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  54 2014-01-06 00:55:14 <TheLordOfTime> anyone got any spare testnet coins they can send me?  I need some to test more things.
  55 2014-01-06 00:55:26 * TheLordOfTime would mine it, but doesn't want to set his laptop aflame in the process
  56 2014-01-06 00:55:49 <jakov> how long would it take to mine on average? just wondering since i was thinking of downloading and running it
  57 2014-01-06 00:56:01 <TheLordOfTime> jakov: depends on the difficulty
  58 2014-01-06 00:56:07 <jakov> it is 1
  59 2014-01-06 00:56:12 <TheLordOfTime> it says 16 right now
  60 2014-01-06 00:56:16 <jakov> : o
  61 2014-01-06 00:56:19 <TheLordOfTime> in the rpc console
  62 2014-01-06 00:56:23 <jakov> then blockexplorer is wrong
  63 2014-01-06 00:56:29 <TheLordOfTime> i think it goes to 1 every 20 minutes there's no blocks though IDK
  64 2014-01-06 00:56:35 <TheLordOfTime> others are more well versed on that
  65 2014-01-06 00:56:48 <TheLordOfTime> if i had even one of those small 332MH/s miners i'd be able to mine testnet but meh
  66 2014-01-06 00:56:59 <TheLordOfTime> bfgminer reports the diff as 16
  67 2014-01-06 00:57:28 squeakytoy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  68 2014-01-06 00:57:31 <robonerd> is p2pool tyoe of mining as good or better than pool mining?
  69 2014-01-06 00:57:53 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  70 2014-01-06 00:57:54 <robonerd> would a private group of 20 earn more in their own private pool or all hooking up to a decentralized pool?
  71 2014-01-06 00:58:15 <jakov> p2pool take a fee
  72 2014-01-06 00:58:21 <robonerd> it does?
  73 2014-01-06 00:58:27 <jakov> so if your private group is large enough to not care about variance
  74 2014-01-06 00:58:28 <robonerd> i thought that was an advantage to it, no operator fee
  75 2014-01-06 00:58:38 <jakov> its website says 2%
  76 2014-01-06 00:58:47 <jakov> although that website is squatting apparently
  77 2014-01-06 00:58:53 <robonerd> how many small/mid size miners would it take to reach a point where variance averages out
  78 2014-01-06 00:59:08 <jakov> variance always averages out
  79 2014-01-06 00:59:18 <jakov> work out the time between blocks
  80 2014-01-06 00:59:23 <jakov> for the hashpower you have
  81 2014-01-06 00:59:37 <jakov> or rather, choose a time between blocks you're happy with and work out the required hash power
  82 2014-01-06 00:59:44 <robonerd> is there mining software that'll auto tune this stuff?
  83 2014-01-06 00:59:59 <robonerd> (ya, also a nice approach)
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  88 2014-01-06 01:06:04 <Lifeofcray> guys, i was thinking about something
  89 2014-01-06 01:06:10 <Lifeofcray> how does big online wallets
  90 2014-01-06 01:06:21 raad2871 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  91 2014-01-06 01:06:22 <Lifeofcray> handle wallets that's "lost"
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  93 2014-01-06 01:07:06 <Lifeofcray> because i'm sure that most big wallets stores all coins at the same place and stores peoples balances in a database
  94 2014-01-06 01:07:15 <Lifeofcray> so what happens if a guy dies?
  95 2014-01-06 01:07:27 <Lifeofcray> or does log in for 2 years, 5 years, 10 years?
  96 2014-01-06 01:07:33 <Lifeofcray> doesnt
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 116 2014-01-06 01:28:49 <jakov> Lifeofcray it will just stay there
 117 2014-01-06 01:28:53 <filadome> what's the input string for generating hashes?
 118 2014-01-06 01:28:55 <filadome> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_work
 119 2014-01-06 01:28:59 <jakov> until the company collapses and all its assets sold off
 120 2014-01-06 01:29:06 <jakov> which given a long enough time scale will happen
 121 2014-01-06 01:29:19 <jakov> filadome the blockheader iirc
 122 2014-01-06 01:29:44 <filadome> so it's the block header and some random input?
 123 2014-01-06 01:29:56 <jakov> the block header contains a nonce field
 124 2014-01-06 01:30:05 <jakov> which is incremented while searching for the right hash
 125 2014-01-06 01:30:27 rdymac has joined
 126 2014-01-06 01:30:47 ColErr has joined
 127 2014-01-06 01:31:18 <ColErr> Quick question, do miners go all the way through the hash algorithms?
 128 2014-01-06 01:31:44 <ColErr> or do they look at intermediate values to determine if it will be a good hash first?
 129 2014-01-06 01:32:00 <jakov> intermediate values of what?
 130 2014-01-06 01:32:14 <ColErr> of the hash, the working value
 131 2014-01-06 01:32:22 <jakov> there is not intermediate value
 132 2014-01-06 01:32:33 <jakov> the proof of work is basically bruteforcing
 133 2014-01-06 01:32:50 <jakov> thats easy to check but hard to do
 134 2014-01-06 01:33:00 <ColErr> when you calculate SHA, there are values before the last step
 135 2014-01-06 01:33:26 <jakov> oh right
 136 2014-01-06 01:33:27 <ColErr> it's still brute forcing, you you can save a couple calculations by not computing the whole hash
 137 2014-01-06 01:33:32 brickand has joined
 138 2014-01-06 01:33:42 <jakov> im pretty sure nothing like that happens
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 146 2014-01-06 01:36:51 <filadome> is there a website that has the miner input data in JSON?
 147 2014-01-06 01:39:08 <filadome> this is what i was looking for: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
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 151 2014-01-06 01:41:52 <forrestv> robonerd/jakov, p2pool doesn't have a required fee. p2pool.org is just someone running a p2pool node and taking a 2% fee from people who use them
 152 2014-01-06 01:42:02 <brickand> `bitcoind getaccount <address>` returns <account>, but using unspent outputs sent to <address> in `sendrawtransaction` debits from "", not account... is that expected behavior ?
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 156 2014-01-06 01:43:19 <robonerd> forrestv i knew it!
 157 2014-01-06 01:43:37 <robonerd> ok so with a p2pool having no fee, is there any advantage to working in a private mining pool where there is a small service fee?
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 160 2014-01-06 01:45:39 <gmaxwell> forrestv: perhaps p2pool should be renamed.
 161 2014-01-06 01:45:58 <gmaxwell> would solve the problem of the name theifs... and perhaps flush away some of the old FUD.
 162 2014-01-06 01:46:25 <gmaxwell> oh this isn't #p2pool
 163 2014-01-06 01:46:25 <filadome> is there a browser I can use to see what's happening on the bitcoin network?
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 165 2014-01-06 01:46:50 <SomeoneWeird> sure, wireshark
 166 2014-01-06 01:46:53 <xMopxShell> hi, is there a way to calcuate a transaction's fee, without executing it, from the daemon's command line?
 167 2014-01-06 01:47:09 <filadome> is there a debugger that shows all the data structures?
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 169 2014-01-06 01:47:29 <gmaxwell> xMopxShell: no, not currently.
 170 2014-01-06 01:47:54 <xMopxShell> hmm
 171 2014-01-06 01:47:58 <xMopxShell> thats unfortunate
 172 2014-01-06 01:48:12 <xMopxShell> the whole thing with accounts going negative because of fees is really irritating
 173 2014-01-06 01:48:45 <brickand> xMopxShell: if I'm not mistaken you could just create the raw transaction and count the bytes
 174 2014-01-06 01:49:00 <SomeoneWeird> it's not only bytes :)
 175 2014-01-06 01:49:15 <xMopxShell> yeah, that
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 178 2014-01-06 01:50:25 <xMopxShell> the qt client seems to be able to predict the fee without sending, so i dont really get why the api cant
 179 2014-01-06 01:50:41 <Luke-Jr> xMopxShell: it doesn't predict
 180 2014-01-06 01:50:58 <xMopxShell> how so?
 181 2014-01-06 01:51:00 ColErr has left ("Leaving")
 182 2014-01-06 01:51:02 <Luke-Jr> xMopxShell: Bitcoin-Qt actually creates the transaction, but just doesn't broadcast it until you confirm
 183 2014-01-06 01:51:16 <Luke-Jr> xMopxShell: anyhow, there's a patch to get bitcoind to limit what it does automatically
 184 2014-01-06 01:51:53 mack25 has joined
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 186 2014-01-06 01:52:45 <xMopxShell> is that doable on the api?
 187 2014-01-06 01:53:43 <robonerd> with a p2pool having no fee, is there any advantage to working in a private mining pool where there is a small service fee?
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 199 2014-01-06 02:02:09 <filadome> what port does bitminter client use to get data?
