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  34 2013-12-22 00:55:27 <saivann> In case you want to comment, I plan to merge this pull req tomorrow: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/286
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  36 2013-12-22 00:55:32 <saivann> This pull req temporarily add Google Analytics to bitcoin.org (and will be reverted a week later), so we can have a better estimation of the traffic in order to choose and setup a dedicated server.
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  41 2013-12-22 01:01:01 <gmaxwell> saivann: fwiw, I'd asked luke about his comment and got a "I wasn't NACKing, just asking. :p"
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  46 2013-12-22 01:05:26 <saivann> gmaxwell: thanks
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  66 2013-12-22 01:25:59 <jacob___> hey guys
  67 2013-12-22 01:26:40 <jacob___> in code I see that ssl api key generation is used to generate wallet keys
  68 2013-12-22 01:27:22 <jacob___> how many keys are out there in the blockchain as of this moment?
  69 2013-12-22 01:27:31 <jacob___> what is the chance of collisions?
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  73 2013-12-22 01:29:15 <upb> ssl api?!
  74 2013-12-22 01:30:09 <jacob___> yup
  75 2013-12-22 01:30:29 <jacob___> int EC_KEY_generate_key(EC_KEY *key);
  76 2013-12-22 01:30:51 <jacob___> how does it get its randomness?
  77 2013-12-22 01:32:07 <gmaxwell> jacob___: this channel is for the active development and operation of the bitcoin network and software, if you'd like to ask in #bitcoin I'd be glad to answer you there.
  78 2013-12-22 01:32:30 <jacob___> sure np
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 131 2013-12-22 02:57:58 <BlueMatt> petertodd: I dont think anyone has ever given the bloom filter stuff any serious thought (I hadnt until I spent ~30 minutes last night staring at it, and realized the spec is fairly broken to begin with)
 132 2013-12-22 02:58:04 <BlueMatt> petertodd: so, no, dont think there's a writeup
 133 2013-12-22 02:59:03 <BlueMatt> petertodd: there are also some subtleties to implementing them right (https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/detail?id=502 and https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/detail?id=504 though those are partially due to some recent changes that made the api more generic and introduced some bugs)
 134 2013-12-22 02:59:32 <BlueMatt> petertodd: also, the false positive set for a bloom filter does stay constant, given you keep a constant tweak value, which is fairly reasonable
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 139 2013-12-22 03:01:10 <BlueMatt> petertodd: I suppose all of that's my fault since I wrote the original spec/implementation when I had like a free few days and then didnt give it any serious thought as I tweaked it to make it work practically...which quite broke it
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 143 2013-12-22 03:04:03 <CodeShark> so much complexity in client logic to cope with scalability issues
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 148 2013-12-22 03:06:30 <CodeShark> makes me hope we'll ultimately find a much better solution for prunability
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 154 2013-12-22 03:13:30 <CodeShark> perhaps a CAS which can provide a set of transactions for a filter, then a way of obtaining minimal proofs from nodes that they are part of the main chain
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 156 2013-12-22 03:13:57 <CodeShark> without having to download individual block structures at all
 157 2013-12-22 03:15:07 <CodeShark> combining the proof for multiple transactions without the need to download a chain of merkle blocks
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 159 2013-12-22 03:15:55 <CodeShark> also, by introducing an ordering rule to the transactions in a block, we could provide proofs of absence of transactions
 160 2013-12-22 03:16:57 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: they're dependency ordered now. but proving a transaction is not in a single block is not terrible interesting usually.
 161 2013-12-22 03:17:34 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: it makes withholding attacks more difficult
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 163 2013-12-22 03:18:15 <CodeShark> although in practice, it is difficult to pull them off unless you control the wire to the device
 164 2013-12-22 03:19:29 <gmaxwell> its the txout you want to prove presence/absense of there.
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 166 2013-12-22 03:20:22 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: true - the CAS should be possible to query by output
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 168 2013-12-22 03:22:01 <CodeShark> it would be interesting to build a CAS funded by bitcoin :)
 169 2013-12-22 03:22:15 <CodeShark> you get compensated for the resources you provide to the network
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 172 2013-12-22 03:27:12 <CodeShark> I suppose even being able to download multiple merkle blocks in a single network roundtrip could significantly speed up client sync times
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 175 2013-12-22 03:30:57 <CodeShark> and rather than sending the individual transactions as separate messages, they could be incorporated into the same merkle block message
 176 2013-12-22 03:31:37 <BlueMatt> you can do like 500 blocks per network roundtrip (well, 500 merkle blocks in parallel)
 177 2013-12-22 03:31:54 <BlueMatt> and, meh, as long as they are sent back-to-back the cost of the separate messages isnt that bad
 178 2013-12-22 03:32:08 <BlueMatt> the real cost is the bloom filter design just wasnt that good
 179 2013-12-22 03:32:26 <BlueMatt> (not to say there's an obvious solution, but its not ideal as it is today)
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 187 2013-12-22 03:40:29 <CodeShark> well, assuming the client always does a headers-only sync first, it is wasteful for a filtering node to provide trivial merkle blocks
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 191 2013-12-22 03:41:33 <CodeShark> say instead the client provided a height range, or a starting timestamp
 192 2013-12-22 03:41:55 <CodeShark> the filtering peer could simply omit the trivial merkle blocks
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 196 2013-12-22 03:44:24 <CodeShark> moreover, if the client already has the block headers, the merkle block messages would only need to contain the hash lists
 197 2013-12-22 03:44:32 <CodeShark> and flags field
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 202 2013-12-22 03:46:48 <CodeShark> and total transactions, I suppose, to compute the depth
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 205 2013-12-22 03:48:13 <CodeShark> we could eliminate up to 80 bits per nontrivial merkle block, and eliminate trivial merkle blocks entirely
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 207 2013-12-22 03:50:43 <CodeShark> the headers-only sync can be done in parallel, without giving up any privacy whatsoever
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 209 2013-12-22 03:51:45 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: why is the client doing a headers-first sync for merkle blocks? the advantage of headers-first is largely lost if you're only downloading headers and a few extra txn per block
 210 2013-12-22 03:56:15 <CodeShark> BlueMatt: headers-first sync means you can add 2000 headers per network roundtrip with no filtering overhead
 211 2013-12-22 03:56:46 <CodeShark> moreover, once you have a local block tree you can share it between multiple devices or multiple applications
 212 2013-12-22 03:57:22 <BlueMatt> meh, you really dont gain much there
 213 2013-12-22 03:57:44 <CodeShark> you do if you're running, say, 10 different apps that all use the service
 214 2013-12-22 03:57:49 <BlueMatt> you gain some number of headers per network roundtrip (not many), and the filtering overhead isnt much (locally, its more remote, but who cares)
 215 2013-12-22 03:58:16 <BlueMatt> realistically the difference between syncing with a fairly low-fp-rate bloom filter and doing just headers-only isnt much
 216 2013-12-22 03:58:17 <CodeShark> in any case, I like the idea of separating proof-of-work validation from proofs of tx inclusion in blocks
 217 2013-12-22 03:58:29 <BlueMatt> its already separate...
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 219 2013-12-22 04:00:31 <CodeShark> it's separate logically - but the two are intertwined in merkle block structures
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 221 2013-12-22 04:02:04 <CodeShark> say you already have a local copy of the block tree - you import a set of keys in a wallet, the wallet needs to now go fetch proofs of output existence and inclusion in blocks
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 223 2013-12-22 04:02:32 <CodeShark> perhaps there are only a handful of blocks that are relevant at all
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 225 2013-12-22 04:06:55 <BlueMatt> true, though key imports of old keys are rare enough...
