1 2013-12-30 00:01:53 <niston> TXID is c7cbeb45ca84aa367ef746d17aa666ba4c1cbfd12a151bd8a95474d159f8de92
2 2013-12-30 00:03:01 <niston> apparently its not in the blockchain anywhere though.
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7 2013-12-30 00:09:08 <maaku> greyox: did you get your problem sorted out?
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14 2013-12-30 00:12:52 <maaku> goodbtc: what is that sf site?
15 2013-12-30 00:13:43 <niston> brb
16 2013-12-30 00:14:33 <greyox> please does someone uses VS2012 here?
17 2013-12-30 00:14:58 <maaku> greyox: bitcoin doesn't compile under msvc
18 2013-12-30 00:15:50 <greyox> I already compiled it...but the debugger is throwing exception dialog even when the code is inside a try block....
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24 2013-12-30 00:19:47 <greyox> evalscript throwns exception, but it doesn go to catch (...) ...
25 2013-12-30 00:20:36 <Luke-Jr> we warned you that MSVC is broken..
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27 2013-12-30 00:22:19 <greyox> but is there some other good debugger then?
28 2013-12-30 00:22:39 <maaku> greyox: gdb
29 2013-12-30 00:22:55 <edcba> which kind of exception greyox ?
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35 2013-12-30 00:24:47 <maaku> greyox: if you can get MSVC to work, great
36 2013-12-30 00:24:49 <greyox> Unhandled exception at 0x0135E793 in BitcoinQt.exe: An invalid parameter was passed to a function that considers invalid parameters fatal. -- but this is something just in VS2012 settings...
37 2013-12-30 00:24:52 <maaku> you are in uncharted territory though
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78 2013-12-30 00:41:51 <sipa> BlueMatt: that was just the march 11 fork again, for people who did not upgrade
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83 2013-12-30 00:46:46 <jcorgan> did anyone figure our what happened with the 277595 split?
84 2013-12-30 00:47:06 <sipa> my guess just the march 11 fork again?
85 2013-12-30 00:47:24 <sipa> if you didn't upgrade to 0.8 or increase your lock count
86 2013-12-30 00:47:42 <niston> yeah someone reported running out of locks
87 2013-12-30 00:48:00 <jcorgan> seems more involved than that
88 2013-12-30 00:48:03 <sipa> why?
89 2013-12-30 00:48:27 <sipa> was anyone on 0.8 affected?
90 2013-12-30 00:48:58 <jcorgan> bc.i was "stuck" at 277595, then 45 mins later reorg'd with a new 277595-277603
91 2013-12-30 00:49:20 <sipa> seems to me they are running 0.7, and figured it out after being stuck for a while
92 2013-12-30 00:49:30 <jcorgan> its possible that was manual intervention
93 2013-12-30 00:49:55 <jcorgan> and blockexplorer.com is still stuck
94 2013-12-30 00:50:04 <sipa> doesn't surprise me
95 2013-12-30 00:50:10 <sipa> iirc it's running an ancient bitcoind
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97 2013-12-30 00:50:56 <jcorgan> then the 277596 that got mined was ~900k in size
98 2013-12-30 00:51:21 <jcorgan> and caused about 20k of changed transactions to be committed
99 2013-12-30 00:51:23 <andytoshi> and it had half a dozen tx's which were over 64kb by themselves
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101 2013-12-30 00:51:54 <sipa> transactions with many inputs have a larger impact
102 2013-12-30 00:52:02 <jcorgan> so maybe 277596 was the "killer block"
103 2013-12-30 00:52:08 <sipa> yes, seems obvious
104 2013-12-30 00:52:28 <sipa> but unless anyone on 0.8 complains about it, i consider it a known but fixed bug
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106 2013-12-30 00:52:49 <gmaxwell> wow, pretty wild to see people getting hit by that.
107 2013-12-30 00:52:58 <jcorgan> but do we really know that it was a resource issue?
108 2013-12-30 00:53:32 <gmaxwell> 16:43 < niston> yeah someone reported running out of locks
109 2013-12-30 00:53:39 <sipa> either saying "a 900 kb block" or "bdb running out of locks" or "old bitcoind getting stuck" would lead me to conclude this
110 2013-12-30 00:53:39 <gmaxwell> is pretty much the red flag.
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112 2013-12-30 00:53:59 <sipa> all of them together is everything as expected
113 2013-12-30 00:54:03 <jcorgan> oh, didn't see the out of locks report
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116 2013-12-30 00:55:03 <niston> [20:30:09] <thermoman> Lock table is out of available object entries
117 2013-12-30 00:55:07 <jcorgan> ok then, if you guys are happy i'm happy :)
118 2013-12-30 00:55:31 <sipa> so b.i is still running 0.7? :o
119 2013-12-30 00:56:19 <niston> bbiab im gonna fix the rear window of my car :D
120 2013-12-30 00:56:48 <gmaxwell> sipa: makes sense, they've problably patched the everlasting crap out of it to extract the data they need.
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122 2013-12-30 00:57:00 <gmaxwell> If so, upgrading to 0.8+ would be an enormous undertaking.
