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   4 2014-01-13 00:05:52 <andytoshi> anyone here have experience compiling programs with jansson for windows?
   5 2014-01-13 00:06:08 <andytoshi> i don't have libjansson-4.dll, it's a small lib so i'd be ok with statically linking it..
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   8 2014-01-13 00:14:02 <gmaxwell> yes, it's including the subsidy, you can tell because if you go to the 'all time' graph the numbers halved at the subsidy change.
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  13 2014-01-13 00:15:57 <TD> gmaxwell: more simply, it tells you what the charts mean on the charts index page
  14 2014-01-13 00:16:00 * TD -> sleep
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  16 2014-01-13 00:16:46 <gmaxwell> "A chart showing miners revenue as as percentage of the transaction volume"  isn't really clear.
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  38 2014-01-13 00:56:31 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: static linking is always bad :P
  39 2014-01-13 00:56:55 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: I compile BFGMiner for Windows essentially the same as I do for Linux
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  50 2014-01-13 01:03:41 <andytoshi> Luke-Jr: agreed, i just can't track down this dll
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  52 2014-01-13 01:04:52 <andytoshi> can you give me a ./configure line to compile bfgminer for windows? i'd like to see how it behaves
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  56 2014-01-13 01:07:25 <andytoshi> never mind, --target=mingw32 does it
  57 2014-01-13 01:08:03 <Luke-Jr> I use ./configure --prefix='C:\\Program Files\\BFGMiner\\' CFLAGS='-Wall -O1 -ggdb -march=i686' --enable-cpumining --enable-opencl --enable-adl --enable-bitforce --enable-icarus --enable-modminer --enable-ztex --build=i686-pc-linux-gnu --host=i686-pc-mingw32 --enable-scrypt --enable-ztex
  58 2014-01-13 01:08:25 <Luke-Jr> well, when testing lately..
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 173 2014-01-13 03:49:57 <gmaxwell> Jim Burton's pgp key isn't signed by any key I reconize. If one of you gets the chance to fix that, you probably should.
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 181 2014-01-13 03:58:28 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, sign the key as untrusted
 182 2014-01-13 03:58:42 <phantomcircuit> be quizicle when that gives it higher standing than unsigned in gnupg
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 185 2014-01-13 04:01:14 <gmaxwell> I don't want to sign it, but I'd like to know that its legit. Though with the number of people randomly signing everything they run across... you can't tell anymore short of actually asking the signer.
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 195 2014-01-13 04:14:50 <Mr_Psmith> gmaxwell: Thanks for posting in here
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 197 2014-01-13 04:15:15 <gmaxwell> Mr_Psmith: hah, were you tuning in to ask the same thing?
 198 2014-01-13 04:15:42 <Mr_Psmith> gmaxwell: Aye. I was able to verify I had the same key fingerprint for that guy, but other than that, he said "Is it safe?" and all I could say was "Probably."
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 201 2014-01-13 04:16:14 <gmaxwell> Mr_Psmith: yea, "well based on the fact that attacks are rare, the answer was still 'probably' before you checked" :P
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 203 2014-01-13 04:16:40 <fanquake> ;;tslb
 204 2014-01-13 04:16:43 <gribble> Time since last block: 7 hours, 55 minutes, and 26 seconds ago
 205 2014-01-13 04:16:51 <gmaxwell> lol
 206 2014-01-13 04:17:05 <fanquake> Been like that for a while now heh
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 260 2014-01-13 05:57:54 <tpm476> hi
 261 2014-01-13 05:58:06 <tpm476> i am looking for help
 262 2014-01-13 05:58:17 <tpm476> in developing a custom mining software
 263 2014-01-13 05:58:31 porquilho has joined
 264 2014-01-13 05:58:37 <tpm476> and i am trying to support the getblocktemplate json
 265 2014-01-13 05:58:39 e0s_ has joined
 266 2014-01-13 05:58:41 <tpm476> but i am confused
 267 2014-01-13 05:58:50 <tpm476> anyone could help me ?
 268 2014-01-13 05:59:04 <Luke-Jr> tpm476: read (or use) libblkmaker?
 269 2014-01-13 05:59:12 vigilyn_ has joined
 270 2014-01-13 05:59:12 <Luke-Jr> or ask specific questions at least
 271 2014-01-13 05:59:20 <tpm476> okay
 272 2014-01-13 05:59:24 <tpm476> firstly
 273 2014-01-13 06:00:02 <tpm476> bitcond -testnet  , doesnt return an expected response when the getblocktemplate is invoker
 274 2014-01-13 06:00:04 vigilyn has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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 276 2014-01-13 06:00:38 <tpm476> i.e. no coinbasetxn data and transaction list  return
 277 2014-01-13 06:01:41 <tpm476> let me start up my test server and give you the real data
 278 2014-01-13 06:01:58 ValicekB has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 279 2014-01-13 06:03:30 <tpm476> oh sorry , i am using the testnet-box
 280 2014-01-13 06:03:35 <tpm476> not the testnet
 281 2014-01-13 06:03:49 <Luke-Jr> tpm476: try sending a transaction
 282 2014-01-13 06:04:01 <Luke-Jr> tpm476: coinbasetxn is indeed not included, as bitcoind couldn't care less what you put
 283 2014-01-13 06:04:26 <tpm476> okay ,
 284 2014-01-13 06:05:00 <tpm476> does it mean i must invoker a transaction in order to coinbasetxn from the getblocktemplate then ?
 285 2014-01-13 06:06:03 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind won't give you coinbasetxn no matter what, you will need to provide it yourself
 286 2014-01-13 06:06:31 <Luke-Jr> eg https://gitorious.org/bitcoin/libblkmaker/source/8d1946930153a418d9d7394f362a7cc0de77040b:blkmaker.c#L44
 287 2014-01-13 06:07:04 <tpm476> hmm
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 289 2014-01-13 06:07:23 <tpm476> okay , i will try to digest it first
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 292 2014-01-13 06:12:56 <tpm476> so the coinbasetxn is actually provided by the pool , i am right to say that ?
 293 2014-01-13 06:14:53 <Luke-Jr> tpm476: yes, pools provide it
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 310 2014-01-13 06:56:25 <tpm476> is there any simpler doc that explains how the coinbasetxn is generated ?
 311 2014-01-13 06:57:05 <tpm476> or there an alternative to getting the coinbasetxn for mining purposes ?
 312 2014-01-13 06:57:29 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#tx perhaps
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 314 2014-01-13 06:58:00 <Luke-Jr> tpm476: what are your goals with a new miner btw?
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 317 2014-01-13 06:59:17 <tpm476> trying to implement  hashing algorithm based  on  pre - generated dictonary
 318 2014-01-13 06:59:48 <tpm476> sounds like it will fail already , but i am just want to test out my theories
 319 2014-01-13 07:00:14 <Luke-Jr> might be easier to just use libblkmaker directly then?
 320 2014-01-13 07:00:28 <Luke-Jr> it can give you the 80 byte block headers you'd hash
 321 2014-01-13 07:00:40 <tpm476> i dont really understand c ++ / c , that's the problem
 322 2014-01-13 07:00:54 <Luke-Jr> python-blkmaker then? :P
 323 2014-01-13 07:01:07 <tpm476> i am using java , and the diablo miner is still using getwork
 324 2014-01-13 07:01:38 <Luke-Jr> I see. Don't know any Java implementations yet.
 325 2014-01-13 07:01:51 <tpm476> in fact i was using getwork , but until some one told me about the getblocktemplate
 326 2014-01-13 07:02:18 <Luke-Jr> getwork is probably fine for testing ideas out
 327 2014-01-13 07:02:34 <Luke-Jr> although note you'll want to un-flip the numbers most likely
 328 2014-01-13 07:02:34 <tpm476> k
 329 2014-01-13 07:02:56 <Luke-Jr> so take the first 80 bytes of data, and reverse the order of each 32-bit block
 330 2014-01-13 07:03:00 <Luke-Jr> then you have the block header
 331 2014-01-13 07:03:12 <Luke-Jr> but even that may be irrelevant for your needs
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 342 2014-01-13 07:14:11 <tpm476> okay , thanks
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 356 2014-01-13 07:35:56 <wumpus> sipa: I'm not sure about #3520, you're trying to add HD wallet support without touching the wallet code? :)
 357 2014-01-13 07:38:55 justanotheruser has joined
 358 2014-01-13 07:42:30 <gmaxwell> Baby steps.
 359 2014-01-13 07:44:37 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 360 2014-01-13 07:44:38 impulse has quit (Quit: leaving)
 361 2014-01-13 07:45:01 <wumpus> but it's bound to confuse people a lot, what are they supposed to do with the generated keys and addresses?
 362 2014-01-13 07:45:55 <wumpus> or is this meant with use of the raw transactions API, if you do the key management completely outside the daemon?
 363 2014-01-13 07:46:13 <gmaxwell> wumpus: thats what I thought, fwiw, but I'm no more a mind reader than you. :)
 364 2014-01-13 07:46:46 MobPhone has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 365 2014-01-13 07:47:03 <warren> wumpus: maybe we'll have HD wallet support outside of the wallet, some of which are watch-only, mixed into your balance.  Not confusing at all.
 366 2014-01-13 07:47:08 <gmaxwell> unfortuantely the bip32 code in bitcoin is pretty deeply integrated into the overall codebase, or I'd suggest just making it a seperate utility we could ship. (though that wouldn't help people who wanted rpc access to it because they're coding in objective brainfuck or something)
 367 2014-01-13 07:47:13 <wumpus> heh, in that case it should come with a big warning, I'm sure people will otherwise try to use it with importprivkey  
 368 2014-01-13 07:47:50 <wumpus> warren: okay, not confusing at all, I'll shut up about it, let's just merge it and see then
 369 2014-01-13 07:48:03 <warren> wumpus: I'm never sarcastic.
 370 2014-01-13 07:48:14 <wumpus> warren: I'm never sarcastic either
 371 2014-01-13 07:48:26 <wumpus> :D
 372 2014-01-13 07:48:47 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 373 2014-01-13 07:49:05 weex has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 374 2014-01-13 07:49:32 <wumpus> gmaxwell: there is a place for some kind of library stuff that could be in bitcoind but doesn't use any of the reasons for the daemon for existing (network, blockchain or wallet)
 375 2014-01-13 07:49:50 <wumpus> gmaxwell: in which case putting it in the daemon is only a bottleneck
 376 2014-01-13 07:50:08 Guest75192 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 377 2014-01-13 07:50:25 rrrrrall has joined
 378 2014-01-13 07:51:13 <wumpus> it could be an external utility as well, but that'd mostly be useful for command-line 
 379 2014-01-13 07:51:29 Guest75192 has joined
 380 2014-01-13 07:52:41 <wumpus> command-line key and transaction manipulation is something that Amir and al are making the 'sx' utility for
 381 2014-01-13 07:53:20 Nesetalis has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 382 2014-01-13 07:53:37 hmmma has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 383 2014-01-13 07:55:59 <wumpus> but I really don't like to make people depend on bitcoind (which is at heart a full node) for all kind of auxiliary things. you'd force someone to run a full node to be able to use BIP32 functionality.
 384 2014-01-13 07:56:13 <wumpus> which is good for the number of full nodes of course
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 391 2014-01-13 07:59:52 <gmaxwell> wumpus: one doesn't exclude the other though.
 392 2014-01-13 07:59:53 rrrrrall has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 393 2014-01-13 08:00:08 <gmaxwell> And the rpc does have the benefit of being all languages callable.
 394 2014-01-13 08:00:13 <gmaxwell> and working as a commandline tool.
 395 2014-01-13 08:00:45 <wumpus> yes, RPC has that advantage, but it doesn't need to be RPC on bitcoind
 396 2014-01-13 08:00:59 <wumpus> it could be miscfunstuffd too
 397 2014-01-13 08:02:59 <warren> wumpus: I'm playing with watch-only, found another bug
 398 2014-01-13 08:03:07 <warren> need to retest in actual bitcoin master ...
 399 2014-01-13 08:03:45 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 400 2014-01-13 08:03:49 <gmaxwell> wumpus: ::nods::
 401 2014-01-13 08:04:14 VinceSamios has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 402 2014-01-13 08:04:16 <wumpus> warren: seems to be full of bugs lately
 403 2014-01-13 08:04:24 <wumpus> warren: I'm happy we didn't merge it yet
 404 2014-01-13 08:05:05 <wumpus> warren: but yes, please report any bugs with that in pull #3383
 405 2014-01-13 08:05:22 <warren> wumpus: confirming it's in master before I do, I did another backport to 0.8
 406 2014-01-13 08:05:24 VinceSamios has joined
 407 2014-01-13 08:05:42 <warren> it was working until it decided to change isminetype from 0 to 1 for no reason
 408 2014-01-13 08:05:54 <warren> well, for no good reason
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 412 2014-01-13 08:11:51 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 413 2014-01-13 08:12:50 johnsoft has joined
 414 2014-01-13 08:15:04 <warren> wumpus: master + watchonly does not build for me
 415 2014-01-13 08:15:15 impulse has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 416 2014-01-13 08:15:46 <wumpus> warren: I just did a rebase and full buld of that pull, worked fine for me
 417 2014-01-13 08:16:02 <warren> http://0bin.net/paste/TKi+MS6R3B5Fxekt#YtXZ7qpH2GqBljll2TOU9wMcoK0E+dc3Mh6pxhTWaWA=
 418 2014-01-13 08:16:19 <warren> makes no sense ...
 419 2014-01-13 08:16:23 <wumpus> did you make clean first?
 420 2014-01-13 08:16:27 <warren> oh
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 424 2014-01-13 08:26:06 <Lifeofcray> https://twitter.com/BitEmber coinye giveaway at 50k
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 434 2014-01-13 08:32:48 <tpm476> hi
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 436 2014-01-13 08:32:57 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 437 2014-01-13 08:33:12 <tpm476> can anyone here explain how coinbasetxn is generated by the pool using  getblocktemplate  ?
 438 2014-01-13 08:33:49 Application has joined
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 440 2014-01-13 08:35:20 <warren> anyone have testnet coins?  I need ~20 inputs to test something.
 441 2014-01-13 08:35:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Lifeofcray: this is not the place for that. L
 442 2014-01-13 08:35:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That.*
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 444 2014-01-13 08:36:10 <warren> mxCseC2bisCMb7eFjBnPZEKN1Y2yJe8d14
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 463 2014-01-13 09:05:03 <fanquake> Is anyone else unable to build master on osx? Been trying with QT4/5 and consistently getting build errors.
