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  7 2014-01-10 00:09:48 <saizai> is there some way I can identify which of the payments to 1EVJyd8TbHBMUiMn6ogQ1PXbqoEZVp31Hz (if any) were made *not* using bitpay?
  8 2014-01-10 00:10:40 <gmaxwell> saizai: subpoena bitpay.
  9 2014-01-10 00:10:51 <saizai> short of that.
 10 2014-01-10 00:10:58 * saizai does not have subpoena powa
 11 2014-01-10 00:12:01 <gmaxwell> I'm not aware of any technial measure. Ask the owner of that key to please tell you kindly?
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 13 2014-01-10 00:12:11 <saizai> I'd like to be able to point to something and say "look this probably didn't go through https://stockman2014.com/bitcoin-donation but instead from someone who saw http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-stockman-is-accepting-bitcoins-2014-1 or http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1u53yf/congressman_steve_stockman_accepting_btc_at/ "
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 16 2014-01-10 00:12:36 <saizai> which in turn'd mean he got btc that wasn't identified
 17 2014-01-10 00:12:49 <saizai> which is illegal
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 19 2014-01-10 00:12:56 <saizai> and would be a useful example for me to point to about how you can't prevent someone from sending you bitcoin anonymously
 20 2014-01-10 00:13:13 <saizai> … especially if you pose for a photo op w/ a giant bitcoin QR on you
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 23 2014-01-10 00:13:47 <justanotheruser> Does bitpay pay USD->BTC or just BTC->USD?
 24 2014-01-10 00:14:35 <saizai> not sure
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 26 2014-01-10 00:15:22 <pigeons> they only process bitcoin payments from the end user. they dont process usd payments
 27 2014-01-10 00:15:38 <gmaxwell> saizai: certantly you can just ignore payments you weren't expecting.
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 35 2014-01-10 00:23:11 <saizai_> bah, shitty connection
 36 2014-01-10 00:23:14 <saizai_> gmaxwell: not under FEC law.
 37 2014-01-10 00:23:25 <saizai_> PACs can't possess bitcoins they don't have donor info for
 38 2014-01-10 00:23:36 <saizai_> and have to get rid of such things w/in a small number of days
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 43 2014-01-10 00:24:52 <gmaxwell> saizai_: who says they possess it if they'll never spend it?  I suppose the obvious thing to do if you're workeed about 'possess' is to just instantly convert any unexpected payments to fees.
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 57 2014-01-10 00:34:36 <saizai_> gmaxwell: actually that'd be doubly illegal
 58 2014-01-10 00:34:50 <saizai_> that'd be an expenditure to anonymous third party
 59 2014-01-10 00:34:52 <saizai_> by a PAC
 60 2014-01-10 00:34:57 <saizai_> so not ok.
 61 2014-01-10 00:35:06 <saizai_> anyway I'll come back when I'm on a stable connection
 62 2014-01-10 00:35:09 <saizai_> this uplink sucks.
 63 2014-01-10 00:35:40 <saizai_> but yeah, I'd appreciate if anyone could lmk if any of those transactions to 1EVJyd8TbHBMUiMn6ogQ1PXbqoEZVp31Hz could be shown to not be via bitpay without having to subpoena them
 64 2014-01-10 00:35:54 <saizai_> (I did send them a nice email asking if they'd mind confirming, but they may not respond)
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110 2014-01-10 01:35:20 <justanotheruser> Why does the scripts page say the standard tx script is scriptPubKey: OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG, shouldn't it be scriptPubKey: OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKey> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG?
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113 2014-01-10 01:36:15 <gmaxwell> because it's the pubkeyhash that is in the pay-to-pubkey hash transaction.
114 2014-01-10 01:36:21 <gmaxwell> the pubkey is in the scriptSig
115 2014-01-10 01:37:46 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: but it doesn't become the pubkeyhash until OP_HASH160 is run, does it?
116 2014-01-10 01:37:53 <gmaxwell> so the stack sequence is sig pubkey->dup-> sig pubkey pubkey -> hash160->  sig pubkey pubkeyhash -> equalverify -> sig pubkey -> checksig
117 2014-01-10 01:38:15 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: the value in the scriptPubkey is what its getting compared to
118 2014-01-10 01:38:22 <gmaxwell> imagine the stack machine operating in your head.
119 2014-01-10 01:38:46 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i've found very few people can think that way
120 2014-01-10 01:38:54 <phantomcircuit> no offense to you justanotheruser
121 2014-01-10 01:39:03 <phantomcircuit> but you might be better off with pen/paper
122 2014-01-10 01:40:01 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: so is the scriptsig automatically loaded into the stack?
123 2014-01-10 01:40:09 <justanotheruser> scriptSig: <sig> <pubKey>
124 2014-01-10 01:40:41 <gmaxwell> yes, you can imagine it evaluating   ScriptSig | ScriptPubKey as if they were just concatinated.
125 2014-01-10 01:40:59 <gmaxwell> (thats originally how it was implemented too, but that resulted in some ... unfortunate ... behavior)
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128 2014-01-10 01:41:24 <justanotheruser> wait, why would the two items be concatonated?
129 2014-01-10 01:41:52 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: scriptSig is pushing things onto the stack.
