1 2014-01-14 00:00:10 <phantomcircuit> right but for each private key you can generate nonstandard addresses with padding
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4 2014-01-14 00:00:45 <sipa> ???
5 2014-01-14 00:00:57 <matjeh> perhaps, but bitcoind doesn't
6 2014-01-14 00:01:08 <sipa> oh, you mean P2SH addresses with junk in their scripts?
7 2014-01-14 00:01:25 <wallet42> sipa: is this allowed?
8 2014-01-14 00:01:47 <sipa> wallet42: it's not standard, but it can be valid
9 2014-01-14 00:02:00 <phantomcircuit> sipa, no i mean normal addresses with stupid padding added to the public key
10 2014-01-14 00:02:05 <wallet42> p2sh with differend random ignored data to siguise that its the same 2-of-3 party?
11 2014-01-14 00:02:09 <sipa> phantomcircuit: that's not valid
12 2014-01-14 00:02:33 <sipa> for every secret key, there are exactly 3 valid public keys (according to OpenSSL)
13 2014-01-14 00:02:40 <wallet42> disguise*
14 2014-01-14 00:02:47 <sipa> the uncompressed, the compressed, and the hybrid one
15 2014-01-14 00:02:58 <sipa> the last one is considered non-standard in bitcoin 0.8 an above
16 2014-01-14 00:03:07 <wallet42> i know uncompressed and compressed
17 2014-01-14 00:03:12 <wallet42> whats hybrid?
18 2014-01-14 00:03:21 <phantomcircuit> sipa, except openssl is retarded and will accept DER encoded strings with arbitrary amounts of padding
19 2014-01-14 00:03:28 <sipa> phantomcircuit: public keys are not DER
20 2014-01-14 00:03:29 <lechuga__> this lib looks like its decoding wif correctly
21 2014-01-14 00:03:34 <sipa> you're talking about signatures
22 2014-01-14 00:03:36 <phantomcircuit> oh they're not you're right
23 2014-01-14 00:03:40 <phantomcircuit> dero
24 2014-01-14 00:03:42 <phantomcircuit> derp*
25 2014-01-14 00:03:46 <sipa> DERp
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27 2014-01-14 00:03:49 <lechuga__> heh
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31 2014-01-14 00:05:43 <wallet42> 04 is uncompressed
32 2014-01-14 00:05:48 <wallet42> 02/03 is compressed
33 2014-01-14 00:05:55 <wallet42> and what is hybrid??
34 2014-01-14 00:06:27 <sipa> 04 + x + y
35 2014-01-14 00:06:33 <sipa> 02 + x (if y is even)
36 2014-01-14 00:06:38 <sipa> 03 + x ( if y is odd)
37 2014-01-14 00:06:48 <sipa> 06 + x + y (if y is even)
38 2014-01-14 00:06:57 <sipa> 07 + x + y (if y is odd)
39 2014-01-14 00:07:03 <sipa> the last two are hybrid
40 2014-01-14 00:07:32 <wallet42> so its double information
41 2014-01-14 00:07:40 <sipa> yep, it's very pointless
42 2014-01-14 00:07:47 <sipa> but it is currently valid in bitcoin
43 2014-01-14 00:07:55 <wallet42> ive never seen such
44 2014-01-14 00:08:06 <sipa> i don't think it ever happened in mainnet
45 2014-01-14 00:08:49 <wallet42> but another trick to disguise the ownership...
46 2014-01-14 00:09:30 <maaku> sipa: would the wallet recognize an incoming hybrid?
47 2014-01-14 00:09:34 <lechuga__> im going to find this bug and its going to be so dumb
48 2014-01-14 00:09:41 <lechuga__> can feel it
49 2014-01-14 00:10:08 <sipa> maaku: think :)
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51 2014-01-14 00:11:00 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it's all the IsCanonicalSignature stuff right
52 2014-01-14 00:11:02 <phantomcircuit> er
53 2014-01-14 00:11:05 <phantomcircuit> IsCanonicalPubKey
54 2014-01-14 00:11:41 <sipa> standardness has little to do with it, as the wallet will see everything in the blockchain in any case
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56 2014-01-14 00:14:41 <wallet42> are there plans to implement deterministic signatures?
57 2014-01-14 00:15:06 <warren> Would you accept a patch that adds an optional parameter for -rescan to have it scan only after block X?
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59 2014-01-14 00:15:27 <wallet42> so i can know the final txid to use it in a followup tx for example
60 2014-01-14 00:19:43 <sipa> wallet42: deterministic signatures are on the radar, but they cannot be enforced
61 2014-01-14 00:19:51 <sipa> wallet42: it's the client side choice whether to use them or not
62 2014-01-14 00:20:00 <wallet42> no i dont want them to be enforced
63 2014-01-14 00:20:13 <wallet42> i just want to be able to precompute a txid
64 2014-01-14 00:20:36 <sipa> i don't understand; why can't you do that now?
65 2014-01-14 00:20:45 <sipa> you just create the transaction
66 2014-01-14 00:20:51 <sipa> there's nothing "pre" to it
67 2014-01-14 00:21:06 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
68 2014-01-14 00:21:36 <wallet42> create a chain of transactions
69 2014-01-14 00:21:45 <sipa> you can do that now...