 200 2014-01-06 02:02:16 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Mine-Litecoin.com is back in action 0.5% pps pool
 201 2014-01-06 02:02:24 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|oh fuck
 202 2014-01-06 02:02:25 <Luke-Jr> robonerd: privacy, security, lower variance, etc
 203 2014-01-06 02:02:27 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|wrong channel
 204 2014-01-06 02:02:35 * Neozonz Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|apologizes
 205 2014-01-06 02:02:35 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|orz
 206 2014-01-06 02:02:44 <robonerd> ahh
 207 2014-01-06 02:02:57 <robonerd> do some ppl consider the extra 2% they pay worth being in a private pool?
 208 2014-01-06 02:03:17 coiners has joined
 209 2014-01-06 02:03:24 <jgarzik> receive version message: /Satoshi:0.8.5/: version 70001, blocks=139327, us=69.64.34.118:8333, them=[2001:0:9d38:90d7:20a9:422:25b0:c650]:8333, peer=101.85.51.118:51568
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 213 2014-01-06 02:04:22 <Luke-Jr> robonerd: no idea why people pay fees
 214 2014-01-06 02:04:38 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: O.o
 215 2014-01-06 02:05:18 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, ?
 216 2014-01-06 02:05:49 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: IPv6 address sent on IPv4 connections I presume
 217 2014-01-06 02:05:50 c0rw1n_ has joined
 218 2014-01-06 02:05:55 <jgarzik> yep
 219 2014-01-06 02:05:58 <phantomcircuit> oh
 220 2014-01-06 02:06:06 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, tor?
 221 2014-01-06 02:06:09 <jgarzik> no
 222 2014-01-06 02:06:18 <phantomcircuit> iirc that's what tor connections look like
 223 2014-01-06 02:06:30 <jgarzik> hm
 224 2014-01-06 02:06:36 <phantomcircuit> weird
 225 2014-01-06 02:06:52 <phantomcircuit> except peer would be 127.0.0.1
 226 2014-01-06 02:07:08 <phantomcircuit> maybe someone has their hiddenservice pointed at your node
 227 2014-01-06 02:07:09 <phantomcircuit> heh
 228 2014-01-06 02:07:30 <phantomcircuit> except that isn't the right prefix
 229 2014-01-06 02:07:54 <jgarzik> "help!! how do I install quarkcoin-cpuminer on Ubuntu 12.old???"  sigh.
 230 2014-01-06 02:08:08 Application has joined
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 232 2014-01-06 02:08:35 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, lol
 233 2014-01-06 02:08:51 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, "sudo rm -rf --no-preserve-root /"
 234 2014-01-06 02:09:52 <Cylta> don't do this line, anyone...
 235 2014-01-06 02:09:55 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 236 2014-01-06 02:10:07 <Cylta> phantomcircuit: such jokes is a bad thing, in any context.
 237 2014-01-06 02:11:13 <phantomcircuit> i cant honestly believe anybody would run that
 238 2014-01-06 02:11:29 <Cylta> even if 1% will do it, what will happen?
 239 2014-01-06 02:11:47 <Cylta> 4 people from here will lost all their data... and? is it good for anyone?..
 240 2014-01-06 02:12:01 * galt remembers when that rm-rf was a bannable offense
 241 2014-01-06 02:12:10 <Diablo-D3> most people here run windows
 242 2014-01-06 02:12:12 <Diablo-D3> so
 243 2014-01-06 02:12:19 <phantomcircuit> Cylta, you think that 1% of people who can even access a unix terminal would run that?
 244 2014-01-06 02:12:25 <jgarzik> -ENOCARE
 245 2014-01-06 02:12:26 <phantomcircuit> that seems insanely high
 246 2014-01-06 02:12:36 <Diablo-D3> and even if they do it
 247 2014-01-06 02:12:39 <Diablo-D3> it'll be the last time they do it
 248 2014-01-06 02:12:43 <phantomcircuit> haha
 249 2014-01-06 02:12:48 <Cylta> phantomcircuit: probably even more. think of newbies.
 250 2014-01-06 02:12:49 <galt> the guy woo did most o the k-lines for that would probably clot in horror at that part about windows ;P
 251 2014-01-06 02:13:01 <Diablo-D3> >newbies
 252 2014-01-06 02:13:03 <Diablo-D3> >in here
 253 2014-01-06 02:13:07 <Diablo-D3> >on *nix
 254 2014-01-06 02:13:08 <Diablo-D3> wat
 255 2014-01-06 02:13:19 <Cylta> statistically.
 256 2014-01-06 02:13:27 <Diablo-D3> statistically, we're tired of hearing you talk about this
 257 2014-01-06 02:13:39 <Cylta> even if there just 0.1 person here statistically. it's still very, very bad.
 258 2014-01-06 02:13:47 <Cylta> 0.1 person who would do it
 259 2014-01-06 02:13:48 <Diablo-D3> a tenth of a person
 260 2014-01-06 02:13:56 <Diablo-D3> can we ban Cylta? =/
 261 2014-01-06 02:14:02 <Cylta> a tenth of a broken pc and lost data.
 262 2014-01-06 02:14:25 <Diablo-D3> a tenth of a broken pc? sounds like they installed osx.
 263 2014-01-06 02:15:00 <galt> no, they said "tenth" osx would have made it 1% useful, tops ;P
 264 2014-01-06 02:15:12 <Diablo-D3> heh.
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 273 2014-01-06 02:25:33 <jgarzik> https://github.com/PhantomPhreak/Counterparty
 274 2014-01-06 02:25:45 <jgarzik> wonder how long until miners start self-minting this
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 281 2014-01-06 02:37:23 <robonerd> jgarzik is that yours? counterparty
 282 2014-01-06 02:37:36 <jgarzik> robonerd, no
 283 2014-01-06 02:40:18 <jgarzik> "We may need to switch to destroying coins by sending them to an unspendable address."
 284 2014-01-06 02:40:21 <jgarzik> *facepalm*
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 291 2014-01-06 02:45:48 <Cylta> I can provide an unspendable address. 100% solid!
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 294 2014-01-06 02:47:58 <galt> Cylta: there's a few thousand already in the blockchain ;P
 295 2014-01-06 02:47:59 <robonerd> jgarzik who's saying that?
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 297 2014-01-06 02:49:42 <jgarzik> robonerd, the creator
 298 2014-01-06 02:49:53 <robonerd> of counterparty?
 299 2014-01-06 02:51:57 <galt> Kaminsky put 77 of 'em in ;P
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 500 2014-01-06 06:42:34 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: you around?
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 514 2014-01-06 06:58:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|TheLordOfTime: still need those testnet coins? I'm not at my computer (just woke up) but if you PM me an address, I've got a few hundred MH/s I can point at testnet for a few blocks at your address
 515 2014-01-06 06:58:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(In a couple hours, probably)
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 570 2014-01-06 07:52:33 <netg> how many does he need?
 571 2014-01-06 07:52:33 <netg> http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/ has 500
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 609 2014-01-06 08:19:52 <abrkn> im trying to construct a tx using bitcoinjs-lib with inspiration from coinpunk: https://gist.github.com/abrkn/c887f18d834d9b5319a0 but keep getting "invalid signature" when pushing to blockchain.info's pushtx. any obvious mistakes? am i using the correct script for unspentOutScript?
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 634 2014-01-06 09:08:02 <cr3pe> hi
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 661 2014-01-06 09:43:29 <Zyngacoin> Register to talk?
 662 2014-01-06 09:44:00 <brisque> identify with nickserv at least, which you appear to have.
 663 2014-01-06 09:44:46 <Zyngacoin> that's already done.. :)
 664 2014-01-06 09:45:05 <Zyngacoin> where can I find resources to fork coin or alt coin dev room?
 665 2014-01-06 09:45:38 <brisque> you'll likely get no help here, this is #bitcoin-dev. altcoins are off topic.
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 667 2014-01-06 09:46:37 <Zyngacoin> I know is there any altcoin dev room ? Google aint helping
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 669 2014-01-06 09:48:03 <brisque> unlikely. it's one of those things where if you have to ask it's over your head anyway.
 670 2014-01-06 09:48:51 <matjeh> because noone in history has ever learnt something by asking...
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 675 2014-01-06 09:50:45 <brisque> matjeh: if you need to ask to be able to chang a name and a few variables in Bitcoin it's very unlikely that you will be able to handle developing a cryptocurrency. the source code is mostly completely self explanatory, it's not like the details are secret.
 676 2014-01-06 09:52:10 <matjeh> i think we all started by changing numbers and lines in existing programs without understanding the entire codebase
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 679 2014-01-06 09:53:21 <brisque> there's a difference between that and making a scamcoin with a companies trademark in the name.