130 2014-01-10 01:42:07 <gmaxwell> scriptSig: contains PUSH(sig) PUSH(pubKey)
131 2014-01-10 01:43:12 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: is scriptsig the only way to push stuff onto the stack?
132 2014-01-10 01:43:29 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: no the pubkey pushes things onto the stack too.
133 2014-01-10 01:43:34 <tiyoT> quick question, is there a software/api/protocol exist out there that can trigger something when particular btc address (eg our own) receive payment. Eg, tell my website php script to add +100gil to User1 when my btc address receive 0.1 btc.
134 2014-01-10 01:43:57 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: e.g. in your example pubKeyHash is getting pushed onto the stack.
135 2014-01-10 01:43:58 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: so the purpose of scriptsig is to push stuff onto the stack without modifying the transaction that is signed, no?
136 2014-01-10 01:44:04 <jakov> tiyoT you can poll something on blockchain.info
137 2014-01-10 01:44:16 <jakov> but better / more elegant would be to run bitcoind
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139 2014-01-10 01:45:25 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: You can think of a transaction input as having a single script that must evaluate to true.  The script is formed as "ScriptSig | ScriptPubKey".  the latter is provided by the coin being spent, the former by the spending transaction.
140 2014-01-10 01:46:08 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: the normal usage has the scriptSig push 'stuff' onto the stack, which then code in the scriptpubkey checks and accepts if and only if it likes it.
141 2014-01-10 01:47:13 <tiyoT> jakov: bitcoind only allow as relay right? it didnt have the authority to spend the bitcoin etc... just to watch for activity, when it happen, it relay to the php script in my website
142 2014-01-10 01:47:37 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: that is pretty elegant
143 2014-01-10 01:48:01 <jakov> tiyoT provided the private keys were not on your server nobody would be able to spend from those addresses
144 2014-01-10 01:48:10 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: it's been slightly broken in bitcoin because uh there was an opcode that was basically return true;  ... (OP_RETURN) ... and someone realized you could put it in scriptSig ...
145 2014-01-10 01:48:18 <jakov> bitcoind would be a node and watch as transactions are broadcast
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147 2014-01-10 01:48:42 <tiyoT> ok, so i need to find coder that are verse in bitcoind
148 2014-01-10 01:48:53 <tiyoT> jakov: whats your coding background?
149 2014-01-10 01:49:10 fcmatt has joined
150 2014-01-10 01:49:28 <jakov> im not available for employment if thats what you're offering
151 2014-01-10 01:49:29 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: Can't you have a non-empty stack and a tx evaluate to true without OP_RETURN? Or is the problem not the stack being non-empty?
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153 2014-01-10 01:50:06 <jakov> too busy : )
154 2014-01-10 01:50:26 <jakov> you could try /r/jobs4bitcoin or the bitcointalk forum or around the irc
155 2014-01-10 01:50:28 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: It prevented the scriptPubkey from ever running.  Normally, e.g. in a pay-to-hash160 transaction there are *VERIFY opcodes which will abort execution if the spend isn't authorized.
156 2014-01-10 01:52:24 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: but if you make a transaction with OP_RETURN you don't have to do any verification. I don't understand the problem?
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158 2014-01-10 01:53:24 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: I'm saying the scriptSig could contain it.
159 2014-01-10 01:53:37 <tiyoT> jakov: perhaps you can recommend me some names .. ?
160 2014-01-10 01:53:59 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: so you have a txout with scripPubKey: OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG   and then someone comes along and signs for it with .. OP_RETURN
161 2014-01-10 01:54:17 <jakov> tiyoT i dont know im afraid, i actually havent been around here that long
162 2014-01-10 01:54:28 <gmaxwell>  so then the composite script is OP_RETURN OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG   which evaluated to true and the spend was permitted.
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164 2014-01-10 01:54:44 <jakov> best of luck finding someone, i dont think it should be a problem since bitcoin is swarming with techie coders
165 2014-01-10 01:54:51 <justanotheruser> oh, so you have an exception for OP_RETURN? Like OP_RETURN can't be in the scriptsig or something?
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167 2014-01-10 01:56:14 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: well so OP_RETURN was changed to return false;  and then the script execution was split so that ScriptSig executes and then ScriptPubKey executes with the stack carried across.
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171 2014-01-10 01:58:27 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: Why do you say "it's been slightly broken". Isn't it "it was broken"?
172 2014-01-10 01:59:04 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: I mean we degraded the elegance.
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177 2014-01-10 02:01:45 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: was OP_RETURN ever abused?
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179 2014-01-10 02:02:11 <gmaxwell> on testnet
180 2014-01-10 02:02:14 <gmaxwell> never on mainnet
181 2014-01-10 02:03:33 <warren> Never Gonna Give You Up
182 2014-01-10 02:04:02 <gmaxwell> We're not strangers to bugs
183 2014-01-10 02:04:31 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: was that given an alert for upgrade?
184 2014-01-10 02:05:50 <gmaxwell> Before my time.
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210 2014-01-10 02:41:34 <warren> gmaxwell: have you tried to build 0.8 on fedora 20?
