1 2014-01-07 00:00:17 <shesek> yeah, it seems like a great solution
   2 2014-01-07 00:01:21 <petertodd> well see, lots of vested interests popping up to store data in the blockchain - I'd be interested to see someone actually write a pay-to-(hash) IsStandard() patch and get it merged
   3 2014-01-07 00:01:22 <gmaxwell> Well keep in mind if you just do only what I described, you can still replay after someone spends one of those outputs, because the spend will have the script in it.
   4 2014-01-07 00:01:53 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh, true
   5 2014-01-07 00:02:03 <gmaxwell> There actually is a way around it, but I think it requires another 32 bytes of overhead in the scriptpubkey.
   6 2014-01-07 00:03:02 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: you can replay, but you'd be doing enough magic that you shouldn't believe your transaction would ever be noticed by the key owner
   7 2014-01-07 00:03:18 <shesek> assuming that no one honest should ever pay to old used addresses (unless the recipient explicitly wants it and possibly marks that address as a reused one in his client), is it really that bad to just ignore payments to them?
   8 2014-01-07 00:03:22 <andytoshi> so replay spends would effectively be burns
   9 2014-01-07 00:03:26 <petertodd> andytoshi: coinjoin makes a mess of "txin refunds" anyway
  10 2014-01-07 00:03:50 <andytoshi> yeah, good point, hopefully people will start using it next week when i write my gtk client
  11 2014-01-07 00:04:03 <gmaxwell> shesek: yes, to some extent the replay concern is just a matter of conventions. If you have a convention that you'll ignore replays, then that may be enough for the replay purpose.
  12 2014-01-07 00:04:03 <petertodd> andytoshi: excellent
  13 2014-01-07 00:04:44 <gmaxwell> the other advantage of 2.0 there is that with the original p2sh^2 you could still abuse the network to relay non-txn data... it just wouldn't get stored long term. This construct prevents the data entirely, even at relay time.
  14 2014-01-07 00:05:07 <shesek> andytoshi, you're releasing a coinjoin client next week?
  15 2014-01-07 00:05:07 Praetor has joined
  16 2014-01-07 00:05:23 <andytoshi> shesek: i have one today, https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin
  17 2014-01-07 00:05:31 <andytoshi> but you have to submit raw txns to the website
  18 2014-01-07 00:05:50 <andytoshi> what i'll write over the weekend is an application which does this for you (including talking to bitcoind to construct the transactions)
  19 2014-01-07 00:06:06 blochchain has joined
  20 2014-01-07 00:06:16 <gmaxwell> I think with this kinda contstruct you could produce a cryptocoin which had no high bandwidth subliminal channels. .. which is sort of neat... though you'd have to remove a lot of functionality (like scrypt), and you'd have to use the same kind of pairing short signatures for signing too.
  21 2014-01-07 00:06:30 <sipa> you mean script?
  22 2014-01-07 00:06:36 <gmaxwell> er. yes. :P
  23 2014-01-07 00:06:38 <andytoshi> :)
  24 2014-01-07 00:06:43 cysm has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  25 2014-01-07 00:06:43 paracyst has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  26 2014-01-07 00:06:48 <sipa> the keys are like right next to eachother
  27 2014-01-07 00:07:08 <sipa> (one day i'll need to learn pairing crypto...)
  28 2014-01-07 00:07:20 <shesek> andytoshi, seems somewhat counterproductive to do that on a centralized server... but its probably fine as an early poc
  29 2014-01-07 00:07:23 <blochchain> the blockchain is just a linear adjacent set of blocks, right? that is to say, if I read the block size (the first part of the header), skip that far, and repeat until i'm at the end, I'd make it as expected, right?
  30 2014-01-07 00:07:29 <gmaxwell> (otherwise you could use known-K and data-in-your-ecdsa-privkey, or just extra stuff in script to send data)
  31 2014-01-07 00:07:45 <andytoshi> shesek: well, trusting me not to run to the NSA is a million times better than trusting literally everyone in the world not to
  32 2014-01-07 00:07:47 porqui has joined
  33 2014-01-07 00:07:48 <sipa> blochchain: s/the blockchain/the blk*.dat files/
  34 2014-01-07 00:07:52 Neskia has joined
  35 2014-01-07 00:07:56 <andytoshi> but agreed, a decentralized solution is better and possible, i'm just lazy :)
  36 2014-01-07 00:08:24 mappum has quit (Quit: Stay fresh.)
  37 2014-01-07 00:08:38 <shesek> will the desktop client be p2p or also use a centralized server to handle communication?
  38 2014-01-07 00:09:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: pairing crypto is pretty easy to black-box without really understanding it in depth.  "Okay, it lets you do this extra operation, which gives this algebraic result, which is kinda like being able to solve the discrete log problem but yielding an encrypted answer. OKAY"
  39 2014-01-07 00:09:14 <andytoshi> shesek: still centralized, it'll just POST to the website :P
  40 2014-01-07 00:09:15 Praetor_ has joined
  41 2014-01-07 00:09:52 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: do you have a good link offhand for learning about this?
  42 2014-01-07 00:09:53 <shesek> right. well, it is a lot more work to do this p2p
  43 2014-01-07 00:09:55 <sipa> gmaxwell: still, i have no clue about it - i'm pretty good at ignoring very interesting stuff around me when my brain bandwidth is saturated already
  44 2014-01-07 00:10:06 mappum has joined
  45 2014-01-07 00:10:11 <andytoshi> (i'm in exactly the same boat as sipa)
  46 2014-01-07 00:10:14 Praetor_ has quit (Client Quit)
  47 2014-01-07 00:10:28 * shesek is too :)
  48 2014-01-07 00:10:30 paracyst has joined
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  52 2014-01-07 00:11:22 <blochchain> sipa: can you elaborate?
  53 2014-01-07 00:11:34 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: the older pairing crypto papers are actually pretty hard to read. I'm trying to remember which one it was that I liked.
  54 2014-01-07 00:11:54 <sipa> blochchain: "the blockchain" is a pretty abstract concept
  55 2014-01-07 00:12:01 azariah4 has joined
  56 2014-01-07 00:12:02 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: basically every single paper on any protocol using paring crypto explains the algebraic level understanding over again.
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  59 2014-01-07 00:12:15 <sipa> blochchain: you're talking about the blk*.dat files created by the reference client, not about the blockchain in general, right?
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  62 2014-01-07 00:12:35 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: thx, i'll skim the preprint archive then
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  64 2014-01-07 00:12:50 <sipa> also, those files are an on-disk representation of the whole block tree, not just the block chain currently active
  65 2014-01-07 00:12:52 <blochchain> i know, sipa. i'm pretty well-versed in this stuff. i've just always used other people's blockchain parsers and now i'm writing my own
  66 2014-01-07 00:13:01 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: e.g. see the list at the top of page 9 in https://www.dropbox.com/s/nkh22cibel8stb4/horasyuanmouton.pdf you can see that same list in dozens of papers
  67 2014-01-07 00:13:06 <sipa> blochchain: but apart from that, yes
  68 2014-01-07 00:15:35 <maaku> blochchain: fyi, blocks may be out of order in the blk*.dat files
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  73 2014-01-07 00:18:05 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: in any case you can go pretty far understanding nothing other than you have some special group G1 allowing a computable map 'pairing()' G1xG1->G2 such that pairing(g1_a^x,g1_b^y) == pairing(g1_a,g1_b)^xy   (this is a symetric pairing there are G1xG2->G3 ones too, but they're more rarely needed). This criteria would be easy to achieve but then we also require the discrete log problem be hard in G1.
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  77 2014-01-07 00:18:42 <sipa> maaku: no
  78 2014-01-07 00:18:45 <sipa> maaku: not yet
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  80 2014-01-07 00:19:03 <gmaxwell> Actually how the map is computed is pure mystery to me,... but all the useful algebra follows naturally from that definition.
  81 2014-01-07 00:19:09 <blochchain> yeah that would strike me as odd
  82 2014-01-07 00:19:15 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: thanks!
  83 2014-01-07 00:19:15 <blochchain> (sipa and maaku)
  84 2014-01-07 00:19:18 <maaku> sipa: I've encountered that in my own blk files. is that from an old version of bitcoind?
  85 2014-01-07 00:19:28 <blochchain> considering that you need all previous blocks to verify a new block
  86 2014-01-07 00:19:34 <sipa> maaku: have you used any headersfirst version?
  87 2014-01-07 00:19:44 <sipa> because those break that assumption
  88 2014-01-07 00:19:47 <maaku> ah yes
  89 2014-01-07 00:19:57 <sipa> current -reindex relies on the blocks being in order
  90 2014-01-07 00:20:27 <shesek> andytoshi, how active is your coinjoin service?
  91 2014-01-07 00:20:34 <maaku> ;;cjs
  92 2014-01-07 00:20:34 <gribble> Coinjoin Status: There is no currently open session. Visit https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/ or http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ to start one.
  93 2014-01-07 00:20:37 zone117x has joined
  94 2014-01-07 00:21:17 one_zero has joined
  95 2014-01-07 00:21:37 <andytoshi> shesek: if i go on #bitcoin and say "coinjoin in an hour", i have roughly a 50% chance of getting gmaxwell to join, 10% chance of anybody else
  96 2014-01-07 00:21:55 <andytoshi> to the best of my knowledge nobody has used it without prompting <.<
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  99 2014-01-07 00:22:25 <shesek> how about perhaps setting some set time for everyone to come?
 100 2014-01-07 00:22:46 <shesek> or possibly just making the session duration longer, and send some notifications when its ready for signing?
 101 2014-01-07 00:23:05 <andytoshi> shesek: yeah, gmaxwell has suggested this to me repeatedly .. i will do it when i get around to it ;)
 102 2014-01-07 00:23:17 <gmaxwell> I think it's still just too hard to use for people who don't regularly use raw transactions.
 103 2014-01-07 00:23:22 <andytoshi> you are welcome to write an IRC bot which shows up a few times a day to say "coinjoin at 5PM pacific" or whatever
 104 2014-01-07 00:23:44 <shesek> gmaxwell, I was thinking to write a web interface for that which'll do the transaction creation/signing with bitcoinjs-lib
 105 2014-01-07 00:24:15 <andytoshi> shesek: your browser can't see your coins
 106 2014-01-07 00:24:17 <andytoshi> i hope
 107 2014-01-07 00:24:44 pablog has quit (Quit: pablog)
 108 2014-01-07 00:24:51 <shesek> but its somewhat hard to get the funds into an output the web interface can control - it'll require either asking the user for a private key (which might contain funds that the user doesn't want to join, and they'll probably won't like that idea much generally) or create a new address that's controlled by the web interface and ask it to send the funds there first
 109 2014-01-07 00:25:05 <petertodd> shesek: I'd suggest writing an electrum plugin actually
 110 2014-01-07 00:25:16 <shesek> but its an extra transaction, which'll also be mined shortly before the coinjoin transaction
 111 2014-01-07 00:25:24 <shesek> which would make it easy to identify coinjoin txs
 112 2014-01-07 00:25:30 <petertodd> shesek: someone already did so for blockchain.info's shared send service (not the CJ one) and it works fine
 113 2014-01-07 00:25:35 drayah_ has joined
 114 2014-01-07 00:25:55 <gmaxwell> electrum has plugins?
 115 2014-01-07 00:25:59 <shesek> I didn't look much into it, how does it work?
 116 2014-01-07 00:26:02 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yup
 117 2014-01-07 00:26:05 <gmaxwell> cool
 118 2014-01-07 00:26:16 <petertodd> shesek: dunno, some kind of file goes in a magic directory and there's some hooks or something
 119 2014-01-07 00:26:56 <shesek> oh wait, didn't notice you wrote "not the cj one"
 120 2014-01-07 00:27:04 davec has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 121 2014-01-07 00:27:19 <shesek> and I meant what you said about blockchain.info, not electrum plugins
 122 2014-01-07 00:27:20 <petertodd> shesek: yeah, either way though, I'm sure the plugin system could let you write a CJ plugin
 123 2014-01-07 00:27:36 davec has joined
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 125 2014-01-07 00:27:42 <shesek> and yes, something like this does make sense more as a desktop client with access to the user's wallet rather than a web interface
 126 2014-01-07 00:27:45 <petertodd> shesek: ah, yeah, there's no such thing as a bc.i plugin AFAIK, er, well other than what some hackers probably have :P
 127 2014-01-07 00:29:30 coiners has joined
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 129 2014-01-07 00:29:38 <shesek> I was referring to "someone already did so for blockchain.info's shared send service", not to bc.i plugins
 130 2014-01-07 00:30:01 <petertodd> shesek: right, well that *does* have an API is my understanding
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 135 2014-01-07 00:35:07 <maaku> petertodd: ugh my email was ambiguous
 136 2014-01-07 00:35:09 InterestedRookie has joined
 137 2014-01-07 00:36:28 <maaku> the authenticated prefix tree BIP provides a compact Merkle data structure for representing the dictionary of scriptPubKey -> (inputs, outputs) committed to each block
 138 2014-01-07 00:36:42 <maaku> same general data structure, but these are not UTXO proofs
 139 2014-01-07 00:36:51 agath has joined
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 141 2014-01-07 00:37:01 <maaku> since you want access to all inputs or all outputs, regardless of spent-ness
 142 2014-01-07 00:37:16 bderber has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 143 2014-01-07 00:37:25 <maaku> and you have applications for both TXIN and TXOUT commitments?
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 155 2014-01-07 00:43:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, anyone happen to know if `nc` et al can take input to send from a file?
 156 2014-01-07 00:43:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If so, 2:13:28 <andytoshi> you are welcome to write an IRC bot which shows up a few times a day to say "coinjoin at 5PM pacific" or whatever
 157 2014-01-07 00:43:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Could probably do that with cron and a script
 158 2014-01-07 00:44:28 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: nc host port <file
 159 2014-01-07 00:44:34 drayah_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 160 2014-01-07 00:44:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Figured.
 161 2014-01-07 00:44:56 ConvivialMatt has joined
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 163 2014-01-07 00:45:12 drayah has joined
 164 2014-01-07 00:46:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|andytoshi, idea: allow the user, when submitting a tx to coinjoiner, to specify how long they're willing to wait to get into a round
 165 2014-01-07 00:46:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That would allow you to make bigger rounds
 166 2014-01-07 00:47:36 Lbit has joined
 167 2014-01-07 00:47:43 <andytoshi> well, the concern is that people will forget about transactions and then jam the joiner without meaning to
 168 2014-01-07 00:48:00 <andytoshi> (ofc if they jam it deliberately, there's not much i can do without killing usability)
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 171 2014-01-07 00:48:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|andytoshi: ooh, maybe find an SMS gateway to use?
 172 2014-01-07 00:48:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Only half kidding there)
 173 2014-01-07 00:49:08 <andytoshi> :P that'd be great
 174 2014-01-07 00:49:09 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, why sms? with everyone having smartphones, email should suffice\
 175 2014-01-07 00:49:15 <andytoshi> "the next 5 messages are my raw tx"
 176 2014-01-07 00:49:28 <shesek> can't SIGHASH_SINGLE be used and ask the user's signature in advance?
 177 2014-01-07 00:49:41 <andytoshi> shesek: that ties inputs to outputs
 178 2014-01-07 00:49:45 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 179 2014-01-07 00:49:50 <shesek> though it'll only allow one-to-one mapping between inputs and outputs
 180 2014-01-07 00:49:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|andytoshi: I meant for notifying/reminding, not submitting :P
 181 2014-01-07 00:49:55 <shesek> oh. right.
 182 2014-01-07 00:50:05 <andytoshi> michagogo|cloud:  ohh, then that's a pretty good idea
 183 2014-01-07 00:50:09 <shesek> that was silly :)
 184 2014-01-07 00:50:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: heh, that defeats the pur-yeah
 185 2014-01-07 00:50:25 nightlingo has joined
 186 2014-01-07 00:50:31 <petertodd> maaku: well txin *contents* yes, but I'm dubious about providing that given how niche the application is
 187 2014-01-07 00:50:36 Zarutian has joined
 188 2014-01-07 00:50:44 <andytoshi> shesek: it also forces you to use as many inputs as outputs, otherwise i'd say "better than nothing"
 189 2014-01-07 00:51:14 <andytoshi> in that it'd be easier to use and would force analyzers to understand the protocol a little better
 190 2014-01-07 00:51:40 <shesek> I'm not sure if a false sense of security is really better than nothing in this case
 191 2014-01-07 00:51:56 <petertodd> maaku: txout contents, absolutely a index would be useful
 192 2014-01-07 00:51:58 <gmaxwell> shesek: "it depends"
 193 2014-01-07 00:52:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: wait, why are *you* still up? :-P
 194 2014-01-07 00:52:31 <shesek> heh, I'm almost always up at these hours :)
 195 2014-01-07 00:52:41 <gmaxwell> shesek: part of the purpose here is to prevent non-coinjoin users from being harmed by graph analysis... if we make graph analysis tools give useless results thats helpful.
 196 2014-01-07 00:53:14 SwampTony has joined
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 198 2014-01-07 00:54:37 <shesek> how would that make graph analysis less useful?
 199 2014-01-07 00:54:55 <shesek> it should be quite trivial to notice its SIGHASH_SINGLE and handle it properly
 200 2014-01-07 00:55:37 debiantoruser has joined
 201 2014-01-07 00:55:55 <andytoshi> well, it's trivial if you know to do it..
 202 2014-01-07 00:56:35 <andytoshi> also, if i saw a SIGHASH_SINGLE tx today i'd think "this is something weird" and not have any idea how many people were involved or the nature of the transaction
 203 2014-01-07 00:56:47 <petertodd> andytoshi: actually SIGHASH_SINGLE ties a single input to a single output *and* the index of that output, unfortunately
 204 2014-01-07 00:57:46 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 205 2014-01-07 00:57:47 <petertodd> andytoshi: which in turn implies the index of the input too...
 206 2014-01-07 00:58:09 <gmaxwell> yea, point.
 207 2014-01-07 00:58:10 <andytoshi> petertodd: understood, but unless you can say for sure "this is a coinjoin" you don't know if the input and output are owned by the same person, nor do you know which inputs are owned by the same people
 208 2014-01-07 00:58:15 * gmaxwell shakes his fist at the sighash flags
 209 2014-01-07 00:58:21 <andytoshi> shesek: agreed that we are providing no actual security here
 210 2014-01-07 00:58:36 <andytoshi> i'm just suggesting that we'd be confusing bad guys more than if we weren't doing anything at all
 211 2014-01-07 00:58:51 <shesek> well, I wouldn't want to be some freedom fighter somewhere who counted on coinjoin to hide him and then got caught by the authorities because of something like this
 212 2014-01-07 00:58:55 <shesek> a false sense of security can be really harmful
 213 2014-01-07 00:59:08 <petertodd> andytoshi: right, well it's more complex than that too, the input txins are committed to with SIGHASH_SINGLE unless used with ANYONECANPAY
 214 2014-01-07 00:59:15 <shesek> it was just a really really silly suggestion, I blame the the hour for that (its almost 3am here)
 215 2014-01-07 00:59:30 <andytoshi> petertodd: oh, i didn't realize that, that's irritating
 216 2014-01-07 00:59:37 greenspa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 217 2014-01-07 01:00:06 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: i've spent some time thinking about what sighash flags an alt might have to enable easy transaction pasting..
 218 2014-01-07 01:00:22 <gmaxwell> shesek: right, it's important to be clear about whats going on.
 219 2014-01-07 01:00:24 <petertodd> andytoshi: yup, now you can play weird games using both where you have the first input sign an output of greater value, and then the next one make up the difference, but that gets limiting quick and probably doesn't do much for privacy
 220 2014-01-07 01:00:31 <andytoshi> ..and it seems like there is no way to have transactions (a) be tamper-proof, and (b) be stapleable together without clearly being identifiable
 221 2014-01-07 01:00:42 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: well, that OWAS paper is what you want if you want private transaction pasting.