 226 2013-12-22 04:07:34 <BlueMatt> the two arent intertwined at all, except that the proof of tx inclusion has to point to a specific block
 227 2013-12-22 04:07:48 <BlueMatt> they happen to be in the same message because that makes it easy
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 230 2013-12-22 04:11:27 <CodeShark> networking issues aside, the block tree is a universally relevant structure for all nodes while merkle blocks are just specific proofs of inclusions of specific transactions
 231 2013-12-22 04:12:30 <BlueMatt> true, I just dont see the advantage in separating the tiny additional data and downloading it separately, aside from the uncommon case where you only need the merkle tree inclusion proofs
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 240 2013-12-22 04:21:25 <CodeShark> I guess what I'm trying to say is that regardless of how we perform filtering, the block header tree structure must be checked. But the way we prove inclusion of transactions/outputs in the block chain affords some creativity
 241 2013-12-22 04:21:55 <BlueMatt> true, and it should be tweaked as there are clearly better ways of doing it
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 387 2013-12-22 07:41:00 stapler has joined
 388 2013-12-22 07:41:39 <stapler> quick question for you guys
 389 2013-12-22 07:41:44 <stapler> how does the p2p work in bitcoin
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 392 2013-12-22 07:50:27 <CodeShark> stapler: it might help if you make your question more specific
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 394 2013-12-22 07:51:02 <CodeShark> if it's a very broad, basic question I would recommend asking in #bitcoin rather than #bitcoin-dev
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 397 2013-12-22 07:55:13 <RoboTeddy> if disk and bandwidth were nearly free, and there was no block size limit, would the market transaction fee be near 0?
 398 2013-12-22 07:55:16 Gabralkhan has joined
 399 2013-12-22 07:55:24 <RoboTeddy> (also if there's a better venue for that question, just yell at me)
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 401 2013-12-22 07:56:05 <CodeShark> RoboTeddy: there's also the computational cost of validating and relaying the transaction
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 403 2013-12-22 07:57:15 <RoboTeddy> CodeShark: good point. but if moore's law keeps up, so to speak, those things might become cheap more quickly than the amount of important transactional data rises
 404 2013-12-22 07:57:17 erans has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 405 2013-12-22 07:58:33 <RoboTeddy> long-term, why would we expect tx fees to be high enough to properly secure the network? could we keep an artificial block size limit in place to create competition for space (and thus tx fees?)
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 408 2013-12-22 08:01:50 <theboos> Ah, I think I understand what you're getting at. Mining will be self balancing in that difficulty rises and falls to match hashrate, but your concern is that difficulty and hashrate will not increase as quickly as hardware improves and block reward falls?
 409 2013-12-22 08:04:05 <theboos> so that though we might reach 1 billion petahashes/s (I've lost track of the SI prefixes above that :P) in a few tens of years, the actual cost of deploying another billion petahashes/s might be within the ability of nefarious agencies in the longer term?
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 411 2013-12-22 08:07:30 <CodeShark> the bigger threat is if there's a sudden collapse in mining power on the network because the block rewards are too low
 412 2013-12-22 08:07:51 <CodeShark> that could quickly kill the coin completely
 413 2013-12-22 08:10:58 <CodeShark> perhaps eventually blockchain-based currencies will evolve to a model where the decentralized pow-based timestamping mechanism will be decoupled from the individual assets and scripts securing them
 414 2013-12-22 08:11:24 <CodeShark> then perhaps a few major block chains can provide security for multiple coins
 415 2013-12-22 08:11:27 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 416 2013-12-22 08:12:20 <CodeShark> in other words, mining could become essentially agnostic to transaction payload
 417 2013-12-22 08:12:44 <CodeShark> other than fees
 418 2013-12-22 08:13:08 <CodeShark> blockchains would become timestamping services
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 420 2013-12-22 08:13:33 <theboos> I like that idea; how would fees be paid for including data in the blockchain?
 421 2013-12-22 08:14:01 <theboos> I like Bitcoin's "miners get the leftovers" model
 422 2013-12-22 08:14:36 <CodeShark> problem with that model is that the payload of the data is no longer opaque to the miner
 423 2013-12-22 08:14:46 <CodeShark> so we cannot decouple the two
 424 2013-12-22 08:15:12 <CodeShark> but yeah, we'd need to come up with a convention for paying fees for inclusion
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 428 2013-12-22 08:18:02 <CodeShark> it's not exactly trivial. I guess namecoin has already started moving in this direction, somewhat
 429 2013-12-22 08:18:24 <theboos> I was thinking that mining pools could deal directly with clients
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 431 2013-12-22 08:19:16 <CodeShark> yeah
 432 2013-12-22 08:19:23 <theboos> e.g. you'd pay a mining pool in any currency they accept in exchange for including your data in the blockchain, secured by their hashing power
 433 2013-12-22 08:19:31 <CodeShark> right
 434 2013-12-22 08:19:54 <theboos> however that does not adequately compensate the rest of the network for storing that arbitrary data
 435 2013-12-22 08:19:54 Gabralkhan has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 436 2013-12-22 08:21:06 <theboos> I run a full node "for free" because 15 GB and negligible bandwidth is reasonable, but I would not want to store potentially terabytes or more of other data that others include in blocks
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 439 2013-12-22 08:21:34 <CodeShark> that leads me to another idea I've been thinking about - creating a decentralized CAS, encouraging people to provide resources by compensating them in cryptocurrencies
 440 2013-12-22 08:22:20 <theboos> CAS? central auth service?
 441 2013-12-22 08:22:24 <CodeShark> effectively decoupling the storage costs of the network from the mining costs
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 443 2013-12-22 08:22:31 <CodeShark> content-addressable storage
 444 2013-12-22 08:22:56 <theboos> ahh
 445 2013-12-22 08:23:00 <theboos> that is interesting
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 450 2013-12-22 08:26:16 <theboos> that would have to be combined with some proof-of-knowledge scheme
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 452 2013-12-22 08:26:43 <CodeShark> yes - you could do random samplings
 453 2013-12-22 08:26:52 <CodeShark> similar to how mining shares work
 454 2013-12-22 08:27:03 <CodeShark> or analogous, I should say
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 457 2013-12-22 08:28:58 <CodeShark> using cryptographic hash functions as identifiers, it's then simple to verify whether a node stored the given data and returned it uncorrupted
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 460 2013-12-22 08:30:14 <CodeShark> don't have all the details worked out - but I'm fairly sure a scheme could be constructed
 461 2013-12-22 08:30:31 <CodeShark> you'd need to make sure the node can't just query other nodes for that data when asked
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 465 2013-12-22 08:33:44 <CodeShark> or to make it sufficiently expensive so that they can't game it like that
 466 2013-12-22 08:34:06 <theboos> the p2p nature of bitcoin means that there is (nearly) no way to prove that a given IP initiated a transaction, and there is absolutely no way to associate an IP with a fresh address. Is a similar property desirable with distributed storage?