211 2014-01-10 02:41:42 <warren> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lboost_filesystem-mt
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215 2014-01-10 02:42:48 <warren> gmaxwell: oh ... BOOST_LIB_SUFFIX=-mt is no longer needed on Fedora 20
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263 2014-01-10 12:49:05 <warren> after my lastest PR was included in Bitcoin I received mail (spam?) saying "You received a tip for your commit"
264 2014-01-10 12:49:10 <warren> it wants me to click on links
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266 2014-01-10 12:51:18 <lianj> warren: thats normal
267 2014-01-10 12:51:32 <warren> so this is legit?
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280 2014-01-10 12:57:09 <alex_fun> is there plan to develop de centralised checkpoints system that are self propagating every x amount of blocks?
281 2014-01-10 12:57:14 <alex_fun> based on the longest chain
282 2014-01-10 12:57:50 <gmaxwell> Yes, it's called a block, each block authenticates all the ones prior to it.
283 2014-01-10 12:58:00 <alex_fun> well I know this one
284 2014-01-10 12:58:20 <alex_fun> gmaxwell: but what if gov  confiscates github?
285 2014-01-10 12:58:41 <alex_fun> if checkpoints are distributed in some p2p fashion then its safer
286 2014-01-10 12:58:44 <alex_fun> imo
287 2014-01-10 12:59:10 <warren> alex_fun: yeah, especially great when a single person controls those checkpoints with a private key
288 2014-01-10 12:59:14 <gmaxwell> alex_fun: there if no fundimental need for "checkpoints" at all, hopefully we'll remove them in the next release or the one after (or at least diminish their role)
289 2014-01-10 12:59:32 <warren> gmaxwell: what would "diminish their role" look like?
290 2014-01-10 13:00:20 <fanquake> warren I Just got that same email.
291 2014-01-10 13:00:22 <gmaxwell> warren: headers first basically eliminates all the DOS oriented reasons for having them completely.
292 2014-01-10 13:00:34 <warren> fanquake: is it legit?
293 2014-01-10 13:00:39 <fanquake> Got 0.00023858 btc apparently
294 2014-01-10 13:00:47 <warren> whoa
295 2014-01-10 13:00:57 <warren> just think how many dogecoin I could buy with that
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297 2014-01-10 13:01:00 <fanquake> Yes legit as far as I can tell, although you can't withdraw unless your balance is > 0.001
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299 2014-01-10 13:02:00 <fanquake> See http://tip4commit.com/projects/2, the bitcoin.bitcoin repo currently has a "tip balance" of 0.023 btc
300 2014-01-10 13:02:07 <fanquake> *bitcoin/bitcoin
301 2014-01-10 13:02:24 <alex_fun> warren yes I see what u saying when its time to take next checkpoint which node got to do it, I suggest its random node within longest chain
302 2014-01-10 13:03:00 <gmaxwell> warren: sipa and I are thinking that ECDSA could be gated based on having >30 or >60 days of cumuulative work in between the best chain over the current block vs the best known fork... which should work well once the hashrate growth stablizes.
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306 2014-01-10 13:04:17 <alex_fun> gmaxwell:  if checkpoints are removed then btc depends on goodwill of largest pools
307 2014-01-10 13:04:32 <alex_fun> as they can double spend in theory
308 2014-01-10 13:04:43 puzl has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
309 2014-01-10 13:05:07 <gmaxwell> alex_fun: you misunderstand how bitcoin works, but nothing new there.
310 2014-01-10 13:05:19 <warren> alex_fun: here's where you hail your dear leader sunnyking?
311 2014-01-10 13:06:58 <alex_fun> emm?
312 2014-01-10 13:07:16 <alex_fun> warren: I like many people including you
313 2014-01-10 13:07:16 <alex_fun> :)
314 2014-01-10 13:07:18 <gmaxwell> (also, how did you get back in here, you're still banned)
315 2014-01-10 13:07:29 <alex_fun> as to sunny I am even yet to talk to him
316 2014-01-10 13:07:39 <alex_fun> I just came to ask on topic questions
317 2014-01-10 13:07:43 <alex_fun> very simple :)
318 2014-01-10 13:08:12 <gmaxwell> in any case, checkpoints close of some corner case dos attacks which are better solved other ways, they don't have anything to do with pools.
319 2014-01-10 13:08:16 <gmaxwell> or double spending.
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321 2014-01-10 13:09:53 <alex_fun> gmaxwell:  well if you plan to remove checkpoints completely then largest pools provided they got way over 51% can re solve earier blocks and double spend right?
322 2014-01-10 13:10:04 <gmaxwell> (DOS attacks like flooding a node with diff 1 blocks forked from early on which the node then forced to store just in case they form a chain that eventually overtakes. Checkpoints lets it just ignore them.)
323 2014-01-10 13:10:22 <alex_fun> yes thats handy
324 2014-01-10 13:10:25 <warren> "Ghash.io has voluntary to suspend parts of service!"    ... split into a secret pool and change nothing more likely.
325 2014-01-10 13:10:37 T19EL has joined
326 2014-01-10 13:10:47 <alex_fun> ghash io prices are high anyway
327 2014-01-10 13:11:01 <gmaxwell> alex_fun: no, "51%" can only rewrite the history eventually if they keep that for up to infinite time.
328 2014-01-10 13:11:20 <gmaxwell> the further back it goes the longer it takes.
