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  60 2013-12-27 01:18:10 <deanclkclk> maaku: u working on a exchange?
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  87 2013-12-27 01:50:10 <maaku> deanclkclk: yes
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 235 2013-12-27 05:01:07 <mack25> hey folks, got a question. what is causing this error when trying to build bitcoin-qt.pro using QT Creator: Makefile:750: warning: overriding commands for target `build/moc_macnotificationhandler.cpp'
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 240 2013-12-27 05:04:33 <maaku> mack25: that's not an error. is there any other output?
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 242 2013-12-27 05:06:41 <mack25> one sec
 243 2013-12-27 05:06:47 <mack25> letting it build again
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 247 2013-12-27 05:19:19 <mack25> ld: library not found for -lcrt0.o
 248 2013-12-27 05:19:24 <mack25> looks like that's the issue now
 249 2013-12-27 05:20:28 <mack25> was reading that you can just tell it not to use that
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 254 2013-12-27 05:27:06 <mack25> maaku know of anything I can do?
 255 2013-12-27 05:27:14 <mack25> should i download a library?
 256 2013-12-27 05:27:19 <mack25> or try to make it not recognize that one
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 265 2013-12-27 05:46:26 <deanclkclk> good luck with that maaku
 266 2013-12-27 05:46:31 <deanclkclk> I'm working on one myself
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 281 2013-12-27 06:01:39 <wallet42> any experts in manual crafting and signing transactions?
 282 2013-12-27 06:02:20 <wallet42> i want to redeem a multisig transaction that was paid to a script hash
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 284 2013-12-27 06:03:08 <wallet42> i can craft anything but i think i mess somewhere the signaturehash
 285 2013-12-27 06:03:13 <wallet42> mess up
 286 2013-12-27 06:03:57 <wallet42> my crafting is based on http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3374/how-to-redeem-a-basic-tx
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 291 2013-12-27 06:04:58 <wallet42> if i use bitcoind signrawtransaction everything works fine, but my own python code doest seem to sign the right unsigned tx hash
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 299 2013-12-27 06:06:31 <wallet42> can i see somehow what is the correct unsigned tx id that is bitcoind signing?
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 328 2013-12-27 06:12:45 <andytoshi> wallet42: the signed tx is a copy of the original, but with every scriptsig except the current one removed (len = 0) ... to the best of my knowledge, there is no hook in the code to see the signed transaction, but it does exist prior to signing, so you should be able to output it
 329 2013-12-27 06:13:14 <andytoshi> by just copying the print-serialization code from rpc getrawtransaction
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 344 2013-12-27 06:26:06 <joinjackbob> http://pastebin.com/B0m4kpRv - been trying to find some answers to this problem, though none so far. I crashed the daemon, and now I cannot get it going again. Could anyone point me in the right direction
 345 2013-12-27 06:27:49 <maaku> mack25: sounds like a broken toolchain
 346 2013-12-27 06:27:53 <joinjackbob> it's for dogecoin, though as far as I understand, all the coins are built from bitcoin
 347 2013-12-27 06:28:02 <maaku> crt0 is the C run time library
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 349 2013-12-27 06:29:10 <maaku> joinjackbob: ask #dogecoin
 350 2013-12-27 06:29:36 <joinjackbob> it's a zoo in there, hard to get a straight answer
 351 2013-12-27 06:29:45 <rdn> joinjackbob, corrupt db
 352 2013-12-27 06:30:02 <joinjackbob> I figure it's a matter of removing a file
 353 2013-12-27 06:30:03 <warren> joinjackbob: what do you expect when you are relying on software that is supposed to be a joke?
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 356 2013-12-27 06:31:54 <joinjackbob> what I mean is, remove the corrupt database and restart it, rebuild a fresh one
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 363 2013-12-27 06:38:25 <joinjackbob> rdn: well that's a huge help, I'm at least on the right path now
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 367 2013-12-27 06:45:57 <rdn> warren, dogecoin is a bitcoin-qt skin, users have had this same error with bitcoin-qt and litecoin-qt
 368 2013-12-27 06:46:37 <warren> rdn: dogecoin is based on an ancient version of bitcoin
 369 2013-12-27 06:47:08 <warren> rdn: aside from that, people here just aren't interested in helping the thousands of scam copies
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 375 2013-12-27 06:52:58 <joinjackbob> rdn: thanks for the help, found what I was looking for
 376 2013-12-27 06:54:16 <joinjackbob> warren: I see your point
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 379 2013-12-27 07:05:13 <joinjackbob> not sure if I'd call them scams though
 380 2013-12-27 07:05:22 <joinjackbob> outright scams
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 382 2013-12-27 07:06:08 <joinjackbob> Anyway, all the best
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 387 2013-12-27 07:11:17 <sipa> wallet42: current git head has a wrapper CTransactionSignatureSerializer which can be used to get the modified version of a transaction, as is used for signing
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 469 2013-12-27 07:59:36 <odie5533> How can I monitor an address to see when it receives money? Do I need to add it to bitcoind?
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 566 2013-12-27 09:57:41 <CodeShark> pinging gmaxwell
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 616 2013-12-27 11:01:00 <arioBarzan> anyone has any opinion on this type of scriptPubKey?
 617 2013-12-27 11:01:03 <arioBarzan> OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKey1Hash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_2 OP_SWAP <pubKey2> OP_2 OP_CHECKMULTISIG
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 619 2013-12-27 11:01:38 <arioBarzan> scriptSig would be
 620 2013-12-27 11:01:40 <arioBarzan> OP_0 <sig> <pubKey1>
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 653 2013-12-27 11:43:11 <CodeShark> arioBarzan: to be more precise, scriptSig is OP_0 <sig1> <sig2> <pubKey1>
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 658 2013-12-27 11:48:44 <arioBarzan> CodeShark: right
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 662 2013-12-27 11:49:35 <CodeShark> well, my opinion is that things would be a hell of a lot easier if everything were p2sh :)
 663 2013-12-27 11:51:04 <CodeShark> as curious as this example might be, it really is up to the recipient to construct a script and give a payment output to the sender, IMO
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 665 2013-12-27 11:51:38 <CodeShark> trying to think of a use case where this wouldn't be so
 666 2013-12-27 11:51:38 <arioBarzan> easier, but not necessarily more secure I guess. That scriptPubKey seams more secure to me though.
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 668 2013-12-27 11:52:30 <CodeShark> scriptPubKey does have more entropy, but finding a redeemable ripemd160 collision seems computationally infeasible
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 670 2013-12-27 11:55:00 <arioBarzan> is that scriptPubKey accepted by current rules of reference implementation?
 671 2013-12-27 11:55:32 <CodeShark> the script would probably be considered valid if included in a block, but the reference implementation won't relay such a transaction unless it's in a block
 672 2013-12-27 11:56:04 <CodeShark> to crack p2sh, you'd have to find a way to enumerate redeemable scripts (perhaps using a 1-of-2 multisig and using the second pubkey as a nonce)
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 674 2013-12-27 11:56:42 <CodeShark> we're still talking a preimage attack on ripemd160
 675 2013-12-27 11:57:11 <CodeShark> essentially equivalent to finding a vanity address that matches exactly, all characters up to the checksum
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 678 2013-12-27 11:58:00 <arioBarzan> CodeShark: thanks
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 683 2013-12-27 12:02:08 <CodeShark> I've been pondering a bit the possibility of using a pow function that requires serial processing for finding a valid block but affords parallel processing for verification
 684 2013-12-27 12:02:24 <CodeShark> for instance, chained encryption using a weak key
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 688 2013-12-27 12:03:47 <CodeShark> then difficulty could be set by not only increasing the key size but also the chain length
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 690 2013-12-27 12:05:17 <CodeShark> rising difficulty would increase the cost of verification, but not nearly as much as it would increase the cost of mining
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 693 2013-12-27 12:06:04 <CodeShark> specifically, mining would benefit little from massively parallel circuits
 694 2013-12-27 12:08:15 <CodeShark> verification, on the other hand, could be distributed across the network somehow
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 728 2013-12-27 12:55:27 <abishek> is there a way to query all the transactions on the blockchain?
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 735 2013-12-27 13:05:01 <sipa> abishek: indexed by what?
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 740 2013-12-27 13:11:05 <abishek> sipa, i need to filter all the transactions that belong to a particular country. is it possible...
 741 2013-12-27 13:11:55 <wumpus> no, that's not possible
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 743 2013-12-27 13:13:11 <abishek> ok. does a transaction contain information about which IP address did it originate from?