 467 2013-12-22 08:34:33 <CodeShark> we'd want each node to have a node identity key
 468 2013-12-22 08:34:44 <CodeShark> this would be good to have in bitcoin, too :)
 469 2013-12-22 08:35:30 <CodeShark> IP addresses are great for routing messages - but we also need to be able to sign messages to prove their origin
 470 2013-12-22 08:35:32 <CodeShark> :)
 471 2013-12-22 08:36:55 <theboos> because I was thinking that if anonymity/privacy is not so much of a concern, a node could authenticate someone seeking to download their own content, so a node would not be able to query other nodes for data it did not originate
 472 2013-12-22 08:37:32 <CodeShark> the peer querying the data could transmit a public key and have the data encrypted, then whoever answers the query first gets a reward
 473 2013-12-22 08:37:59 <CodeShark> by encrypting using the recipient's public key, it ensures that nobody between the sender and recipient can insert itself
 474 2013-12-22 08:38:50 <CodeShark> and you could also add authentication like you say for private data, theboos
 475 2013-12-22 08:39:16 <CodeShark> or at least encryption
 476 2013-12-22 08:40:11 <CodeShark> if we could work out a way to make these exchanges atomic
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 478 2013-12-22 08:40:27 <CodeShark> and hide the payload entirely from those verifying the atomicity
 479 2013-12-22 08:42:41 <CodeShark> I guess this sorta leads to a kind of escrow model
 480 2013-12-22 08:43:05 <CodeShark> dunno - lol…too tired to think about this stuff
 481 2013-12-22 08:43:42 <theboos> going to have to think this over, heh. I had not thought of using the blockchain to handle distributed storage of things other than the blockchain
 482 2013-12-22 08:44:05 <CodeShark> well, this would be a different kind of structure than a block chain
 483 2013-12-22 08:44:16 <theboos> but it seems that would be possible
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 485 2013-12-22 08:44:27 <CodeShark> the way I see it, block chains serve timestamping purposes - we need another kind of structure to serve spacestamping purposes :p
 486 2013-12-22 08:45:27 <CodeShark> decentralized spacestamping :)
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 488 2013-12-22 08:46:14 <theboos> I think it would have to be more closely tied to the blockchain. A user would need to pay nodes on an ongoing basis for storing their data (microtransactions!), and this payment could be tied to the verification of storage somehow
 489 2013-12-22 08:46:31 Raziel has joined
 490 2013-12-22 08:46:32 <theboos> If a user paid only to upload data, there is no incentive for nodes to keep it around
 491 2013-12-22 08:46:37 agnostic98 has joined
 492 2013-12-22 08:46:46 <CodeShark> yes, indeed - the two structures would need to work in tandem
 493 2013-12-22 08:47:10 <theboos> if a user paid only to retrieve data, there is nothing stopping a user from uploading /dev/random with no intention of downloading in the future
 494 2013-12-22 08:47:32 <CodeShark> perhaps a rental model also makes sense - where you package the data along with some coins, which gradually are transferred to whoever stores it. once the coins run out, the data is deleted
 495 2013-12-22 08:48:17 <theboos> sounds like a job for convoluted transaction scripts
 496 2013-12-22 08:48:42 <CodeShark> these use cases could probably be abstracted as language primitives
 497 2013-12-22 08:49:06 <CodeShark> although yeah, I suppose having the flexibility of a customizable script might make sense
 498 2013-12-22 08:49:26 <theboos> I meant the existing disabled bitcoin script functionality
 499 2013-12-22 08:49:52 <CodeShark> I'd rather dump that script and come up with something better while we're at it :)
 500 2013-12-22 08:50:30 <theboos> something along the lines of "this transaction can be spent on block number 345678 by anyone who can provide something that hashes to NNNNNNNNN..."
 501 2013-12-22 08:50:41 <CodeShark> we need a script that can reference data external to just a transaction input and output
 502 2013-12-22 08:51:23 <theboos> and metadata along the lines of "hint! data[2345:3567] ++ data[8000:8010] hashes to the above value"
 503 2013-12-22 08:51:39 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 504 2013-12-22 08:51:41 <CodeShark> yeah
 505 2013-12-22 08:51:45 <CodeShark> exactly
 506 2013-12-22 08:52:05 <theboos> the issue with such a construction is that a node would be able to precalculate only the data needed to spend those coins, and throw the rest of the file away
 507 2013-12-22 08:52:19 <theboos> since all of the transactions would be public ahead of time
 508 2013-12-22 08:52:21 <CodeShark> you could throw nondeterminism into the mix
 509 2013-12-22 08:53:09 <CodeShark> i.e. require an HMAC using a key that only becomes available later on and is derived from a bunch of unpredictable (but easy to verify) factors
 510 2013-12-22 08:53:35 <CodeShark> hmm
 511 2013-12-22 08:53:47 <theboos> nondeterminism wouldn't be necessary if you could ensure that the key would only become available later
 512 2013-12-22 08:54:24 <theboos> as you could simply encrypt the metadata hints for a given block number with a key that only becomes available the block before
 513 2013-12-22 08:54:38 <CodeShark> right
 514 2013-12-22 08:55:02 <theboos> but I can't think of a way to do timed encryption with the blockchain
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 516 2013-12-22 08:58:55 <CodeShark> http://www.gwern.net/Self-decrypting%20files
 517 2013-12-22 08:58:57 <CodeShark> lol
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 519 2013-12-22 08:59:37 <theboos> in any case, how does a node know that the data block they've been given includes the promised transactions? that is, a malicious user might throw terabytes of data into the system, and nodes might accept it
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 521 2013-12-22 09:00:12 <CodeShark> using "weak key" decryption - could be used for proof of work, too :)
 522 2013-12-22 09:00:37 <theboos> but the transactions it includes cannot be spent with the data - the hashes of the provided ranges do not match the transaction script
 523 2013-12-22 09:01:00 <theboos> the logical response from a node would be to throw away the file if it can't continue getting coins out of it
 524 2013-12-22 09:01:08 <theboos> but then it's wasted a lot of bandwidth accepting the file
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 526 2013-12-22 09:01:49 <theboos> that was my first idea too, but consider that that gives nodes an incentive to throw computational power at a file so they can throw it away :P
 527 2013-12-22 09:03:49 <theboos> also, it gives very weak guarantees on storage duration, whereas tying the transactions to the blockchain might allow users to upload files to be stored for a duration of "10000 blocks"
 528 2013-12-22 09:04:21 <theboos> while not a precise duration, estimates are unlikely to be more than 50% off
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 531 2013-12-22 09:06:04 <CodeShark> perhaps the difficulty could be adjusted upwards by paying partial rewards for partial breaks and allowing the person who created the file to up the difficulty
 532 2013-12-22 09:06:15 <CodeShark> if too many partial breaks are happening
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 535 2013-12-22 09:09:12 <CodeShark> hmm - would knowledge of the decryption key even be necessary to encrypt data with a predetermined difficulty?
 536 2013-12-22 09:09:42 <CodeShark> or nvm :p
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 540 2013-12-22 09:11:35 <CodeShark> hmm
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 551 2013-12-22 09:21:36 <theboos> I'm reading about the lock_time field of transactions
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 553 2013-12-22 09:23:02 <theboos> I don't understand how that field is secured - that is, what is to stop a node from altering the lock_time field and passing the new transaction along
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 555 2013-12-22 09:23:49 <CodeShark> it's signed, no?
 556 2013-12-22 09:24:11 <CodeShark> just like all other parts of the transaction except for input scripts
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 559 2013-12-22 09:25:42 <theboos> is it signed then? I couldn't find that
 560 2013-12-22 09:26:08 <CodeShark> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIG
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 564 2013-12-22 09:32:10 <theboos> if I'm interpreting https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#tx correctly, lock_time is not within the scope of the signature?
 565 2013-12-22 09:32:49 <CodeShark> when signing, only the TxIn datastructures are modified
 566 2013-12-22 09:32:55 <CodeShark> the rest of the transaction is left in place
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 571 2013-12-22 09:33:56 <CodeShark> outputs might also be blanked for hashtypes other than SIGHASH_ALL
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 573 2013-12-22 09:36:08 <maaku> theboos: it is signed
 574 2013-12-22 09:37:45 <theboos> it's late enough that I will take your word for it, heh
 575 2013-12-22 09:38:16 <theboos> night all
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 583 2013-12-22 09:47:55 <Intelftw> How do I calculate transaction hash? Is it the hash of serialized transaction?