 464 2014-01-13 09:05:46 t7 has joined
 465 2014-01-13 09:05:48 <fanquake> moc_bitcoingui.cpp:190:22: error: no member named 'trayIconActivated' in 'BitcoinGUI'
 466 2014-01-13 09:08:01 <wumpus> fanquake: could be a regression due to the GUI merges this weekend
 467 2014-01-13 09:08:26 <wumpus> I can check windows and linux, but not macosx
 468 2014-01-13 09:12:36 tpm476 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 26.0/20131205075310])
 469 2014-01-13 09:13:57 <wumpus> (as there is no cross build for that)
 470 2014-01-13 09:17:10 <fanquake> mmm not yet. I think theuni was working on building deterministic osx dmgs from linux. Although I can't seem to find the branch with that work anymore.
 471 2014-01-13 09:17:29 <wumpus> yes, there is work on that, but it's very hard
 472 2014-01-13 09:18:11 <wumpus> in any case, have you checked it's not just a matter of make clean?
 473 2014-01-13 09:18:51 HaltingState has joined
 474 2014-01-13 09:18:58 <wumpus> hmm - trayIconActivated shouldn't even exist on macosx
 475 2014-01-13 09:19:20 <wumpus> it's all in #ifndef Q_OS_MAC
 476 2014-01-13 09:19:29 HaltingState has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 477 2014-01-13 09:21:08 <fanquake> Yea. Originally I thought it might have been because I was building with qt4, so i cleaned up, and then tried building again with qt5 and got the same result.
 478 2014-01-13 09:21:19 <wumpus> I see the problem https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/ec41342
 479 2014-01-13 09:21:37 <wumpus> can you change that line to MOC_DEFS+=$(DEFS) -I$(top_srcdir)/src
 480 2014-01-13 09:21:54 <fanquake> Sure.
 481 2014-01-13 09:22:04 caktux_ has joined
 482 2014-01-13 09:22:09 <wumpus> (it's now completely overriding the MOC_DEFS, causing the macosx def to be lost)
 483 2014-01-13 09:24:21 <warren> wumpus: hmm
 484 2014-01-13 09:24:45 <warren> wumpus: I was unable to reproduce my own suspected bug because I ran into the issue that kyledrake complained about
 485 2014-01-13 09:24:51 MobPhone has joined
 486 2014-01-13 09:26:33 <wumpus> warren: have you tried your own suggestion?
 487 2014-01-13 09:26:35 n0n0 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 488 2014-01-13 09:26:39 <Happzz> i was wondering, how secure is an encrypted wallet.dat
 489 2014-01-13 09:26:49 <warren> wumpus: huh?
 490 2014-01-13 09:27:13 <wumpus> warren: that you made to kyledrake, about 3502
 491 2014-01-13 09:27:53 <warren> I didn't really have a suggestion
 492 2014-01-13 09:28:07 <wumpus> then test with #3502 merged
 493 2014-01-13 09:28:13 <warren> oh, I did, it's broken
 494 2014-01-13 09:28:22 <warren> or at least his address isn't showing any watchonly inputs
 495 2014-01-13 09:28:37 * warren tries a different address
 496 2014-01-13 09:29:34 <fanquake> wumpus Seems to have fixed the issue, and build time decreased at least 80%.
 497 2014-01-13 09:29:52 <warren> wumpus: hmm, his test address doens't work, a random other one does.
 498 2014-01-13 09:31:00 jddebug- has joined
 499 2014-01-13 09:31:07 impulse has joined
 500 2014-01-13 09:31:08 <lechuga__> "Note that there is a small number of standard script forms that are relayed from node to node; non-standard scripts are accepted if they are in a block, but nodes will not relay them."
 501 2014-01-13 09:31:20 <lechuga__> so what does that imply
 502 2014-01-13 09:31:47 <lechuga__> if the nodes dont relay them could these ever be useful?
 503 2014-01-13 09:33:33 <wumpus> miners can include them for you directly
 504 2014-01-13 09:33:53 <lechuga__> how would i give them directly to miners
 505 2014-01-13 09:34:18 <wumpus> some pools have APIs for that
 506 2014-01-13 09:34:37 Lifeofcray has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 507 2014-01-13 09:34:48 <lechuga__> are u awar eof any?
 508 2014-01-13 09:34:50 <lechuga__> specifically
 509 2014-01-13 09:34:58 lifeofcray has joined
 510 2014-01-13 09:35:15 <wumpus> no, do your own research
 511 2014-01-13 09:35:39 Krellan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 512 2014-01-13 09:36:14 <warren> wumpus: hmm, my bug didn't happen in master, and kyledrake's address is just different somehow
 513 2014-01-13 09:36:32 <warren> wumpus: on 0.8 if I rename the label of a watchonly address it changes isminetype to 1
 514 2014-01-13 09:37:04 <warren> trying to backport it to 0.8.6 for kyledrake
 515 2014-01-13 09:38:32 <lechuga__> looks like i can send the txs to hub nodes
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 519 2014-01-13 09:42:00 <warren> I'll figure it out.
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 522 2014-01-13 09:42:38 <sipa> wumpus: there are already python, go, java, c++ libraries out there that can do bip32 derivation
 523 2014-01-13 09:42:49 graingert has joined
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 528 2014-01-13 09:43:31 <sipa> wumpus: it's in the same class of operations as decoderawtransaction
 529 2014-01-13 09:44:57 <wumpus> sipa: yes, it is
 530 2014-01-13 09:45:07 smash_ has joined
 531 2014-01-13 09:45:19 <wumpus> but I'm personally not really happy on extending that class more and more
 532 2014-01-13 09:45:33 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 533 2014-01-13 09:45:54 <sipa> well, i can't imagine not having any "reference" implementation for that functionality
 534 2014-01-13 09:45:58 <wumpus> and as this looks like wallet functionality it might get people to make some terrible errors, as they think it's integrated with the wallet
 535 2014-01-13 09:46:18 <sipa> the plan obviously is to integrate it with the wallet
 536 2014-01-13 09:46:35 <sipa> i'm happy to wait with merging it until that is implemented too
 537 2014-01-13 09:46:58 <wumpus> it just confuses me, I'm ok with merging it, it doesn't get in the way or anything like that
 538 2014-01-13 09:47:12 <sipa> agree about potential confusing
 539 2014-01-13 09:47:29 AriseChikun has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 540 2014-01-13 09:48:19 <wumpus> but we've been trying to discourage people from doing per-key manipulations with bitcoind for ages, and now we introduce a nice way to generate privkeys/addresses without the wallet... which is cool, if there wasn't already wallet functionality in bitcoind
 541 2014-01-13 09:48:20 <sipa> shipping 0.9 with hdderive but without actual bip32 wallet sounds dangerous and confusing indeed
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 546 2014-01-13 09:48:48 <wumpus> right
 547 2014-01-13 09:49:02 Application has joined
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 549 2014-01-13 09:49:21 <sipa> i don't believe not having functionality will discourage people from doing key manipulation, though i agree with the sentiment
 550 2014-01-13 09:49:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: I would point out that we could switch to use the bip32 in a straight line private derrive only with just a few lines of code.
 551 2014-01-13 09:49:48 <sipa> the only solution is to have working easy solutions that avoid it
 552 2014-01-13 09:49:54 <gmaxwell> they're doing key manipulation anyways, with random python code that google turns up which may never even have been tested.
 553 2014-01-13 09:50:11 <wumpus> sipa: and the thing is that doing key manipulation is fine and dandy, if not combined with the current wallet implementation
 554 2014-01-13 09:50:27 <sipa> hell, there's already a website that can do what hdderive can
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 559 2014-01-13 09:51:00 <wumpus> right, let's just add a serious warning then
 560 2014-01-13 09:51:06 VinceSamios has joined
 561 2014-01-13 09:51:15 <sipa> wumpus: ok, let's wait until we have *some* deterministic wallet implementation befote merging hdderive?
 562 2014-01-13 09:51:32 <wumpus> *this is a independent utility function and does not allow turning the bitcoind wallet into a determinstic wallet*
 563 2014-01-13 09:51:57 <sipa> that text is also useful as documentation
 564 2014-01-13 09:53:25 <wumpus> sipa: currently the functionality is unavailable when building with --disable-wallet, that makes no sense :)
 565 2014-01-13 09:53:32 <warren> wumpus: what changed in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3383 an hour ago?
 566 2014-01-13 09:53:46 Eagle[TM] has joined
 567 2014-01-13 09:55:10 Applicat_ has joined
 568 2014-01-13 09:55:23 <sipa> wumpus: i thought about that
 569 2014-01-13 09:55:25 <wumpus> warren: rebased to master
 570 2014-01-13 09:55:35 <warren> k
 571 2014-01-13 09:55:52 <sipa> wumpus: but if you don't build in a wallet, i assume you just want a relay node that does not do any walleting
 572 2014-01-13 09:56:04 <wumpus> sipa: it's key manipulation utility functionality, not wallet functionality, so belongs in rpcmisc.cpp with the other utility stuff IMO
 573 2014-01-13 09:56:11 <sipa> ok
 574 2014-01-13 09:56:12 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 575 2014-01-13 09:56:21 <wumpus> sipa: sure, but we crossed that line with validateaddress and such already
 576 2014-01-13 09:56:55 <sipa> i hate it that we have rpcs that may ir may not have wallet functionality, and work differently between the cases
 577 2014-01-13 09:56:59 <wumpus> sipa: that was my initial opinion too, but jgarzik made a good point that everything that can be available without wallet should be, and deciding what to put where can wait until real modularization
 578 2014-01-13 09:57:10 <sipa> createrawtransaction for example
 579 2014-01-13 09:57:14 <wumpus> sipa: ... me too
 580 2014-01-13 09:57:18 <wumpus> it really complicates things
 581 2014-01-13 09:58:06 <wumpus> validateaddress just validates an address without wallet, but with wallet it's suddenly 'show address details'
 582 2014-01-13 09:58:08 <warren> these util features would help bitcoin core compete with the alt implementations too...
 583 2014-01-13 09:58:22 <warren> while it is confusing, it isn't wrong
 584 2014-01-13 09:58:50 <wumpus> getinfo is the worst offender here, showing information about all kinds of unrelated concerns
 585 2014-01-13 09:59:01 <sipa> moving the wallet specific part of validateaddress to getaddressinfo or so would not hurt
 586 2014-01-13 09:59:09 <sipa> and getinfo is a kitchen sink
 587 2014-01-13 09:59:24 <gmaxwell> getinfo is also bad because getting the balances is _slow_.
 588 2014-01-13 09:59:41 <sipa> getwalletinfo go go go
 589 2014-01-13 09:59:42 <wumpus> warren: how would that be? as the utility code is unrelated to everything, they can easily merge it with their own versions too
 590 2014-01-13 10:00:05 <wumpus> getwalletinfo and getaddressinfo, good ideas
 591 2014-01-13 10:00:09 <gmaxwell> yea, stripping all the wallet stuff from getinfo would be good.
 592 2014-01-13 10:00:22 <warren> wumpus: alt implemenations tend to be written in <other language>
 593 2014-01-13 10:00:34 <wumpus> warren: ahhh right.. I was confused with ALTcoins
 594 2014-01-13 10:01:20 <sipa> perhaps have getwalletinfo and getnodeinfo
 595 2014-01-13 10:01:31 <sipa> with getinfo a deprecated merge of both
 596 2014-01-13 10:01:47 <wumpus> getblockchaininfo :P
 597 2014-01-13 10:01:50 <wumpus> good idea sipa
 598 2014-01-13 10:02:27 <sipa> maybe it would depend on how we decouple things when modularizing
 599 2014-01-13 10:02:43 <sipa> node, valudatation engine, blockchain database
 600 2014-01-13 10:02:50 <sipa> may become separate parts
 601 2014-01-13 10:03:02 <sipa> bah, validation
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 605 2014-01-13 10:06:59 <lechuga__> ah eligius has a way to push txs directly
 606 2014-01-13 10:09:26 <CodeShark> <--- is happy to see efforts underway to remove wallet dependencies from bitcoind :)
 607 2014-01-13 10:09:38 <wumpus> CodeShark: yes, finally
 608 2014-01-13 10:10:58 <CodeShark> is the immediate plan to split the two processes completely? or is there an interim step where we just have two separate builds?
 609 2014-01-13 10:11:19 <sipa> right now, the wallet is just an optional part
 610 2014-01-13 10:11:25 <wumpus> the interim step is to be able to build entirely without wallet
 611 2014-01-13 10:11:28 <CodeShark> optional meaning compiletime option?
 612 2014-01-13 10:11:33 <sipa> yes
 613 2014-01-13 10:11:42 <CodeShark> ok
 614 2014-01-13 10:11:47 <sipa> ./configure --disable-wallet
 615 2014-01-13 10:11:59 <sipa> which also removes the bdb dependency of the build
 616 2014-01-13 10:12:03 <CodeShark> right
 617 2014-01-13 10:12:11 TD[gone] is now known as TD
 618 2014-01-13 10:12:23 <TD> good morning
 619 2014-01-13 10:12:29 <CodeShark> good morning, TD
 620 2014-01-13 10:12:36 <sipa> good morning, infidels
 621 2014-01-13 10:13:04 <wumpus> CodeShark: next step will be modularizing bitcoind, so that it's easier to experiment with alternative wallet implementations, including ones that run in a seperate process
 622 2014-01-13 10:13:28 <CodeShark> alright - I'm very interested in this part of the process especially
 623 2014-01-13 10:13:34 * sipa still likes to see the wallet run on an SPV core
 624 2014-01-13 10:14:11 <sipa> so the GUI could either run directly as an SPV node, or it could fork a full node in the backgrouns and -connect to it
 625 2014-01-13 10:14:29 <wumpus> CodeShark: see #3440 and #3465 for plans
 626 2014-01-13 10:15:04 <wumpus> sipa: I'm not so sure about that anymore; good SPV wallets exist, what would ours add?
 627 2014-01-13 10:15:22 <sipa> wumpus: not requiring a full node
 628 2014-01-13 10:16:04 <TD> isn't that circular?
 629 2014-01-13 10:16:09 <TD> you just defined SPV :)
 630 2014-01-13 10:16:10 <sipa> and it can still easily integrate with one (allow running one transparently if resources allow...)