 744 2013-12-27 13:13:17 <wumpus> no
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 758 2013-12-27 13:24:50 <SomeoneWeird> abishek, that's the whole "anonymous" part at work :)
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 760 2013-12-27 13:26:08 <abishek> we have had recent events in our country about making bitcoin transactions close to being illegal, so am trying to figure out how to help the govt. There are questions about using Bitcoins for money laundering and scamming
 761 2013-12-27 13:27:11 <Belxjander> abishek: then focus on it as a money and try to have it covered by existing monetary law with the same problems appearing in both
 762 2013-12-27 13:27:20 <Belxjander> bitcoin is easier to track since the blockchain is public
 763 2013-12-27 13:27:37 <Belxjander> you just have to confirm an address from a specific private key really
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 767 2013-12-27 13:30:38 <abishek> being public is fine, how can one ensure that it is not being used for money laundering?
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 771 2013-12-27 13:31:40 <sipa> how do you guarantee cash is not used for money laundering? by having a good bookkeeping that explains where all money comes from
 772 2013-12-27 13:31:43 <sipa> same thing
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 843 2013-12-27 15:02:26 <deanclkclk> folks question
 844 2013-12-27 15:02:28 <deanclkclk> getaddressesbyaccount
 845 2013-12-27 15:02:31 <deanclkclk> what is an account?
 846 2013-12-27 15:02:44 <deanclkclk> I thought most things in bitcoind works with addresses
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 852 2013-12-27 15:04:54 <pigeons> deanclkclk: account is a local bucket of inputs the client software keeps track of, unrelated to the bitcoin network
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 854 2013-12-27 15:06:35 <sipa> deanclkclk: forget about accounts
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 858 2013-12-27 15:08:12 <deanclkclk> would it be the same as "label" whenever I'm creating my Bitcoin receiving address sipa ?
 859 2013-12-27 15:08:26 <sipa> yes, an unfortunate design choice
 860 2013-12-27 15:08:49 <sipa> when you receive money via an address that has label X, account X is credited with that amount
 861 2013-12-27 15:09:03 <sipa> when sending money, it's always subtracted from the "" account, unless you use sendfrom
 862 2013-12-27 15:09:11 <deanclkclk> cool
 863 2013-12-27 15:09:13 <deanclkclk> thx sipa
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 865 2013-12-27 15:09:21 <sipa> note that this has _nothing_ to do with the actual coins assigned to an address
 866 2013-12-27 15:09:44 <sipa> when sending money, all coins - receive any all addresses - are always used to construct the inputs
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 868 2013-12-27 15:10:01 <wumpus> yes, forget about accounts, the account implementation in bitcoind sucks
 869 2013-12-27 15:10:49 <sipa> it's mostly unintuitive and interacts badly with backups
 870 2013-12-27 15:10:59 <wumpus> if you want to do anything serious like run a multi-user site, roll your own
 871 2013-12-27 15:11:03 <sipa> yeah
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 873 2013-12-27 15:13:00 <lianj> anyone at 30c3?
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 875 2013-12-27 15:14:58 <wallet42> sipa: can you help me with a signing issue? i d like to sign a redeem p2h transaction with multisig. i d like to construct the rawtx  and do the signing w/o bitcoind (in python). here is the accomplished mission w/ bitcoind http://pastebin.com/t1e41WbA
 876 2013-12-27 15:15:22 <wallet42> lianj: im in hall 2
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 882 2013-12-27 15:20:16 <sturles> lianj: Yes
 883 2013-12-27 15:21:24 <wallet42> sipa: i construct a unsignedTx with the original p2h  as vin scriptSig: http://pastebin.com/8s7RijsS
 884 2013-12-27 15:21:32 <mack25> morning folks
 885 2013-12-27 15:21:34 <sipa> wallet42: sorry, no time
 886 2013-12-27 15:21:36 <mack25> how yall doin?
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 910 2013-12-27 15:54:06 <tdignan> How do I run bitcoind in the foreground?
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 912 2013-12-27 15:57:32 <tdignan> nm, I had daemon=1, needed to set it back to 0
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 928 2013-12-27 16:17:18 <lianj> sturles: nice, lets meet up at some point ;)
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 943 2013-12-27 16:30:47 <sturles> I'm going for a coffee after this talk.  There are some coffee hackers at the top floor, iirc.
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 966 2013-12-27 16:44:43 <TD> good evening
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 976 2013-12-27 17:00:36 <TD> sipa: thanks for the doc update
 977 2013-12-27 17:00:41 * TD is working on a new fee estimator
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 996 2013-12-27 17:16:21 <sipa> TD: i'm working on bip37-based block propagation
 997 2013-12-27 17:16:42 <TD> bip37 is ... bloom filtering
 998 2013-12-27 17:16:43 <TD> ?
 999 2013-12-27 17:16:59 <sipa> yes
1000 2013-12-27 17:17:04 * TD can never remember :)
1001 2013-12-27 17:17:09 <TD> that's cool. though what happened to headers first?
1002 2013-12-27 17:18:07 <edcba> i guess it's second to sipa
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1004 2013-12-27 17:18:23 <sipa> both depend on that recent pullreq, but bip37 blocks are easy
1005 2013-12-27 17:18:50 <sipa> i still hope to have an up to date working headersfirst soon
1006 2013-12-27 17:19:38 <TD> ok
1007 2013-12-27 17:19:41 <TD> neat
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1057 2013-12-27 18:23:20 PigCoin has joined
1058 2013-12-27 18:23:29 <rfish> anyone understand zerocoin here and is willing to explain it?
1059 2013-12-27 18:29:02 ninjatrader33 has joined
1060 2013-12-27 18:29:56 super3 has joined
1061 2013-12-27 18:31:45 <BlueMatt> sipa: bip37 doesnt really make sense for block download, no? why do you want the filtered merkle tree instead of just the hash list (since you know you want all txn anyway)
1062 2013-12-27 18:32:33 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1063 2013-12-27 18:32:44 wallet42 has joined
1064 2013-12-27 18:33:17 <TD> BlueMatt: i think he means propagation using full match filters
1065 2013-12-27 18:33:43 <BlueMatt> yea, but it seems like the filtered merkle tree doesnt make sense for full-match filters?
1066 2013-12-27 18:34:00 <BlueMatt> you just have extra overhead to build the tree when you dont want it anyway...
1067 2013-12-27 18:36:31 <TD> you're the one who added that optimisation :)
1068 2013-12-27 18:36:45 bbrian has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1)
1069 2013-12-27 18:36:48 <TD> it's just a way to re-use the same codepaths that is convenient (sending the missing txns and things)
1070 2013-12-27 18:37:35 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
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1072 2013-12-27 18:39:02 SwampTony has joined
1073 2013-12-27 18:40:28 <BlueMatt> no, sipa did
1074 2013-12-27 18:40:36 <BlueMatt> (but was right to, for spv nodes)
1075 2013-12-27 18:40:42 <BlueMatt> yea
1076 2013-12-27 18:40:57 <BlueMatt> its probably worth it, I think the overhead is minimal, its just strange
1077 2013-12-27 18:40:58 <TD> spv nodes never do full match bloom filters. i thought that was you. well never mind
1078 2013-12-27 18:41:01 <TD> not important
1079 2013-12-27 18:41:16 <BlueMatt> oh, the full-match thing was me, yea
1080 2013-12-27 18:41:24 wallet42 has joined
1081 2013-12-27 18:41:29 dlb76 has quit ()
1082 2013-12-27 18:41:32 <BlueMatt> I think I might be the one who suggested bip37 full-downloaded first
1083 2013-12-27 18:41:58 <wallet42> anybody at 30C3?
1084 2013-12-27 18:42:04 <TD> wallet42: goonie is, i think
1085 2013-12-27 18:42:11 <TD> wallet42: author of the android bitcoin wallet
1086 2013-12-27 18:42:12 <BlueMatt> wallet42: read scrollback ;)
1087 2013-12-27 18:43:03 <lianj> TD: wallet42: yea, andreas is here
1088 2013-12-27 18:43:29 <wallet42> how can i reach him easily?
1089 2013-12-27 18:43:44 sugarpuff has joined
1090 2013-12-27 18:43:53 <lianj> privmsg goonie on irc?
1091 2013-12-27 18:43:58 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1092 2013-12-27 18:44:08 <TD> wallet42: not sure if he is online at the moment
1093 2013-12-27 18:44:16 <wallet42> i guess i mail him
1094 2013-12-27 18:44:20 <wallet42> thx
1095 2013-12-27 18:44:28 <lianj> once you see him, he isn't easily overlooked
1096 2013-12-27 18:44:40 <lianj> wallet42: where are you atm?