123 2013-12-30 00:57:16 <gmaxwell> Thats what kept block explorer and deepbit on 0.3.24 for such a long time.
124 2013-12-30 00:57:37 <gmaxwell> I belive deepbit is _still_ on 0.3.24 plus patches, though they're irrelevant now at least.
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126 2013-12-30 00:58:05 <sipa> iirc they upgraded for bip30
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128 2013-12-30 00:58:10 <gmaxwell> it's going to be even more awesome in the future with people running abandoned alternative implementations...
129 2013-12-30 00:58:14 <sipa> but i'm unsure and i don't care :)
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135 2013-12-30 01:01:08 <jcorgan> unrelated, but when i was scouring my logs around that event, i came across a several hundred long series of "inputs already spent" receive TXs from a single node. Someone said that's common. What causes that?
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137 2013-12-30 01:01:26 <sipa> attempted double spends
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140 2013-12-30 01:02:25 <jcorgan> so that node itself was the one attempting the double spends, as a normal node wouldn't relay those, correct?
141 2013-12-30 01:02:52 <sipa> if that node didn't see the first spend, it will relay it
142 2013-12-30 01:03:27 <jcorgan> sure, i can see that, but several hundred?
143 2013-12-30 01:03:42 <sipa> it may just have started up
144 2013-12-30 01:03:55 <jcorgan> well, it's academic anyway, i would never have noticed otherwise
145 2013-12-30 01:04:43 <sipa> if a node just starts up and then gets fed a series on transactions which are all double-spends, it'd relay it
146 2013-12-30 01:05:00 <jcorgan> got it
147 2013-12-30 01:05:29 <jcorgan> #bitcoin could use a moderator right now
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199 2013-12-30 01:53:42 <jcorgan> would it be useful to anyone else to have bitcoin* examine BITCOIN_DATADIR and/or BITCOIN_CONF environment variables?
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210 2013-12-30 02:04:07 <ProfMac> Testing my registration.
211 2013-12-30 02:04:33 <kuzetsa> ProfMac: your what?
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213 2013-12-30 02:07:02 <ProfMac> You have to register before you can post. Apparantly I did it successfully.
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224 2013-12-30 02:12:57 <maaku> jcorgan: it would be useful to have bitcoin* examine BITCOIN_* environment variables for configuration settings
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226 2013-12-30 02:14:18 <sipa> agree, feel free to file a bug (or send a patch) :)
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234 2013-12-30 02:17:57 <jcorgan> ok, i was just implementing BITCOIN_CONF and BITCOIN_DATADIR, but open to other suggestions. There is no way to search for BITCOIN_* so each one would have to be manually tested.
235 2013-12-30 02:20:08 <sipa> you can surely iterate the environ variable?
236 2013-12-30 02:20:11 <jcorgan> also, i have no idea how/if getenv works on windows :)
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238 2013-12-30 02:20:24 <sipa> but i would prefer not doing it
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240 2013-12-30 02:20:56 <jcorgan> the argc/argv parsing already comes as a list that just populates mapArgs, etc.
241 2013-12-30 02:21:15 <sipa> environ is very much the same
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244 2013-12-30 02:21:43 <sipa> except it's a global variable and not an argument to main
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246 2013-12-30 02:21:56 <jcorgan> i could see then how to iterate over environ and extract BITCOIN_FOO=BAR and stuff it into mapArgs['FOO']='BAR'
247 2013-12-30 02:22:18 <sipa> yeah
248 2013-12-30 02:22:24 <sipa> but i don't think that would be wise
249 2013-12-30 02:22:38 <sipa> there may be unexpected behaviour with security consequences
250 2013-12-30 02:23:53 <jcorgan> so then we're back to manually getenv() known names to see if they are in use
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253 2013-12-30 02:26:13 <jcorgan> i'd just like to not have to manually specify -conf=foo all the time on the command line when it is in a non-standard place
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256 2013-12-30 02:28:46 <maaku> I would do the loop over environ mapping BITCOIN_FOO=bar into mapArgs['foo']='bar', but check 'foo' against a whitelist first
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261 2013-12-30 02:29:47 <jcorgan> that sounds reasonable
262 2013-12-30 02:30:28 <jcorgan> the cli args aren't check against such a whitelist now, though
263 2013-12-30 02:31:38 <jcorgan> also, the plan is to check the environment, then parse the cli, so that cli overrides environment if desired
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266 2013-12-30 02:33:19 <jcorgan> also, is using environ this way portable?
267 2013-12-30 02:33:21 <maaku> jcorgan: yes, you'd want the cli to override for sure
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269 2013-12-30 02:33:56 <maaku> jcorgan: you mena the 3rd argument to main() right?
270 2013-12-30 02:33:59 <maaku> yes that's portable
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272 2013-12-30 02:35:21 <maaku> using getenv is even more portable
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276 2013-12-30 02:37:10 <jcorgan> i'd have to check the standard, but ISTR using 'extern char **environ' was preferred over main(..., ..., char *envp[])
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501 2013-12-30 08:06:27 <jcorgan> pull request #3476 has the environment parsing for config we discussed earlier
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520 2013-12-30 08:26:10 <melvster> trezor talk at ccc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgaBKNus1n0
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522 2013-12-30 08:26:48 <nessence> how closer is the main client to supporting a thin-client version?
