1 2014-01-05 00:01:18 <sipa> debug.log?
   2 2014-01-05 00:01:18 <nsh> (system went down too, or was 'frozen' when they returned to it) requested debug.log
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   4 2014-01-05 00:03:43 <jcorgan> it looks like graphics system segfaulted, then bitcoin-qt
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   6 2014-01-05 00:03:43 <nsh> ah
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  22 2014-01-05 00:14:38 <amincd> hi, how do I use the bitcoin commands with bitcoin-qt?
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  25 2014-01-05 00:15:50 <nsh> iirc it's removed to stop people foot-shooting
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  27 2014-01-05 00:16:18 <sipa> in the debug console
  28 2014-01-05 00:17:48 <sipa> in the gui
  29 2014-01-05 00:17:48 <sipa> or you can start with -server
  30 2014-01-05 00:17:48 <sipa> and then send it commands via JSON-RPC
  31 2014-01-05 00:17:48 <sipa> nothing removed
  32 2014-01-05 00:17:48 <nsh> sorry, my bad
  33 2014-01-05 00:17:48 <amincd> sipa: thanks
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  44 2014-01-05 00:30:28 <flound1129> is there a way to get a list of mining transactions only?  from the command line
  45 2014-01-05 00:30:28 <flound1129> i.e. generate, immature, or orphan
  46 2014-01-05 00:30:28 <flound1129> and skip the sends/receives?
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  51 2014-01-05 00:34:24 <justanotheruser> flound1129: you only want the coinbase transactions?
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  53 2014-01-05 00:34:45 <justanotheruser> your blockchain doesn't include orphans
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  62 2014-01-05 00:41:02 <flound1129> justanotheruser1: yes
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  68 2014-01-05 00:53:27 <shesek> anyone knows who was running mojocoin's testnet facuet?
  69 2014-01-05 00:54:14 <shesek> looks like their domain has expired, perhaps they'll want to let someone else maintain it?
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  81 2014-01-05 01:20:51 <flound1129> justanotheruser: so is there a way to do that?
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 225 2014-01-05 04:39:19 <lolcat> Hello
 226 2014-01-05 04:41:08 <lolcat> I have two questions regarding the blockchain: 1) Would it be hard to modify it into being a database with like two tables with 3-4 fields each where one table in encrypted and the other is not? And why is the downloading of the blockchain so incredibly slow? Is it an issue with discovering the right peers, or the p2p protocol itself?
 227 2014-01-05 04:42:34 <jaakkos> in bitcoin nothing is encrypted
 228 2014-01-05 04:42:58 <jaakkos> greetings from ZoL channel btw ;)
 229 2014-01-05 04:43:06 <lolcat> greetings
 230 2014-01-05 04:43:28 <justanotheruser> lolcat: it is slow because you are downloading *and* verifying each block and transaction
 231 2014-01-05 04:43:43 <Luke-Jr> (not in parallel)
 232 2014-01-05 04:43:59 <justanotheruser> What are the 3-4 fields, why are you encrypting a table?
 233 2014-01-05 04:45:19 <lolcat> justanotheruser: First table would contain: torrenhash/id|encrypted filename. Second table would contain: encrypted filenameandlocation|torrenthash/id|encryptionkey
 234 2014-01-05 04:45:46 <lolcat> the first table needs like at least one more field to represent the shareID to enable nested shares, but that isn't too important
 235 2014-01-05 04:45:51 <justanotheruser> lolcat: oh, you're saying you want to store data in the blockchain?
 236 2014-01-05 04:46:34 <Luke-Jr> lolcat: this doesn't sound like a #bitcoin-dev topic O.o
 237 2014-01-05 04:46:43 <lolcat> justanotheruser: Yes, I want a blockchain that can be signed by (either one trusted node, or by a collective of trusted nodes).
 238 2014-01-05 04:47:10 <lolcat> Luke-Jr: I just wanted to ask a couple of questions about the blockchain, if that is offtopic I appologize. Is there a more appropriate venue?
 239 2014-01-05 04:47:36 <Luke-Jr> lolcat: a centralised network has no need/use of a blockchain
 240 2014-01-05 04:48:25 <justanotheruser> lolcat: You should store the data in namecoin at least. It is going to be expensive to store a lot of data in bitcoins blockchain
 241 2014-01-05 04:48:35 <justanotheruser> along with that, that isn't what the bitcoin was designed for
 242 2014-01-05 04:49:42 <lolcat> Luke-Jr: Part of it would be usefull, being able to verify that it is the correct data, in the correct order would be usefull. For a decentralized filesystem I am a bit uncertain what I would use the blockchain for (maybe for distributing storage space)
 243 2014-01-05 04:50:27 <lolcat> Luke-Jr: Basicly I want to make P2P storage without coding more than a few lines myself, so I am just looking for any project I could take code from
 244 2014-01-05 04:50:47 Eiii has joined
 245 2014-01-05 04:50:47 <Luke-Jr> lolcat: I don't think Bitcoin is that project.
 246 2014-01-05 04:50:57 Eiii has quit (Client Quit)
 247 2014-01-05 04:51:10 <lolcat> justanotheruser: the coin part isnt that important, the important part for me is the way blockchains works, that you can add verifiable blocks and distribute them p2p
 248 2014-01-05 04:51:15 <Luke-Jr> lolcat: Bitcoin is probably the most inefficient way possible to store data
 249 2014-01-05 04:51:34 <lolcat> Luke-Jr: But could I make my own blockchain using RSA signing of something?
 250 2014-01-05 04:51:46 <Luke-Jr> you could, but it'd be silly
 251 2014-01-05 04:52:09 <Luke-Jr> blockchain essentially means every single p2p node has a complete copy of everything
 252 2014-01-05 04:52:22 <Luke-Jr> the usecases for that are not very wide
 253 2014-01-05 04:53:22 <lolcat> Luke-Jr: I would have to be able to transfer the data to a new block chain, for instance, when I am sharing my vacation photoes with my grandmother, I don't want her to have the torrent IDs or decryption keys for my drunk pictures.
 254 2014-01-05 04:53:42 <lianj> lolcat: wrong project
 255 2014-01-05 04:54:36 <justanotheruser> lolcat: It will cost the standard transaction fee for every 80 bytes you want to encode if you use OP_RETURN in 0.9. This means you will pay this much per Kb:
 256 2014-01-05 04:54:38 <Luke-Jr> lolcat: I have no idea why you thought Bitcoin would be a good foundation for this idea, but it isn't.
 257 2014-01-05 04:54:42 <lolcat> I'll ask my last question and then I will stop bothering you. How does the bitcoin blockchain differ from me for say, signing something with RSA for each block?
 258 2014-01-05 04:54:45 <justanotheruser> ;;calc 800*0.00001*1000/80
 259 2014-01-05 04:54:48 <gribble> 0.1
 260 2014-01-05 04:54:48 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: … no
 261 2014-01-05 04:55:26 <justanotheruser> oops, standard tx fee is 10 times that
 262 2014-01-05 04:55:33 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: no what
 263 2014-01-05 04:55:46 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: OP_RETURN isn't intended to be used.
 264 2014-01-05 04:55:59 <lolcat> justanotheruser: Storing it in the actual bitcoin blockchain seems crazy. It is HUGE.
 265 2014-01-05 04:56:08 yubrew has joined
 266 2014-01-05 04:56:13 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: "So, with some reluctance, I recently merged pull request #2738 : “Relay OP_RETURN data TxOut as standard transaction type.”"
 267 2014-01-05 04:56:13 tesserajk has joined
 268 2014-01-05 04:56:30 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: OP_RETURN is essentially "Argh, I can't stop you from raping me! Please be gentle!"
 269 2014-01-05 04:56:37 <lolcat> justanotheruser: Copying the sourcecode for the P2P distribution of the block chain, and maybe the verification of the block chain, that would be usefull
 270 2014-01-05 04:57:20 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: and Gavin has little authority to make data carriers a standard transaction type - it's really the miners' role
 271 2014-01-05 04:57:25 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: so it isn't intended to be used, but it can be used. I am telling him it is pointless because it costs $1/kb, when you could get 10,000,000 times that much storage for free
 272 2014-01-05 04:57:49 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 273 2014-01-05 04:58:43 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: Isn't it more the networks role? If the network can get it to the miners, one of them might choose to include it, and if one of them choose to include it they all might as well include it because they are losing transaction fees.
 274 2014-01-05 04:58:55 <lolcat> justanotheruser: I think you fail a bit to see the application. And I guess I fail a bit at understanding what a blockchain is. I thought it was something like signed(signed(somedata)somemoredata)
 275 2014-01-05 04:59:03 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: hopefully no miners will include it.
 276 2014-01-05 04:59:46 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: Well they can already store the data in a scriptsig right? At least this way there is one less item in the utxo
 277 2014-01-05 05:00:24 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: scriptSig is never in the UTXO ever.
 278 2014-01-05 05:00:26 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 279 2014-01-05 05:00:50 <Lifeofcray> https://twitter.com/BitEmber
 280 2014-01-05 05:01:16 <Luke-Jr> Lifeofcray: why are you spamming this scam?
