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   6 2014-01-02 00:05:26 <comboy> getaddr returns only nodes that given peer has been connected to or also addrs received from others?
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  36 2014-01-02 00:35:08 <gmaxwell> hehe: https://proofmarket.org/
  37 2014-01-02 00:35:34 <gmaxwell> now, just need a COQ to SNARK compiler and support in Bitcoin to make that trustless. :P
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  40 2014-01-02 00:39:17 <robonerd> meh
  41 2014-01-02 00:39:23 <robonerd> stackoverflow ftw
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  71 2014-01-02 01:09:54 <nessence> gmaxwell: what is the idea behind "Switch to block hashing algorithm secure against block withholding attacks."?
  72 2014-01-02 01:10:25 <nessence> er, if that's something you happened to have considered
  73 2014-01-02 01:11:06 <gmaxwell> nessence: I think these days I probably want to do the opposite— (e.g. make cloud hashing impossible to secure)... but the thought there is easy to explain.
  74 2014-01-02 01:12:09 <gmaxwell> nessence: make it so that the difficulty of a block is tested in two stages. E.g. H(header) < target_1  AND H(header||pool_nonce) < target_2 with H(pool_nonce) committed in the block.
  75 2014-01-02 01:12:16 shesek has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  76 2014-01-02 01:12:45 <gmaxwell> then target_1 is just a share difficulty, and target_2 is the pool difficulty. Then the miner can tell if he has a share, but can't tell if he has a block.
  77 2014-01-02 01:13:37 <gmaxwell> But doing that would break some of the "selfish mining" fixes, plus doing things that _lower_ the costs of hashpower consolidations (like the risk of withholding attacks) would be the wrong direction.
  78 2014-01-02 01:14:04 <nessence> that'd probably be nice for the next 6.5yrs
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  82 2014-01-02 01:17:38 <nessence> how does the second hash discourage withholding transactions?
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  86 2014-01-02 01:19:41 <nessence> I was thinking earlier today that miners could charge people (out of band) to prioritize inclusion of their transactions
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  89 2014-01-02 01:22:35 <gmaxwell> nessence: oh perhaps you didn't understand the problem that the text you were speaking about was concerned with.
  90 2014-01-02 01:23:01 <nessence> ah, crap, you're right
  91 2014-01-02 01:23:01 <gmaxwell> It's concerned with "block withholding", which is an attack on mining pools where the miner discards any blocks they find, in order to bankrupt the pool.
  92 2014-01-02 01:23:01 [\\\]_b is now known as [\\\]
  93 2014-01-02 01:23:14 <nessence> I guess instead of the word block, I saw the word transaction
  94 2014-01-02 01:23:40 <nessence> I can see how the nonce resolves that
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  96 2014-01-02 01:24:51 <gmaxwell> It's costly to the attacker too, which is part of why it doesn't appear to be a major problem there are other things pools can do, like make 1% of their payout take the form of bonuses for finding blocks— increases variance for small miners but makes withholding even less attractive.
  97 2014-01-02 01:26:44 <nessence> I think it's only costly right now because it's not a problem yet, because there aren't enough transactions for there to be a market for it
  98 2014-01-02 01:27:36 <nessence> the volume is low enough that it probably wouldn't be worth it to write the code
  99 2014-01-02 01:28:12 <nessence> but if two people have 90% of the throughput, they can work together to replace the wireline fee with their own fee
 100 2014-01-02 01:28:27 <nessence> or is that too far fetched?
 101 2014-01-02 01:30:11 shesek has joined
 102 2014-01-02 01:30:25 <gmaxwell> huh?
 103 2014-01-02 01:30:45 Stimulants has joined
 104 2014-01-02 01:31:09 <shesek> I'm not sure when I got disconnected, so I'll re-post it:
 105 2014-01-02 01:31:11 <shesek> <shesek> how does that help?
 106 2014-01-02 01:31:13 <shesek> <shesek> and why's "Elimination of output scripts: all transactions pay-to-scripthash" considered an hard fork?
 107 2014-01-02 01:31:16 <shesek> (the first question was about the two stage difficulty test)
 108 2014-01-02 01:31:48 <nessence> gmaxwell: a transaction commits by way of a miner solving a block?
 109 2014-01-02 01:32:01 drayah has joined
 110 2014-01-02 01:32:11 <gmaxwell> shesek: go look at the logs and I explained it more http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2014/01/02
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 114 2014-01-02 01:33:08 <shesek> ah, I only saw what you wrote until "make it so that the difficulty of a block is tested in two stages ..."
 115 2014-01-02 01:33:35 Liquid__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 116 2014-01-02 01:33:38 <gmaxwell> shesek: prohibiting something is a soft-fork, though really disruptive soft-forking changes are "compariable" to hardforks in the timing or caution in deploying them. If bitcoin really were to eliminate non-P2SH transactions there would probably be some refactoring to make that simpler.
 117 2014-01-02 01:33:51 Liquid__ has joined
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 120 2014-01-02 01:34:34 <gmaxwell> most of that hardfork wishlist stuff was written in late 2011 I think, it would be somewhat different if written today.
 121 2014-01-02 01:35:04 <gmaxwell> (changing everything to something P2SH like would still be there though)
 122 2014-01-02 01:35:05 <shesek> oh, right. I was thinking "eliminate" just meant always using p2sh as the default, not forbidding non-p2sh outputs
 123 2014-01-02 01:35:35 <gmaxwell> yea, no, you don't get the simplification unless you get rid of the old stuff. :)
 124 2014-01-02 01:36:55 <nessence> gmaxwell: if pool A had 40% hashpower and pool B had 40% hashpower, is pool A+B going to solve 80% of the blocks?
 125 2014-01-02 01:37:04 jspilman01 has joined
 126 2014-01-02 01:37:52 <shesek> wouldn't that kill the option of using OP_RETURN for storing data though?
 127 2014-01-02 01:38:32 <shesek> and also, make it impossible to know if an output is prunable?
 128 2014-01-02 01:38:35 Stimulants has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 129 2014-01-02 01:38:39 jspilman has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 130 2014-01-02 01:39:58 <gmaxwell> nessence: yes.
 131 2014-01-02 01:40:37 <gmaxwell> shesek: it would be better to just have a not-an-output data in transactions, preferrably behind a hash, so that the transaction minus that data could be proven without that data.
 132 2014-01-02 01:40:50 robep00 has joined
 133 2014-01-02 01:41:27 <gmaxwell> shesek: Have you seen the P2SH^2 post? http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=30705609
 134 2014-01-02 01:41:59 <shesek> reading now
 135 2014-01-02 01:42:58 Dalorian has joined
 136 2014-01-02 01:43:03 <gmaxwell> (I think in general the technical minds consider data storage (as opposed to data commitments) to be a minor existential risk for Bitcoin, though probably not one worth doing anything about except guiding people to the least damaging ways to do it.)
 137 2014-01-02 01:43:27 h3ron has quit (Quit: h3ron)
 138 2014-01-02 01:43:58 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, quick put the blockchain in a DHT
 139 2014-01-02 01:44:03 * phantomcircuit runs away
 140 2014-01-02 01:45:09 Dalorian has left ()
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 142 2014-01-02 01:46:37 <nessence> gmaxwell: so, once transaction volume reaches say... 10 transactions per second, even if there are 1000 mining pools... those 2 pool owners could just silently withhold transactions. Your transaction will then only have a 20% chance of making it into this block, 20% of next block, etc. Meanwhile the rest of the network will be buffering these transactions.
 143 2014-01-02 01:47:43 <gmaxwell> nessence: You are providing a lot of extranious details there that suggest confusion to me. Why do you think "transactions per second" is relevant?
 144 2014-01-02 01:48:05 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 145 2014-01-02 01:48:11 <gmaxwell> also, for the purpose of common language, I'd probably not use the word "withhold", I'd call it "censor" or "block"
 146 2014-01-02 01:48:14 <nessence> right now the average volume is so slow, why would a mining pool even bother with the idea?
 147 2014-01-02 01:48:21 drayah has joined
 148 2014-01-02 01:48:31 <gmaxwell> nessence: Yea, so your response still makes no sense to me.
 149 2014-01-02 01:48:33 <nessence> or drop, perhaps
 150 2014-01-02 01:48:40 <gmaxwell> Can you explain to me why you think volume matters?
 151 2014-01-02 01:49:27 <nessence> if I have a pool w/80% hash throughput, and there are 100 transactions per second occurring, why should I include any 0.01BTC transaction in my blocks?
 152 2014-01-02 01:50:06 <gmaxwell> nessence: why not, if they're the highest paying transactions per byte that fit in the block?
 153 2014-01-02 01:50:39 <gmaxwell> Already the behavior of miners is to rank transactions by the fee per byte and include the most profitable ones first— thats how you get a fee market.
 154 2014-01-02 01:50:57 <gmaxwell> Including just everything with no selection creates a trivial DOS vulnerability.
 155 2014-01-02 01:51:44 mack25_ has joined
 156 2014-01-02 01:52:09 <nessence> hrm
 157 2014-01-02 01:52:19 <gmaxwell> More potent is that miners can censor transactions even if they are higher paying... and some do today. Usually for reasons which they believe are protective of the network, but the same capability could be used for purposes most would agree were bad in the future. This is part of why it's important to not reuse addresses in bitcoin since doing so makes censoring more viable.
 158 2014-01-02 01:52:20 <nessence> a 1.00 BTC transaction uses more bytes than 0.01BTC?
 159 2014-01-02 01:52:33 <gmaxwell> nessence: no. The value and bytes are not directly related.
 160 2014-01-02 01:52:58 <gmaxwell> A transaction which spends more previous outputs is larger, and a transaction which creates more new outputs is somewhat larger.
 161 2014-01-02 01:53:20 <shesek> gmaxwell, interesting solution, definitely makes sense to only allow hashes for data verification and force the actual storage to take place elsewhere
 162 2014-01-02 01:53:21 <nessence> yeah, that was the other thing I was going to mention. They can censor all transactions > 1BTC unless you pay them under the table
 163 2014-01-02 01:54:00 <nessence> or heck. censor every transaction unless you pay them
 164 2014-01-02 01:54:11 <shesek> I see a lot of interesting use-cases for storing hashes that could benefit from using bitcoin's blockchain, not so much for arbitrary data storage
 165 2014-01-02 01:54:15 <phantomcircuit> nessence, that would be economically irrational in nearly every case
 166 2014-01-02 01:54:30 <gmaxwell> shesek: yea, I dunno if we'll ever implement something like that in bitcoin. The problem is that people won't think its important until its too late. (e.g. some authority saying its unlawful to run a bitcoin full node because of some forbidden data someone stuffed in a transaction) ("But don't worry, you can use a thin client, and the state is running this nice node for you.")
 167 2014-01-02 01:54:56 Starduster has quit (Quit: gotta go)
 168 2014-01-02 01:55:07 <gmaxwell> shesek: yea, though with merged mined hasttrees you don't even need the hashes in the blocks, just a single hash of a tree of hashes. So that takes no space at all.
 169 2014-01-02 01:55:35 <gmaxwell> nessence: they can, but it's not very effective unless malicious parties control a majority of hashpower.
 170 2014-01-02 01:55:38 thegimp has joined
 171 2014-01-02 01:55:47 <gmaxwell> Sadly, the poor distribution of control of hashpower now means thats not out of the question.
 172 2014-01-02 01:55:50 thegimp has left ()
 173 2014-01-02 01:55:54 <gmaxwell> But that isn't the intended design of the system. :(
 174 2014-01-02 01:55:57 <shesek> well, it does, it takes the space of one hash
 175 2014-01-02 01:56:03 <nessence> well, I guess the point is that, for a given transaction, there's a criteria such that a miner could make more by censoring those transactions and charging a premium to include them
 176 2014-01-02 01:56:10 <gmaxwell> shesek: we already have a data commitment hash in most blocks.
 177 2014-01-02 01:56:11 <phantomcircuit> shesek, ~0 then
 178 2014-01-02 01:56:18 <gmaxwell> shesek: so no more than we already have. :P
 179 2014-01-02 01:56:23 <gmaxwell> (for merged mining)
 180 2014-01-02 01:56:39 <shesek> and it requires cooperation with some parties to include it, which takes away some of the decentralization
 181 2014-01-02 01:56:45 <phantomcircuit> nessence, except some other miner would incorporate them
 182 2014-01-02 01:57:10 <gmaxwell> shesek: well, ehh, all bitcoin requires mining cooperation. The only difference is what the software does by default, which could be changed.
 183 2014-01-02 01:58:22 <gmaxwell> (and I think if someone showed up with good patches to add by-default-data commitment stuff I would be strongly in favor of merging them. ... Sure, it's "outside of bitcoin's scope" but it would prevent a lot of inefficient usage.)
 184 2014-01-02 01:58:39 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 185 2014-01-02 02:00:08 <shesek> so how does it work? how do/would I get a hash into the merkle tree whose root is getting included in the block?
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 188 2014-01-02 02:00:44 <shesek> would there some way to broadcast it using bitcoin's p2p network? what's to motive to include it?
 189 2014-01-02 02:01:13 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
 190 2014-01-02 02:01:33 <shesek> I assume you can't attach fees to it, so what's the incentive?
 191 2014-01-02 02:02:07 thegimp has joined
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 193 2014-01-02 02:03:33 <gmaxwell> The motivation is to keep shit out of the bitcoin blockchain (in every bitcoin user's interest). Payment could be in the form of proving you paid transaction fees in the past.
 194 2014-01-02 02:04:04 <gmaxwell> (e.g. no marginal transactions per commitment)  or in the form of a probablistic payment of some kind.
