> looks like this will take ages as usual
1360 2013-12-19 21:24:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wizkid057: "as usual"? How often do you find yourself reindexing that there's a usual?
1361 2013-12-19 21:25:09 <wizkid057> michagogo|cloud: when I setup new bitcoind
1362 2013-12-19 21:25:10 <wizkid057> s
1363 2013-12-19 21:25:21 <wizkid057> I have a half decent relay network going for Eligius
1364 2013-12-19 21:25:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uh, how do you set them up?
1365 2013-12-19 21:25:56 <wizkid057> compile from git, copy blockchain from another server, let it rip
1366 2013-12-19 21:26:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Erm, why reindex at all?
1367 2013-12-19 21:26:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just copy the blocks/ and chainstate/ from another node and you're good to go
1368 2013-12-19 21:26:36 <wizkid057> dont I have to shutdown a running node to do that?
1369 2013-12-19 21:26:40 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1370 2013-12-19 21:26:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes
1371 2013-12-19 21:26:51 <wizkid057> I dont like shutting them down once they've established a bunch of connections
1372 2013-12-19 21:27:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm
1373 2013-12-19 21:27:25 ValicekB has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1374 2013-12-19 21:27:28 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, dont worry you'll get them all back in no time
1375 2013-12-19 21:27:30 <phantomcircuit> lol
1376 2013-12-19 21:27:34 <phantomcircuit> which reminds me
1377 2013-12-19 21:27:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|^
1378 2013-12-19 21:27:39 debiantoruser has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1379 2013-12-19 21:27:50 <phantomcircuit> i'll be using the bounty for leveldb to buy servers and run nodes
1380 2013-12-19 21:28:13 <phantomcircuit> interested in suggestions for where to put them
1381 2013-12-19 21:28:35 <kanzure> did you grab the bounty?
1382 2013-12-19 21:28:38 <wizkid057> I try to keep at least one in every country
1383 2013-12-19 21:28:50 <gmaxwell> SPPPPAAAAAACCCCCCCEEEEEEE
1384 2013-12-19 21:28:59 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol
1385 2013-12-19 21:29:02 <wizkid057> i try to find low latency paths between them also
1386 2013-12-19 21:29:08 <phantomcircuit> i was thinking a bit more terrestrial
1387 2013-12-19 21:29:15 debiantoruser has joined
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1389 2013-12-19 21:30:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going. Going to space.
1390 2013-12-19 21:30:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Love space. Need to go to space.
1391 2013-12-19 21:30:55 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: one someplace with the absolute cheapest bandwidth possible (for pushing out a lot of bandwidth), then nodes in NZ, south america someplace, and africa someplace.
1392 2013-12-19 21:31:04 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: but I'm the best at space.
1393 2013-12-19 21:31:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Atmosphere. Black holes. Astronauts. Nebulas. Jupiter. The Big Dipper. Coinsats.
1394 2013-12-19 21:33:18 taha has joined
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1397 2013-12-19 21:35:20 <wizkid057> i probably have enough ram on this machine to move the index/chainstate to a ramdisk... wonder if that'd speed things up
1398 2013-12-19 21:35:52 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: no, but -dbcache=2000 speeds it up a fair bit.
1399 2013-12-19 21:36:08 <wizkid057> hmm..
1400 2013-12-19 21:36:25 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, leveldb writes are already in fairly large batches
1401 2013-12-19 21:36:25 sassamo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1402 2013-12-19 21:36:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Do you have enough RAM to move the *blocks* to a ramdisk?
1403 2013-12-19 21:36:33 <phantomcircuit> and leveldb writes are already very fast to begin with
1404 2013-12-19 21:36:42 <wizkid057> what about reads?
1405 2013-12-19 21:36:59 denom has joined
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1407 2013-12-19 21:37:03 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, mostly irrelevant since the utxo isn't > 300 MB
1408 2013-12-19 21:37:26 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: the blocks are all read linearly anyways.
1409 2013-12-19 21:37:28 <phantomcircuit> increasing dbcache mostly just reduces the number of context switches
1410 2013-12-19 21:37:33 <wizkid057> wonder what my bottleneck is here then...