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 282 2014-01-05 05:01:28 <lolcat> Is tehre any limit on what the miner can add to a block?
 283 2014-01-05 05:01:36 <Luke-Jr> lolcat: 1 MB
 284 2014-01-05 05:01:48 <lolcat> ah
 285 2014-01-05 05:02:26 <Luke-Jr> also a limited number of ECDSA opcodes
 286 2014-01-05 05:02:27 <lolcat> Is the block just recursive signing of like $lastsignedblock with the new data appended signed?
 287 2014-01-05 05:02:38 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: Was this message not stored using a scriptsig? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38007.msg484499#msg484499
 288 2014-01-05 05:02:44 <Luke-Jr> lolcat: blocks are essentially executable bytecode with a proof-of-work attached
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 290 2014-01-05 05:03:01 <justanotheruser> Or is it just not in the utxo, but it can't be pruned
 291 2014-01-05 05:03:05 <lolcat> Luke-Jr: executable?
 292 2014-01-05 05:03:21 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: not sure which
 293 2014-01-05 05:03:32 <Luke-Jr> lolcat: interpretable, if you prefer
 294 2014-01-05 05:03:36 <lolcat> Ah
 295 2014-01-05 05:03:48 <lolcat> Does the blockchain grow in both directions?
 296 2014-01-05 05:03:53 <Luke-Jr> lolcat: no.
 297 2014-01-05 05:04:12 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: Does the coinbase still allow arbitrary messages, or is it just the height now
 298 2014-01-05 05:04:23 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: up to 95 bytes
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 300 2014-01-05 05:05:24 <lolcat> That makes sense, it appears the stuff RSA adds at the beginning of the message is just for humans
 301 2014-01-05 05:05:50 <lianj> there is no rsa…
 302 2014-01-05 05:06:10 <lolcat> lianj: I am just comparing the protocoll to what I know
 303 2014-01-05 05:06:17 <lolcat> RSA signing I have experienced
 304 2014-01-05 05:07:39 <lolcat> I am sure bitcoin blockchain signing isn't pragmatically much different, as in the concept is the same
 305 2014-01-05 05:07:57 <Luke-Jr> lolcat: bitcoin blockchain is not signed at all..
 306 2014-01-05 05:07:59 <lianj> blocks are not signed at all
 307 2014-01-05 05:08:37 <lolcat> Oh, I guess I am dumb, and you guys were right all along then...
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 309 2014-01-05 05:09:50 <lolcat> Then the only usefull part of code for me would be the P2P part that distribute the blockchain
 310 2014-01-05 05:10:11 <nessence> are there any good codesamples (or codebase, say libbitcoin?) that would be good for creating multi-sig transactions and managing several wallets?
 311 2014-01-05 05:10:36 <nessence> many options, and not sure which is right tool for the job yet.
 312 2014-01-05 05:11:26 <lolcat> Is the P2P protocoll complicated?
 313 2014-01-05 05:11:43 <lianj> no
 314 2014-01-05 05:11:56 <lolcat> Does it use encryption?
 315 2014-01-05 05:12:06 <lianj> no
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 317 2014-01-05 05:12:52 <lolcat> I guess that would be fine
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 335 2014-01-05 05:28:49 <Luke-Jr> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ufacn/bitcoin_wallets_are_inaccessible_for_blind_people/
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 383 2014-01-05 06:02:27 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: genjix's command-line sx wallet would work...
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 393 2014-01-05 06:12:27 <shesek> I never thought I'd hear command line tools mentioned as a solution for accessibility problems :)
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 525 2014-01-05 09:44:55 <Luton> Hi, I have a question regarding the ScriptSig (tx in): Is it possible to convert the ASM value to HEX (and vice versa)?
 526 2014-01-05 09:46:27 <Luton> Here is an example: https://coinb.in/api/?uid=1&key=12345678901234567890123456789012&setmodule=block&request=gettransactionbeautify&txid=824c16b311e55be77f2466386054a459fe6c5908f702b844fd253c04e27dfd8c&output=xml
 527 2014-01-05 09:47:24 <maaku> Luton: yes, of course
 528 2014-01-05 09:47:41 <maaku> is there an (dis)assembler tool? no
 529 2014-01-05 09:47:47 <maaku> but read script.cpp
 530 2014-01-05 09:48:21 <gmaxwell> maaku: decodescript
 531 2014-01-05 09:48:36 <gmaxwell> no assembler though
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 577 2014-01-05 10:54:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luton, maaku: Seems to me script.h would be more useful than script.cpp
 578 2014-01-05 10:54:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(or the wiki article on Script)
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 612 2014-01-05 11:49:42 <abrkn> im trying to construct a tx using bitcoinjs-lib with inspiration from coinpunk: https://gist.github.com/abrkn/c887f18d834d9b5319a0 but keep getting "invalid signature" when pushing to blockchain.info's pushtx. any obvious mistakes? am i using the correct script for unspentOutScript?
 613 2014-01-05 11:53:44 <abrkn> im taking the script from here: https://blockchain.info/unspent?active=1BgW8AV39Rsr3XnDXGMrh11kRD1C96jw6y
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 619 2014-01-05 12:09:50 <abrkn> updated to be a bit more clear: https://gist.github.com/abrkn/c887f18d834d9b5319a0
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 621 2014-01-05 12:13:10 <abrkn> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20933304/how-do-you-construct-a-transaction-using-bitcoinjs-lib
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 628 2014-01-05 12:20:04 <shesek> abrkn, it looks fine to me, I don't see anything obvious about it that seems wrong
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 633 2014-01-05 12:23:44 <sipa> abrkn: i think you have to add all inputs first, before constructing the signatutes
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 636 2014-01-05 12:29:18 <shesek> oh, right. yes, he should do that first
 637 2014-01-05 12:32:37 <sipa> yes, indeed
 638 2014-01-05 12:33:01 <sipa> the transaction signature hash does contain enpty scripts gor all inputs nit being signed
 639 2014-01-05 12:33:17 <sipa> for, not
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 663 2014-01-05 13:13:53 <nightlingo> guys
 664 2014-01-05 13:13:55 <nightlingo> yo
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 680 2014-01-05 13:45:01 <nightlingo> guys... how do I know which port did the bitcoind daemon start on ?
 681 2014-01-05 13:45:16 <sipa> p2p 8333, rpc 8332
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 685 2014-01-05 13:46:40 <nightlingo> sipa: but, is there a command to make it report the port?
 686 2014-01-05 13:46:57 <nightlingo> sipa: like to dump a json with the current settings ?
 687 2014-01-05 13:47:04 <sipa> not afaik
 688 2014-01-05 13:47:13 <nightlingo> sipa: ok thanks!
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 713 2014-01-05 14:16:16 <shesek> anyone knows why pay-to-(non-hash)-pubkey outputs are used for generation transactions? (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ug3r9/why_is_paytopubkey_used_for_generation/)
 714 2014-01-05 14:16:23 <shesek> seems odd that its like that
 715 2014-01-05 14:16:38 <sipa> because originally they were the only type of outputs
 716 2014-01-05 14:16:57 <sipa> pay-to-scripthash was introduced later to make addresses smaller
 717 2014-01-05 14:17:30 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 718 2014-01-05 14:18:11 <shesek> yeah, I know, but why wasn't it changed for generation transactions too?
 719 2014-01-05 14:18:23 <shesek> just some leftovers that weren't updated?
 720 2014-01-05 14:18:57 <shesek> or is there some reason behind this?
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 725 2014-01-05 14:26:12 <sipa> meh, nobody uses bitcoind to generate blocks anymore
 726 2014-01-05 14:26:52 kolala has joined
 727 2014-01-05 14:27:10 <kolala> hi, im trying to build berkeley db 4.8.30 on mingw but having no luck
 728 2014-01-05 14:27:20 <kolala> is there a comprehensive guide perhaps?
 729 2014-01-05 14:27:27 <kolala> tried all fixes i could find on bitcointalk
 730 2014-01-05 14:28:21 <sipa> shesek: there's little advantage to changing it
 731 2014-01-05 14:28:30 <sipa> slightly lower utxo size
 732 2014-01-05 14:28:57 <shesek> and some extra protection if ECDSA is ever broken
 733 2014-01-05 14:29:34 banghouse has joined
 734 2014-01-05 14:29:53 <kolala> are there premade binaries maybe?
 735 2014-01-05 14:30:04 <shesek> assuming the attack wouldn't be fast enough to crack it after someone broadcasts but before it gets mined
 736 2014-01-05 14:30:12 <gmaxwell> shesek: stop.
 737 2014-01-05 14:30:16 <gmaxwell> shesek: you're confused.
 738 2014-01-05 14:30:22 <shesek> I am?
 739 2014-01-05 14:30:32 <gmaxwell> shesek: go find me a block with a pay to pubkey generation transaction.