 195 2014-01-02 02:04:45 drayah has joined
 196 2014-01-02 02:05:18 <gmaxwell> as far as getting data in, probably by having nodes flood announcement of willingness to accept and aggregate them. There are a number of ways it could be constructed. I suspect someone who sat down to implement would have a better feel for which ways they preferred.
 197 2014-01-02 02:05:22 transito has quit ()
 198 2014-01-02 02:05:29 <shesek> I think we're already seeing the tragedy of the commons in action (like what's going on with cex/ghash), I'm not sure that keeping shit out the blockchain is a good enough incentive for people
 199 2014-01-02 02:06:29 <shesek> how about protecting against ddos attacks on those nodes?
 200 2014-01-02 02:07:15 <shesek> I dunno, it just seems like the way transactions work already resolves a lot of possible issues with that
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 203 2014-01-02 02:07:23 <gmaxwell> shesek: just use the same mechnisms that prevents them from being DDOSed today.
 204 2014-01-02 02:07:59 dcash has joined
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 206 2014-01-02 02:08:10 <gmaxwell> E.g. your request to commit data comes in the form of a transaction which spends spendable coins. Just one thats made invalid (e.g. by being locked until a billion years into the future) so it can't actually get in the chain.
 207 2014-01-02 02:08:40 <gmaxwell> or by commiting to it in a probablistic payment that only as a 1:10000 chance of being minable.
 208 2014-01-02 02:09:01 robep00 has joined
 209 2014-01-02 02:09:46 <shesek> so they'll keep track of which outputs were already used for that?
 210 2014-01-02 02:10:05 <gmaxwell> yea, via a limitedmap or the like.
 211 2014-01-02 02:10:26 <gmaxwell> (capacitated random hashtable)
 212 2014-01-02 02:10:26 <shesek> you could just pay them for inclusion beforehand, but than you still end up with a tx for every committed hash :\
 213 2014-01-02 02:10:56 <shesek> so what prevents one from moving the coins to a output and using that? they'll take the coin age into account?
 214 2014-01-02 02:11:00 roconnor has joined
 215 2014-01-02 02:11:01 <shesek> * a new output
 216 2014-01-02 02:11:03 <gmaxwell> yea, and plus if you have a direct pay for like that it may well be too expensive. The proper price for commitments is ~0 because you could always nest commitments.
 217 2014-01-02 02:11:05 transito has joined
 218 2014-01-02 02:12:12 <shesek> it still requires holding the tree in memory and hashing it, so there's some ram and cpu that's being used for that (but yeah, the cost is pretty close to 0)
 219 2014-01-02 02:12:38 RoboTeddy has joined
 220 2014-01-02 02:13:13 <gmaxwell> see open transactions, petertodd uses a insertion ordered tree that requires log2(n) storage. In theory the commiting party can forget the data as they commit it.
 221 2014-01-02 02:13:39 <gmaxwell> (incrementally I mean, you're never require to store more than log2(n) hashes.)
 222 2014-01-02 02:14:28 <gmaxwell> its trivially cheap in any case. Ignoring the more direct bitcoin tie-ins you can probalby using mining hashcash as a POW to prevent flooding.
 223 2014-01-02 02:14:56 <gmaxwell> probably* :)
 224 2014-01-02 02:15:36 <gmaxwell> in any case, this infrastructure just doesn't exist in part because there is no way to monetize it, and while bitcoin users will dump millions on make money fast schemes they generally will not fund common infrastructure.
 225 2014-01-02 02:15:47 <shesek> don't they still need to give each committer the parts of the merkle tree that he needs in order to prove his hash is in there?
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 227 2014-01-02 02:17:21 <gmaxwell> shesek: yes, but the tree grows incrementally meaning you could, if you wanted, give them one addtional hash at a time as it grows.
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 230 2014-01-02 02:18:58 <gmaxwell> in any case, talking about the cost of the trees is kinda blue skies stuff. Consider stamping a million items per block, thats 32 mbytes of hashes.. no big deal, and a million items is enormous, and yet 32mbytes is cheap, something that widely used could presumably find ways to support itself.
 231 2014-01-02 02:19:16 <shesek> so the committer would have to stay connected and receive those messages until its finalized and mined?
 232 2014-01-02 02:19:43 <gmaxwell> yea, if you wanted to use that optimization that made the tree builder memoryless.
 233 2014-01-02 02:21:13 <gmaxwell> shesek: e.g. you have some channel to communicate back the proofs,  so you just transmit on it every time the amount being committed doubles, telling everyone of an extra hash.
 234 2014-01-02 02:22:35 <gmaxwell> e.g. you give them data, then someone else gives them data and they tell the two players the adj hashes. Then two more people give them data, and it tells each of the four players the adj hashes. The server itself just needs to remember the rightmost nodes long the tree as it grows.
 235 2014-01-02 02:23:22 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 236 2014-01-02 02:23:24 <gmaxwell> though I think, realisitcally, just having the aggregating node use 32mbytes of storage and be only willing to commit to proofs up to 20 levels deep (a million entries), is probably perfectly reasonable.
 237 2014-01-02 02:23:59 <gmaxwell> I think the worldwide need for bitcoin stamped commitments is way less than that, and if I'm wrong you can just stack another system inside of it.
 238 2014-01-02 02:25:07 <shesek> you could have an hierarchical tree of aggregating nodes, each giving his hash root to a bigger merkle tree
 239 2014-01-02 02:25:24 <shesek> like a merkle tree of nodes, where each keeps track of its own internal tree
 240 2014-01-02 02:25:36 <shesek> that could scale to pretty much anything
 241 2014-01-02 02:25:37 <gmaxwell> fwiw, NTP seems to be surviving pretty well, and has no direct monetization scheme, likewise for DNS resolvers (well, they're considered necessary for ISPs, ... but we could consider bitcoin stamper aggregation a criticial internet infrastructure someday)
 242 2014-01-02 02:26:55 <gmaxwell> shesek: yea thats why I say the fair price for this is ~0 because if you have a stamper that costs X, well I can build a substamper which supports up to Y, for Y→∞ substamps, and the stamper can't even block me from doing that. So the natural price in a competative market is probably very close to 0 (just blocked by the development and startup cost friction)
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 245 2014-01-02 02:28:43 <shesek> I agree - the actual resources needed for operating this are close to nothing and the payment for committing an hash is indeed ~0
 246 2014-01-02 02:29:19 <shesek> but what's the motivation for people to take the hassle of setting this up? just goodwill and care about the bitcoin network?
 247 2014-01-02 02:29:24 <gmaxwell> so I _think_ it's in bitcoin users/holders best interest to just build and run the damn thing to keep people who want the service from kluding it poorly and externalizing an even greater cost onto us.
 248 2014-01-02 02:29:35 <shesek> if Bitcoin mining was based on that, we'd go nowhere :)
 249 2014-01-02 02:29:40 <gmaxwell> Because people doing it in the O(N) way makes bitcoin less useful as a currency.
 250 2014-01-02 02:30:03 <gmaxwell> And bitcoin is already useful is a currency, so there is some expected value loss if we don't. Though I dunno how to cut through the freeloading.
 251 2014-01-02 02:30:06 <shesek> I'm afraid that everyone would just assume that someone else would take care of that...
 252 2014-01-02 02:30:13 <gmaxwell> yea, thus freeloading. :)
 253 2014-01-02 02:31:28 <gmaxwell> A lot of open source software has no obvious direct economically rational reason to exist in any case, it just sort of happens, and then its easier to improve it.
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 256 2014-01-02 02:41:40 <shesek> wouldn't it be easier to have services that commit the root hash in a single transaction?
 257 2014-01-02 02:41:52 <shesek> so that it wouldn't depend on having mining power?
 258 2014-01-02 02:42:21 * nessence isn't very good at preventing coercion in a capitalistic work environment
 259 2014-01-02 02:42:35 <shesek> you'll end up with more transactions from multiple services, but its still pretty negligible and doesn't depend on the willingness of pools to participate
 260 2014-01-02 02:44:11 <shesek> plus those services could commit their hash root to another one of those services
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 262 2014-01-02 02:44:40 <shesek> so it could even end up as a single tx, if everyone eventually delegates to the same top service
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 264 2014-01-02 02:47:15 <gmaxwell> shesek: it still depends on miners willingness to not block it. Besides, you're then requiring _additional_ parties who might want to monetize it, when it could just be some largely invisibile software behavior in programs miners already run, basically a one time cost.
 265 2014-01-02 02:48:06 mitz has joined
 266 2014-01-02 02:48:32 <shesek> oh, you think its possible to have it integrated directly into bitcoind and on by default?
 267 2014-01-02 02:48:56 <gmaxwell> yep
 268 2014-01-02 02:48:58 <shesek> yeah, that does make it much easier
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 270 2014-01-02 02:50:04 <gmaxwell> basically it changes it to just the development cost, .. and then it would just be a question of it being cheap enough to run that no one would bother turning it off... and I believe thats not hard to achieve.
 271 2014-01-02 02:50:06 <nessence> bitcoin really isn't evil right now. miners are handsomely rewarded no matter how honest they are :P (at a transactional level)
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 273 2014-01-02 02:50:56 <shesek> btw, I've been thinking on changing the way btproof works (currently it spams the utxo... shame on the younger naive me who didn't know better). what would you suggest to do that's possible right now?
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 275 2014-01-02 02:52:37 <shesek> I could at least avoid spamming the utxo with OP_RETURN, which isn't ideal but still better than what its currently doing
 276 2014-01-02 02:53:13 <shesek> but that would probably be hard to get mined, which could be problematic with time-sensitive timestamps
 277 2014-01-02 02:53:14 <gmaxwell> shesek: oh is btproof yours?
 278 2014-01-02 02:54:00 <shesek> yeah, it is
 279 2014-01-02 02:54:39 <shesek> I know what it currently does is quite awful, I did that a long time ago :-\
 280 2014-01-02 02:54:47 <gmaxwell> shesek: you could switch to what opentimestamps does... builds it's own hashtree and uses multisig to commit it in a spendable output. (one of two, and one public key is the data). OP_RETURN would be slightly preferable but you'll have problems getting it mined right now.  (Eligius will mine op_return but not if they carry any data at all).
 281 2014-01-02 02:55:16 <shesek> yeah, 1-of-2 was my other option
 282 2014-01-02 02:55:28 <warren> would the chronobit approach work if you had enough pools cooperating?
 283 2014-01-02 02:55:45 <gmaxwell> warren: sure, it just requires someone to actually do and maintain the software.
 284 2014-01-02 02:56:01 <shesek> but it would require using an api btproof would provide, I wanted to allow people to do that in-browser themselves without having the server involved
 285 2014-01-02 02:56:17 <shesek> but it might be a bad idea to pursue that option
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 287 2014-01-02 02:56:51 <gmaxwell> shesek: you can also convert delays into benefits.  E.g. the advantage of having an aggregation point is that you can also get a conventional timestamp from the aggregator which can be much more precise (though obviously less trustworthy, but with a source of trust which is easier to explain)
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 289 2014-01-02 02:57:51 <maaku> gmaxwell: i'd love to see your new hard-fork wishlist ;)
 290 2014-01-02 02:57:53 <shesek> if you commit to the blockchain once a day, it gives the service operator a whole 24 hours range it can lie about
 291 2014-01-02 02:58:07 <gmaxwell> e.g. any commitment gives you two times, one from the aggregator which is as precise and reliable as he is, and one from the bitcoin network.
 292 2014-01-02 02:58:10 <shesek> I can see courts trusting the blockchain, not so much trusting server operators
 293 2014-01-02 02:58:19 <shesek> * service
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 295 2014-01-02 02:59:11 <gmaxwell> shesek: aggregating once per block is still always no worse than no aggregation.
 296 2014-01-02 03:00:27 <shesek> its hard to do that reliably, how do you know when to broadcast?
 297 2014-01-02 03:00:33 <gmaxwell> e.g. just produce a commitment transaction up to once an hour, maybe it's only commiting one thing sometimes, but thats in no way worse than one transaction per item.
 298 2014-01-02 03:00:50 <gmaxwell> shesek: one hour from the first item you have in the queue. :P
 299 2014-01-02 03:01:09 <shesek> its once per 6 blocks on average, not once per block
 300 2014-01-02 03:01:40 <shesek> but yeah, its a good option with no downside other than adding a small delay between the timestamp request and when its mined
 301 2014-01-02 03:01:54 <gmaxwell> well I switched from saying once per block to once per hour because I thought once per time was easier to implement, and because once per hour was a good natural speed.
 302 2014-01-02 03:01:58 <shesek> one hour shouldn't be critical in most cases
 303 2014-01-02 03:02:22 <gmaxwell> (there are applications which care about timestamps faster than once per hour but they cannot be satisfied by any blockchain regardless, though the notary's own clock may be sufficient)
 304 2014-01-02 03:02:43 <gmaxwell> keep in mind the bitcoin blockchan only has very lose promises about time.
 305 2014-01-02 03:03:29 <shesek> yes, of course
 306 2014-01-02 03:03:30 <gmaxwell> I've observed blocks with times an hour in the past and well over an hour (1.5?) in the future.
 307 2014-01-02 03:04:28 <nessence> I certainly hope I'm on a pool that's not changing the timestamp
 308 2014-01-02 03:05:08 <gmaxwell> nessence: 'changing' ... there isn't any need for changing, though many miners roll the time by 128 or 256 seconds. it's just that not everone agrees on the time.
 309 2014-01-02 03:05:17 <gmaxwell> (nor do they need to, nor would it be desirable to)
 310 2014-01-02 03:06:07 <gmaxwell> a serious enough notary service could even coordinate getting centeralized timestamps from several independent parties.
