1 2013-12-29 00:00:18 <sipa> warren: not fail connections, but fail to detect that connections were dropped
   2 2013-12-29 00:00:31 <sipa> in some cases
   3 2013-12-29 00:00:39 wtrocki has joined
   4 2013-12-29 00:00:40 <sipa> and that may still be the case
   5 2013-12-29 00:01:16 <warren> we have 0.8.6 windows reports
   6 2013-12-29 00:01:19 <CodeShark> are there differences in how OSes handle this case?
   7 2013-12-29 00:01:46 <warren> no real difference from 0.8.5 where there were no problems except we upgraded to match the boost version in bitcoin master
   8 2013-12-29 00:02:09 <sipa> CodeShark: perhaps
   9 2013-12-29 00:02:11 nsh has joined
  10 2013-12-29 00:02:16 <warren> no complaints on mac and linux
  11 2013-12-29 00:02:17 nsh has quit (Changing host)
  12 2013-12-29 00:02:17 nsh has joined
  13 2013-12-29 00:02:26 <sipa> the problem is that bitcoind virtually never writes without reading something
  14 2013-12-29 00:02:38 <sipa> and the OS may need an attempted write to detect a dropped connection
  15 2013-12-29 00:03:02 <CodeShark> we could insert periodic pings, no?
  16 2013-12-29 00:03:06 Guyver2 has quit (Quit: :))
  17 2013-12-29 00:03:29 <sipa> yup
  18 2013-12-29 00:03:32 Zarutian has quit (Quit: not quite it!)
  19 2013-12-29 00:03:33 <warren> http://0bin.net/paste/wCt0d0FNLRJ4Fi9c#Uj0tKscphjRgYo92PuYytoZ9J19tb9+ofomx+sdQ+EQ=  debug.log when it goes bad
  20 2013-12-29 00:03:35 <sipa> we do, but not frequently
  21 2013-12-29 00:03:43 <warren> 2013-12-28 10:40:49 socket send error 10054
  22 2013-12-29 00:03:43 <warren> 2013-12-28 10:40:49 disconnecting node 54.209.165.155:55762
  23 2013-12-29 00:03:47 <warren> then it forever fails
  24 2013-12-29 00:03:55 <warren> until a restart
  25 2013-12-29 00:04:01 <CodeShark> perhaps if nothing is heard from the connection in x seconds, we ping automatically
  26 2013-12-29 00:04:14 <sipa> warren: hmm, that sounds like a different issue
  27 2013-12-29 00:04:17 <CodeShark> where x isn't a huge number
  28 2013-12-29 00:04:28 <sipa> CodeShark: i should make https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2784 up to date
  29 2013-12-29 00:04:37 n0n0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  30 2013-12-29 00:04:52 <CodeShark> yeah
  31 2013-12-29 00:04:54 askmike has joined
  32 2013-12-29 00:06:59 <CodeShark> while we're at it, we should be compiling statistics on peer latency and providing it in addr messages :)
  33 2013-12-29 00:07:16 foamz has joined
  34 2013-12-29 00:07:55 <foamz> what does Dual EC DRBG being compromised mean for Bitcoin? Is Bitcoin safe because it uses ECDSA?
  35 2013-12-29 00:08:11 <CodeShark> we should also compute a peer reliability metric (how accurate/relevant the information a peer sends us is)
  36 2013-12-29 00:08:32 askmike_ has joined
  37 2013-12-29 00:08:45 <sipa> foamz: ECDSA has nothing to do with EC DRBG
  38 2013-12-29 00:08:58 <sipa> well, it's both based on EC curves
  39 2013-12-29 00:09:08 askmike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  40 2013-12-29 00:09:40 askmike has joined
  41 2013-12-29 00:09:46 <foamz> so EC itself isnt broken right?
  42 2013-12-29 00:09:54 <foamz> just dual EC DRBG?
  43 2013-12-29 00:10:00 <sipa> yes
  44 2013-12-29 00:10:02 <CodeShark> not that I'm aware of
  45 2013-12-29 00:10:13 nova90 has joined
  46 2013-12-29 00:10:16 <foamz> yeah i thought so
  47 2013-12-29 00:10:28 <foamz> someone was ranting to me about how bitcoins are worthless now
  48 2013-12-29 00:10:35 <foamz> and it didnt make sense to me
  49 2013-12-29 00:10:36 <sipa> people always rant; let them
  50 2013-12-29 00:10:51 Coincidental has joined
  51 2013-12-29 00:10:55 <foamz> but i dont know enough about crypto to shut him up :q
  52 2013-12-29 00:11:28 <gmaxwell> foamz: tell him you'll buy all has for $1/ea then.
  53 2013-12-29 00:12:58 askmike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  54 2013-12-29 00:13:07 <sipa> foamz: the wikipedia article explains it quite well
  55 2013-12-29 00:13:37 <sipa> the algorithm requires a particular chosen point, which is presumably generated randomly, but wasn't proven to be
  56 2013-12-29 00:13:49 <foamz> hah
  57 2013-12-29 00:14:18 <foamz> i understand a bit, i just dont understand how the random isn't random though
  58 2013-12-29 00:14:33 <foamz> like how do you introduce pseudo random code like that
  59 2013-12-29 00:14:43 <foamz> and not have tons of people notice
  60 2013-12-29 00:14:58 <sipa> very simply: in EC you have numbers and points
  61 2013-12-29 00:15:30 <sipa> every number (~secret keys) corresponds to a single point (~public keys), and the other way around
  62 2013-12-29 00:15:43 <foamz> with you so far
  63 2013-12-29 00:16:16 <sipa> however, going from number to point is easy (a modern CPU can do such conversion in the order of 100000 times per second), going the other way is presumed to be extremely hard
  64 2013-12-29 00:16:40 <deanclkclk> if I'm banned from #bitcoin how long it take for getting unbanned?
  65 2013-12-29 00:16:54 <foamz> i dont think this is the right place to ask
  66 2013-12-29 00:17:04 <sipa> complaining about it here certainly won't help :)
  67 2013-12-29 00:17:12 <foamz> i suggest you pm midnight and apologize and wait it out :P
  68 2013-12-29 00:17:18 <deanclkclk> wasn't complaining..was asking a question
  69 2013-12-29 00:17:33 <deanclkclk> who's the pm?
  70 2013-12-29 00:17:51 <deanclkclk> ohh sorry
  71 2013-12-29 00:17:55 <Emcy> i think cycling your IP and trying again just makes them more angry
  72 2013-12-29 00:18:09 <foamz> anyway
  73 2013-12-29 00:18:17 <foamz> i understand at least that much sipa
  74 2013-12-29 00:18:26 <sipa> foamz: anyhow, that algorithm (DBRG) required a point for which nobody knows the corresponding number
  75 2013-12-29 00:18:42 tesserajk has quit (Quit: tesserajk)
  76 2013-12-29 00:18:44 <sipa> that's possible by generating the point directly, instead of from a number
  77 2013-12-29 00:19:17 <sipa> however, in this case, and this was a known weakness in the system, it wasn't actually known how the point in the standard was generated
  78 2013-12-29 00:19:26 Lexa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  79 2013-12-29 00:19:38 <foamz> ah i see, so the entropy or bits used to generate the point
  80 2013-12-29 00:19:44 <foamz> is whats compromised
  81 2013-12-29 00:19:45 <Emcy> sipa yes it was, NSa did it lolol
  82 2013-12-29 00:19:48 Lexa has joined
  83 2013-12-29 00:19:55 <sipa> Emcy: well, now it is known
  84 2013-12-29 00:20:07 <sipa> when the standard was published, that wasn't the case
  85 2013-12-29 00:20:15 <Emcy> yes
  86 2013-12-29 00:20:21 <foamz> ok i got it now
  87 2013-12-29 00:20:26 <foamz> thanks for the explanation
  88 2013-12-29 00:20:33 <sipa> though apparently even then it was questioned, as there was no proof about how the point was generayed
  89 2013-12-29 00:20:48 <sipa> it could easily have been done in a way that guaranteed that nobody knew the corresponding number
  90 2013-12-29 00:20:54 <Emcy> how is it that any scheme can get standardised by NIST without using those nothing up my sleeve primatives
  91 2013-12-29 00:21:05 <sipa> Emcy: $$$
  92 2013-12-29 00:21:08 <sipa> :p
  93 2013-12-29 00:21:21 <foamz> so do we know the specific logic being used the generate the point?
  94 2013-12-29 00:21:29 <foamz> or do we just know that is has been compromised
  95 2013-12-29 00:21:41 <Emcy> i dont think they were paid off, i think NSA had people on the inside
  96 2013-12-29 00:21:41 <sipa> well, yes, they generated a random number, and converted it to a point
  97 2013-12-29 00:21:48 <Emcy> RSA however was indeed paid off
  98 2013-12-29 00:21:48 <sipa> and did not forget the number
  99 2013-12-29 00:22:13 <sipa> instead, they should have used a deterministic random generation algorithm that constructed a point directly
 100 2013-12-29 00:23:14 <foamz> i see
 101 2013-12-29 00:26:08 micronxd has quit (Quit: micronxd)
 102 2013-12-29 00:26:12 greyox has joined
 103 2013-12-29 00:26:33 <warren> sipa: the only change we made with 0.8.6 was upgrading to boost-1.54 to match bitcoin master.  I'm going to try downgrading to see if that makes any difference.
 104 2013-12-29 00:26:55 <warren> I suppose it's good if we shake out bugs ...
 105 2013-12-29 00:27:01 <warren> Litecoin needs a purpose.
 106 2013-12-29 00:27:35 sois has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
 107 2013-12-29 00:27:41 <foamz> so do we know what the "secret numbers" yet?
 108 2013-12-29 00:27:47 <foamz> are yet*
 109 2013-12-29 00:28:04 <foamz> or does just the NSA know that
 110 2013-12-29 00:28:27 <sipa> foamz: they haven't even confirmed this, why would they reveal it?
 111 2013-12-29 00:28:42 greyox has quit (Client Quit)
 112 2013-12-29 00:29:34 <Emcy> foamz what does it matter, who the hell is going to use that crypto now?
 113 2013-12-29 00:29:45 <foamz> wouldnt it be possible to reverse engineer it though?
 114 2013-12-29 00:29:48 <Emcy> i think NIST even rescinded the standard
 115 2013-12-29 00:29:59 <sipa> foamz: _that_ would require breaking EC entirely
 116 2013-12-29 00:30:03 <foamz> yeah but im sure a lot of live systems out there still use it
 117 2013-12-29 00:30:08 <foamz> i see
 118 2013-12-29 00:30:19 <Emcy> like rsa bsafe
 119 2013-12-29 00:30:36 <Emcy> what i want to know is where is the hugeass class action lawsuit
 120 2013-12-29 00:31:05 <Emcy> or are corporate customers too scared of annoying the feds even by proxy
 121 2013-12-29 00:31:46 <foamz> corporate customers will keep their trap shut unless they suddenly lose a lot of sensitive data
 122 2013-12-29 00:32:41 <warren> cfields: you still plan on upgrading the other win32 gitian deps?
 123 2013-12-29 00:33:19 hexafraction has left ()
 124 2013-12-29 00:33:32 <Emcy> foamz oh well kind of OT now i suppose
 125 2013-12-29 00:33:37 <cfields> warren: qt was the main one i was targetting, and the new descriptor is included in the qt5 pr
 126 2013-12-29 00:33:52 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 127 2013-12-29 00:33:54 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 128 2013-12-29 00:34:13 <warren> cfields: any feelings about upgrading boost again?
 129 2013-12-29 00:34:31 <cfields> for what reason?
 130 2013-12-29 00:34:43 <warren> higher number
 131 2013-12-29 00:34:49 Cryo has joined
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 133 2013-12-29 00:34:49 Cryo has joined
 134 2013-12-29 00:34:52 <cfields> heh, that's not a reason
 135 2013-12-29 00:35:29 <cfields> if it was, they'd be on boost v35.0 by now :)
 136 2013-12-29 00:36:08 <sipa> i prefer 42
 137 2013-12-29 00:36:09 <warren> it's possible 1.54 broke something
 138 2013-12-29 00:36:12 <cfields> warren: my only real input for boost would be sticking to what macports uses
 139 2013-12-29 00:36:21 <sipa> warren: p2p networking doesn't use boost
 140 2013-12-29 00:36:21 <cfields> since that's the roughest environment to build
 141 2013-12-29 00:36:29 <sipa> warren: it would very much surprise me
 142 2013-12-29 00:36:32 wtrocki has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 143 2013-12-29 00:36:36 mrkent2 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 144 2013-12-29 00:36:39 <warren> sipa: ok, then I have no idea what changed, we didn't touch anything else.
 145 2013-12-29 00:36:54 <HM2> there's a guy at 30C3 with a Bitcoin atm. Looks like a nice bit implementation
 146 2013-12-29 00:36:59 wtrocki has joined
 147 2013-12-29 00:37:08 <warren> it's only a tiny minority of our users complaining about this too
 148 2013-12-29 00:37:10 <sipa> warren: has this problem been reproduced more than once?
 149 2013-12-29 00:37:17 <warren> sipa: about a dozen reports
 150 2013-12-29 00:37:18 <CodeShark> p2p networking should use boost. asio is a nice library :)
 151 2013-12-29 00:37:40 <sipa> meh
 152 2013-12-29 00:37:55 <warren> some of them claim they had no problem with 0.8.5
 153 2013-12-29 00:38:08 <cfields> imo, using boost libs that aren't header-only should be avoided unless 100% necessary
 154 2013-12-29 00:38:21 <cfields> they're such a hassle
 155 2013-12-29 00:39:27 <cfields> (not a gripe against what's currently in-use, i only meant if considering adding more)
 156 2013-12-29 00:39:28 justanotheruser has quit (Changing host)
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 158 2013-12-29 00:39:33 <justanotheruser> If I used OP_TRUE, and someone tried to spend it, a miner could just steal it right?
 159 2013-12-29 00:39:56 <lianj> justanotheruser: yes
 160 2013-12-29 00:39:58 <lianj> and does
 161 2013-12-29 00:40:10 <cfields> especially now that c++11 is reasonably deployed
 162 2013-12-29 00:40:43 <HM2> cfields, asio is header only
 163 2013-12-29 00:40:52 <HM2> or at least it can be
 164 2013-12-29 00:41:02 <justanotheruser> Is there any way to make a transaction spendable by someone I don't know the address of and only give the transaction to?
 165 2013-12-29 00:41:35 <sipa> justanotheruser: if you can give them a transaction, why can't you ask for a public key?
 166 2013-12-29 00:42:10 <justanotheruser> sipa: because I don't know who I'm going to give the transaction to. It will just be a piece of data someone will have access to eventually.
 167 2013-12-29 00:42:12 <CodeShark> cfields: I just ran into some problems with boost_log Lo
 168 2013-12-29 00:42:26 <CodeShark> it is annoying it is not header only
 169 2013-12-29 00:42:37 <cfields> CodeShark: ah, i forgot to respond to your mail
 170 2013-12-29 00:42:40 eristisk has quit (Quit: killall -9 irc)
 171 2013-12-29 00:42:53 <cfields> CodeShark: sorry, been caught up in holiday stuff the last 2 weeks
 172 2013-12-29 00:42:58 <CodeShark> cfields: no worries :)
 173 2013-12-29 00:43:03 <CodeShark> I figured
 174 2013-12-29 00:43:29 <CodeShark> anyhow, asio can be header only and is actually quite nice to use :)
 175 2013-12-29 00:43:44 <CodeShark> I've migrated all my p2p networking code to it
 176 2013-12-29 00:43:54 <justanotheruser> sipa: specifically, I want to have a hash h(x), and the first person to find x I want to pay.
 177 2013-12-29 00:44:36 <sipa> justanotheruser: impossible without risking miners stealing it
 178 2013-12-29 00:44:40 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: no, not currently. You can achieve what you want with an interactive protocol though.
 179 2013-12-29 00:44:52 <gmaxwell> Its _currently_ impossible, its not fundimentally impossible.
 180 2013-12-29 00:45:17 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: Is it fundamentally impossible to do it without an interactive protocol?
 181 2013-12-29 00:45:21 <gmaxwell> No.
 182 2013-12-29 00:45:46 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: the interactive protocol looks like the outer (bitcoin transaction) part of this, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Zero_Knowledge_Contingent_Payment
 183 2013-12-29 00:46:03 <justanotheruser> I'm guessing there aren't any disallowed opcodes that would make it possible gmaxwell?
 184 2013-12-29 00:46:07 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: No.
 185 2013-12-29 00:48:41 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: Would P2SH allow it?
 186 2013-12-29 00:49:42 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: No.
 187 2013-12-29 00:49:46 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: No. To achieve what you want, you need validation for a non-internative zero-knoweldge signature-of-knoweldge for a statement like "Z is an encryption under Q, of X such that H(X)==R" in script, and you provide the Q,R.
 188 2013-12-29 00:50:20 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 189 2013-12-29 00:50:54 <justanotheruser> ;;google internative
 190 2013-12-29 00:50:55 <gribble> Internative | Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Internative/108756475813938>; Eristoff Internative Festival I « onionlab.com: <http://www.onionlab.com/eristoff-internative-festival-i/>; Eristoff Internative Festival II « onionlab.com: <http://www.onionlab.com/eristoff-internative-festival-ii-3/>
 191 2013-12-29 00:51:05 <gmaxwell> hah
 192 2013-12-29 00:51:07 <gmaxwell> interactive.