 631 2014-01-13 10:16:12 <CodeShark> we can still provide proofs of tx inclusion of blockchain without requiring the client to connect via p2p protocol
 632 2014-01-13 10:16:22 <CodeShark> *proofs of tx inclusion in blockchain
 633 2014-01-13 10:16:27 <TD> well, we can start on that by embedding a micro-jvm into bitcoin-qt and then checking to see if localhost:8333 is open :)
 634 2014-01-13 10:16:30 <wumpus> I mean, multibit could do the same (fork a full node on the background)
 635 2014-01-13 10:16:40 <TD> although for security reasons i'm not sure it's such a great idea to do loopback sockets :)
 636 2014-01-13 10:16:49 <TD> on multi-user systems that sounds like a recipe for MITM
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 639 2014-01-13 10:17:33 <sipa> wumpus: i think it is silly to burden our wallet implementation (which is bloated and has flaws, but works) by requiring a full node underneath which it does not use for anything it all
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 641 2014-01-13 10:18:15 <wumpus> sure, you have a point for consistency
 642 2014-01-13 10:18:24 <CodeShark> the SPV layer probably deserves to run as a separate process as well (or at the very least have good libraries for it)
 643 2014-01-13 10:18:57 <wumpus> I'd like a bitcoin-qt-spv as well
 644 2014-01-13 10:19:13 <gmaxwell> from a priv sep perspective I'd certantly like it if nothing with private key access was in the same memory space as something connecting to untrusted nodes.
 645 2014-01-13 10:19:18 <CodeShark> right now my current architecture is something like p2p <-> SPV-to-higher-level-IPC <-> wallet
 646 2014-01-13 10:19:38 <sipa> bitcoin-core-lightweight-wallet-gui
 647 2014-01-13 10:20:20 <CodeShark> or not even necessarily IPC - could be signals/slots within the same process
 648 2014-01-13 10:20:28 <wumpus> gmaxwell: indeed, and sharing a blockchain daemon would be possible between multiple wallets run by multiple users
 649 2014-01-13 10:20:55 <wumpus> multiple different wallet implementations even
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 652 2014-01-13 10:22:07 <CodeShark> we could have an SPV service running which can be called from different bitcoin-enabled applications
 653 2014-01-13 10:22:22 <CodeShark> which provides a high level API for receiving SPV-proofs and state updates
 654 2014-01-13 10:22:39 <TD> frankly i think running full nodes on end-user systems is doomed in the long run. not that many people are using desktop systems outside of offices anymore, and the trend on laptops is to care a lot about energy usage
 655 2014-01-13 10:22:54 <CodeShark> obviating the need for each and every bitcoin-enabled app to have to worry about the SPV logic, which is far from trivial
 656 2014-01-13 10:23:05 <TD> so it's probably not worth doing funny logic for the case where both run on the same machine
 657 2014-01-13 10:23:09 <wumpus> TD: people are also running bittorrent on end user systems
 658 2014-01-13 10:23:33 <wumpus> which similarly consumes a lot of bandwidth, power and disk space
 659 2014-01-13 10:23:43 <TD> for downloading, sure? i thought they had to spend a ton of effort trying to get people to seed
 660 2014-01-13 10:23:54 <wumpus> it's just a matter of motivating them it's a good thing
 661 2014-01-13 10:24:07 <sipa> TD: i like the approach i suggested because it foesn't care about whether it's running on the same system or not, or whether they have a full node or not
 662 2014-01-13 10:24:07 <wumpus> oh sure
 663 2014-01-13 10:24:12 <TD> sipa: sure
 664 2014-01-13 10:24:29 <TD> sipa: you're preaching to the choir here, i spent years on spv for exactly this reason :-)
 665 2014-01-13 10:24:32 <CodeShark> sipa, that's exactly yhe approach I'm currently using
 666 2014-01-13 10:24:34 <sipa> haha
 667 2014-01-13 10:24:35 <CodeShark> *the
 668 2014-01-13 10:24:46 <CodeShark> yeah, I think we're all on the same page here
 669 2014-01-13 10:24:48 <TD> i'd like to implement a bitcoind compatible JSON-RPC API on top of bitcoinj at some point
 670 2014-01-13 10:24:52 <wumpus> but I wouldn't like it when only big companies with huge servers could run a full node
 671 2014-01-13 10:25:03 <TD> so people can retarget apps between them easily, if they can fit into that API. then it's really easy to trade off  security vs resource usage
 672 2014-01-13 10:25:21 <lianj> wumpus: but thats what it will be like
 673 2014-01-13 10:25:32 <TD> wumpus: ah, we won't get there any time soon. most crappy VPS's have less RAM and disk than most laptops. but ... they run 24/7 and nobody cares about their heat or power usage (much)
 674 2014-01-13 10:25:32 <sipa> CodeShark: what exactly does the layer in between do? send notifications of "connect this block, disconnect this block" ?
 675 2014-01-13 10:25:42 <TD> wumpus: if they make a lot of noise, again, who cares.
 676 2014-01-13 10:26:04 <CodeShark> yes, sipa - it could even provide higher level messages such as "transaction satisfying filter X received 6 confirmations"
 677 2014-01-13 10:26:17 <sipa> right
 678 2014-01-13 10:26:27 <wumpus> TD: people are running full nodes on their desktop pcs/laptops, and will be for the considerable future
 679 2014-01-13 10:26:35 <sipa> makes sense if you want to run many wallets
 680 2014-01-13 10:27:10 <wumpus> but sure, it's not something for end users that simple want a wallet
 681 2014-01-13 10:27:13 <TD> if you compare usage numbers for bitcoin-qt stable/listening nodes  vs something like blockchain.info, which just blew past 1 million wallets ...... i'm not sure that's much of a comparison
 682 2014-01-13 10:27:15 <TD> yeah
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 685 2014-01-13 10:27:35 <wumpus> I'm not trying to say 'a majority of users should be running a full node' or something like that
 686 2014-01-13 10:27:36 <sipa> TD: not a fair comparison
 687 2014-01-13 10:27:53 <lianj> daily/weekly active
 688 2014-01-13 10:28:19 <sipa> TD: i'm not sure many of those b.i users would choose a full node or even SPV wallet, if it was feature-wise comparable and 0 resource usage
 689 2014-01-13 10:28:58 <sipa> wumpus: my goal is "it should be easy to run a full node, if you want to"
 690 2014-01-13 10:29:06 <wumpus> sipa: right
 691 2014-01-13 10:29:25 <sipa> hiw many people do (as long as it's sufficient for the network) doean't matter that much
 692 2014-01-13 10:29:27 <wumpus> running a full node should be decoupled from 'wallet' as much as possible
 693 2014-01-13 10:29:42 <TD> right, probably a lot of them are wanting the other things it provides (zero start/setup time, free tech support, etc)
 694 2014-01-13 10:29:53 <gmaxwell> I don't think I've encountered a single business at the local bitcoin meetup which is running a node. They ~all use coinbase or bc.i apis.
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 700 2014-01-13 10:30:27 <sipa> gmaxwell: which may be due to lack of good wallet api integration in bitcoind
 701 2014-01-13 10:30:35 <wumpus> gmaxwell: apart from exchanges and trading sites and such
 702 2014-01-13 10:30:38 <TD> or the total and complete lack of documentation, maybe?
 703 2014-01-13 10:30:40 <gmaxwell> heck, one told me that they tried to use bitcoinj but the resource requirements were too high. (something about java memory usage and large numbers of transactions?)
 704 2014-01-13 10:31:03 <sipa> though i guess in general, businesses like to depend on things they can sue if it goes wrong
 705 2014-01-13 10:31:05 <TD> if you arrived at bitcoin.org and didn't know anything, you would have no way to learn the bitcoind API even existed
 706 2014-01-13 10:31:07 <TD> let alone how to use it
 707 2014-01-13 10:31:17 <TD> gmaxwell: it stores all transactions in RAM, yes, not a database.
 708 2014-01-13 10:31:29 <TD> gmaxwell: it's not really designed for the merchant/payment processor use case.
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 710 2014-01-13 10:32:01 <TD> memory usage is sort of competing with finishing HD wallets for my time at the moment because some big wallets are running out of ram on android too
 711 2014-01-13 10:32:11 <TD> building an O(1) wallet in every dimension is quite tricky though
 712 2014-01-13 10:32:25 <sipa> not theoretically possible :)
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 714 2014-01-13 10:32:49 <TD> that's why i said it's quite tricky. be optimistic, man! we still aren't sure that P != NP, right?
 715 2014-01-13 10:32:52 <SomeoneWeird> but practically? :P
 716 2014-01-13 10:32:59 <gmaxwell> No one complained about that, though its true, and perhaps they would have if they'd gotten that far. As far as I can tell it was resource usage on VPS systems that threw people the most.  but also more than that, I got the impression that a lot of people who are doing web startups are really comfortable and familar with third party provided callbacky web service for services... they already use them for a bunch of things they do like email.
 717 2014-01-13 10:33:09 <TD> yeah
 718 2014-01-13 10:33:54 <TD> well you can certainly sync a wallet on a VPS no problem, but if you have lots of transactions then it'll run out of RAM and start swapping eventually. no clue at what level of transaction traffic that would occur though. if they run a bitcoind then i guess that'd already take most of the resources
 719 2014-01-13 10:34:11 <TD> "web startups" are just bad news for decentralisation all round really
 720 2014-01-13 10:34:23 <sipa> i think, businesses in general
 721 2014-01-13 10:34:26 <TD> the web is itself a decentralised system, but things within it are practically impossible to decentralise
 722 2014-01-13 10:34:37 <TD> and people just aren't used to thinking in that way
 723 2014-01-13 10:34:50 <gmaxwell> (this was surprising to me) in any case I'm not sure a lot of people would even look for bitcoind documents, like.. I think they don't all even know how to log into the unix shell their VPS provides. (I don't say this to criticize, it's just "run a daemon" is kind of outside of the workflow for some folks: apparently they use services that provide things like postgresql or mongo or memcached as a clicky option on a webpage)
 724 2014-01-13 10:35:08 <TD> right, things like heroku or app engine
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 728 2014-01-13 10:35:20 <TD> on one hand i love how easy these tools have made bringing up a quick web site or service that scales
 729 2014-01-13 10:35:38 <gmaxwell> yea, heroku was what one guy was using. This stuff is almost completely foreign to me, so it was a bit eye opening.
 730 2014-01-13 10:35:41 <TD> on the other hand outsourcing isn't really compatible with low-trust systems
 731 2014-01-13 10:35:54 <TD> coinbase is such a glaring SPOF it hurts. and based in california! argh
 732 2014-01-13 10:36:10 <lianj> yea, some wordpress shop accepting bitcoin (at least currently) will have a hard und unpleasent time running bitcoind himself and building upon that
 733 2014-01-13 10:36:17 <shesek> its pretty much impossible to run bitcoind on heroku, you have a filesystem that should be used as readonly
 734 2014-01-13 10:36:38 <gmaxwell> One person commented about needing to keep his personal bitcoins in many different web wallets "because you never know which one will get hacked next!" ... it was in humor but also serious.
 735 2014-01-13 10:36:40 <shesek> heroku isn't really meant for running that kind of stuff
 736 2014-01-13 10:36:44 <TD> well you obviously wouldn't do that. you would run bitcoind on a server you own and then have heroku call out to it over SSL. that's what gavin did for the faucet
 737 2014-01-13 10:36:47 <TD> (on app engine)
 738 2014-01-13 10:37:01 <warren> hi, could someone please mine testnet?
 739 2014-01-13 10:37:18 <wumpus> warren: just use -regtest man :)
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 741 2014-01-13 10:37:28 <sipa> a colleague had written some DHT database for finding peers, and suggested bitcoin could use it for bootstrapping
 742 2014-01-13 10:37:31 <TD> gmaxwell: yes what i take away from all of this is that we need way better documents and explanations on the website for developers. the current website rocks for end users but has zip for anyone who is wondering how to build a bitcoin startup
 743 2014-01-13 10:37:44 <sipa> he didn't have an answer to how to bootstrap the DHT though :p
 744 2014-01-13 10:37:53 <TD> lol
 745 2014-01-13 10:37:54 <gmaxwell> sipa: "but how do you find the dht peers" "oh it just connects to my webserver"
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 747 2014-01-13 10:38:52 <shesek> couldn't it be possible to (ab)use the bittorrent dht for bootstraping peers?
 748 2014-01-13 10:39:10 <shesek> not saying that its a particularly good idea... but should be possible
 749 2014-01-13 10:39:24 <gmaxwell> it's not necessary (bittorrent dht has the same bootstrapping problem too)
 750 2014-01-13 10:39:27 <TD> the current bootstrap mechanisms work fine
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 752 2014-01-13 10:40:21 <shesek> how does it currently work? dns and irc? (irc being off by default iirc)
 753 2014-01-13 10:40:35 <wumpus> for all the problems bitcoin has, bootstrapping isn't one
 754 2014-01-13 10:40:50 <TD> dns
 755 2014-01-13 10:40:54 <TD> irc is gone for a long time now already
 756 2014-01-13 10:41:03 <shesek> I'm not sure how fine that is... its probably the most centralized part of bitcoin right now
 757 2014-01-13 10:41:04 <warren> wumpus: not having used that before, I'm confused
 758 2014-01-13 10:41:05 <TD> there's also a hard coded list of seeds that we routinely forget to update
 759 2014-01-13 10:41:15 <warren> wumpus: -regtest seems to run mainnet
 760 2014-01-13 10:41:24 <shesek> someone gaining access to the dns server could quite easily abuse it
 761 2014-01-13 10:41:36 <wumpus> warren: on master it doesn't
 762 2014-01-13 10:41:43 <TD> warren: regtest mode is undocumented, unfortunately. it runs a variant of the main network params that allows you to mine new blocks instantly
 763 2014-01-13 10:41:48 <wumpus> warren: and that was just a matter of the GUI anyway
 764 2014-01-13 10:41:50 <shesek> returning specific nodes for dns queries from a specific merchant you're trying to double spend should be very doable
 765 2014-01-13 10:41:59 <TD> warren: bitcoinj supports it and i use it all the time, it's much more convenient for testing than the testnet
 766 2014-01-13 10:41:59 <warren> oh, there's no regtest in 0.8
 767 2014-01-13 10:42:06 <TD> you need master
 768 2014-01-13 10:42:21 <wumpus> oh, it wasn't in 0.8, right
 769 2014-01-13 10:44:00 <sipa> btw, we seem to have several changes in masternthat warrant a BIP
 770 2014-01-13 10:44:06 <sipa> like the reject message
 771 2014-01-13 10:44:15 <TD> i think gavinandresen wrote a bip for that already
 772 2014-01-13 10:44:35 <TD> what we REALLY need is someone who is going to sit down with saivann and help write a developer center, that can talk about regtest mode and stuff.