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 312 2014-01-02 03:06:59 <shesek> so, you think I should abandon the in-browser one-tx-per-timestamp thing? would it be terrible if btproof allowed that, but aggregated the timestamp it does server side? (it would do it server-side for users who request to have it done for them and for timestamp requests via the api)
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 314 2014-01-02 03:08:37 <nessence> I wonder how much incrementing the 576th bit of the header changes the probability of solving a block
 315 2014-01-02 03:09:11 <gmaxwell> meh, I think the in-browser one-tx-per is just kind of a trap, eventually transaction fees may make it unrelable unless you over pay for it anyways.
 316 2014-01-02 03:10:00 <gmaxwell> shesek: I think you should see if you can perhaps back your server up with petertodd's OT thing. better to have more thing colaborating on fewer timestamps.
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 320 2014-01-02 03:11:30 <shesek> yeah, I should definitely take a look at working with OT. back when I created btproof I didn't know the technical aspects of bitcoin much and dismissed it as too complicated :)
 321 2014-01-02 03:12:14 <shesek> I just think its much nicer to allow people to timestamp the data themselves directly to the blockchain, without being depended on a service that did it for them
 322 2014-01-02 03:13:18 <shesek> and with 1-of-2 its at least prunable... thought its obviously still not ideal
 323 2014-01-02 03:13:25 <gmaxwell> It is nicer, but not scalable. At least unless/until we integrate aggregation into the network, and then its scalable again.
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 325 2014-01-02 03:15:50 <shesek> won't pruning make it scalable too?
 326 2014-01-02 03:16:09 <shesek> well, at least more scalable
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 328 2014-01-02 03:17:01 <shesek> aggregating it is a lot more scalable obviously, but pruning should also make those one-tx-per-timestamp easier to handle
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 330 2014-01-02 03:17:41 <dredredre> Why is it that almost all addresses in recent transactions begin with 1? Does this suggest that whomever is generating these wallets is not using enough entropy?
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 332 2014-01-02 03:19:06 <shesek> dredredre, all addresses begin in 1
 333 2014-01-02 03:19:12 <shesek> well, all pay-to-pubkey-hash addresses, that is
 334 2014-01-02 03:19:26 <PRab> dredredre: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address. In general all basic addresses start with 1.
 335 2014-01-02 03:19:49 <dredredre> interesting.. thx
 336 2014-01-02 03:20:18 <gmaxwell> shesek: no, pruning doesn't make it scalable, it's still an O(N) forever cost for the whole network, it's just a cost with a lower constant factor.
 337 2014-01-02 03:20:25 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 338 2014-01-02 03:21:06 <justanotheruser> dredredre: becasue the version number for pubkey addresses is 00, which in bitcoin-defined base58 is 1
 339 2014-01-02 03:21:06 <gmaxwell> because not every full node needs to constantly store the data, its still must be widely available, however, because it's needed to validate blocks, bring up new nodes, and scan historical txn to rebuild wallets.
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 341 2014-01-02 03:27:33 <shesek> gmaxwell, yeah, I am aware of that, but its still a lot better than having everyone store it forever
 342 2014-01-02 03:28:40 <shesek> ugh, I'm not sure how to go about it. I think I might indeed just kill the in-browser option and force people to do it via the service and aggregate it
 343 2014-01-02 03:29:53 <bitanarchy> how do mastercoins exist?
 344 2014-01-02 03:30:30 <maaku> bitanarchy: #mastercoin
 345 2014-01-02 03:30:37 <nessence> bitanarchy: if enough people believe they exist, then they *might* exist https://blockchain.info/address/1EXoDusjGwvnjZUyKkxZ4UHEf77z6A5S4P
 346 2014-01-02 03:30:45 <nessence> #scam
 347 2014-01-02 03:32:58 <bitanarchy> nessence: are mastercoins coins that have gone through the exodus address?
 348 2014-01-02 03:33:28 <nessence> bitanarchy: yeah. better link if you're curious https://blockchain.info/address/1EXoDusjGwvnjZUyKkxZ4UHEf77z6A5S4P?filter=1
 349 2014-01-02 03:35:59 <nessence> gmaxwell: what would you think if the difficulty of H(header||pool_nonce) was inversely based on the count of input and output addresses from the previous block?
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 357 2014-01-02 03:51:08 <jacob___> hi
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 374 2014-01-02 04:39:29 <nessence> meh. they could pad the blocks with fake transactions :/
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 453 2014-01-02 07:04:55 <dredredre> am I correct in saying that each private key has 2 effective addresses 1 compressed and 1 uncompressed?
 454 2014-01-02 07:05:44 <Luke-Jr> 4
 455 2014-01-02 07:06:13 <Luke-Jr> compressed/uncompressed + pubkeyhash/scripthash
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 460 2014-01-02 07:13:40 <ahmedbodi_> Hello guys
 461 2014-01-02 07:14:19 <ahmedbodi_> Does anyone know if its possible for a pool to only send out its transactions
 462 2014-01-02 07:14:28 <ahmedbodi_> In one of its on mined blocks
 463 2014-01-02 07:14:32 mitz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 464 2014-01-02 07:14:42 <brisque> as in, transactions only belonging to them and nobody else?
 465 2014-01-02 07:14:43 <ahmedbodi_> So no tax fees need to be paid by users
 466 2014-01-02 07:14:55 <ahmedbodi_> Yes
 467 2014-01-02 07:15:12 <brisque> a pool can include absolutely anything they want, including public transactions if they choose.
 468 2014-01-02 07:15:12 <ahmedbodi_> Transactions made by the pool itself
 469 2014-01-02 07:15:36 <ahmedbodi_> I see, any ideas how?
 470 2014-01-02 07:15:53 <ahmedbodi_> I'd guess gbt would be needed to do so
 471 2014-01-02 07:16:04 <brisque> it depends on the software, I'm not in a position to give a walkthrough.
 472 2014-01-02 07:16:30 <ahmedbodi_> Ahh so it'd be dependant on the pool server
 473 2014-01-02 07:16:52 <brisque> yes, except for GPT and when using p2pool (to a certain extent)
 474 2014-01-02 07:17:25 <ahmedbodi_> What's makes it different when using get block template?
 475 2014-01-02 07:19:43 <brisque> GBT allows the mining client to choose their own transactions for inclusion, the pool has less control.
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 477 2014-01-02 07:20:24 <ahmedbodi_> Ahh okay
 478 2014-01-02 07:20:39 <ahmedbodi_> With stratum the miners don't have control
 479 2014-01-02 07:21:22 <ahmedbodi_> I don't use gbt anyway (yet) want to add it to stratum-mining tho
 480 2014-01-02 07:21:54 <brisque> yes, with stratum the mining clients are completely blind as to what they are mining on.
 481 2014-01-02 07:22:16 <ahmedbodi_> Okay cool
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 483 2014-01-02 07:22:43 <ahmedbodi_> So on the pool end I'd need to make stratum include the pools own transactions?
 484 2014-01-02 07:23:32 <brisque> yes, it's completely up to the poolserver as to what transactions they include in the block header that is presented to the stratum miners.
 485 2014-01-02 07:24:13 <ahmedbodi_> Alright cool do u know if anyone done it so far
 486 2014-01-02 07:26:17 <brisque> most pools seem to have their own logic for inclusion. some notably include none, where some include a small number of transactions even with long block spacing. we can assume they already do what you are talking about. Eligius does specifically allow submission of unusual transactions.
 487 2014-01-02 07:27:02 <ahmedbodi_> Okay
 488 2014-01-02 07:27:34 <ahmedbodi_> So in that they are likely to include their own transactions so fees don't need to be paid?
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 492 2014-01-02 07:29:17 <brisque> I don't know if they do, but it is technically possible. a large pool could even team up with a company to process their 0 fee transactions for a set monthly sum if they wanted to. the transaction selection process is completely up to the person creating the blocks.
 493 2014-01-02 07:29:51 <brisque> the only rules really are that the transactions must be valid, and the coinbase transaction must contain unique data.
 494 2014-01-02 07:29:59 mitz has joined
 495 2014-01-02 07:30:17 <ahmedbodi_> Alright thanks I guess, I'll look into adding it :)
 496 2014-01-02 07:31:09 <atian> brisque: Eligius used to have partnership with MtGox to include free transactions :)
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 498 2014-01-02 07:32:28 <brisque> atian: oh neat, I wasn't aware of that.
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 591 2014-01-02 09:35:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|9:00:43 <dredredre> am I correct in saying that each private key has 2 effective addresses 1 compressed and 1 uncompressed?
 592 2014-01-02 09:35:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|An ECDSA private key, yes.
 593 2014-01-02 09:36:02 user500 has joined
 594 2014-01-02 09:36:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|A Bitcoin private key, no
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 596 2014-01-02 09:40:02 <shesek> how so? what's the distinction you're making between the two?
 597 2014-01-02 09:40:26 forrestv has joined
 598 2014-01-02 09:40:30 <brisque> a bitcoin private key contains an identifier of what type it is, when it's in the WIF format.
 599 2014-01-02 09:40:53 <shesek> yes, the 0x01 flag, but he's saying it the other way around
 600 2014-01-02 09:41:42 <brisque> he's saying that a bitcoin private key isn't ambiguous, which it isn't. the version byte tells me if it's a compressed point or not.
 601 2014-01-02 09:42:13 <sipa> comboy: any
 602 2014-01-02 09:42:41 <shesek> ah, right. I misunderstood what michagogo was saying.
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 604 2014-01-02 09:42:47 <brisque> 0x01 is a bitcoin address anyway. the private keys have a different version byte
 605 2014-01-02 09:42:50 mitz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 606 2014-01-02 09:42:54 <BlueMatt> why did fortune just spit out "I smell a wumpus."?
 607 2014-01-02 09:42:56 forrestv has joined
 608 2014-01-02 09:43:07 <BlueMatt> oh, wumpus isnt here :(
 609 2014-01-02 09:46:16 <sipa> shesek: bitcoin pay to pubkeyhash addresses have 0x00 as version byte
 610 2014-01-02 09:46:39 <sipa> and private keys use 0x80
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 612 2014-01-02 09:47:51 <shesek> I wasn't talking about the version byte, I was referring to the 0x01 flag that's appended to the end of private key to indicate their corresponding pubkey should be compressed
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 614 2014-01-02 09:49:36 <sipa> ooh!
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 617 2014-01-02 09:49:53 <sipa> sorry, didn't read everything
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 621 2014-01-02 09:52:07 <shesek> (which, btw, makes compressed public keys and private keys of the exact same length, which is somewhat annoying :\)
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 623 2014-01-02 09:53:00 <shesek> (makes it hard to tell them apart if you just have a byte array, which forced me to do some refactoring when I added support for compressed keys in bitrated)
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 626 2014-01-02 09:57:45 <sipa> huh?
 627 2014-01-02 09:58:15 <sipa> ah, actual public keys, not addresses
 628 2014-01-02 09:58:18 <sipa> right
 629 2014-01-02 09:58:57 <shesek> yeah, compressed public keys are 33 bytes, and private keys are normally 32 but with the flag they're also 33
 630 2014-01-02 10:00:00 <shesek> I was just passing around byte arrays and checking their length to determine what they are, supporting compressed keys forced me to wrap that in an object that also indicates the type
 631 2014-01-02 10:00:19 <shesek> but its probably better that way anyway
 632 2014-01-02 10:00:21 <sipa> sounds like the right approach anyway
 633 2014-01-02 10:00:26 d34th has joined
 634 2014-01-02 10:01:27 <shesek> yeah... I also added some utility methods on that object along the way, which was also helpful
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 637 2014-01-02 10:01:39 <shesek> should've probably done it like that to begin with
 638 2014-01-02 10:02:29 <shesek> it was just super annoying having to rewrite anything that deals with public/private keys throughout all the code, heh
 639 2014-01-02 10:02:54 debiantoruser has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 640 2014-01-02 10:05:11 <sipa> and what program is this?
 641 2014-01-02 10:06:10 roconnor__ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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 643 2014-01-02 10:06:17 <shesek> an interface for multi-signature transactions (specifically for arbitration, not general purpose) I released recently
 644 2014-01-02 10:06:17 debiantoruser has joined
 645 2014-01-02 10:06:21 <shesek> www.bitrated.com
 646 2014-01-02 10:06:42 <sipa> ah nice
 647 2014-01-02 10:08:45 <CodeShark> shesek, could bitrated support this? https://github.com/CodeShark/bips/blob/master/bip-n1.mediawiki
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 655 2014-01-02 10:18:21 <shesek> CodeShark, I'm not quite sure I understand the advantage of that
 656 2014-01-02 10:19:20 <shesek> currently, the party that initiates the transaction sends a partially-signed transaction w/o a placeholder
 657 2014-01-02 10:19:58 <shesek> all parties already know the pubkeys in the multisig and already has the redeem script
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 659 2014-01-02 10:20:56 <shesek> its trivial to figure out on the receiving end where the signature should go
 660 2014-01-02 10:22:53 <CodeShark> could you add placeholders? it would make your site compatible with my tools
 661 2014-01-02 10:23:39 <shesek> but incompatible with bitcoind :-\
 662 2014-01-02 10:23:46 <CodeShark> howso?
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 664 2014-01-02 10:24:15 <CodeShark> bitcoind won't relay partially signed transactions anyhow - and decoderawtransaction works just fine with placeholders
 665 2014-01-02 10:24:37 <CodeShark> or hmm
 666 2014-01-02 10:24:49 <CodeShark> you're using a bitcoind wallet...