1411 2013-12-19 21:37:43 <gmaxwell> dbcache helps because it just avoids a lot of leveldb traffic entirely.
1412 2013-12-19 21:37:46 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, latency
1413 2013-12-19 21:37:51 <wizkid057> disk is reasonably fast, CPU is decent, tons of ram
1414 2013-12-19 21:38:18 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, reindex is mostly sequential since nearly all the blocks are below checkpoints
1415 2013-12-19 21:38:22 SwampTony has joined
1416 2013-12-19 21:38:27 <phantomcircuit> so the parallel signature checks dont apply
1417 2013-12-19 21:38:43 <gmaxwell> ls
1418 2013-12-19 21:38:58 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol
1419 2013-12-19 21:39:10 <wizkid057> well, i'm wondering what you guys are doing to get ~1 hour reindex times
1420 2013-12-19 21:39:24 <wizkid057> when it takes me many hours even on badass machines
1421 2013-12-19 21:39:52 denom_ has joined
1422 2013-12-19 21:39:53 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: is it an actual badass machine or a virtual one? :P
1423 2013-12-19 21:40:27 <gmaxwell> seriously, nothing special all my figures are on ~3ghz quadcore i7 w/ ssd and 2gb dbcache... 16gb ram.
1424 2013-12-19 21:40:29 john5223 has joined
1425 2013-12-19 21:40:45 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: I just did a reindex a couple of days ago on a full dedicated machine with 12 physical cores (+12 HT), 64GB/ram, SSD RAID10
1426 2013-12-19 21:40:46 damethos has joined
1427 2013-12-19 21:40:51 <wizkid057> took almost 3 hours
1428 2013-12-19 21:41:09 sassamo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1429 2013-12-19 21:41:29 <phantomcircuit> model name	: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1245 V2 @ 3.40GHz
1430 2013-12-19 21:41:30 <phantomcircuit> MemTotal:       32916860 kB
1431 2013-12-19 21:41:33 <gmaxwell> I'd be interested in seeing the debug log of that if you were running with timestamps.
1432 2013-12-19 21:41:39 ValicekB has joined
1433 2013-12-19 21:41:46 <wizkid057> hmm
1434 2013-12-19 21:41:48 <wizkid057> maybe
1435 2013-12-19 21:41:52 denom has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1436 2013-12-19 21:42:29 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, again though are you running with -connect=127.0.0.1 and -listen=0 ?
1437 2013-12-19 21:42:38 <wizkid057> phantomcircuit: yep
1438 2013-12-19 21:42:40 <phantomcircuit> if peers push new blocks to you it stalls
1439 2013-12-19 21:42:54 <phantomcircuit> which will hopefully get fixed with headers first
1440 2013-12-19 21:42:56 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: debug log wiped itself when I rebooted the machine
1441 2013-12-19 21:43:24 patcon has joined
1442 2013-12-19 21:43:32 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, ssd or hdd?
1443 2013-12-19 21:43:38 <phantomcircuit> (it shouldn't make a huge difference)
1444 2013-12-19 21:43:46 <wizkid057> the machine i'm rebuilding right now is RAID10 HDD
1445 2013-12-19 21:43:47 <phantomcircuit> ssd raid 10
1446 2013-12-19 21:43:48 <phantomcircuit> lol
1447 2013-12-19 21:43:49 <phantomcircuit> weird
1448 2013-12-19 21:44:03 <phantomcircuit> INTEL SSDSA2CW120G3
1449 2013-12-19 21:44:31 <wizkid057> phantomcircuit: I dont trust any data storage device to not fail... I try to mirror everything somehow...
1450 2013-12-19 21:44:44 <phantomcircuit> 2013-12-19 21:37:07 SetBestChain: new best=0000000000000040d12c147dcd0bce73d6b5e93eb8093ead5f823da08cfabda9  height=250358  log2_work=71.046521  tx=21576537  date=2013-08-05 12:10:36 progress=0.348816
1451 2013-12-19 21:44:44 <phantomcircuit> 2013-12-19 21:11:46 SetBestChain: new best=00000000839a8e6886ab5951d76f411475428afc90947ee320161bbf18eb6048  height=1  log2_work=33.000022  tx=2  date=2009-01-09 02:54:25 progress=0.000000
1452 2013-12-19 21:44:51 <phantomcircuit> that's git master
1453 2013-12-19 21:45:12 <wizkid057> there changes that improve this since the last release?