 222 2014-01-07 01:01:10 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: thats exactly what that OWAS paper I linked to earlier does, at the expense of moon math. (using pairing signatures)
 223 2014-01-07 01:01:12 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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 225 2014-01-07 01:01:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: the number of times that we need to invoke moon math is suggesting to me that bitcoin needs to go to the moon
 226 2014-01-07 01:01:59 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: oh, nice
 227 2014-01-07 01:02:06 <andytoshi> i'll try to get to that one this week then
 228 2014-01-07 01:02:17 debiantoruser has joined
 229 2014-01-07 01:02:32 <shesek> ┗(°0°)┛
 230 2014-01-07 01:02:37 <shesek> (sorry, couldn't resist)
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 232 2014-01-07 01:03:04 <shesek> :)
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 234 2014-01-07 01:04:39 <maaku> petertodd: well the txin contents are in the utxo delta + block contents
 235 2014-01-07 01:04:57 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 236 2014-01-07 01:05:20 <petertodd> maaku: right, but a standard and useful query to make is "has this txout been spent?"
 237 2014-01-07 01:05:29 <maaku> txout index would be looking for your coins, yes? what's the niche use of the txin index?
 238 2014-01-07 01:05:38 drayah has joined
 239 2014-01-07 01:06:12 <petertodd> maaku: the niche application is to be able to get a sorted list of scriptSig, or even <pushdata in scriptsig> like bloom filters do - but I don't think we should go down that route
 240 2014-01-07 01:07:11 <petertodd> maaku: the other interesting question is can whatever sorted trees we wind up with be generated co-operatively by multiple nodes without any one node having all the data (or bandwidth cost)
 241 2014-01-07 01:07:21 patcon has joined
 242 2014-01-07 01:07:55 <petertodd> maaku: bonus if you can somehow do that between untrusted nodes - but good luck there...
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 246 2014-01-07 01:10:17 <Azra-el> probably not the right channel to ask but i dunno where to ask it. is there a limit on how short a block time should be?  i mean.. would ~40 seconds be too low?
 247 2014-01-07 01:10:46 <petertodd> Azra-el: speed of light is a consideration if you want your coin to be decentralized
 248 2014-01-07 01:11:24 <Azra-el> mkay.. meaning? how fast would a signal travel or ?? :)
 249 2014-01-07 01:11:27 <petertodd> Azra-el: it's a tradeoff; there's no one right answer. keep in mind though that from a consumers point of view anything over a few seconds is much too long for a payment
 250 2014-01-07 01:11:57 <Azra-el> i know that. but if i understood correctly ... too short of a block time can generate orphans?
 251 2014-01-07 01:12:13 <petertodd> Azra-el: quite literally that. circumfrence of the earth * speed of light * big fudge-factor is a absolutely minimum time for the block to propagate
 252 2014-01-07 01:12:32 <petertodd> Azra-el: exactly, and even worse, it means that large, more centralized, pools are making more money than the small ones
 253 2014-01-07 01:12:41 <petertodd> (you never orphan yourself)
 254 2014-01-07 01:13:00 <Azra-el> but is there an estimate of the lowest ?
 255 2014-01-07 01:13:21 <maaku> Azra-el: geistgeld imploded with a time of something like 15s, iirc
 256 2014-01-07 01:13:26 <andytoshi> Azra-el: feathercoin has had serious convergence issues as well
 257 2014-01-07 01:13:31 <petertodd> Azra-el: that's like saying "how safe should a schoolbus be?"
 258 2014-01-07 01:13:31 <maaku> that's definately way, way too low
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 260 2014-01-07 01:14:04 <petertodd> maaku: what blocksize did geistgeld have?
 261 2014-01-07 01:14:13 <andytoshi> Azra-el: you also have to consider how big your blocks are, and how big they could be in the future, and how hard validation is...
 262 2014-01-07 01:14:17 <maaku> petertodd: originally 7 seconds, then hard forked to 15s iirc
 263 2014-01-07 01:14:27 <petertodd> maaku: size, not time :)
 264 2014-01-07 01:14:45 <maaku> oh standard 1mb I think ... but i doubt they ever hit that
 265 2014-01-07 01:14:54 <petertodd> maaku: lol!
 266 2014-01-07 01:14:57 <maaku> that'd be interestint to find out
 267 2014-01-07 01:15:08 <petertodd> maaku: I don't think I've ever seen an alt change that parameter...
 268 2014-01-07 01:15:16 <petertodd> BlueMatt: ^
 269 2014-01-07 01:15:30 <Azra-el> you lost me a bit on the blocksize. need to look that up :)
 270 2014-01-07 01:15:40 <petertodd> Azra-el: yes, you do...
 271 2014-01-07 01:15:43 <maaku> Azra-el: you will find that opinions differ. IMHO, *unless* you can get point-of-sale speeds of <1s (you can't), then you want the *largest* interblock time acceptable
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 274 2014-01-07 01:16:06 <andytoshi> my thoughts are exactly what maaku said
 275 2014-01-07 01:16:32 <maaku> 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes confirmation time doesn't make a difference in practice
 276 2014-01-07 01:16:39 <sipa> did anyone ever make an altcoin with a block time >10 minutes?
 277 2014-01-07 01:16:41 <maaku> but it has huge implications for SPV
 278 2014-01-07 01:16:42 <Azra-el> maaku ... POS times of <1s are bullshit ...
 279 2014-01-07 01:16:43 <petertodd> I set steamcoin to have a 1 month blocktime so that clipper ships could ferry blocks across the atlantic
 280 2014-01-07 01:17:24 <petertodd> Azra-el: remember that actual inter-block interval is a random poisson distribution, if you set block interval to 1s, you still get 10s waits, etc.
 281 2014-01-07 01:17:36 * maaku adds "MarsCoin" with a 30 minute block time to his todo list
 282 2014-01-07 01:17:49 <andytoshi> again, maaku types my thoughts...
 283 2014-01-07 01:17:53 <petertodd> Azra-el: set it to a "fast" 10s and you get nearly two minute waits...
 284 2014-01-07 01:18:26 <Azra-el> petertodd again... im just dipping my toes in the water .. a lot of missing knowledge.. but i'll get there
 285 2014-01-07 01:19:08 <gmaxwell> shorter blocktimes also dramatically increase costs for lite nodes. 600x more data is not fun.
 286 2014-01-07 01:19:21 <Azra-el> dogecoin has 60s afaik right?
 287 2014-01-07 01:19:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: a MMR could help that
 288 2014-01-07 01:19:29 <sipa> who cares about dogecoin?
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 290 2014-01-07 01:19:31 <gmaxwell> and in doing so also increase costs for proof systems.
 291 2014-01-07 01:19:52 <Azra-el> sipa ... it's a discussion .. not a validation of the coin .. :)
 292 2014-01-07 01:19:55 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I've thought that before, but actually proof of sum difficulty is perhaps harder than it seems.
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 294 2014-01-07 01:20:16 <petertodd> gmaxwell: why doesn't interactive sampling work?
 295 2014-01-07 01:20:35 <gmaxwell> petertodd: interactive can work, NI proofs end up being big though.
 296 2014-01-07 01:20:54 <petertodd> gmaxwell: right, though for SPV I think interactive should be ok
 297 2014-01-07 01:21:04 <gmaxwell> Interactive doesn't work in all contexts, consider the 2-way-binding stuff where a NI SPV proof gets embeded in the host chain.
 298 2014-01-07 01:21:33 tesserajk has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 299 2014-01-07 01:21:44 <gmaxwell> And a cut and choose needs a fairly large number of points to get acceptable security.
 300 2014-01-07 01:22:10 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, niche application though :) anyway, more likely is you'd be doing this for some kind of blockdag anyway
 301 2014-01-07 01:22:10 <gmaxwell> (I mean a fiat-shamir ni cut and choose)
 302 2014-01-07 01:23:15 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I don't think NI-SPV is that niche, it's applicable to all sorts of things, e.g. fidelity bonds/sin for example.. or data timestamping. any place where you want to verify data from bitcoin outside of bitcoin.
 303 2014-01-07 01:24:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I mean if you actually had a 1s blockchain, it'd be some merging blockdag in which case I haven't thought through exactly how it'd work
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 306 2014-01-07 01:26:22 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, well high hashvalue highway.. where you are merged mining a bunch of octave levels.. e.g.  diff 1x 2x 4x 8x 16x 32x... all link back to the last at the same multipler
 307 2014-01-07 01:26:34 <gmaxwell> and then you can actually get compact proofs.
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 309 2014-01-07 01:30:58 <Azra-el> now i have a question about nTargetTimespan .. any rules on that?
 310 2014-01-07 01:31:13 Plinker_ has joined
 311 2014-01-07 01:33:17 <maaku> Azra-el: grep the source for where it's used
 312 2014-01-07 01:33:22 <maaku> it's only a handful of locations
 313 2014-01-07 01:34:35 <Azra-el> well as far as i understand it... it's the amount of time it takes until the diff is recalculated am I correct?
 314 2014-01-07 01:35:55 <maaku> yes
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 316 2014-01-07 01:38:36 <Azra-el> bitcoin is 2 weeks.. litecoin is 3.5 days ... so with 10 min per block ... retargeting on bitcoin is done @ 2016 blocks ... with 2.5 min per block  retargeting on litecoin is done @ 2016 also
 317 2014-01-07 01:39:52 <maaku> Azra-el: this isn't #design-your-altcoin-help
 318 2014-01-07 01:40:13 <maaku> we'll entertain questions so long as they are technically interesting
 319 2014-01-07 01:40:25 <maaku> but it is off topic
 320 2014-01-07 01:40:37 <Azra-el> it is not. of course. for me personally right now it's an opportunity to learn. what's behind the reasoning. i'm sorry for the trouble i guess
 321 2014-01-07 01:41:06 <maaku> ok in that mindset, remember that PoW is a random (Poisson) process
 322 2014-01-07 01:41:22 <maaku> so at the same hashrate, the next block could be 2 minutes, 10 minutes, or 2 hours from now
 323 2014-01-07 01:41:51 <maaku> you need a large window therefore to get a large number of samples to get an accurate read of what the current hash rate is, to know how much to adjust it
 324 2014-01-07 01:42:31 <maaku> or you can do something more complicated than a simple average, but alas that is what Satoshi chose
 325 2014-01-07 01:42:41 <Azra-el> i see.
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 327 2014-01-07 01:44:18 <maaku> IIRC, with 2016 samples you should expect about 0.5% variance
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 329 2014-01-07 01:45:40 <Azra-el> so bottom line it's called target because that's in "optimal" conditions, when one block comes at 10 minutes after the other ...  it might come in 2 minutes .. or in 30 minutes.. is an approximation. and so is the targetTimespan .. an aproximation of how long it would take 2016 blocks.
 330 2014-01-07 01:45:47 <Azra-el> am I in the vicinity?
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 333 2014-01-07 01:46:47 <maaku> yes.
 334 2014-01-07 01:47:09 <Azra-el> phew
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 337 2014-01-07 01:47:36 <maaku> it's supposed to take 14 days. let's say it actually took 13. then the network is 14/13 = 107.7% it's previous speed, and so the difficulty increases by that amount
 338 2014-01-07 01:48:28 <Azra-el> anyway thank you for your patience. i'm just a bit fascinated at the moment with the whole thing .. whats going on behind the scenes...
 339 2014-01-07 01:49:12 <maaku> no worries, keep the questions focused on bitcoin and you'll get help here (if it's source code related, otherwise #bitcoin)
 340 2014-01-07 01:49:40 <Azra-el> it increases with 7.7% right? and if it takes 20 days .... the network hashrate is lower hence the diff will decrease
 341 2014-01-07 01:49:50 <maaku> yes
 342 2014-01-07 01:50:08 <maaku> with a cap of no more than 4x in either direction
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 344 2014-01-07 01:51:01 <Azra-el> im trying to keep it related to the coin . ofc i'm making an alt to see what is what. for example this .. .the 2016 blocks i didn't know that it was chosen because of the variance due to the poisson distribution
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 350 2014-01-07 01:53:27 <Azra-el> but i'm mainly doing this because I want to understand the behind the scenes.. because i had an idea about a POS device... and I'm trying to see if its complete bullcrap or not :)
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 355 2014-01-07 01:55:50 <theorbtwo> Azra-el: I think it's more fair to say that 2016 comes from 10 minutes and two weeks then that 2016 comes from the poisson distribution.  The poisson distribution is why it can't be 10 minutes and 10 minutes, but given that 10 minutes and a fortnight are nice even human numbers and 2016 isn't...
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 357 2014-01-07 01:56:54 <Azra-el> lol yeah that's what i meant ...
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 390 2014-01-07 02:35:30 wyager has joined
 391 2014-01-07 02:36:02 <wyager> gmaxwell: What did you mean when you said there was research to make embedding data in the blockchain "impossible"?
 392 2014-01-07 02:37:28 <gmaxwell> wyager: several people have been working on techniques that can be used to prevent using the network to store or relay unrelated data.
 393 2014-01-07 02:37:55 <wyager> Interesting. Any suggested reading? Can't see how that's feasible in a general context
 394 2014-01-07 02:38:01 Prattler has joined
 395 2014-01-07 02:38:51 <gmaxwell> wyager: Well the first idea in this space was my p2sh^2 idea: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=30705609
 396 2014-01-07 02:39:05 <gmaxwell> which I elaborated on at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/namecoin_that_sucks_less
 397 2014-01-07 02:39:36 <gmaxwell> though there are now some more powerful ideas that haven't been published yet which also keep the data off the relay network.
 398 2014-01-07 02:40:14 cayspekko has joined
 399 2014-01-07 02:42:04 <wyager> Ha
 400 2014-01-07 02:42:11 <wyager> I like the p2sh^2 thing
 401 2014-01-07 02:43:46 <gmaxwell> I dunno if we'll ever deploy something like that in Bitcoin— perhaps not. But data storage is a potential threat to the system, so it's good to have tools up our sleeves.
 402 2014-01-07 02:43:53 <wyager> So the goal is to prevent unprunable data storage, not data storage in general? That is a much more feasible goal :p
 403 2014-01-07 02:44:02 <wallet42> what about OP_RETURN?
 404 2014-01-07 02:44:11 <wyager> He mentioned that too
 405 2014-01-07 02:44:15 <wyager> hash the data before it
 406 2014-01-07 02:44:21 <wyager> you can prune the data and keep the hash
 407 2014-01-07 02:44:41 <gmaxwell> wyager: earlier today in here I described a self-certifyable hash, a hash that proves its a hash.
 408 2014-01-07 02:44:58 <wyager> Interesting...
 409 2014-01-07 02:45:05 <wyager> How?
 410 2014-01-07 02:45:11 <gmaxwell> wyager: I can prevent data storage in general too though p2sh^2 didn't discuss that.
 411 2014-01-07 02:46:23 <gmaxwell> wyager: http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2014/01/06#l1389050948
 412 2014-01-07 02:46:55 <wyager> With the same concept? Just make people hash everything so you can prune the storage? Or actually prevent it from going in the chain in the first place?
 413 2014-01-07 02:48:06 <gmaxwell> wyager: actually prevent the data in the first place (basically only allow data which you can prove is hashed/encrypted/etc)
 414 2014-01-07 02:48:15 <wyager> I see
 415 2014-01-07 02:48:22 <wyager> I'm reading the self-certifying hash thing now
 416 2014-01-07 02:50:31 <Luke-Jr> wyager: the goal is to prevent data storage completely
 417 2014-01-07 02:51:20 <Luke-Jr> wallet42: OP_RETURN is "we can't stop you from raping us at the moment, so please be gentle!"
 418 2014-01-07 02:52:33 <wyager> so you want to scrap it?
 419 2014-01-07 02:52:43 <wyager> or just enforce certifiably hashed data?
 420 2014-01-07 02:53:05 <Luke-Jr> wyager: none of the stop-data-storage proposals so far are practical to be deployed
 421 2014-01-07 02:53:17 <Luke-Jr> (outside of an emergency situation, anyhow)
 422 2014-01-07 02:54:16 <gmaxwell> There are two major areas of risk data storage creates for bitcoin:  If data storage people outbid transactions for space, it will reduce the usefulness of bitcoin as a currency, perhaps creating a vicious cycle which ends in thats all bitcoin is useful for,  and  if people abuse bitcoin to store unlawful data it may create pressure to censor the system that causes centralization (e.g. you're not allowed to run your own node because ...
 423 2014-01-07 02:54:22 <gmaxwell> ... syncing it up requires feteching the bad data), this would be multiplied by the data requiring huge amounts of storage meaning it was costly to run a node regardless.
 424 2014-01-07 02:54:56 <gmaxwell> who knows if these problems will ever be pratical, — but it would be good to have the technology know to address those things.  And the threat of deploying them may discourage some of the abusive uses.
 425 2014-01-07 02:54:56 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 426 2014-01-07 02:55:31 <gmaxwell> (There are other blockchains specifically for storing data... uh. I think it's a terrible idea, but hey, their system— I wish them luck)
 427 2014-01-07 02:55:31 agnostic98 has joined
 428 2014-01-07 02:55:45 <gmaxwell> (e.g. "Datacoin")
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 433 2014-01-07 02:58:29 <wyager> I see. I must admit, from a political perspective I am very wary of an proposal to "censor" the blockchain. But I agree that it's good to have the tech ready to use, and obviously there are practical reasons that may outweigh political ones
 434 2014-01-07 02:59:44 <gmaxwell> wyager: Bitcoin is not a censorship resistant system to begin with, miners may/can/do freely filter things— and if they didn't someone with a simple while true loop would totally blow up the system.
 435 2014-01-07 03:00:01 <Luke-Jr> wyager: the blockchain was never intended for data, and putting data in it is forcing people to store it against their consent. it's also entirely void of real use cases.
 436 2014-01-07 03:00:05 <gmaxwell> basically by excluding data that would try to make bitcoin interesting to censor, bitcoin as a whole becomes more robust.
 437 2014-01-07 03:00:53 <petertodd> gmaxwell: currently they can't effectively filter things if they don't know what they are, hence if the threat model is blacklists steganography works just fine
 438 2014-01-07 03:01:02 <gmaxwell> yea, usually the arguments for storing data in the blockchain are pretty terrible, e.g. cost externalization ("I'll make these bitcoin people reliably store my data for me") or just misguided, e.g. "I want to timestamp my data"— which can be done.
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 440 2014-01-07 03:01:21 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, well thats why I mentioned before "prove the data was encrypted"
 441 2014-01-07 03:01:41 <gmaxwell> er "I want to timestamp my data" — which can be done without putting the data into bitcoin
 442 2014-01-07 03:01:52 <wyager> Luke-Jr: By that logic, couldn't you argue that everyone is "forced to store data against their consent"? What if I don't want to store P2SH transactions? Obviously this is a facetious example, but I would be very wary about making such arguments
 443 2014-01-07 03:02:09 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 444 2014-01-07 03:02:18 <gmaxwell> wyager: Just because an argument doesn't yield crisp boundaries doesn't mean it can't inform a discussion.
 445 2014-01-07 03:02:23 <wyager> Of course
 446 2014-01-07 03:02:29 <Luke-Jr> wyager: we all bought into bitcoin with the understanding that full nodes need to store the data for *bitcoin transactions*
 447 2014-01-07 03:02:33 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm not talking about hypothetical future scenarios, I'm talking about the reality right now + blacklists
 448 2014-01-07 03:02:59 <Luke-Jr> wyager: so, every single person using bitcoin has consented to storing that data
 449 2014-01-07 03:03:00 <petertodd> gmaxwell: right now the blockchain *is* a pretty good jam-proof network if you can afford it
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 452 2014-01-07 03:03:05 <gmaxwell> wyager: you can't draw brightline rules from what luke's saying but in principle, bitcoin is a digital currency— there really isn't any ambiguity about that. People creating 1e-8 value outputs to store data ... is really an unrelated use.
 453 2014-01-07 03:03:41 <gmaxwell> wyager: so even though there is perhaps a slippery slope that makes drawing a rule out of it hard, it's still an important point.
 454 2014-01-07 03:04:26 <gmaxwell> Also, as I said, flip side, miners can't not censor in some manner or the first genius with while true {send to myself} takes the system out.