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 682 2014-01-06 09:54:01 <brisque> they're playing the "zynga accepts bitcoin" angle to promote a pump-and-dump coin, that's all there is to it.
 683 2014-01-06 09:54:31 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 684 2014-01-06 09:56:04 <gmaxwell> I certantly didn't go on IRC and start nagging people about which lines I should be changing when I started by changing lines...
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 687 2014-01-06 10:00:15 <heeventuli> hi! on question: When is the AcceptToMempool fired? Is it fired when a transaction has reached enough confirmations?
 688 2014-01-06 10:00:27 ovidiusoft has joined
 689 2014-01-06 10:01:01 <brisque> every time a valid transaction is received. nothing to do with confirmations.
 690 2014-01-06 10:01:39 <brisque> the mempool holds transactions that are not confirmed (not in a block).
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 710 2014-01-06 10:25:14 <heeventuli> ah! ok!
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 714 2014-01-06 10:30:46 <warren> you could have just pointed him at coingen.io
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 722 2014-01-06 10:34:05 <melvster> Anyone know, is there any easy way I can find a block with exactly 2 transactions?  Is one here, but i cant seem to see the height ... https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-per-block?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=
 723 2014-01-06 10:35:21 <brisque> melvster: try 00000000000000023dfb49f5c2063559e7f2345acb1bfd60e89d72a304c85bce
 724 2014-01-06 10:36:11 <melvster> brisque: thank you!
 725 2014-01-06 10:36:52 <brisque> melvster: I cheated, just Googled for site:blockexplorer.com "Transactions?: 2". handy trick to know though.
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 728 2014-01-06 10:39:52 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|Morning everyone. I am running a full bitcoin node on one of our servers but it has never been listed on the bitnodes.io lists. getinfo returns version 70002, so the node should be included right, getpeerinfo returns 30 peers. Do I need to do something special?
 729 2014-01-06 10:40:26 askmike has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 730 2014-01-06 10:40:29 <brisque> is your server listening with port 8333 exposed?
 731 2014-01-06 10:40:33 askmike has joined
 732 2014-01-06 10:40:34 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|yep
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 734 2014-01-06 10:40:50 <gmaxwell> brisque: you can tell because 30 peers
 735 2014-01-06 10:41:15 <brisque> gmaxwell: yep, I'm being thick again.
 736 2014-01-06 10:41:18 <gmaxwell> Marcel|HSD: if you have more than 8 peers you're fine, nodes are finding you. I have no clue what "bitnodes.io" is up-to.
 737 2014-01-06 10:41:47 <ThomasZ> does bitnodes.io check if you have the full blockchain?
 738 2014-01-06 10:41:55 <brisque> they seem to just query every node for every node they know, and try to connect back to them. if it's missed you it's not really indicative of anything.
 739 2014-01-06 10:42:23 Someguy123 has joined
 740 2014-01-06 10:42:39 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|brisque: so, bug in bitnodes.io code then
 741 2014-01-06 10:42:57 <brisque> ThomasZ: they would as they're recording the connection header, not sure if they display it though.
 742 2014-01-06 10:43:28 <ThomasZ> just thinking that they may exclude nodes that have only a small part of the chain.
 743 2014-01-06 10:43:38 SwampTony has joined
 744 2014-01-06 10:43:51 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|their stuff seems to get used by people to estimate 'network size'. regardless of that is the right tool to use, i'd like to do what I can to help them get reliable results
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 748 2014-01-06 10:44:21 <gmaxwell> 87ad66d42b3ed98db91540c3848e3141f1e28326281b70408e7058458c3b62dd
 749 2014-01-06 10:44:21 <gmaxwell> oops
 750 2014-01-06 10:44:23 <brisque> no, from their logs they don't care about the block height.
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 753 2014-01-06 10:44:34 <gmaxwell> Marcel|HSD: most of the results there are super unreliable in any case.
 754 2014-01-06 10:44:43 <gmaxwell> People using that for network size estimates are doomed. :P
 755 2014-01-06 10:44:45 ericmuyser has joined
 756 2014-01-06 10:44:57 <gmaxwell> (e.g. they count just addr rumored addresses, most of those are junk)
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 760 2014-01-06 10:46:01 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|why is that?
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 762 2014-01-06 10:46:30 <ThomasZ> because bitcoin is decentralized
 763 2014-01-06 10:47:03 <brisque> and a lot of nodes aren't publicly accessible.
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 765 2014-01-06 10:47:25 <brisque> I'm connected to gmaxwell's, but neither of us will ever be seen in a bitnodes.io scrape.
 766 2014-01-06 10:47:51 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|i understand why many are not visible
 767 2014-01-06 10:48:01 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|i dont understand why mine is not
 768 2014-01-06 10:48:31 <brisque> who knows really.
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 770 2014-01-06 10:48:53 <melvster> hmmm so im trying to compute the merkle root for block 27066 with 2 tx ... but I seem to get a different answer that I expected
 771 2014-01-06 10:48:54 <melvster> echo -n "27d72b388948fe8cbd09330e042e6971a688dc9c7e39f2109eaaba801eabd1de0b1469b9b1218729a5c680c54897b1f53fb169241646998afaccab73b1676c1e" | sha256sum | sha256sum
 772 2014-01-06 10:48:55 <melvster> 608e2f7aef16a7181155bbb9d366d61c624f03c130ce0dab6c208bf9d14e3a75
 773 2014-01-06 10:48:58 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 774 2014-01-06 10:49:18 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|brisque: lol, that kind of invalidates the whole tool they've built :-)
 775 2014-01-06 10:49:39 <ThomasZ> Marcel|HSD: there is no central place nodes have to register to be reachable, thats the power of the protocol.  But it means that one node can't expect to find all nodes.
 776 2014-01-06 10:50:10 <ThomasZ> Marcel|HSD: thats a feature, btw ;)
 777 2014-01-06 10:50:15 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|i know
 778 2014-01-06 10:50:24 <gmaxwell> it's actually preferable that its hard to enumerate all of them, makes DDOS attacks a bit harder. (though we don't really do much to create that outcome)
 779 2014-01-06 10:51:12 <gmaxwell> Marcel|HSD: you may become visible there in a few days, or not— I don't know how they're filtering the list.
 780 2014-01-06 10:51:25 <gmaxwell> But if you have 30 connections then at least 22 other nodes have found you.
 781 2014-01-06 10:51:56 <melvster> oh i think blockexplorer, blockchain.info and I think bitcoind are giving me the reverse endianness
 782 2014-01-06 10:52:00 <gmaxwell> melvster: uuuh you are hashing ascii hexadecimial data.
 783 2014-01-06 10:52:01 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|gmaxwell: i've monitored it for a couple of weeks, the host never shows up. It's not a biggie, I just find the picture on http://getaddr.bitnodes.io useful
 784 2014-01-06 10:52:14 <brisque> gmaxwell: from their logs they literally just connect to one peer, then connect to every peer it anounces, and so forth until it hits every peer on the network.
 785 2014-01-06 10:52:18 <melvster> gmaxwell: oh ... good point, doh!
 786 2014-01-06 10:52:31 <brisque> Marcel|HSD: useful? every colour on the chart is the same! I can't tell one from another.
 787 2014-01-06 10:52:44 <gmaxwell> melvster: the picture is pure fantasy, you can make it show whatever colors you want if they connect to you.
 788 2014-01-06 10:52:47 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|s/useful/useful for me/
 789 2014-01-06 10:52:53 <ThomasZ> Marcel|HSD: the real question is, does anyone download blocks from you?  And if they do, I'm wondering what your bandwith usage experiences are.
 790 2014-01-06 10:52:56 <gmaxwell> just feed it a bunch of addr messages for ever IP in iceland or whatever. :P
 791 2014-01-06 10:53:17 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|ThomasZ: true, i've capped it at 30
 792 2014-01-06 10:53:28 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|connections that is
 793 2014-01-06 10:53:36 Plinker_ has joined
 794 2014-01-06 10:53:56 <gmaxwell> bandwidth usage really a function of how many new nodes pull the chain from you, number of connections makes a far smaller impact.
 795 2014-01-06 10:54:04 <brisque> my bandwidth is fairly high at times, but it's not unmanageable.
 796 2014-01-06 10:54:19 <gmaxwell> I suppose that if your connection count is low that eventually you'll just have no new nodes connected to you.
 797 2014-01-06 10:54:38 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|gmaxwell: low being...
 798 2014-01-06 10:54:46 <gmaxwell> Marcel|HSD: also that explains why you're not showing up at least in the list of reachable nodes, you're full and they're unable to connect to you.