1454 2013-12-19 21:45:17 <phantomcircuit> heh
1455 2013-12-19 21:45:26 <wizkid057> I'm not running git master
1456 2013-12-19 21:45:30 <wizkid057> just latest stable
1457 2013-12-19 21:45:33 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, if anything it should be 4% slower due to leveldb changes
1458 2013-12-19 21:46:06 <wizkid057> 2013-12-19 21:42:10 SetBestChain: new best=00000000000000964f9d2de2c764b7b035d4f22f65dedc0578086c4421c25b42  height=219393  log2_work=69.360998  tx=12141630  date=2013-02-03 12:30:33 progress=0.192710
1459 2013-12-19 21:46:09 <phantomcircuit> and that's with txindex=1
1460 2013-12-19 21:46:38 <phantomcircuit> maybe the i7 small block io performance isn't as good as the xeon?
1461 2013-12-19 21:46:50 <phantomcircuit> no it's better
1462 2013-12-19 21:46:54 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, no idea
1463 2013-12-19 21:46:59 <wizkid057> dunno, the other machine I referred to is dual hex-core xeon
1464 2013-12-19 21:47:00 <phantomcircuit> im running debian x64 also
1465 2013-12-19 21:47:07 <phantomcircuit> wait dual?
1466 2013-12-19 21:47:19 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, lock the process to a single cpu
1467 2013-12-19 21:47:31 <wizkid057> this machine isnt
1468 2013-12-19 21:47:38 <wizkid057> the one that took ~3 hours is
1469 2013-12-19 21:47:52 <phantomcircuit> weird
1470 2013-12-19 21:48:12 Krellan_ has joined
1471 2013-12-19 21:48:19 <wizkid057> 2013-12-19 21:43:48 Committing 6987026 changed transactions to coin database...
1472 2013-12-19 21:48:19 <phantomcircuit> took 26 minutes for me with txindex and a cold cache
1473 2013-12-19 21:48:29 * wizkid057 taps foot
1474 2013-12-19 21:48:30 <wizkid057> lol
1475 2013-12-19 21:48:36 otoburb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1476 2013-12-19 21:48:44 <phantomcircuit> let me try again with a larger dbcache
1477 2013-12-19 21:48:51 otoburb has joined
1478 2013-12-19 21:48:58 <wizkid057> i put dbcache at 2000 as gmaxwell suggested
1479 2013-12-19 21:49:15 otoburb has quit (Client Quit)
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1481 2013-12-19 21:49:27 <phantomcircuit> yeah im just interested to see if it makes a difference
1482 2013-12-19 21:49:58 <wizkid057> looks like its going about about 2000 blocks per minute
1483 2013-12-19 21:50:23 <wizkid057> which is faster than the last time I did this i suppose
1484 2013-12-19 21:50:28 <wizkid057> still going to take a while
1485 2013-12-19 21:51:01 [\\\]_f has joined
1486 2013-12-19 21:51:02 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, there's been some talk about putting a snapshot of the utxo into a merged chain right?
1487 2013-12-19 21:51:24 SwampTony has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1488 2013-12-19 21:51:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm. It'd be interesting to have an rpc that puts the node into a read-only state
1489 2013-12-19 21:51:43 debiantoruser has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1490 2013-12-19 21:51:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|To allow copying out of data cleanly
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1493 2013-12-19 21:52:24 <gmaxwell> Very little real progress because it was diverted onto an (IMO) flight of fancy related to adding additional by-address indexes to make certian kinds of semi-trusting clients cheaper (at the expense of increasing storage and validation costs for full nodes, and potentially encouraging address reuse).
1494 2013-12-19 21:52:46 <wizkid057> michagogo|cloud: I second this, or a way to just dump elsewhere similar to backupwallet's functionality
1495 2013-12-19 21:53:18 nOgAn0o has left ()
1496 2013-12-19 21:53:43 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, couldn't it be as simple as a merged mined chain which was just a hash of the utxo snapshot? (normalized so everybody would have identical results)
1497 2013-12-19 21:53:53 john5223 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1498 2013-12-19 21:54:07 <phantomcircuit> you could then pull it from like
1499 2013-12-19 21:54:25 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: no thats not helpful in several respects.