 740 2014-01-05 14:30:51 <gmaxwell> you likely won't find any any time recently
 741 2014-01-05 14:30:57 <shesek> I was assuming that reddit posted was right, I didn't confirm it myself
 742 2014-01-05 14:31:03 <shesek> you mean because no one uses bitcoind for mining?
 743 2014-01-05 14:31:07 <gmaxwell> ...
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 745 2014-01-05 14:31:17 <shesek> s/posted/poster
 746 2014-01-05 14:31:18 <gmaxwell> you could read the comments where I pointed this out too, but perhaps too politely.
 747 2014-01-05 14:31:26 Raziel has joined
 748 2014-01-05 14:31:30 <gmaxwell> shesek: everyone uses bitcoind for mining no one uses the internal cpu miner.
 749 2014-01-05 14:32:20 <gmaxwell> getblocktemplate doesn't return a coinbase transaction. the external miner software generates it.
 750 2014-01-05 14:32:27 <brisque> wonder if Bitcoin-QT has solved any blocks recently. you'd think someone would have an old enough copy for it to still be mining, but they'd likely be forked out by now.
 751 2014-01-05 14:33:27 <gmaxwell> brisque: ... with the cpu miner? very unlikely.
 752 2014-01-05 14:33:28 <shesek> still, I think the reference implementation should do this correctly, even if its not used directly
 753 2014-01-05 14:33:42 <shesek> like, when someone writes a pool software, he could be following bitcoind
 754 2014-01-05 14:33:43 <gmaxwell> it is correct, pay to pubkey transactions are pefectly fine.
 755 2014-01-05 14:33:51 wei__ has quit (Quit: wei__)
 756 2014-01-05 14:33:59 <shesek> I was just wondering if it was intentional or an oversight
 757 2014-01-05 14:34:13 <gmaxwell> No, it's not an oversight. It's just not signficiant.
 758 2014-01-05 14:34:26 <brisque> gmaxwell: unlikely but not impossible. I'd be very impressed if it had.
 759 2014-01-05 14:34:34 <gmaxwell> ;;genrate 12
 760 2014-01-05 14:34:35 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 12.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 1418481395.26, is 4.25446411728e-06 BTC per day and 1.7726933822e-07 BTC per hour.
 761 2014-01-05 14:34:42 <brisque> ;;gentime 12
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 763 2014-01-05 14:34:43 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 12.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 1418481395.26, is 16099 years, 6 weeks, 3 days, 17 hours, 10 minutes, and 4 seconds
 764 2014-01-05 14:35:07 <shesek> well, perhaps "correct" wasn't the right word. but if pay-to-pubkey-hash are used by default everywhere else, it doesn't make much sense to leave pay-to-pubkey in some places
 765 2014-01-05 14:35:21 <shesek> and even though its correct and works, it does have some disadvantages
 766 2014-01-05 14:35:25 <gmaxwell> shesek: sure it does, it keeps it working, and the transactions are smaller.
 767 2014-01-05 14:35:30 <gmaxwell> shesek: and it has _advantages_
 768 2014-01-05 14:35:43 <gmaxwell> it is nearly disadvantage free.
 769 2014-01-05 14:36:05 <shesek> you mean funding tx + spending tx together are smaller?
 770 2014-01-05 14:36:08 <gmaxwell> yes.
 771 2014-01-05 14:36:30 <shesek> what are the other advantages?
 772 2014-01-05 14:36:53 <shesek> (I'm honestly curious)
 773 2014-01-05 14:37:04 <gmaxwell> You can speculate about some theoretical weakness that using pay to pubkey hash protects you from, but its a fairly thin protection on speculative attacks, and then you have some of the most popular wallet programs that force everyone to constantly reuse regardless.
 774 2014-01-05 14:38:16 Guest41495 is now known as pigeons
 775 2014-01-05 14:38:29 <shesek> with deterministic wallets, the general direction seems to be opposite
 776 2014-01-05 14:38:51 <brisque> name 3 deterministic wallets
 777 2014-01-05 14:38:52 <gmaxwell> go look at the actual block chain.
 778 2014-01-05 14:38:54 <shesek> looks like address reuse is going to be (mostly) gone over time (except for some use cases where it does make more sense)
 779 2014-01-05 14:38:55 saulimus has joined
 780 2014-01-05 14:39:18 <shesek> brisque, I've got one I'm working on on my harddrive, if that counts :)
 781 2014-01-05 14:39:20 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 782 2014-01-05 14:39:27 <brisque> there's literally only Electrum and Armory supporting BIP0032 at the moment.
 783 2014-01-05 14:39:30 <gmaxwell> shesek: then why are you wasting time harping over something which is actually gone and not theoretically gone in the future a maybe hopeful kinda way?
 784 2014-01-05 14:39:39 <gmaxwell> lol
 785 2014-01-05 14:39:46 giustoXricordarv has joined
 786 2014-01-05 14:39:48 <gmaxwell> brisque: neither electrum or armory support bip32 in fact.
 787 2014-01-05 14:39:51 <brisque> er, and Armory isn't bip32
 788 2014-01-05 14:39:58 <gmaxwell> nor is electrum
 789 2014-01-05 14:39:59 giustoXricordarv has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
 790 2014-01-05 14:40:10 <brisque> what is it missing? I thought it was, or was close enough to spec
 791 2014-01-05 14:40:11 <gmaxwell> (not yet)
 792 2014-01-05 14:40:24 giustoXricordarv has joined
 793 2014-01-05 14:40:29 <gmaxwell> nope, they're planning on it but it hasn't switched yet
 794 2014-01-05 14:40:31 random_cat has joined
 795 2014-01-05 14:40:54 <shesek> I'm not harping, I just saw that reddit post and was just wondering if it was kept like that for generation transaction by purpose because of some reason I couldn't think of, that's all
 796 2014-01-05 14:41:00 <brisque> well there you go. there are zero bip0032 wallets.
 797 2014-01-05 14:41:04 <shesek> and we got into a discussion that I find interesting
 798 2014-01-05 14:41:15 <gmaxwell> in any case the network is stuffed full of constant reuse and many clients (multibit, android wallet, bc.i, coinbase wallet for example)  force it on their users.
 799 2014-01-05 14:41:17 <brisque> shesek: you can't spend from the genesis block either, but nobody is ever going to get around to fixing that.
 800 2014-01-05 14:41:57 <gmaxwell> it cannot be fixed.
 801 2014-01-05 14:41:57 smash_ has joined
 802 2014-01-05 14:42:12 <gmaxwell> (except in the sense that the 21 million coin limit could be fixed :) )
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 805 2014-01-05 14:43:48 <shesek> brisque, well, there's at least one that I'm working on... though it probably doesn't count yet until its public (I'm working on one that's meant to run on old android devices that's disconnected from the network and communicates over QR codes by scanning unsigned transactions [plus some metadata about the keys used for derivation] and showing the signed ones, plus one that runs as watch-online on an online device and communicates wit
 806 2014-01-05 14:43:48 <shesek> h that one)
 807 2014-01-05 14:43:52 Ry4an has joined
 808 2014-01-05 14:44:29 <shesek> (I even hacked together an animated qr reader to fit large transactions in qr codes, which is super hacky but quite neat :P)
 809 2014-01-05 14:44:33 <brisque> shesek: that sounds tricky. why not just form the transactions on the PC and sign them with the android device?
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 811 2014-01-05 14:44:57 <brisque> concatenated QR codes?
 812 2014-01-05 14:44:59 <shesek> brisque, you need to read it back from the android somehow
 813 2014-01-05 14:45:13 <brisque> webcam?
 814 2014-01-05 14:45:21 <shesek> given that its meant to be completly disconnected from everything, a camera seems like the best way
 815 2014-01-05 14:45:55 <shesek> its possible with a webcam, but probably even less convenient than using two phones (which isn't that great usability wise tbh)
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 818 2014-01-05 14:46:24 <brisque> I wasn't arguing with QR codes for transport, more with the scanning unspent inputs. just not just make the TX on the untrusted computer and sign it on the phone?
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 820 2014-01-05 14:46:50 <brisque> same amount of data needs to go across I suppose.
 821 2014-01-05 14:47:25 <shesek> the offline device does scan the transaction (that contains the inputs), not the inputs themselves
 822 2014-01-05 14:48:01 <shesek> its an app with two modes - one is an online mode that has the master pubkey, keeps track of unspent inputs, creates transactions and broadcasts transactions
 823 2014-01-05 14:48:22 <brisque> ah. I misunderstood.
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 825 2014-01-05 14:48:38 <shesek> the other mode gets an unsigned transaction (via qr) and a list of derivation keys used for each input, and outputs the signed transaction (also via qr)
 826 2014-01-05 14:49:25 <shesek> thought I'm probably going to split it into two separate apps, they don't really share that much to keep them together
 827 2014-01-05 14:49:29 <brisque> just don't do what Armory does and require entry of the private key on the online computer. it promises to throw out the private key and only keep the public, but it's not really that comfortable to me.