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 668 2014-01-02 10:25:00 <shesek> it won't relay them, but you can sign partially signed transaction
 669 2014-01-02 10:25:25 <CodeShark> right - the bitcoind approach doesn't really work for the general case, which is why I wrote txbuilder in the first place
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 672 2014-01-02 10:27:04 <shesek> bitcoind (or the bitcoin network, really) doesn't help at all with distributing partially-signed transactions
 673 2014-01-02 10:27:28 <shesek> but bitcoind does handle signing them just fine
 674 2014-01-02 10:27:40 <CodeShark> only if you know the redeemscript a priori
 675 2014-01-02 10:27:43 <CodeShark> which is not the general case
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 677 2014-01-02 10:29:43 <shesek> well, someone has to know it, even with your BIP the first one to create the transaction needs to know it
 678 2014-01-02 10:30:15 <shesek> but its also the same with regular partially signed transaction w/o placeholders, the redeem script is still there
 679 2014-01-02 10:31:32 <CodeShark> also, in a coinjoin-type transaction, there's no way generally for other parties to verify the signatures without the use of placeholders and including the redeemscripts in the inputs
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 681 2014-01-02 10:31:43 <shesek> also, I would imagine people would usually know the redeem script (or, at least, the pubkeys that are used for the multisig, which you can `addmultisigaddress` to bitcoind which allows it to determine the script on its own)
 682 2014-01-02 10:32:06 <CodeShark> knowing the pubkeys isn't enough - you also have to know the permutation
 683 2014-01-02 10:32:36 <CodeShark> otherwise you have to brute force through them all until you find the correct one (unless you enforce a standard, like pubkey sorting)
 684 2014-01-02 10:32:46 <shesek> permutation?
 685 2014-01-02 10:32:54 <CodeShark> yes, the order of the pubkeys matters
 686 2014-01-02 10:32:55 <shesek> you mean their order? (I'm not a native english speaker)
 687 2014-01-02 10:32:58 <CodeShark> yes
 688 2014-01-02 10:33:20 <shesek> oh, right. I had no idea what that word means :)
 689 2014-01-02 10:33:44 <shesek> well, yes, you're right, you have to know the pubkeys and their order
 690 2014-01-02 10:34:12 <shesek> in bitrated I indeed sort them before creating the multisig script
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 692 2014-01-02 10:35:08 <shesek> but in both cases, the first one to create the partial transaction has to know the order
 693 2014-01-02 10:35:11 <CodeShark> should probably write a BIP for pubkey sorting…but it will require at least a soft fork
 694 2014-01-02 10:36:12 <CodeShark> then there's the case of dealing with more than two other parties - where each needs to be able to add another signature
 695 2014-01-02 10:36:14 <shesek> I think it could be enough to just make addmultisigaddress/createmultisig order them by default, with a flag that tells it not to
 696 2014-01-02 10:36:23 <shesek> and standardize on all the clients doing so
 697 2014-01-02 10:36:35 <CodeShark> that's not a bad start
 698 2014-01-02 10:40:06 <shesek> I'm still not sure what's the purpose of the placeholder - doesn't it just offload the need to determine where new signatures should go from the receiver to the sender?
 699 2014-01-02 10:40:33 giustoXricordarl has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 700 2014-01-02 10:41:37 <shesek> also, have you seen BIP 10?
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 721 2014-01-02 11:15:48 <CodeShark> not sure what you mean by receiver and sender - if you're talking about the sender of bitcoins, the sender only needs to know the script hash.
 722 2014-01-02 11:16:47 <CodeShark> if you're talking about this in the context of a signature request protocol, yes, the one requesting the signature has to determine where the signature should go
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 728 2014-01-02 11:19:18 <CodeShark> also, BIP0010 was created before BIP0016, which makes it somewhat dated
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 736 2014-01-02 11:29:10 <netg> what "services" : "00000001" vs. "services" : "00000000" when reading "bitcoind getpeerinfo"?
 737 2014-01-02 11:32:06 <sipa> bit 1 means it's a NODE_NETWORK
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 739 2014-01-02 11:32:20 <sipa> i.e., one that relays blocks and transactions, and can be queried for older blocks
 740 2014-01-02 11:32:25 <sipa> (= a full node)
 741 2014-01-02 11:32:33 <sipa> 0's are likely BitcoinJ wallets
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 743 2014-01-02 11:33:34 <netg> thank you sipa and sorry for mentioned this here, i want to ask in #bitcoin, sorry
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 756 2014-01-02 11:53:07 <comboy> sipa: thx, I wonder if there's any risk of even a single node spamming with a lot of fake addrs with some very recent time, I guess it would a least be able to fake number on things like getaddr.bitnodes.io
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 763 2014-01-02 11:58:15 <sipa> comboy: don't they at least try to connect to peers?
 764 2014-01-02 11:58:26 <sipa> my crawler/seeder does
 765 2014-01-02 12:00:36 <comboy> sipa: I think they do but the number seems total "alive" addrs, I doubt they would be able to make connection with that many nodes
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 769 2014-01-02 12:03:22 <comboy> sipa: do you have stats somewhere from this crawler? I'm playing with one miself, but last ~24h I was only able to connect to like ~20k hosts (not listening, just making connections) (I can paste user agent distribution if somebody is interested)
 770 2014-01-02 12:03:39 <sipa> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/seeds.txt
 771 2014-01-02 12:04:11 <comboy> ah, right, crawler for seed nodes
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 773 2014-01-02 12:04:43 <sipa> well, it's just a crawler :)
 774 2014-01-02 12:07:52 <comboy> more ipv6 than I imagined
 775 2014-01-02 12:08:22 <sipa> and onion!
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 778 2014-01-02 12:12:05 <comboy> yeah, that's nice to see, I also wonder hov many people have dynamic ips, but I guess not that many among those accepting connections
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 781 2014-01-02 12:16:52 <comboy> sa anyway, I make a node, and respond to getaddr or send random addrs messages with !M? (is there any limit?) fake ips, adding some nice recent time to them, do you think it could do harm since they are propagated without checking?
 782 2014-01-02 12:17:04 <comboy> *1M
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 786 2014-01-02 12:18:41 <Dagger> 3.5% v6, but of that 75% is Teredo, so only 0.85% proper v6 overall
 787 2014-01-02 12:19:24 <Dagger> although I'd expect a bigger fraction of the v6 to be static than of the v4, so that will be weighing against it
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 792 2014-01-02 12:26:57 <Dagger> and indeed, 1.7% is proper v6 if I only consider the first 53000 nodes (i.e. those with a 30d uptime of greater than 1%)
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 795 2014-01-02 12:27:59 <comboy> itshappening.gif
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 799 2014-01-02 12:29:11 <brisque> IPV6 just means a lot more beef cake babe for everybody.
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 801 2014-01-02 12:30:44 <brisque> heh, first ipv6 node I saw on the list was "cafe". not too far off.
 802 2014-01-02 12:30:57 <brisque> [2a01:4f8:200:23d1::dead:beef]:8333
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 804 2014-01-02 12:32:51 <Dagger> only 8 using beef, cafe and/or dead
 805 2014-01-02 12:33:11 <Dagger> nobody using babe or cake
 806 2014-01-02 12:33:29 <brisque> I'm extremely disappointed.
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 830 2014-01-02 13:05:23 <Hans-Martin> doing cake with base-16 might be challenging, though.
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 834 2014-01-02 13:11:29 <Dagger> ...probably why I didn't find anybody using it...
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 846 2014-01-02 13:22:20 LobsterMan has joined
 847 2014-01-02 13:22:42 <LobsterMan> quick question...if i set the transaction fee to 0.00005 will that significantly negatively affect my chances of getting accepted in any given block?
 848 2014-01-02 13:23:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|LobsterMan: It will be treated as a 0-fee transaction in most cases
 849 2014-01-02 13:24:31 <LobsterMan> so i should not use less than .0001?
 850 2014-01-02 13:24:43 <LobsterMan> because my transactions where i pay no fee sometimes take an hour or more to get accepted
 851 2014-01-02 13:24:48 <LobsterMan> confirmed*
 852 2014-01-02 13:24:59 <sipa> iirc, only values below 0.00001 per kilobyte are treated as 0
 853 2014-01-02 13:25:12 <LobsterMan> hmm
 854 2014-01-02 13:25:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|LobsterMan: #bitcoin-dev isn't really the right place for this
 855 2014-01-02 13:25:33 <LobsterMan> someone told me i should ask here O_o
 856 2014-01-02 13:25:38 <LobsterMan> where is the best place to ask?
 857 2014-01-02 13:25:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|#bitcoin
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 860 2014-01-02 13:26:23 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|looks quizzically at the topic
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 862 2014-01-02 13:26:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"#bitcoin-dev: Development of the Bitcoin"
 863 2014-01-02 13:27:03 <LobsterMan> ok, well thanks for the assistance anyway :P
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 874 2014-01-02 13:45:29 <shesek> I'm wondering... if you turn a bitcoin address to, say, base 50,000, where each "character" is a word (probably based on the 50,000 most common words)
 875 2014-01-02 13:45:39 <shesek> how long would that be? would it be short enough to be memorable?
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 877 2014-01-02 13:48:03 nightlingo has joined
 878 2014-01-02 13:48:13 <nightlingo> hello guys!   I've read in the bitcoin wiki page that bitcoind should not be used to build a scalable solution when handling thousands of bitcoin addresses. What is the alternative? Thanks
 879 2014-01-02 13:50:27 <brisque> nightlingo: bit of a sticky one, there's not that much in the way of alternatives.
 880 2014-01-02 13:51:41 <nightlingo> brisque: so, to get this straight, when you make a query to bitcoind, it goes through all the transactions up to this point in order to give you the answer?
 881 2014-01-02 13:52:01 <nightlingo> *a balance query
 882 2014-01-02 13:52:01 <brisque> nightlingo: well no, it keeps a cache of most things
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 884 2014-01-02 13:52:42 <brisque> nightlingo: for transactions in your wallet it is looking up just the very tip of the blockchain which is kept in memory. you can't query for transactions that are not your own without building a separate optional index.
 885 2014-01-02 13:53:16 <nightlingo> brisque: I am talking about accounts
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 887 2014-01-02 13:53:54 <brisque> nightlingo: if you are keeping accounts for every one of your services users, that's generally extremely ill advised. they aren't designed for that.
 888 2014-01-02 13:54:39 <nightlingo> brisque: so how would you do that?
 889 2014-01-02 13:55:09 <brisque> nightlingo: most services that I've seen or spoken to keep an external balance sheet, using the "notify" command to push updates from the bitcoin daemon back to whatever is keeping the balance database.
 890 2014-01-02 13:55:45 <brisque> nightlingo: bitcoind can run a command every time a new block is seen on the network, and you can use this to trigger updates of individual external balances and confirmation amounts.
 891 2014-01-02 13:56:30 <nightlingo>  brisque: so they don't keep accounts in bitcoind at all? they just have one wallet and simply generate new addresses in that wallet?
 892 2014-01-02 13:57:11 <nightlingo> brisque: that's cool actually thanks!  I didn't know about the notify command
 893 2014-01-02 13:57:45 <brisque> nightlingo: you might want to check up with some other people too, but that is how I've seen it done. by generating a new receiving address for every user you can determine who has sent what into your shared wallet, and update your balances when funds come into each individually.
 894 2014-01-02 13:58:25 <brisque> nightlingo: the command is "-blocknotify", there's some more information on the wiki too regarding getting it to pass the block hash onto your updating script as well.
 895 2014-01-02 13:58:54 <nightlingo> that's awesome man thanks!
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 901 2014-01-02 13:59:56 <brisque> there's -txnotify as well, but you should never allow your users to spend or use 0 confirmation funds.
 902 2014-01-02 14:00:15 <shesek> apparently its not very practical... using 100,000 words gives you ~13 words to represent an address
 903 2014-01-02 14:01:06 <shesek> 1m words lowers that to ~10 words, which still isn't practical :-\
 904 2014-01-02 14:01:11 <brisque> shesek: use a big enough dictionary and you can take that down to one word per address.
 905 2014-01-02 14:01:24 <sipa> why would you want words to represent an address...?
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 907 2014-01-02 14:01:43 <sipa> anything that requires users to see or pass along addresses is broken imho
 908 2014-01-02 14:01:48 <shesek> even with 100k, a lot of words aren't commonly used
 909 2014-01-02 14:02:00 <brisque> sipa: I think it's a continuation of talking about NXT before, coming up with bad ideas rather than good ones.
 910 2014-01-02 14:02:18 <shesek> I dunno, just thought it could be a cool way to represent addresses in a way that can be remembered/spoken
 911 2014-01-02 14:02:45 <brisque> you sort of don't want to do that anyway. addresses are for the most part single use
 912 2014-01-02 14:02:46 <shesek> if it were like 5-6 words with a list of words that are actually common, it could've been cool
 913 2014-01-02 14:03:09 <sipa> why would you want to remember an address in the first place?
 914 2014-01-02 14:03:24 <sipa> they're not intended to be reused
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 917 2014-01-02 14:04:12 <shesek> not re-using addresses doesn't mean that its useless to have a more convenient way to remember/communicate them
 918 2014-01-02 14:04:36 <shesek> like, when I'm taking addresses from my offline machine, I copy them by hand
 919 2014-01-02 14:04:38 <brisque> addresses already have checksums so you can't make mistakes when communicating them
 920 2014-01-02 14:04:53 <brisque> your client won't accept an address with a typo in it
 921 2014-01-02 14:04:54 <sipa> mhmm
 922 2014-01-02 14:05:13 <sipa> i think any effort that tries to simplify usage of addresses fails to address the real issue
 923 2014-01-02 14:05:15 <shesek> I know you can't make mistakes (or, rather, its extremely unlikely to typo a valid address), but its still useful to have a memorable form for them
 924 2014-01-02 14:05:23 <sipa> we shouldn't be calling them address, and they shouldn't be visible
 925 2014-01-02 14:05:47 <sipa> unfortunately much of the ecosystem has developed around the opposite idea
 926 2014-01-02 14:05:57 <shesek> the payment protocol won't be suitable for every use case
 927 2014-01-02 14:06:04 <brisque> sipa: if anything, we need significantly more abstraction in the wallet.