 193 2013-12-29 00:51:27 <justanotheruser> I see
 194 2013-12-29 00:52:31 <gmaxwell> (and even that has a bit of a clawback race, an interactive protocol is a lot more secure)
 195 2013-12-29 00:53:49 <gmaxwell> e.g. someone redeems your coin and you see the txn, so you now know X (because you can decrypt Z) and so you can try to doublespend race it.  That could be fixed by making the redemption two phase, but that requires even more complicated transaction changes.
 196 2013-12-29 00:54:30 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: there is another way to somewhat safely redeem an anonymous hashlocked transaction.
 197 2013-12-29 00:54:44 Intelftw has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 198 2013-12-29 00:55:31 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: oh? What is it?
 199 2013-12-29 00:56:41 <gmaxwell> And thats to ask a miner to blindly mine it for you... e.g. you don't tell them anything but the txid to include. Of course, you can make them mine an invalid block this way, by giving them garbage or not rapidly handing over the transaction data when they find a block... but thats easily solved by just buying out their full hashpower so they don't care if you're throwing the work away or not.
 200 2013-12-29 00:57:51 <sipa> if it's worth enough to buy a full block's worth of hashpower for, it may also be worth enough for others to reorganize the block away...
 201 2013-12-29 00:58:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: perhaps, though "worth enough"— it's not like you're throwing away the coin. :P
 202 2013-12-29 00:58:28 <sipa> right
 203 2013-12-29 00:58:44 <gmaxwell> that was my 'somewhat' though. :P
 204 2013-12-29 00:58:58 <sipa> but if it's a transaction that credits you let's say 10 blocks worth of subsidy/fees, then this approach won't be safe
 205 2013-12-29 00:59:09 <gmaxwell> Indeed.
 206 2013-12-29 00:59:43 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: The reason I want to do this is so people can have timed secrets. I AES encrypt a document containing my secret. The password to the document is a hash of the concatenation of the data for the hashes values for a number of transactions. Miners could do "secret mining", where they try to find the value for hashlocked transaction for a reward. The central limit theorem says my secret will probably take a certain amount
 207 2013-12-29 01:00:01 <gmaxwell> you're trying to achieve timelock encryption.
 208 2013-12-29 01:00:21 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: yes, but with bitcoin you can add an incentive
 209 2013-12-29 01:00:38 shesek has joined
 210 2013-12-29 01:00:56 <gmaxwell> well, as you can see, you can't easily.
 211 2013-12-29 01:01:00 <justanotheruser> indeed
 212 2013-12-29 01:01:24 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: you may note I have timelock encryption on my altideas page.
 213 2013-12-29 01:01:48 <justanotheruser> link?
 214 2013-12-29 01:01:56 <nsh> timelock encryption is definitely possible
 215 2013-12-29 01:02:06 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas
 216 2013-12-29 01:06:19 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: you should /join #bitcoin-wizards
 217 2013-12-29 01:06:35 <gmaxwell> as thats where most of the not really production development related crypto ideas go to die.
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 226 2013-12-29 01:12:29 <Ryan52> Can their be multiple valid merkle roots for a given block? Or is the merkle tree supposed to be balanced?
 227 2013-12-29 01:12:40 <midnightmagic> ideas never die! they just need rediscovering every once in a while
 228 2013-12-29 01:13:00 sassamo_ has joined
 229 2013-12-29 01:14:05 <h2odysee> if I use "bitcoind sendmany ..." and get "Transaction too large", is that limit set by the protocol? Am I forced to split the transaction up into multiple, or is there a workaround to get it as one transaction?
 230 2013-12-29 01:14:22 <Ryan52> I saw a reference implementation that did create balanced merkle trees on the bitcoin wiki, but I'm seeing another implementation (that I don't know if it works properly) that adds a new level for each leaf. I'm wondering if both are acceptable or only the first one.
 231 2013-12-29 01:15:13 <sipa> Ryan52: merkle trees for what?
 232 2013-12-29 01:15:25 <sipa> if it's for the transactions in a block, there is only one allowed shape
 233 2013-12-29 01:16:21 <CodeShark> yes, the merkle root is unique
 234 2013-12-29 01:16:28 <Ryan52> sipa: Yeah, for the merkle root in the header, thanks for the answer.
 235 2013-12-29 01:16:51 <Ryan52> I'm confused because the stratum mining proxy (https://github.com/slush0/stratum-mining-proxy/blob/master/mining_libs/jobs.py#L70) builds the merkle root like this:
 236 2013-12-29 01:16:55 <Ryan52>         for h in self.merkle_branch:
 237 2013-12-29 01:16:57 sassamo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 238 2013-12-29 01:16:57 <Ryan52>             merkle_root = utils.doublesha(merkle_root + h)
 239 2013-12-29 01:17:02 <Ryan52> Which would be an incorrect shape, right?
 240 2013-12-29 01:17:23 <sipa> no
 241 2013-12-29 01:17:38 <sipa> it's recomputing a single branch of the merkle tree
 242 2013-12-29 01:19:42 <Ryan52> Oh, so the stratum protocol just gives the details to recompute a branch rather than providing all of the transactions?
 243 2013-12-29 01:20:01 * Ryan52 misunderstood that detail, if so.
 244 2013-12-29 01:24:25 Lexa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 245 2013-12-29 01:25:03 <Ryan52> Oh, and it's explained right there in the specification. That does make sense, since the coinbase is the only one that would change, so only that branch would need to be recomputed -- just not quite as intuitive as getblocktemplate, but it definitely makes sense in its own way.
 246 2013-12-29 01:25:14 <Ryan52> sipa, CodeShark: Thanks for helping me work through my misunderstanding!
 247 2013-12-29 01:25:36 <CodeShark> :)
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 253 2013-12-29 01:31:10 <oneman> hello
 254 2013-12-29 01:31:31 one_zero has joined
 255 2013-12-29 01:31:58 <oneman> I had a random idea i wrote down, mit might be dum but I reckoned I'd rather say a dum thing on the internet than not speak of a smart thing
 256 2013-12-29 01:32:13 <oneman> https://gist.github.com/oneman/8166420/raw/cf03b760489523a41c9fe97a1cf607d1444e1919/gistfile1.txt
 257 2013-12-29 01:33:33 mrkent has joined
 258 2013-12-29 01:33:40 <oneman> feel free to take my idea
 259 2013-12-29 01:34:12 one_zero has quit (Client Quit)
 260 2013-12-29 01:34:52 one_zero has joined
 261 2013-12-29 01:37:27 tesserajk has joined
 262 2013-12-29 01:38:15 <edcba> i don't understand the motive
 263 2013-12-29 01:39:17 greyox has joined
 264 2013-12-29 01:39:33 <oneman> which one
 265 2013-12-29 01:39:39 fanquake has joined
 266 2013-12-29 01:39:41 <oneman> uhm well
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 270 2013-12-29 01:41:02 <oneman> global marketplace is not optimal at price discovery
 271 2013-12-29 01:41:44 <oneman> the cost of checking the background of vendor out is high
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 273 2013-12-29 01:42:04 <oneman> someone might have a lower cost but you cant tell if they are legit or not
 274 2013-12-29 01:42:45 <oneman> new vendor might have much lower price in order to attract new buyers and proove capability
 275 2013-12-29 01:43:14 <maaku> oneman: you can't trust blockchain data to reveal that info
 276 2013-12-29 01:44:06 <oneman> you can get a much better idea about it using automatic tools analizing teh entire transaction history and giving you predictions
 277 2013-12-29 01:44:19 <Ryan52> oneman: because addresses are so cheap and anonymous to some degree, a vendor could fairly easily pretend to be a buyer of their services and make themselves seem credible even if they are not, right?
 278 2013-12-29 01:45:32 <Ryan52> oneman: I think it's a good idea if you can make it work reliably, I am just trying to poke holes and see how you might plan to address them.
 279 2013-12-29 01:45:36 <oneman> yes, however there is two forces against it, one is that bitcoin tx cost fee's, the other is that real vendor is going to have interaction with buyer that use other vendors and so on  so this can all be analized
 280 2013-12-29 01:46:27 <oneman> yeah trying to poke holes is best thing you can do here
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 282 2013-12-29 01:47:28 <oneman> one not mentioned idea is that, in an ad-hoc organic way the offer data could be made friendly as possible for analysis using json microformats
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 284 2013-12-29 01:48:18 <Ryan52> well, that kind of depends on how they organize their supply chain.. if they've bought the commodities they need from other vendors using a different currency, or bought in bulk ahead of time, the analysis would not easily find that information.
 285 2013-12-29 01:48:21 <oneman> the 'chain' if there is one would be only the sigs of the offer stuff, the data itself would be offered by the vendors themselves
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 287 2013-12-29 01:48:42 <oneman> ala bitcoin magnet links and so on
 288 2013-12-29 01:48:52 <Ryan52> Oh, scratch that, I totally misunderstood and read that wrong. I see what you mean now.
 289 2013-12-29 01:49:11 <oneman> this depends on only looking at transactions that can be prooven
 290 2013-12-29 01:49:15 <Ryan52> So buyers would also need to be credible, and you would have a way of checking a buyer's reputation as well.
 291 2013-12-29 01:50:32 <oneman> credible in that they are not double agents for other vendors buying product simply to trash it etc?
 292 2013-12-29 01:51:22 <oneman> i think the bitcoin tx fee's do altleast, cut the amount of possible bullshit transactions down quite abit
 293 2013-12-29 01:51:23 <Ryan52> I guess. Credible as I meant it was, by not being the actual vendor pretending to be a customer.
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 295 2013-12-29 01:52:15 <oneman> there is probably some ways that can be rooted out pretty effectivly
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 299 2013-12-29 01:54:46 <oneman> i think most of this comes down to 'big data' network analysis and other motivations
 300 2013-12-29 01:55:28 <oneman> for example positive review that includeds addition evidence of product/service provided can be incentised by vendor for even lower future offers
 301 2013-12-29 01:56:08 <oneman> because such evidence is rated higher by tools predicting vendor outcome
 302 2013-12-29 01:56:20 <oneman> or transaction outcome rather
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 305 2013-12-29 01:57:58 <oneman> if there was a 'side chain' its like, the currency itself would be being able to create a message signed by a key in X bitcoin transaction
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 307 2013-12-29 01:58:53 <oneman> and maybe a limit of 1 or 2 messages per each side of the transaction, perhaps limited by the time elapsed since the transaction
 308 2013-12-29 01:59:26 <oneman> so the data in the chain would be comparable to the size of bitcoin chain
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 310 2013-12-29 02:00:00 <oneman> but then the actual info itself, it could be zillions of petabytes
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 312 2013-12-29 02:00:17 <oneman> maybe the different sectors would maintain that
 313 2013-12-29 02:01:26 t7 has joined
 314 2013-12-29 02:01:50 <oneman> if you think about it right now, the marketplace is all heresy, an advertisement is litterally the oposite of cryptographicly prooved past performance
 315 2013-12-29 02:02:16 <oneman> its just strait brainwashing
 316 2013-12-29 02:04:12 <oneman> the 'idea' here is this system lets you tie or link to additional information about actual transactions
 317 2013-12-29 02:04:52 <oneman> this would not be on the chain but you can link it and say, ok this vendor is cheap, but they killed all teh whales, dont forget the whale cost lol
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 319 2013-12-29 02:05:56 <Ryan52> So reviews in some blockchain, linked to the original transaction like when reviews on Amazon say "verified purchase" next to them.
 320 2013-12-29 02:06:15 <oneman> if lots of the marketplace tho, was done in this way, it would be the way that customers could get the best price quicker, the price adjustments would be faster because all current offers can be analized
 321 2013-12-29 02:06:44 <oneman> and new vendors can come online quicker because they can see exactly where prices are to high
 322 2013-12-29 02:07:04 <oneman> the reviews are not in the blockchain
 323 2013-12-29 02:07:38 <oneman> its the signature of the offer signed by the key of the receiver
 324 2013-12-29 02:07:45 <oneman> err oops i said that wrong
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 327 2013-12-29 02:10:31 <oneman> its the signature of the details of the transaction signed by the seller that includes data from the buyer and the most recent block hash signed by the vendors key
 328 2013-12-29 02:10:40 <oneman> blah
 329 2013-12-29 02:10:48 <oneman> haha
 330 2013-12-29 02:10:53 <oneman> I give up lol
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 334 2013-12-29 02:21:31 <Zapsoda> I feel stupid asking this, Is there a simple way to make a callback when you generate a address with the bitcoind (Using php and the JSON-RPC api) I normally use the blockchain API which has a great callback function but i'm trying to make a site without any 3rd parties (Blockchain), Ive been looking at the -walletnotify option for bitcoind but it seems i can only pass the transaction hash and I'm not sure how to access it when
 335 2013-12-29 02:21:32 <Zapsoda> using the phpcli (I have it run a .sh file and wget the php callback file but that seems odd), I also thought about constant polling but that seems horribly inefficient), Any tips? I feel like i'm missing something obvious since most developers would want a way to know when a gened address receives payment
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 356 2013-12-29 02:58:06 <fanquake> Something funny going on over @ openssl.org
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 406 2013-12-29 04:16:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think your grapher node is broken.
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 416 2013-12-29 04:35:51 <mack25> trying to get bitcoind to run on centos. when i try to run make -f makefile.unix i get "alert.cpp:8:29: warning: boost/foreach.hpp: No such file or directory" - i do already have the boost libraries installed. any ideas?
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 420 2013-12-29 04:39:33 <warren> mack25: boost might be too old, and you'll get stuck separately because openssl of centos does not support ecdsa
 421 2013-12-29 04:39:36 <warren> mack25: or the particular type of ecdsa that bitcoin needs
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 423 2013-12-29 04:40:07 <mack25> warren i just did yum install boost and yum install boost-devel
 424 2013-12-29 04:40:13 <mack25> so it got the latest
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 427 2013-12-29 04:40:18 <warren> mack25: you're recommended to use the official binaries if you don't need to modify anything
 428 2013-12-29 04:40:18 <warren> mack25: there are ways of building it on centos but it's painful
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 430 2013-12-29 04:41:47 <warren> mack25: boost in centos6 is pretty old
 431 2013-12-29 04:41:47 <warren> mack25: centos6 is pretty old
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 438 2013-12-29 04:42:38 <andytoshi> mack25: maybe you are missing -mt in the makefile?
 439 2013-12-29 04:42:38 <andytoshi> i don't recall how makefile.unix is structured, but there is a very obvious place right before the boost stuff where you can add -mt
 440 2013-12-29 04:43:04 <mack25> i tried make -f makefile.unix BOOST_LIB_SUFFIX=-mt
 441 2013-12-29 04:43:06 <mack25> but that didn't help
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 443 2013-12-29 04:43:12 <mack25> if that's what you are referring to
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 446 2013-12-29 04:44:54 <mack25> actually yum only installed Package boost-1.33.1-16.el5_9.i386 already installed and latest version
 447 2013-12-29 04:44:59 <mack25> but boost is up to 1.55
 448 2013-12-29 04:45:05 <mack25> think i should upgrade?
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 451 2013-12-29 04:45:58 <andytoshi> yeah, pretty sure you need 1.50 at least
 452 2013-12-29 04:45:58 <andytoshi> well, that's what the downloaded binary expects anyway
 453 2013-12-29 04:47:22 <mack25> ok
 454 2013-12-29 04:47:27 <mack25> building boost from source
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 457 2013-12-29 04:48:46 <andytoshi> ok
 458 2013-12-29 04:48:46 <andytoshi> be aware you'll need to add some /usr/local paths to the makefile as well..
 459 2013-12-29 04:48:47 <andytoshi> good luck
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 471 2013-12-29 05:08:03 <oneman> gmaxwell: poke holes in my above scheme
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 496 2013-12-29 06:06:07 <nsh> "The second attack exploits the difference in 0.8.3 and bitcoinj clients. An attacker could spread malicious transactions through the network that would go unnoticed by older clients. When 0.8.3 clients truncate these invalid transactions it will force all bitcoinj clients to disconnect from 0.8.3, harming all 0.8.3 and bitcoinj nodes that now lost connections to their peers." --http://t
 497 2013-12-29 06:06:07 <nsh> hegenesisblock.com/bitcoin-0-8-4-update-provides-security-improvements/
 498 2013-12-29 06:06:17 <nsh> i wonder if there'll be a trend of problems like this...
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 511 2013-12-29 06:24:43 <BlueMatt> nsh: this is why the bloom filter bug should be exploited
 512 2013-12-29 06:24:51 <BlueMatt> make it impossible for people to run nodes like this
 513 2013-12-29 06:25:22 * nsh nods
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 515 2013-12-29 06:26:52 <BlueMatt> we should leave lots of crash bugs in bitcoind so we can force people to upgrade when necessary :)
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 526 2013-12-29 06:42:29 <warren> BlueMatt: wasn't that the Windows business model ...
 527 2013-12-29 06:42:56 <upb> ???