523 2013-12-30 08:26:58 <nessence> close*
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544 2013-12-30 08:35:57 <maaku> jcorgan: thanks, looks good (modulo Iaan's comments already)
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865 2013-12-30 14:06:15 <nessence> has anyone compiled bitcoin w/clang?
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869 2013-12-30 14:12:31 <sipa> yes. though not me
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890 2013-12-30 14:50:39 <kjj> what's the normal way to convert a vch to a hex string?
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892 2013-12-30 14:51:35 <andytoshi> nessence: i have
893 2013-12-30 14:52:12 <andytoshi> nessence: i tried a week ago, hadn't for like a year before that -- it locked up on startup
894 2013-12-30 14:52:15 <andytoshi> i didn't investigate
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896 2013-12-30 14:52:36 <nessence> andytoshi: w/homebrew or macports?
897 2013-12-30 14:52:43 <andytoshi> no
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899 2013-12-30 14:53:28 <nessence> lol
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902 2013-12-30 14:57:31 <andytoshi> i'll try it again, have some fun.. but i'm not on a mac, so i'd guess that we'll have a different set of problems
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904 2013-12-30 14:58:33 <deanclkclk_> folks..help me with something..I'm reading the docs about raw transaction -> listunspent [minconf=1] [maxconf=999999]
905 2013-12-30 14:58:40 <deanclkclk_> what's an unspent transaction?
906 2013-12-30 14:58:46 <deanclkclk_> I don't understand
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908 2013-12-30 14:59:26 <sipa> deanclkclk_: have you read the whitepaper>?
909 2013-12-30 14:59:27 yubrew has joined
910 2013-12-30 14:59:43 <deanclkclk_> bitcoin whitepaper? not all of it
911 2013-12-30 15:00:09 <sipa> please try to understand the basics first, before using the raw transaction API
912 2013-12-30 15:00:15 <sipa> you will shoot yourself in the foot otherwise
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914 2013-12-30 15:03:38 <nessence> andytoshi: would be different. 5 different variants of c++ and I'm guessing I have dependencies on different versions
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997 2013-12-30 16:36:33 <airbreather> so I've been chipping away at the script ops at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script, and I noticed a couple of things: 1) the documentation tends to be consistent with the in-line comments in script.cpp, and 2) there are at least 8 or so that look to me to be inconsistent with what the code would do. can someone look at, e.g., OP_TUCK and tell me if I'm missing something fundamental?
998 2013-12-30 16:37:11 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
999 2013-12-30 16:37:42 <airbreather> says that OP_TUCK on "x1 x2" should result in "x2 x1 x2", but I think that the code would make it "x1 x2 x1"
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1005 2013-12-30 16:40:45 <tholenst> x1 is on top of the stack initially -- you agree?
1006 2013-12-30 16:41:21 <airbreather> The way I'm reading it, a "pop" operation on that stack should pop "x1" off the stack and result in "x2" remaining off the stack, so yes.
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1009 2013-12-30 16:41:35 <jcorgan> maaku: not sure how to address the tab/space issue; i use emacs plain vanilla C++ mode and had to manually add spaces to get the 4 space indents
1010 2013-12-30 16:41:52 <airbreather> s/remaining off/remaining on/
1011 2013-12-30 16:42:06 <tholenst> jcorgan: use (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil) in init.el
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1013 2013-12-30 16:42:57 <Matt_von_Mises> Why would a Satoshi client (0.8.1) send a block message of only 81 bytes?
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1015 2013-12-30 16:45:03 <tholenst> airbreather: yeah i think i agree from reading the code; it should give x1 x2 x1. Though to be sure i'd probably try making a transaction on testnet.
1016 2013-12-30 16:45:25 <jcorgan> tholenst: thanks
1017 2013-12-30 16:45:30 <tholenst> maye the person documenting meant that x2 is on top?
1018 2013-12-30 16:46:14 <tholenst> you could see if something like 1 0 OP_TUCK OP_DROP OP_VERIFY works, for example
1019 2013-12-30 16:46:26 <airbreather> tholenst: Yeah, I think that may have been the issue -- if I read everything under the "Stack" header on the wiki page as being written in the opposite order, I think most of my issues go away
1020 2013-12-30 16:46:52 <airbreather> maybe all, but I haven't re-evaluated everything yet
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1030 2013-12-30 17:02:23 <melvster> wow, over 2000 repos on github now reference bitcoin ... http://blog.bitcoinpulse.com/bitcoin-big-hit-with-developers-predicting-the-future-with-github/
1031 2013-12-30 17:03:50 <melvster> by my calculations about 10 new projects a day! :)
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1034 2013-12-30 17:05:59 <drizztbsd> 10 useless money a day?
1035 2013-12-30 17:06:24 <melvster> lol
1036 2013-12-30 17:06:54 <jcorgan> Updated pull request #3476 with fixed tab/space issues
1037 2013-12-30 17:06:54 <melvster> ill have to do a search and see what new development people are working on ... hopefully something productive, not just get rich quick schemes ...