1500 2013-12-19 21:54:29 <phantomcircuit> 500 blocks before the current head (tail? the highest block)
1501 2013-12-19 21:54:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|phantomcircuit: tip
1502 2013-12-19 21:55:00 <phantomcircuit> michagogo|cloud, i avoid using tip because i giggle
1503 2013-12-19 21:55:04 <phantomcircuit> <-- mature
1504 2013-12-19 21:55:04 <gmaxwell> First, why would anyone make it honest in the merged mined chain— no incentive to not instead mine ones that had the uxto with all the coins owned by you.  Secondly if its just a hash of the seralized copy its very expensive to updat.e
1505 2013-12-19 21:55:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uh, why?
1506 2013-12-19 21:55:14 <phantomcircuit> no reason
1507 2013-12-19 21:55:23 debiantoruser has joined
1508 2013-12-19 21:55:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|…
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1510 2013-12-19 21:55:52 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, have it payout utxo coins
1511 2013-12-19 21:55:59 <phantomcircuit> horray a valid reason for altcoins
1512 2013-12-19 21:56:07 <phantomcircuit> (yes i know the incentives are screwed)
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1517 2013-12-19 21:58:09 <wizkid057> just use a DHT
1518 2013-12-19 21:58:13 <wizkid057> :D
1519 2013-12-19 21:58:17 <phantomcircuit> oh god
1520 2013-12-19 21:58:20 * phantomcircuit smacks wizkid057 
1521 2013-12-19 21:58:26 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: with an efficient update and not high amount of overhead it could be something added to the main chain via a soft fork and everthing is fine... though using it to initilize is a pretty big reduction in the security model, as it _potentially_ reduces the whole network to spv security and perhaps unhinges the incentives of miners... since with a sufficient effort you could give yourself a billionity coins.
1522 2013-12-19 21:58:51 <wizkid057> i have an awesome DHT quote from here somewhere...
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1524 2013-12-19 21:59:11 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, at which point you need a compact proof of fraud for the honest full/archiving nodes
1525 2013-12-19 21:59:18 <phantomcircuit> which isn't something anybody has come up with yet
1526 2013-12-19 21:59:34 <gmaxwell> well its easy to do a fraud proof once you have a committed utxo.
1527 2013-12-19 21:59:40 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1528 2013-12-19 21:59:45 <gmaxwell> but the software engineering to make it safe is not trivial.
1529 2013-12-19 22:00:28 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1530 2013-12-19 22:00:49 <wizkid057> <gmaxwell> Someday I'm going to get myself invited to some conference with the president, and while he's talking about some middle east conflict thing— I'm going to ask if they've considered using a DHT.
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1535 2013-12-19 22:03:11 <helo> :D
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1561 2013-12-19 22:22:30 <phantomcircuit> 2013-12-19 22:04:29 SetBestChain: new best=0000000000000040d12c147dcd0bce73d6b5e93eb8093ead5f823da08cfabda9  height=250358  log2_work=71.046521  tx=21576537  date=2013-08-05 12:10:36 progress=0.348784
1562 2013-12-19 22:22:31 <phantomcircuit> 2013-12-19 21:46:28 SetBestChain: new best=00000000839a8e6886ab5951d76f411475428afc90947ee320161bbf18eb6048  height=1  log2_work=33.000022  tx=2  date=2009-01-09 02:54:25 progress=0.000000
1563 2013-12-19 22:22:35 <phantomcircuit> dbcache=4096
1564 2013-12-19 22:22:49 <phantomcircuit> 18 minutes
1565 2013-12-19 22:22:51 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, ^
1566 2013-12-19 22:22:58 patcon_ has joined
1567 2013-12-19 22:23:04 <wizkid057> ....
