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   2 2014-01-08 00:00:52 <shesek> since its just 4 bytes, its also likely to appear randomly in some places
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   4 2014-01-08 00:01:02 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: Sorry, I assumed I had it. Would you be okay with me counting the instances in blocks/*.dat?
   5 2014-01-08 00:01:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If bootstrap.dat contains exactly 250,000 magics, breaking any Bitcoin-parameter altcoin is as easy as a search and replace of the bytes
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   7 2014-01-08 00:01:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: that would include things like orphan blocks
   8 2014-01-08 00:01:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, wait a minute
   9 2014-01-08 00:02:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does linearize.py insert the magic bytes?
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  11 2014-01-08 00:02:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Since I'd assume getblock or whatever it uses doesn't include the bytes)
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  15 2014-01-08 00:03:53 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: ??
  16 2014-01-08 00:04:03 <sipa> why does the magic in the bootstrap matter?
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  18 2014-01-08 00:04:16 <sipa> the blocks would be invalid to another system
  19 2014-01-08 00:04:46 <sipa> unless the same PoW function, same genesis, same retarget frequency, same payout schedule, ...
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  23 2014-01-08 00:05:56 <shesek> sipa, which seems to be exactly what coingen gives you by default
  24 2014-01-08 00:06:11 <sipa> ah :D
  25 2014-01-08 00:06:12 <shesek> and probably some other altcoins, too
  26 2014-01-08 00:06:27 <sipa> coingen doesn't modify the genesis block?
  27 2014-01-08 00:06:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: nope
  28 2014-01-08 00:06:43 <sipa> fail :)
  29 2014-01-08 00:07:19 <shesek> so basically its just a sed over the files, opening the client and connecting to some nodes
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  31 2014-01-08 00:07:25 <shesek> and you hijack the alt's blockchain
  32 2014-01-08 00:07:28 <shesek> that's pretty bad :O
  33 2014-01-08 00:07:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So a small tweak to linearize.py and you have a script to instakill those alts
  34 2014-01-08 00:08:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: a sed over the files?
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  36 2014-01-08 00:09:21 <shesek> sed the program, a stream editor
  37 2014-01-08 00:09:57 <shesek> tho I'm not sure if that works only on text or on byte streams too, never tried it
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  39 2014-01-08 00:10:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: I know what sed is
  40 2014-01-08 00:10:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But which files are you referring to?
  41 2014-01-08 00:11:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You can't just substitute all instances of netmagic
  42 2014-01-08 00:11:18 <shesek> you'll need a way to tell apart magic bytes from other places it randomly appears as part of something else
  43 2014-01-08 00:11:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Because it may occur within a block
  44 2014-01-08 00:11:43 <shesek> ... yeah, its probably best to use something that actually understands the blockchain's structure
  45 2014-01-08 00:12:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: easiest way is just to use linearize.py, I'd imagine
  46 2014-01-08 00:13:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just change the line for the new magic
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  49 2014-01-08 00:16:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, linearize.py probably requires that you be running git master, right?
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  52 2014-01-08 00:17:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|super3: how hard would it actually be to generate a list of parameters from each altcoin on coingen?
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  62 2014-01-08 00:24:28 <atian> test
  63 2014-01-08 00:24:29 <atian> !oubg
  64 2014-01-08 00:24:29 <gribble> Error: "oubg" is not a valid command.
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 154 2014-01-08 01:38:52 <super3> michagogo|cloud, what do you mean
 155 2014-01-08 01:39:08 <super3> also its seems like coingen.io just got picked up by the guardian
 156 2014-01-08 01:39:08 <super3> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jan/07/bitcoin-me-how-to-make-your-own-digital-currency
 157 2014-01-08 01:39:20 <super3> and slashdot
 158 2014-01-08 01:39:21 <super3> http://news.slashdot.org/story/14/01/07/2134242/how-to-create-your-own-cryptocurrency
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 309 2014-01-08 04:59:54 <lechuga__> does a notion of max_txns per template still make sense?
 310 2014-01-08 04:59:57 <lechuga__> misfire
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 361 2014-01-08 05:34:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|super3: I mean, a list of all the coingen coins and what their parameters are
 362 2014-01-08 05:35:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(PoW, port, source included, as well as the blockchain params
 363 2014-01-08 05:35:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|)
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 395 2014-01-08 06:20:57 <super3> yeah thats in the roadmap
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 397 2014-01-08 06:21:29 <super3> michagogo|cloud, unless i sell it tonight, already have a decent offer
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 404 2014-01-08 06:26:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|super3: heh, trading hands quite a bit
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 407 2014-01-08 06:26:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|How much did you pay for it?
 408 2014-01-08 06:26:47 <super3> heh its like pandoras box
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 410 2014-01-08 06:28:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|super3: is there a chance you could generate a one-off list, even if you don't end up adding the params to the status page?
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 412 2014-01-08 06:29:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'm really curious to see how many leave the parameters untouched, leaving then as exact bitcoin clones
 413 2014-01-08 06:29:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Them*
 414 2014-01-08 06:29:56 <super3> i'd have to get all the old stats from matt
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 417 2014-01-08 06:31:05 <super3> lol, enough
 418 2014-01-08 06:32:08 <super3> michagogo|cloud, you seem pretty intrested in it. i can offer it to you as well if you want.
 419 2014-01-08 06:34:04 coiners has joined
 420 2014-01-08 06:34:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Meh, I don't really have much time to advance it or update it or work on it
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 422 2014-01-08 06:35:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Also, I'm not too familiar with Bitcoin's source and I don't know C++, so I wouldn't really know how to make changes
 423 2014-01-08 06:36:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|)
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 494 2014-01-08 08:08:22 <warren> sipa: I've confirmed with 95% certainty that the upgrade to boost-1.54 introduced some kind of networking failure issue on some windows machines.
 495 2014-01-08 08:08:50 <warren> preliminary tests suggests that boost-1.55 isn't better
 496 2014-01-08 08:08:57 <warren> downgrading to 1.50 seems to fix it
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 528 2014-01-08 08:54:06 <paavo> are there any people interested in creating a voting system based on bitcoin like technologies?