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 586 2013-12-22 09:50:33 <CodeShark> yes
 587 2013-12-22 09:50:41 <CodeShark> sha256(sha256(serialized tx))
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 589 2013-12-22 09:51:11 <Intelftw> hm, I tried double hashing transaction data from getblocktemplate but they didn't match
 590 2013-12-22 09:51:39 <CodeShark> make sure you've got the endianness correct and that you're hashing binary data rather than ASCII
 591 2013-12-22 09:52:22 <Intelftw> ah it's hash of binary data, got it
 592 2013-12-22 09:52:22 <Intelftw> thanks
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 707 2013-12-22 12:17:26 <kapiteined> Hi, i found a small bug in the bitcoinclient (v0.8.5-beta), what is the best place to file a bug report?
 708 2013-12-22 12:17:55 <Luke-Jr> kapiteined: first you should try reproducing the bug with a current version
 709 2013-12-22 12:18:34 <kapiteined> ah, v0.8.5-beta is old already? let me check the latest and greatest
 710 2013-12-22 12:18:34 <Luke-Jr> for bugs that affect the latest release, GitHub is usually the place
 711 2013-12-22 12:18:35 <sipa> and search the bug tracker https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
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 715 2013-12-22 12:25:46 <kapiteined> yes, bug is still present in v0.8.6-beta, so i will file it at github
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 718 2013-12-22 12:28:57 * zophy hands kapiteined 9 nano seonds
 719 2013-12-22 12:29:47 <zophy> do those usb asics really do hundreds of mega hash/sec ?
 720 2013-12-22 12:32:56 <SomeoneWeird> yes, but that's offtopic here.
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 722 2013-12-22 12:37:35 <kapiteined> ok, filed under:  Issue #3455
 723 2013-12-22 12:38:09 <kapiteined> thanks!
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 725 2013-12-22 12:39:15 <Intelftw> Why is TxOut value int64 but not uint64 ?
 726 2013-12-22 12:40:03 <sipa> there is no difference
 727 2013-12-22 12:40:29 <sipa> as it's a number between 0 and 21*10^14, which exists in both
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 729 2013-12-22 12:41:54 <sipa> (and they have the same representation)
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 732 2013-12-22 12:44:21 <Intelftw> so it's serialized as uint32 without sign bit?
 733 2013-12-22 12:44:28 <Intelftw> 64*
 734 2013-12-22 12:44:38 <sipa> it's two's complement
 735 2013-12-22 12:44:42 <sipa> it does not have a sign bit
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 746 2013-12-22 12:58:57 <Varan2> Does anyone know where I can find a implementation of SNARKS for C (http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/507.pdf)? or something similar.
 747 2013-12-22 12:59:36 <Varan2> I cannot find any implementation of zero knowledge proofs
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 771 2013-12-22 13:29:31 <phantomcircuit> Intelftw, and the code is full of checks for negative values
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 774 2013-12-22 13:33:09 <tholenst> Varam2: I would assume that once the code is ready, they publish it here: http://www.scipr-lab.org/
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 871 2013-12-22 16:16:31 <jacob___> hello
 872 2013-12-22 16:16:37 <jacob___> i am looking at ECDSA,.., i studied it and look at the implementation in bitcoin with use of openSSL,
 873 2013-12-22 16:16:41 <jacob___> I have a hard time finding how the emphemeral is generated, i dont see it
 874 2013-12-22 16:17:01 <jacob___> jgarzik, i am actually looking at your code in wallet.c (github picocoin)
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 878 2013-12-22 16:19:56 <sipa> jacob___: it's all inside openssl
 879 2013-12-22 16:20:39 <jacob___> hold on sipa))
 880 2013-12-22 16:20:39 <sipa> you just give the hash to sign and the key to openssl, and get a signature back
 881 2013-12-22 16:20:43 <jacob___> i see after initialisation of domain parameters
 882 2013-12-22 16:20:46 <jacob___> key->k = EC_KEY_new_by_curve_name(NID_secp256k1);
 883 2013-12-22 16:20:49 <jacob___> i see this call
 884 2013-12-22 16:20:51 <jacob___> EC_KEY_generate_key(key->k)
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 886 2013-12-22 16:21:02 <sipa> that's creating a new key
 887 2013-12-22 16:21:06 <jacob___> this is just choosing parameter 'd' the provate key right
 888 2013-12-22 16:21:14 <sipa> d?
 889 2013-12-22 16:21:17 <jacob___> not d*A (where A is g)
 890 2013-12-22 16:21:32 <jacob___> d= private key exponent
 891 2013-12-22 16:21:37 <sipa> an EC_KEY is both private and public key
 892 2013-12-22 16:21:45 <sipa> so it holds both d and d*A
 893 2013-12-22 16:22:05 <jacob___> ok
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 896 2013-12-22 16:22:47 <jacob___> i need to look at internal structure of EC_KEY
 897 2013-12-22 16:22:50 <sipa> why?
 898 2013-12-22 16:23:00 <sipa> it's opaque
 899 2013-12-22 16:23:05 <jacob___> ok
 900 2013-12-22 16:23:33 <jacob___> so one extracts data from this opaque structure through functions then
 901 2013-12-22 16:23:38 <sipa> no
 902 2013-12-22 16:23:40 <jacob___> makes sense
 903 2013-12-22 16:23:57 <sipa> well, you call functions to convert it to a serialized data type (for private or public keys)
 904 2013-12-22 16:23:59 <jacob___> ok, lets say i want to know the exponent d, how do i get this info
 905 2013-12-22 16:24:14 <sipa> you typically don't
 906 2013-12-22 16:24:21 <sipa> you ask for the private key in a byte array
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 908 2013-12-22 16:24:45 <jacob___> sipa, isnt that the same thing
 909 2013-12-22 16:24:48 <jacob___> ?
 910 2013-12-22 16:25:15 <sipa> the interpretation is different
 911 2013-12-22 16:25:22 <jacob___> i want the private key (d) in a uint8_t array
 912 2013-12-22 16:25:42 <sipa> if you know how that private key is encoded, sure you can interpret it
 913 2013-12-22 16:25:50 <sipa> but it's not really intended to work that way
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 915 2013-12-22 16:25:59 <sipa> you just serialize it, and give it back to openssl
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 917 2013-12-22 16:26:25 <jacob___> well i dont care about the interface, i just would like to know its value
 918 2013-12-22 16:26:28 <sipa> ok
 919 2013-12-22 16:26:46 <sipa> i have a more low-level implementation of just ecdsa for secp256k1
 920 2013-12-22 16:27:18 <jacob___> yes i know you made one, but right now i just want to understand jgarziks code, maybe later i will replace it with yours
 921 2013-12-22 16:27:19 <sipa> for openssl, you can use some tricks to get the private key directly as a bignum
 922 2013-12-22 16:27:26 <jacob___> aha)))
 923 2013-12-22 16:27:35 <sipa> you're confusing things
 924 2013-12-22 16:27:43 <sipa> jgarzik interfaces with openssl
 925 2013-12-22 16:27:49 <sipa> it doesn't implement ecdsa itself
 926 2013-12-22 16:28:00 <jacob___> i know, i am looking at his code
 927 2013-12-22 16:28:18 <jacob___> i said "..maybe later i will replace it.."
 928 2013-12-22 16:28:20 <sipa> you can't replace that by "my code"
 929 2013-12-22 16:28:27 <jacob___> oh why not?