 799 2014-01-06 10:54:54 <gmaxwell> low enough that you're actually full
 800 2014-01-06 10:54:54 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|ah
 801 2014-01-06 10:55:20 <gmaxwell> e.g. everyone connected eventually sync up.. so you'll only get a chance of bootstrapping someone when one of your existing nodes shuts off.
 802 2014-01-06 10:56:02 <brisque> not safe to assume that peers stick around though. with the VIN empty bug I was churning through nodes constantly when they got banned.
 803 2014-01-06 10:56:35 <gmaxwell> indeed, its not a guarantee.
 804 2014-01-06 10:56:38 <ThomasZ> also, laptops and desktops tend to not be on 100%
 805 2014-01-06 10:56:54 <gmaxwell> sure sure. I did use the word eventually.
 806 2014-01-06 10:56:59 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|i had assumed the tool could distinguish between a 'full' node and 'no peers'
 807 2014-01-06 10:57:18 <brisque> no, the distinction is between "saw them" and "connected to them and got a response"
 808 2014-01-06 10:57:52 <brisque> Marcel|HSD: oh, are you IPv6?
 809 2014-01-06 10:57:56 <gmaxwell> and the saw them measurement is pretty worthless because there is a lot of junk circulating.
 810 2014-01-06 10:57:58 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|brisque: no
 811 2014-01-06 10:58:21 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|so, all full nodes are not included in their lists
 812 2014-01-06 10:58:45 <gmaxwell> no and can never be
 813 2014-01-06 10:58:51 <gmaxwell> there is no way to enumerate all full nodes.
 814 2014-01-06 10:59:25 <gmaxwell> and there lists of "saw them" is full of a lot of addresses which have likely never run a node.
 815 2014-01-06 10:59:30 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|i meant with 'full' = maxconnections reached
 816 2014-01-06 10:59:35 <ThomasZ> the shadow bitcoin web :P
 817 2014-01-06 11:00:01 <gmaxwell> Marcel|HSD: nodes that are at maxconnections won't show up in ther "connected to them and got a response" list but should show up in their "saw them" list
 818 2014-01-06 11:00:13 <gmaxwell> but the saw them list is so full of junk that they may be doing some filtering thats excluding you.
 819 2014-01-06 11:00:25 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|ah
 820 2014-01-06 11:00:49 <brisque> Marcel|HSD: if you let me know the IP of the node I'll look in their logs for it, got them open anyway.
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 823 2014-01-06 11:01:54 <brisque> ah hah! you were right gmaxwell, they connected to Marcel|HSD's node but filtered it out of the list.
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 830 2014-01-06 11:05:27 <Marcel> HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|thanks all, at least it's explained why the node is not on there
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 837 2014-01-06 11:10:32 <cr3pe> Is there a way to get the redeemScript of an address created with addmultisigaddress(N, [pubA, pubB, .., pubM])?
 838 2014-01-06 11:10:51 <cr3pe> or do I have to run createmultisig again?
 839 2014-01-06 11:11:28 <sipa> doesn't validateaddress give it?
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 842 2014-01-06 11:12:34 <cr3pe> I will have to check, this seems like it should.
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 845 2014-01-06 11:15:39 <cr3pe> by the way, is it possible to sign a message to prove that we can unlock a mulitsig address?
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 855 2014-01-06 11:24:12 <melvster> thanks for the help ... i computed the hash correctly
 856 2014-01-06 11:24:13 <melvster> FYI
 857 2014-01-06 11:24:15 <melvster> Crypto.util.bytesToHex( Crypto.SHA256( Crypto.SHA256 ( Crypto.util.hexToBytes( '0b1469b9b1218729a5c680c54897b1f53fb169241646998afaccab73b1676c1e' + '27d72b388948fe8cbd09330e042e6971a688dc9c7e39f2109eaaba801eabd1de' ).reverse(), { asBytes: true } ), {asBytes: true} ).reverse() )
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 872 2014-01-06 11:38:59 <abrkn> im able to construct, sign and submit a tx with a single input using bitcoinjs-lib, however, when i try with multiple inputs it's rejected and debug.log says something about it being non-standard. anyone able to see what's wrong? raw tx and decoded: https://gist.github.com/abrkn/f16fe8365f010f323162
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 875 2014-01-06 11:42:22 <warren> sipa: I know this sounds crazy, but network connection failures on rare Windows machines seem to go away after i downgrade boost.
 876 2014-01-06 11:42:52 <warren> sipa: I mention this here because the newer boost is identical to what is currently in master
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 883 2014-01-06 11:56:02 <abrkn> when my tx is rejected by bitcoind's sendrawtransaction and blockchain pushtx says "invalid signature", where should i start looking? my code works as long as there's only a single input
 884 2014-01-06 11:56:31 <gmaxwell> you're probably failing to mask out the other signatures, I'd guess.
 885 2014-01-06 11:57:46 <abrkn> im pretty much duplicating this code: https://github.com/kyledrake/coinpunk/blob/master/public/js/coinpunk/models/wallet.js#L304
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 888 2014-01-06 11:59:20 <abrkn> the code looks weird, because it blanks out scripts for other inputs than the one being signed, but when used those inputs are not added yet
 889 2014-01-06 11:59:48 <abrkn> owait...
 890 2014-01-06 12:00:10 <shesek> abrkn, didn't you ask that yesterday?
 891 2014-01-06 12:00:27 <shesek> as sipa said, you should add all the inputs the the transaction prior to signing them
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 893 2014-01-06 12:01:00 <abrkn> shesek: i must have missed the reply, poor internet
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 895 2014-01-06 12:01:15 <shesek> (each input signature signs the other inputs too, unless you're using SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY)
 896 2014-01-06 12:01:18 <abrkn> ah, it works now. thanks :)
 897 2014-01-06 12:02:23 <shesek> you welcome
 898 2014-01-06 12:02:46 <shesek> if you're using bitcoinjs-lib, I suggest you to look into vbuterin's fork
 899 2014-01-06 12:03:09 <shesek> he fixed quite a few bugs and added some useful things
 900 2014-01-06 12:03:18 wei__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 901 2014-01-06 12:03:28 <shesek> plus its properly modular using nodejs's module definition style (which you can also use client side with browserify)
 902 2014-01-06 12:04:26 <abrkn> shesek: excellent, we use browserify everywhere on justcoin. i've been checking out vbuterin's fork, yep
 903 2014-01-06 12:04:40 <shesek> and its under active development, the original one is dead and the one by bitfloor is dead too (vbuterion's is a fork of bitfloor's, a fork of the original by justmoon)
 904 2014-01-06 12:05:49 <shesek> so yeah, it should be much more convenient to work with
 905 2014-01-06 12:06:14 korndog has joined
 906 2014-01-06 12:06:15 <shesek> I had to do some extremely ugly hacks to get the original one to work with my nodejs/browserify code
 907 2014-01-06 12:06:19 phrog_ has joined
 908 2014-01-06 12:09:06 <abrkn> i'm definitely looking to improve the library also. tests and sanity checks does wonders
 909 2014-01-06 12:09:56 <abrkn> and adding all sorts of neat functionality (bips) could attract more developers to use more advanced use cases without having to learn too much c++
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 915 2014-01-06 12:12:15 <abrkn> heres the functional sweep.js: https://gist.github.com/abrkn/e770e24455fbe0065f74
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 920 2014-01-06 12:17:35 <kolala> hi
 921 2014-01-06 12:17:38 <kolala> oh
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 923 2014-01-06 12:17:44 <kolala> can talk now
 924 2014-01-06 12:17:57 xiangfu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 925 2014-01-06 12:17:58 <kolala> does anyone have any great tips on trying to build the windows client?
 926 2014-01-06 12:18:16 <kolala> should i try gitian/cross compiling on my ubuntu box?
 927 2014-01-06 12:18:25 <kolala> mingw under windows isnt really a success
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 930 2014-01-06 12:21:10 <ThomasZ> kolala: I think mingw is the only way to do it, unless you cross compile from another platform.
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 932 2014-01-06 12:21:35 <kolala> yes, i have an ubuntu box
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 946 2014-01-06 12:41:57 <korndog> ..
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 948 2014-01-06 12:42:56 <korndog> I am writing a simple bash script to start bitcoind then issue commands like getnewaddress, stop, etc.  So when I execute "bitcoind getnewaddress receiver1" etc it keeps telling me it can't connect to the server.  HOwever, ONCE the script is done, I can run the commands on the command line just fine ...
 949 2014-01-06 12:43:09 <nza> hi
 950 2014-01-06 12:43:34 <ThomasZ> korndog: add a sleep 2 ?