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 538 2014-01-08 08:59:11 <gmaxwell> paavo: offtopic for this channel, though it's a oft repeated (in my opinion) bad idea. There is a vast body of literature on cryptographic voting systems and blockchains do not solve any of their problems (and, in fact, a bunch more serious ones of their own).
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 543 2014-01-08 09:00:04 <gmaxwell> paavo: you might want to talk to justanotheruser though, as I was recently trying to convince them that they were all-things-are-nailsing it with similar thinking and I don't know if I was successful.
 544 2014-01-08 09:00:12 amekko has quit (Quit: amekko)
 545 2014-01-08 09:00:52 <gmaxwell> paavo: though I beg you to conserve your time by searching and reading the existing cryptographic voting literature first. (e.g. google cryptographic voting)
 546 2014-01-08 09:00:54 <paavo> i understand your sentiment...
 547 2014-01-08 09:01:14 mhanne_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 548 2014-01-08 09:01:46 <paavo> was simply looking here for sources or connections to similar thinking
 549 2014-01-08 09:01:59 <paavo> the next logical step
 550 2014-01-08 09:02:15 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: yeah, pretty much. I think it was petertodd who linked me to some voting scheme that solved the same problems my idea would have
 551 2014-01-08 09:02:26 <justanotheruser> plus it was peer reviewed
 552 2014-01-08 09:02:47 <paavo> politicians are to voting is what banks are to money
 553 2014-01-08 09:03:14 <justanotheruser> paavo: I can give politicians 1 vote and that vote will get compounding interest?
 554 2014-01-08 09:03:24 <paavo> exactly
 555 2014-01-08 09:03:27 <justanotheruser> lol
 556 2014-01-08 09:03:33 <paavo> they can now vote for whatever they want once theyre in
 557 2014-01-08 09:03:36 <gmaxwell> I've seen it proposed at least two dozen times, but every time I believe the person proposing it was confused— or just hadn't thought through— what problems bitcoin solves, what problems voting systems have, and weren't at all informed about the extensive work that has gone on in that space.
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 559 2014-01-08 09:04:09 <gmaxwell> so no, I don't have any citations to it, but really I think if you go read up on cryptographic voting you'll be in a much better position to ask good questions.
 560 2014-01-08 09:04:09 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: what problems do you think can be solved by bitcoin that aren't financial?
 561 2014-01-08 09:04:15 <paavo> we need a system to dismantle decision making from select few to the masses
 562 2014-01-08 09:04:26 <justanotheruser> other than being data storage (nmc)
 563 2014-01-08 09:05:04 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: well, thats a tricky question, because it's not clear that POW consensus works outside of narrow economic incentives! though even ignoring that I could try to answer the question.
 564 2014-01-08 09:06:04 InsiderJoe has joined
 565 2014-01-08 09:06:14 <paavo> using a specific pgp-like unique key could every us citizen vote for a bill going through congress?
 566 2014-01-08 09:06:36 <paavo> remove politicians and have an open platform for discussion
 567 2014-01-08 09:06:40 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: merged mining with a little incentive for solving each block could make a blockchain work though
 568 2014-01-08 09:06:42 <paavo> with reddit like upvoting
 569 2014-01-08 09:06:47 <gmaxwell> — first bitcoin gives you a consensus, but not a strongly censorship resistant one... so whatever applications have to need a consensus. Secondly, bitcoin like systems are global (it's not clear if POW works on a localized basis! since indifferent hashpower from elsewhere might be bought to attack) ... so it has to be a consensus which operates at a scale where sharing it globally is viable.
 570 2014-01-08 09:07:11 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: but where does the incentive come from and what form does it take? who provides it?   Bitcoin can provide its own, which is somewhat special.
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 573 2014-01-08 09:08:07 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: so _naming_ (not data storage) actually does need a consensus, and if the namespace is a global one, then you meet the above criteria.  (except for the incentives stuff, I don't think we really know how to make incentives work there, nmc is kind of a falure wrt that)
 574 2014-01-08 09:08:24 <paavo> how about a decentralized system of pgp registry
 575 2014-01-08 09:08:27 <gmaxwell> (you need a consensus for naming in order to resolve zooko's triangle)
 576 2014-01-08 09:08:47 <gmaxwell> paavo: pgp doesn't appear to need a consensus. Seems to work okay without one today at least.
 577 2014-01-08 09:08:47 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: some how doing the PoW for this altchain would have to give you payment in bitcoins. Perhaps using bitcoin scripts (including disabled scripts) you could determine if a block was solved in this altchain
 578 2014-01-08 09:09:11 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: yea, maybe. (I note that the same mechenism we talked about for the 2-way-peg could accomplish that)
 579 2014-01-08 09:09:12 <justanotheruser> ofcourse that means someone would have to pay for this system to function
 580 2014-01-08 09:09:27 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: right which means you need to have a way to gather those funds.
 581 2014-01-08 09:09:30 <paavo> for example: store unique key alongside identity verification in blockchain
 582 2014-01-08 09:09:32 <gmaxwell> which excludes some applications.
 583 2014-01-08 09:09:51 <gmaxwell> paavo: thats not an application, its a mechenism. What goal do you hope to provide?
 584 2014-01-08 09:10:15 <paavo> decentralized voting for implementing general law
 585 2014-01-08 09:10:29 mitz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 586 2014-01-08 09:10:47 <paavo> an alternative to politician based lawmaking
 587 2014-01-08 09:11:18 <paavo> im hoping to generate blood flow in this area
 588 2014-01-08 09:11:27 <gmaxwell> paavo: see what I said before, I don't think voting is an application that you need or want any technology from bitcoin for... there is other neat technology for voting unrelated to bitcoin which people have been working on for 20 years.
 589 2014-01-08 09:11:46 <paavo> hmm i guess im impatient
 590 2014-01-08 09:11:48 <paavo> lol
 591 2014-01-08 09:11:53 <sipa> how do you prevent people from creating two identities, and voting twice?
