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  36 2013-12-24 01:10:27 IGHOR has joined
  37 2013-12-24 01:11:13 <IGHOR> Hi everyone
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  95 2013-12-24 02:43:48 <mack25> i'm trying to build the bitcoin qt client in OSX using QT Creator. I keep getting "boost/thread/mutex.hpp: file not found" - has anyone else received this? please help
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  98 2013-12-24 02:44:45 <maaku> mack25: install boost
  99 2013-12-24 02:45:03 <mack25> is it a common thing to have to do that before building the qt?
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 108 2013-12-24 02:53:35 <andytoshi> mack25: everyone has to install boost, i'm surprised you were able to get to the build step without something complaining
 109 2013-12-24 02:53:44 <andytoshi> eg if you run ./configure it'll tell you to install boost
 110 2013-12-24 02:53:52 Plinker_ has joined
 111 2013-12-24 02:53:55 <mack25> ok
 112 2013-12-24 02:54:00 <mack25> im installing at atm
 113 2013-12-24 02:54:07 <mack25> double at
 114 2013-12-24 02:54:29 <mack25> should have it up and running soon
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 138 2013-12-24 03:34:43 <mack25> andytoshi: just installed boost but still getting /boost/thread/mutex.hpp not found
 139 2013-12-24 03:35:09 <mack25> i just did a locate and found boost here
 140 2013-12-24 03:35:15 <mack25>  /opt/local/include/boost/thread/mutex.hpp
 141 2013-12-24 03:36:18 <maaku> mack25: are you using current master from git, or an older version?
 142 2013-12-24 03:37:04 <maaku> if its an older makefile based version, then the location of the boost libraries is set by a makefile variable (see makefile.osx)
 143 2013-12-24 03:37:24 <Luke-Jr> mack25: wtf is boost doing there?
 144 2013-12-24 03:37:36 <maaku> if its the newer autotools.. sounds like something is horribly broken. you ran ./configure?
 145 2013-12-24 03:37:38 <mack25> Luke-Jr: where should it be installed?
 146 2013-12-24 03:37:41 <maaku> Luke-Jr: that's where macports puts it
 147 2013-12-24 03:37:45 <Luke-Jr> mack25: /usr/include ?
 148 2013-12-24 03:37:48 <Luke-Jr> oh, Mac
 149 2013-12-24 03:37:58 <CodeShark> you can always do export CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH = /opt/local/include
 150 2013-12-24 03:38:11 yubrew_ has joined
 151 2013-12-24 03:38:11 <Luke-Jr> but still, /opt/local is totally non-standard; you'd need to tell autotools to look there
 152 2013-12-24 03:38:26 <CodeShark> or add -I/opt/local/include to your CXX_FLAGS
 153 2013-12-24 03:38:35 <Luke-Jr> CXXFLAGS*
 154 2013-12-24 03:38:42 <Luke-Jr> unless Mac has non-standard vars too?
 155 2013-12-24 03:39:03 <maaku> macports should take care of that, it adds those directories to PATH, CXXFLAGS, etc.
 156 2013-12-24 03:39:12 <CodeShark> CXXFLAGS is what I meant
 157 2013-12-24 03:39:18 <maaku> mack25: did you just install macports? then you need to close your terminal and reopen it to reload the profile
 158 2013-12-24 03:39:50 Subo1977_ has joined
 159 2013-12-24 03:39:56 <mack25> i installed macports last night
 160 2013-12-24 03:40:26 <mack25> should i try the export CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH?
 161 2013-12-24 03:40:46 <CodeShark> can't hurt :)
 162 2013-12-24 03:41:26 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 163 2013-12-24 03:41:53 <CodeShark> export CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH=/opt/local/include
 164 2013-12-24 03:42:01 <CodeShark> no spaces before or after the equals
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 166 2013-12-24 03:42:19 <mack25> declare -x CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH="/opt/local/include"
 167 2013-12-24 03:42:22 <mack25> yeah it's in there
 168 2013-12-24 03:42:32 <mack25> still getting the mutex.hpp file not found
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 171 2013-12-24 03:43:43 <CodeShark> you're using clang?