1097 2013-12-27 18:45:12 Gnaf has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 26.0/20131205075310])
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1100 2013-12-27 18:47:52 goedgoed has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1101 2013-12-27 18:49:29 <wallet42> yes
1102 2013-12-27 18:49:41 <wallet42> greenwald is having the keynote right this moment
1103 2013-12-27 18:50:47 ellisdenada has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1104 2013-12-27 18:51:33 <wallet42> http://streaming.media.ccc.de/saal1/native/lq/
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1107 2013-12-27 18:54:34 Liquid__ has joined
1108 2013-12-27 18:55:39 <lianj> wallet42: the tactical thing todo is find a nice free couch and watch the keynote stream from there while everyone is sitting ontop of eachothers in the keynote room ;)
1109 2013-12-27 18:56:51 <phantomcircuit> lianj, haha
1110 2013-12-27 18:56:54 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1111 2013-12-27 18:57:45 Detritus has joined
1112 2013-12-27 19:00:27 <wallet42> lianj: youre  here too?
1113 2013-12-27 19:01:00 goedgoed has joined
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1118 2013-12-27 19:11:00 <lianj> wallet42 should really get an irc bouncer...
1119 2013-12-27 19:12:04 racooniac has joined
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1125 2013-12-27 19:17:53 darsie has joined
1126 2013-12-27 19:18:03 <sugarpuff> any core devs here?
1127 2013-12-27 19:18:18 wallet42 has joined
1128 2013-12-27 19:18:36 <sugarpuff> (esp. sec related?)
1129 2013-12-27 19:18:42 <darsie> How reliably does vanitygen produce correct addresses/private keys? I mean, it's quite trivial, so should be easy to get right, IMO.
1130 2013-12-27 19:19:01 mack25 has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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1132 2013-12-27 19:22:39 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: yes? If you have something private you should potentially disclose it over gpg encrypted email anot not irc
1133 2013-12-27 19:23:00 <TD> or cryptocat!
1134 2013-12-27 19:23:07 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: actually, just sent you a reply (via email)
1135 2013-12-27 19:23:22 <sugarpuff> nice to see you here too :)
1136 2013-12-27 19:24:03 c0rw1n has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1137 2013-12-27 19:24:38 agnostic98 has joined
1138 2013-12-27 19:27:04 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: I recieved your email, but I don't see what you were sending that to bitcoin security. Although none of your ycombinator links work.
1139 2013-12-27 19:27:18 <sugarpuff> wtf
1140 2013-12-27 19:27:55 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: what do you mean they don't work?
1141 2013-12-27 19:28:32 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1142 2013-12-27 19:28:58 <gmaxwell> ah, they were garbled by mime encoding, I've got them now.
1143 2013-12-27 19:29:11 <sugarpuff> k
1144 2013-12-27 19:29:23 justanotheruser has joined
1145 2013-12-27 19:29:46 theorb has joined
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1148 2013-12-27 19:31:11 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
1149 2013-12-27 19:32:04 <gmaxwell> There was nothing that you sent which hasn't been sent publically. You should post this to bitcoin development, not bitcoin-security, but you'll likely be point to the many threads where this subject has been discussed over and over again. Including that all "fixes" have serious, difficult to analyze side effects, which may be far worse than the symptoms.
1150 2013-12-27 19:32:38 <gmaxwell> er likely be pointed.
1151 2013-12-27 19:32:48 <AriseChikun> anyone had any success in installing gitian on ubuntu in vmware to compile wallets? having loads of errors here
1152 2013-12-27 19:32:51 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: sure, i'll send it there then. ignoring the problem doesn't seem to be the right answer though. do you think it is?
1153 2013-12-27 19:33:30 sassamo_ has joined
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1155 2013-12-27 19:33:35 <BlueMatt> sugarpuff: you should probably provide context here...
1156 2013-12-27 19:33:43 <gmaxwell> hysteria about "selfish mining"
1157 2013-12-27 19:33:48 <BlueMatt> ahhh
1158 2013-12-27 19:33:49 sassamo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1159 2013-12-27 19:33:58 <BlueMatt> should've guessed
1160 2013-12-27 19:34:06 <sugarpuff> BlueMatt: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6969486
1161 2013-12-27 19:34:16 sassamo_ has joined
1162 2013-12-27 19:34:47 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: please don't dismiss this problem with the word "hysteria" unless you've got a solid reason for doing so
1163 2013-12-27 19:34:52 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: It may well be, in fact. Any "selfish mining" is trivially detectable (causes large wads of orphan blocks), and it's not currently happening.  The many of "fix it fast" solutions have had moderately severe side effects, some arguably far worse than the problem.
1164 2013-12-27 19:35:03 <BlueMatt> sugarpuff: some initial work has been engaged to address some of the issue here, namely work to decrease block propagation times among miners so you cant gain an advantage (which is required to pull the attack off)
1165 2013-12-27 19:35:14 <BlueMatt> significantly more work needs done, but it was an initial step to avoid the hysteria
1166 2013-12-27 19:35:15 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: I'm not dismissing any problem with hysteria. I'm dismissing your email as hysteria.
1167 2013-12-27 19:35:43 <BlueMatt> to fix it long-term requires significant study and simulation
1168 2013-12-27 19:35:47 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: w/e, i read it as the same thing, since you haven't made much of a distinction. is your point that it doesn't need to be fixed fast?
1169 2013-12-27 19:35:48 <gmaxwell> Sorry, don't send me vague private encrypted emails, wasting my time with "you must addresses this fast!!" crap. Thats hysteria.
1170 2013-12-27 19:36:14 <TD> yes, it doesn't need to be fixed fast
1171 2013-12-27 19:36:24 <TD> as evidenced by the fact that bitcoin is still here and this was being discussed months ago
1172 2013-12-27 19:36:26 <sugarpuff> k, do the bitcoin devs have some sort of official timeline for fixing it then?
1173 2013-12-27 19:36:33 sassamo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1174 2013-12-27 19:36:52 <sugarpuff> the fact that bitcoin is still here could just mean that the malicious pool hasn't chosen yet to make itself known
1175 2013-12-27 19:36:56 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: yes
1176 2013-12-27 19:37:02 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: It objectively doesn't need to be fixed fast, as no one is doing anything with it, and it's not even clear if its pratically exploitable at all in networks with latency and difficulty sybiling.
1177 2013-12-27 19:37:11 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: no, it is clear that there is no such pool
1178 2013-12-27 19:37:17 monolithik has joined
1179 2013-12-27 19:37:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, GBT fixes it more or less
1180 2013-12-27 19:37:32 <sugarpuff> Luke-Jr: ok, where is the proof for this?
1181 2013-12-27 19:37:53 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: ther proof is that there are no longer than expected runs of orphans.
1182 2013-12-27 19:37:56 <Luke-Jr> ^
1183 2013-12-27 19:38:17 <sugarpuff> i'm curious, what software is being used to check this?
1184 2013-12-27 19:38:24 <sugarpuff> is there a link somewhere?
1185 2013-12-27 19:38:48 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: bitcoind logs reorg events.
1186 2013-12-27 19:39:13 <TD> https://blockchain.info/charts/n-orphaned-blocks
1187 2013-12-27 19:39:24 <TD> observe the fact that orphan rate is low and stable
1188 2013-12-27 19:39:49 jtcwang has joined
1189 2013-12-27 19:39:50 <sugarpuff> except for march 30th
1190 2013-12-27 19:39:54 SwampTony has joined
1191 2013-12-27 19:40:03 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: yes, and we know what happened there, it's unrelated.
1192 2013-12-27 19:40:03 <sugarpuff> approx. march 30th
1193 2013-12-27 19:40:04 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the solution proposed by the original paper ironically made a sybil attack much easier to execute in practice
1194 2013-12-27 19:40:05 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: it'd be pretty obvious to all the miners
1195 2013-12-27 19:40:05 viperhr has joined
1196 2013-12-27 19:40:18 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: wouldn't you notice if you suddenly started losing money?
1197 2013-12-27 19:40:24 <phantomcircuit> ie their solution took the problem from theoretical and made it possible
1198 2013-12-27 19:40:27 paracyst has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1199 2013-12-27 19:40:27 cysm has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1200 2013-12-27 19:40:30 <phantomcircuit> got a good laugh at that one
1201 2013-12-27 19:40:39 <sugarpuff> i'm not support that solution
1202 2013-12-27 19:40:42 <sugarpuff> *supporting
1203 2013-12-27 19:40:56 <gmaxwell> would be nice if someone did a chart of 2-block-orphans which would nearly be zero at all times,— 2 and three deep ones is a much stronger signal for misbehavior.