 592 2014-01-08 09:11:53 <paavo> ok will go read some
 593 2014-01-08 09:12:08 <sipa> how do you prevent miners from censoring votes?
 594 2014-01-08 09:12:16 <paavo> i know thats a problem but blockchain did some remarkable things for trustless value
 595 2014-01-08 09:12:24 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I think people only look at the sorry state of current voting machines, not at all the research that other people did and didn't get actually implemented :/
 596 2014-01-08 09:12:44 <paavo> im continuing the optimistic thread
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 598 2014-01-08 09:12:54 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: why is namecoin a failure in that regard? They are $8 a piece. It costs significantly less than the block reward to merged mine them
 599 2014-01-08 09:13:28 <justanotheruser> paavo: even if you had this system running, a direct democracy usually doesn't work
 600 2014-01-08 09:13:38 <paavo> example?
 601 2014-01-08 09:14:13 <wumpus> it looks to me that at this stage the challenge is getting governments to adapt the ideas/technologies, not so much developing the ideas
 602 2014-01-08 09:14:25 <justanotheruser> paavo: I mean that on a national scale
 603 2014-01-08 09:15:15 <paavo> a general concensus is bad?
 604 2014-01-08 09:15:16 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: because the name database has been stuffed full of people mass registering like every typable string. Almost no one cares about it for name resolution, almost no one is using it for name resolution, e.g. it's just another litecoin right now.
 605 2014-01-08 09:15:34 <paavo> wumpus: its not about what governments want... its about what people want
 606 2014-01-08 09:15:40 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, cryptographic voting has basically nothing to do with the electronic voting machines that are deployed in the US at least.
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 608 2014-01-08 09:15:51 <justanotheruser> paavo: when you have 51% of people telling 49% of people what to do it is a problem.
 609 2014-01-08 09:16:08 <sipa> please no political discussion in hete
 610 2014-01-08 09:16:13 <sipa> in here
 611 2014-01-08 09:16:18 <paavo> when you have 1% of politicians telling 99% of people what to do thats a problem
 612 2014-01-08 09:16:19 <wumpus> gmaxwell: exactly...
 613 2014-01-08 09:16:24 <justanotheruser> #bitcoin-politics if you want to discuss this further
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 615 2014-01-08 09:16:47 <paavo> im not here to discus politics
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 617 2014-01-08 09:17:44 <sipa> regardless of that, i agree with gmaxwell that a blockchain is a completely wrong tool for dealing with voting
 618 2014-01-08 09:17:55 <paavo> i want ideas on generating unique internet identities that correlate to real human beings without double spend voting
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 620 2014-01-08 09:18:19 <sipa> you start off by having human identities
 621 2014-01-08 09:18:20 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: Is there a way to prevent the mass registration problem? Like making only 500 new domains registerable per day?
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 624 2014-01-08 09:18:55 <sipa> there is no need for the humongous overhead a blockchain adds if the jdentities are known in advance
 625 2014-01-08 09:19:21 <paavo> but imagine a baby is born... a unique ssn-like key is created
 626 2014-01-08 09:19:28 <paavo> thats their *voting key
 627 2014-01-08 09:19:33 <paavo> no one else can use it
 628 2014-01-08 09:19:41 <justanotheruser> paavo: who determines who controls their key?
 629 2014-01-08 09:19:50 <justanotheruser> and issues their key
 630 2014-01-08 09:19:55 <paavo> parents or given agency
 631 2014-01-08 09:20:01 <paavo> just like ssn
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 633 2014-01-08 09:20:19 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: NMC used fixed transaction fees, but then they got irritated with the pump and dumping and in the hardfork they upped the schedule for them to go down. That didn't stop the pump/dump much but it did encourage mass registration.
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 635 2014-01-08 09:21:00 <justanotheruser> "upped the schedule for them to go down." what?
 636 2014-01-08 09:21:02 <sipa> aaaaargh if you have an single (or few) known instances handing out the identities, what do you need a blockchain for?
 637 2014-01-08 09:21:28 <paavo> difficult to say
 638 2014-01-08 09:21:31 <sipa> people seem to see it as this solves-everything uncensorable data storage and communjcation system
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 640 2014-01-08 09:21:42 <paavo> this discussion probably more likely to take place in a few more decades
 641 2014-01-08 09:21:46 <sipa> it is horribly bad at those things
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 643 2014-01-08 09:22:01 <paavo> sipa dont be closed minded
 644 2014-01-08 09:22:03 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: they had a foo-flation schedule for the fixed fees to register a domain such that the cost went down over time. when they hardforked to add merged mining they changed it to make it go down much much faster.
 645 2014-01-08 09:22:12 <paavo> the possibility is there
 646 2014-01-08 09:22:13 <sipa> paavo: please
 647 2014-01-08 09:22:24 <sipa> of course the possibility is there
 648 2014-01-08 09:22:25 <paavo> there is a way for everything
 649 2014-01-08 09:22:31 <gmaxwell> paavo: it's not a "closed minded" thing, Bitcoin is very technically poor for those purposes.
 650 2014-01-08 09:22:33 <sipa> it just doesn't gain you anything
 651 2014-01-08 09:22:43 <paavo> im not talking about bitcoin
 652 2014-01-08 09:22:44 gogogo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 653 2014-01-08 09:22:50 <paavo> im talking about related technologies
 654 2014-01-08 09:22:59 <paavo> thought you people would be interesting to talk to
 655 2014-01-08 09:22:59 <gmaxwell> paavo: it's like saying why don't we do evoting via world of warcraft. Surely there is a way to accomplish that, but what did you gain?