 172 2013-12-24 03:44:21 <mack25> qt creator
 173 2013-12-24 03:44:21 <mack25> if that's what you're asking
 174 2013-12-24 03:44:49 <CodeShark> hmm - I suppose you can edit the .pro file
 175 2013-12-24 03:45:08 <CodeShark> you should be able to set the include path somewhere
 176 2013-12-24 03:45:44 <mack25> line 403
 177 2013-12-24 03:45:48 <mack25> isEmpty(BOOST_INCLUDE_PATH) {
 178 2013-12-24 03:45:48 <mack25>     macx:BOOST_INCLUDE_PATH = /opt/local/include
 179 2013-12-24 03:45:48 <mack25> }
 180 2013-12-24 03:46:01 <Luke-Jr> there is no .pro file anymore..?
 181 2013-12-24 03:46:32 <maaku> mack25: what version of bitcoin are you compiling?
 182 2013-12-24 03:46:39 <CodeShark> does qt creator not run qmake?
 183 2013-12-24 03:47:08 <mack25> 0.8.6.1
 184 2013-12-24 03:49:49 alex_fun has joined
 185 2013-12-24 03:50:06 <alex_fun> hey folks, what is this dark wallet about?
 186 2013-12-24 03:50:17 <alex_fun> some nuts project on indigogo
 187 2013-12-24 03:51:59 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: some browser embedded SX wallet
 188 2013-12-24 03:52:18 jgarzik has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 189 2013-12-24 03:53:12 <mack25> anyway i can confirm boost was installed correctly?
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 193 2013-12-24 03:54:35 <maaku> alex_fun: #darkwallet
 194 2013-12-24 03:55:08 <maaku> mack25: open a terminal, go to the source directory, run `qmake && make` and report if that works
 195 2013-12-24 03:56:00 <Luke-Jr> maaku: it shouldn't
 196 2013-12-24 03:56:20 <Luke-Jr> unless he's building a release..
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 198 2013-12-24 03:56:55 <mack25> qmake command not found
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 201 2013-12-24 04:01:05 <alex_fun> maaku: 0 replies there. it is attempt to anon btc futher via mixing?
 202 2013-12-24 04:02:00 jcrubino has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 203 2013-12-24 04:03:10 <maaku> alex_fun: it's some sort of javascript wallet by amir
 204 2013-12-24 04:03:21 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: it's just a wallet client
 205 2013-12-24 04:03:36 Trix has joined
 206 2013-12-24 04:03:55 <alex_fun> they got 50K for it, pretty nice :D
 207 2013-12-24 04:04:32 Trix has left ()
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 209 2013-12-24 04:05:08 <maaku> has anyone proposed a standard for putting data in the terminal transaction output?
 210 2013-12-24 04:05:28 <maaku> (of a coinbase, I mean)
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 213 2013-12-24 04:06:05 <Luke-Jr> maaku: afaik only p2pool has done *anything* like that so far
 214 2013-12-24 04:08:17 <maaku> huh, i thought it would have been more widespread
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 218 2013-12-24 04:09:37 <Luke-Jr> maaku: you guys are the only ones really trying to do any innovation in this area.. :
 219 2013-12-24 04:09:38 <Luke-Jr> :/
 220 2013-12-24 04:10:14 <mack25> src/db.h:14:10: fatal error: 'db_cxx.h' file not found
 221 2013-12-24 04:10:21 <mack25> ^ when i tried qmake && make
 222 2013-12-24 04:10:37 <maaku> mack25: port install db48
 223 2013-12-24 04:11:03 n0n0 has joined
 224 2013-12-24 04:11:56 <maaku> before I write this up, is there any interest in a generalized pow voting mechanism for soft fork changes?
 225 2013-12-24 04:14:12 <Luke-Jr> maaku: I believe I sent a very fundamental conceptual draft to you once? but yes, I'm interested somewhat
 226 2013-12-24 04:14:12 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 227 2013-12-24 04:14:28 <maaku> hrm.. i'll have to root around and find that draft
 228 2013-12-24 04:15:10 BCB has joined
 229 2013-12-24 04:15:14 <maaku> but it's really not much more than extra bitfields in the coinbase/last output
 230 2013-12-24 04:15:24 <maaku> express your support for proposition #7 by setting bit #7
 231 2013-12-24 04:16:05 <maaku> older nodes that don't know what prop #7 is, still know that a vote occured and that *some* soft-fork change was implemented, and can warn the user to upgrade
 232 2013-12-24 04:16:13 BCB has left ()
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 234 2013-12-24 04:17:12 <Luke-Jr> maaku: here it is https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_MergedMiningScript
 235 2013-12-24 04:17:30 <Luke-Jr> maaku: voting on POW by POW is silly
 236 2013-12-24 04:17:47 <Luke-Jr> maaku: voting on POW would IMO need to be POS with something to prevent the POW miners from controlling the vote
 237 2013-12-24 04:17:56 <maaku> thanks
 238 2013-12-24 04:18:28 <maaku> voting on POW would be a hard-fork change, right?