329 2014-01-10 13:11:31 <alex_fun> yes as per satoshi formula
330 2014-01-10 13:11:55 <alex_fun> so hmm why they where there in a first place
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332 2014-01-10 13:12:01 <gmaxwell> Satoshi didn't give a formula for the time until overtaking, he assumed the attack goes on for infinite time.
333 2014-01-10 13:12:02 <alex_fun> maybe they do have some value :)
334 2014-01-10 13:12:35 <gmaxwell> they close off those dos attacks, as mentioned,  and later were employed to triggers some other performance shortcuts.
335 2014-01-10 13:13:08 <warren> gmaxwell: http://tip4commit.com/projects  looks like you could get a large tip by fixing peercoin's 'myths'
336 2014-01-10 13:13:14 <Subo1977_> hi, is there a timeframe for 0.9 release?
337 2014-01-10 13:13:57 <alex_fun> gmaxwell: seems like they copied devcoin mark idea only ok they pay with btc :D
338 2014-01-10 13:15:30 <gmaxwell> (and its not like a reorg back six months would be any less fatal than a complete rewrite)
339 2014-01-10 13:16:14 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
340 2014-01-10 13:17:21 <alex_fun> reorg happpens when there is two or more large forks?
341 2014-01-10 13:17:37 <alex_fun> and then some blocks are orphaned
342 2014-01-10 13:19:06 <fanquake> warren I'm thinking about just making a commit so that my balance is withdrawable :P
343 2014-01-10 13:19:13 orperelman has joined
344 2014-01-10 13:19:20 <alex_fun> but why is it deadly? it just causes some orphans
345 2014-01-10 13:19:45 <alex_fun> or reorg aka rewrite back 6 months
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348 2014-01-10 13:21:33 <lifeofcray> hey, do you guys know of any gambling scripts that's open source for bitcoin?
349 2014-01-10 13:21:35 <lifeofcray> or any good sites for open source projects in general
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351 2014-01-10 13:22:10 <alex_fun> lifeofcray: there might be but some got security holes
352 2014-01-10 13:22:26 <alex_fun> ok time to catch bus
353 2014-01-10 13:22:26 <alex_fun> :D
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383 2014-01-10 13:55:14 <justusranvier> Question: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181734.msg4429223#msg4429223
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492 2014-01-10 16:55:20 <saizai> gmaxwell: so as I was saying earlier re 1EVJyd8TbHBMUiMn6ogQ1PXbqoEZVp31Hz — PACs can't legally possess an in-kind contribution that's not from an identified source
493 2014-01-10 16:55:34 <saizai> in any amount
494 2014-01-10 16:55:51 <saizai> promising not to spend it isn't enough, they have to get rid of it to a charity
495 2014-01-10 16:56:16 <saizai> and not e.g. as a possible payment to someone (like fees to a miner they might be collaborating with)
496 2014-01-10 16:56:31 ralphtheninja has quit (Quit: leaving)
497 2014-01-10 16:56:36 <saizai> hence my wanting to see if any payments to that didn't go through bitpay
498 2014-01-10 16:57:18 <saizai> a solid example of "look, you can't refuse bitcoin payments, bad things under FEC rules will happen if you don't adopt our framework for handling it" woudl be very useful
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510 2014-01-10 17:10:25 <sipa> justusranvier: the only reason to not do that is that it requires a hard fork
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520 2014-01-10 17:28:59 <lechuga__> i wonder what some of the more prominent bitcoin devs did before bitcoin
521 2014-01-10 17:29:07 TD is now known as TD[gone]
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523 2014-01-10 17:29:55 <lechuga__> i dont think ive seen any serious media articles on the core devs
524 2014-01-10 17:30:10 <lechuga__> although i wonder if nondevs would even be interested in that
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533 2014-01-10 17:45:27 <helo> the only dev i've seen referred to is the nakamoto ghost
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535 2014-01-10 17:47:23 <lechuga__> which seems wrong to me
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539 2014-01-10 17:58:53 <helo> i agree. the devs are my primary reason for ignoring altcoins.
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541 2014-01-10 17:59:48 <sipa> ?
542 2014-01-10 18:02:01 <lechuga__> helo: what do u mean?
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545 2014-01-10 18:04:11 <rfree> how would one change rule like target block rate/hour, but apply it depending on the block numbe
546 2014-01-10 18:04:13 <helo> lechuga__: bitcoin core devs are great. altcoin devs are ... generally different
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548 2014-01-10 18:04:36 <lechuga__> ic
549 2014-01-10 18:05:19 <sipa> rfree: when retargetting, take the block number into account
550 2014-01-10 18:05:29 <sipa> also, this is not #altcoin-dev
551 2014-01-10 18:05:39 <rfree> sipa: recall keyword or funcion name?
552 2014-01-10 18:06:09 <rfree> sipa: well, could your master race anyway discuss how BITCOIN code does work, without unneeded hint of unfriendliness? ;)
553 2014-01-10 18:06:17 <lianj> wonder why testnet is so busy lately
554 2014-01-10 18:06:55 <lechuga__> people are testing? :)
555 2014-01-10 18:07:06 <rfree> on a related for the bitcoin topic: perhaps one day, after some block number, bitcoin could consider adding PoS reward system
556 2014-01-10 18:07:13 <sipa> hell no
557 2014-01-10 18:07:34 <rfree> because that would be a change of past constant promise, or because PoS is generally bad idea?