1204 2013-12-27 19:41:34 <TD> there's no simple "fix", but the fix is generally things like reducing latency, decreasing centralisations of miner power, etc
1205 2013-12-27 19:41:43 <TD> so lots of hard work on optimising things
1206 2013-12-27 19:42:07 <gmaxwell> If your concern is related to mining pools doing this without the support of hashers, then luke is correct— gbt is a complete fix for that.
1207 2013-12-27 19:42:10 justanotheruser has joined
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1211 2013-12-27 19:42:14 <sugarpuff> TD: have a look at the discussion on HN and Stephen's suggestion: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=324413.msg3478147#msg3478147
1212 2013-12-27 19:42:28 <phantomcircuit> certainly for pools the biggest step is having the mining clients detect malicious pool behavior and warn the owner of the hw
1213 2013-12-27 19:42:45 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, iirc bfgminer will warn the user if they're mining on old blocks right?
1214 2013-12-27 19:42:55 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: yes, and will submit found blocks to local bitcoind
1215 2013-12-27 19:43:04 <phantomcircuit> right
1216 2013-12-27 19:43:13 <phantomcircuit> that should prevent selfish mining almost entirely
1217 2013-12-27 19:43:23 <phantomcircuit> now we just have to get people to actually do that :)
1218 2013-12-27 19:43:49 <TD> someone needs to give the website a lot of love, make a miner section
1219 2013-12-27 19:44:11 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1220 2013-12-27 19:44:25 <TD> right now how to become a miner is not really documented, so no surprise people end up not following best practices
1221 2013-12-27 19:44:45 <BlueMatt> someone needs to advertise the shit out of the relay network so that miners are all on even footing latency-wise and essentially cant possibly get any advantage
1222 2013-12-27 19:45:15 <gmaxwell> a really substantial portion of the network's hashpower is now consoidated in cloud facilities where the 'owners' don't really have the freedom to engage in better practices. ::shrugs::
1223 2013-12-27 19:45:16 <TD> "someone" needs to do lots of things
1224 2013-12-27 19:45:34 <gmaxwell> I could create a mining section ... I never thought we wanted them.
1225 2013-12-27 19:45:45 <TD> why not? the website should be much bigger
1226 2013-12-27 19:45:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: do core devs reach out to those guys to discuss their policies?
1227 2013-12-27 19:45:58 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1228 2013-12-27 19:46:02 wallet42 has joined
1229 2013-12-27 19:46:07 <TD> i'd like to see sections for how to be a miner, how to be a merchant, etc
1230 2013-12-27 19:46:12 AriseChikun has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1231 2013-12-27 19:46:13 * BlueMatt did recently re: relay network, but still
1232 2013-12-27 19:46:15 <sugarpuff> i'm unclear on the GBT comments, gmaxwell, can you link me to something about how it fixes the problem?
1233 2013-12-27 19:46:38 <edcba> TD: bitcoin adventure ! choose your character !
1234 2013-12-27 19:46:42 RoboTeddy has joined
1235 2013-12-27 19:46:51 <TD> :)
1236 2013-12-27 19:46:53 <sugarpuff> (or anyone else who knows what he's talking about)
1237 2013-12-27 19:47:09 AriseChikun has joined
1238 2013-12-27 19:47:13 <edcba> buy/sell arms & drugs with bitcoin !
1239 2013-12-27 19:47:15 <edcba> no wait...
1240 2013-12-27 19:47:57 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: You just run BFGminer like bfgminer [...put your real GBT-based pools first...] -o http://localhost:8332#allblocks -u username -p password
1241 2013-12-27 19:48:04 <gmaxwell> and it will also submit any blocks it finds locally
1242 2013-12-27 19:48:14 <gmaxwell> so a pool could not delay their announcement without your cooperation.
1243 2013-12-27 19:48:15 Scrat has joined
1244 2013-12-27 19:48:50 cysm has joined
1245 2013-12-27 19:48:57 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: I do pretty often, but they're a pain generally
1246 2013-12-27 19:49:06 _correcto_ has joined
1247 2013-12-27 19:49:10 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: the number of miners who actually care to do their job on the network are a small %
1248 2013-12-27 19:49:13 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: still not clear: you wouldn't find real blocks all by yourself, isn't that the point of a pool?
1249 2013-12-27 19:49:34 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: someone does
1250 2013-12-27 19:49:50 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1251 2013-12-27 19:49:52 paracyst has joined
1252 2013-12-27 19:50:18 <TD> Luke-Jr: because there's not much incentive for them to do so. if we started directing miners from bitcoin.org to particular "best" pools
1253 2013-12-27 19:50:32 <Luke-Jr> TD: that would be fairly political :<
1254 2013-12-27 19:50:36 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: of course you do, thats how it works.
1255 2013-12-27 19:50:54 <andytoshi> BlueMatt: i have personally witnessed gmaxwell talk to several miners on irc
1256 2013-12-27 19:51:02 <andytoshi> istm they are beligerant and don't care about best practices
1257 2013-12-27 19:51:22 <TD> Luke-Jr: we managed it for wallets
1258 2013-12-27 19:51:27 <Luke-Jr> TD: I suppose we might be able to get away with "these pools actually assert some policies of their own" and avoid debating which policies are better
1259 2013-12-27 19:51:40 <Luke-Jr> TD: we did? 99% of the wallets on bitcoin.org are still garbage
1260 2013-12-27 19:51:46 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: my understanding is that pooled mining solves easier problems, and finds blocks that aren't real solutions, but sometimes, one of the pooled miners will find a block that solves the easy and hard problem
1261 2013-12-27 19:51:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: or perhaps make a template policy document, and list ones that fill it out and keep it updated.
1262 2013-12-27 19:52:20 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: right, something like that may work
1263 2013-12-27 19:52:30 <sugarpuff> if all the miners kept their easy-solutions to themselves, how could they be compensated for their work when someone else finds the real one?
1264 2013-12-27 19:52:32 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: yes, but that doesnt mean they're not willing to do basic things, even if not complicated bitcoind modifications themselves
1265 2013-12-27 19:52:34 <TD> Luke-Jr: lol, nice. we're pushing users towards SPV wallets at least.
1266 2013-12-27 19:52:36 <Luke-Jr> .. as long as "we just trust the core devs" isn't an option
1267 2013-12-27 19:52:38 <TD> Luke-Jr: and it makes a big difference.
1268 2013-12-27 19:52:45 <TD> Luke-Jr: otherwise everyone would end up on b.i
1269 2013-12-27 19:52:54 <Luke-Jr> TD: and every SPV wallet AFAIK has major problems causing user confusion
1270 2013-12-27 19:53:02 <TD> s/SPV//
1271 2013-12-27 19:53:17 <BlueMatt> andytoshi: set of people coming to irc to ask questions != set of people mining, I was asking about outreach, not just answering questions
1272 2013-12-27 19:53:31 <sugarpuff> there needs to be a page somewhere that directly addresses the danger posed by selfish mining
1273 2013-12-27 19:53:33 <Luke-Jr> TD: fair enough, though IMO Bitcoin-Qt is lightyears ahead
1274 2013-12-27 19:53:37 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: That isn't whats suggested. Whats suggested is that hashers just submit full solutions to the network independantly.
1275 2013-12-27 19:53:49 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: how long have you been using bitcoin?
1276 2013-12-27 19:53:51 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: why? it's not even a vulnerability
1277 2013-12-27 19:54:05 Applicat_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1278 2013-12-27 19:54:14 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: real problems get cataloged on http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/CVEs
1279 2013-12-27 19:54:17 roconnor has joined
1280 2013-12-27 19:54:21 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: In my estimation selfish mining wouldn't make the top 10 list of existential risk concerns for bitcoin, not even if the list were limited to only technical ones.
1281 2013-12-27 19:54:37 <TD> it's unusable because it's full mode only
1282 2013-12-27 19:54:45 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: ok, fine, but i haven't seen an "official response" to their paper
1283 2013-12-27 19:54:47 <Luke-Jr> TD: I use it regularly.
1284 2013-12-27 19:54:51 <gmaxwell> Particularly because its trivially detectable.
1285 2013-12-27 19:54:54 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: because it doesn't deserve one?
1286 2013-12-27 19:55:03 <sugarpuff> Luke-Jr: i think it does
1287 2013-12-27 19:55:10 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: then write one.