 928 2014-01-02 14:06:17 <sipa> shesek: then the payment protocol needs to be improved :)
 929 2014-01-02 14:06:21 <brisque> sipa: users importing and playing with private keys is scary.
 930 2014-01-02 14:06:27 <sipa> brisque: i agree
 931 2014-01-02 14:06:32 <shesek> like the one I just gave - if I generate a key pair on an offline machine, copying the address is the most sensible way to send funds to it
 932 2014-01-02 14:06:58 <shesek> I can't use any payment protocol, because its not really connected to any network
 933 2014-01-02 14:07:11 <shesek> and I still see addresses being used for development funds on github and such
 934 2014-01-02 14:07:24 <brisque> sipa: a few days back I was attempting to convince a user that he didn't need to "clean up" his wallet.dat by removing private keys from it. a few kilobytes verses the gigabytes of blocks and indexes.
 935 2014-01-02 14:07:31 <shesek> setting up a payment server to receive some donations is an overkill imho
 936 2014-01-02 14:07:40 <sipa> you can copy the bip32 neutered key, import the wallet watch-only on an online machine, and generate address using that one
 937 2014-01-02 14:07:59 <sipa> i'm not talking about now, by the way
 938 2014-01-02 14:08:17 <sipa> just about future efforts to improve ease of use for addresses
 939 2014-01-02 14:09:40 <shesek> I personally think using addresses directly still have some use-cases where its the best option, regardless of how awesome the payment protocol is :P
 940 2014-01-02 14:09:59 <sipa> for anonymous donations, perhaps
 941 2014-01-02 14:10:06 <sipa> for other things, unsure
 942 2014-01-02 14:10:47 <shesek> how about multi-signature and other p2sh addresses?
 943 2014-01-02 14:11:12 GMP has joined
 944 2014-01-02 14:11:13 <shesek> some transactions aren't even paid to someone that should give you an address, like OP_RETURN transactions
 945 2014-01-02 14:11:31 <sipa> i hate OP_RETURN, but it's just the least harmful of all alternatives
 946 2014-01-02 14:12:27 <sipa> and not sure what you mean... you're always paying someone (perhaps yourself)
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 948 2014-01-02 14:12:59 <shesek> OP_RETURN is unspendable/prunable, you aren't really paying to anyone
 949 2014-01-02 14:13:28 <shesek> and paying yourself is another case where it doesn't make sense for the payment protocol to replace addresses
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 951 2014-01-02 14:13:52 <sipa> yes, that's just abusive data storage attached to a transaction... but where does the transaction itself go?
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 953 2014-01-02 14:14:07 <sipa> s/transaction/payment/
 954 2014-01-02 14:14:43 <shesek> if I understand correctly, its a zero-value output with the unspendable OP_RETURN as its script
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 956 2014-01-02 14:14:50 <sipa> yes
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 959 2014-01-02 14:14:56 <shesek> so the transaction isn't really going anywhere
 960 2014-01-02 14:14:59 Neozonz is now known as Dsic!uid16098@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yxhkhzsrllsaioib|Neozonz|Disc
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 962 2014-01-02 14:15:04 <sipa> well it's not the whole transaction
 963 2014-01-02 14:15:06 <shesek> or at least that output is not going anywhere
 964 2014-01-02 14:15:15 <sipa> it's an additional output to attach data to the transaction
 965 2014-01-02 14:15:19 Neozonz is now known as Disc!uid16098@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yxhkhzsrllsaioib|neozonz
 966 2014-01-02 14:15:26 <sipa> the payment protocol works with files too, by the way - you can have a payment request stored in a file, and import it in a client to pay it
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 968 2014-01-02 14:15:45 <shesek> for some use cases, but for others it could be the only output (like for creating trusted timestamps)
 969 2014-01-02 14:15:53 owowo has joined
 970 2014-01-02 14:15:53 <shesek> (well, assuming you don't have change)
 971 2014-01-02 14:16:03 <sipa> i still consider it abuse :)
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 973 2014-01-02 14:17:20 <shesek> well, possibly... but its still a case the payment protocol won't resolve (though its not really an address, now that I think about it)
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 975 2014-01-02 14:18:24 <sipa> yes, that's what i mean
 976 2014-01-02 14:18:36 <shesek> how about multisig addresses? would you have one of the parties generate the address on its own and give it as part of the payment request?
 977 2014-01-02 14:18:54 <sipa> doesn't matter
 978 2014-01-02 14:19:04 <sipa> you can get it from anyone
 979 2014-01-02 14:19:12 <shesek> the other parties need to independently verify the address is correct somehow
 980 2014-01-02 14:19:24 <sipa> but even multisig addresses are not intended from reuse
 981 2014-01-02 14:19:41 <sipa> so you need some synchronized way of generating addresses for payments to it
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 984 2014-01-02 14:20:31 <sipa> who does that is irrelevant from the point of view of the payer
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 986 2014-01-02 14:20:46 <sipa> (in fact, the payer shouldn't even know/care that he's paying to a multisig address)
 987 2014-01-02 14:21:39 <sipa> there are two very different issues here: generation of the address, and getting it in a trustable way to the sender
 988 2014-01-02 14:21:51 nessence is now known as nessafk
 989 2014-01-02 14:21:59 <shesek> if its a multi-signature used for arbitration, shouldn't he be able to confirm that his and the trusted third party public keys are in that multisig?
 990 2014-01-02 14:22:31 <sipa> if he knows the full script, it's obvious
 991 2014-01-02 14:23:12 <sipa> so yes, if that is necessary you need to agree on a script, and then convert it to an address yourself
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 993 2014-01-02 14:23:38 <sipa> (but that's only because the sender is also a receiver, not because he's a sender on itself)
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 997 2014-01-02 14:25:09 <shesek> all I'm saying... I think addresses still have their place, thought it could be cool to represent them as words, looks like its not possible (takes way too many words)
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 999 2014-01-02 14:25:54 <Belxjander> Shesek: the only way it would work is to key strings based off a word using some kind of vector math
1000 2014-01-02 14:25:55 <shesek> ah damn it, I think my cat got stuck on a tree again... bbl
1001 2014-01-02 14:25:56 <sipa> i still believe that any usage where a human needs to see an address, is the wrong approeach
1002 2014-01-02 14:26:14 <Belxjander> but you would need the "word key" and the vector to rebuild the data correctly
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1005 2014-01-02 14:27:59 <shesek> blah... stupid cat, why does he keep climbing it when he knows he can't get down? :\
1006 2014-01-02 14:28:23 <shesek> Belxjander, its actually much simpler than that - I hacked a base58 implementation to use an array of words as its "characters" instead of the regular characters
1007 2014-01-02 14:28:35 <shesek> and changed it to use base 50,000
1008 2014-01-02 14:28:37 drayah has joined
1009 2014-01-02 14:29:09 <shesek> it worked just fine, but it ends up really long
1010 2014-01-02 14:29:35 <shesek> sipa, how about confirming identities with message signatures?
1011 2014-01-02 14:29:37 <Belxjander> ahh right
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1013 2014-01-02 14:29:53 <sipa> shesek: i should clarify
1014 2014-01-02 14:30:15 <sipa> i consider "key id" and "address" two different things; the first is a reference to a key, the second is a destination of money
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1016 2014-01-02 14:30:30 <sipa> unfortunately, we've grown to confuse them pretty much everywhere
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1018 2014-01-02 14:31:01 <sipa> if you're confirming an identity, it has nothing to do with an address anymore, you're just using a bitcoin key for some other purpose
1019 2014-01-02 14:31:05 <Belxjander> sipa: Identification by a recognised symbology?
1020 2014-01-02 14:31:18 <shesek> yeah, it definitely makes sense to make that distinction
1021 2014-01-02 14:31:22 <sipa> (for which also better solutions may exist, but it's a different discussion)
1022 2014-01-02 14:32:06 <shesek> and I do agree that the addresses concept is somewhat flawed, and that the payment protocol is much better for almost all cases
1023 2014-01-02 14:33:12 <sipa> i'm pretty sure that static addresses will remain, and there will be uses for which alternatives barely provide any advantages (anonymous donations, for example)
1024 2014-01-02 14:33:14 <shesek> here's another use case for my idea - make pubkeys used for signing memorable
1025 2014-01-02 14:33:33 <shesek> so people can easily defect when they're changed
1026 2014-01-02 14:33:36 <brisque> pubkeys are huge compared with addresses.
1027 2014-01-02 14:33:46 <sipa> 30% larger
1028 2014-01-02 14:33:58 <shesek> well, not the actual pubkeys, also a hash of them
1029 2014-01-02 14:34:12 <sipa> not sure what you mean?
1030 2014-01-02 14:34:15 <brisque> a pubkey hash is just the address
1031 2014-01-02 14:34:25 <sipa> s/address/key id/
1032 2014-01-02 14:34:26 <sipa> :)
1033 2014-01-02 14:34:38 <sipa> if you're using it as a txout script template, it is an address
1034 2014-01-02 14:35:08 <brisque> sipa: to me "key ID" implies it's unique and perminant too
1035 2014-01-02 14:35:16 <brisque> permanent.
1036 2014-01-02 14:35:26 <sipa> it is unique and permanent
1037 2014-01-02 14:35:29 <shesek> brisque, for that purpose, it makes sense to use a shorter hash than addresses
1038 2014-01-02 14:35:37 <sipa> but address implies it's a unique and permanent _destination_
1039 2014-01-02 14:35:48 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1040 2014-01-02 14:35:59 <shesek> like maybe, 15 first bytes + 4 bytes checksum
1041 2014-01-02 14:36:01 <brisque> an address isn't permanent to a user though. it's one off, throwaway
1042 2014-01-02 14:36:24 <shesek> should make the words short enough to be memorable
1043 2014-01-02 14:36:53 <sipa> brisque: "address" for me is a destination of money; there are imho 3 types of addresses: send-to-pubkeyhash (aka send to key id), send-to-scripthash (aka p2sh) and send-to-url (payment protocol)
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1046 2014-01-02 14:37:19 <sipa> and the problem is that the first are considered an address rather than a protocol implementation detail
1047 2014-01-02 14:37:57 <sipa> a key id is the hash of a public key, and can be used as an address, but can be used for other things too (message signatures, for example)
1048 2014-01-02 14:38:09 <brisque> I follow.
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1050 2014-01-02 14:38:53 <sipa> and yes, the key ids used inside transactions should be trowaway
1051 2014-01-02 14:39:24 <sipa> but the word 'address' implies that it is some permanent designation of a destination for money
1052 2014-01-02 14:39:46 <brisque> indeed. "receiving address" is a nice compromise in my mind.
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1054 2014-01-02 14:39:55 <shesek> seems like 10 bytes + 2 checksum bytes, with 50000 words, would end up as ~6 words, which seems reasonable to memorize
1055 2014-01-02 14:40:03 <brisque> it makes it clear that a "sending address" doesn't exist.
1056 2014-01-02 14:40:20 <sipa> even better: just start using URLs as addresses
1057 2014-01-02 14:40:51 <shesek> this could be a cool way to memorize key ids used for message signature and ensure the key wasn't replaced
1058 2014-01-02 14:41:11 <sipa> but they're the destinations of payments (high-level concept of transfer of money between entities), rather than destination of lowlevel bitcoin transactions
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1065 2014-01-02 14:42:28 <sipa> if i'd create an altcoin now, it would be p2sh at the protocol level, and payment-protocol-only on the client level :)
1066 2014-01-02 14:43:06 nessafk_ is now known as nessence
1067 2014-01-02 14:43:40 <shesek> how do regular users get casual payments? setup their own payment server?
1068 2014-01-02 14:44:01 <sipa> yes
1069 2014-01-02 14:44:14 <sipa> how do you get e-mail?
1070 2014-01-02 14:44:34 <shesek> I trust email to third-party providers, as most people do
1071 2014-01-02 14:44:45 <shesek> if anyone had to setup their own email servers, email wouldn't have gotten very far
1072 2014-01-02 14:44:52 <brisque> in that scenario you end up with someone like google controlling the vast portion of payments
1073 2014-01-02 14:45:10 <sipa> brisque: is that different from now, with blockchain.info controller the vast portion of wallets? :)
1074 2014-01-02 14:45:12 <shesek> people could use services that offer payment-server-as-a-service
1075 2014-01-02 14:45:40 <brisque> sipa: I suppose not.
1076 2014-01-02 14:45:45 <shesek> but its something that I personally wouldn't do
1077 2014-01-02 14:45:59 <shesek> and I think its much more likely that everyone would end up on cloud wallets when setting up a payment server is required
1078 2014-01-02 14:46:01 <sipa> and people should absolutely be able to run their own payment server
1079 2014-01-02 14:46:29 <shesek> people don't even bother installing a desktop client now and choose to use web interface instead
1080 2014-01-02 14:46:31 t7 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1081 2014-01-02 14:46:50 <shesek> you think they would pay for a server and setup their own payment system on it?
1082 2014-01-02 14:46:50 <sipa> btw, payment server doesn't mean they have your wallet
1083 2014-01-02 14:47:05 <shesek> payment server means they can send whatever addresses they want, tho
1084 2014-01-02 14:47:20 <sipa> and you can trivially check whether they're doing that
1085 2014-01-02 14:47:26 <sipa> but yes, it requires trust
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1089 2014-01-02 14:49:41 <nightlingo> what is the "best block" ? is it the newest block in the network?