 930 2013-12-22 16:28:35 <sipa> you can replace openssl by my code
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 932 2013-12-22 16:28:58 <sipa> but you're just looking at the glue code to turn it into a bitcoin wallet
 933 2013-12-22 16:29:20 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 934 2013-12-22 16:29:40 <jacob___> of course you use different interface
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 936 2013-12-22 16:30:00 <jacob___> i dont see any bignum in your code, etc,.., but conceptually cannot be different
 937 2013-12-22 16:30:12 <sipa> you're really confusing things
 938 2013-12-22 16:30:25 <sipa> there are two libraries (well, more) that implement ecdsa/secp256k1, openssl and my library
 939 2013-12-22 16:30:26 <jacob___> or you are saying it is impossible to convert jgarzik code
 940 2013-12-22 16:30:35 <jacob___> ok tell me
 941 2013-12-22 16:30:57 <sipa> i don't know what jeff's code does, but you can't replace it with mine... as it's just an interface
 942 2013-12-22 16:31:06 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 943 2013-12-22 16:31:21 <sipa> it's like saying i'm going to replace internet explorer with linux
 944 2013-12-22 16:31:21 <jacob___> i think we have a problem with english semantics
 945 2013-12-22 16:31:57 <sipa> maybe let's start over
 946 2013-12-22 16:32:01 <sipa> what are you trying to do?
 947 2013-12-22 16:32:03 <jacob___> good idea
 948 2013-12-22 16:32:12 <jacob___> ))
 949 2013-12-22 16:32:47 <jacob___> ok..., i just did some reading on ECSDA from " Christof Paar" book, very nice and all.
 950 2013-12-22 16:33:00 <jacob___> So i wanted to learn how it is implemented in bitcoin
 951 2013-12-22 16:33:09 <sipa> it is not
 952 2013-12-22 16:33:13 <sipa> it's implemented in openssl
 953 2013-12-22 16:33:16 <jacob___> i am looking at how he creates wallets
 954 2013-12-22 16:33:20 jaakkos_ has left ()
 955 2013-12-22 16:33:25 <sipa> a wallet is much higher level than ecdsa
 956 2013-12-22 16:33:29 <jacob___> well, anyway, i want to know how bitcoin uses the openssl api
 957 2013-12-22 16:33:33 <sipa> ok
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 959 2013-12-22 16:33:40 <jacob___> yes sipa
 960 2013-12-22 16:33:52 <jaakkos> do the signatures take most space in the ledger?
 961 2013-12-22 16:34:03 <sipa> define space?
 962 2013-12-22 16:34:07 <sipa> memory? disk? pixels?
 963 2013-12-22 16:34:08 <jaakkos> bytes
 964 2013-12-22 16:34:10 <jaakkos> disk
 965 2013-12-22 16:34:16 <jaakkos> pixels? :D
 966 2013-12-22 16:34:30 <jacob___> in the book it needs exponent d, public key d*A , this is all what is needed for the wallet?
 967 2013-12-22 16:34:39 <jaakkos> i suppose the txhashes take quite a bit of space too?
 968 2013-12-22 16:35:12 <sipa> a wallet contains addresses, private keys, transactions, metadata, an address book, comments/notes, ...
 969 2013-12-22 16:35:26 <jaakkos> yes but the bitcoin ledger
 970 2013-12-22 16:35:30 <sipa> please don't confuse a wallet with a single address or keypair
 971 2013-12-22 16:35:44 <jaakkos> oh, not talking to me i suppose
 972 2013-12-22 16:35:48 v3ry3l33te has joined
 973 2013-12-22 16:35:51 <jacob___> there is no wallet fileformat defined right?
 974 2013-12-22 16:36:07 <sipa> every implementation has its own, and they hardly even agree about what "wallet" means
 975 2013-12-22 16:36:20 <phantomcircuit> jaakkos, the signatures are a significant part of the blockchain total size
 976 2013-12-22 16:36:27 <jacob___> lol, ok, well i am just talking about what is minimalistic needed for a transaction
 977 2013-12-22 16:36:47 <jaakkos> phantomcircuit: what about txhashes? each input needs to refer one of those too
 978 2013-12-22 16:37:01 <sipa> ok, so you're talking about the storage requirements for transactions?
 979 2013-12-22 16:37:09 <sipa> because that's only a small part of what a wallet stores
 980 2013-12-22 16:37:48 <jacob___> sure people would like to store some metadata with a public private key pair
 981 2013-12-22 16:38:19 hydrogenesis has joined
 982 2013-12-22 16:38:20 <jaakkos> phantomcircuit: i could imagine there might be a way to shorten the txhashes and still be secure, and save a lot of space
 983 2013-12-22 16:38:21 <sipa> ok, are we talking about transactions, or about keypairs?
 984 2013-12-22 16:38:30 <sipa> they're both things that are stored by wallets
 985 2013-12-22 16:38:36 <phantomcircuit> jaakkos, a transactions from an pubkeyhash to a pubkeyhash is about 300 bytes, about half is fixed tx overhead and the other half is the script
 986 2013-12-22 16:38:55 <phantomcircuit> jaakkos, there are much better long term solutions than that
 987 2013-12-22 16:39:13 <jacob___> from what i see, jgarzik only stores keypair combinations
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 989 2013-12-22 16:39:16 <jacob___> nothing more
 990 2013-12-22 16:39:26 <jacob___> in his wallet
 991 2013-12-22 16:39:47 <jacob___> oh-- and the netmagic,.. (header data of the wallet) makes sense
 992 2013-12-22 16:40:04 <sipa> i really doubt that... it would mean he needs to rescan or redownload the entire chain every time
 993 2013-12-22 16:40:20 <sipa> though i haven't looked at the code
 994 2013-12-22 16:40:33 <jaakkos> phantomcircuit: what are some of the suggestions?
 995 2013-12-22 16:40:50 <v3ry3l33te> are there any solutions for linking pub address and email/phone id's in works?
 996 2013-12-22 16:41:00 <sipa> v3ry3l33te: hell no
 997 2013-12-22 16:41:07 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
 998 2013-12-22 16:41:16 <sipa> there is a payment protocol in the works, which essentially lets you send money to a url
 999 2013-12-22 16:41:45 <v3ry3l33te> sipa, interesting, alpha/beta users needed? :)
1000 2013-12-22 16:42:07 <sipa> you're always welcome to test git head
1001 2013-12-22 16:42:15 <sipa> and report problems found in it
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1003 2013-12-22 16:42:34 <v3ry3l33te> k thanks, i'll have a look
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1015 2013-12-22 17:17:36 <Matt_von_Mises> Hi. Can anyone explain why the Satoshi client (recent master branch 0.8.99) gives a source and recipient ip of 0.0.0.0 in the version message when connecting to a node via -connect?
1016 2013-12-22 17:18:54 yubrew has joined
1017 2013-12-22 17:19:03 <sipa> it means it doesn't know its own ip
1018 2013-12-22 17:20:07 <sipa> and for the addrYou address, it only sends it if it believes it's a publically reachable address
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1020 2013-12-22 17:21:59 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: OK thanks, that makes sense.