 773 2014-01-13 10:44:49 <TD> right now these useful tools are just passed down via lore and legend, like a medieval song about dragons
 774 2014-01-13 10:45:10 <TD> "men who came from across the ocean whisper of ..... a REGTEST MODE"
 775 2014-01-13 10:45:10 <sipa> yup!
 776 2014-01-13 10:45:26 <TD> "but nobody knows where exactly it lies. man and boy have perished in the search"
 777 2014-01-13 10:45:37 <sipa> "have you not heard about the regtest mode? how dare you call yourself a true knight of the bits!"
 778 2014-01-13 10:45:51 <TD> hah
 779 2014-01-13 10:45:56 <TD> in fairness
 780 2014-01-13 10:46:02 <TD> i'm the one who added that. and i didn't document it anywhere
 781 2014-01-13 10:46:15 <TD> so .... my bad.
 782 2014-01-13 10:46:23 <sipa> there was another change recently i couldn't find a bip for either
 783 2014-01-13 10:46:36 <TD> i think the reject bip might be a gist at the moment
 784 2014-01-13 10:46:53 <TD> hmm. jeremy spilman is kind of awesome
 785 2014-01-13 10:47:15 <TD> "it should probably work like this"  .... 24 hours later, "ok here's a full design doc, screenshots and implementation".
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 787 2014-01-13 10:48:03 <sipa> ah, the OP_RETURN output isn't documented anywhere either
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 789 2014-01-13 10:50:09 <TD> lol
 790 2014-01-13 10:50:14 <TD> no well the wiki has kinda broke
 791 2014-01-13 10:50:29 <TD> the anti-spam fee doesn't float
 792 2014-01-13 10:50:38 <TD> so we sort of lost our documentation space (or at least, it's not open to new users)
 793 2014-01-13 10:50:49 <TD> you know what? maybe we should ask around to find a volunteer to help with this stuff
 794 2014-01-13 10:51:09 <wumpus> agreed TD, the wiki is not useful anymore, requiring payment kind of killed off the flow of new users, which are generally those which contribute most new stuff to a wiki
 795 2014-01-13 10:51:22 <gmaxwell> TD: the wiki fee was recently reduced to be reasonable again. Actually magicaltux fixed it a while ago but no one updated the message. 0_o
 796 2014-01-13 10:51:37 <wumpus> quite a feat, together with killing spamming they killed contributions
 797 2014-01-13 10:51:42 <TD> oh, lol
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 799 2014-01-13 10:52:09 <TD> that's sort of sums up the documentation problem
 800 2014-01-13 10:52:14 <sipa> wumpus: the wiki was already much outdated before that
 801 2014-01-13 10:52:15 <gmaxwell> wumpus: thats basically a norm for wiki anti-baddness measures. Most of the things people try scare away _more_ good users than bad ones.
 802 2014-01-13 10:52:15 <TD> "we made updating the documentation cheaper, but didn't document it"
 803 2014-01-13 10:52:20 <gmaxwell> hahaha
 804 2014-01-13 10:52:26 <sipa> TD: LOL
 805 2014-01-13 10:52:50 <TD> wumpus: i spent years trying to find the right balance there for google.com account signup. it's a super hard problem, especially for low commitment users.
 806 2014-01-13 10:52:59 <wumpus> I did update some RPC documentation here and there at some time, but it seemed like no one was reading it anyway
 807 2014-01-13 10:52:59 <gmaxwell> Yea, the wiki was wrong and outdated early in 2011.
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 809 2014-01-13 10:53:13 <gmaxwell> wumpus: they'll only read it when its wrong and outdated, no doubt.
 810 2014-01-13 10:53:23 <TD> wumpus: like, we let users skip the captcha if they want
 811 2014-01-13 10:53:41 <TD> (and the captcha is now trivially easy)
 812 2014-01-13 10:53:55 <wumpus> TD: keeping wikis spam free is a super hard problem, agreed,  especially if you don't have a lot of voluntary moderators
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 814 2014-01-13 10:54:04 <gmaxwell> I suspect it would be a lot better with just some 'project management' .. I fix things from time to time as I stumble into them, but I'm always amazed at "oh god, it says this? man this is outdated"
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 816 2014-01-13 10:54:16 <TD> it's a nice thing for someone who wants to get involved but isn't sure how
 817 2014-01-13 10:54:22 * TD feels inspired and will make a forum post
 818 2014-01-13 10:54:39 <wumpus> the wiki also isn't clear on who is involved with what
 819 2014-01-13 10:54:58 <gmaxwell> I think the bitcoin payment also did a lot to stop the scam link insertions (e.g. people changing links to services with links to malware loading / password grabbing knockoffs) which isn't quite the spam problem.
 820 2014-01-13 10:55:00 <wumpus> like, who you have to ask to get stuff changed around or renamed or deleted etc
 821 2014-01-13 10:55:59 <wumpus> gmaxwell: developer documentation doesn't suffer from the malware problem as much as service lists, I guess
 822 2014-01-13 10:56:23 <wumpus> maybe having it all on one wiki is not good
 823 2014-01-13 10:56:26 <gmaxwell> I was kinda surprised that the fees helped.
 824 2014-01-13 10:57:12 <gmaxwell> wumpus: well it certantly would be technically possible to make the fee required thing only apply to semi-protected pages. Probably would just be a config change.
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 826 2014-01-13 10:57:34 <sipa> somehow i don't feel encouraged to write stuff on the wiki
 827 2014-01-13 10:57:37 Moniseven has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 828 2014-01-13 10:57:43 <gmaxwell> (Mediawiki can flag pages with varrious levels of protected, there is a semi-protected level that is editable by anyone in a configured group, the group could be set to the paid-a-fee level)
 829 2014-01-13 10:57:45 <sipa> it doesn't feel like i'm actually helping someone
 830 2014-01-13 10:58:04 <TD> one of the reasons PHP was successful is that their API docs all have comment sections
 831 2014-01-13 10:58:07 <wumpus> sipa: I have the same feeling
 832 2014-01-13 10:58:07 <sipa> i write a lot on the bitcoin stackexchange tgoufh
 833 2014-01-13 10:58:12 <TD> so people can discuss each page easily, and you see the comments immediately
 834 2014-01-13 10:58:14 <gmaxwell> sipa: it gets read by a lot of people though. I know because I see people show up with crazy configuration files copied out of it… :P
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 836 2014-01-13 10:58:27 <sipa> and i sometimes see people convert my stackexchange answers to wiki pages
 837 2014-01-13 10:58:29 <TD> makes it feel more like a community than a cold piece of data
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 839 2014-01-13 11:00:31 <TD> i spent a couple of years at google developing a javascript obfusaction and browser-proof system
 840 2014-01-13 11:00:40 <TD> which proved to be very effective at silently detecting bots
 841 2014-01-13 11:01:02 <TD> i wish we could use it on the wiki and then just scrap the fee, but unfortunately it's not a public api
 842 2014-01-13 11:01:23 <gmaxwell> TD: still would do nothing for the malware/phishing links.
 843 2014-01-13 11:01:37 <TD> no, but presumably those are much lower volume and more amenable to manual review
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 845 2014-01-13 11:02:36 <gmaxwell> yea, and the fee could just be flagged on high profile pages that get hit with those things perhaps.
 846 2014-01-13 11:03:32 <TD> maybe one day i'll try a public reimplementation
 847 2014-01-13 11:10:04 <sipa> "bitcoin gambling guide added you on google+"
 848 2014-01-13 11:10:46 <TD> yes, well, i don't work on it anymore :)
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 852 2014-01-13 11:18:56 <warren> wumpus: crap ... master + watchonly left the block index in some state where 0.8 thinks it's corrupted, master can read it
 853 2014-01-13 11:20:03 <sipa> watchonly has nothing to do with thr block index
 854 2014-01-13 11:20:20 <warren> sipa: yeah, something else in master made it incompatible
 855 2014-01-13 11:20:21 <sipa> but i have heard about cases where 0.8 can't read an index that master can
 856 2014-01-13 11:20:53 c0rw1n has joined
 857 2014-01-13 11:20:57 <sipa> maybe leveldb upgrade?
 858 2014-01-13 11:21:08 <sipa> that shouldn't happen
 859 2014-01-13 11:21:18 <gwb3> QOTD JAN 13 2014: “People of accomplishment rarely sit back and let things happen to them. They go out and happen to things.” - Leonardo da Vinci
 860 2014-01-13 11:24:25 <warren> dunno the cause
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 863 2014-01-13 11:29:25 <warren> sipa: whatever it is, it's incompatible now
 864 2014-01-13 11:30:04 <sipa> for every wallet?
 865 2014-01-13 11:30:11 <sipa> of just some specific wallet?
 866 2014-01-13 11:30:13 <warren> sipa: for one testnet wallet I just tried
 867 2014-01-13 11:30:24 <sipa> file a bug
 868 2014-01-13 11:30:31 <sipa> please :)
 869 2014-01-13 11:30:43 <warren> i'll try to get more details tomorrow before I file
 870 2014-01-13 11:32:01 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
 871 2014-01-13 11:32:25 <wumpus> the wallet is incompatible too?
 872 2014-01-13 11:32:45 <warren> I only know the 0.8 thinks the index is corrupt
 873 2014-01-13 11:32:50 <warren> i'm out of time
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 876 2014-01-13 11:35:17 <sipa> ah, right, the index
 877 2014-01-13 11:35:24 <sipa> i was confused
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 880 2014-01-13 11:41:43 <sipa> ugh, that stealth payment idea relies on op_return data?
 881 2014-01-13 11:42:06 <sipa> why can't that metadata be sent as part of the payment?
 882 2014-01-13 11:43:09 <TD> in the payment protocol instantiation it probably can
 883 2014-01-13 11:43:15 <TD> remember it came out of the idea of a new type of address
 884 2014-01-13 11:43:52 <sipa> i think we should just try to get rid of static addresses
 885 2014-01-13 11:43:54 <TD> hmmm, there's now a pure java implementation of a tor client. very useful.
 886 2014-01-13 11:43:59 <TD> runs on android too
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 888 2014-01-13 11:45:09 <sipa> making it easier to have static addresses with better privacy properties may be hard already to get adopted, and make it even harder to get rid of using the p2p mechanism as payment transport
 889 2014-01-13 11:45:19 * TD -> lunch
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 894 2014-01-13 11:49:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: there are just too many cases where static addresses are so blindingly easy that people will keep using them. I dunno that stealth addresses are the answer... but.
 895 2014-01-13 11:49:35 <gmaxwell> (Personally I'm not super keen on schemes which are too dependent on narrowing the kind of scriptpubkey people can use)
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 897 2014-01-13 11:49:54 <sipa> yeah, if they were easy to deploy, they could easily cover that case
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 900 2014-01-13 11:50:40 <gmaxwell> e.g. any of the bizallion and one donation addresses out there.
 901 2014-01-13 11:50:49 <sipa> but this will already take effort, costs extra data in the blockchain, doesn't solve the reliance on the chain as transport, and is limited (iirc) to simple (not script) payments
 902 2014-01-13 11:52:18 <gmaxwell> yes some effort— in particular things need to know how to send to it,  only an extra ecc point,  I'm not sure that chain transport is harmful here, and yes its limited— which is what I like least about it.
 903 2014-01-13 11:52:56 <gmaxwell> the effort thing is mostly "no one will use an address type for donations that can't be paid to via every site and client imaginable"
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 905 2014-01-13 11:54:28 <sipa> (chain transport = no refund address, no memo, no notification to receiver, requires sender to be online until confirmation, ...)
 906 2014-01-13 11:54:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|13:08:36 <warren> wumpus: crap ... master + watchonly left the block index in some state where 0.8 thinks it's corrupted, master can read it
 907 2014-01-13 11:54:48 ValicekB has joined
 908 2014-01-13 11:54:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|13:08:36 <warren> wumpus: crap ... master + watchonly left the block index in some state where 0.8 thinks it's corrupted, master can read it
 909 2014-01-13 11:54:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I think that's just master
 910 2014-01-13 11:55:04 <wumpus> ?
 911 2014-01-13 11:55:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Not master+watchonly
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 915 2014-01-13 11:56:21 <gmaxwell> sipa: yes, but — what do you want for usecases which are really one way?   ... and I note the payment protocol doesn't guarantee any of that because it lets you make a half duplex payment. :(
 916 2014-01-13 11:56:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I was seeing that the other day (had master running to update my bootstrap.dat, and 0.8.6 reported corruption when I tried to go back)
 917 2014-01-13 11:57:53 <sipa> gmaxwell: half duplex?
 918 2014-01-13 11:58:15 <gmaxwell> sipa: you can recieve a payment request and just send the transaction to the public network.
 919 2014-01-13 11:58:45 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: did you see where it was reporting corruption?
 920 2014-01-13 11:59:07 <sipa> gmaxwell: you should still send the payment to the receiver
 921 2014-01-13 11:59:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: on launch, "error something or other. Do you want to rebuild the block database?"
 922 2014-01-13 12:00:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Didn't dig too deeply
 923 2014-01-13 12:00:46 <gmaxwell> sipa: nothing makes you and your connection might fail, so you can't actually build your business around the assumption that it'll work. (e.g. expect to always get refunds that way)... as far as I understand it.
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 926 2014-01-13 12:01:22 <sipa> gmaxwell: that's broken
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 929 2014-01-13 12:01:56 <sipa> imho, if a payment uri ispresent, it must be the only way of sending the payment
 930 2014-01-13 12:02:00 <sipa> bah
 931 2014-01-13 12:02:44 <sipa> otherwise you may end up with a transaction that you have no idea what it is for, and cannot refund
 932 2014-01-13 12:03:16 <sipa> inthink the payment protocol is pretty useless without being able to rely on that payment message being delivered
 933 2014-01-13 12:03:42 <gmaxwell> well maybe I misunderstand it? I was sort of happy to let other people worry about it, esp since it's not useful to anyone who isn't running a secure webserver. (e.g. I can't even use it to give donation addresses out for me because I don't have a webserver that I'd trust to give out addresses to pay to)
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 936 2014-01-13 12:05:09 <sipa> well, if you can't rely on the payment being delivered, what is the point of having it in the first place?