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 457 2014-01-07 03:05:47 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm not going to call a fixed blocksize censorship any more than I'd call "you can't afford to buy a front-page ad on the times" censorship
 458 2014-01-07 03:05:55 <gmaxwell> petertodd: very low data rate at least. We can't totally close subliminal channels. I think we can come pretty close.
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 460 2014-01-07 03:06:25 <gmaxwell> petertodd: it is a kind of censorship, esp in the presence of hostile forces which would outbid you specifically with the intent of displacing you.
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 462 2014-01-07 03:06:37 <gmaxwell> (something which has been done in advertising, in fact!)
 463 2014-01-07 03:06:41 cads has joined
 464 2014-01-07 03:07:21 <wyager> Agreed. But I am afraid of creating a precedent of being excessively focused on making sure only data that "belongs" in the blockchain goes there.
 465 2014-01-07 03:07:34 <petertodd> gmaxwell: like I say, modulo invasive p2sh^2 v2 applied to scriptPubKey contents, there's very little you can do - you can easily stuff data in pubkeys that look no different from any other
 466 2014-01-07 03:07:46 <wyager> Where what "belongs" is perhaps up for debate to an uncomfortable degree
 467 2014-01-07 03:08:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: basically, you need your p2sh^2 + MAST and proof of each untaked branch probably
 468 2014-01-07 03:08:07 Eiii has joined
 469 2014-01-07 03:08:32 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well for the signature itself you can move the whole signature behind a SNARK.
 470 2014-01-07 03:08:51 <Luke-Jr> wyager: there are ways to get the same effects without putting it in the blockchain, in this case
 471 2014-01-07 03:09:02 <Luke-Jr> wyager: mere data can always be merged mined
 472 2014-01-07 03:09:36 <Luke-Jr> wyager: then storing it is opt-in
 473 2014-01-07 03:09:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, and this is -dev, not -wizards :) I *do* accept you can make *a* system that has practically no data potential, but bitcoin is really far from that system.
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 475 2014-01-07 03:09:54 <wyager> Of course. Again, I agree with the practicality of these measures, but it is very easy to let practicality get in the way of other goals
 476 2014-01-07 03:10:14 <gmaxwell> wyager: yea sure, but you can at least look at extremes, I don't think its ambigious that a non-currency use, where people put in data for the express purpose of other people— who are not being compensated— being forced to store it as a price of participating with the currency, is not so hot.  And orders of magnitude worse when possession of the data is a strict liability crime in a big chunk of the world...
 477 2014-01-07 03:10:15 <petertodd> wyager: +1
 478 2014-01-07 03:10:17 <BlueMatt> petertodd: meh, I sold coingen
 479 2014-01-07 03:10:23 <petertodd> BlueMatt: pity
 480 2014-01-07 03:10:25 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: for too darn little!
 481 2014-01-07 03:10:48 <BlueMatt> petertodd: I dont have time to dev it and the point was to get it to produce shittons of alts of the same quality we see today
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 483 2014-01-07 03:10:53 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: the point /wasnt/ to make money
 484 2014-01-07 03:10:59 <BlueMatt> the cost was really to limit server dos
 485 2014-01-07 03:11:03 <Luke-Jr> lol
 486 2014-01-07 03:11:19 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: you accidentally made a new business model :p
 487 2014-01-07 03:11:19 <wyager> BlueMatt: I'm a big fan of Coingen. Great idea
 488 2014-01-07 03:11:25 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you can never feel too bad about an honest trade that deflects funds away from dumb things to better ones.
 489 2014-01-07 03:11:37 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: too bad you sold it with an exclusive term.. it'd have been useful for -wizards games
 490 2014-01-07 03:12:34 wyager has quit (Quit: wyager)
 491 2014-01-07 03:12:52 wyager has joined
 492 2014-01-07 03:12:56 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 493 2014-01-07 03:14:02 JimJones_ has joined
 494 2014-01-07 03:14:26 <maaku> i could probably whip up another one in a few hours
 495 2014-01-07 03:14:53 <maaku> kicking myself for not seeing the potential to redirect some near-term funds...
 496 2014-01-07 03:14:56 Zunonia has left ()
 497 2014-01-07 03:15:15 debiantoruser has joined
 498 2014-01-07 03:15:34 <gmaxwell> hey, neat: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ulbj7/would_this_mitigate_the_doublespend_potential_of/
 499 2014-01-07 03:15:45 cads has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 500 2014-01-07 03:15:59 <wyager> find . -regex .*\.[hcp]* -exec sed -i'' -e 's/Bitcoin/{$other}/g' {} \;
 501 2014-01-07 03:16:01 <gmaxwell> (neat that someone else independantly proposed it finally)
 502 2014-01-07 03:16:02 <wyager> :p
 503 2014-01-07 03:17:38 oPen_syLar has joined
 504 2014-01-07 03:17:41 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 505 2014-01-07 03:17:58 agricocb has joined
 506 2014-01-07 03:20:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: didn't petertodd come up with it independently as well?
 507 2014-01-07 03:20:24 JimJones_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 508 2014-01-07 03:20:50 Gabit has joined
 509 2014-01-07 03:21:27 <gmaxwell> Dunno? it's less surprising when people who talk to each other a lot think of the same things.
 510 2014-01-07 03:21:33 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: I don't think so
 511 2014-01-07 03:22:43 <gmaxwell> I'm still not quite sure how a pool should handle fees in such a scheme, if it doesn't know/hasn't accepted all the inputs. One way would be to not pool for the fees, but thats a bit ugly.
 512 2014-01-07 03:23:19 yubrew_ has joined
 513 2014-01-07 03:23:46 <Luke-Jr> yeah, probably will end up needing some extensions in the end
 514 2014-01-07 03:24:26 <Gabit> Hi guys, are there any good suggestions for maintaining blockchain size with bitcoin-qt? Where I could search for those?
 515 2014-01-07 03:24:37 <petertodd> frankly given the important of latency to profitability, especially in the future, I just can't see the idea working without some significant changes to the way mining works
 516 2014-01-07 03:26:05 <maaku> Gabit: what do you mean by maintaining blockchain size
 517 2014-01-07 03:27:07 <Gabit> maaku: Well it is getting bit bloated, and I have an idea and I want to compare it to previous ideas...
 518 2014-01-07 03:29:13 <maaku> i just don't know what you mean by "maintaining" - pruning?
 519 2014-01-07 03:29:16 <wyager> Question about getblocktemplate: Would you need a full Bitcoin node running to source transactions from random nodes?
 520 2014-01-07 03:29:28 <maaku> you don't maintain the block chain size, it's always growing
 521 2014-01-07 03:29:29 <wyager> That would exclude e.g. Raspberry Pi-based mining machines
 522 2014-01-07 03:29:50 <maaku> wyager: yes
 523 2014-01-07 03:29:56 <wyager> OK
 524 2014-01-07 03:30:04 <maaku> maybe in the future that won't be the case
 525 2014-01-07 03:30:23 <maaku> with proper extensions you won't have to maintain the utxo set, so long as you can find peers willing to give you proofs
 526 2014-01-07 03:30:39 <maaku> but with current technology, you'd run the risk of including an invalid transaction and receiving no credit
 527 2014-01-07 03:30:48 <wyager> exactly
 528 2014-01-07 03:30:53 <wyager> I see
 529 2014-01-07 03:31:03 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: it took like 3 days of 4-hours/day to build it....
 530 2014-01-07 03:31:06 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: go build it ;)
 531 2014-01-07 03:32:27 <Gabit> We could use verified snapshots of all announced addresses and balances when diff changes. Not everyone needs a full chain.
 532 2014-01-07 03:32:57 <wyager> Balances? Don't you need all verified touts?
 533 2014-01-07 03:33:03 <wyager> *txouts
 534 2014-01-07 03:33:06 <maaku> yes, you doo
 535 2014-01-07 03:33:22 <maaku> Gabit: the block chain isn't a ledger
 536 2014-01-07 03:33:44 <maaku> but you can create structures which summarize portions of the unspent transaction output set
 537 2014-01-07 03:34:29 <maaku> but you can't fully trust these without witnessing the whole block chain anyway
 538 2014-01-07 03:34:31 <Gabit> I do understand that... But I would like to try it how I could make it work..  that why I asked if there are any discussions available..
 539 2014-01-07 03:35:00 <maaku> ok see for example https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88208.0
 540 2014-01-07 03:35:20 <Gabit> thx
 541 2014-01-07 03:36:35 luml8 has joined
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 548 2014-01-07 03:56:22 <wyager> gmaxwell: I don't know the very theoretical math behind EC crypto. Only a topical understanding of how/why it works, so I don't really get what an EC pairing is. But would it be correct to say that your suggestion works because you can't easily construct a DH pubkey that contains arbitrary data?
 549 2014-01-07 03:56:59 <wyager> *ECDH pubkey
 550 2014-01-07 03:57:14 <lechuga__> heh
 551 2014-01-07 03:57:14 <gmaxwell> wyager: only with exponential work, or otherwise you could solve discrete logs fast.
 552 2014-01-07 03:57:38 <lechuga__> wyger: i posed the gbt question on reddit
 553 2014-01-07 03:57:42 <lechuga__> <- andyd00d
 554 2014-01-07 03:57:46 <lechuga__> i dont think u need a local node
 555 2014-01-07 03:57:48 <gmaxwell> the signature proves you know the private key behind the public key.
 556 2014-01-07 03:57:58 <lechuga__> wyager even
 557 2014-01-07 03:58:02 rdymac has joined
 558 2014-01-07 03:58:09 sassamo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 559 2014-01-07 03:58:37 sassamo has joined
 560 2014-01-07 03:58:37 <gmaxwell> lechuga__: a local node is very strongly preferrable, since then you know the data you're trying to mine is honest... e.g. you're an actual miner, not just someone else who's hashing to get paid.
 561 2014-01-07 03:59:09 <gmaxwell> lechuga__: if people did exactly as you proposed there would be a big incentive to put up a lot of nodes that gave out bad GBTs in order to trip up other miners who don't run their own nodes.
 562 2014-01-07 03:59:33 <lechuga__> gmaxwell: couldn't they be weeded out and blacklisted?
 563 2014-01-07 03:59:40 <lechuga__> with simpel crossverify checks
 564 2014-01-07 04:00:37 <lechuga__> also setting up a lot of nodes has a serious cost
 565 2014-01-07 04:00:58 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 566 2014-01-07 04:00:59 <lechuga__> doesnt seem worth it if they're easily identified anyway
 567 2014-01-07 04:01:28 <wyager> That's a super sketchy way of doing it
 568 2014-01-07 04:02:08 <lechuga__> i guess i dont see why its all that sketchy
 569 2014-01-07 04:02:47 <wyager> Because there's like a million ways to pull off a basically unbeatable sybil attack that would spam the network with bat GBTs if people just implicitly trusted them
 570 2014-01-07 04:03:10 <wyager> I don't think blacklisting is particularly practical
 571 2014-01-07 04:04:27 <lechuga__> hmm i guess there isnt a real cost to one of these bad nodes if they just blast fake txns
 572 2014-01-07 04:04:45 Krellan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 573 2014-01-07 04:04:49 <lechuga__> but you would know pretty easily if they only sent you fake txns
 574 2014-01-07 04:05:04 <lechuga__> since theyd be mutually exclusive with everything th eother nodes are telling u
 575 2014-01-07 04:05:05 <wyager> But what if they just sent you one fake txn
 576 2014-01-07 04:05:08 justonegy has joined
 577 2014-01-07 04:05:14 <wyager> That's all they need
 578 2014-01-07 04:05:18 <lechuga__> ud check the othr nodes u spoke to
 579 2014-01-07 04:05:20 <wyager> Then all your work is for nothing
 580 2014-01-07 04:05:23 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 581 2014-01-07 04:05:25 <lechuga__> if that txn wasnt in the other sets
 582 2014-01-07 04:05:28 <lechuga__> u ignore it
 583 2014-01-07 04:06:01 <wyager> What if someone set up a botnet? They could make tens of thousands of secret malicious nodes and all of a sudden put every single non-node pool miner out of commission
 584 2014-01-07 04:06:02 <maaku> <lechuga__> also setting up a lot of nodes has a serious cost <-- it has approx zero cost for someone with appropriate resources / connections
 585 2014-01-07 04:06:02 <wyager> boom
 586 2014-01-07 04:06:09 <wyager> network hash rate drops to 10%
 587 2014-01-07 04:06:23 <wyager> They just lie in wait until the moment is right
 588 2014-01-07 04:06:58 <lechuga__> how many nodes are there right now
 589 2014-01-07 04:07:12 <wyager> Not as many as there are botneted computers
 590 2014-01-07 04:07:15 <lechuga__> heh
 591 2014-01-07 04:07:24 <wallet42> http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/
 592 2014-01-07 04:07:38 Guest2985 has joined
 593 2014-01-07 04:07:41 <wallet42> 140,000
 594 2014-01-07 04:07:52 <lechuga__> thx
 595 2014-01-07 04:08:03 <wyager> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srizbi_botnet
 596 2014-01-07 04:08:07 <wyager> 450,000 machines
 597 2014-01-07 04:09:06 Emcy_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 598 2014-01-07 04:09:32 <wyager> That would be way easier than a 51% attack. Now, it's more like 51%*(percent of network hashing power connected to a full node) attack
 599 2014-01-07 04:09:52 <wyager> Which I'm guessing is alarmingly small
 600 2014-01-07 04:10:05 <maaku> there's far, far less than 140,000 full nodes out there
 601 2014-01-07 04:10:14 Emcy has joined
 602 2014-01-07 04:10:24 Emcy has quit (Changing host)
 603 2014-01-07 04:10:24 Emcy has joined
 604 2014-01-07 04:10:32 <lechuga__> hmm
 605 2014-01-07 04:10:56 Emcy has quit (Client Quit)
 606 2014-01-07 04:10:58 <lechuga__> couldnt u just verify your list with the transaction list returned to ur gbt call to the pool node?
 607 2014-01-07 04:11:06 <lechuga__> actually nope
 608 2014-01-07 04:11:20 coiners has quit (Read error: No route to host)
 609 2014-01-07 04:11:52 <maaku> lechuga__: you cannot simply trust other people with this
 610 2014-01-07 04:12:04 <lechuga__> but the botnet would all have to run a full node
 611 2014-01-07 04:12:29 <lechuga__> or u could tell they were fake
 612 2014-01-07 04:12:29 <maaku> lechuga__: no, they don't have to
 613 2014-01-07 04:12:34 <maaku> how?
 614 2014-01-07 04:13:13 <maaku> you pose queries to them? nevermind that the p2p network doesn't support that, but the botnet controller could always provide the response
 615 2014-01-07 04:13:16 <lechuga__> hmmm yeah i guess they could use a handful of real nodes to answer any potential verification u could attempt
 616 2014-01-07 04:13:31 <wyager> lechuga__: The pool can always exclude whatever transactions they like, for example the legitimate first spend
 617 2014-01-07 04:14:19 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
 618 2014-01-07 04:14:21 <wyager> If you based your trust on what the majority of connected nodes tell you, you're vulnerable to a botnet attack
 619 2014-01-07 04:14:42 <lechuga__> your mining efforts are yeah
 620 2014-01-07 04:14:46 <wyager> If you base your trust on what the pool operator says, that's a little better, because you implicitly trusted the operator
 621 2014-01-07 04:15:16 <wyager> The best would be if you don't trust anyone, but as far as I can tell that requires a full node in this case (I may be wrong though)
 622 2014-01-07 04:16:20 <lechuga__> what if there were a verifytxns rpc call u coudl send back to the pool operator with the transactions u got from randoms
 623 2014-01-07 04:16:30 <maaku> the best option is to support utxo proof commitment extensions that let you do this decentralized
 624 2014-01-07 04:16:58 <maaku> lechuga__: and the pool says no, not valid? even if it is?
 625 2014-01-07 04:17:04 <maaku> you can't outsource this
 626 2014-01-07 04:17:10 <wyager> lechuga__: Then they can "block" valid txns
 627 2014-01-07 04:17:11 <lechuga__> then they're just sabotaging themself
 628 2014-01-07 04:17:17 <wyager> No, they're not
 629 2014-01-07 04:17:28 <wyager> they're doing the same thing as if they pulled off a double-spend attack
 630 2014-01-07 04:17:40 <lechuga__> but their hashing powr is reduced
 631 2014-01-07 04:17:44 <lechuga__> since u wont be doing work now
 632 2014-01-07 04:18:06 <wyager> You will be doing work. You will be mining a block without that transaction in it
 633 2014-01-07 04:18:45 XX01XX has joined
 634 2014-01-07 04:19:00 <lechuga__> but how can the operator (or whoever hacked the operator) double spend then
 635 2014-01-07 04:19:15 <lechuga__> they can only deny txns into a block
 636 2014-01-07 04:19:21 <lechuga__> they cant insert double-spending ones
 637 2014-01-07 04:20:07 [7] has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 638 2014-01-07 04:20:08 <wyager> Right. So they insert the double spending ones, tell the miners that those are valid, and then tell the miners that the original transactions are invalid
 639 2014-01-07 04:20:25 <lechuga__> whoa
 640 2014-01-07 04:20:28 <wyager> Now the miners will ignore the original, legitimate transaction
 641 2014-01-07 04:20:36 <lechuga__> wait
 642 2014-01-07 04:20:42 <lechuga__> im getting txns from random nodes
 643 2014-01-07 04:20:52 <lechuga__> lets say some of them included "bad" txns
 644 2014-01-07 04:20:56 <wyager> OK
 645 2014-01-07 04:20:56 <lechuga__> and
 646 2014-01-07 04:21:03 <lechuga__> im getting txns from the pool node im affiliated with
 647 2014-01-07 04:21:12 <wyager> Yes
 648 2014-01-07 04:21:12 <lechuga__> and lets say they contain "bad" txns too
 649 2014-01-07 04:21:16 <lechuga__> everyone hates me basically
 650 2014-01-07 04:21:20 <wyager> How would you know?
 651 2014-01-07 04:21:23 h3ron has joined
 652 2014-01-07 04:21:25 <lechuga__> so
 653 2014-01-07 04:21:31 <wyager> The only way to know for sure what is bad and what isn't is to run a full node
 654 2014-01-07 04:21:36 <lechuga__> i send the random txns back to my pool operator
 655 2014-01-07 04:21:36 TheSeven has joined
 656 2014-01-07 04:21:39 <wyager> or do something clever that I haven't though tof
 657 2014-01-07 04:21:41 <wyager> *of
 658 2014-01-07 04:21:44 <lechuga__> anyones he doesnt like he tells me arent valid
 659 2014-01-07 04:21:46 <wyager> Sure
 660 2014-01-07 04:21:55 h3ron has left ()
 661 2014-01-07 04:22:00 <lechuga__> ok
 662 2014-01-07 04:22:19 <lechuga__> so now im left with a set of pool-approved nodes *but* it doesnt include their double-spend attempts either
 663 2014-01-07 04:22:25 <lechuga__> er pool-approved txns
 664 2014-01-07 04:22:50 <lechuga__> i guess if i happen to be speakign with all botnet nodes
 665 2014-01-07 04:22:58 <lechuga__> i could try hashing nothign but the coinbase
 666 2014-01-07 04:23:09 <lechuga__> but if that did happen i could reshuffle as it were
 667 2014-01-07 04:23:12 <lechuga__> and find other nodes
 668 2014-01-07 04:24:23 blochchain has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 669 2014-01-07 04:24:27 <wyager> OK, so in the end you're left with a few options: You can either trust the majority of your connected peers (bad idea) trust your pool operator (mediocre idea) not actually mine any transactions (bad idea, your pool might not allow this either) or just verify all txns yourself (good idea)
 670 2014-01-07 04:24:31 justonegy has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 671 2014-01-07 04:25:26 <lechuga__> but the only way a double-spend happens with this model is if
 672 2014-01-07 04:25:32 <lechuga__> a) the pool is compormised
 673 2014-01-07 04:25:38 <lechuga__> b) and they have a botnet
 674 2014-01-07 04:26:02 wemeetagain has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 675 2014-01-07 04:26:23 <wyager> I see. You mean ignore any "bad" transactions from *either* the pool *or* the rest of the network?