 239 2013-12-24 04:18:38 clr_ has joined
 240 2013-12-24 04:18:43 <maaku> this would be just for soft-fork stuff, like height-in-the-coinbase or committed-validation-index
 241 2013-12-24 04:19:16 <Luke-Jr> ah
 242 2013-12-24 04:19:18 <Luke-Jr> why not just continue to use block version? O.o
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 246 2013-12-24 04:23:18 ultramancool has joined
 247 2013-12-24 04:23:26 <ultramancool> anyone have any idea how the hell I manage to get a "" : -2.30395846 in bitcoind listaccounts?
 248 2013-12-24 04:25:26 <gmaxwell> ultramancool: I was going to direct you to #bitcoin but I see you're already getting answers there.
 249 2013-12-24 04:26:07 <ultramancool> gmaxwell: yeah, sorry ,thought someone here might be more knowledgable and have an idea if it was a known bug or something
 250 2013-12-24 04:26:39 <gmaxwell> ultramancool: no, you're being given good answers there.
 251 2013-12-24 04:27:59 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
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 253 2013-12-24 04:28:13 <maaku> Luke-Jr the block version mechanism isn't suitably defined
 254 2013-12-24 04:28:27 <maaku> what's the cutoff for quorum or acceptance?
 255 2013-12-24 04:28:39 <maaku> what do you do when there are two votes going on?
 256 2013-12-24 04:28:48 <maaku> this isn't well defined
 257 2013-12-24 04:28:51 <maaku> oh, he's offline
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 268 2013-12-24 04:47:49 <mack25> my Makefile states to use clang to build
 269 2013-12-24 04:47:54 <mack25> is that ok to use?
 270 2013-12-24 04:48:04 <mack25> or should i switch to g++
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 272 2013-12-24 04:50:28 <andytoshi> mack25: clang should be fine, i used it all the time in the pre-Makefile days
 273 2013-12-24 04:51:02 patcon has joined
 274 2013-12-24 04:53:18 <mack25> i have the files in /opt/local/include/boost/thread/mutex.hpp and /opt/local/include/db48/db_cxx.h http://i.imgur.com/24Uv6A2.png - http://i.imgur.com/fSWeCDy.png
 275 2013-12-24 04:53:36 brson has joined
 276 2013-12-24 04:54:11 <mack25> im still getting the errors though. seems like both make and qt creator has issues with files on those directories
 277 2013-12-24 04:56:07 <andytoshi> what is the ./configure command you are running?
 278 2013-12-24 04:56:26 clr_ has joined
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 280 2013-12-24 04:57:49 <mack25> just qmake && make
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 283 2013-12-24 05:01:44 <andytoshi> mack25: ok, you need to set the paths
 284 2013-12-24 05:01:54 <andytoshi> one moment, i'll check my ./configure command..
 285 2013-12-24 05:01:57 <mack25> ok
 286 2013-12-24 05:01:59 <mack25> thx
 287 2013-12-24 05:02:31 <andytoshi> CFLAGS=/opt/local/include/ ./configure
 288 2013-12-24 05:02:31 <andytoshi> might work
 289 2013-12-24 05:02:42 <andytoshi> i'm surprised ./configure is not bombing out with 'cannot find boost'
 290 2013-12-24 05:04:05 <upb> what kind of flag is /opt/local/include/ ?:P
 291 2013-12-24 05:04:38 <andytoshi> oh, oops
 292 2013-12-24 05:04:45 <andytoshi> i meant -I/opt/local/include/ i think
 293 2013-12-24 05:04:47 <upb> -I maybe
 294 2013-12-24 05:04:49 <andytoshi> yeah
 295 2013-12-24 05:05:01 <andytoshi> my command is
 296 2013-12-24 05:05:04 <andytoshi> CXX=clang++ CRYPTO_CFLAGS=-I/usr/local/ssl/include CRYPTO_LIBS="-L/usr/local/ssl/lib -ldl -lcrypto" SSL_CFLAGS=-I/usr/local/ssl/include SSL_LIBS="-L/usr/local/ssl/lib -lssl" ./configure --disable-ipv6 --with-qt=no --enable-tests=no
 297 2013-12-24 05:05:22 <andytoshi> (i just added the clang to see if it'd work -- seems to be so far, halfway throguh compile)
 298 2013-12-24 05:07:46 <mack25> add all that stuff before ./configure as well?