 528 2013-12-29 06:43:36 <BlueMatt> warren: lol, yes, I think it was
 529 2013-12-29 06:44:08 <upb> with claims like this i'm amazed you didnt refer ot it as M$ WINDOZE
 530 2013-12-29 06:44:16 <upb> these usually go hand in hand
 531 2013-12-29 06:45:06 <BlueMatt> it was a joke...
 532 2013-12-29 06:48:10 <warren> the current Windows business model is along the lines of "We're finally killing this 14 year old product.  PLEASE buy our new one."
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 537 2013-12-29 07:01:28 <Krellan> Question about newest bitcoin-qt client re unconfirmed transactions
 538 2013-12-29 07:01:51 <Krellan> I sent a payment to myself.  It's unconfirmed, 0 of 6 tx.  However, the amount doesn't show up in the Unconfirmed total, only the Confirmed total.  Seems misleading to me.
 539 2013-12-29 07:02:53 <Krellan> also, what's the best way to clean up a wallet with much dust?  I want to pay it all out to a new address, subtracting out only the TX fee, but it takes a lot of trial and error
 540 2013-12-29 07:03:11 <Krellan> to get the correct amount, because if I increase the amount I pay for TX fee, it brings more dust into the transaction, which calls for higher TX fee, repeat....
 541 2013-12-29 07:03:26 <Krellan> Anyone know an answer to these 2 unrelated dilemmas?
 542 2013-12-29 07:03:35 <swulf--> not sure if it'll help but peter todd wrote a dust-b-gone tool for wallets
 543 2013-12-29 07:03:48 <warren> Krellan: coin control?
 544 2013-12-29 07:03:50 <Krellan> Hmm will have to look for it.
 545 2013-12-29 07:03:54 <kuzetsa> I'm interested in such a tool
 546 2013-12-29 07:04:03 <kuzetsa> dust-b-gone sounds like a great name for it :)
 547 2013-12-29 07:04:11 <swulf--> https://github.com/petertodd/dust-b-gone
 548 2013-12-29 07:04:12 <warren> Krellan: dust-b-gone donates it to the ether.  coin control attempts to combine it
 549 2013-12-29 07:04:18 <kuzetsa> nice
 550 2013-12-29 07:04:26 <kuzetsa> oh
 551 2013-12-29 07:04:37 <Krellan> I'd like to zero my entire wallet and pay myself a new clean wallet with no dust
 552 2013-12-29 07:04:39 <kuzetsa> what is "the ether" ?
 553 2013-12-29 07:04:59 <warren> Krellan: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=320695.0  0.8-based Coin Control client, or use bitcoin master
 554 2013-12-29 07:05:18 <swulf--> right. dust-b-gone sends it to the miners
 555 2013-12-29 07:05:49 <Krellan> thanks
 556 2013-12-29 07:06:00 <Krellan> coin control is an awesome feature - wish it was standard in there
 557 2013-12-29 07:06:55 <warren> Krellan: it's well tested in OMG
 558 2013-12-29 07:07:02 <kuzetsa> oh, the dust-b-gone thing just tosses out all the bitcoin sending it as fees?
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 565 2013-12-29 07:21:59 <gittie> I have a question about gitian builds, what are the requirements for a build server ?
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 569 2013-12-29 07:26:23 <fanquake> gittie https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/gitian-descriptors/README.md
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 571 2013-12-29 07:27:51 <gittie> fanquake: so is it possible to build on a VPS or would it have to be a dedicated platform ?
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 600 2013-12-29 08:13:48 <Krellan> Hmm, the TX that I made to myself, same wallet to same wallet (probably bad idea) hasn't been confirmed in some time
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 603 2013-12-29 08:14:21 <Krellan> it has an output that received exactly 0 BTC
 604 2013-12-29 08:15:01 <Krellan> i will PM the TXID if interest (don't want to post it here)
 605 2013-12-29 08:15:42 <wumpus> Krellan: there is no problem in sending transactions to yourself, those are not different from any other transactions
 606 2013-12-29 08:15:44 <Krellan> what's the best way to stop the client from trying to retransmit unconfirmed TX?
 607 2013-12-29 08:15:57 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 608 2013-12-29 08:16:07 <Krellan> wumpus: thanks, I wonder why it sent a transaction that seems to be unhappy though
 609 2013-12-29 08:16:36 <wumpus> I don't think any of the outputs is really zero either, it may think that because it regards the whole transaction as change?
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 612 2013-12-29 08:17:40 <gmaxwell> Krellan ... how did you manage to make a transaction with a zero value output? Bitcoin-qt won't do that, even with sendraw, IIRC.
 613 2013-12-29 08:18:12 tesserajk has quit (Quit: tesserajk)
 614 2013-12-29 08:18:41 <gmaxwell> open up the console, getrawtransaction <txid>  1  and pastbin the result.
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 620 2013-12-29 08:22:23 <Krellan> Thanks, got it pasted, PM'ed the result (did not want it logged)
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 622 2013-12-29 08:23:00 <wumpus> that
 623 2013-12-29 08:23:06 <wumpus> that's one transaction?!
 624 2013-12-29 08:23:25 <Krellan> It's not zero after all, it was a rounding error on blockchain.info that led me to think it was zero
 625 2013-12-29 08:23:33 <wumpus> how many vouts doet is have? 170+?
 626 2013-12-29 08:23:35 <Krellan> yes, it's a big TX, it's my attempt to clean up dust
 627 2013-12-29 08:23:52 <Krellan> i thought it would go out with a bigger TX fee to pay for it all, but evidently it didn't, sigh
 628 2013-12-29 08:24:39 <gmaxwell> Krellan: only so none are zero.. part of the problem there is that it has a dust output.
 629 2013-12-29 08:24:46 <Krellan> it was fun to watch the messages fly by on the console as the client struggled to piece together this big dusty mess
 630 2013-12-29 08:25:38 <gmaxwell> it has a reasonably high fee at least.
 631 2013-12-29 08:25:48 <Krellan> yes, I wonder why it would pay a dust output, I was expecting only 1 address (mine) as the output and no change, but I guess it wasn't completely exact so it crossed a boundary and had to split a coin to make change.
 632 2013-12-29 08:26:08 <gmaxwell> well it used two different addresses.
 633 2013-12-29 08:26:18 <gmaxwell> oh more than two.
 634 2013-12-29 08:26:43 <gmaxwell> interesting, bitcoin-qt is supposted to automatically give away dust change to fees though
 635 2013-12-29 08:26:47 <gmaxwell> I don't understand why it didn't.
 636 2013-12-29 08:27:04 <Krellan> Me neither, which is why I posted it here.
 637 2013-12-29 08:27:16 <wumpus> it always does for me
 638 2013-12-29 08:27:19 <gmaxwell> in any case this will go right through if you reauthor it to remove that dust output.
 639 2013-12-29 08:27:46 <Krellan> hmm, how to do that?  I haven't tried manually reauthoring a TX.
 640 2013-12-29 08:27:47 <gmaxwell> Krellan: how did you create this? just punched in your own address and typed in an amount? nothing speical? have you changed any defaults in your bitcoin.conf?
 641 2013-12-29 08:28:51 <Krellan> I did increase blockmaxsize to 1000000 and lowered mintxfee and minrelaytxfee both to 0.000001
 642 2013-12-29 08:29:21 <Krellan> other than that, I just punched it into the bitcoin-qt client, doing nothing else out of the ordinary
 643 2013-12-29 08:29:22 <gmaxwell> ah. well that would do it.
 644 2013-12-29 08:29:42 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
 645 2013-12-29 08:29:51 * gmaxwell grumbled about people changing intentionally undocumented options.
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 647 2013-12-29 08:30:28 <gmaxwell> Krellan: one sec. I'll help you fix it.
 648 2013-12-29 08:30:30 <Krellan> Thanks
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 651 2013-12-29 08:31:06 <Krellan> What should those options be?  My goal was to be rather generous regarding TX that would get accepted into blocks I might mine, not to send out dust.
 652 2013-12-29 08:32:33 <Krellan> Probably should set it to 0.00001 (about $0.01) instead, a penny for your thoughts (about a transaction)
 653 2013-12-29 08:33:10 <gmaxwell> if you set that lower than your peers and the miners then you'll be at risk of authoring transactions that other nodes won't relay/mine.
 654 2013-12-29 08:34:32 <Krellan> Ah makes sense. I was hoping it would only affect incoming TX that I might be so lucky as to mine into a block, and not affect my own TX that I author.
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 657 2013-12-29 08:36:44 <Krellan> Nice, Eligius mined it!!
 658 2013-12-29 08:37:48 <gmaxwell> yea. k.
 659 2013-12-29 08:38:16 <Krellan> Did you force it through on your mighty miner?
 660 2013-12-29 08:38:26 <gmaxwell> No, though I did submit it directly to eligius.
 661 2013-12-29 08:38:39 <gmaxwell> via http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php
 662 2013-12-29 08:38:43 <Krellan> Cool thanks!
 663 2013-12-29 08:38:46 <gmaxwell> but I didn't know if it would take it.
 664 2013-12-29 08:38:56 Guyver2 has joined
 665 2013-12-29 08:38:57 <gmaxwell> so I was in the middle of writing a replacement.
 666 2013-12-29 08:39:30 <Krellan> is that a public service Eligius offers or is it something special that you did?
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 669 2013-12-29 08:40:24 <Krellan> would be a rather useful feature for a large pool to sell: ability to push a preferred TX through, possibly with additional payment
 670 2013-12-29 08:40:37 <Krellan> thus giving people the ability to do what they often wish they had done: paid more TX fee originally when sending.
 671 2013-12-29 08:40:46 <gmaxwell> Krellan: they have a php script to submit directly to their nodes, its not something special beyond the fact that it will help skip the relay network which might not be forwarding the txn.
 672 2013-12-29 08:41:13 <gmaxwell> And yes, eligius actually has had prioritizion services, but has never had a public interface to it.
 673 2013-12-29 08:41:24 <Krellan> I better bookmark that.  What format is the input, it is direct from that pastebin?
 674 2013-12-29 08:41:37 <gmaxwell> Krellan: it's the transaction hex, which was in your pastebin output.
 675 2013-12-29 08:41:53 <gmaxwell> same thing you also get if you'd run the getrawtransaction without the "1" flag.
 676 2013-12-29 08:42:02 <gmaxwell> or that you get out of a signrawtransaction.
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 678 2013-12-29 08:43:45 <Krellan> ah OK thanks.
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 680 2013-12-29 08:45:31 <gmaxwell> Krellan: you might want to dust-b-gone that really tiny output. :P
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 682 2013-12-29 08:45:58 <Krellan> Cool much thanks, I'll remember that. I increased my mintxfee and minrelaytxfee to 0.00001 also.
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 684 2013-12-29 08:47:02 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/petertodd/dust-b-gone < what it does it basically gives away your very low value coins to some service to be coinjoined away.
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 687 2013-12-29 08:51:33 <Krellan> And they're dust-b-goned!
 688 2013-12-29 08:51:57 <Krellan> after making sure to read that Python script closely, considering it asks for my wallet password....
 689 2013-12-29 08:53:08 <gmaxwell> Krellan: indeed. it's easy to read of course. I'd audited it previously. But it's certantly good to do so.
 690 2013-12-29 08:53:56 <Krellan> aye, very nicely written.  Of course if anybody wanted to be sneaky they would bury it in the python-bitcoinlib directory which has a lot of code in it.
 691 2013-12-29 08:54:02 <gmaxwell> peter only issues the transactions every once in a while, but the next time he does, if you haven't managed to spend that coin first, he'll sweep it away.
 692 2013-12-29 08:55:00 <gmaxwell> ultimately the functionality should be some advanced wallet feature... but deploying it without a collection server is probably more work than its worth... so its not quite clear how to do it.
 693 2013-12-29 08:55:40 <gmaxwell> e.g. just a setting "[ ] give away any coin I recieve under [0.00001] in value"
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 696 2013-12-29 09:01:20 <Krellan> Or perhaps a "Cleanup/Move Wallet" option that would consume your entire wallet balance in a TX that would send to a single address of your choice
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 698 2013-12-29 09:01:47 <wumpus> why would you do that?
 699 2013-12-29 09:02:00 <Krellan> It would be convenient to have a way to scrape clean wallets on installations of Bitcoin that I no longer wish to keep around.
 700 2013-12-29 09:02:49 <wumpus> right, you want a 'send all and have fee inclusive' .. that makes sense
 701 2013-12-29 09:02:52 <Krellan> alternative is to keep the wallet.dat file around forever, carrying some small dust
 702 2013-12-29 09:03:27 <Krellan> yep, because right now it's a guessing game: you have to pick the right amount to send, so that amount + fee equals your entire balance, and it's difficult (impossible?) to get it exact
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 704 2013-12-29 09:04:30 <wumpus> never had any difficulties with that, I think changing the fee settings created most of the problem
 705 2013-12-29 09:04:43 <wumpus> normally it just assigns extra dust to fees
 706 2013-12-29 09:04:55 <wumpus> if you have a version with coin control you can even see that happen
 707 2013-12-29 09:05:25 <wumpus> enter an amount *almost* the size of the entire input, and it increases the fee instead of generating change
 708 2013-12-29 09:06:36 <wumpus> that said, a 'sender pays fee' checkbox makes sense, there are a few issues on github about that already
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 710 2013-12-29 09:09:49 <gmaxwell> wumpus: well you're not doing anything that results in you getting a half dozen 0.03 btc payments per day.
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 713 2013-12-29 09:10:31 <wumpus> gmaxwell: that's true
 714 2013-12-29 09:11:03 <gmaxwell> Krellan: what I do think coin selection should generally do is once its picked inputs and has change, add in all the extra inputs send to the same addresses, subject to some maximum size limit.. its not like you're likely to pay substantially lower fees in the the future.  but it's something that could use some simulation.
 715 2013-12-29 09:11:38 <gmaxwell> Krellan: I use the kludgy shell script stuff here to just groom up p2pool addresses when I've switched to another one: http://0bin.net/paste/YsfhrW0fdY5hppnc#eQjliqYqjtlMNGg65oyU/2r2Rv1G5jwyKGtCvjTg5iE=
 716 2013-12-29 09:12:19 <gmaxwell> and just make single transactions to consolidate an address and move the coins to a new one.
 717 2013-12-29 09:14:12 <warren> sipa: the windows 0.8.6 connection failures are not related to IP address changing and computers are not sleeping
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 719 2013-12-29 09:14:26 <warren> The only other thing I changed was upgrading to boost-1.54
 720 2013-12-29 09:14:38 <warren> but that isn't supposed to be related to p2p
 721 2013-12-29 09:14:46 <Krellan> with my feeble hashrate? I can *wish* i was getting a half dozen 0.03 BTC payments each day, more like 3 payments of 0.003 each or so
 722 2013-12-29 09:15:41 <warren> On the topic of p2pool dust, forrestv mentioned he thinks the trustless accumulator is feasible, he'll be updating the proposal soon.
 723 2013-12-29 09:16:00 <warren> We're also sending him more money.
 724 2013-12-29 09:16:21 <gmaxwell> "dust"
 725 2013-12-29 09:16:43 <gmaxwell> I mean, 0.03 BTC is $20.
 726 2013-12-29 09:17:07 <warren> gmaxwell: well, p2pool would do well to have fewer coinbase TXO...
 727 2013-12-29 09:17:33 <Krellan> I like how p2pool is genuine mining, paid in coinbase
 728 2013-12-29 09:17:51 <Krellan> it's about as close as I will come to being able to mine a full block myself
 729 2013-12-29 09:18:17 <warren> I'm going to post in the thread right now, if others donate to forrestv before December 31st, we'll match an additional $1,000.
 730 2013-12-29 09:18:33 <gmaxwell> Krellan: yea, there are ways to reduce the payout frequencies without eliminating direct coinbase outputs.
 731 2013-12-29 09:18:40 <warren> People need to take p2pool more seriously.
 732 2013-12-29 09:19:13 <Krellan> p2pool is my favorite pool because it's very technically elegant, being decentralized but still working as a good pool
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 734 2013-12-29 09:19:28 <Krellan> if it weren't for that, my next favorite would be Eligius
 735 2013-12-29 09:19:30 <gmaxwell> I mean, it does mine about $56,000 BTC worth of bitcoin per day.
 736 2013-12-29 09:19:49 <gmaxwell> warren: I dunno if you noticed me mention it, but the antminer firmware is now fixed wrt p2pool. and it works awesomely on it.
 737 2013-12-29 09:20:14 <warren> gmaxwell: excellent
 738 2013-12-29 09:20:25 <gmaxwell> DOA rate of 1.9%.
 739 2013-12-29 09:20:26 <warren> gmaxwell: how's the work return latency now?
 740 2013-12-29 09:21:25 <gmaxwell> (as compared to the avalons with tuning and patches, which are 5.5% which was already good enough to average >100% efficiency for me)
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 745 2013-12-29 09:34:59 <warren> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=329860.msg4199208#msg4199208  If the community donates in excess of $1,000 to Forrest's donation addresses before noon UTC December 31st, the Litecoin Dev Team will contribute an additional $1,000 in support of his research and development.
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 792 2013-12-29 11:10:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: 4c6d41b8b653ef90639b1a32f6aab0bb1cef90c5 broke getnetworkhashps
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 794 2013-12-29 11:13:07 <gmaxwell> GetNetworkHashPS is called with -1 to indicate pindexBest (this is the default when you call the rpc too). trivial fix.