1288 2013-12-27 19:55:20 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: and note it wouldn't be official no matter who wrote it.
1289 2013-12-27 19:55:24 <sugarpuff> heh, i'd love to, but the explanations given here so far are too slim on details
1290 2013-12-27 19:55:26 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin has no 'official'
1291 2013-12-27 19:55:42 <sugarpuff> "official" = in the code, or planned to be in the code
1292 2013-12-27 19:55:44 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: then do some research, this has been discussed _extensively_ elsewhere.
1293 2013-12-27 19:55:52 <gmaxwell> Nothing is planned to be changed in the code.
1294 2013-12-27 19:55:56 <gmaxwell> (wrt this)
1295 2013-12-27 19:55:57 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: i have been doing research on this for two days now
1296 2013-12-27 19:56:07 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: How long have you been using Bitcoin? Three days?
1297 2013-12-27 19:56:15 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: what do you mean by "using"?
1298 2013-12-27 19:56:26 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: what code?
1299 2013-12-27 19:56:34 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: I'm suggesting that you're lacking a bit of perspective here and have fallen into a hype trap.
1300 2013-12-27 19:56:45 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: i read the first paper possibly the same year it was released, and have bitcoins from 2011
1301 2013-12-27 19:56:45 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: there is no problem with the code
1302 2013-12-27 19:57:10 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: fine. but then show me the reason _why_ what you're saying is true.
1303 2013-12-27 19:57:34 <sugarpuff> Luke-Jr: you can say that all you want
1304 2013-12-27 19:57:54 <sugarpuff> Luke-Jr: but that doesn't mean anything.  a proof is needed to show that.
1305 2013-12-27 19:57:57 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: What are you looking for? We pointed out how its trivial to detect and that you can detect it yourself.
1306 2013-12-27 19:58:05 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: no, the onus of proof is on the one making an assertion.
1307 2013-12-27 19:58:12 <sugarpuff> Luke-Jr: they did
1308 2013-12-27 19:58:14 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: you assert there is a problem or code needs to be changed.
1309 2013-12-27 19:58:21 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: no, their "proof" is nonsense
1310 2013-12-27 19:58:40 drayah has joined
1311 2013-12-27 19:58:43 <sugarpuff> Luke-Jr: i don't think it is, and at least they have one
1312 2013-12-27 19:59:07 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: in any case, /ignore sugarpuff seems easiest now.
1313 2013-12-27 20:00:23 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: is the y-axis here the number of orphaned blocks across the entire network (i.e. the number increments even for the same block that was orphaned if another peer orphaned it too)? https://blockchain.info/charts/n-orphaned-blocks
1314 2013-12-27 20:00:52 <sugarpuff> Luke-Jr: stick your head in the sand instead of having a discussion.
1315 2013-12-27 20:01:32 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: and in your research you must have seen that virtually every proposed improvement recieved reviews that pointed out how the "improvement" would actually introduce serious vulnerabilities.  A panic deployment of complicated and difficult to analyize "fixes" for a problem which demonstrable doesn't exist today, and which— if it arose would not be immediately harmful— would be incredibly irresponsible.
1316 2013-12-27 20:02:23 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: ok, i agree on that point, if it's true that "if it arose would not be immediately harmful", and i might give that to you. i just want to know if this problem is being addressed, and if so, how.
1317 2013-12-27 20:02:32 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: it appears to be a pure count of orphaned blocks.  Looking at your own logs is more prudent.
1318 2013-12-27 20:03:51 <Luke-Jr> sugarpuff: the problem cannot exist with the newer GBT mining protocol
1319 2013-12-27 20:03:56 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: As far as I can determine there appear to be no proposed solutions which are less risky / compromise-free than simply worrying about it if it starts to happen.
1320 2013-12-27 20:04:03 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: sure, it can, if the hashers cooperate.
1321 2013-12-27 20:04:11 <Luke-Jr> well, then you have a deeper problem ;p
1322 2013-12-27 20:04:39 <Luke-Jr> if miners want to kill bitcoin, we can't really do anything about that
1323 2013-12-27 20:05:10 <sugarpuff> Luke-Jr: that's not true. again, read Stephen's advice: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=324413.msg3478147#msg3478147
1324 2013-12-27 20:05:19 <gmaxwell> sure, thats part of the argument against the paper being interesting. Basically it makes a boiling the frog argument for miners becoming evil incrementally.
1325 2013-12-27 20:06:04 <sugarpuff> knowing that someone is doing this doesn't get you very far. you need to know *who* is doing it, and then you need to be able to ban them from the network.
1326 2013-12-27 20:06:12 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: that proposed "fix" is flawed because it can create disagreements about the consensus state based on when a node was turned on, or what side of a short term partition it was on.
1327 2013-12-27 20:06:31 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: Are you being paid to waste our time? It sure seems like it.
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1329 2013-12-27 20:06:50 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: god, why the hostility??
1330 2013-12-27 20:07:08 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin mining is an anonymous process, it can't be decenteralized otherwise. The whole idea of banning someone from it is ill defined.
1331 2013-12-27 20:07:39 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: because you appear to be uninformed about the basic technology and yet you are _yelling_ in here with these high and mighty commandments about who needs to do what.
1332 2013-12-27 20:07:43 <warren> sugarpuff: this has already been discussed at length.  The allegation is very similar to something posted years ago.  The conditions necessary for this attack to work are nearly impossible in reality.
1333 2013-12-27 20:08:20 <sugarpuff> warren: then please link me to such a discussion. i have been reading those i could find and am not convinced yet.
1334 2013-12-27 20:09:04 yubrew has joined
1335 2013-12-27 20:09:11 correcto has joined
1336 2013-12-27 20:09:18 <warren> Trivially detectable, proposed solutions would make things worse, etc.
1337 2013-12-27 20:09:50 <sugarpuff> warren: notice that what you just said is not a solution to the problem.
1338 2013-12-27 20:10:13 <warren> the "problem"
1339 2013-12-27 20:10:32 <sugarpuff> and notice that your statement is also contradicted by gmaxwell's comment: "Bitcoin mining is an anonymous process, it can't be decenteralized otherwise. The whole idea of banning someone from it is ill defined."
1340 2013-12-27 20:10:55 <gmaxwell> No it isn't.
1341 2013-12-27 20:11:04 <DiabloD3> dear god just ban him
1342 2013-12-27 20:11:19 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: "No it isn't." …. how?
1343 2013-12-27 20:11:25 knotwork_ has joined
1344 2013-12-27 20:11:43 <DiabloD3> BlueMatt: thank you
1345 2013-12-27 20:12:09 <gmaxwell> I feel kinda bad at that outcome, I'm sure its earnest care, if misplaced. It's good to have more people care.
1346 2013-12-27 20:12:27 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: they can care in other channels
1347 2013-12-27 20:12:33 <gmaxwell> ... bad if their hyperactive care is indistinguishable from a shill trying to undermine bitcoin by driving people insane. :P
1348 2013-12-27 20:12:38 <DiabloD3> #bitcoin is perfect for noob wrangling
1349 2013-12-27 20:12:44 <BlueMatt> agreed, but there is a point where its not worth explaining further (has there been any statement in the past 20 minutes that wasnt just a repeat?)
1350 2013-12-27 20:13:00 * DiabloD3 relurks
1351 2013-12-27 20:13:22 <gmaxwell> yea, indeed, oh well, to live and learn. In the future I think instead of arguing at all I'll just drop a bunch of links and then ignore unless something interesting is said.
1352 2013-12-27 20:13:27 <Luke-Jr> tomorrow's headline: "Bitcoin developers silence inquiry about status of fixing major vulnerability"
1353 2013-12-27 20:13:28 <Luke-Jr> <.<
1354 2013-12-27 20:13:50 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1355 2013-12-27 20:13:51 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1356 2013-12-27 20:13:53 <DiabloD3> what vuln?
1357 2013-12-27 20:14:02 <DiabloD3> bitcoin isnt even a network protocol
1358 2013-12-27 20:14:05 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: my favorite: https://encyclopediadramatica.es/Bitcoin#IRC
1359 2013-12-27 20:14:11 <DiabloD3> its a communications protocol, but not a network one
1360 2013-12-27 20:14:21 <gmaxwell> FWIW, the post I'd made previously about using local block submission https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=325737.0
1361 2013-12-27 20:14:23 <DiabloD3> I could import blocks by hand to an airgapped machine if I felt like coding that shit
1362 2013-12-27 20:14:50 <DiabloD3> lol or qrcodes and webcams
1363 2013-12-27 20:14:56 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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1372 2013-12-27 20:23:33 TheButterZone has joined
1373 2013-12-27 20:24:26 <TheButterZone> can somebody rip this latest web wallet operator a new asshole https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=387106.0
1374 2013-12-27 20:25:51 <gmaxwell> TheButterZone: "hacked" is the correct phrase, not hacked.  "Hacked" expresses the very high probability that the hacking was an insider running off with the funds.