 656 2014-01-08 09:22:59 <sipa> s/Bitcoin/blockchains/
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 659 2014-01-08 09:24:09 <paavo> ok you're right we shouldnt discus this
 660 2014-01-08 09:24:25 <paavo> let's forget solving problems
 661 2014-01-08 09:24:31 <paavo> its kinda hard rn
 662 2014-01-08 09:24:39 <paavo> so probably not worth it
 663 2014-01-08 09:24:48 <paavo> bye
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 665 2014-01-08 09:24:57 <sipa> being hard is a bad reason for not solving it
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 667 2014-01-08 09:25:10 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: seems silly to automatically lower the price of registration. You cannot predict that the price will rise over time, but that is the only reason I could see for lowing the price in namecoins for registration
 668 2014-01-08 09:26:01 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: well part of the idea was to help distribute the names in an economically efficient way by giving people willing the pay the most namecoins first dibbs.
 669 2014-01-08 09:26:26 <gmaxwell> if all people who ever would use namecoin all heard of it at once this might have been a pretty good strategy.
 670 2014-01-08 09:26:43 <gmaxwell> e.g. "we don't care what it's worth, when the price matches what you'll pay— then you get a name"
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 673 2014-01-08 09:27:35 <gmaxwell> other alternatives like starting an auction when someone tries to grab a name have other annoying failure modes.
 674 2014-01-08 09:27:36 <justanotheruser> seems like it would be better to set a registration limit to either a set number, or a value based on the transaction fee sum
 675 2014-01-08 09:27:51 <gmaxwell> this is really #wizards talk
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 677 2014-01-08 09:28:42 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: join -wizards. :P
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 716 2014-01-08 10:15:01 <wumpus> I'd really appreciate if some people helped testing https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3493, it makes initialization/shutdown user friendlier, and may solve the ubuntu menu issues due to timeouts
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 719 2014-01-08 10:16:34 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3494#issuecomment-31817423   <--- boost-1.54 upgrade seems to cause networking failures, relevant because bitcoin master has this now.
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 795 2014-01-08 11:44:47 <sipa> warren: the boost problem may be indirect, where somehow it maybe causes a deadlock in block processing or rpc, and the result is that p2p processing can't get a lock anymore
 796 2014-01-08 11:45:00 <sipa> warren: but the p2p code itself doesn't use anything boost at all, afaik
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 798 2014-01-08 11:46:57 <warren> sipa: I had similar thoughts
 799 2014-01-08 11:47:13 <warren> sipa: this is another one of those bugs that I can't reproduce on any machines i have access to
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 835 2014-01-08 12:33:10 <guysoft42> hey all, is there anyone that could guide me how to fix this qt dialog? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1629
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 844 2014-01-08 12:45:56 <wumpus> guysoft42: the dialog is already a lot different in master
 845 2014-01-08 12:46:06 <wumpus> guysoft42: so I suggest building master first
 846 2014-01-08 12:46:23 <wumpus> then decide whether there is still something to fix...
 847 2014-01-08 12:47:35 <sipa> also, the logic about determining the minimum relay fee is about to change significantly
 848 2014-01-08 12:48:06 <sipa> and about being able to bypass it: absolutely, but only when the client can actually deal with non-confirming transactions (which is a bug on its own, right now)
 849 2014-01-08 12:50:09 <wumpus> how would it ideally deal with non-confirming transactions?
 850 2014-01-08 12:50:20 <wumpus> time them out after a while and stop showing/broadcasting them?
 851 2014-01-08 12:50:59 <sipa> actually have a dependency graph of transactions in the wallet
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 853 2014-01-08 12:51:24 <sipa> and not consider them all ultimately valid, even if they conflict with eachother or with the blockchain
 854 2014-01-08 12:51:48 <wumpus> sure, but that would not get rid of non-confirming transactions
 855 2014-01-08 12:51:59 <sipa> it would make the client deal with it
 856 2014-01-08 12:52:12 <sipa> by being able to disable/delete them after some time
 857 2014-01-08 12:52:17 <wumpus> it would still be impossible to re-spend the coins held up in the non-confirming transaction, for example
 858 2014-01-08 12:52:38 <sipa> sorry, i'm thinking a step ahead
 859 2014-01-08 12:52:50 <sipa> the point is of course being able to delete transactions from the wallet
 860 2014-01-08 12:52:58 <sipa> or at least mark them inactive
 861 2014-01-08 12:53:04 <wumpus> right
 862 2014-01-08 12:53:22 <sipa> or even do so automatically if they are found to conflict with the blockchain
 863 2014-01-08 12:53:48 <sipa> right now, the data structures just don't allow that
 864 2014-01-08 12:54:00 <wumpus> yes, after doing double-spend detection of some kind
 865 2014-01-08 12:54:05 <sipa> as we keep a flag for each wallet txout to remember whether it is sprnt or not
 866 2014-01-08 12:54:29 <wumpus> another problem with the wallet data structures, add it to the list :/
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 868 2014-01-08 12:54:57 <sipa> that should just go away and be replaced with dependency analysis: if no active wallet tx exists that spends an IsMine() txout, it is available
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 870 2014-01-08 12:55:27 <wumpus> I'm more and more thinking that the best would be to entirely rewrite a wallet from scratch
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 872 2014-01-08 12:55:44 <wumpus> with new-fangled requirements for data structures, storage, determinism, etc
 873 2014-01-08 12:55:50 <sipa> yep
 874 2014-01-08 12:56:10 <sipa> with some modularization, it should not be hard to have both an old and a new wallet implementation
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 876 2014-01-08 12:57:00 <wumpus> yes, that was what, among other things, triggered my post-0.9 modularization idea
 877 2014-01-08 12:57:07 <sipa> i figured
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 879 2014-01-08 13:01:21 <sipa> now add a REST interface for everything non-wallet, and we can drop RPC too
 880 2014-01-08 13:01:43 <sipa> and start over with a clean wallet implementation and consistent interface to it...