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 829 2014-01-05 14:50:04 <shesek> no, definitely not, the private key should never leave the offline device
 830 2014-01-05 14:50:13 <matjeh> how do a conert a ripemd160 hash to a testnet3 address? my code is putting 0xef (239) at the start, which is the testnet prefix, then doing base58check encoding of the 21 bytes, but its not matching what bitcoind or brainwallet.org is showing
 831 2014-01-05 14:50:18 <shesek> I had an export option (via QR) that I ended up removing for that reason
 832 2014-01-05 14:50:38 <shesek> there's only a textual export that's meant to go to a paper wallet
 833 2014-01-05 14:51:19 <matjeh> *convert
 834 2014-01-05 14:51:51 <gancl> Hi!Bitcoin-abe start is so slow.Is postgresql faster than mysql used by bitcoin-abe on ubuntu?
 835 2014-01-05 14:52:06 yubrew has joined
 836 2014-01-05 14:52:07 <shesek> isn't that 0x6f?
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 838 2014-01-05 14:52:39 <shesek> (@matjeh)
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 840 2014-01-05 14:52:55 <brisque> gancl: it's going to be unusably slow no matter what you do. what's your end goal for using Abe?
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 842 2014-01-05 14:53:22 <shesek> matjeh, iirc 0xef is for private keys
 843 2014-01-05 14:53:27 <gancl> Get the bitcoin API by myself.
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 845 2014-01-05 14:53:30 <shesek> you probably need 0x6f
 846 2014-01-05 14:53:44 <matjeh> shesek: ah, of course, thanks :)
 847 2014-01-05 14:54:02 <shesek> you welcome
 848 2014-01-05 14:54:07 <brisque> gancl: what data do you need from it though, there's solutions to some problems that don't require hundreds of gigabytes of MySQL databases
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 850 2014-01-05 14:55:07 <shesek> gmaxwell, well, a lot of wallet clients forces users to do all kinds of awful things, like storing their private keys on someone else's hardware
 851 2014-01-05 14:55:09 <gancl> brisque: Getbalance of an address
 852 2014-01-05 14:55:38 <shesek> I still think the reference client should do the right thing, regardless of the current situation being less than optimal elsewhere
 853 2014-01-05 14:55:43 <brisque> gancl: if you want to do some statistics (ie, not real time) blockexplorer will do what you want in a few seconds rather than days or weeks.
 854 2014-01-05 14:56:04 <gancl> brisque: Blockchain blocks my IP for asking too many API requests
 855 2014-01-05 14:56:14 testnode9 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 856 2014-01-05 14:56:34 <gancl> brisque: So I want to do it myself.
 857 2014-01-05 14:56:45 <shesek> gancl, have you looked into searchrawtransactions? (sipa's #2802 pr)
 858 2014-01-05 14:57:09 <shesek> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2802
 859 2014-01-05 14:57:50 <brisque> gancl: do you need realtime data? knowing your intended purpose would help.
 860 2014-01-05 14:58:18 <brisque> I can't imaging any non statistical uses that would need thousands of requests an hour (or whatever their limit is).
 861 2014-01-05 14:58:22 <gancl> brisque: About hours delay is ok
 862 2014-01-05 14:59:05 <brisque> knowing the intended use would really help me answer that.
 863 2014-01-05 14:59:16 <gmaxwell> shesek: What bitcoind does (and god I can't believe we're debating the cpu miner) _IS_ right.
 864 2014-01-05 14:59:23 <brisque> check out the PR, and blockcrawler (on github).
 865 2014-01-05 14:59:59 <shesek> gmaxwell, if pool software were to implement this, would you prefer them to use pay-to-pubkey or pay-to-pubkey-hash?
 866 2014-01-05 15:00:07 <gmaxwell> shesek: you're behaving strangely and obsessively over this. The pay to ip transactions also used pubkeys directly. Pay to pubkey hash was introduced as a convience measure.
 867 2014-01-05 15:00:44 <gmaxwell> shesek: pay to pubkey is preferable for pool generations but slightly enough that its not worth the bother.
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 869 2014-01-05 15:01:36 <gmaxwell> P2Pool generated that way until the reduction in the coinbase size became preferrable for it because it produced such big coinbases already.  I believe deepbit was still doing pay to pubkey.
 870 2014-01-05 15:01:45 <shesek> I'm sorry if it comes out that way (strange and obsessive), I'm just interested in understanding your point of view
 871 2014-01-05 15:01:55 <shesek> if you prefer to stop this discussion, we can do that
 872 2014-01-05 15:03:43 <gmaxwell> You've adopted this a position which is just insane from my view, calling it "wrong". The rest of your position seems to follow logically from that, but its in no way wrong.  The paytopubkey hash form was used to make the address small enough to fit on a single line in email, which they weren't originally as pubkeys, because bitcoin didn't use point compression.
 873 2014-01-05 15:04:54 <gmaxwell> (using the pubkeys directly in addresses was about 90 characters)
 874 2014-01-05 15:05:35 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't be too surprised if we see some resurgance of pay-to-pubkey with the payment protocol, since you can specify a full scriptpubkey in it.
 875 2014-01-05 15:05:38 <robonerd> what are good web sites to stay on top of advances in bitcoin development?
 876 2014-01-05 15:06:04 <robonerd> not just the software itself, but the wider btc economy
 877 2014-01-05 15:06:04 <jakov> subscribe to the dev mailing list?
 878 2014-01-05 15:07:25 <shesek> I might be using the wrong words to describe what I mean. I realize its not "wrong" to use pay-to-pubkey and that it works just fine, but pay-to-pubkey-hash has some advantages (smaller size in the funding transaction [tho on the expense of larger combined size when/if the spending transaction is sent] and some protection against ECDSA breakage / quantum computers) and is used by default everywhere else, just seems strange to make it
 879 2014-01-05 15:07:25 <shesek> inconsistent like that
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 881 2014-01-05 15:08:23 <gmaxwell> it results in a considerably larger total transaction size— or do you think that 25 btc recently generated blocks are going to be forever unspent? :P
 882 2014-01-05 15:08:27 <shesek> but I do understand your point now - you're saying that the main advantage for smaller size to make it easier to communicate, that the ECDSA thingy isn't really important, and that when people don't actually have to deal with the address string it makes more sense to use pay-to-pubkey because it saves some size
 883 2014-01-05 15:08:54 <shesek> on the transactions, that is
 884 2014-01-05 15:09:41 <shesek> I read somewhere on the ml that it was one of the considerations behind wanting to use p2sh everywhere
 885 2014-01-05 15:09:43 <gmaxwell> Yea, the ECDSA argument is a novel one (which I believe I might have stared? damn me) that gets pumped way too strongly. Its a very theoretical improvment matched by theoretical risks (hash160 second preimages).
 886 2014-01-05 15:10:04 <shesek> that spending transactions are less likely to appear than funding transactions
 887 2014-01-05 15:10:20 <brisque> eventually spending transactions will be the only transactions.
 888 2014-01-05 15:10:42 <gmaxwell> shesek: yes, not all coins get spent, but this is not really the case for generated coins.
 889 2014-01-05 15:11:36 <gmaxwell> in any case, it's really none of anyones business what scripts people use, the diversity is good too.
 890 2014-01-05 15:12:00 <gmaxwell> (though, uh at the moment there isn't any from this, since no one is cpu mining coins. :P  but thats an aside)
 891 2014-01-05 15:12:03 <shesek> at least with the quantum computers angle, if I understand correctly (which is likely that I don't), breaking ECDSA is extremely more likely than finding preimage attacks
 892 2014-01-05 15:12:56 <gmaxwell> shesek: doesn't matter in that you still can't without a whole bunch of extra conjecture actually safely spend the coins.
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 895 2014-01-05 15:13:12 <gmaxwell> (I don't mean to say it's irrelevant in that case but it's basically a supposition on a supposition)
 896 2014-01-05 15:13:14 <shesek> plus, its not just a regular pre image attack, its a preimage attack with a public key that you can control
 897 2014-01-05 15:14:24 <shesek> the attack might still take some time to accomplish once the pubkey is known, which would allow the original transaction to get propagated mined before the attacker's
 898 2014-01-05 15:14:24 <gmaxwell> and?
 899 2014-01-05 15:14:42 <gmaxwell> and?
 900 2014-01-05 15:14:42 <gancl> gmaxwell: Does bitcoind have the API of getbalance of some one else' balance.I want that API.
 901 2014-01-05 15:14:48 <gmaxwell> gancl: no.
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 903 2014-01-05 15:15:54 <gancl> How can I get one address's balance easily?
 904 2014-01-05 15:16:04 <gmaxwell> shesek: You're missing my point. You're talking about a highly theoretical weakness, which would be runious on the system no matter what, and slightly improving it with a bunch of caveats, and I pointed out that the hash160 also has weaknesses which also have caveats.
 905 2014-01-05 15:16:08 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 906 2014-01-05 15:16:20 <shesek> so if it takes a few hours to attack ECDSA with a quantum computer, it should still be safe to spend the coins. and to the other point - even if preimage attacks are found, it still takes something more to create an pubkey that can be controlled by the attacker
 907 2014-01-05 15:16:21 <brisque> gancl: are you wanting to get the balance of many addresses?