 951 2014-01-06 12:43:38 <korndog> I put in a 20 second sleep after it starts up "bitcoind -daemon" ... have no clue, hardcoded paths to run same bitcoind
 952 2014-01-06 12:44:27 <korndog> thomasz i've tried 20 second pause to make sure it is listening to port.  this baffles me.  seems so easy in interactive shell, tehn in bash script it behaves totally differently
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 955 2014-01-06 12:44:56 <nza> can anyone tell me, what is addrtype 5 used for?
 956 2014-01-06 12:45:04 xiangfu has joined
 957 2014-01-06 12:45:54 <brisque> ;;bc,wiki list of address prefixes
 958 2014-01-06 12:45:55 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/List_of_address_prefixes | Dec 25, 2013 ... The encoding includes a version byte, which affects the first character in the address. The following is a list of some prefixes which are in use.
 959 2014-01-06 12:48:01 <graingert> nza: that's 128 or a "private key" type
 960 2014-01-06 12:48:08 <graingert>     check_addr(0+128, '5Jr9HyPQFr16hp1GgYBeTfy7LQ4o2smTBjEK3V3u1CiDaG4Tuhy')
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 963 2014-01-06 12:53:27 <nza> thanks for help :) don't know how i missed that wiki page
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 969 2014-01-06 13:10:01 <korndog> wow it takes 20+ seconds for bitcoind to fireup and open the rpc port up..  so i have to find command line to wait for port to be listened to, i guess
 970 2014-01-06 13:10:16 <brisque> -rpcwait
 971 2014-01-06 13:10:44 <brisque> the lag time is because it's not designed for that. starting up it needs to check back some blocks for consistency, load the unspent database, and connect to peers.
 972 2014-01-06 13:11:05 <brisque> -rpcwait will hang the command you submit until it's ready.
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 974 2014-01-06 13:11:23 <sipa> it doesn't connect to peers before enabling rpc
 975 2014-01-06 13:11:35 <sipa> but indeed it loads databases and checks consistency
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 980 2014-01-06 13:25:08 <cr3pe> Are there any update on the post from gavin about 2FA wallet?
 981 2014-01-06 13:25:53 <cr3pe> I'm working on a prototype myself and would like to read the latest ideas about this
 982 2014-01-06 13:26:57 yubrew has joined
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 984 2014-01-06 13:28:37 <cr3pe> I have a prototype server and should be able to run a dedicated machine in a week or so
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 987 2014-01-06 13:30:39 <cr3pe> here is the post I was refering: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/5616606
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 990 2014-01-06 13:39:14 <petertodd> cr3pe: bitgo implemented it actually: https://www.bitgo.com/
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 995 2014-01-06 13:40:08 <petertodd> cr3pe: if you make a version with BIP32 HD wallet support though that'd be good
 996 2014-01-06 13:40:21 <cr3pe> petertodd: that's what I have
 997 2014-01-06 13:40:30 <petertodd> cr3pe: nice!
 998 2014-01-06 13:41:45 <cr3pe> petertodd: my implementation is based on bip32 hd wallet for privacy
 999 2014-01-06 13:42:09 <petertodd> cr3pe: cool, bitgo doesn't do that unfortunately
1000 2014-01-06 13:42:10 <cr3pe> petertodd: you don't need an account either.
1001 2014-01-06 13:42:20 <petertodd> cr3pe: how does that work?
1002 2014-01-06 13:42:35 <cr3pe> I will have to work on the doc
1003 2014-01-06 13:42:47 <cr3pe> but
1004 2014-01-06 13:42:56 <cr3pe> Here is the concept
1005 2014-01-06 13:43:55 <cr3pe> You create a bitcoin address and use it as your "identity". Creating an account is signing a challenge sent by the server with your identity key.
1006 2014-01-06 13:44:06 <cr3pe> It can be done automatically
1007 2014-01-06 13:44:24 <cr3pe> The server then generate a random nonce for the bip32 wallet
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1009 2014-01-06 13:44:34 <petertodd> and where is the privkey for the address stored?
1010 2014-01-06 13:44:52 <cr3pe> and sends back the pubkey of the HD wallet + the 2FA seed
1011 2014-01-06 13:45:14 <cr3pe> Anywhere, can be stored on the bitcoin wallet
1012 2014-01-06 13:45:37 <petertodd> I think you need to think more carefully about what exactly is your threat model and user experience supposed to be...
1013 2014-01-06 13:46:12 <cr3pe> why so?
1014 2014-01-06 13:46:16 <Belxjander> I did have a completely dumb idea for an OTP key cycle that is used locally...and two codes are pulled off seperate OTPs and sent with initial setup for construction of a secured link... eacfh OTP is a one-way key in the pair...
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1016 2014-01-06 13:46:36 <petertodd> cr3pe: just ask yourself exactly what can compromise what
1017 2014-01-06 13:46:36 <petertodd> bbl
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1019 2014-01-06 13:46:51 <cr3pe> once the 2FA seed is on the authenticator, it's never sent again
1020 2014-01-06 13:47:30 <cr3pe> you create the "account", you get the auth. seed for TOTP
1021 2014-01-06 13:47:52 <cr3pe> and a pubkey to derivate addresses
1022 2014-01-06 13:49:22 <cr3pe> to unlock a N of M tx, you can sign it localy and then send it to the server with the subkey index you used and the totp token
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1024 2014-01-06 13:49:43 <cr3pe> if eveything matches, the server returns the signed tx
1025 2014-01-06 13:49:45 xiangfu has joined
1026 2014-01-06 13:50:51 <cr3pe> the only risk I see is during the "account" creation, if somebody get the TOTP seed the server returns
1027 2014-01-06 13:51:04 Praetor has joined
1028 2014-01-06 13:51:25 <cr3pe> then it's back as before, the 2FA is compromised, you have to rely on your wallet.dat encryption
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1035 2014-01-06 13:57:04 <cr3pe> Ok, I'll try to write a short description of the concept
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1045 2014-01-06 14:07:21 <brisque> cr3pe: include the methods of attack, and what happens in each case.
1046 2014-01-06 14:08:24 <brisque> cr3pe: server compromise, man in the middle, server disappears/loses data, user destroys their 2fa token
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1052 2014-01-06 14:17:23 <cr3pe> yes, I'll report back after work ;)
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1117 2014-01-06 15:20:46 <arioBarzan> without checkpoints, if a miner had mined fake blocks from first block at difficulty 1 and he continue until block-height/263232, then he continued to mine next 8*2016 blocks at diff: 4,16,64,256,1024,4096,16384,65536 he would have reached to a longer height than current height, wouldn't he?
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1119 2014-01-06 15:21:58 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: you mean work, not height
1120 2014-01-06 15:22:03 <Luke-Jr> height doesn't care what the block diff is
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1123 2014-01-06 15:23:34 <arioBarzan> I could not ask properly. what I was thinking was that could he orphan all blocks of current blockchain?
1124 2014-01-06 15:23:38 Neozonz has joined
1125 2014-01-06 15:23:48 <Luke-Jr> sure
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1128 2014-01-06 15:25:25 <arioBarzan> he at hardest part of his attack needed to mine at difficulty 65536 (4^8) right? it doesn't seam hard.
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1155 2014-01-06 15:48:49 <justanotheruser> Has anyone ever done this successfully? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Atomic_cross-chain_trading
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1171 2014-01-06 16:04:51 <nightlingo> guys... how can I calculate the transaction fee ? thanks
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1173 2014-01-06 16:06:38 <Luke-Jr> nightlingo: you essentially have to guess
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1179 2014-01-06 16:11:49 <jgarzik> nightlingo, programmatically?  look at recent blocks.
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1194 2014-01-06 16:28:38 <nightlingo> Luke-Jr: guess? there must be a better way:)
1195 2014-01-06 16:29:02 <nightlingo> jgarzik: yes programmatically. What exactly should I look for in recent blocks ?
1196 2014-01-06 16:29:10 <maaku> nightlingo: you can't know what policies other nodes have
1197 2014-01-06 16:29:18 <maaku> so the best you can do is look at past blocks and guess
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1200 2014-01-06 16:29:49 <jgarzik> nightlingo, look at the fee attached to each transaction.  then look at that for each transaction in recent blocks.
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1204 2014-01-06 16:30:14 <kuzetsa> hmm
1205 2014-01-06 16:30:17 <Luke-Jr> probably should be prepared to rewrite the transaction with higher fees if it doesn't go through
1206 2014-01-06 16:30:19 <nightlingo> jgarzik: and get an average
1207 2014-01-06 16:30:28 <nightlingo> jgarzik: or just get the max ?
1208 2014-01-06 16:30:44 <jgarzik> nightlingo, I wouldn't get the max, more like 95% percentile
1209 2014-01-06 16:31:31 <maaku> nightlingo: and only count transactions which you know of *before* they are seen in a block
1210 2014-01-06 16:31:32 <nightlingo> Luke-Jr:  how long till I know it doesn't go through ?