 881 2014-01-08 13:01:46 <wumpus> indeed
 882 2014-01-08 13:03:22 <wumpus> and drop the 'accounts' functionality, everyone wants something else anyway, it should be a layer on top not part of the wallet
 883 2014-01-08 13:03:59 <sipa> if it is retained, it should be at least optional and not intermingled with something else (labels)
 884 2014-01-08 13:04:27 <wumpus> it's too confusing, people not only confuse it with labels, but also with groups of addresses and inputs
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 887 2014-01-08 13:05:06 <wumpus> multiwallet would be a better solution to most people's uses
 888 2014-01-08 13:05:14 <sipa> absolutely
 889 2014-01-08 13:05:38 <sipa> multiwallet should be much higher priority than anything that tries to replace accounts (if anything)
 890 2014-01-08 13:06:17 <sipa> also a current problem with the wallet interface is that there is really no middle ground
 891 2014-01-08 13:06:29 <wumpus>  multiwallet would be pretty easy to do even from the current starting point, biggest thing holding it back is the RPC interface (and how to handle the storage, right now all the wallets have to be in one directory because bdb)
 892 2014-01-08 13:06:43 <sipa> either you have coin tracking, tx construction, maintaining a ledger, ... done bitcoind
 893 2014-01-08 13:07:00 <sipa> or you do pretty much everything yourself using raw tx interface
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 897 2014-01-08 13:09:05 <wumpus> if the wallet would run in a seperate process, it'd be even easier to do multiwallet, just spin up multiple wallet daemons
 898 2014-01-08 13:10:10 <wumpus> they couldn't share a bdb environment in that case, but heh...
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 937 2014-01-08 13:46:21 <guysoft42> wumpus, will do :)
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 939 2014-01-08 13:47:45 <guysoft42> wumpus, i can't seem to get qmake to build, only bitcoin-cli any recent documents about how going around that?
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 943 2014-01-08 13:51:13 <wumpus> guysoft42: there is no qmake anymore in master, it's all based on autoconf
 944 2014-01-08 13:51:23 <wumpus> guysoft42: documentation is in doc/build-unix.md
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 990 2014-01-08 14:43:03 <nightlingo> guys... what is the best way to calculate the transaction fee ?
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1004 2014-01-08 15:03:04 <helo> nightlingo: i don't think anyone knows :/
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1006 2014-01-08 15:03:35 <CodeShark> yeah, it's actually one of the "harder" problems I've been facing in building wallets
1007 2014-01-08 15:03:37 <CodeShark> lol
1008 2014-01-08 15:03:57 <CodeShark> that and coin selection are probably the two least well-defined problems
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1010 2014-01-08 15:04:40 <CodeShark> as for setting a fee, at the very least make sure the transaction gets relayed by bitcoind
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1013 2014-01-08 15:05:13 <CodeShark> it might take a long time to confirm if the fee is very low but at least it will most likely confirm sooner or later
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1015 2014-01-08 15:07:19 <helo> it's a weird one-side-blind orderbook... it is easy to see ~all of the bids in the order book, but only individual miners know only their asks.
1016 2014-01-08 15:07:58 <guysoft42> wumpus, ok compiled bitcoin-qt from master, there is a huge "this is a pre-release build" warning. How do I test the the transfer dialog without messing up my wallet?
1017 2014-01-08 15:08:23 <sipa> guysoft42: use testnet?
1018 2014-01-08 15:08:35 <guysoft42> sipa, there is a test net?
1019 2014-01-08 15:08:41 <sipa> yes, run with -testnet
1020 2014-01-08 15:08:52 <sipa> and google for testnet faucet if you need some testnet coins
1021 2014-01-08 15:08:56 <guysoft42> sipa, oo its green :)
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1023 2014-01-08 15:10:51 <guysoft42> sipa, ok, no receive address and its syncing 83 weeks
1024 2014-01-08 15:12:08 <nightlingo> thanks guys
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1026 2014-01-08 15:12:38 <nightlingo> I was wodering...   can you see the transaction fees paid by inspecting the blockchain ?
1027 2014-01-08 15:12:44 <nightlingo> using bitcoind commands ?
1028 2014-01-08 15:13:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|nightlingo: Sort of
1029 2014-01-08 15:13:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It won't tell you the fee, but (if you have txindex on) you can subtract outputs from inputs to get the fee
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1031 2014-01-08 15:15:02 <nightlingo> oh so the formula is: I  sum up all the outputs of a transaction and subtract them from the sum of all the inputs ?
1032 2014-01-08 15:15:24 <Ry4an> s/them from/from them/
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1034 2014-01-08 15:15:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ry4an: no
1035 2014-01-08 15:15:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|nightlingo: yes
1036 2014-01-08 15:15:58 <nightlingo> cool thanks :)
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1041 2014-01-08 15:17:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So if a transaction spends an output of 100000000 satoshis and creates an output of 99900000 satoshis, that transaction has a fee of 100000 satoshis
1042 2014-01-08 15:20:30 <nightlingo> michagogo|cloud great :)
1043 2014-01-08 15:21:18 <Ry4an> ah, yeah, I misread.  Sorry :|
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1087 2014-01-08 16:10:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If a datadir is being used with v0.8.6, does running current git master make any changes that would make anything in the datadir incompatible with going back to v0.8.6?
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1093 2014-01-08 16:13:45 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: no
1094 2014-01-08 16:13:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, thanks.
1095 2014-01-08 16:13:54 <jgarzik> no
1096 2014-01-08 16:13:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(didn't think so...)
1097 2014-01-08 16:14:23 <sipa> if headersfirst goes it, the format will likely change
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1118 2014-01-08 16:29:53 <guysoft42> dont seem to be getting testnet coins from tpfaucet
1119 2014-01-08 16:30:45 <guysoft42> is there a way to view the testnet blockchain?