 908 2014-01-05 15:16:28 <gmaxwell> gancl: you cannot, what you're asking for cannot be efficiently provided by the bitcoin protocol because it doesn't keep any balances.
 909 2014-01-05 15:16:28 <gancl> Yes
 910 2014-01-05 15:16:33 <shesek> <shesek> gancl, have you looked into searchrawtransactions? (sipa's #2802 pr)
 911 2014-01-05 15:16:33 <shesek> <shesek> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2802
 912 2014-01-05 15:16:50 <brisque> <brisque> check out the PR, and blockcrawler (on github).
 913 2014-01-05 15:17:17 <brisque> gancl: wouldn't be experimenting with brainwallets by any chance, would you?
 914 2014-01-05 15:17:46 <shesek> gmaxwell, yeah, I do agree that its highly theoretical and probably not worth giving a lot of weight to
 915 2014-01-05 15:18:16 <shesek> still, interesting to take that into consideration too
 916 2014-01-05 15:18:21 <gancl> brisque: Yes.But I have some problems on it: Warning: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() in C:\wamp\www\BlockCrawler\bc_layout.php on line 18
 917 2014-01-05 15:18:56 <shesek> but overall, I do agree with you that its probably better to keep using pay-to-pubkey (even though bitcoind miber isn't really used anywhere)
 918 2014-01-05 15:19:08 <brisque> gancl: oh I meant blockparser not blockcrawler.
 919 2014-01-05 15:19:40 <gancl> Thanks.I am trying it now.
 920 2014-01-05 15:19:47 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 921 2014-01-05 15:19:51 <brisque> gancl: was that a "yes" to brainwallets?
 922 2014-01-05 15:20:37 <gancl> Yes.
 923 2014-01-05 15:20:43 * brisque sighs
 924 2014-01-05 15:20:54 <brisque> we're done here. don't steal other people's money.
 925 2014-01-05 15:21:02 <gmaxwell> shesek: I'm not foreign to the other arguments you were making https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=10697.msg153521#msg153521  I just think they're becoming overplayed.
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 929 2014-01-05 15:22:55 <brisque> explains why they were getting banned from the API at any rate.
 930 2014-01-05 15:23:05 <blazon> hey guys im playing with a testnet, and i am curious can i just compile a roundrobin A entry into the DNS seeds that resolves to live nodes on my testnet, or do i need to use something like bluematt's dnsseed on github?
 931 2014-01-05 15:23:22 Milan_ has joined
 932 2014-01-05 15:23:30 <shesek> I wonder, was pay-to-pubkey-hash implemented before or after compressed pubkeys support were added?
 933 2014-01-05 15:23:37 <brisque> blazon: do you really need the DNS? you can manually connect nodes if you need to.
 934 2014-01-05 15:23:46 <gmaxwell> shesek: long long before.
 935 2014-01-05 15:23:47 <shesek> and if satoshi used compressed keys to begin with, would we even had pay-to-pubkey-hash today?
 936 2014-01-05 15:23:54 <gmaxwell> compressed pubkeys were an accident.
 937 2014-01-05 15:23:56 rdymac has joined
 938 2014-01-05 15:24:04 <blazon> brisque, i am manually connecting nodes at the moment, but i would like to test it a bit
 939 2014-01-05 15:24:08 <blazon> "play"
 940 2014-01-05 15:24:10 <gmaxwell> the system was not intended to support them. but openssl did it under our noses.
 941 2014-01-05 15:24:49 caktux has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 942 2014-01-05 15:24:52 <blazon> i guess ill just read bluematt's DNSseed, and figure it out
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 944 2014-01-05 15:24:56 <brisque> blazon: I'm not sure, I imagine you could find the source of the DNS server somewhere if you really wanted to.
 945 2014-01-05 15:25:04 <blazon> yea
 946 2014-01-05 15:25:04 <gmaxwell> There have been historical patent concerns with them— though there is strong evidence that they were always bogus at least outside of specialize applications (original ecc publications in the 80s point them out)
 947 2014-01-05 15:25:17 <blazon> bluematts is just a PDNS edit
 948 2014-01-05 15:25:20 <blazon> or so it appears
 949 2014-01-05 15:25:22 <gmaxwell> We didn't know bitcoin supported compressed pubkeys until some were in the chain.
 950 2014-01-05 15:25:47 <gmaxwell> Once they were in the chain we couldn't take out the support, so— might as well enjoy the advantages since nodes were stuck with the code for supporting them.
 951 2014-01-05 15:25:57 SwampTony has joined
 952 2014-01-05 15:25:58 <gmaxwell> but that wasn't until 2011.
 953 2014-01-05 15:26:12 <shesek> heh really? that's an interesting piece of history, I never heard that before
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 958 2014-01-05 15:27:07 <shesek> was it not intended to support them on purpose, or its just that support wasn't added at that point?
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 960 2014-01-05 15:27:39 <shesek> I mean, was it considered and rejected and then just started working anyway?
 961 2014-01-05 15:27:42 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 962 2014-01-05 15:28:20 <gmaxwell> not having them is bitcoin prehistory, — before bitcoins publication so no one knows the exact details.
 963 2014-01-05 15:29:32 <sipa> compressed pubkeys were added in 0.5.0 iirc
 964 2014-01-05 15:29:50 <gmaxwell> I suppose it's really good that we got hash160 addresses though, since otherwise I bet there would be a lot of implementations without script at all.
 965 2014-01-05 15:29:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: generating compressed pubkeys.
 966 2014-01-05 15:30:43 <gmaxwell> (validating them would have been a hardforking change… :))
 967 2014-01-05 15:31:27 <shesek> you think that hash160 addresses would've ever been added if compressed pubkeys were used from the beginning?
 968 2014-01-05 15:31:43 <sipa> maybe not
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 970 2014-01-05 15:31:52 <sipa> but that doesn't matter now
 971 2014-01-05 15:31:53 <gmaxwell> no, I think they likely wouldn't have been.
 972 2014-01-05 15:31:59 <gmaxwell> though I'm glad they were.
 973 2014-01-05 15:32:13 <sipa> maybe we wouldn't have come up with p2sh either in that case
 974 2014-01-05 15:32:20 <gmaxwell> right.
 975 2014-01-05 15:32:35 <sipa> or merkle-ast scripts :p
 976 2014-01-05 15:32:40 <gmaxwell> maybe script would have been removed completely at the time of the LSHIFT bug.
 977 2014-01-05 15:33:00 <shesek> I don't think satoshi would've let that happen
 978 2014-01-05 15:33:08 <shesek> (was he still around at the time of the LSHIFT bug?)
 979 2014-01-05 15:33:15 <sipa> yes
 980 2014-01-05 15:33:20 <gmaxwell> the disabled op_codes were irreversable and really handicapped things.
 981 2014-01-05 15:33:28 <shesek> he seems to have had big plans for scripts from the beginning
 982 2014-01-05 15:33:47 <sipa> i don't think satoshi considered re-enabling scriot opcodes as a problem
 983 2014-01-05 15:34:05 <gmaxwell> might not have been if they'd been reenabled soon.
 984 2014-01-05 15:34:12 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 985 2014-01-05 15:34:28 <sipa> indeed
 986 2014-01-05 15:35:23 <gmaxwell> now there are a dozen implementations that would need to be updated, including ones running on critical infrastructure. Even doing them as a soft-forking change hidden via a p2sh like trick seems really hard now.
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 994 2014-01-05 15:42:47 <shesek> well, I'm off. thanks for an interesting discussion gmaxwell, and I hope that I didn't annoy you too much :)
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 999 2014-01-05 15:48:29 <gmaxwell> shesek: nah it's fine. I thought you were going to drive me nuts forever about it for a bit.
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1007 2014-01-05 16:05:38 <jgarzik> 2014-01-05 15:55:28 receive version message: /Snoopy:0.1/: version 60001, blocks=0, us=69.64.34.118:8333, them=82.130.102.160:8333, peer=82.130.102.160:59139
1008 2014-01-05 16:05:45 <jgarzik> Snoopy?  A sniffer, perhaps?
1009 2014-01-05 16:05:57 <brisque> did it stick around?
1010 2014-01-05 16:06:37 <jgarzik> yes
1011 2014-01-05 16:07:12 gmaxwell has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1012 2014-01-05 16:07:39 <brisque> hasn't ever connected to my big node as far as my logs go back.
1013 2014-01-05 16:07:44 <jgarzik> receive version message: /getaddr.bitnodes.io:0.1/: version 70001, blocks=278768, us=69.64.34.118:8333, them=0.0.0.0:0, peer=192.184.87.131:50615
1014 2014-01-05 16:08:02 <jgarzik> receive version message: /BitCoinJ:0.8SNAPSHOT/Blockchain:3.63/: version 70001, blocks=278765, us=127.0.0.1:8333, them=127.0.0.1:8333, peer=50.137.141.201:47480
1015 2014-01-05 16:08:30 * jgarzik posts the odd ducks
1016 2014-01-05 16:08:39 <brisque> jgarzik: hold on, blockchain.info uses bitcoinj?