1090 2014-01-02 14:49:54 <brisque> the most difficult chain.
1091 2014-01-02 14:49:59 <sipa> nightlingo: it's the best block your client knows about
1092 2014-01-02 14:50:07 <sipa> "the newest block in the network" is not well-defined
1093 2014-01-02 14:50:08 <brisque> *not* the highest block.
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1095 2014-01-02 14:50:26 <nightlingo> so it's the newest block my client knows about?
1096 2014-01-02 14:50:38 <brisque> no, it's the best and most difficult to create block
1097 2014-01-02 14:50:47 <nightlingo> what does "best" mean?
1098 2014-01-02 14:50:53 <sipa> or rather, it's the tip of the (valid) block chain with the most proof-of-work your client knows about
1099 2014-01-02 14:51:10 <brisque> nightlingo: the most difficult to create, cumulatively speaking from all the way from the genesis block.
1100 2014-01-02 14:51:19 <nightlingo> oh ok
1101 2014-01-02 14:51:20 <sipa> most proof-of-work, and not invalid
1102 2014-01-02 14:51:54 <nightlingo> If I wanted to be up-to-date with the latest transactions, would it be ok if I monitor the best block?
1103 2014-01-02 14:52:09 <sipa> shesek: btw, it could also mean that wallet clients have a built-in trivial payment server, which only supports payment-requests-as-files
1104 2014-01-02 14:52:23 <brisque> the "best" block is where the truth lies, at least from the perspective of your client
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1107 2014-01-02 14:52:47 <shesek> sipa, I was thinking the other day about an alternative scheme where people would publish their master public key and people sending payments to them would create a random "receipt number" (like 10-15 random bytes), derive an address from the master pubkey with that receipt, pay to that, and than send the receipt as a proof of payment
1108 2014-01-02 14:52:53 <nightlingo> ok cool thanks
1109 2014-01-02 14:53:00 <shesek> was something like that ever suggested?
1110 2014-01-02 14:53:07 <sipa> shesek: what advantage does that have?
1111 2014-01-02 14:53:24 <sipa> shesek: if you're publishing your master public key, you're giving up the same privacy as you'd lose with address reuse
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1113 2014-01-02 14:53:39 <shesek> prevents address reuse without having to communicate before every payment
1114 2014-01-02 14:53:40 <sipa> (though the bar to track it is harder)
1115 2014-01-02 14:53:57 <shesek> how so? without knowing the recipes, it should be quite impossible to find that
1116 2014-01-02 14:54:17 <sipa> ah, you're sending the recipe number along, i see
1117 2014-01-02 14:54:17 <shesek> you can make them as large as you want... if 10-15 isn't enough, it could even be 100-200 bytes with no real added cost
1118 2014-01-02 14:54:44 <sipa> in what scenario can you send a receipt number back, but not request something?
1119 2014-01-02 14:54:59 <shesek> you publish your master once, and every time I want to pay you I derive an address with a random receipt and send you that receipt over some channel
1120 2014-01-02 14:55:06 home_jg is now known as jgarzik
1121 2014-01-02 14:55:19 <sipa> why couldn't you request the address through the same channel?
1122 2014-01-02 14:55:27 <brisque> shesek: nothing stops me from generating the same keys and finding every transaction you've ever made in that model
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1124 2014-01-02 14:55:51 <sipa> brisque: not if you can't observe or bruteforce the receipt ids
1125 2014-01-02 14:55:54 <shesek> brisque, except that there are a lot of them... nothing stops me from generating every private key until I find the one to your address
1126 2014-01-02 14:56:15 <brisque> sipa: in the model of transmitting an MPK you can
1127 2014-01-02 14:56:39 <sipa> brisque: if the receipt ids are 160 bit, you can't iterate them :)
1128 2014-01-02 14:56:54 <sipa> even if the mpk the actual keys are derived from is public
1129 2014-01-02 14:56:56 <shesek> sipa, it requires both parties being active for the transaction, the receipt thing only requires the payer to be active
1130 2014-01-02 14:57:11 <shesek> it could also be used for the anonymous donation kind of thing
1131 2014-01-02 14:57:13 <shesek> with more privacy
1132 2014-01-02 14:57:15 <jgarzik> mornin'
1133 2014-01-02 14:57:16 <sipa> how will you send me the receipt, if i'm offline?
1134 2014-01-02 14:57:23 <shesek> where the payee isn't involved at all
1135 2014-01-02 14:57:31 * jgarzik waves at brisque 
1136 2014-01-02 14:57:41 <brisque> jgarzik: howdy.
1137 2014-01-02 14:58:17 <shesek> well, if its a merchant website or something like that, it would be their api that does that (generate payment address client-side, send receipt to server)
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1140 2014-01-02 14:58:31 <shesek> but in other cases... I guess an email could do
1141 2014-01-02 14:58:59 <sipa> if it's a merchant website, you can just generate the key id to pay to on the fly, and hide the complexity of all that from the sender
1142 2014-01-02 14:58:59 <shesek> the payee would get that "receipt" or "redemption code" or whatever and input it to his client
1143 2014-01-02 14:59:35 <sipa> in other cases... that actually sounds very much like a payment server :)
1144 2014-01-02 15:00:19 <shesek> kinda, perhaps an asynchronous payment server where the payee is passive
1145 2014-01-02 15:00:39 <shesek> the payer/payee don't have to synchronously communicate to send payments
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1149 2014-01-02 15:02:44 <shesek> also, its a really thin abstraction layer on top of what currently exists
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1180 2014-01-02 15:34:05 <shesek> I sent that idea to the mailing list, I wonder what people think about that
1181 2014-01-02 15:34:32 askmike has joined
1182 2014-01-02 15:37:56 <shesek> hmm... is sf's mailing list interface really laggy, or was it not sent?
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1213 2014-01-02 16:07:59 <shesek> seems like it isn't getting sent for some reason... sent it to bitcointalk for now https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=395832.0
1214 2014-01-02 16:10:53 TD has joined
1215 2014-01-02 16:14:12 <shesek> can someone tell me if the message I sent to bitcoin-development was received? It seems like it doesn't appear on sourceforge
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1227 2014-01-02 16:20:46 <netg> /
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1233 2014-01-02 16:23:35 <sipa> "Development of the Bitcoin" ?
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1262 2014-01-02 17:01:29 <correcto> is there anyone in here working on distributed computing projects that are not related with bitcoin or any digital currencies but have similar characteristics (parallel processing, heterogenous) ?
1263 2014-01-02 17:03:03 <netg> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Open_Infrastructure_for_Network_Computing ?
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1273 2014-01-02 17:17:42 <ProfMac> main.h mentions "all registered wallets."  How does one go about registering more than one?
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1275 2014-01-02 17:19:14 <Diablo-D3> you cant.
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1278 2014-01-02 17:20:15 rnerd is now known as robonerd
1279 2014-01-02 17:20:46 <sipa> ProfMac: not implememted, but you easily can create multiple CWallet objects and register them
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1281 2014-01-02 17:22:59 <ProfMac> It's gonna take the rest of my life to comprehend the source code.  :-(
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1292 2014-01-02 17:41:03 <maaku> hard
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1294 2014-01-02 17:41:21 <maaku> sorry, wrong window
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1312 2014-01-02 18:05:14 <bitanarchy> bitaddress is not working properly when you pull it offline
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1315 2014-01-02 18:11:58 <gmaxwell> bitanarchy: yea, at the very least the logs-your-private-keys part won't work offline.
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1317 2014-01-02 18:14:04 <bitanarchy> gmaxwell: how would you advise to make paper wallets?
1318 2014-01-02 18:14:54 <sipa> just as cold storage, to be spent only once
1319 2014-01-02 18:15:04 <sipa> or as an actual wallet, which you send/receive from occasionally?
1320 2014-01-02 18:16:07 <bitanarchy> but which tool.... i mean the standard bitcoin client has no option for creating paper wallets.... the most important thing is that you do not want to make errors... control human error component
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1329 2014-01-02 18:28:02 <pigeons> bitanarchy: make a new address with the client, dumprivkey it, print the key on paper or mnemonencode int
1330 2014-01-02 18:28:16 <sipa> bitanarchy: you haven't answered my question :)
1331 2014-01-02 18:31:02 <bitanarchy> sipa: cold storage
1332 2014-01-02 18:33:50 <sipa> then you can just do what pigeons says
1333 2014-01-02 18:34:08 <sipa> but if you really want to use it as a wallet, you'll need a program designed for that like armory
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1336 2014-01-02 18:34:32 <sipa> bitcoin-qt will likely gain that capability too sometime, but we need deterministic wallets first
1337 2014-01-02 18:34:32 <bitanarchy> does the bitcoin client support mnemonencode? didnt know that
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1339 2014-01-02 18:34:46 <sipa> no, you need to do that
1340 2014-01-02 18:34:57 <sipa> the reference client does not support paper wallets at all
1341 2014-01-02 18:35:08 <bitanarchy> the bitcoin-qt client probably has the best entropy generator
1342 2014-01-02 18:35:20 <sipa> it's just openssl
1343 2014-01-02 18:35:27 <bitanarchy> dont trust browsers at all
1344 2014-01-02 18:35:37 <sipa> don't use a browser
1345 2014-01-02 18:36:08 <bitanarchy> but bitcoin-qt does not support bip38 :)
1346 2014-01-02 18:36:45 <sipa> bip38 is flawed, imho
1347 2014-01-02 18:37:02 <sipa> doesn't support compressed pubkey, and presumes only a single address
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1351 2014-01-02 18:38:15 <sipa> if it's just cold storage, just put a single dumped key on paper if you must
1352 2014-01-02 18:38:53 <bitanarchy> and put it in multiple secure safes
1353 2014-01-02 18:38:54 <sipa> but an actual paper wallet is not supported by bitcoin-qt, and you will very likely shoot yourself in the foot if you try
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1355 2014-01-02 18:40:14 <bitanarchy> is there a comparisson between paper wallets and usb wallets?
1356 2014-01-02 18:40:15 <gmaxwell> sipa: did you see the person with the paper wallet who lost 35 BTC last week in #bitcoin?  He had a failure mode I hadn't seen reported yet:
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1358 2014-01-02 18:41:14 <gmaxwell> His basement flooded and turned the paper wallet to unreadable mush.  He'd been making extensive efforts to protect it too.. once a month he was using his scanner/printer to reproduce it (and shreding the old one) to guard against paper aging.
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1360 2014-01-02 18:42:14 <kjj> no baggie?
1361 2014-01-02 18:42:14 <sipa> wow
1362 2014-01-02 18:43:33 <kjj> I've been looking for a fire/flood safe, but it appears that there you get to pick two from the set (fireproof, waterproof, secure)
1363 2014-01-02 18:44:33 <bitanarchy> just remember 12 words for an electrum wallet... no need for a safe
1364 2014-01-02 18:44:38 <gmaxwell> kjj: no safe is really secure unless its bolted into the wall.
1365 2014-01-02 18:44:42 <gmaxwell> bitanarchy: famous last words.
1366 2014-01-02 18:44:56 <gmaxwell> kjj: and protected by an alarm system or guard. :P
1367 2014-01-02 18:45:12 <kjj> yeah, that's the thing.  you can find fireproof, waterproof "chests", which are heavy and annoying to move, but not secure or boltable
1368 2014-01-02 18:45:13 <sipa> instead of storing the money, just use it to pay the guard
1369 2014-01-02 18:45:24 <kjj> or you can find boltable fireproof safes that aren't waterproof
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1371 2014-01-02 18:45:58 <sipa> so: waterproof safe instead a fireproof one
1372 2014-01-02 18:46:02 <sipa> *inside
1373 2014-01-02 18:46:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: no, haven't been in #bitcoin in... years?
1374 2014-01-02 18:46:22 <kjj> costs pile up when you consider the sizes involved
1375 2014-01-02 18:46:27 Kozuch has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1376 2014-01-02 18:46:45 <andytoshi> gribble claims sipa was on #bitcoin 25 weeks ago asking for an op :P
1377 2014-01-02 18:47:00 <gmaxwell> bitanarchy: lots of people have forgoten their keys (there are even a bunch of threads on this) it happens. Esp if you get hit in the head or run a fever... even of keys you use a daily basis. (of course, if you're using it on a daily basis it means you're more vulnerable to it getting compromised on the computer)
1378 2014-01-02 18:47:08 <sipa> oh, right, i may have gone there on request sometime :)
1379 2014-01-02 18:47:13 <tholenst> I suggest secret sharing into three copies
1380 2014-01-02 18:48:16 <kjj> multisig + geographic dispersal works, but is hard to set up
1381 2014-01-02 18:48:38 <tholenst> yes
1382 2014-01-02 18:48:53 Application has joined
1383 2014-01-02 18:49:20 <tholenst> But as long as it's not valuable enough to do that, you can just keep it in one place :)
1384 2014-01-02 18:49:24 <kjj> most people don't have access to two secure buildings, much less two secure buildings in different flood zones.
1385 2014-01-02 18:50:04 <netg> everbody can rent safe deposit box for 10-30$ / year
1386 2014-01-02 18:50:04 <sipa> password protected, and stored on two "cloud" solutions?
1387 2014-01-02 18:50:08 <netg> at banks
1388 2014-01-02 18:50:42 <kjj> in plenty of places, those are hard to come by
1389 2014-01-02 18:51:40 <netg> not in germany :)
1390 2014-01-02 18:52:07 <gmaxwell> kjj: you don't need multisig for this kinda case, you can use a more conventional secret splitting.