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1022 2013-12-22 17:23:25 <jacob___> sipa, i am looking at ec.h file (openssl) but cant find the function that verifies the signature
1023 2013-12-22 17:23:29 <jacob___> of ECSDA
1024 2013-12-22 17:23:34 <jacob___> ECDSA
1025 2013-12-22 17:23:36 <jacob___> ooops
1026 2013-12-22 17:23:48 <sipa> look at ecdsa.h
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1028 2013-12-22 17:24:05 <phantomcircuit> i'd tell him to ask in #openssl but that would be mean
1029 2013-12-22 17:24:05 <jacob___> oh great, thanks sipa
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1060 2013-12-22 17:48:40 <jacob___> hello again
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1062 2013-12-22 17:48:48 <jacob___> I am looking at "script opcodes"
1063 2013-12-22 17:48:51 <jacob___> what is that
1064 2013-12-22 17:48:53 <jacob___> OP_PUSHDATA1
1065 2013-12-22 17:49:41 <sipa> it's a script opcode that pushes a number of bytes onto the stack
1066 2013-12-22 17:50:03 <sipa> wgere that number of bytes is specified as asingle byte
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1083 2013-12-22 18:05:08 <jacob___> sipa,..,  I might ask some silly questions as I am plough through the code
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1093 2013-12-22 18:07:41 <jacob___> sipa ,.., these opcodes what do they do?
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1095 2013-12-22 18:08:04 <sipa> jacob___: i can't explain the entire bitcoin script language here
1096 2013-12-22 18:08:10 <jacob___> link?
1097 2013-12-22 18:08:14 <sipa> ;;google script bitcoin
1098 2013-12-22 18:08:17 <gribble> Script - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script>; BIP 0016 - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0016>; OP CHECKSIG - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIG>
1099 2013-12-22 18:08:21 DrHaribo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1100 2013-12-22 18:08:25 <sipa> first link
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1112 2013-12-22 18:17:26 <jacob___> sipa the contents of a transaction is basicly "a script"
1113 2013-12-22 18:18:07 <jacob___> is this correct?
1114 2013-12-22 18:18:24 <sipa> no
1115 2013-12-22 18:18:34 <sipa> a transaction has inputs and outputs
1116 2013-12-22 18:18:36 <lianj> the contents are inputs and outputs
1117 2013-12-22 18:18:38 <sipa> and some metadata
1118 2013-12-22 18:18:51 <sipa> outputs are an amount + a script to assign that amount to
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1120 2013-12-22 18:19:17 <sipa> inputs are a reference to a previous transaction's output + the data to make its script evaluate to true
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1129 2013-12-22 18:22:17 <jacob___> sipa yes,.., sources and destinations..,., can one add more opcode and make new instructions?
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1131 2013-12-22 18:22:45 <jacob___> (quick question)
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1133 2013-12-22 18:23:24 <Matt_von_Mises> If you add new opcodes then the new software will be incompatible with other bitcoin nodes.
1134 2013-12-22 18:24:20 <lianj> unless you make it backwards compatible‎ for some time until the majority of network agrees on the new opcode behavior
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1138 2013-12-22 18:27:24 <jacob___> The older nodes will not verify these transactions if new opcodes are used?
1139 2013-12-22 18:27:47 <jacob___> even if provided a valid signature?
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1141 2013-12-22 18:28:19 <sipa> jacob___: "valid signature" is exactly defined by the opcodes!
1142 2013-12-22 18:28:19 <jacob___> (signing)
1143 2013-12-22 18:28:29 <jacob___> da!
1144 2013-12-22 18:28:31 <jacob___> ok
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1147 2013-12-22 18:28:40 <sipa> if you add an opcodes, there is no way that old nodes could verify its validity
1148 2013-12-22 18:29:04 <jacob___> understood
1149 2013-12-22 18:29:08 <Matt_von_Mises> You can add a new opcode and have the miners enforce it, so that the blocks contain transactions which are valid for both new and old nodes. It would be backwards compatible as long as previous nodes see the transactions as valid.
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1151 2013-12-22 18:29:19 <sipa> depending on whether those new opcodes would be backward compatible, you either have to just upgrade the majority of the hashpower validates it
1152 2013-12-22 18:29:34 daybyter has joined
1153 2013-12-22 18:29:39 <sipa> but in general, you have to upgrade 100% of all nodes (not just mining)
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1160 2013-12-22 18:34:44 <jacob___> sipa, is there a link to the fileformat of the blockchain on disk for qt client?
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1165 2013-12-22 18:37:08 <maaku> jacob___: file format is dead simple
1166 2013-12-22 18:37:09 <maaku> http://james.lab6.com/2012/01/12/bitcoin-285-bytes-that-changed-the-world/
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1180 2013-12-22 18:54:02 <jacob___> thanks maaku)
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1238 2013-12-22 19:33:47 <nsh> in what file is the network id 0xD9B4BEF9 defined?
1239 2013-12-22 19:34:02 <nsh> chainparams.cpp?
1240 2013-12-22 19:34:19 Luke-Jr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1241 2013-12-22 19:35:01 <nsh> oh, main.cpp as pchMessageStart
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1243 2013-12-22 19:38:49 <nsh> no, it moved i guess
1244 2013-12-22 19:40:09 <nsh> ah, it is chainparams.cpp
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1246 2013-12-22 19:41:10 <Intelftw> What is merkle root of block with only coinbase tx? it's sha256d(t1 + t1) ?
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1251 2013-12-22 19:45:14 <BlueMatt> not sha256d(t1)?
1252 2013-12-22 19:46:04 <Intelftw> I'm dumb... thx :D
1253 2013-12-22 19:46:51 <jacob___> HI , what are *.sst files?
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1306 2013-12-22 20:32:43 <Intelftw> Is there any other stratum specification other than slush website?
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1313 2013-12-22 20:48:24 <Luke-Jr> Intelftw: not yet, Stratum was basically a proprietary developed protocol
1314 2013-12-22 20:48:39 <Luke-Jr> Intelftw: GBT, which will hopefully replace stratum someday, has a few BIPs though
1315 2013-12-22 20:49:05 <BlueMatt> gbt == the publicly-developed version that supports all kinds of nice features
1316 2013-12-22 20:49:27 <BlueMatt> stratum == the privately-developed version that was just kinda dumped and doesnt support much beyond what was needed to get mining performance on a centralized pool
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1320 2013-12-22 20:50:19 <kinlo> Intelftw: the forum thread on stratum contains a lot of undocumented stuff, you need to read it to know the entire protocol
1321 2013-12-22 20:50:40 <Intelftw> gbt is clear to me but I want to make compatibilty to other popular protocols too
1322 2013-12-22 20:52:02 <kinlo> forum thread and slush's site are basicly all what is available.  Slush did once promise to write bip's for stratum, but I've never seen them
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1324 2013-12-22 20:53:22 <Intelftw> One thing that isn't mentioned on slush website is when work is sent to miners. I know that it's sent once after subscription but when next? It should obviously be sent when block height updates but is it sent periodically too or something like that?
1325 2013-12-22 20:54:05 <kinlo> usually a pool server sends work about every 30 seconds, but that's basicly up to the implementer
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1328 2013-12-22 20:55:36 <Intelftw> So miner mines on the same work until uses up all of extranonce2 or pool requests reset?
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1330 2013-12-22 20:56:23 <kinlo> pool will have to send new work when a new block is found on the network.  Also, if extranonce2 is used up, something is wrong
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1332 2013-12-22 20:57:00 <kinlo> you definatly want to send new work periodically so it includes the latest transactions to include in the block, so you have the income of the fee's attached to those transactions
1333 2013-12-22 20:58:39 <Intelftw> yeah I know that but work notification has a bool to reset work. Is it always true or just when block is found?
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1337 2013-12-22 21:00:39 <kinlo> slush's page clearly explains what the bool means, you should be able to answer that question yourself
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1339 2013-12-22 21:03:28 <Intelftw> Well, it does not say anything about periodic work updates and wether they should reset work or not.