1017 2014-01-05 16:08:52 <sipa> they do?
1018 2014-01-05 16:08:55 sassamo has joined
1019 2014-01-05 16:09:07 <sipa> they also use bitcoind and bitcoin-js afaik
1020 2014-01-05 16:09:37 <djoot> is it possible to extract the public key from only the signature generated by bitcoind?
1021 2014-01-05 16:09:56 <brisque> I just assumed, /BitCoinJ:0.8SNAPSHOT/Blockchain:3.63/ sounds an awful lot like blockchain.info
1022 2014-01-05 16:10:15 Nesetalis has joined
1023 2014-01-05 16:10:23 Nesetalis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1024 2014-01-05 16:10:40 Nesetalis has joined
1025 2014-01-05 16:10:43 Eagle[TM] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1026 2014-01-05 16:10:59 Nesetalis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1027 2014-01-05 16:11:13 <jgarzik> receive version message: /bitcoinseeder:0.01/: version 60000, blocks=230000, us=69.64.34.118:8333, them=0.0.0.0:0, peer=178.79.147.171:52082
1028 2014-01-05 16:11:13 <jgarzik> receive version message: /Snoopy:0.1/: version 60001, blocks=0, us=69.64.34.118:8333, them=82.130.102.160:8333, peer=82.130.102.160:59369
1029 2014-01-05 16:11:14 Nesetalis has joined
1030 2014-01-05 16:11:29 spokesz has joined
1031 2014-01-05 16:11:31 <jgarzik> disconnect+reconnect for snoopy, from same IP
1032 2014-01-05 16:11:41 <jgarzik> brisque, that's my guess, as well
1033 2014-01-05 16:12:06 <jgarzik> but I don't have any insight into blockchain.info backend software
1034 2014-01-05 16:12:42 <brisque> jgarzik: it doesn't make sense from what I know of it
1035 2014-01-05 16:12:54 <sipa> that ip gmaxwell posted for it belongs to eth zurich
1036 2014-01-05 16:13:35 <brisque> the Snoopy one is in Zurich too
1037 2014-01-05 16:13:50 gmaxwell has joined
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1041 2014-01-05 16:16:08 <jgarzik> I need to resurrect my patch for watching nodes, i.e. logging their P2P commands
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1044 2014-01-05 16:17:13 <brisque> jgarzik: interesting insight for the day, blockchain.info's bitcoin nodes crash every 30-40 minutes
1045 2014-01-05 16:17:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I finally got around to reading a bit about Merkle trees
1046 2014-01-05 16:17:36 <jgarzik> brisque, how was this conclusion drawn?
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1048 2014-01-05 16:18:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is 625fb14b04bbecc1838164f9b85321cfd2de549ab4a9d22c4d61f82c07a1c9bb the Merkle root for the array ["Hello", "world!", "This", "is", "a", "test", "to", "see", "if", "Micha", "understands", "Merkle", "trees", "properly", "or", "not."] ?
1049 2014-01-05 16:18:31 SwampTony has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1050 2014-01-05 16:18:34 <brisque> jgarzik: there's two or three, and if you watch the "connected nodes" page they'll get a connected time of 30 minutes or so before the associated node crashes. they have terrible time synchronisation so the "connected time" starts negative 10 minutes.
1051 2014-01-05 16:18:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(sha256)
1052 2014-01-05 16:19:04 SwampTony has joined
1053 2014-01-05 16:19:09 elgrecoF- has joined
1054 2014-01-05 16:19:18 <brisque> jgarzik: just from sitting and watching, the connection limit on one node is 500, either the other one is higher or there's three nodes and the other two get lose in the noise.
1055 2014-01-05 16:20:26 <jgarzik> receive version message: /Ufasoft Coin:0.76/: version 70001, blocks=-1, us=69.64.34.118:8333, them=0.0.0.0:0, peer=24.52.250.62:59500
1056 2014-01-05 16:20:33 patcon_ is now known as patcon
1057 2014-01-05 16:20:34 <jgarzik> you don't hear about ufasoft so much anymore
1058 2014-01-05 16:20:44 <sipa> is it still alive?
1059 2014-01-05 16:22:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Actually, a better way
1060 2014-01-05 16:22:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Can someone take a look at this and let me know if I did it right?
1061 2014-01-05 16:22:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|http://ideone.com/xjFyPx
1062 2014-01-05 16:23:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(might be afk for a bit, I'll bbs)
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1074 2014-01-05 16:38:28 <robonerd> is btxtrader.com legit?
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1094 2014-01-05 17:05:46 <brisque> jgarzik: there we go. their node crashed again
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1096 2014-01-05 17:12:15 <djoot> so, you can extract a public key from a message and a signature. I was under the impression that in order to verify a ecdsa signature you need the public key and the message, is this wrong or is the public key encoded in the signature that bitcoind generates? Can someone alleviate my confusion?
1097 2014-01-05 17:13:23 <brisque> djoot: transactions contain the public key, signed messages with bitcoin-qt do not
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1099 2014-01-05 17:14:52 <djoot> brisque: but if you have the message and the signature, you can extract the public key, so I'm still confused
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1112 2014-01-05 17:28:10 <djoot> < sipa> a bitcoin signature is (ecdsa signature, ecdsa pubkey)
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1114 2014-01-05 17:28:22 <djoot> < sipa> a bitcoin pubkey is (hash(ecdsa pubkey))
1115 2014-01-05 17:28:25 <djoot> so... hmmm
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1123 2014-01-05 17:40:24 <Luke-Jr> shesek: CLI is far more unsighted-friendly than GUI
1124 2014-01-05 17:41:17 <sipa> djoot: message signatures use a technique called key recovery
1125 2014-01-05 17:41:41 <sipa> djoot: where from the message being signed and the signature, you can derive the public key it was signed with
1126 2014-01-05 17:42:02 <sipa> (assuming it is valid; if it is invalid, you'll get a random pubkey as output)
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1129 2014-01-05 17:46:21 <djoot> sipa: thanks, does this mean that there is no function: pubkey = f(bitcoin signature), assuming the bitcoin signature is valid of course
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1131 2014-01-05 17:47:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Could anyone tell me if I'm correctly understanding Merkle trees?
1132 2014-01-05 17:47:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is 625fb14b04bbecc1838164f9b85321cfd2de549ab4a9d22c4d61f82c07a1c9bb the Merkle root for the array ["Hello", "world!", "This", "is", "a", "test", "to", "see", "if", "Micha", "understands", "Merkle", "trees", "properly", "or", "not."] ?
1133 2014-01-05 17:47:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(code at http://ideone.com/xjFyPx )
1134 2014-01-05 17:49:18 <djoot> basically, I want to know if I can safely give out a bitcoin signature, and know that the public key can not be extracted without knowing the message
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1136 2014-01-05 17:53:58 <Luke-Jr> djoot: please don't put data in the blockchain.
1137 2014-01-05 17:56:13 <djoot> Luke-Jr: not planning to
1138 2014-01-05 17:56:36 <Luke-Jr> just making sure ;)
1139 2014-01-05 17:57:14 <sipa> djoot: that is correct
1140 2014-01-05 18:01:35 <djoot> sipa: cheers! If you PM me a bitcoin adress I'll send you a small token of appreciation :)
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1166 2014-01-05 18:30:24 <jakov> maybe people could put tip addresses in their irc realname
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1169 2014-01-05 18:34:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Do blk#####.dat files have netmagic in them?
1170 2014-01-05 18:35:51 hibitcoin has joined
1171 2014-01-05 18:36:58 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: yes
1172 2014-01-05 18:37:45 super3 has joined
1173 2014-01-05 18:39:24 super3_ has joined
1174 2014-01-05 18:42:01 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: yes
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1176 2014-01-05 18:42:36 <sipa> magic bytes + 4-byte length descriptor in front of every block
1177 2014-01-05 18:43:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Interesting...
1178 2014-01-05 18:44:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Given that there's netmagic in the blk#####.dat files, it's not surprising that if I build with different netmagic, the files aren't cross-compatible and loadblock=ing one from the other doesn't work
1179 2014-01-05 18:44:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What *is* surprising is that if I copy the entire blocks/ and chainstate/ over, it seems to work
1180 2014-01-05 18:45:45 super3_ has left ()
1181 2014-01-05 18:45:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, but then a -reindex clears it
1182 2014-01-05 18:46:01 super3 has joined
1183 2014-01-05 18:46:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, I see what's happening
1184 2014-01-05 18:46:06 <super3> curious what bitcoin devs are available for freelancing? many people want bitcoin things built, and i don't have enough time in the day.
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1189 2014-01-05 18:49:24 <sipa> super3: that's no different for me (and i presume many others) :D
1190 2014-01-05 18:49:56 <sipa> super3: if i had time, i'd already spend it on writing things bitcoin that i myself find interesting...
1191 2014-01-05 18:50:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does anyone have a minute to look and let me know if I've understood Merkle trees correctly? I finally got around to looking up what they were
1192 2014-01-05 18:51:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|A short script that I wrote is at http://ideone.com/xjFyPx
1193 2014-01-05 18:52:22 <super3> sipa, im curious what you find interesting. what would you develop if you had unlimited time.