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1121 2014-01-08 16:32:29 <helo> i can give you some, send me your address
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1126 2014-01-08 16:43:45 <guysoft42> nevrmind, it came though. I am rich! now lets make a bug that will make me loose all the netcoins and become a legend
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1188 2014-01-08 18:06:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: hashrate is off your charts again
1189 2014-01-08 18:06:50 <gmaxwell> (and/or you've stopped updating, it can be hard to tell)
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1191 2014-01-08 18:07:19 <devrandom> maybe he likes it that way - "it's off the charts!" :)
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1236 2014-01-08 18:31:44 <sipa> "It's *LITERALLY* off the charts!!!!111"
1237 2014-01-08 18:32:05 <sipa> updating
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1246 2014-01-08 18:41:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, something just occurred to me re:coingen coins having Bitcoin's parameters and genesis block, with just magic bytes changed
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1248 2014-01-08 18:42:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'd been thinking that you could attack them by using linearize.py and just changing the bytes that it inserts
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1252 2014-01-08 18:42:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But another way just occurred to me
1253 2014-01-08 18:42:54 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: yes, this was discussed here or on -wizards yesterday
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1255 2014-01-08 18:43:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|maaku: I know
1256 2014-01-08 18:43:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|About 19-20 hours ago
1257 2014-01-08 18:43:47 <maaku> at the very least for any coin you can snag the first 4032 blocks
1258 2014-01-08 18:44:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I just realized you can do it by using the output of getblock to feed to submit block
1259 2014-01-08 18:44:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Talking about feeding the altcoin Bitcoin's chain)
1260 2014-01-08 18:44:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|also, I meat submitblock
1261 2014-01-08 18:44:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Autocorrect)
1262 2014-01-08 18:45:13 <maaku> yeah, that'd be easy to script up
1263 2014-01-08 18:45:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Meant*
1264 2014-01-08 18:45:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|A 1-liner, even
1265 2014-01-08 18:48:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(1..270000).each { |n| `altcoind submitblock #{`bitcoind getblock #{`bitcoind getblockhash #{n}`}`}`}
1266 2014-01-08 18:51:00 gjs278 has joined
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1272 2014-01-08 18:58:34 * jgarzik builds 0.8.6...  man, this build system is soooo ancient!
1273 2014-01-08 19:00:04 <sipa> it's cutting edge 1977 technolgy
1274 2014-01-08 19:01:13 <TheLordOfTime> heh
1275 2014-01-08 19:01:43 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1276 2014-01-08 19:01:49 <wumpus> autotools really works a lot better, I'm glad we made the switch
1277 2014-01-08 19:02:05 cads has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1278 2014-01-08 19:02:13 spinza has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1279 2014-01-08 19:02:15 <gmaxwell> heh our old make files had gnuisms, so we didn't even get the 1970s compatibility.
1280 2014-01-08 19:02:22 drayah has joined
1281 2014-01-08 19:02:57 cads has joined
1282 2014-01-08 19:03:06 <wumpus> make without gnuisms is even more masochistic
1283 2014-01-08 19:03:45 pangaea65536 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1284 2014-01-08 19:05:03 maraoz has joined
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1290 2014-01-08 19:09:46 <jgarzik> hrm
1291 2014-01-08 19:09:51 <jgarzik> wallet format changes in 0.9???
1292 2014-01-08 19:10:07 <jgarzik> 0.8.6 pukes on my git HEAD testnet wallet
1293 2014-01-08 19:11:14 spinza has joined
1294 2014-01-08 19:11:39 <wumpus> any messages in debug.log?
1295 2014-01-08 19:11:49 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1298 2014-01-08 19:13:47 <jgarzik> wumpus, none.  entire process stops with message about wallet.dat corruption to stderr
1299 2014-01-08 19:14:28 <jgarzik> it also stops with a message about block database corruption, and suggests -reindex, which I added.  wallet.dat complaint appeared after adding -reindex and restarting.
1300 2014-01-08 19:15:37 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1301 2014-01-08 19:15:45 d3p0rt3d has joined
1302 2014-01-08 19:16:01 * jgarzik wonders if old build system is suddenly picking up a different BDB
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1309 2014-01-08 19:17:22 <wumpus> if there are any wallet format changes they should be minor, certainly not result in loss of backward compatibility with 0.8.6
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1311 2014-01-08 19:17:39 <wumpus> yes, a BDB version conflict is most likely
1312 2014-01-08 19:19:08 <warren> jgarzik: there was a known format incompatibility a few months ago that was later fixed
1313 2014-01-08 19:20:09 asuk is now known as asuk|afk
1314 2014-01-08 19:20:09 <wumpus> from what I see: the 'purpose' was added for address book entries (a41d5fe01947f2f878c055670986a165af800f9a)
1315 2014-01-08 19:21:01 <wumpus> not sure if the wallet birthday stuff is already in 0.8.x
1316 2014-01-08 19:21:08 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1317 2014-01-08 19:21:09 asuk has quit (afk!~asuk@31.129.27.89|)
1318 2014-01-08 19:21:42 <sipa> jgarzik: did you run any headersfirst version at some point?
1319 2014-01-08 19:22:18 <jgarzik> sipa, yes, but not on this machine with this wallet
1320 2014-01-08 19:22:26 ahbritto has joined
1321 2014-01-08 19:23:11 <sipa> oh, the wallet problem and reindex problem are likely completely independent
1322 2014-01-08 19:24:25 spinza_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1323 2014-01-08 19:25:41 FabianB_ is now known as FabianB
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1326 2014-01-08 19:30:33 <warren> wumpus: wallet birthday was never in 0.8
1327 2014-01-08 19:30:33 Emcy has joined
1328 2014-01-08 19:30:46 <warren> wumpus: that came a bit after the first key refactor stuff, we didn't include that in litecoin
1329 2014-01-08 19:31:25 <jgarzik> sipa, agree
1330 2014-01-08 19:31:55 <jgarzik> anybody have any testnet coins?   mhHAk5xqRvApJD55ibMDjJLFaQSJ7etL94
1331 2014-01-08 19:32:28 <warren> jgarzik: I'm unable to run my testnet wallet because petertodd ruined it with too many tx
1332 2014-01-08 19:32:28 <matjeh> how many you want?
1333 2014-01-08 19:32:35 <warren> jgarzik: want this wallet.dat? =)
1334 2014-01-08 19:32:45 <jgarzik> ummm... 100 tBTC?