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1049 2013-12-30 17:13:37 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: sure that's not a block header?
1050 2013-12-30 17:13:42 mitz has joined
1051 2013-12-30 17:14:49 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: Apparently not. Must be some mistake my end, probably. Though it's never happened before like that.
1052 2013-12-30 17:15:46 <andytoshi> man, clang analyzer whines a lot about the boost headers <.<
1053 2013-12-30 17:16:56 nessence has joined
1054 2013-12-30 17:17:19 <Matt_von_Mises> Boost is horrible and annoying.
1055 2013-12-30 17:19:34 <andytoshi> but so far there have only been half a dozen warnings about the actual btc code, all spurious :)
1056 2013-12-30 17:20:41 <CodeShark> boost is well-designed but very difficult to read through and requires a decent amount of understanding of generic programming to use well
1057 2013-12-30 17:21:48 <CodeShark> it does produce a lot of compiler warnings, though :)
1058 2013-12-30 17:21:52 <jcorgan> when using Boost one must be careful not to put too many include statements close together or your header files will reach criticial mass Boost will become sentient
1059 2013-12-30 17:22:03 <CodeShark> haha
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1071 2013-12-30 17:43:41 <Ukyo> ProcessMessage(block, 158677) FAILED, followed by REORGANIZE. Should a simple blockchain wipe fix this?
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1073 2013-12-30 17:44:53 <maaku> Ukyo: that is absolutely normal, ignore it
1074 2013-12-30 17:45:37 <Ukyo> constantly getting: EXCEPTION: 11DbException, Db::getL Cannot allocate memory, bitcoin in PorcessMessage()
1075 2013-12-30 17:45:41 <Ukyo> The server has 16 gigs of ram
1076 2013-12-30 17:45:46 <Ukyo> and bitcoind is the only thing running
1077 2013-12-30 17:46:04 <Ukyo> with about 600 mb of ram wired
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1085 2013-12-30 17:56:11 <sipa> Ukyo: are you running 0.7.x still?
1086 2013-12-30 17:56:56 <Ukyo> on this copy yes
1087 2013-12-30 17:57:22 <sipa> then you'll either need to manually increase the number of locks, or upgrade to 0.8
1088 2013-12-30 17:57:33 <Ukyo> ah, is that what it is
1089 2013-12-30 17:57:52 <Ukyo> do you have that url with info on increasing the locks?
1090 2013-12-30 17:58:16 <Ukyo> this version has some custom built in mysql stuff
1091 2013-12-30 17:58:17 handle_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1092 2013-12-30 17:58:37 <Ukyo> and we are still working on migrating to 0.8
1093 2013-12-30 17:59:39 shesek has joined
1094 2013-12-30 17:59:41 <sipa> how did you get your node past the march 11 fork?
1095 2013-12-30 17:59:45 FabianB has joined
1096 2013-12-30 17:59:49 <sipa> it should have failed there too
1097 2013-12-30 17:59:57 <Ukyo> it was not.
1098 2013-12-30 18:00:07 <Ukyo> er did not
1099 2013-12-30 18:00:09 <Ukyo> it was fine
1100 2013-12-30 18:00:12 <sipa> http://bitcoin.org/en/alert/2013-03-15-upgrade-deadline
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1102 2013-12-30 18:00:46 <Ukyo> hm
1103 2013-12-30 18:00:47 <Ukyo> already have that
1104 2013-12-30 18:00:59 <Ukyo> for set_lk_max_locks 537000
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1107 2013-12-30 18:01:50 <sipa> ugh
1108 2013-12-30 18:01:55 <Ukyo> Theymos had a forum post that you also need "set_lg_dir database"
1109 2013-12-30 18:01:57 <sipa> did we hit another silly bdb limit them
1110 2013-12-30 18:02:04 <Ukyo> which isnt mentioned
1111 2013-12-30 18:02:08 <sipa> that would surprise me
1112 2013-12-30 18:02:31 rm_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1113 2013-12-30 18:02:35 <sipa> but you can try
1114 2013-12-30 18:02:45 <Ukyo> i can try toying with the number of locks.
1115 2013-12-30 18:02:52 <Ukyo> any suggestion for higher number? :P
1116 2013-12-30 18:02:58 <Ukyo> double? hehe
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1118 2013-12-30 18:03:20 <sipa> you do have to restart bitcoind for it to take effect
1119 2013-12-30 18:03:35 <Ukyo> its down right now anyways
1120 2013-12-30 18:03:53 <Ukyo> so what.. 1074000 ?
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1124 2013-12-30 18:05:00 <Ukyo> well see what happens
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1126 2013-12-30 18:07:36 <kjj> also set_lk_max_objects
1127 2013-12-30 18:08:06 <Ukyo> to? :)
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1129 2013-12-30 18:08:15 <kjj> I'm using 40000 for both values
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1132 2013-12-30 18:11:19 <kjj> for what it's worth, I don't think that this is related
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1134 2013-12-30 18:14:15 <Ukyo> this time it started uip fine..