 299 2013-12-24 05:08:09 <andytoshi> nah, you shouldn't need any of that if your ssl libs are in the right place
 300 2013-12-24 05:08:47 <andytoshi> i'd guess you also need
 301 2013-12-24 05:08:55 <andytoshi> LIBS=-L/opt/local/lib/
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 305 2013-12-24 05:20:00 <maaku> <maaku> Luke-Jr the block version mechanism isn't suitably defined
 306 2013-12-24 05:20:01 <maaku> <maaku> what's the cutoff for quorum or acceptance?
 307 2013-12-24 05:20:01 <maaku> <maaku> what do you do when there are two votes going on?
 308 2013-12-24 05:20:01 <maaku> <maaku> this isn't well defined
 309 2013-12-24 05:21:03 cooldharma06 has joined
 310 2013-12-24 05:21:24 <cooldharma06> hi i am new to this bitcoin
 311 2013-12-24 05:21:40 <cooldharma06> i read we can work for bitcoinminer
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 450 2013-12-24 09:04:55 <Eremes> anyone know native bitcoin wallet for jailbroken iphone ?
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 454 2013-12-24 09:06:45 <wumpus> Eremes: that's very risky, I recommend that you simply get a device on which you can run a bitcoin wallet without resorting to hacking
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 456 2013-12-24 09:07:53 <Eremes> wumpus: hmm, make sense
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 518 2013-12-24 10:33:30 <freeroute> hi, does blockchain.info allow me to send to multiple recipients in one transaction? If so, how? If not, what light clients allow you to do that?
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 564 2013-12-24 11:35:35 <freeroute> no worries everyone, just found it - in blockchain.info there's a button next to custom send to add multiple recipients. I think it's a new feature.
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 569 2013-12-24 11:48:42 <Alina-malina> I am wondering what language was SR written on? Was it some php cms?? or other language? Just interesting...
 570 2013-12-24 11:49:33 <scoofy> here's some actual sr source code:
 571 2013-12-24 11:49:33 <scoofy> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15445285/how-can-i-connect-to-a-tor-hidden-service-using-curl-in-php
 572 2013-12-24 11:49:51 <scoofy> (confirmed by fbi)
 573 2013-12-24 11:50:12 <Alina-malina> scoofy, was it in source code? or was it just a scraper that grab information from other server? just wondering
 574 2013-12-24 11:50:46 <scoofy> iirc they found code on the server that is similar to that one
 575 2013-12-24 11:50:46 <scoofy> don't know more details
 576 2013-12-24 11:50:52 <Alina-malina> k
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 580 2013-12-24 11:54:23 <Alina-malina> scoofy, do you know anywhere where i can see that website?how it looks like? I never visit it so i miss my chance?
 581 2013-12-24 11:57:10 <nsh> yes, but it's not too late to see the panda
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 583 2013-12-24 11:58:47 <Alina-malina> oh
 584 2013-12-24 11:58:54 <Alina-malina> anything like archive.org?
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 610 2013-12-24 12:44:42 <wumpus> Alina-malina: archive.org doesn't index TOR AFAIK
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 789 2013-12-24 15:37:54 <icoradan> hi
 790 2013-12-24 15:38:31 <icoradan> I am compiling miniupnpc in a Windows 7 VM and I am having compilation errors
 791 2013-12-24 15:38:41 <icoradan> could does anybody help me?
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 798 2013-12-24 15:43:09 <icoradan> undefined reference to 'FreePortListing'
 799 2013-12-24 15:43:27 <icoradan> anybody help me?
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 856 2013-12-24 16:53:39 <Alina-malina> wumpus, what about an archive.org but in hid servises? must be somewhere? maybe someone can point me there?
 857 2013-12-24 16:54:04 <sipa> why should it be somewhere?