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 810 2013-12-29 11:40:27 <berndj> re utxo bloat: would it make sense to take advantage of temporal locality, and let all those spammy dust outputs drop into a subset that's still available, but doesn't take the process's RSS unless those outputs move? (or is this done already)
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 813 2013-12-29 11:43:56 <gmaxwell> berndj: utxo isn't required to be in memory.
 814 2013-12-29 11:44:29 <gmaxwell> but access patterns are pretty random, and things are normally written to once and read from basically once (ignoring some complications about multiple txout in a transaction)
 815 2013-12-29 11:44:34 <berndj> it isn't, but if it's just a giant hash table (is it? isn't it?) the random accesses will try to access it all uniformly, no?
 816 2013-12-29 11:45:37 <gmaxwell> it's a leveldb, which is actually ordered. but regardless. caching is actually effective because recently created txouts tend to be consumed pretty fast.
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 818 2013-12-29 11:47:38 <berndj> so what exactly is the "utxo bloat" issue - the fact that a node *must* carry along those 300MB? or that bitcoind will spread its accesses to it ~ uniformly, causing it to gram 300MB of RAM?
 819 2013-12-29 11:48:29 <gmaxwell> you're repeating 300MB like its relevant.
 820 2013-12-29 11:48:36 <gmaxwell> the size now isn't an issue at all
 821 2013-12-29 11:48:43 <gmaxwell> it's what the size can be later.
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 823 2013-12-29 11:49:10 <gmaxwell> esp when it stopped looking polylogarithmic in the number of historic transactions after SD was created.
 824 2013-12-29 11:49:18 <berndj> i'm just throwing it out as an example. (it already causes me pain btw, i think - my computer isn't loaded with GB upon GB)
 825 2013-12-29 11:49:36 <gmaxwell> huh? it doesn't cause you pain.
 826 2013-12-29 11:49:47 <Joric> hey greg! no hard feelings, right?
 827 2013-12-29 11:49:51 <gmaxwell> how long do you take to verify a new block?
 828 2013-12-29 11:50:00 <gmaxwell> Joric: hm?
 829 2013-12-29 11:50:33 <berndj> gmaxwell, the pain isn't in bitcoind; it's that bitcoind touches all this memory that causes the kernel to swap a bunch of other stuff i'm doing out
 830 2013-12-29 11:51:13 <Joric> did anyone really measue how much time takes a full blown ECDSA multiplication (gpu accelerated if possible?) comparing to a single sha256? i frankly did not
 831 2013-12-29 11:51:16 <gmaxwell> berndj: in any case, it's both that any verifying node must have the data readily available, and as it spills out of ram block validation speed drops off enormously.
 832 2013-12-29 11:51:18 <Joric> *measure
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 834 2013-12-29 11:52:39 <Joric> i just always stumble upon ppl why mention 'rainbow tables' in brainwallet context, i know the term but i doubt it's really applicable
 835 2013-12-29 11:52:45 <Joric> *who
 836 2013-12-29 11:52:46 <gmaxwell> Joric: you mean a multiplication with the generator?  Due to precomputation a multiplication with a random point and a multiplication with the generator aren't the same.
 837 2013-12-29 11:52:48 <berndj> gmaxwell, what i was getting at is that it isn't necessary for 1bitcoineater... and the like to be in core; it's okay if those just sit on disk, so i was wondering (if this isn't already done) if it'd make sense to have a 2-tier utxo db?
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 839 2013-12-29 11:53:08 <Joric> gmaxwell, how is it different from a random point
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 841 2013-12-29 11:53:28 <Joric> it's not vanitygen that's for sure
 842 2013-12-29 11:53:43 <gmaxwell> Joric: its substantially faster if implementated correctly.
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 844 2013-12-29 11:54:42 <berndj> maybe i'm just misunderstanding the problem; is it that the utxo db is bloating with outputs that will *never* be spent, or that there just are that many unspent outputs that are likely to be spent "soon"?
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 846 2013-12-29 11:56:15 <gmaxwell> berndj: they already do sit on disk, but there are a large number of outputs which are not discernable. only very recently created ones have a obviously higher hitrate.
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 848 2013-12-29 11:56:24 <Joric> gmaxwell, what do you mean really? eg. build up a huge 'rainbow table' of hashes, sort it up and use interpolation or something like that?
 849 2013-12-29 11:56:54 <gmaxwell> Joric: ... no.
 850 2013-12-29 11:58:03 <Joric> i've stumbled upon batched ecdsa but i doubt it's 'substantially faster'
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 864 2013-12-29 12:12:34 <gmaxwell> Joric: fast code to multiply by G on my laptop can generate 171,159 random pubkeys per second.
 865 2013-12-29 12:12:40 <Polyatomic> is the difficulty really high on test net for bitcoin ?
 866 2013-12-29 12:13:26 <Joric> gmaxwell, yeah that's about it, thousands, not millions
 867 2013-12-29 12:13:45 <gmaxwell> Joric: sure, its _much_ faster on an fpga however.
 868 2013-12-29 12:15:17 <gmaxwell> Joric: well hundreds of thousands.
 869 2013-12-29 12:16:15 <gmaxwell> on a gpu, I have no idea.
 870 2013-12-29 12:16:25 <Joric> not billions either
 871 2013-12-29 12:16:38 <gmaxwell> Joric: potentially, on an fpga farm.
 872 2013-12-29 12:17:27 <gmaxwell> it's not fundimentally an expensive operation, it just doesn't map neatly to x86 cpus due to everything being large field operations.
 873 2013-12-29 12:17:53 <gmaxwell> wrt rainbow tables, you sound like you misunderstand what a rainbow table is. One need not be exhaustive.
 874 2013-12-29 12:18:34 <Joric> idk really never tried to layout a custom fpga
 875 2013-12-29 12:20:36 <Joric> as i understand it rainbow tables is basically a set of сontrol points for interpolation, assuming interpolation is possible
 876 2013-12-29 12:21:36 <gmaxwell> no.
 877 2013-12-29 12:22:00 <gmaxwell> well, I suppose you could see it that way.
 878 2013-12-29 12:22:06 <gmaxwell> it _makes_ interpolation possible.
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 880 2013-12-29 12:23:01 <gmaxwell> basically a that kind of time memory tradeoff invents an order for (input, output) pairs. The order doesn't matter, only that it is determinstic.
 881 2013-12-29 12:23:13 <gmaxwell> Once an order has been invented, then you record control points.
 882 2013-12-29 12:23:45 <gmaxwell> When you later want to look up the input for a given output, you start incrementing that ordering function starting from the output until you find a control point.
 883 2013-12-29 12:24:04 <gmaxwell> then you look up what the _prior_ control point was in the order and increment from there.
 884 2013-12-29 12:24:20 <gmaxwell> the penutimate step before you get back to where you started was the input.
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 886 2013-12-29 12:27:07 <gmaxwell> Joric: the typical way this is done is that you need two functions— your forward function, and a (pseudo-)inverse function. the inverse function takes an output and converts it to a determinstic 'random' input of the space of likely inputs. With those functions in hand you've defined an order.
 887 2013-12-29 12:27:46 <Joric> sorry always wanted to ask do you blame yourself in what has happened with Aaron Swartz, did he bother about that jstor thing that has been released on tpb
 888 2013-12-29 12:28:46 <gmaxwell> the fuck?
 889 2013-12-29 12:29:02 <gmaxwell> No, a got a thank you letter from him. but seriously.
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 892 2013-12-29 12:31:24 * nsh blinks
 893 2013-12-29 12:31:49 <tg0> Hi folks, first time here.. Can someone explain compressed public keys to me? I'm writing the BIP38 specification in PHP, stuck trying to convert to a compressed public key (this much is mostly ok), however recovering the y-coordinate is my biggest issue here - I haven't a clue
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 896 2013-12-29 12:33:49 <tg0> particularly if anyone has used Mathias Danters phpecc library to do it.
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 898 2013-12-29 12:34:15 <Joric> sorry it was really random as i said i just write search for those guys
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 900 2013-12-29 12:36:38 <Joric> tg0 - uncompressed = byte type +x +y, compressed = byte type + x OR y
 901 2013-12-29 12:37:01 <Joric> you may reconstruct the second coordinate
 902 2013-12-29 12:38:12 <tg0> Joric - uncompressed byte type is 04, correct? my understanding is the compressed  byte type comes from y. it's either even or odd, which gives 02, or 03.. But it's reconstructing the second coordinate that I'm not sure about
 903 2013-12-29 12:39:30 <tg0> I get that there could be (x,y1) and (x, y2) at a particular point on an EC, so the compressed byte type basically just tells you which to use.. but, there is where I'm lacking - a way to get y
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 905 2013-12-29 12:39:57 <tg0> sorry at a particular x on an EC*
 906 2013-12-29 12:41:29 <keyboard> Calculate it with the formula of the curve
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 908 2013-12-29 12:43:31 <Joric> oh i'm sorry not "byte type + x OR y", it's byte "odd OR even" + x, ALWAYS X (not Y)
 909 2013-12-29 12:44:51 <tg0> keyboard- I had avoided that approach because I wasn't sure if gmp will return an array when solving y=sqrt(whatever) , but thanks I'll give it a shot
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 911 2013-12-29 12:46:09 <tg0> and Joric, is the odd/even test simply:  (y % 2 == 0) ? even : odd
 912 2013-12-29 12:46:12 <Joric> not odd/even either, just +/-
 913 2013-12-29 12:46:44 <tg0> hmm k, that's where I was unsure. I've yet to see a negative y coordinate
 914 2013-12-29 12:47:44 <tg0> I'll play around and see if I can spot it. cheers guys
 915 2013-12-29 12:47:55 <Joric> yep, the byte itself is if (y.isEven()) { enc.unshift(0x02); } else { enc.unshift(0x03); } see bitcoinjs
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 919 2013-12-29 12:49:39 <tg0> yeah, was looking at that alright.
 920 2013-12-29 12:49:41 <Joric> i wrote otc-verification for compressed keys but i don't really remember the code reconstructing y from x
 921 2013-12-29 12:50:28 <Joric> see pull #33 https://github.com/nanotube/supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/pull/33
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 930 2013-12-29 13:00:16 <Joric> got 6 btc for it... sweet 2012
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 932 2013-12-29 13:02:41 <Joric> fuck me for that theme with aaron swartz i shouldn't mention it i just really don't know shit about that jstor torrent and how it worked
 933 2013-12-29 13:04:59 <tg0> Joric, mind if I pm?
 934 2013-12-29 13:05:10 <Joric> tg0, go ahead
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 958 2013-12-29 13:42:00 <greyox> .
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 963 2013-12-29 13:44:04 <greyox> hi
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 974 2013-12-29 13:57:50 <airbreather> So if someone were to be working on developing another Bitcoin client, is this the place to talk about the nitty-gritty details of such a thing?  Such as all the wonderful different little tx script opcodes?
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 976 2013-12-29 13:59:43 <gmaxwell> Yes. Although I will now repeat my standard mantra: I would strongly discourage someone from writing yet another client right now, there are a lot of other interesting things which need to be build other than more clients, and a lot of existing clients that could use love and care.
 977 2013-12-29 14:00:41 <gmaxwell> Writing a bitcoin client is unusually difficult and not in fun ways, because of the need to be pedantically exact about so much— including perfectly immitating some bugs— because its a cryptographic consensus system.
 978 2013-12-29 14:01:04 <greyox> Please did someone managed to compile bitcoinqtmsvc2012? (bitcoin source port to VS2012)
 979 2013-12-29 14:01:36 <greyox> I mean this project: http://bitcoinqtmsvc2012.codeplex.com/
 980 2013-12-29 14:03:10 <greyox> Or is there a better way to learn bitcoin source code, if you have windows?
 981 2013-12-29 14:03:45 <gmaxwell> greyox: normally bitcoin is compiled with mingw. There are instructions available on compiling it with mingw online. Compiling with VS2012 is not recommended.
 982 2013-12-29 14:04:58 <greyox> But then I can't debug the code in Visual Studio, can I? I am actually already close to finish it, everything compiles except of bitcoinQT
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 984 2013-12-29 14:06:07 <greyox> I think something is just slightly wrong with my QT configuration...
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 988 2013-12-29 14:10:10 <airbreather> gmaxwell: Thank you.  I'm aware that the reference implementation has/had some quirks that more-or-less force any given implementation to act the same way or risk forking the chain.
 989 2013-12-29 14:10:54 <airbreather> Though... is there a list of projects that could use some love and/or attention from a C#/.NET developer before I move on with my little project?
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 992 2013-12-29 14:11:45 <gmaxwell> well, I've seen https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinsharp/ mentioned.
 993 2013-12-29 14:12:53 <airbreather> I've been there, and that's actually part of the reason I wanted to make my own -- I don't like the design of BitcoinJ and BitcoinSharp, and I haven't been able to dispel the illusion that I can do better without trying it myself...
 994 2013-12-29 14:14:09 <gmaxwell> But beyond that there are just tons and tons of tools on top of bitcoin which almost no one is working on. see things like https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts   or tools for private cross chain trading or tools for blockchain escrow (though at least https://www.bitrated.com/ finally exists) ... etc. a lot of these things present complex UI changes— no one really knows how to present a friendly interface on a complex cryptographic ...
 995 2013-12-29 14:14:15 <gmaxwell> ... protocol.
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 997 2013-12-29 14:17:54 <gmaxwell> airbreather: wrt design, you may find that you have less freedom than you think, since the design of bitcoin itself imposes some abstraction limitations. ... but also, indeed, perhaps you could get a design you like better, but at the end of the day will people be able to do anything new and interesting with bitcoin if you do a somewhat better reimplementation in another language?  Will you have the resources to keep updating it as the ...
 998 2013-12-29 14:18:01 <gmaxwell> ... protocol changes? etc.  okay, I've problably belabored it too much now, you've heard my sales pitch.
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1000 2013-12-29 14:20:26 <greyox> gmaxwell, and you the big guys, what development environment do you use?
1001 2013-12-29 14:20:35 <greyox> for bitcoin development
1002 2013-12-29 14:21:57 <Luke-Jr> greyox: almost everyone uses Linux
1003 2013-12-29 14:22:16 <Luke-Jr> I don't think there's a consensus of editor software, nor is there a need for one
1004 2013-12-29 14:22:26 <greyox> Linux?! ok...
1005 2013-12-29 14:22:57 <Luke-Jr> no idea why anyone would use Windows anymore
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1007 2013-12-29 14:23:20 <greyox> Visual Studio is best env I've seen so far...but let's not do flamewar here :)
1008 2013-12-29 14:25:04 <greyox> And if you do some change to the bitcoin source code locally, like some fix let's say, do you need to cross-compile it to different platforms to see if it works? Or do I need to run some smoke-tests or whatever to check I didn't screwedup something?
1009 2013-12-29 14:25:31 <greyox> like is there some automated testing framework?
1010 2013-12-29 14:25:52 <Luke-Jr> building will result in bitcoin_test
1011 2013-12-29 14:25:58 <Luke-Jr> that runs unit tests
1012 2013-12-29 14:26:24 <gmaxwell> there is also a more complete system testing harness, but that takes some external parts and is more work to setup.
1013 2013-12-29 14:26:39 <greyox> So,if I want to build on Windows, I should use only mingw? Not Visual studio?
1014 2013-12-29 14:26:58 <gmaxwell> From linux cross compiling is trivial, but fortunately the code is portable to our supported platforms and we've almost never had a platform specific bug in our own code.
1015 2013-12-29 14:27:00 <Luke-Jr> greyox: that's recommended.
1016 2013-12-29 14:27:06 <Luke-Jr> greyox: Microsoft's compiler sucks bad
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1018 2013-12-29 14:27:17 <greyox> No, it doesn't...
1019 2013-12-29 14:27:18 <Luke-Jr> greyox: the only active Windows developer uses Qt Creator
1020 2013-12-29 14:27:30 <Luke-Jr> yes it does, or else it would build the standard C++ code without changes..
1021 2013-12-29 14:27:38 <gmaxwell> If you're comfortable using visual studio and you can get it working, and want to develop from it— please do.  Perhaps you'll do some distinctive work because its easier from that toolset.
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1023 2013-12-29 14:28:15 <gmaxwell> just be aware you'll somewhat alone there, — which can be good.
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1025 2013-12-29 14:29:03 <greyox> Ok I am close to having it compiled, I'll find someone who can help with the QT setup, other than that it compiles, and the bitcoind ran correctly compiled with VS2012.
1026 2013-12-29 14:29:03 <Luke-Jr> on the other hand, it looks like this codebase has some real bug fixes: http://bitcoinqtmsvc2012.codeplex.com/SourceControl/changeset/31033
1027 2013-12-29 14:29:24 <greyox> yest that's what I am using
1028 2013-12-29 14:29:26 <Luke-Jr> I think it's legitimate to assume assert can be safely #define'd to a noop.. so this is a real bug
1029 2013-12-29 14:29:32 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, diversity is generally helpful... causes you to find real bugs.
1030 2013-12-29 14:29:52 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: uuuhhh.