1135 2013-12-30 18:14:24 AriseChikun is now known as MoonLandingConsp
1136 2013-12-30 18:14:24 <Ukyo> but everytime i send getinfo i get the exception
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1140 2013-12-30 18:14:59 <Ukyo> even the getinfo at the bottom has "errors" : "EXCEPTION: 11DbException \nDb::get: Cannot allocate memory \nbitcoin in ProcessMEssage() \n"
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1143 2013-12-30 18:17:28 <Ukyo> all the details in getinfo seem to be right tho..
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1145 2013-12-30 18:18:24 <Ukyo> although the blockcount isnt catching up. stuck at 277595
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1149 2013-12-30 18:23:57 <jcorgan> 277595 also triggers the pre-0.8 issue
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1151 2013-12-30 18:24:12 <jcorgan> that happened yesterday
1152 2013-12-30 18:24:29 <jcorgan> actually, it is 277596 that triggers it, so it stays stuck on 277595
1153 2013-12-30 18:25:16 <Ukyo> suggested workaround?
1154 2013-12-30 18:25:32 <Ukyo> I increased locks to 1074000
1155 2013-12-30 18:25:35 <Ukyo> did not seem to help
1156 2013-12-30 18:25:56 <jcorgan> i don't know; i only run >=0.8 nodes so it didn't affect me
1157 2013-12-30 18:26:50 <jcorgan> while you are doing that, it would be useful to get the debug.log output for when it receives 277596
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1170 2013-12-30 18:45:17 <jcorgan> Ukyo: did you get it working?
1171 2013-12-30 18:45:52 <Ukyo> not yet. still stuck
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1181 2013-12-30 18:52:02 <jcorgan> i'm not really familiar with the locks issue, so i can't help unfortunately
1182 2013-12-30 18:52:21 <Ukyo> thanks though :)
1183 2013-12-30 18:53:53 <jcorgan> any chance though of posting a log snippet around the time block 277596 arrived?
1184 2013-12-30 18:54:03 <Ukyo> too much log
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1252 2013-12-30 20:05:26 <victor-> hey guys.. just wanted to show off what i built over the weekend: coinspy.io You can "follow" any bitcoin address.
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1259 2013-12-30 20:10:21 <CodeShark> cool - what are you using for your backend?
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1271 2013-12-30 20:19:29 <victor-> CodeShark, flask + boto
1272 2013-12-30 20:20:09 <victor-> consuming the blockchain info websocket stream, but i'll switch over to readng the blockchain directly if that ever becomes a problem. for now it's quite fast and real-time.
1273 2013-12-30 20:20:40 mist_ has joined
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1275 2013-12-30 20:20:52 <mist_> Hi! anyone know where the devs of armory hang out?
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1278 2013-12-30 20:23:10 <kjj> #armory ?
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1281 2013-12-30 20:24:49 <CodeShark> lock_time allows you to ensure a transaction cannot confirm before some time in the future - does bitcoin not support the reverse? that's to say, the ability to require a transaction to confirm before a deadline, thereafter it is void
1282 2013-12-30 20:24:50 <mist_> nobody in there kjj
1283 2013-12-30 20:25:16 <kjj> no
1284 2013-12-30 20:25:19 <mist_> i'm blind
1285 2013-12-30 20:25:21 <mist_> sorry
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1287 2013-12-30 20:25:58 <kjj> locktime is the only state allowed in transactions, and it is a one-way ratchet on purpose
1288 2013-12-30 20:27:39 <CodeShark> such a feature would be extremely useful in dealing with several practical scenarios, though - two such scenarios being 1) a transaction will not confirm, 2) a multisig transaction remains only partially signed
1289 2013-12-30 20:28:44 <CodeShark> as things stand, there is no clear way to handle these scenarios that provides finality other than purposely double-spending
1290 2013-12-30 20:29:30 <kjj> case 1 is handled by network amnesia, but the default client is, ahem, poor at local amnesia. case 2 is not a problem, ever
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1292 2013-12-30 20:30:17 <CodeShark> case 2 is only not considered a problem because nobody has the tools to really make full use of multisigs
1293 2013-12-30 20:30:23 <CodeShark> but in the future it will be a problem
1294 2013-12-30 20:30:58 <CodeShark> in fact, it's already a problem for the tools I'm working on :p
1295 2013-12-30 20:31:00 <kjj> a partially signed transaction won't make it in to your memory pool, much less your wallet. it won't get relayed. it won't get mined.