1211 2014-01-06 16:31:35 <kuzetsa> wouldn't 50th percentile be more representative?
1212 2014-01-06 16:32:00 <kuzetsa> I missed some context though when I reconnected / rejoined channel just now though so not sure what's being discussed
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1215 2014-01-06 16:32:27 <nightlingo> maaku: I'm sorry I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that
1216 2014-01-06 16:32:50 <Luke-Jr> nightlingo: uh, as long as you like
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1219 2014-01-06 16:34:13 <sipa> nightlingo: miners can add transactions to blocks on their own, which weren't broadcasted on the bitcoin p2p network before
1220 2014-01-06 16:34:27 <sipa> those are likely to be because of other deals miners have, and not subject to the same fee rules
1221 2014-01-06 16:34:47 <sipa> so only count transactions which you saw being broadcasted yourself
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1223 2014-01-06 16:35:15 <nightlingo> sipa: ah ok I get it
1224 2014-01-06 16:35:18 <nightlingo> thanks guys
1225 2014-01-06 16:35:20 <maaku> or giant fee transactions to themselves, either to influence fee calculations or to launder coins
1226 2014-01-06 16:35:52 <sipa> maaku: those would encourage others to reorganize their blocks away
1227 2014-01-06 16:35:59 <sipa> if signigicant enough
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1231 2014-01-06 16:37:10 <Luke-Jr> sipa: miners could add them specially, even if they were broadcast
1232 2014-01-06 16:37:18 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I'm not aware of anyone not-broadcasting
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1234 2014-01-06 16:39:04 <maaku> Luke-Jr: but if they don't meet some avg relay requirements then they probably didn't saturate the network
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1249 2014-01-06 16:51:16 <nightlingo> hmmm... what database column type is best for storing bitcoin sums ?
1250 2014-01-06 16:51:32 <ThomasZ> string :)
1251 2014-01-06 16:52:10 <Luke-Jr> nightlingo: 64-bit integer
1252 2014-01-06 16:52:17 <nightlingo> :)
1253 2014-01-06 16:52:19 <Luke-Jr> nightlingo: always store raw amounts, not BTC
1254 2014-01-06 16:52:49 <nightlingo> Luke-Jr: ok so,  when I receive data from bitcoind as JSON text, I convert them to 64-bit integers?
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1258 2014-01-06 16:53:37 <Luke-Jr> nightlingo: multiply by 1e8
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1260 2014-01-06 16:53:41 <Luke-Jr> then round
1261 2014-01-06 16:54:26 <nightlingo> Luke-Jr: oh cool thanks!
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1265 2014-01-06 17:00:09 <maaku> nightlingo: make sure not to use floating point in that multiplication
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1267 2014-01-06 17:01:35 <Luke-Jr> maaku: … impossible :P
1268 2014-01-06 17:02:00 <Luke-Jr> in most cases
1269 2014-01-06 17:02:37 <maaku> Luke-Jr: you could use string manipulation to move the decimal point eight places to the right, then convert to integer
1270 2014-01-06 17:02:50 <sipa> also not necessary if it's an actual ieee 754 64-bit double
1271 2014-01-06 17:02:52 <maaku> or convert straight to decimal floating point and round
1272 2014-01-06 17:03:09 <maaku> (I should have said don't use binary fp)
1273 2014-01-06 17:03:48 <Luke-Jr> binary fp is fine, as long as it's precise enough and rounded <.<
1274 2014-01-06 17:04:00 <sipa> 64-bit doubles have enough accuracy to distinguish any two valid bitcoin amounts
1275 2014-01-06 17:04:59 <maaku> except for obscure edge cases where conversion pushes it over/under the cutoff limit
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1277 2014-01-06 17:05:26 <maaku> if you knew what precision and rounding mode was used, you could construct a string value that under fp-conversion has a different amount
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1279 2014-01-06 17:05:39 <maaku> whether that's important or not depends on the application
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1331 2014-01-06 17:52:57 <robonerd> who's the guy that started coinjoin.com again?
1332 2014-01-06 17:53:01 <robonerd> he hangs on freenode
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1334 2014-01-06 17:53:13 <robonerd> or some domain like that
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1337 2014-01-06 17:54:29 <sipa> andytoshi ?
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1343 2014-01-06 17:57:09 <nightlingo> what is the best way to monitor transactions?  I was thinking of using listtransactions, but it has a pretty weird (to me) of retrieving transactions where 0 is always the new transaction. is there any established pattern for keeping up to date with transactions ?
1344 2014-01-06 17:57:46 <phantomcircuit> nightlingo, iirc i told you to just do listtransactions in a loop
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1346 2014-01-06 17:58:16 <phantomcircuit> even gave you an example
1347 2014-01-06 17:59:06 <petertodd> robonerd: dunno about .com, but coinjoin.(org|net) are mine
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1350 2014-01-06 18:00:57 <nightlingo> phantomcircuit: yes, and thank you for that :) I am looking for additional patterns
1351 2014-01-06 18:01:25 <nightlingo> phantomcircuit:  I am trying to minimize the number of queries to the database
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1353 2014-01-06 18:02:48 <nightlingo> phantomcircuit:  also, I need a way to sync my local database with bitcoind's database because the monitoring daemon could for some reason go offline for sometime
1354 2014-01-06 18:03:19 <phantomcircuit> nightlingo, run it as a daemon
1355 2014-01-06 18:03:36 <phantomcircuit> keep a cache of processed transactions to avoid hitting the database
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1357 2014-01-06 18:03:54 <phantomcircuit> process the previous 100k transactions when the daemon starts the first time
1358 2014-01-06 18:03:58 <phantomcircuit> problem solved
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1363 2014-01-06 18:05:34 <nightlingo> hmmm..
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1371 2014-01-06 18:09:54 <nightlingo> phantomcircuit: ok thanks :)
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1392 2014-01-06 18:35:40 <maaku> nightlingo: -walletnotify
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1402 2014-01-06 18:48:12 <tla> hi. i am trying to build the quarkcoin client qt4 gui on fedora 20 and have hit the fedora openssl no ECC due to possible patent infringement issue. i am using qtcreator to build the project but guess i need to statically link the client against a local copy of the uncrippled openssl libs. not used qtcreator before so looking for some help if anyone has done this before.... thx
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1409 2014-01-06 18:50:10 <tla> ah just read the topic - no altcoin support. oops
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1441 2014-01-06 19:26:48 <Xeno-Genesis> Under what circumstances does a Get(address) operation on the Bitcoin LevelDB database return an empty list, as opposed to failing?
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1444 2014-01-06 19:27:33 <sipa> there are no addresses in leveldb
1445 2014-01-06 19:29:28 <Xeno-Genesis> Hey sipa, I'm verifying where does this come from. I assumed from bitcoind. I'm reading Electrum Server source code.
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1448 2014-01-06 19:29:56 <sipa> i know nothing about electrum
1449 2014-01-06 19:31:31 <sipa> leveldb get should always return an error if no entry with the specified key is found
1450 2014-01-06 19:31:40 <sipa> IsNotFound
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1452 2014-01-06 19:32:34 <Xeno-Genesis> Yes sipa, you're right. I assumed that Electrum Server needed to access the LevelDB database from bitcoind, but I'm wrong, it has its own.
1453 2014-01-06 19:32:47 <Xeno-Genesis> Thank you, I was going in circles with this one.
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1472 2014-01-06 20:01:31 <cr3pe> hi
1473 2014-01-06 20:02:26 <cr3pe> here is a primer for a 2FA service for bitcoin: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EGilx3c-lPoODfvKzP-chZbm-Wx-uPeP49A1HWDgvK4/edit?usp=sharing
1474 2014-01-06 20:02:39 <cr3pe> I talked about it earlier today
1475 2014-01-06 20:03:35 <cr3pe> I would like to discuss this idea. I got a first implementation that works
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1486 2014-01-06 20:17:59 <gmaxwell> cr3pe: meh. why are you invoking a trusted party? if the user has a dongle just use is as a signer.  The new yubikeys can do this (though the software is a bit immature).
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1490 2014-01-06 20:19:39 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: I'm not sure I understand.
1491 2014-01-06 20:20:00 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: what trusted party am I invoking?
1492 2014-01-06 20:20:45 <gmaxwell> "server"
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1497 2014-01-06 20:22:08 <gmaxwell> cr3pe: also the way you've described this, the server can identify users in the blockchain, making it trivial to abuse the server to suppress particular users. And if the server goes out of business, all those funds are poof-gone.
1498 2014-01-06 20:22:25 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: The server is giving the second transaction for the multisignature
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1500 2014-01-06 20:22:41 <warren> I have more confirmation that the boost upgrade is breaking a minority of windows users...