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 862 2013-12-24 16:59:30 <v3ry3l33te> none that im aware of
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 947 2013-12-24 19:32:10 <TD> does boost/bitcoind have a ring buffer construct at all? like i want to record N integers where adding a new one pushes an old one off the end, but ideally without inefficient copying
 948 2013-12-24 19:32:25 <TD> and with O(1) random access
 949 2013-12-24 19:32:36 <sipa> TD: stl::deque ?
 950 2013-12-24 19:33:33 <TD> ah ha: http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_37_0/libs/circular_buffer/doc/circular_buffer.html
 951 2013-12-24 19:34:14 <TD> sipa: that might work too yes
 952 2013-12-24 19:34:16 <TD> thanks
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 956 2013-12-24 19:38:46 <phantomcircuit> sipa, iirc deque is a doubly linked list nto really a circular buffer
 957 2013-12-24 19:39:02 <phantomcircuit> although in practice there should be effectively no difference beyond cache misses
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 982 2013-12-24 20:10:53 <maaku> phantomcircuit: deque is an array type, isn't it?
 983 2013-12-24 20:13:26 <phantomcircuit> maaku, it's implementation defined
 984 2013-12-24 20:13:46 <phantomcircuit> the array type is only efficient if the size of the deque is relatively constant though since they do on the fly reallocation
 985 2013-12-24 20:14:01 <phantomcircuit> some of them are smart and link the last element to a newly allocated array
 986 2013-12-24 20:14:11 <phantomcircuit> some of them are stupid and allocate a new array and copy everything over
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1009 2013-12-24 20:38:16 <justanotheruser> Can the scripts be used to determine amount each output gets, or just whether or not an output is paid?
1010 2013-12-24 20:39:03 <rfish> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
1011 2013-12-24 20:39:06 <gmaxwell> No. Scripts have little to do with _outputs_ they control if a coin can be _spent_.
1012 2013-12-24 20:39:09 <rfish> Is that implemented in bitcoin?
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1014 2013-12-24 20:39:22 <gmaxwell> rfish: yes, from the very first public release.
1015 2013-12-24 20:39:52 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: though whatever you're thinking of can still probably be accomplished, with some amount of indirection.
1016 2013-12-24 20:40:01 <rfish> can I build a trustless lottery with that?
1017 2013-12-24 20:40:16 <gmaxwell> rfish: yes.
1018 2013-12-24 20:40:20 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: With the current bitcoin, or are you saying it could be accomplished with a hard fork?
1019 2013-12-24 20:40:34 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: with current bitcoin.
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1026 2013-12-24 20:40:59 <rfish> hmmm, does one exist already?
1027 2013-12-24 20:41:21 <gmaxwell> rfish: no, defeats the purpose of a lottery— to make money for its operator.
1028 2013-12-24 20:41:32 <Apocalyptic> ^^
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1030 2013-12-24 20:41:36 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: I'm guessing you're saying I could make 20/100 of the transactions spendable if I wanted to pay him 20%?
1031 2013-12-24 20:42:01 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: it's often the case that a protocol you can't accomplish in bitcoin can be transformed into one you can with some moderate overhead.
1032 2013-12-24 20:42:14 <rfish> someone can just add a script into an address
1033 2013-12-24 20:42:21 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: you haven't actually said anything about what you were actually trying to accomplish. Goals not mechenisms.
1034 2013-12-24 20:42:21 <rfish> that evert X amount of blocks
1035 2013-12-24 20:43:08 <rfish> the none zeros in the hash of Y blocks are summed together, used to pick a winner and automatically gives the loot to the winner
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1037 2013-12-24 20:43:29 <rfish> and bitcoins sent to that address are not spendable in any other way
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1041 2013-12-24 20:43:56 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: I forget why I asked. It was either because I had an idea I forgot, or I was just curious.
1042 2013-12-24 20:43:58 <gmaxwell> rfish: no. you can't do exactly that, but a lottery can be constructed none the less. (depending on block hashes is generally a bad idea, fwiw)
1043 2013-12-24 20:44:07 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: fair enough.
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1045 2013-12-24 20:44:46 <rfish> why is depending on block hashes a bad idea?
1046 2013-12-24 20:44:54 <gmaxwell> rfish: because miners control them.
1047 2013-12-24 20:45:23 <rfish> it would be very hard to find a hash that solves a block and rigs a lottery
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1049 2013-12-24 20:45:54 <gmaxwell> rfish: e.g. if you're half the players in the lottery you just need a single bit of control to rig the outcome.