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1573 2013-12-19 22:24:02 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, bitcoind doesn't like you
1574 2013-12-19 22:24:44 debiantoruser has joined
1575 2013-12-19 22:24:53 <wizkid057> :(
1576 2013-12-19 22:25:06 <wizkid057> 2013-12-19 22:21:13 SetBestChain: new best=0000000000000002893471cbcc43a3d0867a386e8ebf2b9ddb6690c622b87a45  height=257140  log2_work=71.805046  tx=23587138  date=2013-09-10 14:32:16 progress=0.515093
1577 2013-12-19 22:25:08 <wizkid057> still going
1578 2013-12-19 22:25:35 <wizkid057> oh, you're only at block 250000
1579 2013-12-19 22:25:37 <wizkid057> ish
1580 2013-12-19 22:26:30 hmmma has joined
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1582 2013-12-19 22:30:36 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, sure but i've done it twice now
1583 2013-12-19 22:30:37 <phantomcircuit> lol
1584 2013-12-19 22:30:58 <wizkid057> :(
1585 2013-12-19 22:31:11 <wizkid057> I still have ~16,000 blocks to go to catch up
1586 2013-12-19 22:32:26 realazthat has joined
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1589 2013-12-19 22:36:08 <maaku> <gmaxwell> but the software engineering to make it safe is not trivial. <-- ?
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1610 2013-12-19 22:55:23 <wyager> gmaxwell: We talked yesterday about the BIP to replace BIP 0038. I'm curious what you think about our recent discussion on the integrated date code. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=258678.40
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1617 2013-12-19 22:58:44 <gmaxwell> wyager: I agree with the thread, if you don't want to use the date, set it to 0.
1618 2013-12-19 22:59:18 <gmaxwell> wyager: dates with private keys are _very_ important for spv client performance. There is no real risk of the date being wrong, since you just round it down by a week or whatever when you scan.
1619 2013-12-19 22:59:26 pooler_ is now known as pooler
1620 2013-12-19 22:59:51 <gmaxwell> wyager: the date granularity there is pretty coarse too, so it doesn't reveal much, esp since the date may be long before the key was ever actually used.
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1623 2013-12-19 23:02:03 <wyager> What if your system has no clock? And, even worse: What if your system's clock is far ahead of time and you make a transaction with that wallet? Then, will the Bitcoin client just not even look at the first transactions?
1624 2013-12-19 23:02:20 <wyager> So the first transaction is before your wallet's "creation date"?
1625 2013-12-19 23:02:41 <wyager> It seems to me like this whole first-transaction lookup should be done server side, with a hash tree indexed by addresses or something
1626 2013-12-19 23:02:50 <gmaxwell> wyager: then you just set 0 if you have no clock.
1627 2013-12-19 23:03:02 <wyager> And what if you don't know? What if your clock is far ahead of time?
1628 2013-12-19 23:03:09 <wyager> The far ahead of time scenario is by far worse.
1629 2013-12-19 23:03:24 <wyager> It's a recipe for a whole mess of undefined behavior.
1630 2013-12-19 23:03:28 <gmaxwell> So? when it doesn't work you figure it out. What happens if your cannot correctly multiply by G without bitflips and you derrive the wrong public key?
1631 2013-12-19 23:03:42 <wyager> How would you figure it out?
1632 2013-12-19 23:03:51 <wyager> How would you even know it didn't work?
1633 2013-12-19 23:03:59 <wyager> It could fail totally silently
1634 2013-12-19 23:04:08 <wyager> Whereas the server keeping track of first transactions can't possibly fail
1635 2013-12-19 23:04:19 <gmaxwell> "the server"?
1636 2013-12-19 23:04:28 <wyager> For thin clients
1637 2013-12-19 23:04:28 <gmaxwell> okay, please go away and come back when you know something about bitcoin at all.
1638 2013-12-19 23:04:34 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1639 2013-12-19 23:04:34 <wyager> Lol
1640 2013-12-19 23:04:49 <wyager> I'm talking about reducing load on e.g. blockchain.info, which processes thousands of addresses per day
1641 2013-12-19 23:04:51 <gmaxwell> wyager: thin clients use the network, there is no server in the spv case either.
1642 2013-12-19 23:04:53 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1643 2013-12-19 23:05:01 <gmaxwell> wyager: this is not about blockchain.info.
1644 2013-12-19 23:05:20 patcon has joined
1645 2013-12-19 23:05:23 <wyager> Aren't they the ones most affected by blockchain rescan time?