 937 2014-01-13 12:05:32 <sipa> why put a memo and a refund address in it, if you don't even know if the receiver is going to see it?
 938 2014-01-13 12:06:00 <gmaxwell> it still has benefits in the forward direction, e.g. more details in the transaction log on the payer.
 939 2014-01-13 12:06:41 <sipa> meh
 940 2014-01-13 12:06:51 <sipa> it's the receiver that is the problem
 941 2014-01-13 12:07:21 <sipa> if the payment message can't be relied upon, i think it's a lot easier to just drop it
 942 2014-01-13 12:07:48 <sipa> and make no attempt at all to fix the problems of using the chain as transport
 943 2014-01-13 12:07:51 <sipa> bah
 944 2014-01-13 12:08:26 <TD> FYI in bitcoinj i am going to only be submitting via the requested URL endpoint (if there is one)
 945 2014-01-13 12:08:33 <TD> and not via the p2p network at all in such cases
 946 2014-01-13 12:08:41 <TD> at least, that's the plan
 947 2014-01-13 12:09:01 <sipa> and use stealth addresses as privacy fix for the broken transport mechanism
 948 2014-01-13 12:09:01 <TD> the current code doesn't quite close the loop on that yet, but it will
 949 2014-01-13 12:09:24 <TD> no. they're just a way to simplify things in the case that you want to make a payment repeatedly.
 950 2014-01-13 12:09:30 <TD> for example, consider a subscription service
 951 2014-01-13 12:09:49 <TD> you could have expiring payment requests and ask the user to fetch a new one each time. but it's better to have deterministic or stealth addresses
 952 2014-01-13 12:09:56 <TD> anyway, let's see how it goes
 953 2014-01-13 12:13:23 <TD> i'm thinking that a simple site that hosts payment request files on a short URL is super easy to whip up, should be cheap to host (cheap enough to fund with some community-specific ads), and a simple REST API can be standardised so wallets can automatically upload there
 954 2014-01-13 12:13:30 tmsk has joined
 955 2014-01-13 12:14:12 <TD> then a wallet app would just have a label in the UI that says "Pay to sipa" and you can drag/drop it into any rich text/html editing field. the link would be,  "bitcoin:1....az34f?r=https://pay.to/{a}" or something
 956 2014-01-13 12:14:15 <TD> which should still fit in a QRcode
 957 2014-01-13 12:14:31 <TD> or indeed, is small enough to be steganographically encoded into a social network profile photo
 958 2014-01-13 12:14:39 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
 959 2014-01-13 12:14:39 <TD> see? it all hangs together :-)
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 964 2014-01-13 12:20:49 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=413502.0 < what is it with people and the omg urgent change the protocol now stuff over minutia.
 965 2014-01-13 12:24:31 <gmaxwell> "(cheap enough to fund"  by getting "hacked" eventually, of course.
 966 2014-01-13 12:24:35 <gmaxwell> :P
 967 2014-01-13 12:25:21 Charlie has left ()
 968 2014-01-13 12:26:20 <sipa> TD: doesn't change the fact that refund/memo (and pretty much the whole payment message) are useless if it can't be relied upon
 969 2014-01-13 12:26:44 <sipa> both sender and receiver need to have an alternative fornthem in that case
 970 2014-01-13 12:26:51 <sipa> * for them
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 993 2014-01-13 13:31:08 <jgarzik> sipa, getwalletinfo, getnetinfo
 994 2014-01-13 13:31:11 <jgarzik> indeed
 995 2014-01-13 13:31:35 <jgarzik> sipa, however, there is the "annoying" problem that getinfo's collection of information is quite useful
 996 2014-01-13 13:31:54 <jgarzik> i.e. I use getinfo all the time, in lieu of calling multiple RPCs (inthe future) for the same info
 997 2014-01-13 13:33:04 <wumpus> yes, if you use the rpc interactively, getinfo is useful
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1005 2014-01-13 13:43:56 <wumpus> maybe bitcoin-cli could do client-side emulation of it :p
1006 2014-01-13 13:47:27 <sipa> we could also implement createrawtransaction and validateaddress and hdderive in bitcoin-cli :D
1007 2014-01-13 13:47:42 <wumpus> hehe
1008 2014-01-13 13:47:52 <sipa> i'm only half kidding
1009 2014-01-13 13:49:52 shamoon has joined
1010 2014-01-13 13:50:08 <shamoon> how does a coinbase transaction have a fee associated with it? http://testnet.btclook.com/txn/b0a5c097a3301acde48c85d8eda3408014f3472cadf2419eb399734bd70d526e
1011 2014-01-13 13:50:14 <shamoon> who pays that fee and where does it come from?
1012 2014-01-13 13:50:31 macboz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1013 2014-01-13 13:50:41 <sipa> shamoon: it's the total fees in that block
1014 2014-01-13 13:50:52 <sipa> that get claimed by the miner
1015 2014-01-13 13:50:55 <sipa> (i presume)
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1017 2014-01-13 13:51:02 <shamoon> i thought each transaction carried a fee?
1018 2014-01-13 13:51:07 <sipa> yes
1019 2014-01-13 13:51:13 <shamoon> well - or COULD carry a fee
1020 2014-01-13 13:51:21 <sipa> the coinbase transaction itself doesn't have a fee, as it doesn't have real inputs
1021 2014-01-13 13:51:30 <sipa> so fee in the technical sense doesn't mean anything
1022 2014-01-13 13:51:43 <sipa> but i presume here they're talking about the fees _claimed by_ the coinbase
1023 2014-01-13 13:51:53 <sipa> not _payd by_
1024 2014-01-13 13:51:54 <shamoon> so the other transactions in the block won't have fees?
1025 2014-01-13 13:51:59 <sipa> ...
1026 2014-01-13 13:51:59 <shamoon> since it's included in the coinbase?
1027 2014-01-13 13:52:05 andytoshi has joined
1028 2014-01-13 13:52:06 <sipa> sigh
1029 2014-01-13 13:52:22 <shamoon> sorry for the dumb Q's so early in the AM
1030 2014-01-13 13:52:22 <sipa> the output of a coinbase is allowed to be subsidy + fees paid in its block
1031 2014-01-13 13:52:40 <sipa> so this is presumably a block with transactions that pay 0.02 BTC in fees, total
1032 2014-01-13 13:52:46 <sipa> and the coinbase has an output of 50.02
1033 2014-01-13 13:52:52 <sipa> it's how fees work
1034 2014-01-13 13:52:57 ValicekB has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1035 2014-01-13 13:53:04 <sipa> normal transactions pay them, the coinbase claims them
1036 2014-01-13 13:53:15 <shamoon> so this transaction
1037 2014-01-13 13:53:16 <shamoon> http://testnet.btclook.com/txn/55bc02f486beb830455dda8c3d9b9e56488780cee01f2d338244e0cba41b72c3
1038 2014-01-13 13:53:18 <shamoon> for example..
1039 2014-01-13 13:53:18 <sipa> 0.002
1040 2014-01-13 13:53:24 <shamoon> if the input was larger than the 2 outputs
1041 2014-01-13 13:53:45 <shamoon> that would be a fee
1042 2014-01-13 13:53:46 <sipa> fee = output value - input value
1043 2014-01-13 13:53:48 <shamoon> or part of the fee
1044 2014-01-13 13:53:53 <shamoon> err - that's what i meant
1045 2014-01-13 13:53:58 <sipa> max coinbase output = subsidy + sum of fees paid by transactions in the same block
1046 2014-01-13 13:53:59 <shamoon> if the 2 outputs were larger than the input
1047 2014-01-13 13:54:27 <shamoon> so if i want to count the total fees of a block, i can either count the coinbase - subsidy OR add the outputs - inputs of each tx
1048 2014-01-13 13:54:30 <shamoon> and it should be the same thing
1049 2014-01-13 13:54:39 <CodeShark> you mean inputs > outputs
1050 2014-01-13 13:54:40 <sipa> well
1051 2014-01-13 13:54:48 <sipa> the coinbase isn't required to claim all fees
1052 2014-01-13 13:54:49 <CodeShark> inputs < outputs -> tx is invalid
1053 2014-01-13 13:54:55 <sipa> in which case the total money supply is decreased
1054 2014-01-13 13:54:59 <CodeShark> except for coinbase
1055 2014-01-13 13:55:25 <sipa> so depending on whether you want to count "fees paid by transactions in block" or "fees claimed by coinbase", that may or may not be the right way
1056 2014-01-13 13:55:35 <sipa> miners would be silly of course not to claim all fees, but it's allowed
1057 2014-01-13 13:55:39 <shamoon> so those 2 numbers can be different
1058 2014-01-13 13:55:47 <shamoon> i wonder if they ever are
1059 2014-01-13 13:56:09 <CodeShark> too bad I don't have my blockchain database up to date
1060 2014-01-13 13:56:17 <CodeShark> would be an interesting query indeed
1061 2014-01-13 13:57:14 smash_ has joined
1062 2014-01-13 13:57:21 <sipa> shamoon: see block 124724 in mainnet
1063 2014-01-13 13:57:41 smash_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1064 2014-01-13 13:57:46 <shamoon> negative fees
1065 2014-01-13 13:58:12 <shamoon> the subsidy claimed is only49.99999999
1066 2014-01-13 13:58:25 <shamoon> but in theory, it could have been 50.01
1067 2014-01-13 13:58:27 <shamoon> right?
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1070 2014-01-13 14:02:39 <sipa> correct
1071 2014-01-13 14:03:37 <shamoon> so a total of -0.00999999 are now gone from existence
1072 2014-01-13 14:03:53 <sipa> 0.01000001
1073 2014-01-13 14:04:02 <shamoon> yup - you right
1074 2014-01-13 14:04:13 <shamoon> so nodes spent 0.01000001 in fees
1075 2014-01-13 14:04:18 <shamoon> that were never clained
1076 2014-01-13 14:04:18 <shamoon> well
1077 2014-01-13 14:04:21 <shamoon> they spent .01 in fees
1078 2014-01-13 14:04:24 <shamoon> thta were never claimed
1079 2014-01-13 14:04:41 <sipa> there's over 10 BTC of such lost fees/subsidy, btw
1080 2014-01-13 14:04:42 <shamoon> and the miner only took 49.99999999 instead of the 50 he was allowed
1081 2014-01-13 14:04:52 <shamoon> wow
1082 2014-01-13 14:04:54 <shamoon> thanks sipa!
1083 2014-01-13 14:05:20 <Happzz> if i broadcast a falsely signed tx, would it spread across the network or stopped beforehand?
1084 2014-01-13 14:05:27 agricocb has joined
1085 2014-01-13 14:05:47 <sipa> Happzz: every node you send it to will disconnect you immediately, and ignore the transaction
1086 2014-01-13 14:06:07 <Happzz> sipa how do scammers broadcast invalid transactions then
1087 2014-01-13 14:06:16 <Happzz> other than double spending, that is
1088 2014-01-13 14:06:23 <sipa> i have no knowledge of that happening
1089 2014-01-13 14:06:48 <Happzz> i recall seeing transactions that were broadcasted but never confirmed before they were invalid that way or another
1090 2014-01-13 14:06:55 <sipa> bugs, probably
1091 2014-01-13 14:07:11 <sipa> and unlikely to be invalid signatures
1092 2014-01-13 14:07:16 <Happzz> and double spending scammers just broadcast it twice, one time with more fees so it confirms faster?
1093 2014-01-13 14:07:26 <sipa> there can be other things wrong with a transaction that don't make it immediately obvious they are invalid
1094 2014-01-13 14:07:35 <Happzz> like what?
1095 2014-01-13 14:07:55 <sipa> referencing a non-existing (or fully spent) input for example
1096 2014-01-13 14:08:13 <Happzz> that would be broadcasted even though invalid?
1097 2014-01-13 14:08:21 <Happzz> i'd assume the nodes check for that
1098 2014-01-13 14:09:11 <sipa> not broadcasted
1099 2014-01-13 14:09:17 <sipa> but not obviously invalid either
1100 2014-01-13 14:09:28 <sipa> the inputs may be simply not yet known to the receiver
1101 2014-01-13 14:09:41 ValicekB has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1102 2014-01-13 14:09:47 <Happzz> i.e. unconfirmed inputs
1103 2014-01-13 14:09:48 <Happzz> ?
1104 2014-01-13 14:10:01 <sipa> not just unconfirmed
1105 2014-01-13 14:10:06 <sipa> unknown
1106 2014-01-13 14:10:51 <Happzz> okay.
1107 2014-01-13 14:10:59 <Happzz> on another topic, how secure is an encrypted wallet.dat
1108 2014-01-13 14:11:35 <Happzz> say an attacker gains access to it, how long would it take him to crack it
1109 2014-01-13 14:12:15 <Happzz> assuming a 13+ chars password
1110 2014-01-13 14:12:24 <sipa> depends how guessable it is
1111 2014-01-13 14:12:34 <Happzz> it's not guessable. it'll need to be bruteforced
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1113 2014-01-13 14:12:46 <sipa> those are not mutually exclusive
1114 2014-01-13 14:13:00 <Happzz> (just wondering if i should seriously consider cold storage or placing the wallet inside a truecrypt container or something)
1115 2014-01-13 14:13:18 <sipa> it will take several milliseconds at least of CPU time per attempt
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1117 2014-01-13 14:14:24 <Happzz> and lowercase chars + numbers is 34 chars or so
1118 2014-01-13 14:14:40 <Happzz> 34^13 ?
1119 2014-01-13 14:14:43 <sipa> is it truly uniformly random 13 character password?
1120 2014-01-13 14:14:50 <sipa> or did a human invent it?