1031 2013-12-29 14:30:20 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: at least, even glibc has an option to noop assert()
1032 2013-12-29 14:30:22 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3344
1033 2013-12-29 14:30:38 <Luke-Jr> ah
1034 2013-12-29 14:30:53 <Luke-Jr> good, already fixed in master then :D
1035 2013-12-29 14:31:36 <Luke-Jr> one downside to that fix is, however, that the assert errors are much less useful; but oh well
1036 2013-12-29 14:33:50 <gmaxwell> meh, line numbers good enough.
1037 2013-12-29 14:33:53 <gmaxwell> 10:58 < gmaxwell> sipa: most awesome backdoor sequence ever: put all rand calls directly in the assert macro... then later get in a patch to NDEBUG the codebase. :P
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1047 2013-12-29 14:47:23 <airbreather> gmaxwell: Thank you for your input.  I really do appreciate it, and you've made me seriously reconsider whether my little project is really worth redirecting effort that can make other, smaller projects more awesome.  I do think that if I really knock this out of the park and design a sufficiently abstract system (which is admittedly unlikely, just by virtue of how big of a task it is), I can le
1048 2013-12-29 14:47:23 <airbreather> verage MEF (Managed Extensibility Framework) to enable other developers to extend or replace certain parts of the system without having to recompile or change any of the core code.  One of my stretch goals is to make it so that an external interface can be used to store private keys.  Someone could create some piece of hardware... all it would expose over the USB interface is "get my public key"
1049 2013-12-29 14:47:24 <airbreather>  and "sign this transaction".  Then, with only a driver to hook it up to the system and dropping their completely separate plugin into my system (again, no changing core code), that address just shows up in their wallet and can be used as easily as using a "normal" address.
1050 2013-12-29 14:47:30 <airbreather> wow
1051 2013-12-29 14:47:32 <airbreather> sorry
1052 2013-12-29 14:47:34 <airbreather> for the wall of text
1053 2013-12-29 14:47:56 <gmaxwell> :)
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1061 2013-12-29 14:55:30 <airbreather> Another stretch goal is to expose an extension point so that someone can create additional GUI views that get limited capabilities within the system.  So, someone could develop a plug-in view that would allow creating the kinds of transactions we see used for contracts or what not, again as an external plugin that can be developed independently and dropped into a folder to wire it up into the sy
1062 2013-12-29 14:55:31 <airbreather> stem.
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1065 2013-12-29 14:57:25 <airbreather> Also, pending research into the feasibility, I'm thinking of exposing a "reduced-functionality" mode that would allow an external data store to only keep a pruned copy of the blockchain, pruned however they would like as long as it can supply the capabilities required by the reduced-functionality mode.
1066 2013-12-29 14:57:41 <abishek> is there a way to find out how many confirmations are received on a testnet transaction using the blockexporer?
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1070 2013-12-29 14:59:45 <airbreather> I do not know of any projects that would make all of these possible, and I am just crazy enough to actually go about trying it.  So a sincere thank you, gmaxwell, for making me rethink whether or not this is worth it.  I think it is.
1071 2013-12-29 15:00:04 <abishek> i am trying to get the transaction details of the testnet transaction @ http://blockexplorer.com/testnet . I am not able to figure out how many confirmations are received for a transaction, could someone please advice how to do it?
1072 2013-12-29 15:00:30 <gmaxwell> abishek: why do you want to know?
1073 2013-12-29 15:00:30 <CodeShark> check the block height for the block containing it
1074 2013-12-29 15:00:38 <CodeShark> subtract it from the best current hight
1075 2013-12-29 15:00:41 <CodeShark> and add 1
1076 2013-12-29 15:00:53 <airbreather> walls-of-text aside, is https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script up-to-date with all the transaction opcodes that are currently supported in the mainline bitcoin client?
1077 2013-12-29 15:01:00 <airbreather> so, everything not in red is enabled
1078 2013-12-29 15:01:47 <gmaxwell> yes, but the wiki page isn't normative or complete in every detail. If you implement from that you'll likely implement some things incorrectly.
1079 2013-12-29 15:01:59 <gmaxwell> (though, when you discover that, please do update the wiki page)
1080 2013-12-29 15:02:06 <abishek> gmaxwell, I have setup walletnotify event and it doesn't seem to notify of any confirmations but when I use getTransactionMethod I see that the number of confirmations for the transaction is about 700 of them
1081 2013-12-29 15:02:33 <abishek> gmaxwell, i only get notified when a transaction comes in and not for confirmations
1082 2013-12-29 15:02:37 <airbreather> gmaxwell: thanks
1083 2013-12-29 15:03:21 <airbreather> I'll try to update the wiki if I find these issues... at the minimum, they'll end up as documentation in my code if this ever comes to light.
1084 2013-12-29 15:03:54 <gmaxwell> abishek: ah, well the confirms is just the block height now minus the height where it was confirmed.
1085 2013-12-29 15:03:57 <gmaxwell> as CodeShark said
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1088 2013-12-29 15:11:14 <abishek> gmaxwell, so there is no actual use of the walletnotify?
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1100 2013-12-29 15:23:01 <CodeShark> for live transaction data, I've got a websocket API: wscat -c ws://altcoins.ws:12344
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1102 2013-12-29 15:23:21 <CodeShark> then send {"method":"subscribe","params":["tx"]}
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1107 2013-12-29 15:24:17 <CodeShark> I have a filter command and a command for getting it to notify you at specific confirmation counts
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1109 2013-12-29 15:24:45 <CodeShark> so no, I would never use walletnotify :p
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1119 2013-12-29 15:28:06 <abishek> CodeShark, if I have 1000's of transactions on a wallet, how do you intend this need to work?
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1121 2013-12-29 15:28:35 <CodeShark> you create a filter over your wallet's signing scripts
1122 2013-12-29 15:28:39 <abishek> CodeShark, my wallet is bitcoind based
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1124 2013-12-29 15:29:03 <CodeShark> doesn't matter - you can export the keys and construct a filter from that list
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1127 2013-12-29 15:30:12 <abishek> so, am not sure if I understand by the meaning of a filter. Does it mean to loop through the list of transactions recieved, kind of like a timer job and get the transaction data periodicaly?
1128 2013-12-29 15:30:24 <CodeShark> no, absolutely not
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1131 2013-12-29 15:30:46 <abishek> CodeShark, can you advice on what you mean by a filter
1132 2013-12-29 15:31:05 <CodeShark> what defines transactions being in your wallet is that they contain either input scripts or output scripts implicating one or more of the keys in your wallet
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1134 2013-12-29 15:31:21 <CodeShark> so say you have a wallet with 1000 keys in it
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1136 2013-12-29 15:31:53 <CodeShark> for each key, there is an output script and an input script format corresponding to it
1137 2013-12-29 15:32:14 <abishek> ok
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1139 2013-12-29 15:32:25 <CodeShark> so all one needs to do is connect to a peer and filter the transaction stream
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1145 2013-12-29 15:33:30 <CodeShark> unfortunately, bitcoind does not provide a very high level interface allowing this - to do this you must use the p2p protocol
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1147 2013-12-29 15:33:50 <CodeShark> hence the websocket server, which serves as the link
1148 2013-12-29 15:34:14 <abishek> CodeShark, where can i find more details about the output and input scripts?
1149 2013-12-29 15:34:38 <CodeShark> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
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1151 2013-12-29 15:35:38 <CodeShark> you can also use the getrawtransaction and decoderawtransaction commands with bitcoind to see the scripts
1152 2013-12-29 15:35:42 Wasp54 has joined
1153 2013-12-29 15:35:53 <sipa> note that
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1155 2013-12-29 15:36:09 <sipa> getrawtransaction only really works when txindex is enabled
1156 2013-12-29 15:36:21 Wasp54 has joined
1157 2013-12-29 15:36:26 <sipa> and can do an inline decoding if you pass 1 as extra argument
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1160 2013-12-29 15:36:35 <abishek> ok, i will have to figure out the scripts to see how to implement them into my app
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1162 2013-12-29 15:36:42 <abishek> sipa, thnx I will make a note of it
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1165 2013-12-29 15:36:54 <sipa> what do you need custom scripts for?
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1167 2013-12-29 15:37:07 <CodeShark> sipa: he's looking to filter a transaction stream
1168 2013-12-29 15:37:24 <CodeShark> wants to see whether they belong to a particular wallet
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1171 2013-12-29 15:37:50 <sipa> watch-only wallet?
1172 2013-12-29 15:37:57 <sipa> no need to understand the detaiks of scripts
1173 2013-12-29 15:38:09 <CodeShark> you do if you want to do it right :)
1174 2013-12-29 15:38:10 <abishek> I basically have a web app that needs to show a list of transactions per address that receives money and I only want to show the list of transactions that have confirmation more that 5
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1176 2013-12-29 15:39:22 <sipa> CodeShark: what constitutes a wallet is application defined
1177 2013-12-29 15:39:52 <sipa> if you have a watch-only version of wallet compatible with that application's wallet, there should not be any problem
1178 2013-12-29 15:40:13 <abishek> the way I implemented was using the walletNotify which notifies the transaction id for every transaction received which works correctly but I am trying to figure out a way to query bitcoind to get the list of confirmations, so that i flag the transaction to a successful one when the confirmations reach 5. I was under the impression that wallet notify also notifies when confirmations on a transaction is received
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1181 2013-12-29 15:40:46 <CodeShark> I really hope the term "watch-only wallet" soon gives way to the term "transaction stream filter" :)
1182 2013-12-29 15:40:55 <sipa> walletnotify notifies when a transaction is first seen, and when it confirms the first time (which may coimcide)
1183 2013-12-29 15:41:13 <sipa> CodeShark: i consider the latter a generic implementation for the first
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1185 2013-12-29 15:41:29 <CodeShark> it is entirely possible to write a generic transaction stream filter that supports ANY conceivable wallet app
1186 2013-12-29 15:41:39 <sipa> agree
1187 2013-12-29 15:41:44 <abishek> sipa, yes that is what is happening, the first time it gets notified when a payment is received and the second time when it reaches the block with the block details
1188 2013-12-29 15:41:57 <CodeShark> sipa: moreover, that is the correct architecture to pursue :)
1189 2013-12-29 15:42:25 <sipa> CodeShark: perhaps, but it's certainly not necessary to expose that to the user
1190 2013-12-29 15:42:42 <abishek> CodeShark, is there any specific example that is published on the internet to know how to implement it using different languages? something similar to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)
1191 2013-12-29 15:43:09 <CodeShark> sipa: the main reason I stopped working on watch-only wallets for bitcoind was because I believe a service-oriented architecture that incorporates a process which allows filtered stream subscriptions is the way to go
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1193 2013-12-29 15:43:32 <sipa> CodeShark: perhaps
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1195 2013-12-29 15:43:55 <sipa> for large-scale installations, something like that sounds like the way to go for sure
1196 2013-12-29 15:44:06 <CodeShark> sipa: even for small websites :)
1197 2013-12-29 15:44:37 <CodeShark> I started out in bitcoin trying to write some web apps that did exactly what abishek is talking about…this was nearly three years ago
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1199 2013-12-29 15:45:01 <CodeShark> I soon realized there was no good way to do it with existing software, so that's why I ended up writing my own :p
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1206 2013-12-29 15:45:58 <CodeShark> abishek: I intend to publish a comprehensive solution to this problem very soon
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1211 2013-12-29 15:46:21 <CodeShark> one that exposes a very high-level API
1212 2013-12-29 15:47:01 <abishek> ok, am more on ruby and php developer so am not sure how to proceed.
1213 2013-12-29 15:47:18 <CodeShark> as long as you can use websockets you can subscribe to streams
1214 2013-12-29 15:47:34 <CodeShark> I can also have HTTP callbacks, but this is a rather inefficient mechanism
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1216 2013-12-29 15:48:19 <CodeShark> the programming language is irrelevant - as long as it has good libraries for websockets
1217 2013-12-29 15:48:46 <odie5533> What other things are there that use the blockchain? I saw people using it to embed messages.
1218 2013-12-29 15:51:14 <sipa> odie5533: the blockchain's only purpose is in maintaining the bitcoin currency ledger; using it for other purposes increase the costs for everyone involved, likely including who don't care about other purposes
1219 2013-12-29 15:51:39 <abishek> CodeShark, sorry to ask this, but am not sure where to start, is there any simple example in any language or library that I can look to understand how to go ahead
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1221 2013-12-29 15:51:50 <odie5533> sipa: I still find them interesting.
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1223 2013-12-29 15:52:02 <sipa> odie5533: doesn't mean everyone does
1224 2013-12-29 15:52:11 <odie5533> sipa: If you write a message in the blockchain, it's backed up everywhere forever!
1225 2013-12-29 15:52:18 <CodeShark> abishek: of the popular web dev languages, node.js (javascript) is probably the easiest to use for async stuff
1226 2013-12-29 15:52:25 <odie5533> sipa: They don't need to copy my transaction data if they don't want to.
1227 2013-12-29 15:52:47 <sipa> odie5533: they have to, as they cannot know it is not part of bitcoin's digital consensus
1228 2013-12-29 15:52:54 <odie5533> sipa: And I'm paying the tx fee, so I should be able to put what I want
1229 2013-12-29 15:53:09 <sipa> odie5533: you're not paying me
1230 2013-12-29 15:53:16 <berndj> abishek, there's also -blocknotify (but there's a caveat: it doesn't notify when it's doing the sync on startup)
1231 2013-12-29 15:53:17 <sipa> but storing things on my hard drive
1232 2013-12-29 15:53:21 <sipa> i consider that abuse
1233 2013-12-29 15:53:38 <odie5533> sipa: I consider it abuse that's your copying my stuff to your hard drive!
1234 2013-12-29 15:53:57 <sipa> odie5533: but bitcoin's blockchain's purpose is clear
1235 2013-12-29 15:54:08 <odie5533> Store data that looks like transactions.
1236 2013-12-29 15:54:14 <sipa> odie5533: you can choose to participate in that or not
1237 2013-12-29 15:54:35 <odie5533> sipa: hah, you're really against alternative uses for the blockchain huh?
1238 2013-12-29 15:54:35 <sipa> if you want another purpose, you can use your own blockchaim
1239 2013-12-29 15:54:38 <sipa> yes
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1241 2013-12-29 15:55:01 <sipa> you're increasing the costs for the whole world to maintain the bitcoin ledger
1242 2013-12-29 15:55:08 <odie5533> I love em. That's why I'm looking for more. I was trying to figure out how we could come up with a game that is played using the blockchain
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1244 2013-12-29 15:55:36 <odie5533> sipa: they get paid the tx fee
1245 2013-12-29 15:55:46 <odie5533> sipa: and there's already tons of volume. it wouldn't add much volume
1246 2013-12-29 15:56:04 <sipa> if everyone reasons that way, there may be a ton extra volu!e
1247 2013-12-29 15:56:19 <sipa> and you're only paying a fee to miners
1248 2013-12-29 15:56:34 <sipa> not to the rest of the world that validates whether miners aren't cheatimg
1249 2013-12-29 15:56:51 <Belxjander> sipa: easiest way to do it afaik is to make an "XREF:" with Identifier as part of the transaction and deliberately "orphan" the data blocks and make them entirely optional as to whether the "XREF:" markers get downloaded (default off/ignore)... would that satisfy limitation of alternate usage?
1250 2013-12-29 15:56:58 <odie5533> sipa: if the entire system is such a house of cards that people could easily abuse it, then it wasn't meant to be.
1251 2013-12-29 15:57:30 <sipa> odie5533: i'm sure that over time transaction fees will drive out uneconomic activity
1252 2013-12-29 15:57:44 <airbreather> In transaction scripts, docs for OP_2OVER say "x1 x2 x3 x4 -- x1 x2 x3 x4 x1 x2", and the code does too, but looking at the code, wouldn't this really result in "x3 x4 x1 x2 x3 x4"?
1253 2013-12-29 15:58:06 <sipa> but as long as mining is primarily paid using the subsidy, i doubt that can work
1254 2013-12-29 15:58:17 <berndj> sipa, but ubituitous backup is of *tremendous* value to its users. just a pity about that externality...
1255 2013-12-29 15:58:43 <sipa> berndj: and ridiculously costly
1256 2013-12-29 15:58:54 <sipa> berndj: use an encrypted dropbox account
1257 2013-12-29 15:58:59 <Belxjander> berndj: they would then need to have a service that they can pay for...no? why abuse a different service to do it ?
1258 2013-12-29 15:59:02 <gmaxwell> berndj: if it really were, it would actually exist.. but as you can see— it doesn't.
1259 2013-12-29 15:59:14 <berndj> yeah, to people other than those whose backup it is (the very definition of externality)
1260 2013-12-29 15:59:49 <Belxjander> berndj: I've solved the ubiquitios backup problems for myself at least... and my solution is not going to work for everyone
1261 2013-12-29 15:59:54 <gmaxwell> berndj: or I suppose it does: http://datacoin.info/index.php?id=index but it appears that it's basically unused for its stated purpose.
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1263 2013-12-29 15:59:59 <odie5533> sipa: woah you can even put pictures in the blockchain
1264 2013-12-29 16:00:09 <sipa> odie5533: unfortunately
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1266 2013-12-29 16:00:58 <gmaxwell> odie5533: data is data. you can put pictures in folds you make to book pages in a public library.