1194 2014-01-05 18:52:42 <super3> personally, bitcoin agents are my holy grail
1195 2014-01-05 18:54:22 <sipa> depending on what unlimited is, and whether i need to justify it for someone to pay for it... finish headers-first and parallel downloading, optimize database caches, modularize the source code, implement bip32 wallets... and if it didn't matter at all, i think i'd weite my own altcoin from scratch
1196 2014-01-05 18:54:38 <sipa> and probably a dozen other things along the way
1197 2014-01-05 18:55:08 <jakov> what are database caches?
1198 2014-01-05 18:56:54 n9957 has joined
1199 2014-01-05 18:57:14 <grau> sipa: hi, is there some expected process of headers-first such as fetch 5000 headers do parallel download, while fetching next 5000 ?
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1206 2014-01-05 18:59:18 <sipa> grau: i do them independently
1207 2014-01-05 18:59:25 <sipa> fetch headers as they come
1208 2014-01-05 18:59:41 easye has joined
1209 2014-01-05 18:59:51 <sipa> and then download blocks that aren't verified yet along the known best header chain
1210 2014-01-05 19:00:31 greenspa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1211 2014-01-05 19:00:40 <sipa> so yes, headers and blocks are downloaded simultaneously
1212 2014-01-05 19:00:46 <sipa> but necessarily from the same peers
1213 2014-01-05 19:00:49 <grau> assuming you distribute download requests to n peers, you will have some timeout and resubmit the request to a faster peer?
1214 2014-01-05 19:01:09 <sipa> only when one peer stalls, in which case you disconnect him too
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1216 2014-01-05 19:01:24 cayspekko has joined
1217 2014-01-05 19:01:24 <sipa> (as otherwise you end up downloading blocks twice)
1218 2014-01-05 19:02:14 kenan has left (afk!~kenansula@s16365416.onlinehome-server.info|)
1219 2014-01-05 19:02:20 <grau> if headers are from best chain, then you could ask any peer for a block, why do you say "but necessarily from the same peers" ?
1220 2014-01-05 19:02:31 <sipa> right
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1222 2014-01-05 19:02:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: you mean "but *not* necessarily", I think?
1223 2014-01-05 19:02:46 <sipa> no, i mean it's not synchronized like you make it sound
1224 2014-01-05 19:02:54 <sipa> oh
1225 2014-01-05 19:03:03 <sipa> indeed, NOT necessarily
1226 2014-01-05 19:03:07 <grau> ok
1227 2014-01-05 19:03:24 <grau> thanks
1228 2014-01-05 19:03:33 <sipa> with earlier tests, i had the best header chain in 1 or 2 minutes
1229 2014-01-05 19:03:46 <sipa> while obviously downloading blocks took significantly longer
1230 2014-01-05 19:05:16 <grau> so download will be like torrent assembles a file, receiving in any order from any peer.
1231 2014-01-05 19:05:43 <grau> validation can proceed on consecutive pieces
1232 2014-01-05 19:05:57 <grau> from 0 to n
1233 2014-01-05 19:06:17 porquilho has joined
1234 2014-01-05 19:06:34 <grau> n being the highest block received without gap
1235 2014-01-05 19:06:44 <sipa> yup
1236 2014-01-05 19:06:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|grau: Basically, AIUI, you do all the PoW validation ahead of time
1237 2014-01-05 19:06:56 <sipa> i'm using a moving window of 1000 blovks or so
1238 2014-01-05 19:07:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And you can get SPV security right from the start
1239 2014-01-05 19:07:13 Blackreign has joined
1240 2014-01-05 19:07:28 <sipa> so blocks up to n+1000 are requested from all peers, when n is the last fully validated one
1241 2014-01-05 19:07:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But then you can fill in the actual block data (theoretically) in any order at all
1242 2014-01-05 19:07:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|All you need to do is verify that each block matches its header
1243 2014-01-05 19:08:05 <sipa> well, full validation still needs the blocks consecutively
1244 2014-01-05 19:08:23 <sipa> but PoW can happen ahead of time, with just the headers
1245 2014-01-05 19:08:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, wait
1246 2014-01-05 19:08:28 <sipa> and some other checks too
1247 2014-01-05 19:08:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right, to go from SPV to full security you need to process all the transactions
1248 2014-01-05 19:09:03 <sipa> headers-first is not SPV, but it's close
1249 2014-01-05 19:09:27 <grau> you could make it work SPV and start an async task upgrading to full node later
1250 2014-01-05 19:09:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: I thought I'd seen it described as SPV security?
1251 2014-01-05 19:09:29 <sipa> SPV still needs partial block fetching of transactions relevant to wallets
1252 2014-01-05 19:09:35 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1253 2014-01-05 19:09:36 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1254 2014-01-05 19:09:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or was that something else?
1255 2014-01-05 19:09:47 <sipa> grau: that's the ultimate goal indeed
1256 2014-01-05 19:10:03 <grau> sounds great
1257 2014-01-05 19:10:07 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: headers-first is just how the full node synchronizes, it doesn't change the wallet
1258 2014-01-05 19:10:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah
1259 2014-01-05 19:10:22 n9957 has quit (Quit: TurboIRC for Android. Available @ Google Play.)
1260 2014-01-05 19:10:30 <sipa> if you have headers-first + an SPV wallet you can do the gradual upgrading from spv to full
1261 2014-01-05 19:10:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right, that's what I was thinking of
1262 2014-01-05 19:11:13 <grau> even block download could be deferred to full node upgrade
1263 2014-01-05 19:11:22 <sipa> yeah
1264 2014-01-05 19:11:31 <sipa> you get a first single headers sync
1265 2014-01-05 19:11:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|grau: Are you familiar with merkle trees, by any chance?
1266 2014-01-05 19:11:51 <sipa> and then you have the option between nothing, block download, and spv wallet download
1267 2014-01-05 19:11:54 smash_ has joined
1268 2014-01-05 19:11:58 <sipa> potentially a combination of them
1269 2014-01-05 19:12:13 <grau> michagogo|cloud:as far as it was needed to write a bitcoin implementation.
1270 2014-01-05 19:12:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|grau: Could you tell me if I'm getting the concept right: http://ideone.com/xjFyPx
1271 2014-01-05 19:13:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(I finally got around to looking up what they actually were...)
1272 2014-01-05 19:14:34 <grau> https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode/blob/master/api/src/main/java/com/bitsofproof/supernode/common/BinaryAggregator.java
1273 2014-01-05 19:14:50 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: i don't know tgat programming language
1274 2014-01-05 19:14:56 <sipa> but it may be conceptually right
1275 2014-01-05 19:15:08 <sipa> there's no handling of odd numbers of elements though
1276 2014-01-05 19:15:28 <grau> is the essence the merge is sha256
1277 2014-01-05 19:15:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Yeah, this is just very bare-bones, to see if I understand correctly
1278 2014-01-05 19:15:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|How are odd numbers of elements handled?
1279 2014-01-05 19:16:20 <grau> double the last
1280 2014-01-05 19:17:48 <sipa> sha256d(x || x)
1281 2014-01-05 19:18:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|x || x?
1282 2014-01-05 19:18:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What does || mean in this context?
1283 2014-01-05 19:18:59 justonegy has left ()
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1286 2014-01-05 19:19:12 <grau> concat
1287 2014-01-05 19:19:17 paracyst has joined
1288 2014-01-05 19:19:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ah
1289 2014-01-05 19:21:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, if you reload the page, it's tweaked slightly
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1292 2014-01-05 19:23:24 <grau> might be ok, but I am also not familiar with the language
1293 2014-01-05 19:24:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, wait
1294 2014-01-05 19:24:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Looking at the output, I did something wrong
1295 2014-01-05 19:25:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|21 words of input, should be 11 pairs
1296 2014-01-05 19:25:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It is 11 pairs
1297 2014-01-05 19:25:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But those don't come out as 11 hashes
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1300 2014-01-05 19:26:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|6 hashes emerge o_O
1301 2014-01-05 19:26:08 <grau> you have to re-apply recursively until you remain with a single hash
1302 2014-01-05 19:27:29 <Alina-malina> http://imgur.com/NembtAq,kWX7fCI#0    look at this bitcoin traders
1303 2014-01-05 19:27:31 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1304 2014-01-05 19:27:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|grau: That's what it does
1305 2014-01-05 19:27:34 <Alina-malina> http://imgur.com/NembtAq,kWX7fCI#1
1306 2014-01-05 19:27:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|until items.flatten.length==1 do
1307 2014-01-05 19:28:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, wait a minute.
1308 2014-01-05 19:28:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Looks like for some reason it's taking [[["Hello", "world!"], ["This", "is"]], [["a", "test"], ["to", "see"]], [["if", "Micha"], ["understands", "Merkle"]], [["trees", "properly"], ["or", "not,"]], [["with", "odd"], ["numbers", "of"]], [["items."]]]