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1122 2014-01-13 14:15:09 <Happzz> i did. it's not truely random. but it's random enough, it's not something you could come up with just like that
1123 2014-01-13 14:15:44 <sipa> ;;calc 13*log(34)/log(2)
1124 2014-01-13 14:15:44 <gribble> 66.1370169363
1125 2014-01-13 14:16:08 <sipa> i don't think i can come up with that many bits of randomness
1126 2014-01-13 14:16:23 <Happzz> english letters and numbers, there's not much to come up with
1127 2014-01-13 14:16:37 <sipa> please don't make the mistake of thinking "it's not trivial, so the only way to crack is to try everything"
1128 2014-01-13 14:16:46 <sipa> human are horribly bad at guessing how random something is
1129 2014-01-13 14:17:01 <Happzz> how else can you crack it
1130 2014-01-13 14:17:03 <scoofy> " it's not truely random. " <- dat
1131 2014-01-13 14:17:14 <Happzz> it's either guessable or needs to be bruteforced
1132 2014-01-13 14:17:17 <scoofy> the attacker can think with your mind
1133 2014-01-13 14:17:17 <sipa> Happzz: by trying more common patterns first
1134 2014-01-13 14:17:39 <scoofy> for example he tries password combinations with 5-8 chars and 2-3 numbers in the end first
1135 2014-01-13 14:17:48 <scoofy> because that's a common scenario
1136 2014-01-13 14:18:00 <Happzz> right, so i'll fall into this, but not nearly as obviously as what you said
1137 2014-01-13 14:18:06 <Happzz> it's not THAT random then.
1138 2014-01-13 14:18:14 <sipa> yeah, i'm not saying you have a bad password
1139 2014-01-13 14:18:35 <sipa> just that immediately saying "so 34^13 attempts" is very unlikely to be even close to the truth
1140 2014-01-13 14:18:47 <Happzz> yeah, i understand that now.
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1142 2014-01-13 14:19:28 <Happzz> i guess i actually do need to take better measures
1143 2014-01-13 14:19:42 <scoofy> not unlikely.
1144 2014-01-13 14:19:53 <Happzz> somehow i don't trust cold storage. i can easily imagine the piece of paper being lost
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1146 2014-01-13 14:20:58 <Apocalyptic> Happzz, cold storage does not mean piece of paper...
1147 2014-01-13 14:21:03 CheckDavid has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1148 2014-01-13 14:21:09 <Happzz> it means offline
1149 2014-01-13 14:21:14 <Apocalyptic> correct
1150 2014-01-13 14:21:20 <Happzz> Apocalyptic i actually trust a flashdisk even less than a piece of paper :p
1151 2014-01-13 14:21:30 <scoofy> disks fail
1152 2014-01-13 14:21:30 <Happzz> shit tends to stop working by random
1153 2014-01-13 14:21:37 <Apocalyptic> heh, so do I, use multiple flash disks
1154 2014-01-13 14:21:50 <Happzz> Apocalyptic i don't trust them. i just don't.
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1156 2014-01-13 14:22:15 <CodeShark> the most tried and tested method for preserving information over long periods of time is engraving it into a piece of hard metal or stone
1157 2014-01-13 14:22:18 <CodeShark> :)
1158 2014-01-13 14:22:39 <Apocalyptic> if I have a wallet.dat on 3 usb keys let's say it's pretty improbable they would all malfunction
1159 2014-01-13 14:22:40 <Happzz> qrcode engraved on a metal plate. nice1
1160 2014-01-13 14:22:56 <scoofy> Apocalyptic: what if all 3 are stolen?
1161 2014-01-13 14:22:58 <Happzz> Apocalyptic i had 4 of them fail just like that, all of the sudden. i don't trust them.
1162 2014-01-13 14:23:11 <Apocalyptic> scoofy, each in different location of course
1163 2014-01-13 14:23:25 <Apocalyptic> in bank-safe level security
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1165 2014-01-13 14:26:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|15:55:27 <sipa> Happzz: every node you send it to will disconnect you immediately, and ignore the transaction
1166 2014-01-13 14:26:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is that for any transaction where the scriptSig fails to validate?
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1171 2014-01-13 14:38:31 <CodeShark> speaking of which, trying to figure out the easiest way to prevent bitcoind from disconnecting localhost
1172 2014-01-13 14:38:44 CheckDavid has joined
1173 2014-01-13 14:38:47 <CodeShark> or to prevent it from disconnecting a particular endpoint (ip address)
1174 2014-01-13 14:39:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|CodeShark: IIRC git master (or maybe a PR) has ban list manipulation
1175 2014-01-13 14:39:39 <brisque> CodeShark: this looks promising https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3403
1176 2014-01-13 14:39:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Including a whitelist
1177 2014-01-13 14:40:41 <CodeShark> this isn't just "cannot be banned" - this is "if I'm running out of resources or am reaching the connection limit, disconnect other peers before disconnecting these"
1178 2014-01-13 14:41:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|CodeShark: ah
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1180 2014-01-13 14:41:31 <CodeShark> additionally "If I've already reached my connection limit and any of these peers tries to connect, force disconnection of other peers to free up resources"
1181 2014-01-13 14:41:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is addnode insufficient?
1182 2014-01-13 14:41:43 <CodeShark> no, because we're talking inbound connections
1183 2014-01-13 14:42:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah
1184 2014-01-13 14:42:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So, "give this peer priority when connecting to me"?
1185 2014-01-13 14:42:29 <CodeShark> yes
1186 2014-01-13 14:42:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Don't think that exists yet
1187 2014-01-13 14:43:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But as always, Patches Welcome (TM)
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1256 2014-01-13 16:23:02 <sipa> wumpus: currently, when payment a payment request in Qt, what happens if sending the payment fails?
1257 2014-01-13 16:23:08 <sipa> does it get stored and retried?
1258 2014-01-13 16:23:59 Starduster has joined
1259 2014-01-13 16:24:52 dmanderson has joined
1260 2014-01-13 16:25:08 <dmanderson> anyone around familiar with the windows build process, and can give me pointers on leveldb
1261 2014-01-13 16:26:03 <sipa> dmanderson: you can look at the gitian descriptors, to see which commands they use to build everything
1262 2014-01-13 16:27:47 mitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1264 2014-01-13 16:28:32 <wumpus> sipa: if anything fails, the payment should remain in the send list in the UI
1265 2014-01-13 16:28:51 <dmanderson> thanks sipa
1266 2014-01-13 16:29:01 ZG has quit (caktux_!~caktux@dsl-173-248-230-158.acanac.net|Quit: ZG|caktux_)
1267 2014-01-13 16:29:03 <sipa> wumpus: but is it stored in the wallet?
1268 2014-01-13 16:29:12 <wumpus> no, payment requests are never stored in the wallet at this point
1269 2014-01-13 16:29:17 <sipa> bah
1270 2014-01-13 16:29:20 mitz has joined
1271 2014-01-13 16:29:40 <sipa> ok, thanks
1272 2014-01-13 16:30:37 <twizt> what are u working on
1273 2014-01-13 16:30:40 <wumpus> there is no way to store arbitrary data in the wallet from the UI (#3281 was a stab at that)
1274 2014-01-13 16:30:48 <twizt> sipa*
1275 2014-01-13 16:31:28 Guest16631 has joined
1276 2014-01-13 16:31:40 <sipa> wumpus: sure there is
1277 2014-01-13 16:31:48 Guest16631 has left ()
1278 2014-01-13 16:31:52 <sipa> wumpus: CWalletTxt has a map with custom data
1279 2014-01-13 16:32:03 <wumpus> sipa: per transaction, sure
1280 2014-01-13 16:32:12 <sipa> yes, this is data associated with a transaction
1281 2014-01-13 16:32:18 <wumpus> sipa: but if the payment requests fails there is no transaction yet
1282 2014-01-13 16:32:30 <sipa> wumpus: i don't care about that case
1283 2014-01-13 16:32:43 <sipa> i care about failing to submit the payment, after the transaction is constructed
1284 2014-01-13 16:32:56 <wumpus> ok, yes that would be possible already
1285 2014-01-13 16:33:08 <wumpus> storing the payment request would also be nice for showing it in the transactions list
1286 2014-01-13 16:33:27 <sipa> the BIP says "URL where a payment may be sent"; i consider that broken
1287 2014-01-13 16:33:28 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1288 2014-01-13 16:33:45 <sipa> if it's optional, the receiver can't rely on it, and needs an alternative anyway
1289 2014-01-13 16:33:55 <sipa> which voids the need for having the payment in the first place
1290 2014-01-13 16:34:39 <wumpus> yes,I agree it seems to make little sense to have it optional
1291 2014-01-13 16:35:29 <sipa> imho, if a pyament url is present, a wallet shouldn't even broadcast a transaction on the p2p network, to reduce the risk that the transaction gets received but the payment isn't (though, admittedly, this cannot be relied upon in any case)
1292 2014-01-13 16:36:46 <gavinandresen> Howdy everybody.  I'm back home, kids are back in school, life is getting normal again.  Well, aside from the normal craziness.
1293 2014-01-13 16:36:53 <wumpus> welcome back gavinandresen
1294 2014-01-13 16:37:01 <sipa> gavinandresen: wb!
1295 2014-01-13 16:37:21 <gavinandresen> wumpus: thanks for fixing the OSX build today, works for me now.
1296 2014-01-13 16:37:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen: Welcome back!
1297 2014-01-13 16:37:27 <wumpus> great
1298 2014-01-13 16:37:39 cads has joined
1299 2014-01-13 16:38:09 <gavinandresen> I've been thinking of a 0.9 TODO list… which would probably best be just issues tagged with the 0.9 milestone.
1300 2014-01-13 16:38:18 <gavinandresen> New checkpoint....
1301 2014-01-13 16:38:26 <gavinandresen> Update the hard-coded seed nodes...
1302 2014-01-13 16:38:48 <jgarzik_> gavinandresen, wb
1303 2014-01-13 16:38:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BTW, I just retested and can confirm that as of commit 549e69a558a045829d2910c5d172e91f49101a31, running master will do something to the db that will cause 0.8.6 to refuse to open it
1304 2014-01-13 16:38:50 <gavinandresen> Anything else that needs doing?  Translations?
1305 2014-01-13 16:39:02 dredredre has joined
1306 2014-01-13 16:39:16 <wumpus> gavinandresen: a last-minute transifex pull is always good
1307 2014-01-13 16:39:17 <jgarzik_> michagogo|cloud, ditto
1308 2014-01-13 16:39:20 <jgarzik_> see that here too
1309 2014-01-13 16:39:24 <sipa> gavinandresen: jgarzik_ just created a new bootstrap.dat
1310 2014-01-13 16:39:32 <jgarzik_> @279,000
1311 2014-01-13 16:39:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Nothing informative in the log, either:
1312 2014-01-13 16:39:39 <sipa> gavinandresen: i'm fine with a new checkpoint 2016 blocks after that, which is in a few days
1313 2014-01-13 16:39:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/U1ltcdTJ
1314 2014-01-13 16:40:18 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: wut, that commit changes nothing to the database, just some frontend change
1315 2014-01-13 16:40:26 <gavinandresen> sipa: ACK, I'll open an issue to checkpoint block 281,016 (or thereabouts)
1316 2014-01-13 16:40:33 Burrito has joined
1317 2014-01-13 16:40:43 <jgarzik_> michagogo|cloud, can you do a proper bisect?  That is a merge commit.
1318 2014-01-13 16:40:44 <sipa> gavinandresen: i would like to see #3514 and #3516 in 0.9; syncing from random peers is just awful right now
1319 2014-01-13 16:40:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: I wasn't referring to that commit
1320 2014-01-13 16:40:52 <jgarzik_> +1 sipa
1321 2014-01-13 16:41:07 <jgarzik_> michagogo|cloud, can you file a github issue, please?
1322 2014-01-13 16:41:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I just meant that the master I'm using happens to have been at that commit
1323 2014-01-13 16:41:12 <gavinandresen> sipa: do they just need review+testing?
1324 2014-01-13 16:41:14 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: oh, I thought you bisected it to that one, right
1325 2014-01-13 16:41:17 <sipa> gavinandresen: yes
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1327 2014-01-13 16:41:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is there some way of analyzing the files to figure out what's different?
1328 2014-01-13 16:42:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(what does bisect mean in this context?)
1329 2014-01-13 16:42:16 <gavinandresen> Ah, I remember a 0.9 task:  update our dependencies
1330 2014-01-13 16:42:33 <sipa> will we move to a newer ubuntu for build?
1331 2014-01-13 16:42:36 <wumpus> #3516 is safe to merge IMO, I've tested it pretty extensively and code changes are pretty minimal and understandable
1332 2014-01-13 16:42:41 <jgarzik_> michagogo|cloud, "git bisect"
1333 2014-01-13 16:42:44 <wumpus> sipa: didn't we do that already (move to 12.04?)
1334 2014-01-13 16:42:54 <jgarzik_> michagogo|cloud, bisection pinpoints the precise broken commit
1335 2014-01-13 16:43:04 <sipa> wumpus: we did? :O
1336 2014-01-13 16:43:18 <sipa> i haven't gitian-built in a long time, i may be misremembering
1337 2014-01-13 16:43:26 <sipa> but the ubuntu binaries are still on 10.04, no?
1338 2014-01-13 16:43:31 <wumpus> sipa: at least the windows build is now being done on 12.04
1339 2014-01-13 16:43:36 <sipa> oh yes, windows
1340 2014-01-13 16:43:36 <jgarzik_> sipa, surely 12.x
1341 2014-01-13 16:43:45 <wumpus> not sure about linux
1342 2014-01-13 16:43:50 dredredre has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1343 2014-01-13 16:44:04 <sipa> using 12.04 means we can stop supporting ancient boost and gcc
1344 2014-01-13 16:44:06 <gavinandresen> I vote for fewer VM images required to build….
1345 2014-01-13 16:44:17 <gavinandresen> … and ACK on moving away from ancient boost/gcc
1346 2014-01-13 16:44:23 <sipa> and have c++11 features, wiii!
1347 2014-01-13 16:44:31 * sipa calms down
1348 2014-01-13 16:44:36 <jgarzik_> +1 on non-ancient
1349 2014-01-13 16:44:36 _yoy_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1350 2014-01-13 16:44:38 <gavinandresen> mmm….. auto…..
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1352 2014-01-13 16:44:58 <jgarzik_> using 12.10 or whatever LTS is
1353 2014-01-13 16:45:00 <jgarzik_> *use
1354 2014-01-13 16:45:07 <sipa> 12.04 is TLS, iirc
1355 2014-01-13 16:45:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik_: 10.04, 12.04, 14.04 are lts
1356 2014-01-13 16:45:15 <sipa> LTS
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1358 2014-01-13 16:45:35 <jgarzik_> ok
1359 2014-01-13 16:46:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik_: What system are you seeing the issue on?