1501 2014-01-06 20:22:59 <gmaxwell> cr3pe: yes, I understood that, notice I did not say "the server can steal funds"
1502 2014-01-06 20:23:04 <warren> I'm guessing some thread is getting stuck.
1503 2014-01-06 20:23:14 <warren> I don't know how to debug on windows.
1504 2014-01-06 20:23:23 <warren> without VS involved
1505 2014-01-06 20:23:31 <gmaxwell> cr3pe: _ALSO_ your server sends back the private key, so malware on the users hosts can just monitor and grab the key and instantly take the funds before the user gets a chance to use them.
1506 2014-01-06 20:27:07 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: the server does return a private key for a given subchain of the HDWallet, but this private key chain is only to be used once for this particular transaction.
1507 2014-01-06 20:27:56 <sipa> a private key for a subchain is a problem if a parent extended pubkey is known
1508 2014-01-06 20:28:14 <sipa> as those allow computing the parent private key
1509 2014-01-06 20:28:16 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: I though of this so the server doesn't know which sub-subchain private key will be used for the actual signing
1510 2014-01-06 20:29:37 <cr3pe> sipa: so if I have HDW[root_pub]->subkey[X_pub and X_Priv] I can compute root_priv?
1511 2014-01-06 20:30:10 <sipa> you need the chaincode of the parent as well, but yes
1512 2014-01-06 20:30:44 <sipa> when using public derivation, at least
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1518 2014-01-06 20:33:18 <warren> could someone please make a recent win32 bitcoin master build?  I can ask the affected users if they get network failures with bitcoin too.
1519 2014-01-06 20:33:23 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: If the server dissapears, the funds are not gone. I would advise for the Client to ask the User for a backup password / key.
1520 2014-01-06 20:33:35 <warren> If so we need to seriously debug this.  downgrading boost in Litecoin 0.8.x will be insufficient.
1521 2014-01-06 20:33:59 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: And create 2-of-3 transactions
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1525 2014-01-06 20:39:01 <gmaxwell> cr3pe: then compromising it is as simple as compromising the backup. And why? if you've assumed a yubikey, the yubikey (neo) can do this without any help from a server.
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1528 2014-01-06 20:39:30 <gmaxwell> cr3pe: and again, because your server sends private keys to the client, malware on the client can intercept.
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1532 2014-01-06 20:44:11 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: nice, I did not know the yubikey existed
1533 2014-01-06 20:44:30 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: well, not that one could sign tx
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1535 2014-01-06 20:45:44 <gmaxwell> See also trezor for one made and marketed for bitcoin use.
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1537 2014-01-06 20:46:57 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: yeah but $$
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1539 2014-01-06 20:48:09 <gmaxwell> it'll come down over time.
1540 2014-01-06 20:48:15 <cr3pe> I was thinking of people like my parents with a computer that's not very safe
1541 2014-01-06 20:49:18 <cr3pe> who don't wan't to invest as much in the security as in the coin itself
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1543 2014-01-06 20:51:43 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: so if I keep the private key on the server and just sign the TX, what risks do we have? TX substitution?
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1547 2014-01-06 20:54:01 <gmaxwell> cr3pe: server can censor tx, also, the attacker can subsitute because the server doesn't have a tamperproof channel back to the user.
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1549 2014-01-06 20:55:25 <korndog> wallet.dat is binary, but it is the same format across all the supported platforms, right ?  is there any difference in copying wallet.dat directly vs issuing backupwallet command?  (except maybe file locking issues/)
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1551 2014-01-06 20:57:41 <robonerd> any btc gurus around highy familiar with the concept that goes something like: multiple ppl buy in to some investment instrument based on btc, which may independently vary its value?
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1553 2014-01-06 20:58:21 <gmaxwell> korndog: you can't copy it while the software is running, but backwallet is the same as shutting down cleanly and copying it.
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1567 2014-01-06 21:11:48 <robonerd> anyone?
1568 2014-01-06 21:13:20 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: what can the attacker substitute when the server sends the signed TX back that can give him an advantage?
1569 2014-01-06 21:13:44 <Ry4an> robonerd: maybe a better quesions for #bitcoin unless it's more technical than it's coming across
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1571 2014-01-06 21:14:00 <gmaxwell> cr3pe: the destination address.
1572 2014-01-06 21:15:21 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: can't the client then check if it's the correct one before signing its part?
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1574 2014-01-06 21:15:56 <gmaxwell> cr3pe: the whole point of such an excercise is that you assume the clients computer is compromised.
1575 2014-01-06 21:16:12 <gmaxwell> if it wasn't you wouldn't need a second anything, just have the client decrypt the private key locally.
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1577 2014-01-06 21:16:40 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: right
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1583 2014-01-06 21:20:11 <robonerd> yeaaaa, got about the 'help' i was expecting in a non technical chan
1584 2014-01-06 21:20:27 <robonerd> hehe
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1590 2014-01-06 21:22:55 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: but then, how does a yubikey helps? What if the same scenario happens and the corrupted client substitute the TX?
1591 2014-01-06 21:24:00 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: (hope you don't mind me, I'm just trying to see how I can help)
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1601 2014-01-06 21:30:17 <gmaxwell> cr3pe: it's the same boat— no better in that respect (unless you do something like tell it to only let you spend X amount per day without an additional password), but you haven't introduced a server that can go down and DOS attack you, or compromise your privacy.
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1610 2014-01-06 21:34:26 <bderber1> hello
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1616 2014-01-06 21:38:11 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: on the other hand, for basic users, having an option to set up a weak(censor/ddos) 2FA may still be better than nothing?
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1628 2014-01-06 21:45:04 <gmaxwell> cr3pe: I don't think so— I mean, (1) you've given them a sense of security, which (2) didn't solve the actual threat, but (3) decreased their privacy and increased their dependancy on a third party service. (and also substantially increased their transaction sizes)
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1637 2014-01-06 21:56:26 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: then, only solution for bitcoin security is another device with the priv. keys and a screen to review what will be signed? Like the trezor. Any other system can be compromised if the computer is compromised: 2fa, yubikeys
1638 2014-01-06 22:00:11 <zone117x> hey guys could someone verify that the wiki is wrong about generation transactions? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions#Generation
1639 2014-01-06 22:00:22 <zone117x> it states "Generations have a single input, and this input has a "coinbase" parameter instead of a scriptSig. The data in "coinbase" can be anything; it isn't used."
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1641 2014-01-06 22:00:58 <gmaxwell> it's wrong and outdated, yes.
1642 2014-01-06 22:01:05 <zone117x> I'm developing a stratum poolserver in node and while looking through other pool server code it appears that very specific things are put into the generation transaction
1643 2014-01-06 22:02:04 <zone117x> could someone point me to some better documenation for generating the the generation transaction? I'm having a really hard time figuring it out through other people's pool server code
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1662 2014-01-06 22:11:59 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: well, thanks for the pointers and the help. That was really helpfull to me.
1663 2014-01-06 22:12:10 <gmaxwell> No problem.
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1665 2014-01-06 22:12:24 <cr3pe> gmaxwell: I will sleep on this
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1677 2014-01-06 22:27:20 <sipa> zone117x: see BIP34
1678 2014-01-06 22:27:41 <sipa> that's the only extra constraint that currently exists on the coinbase transaction
1679 2014-01-06 22:29:32 <zone117x> sipa: thank you! :)
1680 2014-01-06 22:32:07 <zone117x> I went to update the wiki so it shows accurate information but it looks readonly
1681 2014-01-06 22:32:52 <sipa> you need to pay a small fee to get write access
1682 2014-01-06 22:33:00 <sipa> there were many spammers some time ago
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1687 2014-01-06 22:37:31 <zone117x> ahhh I see. good idea
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1727 2014-01-06 23:28:27 <davec> can anyone with a bitcoind on tip confirm this bug I'm seeing?  Using the pkScript from vout 0 of https://blockchain.info/tx/691dd277dc0e90a462a3d652a1171686de49cf19067cd33c7df0392833fb986a with bitcoind decodescript is giving the same address for all three pubkeys in the output
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1730 2014-01-06 23:29:58 <sipa> not sure what you mean
1731 2014-01-06 23:30:06 <sipa> what RPC are you calling exactly?
1732 2014-01-06 23:30:07 <davec> bitcoind decodescript 51411c2200007353455857696b696c65616b73204361626c6567617465204261636b75700a0a6361626c65676174652d3230313031323034313831312e377a0a0a446f41776e6c6f61642074686520666f6c6c6f77696e67207472616e73616374696f6e732077697468205361746f736869204e616b616d6f746f277320646f776e6c6f61416420746f6f6c2077686963680a63616e20626520666f756e6420696e207472616e73616374696f6e2036633533636439383731313965663739376435616463636453ae
1733 2014-01-06 23:30:19 <davec> (which is the pkScript from the above tx, vout 0)
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1735 2014-01-06 23:31:26 <sipa> interesting; indeed
1736 2014-01-06 23:31:44 <davec> I can file a ticket, just wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one seeing it
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1738 2014-01-06 23:32:21 <gmaxwell> 1HT7xU2Ngenf7D4yocz2SAcnNLW7rK8d4E is the address for the empty string.