1296 2013-12-30 20:31:17 <CodeShark> no, a separate signature request protocol that occurs outside the flood network
1297 2013-12-30 20:31:27 <kjj> if you have a problem with partially signed transactions, that problem is yours, not bitcoin's
1298 2013-12-30 20:31:49 <kjj> feel free to add an expiration date to your protocol then
1299 2013-12-30 20:32:04 <CodeShark> ok, let me be more explicit:
1300 2013-12-30 20:32:20 <CodeShark> say you have a 2-of-3 signature policy on an account you share with two other people
1301 2013-12-30 20:32:50 <CodeShark> you create a transaction, provide one signature, then send it to your two buddies hoping one of them will sign and send
1302 2013-12-30 20:32:54 <CodeShark> but neither does
1303 2013-12-30 20:33:11 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1304 2013-12-30 20:33:17 <CodeShark> now, there's a transaction that exists which in principle could get signed by either of your buddies sometime in the future and sent
1305 2013-12-30 20:33:30 <CodeShark> you want finality - you want to know whether it happened or not - and you don't want to wait forever
1306 2013-12-30 20:34:10 <CodeShark> both your buddies have copies of the transaction with your signature - either one of them is now in a position to add a signature and flood it to the network
1307 2013-12-30 20:34:51 <CodeShark> there should be a deadline - either they sign before the deadline or the transaction is void
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1309 2013-12-30 20:35:44 <CodeShark> adding an expiration time to my protocol doesn't help at all here
1310 2013-12-30 20:35:53 <CodeShark> because we need the expiration enforced by the entire network
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1312 2013-12-30 20:36:02 <jcorgan> CodeShark: couldn't you get a timelocked TX from them in advance that you could broadcast?
1313 2013-12-30 20:36:23 <kjj> we have a winner!
1314 2013-12-30 20:36:53 <CodeShark> so a timelocked TX back to the same account?
1315 2013-12-30 20:37:16 <CodeShark> (account meaning a set of scripts that all have the 2-of-3 signing policy)
1316 2013-12-30 20:37:44 <kjj> a bitcoin transaction that can become invalid in the future would cause problems
1317 2013-12-30 20:37:58 <CodeShark> howso?
1318 2013-12-30 20:38:01 <kjj> the bitcoin network goes to considerable trouble to prevent that from happening
1319 2013-12-30 20:38:19 <kjj> say your "buddy" slips that transaction into a block by paying a miner directly
1320 2013-12-30 20:38:56 <kjj> but that block gets orphaned
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1322 2013-12-30 20:39:14 <kjj> the transaction was valid for a little while, but is not any longer
1323 2013-12-30 20:39:54 <CodeShark> why is that a problem?
1324 2013-12-30 20:40:14 <tholenst> True, this can happen. But it can also happen if the transaction was a double spend. Why is this worse here?
1325 2013-12-30 20:40:27 ThomasV has joined
1326 2013-12-30 20:41:34 <tholenst> Or is it just that one would like to prevent these situations as far as one can?
1327 2013-12-30 20:41:40 <kjj> a double spend is an ordering problem, what the network was built to handle
1328 2013-12-30 20:42:09 <CodeShark> but this is also an ordering problem
1329 2013-12-30 20:42:28 <CodeShark> did transaction get confirmed before or after a block with height X?
1330 2013-12-30 20:42:47 <CodeShark> the answer is always unambiguous in the long run
1331 2013-12-30 20:42:56 <CodeShark> assuming the network converges on the same chain
1332 2013-12-30 20:43:43 <CodeShark> it is no more ambiguous than the idea of having two conflicting transactions in two separate chains with the same height
1333 2013-12-30 20:48:19 shesek has joined
1334 2013-12-30 20:49:21 <CodeShark> anyhow, if I'm missing something I'd appreciate it if someone filled me in on it - if not, it seems like an extremely useful feature to have
1335 2013-12-30 20:50:48 mitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1336 2013-12-30 20:50:57 <CodeShark> the idea of requiring my buddies to first send me a timelocked signed transaction before I can even propose payments from our joint account seems like a horrendous protocol complication
1337 2013-12-30 20:53:14 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1338 2013-12-30 20:53:38 <CodeShark> not only thatâ¦even the timelocked signed transaction from my buddies doesn't guarantee the transaction I propose will be voided
1339 2013-12-30 20:53:50 shesek has joined
1340 2013-12-30 20:54:29 <CodeShark> I can't relax - I need to be constantly vigilant, making sure it propagatesâ¦and even then, it might take a very long time to confirm
1341 2013-12-30 20:54:53 shesek has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
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1343 2013-12-30 20:56:14 zeddan81 has joined
1344 2013-12-30 20:56:14 <CodeShark> and my buddies can even double-spend me
1345 2013-12-30 20:56:31 ConvivialMatt has joined
1346 2013-12-30 20:56:35 shesek has joined
1347 2013-12-30 20:57:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|22:49:32 <CodeShark> not only thatâ¦even the timelocked signed transaction from my buddies doesn't guarantee the transaction I propose will be voided
1348 2013-12-30 20:57:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It does, once it becomes valid and gets mined
1349 2013-12-30 20:58:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|At that point you have the finality of "the transaction I proposed is dead"
1350 2013-12-30 20:58:20 <CodeShark> argh - why the hell would we do it that?
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1353 2013-12-30 20:59:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|CodeShark: did you accidentally a word?
1354 2013-12-30 20:59:07 <CodeShark> yes
1355 2013-12-30 20:59:11 <CodeShark> argh - why the hell would we do it like that?
1356 2013-12-30 20:59:17 <jcorgan> this will eventually become automated, and you won't even know what a timelocked transaction is
1357 2013-12-30 20:59:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|CodeShark: Well, the only way to invalidate a transaction is for another transaction to spend its inputs
1358 2013-12-30 20:59:51 <jcorgan> just, "if other person dies/goes away/becomes evil/etc. just push this button after X date time"
1359 2013-12-30 21:00:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(well, you could always use a trusted oracle...)