1646 2013-12-19 23:05:31 <wyager> Them and those like them
1647 2013-12-19 23:05:37 <wyager> Electrum servers and stuff as well
1648 2013-12-19 23:06:41 <gmaxwell> wyager: No.
1649 2013-12-19 23:06:50 <gmaxwell> wyager: This is relevant for SPV clients, as I said above.
1650 2013-12-19 23:06:59 <gmaxwell> (also relevant for full nodes, for that matter)
1651 2013-12-19 23:07:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm. The rule for block timestamps is not more than 2 hours in the future, and not before the median of the last... 11 blocks, was it?
1652 2013-12-19 23:08:43 <gmaxwell> it must be > the median of the last 11. Not >=
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1656 2013-12-19 23:11:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm
1657 2013-12-19 23:11:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|How does mining software handle it if the current time is <= the median of the last 11?
1658 2013-12-19 23:12:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|For example, with testnet's 20-minute rule, I'd been thinking of it as "you can mine up to 6 diff 1 blocks in a row and then you need to let someone else get a block"
1659 2013-12-19 23:14:08 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: it just uses the minimum permitted in that case.
1660 2013-12-19 23:14:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But as soon as you actually do that on 6 blocks, whether that's 6 in a row or just 6 in a shortish period of time with a couple blocks from somewhere else, nobody can mine a block until the time you claimed hits
1661 2013-12-19 23:14:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah.
1662 2013-12-19 23:14:41 ghtdak has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1663 2013-12-19 23:14:43 bitteller has left ()
1664 2013-12-19 23:14:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is the timestamp in gbt?
1665 2013-12-19 23:15:14 <gmaxwell>     "mintime" : 1387491331,
1666 2013-12-19 23:15:16 <gmaxwell>     "curtime" : 1387494679,
1667 2013-12-19 23:15:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah
1668 2013-12-19 23:15:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wow, gbt took 20 seconds to return
1669 2013-12-19 23:16:01 Grouver has quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it)
1670 2013-12-19 23:17:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So if the median of the last 11 blocks is equal or later than the system clock, then "mintime">"curtime" and, say, bfgminer will mine the block with mintime?
1671 2013-12-19 23:18:01 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: right.
1672 2013-12-19 23:18:10 <gmaxwell> 20 seconds?! 0_o
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1674 2013-12-19 23:18:15 <gmaxwell> real    0m0.078s
1675 2013-12-19 23:18:21 <gmaxwell> ^ what it takes here.
1676 2013-12-19 23:18:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Usually it's around that fast for me
1677 2013-12-19 23:18:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|On testnet, though
1678 2013-12-19 23:19:07 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1679 2013-12-19 23:19:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|http://0bin.net/paste/a55RGWoHMC1tQpPY#9hvkKB05JNmaypxbqYn9C9W114i05d8LXk2BhOCRNqs=
1680 2013-12-19 23:19:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|okay, 18 seconds
1681 2013-12-19 23:19:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(this is in Bitcoin-Qt's console, ~35 connections, if it matters)
1682 2013-12-19 23:19:58 <gmaxwell> shouldn't matter. weird.
1683 2013-12-19 23:20:03 sassamo has joined
1684 2013-12-19 23:20:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Tried it again
1685 2013-12-19 23:21:08 debiantoruser has joined
1686 2013-12-19 23:21:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Felt like it took 2 seconds, but the timestamps are the same second
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1702 2013-12-19 23:37:14 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: finally finished after removing chainstate like you said, now its still stuck on 275877
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1705 2013-12-19 23:37:49 <gmaxwell> stuck as in invalid block or it's just finished rebuilding?
1706 2013-12-19 23:38:28 hemry has joined
1707 2013-12-19 23:38:32 <wizkid057> 2013-12-19 23:31:51 InvalidChainFound: Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
1708 2013-12-19 23:38:32 <wizkid057> 2013-12-19 23:31:51 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
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1711 2013-12-19 23:39:14 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: can you find the error before the first Invalid entry in the log?