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559 2014-01-10 18:08:13 <rfree> e.g. if bitcoin would have PoS from start, then should it
560 2014-01-10 18:08:19 <sipa> in general, such a change is way too invasive for the economic model imho to ever be considered
561 2014-01-10 18:08:44 <sipa> (independent of whether it's a good idea or not, such a change could only be made if the alternative is imminent failure)
562 2014-01-10 18:08:55 <rfree> so it's about the *change* ok. And other then that, do you think PoS could help save bitcoin for 51% attacks or make them harder?
563 2014-01-10 18:09:26 <pjorrit> doest pos have its own 51p's
564 2014-01-10 18:10:11 <helo> assuming PoS is viable, it could make a 51% via chip fabrication more difficult. but it has its own problems...
565 2014-01-10 18:10:25 <sipa> rfree: in addition, all (pure) proof of work systems i know of actually fail to guarantee convergence
566 2014-01-10 18:10:47 <sipa> that's not to say that other ways are possible, or that a combination of PoW and PoS isn't viable
567 2014-01-10 18:10:54 <sipa> *are not possible
568 2014-01-10 18:11:16 <helo> sipa: did you mean "all (pure) proof of stake systems"?
569 2014-01-10 18:11:30 <sipa> yes!
570 2014-01-10 18:11:51 <sipa> with the added qualifier "that i know of"
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572 2014-01-10 18:12:21 <pjorrit> but that's implied
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579 2014-01-10 18:18:34 <lechuga__> PoS just feels wrong
580 2014-01-10 18:18:45 <lechuga__> although i have no idea how it would actually pan out in practice
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582 2014-01-10 18:21:49 <rfree> I ment WoS+PoS of course, not one alone
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585 2014-01-10 18:22:37 <rfree> well if "adversary" is able to both controll MOST of the current hardware, and MOST of the coins... well, then he trully does "own" the currency (but that's in his worst interst - people will turn away and he will lose long-term)
586 2014-01-10 18:23:34 <rfree> about the GHash 51%, is there any plan how to make this more avoidable in future?
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590 2014-01-10 18:25:09 <lechuga__> making p2pool easier to adopt, extending GBT to allow txns sourced from miner-selected srcs
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592 2014-01-10 18:25:39 <pjorrit> that's not allowed in gbt? i thought that was its spiel
593 2014-01-10 18:25:52 <lechuga__> its allowed and what luke designed it for
594 2014-01-10 18:25:59 <lechuga__> but the functionality isnt there atm
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596 2014-01-10 18:26:39 <pjorrit> it's not available on the miner side you mean?
597 2014-01-10 18:26:44 <lechuga__> right
598 2014-01-10 18:27:05 <lechuga__> i mean miners support gbt but not abritrarily choosing txns
599 2014-01-10 18:27:47 <lechuga__> there may be other mitigation plans in the works but those r the 2 prominent ones in my understanding
600 2014-01-10 18:27:48 <pjorrit> yea alright
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632 2014-01-10 19:28:55 <linagee_> is there a good way to monitor a lot of bitcoin addresses?
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634 2014-01-10 19:29:05 <linagee_> (lets say... thousands, every second?)
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643 2014-01-10 19:40:38 <lechuga__> monitor how?
644 2014-01-10 19:40:48 <andytoshi> linagee_: http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/bitcoin-faq.pdf
645 2014-01-10 19:40:59 groglogic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
646 2014-01-10 19:41:02 <andytoshi> maybe will correct whatever mistake makes you think "monitor thousands of addresses per second" makes sense
647 2014-01-10 19:42:28 nl00h has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
648 2014-01-10 19:43:16 <jcorgan> linagee_ probably means "monitor incoming TXes for outputs that pay to an addresses in a list that could potentially be thousands in size"
649 2014-01-10 19:43:33 Lexa has quit (Quit: Quit)
650 2014-01-10 19:43:56 <Eagle[TM]> linagee: chainsnort?
651 2014-01-10 19:44:00 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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653 2014-01-10 19:44:46 <linagee_> andytoshi: thanks. I just emailed mike from bitcoinmonitor.net my idea. (bitcoin alert by phone)
654 2014-01-10 19:45:17 <linagee_> er, by voice over phone. (kind of need to clarify that in today's world of everything mobile. heh.)
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656 2014-01-10 19:46:19 <jcorgan> afaict none of the common wallets are event driven in the sense that you can have, say, bitcoind notify some other software when something happens.
657 2014-01-10 19:46:28 <linagee_> some old mom/pop shops don't have mobile phones let alone internet at their business and I think it would be neat to enable them to accept bitcoin. (this is assuming they have a desktop/laptop elsewhere where they can manipulate the funds.)