1340 2013-12-22 21:03:32 * Intelftw starts reading topic
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1343 2013-12-22 21:12:22 <Luke-Jr> Intelftw: pool is free to issue new jobs as it likes
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1345 2013-12-22 21:12:42 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: extranonce2_size could legally be 1 :p
1346 2013-12-22 21:13:29 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: yeah, but let's face it, it has to be 4 or many clients wont work
1347 2013-12-22 21:13:39 <kinlo> I know other clients that barf on other values
1348 2013-12-22 21:13:48 <Intelftw> Luke-Jr: but if you send new job with new transactions without requesting work reset, the miner will never include new transactions then
1349 2013-12-22 21:14:05 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: it's often non-4
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1352 2013-12-22 21:14:40 <Luke-Jr> Intelftw: work updates should be used immediately, with or without clean_work
1353 2013-12-22 21:14:53 <Luke-Jr> Intelftw: clean_work just means older jobs are *invalid*
1354 2013-12-22 21:15:02 <Intelftw> ah I c
1355 2013-12-22 21:15:08 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: which pool does non-4?
1356 2013-12-22 21:15:18 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: any proxy on a 4 pool
1357 2013-12-22 21:15:32 <Luke-Jr> also older Eloipool instances on 64-bit
1358 2013-12-22 21:16:10 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: true, but proxies are contained
1359 2013-12-22 21:16:12 <Luke-Jr> (older Eloipool used pointers)
1360 2013-12-22 21:16:30 <Luke-Jr> actually, I may be thinking of extranonce1 for that..
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1362 2013-12-22 21:17:02 * Luke-Jr ponders how many clients would work if he sent extranonce2_size=3.875 :P
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1364 2013-12-22 21:17:21 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: feel free to experiment on your pool :p
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1371 2013-12-22 21:28:41 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, most of them would
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1419 2013-12-22 22:29:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What was the procedure to downgrade a wallet from 5.1 to 4.8 again?
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1427 2013-12-22 22:32:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|`db_dump5.1 wallet.dat.5.1 | db_load4.8 wallet.dat`?
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1431 2013-12-22 22:36:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|db5.1_dump*
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1433 2013-12-22 22:36:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|db4.8_load*
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1445 2013-12-22 22:47:33 <Intelftw> What type is stratum job id? ASCII encoded hex value?
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1455 2013-12-22 22:58:15 <andytoshi> hey guys, the address  1ForFeesAndDonationsSpendHerdtWbWy does not have a version byte on it
1456 2013-12-22 22:58:23 <andytoshi> (if you convert it to hex, the first byte is not 1)
1457 2013-12-22 22:58:30 <andytoshi> but bitcoind appears happy with it ... why is this?
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1460 2013-12-22 23:01:00 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: because the first byte is the version byte?
1461 2013-12-22 23:01:20 <gmaxwell> it's okay for a base58 encoded key to be short... they are shorter for some numbers.
1462 2013-12-22 23:01:34 <andytoshi> the first byte is 162 tho
1463 2013-12-22 23:02:04 <andytoshi> 162, 110, 2, 90, 103, 175, 228, 110, 232, 130, 104, 106, 0, 0, 39, 78, 20, 24, 165, 54, 156, 21, 123, 138
1464 2013-12-22 23:02:25 troj has joined
1465 2013-12-22 23:03:10 <andytoshi> bitcoind should be claiming that it's not a bitcoin address
1466 2013-12-22 23:03:20 coeus has joined
1467 2013-12-22 23:04:19 <andytoshi> so if you create a rawtransaction spending to it, the first byte is not removed
1468 2013-12-22 23:04:34 <CodeShark> it is a valid address
1469 2013-12-22 23:04:38 <CodeShark> it corresponds to a26e025a67afe46ee882686a0000274e1418a536
1470 2013-12-22 23:04:55 <CodeShark> with version byte 0x00
1471 2013-12-22 23:05:17 <andytoshi> oh, no kidding
1472 2013-12-22 23:05:40 <gmaxwell> I don't understand how you're saying it doesn't have a version byte! it starts with a 1
1473 2013-12-22 23:06:00 <andytoshi> it starts with 1 in base 58, but not in base 256
1474 2013-12-22 23:06:01 <gmaxwell> 58 < 256, but that suggests it has a version byte. :P
1475 2013-12-22 23:06:10 <gmaxwell> oh interesting
1476 2013-12-22 23:06:12 <gmaxwell> sounds like a bug
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1478 2013-12-22 23:06:35 <andytoshi> cool, i can submit a PR once i've determined what should be happening with it
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1481 2013-12-22 23:07:02 <CodeShark> huh? where's the bug?
1482 2013-12-22 23:07:12 <andytoshi> for now i will make a donation address with a lowercase 'f', that fixes it..
1483 2013-12-22 23:08:16 <wyager> gmaxwell: You may want to pitch in on the encrypted HD wallet BIP thread. The guy wants a dev to pitch in on hashing the private key for use as a checksum. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=258678.60
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1486 2013-12-22 23:09:54 <CodeShark> wait, where's the bug? is it incorrect to say that a26e025a67afe46ee882686a0000274e1418a536 with version byte 0 has base58check encoding 1ForFeesAndDonationsSpendHerdtWbWy?
1487 2013-12-22 23:10:06 <CodeShark> I hope not, because that means I've got a bug in all my code, too :)
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1490 2013-12-22 23:10:15 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: perhaps you should should generate a vanity 3psh address with prefix "3FeeDonate..." so you can actualy spend it if funds accidentally get sent there?
1491 2013-12-22 23:10:54 <andytoshi> oh, this is weird, the address 'forFeesAndDonationsSpendHergEsbig' starts with 1 in base 256 but not in base 58, and bitcoind rejects that
1492 2013-12-22 23:11:03 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: do you have a fast nonce based p2sh generator?
1493 2013-12-22 23:11:04 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: i can't vanitygen anything that long
1494 2013-12-22 23:11:17 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no, I don't like to encourage that :P
1495 2013-12-22 23:11:25 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: you can, if its nonced p2sh. :P
1496 2013-12-22 23:11:28 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea fair enough.
1497 2013-12-22 23:11:32 <sipa> andytoshi: a '1' is base58 is value zero
1498 2013-12-22 23:11:41 <Luke-Jr> if I made one, I'd make sure the result was non-standard
1499 2013-12-22 23:11:50 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: that would be fine for andytoshi
1500 2013-12-22 23:11:59 <sipa> something starting with one base58 by defibition starts with a 0 byte
1501 2013-12-22 23:12:23 <sipa> it's a special rule about the transformation to maintain prefix 0 bytes
1502 2013-12-22 23:12:25 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: basically his coinjoin thing uses a placeholder address for the server to replace an output. They should never be announced, but in case some genius somehow data, it might be nice if the funds were recoverable.
1503 2013-12-22 23:12:36 <andytoshi> sipa: oh, my bad, i meant "starts with 0 in base 256 but not 1 in base 58"
1504 2013-12-22 23:12:45 <CodeShark> I just ran three separate tools on 1ForFeesAndDonationsSpendHerdtWbWy, they all confirm that it represents a26e025a67afe46ee882686a0000274e1418a536 with vertions byte 0
1505 2013-12-22 23:12:51 <sipa> andytoshi: thay makes no sense
1506 2013-12-22 23:12:53 <CodeShark> *version byte
1507 2013-12-22 23:13:07 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: yea that makes no sense, the other way around made some sense (though I dunno if it was correct!)
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1509 2013-12-22 23:13:46 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: OP_TRUE?
1510 2013-12-22 23:14:06 <CodeShark> you could use a 1-of-2 multisig and have one of the pubkeys be a nonce
1511 2013-12-22 23:14:24 <sipa> everything that start with 0x00 in base256 starts with 1 in base58, and the other way around
1512 2013-12-22 23:14:28 <gmaxwell> or just a dummy push, it doesn't have to be standard, as it should never get used.