1391 2014-01-02 18:52:25 <kjj> in the bitcoin world, multisig is more convntional than splitting
1392 2014-01-02 18:53:13 <kjj> as in, I can use my multisig keys by aiming a QR reader at the paper, dropping the keystrokes directly into the bitcoind command line
1393 2014-01-02 18:53:43 <netg> who has multisig working besides "bits of proof" team?
1394 2014-01-02 18:53:51 crank has joined
1395 2014-01-02 18:54:29 <kjj> I'm not sure what you mean by working, but the satoshi client has had it working via raw transactions for like a year and change
1396 2014-01-02 18:55:28 <netg> i meant higher abstraction level then raw transactions :)
1397 2014-01-02 18:57:19 <gmaxwell> What is BOP doing with it? Grau was having problems a couple weeks ago, he got past those problems but I didn't know he had a UI implementation yet.
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1403 2014-01-02 19:01:33 <netg> this btc1k.com party ticket sale dont count as UI implementation, or?
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1405 2014-01-02 19:08:12 <bitanarchy> which usb live platform would you trust more... ubuntu or tails?
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1409 2014-01-02 19:12:38 <maaku> bitanarchy: for...what?
1410 2014-01-02 19:12:44 <maaku> you are comparing apples to mechanical pencils
1411 2014-01-02 19:13:46 <bitanarchy> to do bitcoin transactions using tor
1412 2014-01-02 19:13:58 <bitanarchy> i dont trust tails at all
1413 2014-01-02 19:14:12 <bitanarchy> it's all tails
1414 2014-01-02 19:14:15 <bitanarchy> :)
1415 2014-01-02 19:14:24 <maaku> bitanarchy: ubuntu live cd isn't configured at all to keep your identity anonymous
1416 2014-01-02 19:14:53 <bitanarchy> so what to do... debian live
1417 2014-01-02 19:15:07 <maaku> nor is debian live
1418 2014-01-02 19:15:11 <maaku> use something which is ... like tails
1419 2014-01-02 19:15:14 <bitanarchy> knopix
1420 2014-01-02 19:16:56 <bitanarchy> is tor safe no... but at least your isp does not see your bitcoin transactions
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1431 2014-01-02 19:27:01 <petertodd> shesek, gmaxwell: all this talk about hiarchies of timestamping servers is exactly what I planned for opentimestamps, and it's also a dumb idea. the only sane thing is to figure out how to make a very short interval - about one second - timestamp chain whose contents are *kept* indefinetely and only then do aggregation. the user experience has to be "click the timestamp button, wait slightly, receive a durable timestamp that can be validated ...
1432 2014-01-02 19:27:08 <petertodd> ... arbitrarily far into the future" or the thing will never catch on. That's why timestamping via blockchain directly is user-friendly while any other scheme sucks.
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1434 2014-01-02 19:28:42 <petertodd> shesek, gmaxwell: the only way to do that short interval chain in a decentralized fashion is some kind of mining scheme where the mining is only there to avoid DoS attacks on the contents of the chain. use the p2sh^2 pre-image idea to keep data out of it. given it's just timestamps preventing reorgs by having some trusted person signing checkpoints periodically is fine
1435 2014-01-02 19:29:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|How does one reduce the number of threads that bitcoind uses?
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1437 2014-01-02 19:29:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I noticed it's showing up in htop 16 times
1438 2014-01-02 19:29:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|`bitcoind --help` suggests that setting, say, par=4 in config will reduce that
1439 2014-01-02 19:29:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But it still seems to create 16 processes
1440 2014-01-02 19:30:05 abishek has joined
1441 2014-01-02 19:30:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, wait a minute
1442 2014-01-02 19:30:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's not "how many threads"
1443 2014-01-02 19:30:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|it's "how many of the 16 threads to use"
1444 2014-01-02 19:30:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is there a way to reduce the number of threads created?
1445 2014-01-02 19:31:02 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: it's how many _additional_ threads for validation
1446 2014-01-02 19:31:11 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: no, the threads are doing specific things.
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1448 2014-01-02 19:31:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah.
1449 2014-01-02 19:31:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|additional?
1450 2014-01-02 19:31:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|How come the number hasn't changed, then?
1451 2014-01-02 19:31:50 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well you can use signing with bitcoin, since the hashing in the timestamping thing is not likely to be persusaive due to low hashpower.
1452 2014-01-02 19:32:08 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: because they weren't started yet? I dunno.
1453 2014-01-02 19:32:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh
1454 2014-01-02 19:32:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Looks like it's 12+par
1455 2014-01-02 19:33:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|and I guess the "auto" had automatically chosen 4
1456 2014-01-02 19:33:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So when I told it to use 4, it didn't change anything :-P
1457 2014-01-02 19:33:28 <petertodd> gmaxwell: er, I should have worded that differently... I mean given it's just timestamping having some trusted community members operate a few top-level aggregation servers whose "blocks" they just sign to show they should be archived indefinitely is fine
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1460 2014-01-02 19:34:11 <petertodd> gmaxwell: obviously *that* chain needs to be eventually timestamped in a secure manner with bitcoin
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1466 2014-01-02 19:37:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, looks like it's 8 threads plus rpcthreads plus par
1467 2014-01-02 19:37:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So an absolute minimum of 10 threads
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1469 2014-01-02 19:38:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: So you *can* reduce how many threads, down to 10
1470 2014-01-02 19:39:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's just that in the test that lead me to think that you couldn't reduce it I picked the exact value that would, in fact, do nothing
1471 2014-01-02 19:39:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(specify the value that was already automatically being used)
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1474 2014-01-02 19:41:55 <enodios> Why does bitcoin-qt look bad on retina macbook, when litecoin-qt has the high res icons? Is this a fairly small change I could fix myself without a background in osx development?
1475 2014-01-02 19:43:11 <deanclkclk> folks....whats the best way to recieve notification to my website when bitcoins recieved so I can atleast show the client a message?
1476 2014-01-02 19:43:29 C4colo has joined
1477 2014-01-02 19:43:57 <waxwing> blockchain.info API?
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1481 2014-01-02 19:47:06 <phantomcircuit> deanclkclk, bitcoind has an rpc api
1482 2014-01-02 19:47:28 <phantomcircuit> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Api
1483 2014-01-02 19:47:44 <phantomcircuit> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)
1484 2014-01-02 19:48:17 <deanclkclk> I saw it phantomcircuit but, these seems like bash script commands..example -notifywallet
1485 2014-01-02 19:48:28 <sipa> yes
1486 2014-01-02 19:48:35 <sipa> -walletnotify, actually
1487 2014-01-02 19:48:54 <phantomcircuit> deanclkclk, yes and then you use that to push to something else like a socket.io server that pushes notifications
1488 2014-01-02 19:49:13 <deanclkclk> the objective is to call a url with the parameters to so I can now if the transaction is confirmed, the bitcoin amount and something that will tie the transaction to my user
1489 2014-01-02 19:49:30 bitanarchy has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1493 2014-01-02 19:52:37 <phantomcircuit> deanclkclk, what you do in the programmed called by walletnotify is offtopic for this channel
1494 2014-01-02 19:53:00 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, is there really an issue with bitcoin.org being a dedicated server?
1495 2014-01-02 19:53:21 <phantomcircuit> i have a box at blacklotus that im sure could be used to host bitcoin.org
1496 2014-01-02 19:53:45 <phantomcircuit> ddos protected and would easily handle hundreds if not thousands of requests per second
1497 2014-01-02 19:53:46 <deanclkclk> I thought this channel offered tech hel
1498 2014-01-02 19:53:48 <deanclkclk> help
1499 2014-01-02 19:53:50 <deanclkclk> but, ok
1500 2014-01-02 19:54:17 <phantomcircuit> sure and we did, but only the part that is what we do
1501 2014-01-02 19:56:09 <deanclkclk> but, if these is any consolation. I am trying to build an exchange but, wanted to know how I could get notification to the site
1502 2014-01-02 19:57:29 <gmaxwell> No, this channel is explicitly not for tech help.
1503 2014-01-02 19:58:17 <deanclkclk> either is me or small minority knows what this channel is about
1504 2014-01-02 19:59:24 <phantomcircuit> deanclkclk, if you cant figure this out you're not going to have a fun time with the exchange
1505 2014-01-02 19:59:50 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, thoughts on server availability?
1506 2014-01-02 20:00:54 <gmaxwell> deanclkclk: This channel is a working forum for the development and maintance of the bitcoin network and the bitcoin reference software.
1507 2014-01-02 20:01:06 <deanclkclk> ahh I see
1508 2014-01-02 20:01:15 <deanclkclk> that makes sense
1509 2014-01-02 20:01:37 <deanclkclk> but, plz put it in the channel decription
1510 2014-01-02 20:02:30 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I only know what saivann told me on github.
1511 2014-01-02 20:02:44 <phantomcircuit> ah ok
1512 2014-01-02 20:02:49 <phantomcircuit> saivann, ping
1513 2014-01-02 20:03:40 <enodios> is my question about bitcoin-qt on retina on-topic? Or should I take it somewhere else?
1514 2014-01-02 20:03:50 <phantomcircuit> enodios, that's on topic
1515 2014-01-02 20:03:54 <phantomcircuit> does it look terrible?
1516 2014-01-02 20:04:16 <gmaxwell> enodios: Its ontopic. Though I believe there is a github issue on it already.
1517 2014-01-02 20:04:20 <phantomcircuit> send me a retina mbp and i'll fix it for you :)
1518 2014-01-02 20:04:29 <gmaxwell> IIRC fixing it required migrating to QT 5 or something.
1519 2014-01-02 20:05:22 <enodios> gmaxwell: that makes sense and matches the qt blog: http://blog.qt.digia.com/blog/2013/04/25/retina-display-support-for-mac-os-ios-and-x11/
1520 2014-01-02 20:05:42 <enodios> it says basic support was added in 5.0
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1523 2014-01-02 20:07:30 <enodios> I found the issue. Thanks.
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1540 2014-01-02 20:32:43 <ProfMac> I have read through main.h and main.cpp for an overview.  I thought I would find a main block in main.cpp where execution starts, but I don't recognize where execution starts.  Can anyone point me to a line number or a string to search for?
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1545 2014-01-02 20:37:57 <jcorgan> the main functions are in bitcoind.cpp, bitcoin.cpp, and bitcoin-cli.cpp
1546 2014-01-02 20:38:42 <jcorgan> one each for the different generated binaries of the same name
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1548 2014-01-02 20:40:56 <andytoshi> ProfMac: main() is in init.cpp
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1551 2014-01-02 20:41:19 <andytoshi> oh, i'm lying
1552 2014-01-02 20:41:58 <jcorgan> that was where it was in 0.8, now it is split out in 0.9
1553 2014-01-02 20:42:13 <andytoshi> ah, thx jcorgan, glad i'm not crazy
1554 2014-01-02 20:44:33 <ProfMac> Thanks, andytoshi (my true name in the old tongue is Mhic An Tosh)
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1557 2014-01-02 20:44:55 <ProfMac> I'm reading 0.8 anyway ...
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1559 2014-01-02 20:48:09 <ProfMac> near line 144: bool AppInit ( int argc, char* argv[])
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1562 2014-01-02 20:54:50 Guest54689 is now known as zapsoda
1563 2014-01-02 20:56:07 <zapsoda> I feel stupid asking this, Is there a simple way to trigger a http callback when a address you generate with bitcoind (Using php and the JSON-RPC api) recieves payment? I normally use the blockchain API which has a great callback function but i'm trying to make a site without any 3rd parties (Blockchain), Ive been looking at the -walletnotify option for bitcoind but it seems i can only pass the transaction hash and I'm not sure
1564 2014-01-02 20:56:07 <zapsoda> how to access it when using the phpcli (I have it run a .sh file and wget the php callback file but that seems odd), I also thought about constant polling but that seems horribly inefficient), Any tips? I feel like i'm missing something obvious since most developers would want a way to know when a gened address receives payment
1565 2014-01-02 20:56:24 <zapsoda> I could have it*
1566 2014-01-02 20:57:00 <andytoshi> just call bitcoind gettransaction $txhash to get the rest of the data
1567 2014-01-02 20:58:09 <zapsoda> But how would I pass the transaction hash to php? I know I can run a process and put %s in the process name to pass it but AFAIK you cant pass a parameter to a php process from the command line
1568 2014-01-02 20:59:55 <andytoshi> ofc you can but this is offtopic for #bitcoin-dev
1569 2014-01-02 21:00:46 <ProfMac> is there a thread/forum for the more application oriented questions?
1570 2014-01-02 21:01:14 <andytoshi> #coindev is close, but generally you should find a forum for the specific tools you are using
1571 2014-01-02 21:02:06 <zapsoda> According to the bitcoin wiki "If you are delivering digital goods or services and want to be able to deliver instantly upon payment and/or confirmation, you can use a third-party service such as Bitcoin Notify to tell your website when a payment has been received. This sort of service requires no significant API implementation - they will simply make a POST to your website or send you an e-mail when a payment has been received
1572 2014-01-02 21:02:06 <zapsoda> on one of your addresses."  Is their a way to do this without using a third party app? using only the bitcoind api?
1573 2014-01-02 21:02:16 <zapsoda> That may be more on topic
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1575 2014-01-02 21:03:52 <zapsoda> It doesnt seem like its possible (Atleast not easily) most people seem to suggest using a third party service http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/2374/push-deposit-notification-through-http-requests :/
1576 2014-01-02 21:04:46 <daybyter> zapsoda: did joshua contact you on the gaming idea?
1577 2014-01-02 21:06:20 <zapsoda> I dont think so?
1578 2014-01-02 21:06:37 <zapsoda> I havent been on skype much
1579 2014-01-02 21:06:48 <zapsoda> I forgot to make it start with my computer, 1 sec
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1647 2014-01-02 22:24:51 <melvster> the block chain is about to have it's 5th birthday?