1360 2014-01-13 16:46:52 Litetree has joined
1361 2014-01-13 16:47:50 <jgarzik_> michagogo|cloud, Ubuntu 13.10 in a OSX VirtualBox VM
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1363 2014-01-13 16:48:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, so it's not exclusive to Windows or anything
1364 2014-01-13 16:49:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|One thing I'm noticing different is that sorting the 0.8.6 and the master blocks/index/ dirs by last modified is showing different results
1365 2014-01-13 16:50:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|master shows LOCK, LOG, LOG.old, MANIFEST-020605, and then ######.ldb files
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1367 2014-01-13 16:51:19 shamoon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1368 2014-01-13 16:51:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|v0.8.6 shows 020603.log, LOG, MANIFEST-020598, 020604.sst, 020602.sst, CURRENT, 020599.sst, LOCK, LOG.old, and then ######.sst files
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1371 2014-01-13 16:52:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Might this have something to do with it?
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1379 2014-01-13 17:00:46 <dmanderson> One thing I notice in the gitian descriptors, that I am doing differently is they use mingw64 to compile a 32 bit binary? Are there problems with mingw32?
1380 2014-01-13 17:01:26 <wumpus> dmanderson: m64 is the new variant of mingw32, just ignore the name
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1383 2014-01-13 17:01:58 <sipa> it's mingw32 vs mingw-w64
1384 2014-01-13 17:02:04 <wumpus> yes
1385 2014-01-13 17:02:09 <sipa> the latter is a newer fork which _additionally_ supports w64
1386 2014-01-13 17:02:15 <dmanderson> hm ok. Maybe a more clear explanation might lead someone to a better finger point. But everything appears to build just fine, when I'm coming up to final build of the daemon, levedb.h is throwing a bunch of undefined reference errors.
1387 2014-01-13 17:02:53 <wumpus> mingw-w64 is a better fork of mingw32 even for 32 bit builds
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1391 2014-01-13 17:07:28 <dmanderson> I haven't tried using mingw-w32, actually trying to compile natively inside a VM. At this point my sanity is in question, so I might give cross compiling a go.
1392 2014-01-13 17:09:42 <sipa> there's no such thing as mingw-w32
1393 2014-01-13 17:10:04 <sipa> there is mingw32 and mingw-w64, and both can be used either natively on windows or for cross compiling to it
1394 2014-01-13 17:10:22 <dmanderson> Ah, thanks for the correction sipa
1395 2014-01-13 17:10:35 dvide has joined
1396 2014-01-13 17:10:59 <sipa> (to the point that mingw-w64 provides binaries with the mingw32 name it is, as it is compatible with it
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1401 2014-01-13 17:13:26 <dmanderson> thanks for bearing with my noobness :)
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1404 2014-01-13 17:14:54 <Luke-Jr> anyone know a pre-blockheightincoinbase scamcoin I can abuse for testing? <.<
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1411 2014-01-13 17:20:44 <brisque> Luke-Jr: Betacoin, Joulecoin? there's not many sha256 coins left.
1412 2014-01-13 17:20:54 <Luke-Jr> I don't care if it's sha2 or scrypt
1413 2014-01-13 17:21:03 <Luke-Jr> or heck, I don't care if I can even find shares <.<
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1417 2014-01-13 17:29:12 <sipa> gavinandresen: is there a BIP for the reject message?
1418 2014-01-13 17:29:41 <gavinandresen> sipa: I don't remember
1419 2014-01-13 17:30:02 <gavinandresen> sipa: I agree there should be one if there isn't… I'll look
1420 2014-01-13 17:30:17 <sipa> i remember discussion, but couldn't find a bip
1421 2014-01-13 17:31:26 <wumpus> AFAIK there is only https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/7079034
1422 2014-01-13 17:31:29 <gavinandresen> Mmm, just a gist it looks like
1423 2014-01-13 17:31:33 <wumpus> yes
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1425 2014-01-13 17:33:07 <gavinandresen> ok, turning that gist into a BIP is on my TODO.  If anybody has extra time feel free to do it before I get around to it.....
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1434 2014-01-13 17:45:57 <wumpus> can we at least get a BIP number for it?
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1436 2014-01-13 17:47:49 <sipa> /ping gmaxwell
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1446 2014-01-13 18:08:17 <TD> gavinandresen: welcome back!
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1452 2014-01-13 18:17:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik: I had to go afk for a bit
1453 2014-01-13 18:17:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'll read up on that bisect thing
1454 2014-01-13 18:18:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If it's not too complicated, I'll try it
1455 2014-01-13 18:18:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|git help bisect
1456 2014-01-13 18:18:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bah
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1464 2014-01-13 18:24:54 <sipa> dang
1465 2014-01-13 18:25:03 <sipa> wikipedia/BDB mentions Bitcoin as a user...
1466 2014-01-13 18:25:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Heh
1467 2014-01-13 18:25:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is it any more specific?
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1469 2014-01-13 18:26:17 <sipa> It does say "Until 0.8.0"
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1473 2014-01-13 18:28:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Has anyone used tmate before?
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1503 2014-01-13 18:52:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Would anyone mind looking over my shoulder for a bit and telling me if I'm understanding correctly how this bisect thing works?
1504 2014-01-13 18:53:15 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: ?
1505 2014-01-13 18:53:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: git master makes 0.8.6 unable to read the block database
1506 2014-01-13 18:53:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik suggested I use git bisect to find out what's causing it
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1509 2014-01-13 18:54:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I read the manpage, but I'm not sure I fully understand it
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1513 2014-01-13 18:56:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|`ssh ro-5sGcsjYrny3gg27b5xTMLBV4j@am.tmate.io` will allow viewing of my terminal
1514 2014-01-13 18:57:08 jddebug has joined
1515 2014-01-13 18:57:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If anyone has experience with git bisect and a few minutes to tell me if I have the basic idea right, it would be very helpful
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1518 2014-01-13 19:03:16 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: bisect is pretty simple, just pick a known-bad and known-good commit, then run through tests as told
1519 2014-01-13 19:04:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Welcome, Floridian!
1520 2014-01-13 19:04:27 andytoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1521 2014-01-13 19:04:42 <lechuga__> is there any issue with sending yourself a specific amount with sendfrom (in local wallet) such that you can have a single utxo with the precise amount you want to send elsewhere later on?
1522 2014-01-13 19:04:48 <lechuga__> or rather, is that discourged?
1523 2014-01-13 19:05:13 Applicat_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1524 2014-01-13 19:05:49 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, back
1525 2014-01-13 19:06:01 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1526 2014-01-13 19:06:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Bisecting: a merge base must be tested
1527 2014-01-13 19:06:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|[09e437ba4e5cb7fcc53020c1ceb2451e0ff1606b] Merge pull request #2696 from robbak/util_h-Add_stdarg_include
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1530 2014-01-13 19:06:49 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, git bisect is simple.  You figure out a known working commit, a known broken commit, and a way to reproduce the problem.  git bisect will test intermediate commits between those two points, "bisecting" the remaining commit space, to find the problem commit in the shortest possible time.
1531 2014-01-13 19:06:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does this mean that the bisect has started and it's now giving me the first thing to test?
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1536 2014-01-13 19:07:23 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, for each test, after bisection starts, you test, then indicate "git bisect good" or "git bisect bad"   git will find the next commit to test.
1537 2014-01-13 19:07:32 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, the process ends when there are no more commits to test
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1541 2014-01-13 19:08:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So now that commit that it mentioned (09e437ba4e5cb7fcc53020c1ceb2451e0ff1606b) is checked out, and I should build and test it?
1542 2014-01-13 19:08:21 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, for a block database corruption test, you will likely need a stashed, original copy of blocks/ and chainstate/, to restore after each test
1543 2014-01-13 19:08:29 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, yes
1544 2014-01-13 19:08:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik: I'm just deleting blocks/ and chainstate/
1545 2014-01-13 19:08:42 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, build, test, then run "git bisect good" or "git bisect bad"
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1547 2014-01-13 19:08:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Running the new version, stopping it, and seeing if 0.8.6 will start
1548 2014-01-13 19:09:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(I confirmed that with current git head that does make it fail)
1549 2014-01-13 19:10:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, looks like I'll need to check each version and see if it uses autotools or not
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1552 2014-01-13 19:16:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Erm
1553 2014-01-13 19:16:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Something's wrong
1554 2014-01-13 19:16:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is there anything else I need to do after testing and telling git that this revision is good or bad before I build again?
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1558 2014-01-13 19:17:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|make -f makefile.unix just printed "/bin/sh ../share/genbuild.sh obj/build.h" and exited
1559 2014-01-13 19:18:29 <jcorgan> you may need to do a make clean before git bisect good or bad so the build won't get confused.  worst case, git clean -d -x -f
1560 2014-01-13 19:18:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...before?
1561 2014-01-13 19:18:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Did I bork it?
1562 2014-01-13 19:18:53 <jcorgan> probably not
1563 2014-01-13 19:18:57 Neozonz has quit (Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Read error: Operation timed out)
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1565 2014-01-13 19:19:20 <jcorgan> try git clean -d -x -f and try rebuilding again
1566 2014-01-13 19:19:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wait, but what about my previous test?
1567 2014-01-13 19:19:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Might the result have been wrong?
1568 2014-01-13 19:20:06 <jcorgan> you haven't indicated to git whether it was good or bad, so you should still be sitting at the right commit
1569 2014-01-13 19:20:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jcorgan: I did
1570 2014-01-13 19:20:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There was one version that I told git was bad
1571 2014-01-13 19:21:01 <jcorgan> if you haven't told git whether the *current* commit you are sitting at is good or bad, then you can nuke the build with git clean -d -x -f and try again
1572 2014-01-13 19:21:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jcorgan: But I mean, what if I told git the previous commit was bad, but it was really good and I just didn't clean?
1573 2014-01-13 19:21:31 <jcorgan> oh
1574 2014-01-13 19:22:17 <jcorgan> if you've only just started, you can 'git bisect reset'
1575 2014-01-13 19:22:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|okay
1576 2014-01-13 19:22:52 <jcorgan> you can add a commit id to that command to reset to your last known correct test
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1578 2014-01-13 19:23:38 TD is now known as TD[gone]
1579 2014-01-13 19:23:50 <jcorgan> the important thing is since you are bouncing around between versions, and especially since you are switching between autotools and custome makefiles, is to clean up after the build before telling git the bisect was good or bad
1580 2014-01-13 19:24:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So after each build and test, before the next git bisect command, run git clean -dxf?
1581 2014-01-13 19:24:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, got it.
1582 2014-01-13 19:24:33 <jcorgan> make clean is probably enough, but -dxf is a good hammer
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1584 2014-01-13 19:25:01 <jcorgan> git bisect is your friend; the time it takes to master it will be infinitely repaid :)
1585 2014-01-13 19:26:06 <jcorgan> actually, if you use -dxf, then you don't have to worry so much about doing it before you run git bisect good or bad
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1587 2014-01-13 19:27:18 <jcorgan> also, -dxf should be run from the root dir of your checkout, not a subdir
1588 2014-01-13 19:27:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jcorgan: What do you mean?
1589 2014-01-13 19:27:24 brson has joined
1590 2014-01-13 19:28:11 <jcorgan> the point of doing the clean up before git bisect good or bad is that once you do, the makefiles or autotools "knowledge" of how to clean up might change
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1592 2014-01-13 19:28:38 <jcorgan> but with -dxf, it is simply nuking anything that is not in version control
1593 2014-01-13 19:29:42 <jcorgan> so my original advice really only applies if you are going to run 'make clean'; on further reflection, just running git bisect good or bad, then git clean -dxf, would work just as well
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1595 2014-01-13 19:32:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, so that first test was a success
1596 2014-01-13 19:32:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|so, make -f makefile.unix clean, git bisect good, ./autogen.sh, ./configure, make, right?
1597 2014-01-13 19:32:59 <Luke-Jr> git clean -dxf <-- very dangerous FWIW, like rm -rf
1598 2014-01-13 19:33:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(with cd .. before the gbg)
1599 2014-01-13 19:33:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: o_O
1600 2014-01-13 19:33:15 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1601 2014-01-13 19:33:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...should I not be using it?
1602 2014-01-13 19:33:39 <Luke-Jr> it deletes anything unknown to git (or ignored)
1603 2014-01-13 19:33:40 <jcorgan> git clean -dxf will indeed make you permanently lose any files in the checkout that you've modified or staged for commit
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1605 2014-01-13 19:33:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ah
1606 2014-01-13 19:33:53 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: or not part of the repo at all
1607 2014-01-13 19:33:57 <jcorgan> yes
1608 2014-01-13 19:34:07 <Luke-Jr> I have a ton of files in my bitcoin git dir >.>
1609 2014-01-13 19:34:12 <jcorgan> it basically reverts a repo to a pristine, checked out state
1610 2014-01-13 19:34:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, so not relevant right now for this particular session, but important to know for the future.
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1612 2014-01-13 19:34:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Thanks
1613 2014-01-13 19:34:46 <jcorgan> that's why i said it was a hammer.  make clean is probably all you need, as long as you do it before git switches your checked out commit
1614 2014-01-13 19:36:09 <jcorgan> oh, and since you are building so much, ccache is also your friend
1615 2014-01-13 19:36:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google ccache
1616 2014-01-13 19:36:46 <gribble> ccache — Overview: <http://ccache.samba.org/>; ccache - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ccache>; Ccache - ArchWiki: <https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ccache>
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1621 2014-01-13 19:39:56 <jcorgan> Luke-Jr: I tend not to put any non-version controlled files inside a checked out repo, preferring to build and test elsewhere.  But that's not possible until someone autotools the leveldb code and allows VPATH building for the whole tree.
1622 2014-01-13 19:40:17 <Luke-Jr> XD
1623 2014-01-13 19:40:30 <Luke-Jr> I have SO much crap under my working dir for bitcoind
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1625 2014-01-13 19:40:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|git clean -dxf removed more than make clean did
1626 2014-01-13 19:41:00 <Luke-Jr> of course it did
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1628 2014-01-13 19:41:17 <Luke-Jr> it is essentially "delete the entire dir and re-checkout"
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1630 2014-01-13 19:41:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So I probably want that, and not just make clean, don't I?
1631 2014-01-13 19:41:40 <jcorgan> i have 'git clean -dxf' aliased to 'git napalm'
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1633 2014-01-13 19:42:09 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: as long as you're aware of the consequences..