658 2014-01-10 19:46:33 <jcorgan> you have to poll the RPC interface in a loop
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660 2014-01-10 19:47:00 <lechuga__> why would monitoring txns for some subset of addresses help with that problem
661 2014-01-10 19:47:27 <andytoshi> jcorgan: bitcoind has an event-driven interface
662 2014-01-10 19:47:29 nl00h has joined
663 2014-01-10 19:47:40 <jcorgan> though ISTR that someone had put it zeromq queues in, which would be really nice
664 2014-01-10 19:47:42 <andytoshi> bitcoind --help | grep notify
665 2014-01-10 19:47:46 <linagee_> lechuga__: so I could run a business where they hand me a bunch of public addresses, I monitor them all for them, and report via phonecall when a txn happens. :) (along with some sort of OTP code that they also have on paper or something.
666 2014-01-10 19:48:23 <linagee_> lechuga__: this is to be one step better than hanging a static QR code in the business and then just telling people "there's my code! now pay me!" (argh.... vendors gonna get burnt.)
667 2014-01-10 19:48:46 <andytoshi> it's not one step better, address reuse is stupid regardless of mechanism
668 2014-01-10 19:48:56 prepost has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
669 2014-01-10 19:48:58 <linagee_> andytoshi: no, no. I do think its incredibly stupid of them to do that.
670 2014-01-10 19:49:11 <linagee_> andytoshi: but - they could easily solve that problem with a notepad of public addresses. :)
671 2014-01-10 19:49:16 prepost has joined
672 2014-01-10 19:49:38 <andytoshi> ??? how would that discourage address reuse?
673 2014-01-10 19:49:52 <andytoshi> how does that not encourage address reuse, even?
674 2014-01-10 19:50:12 <linagee_> andytoshi: one person pays to the address, you tear off the sheet from the notepad, staple that to the receipt for recordkeeping (or throw it in the trash) and then the next QR code is there and ready. :)
675 2014-01-10 19:50:54 <andytoshi> linagee_: haha! very creative
676 2014-01-10 19:51:08 <andytoshi> like a physical 'getnewaddress'
677 2014-01-10 19:51:12 <helo> just keep a tight chain of control/surveillance of the notepad
678 2014-01-10 19:51:23 <linagee_> andytoshi: the phone service would also accept inbound calls to handle "I want to charge $4.50" and then it spits back out at you "0.01 BTC" (for instance, I didn't do the math.)
679 2014-01-10 19:51:32 <linagee_> helo: indeed.
680 2014-01-10 19:51:44 <linagee_> helo: actually, it wouldn't matter that much. :)
681 2014-01-10 19:51:46 <andytoshi> ok, i sorta see what you're going for here..
682 2014-01-10 19:51:56 pooler has joined
683 2014-01-10 19:51:57 <andytoshi> linagee_: people might replace the notepad
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686 2014-01-10 19:51:59 <linagee_> helo: the first time someone pays and they don't get a phonecall back, they'll be like "hrm!!"
687 2014-01-10 19:52:06 <lechuga__> so how do they generate the key pairs for th enotepad
688 2014-01-10 19:52:09 <andytoshi> "hrm!!" doesn't get the money back
689 2014-01-10 19:52:22 <linagee_> granted that would suck, even for one vendor txn, but not like they can be totally screwed over.
690 2014-01-10 19:52:40 <jcorgan> interesting idea for bip00032 based address generation
691 2014-01-10 19:53:15 <jcorgan> the notebook would be m/N'/0/i, where each notebook would be a different N and each sheet would be a different i
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693 2014-01-10 19:53:23 <linagee_> lechuga__: either I totally "bot" a coinbase account for them (after some legal contract allowing me to), or they handle coinbase themselves and via maybe some sort of CSV export or something... (not even sure if that exists)
694 2014-01-10 19:53:47 <linagee_> or I contact coinbase and try to whitelabel them with an actual stamp of approval from them. :)
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696 2014-01-10 19:54:19 <lechuga__> interesting idea for less developed parts of the world
697 2014-01-10 19:54:24 <linagee_> lechuga__: hahahaha
698 2014-01-10 19:54:32 <linagee_> lechuga__: uhm.... lots of places in the US actually. :)
699 2014-01-10 19:54:43 <lechuga__> i guess i believe that too
700 2014-01-10 19:55:06 <linagee_> lechuga__: lots of stores around me they have just a cheap IBM cash register that's nothing more than a large calculator, receipt printer, and cash drawer. no network connection.
701 2014-01-10 19:55:25 <lechuga__> the majority dont also have smartphone sin their pockets?
702 2014-01-10 19:55:29 <linagee_> lechuga__: not saying they couldn't/shouldn't upgrade. I'm saying when you tell some of these people $50/mo just for mobile service they get wide eyed. :)
703 2014-01-10 19:55:49 <jcorgan> i suppose that is the polar opposite of all the coffee shops around here that have iPads in stylish holders with square, hanging off LTE
704 2014-01-10 19:55:58 <linagee_> lechuga__: eh. it differs. and this is for one niche. but not by any means a non-existant niche. :)
705 2014-01-10 19:56:04 <lechuga__> god my local coffee shop uses square
706 2014-01-10 19:56:05 <lechuga__> drives me insane
707 2014-01-10 19:56:07 Lexa has quit (Quit: Quit)
708 2014-01-10 19:56:09 <linagee_> lechuga__: same here...