 676 2014-01-07 04:26:28 <lechuga__> right
 677 2014-01-07 04:26:38 <Luke-Jr> there's another option
 678 2014-01-07 04:26:40 <lechuga__> !xor
 679 2014-01-07 04:26:40 <gribble> (xor <password> <text>) -- Returns <text> XOR-encrypted with <password>. See http://www.yoe.org/developer/xor.html for information about XOR encryption.
 680 2014-01-07 04:26:48 <lechuga__> whoa didnt know that was a command
 681 2014-01-07 04:27:05 <Luke-Jr> use Foopool as your pool, and Barpolicy as your transaction policy provider
 682 2014-01-07 04:27:29 <wyager> Yeah, I was going to suggest that
 683 2014-01-07 04:27:38 <wyager> separate txn verification from block template provider
 684 2014-01-07 04:28:05 <lechuga__> who would txn verify
 685 2014-01-07 04:28:12 <wyager> Also opens the possibility of running your own txn verification server
 686 2014-01-07 04:28:23 <lechuga__> where does Barpolicy come from
 687 2014-01-07 04:28:31 <wyager> You have a hundred raspberry Pis running ASICs and one full PC running a verification gizmo
 688 2014-01-07 04:28:32 <Luke-Jr> lechuga__: anyone who wants to
 689 2014-01-07 04:29:03 <lechuga__> hmm
 690 2014-01-07 04:29:15 agnostic98 has joined
 691 2014-01-07 04:29:18 <lechuga__> you could actually verify againt eligius' Barpolicy
 692 2014-01-07 04:29:27 <lechuga__> when using ghash's Foopool
 693 2014-01-07 04:29:33 <Luke-Jr> that way if they wanted to, miners could mine on BTCGuild, but use Eligius's policy
 694 2014-01-07 04:29:40 <lechuga__> heh jinx
 695 2014-01-07 04:29:40 <Luke-Jr> right
 696 2014-01-07 04:29:46 <lechuga__> ya that sounds ideal
 697 2014-01-07 04:29:58 <lechuga__> is there sufficient protocl to act as Barpolicy now
 698 2014-01-07 04:29:58 <Luke-Jr> well, ideal has everyone with their own policy node
 699 2014-01-07 04:30:01 <Luke-Jr> yes
 700 2014-01-07 04:30:03 <lechuga__> true
 701 2014-01-07 04:30:07 <Luke-Jr> GBT without coinbasetxn specified ;)
 702 2014-01-07 04:30:12 <lechuga__> haha
 703 2014-01-07 04:30:13 <lechuga__> right
 704 2014-01-07 04:30:41 <lechuga__> thats smart
 705 2014-01-07 04:30:41 <Luke-Jr> lechuga__: btw, are you just here to brainstorm, or help code this? :D
 706 2014-01-07 04:30:52 <lechuga__> i may as well help
 707 2014-01-07 04:31:05 <Luke-Jr> as gmaxwell hinted, I'm short on time to get everything done I'd like :/
 708 2014-01-07 04:31:20 <lechuga__> k ill work on it
 709 2014-01-07 04:31:40 <lechuga__> assuming i should work on bfgminer/liblkmaker first
 710 2014-01-07 04:31:43 <Luke-Jr> libblkmaker was designed for this from the start, so should be easy to implement it in
 711 2014-01-07 04:31:47 <lechuga__> k
 712 2014-01-07 04:31:59 <Luke-Jr> the concept behind it is that you can merge templates together
 713 2014-01-07 04:32:22 <lechuga__> ah it already supports that
 714 2014-01-07 04:32:29 <Luke-Jr> not really
 715 2014-01-07 04:32:32 <lechuga__> o
 716 2014-01-07 04:32:37 <Luke-Jr> the interfaces are just designed to support it in the future
 717 2014-01-07 04:32:56 <XX01XX> The block validation algorithm will reject blocks older than the median time of the previous 11 blocks (i.e more than ~1 hour in the past) or more than 2 hours in the future.   Blocks which build on a sidechain will pass this validation and be saved, however if/when the sidechain grows longer than the mainchain, these timestamp checks are repeated.   Am I correct in interpreting that to
 718 2014-01-07 04:32:56 <XX01XX> mean that if the fork block is >>1hour old the sidechain blocks will fail the "older than the median time of the previous 11 blocks" check and thus orphan the sidechain?
 719 2014-01-07 04:32:57 <lechuga__> well ill tinker with it and post diffs
 720 2014-01-07 04:33:03 <lechuga__> whats the accepted way to post diffs
 721 2014-01-07 04:33:15 <lechuga__> preferred even
 722 2014-01-07 04:33:28 <Luke-Jr> lechuga__: Gitorious merge requests would be ideal (and maybe PM/email me the link, since Gitorious doesn't seem to consistently email me..)
 723 2014-01-07 04:33:34 <lechuga__> k
 724 2014-01-07 04:34:17 <Luke-Jr> thanks
 725 2014-01-07 04:34:20 <lechuga__> np
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 729 2014-01-07 04:40:08 <XX01XX> Anyone?
 730 2014-01-07 04:40:09 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 740 2014-01-07 05:00:25 <XX01XX> Hmmm.
 741 2014-01-07 05:02:42 davvblack has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 742 2014-01-07 05:04:25 davvblack has joined
 743 2014-01-07 05:04:54 <weex> XX01XX: doesn't sound correct to me
 744 2014-01-07 05:05:16 sensorii has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 745 2014-01-07 05:05:16 guruvan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 746 2014-01-07 05:05:25 <weex> i can't imagine that the time since the "fork block" would trigger anything special to happen since each block is evaluated based on the 11 before it in its chain
 747 2014-01-07 05:05:53 guruvan has joined
 748 2014-01-07 05:06:23 sensorii has joined
 749 2014-01-07 05:06:47 <XX01XX> It's unclear if the "previous 11 blocks" refers to the chain or the previous 11 blocks that have been announced.
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 751 2014-01-07 05:07:36 <XX01XX> previous 11 blocks that have been announced would make more sense.
 752 2014-01-07 05:07:54 <XX01XX> as they would both be the same if nothing nefarious is going on.
 753 2014-01-07 05:08:33 cadaverr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 754 2014-01-07 05:08:36 <XX01XX> and if someone is trying a 51% attack, it makes it much more complicated to orchestrate
 755 2014-01-07 05:08:52 <gmaxwell> XX01XX: these tests are purely within the context of a selected chain.
 756 2014-01-07 05:09:12 <gmaxwell> You cannot have data from one chain effecting another, because the set of all chains seen by nodes is not consistent.
 757 2014-01-07 05:09:40 <gmaxwell> So if you had such a think I could prepare two small forks, and concurrently announce one to half the network, one to another half of the network, and forever partition them.
 758 2014-01-07 05:10:16 <gmaxwell> XX01XX: it's just the timestamps in the current chain, thats all.
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 760 2014-01-07 05:11:01 <XX01XX> how are you defining "current chain"?
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 765 2014-01-07 05:19:40 <XX01XX> If you interpret it to mean that a block cannot be timestamped older than ~1hr before the block before it in the chain, a 51% attack could fork off a sidechain at any arbitrary block, mine it privately until the sidechain was longer, and then begin releasing the blocks.   If you interpret it to mean that the block cannot be ~1hr older than the newest block, then such an attack would fail
 766 2014-01-07 05:19:40 <XX01XX> outright because the timestamps of the first blocks in the sidechain would fail validation.
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 771 2014-01-07 05:20:58 <XX01XX> Unless the attacker could accurately predict when the sidechain would surpass the mainchain and falsify their timestamps to fall into that ~3 hour validation window.
 772 2014-01-07 05:21:00 <XX01XX> But even then you'd have to broadcast the entire attack/sidechain within that window or else the attack fails.
 773 2014-01-07 05:21:48 <XX01XX> And if the chain is long enough to contain multiple difficulty adjustments, the falsified timestamps would be much shorter than the 1 minute target, resulting in large increases in the cost of the attack.
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 775 2014-01-07 05:22:30 <XX01XX> I may be wrong, of course, it just seems really stupid to do it the other way.
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 909 2014-01-07 06:41:38 <Doge_Funnie> hi
 910 2014-01-07 06:41:53 <justanotheruser> hi Do
 911 2014-01-07 06:41:55 <justanotheruser> Doge_Funnie:
 912 2014-01-07 06:42:07 <Doge_Funnie> I need a dev for a few hours
 913 2014-01-07 06:42:19 <justanotheruser> for what
 914 2014-01-07 06:42:40 <Doge_Funnie> cloning coinyewest coin and releasing before them
 915 2014-01-07 06:43:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell:
 916 2014-01-07 06:43:09 <Doge_Funnie> i have the best domain
 917 2014-01-07 06:43:10 <justanotheruser> Doge_Funnie: just change the magic and logo of whatever they're cloning
 918 2014-01-07 06:43:20 <Doge_Funnie> I'm not a dev
 919 2014-01-07 06:43:22 <Doge_Funnie> I want to pay http://coingen.bluematt.me/#basic
 920 2014-01-07 06:43:30 <Doge_Funnie> but I don't know where to get from there
 921 2014-01-07 06:43:36 <Doge_Funnie> the genesis block, nodes, etc
 922 2014-01-07 06:43:37 <gmaxwell> Doge_Funnie: wrong channel.
 923 2014-01-07 06:43:45 <Doge_Funnie> :\
 924 2014-01-07 06:44:29 <Doge_Funnie> pay to help I guess. coinye coin is being released in like 20hours i just found out. Not much time
 925 2014-01-07 06:44:51 <wyager> What do you hope to accomplish?
 926 2014-01-07 06:44:52 <Doge_Funnie> they're premining and have 666, 33, 11 illuminati shit all over the coin fuck that
 927 2014-01-07 06:45:21 <Doge_Funnie> I need a working litecoin clone working asap
 928 2014-01-07 06:45:36 <justanotheruser> Doge_Funnie: so you can pump and dump before them?
 929 2014-01-07 06:45:47 <Doge_Funnie> nah
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 931 2014-01-07 06:47:13 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell is a patient man. XD
 932 2014-01-07 06:47:28 <gmaxwell> Doge_Funnie: really, not here.
 933 2014-01-07 06:47:43 <Doge_Funnie> it says dev?
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 935 2014-01-07 06:47:49 <justanotheruser> Doge_Funnie: it also says bitcoin
 936 2014-01-07 06:47:53 <gmaxwell> _Bitcoin_ development.
 937 2014-01-07 06:48:07 <wyager> It's also not rent-a-dev, it's dev discussion
 938 2014-01-07 06:48:15 <Doge_Funnie> kthanksbye
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 990 2014-01-07 07:56:10 <robonerd> dev to dev here: any *badass* web app devs interested in joining a team for a bitcoin start up? small scale, quick launch, already has some good support
 991 2014-01-07 07:56:28 <robonerd> python/ruby/whatever
 992 2014-01-07 07:56:30 erska_ is now known as erska
 993 2014-01-07 07:56:30 <robonerd> ideally not php
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 997 2014-01-07 07:59:12 <robonerd> worry wrong chan
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1047 2014-01-07 09:28:31 <cr3pe> hi
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1075 2014-01-07 10:11:41 <abrkn> anyone have a bip32 implementation in js?
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1077 2014-01-07 10:12:36 <brisque> abrkn: there's one that brainwallet.org uses- though that's electrum which isn't a complete bip32 implementation (though I'm not sure in what way)
1078 2014-01-07 10:13:11 <abrkn> ok, i'll have a look
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1104 2014-01-07 10:39:41 <hydromet> TD?
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1117 2014-01-07 10:54:11 <abrkn> anyone used this? https://github.com/justcoin/bitcoinjs-lib/blob/master/src/bip32.js#L68
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1122 2014-01-07 11:01:06 <BlueMatt> robonerd: you should be banned for that......
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1128 2014-01-07 11:13:19 <sipa> XX01XX: a block's timestamp must be after the median of its 11 direct ancestor blocks'
1129 2014-01-07 11:13:34 <sipa> XX01XX: so its validity is only defined by the chain it is part of
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1141 2014-01-07 11:39:13 <Alina-malina> someone please list all possible bitcoin  clients please?
1142 2014-01-07 11:39:44 <brisque> all possible? for what purpose?
1143 2014-01-07 11:40:07 <Alina-malina> brisque, i want to see how many are there already to choose which one to use
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1145 2014-01-07 11:40:54 <brisque> this is OT for #bitcoin-dev, but bitcoin.org has a nice set of comparisons.
1146 2014-01-07 11:41:03 <brisque> http://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet
1147 2014-01-07 11:41:33 <Alina-malina> hmmmm ok thanks, but i cant see the electrum there
1148 2014-01-07 11:41:41 <brisque> bottom left.
1149 2014-01-07 11:41:57 <Alina-malina> oh ok thanks alot!
1150 2014-01-07 11:42:26 <Alina-malina> so 4 major clients for windows
1151 2014-01-07 11:43:26 <brisque> we should probably continue this in #bitcoin. this is off topic.
1152 2014-01-07 11:43:32 <Alina-malina> ok
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1227 2014-01-07 14:04:08 <Azra-el> nobody up? :)
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1296 2014-01-07 15:59:46 <saizai> maaku: ping re http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/20000/can-bitcoin-qt-be-configured-to-trim-the-blockchain
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1298 2014-01-07 16:01:39 <sipa> saizai: ?
1299 2014-01-07 16:02:17 <sipa> saizai: yes, deleting old data when it is processed is possible in theory
1300 2014-01-07 16:02:22 <sipa> no it is not implemented
1301 2014-01-07 16:02:46 <saizai> sad
1302 2014-01-07 16:03:01 <sipa> the problem is not implementing it, it's changing the protocol so that clients can still find the data they need
1303 2014-01-07 16:03:14 <sipa> as you may connect to someone who has pruned old blocks that you need
1304 2014-01-07 16:03:35 <sipa> so we need protocol extensions to announce which blocks you still have etc
1305 2014-01-07 16:03:39 <saizai> ah
1306 2014-01-07 16:03:43 <saizai> :-/
1307 2014-01-07 16:03:56 <saizai> sounds like I can't run a secure client on my laptop now then
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1309 2014-01-07 16:04:50 <wallet42> saizai: multibit is SVP and quite secure
1310 2014-01-07 16:04:54 <brisque> saizai: look into Bitcoin Armory
1311 2014-01-07 16:05:12 <sipa> armory needs bitcoind in the background
1312 2014-01-07 16:05:28 <wallet42> or you run a full bitcoind on a server and then use bitcoin-rcp to connect to it (with TSL enabled)
1313 2014-01-07 16:05:38 <saizai> brisque: armory depends on bitcoin-qt
1314 2014-01-07 16:05:39 <saizai> afaict
1315 2014-01-07 16:05:39 <saizai> wallet42: SVP=?
1316 2014-01-07 16:05:40 <sipa> bitcoin-rpc
1317 2014-01-07 16:05:43 <sipa> with tls
1318 2014-01-07 16:05:54 <wallet42> lol
1319 2014-01-07 16:05:55 <sipa> are you intentionally mistyping all tla's? :p
1320 2014-01-07 16:06:04 <brisque> Armory can be run in a split mode where an offline client doesn't need a copy of bitcoind.
1321 2014-01-07 16:06:12 <sipa> multibit is spv
1322 2014-01-07 16:06:25 <wallet42> simple payment verification
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1324 2014-01-07 16:07:37 <sipa> simplified
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1326 2014-01-07 16:08:42 <saizai> ah
1327 2014-01-07 16:09:09 <saizai> brisque: but then I still need to point it to a real one somewhere that has the full version?
1328 2014-01-07 16:09:14 <TD> yeah. i would not describe SPV as "simple"
1329 2014-01-07 16:09:16 <saizai> I guess I could do that on a server and ssh-fs it
1330 2014-01-07 16:09:29 <TD> saizai: it can use the p2p network
1331 2014-01-07 16:09:39 <TD> saizai: what level of security do you need/want
1332 2014-01-07 16:09:44 <sipa> saizai: you can connect spv clients directly to a full node you trust
1333 2014-01-07 16:09:58 <saizai> I prefer high sec, I just don't have high disk space available on my laptop
1334 2014-01-07 16:10:32 <TD> for SPV, you are trusting the hashpower majority, in effect.
1335 2014-01-07 16:10:35 <TD> not any particular computer
1336 2014-01-07 16:10:38 <TD> (once a tx is confirmeD)
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1338 2014-01-07 16:10:51 <saizai> I could in theory run a full node on a server I have
1339 2014-01-07 16:10:51 <saizai> (not sure if it has the space currently)
1340 2014-01-07 16:11:02 <TD> for unconfirmed transactions, you are picking random P2P nodes and assuming they are not all collaborating against you. this is normally OK, unless an attacker controls your internet connection
1341 2014-01-07 16:11:25 <TD> so if that's good enough, and mostly it is unless you're likely to be a target of double spending attacks (like a merchant), then SPV is fine
1342 2014-01-07 16:11:44 <saizai> TD: *nod*. But AFAICT armory doesn't work with that?
1343 2014-01-07 16:11:51 <saizai> unless I'm misunderstanding its split mode
1344 2014-01-07 16:11:56 <TD> no, multibit and hive do
1345 2014-01-07 16:12:00 <TD> and the android wallet
1346 2014-01-07 16:12:10 * saizai nods
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1348 2014-01-07 16:13:24 <brisque> saizai: the idea is that an unsafe computer runs a copy of armory that has the blockchain and can forge transactions but doesn't have the keys to sign them. a second copy of armory on another computer can sign them, and the transactions are ferried between the two by some form of storage.
1349 2014-01-07 16:13:45 <brisque> saizai: the end result is that the keys never touch a networked computer, and are objectively safer for that fact.
1350 2014-01-07 16:13:56 <saizai> interesting
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1352 2014-01-07 16:14:16 <saizai> though still requires me to have a full-chain version somewhere
1353 2014-01-07 16:14:18 <brisque> Electrum has the same functionality I believe.
1354 2014-01-07 16:15:46 <jcorgan> it does
1355 2014-01-07 16:16:50 <jcorgan> with the advantage that the "online" running wallet is SPV and doesn't use much in the way of resources
1356 2014-01-07 16:17:38 <sipa> electrum provides similar security to SPV, but does not actually connect to the p2p network
1357 2014-01-07 16:17:52 <sipa> but to a specialized server that provides extra indexing
1358 2014-01-07 16:19:17 <saizai> does electrum have similar functionality to armory?
1359 2014-01-07 16:20:03 <jcorgan> saizai: Armory has many sophisticated features that Electrum lacks
1360 2014-01-07 16:21:00 * saizai nods
1361 2014-01-07 16:21:34 <TD> i guess over time all wallets will end up with the same base set of features
1362 2014-01-07 16:21:45 <TD> the differences today reflect differing priorities rather than fundamental disagreements
1363 2014-01-07 16:22:21 <saizai> right
1364 2014-01-07 16:22:23 <wallet42> why is it that spv clients get informed about 0 confirmation but cant use them as new inputs unless mined?