1050 2013-12-24 20:46:13 <gmaxwell> and there are pools that control enormous hashpower and don't take the risk for orphan blocks.
1051 2013-12-24 20:46:26 <gmaxwell> it's just not advisable, especially because it is completely unnecessary.
1052 2013-12-24 20:46:52 <gmaxwell> and any binding to the block hashes is currently impossible and unlikely to become possible due the problems with reorginization.
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1056 2013-12-24 20:49:42 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: how is the trustless lottery winner determined?
1057 2013-12-24 20:50:14 <rfish> justanotheruser: I was suggesting using the block hashes as randomness
1058 2013-12-24 20:50:35 <gmaxwell> rfish: which is stupid.
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1062 2013-12-24 20:51:09 <andytoshi> rfish: you can use transaction hashes as randomness (though this is subject to malleability concerns, so for now it is just academic)
1063 2013-12-24 20:51:11 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: is there a trustless way to determine a winner?
1064 2013-12-24 20:51:32 <sipa> transaction hashes seems even worse than block hashes
1065 2013-12-24 20:51:35 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: players commit to random values by sharing hashes of them. then to redeem you provide preimages and the hash of them selects the winner.
1066 2013-12-24 20:51:53 <gmaxwell> oh crap this is in #bitcoin-dev?  (only noticed because sipa talked :P)
1067 2013-12-24 20:52:07 <CodeShark> lol
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1069 2013-12-24 20:52:49 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: This can be done in a transaction? Also, yes this is #bitcoin-dev. You can tell by the lack of "to da moon"
1070 2013-12-24 20:52:51 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: see also https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277048.0 and related threads.
1071 2013-12-24 20:53:19 <justanotheruser> Okay, thanks
1072 2013-12-24 20:53:24 <maaku> sipa, gmaxwell: thoughts about making the validation index keyed by txid:n instead of txid?
1073 2013-12-24 20:54:17 <maaku> it means every output would have to have the transaction metadata repeated, but proofs aren't enlarged with irrelevant outputs
1074 2013-12-24 20:54:23 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: also see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=355174.0
1075 2013-12-24 20:54:23 <maaku> *sibling outputs
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1078 2013-12-24 20:56:07 <rfish> gmaxwell:  How does that example deal with what happens if a user decides he no longer wants to reveal his coin flip?
1079 2013-12-24 20:56:27 <rfish> gmaxwell:  This doesn't seem to work for a giant lottery pool
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1087 2013-12-24 21:04:51 <rfish> Isn't it true though that mining pool operators don't control the hash of the result but it is the individual miners that control the hash of the block?
1088 2013-12-24 21:05:41 <maaku> rfish: nobody "controls" the hash of a block
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1090 2013-12-24 21:06:28 <trixisowned> ugh anyone familiar with stratum
1091 2013-12-24 21:06:37 <petertodd> maaku: they can influence the hash proportional to their hashing power at a cost proportional to how many blocks they have to reject for that influence
1092 2013-12-24 21:06:44 <trixisowned> My pool suddenly hit 2GH/s and now there are way to many shares being submitted
1093 2013-12-24 21:06:44 <midnightmagic> rfish: Individual miners *find* the hash of actual blocks, correct.
1094 2013-12-24 21:06:45 <trixisowned> way to fast
1095 2013-12-24 21:06:49 <trixisowned> how do i fix this?
1096 2013-12-24 21:07:03 <midnightmagic> trixisowned: #bitcoin-mining ?