1267 2013-12-29 16:01:17 <odie5533> gmaxwell: but these pictures are copied by everyone all over the planet
1268 2013-12-29 16:01:31 <odie5533> and stored in a ledger that could become the future of currency everywhere
1269 2013-12-29 16:01:31 <sipa> now try to compute how much that costs
1270 2013-12-29 16:01:36 <gmaxwell> increasingly fewer people the more pictures you add.
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1273 2013-12-29 16:01:53 <gmaxwell> odie5533: and decreasingly less likely to become the future of anything the more pictures you add.
1274 2013-12-29 16:01:53 <odie5533> sipa: right now it's dirt cheap! which means you could get your message stored forever for practically nothing
1275 2013-12-29 16:02:08 <odie5533> gmaxwell: I will only add a few to ensure I don't overwhelm it.
1276 2013-12-29 16:02:11 <berndj> Belxjander, i'm not advocating the abuse, i'm just speaking of the incentives at work (for possibly only hypothetical users, for now)
1277 2013-12-29 16:02:33 <gmaxwell> why do we tolerate these antisocial jerks in here?
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1279 2013-12-29 16:02:53 <gmaxwell> odie5533: dipa didn't ask how much you pay, he asked how much it costs.
1280 2013-12-29 16:02:55 <odie5533> gmaxwell: Why is using the blockchain for incredible new purposes antisocial?
1281 2013-12-29 16:03:10 <gmaxwell> In other words what is the cost of the resources you are taking from others?
1282 2013-12-29 16:03:16 <odie5533> gmaxwell: Costs for everyone with a blockchain to store a few extra bytes on their hard drive? very little
1283 2013-12-29 16:03:19 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: because otherwise we would be "spreee killing" everyone who stuck their head up and said "I'm stupid, duh!" ?
1284 2013-12-29 16:03:32 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: I'm okay with that.
1285 2013-12-29 16:03:40 <berndj> odie5533, because it imposes a cost on others who do not wish to participate in this new purpose which isn't "incredible" to them, but only annoying
1286 2013-12-29 16:03:46 <odie5533> gmaxwell: With that logic, sending any bitcoin transaction that is avoidable is a waste of resources.
1287 2013-12-29 16:03:56 <gmaxwell> odie5533: if it were really nothing then explict services for this would actually exist.
1288 2013-12-29 16:04:02 <Belxjander> odie5533: depends... I have 1 system here incapable of storing the basic blockchain... another which can't process it but can store it and am looking at needing an additional one for doing storage+processing
1289 2013-12-29 16:04:30 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: you and I maybe okay with it... but it would be *lonely* after a while...
1290 2013-12-29 16:04:35 <gmaxwell> odie5533: but it futhers the usage of the currency which is something that inherently benefits all the users. That what it does. It's a currency. If you dont like that, you can not participate.
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1292 2013-12-29 16:05:15 <gmaxwell> odie5533: in any case, there are other blockchains expressly for this purpose, please go use them. They want your usag.e
1293 2013-12-29 16:05:29 <gmaxwell> And they've made modifications to be far more accomidating to it.
1294 2013-12-29 16:09:19 <CodeShark> the simplest quick-and-dirty way to get transaction updates with confirmation from bitcoind is probably to poll listtransactions :)
1295 2013-12-29 16:10:35 <CodeShark> probably even faster than using -blocknotify and -walletnotify :p
1296 2013-12-29 16:10:41 <CodeShark> and the logic is far simpler
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1298 2013-12-29 16:12:31 <CodeShark> poll listtransactions every, say, 5 seconds using a count of, say, 10. if you haven't seen the last transaction in the list yet, make sure you've seen the first one…if not, increase the count and try again
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1300 2013-12-29 16:15:29 <CodeShark> changes to blockhash are a giveaway that a reorg has taken place
1301 2013-12-29 16:16:03 <CodeShark> as long as no changes to blockhash occur, when the most recent transactions get bumped up a confirmation, all other transactions with more than that many confirmations also get bumped up a confirmation
1302 2013-12-29 16:16:46 <CodeShark> store a complete list of transactions on your end, update it whenever changes occur
1303 2013-12-29 16:16:52 <CodeShark> and you're done :)
1304 2013-12-29 16:17:37 <abishek> am storing the list, but when to check for change occurs other than a cron or timer?
1305 2013-12-29 16:17:59 <CodeShark> to poll you'd have to use some timer
1306 2013-12-29 16:18:02 <CodeShark> (or a cron job)
1307 2013-12-29 16:18:43 <abishek> ok, so there is no other way?
1308 2013-12-29 16:19:10 <CodeShark> well, that's by far the simplest way I can think of off the top of my head
1309 2013-12-29 16:19:56 <odie5533> gmaxwell: doesn't adding other things to the blockchain further the bitcoin cause too?
1310 2013-12-29 16:20:23 <HM2> I see there's a trezor talk tonight here at 30c3
1311 2013-12-29 16:20:29 <CodeShark> is it pretty? no, not really. is it efficient? not especially. but neither are -walletnotify and -blocknotify, and these other approaches seem to introduce many more complications (both in terms of application logic as well as deployment strategy)
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1315 2013-12-29 16:21:33 <CodeShark> the correct way to do it is using full-duplex i/o with event handlers
1316 2013-12-29 16:22:04 <odie5533> gmaxwell: and here I was planing to develop tools to use the blockchain for other neat things. I didn't realize people would be so against it
1317 2013-12-29 16:22:37 <abishek> CodeShark, the only problem with pooling is  if i had a 1000 transactions its kinda crazy...
1318 2013-12-29 16:22:51 <CodeShark> are you planning on getting 1000 transactions every 5 seconds?
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1320 2013-12-29 16:23:12 <gmaxwell> odie5533: sorry, the first 500 times this discussion was had everyone was thoughtful and discussed it with careful consideration at length.
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1322 2013-12-29 16:23:49 <gmaxwell> and then after the jackasses and the attempts to add child porn, and the commercial uploading tools, and the whatever— the discussion is a little more compressed now.
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1331 2013-12-29 16:27:33 <CodeShar_> silly ISP disconnected me
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1333 2013-12-29 16:28:21 <abishek> CodeShark, its a public app, so it is possible
1334 2013-12-29 16:28:39 <odie5533> gmaxwell: are there any attempts to stop stuff from being added to the blockchain?
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1338 2013-12-29 16:29:49 <CodeShark> abishek: if you typed anything in the last 4 minutes I didn't get it
1339 2013-12-29 16:30:14 <abishek> CodeShark, its a public app, so it is possible that i can have 1000 transactions
1340 2013-12-29 16:30:40 <CodeShark> you will NEVER get 1000 transactions in 5 seconds…at least not within the foreseeable future
1341 2013-12-29 16:30:57 <CodeShark> 1000 transactions over the course of, say, a week isn't an issue at all
1342 2013-12-29 16:30:58 <CodeShark> lol
1343 2013-12-29 16:31:13 <CodeShark> the entire bitcoin network barely gets more than a few transactions a second at peak time
1344 2013-12-29 16:31:54 <CodeShark> so call listtransactions with a count that is around the maximum number of transactions you could expect to see at peak time within the polling period
1345 2013-12-29 16:32:16 <CodeShark> adjust it as necessary :)
1346 2013-12-29 16:33:48 <CodeShark> hell, set count to 1 for your poll
1347 2013-12-29 16:33:57 <CodeShark> if anything changes, increase count
1348 2013-12-29 16:34:47 <CodeShark> in any case, I'm not sure this is the best channel to be discussing this
1349 2013-12-29 16:38:46 <CodeShark> actually…set count very high, keep track of from
1350 2013-12-29 16:40:07 <CodeShark> oh, stupid JSON-RPC…if you use a from, it messes up the sorting
1351 2013-12-29 16:40:24 <CodeShark> or no…nvm :p
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1377 2013-12-29 17:01:34 <deanclkclk> question folks..can I use json rpc to create an image scan code for deposit?
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1381 2013-12-29 17:02:25 <deanclkclk> the QR code..what can I use to generate it?
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1386 2013-12-29 17:04:58 <sipa> using a QR code generator
1387 2013-12-29 17:05:11 <sipa> it's not included in bitcoind
1388 2013-12-29 17:05:12 <owowo> http://bitcoinmoney.com/post/9678390130/wolfram-alpha-qr-code-generator <--?
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1433 2013-12-29 17:54:39 <tholenst> So in my goal to learn more about bitcoind, I decided to refactor the mempool a bit; the result is roughly 250-300 lines of code moved from main.cpp to txmempool.cpp. However, it's far from ready for merging; I was quite careless and probably introduced some bugs. It compiles, passes the unit tests, and runs as a test client though.
1434 2013-12-29 17:55:09 <tholenst> Question is: is it worth to work more on this?
1435 2013-12-29 17:55:56 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1436 2013-12-29 17:56:46 <tholenst> If you're intested: I pushed it here https://github.com/tholenst/bitcoin/tree/mempoolmodularization
1437 2013-12-29 17:58:14 <CodeShark> can't hurt to submit a pull request :)
1438 2013-12-29 17:59:31 <CodeShark> generally speaking, I'm all for this kind of modularization
1439 2013-12-29 17:59:37 <tholenst> In the current form it doesn't improve the code. The unit tests hack around the abstraction, and I was careless.
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1446 2013-12-29 18:09:01 <tholenst> Well, it's really a core part of the client... and I will not be able to get above 90%-95% confidence that there is no bug... so I only want to invest time on it if it's not obviously wasted.
1447 2013-12-29 18:09:46 <jcorgan> any progress on getting VPATH builds working with the leveldb code?
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1455 2013-12-29 18:14:48 <jcorgan> i see now that leveldb uses a handwritten makefile
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1461 2013-12-29 18:17:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|09:17:56 <gittie> I have a question about gitian builds, what are the requirements for a build server ?
1462 2013-12-29 18:17:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|09:23:49 <gittie> fanquake: so is it possible to build on a VPS or would it have to be a dedicated platform ?
1463 2013-12-29 18:17:34 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1464 2013-12-29 18:17:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gittie: still around?
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1473 2013-12-29 18:25:34 <warren> looks like someone donated the p2pool match already
1474 2013-12-29 18:25:48 <jcorgan> tholenst: what version did you branch from?
1475 2013-12-29 18:27:11 <tholenst> jcorgan: i frequently update; so from git head. Technically, it can be automatically merged.
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1493 2013-12-29 18:48:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|checking whether the linker accepts -pie... yes
1494 2013-12-29 18:48:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Mmm, pie...
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1531 2013-12-29 19:33:49 <thermoman> blockchain.info is stuck
1532 2013-12-29 19:34:05 <thermoman> on block 277595
1533 2013-12-29 19:34:11 <thermoman> i guess the same issue as with me
1534 2013-12-29 19:34:15 <thermoman> Lock table is out of available object entries
1535 2013-12-29 19:34:22 <TheLordOfTime> ;;blocks
1536 2013-12-29 19:34:23 <gribble> 277595
1537 2013-12-29 19:34:24 <TheLordOfTime> ;;tslb
1538 2013-12-29 19:34:26 <gribble> Time since last block: 40 minutes and 20 seconds
1539 2013-12-29 19:34:29 <TheLordOfTime> thermoman, longblock
1540 2013-12-29 19:34:38 <jcorgan> looks like blockexplorer.com has the same
1541 2013-12-29 19:34:43 <thermoman> had to set set_lk_max_objects in DB_CONFIG
1542 2013-12-29 19:34:43 odie5533 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1543 2013-12-29 19:34:47 <TheLordOfTime> i think it's just a long-time-to-find block
1544 2013-12-29 19:34:49 <TheLordOfTime> they happen :)
1545 2013-12-29 19:34:52 <jcorgan> could be just that there aren't any new blocks
1546 2013-12-29 19:34:59 <TheLordOfTime> exactly
1547 2013-12-29 19:35:05 <thermoman>     "blocks" : 277603,
1548 2013-12-29 19:35:13 <thermoman> there *are* newer blocks
1549 2013-12-29 19:35:14 wangchun has quit (Quit: leaving)
1550 2013-12-29 19:35:19 <jcorgan> interesting
1551 2013-12-29 19:35:48 Alt096` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1552 2013-12-29 19:36:01 <jcorgan> yeah, i'm on 277603 as well
1553 2013-12-29 19:36:35 <TheLordOfTime> maybe blockchain.info's desynced, same with blockexplorer
1554 2013-12-29 19:36:39 <andytoshi> block 277596 is 0000000000000001947cc7acbbc9a240517f9ba19c16b4f937795c6b58019fb5
1555 2013-12-29 19:37:28 wangchun has joined
1556 2013-12-29 19:38:01 <jcorgan> where does gribble get its info
1557 2013-12-29 19:38:05 wangchun has quit (Client Quit)
1558 2013-12-29 19:38:21 liamh199864 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1559 2013-12-29 19:38:21 <andytoshi> ;;help blocks
1560 2013-12-29 19:38:22 <gribble> (blocks takes no arguments) -- Get current block count.
1561 2013-12-29 19:39:01 wangchun has joined
1562 2013-12-29 19:39:02 <thermoman> every client on client 7.x does break without DB_CONFIG modification
1563 2013-12-29 19:39:03 <wangchun> test
1564 2013-12-29 19:39:09 <wangchun> my block was orphaned
1565 2013-12-29 19:39:36 <wangchun> 277595
1566 2013-12-29 19:41:03 <wangchun> but both blockchain.info and blockexplorer.com still show my block as the top.
1567 2013-12-29 19:41:28 <jcorgan> bitcoinwatch has 277603
1568 2013-12-29 19:41:38 <thermoman> 277603 on 0.8.x clients and (0.7.x clients with set_lk_max_objects 120000)
1569 2013-12-29 19:41:39 <wangchun> what happened?
1570 2013-12-29 19:42:02 <thermoman> 277595 on 0.7.x clients missing the set_lk_max_objects setting
1571 2013-12-29 19:42:12 <wangchun> fork again?
1572 2013-12-29 19:42:16 <jcorgan> thermoman: is that a conclusion or a hypothesis
1573 2013-12-29 19:42:20 mappum has joined
1574 2013-12-29 19:42:29 <BlueMatt> has anyone tested that, or was that just an assumption?
1575 2013-12-29 19:42:30 <wangchun> i mined the first 277595
1576 2013-12-29 19:42:34 <wangchun> i use 0.8.6
1577 2013-12-29 19:42:41 patcon has joined
1578 2013-12-29 19:42:41 <wangchun> 000000000000000370f501bad48cdfb6a6713b9d51f692c5dbc90039a9d278e5
1579 2013-12-29 19:43:41 airbreather has joined
1580 2013-12-29 19:44:22 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: sipa anyone have time to look into this?
1581 2013-12-29 19:44:54 patcon has quit (Read error: No route to host)
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1583 2013-12-29 19:45:26 <greyox> Hello, I was finally able to compile bitcoinQT with visual studio. I am syncing the client now. Is there some things I should be careful about to not cause problems for the network?
1584 2013-12-29 19:45:30 <jcorgan> just left gmaxwell a voicemail
1585 2013-12-29 19:46:16 <tholenst> The block at height 277596 is quite big... "size" : 902835
1586 2013-12-29 19:46:35 Cryo has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1587 2013-12-29 19:46:35 <BlueMatt> bc.i just reorg'd
1588 2013-12-29 19:46:36 <wangchun> omg
1589 2013-12-29 19:46:45 <jcorgan> bc.i is good
1590 2013-12-29 19:47:29 <TheLordOfTime> greyox, why would you *compile* it rather than use the already compiled binaries
1591 2013-12-29 19:47:35 <TheLordOfTime> (just curious)
1592 2013-12-29 19:48:23 <greyox> I want to learn the code, so that might involve debugging, trying to change something and see if it works, etc.
1593 2013-12-29 19:48:25 <wangchun> i have two blocks orphaned today, too bad
1594 2013-12-29 19:48:35 <jcorgan> blockexplorer.com is still stuck at 277595
1595 2013-12-29 19:48:44 <BlueMatt> my node doesnt see a reorg for this...
1596 2013-12-29 19:49:10 <BlueMatt> oh, yea I do
1597 2013-12-29 19:49:14 duckxx has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1598 2013-12-29 19:49:26 <wangchun> both 0.8.4 and 0.8.6 here reorganized
1599 2013-12-29 19:49:31 tesserajk has quit (Quit: tesserajk)
1600 2013-12-29 19:50:27 <jcorgan> 2013-12-29 19:04:43 REORGANIZE: Disconnect 1 blocks; 00000000000000010c9d451f5a48f4d733b556a240d31ac226db2637f496be0a..