1513 2013-12-22 23:14:40 <andytoshi> gmaxwell, sipa: ok thx, i see the problem
1514 2013-12-22 23:14:46 <gmaxwell> sipa: I was ... unaware of the other way around, how the hell does it achieve that? padding?
1515 2013-12-22 23:14:47 <sipa> either i completely misunderstand the conversion algorithm, or your tool makes a series calculation error
1516 2013-12-22 23:14:57 <andytoshi> sipa: it's my tool
1517 2013-12-22 23:15:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: prefix bytes are converted to prefix 1's
1518 2013-12-22 23:15:13 <sipa> prefix 0x00 bytes
1519 2013-12-22 23:15:14 <andytoshi> it sees 0 and interprets that as "i read the whole address"
1520 2013-12-22 23:15:26 <andytoshi> because it kept shifting bytes off and then there were none left
1521 2013-12-22 23:15:31 <sipa> and the otherbway around
1522 2013-12-22 23:15:46 <sipa> basically using unary encoding to represent padding length
1523 2013-12-22 23:15:51 <andytoshi> whereas in testnet, when the version was nonzero, it would read that -- so i'd explicitly ignore it
1524 2013-12-22 23:16:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea makes sense, somehow I'd missed that it did that.
1525 2013-12-22 23:16:06 <CodeShark> oh, you have a padding issue?
1526 2013-12-22 23:16:17 <andytoshi> and then i was reading base-58 1 as the number 1, and that confused me when i was chasing the bug
1527 2013-12-22 23:16:18 <sipa> no, he has a 0 issue
1528 2013-12-22 23:16:31 <CodeShark> a leading 0 issue
1529 2013-12-22 23:16:57 <CodeShark> oh, a null terminator issue :)
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1531 2013-12-22 23:17:15 <andytoshi> ok, this is cool, i will just explicitly read 20 bytes instead of trying to detect the end by my number being zero
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1533 2013-12-22 23:18:17 <CodeShark> here's my implementation, in case you're interested: https://github.com/CodeShark/CoinClasses/blob/master/src/Base58Check.h
1534 2013-12-22 23:19:35 <CodeShark> I had to add the second toBase58Check thanks to BIP0032 :p
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1537 2013-12-22 23:20:26 <andytoshi> cool, thx
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1539 2013-12-22 23:20:42 <diki> Forum is down.
1540 2013-12-22 23:21:57 <Matt_von_Mises> bitcointalk.org works fine for me.
1541 2013-12-22 23:22:02 <andytoshi> alright, the bug is fixed, if we try the merge again CodeShark, it'll do the donation stuff correctly
1542 2013-12-22 23:22:04 <netg> it goes down and up all day
1543 2013-12-22 23:22:06 <andytoshi> but still not the multisig stuff
1544 2013-12-22 23:22:06 <sipa> andytoshi: every base58 character sequence represents a sibgle unique byte sequence
1545 2013-12-22 23:22:20 <sipa> andytoshi: no need to assume a given output length
1546 2013-12-22 23:22:30 <Matt_von_Mises> "Connection Problems… Sorry, SMF was unable to connect to the database. This may be caused by the server being busy. Please try again later." OK, maybe not...
1547 2013-12-22 23:23:04 <andytoshi> sipa: my problem is that i'm reading it as big-endian, so the base58 character sequence does not represent a unique number
1548 2013-12-22 23:23:06 <sipa> andytoshi: ignoring that, you will accept invalid addressea that are too short
1549 2013-12-22 23:23:13 <sipa> andytoshi: it does
1550 2013-12-22 23:23:29 <sipa> prefix 1 characters are prefix 0x00 bytes
1551 2013-12-22 23:23:30 <CodeShark> do not interpret the input as a number - interpret it simply as a string of bytes
1552 2013-12-22 23:23:37 Anduck is now known as AnDuckling
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1555 2013-12-22 23:23:46 <diki> Matt_von_Mises:I get "Connection Problems"
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1557 2013-12-22 23:23:55 <diki> and a small eror that it can't connect to the db
1558 2013-12-22 23:24:10 <sipa> after stripping the prefix 0x00/1's, you can interpret it as a number and convert, and add the prefixes again
1559 2013-12-22 23:24:31 <andytoshi> oh, i see
1560 2013-12-22 23:24:39 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: It's interesting since almost every time I have come into here, you are around as well. :-) Which is good as you have always been most helpful!
1561 2013-12-22 23:24:43 <andytoshi> so the 1's are not in base 58 then? they represent 0_256?
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1569 2013-12-22 23:29:43 <CodeShark> probably should have never treated the version byte special in any way in these functions since we're now using multibyte version prefixes
1570 2013-12-22 23:30:12 <CodeShark> the caller to these functions could prepend or strip the prefix as appropriate
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1572 2013-12-22 23:30:40 <CodeShark> oh well…changing it now will break a bunch of other stuff :p
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1574 2013-12-22 23:32:01 <CodeShark> I can just have a second fromBase58Check function which does not strip off the first byte for the version
1575 2013-12-22 23:32:47 <Matt_von_Mises> It's a shame that the forums are down, as I made a topic on the subject. But I'm wondering if anyone looked into the possible usage of knowledge-proofs (See SNARKS: eprint.iacr.org/2013/507.pdf) in creating a crypto-currency where only miners need to validate transactions and download the latest block, and normal nodes only need the latest block and relevant utxouts. Blocks would contain proofs of the block-chain validation, so it only needs to be
1576 2013-12-22 23:32:56 agnostic98 has joined
1577 2013-12-22 23:33:28 <CodeShark> this is a better forum than the "forums" 99.9% of the time anyhow :)
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1580 2013-12-22 23:35:06 <sipa> andytoshi: 1's are in base58 just as 0x00 are in base256 bytes
1581 2013-12-22 23:35:23 <sipa> but in both they don't exist in numbers
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1590 2013-12-22 23:41:33 <Matt_von_Mises> Hmm. For some reason, when I send the Satoshi client a ping message it is not processed by ProcessMessage and does not return a pong.
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1594 2013-12-22 23:43:32 <CodeShark> what version are you sending in the handshake?
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1598 2013-12-22 23:46:03 <Matt_von_Mises> 60000 (a little out of date)
1599 2013-12-22 23:46:18 <PhoElf> So, happy holidays to all. May you pass these special times with close friends and people that love you. Pass on the cheer! :)
1600 2013-12-22 23:46:29 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: at 60000, pong did not exist yet
1601 2013-12-22 23:47:03 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: Oh... I'm going to have to look at that again…
1602 2013-12-22 23:47:09 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0031.mediawiki
1603 2013-12-22 23:47:22 <sipa> "version message is greater than 60000"
1604 2013-12-22 23:47:42 <Matt_von_Mises> Oh, I must have took "greater" for "equal to". Whoops.
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1606 2013-12-22 23:47:55 <Matt_von_Mises> So it's 60001?
1607 2013-12-22 23:48:08 <sipa> that's above 60000, yes :)
1608 2013-12-22 23:48:47 <Matt_von_Mises> :-) I might make a few silly mistakes, but I'm not stupid, trust me. ;-)
1609 2013-12-22 23:49:13 <robonerd> who was the guy doing bitcoin for gold?
1610 2013-12-22 23:49:23 <robonerd> spoke with him a few days ago 'round these parts
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1613 2013-12-22 23:51:02 <Matt_von_Mises> "sending: pong (8 bytes)" Hurrah!
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