1712 2013-12-19 23:39:22 <wizkid057> monent
1713 2013-12-19 23:39:25 <wizkid057> *moment
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1715 2013-12-19 23:40:47 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1716 2013-12-19 23:41:33 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=t9MV5LdN
1717 2013-12-19 23:42:35 ItS______ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1718 2013-12-19 23:42:54 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: uh, this doesn't appear to have rebuilt the chainstate.
1719 2013-12-19 23:43:04 hemry has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1720 2013-12-19 23:43:15 <gmaxwell> I mean it started a minute before the error.
1721 2013-12-19 23:43:30 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: I had it -connect=127.0.0.1
1722 2013-12-19 23:43:39 <wizkid057> restarted it when it go to the last block
1723 2013-12-19 23:43:40 <gmaxwell> oh I see you restarted and thats after the restart.
1724 2013-12-19 23:43:50 <gmaxwell> crap it's marked invalid in the index. Why do we save that.
1725 2013-12-19 23:44:02 <wizkid057> ...
1726 2013-12-19 23:44:18 <gmaxwell> Sorry dude. I gave you bad advice.
1727 2013-12-19 23:44:27 <wizkid057> i'll just shutdown another node and copy everything over
1728 2013-12-19 23:44:27 <wizkid057> heh
1729 2013-12-19 23:44:35 <gmaxwell> that'll be faster indeed.
1730 2013-12-19 23:44:41 <gmaxwell> (alternative: -reindex)
1731 2013-12-19 23:44:51 <wizkid057> that'll take another several hours
1732 2013-12-19 23:45:20 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1733 2013-12-19 23:45:23 * uiop did -reindex the other day to his dismay
1734 2013-12-19 23:45:27 <sipa> actually, if you copy 1) chainstate 2) blocks/index 3) blocks/*.dat, from a live node, it may work
1735 2013-12-19 23:45:30 <sipa> if you do it in that order
1736 2013-12-19 23:45:49 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1737 2013-12-19 23:45:59 <wizkid057> I think I have a snapshot from a couple of days ago
1738 2013-12-19 23:46:23 AndrewJackson_ has quit ()
1739 2013-12-19 23:46:25 <sipa> the chainstate may not be more recent than the block index, and the block index may not be more recent than the blocks
1740 2013-12-19 23:46:35 jtimon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1741 2013-12-19 23:46:55 <wizkid057> sipa: i'll give you a satoshi to make the rpc command: dumpeverythingineedtoclonethisnode
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1746 2013-12-19 23:48:12 <sipa> ha
1747 2013-12-19 23:48:17 <gmaxwell> a 'pausenode' that put everything in a consistent state for copying wouldn't be hard. perhaps a techsupport footgun when people call it and then don't turn it off. :P
1748 2013-12-19 23:48:37 ntio has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 26.0/20131205075310])
1749 2013-12-19 23:49:38 <wizkid057> on a side note, pigz is so damn fast on this dual hex core machine
1750 2013-12-19 23:50:05 <sipa> serializing the blockindex and chainstate into a file, in a single atomic operation, + then iterating over all blocks in that index with just one lock per block... would work
1751 2013-12-19 23:50:33 <gmaxwell> seems pretty specalized, and god knows we'd then get people torrenting those things.
1752 2013-12-19 23:50:39 <warren> gmaxwell: I sometimes hardlink copy the older block files along with this
1753 2013-12-19 23:50:39 <sipa> Yup.
1754 2013-12-19 23:51:15 <sipa> gmaxwell: we'd ask people some very private information when dumping, and use that info the generate an encryption key
1755 2013-12-19 23:51:31 <sipa> then they'll have to give all their private details to anyone who wants to use the dump !
1756 2013-12-19 23:51:42 <wizkid057> man, going to take 4 minutes to scp all this :(
1757 2013-12-19 23:51:49 <uiop> gmaxwell: if it was signed by a redundantly-distributed-enough key, wouldn't that be a-ok?