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1368 2014-01-07 16:22:37 <TD> they can do. it's just you won't be allowed by default
1369 2014-01-07 16:22:49 <CodeShark> wallet42: there's absolutely no reason why you can't use them as inputs in principle
1370 2014-01-07 16:22:51 <TD> if a wallet author wanted to let you spend unconfirmed coins, that's not a hard change to make (one line of extra code)
1371 2014-01-07 16:23:06 <wallet42> oh okay nice
1372 2014-01-07 16:23:12 <sipa> the reference client lets you spend 0-conf inputs if they are from yourself
1373 2014-01-07 16:23:16 <TD> for instance, you can spend change of your own transactions
1374 2014-01-07 16:23:17 <sipa> that's just a policy
1375 2014-01-07 16:23:40 <CodeShark> the reference client has difficulty recovering from double-spend situations - so the policy helps prevent "stuck" wallets
1376 2014-01-07 16:23:47 <TD> yeah. the reason for the policy is that if someone took control of your internet connection (i.e. you use their wifi) then they could connect you to a fake network
1377 2014-01-07 16:24:07 <TD> and feed you bogus transactions that aren't really valid. they'd look the same, you wouldn't be able to detect that. so we put a warning on the screen and don't let you spend them
1378 2014-01-07 16:24:17 <TD> (this is for SPV wallets)
1379 2014-01-07 16:24:21 <saizai> … a good reason to run it over a tunnel and/or tor or the like
1380 2014-01-07 16:24:40 <TD> in future we might relax this policy for things like when you "know" you aren't gonna get scammed, like if it was a trusted friend who sent you the money
1381 2014-01-07 16:24:47 <TD> so make it a button rather than a hard stop
1382 2014-01-07 16:25:01 <TD> saizai: that just moves the MITM point to the Tor exit node instead of your wifi
1383 2014-01-07 16:25:17 <sipa> maybe when requesting coins, have a checkbox "mark coins received here as trusted"
1384 2014-01-07 16:25:21 <TD> saizai: my preferred solution is to start using TLS on p2p connections
1385 2014-01-07 16:25:26 <sipa> bah
1386 2014-01-07 16:25:36 <sipa> TLS is horror to get right
1387 2014-01-07 16:25:38 <TD> sipa: yeah. that sounds reasonable ...
1388 2014-01-07 16:25:50 <saizai> TD: fair, though you could do Tor -> trusted server in theory
1389 2014-01-07 16:25:50 <saizai> or just plain tunnel to that server
1390 2014-01-07 16:25:51 <TD> well i'm not saying actually implement it ourselves :) but openssl is already a dependency
1391 2014-01-07 16:25:58 <TD> saizai: yes indeed you could.
1392 2014-01-07 16:26:03 <sipa> i'd like to get rid of openssl as dependency :)
1393 2014-01-07 16:26:05 <petertodd> sipa: TLS the encryption/auth technology or the CA infrastructure around it
1394 2014-01-07 16:26:06 <TD> ah
1395 2014-01-07 16:26:09 <petertodd> sipa: ?
1396 2014-01-07 16:26:29 <CodeShark> we need a protocol that affords short proofs that the coins trace back to a legitimate coinbase :)
1397 2014-01-07 16:26:31 <jcorgan> sipa: is there an implementation plan for libsecp256k1?
1398 2014-01-07 16:26:48 <sipa> jcorgan: it's implemented...
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1400 2014-01-07 16:27:04 <petertodd> CodeShark: we have that already, what we don't have is short proofs that a txout hasn't been spent
1401 2014-01-07 16:27:20 <sipa> petertodd, TD: mostly as a "shrink bitcoin core functionality and modularize optional parts away", i like a very limit set of dependencies
1402 2014-01-07 16:27:22 <petertodd> CodeShark: (well, semi-short... you might need a whole tx annoyingly)
1403 2014-01-07 16:27:36 <TD> sipa: well, TLS with TOFU could help for a bunch of things .... so i'd not be too quick to dump it :)
1404 2014-01-07 16:27:41 <jcorgan> integrated into the reference client?
1405 2014-01-07 16:27:48 <wallet42> TLS + ECDHE_ECDSA + AES256 on a namecoin based p2p CA infrastructure would be okay?
1406 2014-01-07 16:27:50 <sipa> jcorgan: i have a branch that does that, yes
1407 2014-01-07 16:27:50 <petertodd> sipa: what else can we use to encrypt/auth connections?
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1409 2014-01-07 16:28:06 <TD> wallet42: you wouldn't have any CA infrastructure. it doesn't make sense in a P2P network like bitcoin. you'd just use TOFU
1410 2014-01-07 16:28:11 <TD> wallet42: (trust on first use)
1411 2014-01-07 16:28:12 <wallet42> self-ca
1412 2014-01-07 16:28:29 <sipa> petertodd: authentication isn't hard... have secp256k1 host keys, en sign protocol messages using it
1413 2014-01-07 16:28:36 <TD> wallet42: yes. the idea is that you can learn about nodes keys either by just connecting to them, or better, from hearing it from other nodes in the same way IPs propagate today.
1414 2014-01-07 16:28:52 Neozonz has joined
1415 2014-01-07 16:29:01 <jcorgan> sipa: i guess my question is--is there a concrete plan for merging that branch?
1416 2014-01-07 16:29:02 <CodeShark> petertodd: I suppose you could deal with unconfirmed tx verification (at least checking the inputs connect) if you fed the SPV client the entire set of unconfirmed dependencies
1417 2014-01-07 16:29:08 <TD> sipa: allows replay amongst other things. we do NOT want to reinvent TLS. much much better to still depend on openssl
1418 2014-01-07 16:29:08 <petertodd> sipa: right, what about the encryption? wallet has a dep on it already
1419 2014-01-07 16:29:14 <wallet42> whats tofu?
1420 2014-01-07 16:29:19 <wallet42> besides food
1421 2014-01-07 16:29:20 <TD> wallet42: trust on first use.
1422 2014-01-07 16:29:21 <sipa> petertodd: i consider the wallet optional
1423 2014-01-07 16:29:28 <wallet42> k
1424 2014-01-07 16:29:41 webuser3232 has joined
1425 2014-01-07 16:29:42 <TD> wallet42: i.e. you assume that you start out with some keys of "real" nodes that aren't collaborating. then you connect to them with those keys and ask "give me more nodes you know about and their keys", etc
1426 2014-01-07 16:30:06 <TD> wallet42: nothing strongly verifies that the nodes aren't all collaborating, but if you initialise from a wallet developer specified known good set of nodes, it should be pretty good
1427 2014-01-07 16:30:12 <petertodd> sipa: hmm, I'm still inclined to just go with existing TLS libraries frankly, esp. given they exist for so many other languages
1428 2014-01-07 16:30:13 <TD> as good as you can realistically get in such an environment anyway
1429 2014-01-07 16:30:33 <TD> sipa: we want to encrypt bloom filter requests and things, imho.
1430 2014-01-07 16:30:44 <TD> sipa: so a node without a wallet would still require openssl in that case, to serve other clients ....
1431 2014-01-07 16:30:49 <CodeShark> all p2p traffic should be encrypted
1432 2014-01-07 16:30:53 <petertodd> CodeShark: +1
1433 2014-01-07 16:30:57 <jcorgan> using TLS or not wouldn't affect any consensus related code, correct?
1434 2014-01-07 16:30:58 <TD> sipa:  i really don't see the big deal. openssl is ugly but useful.
1435 2014-01-07 16:31:02 <TD> jcorgan: correct
1436 2014-01-07 16:31:07 <sipa> yeah, no doubt about that
1437 2014-01-07 16:31:08 <petertodd> jcorgan: not at all
1438 2014-01-07 16:31:11 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 266 seconds)
1439 2014-01-07 16:31:13 <TD> jcorgan: would be a strictly optional rolling upgrade
1440 2014-01-07 16:31:26 <brisque> encryption for p2pool traffic only helps you in a limited sense. eavesdropping not malicious modification.
1441 2014-01-07 16:31:31 <brisque> er, p2p
1442 2014-01-07 16:31:34 <brisque> not p2pool.
1443 2014-01-07 16:31:44 <sipa> jcorgan: 1) have libsecp256k1 autotoolsified  2) have an experiment build mode that disables wallet and mining, but enables secp256k1
1444 2014-01-07 16:31:54 <TD> well, you can raise the bar for malicious modification if the wallet comes with some keys/ips of long term known good seed nodes.
1445 2014-01-07 16:32:01 <sipa> webuser3232: no, gavin did not leave the project?
1446 2014-01-07 16:32:03 <TD> but yes ultimately nothing stops the NSA running a big pile of nodes
1447 2014-01-07 16:32:05 <sipa> webuser3232: he's on vacation though
1448 2014-01-07 16:32:34 patcon has joined
1449 2014-01-07 16:33:56 <CodeShark> openssl isn't too bad if you wrap it
1450 2014-01-07 16:34:07 <CodeShark> it's pretty ugly to use directly in your code, though
1451 2014-01-07 16:34:15 <petertodd> CodeShark: e.g. http://docs.python.org/3/library/ssl.html
1452 2014-01-07 16:35:07 <TD> since the new network stack landed in bitcoinj we can support SSL and SOCKS now
1453 2014-01-07 16:35:28 <TD> so supporting it in SPV wallets would be quite easy. the "hard" part is managing the handover and backwards compatibility
1454 2014-01-07 16:35:35 <TD> (and seeding from a secure source, i.e. not DNS)
1455 2014-01-07 16:36:17 <CodeShark> or http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_55_0/doc/html/boost_asio/reference/ssl__stream.html
1456 2014-01-07 16:37:00 <TD> openssl has an interesting quirk/leak
1457 2014-01-07 16:37:03 melik has joined
1458 2014-01-07 16:37:11 <TD> calling SSL_write() formats a separate SSL record for each call
1459 2014-01-07 16:37:29 <TD> this means you can get an idea of the size of the original calls to write from watching packets flow by, with some cipher modes and things
1460 2014-01-07 16:37:46 <CodeShark> wrapping boost::asio into custom classes is a good way to provide a fast, portable high-level interface to a C++ program for all network i/o
1461 2014-01-07 16:37:48 <TD> e.g. if you code is like SSL_write(header), SSL_write(foo), SSL_write(bar) then you can see the sizes of the header, foo and bar
1462 2014-01-07 16:37:55 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
1463 2014-01-07 16:38:03 bderber1 has quit ()
1464 2014-01-07 16:39:16 <CodeShark> and the asio wrappers can be applied to streams other than just network
1465 2014-01-07 16:39:27 <wallet42> sipa: are you still elaborating Coin25519? in times of compromised PRNGs i would really love me some ec signing algorithm that does not require an external source of entropy
1466 2014-01-07 16:39:50 <brisque> wallet42: you shouldn't need an RNG to sign a transaction
1467 2014-01-07 16:39:52 <sipa> wallet42: no
1468 2014-01-07 16:40:06 <gmaxwell> "elaborating Coin25519"?
1469 2014-01-07 16:40:06 <sipa> wallet42: but ecdsa doesn't require external entropy either during signing
1470 2014-01-07 16:40:22 <sipa> i once created a github repo with that name, but never worked on it really
1471 2014-01-07 16:40:30 <gmaxwell> oh! right.
1472 2014-01-07 16:40:49 <sipa> gmaxwell: what's your opinion about using SSL for the p2p protocol?
1473 2014-01-07 16:41:21 <wumpus> SSL for the P2P protocol, why not
1474 2014-01-07 16:41:35 <sipa> imho, SSL is huge beast that certainly embodies all correct ways of dealing with the cryptography involved, but hard to get right in practice
1475 2014-01-07 16:41:49 <wumpus> should be optional obviously, but to offer it as an option, why not
1476 2014-01-07 16:41:54 <wallet42> it protects at least against some dpi
1477 2014-01-07 16:42:04 <sipa> dpi?
1478 2014-01-07 16:42:10 <brisque> Deep Packet Inspection
1479 2014-01-07 16:42:14 <gmaxwell> You know what it is: yuck.  A huge, poorly understood, poor reputation, gigantic attack surface, full of complicated attacks which implementations must carefully work around (and which openssl out of the box does not defend you against).  I also buy the argument that you don't want to reinvent it, but I'm generally not impressed.
1480 2014-01-07 16:42:16 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1481 2014-01-07 16:42:18 <wallet42> Deep Packet Inspection
1482 2014-01-07 16:42:22 <brisque> the port makes it fairly clear what is bitcoin traffic anyway
1483 2014-01-07 16:42:34 agnostic98 has joined
1484 2014-01-07 16:42:48 <brisque> I've never seen a node off the default port, come to think of it
1485 2014-01-07 16:42:51 <sipa> we're already using cryptographic primitives ourselves - i prefer reusing them
1486 2014-01-07 16:42:59 <petertodd> brisque: that's not the interesting thing: following where transactions flow is
1487 2014-01-07 16:43:27 <brisque> petertodd: even with encryption it's still fairly obvious when a peer makes a transaction it hasn't relayed
1488 2014-01-07 16:43:41 t7 has joined
1489 2014-01-07 16:43:55 <wallet42> can so. comment on http://safecurves.cr.yp.to/ claiming secp256k1 not being a "safe curve" ?
1490 2014-01-07 16:43:57 <brisque> if someone is that interested, they'll just MITM the connection.
1491 2014-01-07 16:44:02 <sipa> wallet42: i wonder why indeed
1492 2014-01-07 16:44:55 <petertodd> brisque: MITM isn't something TLA's have been doing much
1493 2014-01-07 16:44:59 <gmaxwell> wallet42: because it's DJB's 'sales' page, I'm really disappointed.
1494 2014-01-07 16:45:13 <petertodd> brisque: and we can get some very good MITM protections with things like miners advertising their node addresses
1495 2014-01-07 16:45:14 <sipa> at least some argumentation would be interesting
1496 2014-01-07 16:45:33 <jcorgan> wallet42: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=380482.msg4083612#msg4083612
1497 2014-01-07 16:45:39 <wallet42> i asked Tanja at 30C3 and they said sth. about the curve having a shortcut
1498 2014-01-07 16:45:40 <gmaxwell> wallet42: see this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=380482.0
1499 2014-01-07 16:45:56 <wallet42> but this shortcut was intended
1500 2014-01-07 16:46:02 <wallet42> and public since the beginning
1501 2014-01-07 16:46:13 <brisque> petertodd: I don't argue that it's not helpful, but it's not really protection against finding the source of a transaction. watch for an unsolicited block going out and compare it with recently seen transactions.
1502 2014-01-07 16:46:15 <wallet42> thx gmaxwell
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1504 2014-01-07 16:47:30 <petertodd> brisque: the attacker is getting far less information from the encrypted connection, sure, in theory you can do timing analysis, but that's really hard to do on a big scale
1505 2014-01-07 16:47:53 <petertodd> brisque: and we can always make that better later with dummy traffic
1506 2014-01-07 16:47:54 <CodeShark> if you're really paranoid you can send dummy data
1507 2014-01-07 16:47:56 <CodeShark> lol
1508 2014-01-07 16:48:20 <brisque> does bitcoin really need chaffing? my bandwidth usage is monstrous enough as it is.
1509 2014-01-07 16:48:33 <sipa> "chaffing" ?
1510 2014-01-07 16:48:42 <petertodd> brisque: well if it is, then it doesn't and there's probably no timing analysis worry anyway :)
1511 2014-01-07 16:48:49 <brisque> sipa: er, adding useless junk to hide timing attacks.
1512 2014-01-07 16:49:08 <brisque> sipa: hiding the wheat amongst the chaff, as it where.
1513 2014-01-07 16:49:12 <sipa> ok
1514 2014-01-07 16:49:12 <gmaxwell> there is no need to send dummy data, you can just make transmissions happen on a timer, and keep increasing the time until there is always data.
1515 2014-01-07 16:49:17 <gmaxwell> e.g. just add latency.
1516 2014-01-07 16:49:30 <petertodd> gmaxwell: leaks tx length still
1517 2014-01-07 16:49:30 <CodeShark> or we could use steganography - make all bitcoin traffic appear to be nothing more than a bunch of people sharing kitten photos :p
1518 2014-01-07 16:49:46 <gmaxwell> petertodd: no, because you could be sending some other transaction you recieved.
1519 2014-01-07 16:50:15 <jcorgan> has anyone done a histogram on tx sizes in the wild
1520 2014-01-07 16:50:18 <gmaxwell> petertodd: in particular, you could be replacing a txn you recived from someone else with your own in your queue.
1521 2014-01-07 16:50:20 <petertodd> anyway, we're best off if we encrypt the link, so if not SSL, then what are we going to use?
1522 2014-01-07 16:50:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm thinking SPV actually
1523 2014-01-07 16:50:45 <gmaxwell> oh, well no suggestions there.
1524 2014-01-07 16:51:18 <brisque> CodeShark: like the binary encoding we use now isn't intensive enough
1525 2014-01-07 16:52:49 <TD> it doesn't have to be openssl
1526 2014-01-07 16:52:52 <TD> there are other libraries, like polarssl
1527 2014-01-07 16:52:59 <TD> but i have no idea how well they keep up with TLS as it evolves
1528 2014-01-07 16:53:08 <TD> NSS as well
1529 2014-01-07 16:53:24 <CodeShark> if we're going to use another library, why not go with boost?
1530 2014-01-07 16:53:35 <gmaxwell> There is a lot more to getting SSL right than using openssl or nss (I've not used polarssl)
1531 2014-01-07 16:53:56 <TD> yes, sure. especially in "odd" configurations as ours would be
1532 2014-01-07 16:53:58 <petertodd> TD: I mean is there something other than SSL that we would want to do
1533 2014-01-07 16:54:02 <CodeShark> boost depends on OpenSSL, but it at least wraps it
1534 2014-01-07 16:54:07 <TD> oh. probably not.
1535 2014-01-07 16:54:20 <petertodd> TD: that's what I thought...
1536 2014-01-07 16:54:25 <TD> SSL gets analyzed and attacked way more than anything else
1537 2014-01-07 16:54:31 <TD> and there are people being paid to upgrade it full time
1538 2014-01-07 16:54:33 zcopley has joined
1539 2014-01-07 16:54:41 <gmaxwell> I don't believe we can use SSL safely.
1540 2014-01-07 16:54:45 <TD> these two things are not matched by most crypto systems out there ...
1541 2014-01-07 16:55:14 <petertodd> gmaxwell: define "safely"
1542 2014-01-07 16:55:37 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: what are your main concerns?
1543 2014-01-07 16:55:40 <gmaxwell> including without creating remote code vulnerabilities.
1544 2014-01-07 16:56:18 damethos has joined
1545 2014-01-07 16:56:25 <petertodd> gmaxwell: as in you don't trust openssl for that - do you trust any librries for that?
1546 2014-01-07 16:56:39 <gmaxwell> I don't think y'all have a good idea of the attack surface area involved in a SSL implementation. It's absolutely enormous, compariable to or even larger than all of bitcoin.
1547 2014-01-07 16:57:08 <petertodd> gmaxwell: then what do you suggest?
1548 2014-01-07 16:57:20 <gmaxwell> including tens of thousands of lines of code for functionality which is irrelevant to us (or, even— to anyone, its just there to meet the spec or backwards compat)
1549 2014-01-07 16:57:45 damethos has quit (Client Quit)
1550 2014-01-07 16:58:04 <gmaxwell> What I'd suggested before: add a ECDH handshake to the version messages replace the checksum (sha256) in our packets with hmac. (Well, I hadn't been thinking of encryption, only auth).
1551 2014-01-07 16:58:06 <CodeShark> the way I see it we have two choices: we go with something that already exists and has been tried and tested widely…or we invent something of our own
1552 2014-01-07 16:58:10 freggles has joined
1553 2014-01-07 16:58:25 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: there is very little that needs to be 'invented' for our own use.
1554 2014-01-07 16:58:27 <petertodd> gmaxwell: encryption is a must too, what do we do for that?
1555 2014-01-07 16:59:07 <CodeShark> SSL implementations might have a large attack surface…but on the flipside, vulnerabilities are often well-known and publicised
1556 2014-01-07 16:59:08 <sipa> AES-CTR, with the negotiated ECDH key?
1557 2014-01-07 16:59:25 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I hadn't previously considered it. I don't have time to at the moment. The obvious thing is 'slap a stream cipher on top'.
1558 2014-01-07 16:59:37 <petertodd> sipa, gmaxwell: well, sounds like a solution
1559 2014-01-07 16:59:54 <sipa> isn't there some patent on ECDH with publci keys?
1560 2014-01-07 16:59:56 <petertodd> handy that we already have the checksums for every packet
1561 2014-01-07 17:00:08 <petertodd> sipa: ?
1562 2014-01-07 17:00:25 <gmaxwell> At least such a solution can add ~zero new attack surface except on the new functionality.