1375 2013-12-27 20:26:16 <TheButterZone> see post #4
1376 2013-12-27 20:26:39 wallet42 has joined
1377 2013-12-27 20:27:08 <jcorgan> where does the forum "Trust: " value come from?
1378 2013-12-27 20:27:40 <justanotheruser> TheButterZone: it looks like you already did
1379 2013-12-27 20:28:08 <TheButterZone> i dont have the knowhow to deconstruct his defense
1380 2013-12-27 20:28:20 <TheButterZone> all i can say is "you are not a perfect human being"
1381 2013-12-27 20:28:31 <jcorgan> LOL: "also, i know all mistakes which other developers' can do when writing code, so i dont do them!"
1382 2013-12-27 20:28:33 <kuzetsa> TheButterZone: the feedback they sent you really seems like they have a point --> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=157527
1383 2013-12-27 20:28:50 Keefe has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1384 2013-12-27 20:29:01 <kuzetsa> you didn't audit their codebase, just jumped right in with FUD without even asking what their security model is, and only claimed / assumed it was poorly executed.
1385 2013-12-27 20:29:07 <justanotheruser> TheButterZone: I wouldn't worry too much. You aren't responsible for those who are careless with their money.
1386 2013-12-27 20:29:08 BurtyB has joined
1387 2013-12-27 20:29:10 brson has joined
1388 2013-12-27 20:29:25 <TheButterZone> there is no security model that cant be "hacked"
1389 2013-12-27 20:29:31 Keefe has joined
1390 2013-12-27 20:29:43 Ostkaka has quit (Quit: is only smells)
1391 2013-12-27 20:29:44 <kuzetsa> TheButterZone: yes there is, actually
1392 2013-12-27 20:29:48 <kuzetsa> more than one
1393 2013-12-27 20:30:33 <jcorgan> just ask him where transactions from the wallet are signed
1394 2013-12-27 20:30:35 <kuzetsa> I've helped audit a few valid security models for this sort of thing, so I know firsthand there are ways to make it zero-trust and safe
1395 2013-12-27 20:30:52 Application has joined
1396 2013-12-27 20:31:02 <BlueMatt> kuzetsa: so far I havent seen one
1397 2013-12-27 20:31:15 <BlueMatt> no webwallets Ive seen have even remotely reasonable security
1398 2013-12-27 20:31:30 <kuzetsa> yeah :/
1399 2013-12-27 20:31:43 <kuzetsa> it's a shame I'm bound by non-discloure agreements
1400 2013-12-27 20:31:45 <TheButterZone> youve audited security for web wallet that makes it absolutely impossible for the operator to access the site's own wallets?
1401 2013-12-27 20:31:57 <BlueMatt> afaik, if its in chrome, there is no way to prevent auto-update, which means its not remotely recommendable for security
1402 2013-12-27 20:32:35 <kuzetsa> TheButterZone: yes.
1403 2013-12-27 20:33:04 <robonerd> anyone here run a bitcoin web site?
1404 2013-12-27 20:33:08 <kuzetsa> it's not like I'm likely to go to jail or anything for discussing the details, but I don't want to get sued so I'm honoring my NDA
1405 2013-12-27 20:33:34 <BlueMatt> which means, by definition, a webwallet without some non-web component is not secure in the sense that I would recommend it for holing large funds
1406 2013-12-27 20:34:10 <devrandom> on an related topic, I'm trying to promote the use of p2sh - starting with blockchain.info: https://github.com/blockchain/My-Wallet/pull/59
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1409 2013-12-27 20:36:14 <kuzetsa> BlueMatt: the most I'm willing to hint is that the entropy sources used by the secure & zero trust model I'm talking about really does use more than 100 bits of entropy for key generation, and the private key is not accessable by the node (equiv. webwallet) operator
1410 2013-12-27 20:36:40 drayah has joined
1411 2013-12-27 20:37:06 <kuzetsa> BlueMatt: it's similar to the discussion from this thread, but not quite the same --> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81677.msg1032856#msg1032856
1412 2013-12-27 20:37:28 <BlueMatt> kuzetsa: if the signing is done in the browser, the browser has access to the keys necessary to sign, and auto-update is enabled, you're fucked
1413 2013-12-27 20:37:36 <BlueMatt> there are many ways to build a webwallet that is awesome and secure
1414 2013-12-27 20:37:41 <BlueMatt> but all of them involve non-web components
1415 2013-12-27 20:37:53 <devrandom> P2SH FTW ;)
1416 2013-12-27 20:37:58 <BlueMatt> yup
1417 2013-12-27 20:38:14 FabianB_ has joined
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1419 2013-12-27 20:38:49 <kuzetsa> BlueMatt: I'm not sure what you mean by "auto-update"
1420 2013-12-27 20:39:23 <BlueMatt> update-without-user-interaction
1421 2013-12-27 20:39:23 coiners has joined
1422 2013-12-27 20:39:38 <BlueMatt> ie can push new javascript, can update the plugin, etc
1423 2013-12-27 20:39:52 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1424 2013-12-27 20:39:53 <BlueMatt> afaik there is no way to put code in chrome that you cant auto-update without user interaction
1425 2013-12-27 20:40:13 <devrandom> I thought you could turn off auto-update on plugins
1426 2013-12-27 20:40:23 <BlueMatt> I believe you can, but have you ever?
1427 2013-12-27 20:40:41 <BlueMatt> hmm...no I'm not sure
1428 2013-12-27 20:40:45 <BlueMatt> at least its not obvious how
1429 2013-12-27 20:40:51 <devrandom> true
1430 2013-12-27 20:40:52 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1431 2013-12-27 20:40:57 <devrandom> need better trust models
1432 2013-12-27 20:41:07 haqe17 has joined
1433 2013-12-27 20:41:16 <devrandom> gitian-downloader in the browser
1434 2013-12-27 20:41:19 mbelshe has joined
1435 2013-12-27 20:41:29 tmsk has joined
1436 2013-12-27 20:41:33 <BlueMatt> yupyup
1437 2013-12-27 20:41:46 <BlueMatt> devrandom: any news on how tor is getting along with gitian?
1438 2013-12-27 20:42:01 <devrandom> I haven't heard anything
1439 2013-12-27 20:42:06 <BlueMatt> appelbaum just mentioned the next tbb would have det. builds
1440 2013-12-27 20:42:07 <TD> hmm. my fee estimator is estimating 20ksat per kb :(
1441 2013-12-27 20:42:10 <devrandom> the dev hasn't actually contacted me about anything
1442 2013-12-27 20:42:15 <TD> that's the median fee to get included in the next block
1443 2013-12-27 20:42:26 <BlueMatt> TD: are you looking at blocks or mempool?
1444 2013-12-27 20:42:30 <TD> devrandom: yeah the tor guys have been making firefox deterministic
1445 2013-12-27 20:42:39 <devrandom> I saw that part
1446 2013-12-27 20:42:48 <TD> BlueMatt: this is based on gavins framework. it's watching txns that show up in the mempool and recording how many blocks it takes before they confirm
1447 2013-12-27 20:43:08 <TD> BlueMatt: then it tracks the median for each block interval across a bunch of samples
1448 2013-12-27 20:43:29 <BlueMatt> TD: yea, reasonable framework
1449 2013-12-27 20:43:36 <devrandom> BlueMatt: TBB3.0 was built with gitian a few months ago, but it's not prod yet
1450 2013-12-27 20:43:48 transito has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1451 2013-12-27 20:43:48 <TD> BlueMatt: i guess the question is - if you can see transactions paying the min fee getting confirmed in the next block
1452 2013-12-27 20:43:50 <TheButterZone> jcorgan he answered "Transaction's are signed on Wallify"
1453 2013-12-27 20:43:55 <BlueMatt> devrandom: ahh, ok, I just wondered if they had succeeded on windows/osx
1454 2013-12-27 20:44:03 <TD> BlueMatt: why would you want to pay higher than that? i'm checking the median, but i'm wondering why not just pick the lowest you've seen?