1634 2014-01-13 19:42:34 <Luke-Jr> I just moved hashfast to BFGMiner fwiw
1635 2014-01-13 19:42:42 <Luke-Jr> benchmarking vs cgminer (previous 22 hours)
1636 2014-01-13 19:42:48 <jcorgan> the goal is to remove anything that was built by the compiler before you switch commits.  git clean -dxf...exceeds the specification :)
1637 2014-01-13 19:43:06 <Luke-Jr> oops, wrong channel
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1639 2014-01-13 19:44:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jcorgan: But don't I also want to remove configure, makefiles, etc?
1640 2014-01-13 19:44:53 <jcorgan> that's a good point
1641 2014-01-13 19:45:53 <jcorgan> if the version bisect switches to is an autotools one, then autogen.sh will take care of that, but if it switches to a non-autotools one, you want to clean that up
1642 2014-01-13 19:46:05 <jcorgan> this is why VPATH building is a good thing
1643 2014-01-13 19:46:14 dredredre has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1644 2014-01-13 19:47:24 * Luke-Jr notes `git bisect run` is handy too
1645 2014-01-13 19:47:58 <jcorgan> i've never been able to automate the testing enough to use that (wearing my GNU Radio hat)
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1647 2014-01-13 19:48:57 <Luke-Jr> ok, handy in theory.. I admit I've never actually used it either <.<
1648 2014-01-13 19:49:19 Application has joined
1649 2014-01-13 19:49:32 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: I made a web interface to git bisect for BFGMiner: http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/webisect/webisect.php
1650 2014-01-13 19:49:39 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: it builds Windows binaries on demand :P
1651 2014-01-13 19:50:24 <bitnumus> hmm someone told me testnet was 167mb, but its more!!
1652 2014-01-13 19:50:50 <bitnumus> are there the same amount of blocks on testnet as main then now ?
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1654 2014-01-13 19:51:54 <jcorgan> nice
1655 2014-01-13 19:54:20 <jcorgan> so, speaking of leveldb compiling, i understand why it is in-tree vs. system supplied.  Since it is in-tree, though, it could be autotooled, right?
1656 2014-01-13 19:54:30 c0rw1n has joined
1657 2014-01-13 19:54:40 <jcorgan> (not volunteering :)
1658 2014-01-13 19:54:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|checking for ccache... /usr/bin/ccache
1659 2014-01-13 19:54:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wait a minute, is it smart enough to find and use ccache on its own?
1660 2014-01-13 19:54:57 <jcorgan> i think so
1661 2014-01-13 19:55:05 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: no, we don't want to fork it
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1663 2014-01-13 19:55:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's annoying
1664 2014-01-13 19:55:22 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: it's in-tree only because upstream bugfixes *could* break bitcoin's use case
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1666 2014-01-13 19:55:28 <jcorgan> right
1667 2014-01-13 19:55:44 <Luke-Jr> so it tracks upstream, just only after proper review
1668 2014-01-13 19:55:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I just spent several minutes reading about how to make it work
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1671 2014-01-13 19:56:55 <jcorgan> it would be nice to have a single checkout of bitcoin but with multiple independent build dirs for compiling with different options
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1674 2014-01-13 19:57:41 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tries to figure out if there's any difference between http://www.instantssl.com/ssl-certificate-products/free-email-certificate.html and http://www.comodo.com/home/email-security/free-email-certificate.php
1675 2014-01-13 19:58:18 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: personally I find that aspect of git annoying (only one working dir)
1676 2014-01-13 19:58:34 <jcorgan> ;;google git-new-workdir
1677 2014-01-13 19:58:35 <gribble> git-new-workdir: <http://nuclearsquid.com/writings/git-new-workdir/>; git/contrib/workdir/git-new-workdir at master · git/git · GitHub: <https://github.com/git/git/blob/master/contrib/workdir/git-new-workdir>; git-new-workdir - GitHub: <https://raw.github.com/git/git/master/contrib/workdir/git-new-workdir>
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1679 2014-01-13 19:59:43 <CodeShark_> to build in different dirs, you should be able to do things like mkdir build-options1; cd build-options1; ../bitcoin/configure
1680 2014-01-13 19:59:53 <jcorgan> you can't
1681 2014-01-13 20:00:07 <jcorgan> all the bitcoin autotools supports that, except the leveldb code
1682 2014-01-13 20:00:38 <CodeShark_> well, then the workaround is to simply clone the repo to multiple directories
1683 2014-01-13 20:01:10 <jcorgan> right.  the git-new-workdir approach lets you do that while sharing a repo
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1701 2014-01-13 20:17:03 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: But you can clone into as many as you want..?
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1706 2014-01-13 20:26:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Bisecting: 16 revisions left to test after this (roughly 4 steps)
1707 2014-01-13 20:26:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|[da0fecffa788a0a74121d554d3d76936ab96b39e] Store orphan blocks in serialized for
1708 2014-01-13 20:26:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|m
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1710 2014-01-13 20:26:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So far, it's been only `git bisect good`s...
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1712 2014-01-13 20:27:28 <gwb3> michagogo|cloud: i think comodo owns instantssl.com
1713 2014-01-13 20:27:56 <jcorgan> it is O(log(n))
1714 2014-01-13 20:28:20 <gwb3> michagogo|cloud: yes - http://who.is/whois/instantssl.com
1715 2014-01-13 20:28:29 <gwb3> michagogo|cloud: so i would imagine it's the same thing ;)
1716 2014-01-13 20:29:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Aha
1717 2014-01-13 20:29:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There's the first `git bisect bad`
1718 2014-01-13 20:36:02 * helo popcorns
1719 2014-01-13 20:38:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|helo: If you wanted to watch, you could: ssh ro-5sGcsjYrny3gg27b5xTMLBV4j@am.tmate.io
1720 2014-01-13 20:39:03 <helo> heh neat
1721 2014-01-13 20:39:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|o_O
1722 2014-01-13 20:39:08 <nym> hello
1723 2014-01-13 20:39:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/wn9HdYWf
1724 2014-01-13 20:39:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: ping
1725 2014-01-13 20:39:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;seen wumpus
1726 2014-01-13 20:39:40 <gribble> wumpus was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 hours, 53 minutes, and 42 seconds ago: <wumpus> can we at least get a BIP number for it?
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1730 2014-01-13 20:41:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Doesn't seem database-related.
1731 2014-01-13 20:41:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(at least, not from the message...)
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1738 2014-01-13 20:47:06 <jcorgan> did you continue bisecting? that first 'bad' just means you jumped over the bad commit
1739 2014-01-13 20:47:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Updated the issue
1740 2014-01-13 20:47:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jcorgan: yes
1741 2014-01-13 20:47:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|see the pastebin link
1742 2014-01-13 20:47:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3529)
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1744 2014-01-13 20:50:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, why would https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/35ecf854c084c248ad640c6af030a9d1ed726c47 affect the database?
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1750 2014-01-13 20:58:47 <wallet42> has anyone numbers of how many coinbases have not yet been spent (min age 6 month)?
1751 2014-01-13 20:58:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;later tell wumpus According to `git bisect`, it looks like https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/35ecf854c084c248ad640c6af030a9d1ed726c47 breaks database compatibility with v0.8.6 (issue #3529)
1752 2014-01-13 20:58:53 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1753 2014-01-13 20:58:54 <nym> i'm hosting Bitcoin Hack Fest in SF with Jered Kenna on March 1-2... it's not publicly announced and i wanted to ask in here what kinds of talks you would like to hear
1754 2014-01-13 20:59:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|nym: it is publically announced now :-P
1755 2014-01-13 20:59:34 <nym> michagogo|cloud: lets just say i'm being selective about the channels
1756 2014-01-13 20:59:35 <jgarzik> ;p
1757 2014-01-13 20:59:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|nym: sure, but now it's on teh Googlez
1758 2014-01-13 20:59:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik: So I found the commit that broke it
1759 2014-01-13 20:59:55 <Apocalyptic> does Jered still have some credibility ?
1760 2014-01-13 21:00:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|nym: (since this channel is publically logged)
1761 2014-01-13 21:00:09 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, I saw.  I don't see how that could break it.
1762 2014-01-13 21:00:15 <nym> michagogo|cloud: yes, i understand
1763 2014-01-13 21:00:23 <nym> Apocalyptic: I have no reason not to think so
1764 2014-01-13 21:00:43 <nym> he's been very generous to the san francisco community
1765 2014-01-13 21:01:06 <nym> if you have a critique of jered, please feel free to msg
1766 2014-01-13 21:01:33 <nym> charlie lee is doing a talk on "the development history of litcoin"
1767 2014-01-13 21:01:38 <nym> *litecoin
1768 2014-01-13 21:01:55 Neozonz has joined
1769 2014-01-13 21:02:18 <gmaxwell> Good, I have friends that had funds which were never returned from tradehill that can show up to collect, I guess.
1770 2014-01-13 21:02:21 <nym> ankur nandwani is doing a talk on "How to accept Bitcoin in your Android app"
1771 2014-01-13 21:04:18 <nym> gmaxwell: that's not good- obviously. I would recommend contacting him and ryan at tradehill.com for a reimbursement. I am not an employee of tradehill though, and can't really speak to their business other than I've personally never had any issues and believe Jered is a good actor in the space.
1772 2014-01-13 21:04:20 Krellan_ has joined
1773 2014-01-13 21:04:57 <nym> afaik, the right emails are jered@tradehill.com / ryan@tradehill.com
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1775 2014-01-13 21:06:26 <nym> gmaxwell: are there any lectures you think would be good for the event?
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1782 2014-01-13 21:21:03 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: hmm, wtf?
1783 2014-01-13 21:21:57 Plasmastar has joined
1784 2014-01-13 21:22:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: no idea
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1787 2014-01-13 21:26:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, maybe I should have done one more manual check on 35ecf854c084c248ad640c6af030a9d1ed726c47~1 before destroying that droplet
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1800 2014-01-13 21:40:31 * Burrito is trying to figure out how to do BIP32 using Richard Kiss' pycoin library
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1804 2014-01-13 21:45:33 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: that's a gui-only commit, I'm sure that doesn't affect the database format
1805 2014-01-13 21:45:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So did I mess up the bisection?
1806 2014-01-13 21:46:02 <sipa> or it's non-deterministic
1807 2014-01-13 21:47:05 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: also, you said it was already wrong with 549e69a, which was earlier than that commit, so something must have gone wrong with bisection
1808 2014-01-13 21:47:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...crap
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1810 2014-01-13 21:47:32 <wumpus> ...or it's non-deterministic
1811 2014-01-13 21:47:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|or that.
1812 2014-01-13 21:47:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(hoping it's that)
1813 2014-01-13 21:48:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Though I wonder where the non-determinism would be
1814 2014-01-13 21:48:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|At run, or at compile?
1815 2014-01-13 21:48:30 <sipa> if it's at run, you could just test a few times for every version
1816 2014-01-13 21:48:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I wonder how hard it would be to write a test script for git bisect run
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1894 2014-01-13 23:38:02 <lechuga__> sanity check question: if i dumpprivkey <addr> should i expect to be able to get addr again by computing the address given the decoded privkey that's returned to me
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1896 2014-01-13 23:40:33 <lechuga__> i keep computing a different address from the returned key and it's drivign me fairly mental
1897 2014-01-13 23:40:41 <Luke-Jr> lechuga__: I don't think there's a sane way to use dumpprivkey.
1898 2014-01-13 23:41:26 <sipa> this, the answer to his question is yes: from the key you can conpyte the address again
1899 2014-01-13 23:41:33 <sipa> *still
1900 2014-01-13 23:41:58 <lechuga__> i was trying to use the key to sign an exotic transaction
1901 2014-01-13 23:42:22 <lechuga__> hmm ok that suggests im somehow screwing up the computation
1902 2014-01-13 23:42:28 <lechuga__> thx
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1905 2014-01-13 23:47:11 <matjeh> lechuga__: how are you computing the address?
1906 2014-01-13 23:47:35 <matjeh> i've never had a problem with dumpprivkey myself
1907 2014-01-13 23:48:06 <matjeh> as long as you are aware there are compressed and uncompressed public key representations of the same raw private key
1908 2014-01-13 23:48:14 <matjeh> but that shouldn't better because WIF encodes that
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1910 2014-01-13 23:50:52 ahmedbodi__ is now known as ahmedbodi_afk
1911 2014-01-13 23:51:42 <lechuga__> im using bitcoinjs-lib
1912 2014-01-13 23:52:28 <matjeh> ok...
1913 2014-01-13 23:52:44 <lechuga__> hmm
1914 2014-01-13 23:52:57 elgrecoF- is now known as elgrecoFL
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1917 2014-01-13 23:54:50 <grnbrg> Oh great and powerful devs, I seek Guidance...  :)  I was chatting with the Electrum wallet devs last night about a bug report.  Turned out to be the fact that Electrum (correctly) refuses to create dust change outputs, and instead rolls them into the fee.  The bug report came from the fact that this was done silently.  However, it occurred to me that the dust could be recovered by adding an additional input and output to the transaction....
1918 2014-01-13 23:55:02 <grnbrg> See https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/issues/543#issuecomment-32146370 for an example.
1919 2014-01-13 23:55:30 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1920 2014-01-13 23:55:50 <grnbrg> Question:  This will slightly increase the size of an affected transaction, but means that the user can keep their dust.  Is this a good thing, or a bad thing?
1921 2014-01-13 23:56:15 <grnbrg> The primary Electrum dev wasn't sure, and wanted me to solicit some comments.
1922 2014-01-13 23:56:52 <sipa> doing so should have zero effect on the UTXO set
1923 2014-01-13 23:57:30 <sipa> whether the larger transaction (and thus lower priority or higher fee) is worth it to you as a user, is a different question
1924 2014-01-13 23:57:51 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1925 2014-01-13 23:57:53 <sipa> i guess if the incurred marginal fee increase is less than what you'd lose as change-becoming-fee, it's worth it
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1929 2014-01-13 23:58:58 <phantomcircuit> lechuga__, keep in mind there are multiple valid addresses for each private key
1930 2014-01-13 23:59:08 <sipa> phantomcircuit: not for keys in WIF format
1931 2014-01-13 23:59:19 <phantomcircuit> sipa, WIF?
1932 2014-01-13 23:59:24 <sipa> wallet import format
1933 2014-01-13 23:59:27 <sipa> base58
1934 2014-01-13 23:59:37 <lechuga__> w/cksum
1935 2014-01-13 23:59:52 <sipa> and compressed/uncompressed marker