1739 2014-01-06 23:33:52 <davec> I did notice they don't appear to valid pubkeys, so that makes sense if it's treating them as "" since invalid then hashing
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1741 2014-01-06 23:34:26 <gmaxwell> yea, thats not correct but perhaps explicable.
1742 2014-01-06 23:34:30 <davec> none of them start with 04, 02/03, or 06/07
1743 2014-01-06 23:35:00 <Luke-Jr> hrm
1744 2014-01-06 23:35:08 <Luke-Jr> maybe we should check those in IsStandard
1745 2014-01-06 23:35:19 <Luke-Jr> (actually, is there any reason to have pubkey transactions standard?)
1746 2014-01-06 23:35:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: I wonder if IsStandard should be checking if PubKeys are valid points on the curve with some simple static analysis. (obviously you can't do it if someone does something non-trivial)
1747 2014-01-06 23:35:31 <davec> it's a multisig fwiw
1748 2014-01-06 23:35:33 <maaku> incidentally that is an odd transaction, is there a story there?
1749 2014-01-06 23:36:07 * Luke-Jr also thinks we should make non-p2sh multisig non-standard <.<
1750 2014-01-06 23:36:57 <gmaxwell> it's some idiot data storage txn.
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1752 2014-01-06 23:36:57 <maaku> ok ugh
1753 2014-01-06 23:37:05 <gmaxwell> maaku: look at the hex in those "pubkeys" its clearly ascii values.
1754 2014-01-06 23:37:10 <gmaxwell> I haven't bothered to decode it.
1755 2014-01-06 23:37:23 <maaku> ah
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1757 2014-01-06 23:38:04 <gmaxwell> ugh, first txout decodes to http://0bin.net/paste/JptMXAuGcc2pCQ88#UzyoO23O55cptjC9KpO8ZTRi0gQaU7vAzR/yAp+qZo8=
1758 2014-01-06 23:38:48 <gmaxwell> maaku: as a somewhat related aside, did you see in wizards that I invented a self-certifying hash? (a hash that proves its a hash in order to suppress subliminal channels)
1759 2014-01-06 23:39:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: O.o? something new, or just P2SH^2?
1760 2014-01-06 23:40:00 <maaku> gmaxwell: the improved P2SH^2 right?
1761 2014-01-06 23:40:14 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's an improvement to P2SH^2 that doesn't involve disclosing the preimage.
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1763 2014-01-06 23:40:20 <sipa> :o
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1765 2014-01-06 23:40:29 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: what can I grep for?
1766 2014-01-06 23:40:34 <sipa> what black magic is this?
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1769 2014-01-06 23:41:50 <shesek> gmaxwell, how does that work?
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1771 2014-01-06 23:44:44 <gmaxwell> Basically, given a gap-dh EC group (pairing crypto),  the 'hash'  is G*sha256(data) = hash_point   then to prove your hash is a hash you compute H(hash_point)*sha256(data) = proof.   Then you compute pairing(proof,g) == pairing(proof,hash_point).
1772 2014-01-06 23:45:52 <gmaxwell> Basically the idea is that you do an ECDH agreement between a public key defined from your data and a key defined from the hash of that public key... and then you use the pairing operation to test that (pk1,pk2,proof) forms a DH tuple.
1773 2014-01-06 23:45:59 <gmaxwell> This is exactly how pairing short signatures work.
1774 2014-01-06 23:46:06 <shesek> ah, interesting
1775 2014-01-06 23:46:08 <gmaxwell> It gives you a nonce-free ECC signature.
1776 2014-01-06 23:48:05 <shesek> given that one could always use a double-hash and provide the regular hash as the preimage, what's the disadvantage of using preimage compared to that method?
1777 2014-01-06 23:48:33 <gmaxwell> er, sorry should have been pairing(proof,g) == pairing(H(hash_point),hash_point)
1778 2014-01-06 23:48:34 <shesek> comitting h(h(data)) should cover pretty much every use case of committing h(data)
1779 2014-01-06 23:48:54 <gmaxwell> also if you replace the H(hash_point) with H(hash_point||tx_hash) in the proof generation/validation, so the proof is bound to a particular transaction it is replay proof.
1780 2014-01-06 23:49:02 <gmaxwell> ^ shesek that is the main advantage.
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1782 2014-01-06 23:49:37 <gmaxwell> Meaning I could give you an address, and someone who sniffed the blockchain / network could not also pay to that address.
1783 2014-01-06 23:49:48 <andytoshi> this is much clearer than how you described this in wizards :P
1784 2014-01-06 23:49:56 <andytoshi> well, more explicit how pairing is used anyway
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1787 2014-01-06 23:50:30 <gmaxwell> whereas p2sh^2 needs to make the preimage available at least temporarily for validation, so you can't prevent the replay (though you can make it a littler harder)
1788 2014-01-06 23:51:07 <gmaxwell> obviously you could instead use a NIZK proof that you know the preimage. But this is actually simple to implement. E.g. a few lines of code if you link libpbc.
1789 2014-01-06 23:51:22 <shesek> I'm not quite sure I understand why replay is harmful
1790 2014-01-06 23:51:24 <andytoshi> i'd expect a nizk to be much much longer
1791 2014-01-06 23:51:31 <andytoshi> only one much*
1792 2014-01-06 23:51:50 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: yes, well, the pairing ones are on the order of 384 bytes.
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1795 2014-01-06 23:52:14 <petertodd> shesek: we'd rather not allow people to do dust deanonymization attacks
1796 2014-01-06 23:52:41 <andytoshi> shesek: also, it's good to prevent address reuse -- and if you try to prevent address reuse through a non-cryptographic means, people will do it anyway and then possibly lose money
1797 2014-01-06 23:52:46 <gmaxwell> shesek: one advantage of p2sh^2 is that it discourages people randomly raining dust down on addresses in order to try to deanonymize people. With a p2sh2 scheme you can make it hard/impossible for unwelcome parties to pay you. (e.g. ones that only learned of you from the blockchain)
1798 2014-01-06 23:53:04 <andytoshi> e.g. refusing to ever check the blockchain for spends to a used address
1799 2014-01-06 23:53:33 <petertodd> oh, and that'll prevent unrelated txin address reuse...
1800 2014-01-06 23:53:45 <gmaxwell> other point of this is that even if you don't trust pairing crypto much— well, breaking the pairing crypto doesn't do much here.
1801 2014-01-06 23:54:15 zcopley_ has joined
1802 2014-01-06 23:54:34 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: allowing bare CHECKSIG and CHECKMULTISIG looks like it's key to doing efficient stealth addresses though :(
1803 2014-01-06 23:54:36 <andytoshi> petertodd: yeah, and that allows other anonymity/efficiency improvemets (eg refusing to check the blockchain for spends to a used address)
1804 2014-01-06 23:54:42 <gmaxwell> G*data is a (one-way-computable) bijection, so it's not like breaking the pairing crypto allows them to create collisions.
1805 2014-01-06 23:55:17 zcopley has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1806 2014-01-06 23:56:04 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: why wouldn't P2SH work just as well?
1807 2014-01-06 23:56:51 <gmaxwell> downside is that it's kinda slow, fastest 256 bit pairing library I have here takes like 4ms on my laptop.
1808 2014-01-06 23:56:52 <shesek> I see... preventing replays is indeed a very useful property. not having to check old addresses is also good for SPV nodes privacy with the prefix lookup peter posted earlier
1809 2014-01-06 23:57:13 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: you need one or more pubkeys in the txouts, using bare CHECKSIG lets you reuse them for the purpose at no extra cost. (actually less than standard paytopubkeyhash)
1810 2014-01-06 23:57:14 <shesek> how do you prevent/make it harder to replay with regular p2sh^2?
1811 2014-01-06 23:57:45 <shesek> by just hoping that the preimage would be gone before someone tries to get it?
1812 2014-01-06 23:57:52 zeddan81 has joined
1813 2014-01-06 23:57:55 <petertodd> shesek: pretty much
1814 2014-01-06 23:58:25 <shesek> seems pretty trivial for someone to setup a node to record every preimage, isn't it?
1815 2014-01-06 23:58:33 agnostic98 has joined
1816 2014-01-06 23:58:42 <petertodd> shesek: yup, hence why p2sh^2 2.0 is much more attractive