1455 2013-12-27 20:44:11 <TD> or the 10th percentile or something
1456 2013-12-27 20:44:11 <devrandom> oh, 3.5 is out
1457 2013-12-27 20:44:36 spirals_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1458 2013-12-27 20:45:08 <TD> i'll leave it and see if it converges on a lower value with more data
1459 2013-12-27 20:45:29 <devrandom> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/3688
1460 2013-12-27 20:45:32 <devrandom> "fixed"
1461 2013-12-27 20:45:38 <TD> but there sure are a surprising number of people paying more than the min fee, given that many blocks aren't full
1462 2013-12-27 20:45:41 <AriseChikun> hi, anyone know of any linux or windows builds that have ming w or gitian already isntalled with deps?
1463 2013-12-27 20:45:44 <TD> perhaps nodes that never upgraded past the fee drop
1464 2013-12-27 20:46:03 <devrandom> BlueMatt: so I guess TBB with gitian is in production
1465 2013-12-27 20:46:56 <BlueMatt> TD: yea, I think the original recommendation that was largely agreed upon (that gavin appears to have forgotten/ignored) was to look at the minimum fee getting accepted into blocks which you had seen in mempool (+ a few steps or so, eg 10th percentile)
1466 2013-12-27 20:47:04 <BlueMatt> devrandom: awesome
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1470 2013-12-27 20:48:15 <BlueMatt> TD: oh, wait, no sorry
1471 2013-12-27 20:48:24 <BlueMatt> TD: its max fee thats /not/ getting accepted and then add a bit
1472 2013-12-27 20:48:33 <BlueMatt> TD: solves the miners-separate-contracts issue as well
1473 2013-12-27 20:49:12 goedgoed has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1474 2013-12-27 20:49:49 <TD> what do you define as "not getting accepted"
1475 2013-12-27 20:50:06 <BlueMatt> ie its sitting in mempool and never getting into a block after being in mempool for X blocks
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1488 2013-12-27 20:51:34 <TD> how is that different to watching for the min that does?
1489 2013-12-27 20:52:42 <BlueMatt> miners are free to (and some do) have deals with specific tx generators to add txn to blocks for separate fees
1490 2013-12-27 20:52:48 goedgoed has joined
1491 2013-12-27 20:53:10 <BlueMatt> and those txn are usually also in mempool, so you may see ones that have a fee that you dont entirely see
1492 2013-12-27 20:55:56 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1493 2013-12-27 20:56:22 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: cfields has gitian building mac bins now
1494 2013-12-27 20:56:33 <devrandom> nice
1495 2013-12-27 20:57:10 drayah has joined
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1498 2013-12-27 20:59:30 <TD> BlueMatt: mm. i thought most miner deals kept them out of the mempool. but at any rate, "go under and add a bit" feels a bit flakier than "take the nth percentile of what is working"
1499 2013-12-27 20:59:38 monolithik has joined
1500 2013-12-27 21:00:14 <BlueMatt> TD: the other point brought up was that miners who want to increase the percentile can throw in a ton of few medium-fee txn at the top of the block
1501 2013-12-27 21:00:32 <BlueMatt> TD: so you have to only look at the txn in the block that were in your mempool
1502 2013-12-27 21:00:42 <TD> that's what gavin's framework already does
1503 2013-12-27 21:00:47 <BlueMatt> ahh, ok, good
1504 2013-12-27 21:00:48 <TD> for a tx to be considered, you have to broadcast it
1505 2013-12-27 21:01:25 <BlueMatt> well, thats still pretty reasonable
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1508 2013-12-27 21:02:42 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: cross compiled?  free of Apple's binary blobs?
1509 2013-12-27 21:03:06 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: you can never eliminate all of Apple's blobs..
1510 2013-12-27 21:03:10 <Luke-Jr> gotta link to their libs
1511 2013-12-27 21:03:13 Coincidental has joined
1512 2013-12-27 21:03:15 <Luke-Jr> but yes, cross-compiled
1513 2013-12-27 21:03:22 <devrandom> right
1514 2013-12-27 21:03:25 <devrandom> great
1515 2013-12-27 21:03:27 yubrew has joined
1516 2013-12-27 21:03:59 <Luke-Jr> and the blobs that are needed are a gratis download
1517 2013-12-27 21:04:39 <devrandom> hopefully enough people keep copies
1518 2013-12-27 21:04:41 <TD> BlueMatt: yeah. gavin's current code does something slightly different. it just treats all transactions the same and looks at the fee paid to be higher or lower than the given fraction
1519 2013-12-27 21:05:00 <AriseChikun> Luke-Jr, was wondering, u cross compiled on ubuntu in vbox before? seems the virtualisation isnt running properly where on vmware it is on the same cpu
1520 2013-12-27 21:05:16 <Luke-Jr> AriseChikun: nope
1521 2013-12-27 21:05:25 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: it's not redistributable.
1522 2013-12-27 21:05:40 <BlueMatt> TD: hmm?
1523 2013-12-27 21:05:44 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: in fact, every download is different
1524 2013-12-27 21:06:07 <devrandom> well, hopefully not too different, or the result would be diff?
1525 2013-12-27 21:06:21 <Luke-Jr> not too diff
1526 2013-12-27 21:06:32 <Luke-Jr> nothing from the blobs should directly get into the outputs
1527 2013-12-27 21:06:32 <AriseChikun> ah fair enough, seems quite a few on the forums had trouble compiling for windows too heh
1528 2013-12-27 21:06:44 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: I see
1529 2013-12-27 21:06:49 toffoo has joined
1530 2013-12-27 21:07:01 <devrandom> well, at least someone has to archive these in case we are trying to reproduce an old build
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1532 2013-12-27 21:08:12 <TD> devrandom: did you invent the gitian approach?
1533 2013-12-27 21:08:32 <BlueMatt> devrandom wrote gitian
1534 2013-12-27 21:08:41 <devrandom> although I think there must be literature about similar stuff from earlier
1535 2013-12-27 21:08:56 <TD> yeah. i was wondering if it would not be easier to do what the truecrypt guy did, and just compile then examine a bindiff to ignore known-good differences
1536 2013-12-27 21:09:04 <TD> he was able to reproduce a build that wasn't designed to be reproducible that way
1537 2013-12-27 21:09:20 <TD> he just matched compiler / lib versions then looked at the differences, and saw that they were timestamps etc
1538 2013-12-27 21:09:23 <phantomcircuit> TD, Luke-Jr has an rpc call to prioritize a tx in the mempool, so the side deals would be arranged that way
1539 2013-12-27 21:09:45 Intelftw has joined
1540 2013-12-27 21:09:47 <devrandom> TD: would that be automatable?
1541 2013-12-27 21:10:58 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
1542 2013-12-27 21:11:10 <TD> i guess so. assuming you have a place where you can get compilers of a particular version, etc.
1543 2013-12-27 21:11:18 goedgoed has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1544 2013-12-27 21:11:35 <devrandom> there's two parts to gitian
1545 2013-12-27 21:11:43 andytoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1546 2013-12-27 21:11:43 <devrandom> one is getting a repeatable build environment
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1548 2013-12-27 21:11:53 <devrandom> and the other is removing non-determinism in output
1549 2013-12-27 21:12:00 <devrandom> the second is really up to each project
1550 2013-12-27 21:12:27 <devrandom> so the second part could be replaced with something that canonicalizes the output instead of trying to build it determistic
1551 2013-12-27 21:12:54 <devrandom> so I think the tools would be useful in both approaches
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1553 2013-12-27 21:13:25 <devrandom> also, might want to mix the approaches... might be easy to remove timestamps with a couple of command line faketime invocations
1554 2013-12-27 21:13:45 <devrandom> but compiler non-determinism might be easier to resolve through inspection and canonicalization
1555 2013-12-27 21:14:07 <TD> yeah
1556 2013-12-27 21:14:19 <TD> from what i understand the bulk of the work with firefox was removing timestamps and things
1557 2013-12-27 21:14:50 <Luke-Jr> personally, I prefer gitian's approach
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1559 2013-12-27 21:15:15 <Luke-Jr> it enables more than mere verification :p
1560 2013-12-27 21:15:23 <Luke-Jr> ie, mixing and matching parts from different builders
1561 2013-12-27 21:16:21 <devrandom> I'm not sure what "matching parts" means in this context...
1562 2013-12-27 21:17:02 <TD> wouldn't that be a no-op
1563 2013-12-27 21:17:56 <Intelftw> Hello, are there any stratum miners that have debug output of block assembling steps like merkle hash etc? I'm making a poolserver and can't seem to get byte order right ;/
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1573 2013-12-27 21:36:38 <TD> there seem to be a really lot of people who still pay 50ksat per kb
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1575 2013-12-27 21:39:08 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: ie, after 5 of my friends has built X, just bittorrent-style download it from them
1576 2013-12-27 21:39:56 <Luke-Jr> Intelftw: could just look at how Eloipool does it <.<
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1578 2013-12-27 21:41:05 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: oh, you are saying that with TD's approach, the binaries don't match so they can't be signed by diff builders?