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1362 2013-12-30 21:00:49 <CodeShark> ok, so let's walk through the use scenario: A wants to send a payment to X, but requires either B or C's approval as well. A signs and sends to B and C. now it's up to B or C to sign before a deadline or else nothing happens (nothing happening is almost always the safest outcome)
1363 2013-12-30 21:00:53 <CodeShark> vs:
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1365 2013-12-30 21:02:06 <CodeShark> A wants to send to X but requires either B or C's approval as well. A sends a request to B and C for a timelocked transaction spending such and such outputs. B and C then have to both agree to do this, each sign (which requires at least one of them to send a partially signed to the other at some point, so we get infinite regress)
1366 2013-12-30 21:02:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|CodeShark: no, B and C don't both have to agree
1367 2013-12-30 21:02:25 <CodeShark> we didn't solve the problem
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1370 2013-12-30 21:02:34 <CodeShark> now B and C have to negotiate this
1371 2013-12-30 21:02:36 gmaxwell_ is now known as gmaxwell
1372 2013-12-30 21:02:59 <CodeShark> so now we need to do an atomic transfer of signatures
1373 2013-12-30 21:03:16 <CodeShark> since if one sends the signature to the other first, we again have the same problem as before
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1376 2013-12-30 21:03:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There's no way around it with the current Bitcoin system -- if you want a transaction that becomes invalid, the only way is to have a timelocked transaction that spends one or more of the inputs
1377 2013-12-30 21:04:12 <CodeShark> I understand there is no way to do it currently - I'm asking whether there's a good reason not to add this feature to a later version of the protocol
1378 2013-12-30 21:04:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You could use an input that only you control, that you could spend to invalidate the incomplete multisig
1379 2013-12-30 21:04:38 go11111111111 has joined
1380 2013-12-30 21:04:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(in that case, you don't actually need the timelock)
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1385 2013-12-30 21:05:47 <Joric> gmaxwell, how could you improve brainwallet.org?
1386 2013-12-30 21:06:12 <jakov> rm -rf * probably
1387 2013-12-30 21:06:16 <wyager> hahaha
1388 2013-12-30 21:07:30 john5223 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1389 2013-12-30 21:07:31 justanotheruser1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1390 2013-12-30 21:07:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Joric: For one, with huge half-page red warnings on every page
1391 2013-12-30 21:08:11 <Joric> DON'T USE
1392 2013-12-30 21:08:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And probably cutting out a bunch of its functionality
1393 2013-12-30 21:08:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The brainwallet part, for example
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1396 2013-12-30 21:09:58 <Joric> i wonder some ppl write theres a network activity on every input what the fuck is it, chinese firewall? heard they just love github
1397 2013-12-30 21:10:43 <Joric> unfortunately github pages don't support ssl :(
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1401 2013-12-30 21:11:51 <jcorgan> Joric: wtf?
1402 2013-12-30 21:12:17 <Joric> jcorgan, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=335157.0
1403 2013-12-30 21:12:35 <CodeShark> michagogo|cloud: alas, the extra input only you control might well be the best current solution
1404 2013-12-30 21:12:53 <Joric> maybe just a smartass local provider
1405 2013-12-30 21:14:09 <CodeShark> it's a much more complicated solution than just having an expiration height for most practical usagesâ¦but it's certainly better than requiring a timelocked transaction
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1407 2013-12-30 21:16:10 <Joric> i'm so drunk right now, happy NY eve everybody
1408 2013-12-30 21:16:43 <jakov> isnt that tomorrow Joric ?
1409 2013-12-30 21:17:01 <Joric> i will come all prepared
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1411 2013-12-30 21:17:18 <BlueMatt> drunk irc is best irc
1412 2013-12-30 21:17:55 <Joric> BlueMatt, am i a good bitcoiner? gmaxwell hates me for some reason
1413 2013-12-30 21:18:09 <BlueMatt> because you're drunk on irc, maybe?
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1418 2013-12-30 21:21:31 <Joric> yeah... maybe that's it
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1434 2013-12-30 21:38:57 <optimator> i'm getting an error when i try to compile the latest github source...
1435 2013-12-30 21:39:03 <optimator> CXX rpcserver.o
1436 2013-12-30 21:39:04 <optimator> g++: internal compiler error: Killed (program cc1plus)
1437 2013-12-30 21:39:19 bbrian has joined
1438 2013-12-30 21:39:20 <optimator> it's on ubuntu. Any idea where to start looking?
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1441 2013-12-30 21:41:32 <jcorgan> it's a shot in the dark, but are you running out of memory or do possibly have flaky memory?
1442 2013-12-30 21:42:31 <optimator> good thought! that might actually be it - I'm compiling it on a micro ec2 instance. Let me try a small
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1446 2013-12-30 21:43:12 <jaakkos> optimator: have you checked dmesg?