1335 2014-01-08 19:32:53 ahbritto has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1336 2014-01-08 19:33:12 <jgarzik> need several times 1.0 BTC, for testing around the decimal point
1337 2014-01-08 19:33:23 <maraoz> jgarzik: I just sent you 4 :P
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1341 2014-01-08 19:34:29 <jgarzik> maraoz, thanks
1342 2014-01-08 19:34:48 <jgarzik> warren, appreciated, but importing wallet.dat would seem unwise ATM :)
1343 2014-01-08 19:34:54 <matjeh> 5k on its way
1344 2014-01-08 19:35:13 <jgarzik> got it, I think I have plenty now :)
1345 2014-01-08 19:35:26 moarrr has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1351 2014-01-08 19:39:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik: if I were home, I could point my erupter at you for a block or two
1352 2014-01-08 19:39:59 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, were I at home, I would do same :)
1353 2014-01-08 19:40:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik: hmm, which machine are you on?
1354 2014-01-08 19:40:53 spinza has joined
1355 2014-01-08 19:41:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You could just mine a block or two on there
1356 2014-01-08 19:41:11 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1357 2014-01-08 19:41:16 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, at diff 256?
1358 2014-01-08 19:41:31 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, 4 threads on this OSX machine got nothing after a couple hours
1359 2014-01-08 19:41:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik: no, at diff 1
1360 2014-01-08 19:41:43 <matjeh> testnet is at diff 256 right now
1361 2014-01-08 19:41:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just set the clock ahead 20 mins
1362 2014-01-08 19:41:58 <jgarzik> heh
1363 2014-01-08 19:42:11 <jgarzik> dunno why I never thought of that
1364 2014-01-08 19:42:20 Emcy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1365 2014-01-08 19:42:57 <matjeh> michagogo|cloud: sounds like you've done this before :)
1366 2014-01-08 19:43:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|matjeh: indeed
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1368 2014-01-08 19:45:05 vigilyn_ is now known as vigilyn
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1371 2014-01-08 19:53:37 <jgarzik> curse you, fees!  I'm pissing away tnBTC like it's worthless, or something!
1372 2014-01-08 19:54:00 BenderCoin has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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1375 2014-01-08 19:55:25 <matjeh> i'm glad i messed up my raw transactions and sent a 50 BTC fee on testnet a few times before i did it live
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1380 2014-01-08 19:59:40 <lechuga__> does bfgminer care if its talking to a testnet node?
1381 2014-01-08 19:59:50 <helo> hooray! hear the opposite case much more often :)
1382 2014-01-08 19:59:51 <lechuga__> doesnt seem to afaict
1383 2014-01-08 20:00:04 coiners has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1384 2014-01-08 20:00:44 <matjeh> lechuga__: nope, but bitcoind cant keep up getwork responses if the hashrate is too fast for the diff
1385 2014-01-08 20:01:19 ConvivialMatt has quit (Quit: ConvivialMatt)
1386 2014-01-08 20:01:27 <lechuga__> k thx
1387 2014-01-08 20:01:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lechuga__: bfgminer works with testnet, yeah
1388 2014-01-08 20:01:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lechuga__: you may want to use gbt rather than get work
1389 2014-01-08 20:02:07 <lechuga__> im actually looking @ gbt specifically
1390 2014-01-08 20:02:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Do that by giving it the command-line option --coinbase-address
1391 2014-01-08 20:02:24 Kozuch has joined
1392 2014-01-08 20:02:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|addr, not address
1393 2014-01-08 20:02:36 <lechuga__> trying to figure it out, i get it but now im looking into details
1394 2014-01-08 20:02:48 SwampTony has joined
1395 2014-01-08 20:02:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lechuga__: it's also in the readme
1396 2014-01-08 20:03:02 <lechuga__> just to experiment i tried connecting to eligius' gbt interface but the replies seemed weird
1397 2014-01-08 20:03:17 <lechuga__> didn't seem to match what the code in bitcoind would do in response to a gbt
1398 2014-01-08 20:03:23 MobPhone has joined
1399 2014-01-08 20:03:28 <lechuga__> guess i need to connect to my testnet node and figure out why
1400 2014-01-08 20:03:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lechuga__: yeah, it won't match
1401 2014-01-08 20:03:59 <lechuga__> y not
1402 2014-01-08 20:04:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lechuga__: have you read the gbt BIP?
1403 2014-01-08 20:04:11 <lechuga__> not word for word
1404 2014-01-08 20:04:14 tromp__ has joined
1405 2014-01-08 20:04:20 <lechuga__> skimmed mostly
1406 2014-01-08 20:04:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Basically, it's a protocol
1407 2014-01-08 20:04:34 <lechuga__> nod
1408 2014-01-08 20:04:49 micronxd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1409 2014-01-08 20:04:58 <lechuga__> one discrepncy seemed to be that bitcoind looks liek it always returns a hash for each txn in the "transactions" list when it returns txns
1410 2014-01-08 20:05:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Pools will do it differently, use different parts of it, than a solo-mining node will
1411 2014-01-08 20:05:09 <lechuga__> but in these replies i only saw the "data" filled out
1412 2014-01-08 20:05:21 Gabit has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1413 2014-01-08 20:05:27 <lechuga__> k i better run this against my own node to figure it out better
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1419 2014-01-08 20:07:46 <lechuga__> this may seem like a noob question but are txns in a block always guarenteed to be in order when transmitting over the wire?