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1098 2013-12-24 21:07:20 <rfish> I'm saying it would be difficult, if there were incentives, for miners to not want to show results to for mined block if they wanted to
1099 2013-12-24 21:07:32 <petertodd> maaku: it's easy to find examples where such influence can actually be profitable, although fortunately it's just as easy to design systems where it's not an issue
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1105 2013-12-24 21:09:24 <rfish> so that being said I still think that the result of the hash of the block is good input for decentralized randomness
1106 2013-12-24 21:10:11 <petertodd> rfish: yes, but you need to take care to analyse exactly what miners would have to gain from influencing the result, and how much influence they have
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1109 2013-12-24 21:12:00 <petertodd> rfish: e.g. for a lottery application, add, say, n blockhashes together then take the sum of those hashes after applying a transformation to transform the expected normal distribution to a flat probability distribution
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1111 2013-12-24 21:12:38 <rfish> well even in that case, only the last hash will matter
1112 2013-12-24 21:12:59 <petertodd> rfish: no, because the *influence* on the final result is still 1/n
1113 2013-12-24 21:13:45 <petertodd> rfish: another way is to take a specific hash and then run it though enough iterations of, say, scrypt, that the fastest known machine will take a few minutes - that's plenty to make it completely infeasible for miners to influence the result
1114 2013-12-24 21:14:20 <rfish> hmm, true you can build a hashing function where each previous hash can at least eliminate some winners
1115 2013-12-24 21:14:30 <petertodd> rfish: for a lotto where the random numbers are used for verifiing that the draw is done honestly I highly recommend the scrypt approach for simplicity
1116 2013-12-24 21:15:23 <petertodd> rfish: you don't need too, all we have to do is make it infeasible for miners to rig the vote by dropping successful blocks meeting some criteria, that's already expensive, the scrypt function simply makes it take so long it's infeasible
1117 2013-12-24 21:15:50 <petertodd> rfish: the only issue is the computation takes a long time, but for verifying a lottery that's not a big deal.
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1124 2013-12-24 21:22:56 <rfish> hmm, I guess decentralized random numbers are a tough topic
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1151 2013-12-24 21:40:40 <rfish> anyways I think transactions should be able to reference block hashes as they may not be a perfect source of randomness, but they are pretty good so long as the reward for tampering with them isn't too high
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1155 2013-12-24 21:44:12 <justanotheruser> rfish: if block rewards are 25btc, and GHash.io mines 30% of the blocks. They could ignore a users losing block 30% of the time meaning they would win a bit more than they would lose. That is dangerous
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1157 2013-12-24 21:44:55 <Apocalyptic> justanotheruser, no need to ignore blocks
1158 2013-12-24 21:45:27 <rfish> a single entity mining 30% of the blocks is dangerous of itself
1159 2013-12-24 21:45:32 <Apocalyptic> you can just add/remove transactions if you have enough time to find the good nonce
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1161 2013-12-24 21:47:02 <justanotheruser> Apocalyptic: That would involve throwing away a winning block, wouldn't it.
1162 2013-12-24 21:47:15 <Apocalyptic> indeed it would
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1166 2013-12-24 21:47:37 <rfish> Apocalyptic: I don't see how that helps
1167 2013-12-24 21:48:14 <justanotheruser> Apocalyptic: oh, I see. That's what I meant by ignoring a users losing block
1168 2013-12-24 21:48:32 <Apocalyptic> I guess so :)
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1187 2013-12-24 22:02:31 <Peaker> Hey, is the nonce hashed alongside the block header or alongside the whole block?
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1189 2013-12-24 22:03:40 <Peaker> whenever a new block comes in, any hash nonce searches become invalidated, since we now need to hash with a new "hashPrevBlock" and "hashMerkleRoot" ?
1190 2013-12-24 22:04:04 <Peaker> is this why it makes sense for miners to pool up to groups -- so they are the first to find the next block?
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1192 2013-12-24 22:06:02 <Peaker> what's the incentive for miners to add transactions to their block? Just the fee? If so, why do 0-fee transactions ever get processed? Altruism?
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1195 2013-12-24 22:06:19 <Peaker> hmm.. I guess these questions are more for #bitcoin, sorry :)
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1211 2013-12-24 22:33:52 <gmaxwell> rfish: it would be trivial for most pools to discard solutions they don't like. It's also trivial for their miners to do that too.
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1266 2013-12-24 23:34:22 <melik> how can i build bitcoind without bitcoin-qt?
1267 2013-12-24 23:34:29 <melik> i really dont want extra dependencies :/
1268 2013-12-24 23:34:37 <maaku> melik: --without-qt
1269 2013-12-24 23:34:57 <melik> perfect thank you
1270 2013-12-24 23:35:03 * Luke-Jr notes that's default if you don't have the dependencies :P
1271 2013-12-24 23:35:24 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1272 2013-12-24 23:36:03 * Luke-Jr also notes that both suggestions don't apply to any released versoins <.<
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1278 2013-12-24 23:40:02 <melik> thanks guys!
1279 2013-12-24 23:41:50 <melik> decided to run a dedicated node
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1288 2013-12-24 23:54:50 <c0rw> xmas!~c0rw1n@97.188-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be|merry christmas #bitcoin-dev
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