1309 2014-01-05 19:28:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|pairs of pairs
1310 2014-01-05 19:30:04 <grau> instead you shoud create pairs and replace them with thier hash, than do recursively the same
1311 2014-01-05 19:31:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I might have fixed it by flattening the input in the make_pairs function
1312 2014-01-05 19:31:48 <grau> functional programming is hard
1313 2014-01-05 19:31:57 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|is a programming noob
1314 2014-01-05 19:32:25 <Alina-malina> michagogo|cloud, what are you trying to do?
1315 2014-01-05 19:32:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Alina-malina: Understand Merkle trees
1316 2014-01-05 19:32:39 <Alina-malina> any luck?
1317 2014-01-05 19:33:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Maybe.
1318 2014-01-05 19:33:19 <Alina-malina> michagogo|cloud, when you understand everything please explain to me as well how this stuff works
1319 2014-01-05 19:34:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|grau: I *think* that's what I'm already doing
1320 2014-01-05 19:34:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The next_level function
1321 2014-01-05 19:34:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Takes an input of an array
1322 2014-01-05 19:35:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And returns input.collect {|x|; hash_together(*x);}
1323 2014-01-05 19:36:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|An array's collect function runs a code block on each member of an array, and returns a new array of the outputs
1324 2014-01-05 19:36:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo||x| says that the member of the array being acted on should be accessible, as x
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1327 2014-01-05 19:37:02 <grau> what is this language?
1328 2014-01-05 19:37:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ruby
1329 2014-01-05 19:37:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hash_together(*x) calls the hash_together function, with the argument *x, where * is the splat operator
1330 2014-01-05 19:37:33 <grau> looks like an awful mix of functional and procedural
1331 2014-01-05 19:37:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(expanding the array into a list of arguments)
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1333 2014-01-05 19:37:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|grau: Hmm?
1334 2014-01-05 19:38:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(again, I haven't done much coding, and my style is probably awful)
1335 2014-01-05 19:38:35 galt has joined
1336 2014-01-05 19:38:53 <grau> I mean the input.collect is a funcional http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming construct while the rest you wrote is procedural
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1338 2014-01-05 19:39:02 <grau> such mix is always hard to follow.
1339 2014-01-05 19:39:12 <grau> try a simpler language for start or decide on style
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1341 2014-01-05 19:39:32 <grau> The algorithm is rather simple:
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1350 2014-01-05 19:40:32 <grau> pair an array of objects and replace them with their peir-hashes (double the last if needed). Repeat until you remain with a single output.
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1363 2014-01-05 19:41:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'm not sure I understand the difference
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1365 2014-01-05 19:42:02 <grau> of what?
1366 2014-01-05 19:42:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|functional and procedural
1367 2014-01-05 19:42:52 <grau> procedural: loops and mutable variables
1368 2014-01-05 19:43:22 <grau> functional: recursion (substitution) with immutable variables.
1369 2014-01-05 19:43:46 <grau> functional is harder for beginner, but is great for multi-threading
1370 2014-01-05 19:44:07 <grau> writing the mix of the two creates a write-only code. that is wyou write and nobody can read.
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1372 2014-01-05 19:44:37 <galt> job security ;P
1373 2014-01-05 19:45:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'm not sure I get how it's hard to follow: for each pair of items (or item), hash them together and return an array with the hashes
1374 2014-01-05 19:45:50 <grau> it seems hard to follow otherwise you who wrote it would know why it does not work.
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1376 2014-01-05 19:46:00 <midnightmagic> lol
1377 2014-01-05 19:46:08 <midnightmagic> someone doesn't like OCaml :)
1378 2014-01-05 19:46:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|grau: I think I know why it didn't work
1379 2014-01-05 19:47:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Because make_pairs didn't organize something into pairs
1380 2014-01-05 19:47:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It blindly took its input and make it into pairs
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1382 2014-01-05 19:48:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If it was already in pairs, it just stuck it into another array
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1384 2014-01-05 19:48:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Actually, it's fine for it to do that
1385 2014-01-05 19:49:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The problem is, that before the "until items.flatten.length==1" loop, I had "items=make_pairs(inputs)"
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1395 2014-01-05 19:50:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The problem had nothing to do with the "input.collect {|x|; hash_together(*x);}" function at all
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1642 2014-01-05 20:53:25 <ioiow> IIRC, there's a proposal that significantly reduces the size of the blockchain. I can't find a link to said proposal though. Can someone help me out?
1643 2014-01-05 20:54:31 <sipa> nothing i know of
1644 2014-01-05 20:54:33 ConvivialMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1645 2014-01-05 20:54:48 <sipa> there are mechanisms for lightweight nodes that don't need to download ecerything
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1648 2014-01-05 20:55:14 <sipa> and there are mechanisms for pruning, allowing nodes to delete parts of the chain after downloading and verifying
1649 2014-01-05 20:55:24 <sipa> but actually reducing the size of the chain, no idea
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1700 2014-01-05 21:25:24 <Cylta> what is the best way to add bitcoin account functionality to a website? (deposit, withdraw, current balance)?
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1722 2014-01-05 22:01:17 <kwood> What's the best way to discover if a given block has been orphaned? Looking at the bitcoind source code it appears getblock will just mark it with 0 confirmations?
1723 2014-01-05 22:03:37 <sipa> indeed
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1727 2014-01-05 22:05:30 <kwood> Not sure how I'd tell the difference between a block that just didn't have confirmations yet and an orphan.  I guess I could compare the # of blocks from "getinfo" rpc call with the block height of my block… is that the best way?
1728 2014-01-05 22:06:06 <wallet42> you can not tell if the last block is an orphan or not
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1731 2014-01-05 22:09:48 <sipa> kwood: a block gives itself a confirmation
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1733 2014-01-05 22:09:59 <sipa> if it is in the main chain, it always has at least one confirmation
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1752 2014-01-05 22:19:46 <kwood> spia: Thanks!
1753 2014-01-05 22:19:51 <kwood> sipa: Thanks
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1786 2014-01-05 22:36:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;later tell grau Hmm, Wikipedia's [[Comparison of programming paradigms]] says that Ruby is neither functional nor procedural -- it's object oriented.
1787 2014-01-05 22:36:48 <gribble> Error: "Comparison" is not a valid command.
1788 2014-01-05 22:36:55 cysm has joined
1789 2014-01-05 22:37:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;later tell grau Hmm, Wikipedia's \[\[Comparison of programming paradigms\]\] says that Ruby is neither functional nor procedural -- it's object oriented.
1790 2014-01-05 22:37:08 <gribble> Error: "Comparison" is not a valid command.
1791 2014-01-05 22:37:11 <tommygunner> wa
1792 2014-01-05 22:37:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;later tell grau Hmm, Wikipedia's <Comparison of programming paradigms> article says that Ruby is neither functional nor procedural -- it's object oriented.
1793 2014-01-05 22:37:26 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1794 2014-01-05 22:37:29 <tommygunner> err wp
1795 2014-01-05 22:39:05 <tommygunner> like so: ;;later tell grau Hmm, Wikipedia's [wp Comparison of programming paradigms] article says that Ruby is neither functional nor procedural -- it's object oriented.
1796 2014-01-05 22:39:06 <tommygunner> :P
1797 2014-01-05 22:39:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tommygunner: meh
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1802 2014-01-05 22:41:35 <sipa> no programming language is purely object-oriented, except for smalltalk
1803 2014-01-05 22:42:05 <sipa> no programming language is purely functional, except for lambda calculus
1804 2014-01-05 22:42:23 <Cylta> but what about Haskell?...
1805 2014-01-05 22:42:52 <sipa> haskell is a very nice imperative programming language
1806 2014-01-05 22:42:57 <sipa> it's also a very nice functional one
1807 2014-01-05 22:43:26 <sipa> you can program object orientedly in C too if you want to (look at gtk)
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1809 2014-01-05 22:44:02 <sipa> or functionally in java (create an anonymous Callable object instance in every statement)
1810 2014-01-05 22:44:18 <sipa> or procedurally in haskell (use the IO monad)
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1816 2014-01-05 22:49:37 <Anduck> in what state is the new fee system?
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1818 2014-01-05 22:49:52 <Anduck> is it "ready" and being tested or still under development?
1819 2014-01-05 22:50:08 <Anduck> just curious... current 0.0001 min txfee is 10 cents
1820 2014-01-05 22:50:46 <sipa> unsure whether the min relay fees still matter much at all
1821 2014-01-05 22:50:58 <sipa> if you go below, it takes ages to get mined, i think?
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1831 2014-01-05 22:55:58 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it's fairly random sitll
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1833 2014-01-05 22:56:20 <phantomcircuit> the variance in times between blocks is enough that zero fee txs broadcast at the right moment will get included
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1835 2014-01-05 23:00:47 <sipa> average fee/kb in the last few blocks is around 0.0003 BTC
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1844 2014-01-05 23:05:03 <phantomcircuit> sipa, iirc it tends to be in groups
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1846 2014-01-05 23:05:15 <phantomcircuit> (which is the default behavior)
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