1563 2014-01-07 17:00:36 Burrito has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1564 2014-01-07 17:00:41 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1565 2014-01-07 17:00:47 <sipa> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MQV
1566 2014-01-07 17:01:11 <maaku> saizai: sounds like you got your answer :)
1567 2014-01-07 17:01:12 Burrito has joined
1568 2014-01-07 17:01:35 <saizai> maaku: yup. thanks a lot :)
1569 2014-01-07 17:01:42 <maaku> i'd be wary about running over tor unless you specifically need the anonymity
1570 2014-01-07 17:01:48 <gmaxwell> sipa: thats only on MQV, no need to use MQV, can just use signed ephemeral points.
1571 2014-01-07 17:01:53 spinza_ has left ()
1572 2014-01-07 17:01:57 <maaku> it's basically handing your network connection to a node probably controled by the NSA
1573 2014-01-07 17:02:03 * saizai needs to go offline now though
1574 2014-01-07 17:02:05 <gmaxwell> maaku: why? it works great. oh please.
1575 2014-01-07 17:02:08 spinza has joined
1576 2014-01-07 17:02:20 <maaku> gmaxwell: in general, i mean
1577 2014-01-07 17:02:23 <gmaxwell> maaku: tor gives bitcoin end to end encryption (when used for onion hosts)
1578 2014-01-07 17:02:48 <CodeShark> the biggest problem with tor is it's slow
1579 2014-01-07 17:02:52 <brisque> gmaxwell: we can assume that tor draws.. attention in a lot of countries, which is undesirable.
1580 2014-01-07 17:03:01 <brisque> CodeShark: it's fast when you stay in network.
1581 2014-01-07 17:03:08 <petertodd> brisque: yes, so please use it more :)
1582 2014-01-07 17:03:10 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: wtf. it's great for bitcoin. please chill your fud.
1583 2014-01-07 17:03:45 <gmaxwell> (as if even a full second of latency to your bitcoin-qt matters…)
1584 2014-01-07 17:03:53 <wumpus> yes, tor works great for bitcoin, the biggest problem with tor is latency and we don't care about latency (except for mining maybe)
1585 2014-01-07 17:03:59 saizai has quit (Quit: saizai)
1586 2014-01-07 17:04:07 <brisque> petertodd: I'm already uncomfortable enough with my countries inquisitive attitude.
1587 2014-01-07 17:04:08 Grouver has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1588 2014-01-07 17:04:16 <maaku> gmaxwell: I meant specifically in the context of saizai who was considering running SPV with zero conf over tor
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1590 2014-01-07 17:04:49 <petertodd> brisque: standard thing the tor project says is the more people who use it the less it sticks out
1591 2014-01-07 17:04:50 <TD> the big advantage of SSL from my POV is low implementation cost
1592 2014-01-07 17:05:18 <petertodd> maaku: what do you mean by zeroconf?
1593 2014-01-07 17:05:21 <wumpus> and low maintenance cost
1594 2014-01-07 17:05:25 <TD> especially if it can be run on a parallel port (or .... port 443 gulp) the cost inside java is very low. basically you just provide a cert handler and a few other things.
1595 2014-01-07 17:05:37 <sipa> i think implementing SSL P2P correctly is more work than ECDH + AES + HMAC checksums
1596 2014-01-07 17:05:53 <petertodd> TD: looking at it mucking about with the certs is going to be a pain
1597 2014-01-07 17:05:55 <sipa> (including certificate management for peers, ...)
1598 2014-01-07 17:05:56 cysm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1599 2014-01-07 17:06:04 <gmaxwell> TD: thats really not the case at least using OpenSSL or NSS, a whole lot is required from the caller to get the SSL usage correct. More code than a simple ECDH+mac scheme.
1600 2014-01-07 17:06:09 wallet421 has joined
1601 2014-01-07 17:06:25 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, if a cert can be a single pubkey that'll be handy for things like miners advertising nodes in coinbases
1602 2014-01-07 17:06:28 <brisque> petertodd: that's well and good, but it's still sticking my head far above the rest of the crowd. using it for something high bandwidth like Bitcoin paints a massive target on the head of the user.
1603 2014-01-07 17:06:53 <sipa> petertodd: why?
1604 2014-01-07 17:06:55 <petertodd> brisque: well, I don't know what country you're in, but in most you're not risking much
1605 2014-01-07 17:07:04 <maaku> petertodd: reading the backlog, i thought sai was asking about using multibit, building off of 0-confirmation transactions, and running it over tor
1606 2014-01-07 17:07:06 <TD> petertodd: hmm, maybe. the same was said when we were discussing making payment protocol messages self contained. i prototyped it in a weekend, more or less, and that's with openssl's awful documentation
1607 2014-01-07 17:07:14 <TD> so i dunno. maybe i'll play with it at some point
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1609 2014-01-07 17:07:31 <TD> SSL gets us things like ciphersuite agility. for instance, you really want to use AES if the hardware supports it, otherwise ChaCha20
1610 2014-01-07 17:07:35 <petertodd> sipa: to provide a way to connect to nodes with less MITM risk, not zero, but it's a different set of risks
1611 2014-01-07 17:07:42 <maaku> with that exact combination of SPV + 0-conf, I think it makes senst to be paranoid about Tor exit nodes
1612 2014-01-07 17:07:45 <TD> so there are performance considerations too
1613 2014-01-07 17:07:46 <sipa> petertodd: k
1614 2014-01-07 17:08:07 <TD> maaku: one quick win i thought about doing is for the android wallet, to treat transactions as OK if we heard about them over a 3G/4G link.
1615 2014-01-07 17:08:08 <sipa> in any case, adding a 33-byte pubkey to addr messages for examples isn't too hard either
1616 2014-01-07 17:08:10 <petertodd> maaku: oh right, zeroconf, stupid of me... yeah, that's an exception, but then you're best off using tor + others
1617 2014-01-07 17:08:43 <TD> maaku: on the grounds that your mobile carrier isn't going to MITM for petty financial fraud reasons. as long as your nodes are a reasonably good selection of independent machines it's probably safe, there. but it'd be the same as today for wifi
1618 2014-01-07 17:08:52 <sipa> and if we want to integrate that in OpenSSL, you'll restrict yourself to some EC type signing anyway, so ssl doesn't provide much advantages anymore
1619 2014-01-07 17:09:37 <TD> sipa: hardly. ssl handles more than the initial setup. it gives you things like selecting the right ciphersuite given the hardware constraints on either end, and authenticates that so you can't do a downgrade etc. lots of fiddly details.
1620 2014-01-07 17:09:52 <TD> sipa: also - session resumption
1621 2014-01-07 17:09:58 <TD> sipa: good for performance if you can cache the sessions to disk
1622 2014-01-07 17:10:00 <brisque> petertodd: Tor is a tradeoff. at this point I'd much rather expose myself to a few peers than advertise that I'm "doing something shady". I know that Tor isn't used for that for the most part, but that's the image it creates.
1623 2014-01-07 17:10:09 <sipa> TD: agree, but if we want short pubkeys associated with peers, a lot of that flexibility is gone anyway
1624 2014-01-07 17:10:42 <TD> sipa: nope, take the pubkey for the peer from the addr message, check the cert the node gave you to ensure it's a match. then let it proceed as normal. the actual cipher will still be negotiated
1625 2014-01-07 17:11:37 <petertodd> sipa: I'll admit that gmaxwell's argument re: remote vulnerabilities is growing on me too - not often you are talking about a remote vulnerability with software that so directly handles money.
1626 2014-01-07 17:11:45 <TD> sipa: with things like saying "just use AES" then you quickly run into fiddly details like which mode that's in, with some modes being ok and other modes being considered not OK, and some hardware being fast at it and others being slow, etc. i'd rather whack a set of constraints on the cert and then let the rest run in automatic mode, more or less
1627 2014-01-07 17:11:47 nightlingo has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1628 2014-01-07 17:11:55 <sipa> TD: i said AES-CTR :)
1629 2014-01-07 17:12:19 <sipa> and yes, no doubt that (proper) SSL has advantages
1630 2014-01-07 17:12:21 justusranvier has joined
1631 2014-01-07 17:12:21 <petertodd> We don't have the bandwidth to make optimizing for hardware cipher implementations all that worthwhile.
1632 2014-01-07 17:12:24 tesserajk has joined
1633 2014-01-07 17:12:36 <sipa> but i really like the idea of a tiny bitcoin core implementation that has hardly any dependencies
1634 2014-01-07 17:12:42 <TD> https://www.imperialviolet.org/2013/10/07/chacha20.html
1635 2014-01-07 17:12:52 <TD> good overview of the issues
1636 2014-01-07 17:12:53 <sipa> we're already relying much much stronger on direct use of crypto primitives anyway
1637 2014-01-07 17:12:57 <TD> in particular - doing it with constant time implementations, hard
1638 2014-01-07 17:13:04 <maaku> petertodd: hardware support would be good for mobile usage
1639 2014-01-07 17:13:10 ConvivialMatt has quit (Quit: ConvivialMatt)
1640 2014-01-07 17:13:13 <petertodd> lol, "only" 25MB/s
1641 2014-01-07 17:13:15 <maaku> where encryption isn't a bottleneck, but a battery drain
1642 2014-01-07 17:13:37 <brisque> the amount of encrypted p2p data bitcoin uses is fairly minimal
1643 2014-01-07 17:13:45 BlackPrapor has joined
1644 2014-01-07 17:13:50 <sipa> brisque: ??
1645 2014-01-07 17:13:51 <petertodd> maaku: I'd be very surprised if the encryption used more than a fraction of the energy required to run the radio
1646 2014-01-07 17:14:12 bbrian has joined
1647 2014-01-07 17:14:17 <CodeShark> the display and the radio are far bigger power hogs
1648 2014-01-07 17:14:21 <maaku> petertodd: well, every little % counts...
1649 2014-01-07 17:14:24 <brisque> sipa: if you were to implement encryption for the p2p data, a lite client would use very little in comparison with the rest of the phone.
1650 2014-01-07 17:14:33 <sipa> brisque: oh, right!
1651 2014-01-07 17:14:42 <brisque> sipa: sorry, badly worded.
1652 2014-01-07 17:14:45 <petertodd> maaku: so does things like "lets not make a remote root exploit that'll steal money from evreyone online at once"
1653 2014-01-07 17:14:47 <sipa> brisque: sorry, i thought you were saying only a small part of p2p traffic was encrypted
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1655 2014-01-07 17:15:00 <TD> if there's a remote exploit in openssl isn't it pretty much game over for the internet anyway?
1656 2014-01-07 17:15:03 <TD> same for openssh ...
1657 2014-01-07 17:15:23 <TD> though the network parts could be sandboxed from wallet parts
1658 2014-01-07 17:15:27 <brisque> TD: has been in the past with the debian RNG bug, I bet there's still people using the private keys from that
1659 2014-01-07 17:15:31 <petertodd> TD: harder to exploit relaibly against bitcoin users specifically
1660 2014-01-07 17:15:44 <petertodd> TD: and implementers aren't going to do that
1661 2014-01-07 17:15:55 nightlingo has joined
1662 2014-01-07 17:15:55 <TD> i suppose we could add a service bit and then if you're running a node with a big hot wallet, just don't opt in to providing ssl
1663 2014-01-07 17:16:25 <CodeShark> all signing should be ideally occurring on dedicated hardware :)
1664 2014-01-07 17:16:39 <wumpus> TD: it would be good to isolate the wallet from the network code anyway
1665 2014-01-07 17:17:08 <CodeShark> wumpus: right - that's a separate issue
1666 2014-01-07 17:17:33 <wumpus> exploits in the network code are always possible, however scary they would be :/
1667 2014-01-07 17:17:52 <brisque> pretty much end game for bitcoin.
1668 2014-01-07 17:18:03 <TD> well, depends on the implementation and other things. e.g. though java has had a bad run of sandbox vulnerabilities, its dynamic checking is good - you don't hear about the standard C style remote exploits in java apps. so the ssl code is very unlikely to be exploitable, for a java server (unless you do something weird and use an openssl wrapper or whatever)
1669 2014-01-07 17:18:11 <CodeShark> exploits in the network code can give you false verification and take away privacy - but it can't steal bitcoins
1670 2014-01-07 17:18:24 <TD> same for an ssl stack implemented in python or whatever, most likely
1671 2014-01-07 17:18:49 <wumpus> CodeShark: well for the people running a wallet in the same process as the P2P code, it does allow stealing bitcoins
1672 2014-01-07 17:19:06 <petertodd> wumpus: same user account
1673 2014-01-07 17:19:08 <CodeShark> wumpus: that's poor architecture, period :)
1674 2014-01-07 17:19:09 <wumpus> CodeShark: which is, right now, everyone using a bitcoind/bitcoin-qt wallet ...
1675 2014-01-07 17:19:19 <TD> sipa: are you going to the meetup tonight?
1676 2014-01-07 17:19:25 <TD> i didn't go for a while, was planning to go along
1677 2014-01-07 17:19:34 <sipa> TD: people have been asking about you :)
1678 2014-01-07 17:19:45 <petertodd> wumpus: heh, I wonder what % that actually is these days, gotta be low
1679 2014-01-07 17:19:46 <TD> orly?
1680 2014-01-07 17:19:58 <wumpus> petertodd: it's possible to sandbox without changing user accounts
1681 2014-01-07 17:20:12 <sipa> petertodd: well the majority is not on the p2p network at all (webwallets, electrum)
1682 2014-01-07 17:20:24 <wumpus> petertodd: for example chrome does a lot of sandboxing different parts of the application, may be better to ask googlers like TD about it :)
1683 2014-01-07 17:20:27 <CodeShark> wumpus: running a wallet in the same process as p2p code is acceptable for lite clients and small wallets - it's absolutely absurd for managing enterprise accounts
1684 2014-01-07 17:20:35 wallet421 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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1686 2014-01-07 17:20:58 <TD> wumpus: that's hard though. we bought a company that specialized in it :)     <for windows>
1687 2014-01-07 17:21:16 <petertodd> wumpus: true, chroot, change effective uid/guid etc.
1688 2014-01-07 17:21:24 <petertodd> s/guid/gid/
1689 2014-01-07 17:21:25 <wumpus> CodeShark: right, luckily the wallet in bitcoind/-qt is not really enterprise scale ready, so that hopefully doesn't happen :P
1690 2014-01-07 17:21:30 <wumpus> TD: heh
1691 2014-01-07 17:21:34 nightlingo has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1692 2014-01-07 17:21:46 <petertodd> sipa: yup, and electrum already does SSL
1693 2014-01-07 17:21:54 <brisque> wumpus: probably a suboptimal condition, then you have people rolling their own solutions
1694 2014-01-07 17:22:06 nightlingo has joined
1695 2014-01-07 17:22:14 <petertodd> sipa: though electrum probably will add P2P connections too before long as another source of header info
1696 2014-01-07 17:22:25 <sipa> petertodd: i hope the b.i webwallet website does use SSL too
1697 2014-01-07 17:22:25 <wumpus> brisque: I'd like to split the wallet from the bitcoin project entirely
1698 2014-01-07 17:23:08 Burrito has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1699 2014-01-07 17:23:16 <brisque> wumpus: I'm 30 days -disablewallet myself. not sure how people will manage services without it though.
1700 2014-01-07 17:23:37 mitz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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1702 2014-01-07 17:23:51 <wumpus> brisque: there are no other wallets that support RPC-ish interface?
1703 2014-01-07 17:24:00 <brisque> wumpus: nope.
1704 2014-01-07 17:24:04 <CodeShark> there are :)
1705 2014-01-07 17:24:22 <brisque> really, which?
1706 2014-01-07 17:24:29 <CodeShark> unfortunately, I don't think any of the good ones are open source yet
1707 2014-01-07 17:24:37 <wumpus> brisque: in any case, splitting does not mean nuking the code, just that it's a seperate project, so that it can be maintained/forked seperately
1708 2014-01-07 17:25:28 <wumpus> CodeShark: there are closed source wallets?!?
1709 2014-01-07 17:25:37 <CodeShark> yes ;)
1710 2014-01-07 17:25:41 <brisque> wumpus: less development will happen there though. it's sort of completely unsuitable for anything less than personal/hobby. a large wallet completely hoses the RPC server.
1711 2014-01-07 17:25:45 <sipa> s/closed-source/unreleased/ ?
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1713 2014-01-07 17:25:58 <CodeShark> unreleased might be more accurate
1714 2014-01-07 17:26:05 <brisque> sounding better already
1715 2014-01-07 17:26:07 <wumpus> ohh, unreleased, right
1716 2014-01-07 17:26:22 Burrito has joined
1717 2014-01-07 17:26:33 <wumpus> brisque: I'd hope *more* development would happen... it's hardly possible for less development to happen with it than now
1718 2014-01-07 17:26:35 <TD> brisque: well you can always just connect a bitcoinj wallet to a full node with -disablewallet
1719 2014-01-07 17:26:58 <TD> brisque: someone could make a little JSON server that maps the a bitcoind compatible API to the in-process bitcoinj API. it might be a nice / useful project for someone
1720 2014-01-07 17:26:59 denom has joined
1721 2014-01-07 17:27:02 <brisque> wumpus: (the "descendant of Bitcoin" NXT is basically closed source, which is hilarious. the code they've released is atrocious and not in the main client)
1722 2014-01-07 17:27:09 denom has left ()
1723 2014-01-07 17:27:49 <brisque> TD: could do. ideally the wallet side would just be improved enough so that having a few thousand private keys doesn't completely hose it.
1724 2014-01-07 17:27:58 <TD> ah well bitcoinj doesn't scale either :-)
1725 2014-01-07 17:28:04 <sipa> private keys isn't really the problem
1726 2014-01-07 17:28:11 <sipa> many transaction is
1727 2014-01-07 17:28:11 <TD> so if you want scalability as opposed to process separation, then yeah, it won't help
1728 2014-01-07 17:28:14 <wumpus> brisque: no one really dares to touch the wallet code as it is now, and it's too intermingled with the rest of the code to experiment with different implementations, without quickly losing compatibility with the upstream code
1729 2014-01-07 17:28:32 <sipa> and it's equally hard to get changes reviewed because of that reason
1730 2014-01-07 17:28:38 <wumpus> yes
1731 2014-01-07 17:28:51 <brisque> wumpus: ah, I suppose you would have to split it for compatibility and run the new code in parallel?
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1733 2014-01-07 17:29:05 <wumpus> brisque: yes
1734 2014-01-07 17:29:11 <brisque> that would explain why it's not leveldb like the rest of the client.
1735 2014-01-07 17:29:12 <CodeShark> for all of satoshi's brilliant abilities, writing modular code was not one of them :p
1736 2014-01-07 17:29:17 <wumpus> brisque: that's how open source should work :0
1737 2014-01-07 17:29:22 <sipa> CodeShark: writing readable code in general :)
1738 2014-01-07 17:29:50 <sipa> brisque: that's just historical
1739 2014-01-07 17:29:57 <sipa> it used to be all BDB
1740 2014-01-07 17:30:04 <wumpus> brisque: the wallet should ideally use a custom format, going from bdb to leveldb would be a mistake
1741 2014-01-07 17:30:16 <wumpus> yes, bdb is legacy
1742 2014-01-07 17:30:31 cysm has joined
1743 2014-01-07 17:30:31 <sipa> TD: had dinner?
1744 2014-01-07 17:30:32 <brisque> I thought it would have been swapped though, the dependancy for BDB just for the wallet is a bit strange
1745 2014-01-07 17:30:35 <brisque> wumpus: got it, no worth moving when it's going already.
1746 2014-01-07 17:30:46 <TD> sipa: no but i can eat later. had a late meeting with my boss. you?