1420 2014-01-08 20:08:25 <CodeShark> the block message is defined such that this is the case
1421 2014-01-08 20:08:38 <CodeShark> (although the ordering is really done at the TCP layer, not at the wire layer)
1422 2014-01-08 20:11:11 <lechuga__> k
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1428 2014-01-08 20:13:08 <lechuga__> hmm
1429 2014-01-08 20:13:12 eristisk has joined
1430 2014-01-08 20:13:19 <lechuga__> but tcp will only guarentee the stream remains ordered
1431 2014-01-08 20:13:24 ap_ has joined
1432 2014-01-08 20:13:27 <lechuga__> a protocol rule would have to dictate they are written in order
1433 2014-01-08 20:13:37 ap_ has quit (Client Quit)
1434 2014-01-08 20:13:49 <lechuga__> was trying to find that protocol rule
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1440 2014-01-08 20:17:10 <maaku> lechuga__: it's just how the code works
1441 2014-01-08 20:18:00 <lechuga__> ok i guess its safe to assume it then
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1450 2014-01-08 20:26:06 <cr3pe> hi
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1452 2014-01-08 20:29:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lechuga__: if they're not in order, you have a different lock
1453 2014-01-08 20:30:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|A block's identity is its hash. If you reorder transactions, the data changes and the hash is different
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1456 2014-01-08 20:32:27 <lechuga__> well theoretically i coudl get the block message and all the txns could be out of order even though they were hashed in order
1457 2014-01-08 20:32:45 Grouver has joined
1458 2014-01-08 20:32:50 <lechuga__> just wondering if i needed ot be super anal and make sure the list returned was sorted
1459 2014-01-08 20:33:30 <lechuga__> also i didnt mean for that to be a declaratice statement
1460 2014-01-08 20:33:36 <lechuga__> it seems like that is theoretically possible
1461 2014-01-08 20:33:43 <lechuga__> declarative*
1462 2014-01-08 20:33:56 asuk has joined
1463 2014-01-08 20:35:27 <CodeShark> without any additional clues, the recipient of the block message wouldn't really know how to compute the merkle root for the transactions if the transactions weren't in order
1464 2014-01-08 20:36:00 <CodeShark> in other words, the ordering information is solely conveyed by the order in which they appear in the message
1465 2014-01-08 20:37:03 <lechuga__> heh yup
1466 2014-01-08 20:37:11 <lechuga__> just noticed there is no oredering information
1467 2014-01-08 20:37:24 <lechuga__> so it must be implciilty determined from order in the msg
1468 2014-01-08 20:37:25 <lechuga__> thx
1469 2014-01-08 20:37:35 <sipa> it is
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1471 2014-01-08 20:38:17 <lechuga__> trying to figure out how to merge txns from multiple gbt replies
1472 2014-01-08 20:38:26 <lechuga__> this issue seems to make it problematic
1473 2014-01-08 20:39:06 <CodeShark> merge transactions?
1474 2014-01-08 20:39:08 wei__ has joined
1475 2014-01-08 20:39:27 <lechuga__> lets say i talk to 2 different nodes and they give me gbt replies
1476 2014-01-08 20:39:44 <lechuga__> and i want to merge them both into my work set
1477 2014-01-08 20:39:48 <lechuga__> for mining
1478 2014-01-08 20:40:00 <lechuga__> the ordering issue seems like a problem
1479 2014-01-08 20:41:01 <lechuga__> liek if i want to take eligius' txns returned in gbt response
1480 2014-01-08 20:41:12 <lechuga__> and also incorporate bitminer's txns returned in a response to a gbt call to them
1481 2014-01-08 20:41:12 micronxd has joined
1482 2014-01-08 20:41:17 <CodeShark> if you're looking to construct your own blocks from transactions you get from peers, you might want to try getrawmempool
1483 2014-01-08 20:41:32 <lechuga__> but i thought this was sort of the point of gbt
1484 2014-01-08 20:41:52 <lechuga__> to dyanmically assemble block material
1485 2014-01-08 20:41:53 <CodeShark> the only strict requirements are that the coinbase transaction must be first and dependencies must come before dependents
1486 2014-01-08 20:42:07 <sipa> lechuga__: in the GBT response, the dependencies are given explicitly
1487 2014-01-08 20:42:12 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: uhhh and that there be no conflicts.
1488 2014-01-08 20:42:22 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: that goes without saying :p
1489 2014-01-08 20:42:34 <sipa> welll he just said it!
1490 2014-01-08 20:42:42 <gmaxwell> I would have thought dependencies must come before dependents would too. :P
1491 2014-01-08 20:43:09 <CodeShark> the ordering is arbitrary - but conflicts are not :)
1492 2014-01-08 20:43:27 <CodeShark> anyhow...
1493 2014-01-08 20:43:29 <lechuga__> dependencies must come before dependents = salient point
1494 2014-01-08 20:43:46 <CodeShark> I think it would be better to order them by hash :P
1495 2014-01-08 20:44:36 <lechuga__> ahh ok
1496 2014-01-08 20:44:43 <lechuga__> gbt does address this with "depends" field
1497 2014-01-08 20:45:16 <sipa> you must also make sure not to exceed the total max byte size (1000000) of the block, or the max sigops (20000, iirc)
1498 2014-01-08 20:45:41 <zone117x> can someone please provide me the latest json response from getblocktemplate? I'm testing out my node-stratum pool server
1499 2014-01-08 20:45:44 <CodeShark> that's not an ordering requirement - but yes, sipa :)
1500 2014-01-08 20:46:04 daybyter has joined
1501 2014-01-08 20:46:05 <CodeShark> and the inputs must connect and the signatures must be valid, yada yada :p
1502 2014-01-08 20:46:25 <CodeShark> outputs cannot exceed inputs
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1504 2014-01-08 20:46:58 <sipa> CodeShark: that's implied by GBT (well, as long as you trust the server)
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1506 2014-01-08 20:48:46 <lechuga__> this is cool i think i can totally merge these then
1507 2014-01-08 20:49:08 <sipa> that is a cool application actually, a GBT proxy that merges results from several GBT servers
1508 2014-01-08 20:49:21 <sipa> (you must also make sure their coinbase requirement don't contradict)
1509 2014-01-08 20:49:22 <lechuga__> i was doing it in libblkmaker per luke's suggestion
1510 2014-01-08 20:49:30 <lechuga__> right
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1564 2014-01-08 22:11:26 <lechuga__> zone117x: are u still looking for a getblocktemplate response example?
1565 2014-01-08 22:11:31 <lechuga__> i have one serialized if u want to see it
1566 2014-01-08 22:11:34 <lechuga__> from testnet
1567 2014-01-08 22:12:50 <lechuga__> http://www.onegrandcircle.com/~andy/gbt.txt
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