1601 2013-12-29 19:50:30 <jcorgan> 2013-12-29 19:04:43 REORGANIZE: Connect 2 blocks; ..0000000000000001947cc7acbbc9a240517f9ba19c16b4f937795c6b58019fb5
1602 2013-12-29 19:50:56 <jcorgan> 0.8.6
1603 2013-12-29 19:51:39 owowo has joined
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1605 2013-12-29 19:52:34 <jcorgan> 10c9d45 is 277594 on blockexplorer.com
1606 2013-12-29 19:53:14 sacrelege has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1607 2013-12-29 19:53:14 emowataji has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1609 2013-12-29 19:53:27 <jcorgan> and 1947cc7 is 277596 on blockchain.info
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1614 2013-12-29 19:54:10 <wangchun> blockchain.info is still broken
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1616 2013-12-29 19:54:25 daybyter has joined
1617 2013-12-29 19:54:28 <wangchun> it shows my generated block with 7/9 confirms "unspendable"
1618 2013-12-29 19:54:31 <wangchun> https://blockchain.info/zh-cn/unspent?active=1KFHE7w8BhaENAswwryaoccDb6qcT6DbYY&format=html
1619 2013-12-29 19:54:36 <jcorgan> so looks like a split with two 277595s
1620 2013-12-29 19:54:50 <jcorgan> and 1974cc7 (277596) won
1621 2013-12-29 19:55:05 <wangchun> but 1974cc7 was 15 minutes late...
1622 2013-12-29 19:55:15 diki has joined
1623 2013-12-29 19:56:13 <wangchun> my server's internet connection is slow, so i set the block size limit to 32kb, still got orphan, the block was found at 2013-12-29T18:50:12Z
1624 2013-12-29 19:56:41 <jcorgan> bc.i's orphan display shows it now https://blockchain.info/orphaned-blocks
1625 2013-12-29 19:56:57 <Luke-Jr> wangchun: consider using p2pool, it helps propagate your block faster
1626 2013-12-29 19:57:13 <Luke-Jr> on the other hand, you may take a hit if you have high latency too
1627 2013-12-29 19:57:16 <wangchun> Luke-Jr: we have over 1phash/s, not possible for p2pool
1628 2013-12-29 19:57:22 <Luke-Jr> wangchun: why not?
1629 2013-12-29 19:57:41 <andytoshi> 1974cc7 has 126 txes, 10c9d45 had over 400
1630 2013-12-29 19:58:02 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1631 2013-12-29 19:58:10 <Luke-Jr> wangchun: failing that, you could use another pool with stratum
1632 2013-12-29 19:58:14 <jcorgan> the question remains why some clients reorg'd immediately, some took 45 minutes, and some haven't yet
1633 2013-12-29 19:58:42 <andytoshi> but the largest in 10c9d45 was like 8k, the largest in 1974cc7 was 75 or so
1634 2013-12-29 19:59:04 <andytoshi> it could be just slow processing, 1974cc7 is a massive block
1635 2013-12-29 19:59:04 <wangchun> Luke-Jr: do you think it is possible to launch a 51% attack on the p2pool network and have all others' mining power mining for me, btw?
1636 2013-12-29 19:59:17 <Luke-Jr> wangchun: almost certainly
1637 2013-12-29 19:59:33 <Luke-Jr> wangchun: you'd probably piss a lot of people off, but I would find it entertaining <.<
1638 2013-12-29 19:59:47 <wangchun> Luke-Jr: okay, then i may "mine" p2pool someday :)
1639 2013-12-29 20:00:10 <JWU42> >1 Ph/s and no infrastructure - hmm
1640 2013-12-29 20:00:29 tg0 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1641 2013-12-29 20:00:46 <Luke-Jr> wangchun: you could half your variance with no added costs, by mining Eligius ;)
1642 2013-12-29 20:01:09 <JWU42> have you no shame....
1643 2013-12-29 20:01:27 yubrew has joined
1644 2013-12-29 20:01:33 <JWU42> I wouldn't mind it since > 50% of my miners are there
1645 2013-12-29 20:03:09 <wangchun> infrastructure?
1646 2013-12-29 20:03:22 <jcorgan> andytoshi: it sounds like 277596 "broke" some subset of clients
1647 2013-12-29 20:03:43 patcon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1648 2013-12-29 20:04:45 <andytoshi> jcorgan: yeah ... i did a visual inspection of all the txouts of 1974cc7 (the winner), and every one was pay-to-scriptpubkey
1649 2013-12-29 20:05:02 <andytoshi> didn't look at 10c9d45, i don't have any tools :)
1650 2013-12-29 20:05:14 <wangchun> actually we are world's 4th largest bitcoin mining pool right now, after eligius :)
1651 2013-12-29 20:05:54 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1652 2013-12-29 20:06:14 <Luke-Jr> wangchun: what bitcoind are you using?
1653 2013-12-29 20:06:33 <comboy> is there currently some spec for any other services than NODE_NETWORK (in version structure)?
1654 2013-12-29 20:06:39 <wangchun> one gbt server running 0.8.6 and another one still at 0.8.4
1655 2013-12-29 20:06:43 <Luke-Jr> comboy: no
1656 2013-12-29 20:06:48 <comboy> Luke-Jr: thx
1657 2013-12-29 20:06:51 <Luke-Jr> comboy: well, maybe
1658 2013-12-29 20:06:59 <Luke-Jr> comboy: for bloom filters
1659 2013-12-29 20:07:00 <comboy> oh?
1660 2013-12-29 20:07:08 <Luke-Jr> wangchun: unmodified?
1661 2013-12-29 20:07:13 <Luke-Jr> wangchun: on Linux/Windows?
1662 2013-12-29 20:07:20 <Luke-Jr> comboy: not live (yet?) though
1663 2013-12-29 20:07:32 <wangchun> Luke-Jr: modified, but the modification is trival i suppose
1664 2013-12-29 20:07:44 <wangchun> Linux
1665 2013-12-29 20:08:38 <wangchun> i also listen to eligius, btcguild and other pools' stratum connection for new blocks, not just gbt
1666 2013-12-29 20:09:02 <comboy> Luke-Jr: BIP 37?
1667 2013-12-29 20:09:19 <wizkid057> 1 Ph solo miner?
1668 2013-12-29 20:09:44 <wangchun> only 10% solo, others being a pool
1669 2013-12-29 20:09:50 nethershaw has joined
1670 2013-12-29 20:09:50 <comboy> I guess so, anyway thanks
1671 2013-12-29 20:10:15 tholenst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1672 2013-12-29 20:10:54 <wangchun> if you read organofcorti's weekly report, we are "Discus Fish" (pool) and "For Pierce and Paul" (solo)
1673 2013-12-29 20:11:52 <jcorgan> blockexplorer.com still hasn't reorg'd, so i wonder if something about 277596 killed their bitcoind (or whatever they're using)
1674 2013-12-29 20:12:10 racooniac has joined
1675 2013-12-29 20:13:27 <thermoman> jcorgan: it's my findings so far
1676 2013-12-29 20:14:54 <jcorgan> haven't seen anyone else report issues, so looks like the impact of whatever was small
1677 2013-12-29 20:15:21 <BlueMatt> wangchun: whats your peering situation like? relay network connection? peers with other miners direct? dumb lots-of-peers approach?
1678 2013-12-29 20:16:45 <wangchun> BlueMatt: bitcoind at its default settings, we have some new block listeners and broadcasters written in python
1679 2013-12-29 20:17:19 <BlueMatt> so...no significant effort to get good peers?
1680 2013-12-29 20:17:54 Guest32265 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 26.0/20131205075310])
1681 2013-12-29 20:18:20 <wangchun> BlueMatt: have no idea. our servers are in china, the international connectivity is quite pool
1682 2013-12-29 20:18:23 <wangchun> poor
1683 2013-12-29 20:18:35 <thermoman> blockchain is fixed
1684 2013-12-29 20:18:39 <wangchun> BlueMatt: that's why i limit the block size to only 32kb
1685 2013-12-29 20:18:45 * BlueMatt facepalm
1686 2013-12-29 20:18:52 <BlueMatt> god...
1687 2013-12-29 20:18:52 <warren> Uh... thanks for the anonymous donation.
1688 2013-12-29 20:20:00 <jcorgan> the only think i see unusual so far about 277596 is that the reorg committed almost 20k transactions, which is statistically fairly far out on the tail
1689 2013-12-29 20:20:59 tmsk has left ()
1690 2013-12-29 20:22:11 <jcorgan> bc.i reorg'd (well, unblocked itself) 45 minutes after the split, blockexplorer.com still hasn't
1691 2013-12-29 20:22:22 <BlueMatt> wangchun: first, you should join the relay network as that helps some with peers with high latency, also I'm eventually gonna fix it so that blocks are broadcast tx-less
1692 2013-12-29 20:22:51 <BlueMatt> wangchun: second, you should look at the ping times to the au relay node and tell me if you can find a better ping-time location
1693 2013-12-29 20:24:20 tonokip has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1694 2013-12-29 20:24:33 <wangchun> BlueMatt: we already implemented tx-less broadcast btw
1695 2013-12-29 20:24:54 <BlueMatt> to your nodes in china or to nodes with better peering?
1696 2013-12-29 20:25:07 tonokip has joined
1697 2013-12-29 20:25:13 <wangchun> from china to linode broadcast server in japan and the u.s.
1698 2013-12-29 20:25:19 <BlueMatt> ahh, ok
1699 2013-12-29 20:25:27 <wangchun> by only send part of the txid, instead of the tx itself
1700 2013-12-29 20:26:29 <wangchun> by limit the block size to 32kb, we can have everything in just one udp packet
1701 2013-12-29 20:27:55 Tyklol is now known as Tykling
1702 2013-12-29 20:28:31 <BlueMatt> yea, well in this case it just looks like the other miner announced really late
1703 2013-12-29 20:29:04 <wangchun> "another miner" being eligius afaik
1704 2013-12-29 20:29:24 <BlueMatt> eligius found the next block?
1705 2013-12-29 20:29:41 <Luke-Jr> I wish the coin control window let me filter txouts in addition to sorting them <.<
1706 2013-12-29 20:29:56 patcon has joined
1707 2013-12-29 20:30:46 <BlueMatt> no, Luke-Jr didnt find 277596?
1708 2013-12-29 20:30:56 <BlueMatt> or, I suppose, the other 277595
1709 2013-12-29 20:31:01 <justanotheruser> BlueMatt: eligus did...
1710 2013-12-29 20:31:24 <wizkid057> Eligius found 277,595 and 277,596
1711 2013-12-29 20:31:37 <BlueMatt> hmm, so luke is doing the mining withholding attack now?
1712 2013-12-29 20:31:48 <BlueMatt> or is his pool broken?
1713 2013-12-29 20:32:02 <wangchun> That's why we got orphaned
1714 2013-12-29 20:32:02 <wizkid057> BlueMatt: I've been managing Eligius... whats broken?
1715 2013-12-29 20:32:06 <wangchun> they found two in a row
1716 2013-12-29 20:32:11 <wangchun> ignored our 277595
1717 2013-12-29 20:32:37 rm__ has joined
1718 2013-12-29 20:33:52 <BlueMatt> wizkid057: either 277595 was found and never relayed until 277596
1719 2013-12-29 20:34:06 <BlueMatt> or it failed to get the other 277595 from the network
1720 2013-12-29 20:34:06 JyZyXEL has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1721 2013-12-29 20:34:08 <BlueMatt> (ie shitty peers)
1722 2013-12-29 20:35:10 <wizkid057> BlueMatt: Eligius is peered with most of the major pools, bc.i, a super-node I run, and several other vanilla bitcoinds around the world that I maintain.  eloipool is also setup to submit the blocks via RPC to several additional remote locations for relaying
1723 2013-12-29 20:35:37 <wizkid057> 2013-12-29 18:50:40 SetBestChain: new best=0000000000000000bb0ed09b373ba2076173e84725c51d3ddd4018342f22b05b  height=277595  log2_work=75.248595  tx=30097928  date=2013-12-29 18:50:06 progress=0.999998
1724 2013-12-29 20:35:52 <wizkid057> 2013-12-29 19:02:42 SetBestChain: new best=0000000000000001947cc7acbbc9a240517f9ba19c16b4f937795c6b58019fb5  height=277596  log2_work=75.248758  tx=30098053  date=2013-12-29 19:01:52 progress=0.999997
1725 2013-12-29 20:36:04 rm_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1726 2013-12-29 20:36:18 <BlueMatt> why did I not get bb0e for like 10 minutes...
1727 2013-12-29 20:36:23 <wizkid057> no idea
1728 2013-12-29 20:37:01 <wizkid057> I have some nodes not directly peered with eligius
1729 2013-12-29 20:37:10 <wizkid057> they seem to have received it at about the right time
1730 2013-12-29 20:37:25 <Luke-Jr> looks like a race to me
1731 2013-12-29 20:37:46 <BlueMatt> yea, i just dont see receiving the bb0 block for some reason
1732 2013-12-29 20:38:12 <wizkid057> BlueMatt: you probably just received wangchun's first, then your peers didnt relay ours?
1733 2013-12-29 20:38:17 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1734 2013-12-29 20:38:35 <wizkid057> normal race that we got lucky and won by confirming our own block
1735 2013-12-29 20:39:18 <Luke-Jr> bc.i at least seems to have got Eligius's block before the other
1736 2013-12-29 20:39:51 <wizkid057> Luke-Jr: we peer direct with them
1737 2013-12-29 20:39:57 <wangchun> wizkid057: the worst thing today was, we orphaned our own block :(
1738 2013-12-29 20:40:12 <wizkid057> wangchun: sounds like bad internal setup then
1739 2013-12-29 20:40:25 <wangchun> wizkid057: the second block found only a couple of seconds after the first
1740 2013-12-29 20:40:32 spinza has joined
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1742 2013-12-29 20:41:11 <wizkid057> I run multiple servers for Eligius, but they all announce blocks to each other over a LAN.... so, would have to literally be found at the exact same time to mess things up like that on Eligius
1743 2013-12-29 20:41:11 <wangchun> wizkid057: got two blocks at the same height due to the stratum delay
1744 2013-12-29 20:41:12 <BlueMatt> yea, so just a simple fork then
1745 2013-12-29 20:41:33 <BlueMatt> that said, wangchun you really, really need to be not limiting your blocks to 64k...
1746 2013-12-29 20:41:44 <BlueMatt> you can relay in 2 udp packets with no difference in time instead of 1...
1747 2013-12-29 20:41:52 <BlueMatt> or like 10 over a tcp connection with still no difference
1748 2013-12-29 20:42:07 <wizkid057> is Eligius the only pool that has no cap on block size? (1M)
1749 2013-12-29 20:42:17 <BlueMatt> probably, but it shouldnt be
1750 2013-12-29 20:42:26 <BlueMatt> really, all these pools that limit to tiny values are just scared for no reason
1751 2013-12-29 20:42:36 <BlueMatt> just fix your peering setup and unlimit your blocks, really
1752 2013-12-29 20:42:48 <Luke-Jr> not quite "no reason"
1753 2013-12-29 20:42:58 <wizkid057> they can do what they want... let Eligius get the extra fees :P
1754 2013-12-29 20:43:05 <Luke-Jr> block relaying still sucks unless you peer only with other big miners
1755 2013-12-29 20:43:23 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: or peer with other big miners in addition to the rest of the network...
1756 2013-12-29 20:43:25 <Luke-Jr> and 1 MB block size is only a good thing if you have decent spam filter
1757 2013-12-29 20:43:28 <Luke-Jr> s in place
1758 2013-12-29 20:43:31 <wizkid057> we just mined a 899252 byte block
1759 2013-12-29 20:43:31 <Luke-Jr> which *most* miners neglect
1760 2013-12-29 20:43:45 <BlueMatt> but, yea, just make sure you have good peer connections
1761 2013-12-29 20:43:53 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: if you have peers on the rest of the network, it can block relaying to your big peers :/
1762 2013-12-29 20:44:10 <wizkid057> then a 586719 byte block on top of it
1763 2013-12-29 20:44:15 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: thats part of a good peering setup, separate your bit-pool peers and your rest-of-network peers so they can run in parallel
1764 2013-12-29 20:44:20 <wizkid057> 277606+277607
1765 2013-12-29 20:44:27 <BlueMatt> and the rest-of-network link can be saturated while letting the big-pool peers run free
1766 2013-12-29 20:44:37 <Luke-Jr> if neglegent pools like BTCGuild mine 1 MB blocks, they'll be just 900 kB of spam :/
1767 2013-12-29 20:45:07 <wizkid057> I peer the main pool daemon with a select group of peers, and additional nodes with the rest of the world
1768 2013-12-29 20:45:28 <BlueMatt> as it should be done, really
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1773 2013-12-29 20:48:47 <BlueMatt> wangchun: why do you limit blocks to 32k?
1774 2013-12-29 20:48:59 ericmuyser has joined
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1781 2013-12-29 20:51:18 <wangchun> BlueMatt: our international connectivity is slow
1782 2013-12-29 20:51:21 <wangchun> BlueMatt: quite slow
1783 2013-12-29 20:51:38 <BlueMatt> wangchun: but you just said you dont realy txn and just relay tx list and block header
1784 2013-12-29 20:51:47 <BlueMatt> so 1 packet vs 10 packets makes no difference in latency there
1785 2013-12-29 20:51:50 <wangchun> BlueMatt: I would prefer lose some txfee, in exchange for a lower orphan rate
1786 2013-12-29 20:51:52 <BlueMatt> even if you're on a 24kb link...
1787 2013-12-29 20:52:05 <BlueMatt> you dont get a lower orphan rate if you relay properly...
1788 2013-12-29 20:52:11 <BlueMatt> and its not just you getting a lower txfee
1789 2013-12-29 20:52:22 <BlueMatt> its you hurting the network's performance, ie hurting bitcoin.....