1747 2014-01-07 17:30:55 <sipa> haven't eaten either
1748 2014-01-07 17:31:00 <wumpus> brisque: writing all kinds of backwards support code and conversion code just for a temporary database switch woul be much, much stranger
1749 2014-01-07 17:31:12 <wumpus> brisque: don't forget that any wallet format that we go with needs to be supported for eternity
1750 2014-01-07 17:31:21 <sipa> TD: i've usually been going to the meetup at 20:00-21:00 or so
1751 2014-01-07 17:31:29 Kart has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
1752 2014-01-07 17:31:34 <wumpus> brisque: not so much for the block index, we can switch that around if a better database comes around
1753 2014-01-07 17:31:37 <sipa> but i can go earlier now (no end-of-quarter deadlines approaching :p)
1754 2014-01-07 17:32:13 <brisque> wumpus: tough ask.
1755 2014-01-07 17:32:16 sassamo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1756 2014-01-07 17:32:26 <TD> sipa: wanna grab food here or out?
1757 2014-01-07 17:32:43 sassamo has joined
1758 2014-01-07 17:32:48 <sipa> TD: prefer out
1759 2014-01-07 17:32:57 <sipa> not sure if hin&weg has much food
1760 2014-01-07 17:33:26 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
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1762 2014-01-07 17:33:51 <TD> sipa: alright. got any favourite restaurants? i'm good with anything at the moment
1763 2014-01-07 17:34:13 <sipa> TD: heidi&tell?
1764 2014-01-07 17:34:31 <maaku> ;;cjs
1765 2014-01-07 17:34:31 Grishnakh has joined
1766 2014-01-07 17:34:31 <gribble> Coinjoin Status: There is no currently open session. Visit https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/ or http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ to start one.
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1771 2014-01-07 17:36:53 <TD> sipa: where's that?
1772 2014-01-07 17:36:57 <TD> never heard of it
1773 2014-01-07 17:37:14 <TD> is it new?
1774 2014-01-07 17:37:24 <TD> hmmmm ... a burger joint :) sold
1775 2014-01-07 17:37:28 <sipa> TD: near Enge, a swiss burger place
1776 2014-01-07 17:37:29 Grishnakh has joined
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1778 2014-01-07 17:37:38 <TD> yeah let's do it. when do you want to leave?
1779 2014-01-07 17:37:43 Grishnakh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1780 2014-01-07 17:37:46 <sipa> now?
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1783 2014-01-07 17:38:41 <TD> hmmm. can i grab 15 minutes? something important just came up
1784 2014-01-07 17:38:45 <sipa> ok
1785 2014-01-07 17:38:47 <TD> like literally 10 seconds ago :)
1786 2014-01-07 17:38:48 <TD> thanks
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1816 2014-01-07 17:49:12 <TD> sipa: meet outside reception?
1817 2014-01-07 17:49:25 <sipa> ok
1818 2014-01-07 17:49:31 <TD> great
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1823 2014-01-07 17:51:10 <runeks> With regards to the bitcoind RPC command getwork, isn't hex character 8 to 8+64 supposed to the the previous block hash?
1824 2014-01-07 17:51:22 <runeks> Of the "data" field.
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1826 2014-01-07 17:51:44 <runeks> I know the first is the version field, and then it should be prevHash
1827 2014-01-07 17:52:16 <runeks> But my bitcoind returns 00000002daf470609cdf984b6f2ab711f414afe1aebe413bac6688ac000000010000000023603609f86dccbfb18e0264591f8f4555f854c636d9b2526b16ee447914b07f52cc3b331903071f00000000000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000
1828 2014-01-07 17:52:26 <runeks> Which makes the prevHash daf470609cdf984b6f2ab711f414afe1aebe413bac6688ac0000000100000000
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1832 2014-01-07 17:52:31  has quit (Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Killed (asimov.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
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1834 2014-01-07 17:52:58 <runeks> Which is not the hash of any blocks according to blockchain.info, and it has a 1 bit in the leading/trailing zero bits.
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1838 2014-01-07 17:54:30 <CodeShark> 02daf470609cdf984b6f2ab711f414afe1aebe413bac6688ac looks like a pay-to-pubkey script
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1848 2014-01-07 17:57:03 <runeks> I'm pretty sure the first 4 bytes is the version field. At least it matches the version field, as far as I can see.
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1855 2014-01-07 18:00:07 <runeks> OK, I get it now. It's not the actual data, it's been preprocessed: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getwork#Protocol
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1912 2014-01-07 18:04:11 <CodeShark> oh right - the silly 32-bit chunk endian thing
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1914 2014-01-07 18:05:47 <CodeShark> were it not for the fact I haven't done much work in mining, I would have been complaining about that a long time ago :p
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1918 2014-01-07 18:06:50 <runeks> I thought I had gotten used to weird endianness in the Bitcoin code, but this is *really* weird :)
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1921 2014-01-07 18:08:06 <maaku> runeks: this is internal state to the sha256 function ....
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1926 2014-01-07 18:09:10 <runeks> Oh. I still don't get why that's necessary, but what do I know.
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1937 2014-01-07 18:11:25 <maaku> In this case honestly I don't know. It's a little weird. Byteswap and padding is not very hard to implement for the miner.
1938 2014-01-07 18:11:41 <maaku> Especially since blocks are always the same length
1939 2014-01-07 18:11:49 <maaku> *block headers
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1970 2014-01-07 18:26:42 <d34th> trying to compile HEAD, keep running into configure: error: hexdump is required for tests
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1988 2014-01-07 18:45:20 <gmaxwell> If anyone wants a fun project, http://www.zedboard.org/product/zedboard  is a dual cortex-a9 arm system with a 28nm fpga on the same SOC, ecdsa validaion is a major bottleneck on arm bitcoind.. would be pretty neat to see an ECDSA accelerator, and doing I/O between the FPGA and C code on the host can be done with a few lines of code.
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1993 2014-01-07 18:49:38 <phillipsjk> I get leery seeing stuff like: "Xilinx Vivado® Design Edition license voucher (device locked to 7Z020)"
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1996 2014-01-07 18:51:28 <gmaxwell> phillipsjk: it's normal for fpga stuff, basically they have licensed development tools that are moderately expensive, but give away versions that work only for a single chip.
1997 2014-01-07 18:51:53 Starduster has joined
1998 2014-01-07 18:53:07 <phillipsjk> gmaxwell, it is the proprietary nature of the hardware I don't like: my "new" GPU is a Geforce6200 (reverse-engineered) for that reason
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2050 2014-01-07 19:28:07 <midnightmagic> I've been sick awhile. Is there an anlysis of the OS/X leveldb corruption problem in concise technical language somewhere?
2051 2014-01-07 19:28:27 <midnightmagic> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=337294.0;all  <-- I see that but no link to the bounty-winning resolution.
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2056 2014-01-07 19:32:18 <robonerd> what was the last message pointed to me in here? my buffer ran out
2057 2014-01-07 19:32:53 <justanotheruser> (05:51:11 AM) BlueMatt: robonerd: you should be banned for that......
2058 2014-01-07 19:33:13 korndog has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2059 2014-01-07 19:33:25 <justanotheruser> 8.5 hours ago
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2061 2014-01-07 19:35:57 <robonerd> banned for what?
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2064 2014-01-07 19:38:49 <justanotheruser> robonerd: no clue
2065 2014-01-07 19:39:06 <robonerd> BlueMatt banned for what? i lost the history to buffer shark
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2068 2014-01-07 19:40:52 * TheLordOfTime raises an eyebrow
2069 2014-01-07 19:40:54 <TheLordOfTime> what've i missed?
2070 2014-01-07 19:40:58 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd: you also have a privmsg
2071 2014-01-07 19:41:45 <robonerd> yea i saw that. someone was trolling and i was reporting it
2072 2014-01-07 19:41:46 <robonerd> can't recall who/which chan tho now
2073 2014-01-07 19:42:06 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd: ah okay
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2083 2014-01-07 19:58:06 <BlueMatt> robonerd: posting job postings here
2084 2014-01-07 19:58:26 wallet42 has joined
2085 2014-01-07 19:58:33 <robonerd> i did? could you pm me the url? i honestly don't recall that
2086 2014-01-07 19:58:48 * TheLordOfTime grabs Luna's logs
2087 2014-01-07 19:59:14 <TheLordOfTime> BlueMatt: it was just a general job ad wasn't it?
2088 2014-01-07 19:59:16 <TheLordOfTime> not a link/
2089 2014-01-07 19:59:23 * TheLordOfTime is making sure he's got the right log excertps
2090 2014-01-07 20:00:12 <TheLordOfTime> was it this?  https://0bin.trekweb.org/paste/wrT17Pok#8dAZ/iugkmaIdh1KueITOmajyXKYC4UjHrEmYL8ZdNg=
2091 2014-01-07 20:00:17 ConvivialMatt has joined
2092 2014-01-07 20:00:40 <justanotheruser> This is probably why robonerd "(02:46:15 AM) robonerd: dev to dev here: any *badass* web app devs interested in joining a team for a bitcoin start up? small scale, quick launch, already has some good support"
2093 2014-01-07 20:01:22 <TheLordOfTime> justanotheruser: that's what i thought, it's in the 0bin link there
2094 2014-01-07 20:01:50 <robonerd> ahhh, yea...
2095 2014-01-07 20:01:57 <robonerd> did you see the part after where i say 'ah shit my bad'
2096 2014-01-07 20:02:06 <robonerd> thought i was in #bitcoin, so then i asked in there a few min later
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2098 2014-01-07 20:02:09 <robonerd> my mistake
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2100 2014-01-07 20:03:03 <BlueMatt> robocoin: ahh, no I missed that
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2104 2014-01-07 20:06:15 <robonerd> :/
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2141 2014-01-07 20:44:43 <lechuga__> man
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2143 2014-01-07 20:45:03 <lechuga__> i emailed out sick to work on bfgminer
2144 2014-01-07 20:45:08 <lechuga__> hope i dont get fired
2145 2014-01-07 20:45:19 <lechuga__> real work so boring tho
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2148 2014-01-07 20:52:30 <robonerd> lol
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2163 2014-01-07 21:11:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, I'm trying to build 0.8.6 (so no autotools) and even after `export USE_UPNP=`, I'm getting net.cpp:18:32: fatal error: miniupnpc/miniwget.h: No such file or directory
2164 2014-01-07 21:11:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|compilation terminated.
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2166 2014-01-07 21:11:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(this is on Debian wheezy)
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2168 2014-01-07 21:12:24 <Apocalyptic> michagogo|cloud, why don't you just edit makefile.unix and modify the USE_UPNP inside ?
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2173 2014-01-07 21:16:36 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: USE_UPNP=- disables it
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2175 2014-01-07 21:17:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Ah, thanks
2176 2014-01-07 21:18:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(doc/build-unix.md says just USE_UPNP=)
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2178 2014-01-07 21:18:46 <wumpus> making the variable empty would make it use the default, which is enabled
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2181 2014-01-07 21:19:41 <wumpus> huh yes it does, I may be confused with the qmake then
2182 2014-01-07 21:21:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|uh
2183 2014-01-07 21:21:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|$ USE_UPNP=- make -f makefile.unix
2184 2014-01-07 21:21:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|net.cpp:18:32: fatal error: miniupnpc/miniwget.h: No such file or directory
2185 2014-01-07 21:21:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|compilation terminated.
2186 2014-01-07 21:21:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|:-/
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2198 2014-01-07 21:36:36 <gjs278> michagogo|cloud: I hate the upnpc crap
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2200 2014-01-07 21:37:01 <gjs278> just give in and install it
2201 2014-01-07 21:37:13 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|agrees
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2217 2014-01-07 21:50:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gjs278: Can't
2218 2014-01-07 21:51:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anyway, got it to work... Looks like the place to set USE_UPNP=- isn't on the command line
2219 2014-01-07 21:51:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's in the first few lines of the makefile
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2263 2014-01-07 22:42:24 <sipa> wumpus: it used to be USE_UPNP= for make and USE_UPNP=- for qmake; it was later changed to be identical for both
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2266 2014-01-07 22:43:07 <sipa> iirc
2267 2014-01-07 22:43:14 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: ^
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2273 2014-01-07 22:46:19 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: USE_UPNP= would work on the commandline too.
2274 2014-01-07 22:46:27 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: commandline var assignments override Makefile ones
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2276 2014-01-07 22:46:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: ...it didn't, though
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2278 2014-01-07 22:47:25 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: then your make command is broken.. :/
2279 2014-01-07 22:47:38 <Luke-Jr> make -f makefile.unix USE_UPNP=-
2280 2014-01-07 22:47:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh
2281 2014-01-07 22:47:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, I was doing it as an env variable
2282 2014-01-07 22:48:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I had tried `USE_UPNP=- make -f makefile.unix`
2283 2014-01-07 22:56:48 Neil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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2285 2014-01-07 22:57:35 <sipa> aaaaaand it's on slashdot
2286 2014-01-07 22:57:38 <sipa> (coingen.io)
2287 2014-01-07 22:58:05 temp has joined
2288 2014-01-07 23:00:17 <gjs278> coingen is such a hilarious idea
2289 2014-01-07 23:01:36 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2290 2014-01-07 23:01:38 <helo> it's a test of the "anybody can clone bitcoin means bitcoin is worthless" theory, at least
2291 2014-01-07 23:02:02 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I'm tempted to do it better.
2292 2014-01-07 23:02:09 <Luke-Jr> as in, instantly made..
2293 2014-01-07 23:02:11 <helo> might as well see how far the altcoin ball will roll
2294 2014-01-07 23:02:31 <justanotheruser> I predict the collapse of altcoins thanks to coingen.io
2295 2014-01-07 23:02:39 johnsoft has joined
2296 2014-01-07 23:02:57 <helo> why not bitcoin too?
2297 2014-01-07 23:03:00 <Luke-Jr> idea is, just template out all the variables, then hack the binaries directly
2298 2014-01-07 23:03:03 <Luke-Jr> no recompile needed :D
2299 2014-01-07 23:03:59 ytrewq has joined
2300 2014-01-07 23:04:12 <justanotheruser> helo: because bitcoin actually serves a purpose, altcoins serve as pump and dump tools.
2301 2014-01-07 23:04:32 <helo> justanotheruser: playing devil's advocate here, but many claim bitcoin is just a pump and dump tool.
2302 2014-01-07 23:05:15 <gjs278> I honestly believing anyone who intended to use btc as a pump and dump sold too early. I thought the same thing and sold a lot at $1
2303 2014-01-07 23:05:17 <helo> (just because something can or even does function as a pump and dump doesn't mean it is)
2304 2014-01-07 23:05:39 <justanotheruser> helo: they do, but it actually has many businesses accepting it. If there is any decentralized currency that will be big it is bitcoin
2305 2014-01-07 23:05:50 robocoin_ has joined
2306 2014-01-07 23:06:33 <helo> yeah, that's our counter-argument... "network effects"
2307 2014-01-07 23:06:56 <lechuga__> are there any altcoins that have actually innovated beyond hashcash for PoW?
2308 2014-01-07 23:07:00 <lechuga__> aside from primecoin
2309 2014-01-07 23:07:10 <justanotheruser> lechuga__: namecoin allows for a decentralized DNS
2310 2014-01-07 23:07:33 <Eagle[TM]> it's about critical mass as well. you can fork the Internet. Except hardly anyone tries
2311 2014-01-07 23:07:34 <helo> but "network effects" are generally only significant over shortish timespans
2312 2014-01-07 23:07:34 <justanotheruser> and PoS, but the devs here don't think it is secure
2313 2014-01-07 23:07:58 <Luke-Jr> lechuga__: primecoin doesn't even really count
2314 2014-01-07 23:08:19 <lechuga__> why not?
2315 2014-01-07 23:08:22 <justanotheruser> helo: true, but why would users choose to use something that has 1/20th the market cap and 1/1000th the businesses with the same exact functionality?
2316 2014-01-07 23:08:23 <Luke-Jr> lechuga__: PoW simply isn't really relevant
2317 2014-01-07 23:08:30 <Luke-Jr> it proves work. what that work is, who cares
2318 2014-01-07 23:08:41 <Luke-Jr> and SHA256d is now in the ideal position for proof-of-work
2319 2014-01-07 23:08:54 <Luke-Jr> that is, lots of ASICs designed just for that purpose
2320 2014-01-07 23:08:59 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2321 2014-01-07 23:08:59 <Luke-Jr> widely spread
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2323 2014-01-07 23:10:07 <lechuga__> itd be interestign to me if theyre could be another useful byproduct to PoW
2324 2014-01-07 23:10:10 <lechuga__> there*
2325 2014-01-07 23:10:22 T19EL has joined
2326 2014-01-07 23:10:25 <lechuga__> seems really hard to imagine though
2327 2014-01-07 23:10:27 <maaku> lechuga__: because the prime finding work of primecoin is 100% scientifically useless
2328 2014-01-07 23:10:28 <sipa> if that byproduct is valuable, the PoW becomes less secure
2329 2014-01-07 23:10:44 <maaku> and is likely, due to its construction, weaker than sha256
2330 2014-01-07 23:11:36 <helo> still waiting on the universe simulation mining coin
2331 2014-01-07 23:11:46 <lechuga__> lol
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2333 2014-01-07 23:12:00 <Luke-Jr> [23:00:06] <lechuga__> itd be interestign to me if theyre could be another useful byproduct to PoW <-- but there is!
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2335 2014-01-07 23:12:18 <jakov> protine folding coin
2336 2014-01-07 23:12:18 <lechuga__> aside from maintaning the blockchain?
2337 2014-01-07 23:12:21 <jakov> cant happen sadly
2338 2014-01-07 23:12:23 <maaku> time-lock encryption
2339 2014-01-07 23:12:26 <maaku> see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas
2340 2014-01-07 23:12:27 <gjs278> altcoins are only good for me as trading value on btc-e
2341 2014-01-07 23:12:28 <Luke-Jr> lechuga__: yes, it also maintains namecoin's blockchain! :D
2342 2014-01-07 23:12:32 <lechuga__> haha
2343 2014-01-07 23:12:34 VinceSamios has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2344 2014-01-07 23:12:43 <lechuga__> thats actually fair
2345 2014-01-07 23:13:21 sassamo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2346 2014-01-07 23:13:51 <jakov> litecoin has much of the infrastructure, theres a locallitecoins, its on coinmap.org
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2348 2014-01-07 23:14:12 <jakov> is scrypt() really that good?
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2350 2014-01-07 23:14:18 <maaku> jakov: no
2351 2014-01-07 23:14:20 <Luke-Jr> jakov: scrypt is basically a failure
2352 2014-01-07 23:14:21 tencevad__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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2354 2014-01-07 23:14:36 <maaku> it is worse in nearly every regard
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2356 2014-01-07 23:14:43 <jakov> i know you can see old threads where they say you cant use gpu for scrypt()
2357 2014-01-07 23:15:00 SwampTony has joined
2358 2014-01-07 23:15:17 <jakov> Luke-Jr in what sense? stopping miner centralisation?
2359 2014-01-07 23:15:34 <sipa> depending on your goal, scrypt might have been good
2360 2014-01-07 23:15:38 <maaku> it is expensive to verify. that is not good for proof of work
2361 2014-01-07 23:15:39 <sipa> but not with 128 KiB RAM
2362 2014-01-07 23:16:12 <jakov> next altcoin: scrypt parameters so large your OS has to use swap to do a hash
2363 2014-01-07 23:16:18 <jcorgan> is scrypt still useful for key derivation (PBKDF2)?