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1581 2013-12-27 21:41:38 <TD> well, you can still sign. you just take the canonical maintainer binaries, check the diffs are all explainable, then sign the maintainers build
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1584 2013-12-27 21:42:02 <devrandom> right
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1587 2013-12-27 21:42:37 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: you can't combine the different binaries as well
1588 2013-12-27 21:42:44 <Luke-Jr> I'd get 1/5th from each friend
1589 2013-12-27 21:42:46 <Luke-Jr> and combine them :D
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1591 2013-12-27 21:43:40 <devrandom> sorry, my imagination is failing me... how would that work?
1592 2013-12-27 21:44:55 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: ?
1593 2013-12-27 21:45:05 <devrandom> how do you combine different binaries?
1594 2013-12-27 21:45:10 <Luke-Jr> if the file is 1 MB, download 205 KB from each friend
1595 2013-12-27 21:45:18 <Luke-Jr> they wouldn't be different :p
1596 2013-12-27 21:45:19 <Luke-Jr> that's the point
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1598 2013-12-27 21:45:39 <Luke-Jr> TD's approach (compare ignoring differences) fails this use case
1599 2013-12-27 21:45:41 <Luke-Jr> gitian's works
1600 2013-12-27 21:45:58 <devrandom> as TD says, you can just canonicalize the binary even in the "accept differences" approach
1601 2013-12-27 21:46:01 <phantomcircuit> 100% deterministic builds are very useful for making stuff easier
1602 2013-12-27 21:46:13 <phantomcircuit> it's going to be pretty hard to explain all the differences automaticlaly
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1604 2013-12-27 21:46:16 <phantomcircuit> automatically*
1605 2013-12-27 21:46:26 <devrandom> each friend compares to a canonical friend, and distributes that copy
1606 2013-12-27 21:46:26 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: it might not run that way
1607 2013-12-27 21:46:32 <BlueMatt> well, if its all timestamps you can make simple filters...
1608 2013-12-27 21:46:35 <BlueMatt> otherwise, dunno
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1610 2013-12-27 21:46:56 <Luke-Jr> also, keep in mind GCC uses a random value for things
1611 2013-12-27 21:47:01 <Luke-Jr> gitian works because it seeds it
1612 2013-12-27 21:47:05 <devrandom> I think phantomcircuit is right though, some branch reorgs that compilers do might be hard to auto-reason about
1613 2013-12-27 21:47:10 <Luke-Jr> but without the seeding, it's pretty unfixable
1614 2013-12-27 21:47:11 <kuzetsa> TD: yes, a lot of people still pay 50k satoshi per kb, including the hardcoded setting for a manual pool payout as configured by Eleuthria on btcguild (I asked a while ago why the fee for a manual payout was still 0.0005 instead of 0.0001, and the official answer was "because 0.0001 is too low")
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1616 2013-12-27 21:48:28 <TD> and why is it too low?
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1620 2013-12-27 21:50:03 <kuzetsa> TD: I didn't feel like arguing or asking
1621 2013-12-27 21:50:37 <kuzetsa> but my guess is because of how much electricity it takes to mine a block, average transactions per block, and how (in)efficient the currently deployed ASIC mining hardware is
1622 2013-12-27 21:50:53 <Luke-Jr> 0.0005 BTC is too low because it doesn't stop spammers and most miners are too unconcerned to bother using better filters
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1624 2013-12-27 21:51:31 <kuzetsa> Luke-Jr: your opinion about the definition of spam isn't one I agree with.
1625 2013-12-27 21:51:44 <kuzetsa> I'd rather not discuss it.
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1632 2013-12-27 21:58:25 <gmaxwell> I don't think you need to get into arguing luke's definition of spam— it's easy enough to point to things which make 2 or 4 transactions where 1 or 2 would suffice as evidence that people aren't behaving super-efficiently. (e.g. coinbase's 'from' address emulation)
1633 2013-12-27 22:00:24 <TD> why are there so many 0.8.1 nodes out there, according to lukes charts?
1634 2013-12-27 22:00:25 <TD> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html
1635 2013-12-27 22:01:41 <gmaxwell> TD: my belief is that its because that was the "omg you must update at least this high because of the hardfork!" version, until the huge surge in popularity a couple months ago they were about 80% of the nodes.
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1637 2013-12-27 22:02:03 <gmaxwell> those numbers don't make a lot of sense, now that I've looked at them.
1638 2013-12-27 22:02:11 <gmaxwell> I suspect those are all-historic and not just recent.
1639 2013-12-27 22:03:04 <TD> yeah
1640 2013-12-27 22:03:17 <TD> getaddr.bitnodes.io says they'll add a version graph soon
1641 2013-12-27 22:03:39 <gmaxwell> you can just grab their data, it's a SQLlite db.
1642 2013-12-27 22:04:07 * TD is too lazy right now
1643 2013-12-27 22:04:11 <TD> i'll wait until they add the grah
1644 2013-12-27 22:04:14 <TD> *graph
1645 2013-12-27 22:04:18 <gmaxwell>  select user_agent,count(user_agent) from nodes_version group by user_agent;
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1649 2013-12-27 22:07:46 <gmaxwell> TD: http://0bin.net/paste/f6FAR7MNyZfh8fo+#27ipxfbvMWakB/iqcMA7lEdyg4rwd3DkUhkS6kNhO3E=
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1651 2013-12-27 22:08:36 <gmaxwell> they must be excluding older nodes, since they certantly do exist.
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1661 2013-12-27 22:14:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: how don't they make sense?
1662 2013-12-27 22:14:23 <Luke-Jr> should only be nodes seen in the last week
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1665 2013-12-27 22:14:59 <Luke-Jr> 54k 0.8.1, 53k 0.8.5, 17k 0.8.6, 13k 0.8.3
1666 2013-12-27 22:15:02 <Luke-Jr> makes sense to me *shrug*
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1669 2013-12-27 22:16:53 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Hm, so explain the difference with bitnodes.io then? :)
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1672 2013-12-27 22:18:42 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no idea, first I've even heard of them
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1704 2013-12-27 22:59:46 <Intelftw> I'm don't want to be annoying but I can't solve this for hours. The stratum communication example on slush website has different prev block hash than on the chain explorer. How is this possible? Are there some other types of block hashes?
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1717 2013-12-27 23:18:16 <sipa> BlueMatt: the overhead of bip37 for full match is something like 1 bit per transaction, plus maybe 20 bytes per block or so
1718 2013-12-27 23:18:22 <sipa> over just sending the txid list
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1721 2013-12-27 23:22:42 <sipa> BlueMatt: sorry, 2 bits per transaction and 10 bytes per block :)
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1723 2013-12-27 23:23:06 <sipa> not worth defining a new protocol for, especially if there's an implementation optimization server side possible
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1748 2013-12-27 23:46:25 <ahmedbodi__> Intelftw: if ur on about stratum hash's outputted from template_registry.py
1749 2013-12-27 23:46:29 <ahmedbodi__> thats the share hash
1750 2013-12-27 23:46:43 <ahmedbodi__> its then converted into a block hash in a later stage if im right
1751 2013-12-27 23:47:11 <Intelftw> I solved it. It is reversed every 4 bytes
1752 2013-12-27 23:47:22 <Intelftw> dunno why...
1753 2013-12-27 23:47:25 <ahmedbodi__> do any of u guys have an idea how i can check for a http 500 from the coind?
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1756 2013-12-27 23:48:09 <ahmedbodi__> that way i can output in stratum about a wrong user/pass rather than an anoying meaningless traceback
1757 2013-12-27 23:49:03 <sipa> ahmedbodi__: catch the exception, and return something more appropriate instead>
1758 2013-12-27 23:49:20 <sipa> without context, it's hard to say what "check for http 500" means
1759 2013-12-27 23:49:38 <ahmedbodi__> e.g. a bad username/password
1760 2013-12-27 23:49:47 <ahmedbodi__> its never caught in the current exceptions
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1762 2013-12-27 23:50:29 <ahmedbodi__> https://github.com/ahmedbodi/stratum-mining/blob/master/mining/__init__.py#l60-77
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1767 2013-12-27 23:54:24 <ahmedbodi__> im wanting to check for when a user puts a bad user/pass for a coind
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