1790 2013-12-29 20:52:30 <wangchun> BlueMatt: I'll look into this issue when i have time, i think this limit is just a temporary solution
1791 2013-12-29 20:52:51 wonhunawks has joined
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1793 2013-12-29 20:53:16 <jcorgan> is it common to receive TXs that have their inputs already spent?  i'm combing my logs around the time of the split and seeing hundreds of these arriving from one particular connection
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1798 2013-12-29 20:54:42 <Luke-Jr> wangchun: if your connectivity sucks, you shouldn't be running a pool.
1799 2013-12-29 20:54:56 racooniac has joined
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1803 2013-12-29 20:55:20 <wangchun> Luke-Jr: Our miners all located in china, we have to locate our servers in china too
1804 2013-12-29 20:55:37 yubrew has joined
1805 2013-12-29 20:55:40 <Luke-Jr> wangchun: that doesn't follow. Count shares in China and make blocks somewhere with bandwidth..
1806 2013-12-29 20:55:57 <wangchun> Luke-Jr: All Chinese hosting providers suck in this way
1807 2013-12-29 20:56:09 <Luke-Jr> wangchun: okay, so make the blocks in the US or Europe or something
1808 2013-12-29 20:56:21 <Luke-Jr> wangchun: as long as the sharecounting is done in China, your miners should be fine
1809 2013-12-29 20:56:24 <owowo> how long does it usually take for armory to do it's "things" at first startup? I got bitcoind running, started by armory with bitcoin.conf armory rpc
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1816 2013-12-29 21:02:49 <andytoshi> jcorgan: my node sees a steady stream of 5-10 per hour, no spikes like that
1817 2013-12-29 21:02:56 <andytoshi> for the last several days
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1824 2013-12-29 21:05:48 <jcorgan> yeah, i got one particular onion connection, then a rash of double-spend TXes received from it, it went on for 2-3 minutes.  I wouldn't have noticed except for digging through the logs around this recent split
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1830 2013-12-29 21:06:39 <lianj> http://streaming.media.ccc.de/saal1/native/hq/ bitcoin trezor talk starting now
1831 2013-12-29 21:07:48 <thermoman> rtmp://rtmp-hd.streaming.media.ccc.de:1935/stream/saal1_native_hd
1832 2013-12-29 21:07:53 <thermoman> hehe
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1835 2013-12-29 21:09:12 <Luke-Jr> bah, seeking forward doesn't work
1836 2013-12-29 21:10:05 <lianj> :P
1837 2013-12-29 21:10:52 Guyver2 has joined
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1839 2013-12-29 21:14:04 ThomasV has joined
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1841 2013-12-29 21:16:48 <Luke-Jr> "use both entropies to generate final entropy while proving that external entropy was used…"
1842 2013-12-29 21:16:51 <Luke-Jr> is that safe?
1843 2013-12-29 21:17:04 <Luke-Jr> won't any proof also allow the host to generate the same private key?
1844 2013-12-29 21:17:21 <Luke-Jr> slush should be here to answer questions :PO\
1845 2013-12-29 21:17:47 <lianj> Luke-Jr: in general around the conference any such statements are seen pretty critical, i would have the balls to say that on stage ^^
1846 2013-12-29 21:18:23 <lianj> *wouldn't
1847 2013-12-29 21:21:14 <Luke-Jr> :P
1848 2013-12-29 21:21:20 <Luke-Jr> what conference is this? yet another BC conf?
1849 2013-12-29 21:21:47 <lianj> no, 30c3
1850 2013-12-29 21:23:31 micronxd has joined
1851 2013-12-29 21:25:35 <midnightmagic> 30c3 keynote was cool except their link was crappy. someone should've told greenwald he should stop downloading porn while skyping
1852 2013-12-29 21:27:17 <lianj> midnightmagic: rewatch 28c3 keynote
1853 2013-12-29 21:27:18 paracyst has joined
1854 2013-12-29 21:28:14 mitz_ has joined
1855 2013-12-29 21:29:29 FabianB has joined
1856 2013-12-29 21:30:43 <midnightmagic> lianj: Is that the link that appelbaum keeps pointing out between bluecoat et al and dictators who murder their own people?
1857 2013-12-29 21:30:46 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1858 2013-12-29 21:31:23 lysobit has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1859 2013-12-29 21:32:18 <lianj> midnightmagic: no, oh maybe it wasn't the keynote then:) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg
1860 2013-12-29 21:32:45 <HM2> sipa: namedrop at 30c3
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1862 2013-12-29 21:34:46 <midnightmagic> lianj: I'm not too concerned about that. metalicarap and private fabrication basically moots that
1863 2013-12-29 21:37:09 <lianj> midnightmagic: it was just a very well presented talk :) one i like to rewatch from time to time
1864 2013-12-29 21:37:23 <jcorgan> arg in chrome i can watch videos when embedded but not when the same video is in youtube :(
1865 2013-12-29 21:37:31 <lianj> ok now julian assange talk
1866 2013-12-29 21:37:31 lysobit has joined
1867 2013-12-29 21:38:00 <lianj> jcorgan: https://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/wiki/Streams lots of formats
1868 2013-12-29 21:38:16 <lianj> oh nevermind.. you were talking about other stuff
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1870 2013-12-29 21:41:49 <phantomcircuit> jcorgan, it's very common to get txs with spent inputs
1871 2013-12-29 21:42:43 lysobit has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1872 2013-12-29 21:42:58 <jcorgan> why is that
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1896 2013-12-29 22:26:18 <niston> can someone help me with stuck transactions?
1897 2013-12-29 22:26:40 <niston> I tried getrawtransaction <TXID in question> but my client says it doesn't have info about the transactions -.-
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1901 2013-12-29 22:28:36 <justanotheruser> niston: is your blockchain up to date, does the transaction ID actually exist?
1902 2013-12-29 22:29:38 <niston> it's at block 277623, so I think yes its up to date.
1903 2013-12-29 22:29:49 <niston> Dunno, I can't find those TXIDs anywhere.
1904 2013-12-29 22:30:00 nsh is now known as nshbit
1905 2013-12-29 22:30:03 <niston> anywhere but in my transactions window, that is.
1906 2013-12-29 22:30:29 <justanotheruser> does the TXID exist on blockchain.info?
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1908 2013-12-29 22:30:33 <niston> nope.
1909 2013-12-29 22:30:43 <niston> not for any of those transactions.
1910 2013-12-29 22:31:07 <justanotheruser> Did you make the transaction?
1911 2013-12-29 22:31:23 <niston> Through BitcoinQT, yes.
1912 2013-12-29 22:31:28 <justanotheruser> And broadcasted it?
1913 2013-12-29 22:31:32 <niston> Like, click send, enter stuff, etc.
1914 2013-12-29 22:32:56 <niston> the first one stuck is from Dec 20th. The last dates back to Dec 26. And I'm a bit worried to send more, as it will certainly get stuck again. Tehre's now like $60 hanging in limbo, it makes me feel uneasy.
1915 2013-12-29 22:35:12 nshbit is now known as nshchawmp
1916 2013-12-29 22:35:14 <airbreather> niston: do you feel comfortable disclosing some information about the transactions in question, like what bitcoin addresses might have been used to send the coins, and where the coins should have been going?
1917 2013-12-29 22:36:03 <niston> sure.
1918 2013-12-29 22:37:17 <niston> how could I get the originating (my own) address ?
1919 2013-12-29 22:38:08 <airbreather> it's possible that it's one of your "to" addresses, though it's not guaranteed -- not a big deal if you don't have that information
1920 2013-12-29 22:38:23 <airbreather> Just need something to go on so we can track down your missing funds :-)
1921 2013-12-29 22:38:26 <niston> well I have the addresses I sent it to.
1922 2013-12-29 22:39:32 <niston> 1deguraJ7VUaZf5WhxHnDWtLJ55PwS5FK and 1DmQK4p7MGPiMp7hVjjst5Rts2NFjfQMM5
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1926 2013-12-29 22:41:50 <airbreather> niston: hmm, I see some unconfirmed transactions to those addresses that have very low fees (100 satoshis)
1927 2013-12-29 22:42:33 <niston> yeah had that problem before.
1928 2013-12-29 22:43:00 <niston> gmaxwell would tell me to use getrawtransaction and some other stuff, to fix it. but getrawtransaction would not work with those three TXs.
1929 2013-12-29 22:43:22 <niston> also, I he said it should not be possible for bitcoinQT to author TXs with fees so low?
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1935 2013-12-29 22:44:17 <airbreather> I don't think the newer versions of the client will, no... not sure how you got into that situation.
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1937 2013-12-29 22:44:38 <airbreather> sec...
1938 2013-12-29 22:45:02 <niston> interstingly, the last stuck transaction has a fee of 0.0001 BTC unlike the other two.
1939 2013-12-29 22:46:53 <airbreather> The one to 1degura has an output of 2100 satoshis... I think by default, because of https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2577, that will be treated as nonstandard
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1942 2013-12-29 22:47:43 <niston> hmm
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1944 2013-12-29 22:48:46 <airbreather> and the one to 1DmQK4p doesn't trip that rule, but the fee is so low that it probably looks like spam to most miners
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1948 2013-12-29 22:49:30 <niston> theres two to 1DmQK4p though. I bet the first one also trips the rule, as transaction details report the fee as being 0.000001 BTC
1949 2013-12-29 22:50:06 <niston> I wonder though Im using 0.8.5-beta how could this happen? D:
1950 2013-12-29 22:50:34 <airbreather> *shrugs* dunno, sorry
1951 2013-12-29 22:50:48 <niston> anyways. any possibility to "unstick" those TX?
1952 2013-12-29 22:50:51 <airbreather> it's possible that you've tweaked some settings values at some point...
1953 2013-12-29 22:52:10 <airbreather> If I were in that situation, I would craft replacement raw transactions by hand and broadcast them... not sure I'm comfortable walking someone else through that
1954 2013-12-29 22:52:22 <niston> thats what gmaxwell did :D
1955 2013-12-29 22:52:54 <niston> but hthe first step was to getrawtransaction <TXID>. which worked for one transaction. the other tree, bitcoinQT gives error code -5 and says no information available.
1956 2013-12-29 22:53:07 <thermoman> so what did cause the problem with 0.7 clients 3 hours ago?
1957 2013-12-29 22:53:57 <niston> also, we would not broadcast the raw TX but submit it to eligius via some URL :)
1958 2013-12-29 22:55:15 <niston> http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php
1959 2013-12-29 22:55:45 <niston> it got mined thereafter within a few minutes.
1960 2013-12-29 22:56:20 <airbreather> Yeah that's probably just an API to broadcast the transaction
1961 2013-12-29 22:56:49 <airbreather> in any case, you can start with "listunspent" and go from there to build up the transaction
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1963 2013-12-29 22:58:05 <niston> hmm, the output gives two TXIDs with 93 and 474 confirmations.
1964 2013-12-29 22:58:13 ThomasV has joined
1965 2013-12-29 22:58:51 <niston> none of them matches the three stuck transactions however.
1966 2013-12-29 22:59:41 <airbreather> yeah, sorry, that may not be what you're looking for.  all three transactions show up on your "Transactions" tab?
1967 2013-12-29 22:59:48 <niston> yes.
1968 2013-12-29 23:02:36 <airbreather> I'm a bit new to some of these APIs... what do "listlockunspent" and "listtransactions" return?
1969 2013-12-29 23:02:43 <airbreather> API --> RPC calls
1970 2013-12-29 23:02:59 <niston> listlockunspent returns nothing.
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1973 2013-12-29 23:03:36 <niston> listtransactions returns a list of transactions I've done. those in question are there! :D
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1976 2013-12-29 23:04:06 <airbreather> ahh -- cool, so can you take it from here?
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1980 2013-12-29 23:04:37 <niston> dunno. All I know is to use getrawtransaction. but that doesn't work with those TXIDs.
1981 2013-12-29 23:04:50 <niston> "No information available about transaction (code -5)"
1982 2013-12-29 23:05:20 ralphtheninja has joined
1983 2013-12-29 23:05:22 <niston> perhaps I need to reindex or something?
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1985 2013-12-29 23:05:58 <airbreather> well if Blockchain.info doesn't see them in any blocks, then that probably won't help
1986 2013-12-29 23:06:12 <niston> weird.
1987 2013-12-29 23:07:19 <airbreather> hmm.  so when you've had this problem before, what were the steps you took to submit the replacement transaction?
1988 2013-12-29 23:08:12 <niston> getrawtransaction -> give output to gmaxwell -> recevie a hex from him on which I did decoderawtransaction and verified the TO address, then signrawtransaction and give the hex to gmaxwell again, and he submit it to eligius via that page.
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1991 2013-12-29 23:09:39 <niston> so I tried to do that myself, but as said, I fail at the getrawtransaction step because code -5.
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1994 2013-12-29 23:10:59 <airbreather> Hmm... OK, so two of the transactions you're having problems with show up on blockchain.info, and one does not?
1995 2013-12-29 23:11:13 <niston> I cant find any of them by TXID.
1996 2013-12-29 23:11:47 <niston> hmm
1997 2013-12-29 23:12:52 <airbreather> so in addition to the transactions that I see on blockchain.info to those two addresses, you have three more stuck transactions that also do not show up by TXID on your client?
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2000 2013-12-29 23:13:09 <niston> nope, hold...
2001 2013-12-29 23:13:17 <greyox> hello, please when I am on testnet, can I quickly mine some BTC?
2002 2013-12-29 23:13:30 <niston> c7cbeb45ca84aa367ef746d17aa666ba4c1cbfd12a151bd8a95474d159f8de92 this one cant find on bc.i
2003 2013-12-29 23:13:33 <maaku> greyox: sure? no need to ask permission
2004 2013-12-29 23:13:52 <niston> 89c33e7d34a14bbf03a34d12036d474c80e607cc00c2072befd99f3652974e08 this one is listed as unconfirmed.
2005 2013-12-29 23:13:56 <maaku> greyox: just don't be a dick and leave an asic on testnet or anything
2006 2013-12-29 23:14:07 <niston> so is this one ea6b2ec7079ba4ca22131b2b7385cc2e99a9e7fa0bbf9d42783af310b6f3a416
2007 2013-12-29 23:14:15 <greyox> how long should it take?
2008 2013-12-29 23:14:20 <greyox> with just a cpu
2009 2013-12-29 23:14:30 <niston> so two can be seen, one cannot-.
2010 2013-12-29 23:14:52 <maaku> greyox: no idea, totally depends on circumstances. testnet periodically resets to difficulty 1 if no one is mining
2011 2013-12-29 23:15:06 <airbreather> OK, niston, sec... I can help with those two at least.
2012 2013-12-29 23:15:11 <maaku> (which is why I said don't leave a miner on if you don't need it)
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2025 2013-12-29 23:24:17 <greyox> When I am using testnet, should I compile the bitcoinQT with some other flags? Because I am getting exceptions one after another
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2028 2013-12-29 23:27:11 <airbreather> niston: PM'ed a hex string... verify with decode
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2033 2013-12-29 23:31:47 <greyox> Please are you able to work with testnet?
2034 2013-12-29 23:31:58 <gmaxwell> niston: did you override the relaytxfee by any chance?
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2037 2013-12-29 23:34:06 <greyox> There are unhandled exceptions in bitcoinQT, which are not handled, and are thrown when using testnet.
2038 2013-12-29 23:34:35 <goodbtc> somebody from this channel should be able to remove this thing: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoinclientqt/
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2042 2013-12-29 23:38:07 <niston> gmaxwell not that I knew of ?
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2050 2013-12-29 23:42:59 <airbreather> niston: for the third transaction, the one that doesn't show up on blockchain.info, how much were you trying to send, to what address, and what was the fee?
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2052 2013-12-29 23:44:01 <niston> 0.0226BTC to 1DmQK4p7MGPiMp7hVjjst5Rts2NFjfQMM5, fee was 0.0001 BTC
2053 2013-12-29 23:44:48 <niston> (from transaction details in my client)
2054 2013-12-29 23:45:43 <niston> IIRC, the transaction first showed as "offline" in the transactions window.
2055 2013-12-29 23:45:50 <niston> it had a weird icon.
2056 2013-12-29 23:45:57 <niston> that's why I remember.
2057 2013-12-29 23:47:18 <niston> also another thing to note is that the amount is consistently not shown in red but black, whenever I open "transactions".
2058 2013-12-29 23:47:39 <niston> when I click on it and then move the selection away from it, it becomes red though.
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2064 2013-12-29 23:52:14 <airbreather> hmm... I wonder if there's a way to just force the client to forget about a transaction?
2065 2013-12-29 23:54:33 <airbreather> maybe that is in fact something that reindexing would help?
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2067 2013-12-29 23:56:38 <gmaxwell> airbreather: eerk. no don't reindex.
2068 2013-12-29 23:56:53 <gmaxwell> salvagewallet will do that, but be sure to backup first and check the balance after.
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2070 2013-12-29 23:57:15 <gmaxwell> niston: in any case, where is this stuck transaction, you can fix it without salvagewallet.
2071 2013-12-29 23:57:24 <airbreather> there's the thing I was looking for
2072 2013-12-29 23:57:59 <niston> yeah?
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2074 2013-12-29 23:58:49 <niston> its in my transactions window :)
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