2364 2014-01-07 23:16:22 <sipa> yes
2365 2014-01-07 23:16:27 <Luke-Jr> jakov: it was supposed to be GPU-resistent (no real use in itself, even if it was), and memory-hard (it isn't)
2366 2014-01-07 23:16:35 <sipa> PBKDF2 != scrypt
2367 2014-01-07 23:16:42 <maaku> if it really was cpu-only, that would only move control of the coin into a handful of botnets
2368 2014-01-07 23:16:42 <sipa> but they serve the same purpose
2369 2014-01-07 23:16:46 <sipa> and it's good for that
2370 2014-01-07 23:16:55 <sipa> maaku: indeed
2371 2014-01-07 23:17:00 <jakov> maaku thats not necessarily bad
2372 2014-01-07 23:17:04 <jakov> better than than spam emails
2373 2014-01-07 23:17:08 <sipa> maybe
2374 2014-01-07 23:17:09 fractastical has quit (Quit: fractastical)
2375 2014-01-07 23:17:16 <Luke-Jr> scrypt is good for its intended purpose
2376 2014-01-07 23:17:19 <Luke-Jr> but that isn't PoW ;)
2377 2014-01-07 23:17:20 <jcorgan> i guess i need to read up again on PBKDF2, i thought it used rounds of scrypt internally
2378 2014-01-07 23:17:34 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2379 2014-01-07 23:17:35 <lechuga__> mturkcoin
2380 2014-01-07 23:17:44 <jakov> im pretty sure scrypt() uses pbkdf2 internally, or maybe bcrypt
2381 2014-01-07 23:18:03 <sipa> pbkdf2 uses any hash function internally
2382 2014-01-07 23:18:07 <sipa> it's parametrized in it
2383 2014-01-07 23:18:11 <lechuga__> requires solving problems only humans can in predictable time
2384 2014-01-07 23:18:21 <jakov> Luke-Jr is that scrypt() itself not being memory hard or the parameters litecoin chose?
2385 2014-01-07 23:18:22 <gmaxwell> There have been some proposals based on scrypt that sounds like moderately better KDFs.
2386 2014-01-07 23:18:50 gjs278 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2387 2014-01-07 23:18:50 <Luke-Jr> jakov: in terms of a PoW, scrypt itself is not memory-hard
2388 2014-01-07 23:19:07 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2389 2014-01-07 23:19:07 <Luke-Jr> jakov: the key thing for a PoW is that it must be easier to verify than to find. scrypt requires just as much memory to verify, as to find.
2390 2014-01-07 23:19:20 <gmaxwell> jakov: you can't really make scrypt memory hard for a POW because of verficiation costs.  (and the memory hard verify cheap things all have degrees of progress / time memory tradeoffs which are unfortuate)
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2392 2014-01-07 23:19:41 <jakov> yes
2393 2014-01-07 23:19:43 <gmaxwell> even with the watered down parameters in ltc scrypt is arguably too expensive.
2394 2014-01-07 23:19:53 <jakov> every new block has be run in scrypt
2395 2014-01-07 23:20:12 <gmaxwell> (certantly it would completely crap over any effort to subject ltc to zero knoweldge proofs)
2396 2014-01-07 23:21:24 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2397 2014-01-07 23:21:29 <gmaxwell> (it's visbily slow e.g. during syncing, I boggle at these altcoins with 30 second blocks and that pow, they're going to be awesome to watch sync up two years from now)
2398 2014-01-07 23:21:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: they'll be dead sooner
2399 2014-01-07 23:22:10 <jakov> if any of them are "good enough" they still might continue growing
2400 2014-01-07 23:22:28 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea but it's like mutual funds that underperform, they just vanish when they fail so that no one remembers how much was lost on the losers. :P
2401 2014-01-07 23:22:55 <jcorgan> two years from now bluematt can turn coingen.io into altcoinmuseum.io
2402 2014-01-07 23:22:57 <Luke-Jr> jakov: none are, by definition
2403 2014-01-07 23:24:36 <jakov> coingen.io charges
2404 2014-01-07 23:24:37 <jakov> nice
2405 2014-01-07 23:24:50 <lechuga__> do they charge in altcoins?
2406 2014-01-07 23:25:11 <jakov> only btc accepted it seems, and a fixed number
2407 2014-01-07 23:25:16 <jakov> 0.05btc to make a coin
2408 2014-01-07 23:25:18 rich_ has joined
2409 2014-01-07 23:25:20 <lechuga__> how curious...
2410 2014-01-07 23:25:23 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the network hashrate charts are off the chart again
2411 2014-01-07 23:25:28 <jakov> whether thats worth $5 or $9999, still 0.05
2412 2014-01-07 23:25:51 <jakov> imo its too unsubtle "Want to create your own coin and get in on this gravy train?"
2413 2014-01-07 23:25:58 <jakov> if the purpose of the site is to be anti-altcoin
2414 2014-01-07 23:26:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jcorgan: you mean super3 can
2415 2014-01-07 23:26:32 <jcorgan> ?
2416 2014-01-07 23:26:36 <super3> hmmm
2417 2014-01-07 23:27:12 <phantomcircuit> jakov, something something hmm gravy
2418 2014-01-07 23:27:14 <super3> oh everyone is hating on coingen?
2419 2014-01-07 23:27:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jcorgan: re 1:12:59 <jcorgan> two years from now bluematt can turn coingen.io into altcoinmuseum.io
2420 2014-01-07 23:27:37 Gabit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2421 2014-01-07 23:27:37 <phantomcircuit> ahah
2422 2014-01-07 23:27:44 <jakov> im not hating
2423 2014-01-07 23:28:10 <shesek> oh wow, matt already sold over 100 of those
2424 2014-01-07 23:28:21 <shesek> it was at something like 7 last time I checked
2425 2014-01-07 23:28:24 <super3> heh i took over coingen
2426 2014-01-07 23:28:35 <justanotheruser> he's probably making a few thousand dollars a day
2427 2014-01-07 23:28:57 <super3> justanotheruser, add a zero
2428 2014-01-07 23:29:11 <justanotheruser> he's probably making a few thousand0 dollars a day
2429 2014-01-07 23:29:28 <justanotheruser> sorry, bad joke
2430 2014-01-07 23:29:38 * super3 laughed 
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2432 2014-01-07 23:30:13 <super3> i bought it from him, but im considering selling it again to fund my Bitcoin documentation project, and a few other things
2433 2014-01-07 23:30:43 <super3> because Bitcoin documentation sucks, and needs to be fixed like now
2434 2014-01-07 23:30:44 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2435 2014-01-07 23:31:03 <lechuga__> bleh theres plenty of code
2436 2014-01-07 23:31:13 <lechuga__> :)
2437 2014-01-07 23:31:18 <justanotheruser>  There's around 100 altcoins generated so far, so like 50/day, probably averaging .1btc/coin, so 5btc/day = $5000/day
2438 2014-01-07 23:31:28 <maaku> super3: I thought you said "documentary" and got excited
2439 2014-01-07 23:31:33 <jakov> maaku do you know of an altcoin that does the time lock encryption POW from that wiki's alt_ideas ?
2440 2014-01-07 23:31:37 johnsoft has joined
2441 2014-01-07 23:31:50 <justanotheruser> oops, 0.01btc/day = $500
2442 2014-01-07 23:31:51 <super3> maaku, someone is working on that i think
2443 2014-01-07 23:31:52 <maaku> jakov: basically none of those ideas are implemented
2444 2014-01-07 23:31:54 rdymac has joined
2445 2014-01-07 23:31:56 <justanotheruser> still pretty nice though
2446 2014-01-07 23:32:05 <jakov> its a great idea
2447 2014-01-07 23:32:18 <maaku> i don't think all the kinks have been worked out
2448 2014-01-07 23:32:25 <shesek> the average price of the unpaid coins is 0.075 btc ($('.row h4').map(function(){ return +this.innerText.match(/0\.\d+/) }).get().reduce(function(a,b){return a+b},0)/$('.row h4').length)
2449 2014-01-07 23:32:28 <shesek> * 0.076 btc
2450 2014-01-07 23:33:00 <justanotheruser> shesek: I wonder what the average price of paid coins it (possibly lower?)
2451 2014-01-07 23:33:02 <shesek> that sums up to about $6897 in sales, if that average represents the average of the ones that were paid
2452 2014-01-07 23:33:12 <maaku> but it is, to my knowledge, the only idea for pow that is useful witout compromising security, by virtue of being a non-monetizable public good
2453 2014-01-07 23:33:18 <shesek> justanotheruser, the price for paid coins doesn't show up
2454 2014-01-07 23:33:30 <super3> shesek, you are only counting the listed ones
2455 2014-01-07 23:33:33 <shesek> but yeah, probably somewhere lower
2456 2014-01-07 23:33:54 <shesek> oh right, there could be unlisted ones
2457 2014-01-07 23:33:56 <justanotheruser> shesek: yeah, but it is easy to say you want a coin worth 0.15btc and not pay
2458 2014-01-07 23:34:24 <shesek> justanotheruser, yeah, as I said, the average for paid ones is probably lower than the unpaid ones
2459 2014-01-07 23:34:30 <shesek> still, its a rough estimate
2460 2014-01-07 23:34:35 freewil has joined
2461 2014-01-07 23:34:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, if you placed an order before prices changed, the order keeps the old price
2462 2014-01-07 23:34:44 <shesek> a lot of people also probably submitted with the defaults, which would take the average down
2463 2014-01-07 23:35:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(They changed at least twice)
2464 2014-01-07 23:35:34 <jakov> i imagine if someone said they encrypted a private key of a bitcoin address with 100btc inside timelockcoin
2465 2014-01-07 23:35:37 <justanotheruser> only way to know for sure is look for the source and watermark on each coin
2466 2014-01-07 23:36:02 <jakov> now miners have an incentive to break that one key of timelockcoin rather than mine it normally
2467 2014-01-07 23:36:09 <jakov> bad incentive, yeah kinks left
2468 2014-01-07 23:36:16 <maaku> anyone who submits with the defaults can have their coin destroyed by replaying the bitcoin chain...
2469 2014-01-07 23:36:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jakov: prove it
2470 2014-01-07 23:36:56 <shesek> maaku, doesn't it have different versions/magic header bytes?
2471 2014-01-07 23:37:01 <maaku> jakov: you encrypt using all the keys between now and the future date
2472 2014-01-07 23:37:06 <maaku> shesek: so? that doesn't appear in the block chain
2473 2014-01-07 23:37:16 <jakov> maaku ohright, okay convinced
2474 2014-01-07 23:37:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: a little find+replace in a hex editor
2475 2014-01-07 23:37:34 <maaku> jakov: well it still has kinks though, just not that
2476 2014-01-07 23:37:46 <maaku> e.g. how you handle difficultly adjustment is a little quirky
2477 2014-01-07 23:37:48 <jakov> clever, damn crypto is filled with great insights like that
2478 2014-01-07 23:38:10 <shesek> maaku, I'm talking about the 0xD9B4BEF9 that starts every block
2479 2014-01-07 23:38:21 <jakov> i thought timelockcoin would have to become super valuable, to incentives miners to protect it, but maybe not
2480 2014-01-07 23:38:21 <shesek> it is in the blockchain afaik
2481 2014-01-07 23:38:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: it's not
2482 2014-01-07 23:38:28 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, that would invalidate the pow
2483 2014-01-07 23:38:34 <maaku> shesek: that's in the blk*.dat files, not the block chain itself
2484 2014-01-07 23:38:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's in the block files on disk
2485 2014-01-07 23:38:39 <maaku> it's not included in the hashes
2486 2014-01-07 23:38:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And over the wire
2487 2014-01-07 23:39:00 <shesek> oh, really?
2488 2014-01-07 23:39:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, I wonder if the Bitcoin netmagic is actually in the blockchain anywhere
2489 2014-01-07 23:39:05 elgrecoFL has quit (Excess Flood)
2490 2014-01-07 23:39:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(If someone has put those bytes into a tx or header)
2491 2014-01-07 23:39:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: yeah, I actually did that earlier
2492 2014-01-07 23:39:37 <shesek> well, still, I assume altcoins have unique genesis blocks?
2493 2014-01-07 23:39:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: nah
2494 2014-01-07 23:39:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|At least not coingen alta
2495 2014-01-07 23:40:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|alts*
2496 2014-01-07 23:40:12 <shesek> well... that's not good
2497 2014-01-07 23:40:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|At least, not earlier coingen alts
2498 2014-01-07 23:40:28 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2499 2014-01-07 23:40:34 <shesek> someone could indeed very easily hijack one of those alts blockchain and replace it with bitcoin's
2500 2014-01-07 23:40:47 <shesek> wait, they aren't unique among eachother or actually use the same one as bitcoin?
2501 2014-01-07 23:41:00 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: if they have the same magic, are they really just the same blockchain competing with each other in different forks?
2502 2014-01-07 23:41:01 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|considers uploading bootstrap.dat to the jesuscoin chain
2503 2014-01-07 23:41:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: yep
2504 2014-01-07 23:41:18 <maaku> super3: you should probably add some random noise to the default parameters shown
2505 2014-01-07 23:41:25 <shesek> justanotheruser, unless they have a different genesis block
2506 2014-01-07 23:41:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: Magiccoin and Jesuscoin both use the bailout genesis block
2507 2014-01-07 23:41:39 <jakov> then the site would have to mine it
2508 2014-01-07 23:41:41 <maaku> (which they don't)
2509 2014-01-07 23:41:45 elgrecoFL has joined
2510 2014-01-07 23:42:47 <super3> well technically you would have to attack the coin from block one
2511 2014-01-07 23:42:53 <super3> actually
2512 2014-01-07 23:42:55 <super3> no your right
2513 2014-01-07 23:42:57 <shesek> super3, not really...
2514 2014-01-07 23:43:08 <shesek> you should at least stick the coin's name somewhere in the genesis block
2515 2014-01-07 23:43:14 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2516 2014-01-07 23:43:22 <maaku> shesek: he'd have to mine the genesis block then
2517 2014-01-07 23:43:22 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: how do they differentiate between blockchains?
2518 2014-01-07 23:43:42 <super3> basically at coin launch
2519 2014-01-07 23:44:16 <super3> you could mine from block 10 or so on bitcoin, and grab a bunch of blocks till everyone catches up
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2521 2014-01-07 23:44:22 <super3> you would have the longest chain
2522 2014-01-07 23:45:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: they don't
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2525 2014-01-07 23:45:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's just that the magic bytes are different
2526 2014-01-07 23:45:50 <maaku> but, critically, magic bytes are just a gentleman's agreement
2527 2014-01-07 23:46:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So a Jesuscoin node won't talk to a Bitcoin node won't talk to a Magiccoin node
2528 2014-01-07 23:46:12 <justanotheruser> (06:31:03 PM) justanotheruser: michagogo|cloud: if they have the same magic, are they really just the same blockchain competing with each other in different forks?
2529 2014-01-07 23:46:12 <justanotheruser> (06:31:12 PM) michagogo|cloud: justanotheruser: yep
2530 2014-01-07 23:46:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But that's not part of the blocks
2531 2014-01-07 23:46:21 <justanotheruser> So they do have different magic?
2532 2014-01-07 23:46:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: yes
2533 2014-01-07 23:46:29 <maaku> "oh you're 0xfe 23 d7 4f? carry on then"
2534 2014-01-07 23:46:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But the magic isn't part of the blockchain
2535 2014-01-07 23:46:46 * shesek wonders if any altcoins with bitcoin's genesis block are traded... that could cause some havoc
2536 2014-01-07 23:47:02 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: oh, so these new coins are incredibly vulnerable then?
2537 2014-01-07 23:47:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: yep
2538 2014-01-07 23:47:16 <super3> wait a minute
2539 2014-01-07 23:47:25 <maaku> shesek: feathercoin initially was an exact clone of litecoin, and exchange listed
2540 2014-01-07 23:47:27 <super3> what about feathercoin?
2541 2014-01-07 23:47:36 <maaku> they since forked
2542 2014-01-07 23:47:44 saizai has quit (Quit: saizai)
2543 2014-01-07 23:47:48 <super3> well time to sell all my feathecoin
2544 2014-01-07 23:48:02 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: why doesn't the blockchain have the same magic?
2545 2014-01-07 23:48:18 * maaku considered replacing feathercoin chain with litecoin back in the day, then thought better of it and merely reported the vulnerabilities to the devs
2546 2014-01-07 23:48:24 <shesek> probably to save some bytes
2547 2014-01-07 23:48:36 <shesek> its not really needed as long as you're using unique genesis blocks
2548 2014-01-07 23:48:47 <sipa> "save some bytes" ???
2549 2014-01-07 23:48:57 rdymac has joined
2550 2014-01-07 23:49:13 <shesek> sipa, ?
2551 2014-01-07 23:49:21 <sipa> what bytes do you save?
2552 2014-01-07 23:50:23 <super3> more like feathercoin devs didn't know how to create a gensis block
2553 2014-01-07 23:50:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: the magic isn't part of the block days
2554 2014-01-07 23:50:28 <maaku> justanotheruser: the magic bytes are just a network protocol thing
2555 2014-01-07 23:50:29 <shesek> 4 bytes per block... which is really nothing now that I think of it
2556 2014-01-07 23:50:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Data*
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2558 2014-01-07 23:50:35 <maaku> it's got no place in the block chain
2559 2014-01-07 23:50:39 <shesek> s/of/about
2560 2014-01-07 23:50:47 <sipa> shesek: but how is it "saved" ?
2561 2014-01-07 23:51:11 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: maaku: bitcoins magic number seems to be in the block https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block
2562 2014-01-07 23:51:12 <shesek> oh. right. I see your point - its still sent over the network and stored in the files
2563 2014-01-07 23:51:30 <maaku> justanotheruser: no, it is not
2564 2014-01-07 23:51:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: the magic is prepended to each block on disk
2565 2014-01-07 23:51:33 <shesek> just not hashed as part of the PoW
2566 2014-01-07 23:51:35 <maaku> that describes the on-disk file format
2567 2014-01-07 23:51:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And it's prepended to each network message
2568 2014-01-07 23:51:50 <justanotheruser> oh, I see
2569 2014-01-07 23:51:58 <shesek> sipa, why is it like that, than? seems like it would've been better to include it
2570 2014-01-07 23:52:06 <maaku> shesek: why?
2571 2014-01-07 23:52:11 <maaku> what would be the purpose?
2572 2014-01-07 23:52:16 <shesek> s/than/then
2573 2014-01-07 23:52:31 <justanotheruser> So what keeps someone from communicating bitcoin blocks with IXcoin?
2574 2014-01-07 23:52:43 <maaku> and that benefits bitcoin... how?
2575 2014-01-07 23:52:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anyone happen to be at a computer with a copy of bootstrap.dat and a tool that can search the binary?
2576 2014-01-07 23:52:49 <shesek> prevent PoW from being interchangeable between altcoins?
2577 2014-01-07 23:53:12 <shesek> assuming non-unique genesis blocks (which isn't really a valid assumption... that is a much easier way to "fix" it)
2578 2014-01-07 23:53:23 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: what you want?
2579 2014-01-07 23:53:29 <maaku> you mean prevent scamcoin developers from shooting themselves in the foot because they can't figure out how to build a genesis block
2580 2014-01-07 23:53:30 <sipa> shesek: bitcoin wasn't designed to have altcoins
2581 2014-01-07 23:53:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If so, it'd be good to know how many times the netmagic appears in bootstrap.dat
2582 2014-01-07 23:53:42 <maaku> not our problem, not worth adding even 1 byte to fix
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2584 2014-01-07 23:53:46 <sipa> shesek: and we can't have security of the network depend on such an addumption either
2585 2014-01-07 23:54:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Specifically, if it's 250,001 times or more)
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2588 2014-01-07 23:54:16 Starduster has quit (Quit: gotta go)
2589 2014-01-07 23:54:30 <shesek> well, yeah, I agree with you.
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2591 2014-01-07 23:54:34 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: bitcoin.conf  bitcoind.pid  blocks  chainstate  database  db.log  debug.log  peers.dat  testnet3  wallet.dat
2592 2014-01-07 23:54:42 <justanotheruser> It's not in blocks
2593 2014-01-07 23:54:47 <justanotheruser> where is it?
2594 2014-01-07 23:55:00 <justanotheruser> or is it not in the bitcoind folder
2595 2014-01-07 23:55:01 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, probably once per block, no?
2596 2014-01-07 23:55:18 drayah has joined
2597 2014-01-07 23:56:18 <shesek> super3, seriously, add something unique to the genesis blocks coingen is creating... either some randomness or the coin name or something
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2604 2014-01-07 23:58:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: at least 1 per block
2605 2014-01-07 23:58:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But there's no rule banning it from being in block/tx data
2606 2014-01-07 23:59:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: I specifically said, "with a copy of bootstrap.dat"
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