1758 2013-12-19 23:52:35 <sipa> if you're not *ultimately* trusting who is giving you the data
1759 2013-12-19 23:52:45 <uiop> people would take that and mirror it en-masse
1760 2013-12-19 23:52:57 <sipa> and you're not willing to do the effort of building/verifying it yourself
1761 2013-12-19 23:53:04 <sipa> you're much better off running an SPV node
1762 2013-12-19 23:53:16 <wizkid057> how long does a new node with no data take to build using just the p2p network? ie, newbie downloads and installs
1763 2013-12-19 23:53:24 <wizkid057> i havent done that for a long time
1764 2013-12-19 23:53:30 <uiop> wizkid057: hours
1765 2013-12-19 23:53:36 <sipa> in theory, an hour; in practice, ages
1766 2013-12-19 23:54:03 <wizkid057> it seems like where bitcoind decides to source blocks is poor
1767 2013-12-19 23:54:09 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1768 2013-12-19 23:54:13 <gmaxwell> uiop: no, ... as sipa says. Besides, people show up all the time with FUD claiming that satoshi has a blank check for a trillion bitcoins hidden in the ledgers state. The design of bitcoin makes it impossible, but if you're just trusting some file issues from some anonymous and not really trustworthy people— well look how often webwallets have robbed all their users. Bitcoin has better security than that.
1769 2013-12-19 23:54:22 <sipa> wizkid057: absolutely, well known problem
1770 2013-12-19 23:55:06 <uiop> sipa: (just had to google SPV) yeah, although it'd be nice to have all the cakes and eat them too
1771 2013-12-19 23:55:09 <wizkid057> sipa: I volunteer you to fix it :P
1772 2013-12-19 23:55:28 <sipa> uiop: yes, unicorns are nice
1773 2013-12-19 23:55:45 <sipa> wizkid057: it's pretty much they only thing i've been working on the past months (not that i've spent much time overall...)
1774 2013-12-19 23:56:30 <uiop> gmaxwell: if some trusted party with well-known public key signed the (highly compressed and lean) blockchain image though, wouldn't that count as trustworthy?
1775 2013-12-19 23:56:37 <wizkid057> chainstate/blocks/index work with all 0.8.x versions right?
1776 2013-12-19 23:56:47 <wizkid057> specifically 0.8.5 and 0.8.6
1777 2013-12-19 23:57:03 <sipa> they're compatible between all 0.8.x versions
1778 2013-12-19 23:57:05 <uiop> gmaxwell: (they'd juts need some integrated way to verify the signature upon import of the bulk image into a client, etc)
1779 2013-12-19 23:57:22 <gmaxwell> uiop: NO. Holy crap. thats exactly the kind of trust model which has caused tens of thousands of bitcoins to be robbed from people time and time again. It's a zillion times _less_ trustworthy than the centeral banking fiat system that bitcoin compeats with.
1780 2013-12-19 23:58:05 <sipa> bitcoin is about not _needing_ to trust _anyone_
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1782 2013-12-19 23:58:23 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1783 2013-12-19 23:58:24 <sipa> if you actually do trust someone enough (for example, yourself) to give you valid data, you can use it
1784 2013-12-19 23:58:31 <sipa> but let's not institutionalize it
1785 2013-12-19 23:58:49 <sipa> bitcoin's decentralization relies on it being easy to validate everything yourself
1786 2013-12-19 23:58:54 rdymac has joined
1787 2013-12-19 23:59:07 <gmaxwell> uiop: in bitcoin there is no trusted party. If you can trust the instutions of democratic societies, stuffed with well meaning economists and the captains of industry to not dork with your currency, you sure as hell can't trust some internet muckymuck. Plus, only an idiot would accept that key— if people sill used bitcoin with such a lame security model that persons life would be at risk.
1788 2013-12-19 23:59:17 <sipa> if it becomes so hard that people rely on copying built databases instead, that model has failed
1789 2013-12-19 23:59:17 vigilyn has joined
1790 2013-12-19 23:59:20 <paulo_> how many GBs is the blockchain now?
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1792 2013-12-19 23:59:47 <uiop> gmaxwell: hehe. ok, i see where you're coming from, but hours.. is.. a.. long.. time.. and it'll only get longer. it'll eventually get to the point where it becomes infeasible to download the whole blockchain in under 5 days and without terabytes galore. i feel like exactly a centralized single-point of failure (the blockchain providers of the future) will eventually become inevitable
1793 2013-12-19 23:59:49 <gmaxwell> paulo_: on the order of 15gbytes or so.
1794 2013-12-19 23:59:59 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: I think thats with the index