1447 2013-12-30 21:43:42 <jaakkos> perhaps g++ was owned by oomkiller
1448 2013-12-30 21:43:42 Neozonz has joined
1449 2013-12-30 21:44:03 <optimator> :) Out of memory: Kill process 1569 (cc1plus) score 909
1450 2013-12-30 21:44:57 <optimator> jaakkos, jcorgan THANKS
1451 2013-12-30 21:45:42 Ostkaka_ is now known as Ostkaka
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1453 2013-12-30 21:46:15 <jcorgan> optimator: it's not possible to compile or or sync with a t1.micro
1454 2013-12-30 21:46:30 davec has quit (Quit: leaving)
1455 2013-12-30 21:46:38 <jcorgan> you can restart the instance as an m1.small, compile, sync, then *try* to restart it as a t1.micro
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1459 2013-12-30 21:47:34 <optimator> i was using testnet-in-a-box and wanted to compile in the readonly address pull and i thought i could use a micro. i'll switch to a small
1460 2013-12-30 21:47:36 <BlueMatt> compile locally, sync locally, scp those files to your m1.micro, run there
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1465 2013-12-30 21:49:04 <jcorgan> yeah, right now I have a bitcoind only m1.small that is supporting +100 onion connections, the resident memory usage is only 400M
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1471 2013-12-30 21:50:03 <jcorgan> but i'm about to put up an electrum server so i won't be able to go to t1.micro
1472 2013-12-30 21:50:09 BurtyB has joined
1473 2013-12-30 21:50:21 <optimator> why electrum?
1474 2013-12-30 21:50:53 <jcorgan> i'm using electrum client for some things, i want to have a server i can fall back to if there are none other available
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1477 2013-12-30 21:51:28 <optimator> oh, server - got it
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1480 2013-12-30 21:52:55 <jcorgan> BlueMatt: btw, syncing on an m1.small of random nodes is pretty fast, a half-day or so
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1485 2013-12-30 21:58:14 <optimator> so, how's the best way for me to pull this commit? https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin/commit/a3bfbf95bf204f9b2b8b7cd844c9aab267f34e82
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1488 2013-12-30 22:00:46 <jcorgan> do you know how to drive git?
1489 2013-12-30 22:02:50 agnostic98 has joined
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1491 2013-12-30 22:03:33 <optimator> no - that's the problem. My one big git command is "git clone"
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1495 2013-12-30 22:06:20 <jcorgan> you could try 'git remote add laanwj git://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin'
1496 2013-12-30 22:06:31 <jcorgan> followed by 'git remote update laanwj'
1497 2013-12-30 22:06:45 <jcorgan> followed by 'git cherry-pick a3bfbf95'
1498 2013-12-30 22:07:10 <jcorgan> depending on where you are starting from, that commit may or may not apply cleanly
1499 2013-12-30 22:07:33 <jcorgan> or it may depend on something else that is present in the tree
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1504 2013-12-30 22:08:18 <jcorgan> that assumes you are starting from a clone of the bitcoin repo, by the way
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1506 2013-12-30 22:12:22 <optimator> ok - i see the idea. is a3bfbf95 truncated? or where does that come from. That's the part that fails
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1509 2013-12-30 22:13:07 <jcorgan> actually, it looks like that commit isn't there anymore, but i think i found it at 2eb96d15
1510 2013-12-30 22:13:23 <jcorgan> yes, that's a truncated commit hash
1511 2013-12-30 22:13:50 <jcorgan> you only need to get enough to make it unique, 7-8 hex digits is almost always enough
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1514 2013-12-30 22:15:02 <optimator> ah! that worked. How'd you see it wasn't there?
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1516 2013-12-30 22:15:55 <jcorgan> when i browsed the repository locally and couldn't find that commit hash
1517 2013-12-30 22:16:12 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1518 2013-12-30 22:16:17 <jcorgan> but then i searched for 'watch-only' in the log message and found this one, assuming that's what you were looking for
1519 2013-12-30 22:16:27 <optimator> i guess me and git need to get friendly
1520 2013-12-30 22:16:41 <optimator> thanks again for your help
1521 2013-12-30 22:16:59 <jcorgan> you can use gitk (tk-based, ugly), qgit (qt based, but slow), or tig (ncurses) to do that sort of thing
1522 2013-12-30 22:17:21 <jcorgan> no prob, glad i could help
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1530 2013-12-30 22:24:11 <Jerub> no altcoin support here: My questions surround altcoins, so where do i go :)
1531 2013-12-30 22:24:58 <Emcy> #$alt$coin?
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1535 2013-12-30 22:26:47 <Jerub> Emcy: heh, about as useful as you'd expect.
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1537 2013-12-30 22:27:27 <Jerub> i'm trying to figure out how to programatically run as many different wallets as possible for the altcoins.
1538 2013-12-30 22:28:15 <Jerub> well, bitcoin as well, but i think i have that in hand.
1539 2013-12-30 22:29:48 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1540 2013-12-30 22:29:52 <Emcy> why would you want to do taht
1541 2013-12-30 22:33:46 <Jerub> because i want to manage multiple altcoin currencies without running N altcoin QT wallets.
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1556 2013-12-30 22:47:32 <wyager> Use their RCP interfaces?
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