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1672 2014-01-02 22:38:59 <jcorgan> omg bluematt you did it :)
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1677 2014-01-02 22:41:04 <BlueMatt> jcorgan: ?
1678 2014-01-02 22:41:17 nym has joined
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1680 2014-01-02 22:41:30 <jcorgan> just read about coingen.bluematt.me.  I thought that conversation would just stay a joke :)
1681 2014-01-02 22:41:31 <BlueMatt> if you're referring to coingen...goddamit, I just linked it to wizards because its still too early beta to be passed around...
1682 2014-01-02 22:41:46 <jcorgan> twitter
1683 2014-01-02 22:41:55 <BlueMatt> lol, who the hell is tweeting about this
1684 2014-01-02 22:42:08 <jcorgan> @socrates1024
1685 2014-01-02 22:42:18 <BlueMatt> in any case, it should be usable by the end of the day (hopefuly)
1686 2014-01-02 22:43:01 <jcorgan> ROFL about +0.05 BTC to include source code
1687 2014-01-02 22:44:25 wallet42 has joined
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1699 2014-01-02 22:52:17 <andytoshi> hmm, maybe there should be a general 'preorder' option where BlueMatt does the premining for you ;)
1700 2014-01-02 22:52:55 hexafraction has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1701 2014-01-02 22:53:41 <BlueMatt> yes, thats one thing I'm considering
1702 2014-01-02 22:54:15 <sipa> you know you could just add some code that adds an initial utxo entry?,:)
1703 2014-01-02 22:54:21 <jcorgan> can you have it create spam links and messages on IRC?
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1707 2014-01-02 22:57:00 <robonerd> any btc devs in or around seattle?
1708 2014-01-02 22:57:27 <andytoshi> robonerd: in in vancouver, but i think you've already talked to me
1709 2014-01-02 22:57:37 <robonerd> yep
1710 2014-01-02 22:57:41 <robonerd> pity too, you're close
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1715 2014-01-02 22:58:37 <BlueMatt> is there no method to get raw pubkey from address in rpc?
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1724 2014-01-02 23:05:35 <Nblg> Any developers here?
1725 2014-01-02 23:05:48 azariah4 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1726 2014-01-02 23:05:48 <BlueMatt> no
1727 2014-01-02 23:05:56 <sipa> none, sorry
1728 2014-01-02 23:06:04 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, nope
1729 2014-01-02 23:06:14 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: why are you telling me that?
1730 2014-01-02 23:06:16 <phantomcircuit> maybe with sipas patch
1731 2014-01-02 23:06:22 <phantomcircuit> <BlueMatt> is there no method to get raw pubkey from address in rpc?
1732 2014-01-02 23:06:24 <BlueMatt> oh, yea
1733 2014-01-02 23:06:25 <Nblg> Looking for help on how to compile a source code for windows client, then i can release my altcoin:)
1734 2014-01-02 23:06:26 <phantomcircuit> answering that
1735 2014-01-02 23:06:27 <BlueMatt> apparently not
1736 2014-01-02 23:06:35 <sipa> BlueMatt: validateaddress
1737 2014-01-02 23:06:54 <BlueMatt> Nblg: coingen.bluematt.me
1738 2014-01-02 23:06:57 <sipa> Nblg: this is not #altcoin-dev
1739 2014-01-02 23:07:27 <Nblg> damn, any idea on where i could look for help :/
1740 2014-01-02 23:07:30 <BlueMatt> no
1741 2014-01-02 23:07:40 <BlueMatt> well, I'll compile it for you for 1 BTC
1742 2014-01-02 23:07:41 K_a__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1743 2014-01-02 23:08:21 <sipa> Nblg: you're not even able to compile source code, and you're thinking about creating your own fork...?
1744 2014-01-02 23:09:25 K_a__ has joined
1745 2014-01-02 23:10:37 <Nblg> i am nearly there
1746 2014-01-02 23:10:47 <Nblg> i just need this part over and done with
1747 2014-01-02 23:10:47 <Nblg> :/
1748 2014-01-02 23:10:57 <BlueMatt> I'll build it for 1 BTC
1749 2014-01-02 23:11:05 <Nblg> that's a rip off
1750 2014-01-02 23:11:08 <Nblg> for 1btc
1751 2014-01-02 23:11:08 <robonerd> that's a great deal
1752 2014-01-02 23:11:16 <robonerd> are you kidding? it's a once in a lifetime opportunity
1753 2014-01-02 23:11:17 <Nblg> a guy can build an altcoin from scratch
1754 2014-01-02 23:11:22 Nblg has left ()
1755 2014-01-02 23:11:28 <BlueMatt> hey, I got 100 BTC for building bitcoin on windows before, so 1 BTC is quite a deal
1756 2014-01-02 23:12:08 <sipa> haha
1757 2014-01-02 23:12:53 <phantomcircuit> sipa, does validateaddress only return the pubkey if it's in pwalletMain ?
1758 2014-01-02 23:12:53 nym has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1759 2014-01-02 23:13:02 <sipa> yes
1760 2014-01-02 23:13:03 azariah4 has joined
1761 2014-01-02 23:13:53 <phantomcircuit> i was assuming BlueMatt was looking for arbitrary address -> pubkey lookups for any address with a spend
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1769 2014-01-02 23:20:55 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: no, one in my wallet
1770 2014-01-02 23:20:57 <BlueMatt> sipa: thanks
1771 2014-01-02 23:23:05 <zapsoda> Any ideas why I'm not able to use getrawtransaction from the JSON RPC with PHP? Other commands like getinfo work but for some reason getrawtransaction isnt, Could it have to do with the fact that I'm using a random txid from blockchain for testing?
1772 2014-01-02 23:23:28 <sipa> you need to enable the transaction index for getrawtransaction to work
1773 2014-01-02 23:23:29 <maaku> zapsoda: -txindex=1
1774 2014-01-02 23:23:40 <sipa> put txindex=1 in your bitcoin.conf
1775 2014-01-02 23:23:57 <sipa> and you'll need to rebuild the database, so run with -reindex once
1776 2014-01-02 23:24:23 <sipa> also, getrawtransaction does not ever work on the genesis block's coinbase transaction, and this is intentional
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1791 2014-01-02 23:36:48 <zapsoda> thanks maaku and sipa
1792 2014-01-02 23:36:56 <zapsoda> Does that mean redownloading the full blockchain?
1793 2014-01-02 23:37:00 jakov_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1794 2014-01-02 23:37:29 <sipa> no
1795 2014-01-02 23:37:37 <sipa> only processing the blocks on disk again
1796 2014-01-02 23:37:43 <sipa> it can still take a few hours
1797 2014-01-02 23:37:51 <sipa> increasing your database cache size helps
1798 2014-01-02 23:37:57 <sipa> -dbcache=N
1799 2014-01-02 23:38:02 <jcorgan> i wish someone had told me that :)
1800 2014-01-02 23:38:04 <zapsoda> Thanks
1801 2014-01-02 23:38:06 <sipa> with N a number in megabytes
1802 2014-01-02 23:38:20 <phantomcircuit> zapsoda, how much memory do you have
1803 2014-01-02 23:39:05 EngierkO has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1804 2014-01-02 23:39:12 <zapsoda> Ram or HDD? 6gb and 500gb
1805 2014-01-02 23:39:32 <phantomcircuit> zacm, set dbcache to 4096
1806 2014-01-02 23:39:45 <zapsoda> Me?
1807 2014-01-02 23:39:58 <phantomcircuit> sorry yeah
1808 2014-01-02 23:40:42 <zapsoda> Thanks
1809 2014-01-02 23:43:01 profreid has quit (Quit: profreid)
1810 2014-01-02 23:44:14 <zapsoda> So how will I know when its done reindexing?
1811 2014-01-02 23:44:32 <maaku> watch the debug output
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1813 2014-01-02 23:45:58 <zapsoda> I ran: bitcoind -dbcache=4096 -reindex -debug but there isnt any output, I think I'm missing somthing lol. Its my first time running bitcoin locally
1814 2014-01-02 23:46:17 <sipa> there won't be any output
1815 2014-01-02 23:46:21 <sipa> use bitcoind getinfo
1816 2014-01-02 23:46:30 <sipa> to query information about a running bitcoind
1817 2014-01-02 23:46:34 nightlingo has joined
1818 2014-01-02 23:46:53 <nightlingo> hello
1819 2014-01-02 23:46:56 <sipa> phantomcircuit: before suggesting dbcache=4096, check whether people are running a 64-bit version :)
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1821 2014-01-02 23:47:12 <phantomcircuit> sipa, oh heh, i just assume now
1822 2014-01-02 23:47:20 <phantomcircuit> guess i shouldn't do that
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1824 2014-01-02 23:47:32 <sipa> probably the only ones running 32-bit are win32
1825 2014-01-02 23:47:53 <phantomcircuit> which is basically only win xp users at this point
1826 2014-01-02 23:47:58 <zapsoda> I am, But thanks for letting me know
1827 2014-01-02 23:48:17 <nightlingo> how can I use bitcoind to check for transactions regarding my address in a block? thanks
1828 2014-01-02 23:48:41 <sipa> nightlingo: it automatically does that, assuming that address is in your wallet
1829 2014-01-02 23:48:53 <sipa> also, #bitcoin
1830 2014-01-02 23:49:14 Zarutian_ has joined
1831 2014-01-02 23:50:24 <nightlingo> sipa: I used the command: -notifyblock  which notifies me when best  block changes by giving me the block hash
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1833 2014-01-02 23:51:12 <nightlingo> sipa: what I am trying to achieve is a scalable solution to managing thousands of addresses
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1835 2014-01-02 23:51:20 <zapsoda> nightlingo, try -walletnotify (the say way as blocknotify works) thats what im trying to setup atleast
1836 2014-01-02 23:51:26 jakov_ has joined
1837 2014-01-02 23:51:37 <zapsoda> Idk how scalable it is :/
1838 2014-01-02 23:52:12 <sipa> up to ~100000 addresses in a bitcoind wallet is doable, i heard
1839 2014-01-02 23:52:17 <nightlingo> zapsoda: I read on the bitcoin wiki that when using accounts to check balances on bitcoind it's not scalable because it calculates balances based on all the transactions per account
1840 2014-01-02 23:52:42 <nightlingo> sipa: I think this also has to do with the average number of transactions per address
1841 2014-01-02 23:52:46 super3 has joined
1842 2014-01-02 23:52:49 <sipa> yes, that matters much more
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1847 2014-01-02 23:54:00 <zapsoda> Hmm, I would think there was a easy way to push new deposit notifications but I have yet to find out (Except creating a http callback if using the blockchain API to gen a address) but i'm trying to do it without a 3rd party api
1848 2014-01-02 23:54:46 <sipa> yes, -walletnotify
1849 2014-01-02 23:55:13 <sipa> phantomcircuit: how many transactions do you handle inside bitcoind?
1850 2014-01-02 23:55:34 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i have an active wallet with iirc 78k txs
1851 2014-01-02 23:55:41 <phantomcircuit> want me to check exactly?
1852 2014-01-02 23:55:54 <sipa> nightlingo: does that answer?
1853 2014-01-02 23:56:05 <sipa> phantomcircuit: nah, order of magnitude
1854 2014-01-02 23:56:13 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1855 2014-01-02 23:56:14 <nightlingo> ok
1856 2014-01-02 23:56:26 <nightlingo> cool!
1857 2014-01-02 23:56:37 <sipa> certainly, bitcoind's wallet is far from the most scalable solution around
1858 2014-01-02 23:56:37 <nightlingo> I guess walletnotify is a good way
1859 2014-01-02 23:56:46 <phantomcircuit> that's on a server with 2GB of ram and conventional hdds in raid1
1860 2014-01-02 23:56:58 <phantomcircuit> it's not even close to the fastest setup possible and is plenty fast
1861 2014-01-02 23:56:59 <sipa> cpu probably matters more
1862 2014-01-02 23:57:04 <nightlingo> phantomcircuit: all of those txs are for the same account?
1863 2014-01-02 23:57:09 <sipa> nightlingo: irrelevant
1864 2014-01-02 23:57:10 <zapsoda> Ok, Thanks sipa and phantomcircuit (again)
1865 2014-01-02 23:57:20 <sipa> also, don't use the accounts system
1866 2014-01-02 23:57:25 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ++
1867 2014-01-02 23:57:29 <nightlingo> sipa: yeah that's what I'm trying to avoid
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1869 2014-01-02 23:57:48 <phantomcircuit> nightlingo, i suggest you just call listtransactions in a huge loop
1870 2014-01-02 23:58:07 <nightlingo> phantomcircuit: why not walletnotify?
1871 2014-01-02 23:58:24 <phantomcircuit> walletnotify is nice but you need to also have a poll mechanism for if it fails
1872 2014-01-02 23:58:33 super3 has joined
1873 2014-01-02 23:58:34 <phantomcircuit> so then you have the same code slightly different in two places
1874 2014-01-02 23:58:39 <phantomcircuit> which is probably dangerous
1875 2014-01-02 23:59:11 <phantomcircuit> nightlingo, alternatively you can have walletnotify trigger a poll of listtransactions
1876 2014-01-02 23:59:23 <nightlingo> phantomcircuit: yeah that actually sounds like a good idea
1877 2014-01-02 23:59:48 <sipa> you could have a while true { while (didn't receive a notify yet && time since last poll is less than 1 minute) { sleep; }; call listtransactions; }
1878 2014-01-02 23:59:54 <phantomcircuit> nightlingo, https://gitorious.org/vibanko/vibanko/source/e81f474c8891ebef2cef9ced6003232c4507eaec:daemons/bitcoin_deposits.py