709 2014-01-10 19:56:28 <lechuga__> swiping my stupid card for coffee
710 2014-01-10 19:56:38 saizai has quit (Quit: saizai)
711 2014-01-10 19:56:41 <lechuga__> sometimes 5x before it take sit because debit cards r so cheaply constructed
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716 2014-01-10 19:57:17 <lechuga__> wish credit/debit cards would die
717 2014-01-10 19:57:17 <linagee_> jcorgan: coffee shop near me has square. obviously they'd be better served by a bitpay or coinbase app. but the mexican restaurant down the street has one of these "dummy" type registers. :)
718 2014-01-10 19:57:58 <jcorgan> all the taxi drivers in my city use square, the transaction fees are *way* less then if they go through the taxi companies official CC service.
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720 2014-01-10 19:58:09 <lechuga__> isnt square liek 2.5%
721 2014-01-10 19:58:32 <jcorgan> and the taxi companies were taking something like 15%
722 2014-01-10 19:58:34 <linagee_> does anyone know why coinbase doesn't allow instantly turning BTC into fiat?
723 2014-01-10 19:59:03 <linagee_> (you can do it automatically once per day, and automatically every transaction if you play with their API, but no easy way AFAIK through the interface.)
724 2014-01-10 19:59:10 caktux_ has joined
725 2014-01-10 19:59:20 <linagee_> (almost as if they did that on purpose to discourage it.)
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738 2014-01-10 20:09:23 <niston> are there any projects in the works for instant bitcoin payment?
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743 2014-01-10 20:11:30 <linagee_> niston: get bitcoin in bankers hands on their own member portal (as unpopular of an idea as bankers are with the bitcoin crowd) and you could have instant payment.
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781 2014-01-10 21:08:32 <jiffe98> so I've been thinking about how to add a btc postage fee layer to smtp
782 2014-01-10 21:10:07 <jiffe98> I think a fee could be negotiated for sending mail with whitelists to waive the fee and this could initially be incorporated into spam filters passing ham and negotiating a fee for low level spam
783 2014-01-10 21:10:30 <jiffe98> and you can adjust that fee based on how much you don't want spam vs how much you want to check a spam filter
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839 2014-01-10 22:20:34 <ryan-c> I was looking for a working implementation of coinjoin - does anyone here use/recommend one?
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841 2014-01-10 22:24:21 <shesek> there was one built as a web service, but I can't remember the URL
842 2014-01-10 22:24:35 <shesek> ah, found it - https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/
843 2014-01-10 22:24:45 <shesek> but I understand that its not very active at the moment
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864 2014-01-10 22:42:57 <midnightmagic> shesek: The .onion address also works. It's active enough, there are coinjoin sessions fairly regularly.
865 2014-01-10 22:43:18 <ryan-c> does the .onion address go to the same server?
866 2014-01-10 22:43:54 <shesek> oh really? I understood from the developer that without gmaxwell coming to irc and telling people to go there its not awfully active :)
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868 2014-01-10 22:44:37 <midnightmagic> ;;cjs
869 2014-01-10 22:44:38 <gribble> Coinjoin Status: There is no currently open session. Visit https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/ or http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ to start one.
870 2014-01-10 22:44:59 <midnightmagic> ryan-c: don't know.
871 2014-01-10 22:45:02 <ryan-c> how long does a session stay open?
872 2014-01-10 22:45:11 <midnightmagic> shesek: Well..  I guess it depends on your definition of "regularly" :-)
873 2014-01-10 22:45:25 <midnightmagic> to me it seems amazing the number of times I've seen sessions open up
874 2014-01-10 22:45:58 <shesek> ryan-c, seems that its a few minutes
875 2014-01-10 22:46:10 <shesek> "... a new session opens. For the next several minutes ..."
876 2014-01-10 22:46:21 <ryan-c> that seems short
877 2014-01-10 22:46:30 <midnightmagic> ryan-c: an hour I think?  i've been trying to get rid of my stupid spam dust forever, so my only interactions with it have been to try to donate the dust to the coinjoin parasitically (via consuming any free space available due to fee granularity
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881 2014-01-10 22:49:10 <midnightmagic> the only thing that is a little confusing is whether it would be possible to sneakily steal coins by tricking one of the other participants into signing away coins they didn't originally add to the tx.
882 2014-01-10 22:49:16 <midnightmagic> (confusing to me anyway)
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886 2014-01-10 22:54:45 <ryan-c> midnightmagic: it gives you commands to run?
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889 2014-01-10 22:55:57 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: it would be, if you don't check how many and which signatures you added (this is really why there should be a script that you use to compare your input to what it asks you to sign)
890 2014-01-10 22:57:20 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: do you know how long the sessions stay open?
891 2014-01-10 22:57:56 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: 20 minutes or so, the tradeoff is that if its open too long people will forget to come back and sign.
892 2014-01-10 22:58:11 <gmaxwell> The way andy has been using it is promoting a session for hours before it starts.
893 2014-01-10 22:58:20 <gmaxwell> then everyone has 20 minutes to get their inputs in.
894 2014-01-10 22:58:43 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: ah - how often are those sessions?
895 2014-01-10 22:58:57 <ryan-c> advertised on irc?
896 2014-01-10 22:59:05 <shesek> I was thinking - perhaps signrawtransaction could accept a list of addresses/outputs that its allowed to sign?
897 2014-01-10 22:59:23 <shesek> would make it harder to trick users into signing with other keys that they're holding in their wallet that they didn't intend to use
898 2014-01-10 22:59:44 <andytoshi> ryan-c: supposed to be 2-3 times a week :P
899 2014-01-10 22:59:52 <andytoshi> but i've been preoccupied, i haven't done one in a couple weeks
900 2014-01-10 23:00:03 <ryan-c> ah
901 2014-01-10 23:00:03 <andytoshi> (i'm writing a Gtk client to obviate this raw transaction fear"
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903 2014-01-10 23:00:11 <ryan-c> nice
904 2014-01-10 23:00:51 <andytoshi> but i might have to take a break since i've borked my bitcoind :) it locked up on 'getnewaddress' and now it's locked up on shutdown..
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906 2014-01-10 23:01:07 <helo> oh you!
907 2014-01-10 23:01:11 <andytoshi> debug.log doesn't show anything weird
908 2014-01-10 23:01:30 <ryan-c> andytoshi: even a python script would be nice
909 2014-01-10 23:01:40 <andytoshi> ryan-c: oh, i've got one of those, one sec
910 2014-01-10 23:02:01 <andytoshi> ryan-c: the problem is that you've gotta put your bitcoinrpc password into the script, and that's a technical hurdle
911 2014-01-10 23:02:08 <andytoshi> https://github.com/apoelstra/coinjoin/blob/master/generate-tx.py
912 2014-01-10 23:02:23 <ryan-c> andytoshi: why not have it just read the bitcoin.conf for that?
913 2014-01-10 23:02:25 <andytoshi> (the gtk program i'm writing just filches the creds from ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf)
914 2014-01-10 23:02:36 <andytoshi> ryan-c: because i didn't think of that yet when i wrote the python script
915 2014-01-10 23:02:43 <ryan-c> andytoshi: do you want a patch?
916 2014-01-10 23:02:58 <ryan-c> i already have some code that does that for bitcoinrpc
917 2014-01-10 23:03:33 <andytoshi> ryan-c: i'd welcome one
918 2014-01-10 23:05:12 <ryan-c> why are there semicolons everywhere?
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920 2014-01-10 23:05:51 <andytoshi> ryan-c: do you think there could possibly be a good reason? :P
921 2014-01-10 23:06:05 <andytoshi> because i wrote the script in ten minutes and wasn't thinking about python conventions
922 2014-01-10 23:06:32 <ryan-c> https://gist.github.com/ryancdotorg/8364317
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924 2014-01-10 23:06:57 <ryan-c> there's a function that takes in a filename and makes an AuthServiceProxy instance using the creds from the config file.
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927 2014-01-10 23:07:09 <andytoshi> awesome
928 2014-01-10 23:07:16 <andytoshi> how do i do the "detect windows/mac" dance in python?
929 2014-01-10 23:07:52 <ryan-c> andytoshi: you'll need to remove the print_stderr line though, that's a custom function that i forgot to remove the reference to
930 2014-01-10 23:08:41 <ryan-c> andytoshi: this looks promising: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2552416/how-can-i-find-the-users-home-dir-in-a-cross-platform-manner-using-c
931 2014-01-10 23:09:24 <ryan-c> os.path.expanduser("~") is apparently what you need
932 2014-01-10 23:10:07 <ryan-c> http://docs.python.org/2/library/os.path.html
933 2014-01-10 23:10:08 <andytoshi> that'll give me C:\Users\username ... i need %APPDATA%
934 2014-01-10 23:10:12 <andytoshi> i'll look it up
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936 2014-01-10 23:11:04 <ryan-c> yeah, you might need to get the environment variable from os.environ
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944 2014-01-10 23:18:15 <andytoshi> ryan-c: ok, the github is updated
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946 2014-01-10 23:18:24 <andytoshi> my bitcoind is still jammed <.<
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948 2014-01-10 23:18:43 <helo> path.expanduser('~')
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950 2014-01-10 23:19:02 <helo> oh right...
951 2014-01-10 23:20:33 <andytoshi> lol shit, i committed my rpc password
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961 2014-01-10 23:31:49 <Burrito> Hey forrestv, it seems your site relating to P2Pool stats ( http://forre.st:9332/ ) is giving a warning that it has lost contact with bitcoind for 50 days. Some of the stats appear to be blank because of this.
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963 2014-01-10 23:32:03 <Burrito> lol andytoshi :X
964 2014-01-10 23:33:42 <Burrito> whoops, that was half a message. forrestv: I was wondering if you were still maintaining it, especially the 'sendmany' helper script: http://forre.st:9332/patron_sendmany/10
965 2014-01-10 23:34:03 <forrestv> Burrito, not really ... p2pool.info has replaced most of its functions
966 2014-01-10 23:34:53 <Burrito> Alright, thanks. I'd update the wiki article, but I haven't paid for antispam :V
967 2014-01-10 23:35:12 <forrestv> ah, i'll do it
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974 2014-01-10 23:39:56 <Burrito> Looks like most P2P nodes host those helper scripts, so things like http://p2pool.org:9332/patron_sendmany/10 work too.
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983 2014-01-10 23:57:26 <maaku> who maintains p2pool.info, is that open source?
984 2014-01-10 23:58:30 <maaku> for a long time i've wanted to build something similar into p2pool itself