70 2014-01-14 00:22:07 <wallet42> the publishing happens in reverse order
71 2014-01-14 00:22:14 <wallet42> so everyone is sure he cannot be screwed
72 2014-01-14 00:23:07 <gmaxwell> wallet42: you can do that now
73 2014-01-14 00:23:16 <wallet42> ah⦠no it wouldnt work⦠if 2 inputs need to be signed i cannot know the hash
74 2014-01-14 00:23:34 <wallet42> witout them being signed together
75 2014-01-14 00:23:56 <sipa> deterministic signatures doesn't mean you can know the signature before signing
76 2014-01-14 00:23:56 <gmaxwell> Yes, it works fine. And to the extent it doesn't determinstic signatures cannot help you at all.
77 2014-01-14 00:24:16 <sipa> and the transaction hash depends on the signature
78 2014-01-14 00:24:18 <wallet42> no.. forget it my idea is not going to work with deterministic signatures
79 2014-01-14 00:24:20 <wallet42> yes
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82 2014-01-14 00:25:03 <gmaxwell> wallet42: whatever protocol you want can probably be done however.
83 2014-01-14 00:25:22 <gmaxwell> But you haven't described it in enough detail for me to tell you how to make it workable, because you described only mechenism not goals.
84 2014-01-14 00:25:38 <wallet42> it has to be trustless :) im still working on it
85 2014-01-14 00:26:17 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
86 2014-01-14 00:26:31 <gmaxwell> wallet42: the way I've addressed this in protocols is just by having parties sign data they've never seen (e.g. give them the hash to sign). Which is perfectly safe to do if you do not reuse keys.
87 2014-01-14 00:27:44 <wallet42> i will publish it soon, you can tear it to pieces afterwards ;)
88 2014-01-14 00:28:08 <wallet42> gmaxwell: i dont think signing arbitrary hashes is sth i would trust....
89 2014-01-14 00:28:14 <wallet42> isnt
90 2014-01-14 00:28:18 <wallet42> is
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100 2014-01-14 00:30:44 <gmaxwell> wallet42: uhh.
101 2014-01-14 00:30:55 <gmaxwell> Why not?
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107 2014-01-14 00:34:50 <wallet42> oh i didnt see the "do not reuse keys"
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109 2014-01-14 00:35:01 <wallet42> you're probably right then
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111 2014-01-14 00:40:59 <lechuga__> ugh found it
112 2014-01-14 00:41:10 <lechuga__> this lib wasnt properly detecting key compression
113 2014-01-14 00:41:42 <realazthat> sipa: you mentioned yesterday about using the confirmations=0 to go back up the chain
114 2014-01-14 00:42:00 <realazthat> so can I assume that normally blocks always have >= 1 confirmation
115 2014-01-14 00:42:10 <realazthat> I mean, that makes sense
116 2014-01-14 00:42:15 <realazthat> just want to confirm
117 2014-01-14 00:42:20 <sipa> blocks in the main chain always have >= confirmation
118 2014-01-14 00:42:24 <sipa> 1
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120 2014-01-14 00:42:30 <realazthat> ok very good
121 2014-01-14 00:42:52 <realazthat> sipa: thanks
122 2014-01-14 00:43:22 <realazthat> how am I supposed to test code that runs only when there is a fork
123 2014-01-14 00:43:41 <sipa> use regtest mode, and cause a fork :D
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125 2014-01-14 00:45:44 <realazthat> mmm where is that documented
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128 2014-01-14 00:47:48 <sipa> it's not in any release yet
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132 2014-01-14 00:52:08 <warren> cfields: what's the status of the gitian macosx target?
133 2014-01-14 00:52:11 <maaku> isn't there also a reorg unit test?
134 2014-01-14 00:52:13 <maaku> you could use that
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136 2014-01-14 00:52:32 <realazthat> sipa: ah
137 2014-01-14 00:52:33 <realazthat> :(
138 2014-01-14 00:52:44 <realazthat> sipa: how hard is it to fork testnet?
139 2014-01-14 00:53:19 <realazthat> or alternatively, are there any forks existing in testnet?
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142 2014-01-14 00:53:39 <realazthat> erm, that doesn't matter, I wouldn't be able to get the bad part :(
143 2014-01-14 00:53:56 <warren> realazthat: very easy to fork it given difficulty drops to minimum after 20 minutes of no blocks
144 2014-01-14 00:54:04 <gmaxwell> realazthat: sure there are forks on testnet.
145 2014-01-14 00:54:16 <gmaxwell> I have a blockchain file for testnet here with a several thousand block long fork.
146 2014-01-14 00:54:25 <realazthat> gmaxwell: oh can I have that
147 2014-01-14 00:54:32 <gmaxwell> yea, lemme find
148 2014-01-14 00:54:34 <realazthat> I can feed that into my bitcoind, right
149 2014-01-14 00:54:52 <realazthat> gmaxwell: bonus, any double spends?
150 2014-01-14 00:55:03 <gmaxwell> No, no double spends, I think.
151 2014-01-14 00:55:09 <realazthat> ok
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153 2014-01-14 00:55:51 <gmaxwell> crud. it's not on my laptop.
154 2014-01-14 00:56:16 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: would you happen to have the old testnet3 blockchain which was reorged away handy
155 2014-01-14 00:56:26 <sipa> gmaxwell: you didn't vaporize it, did you?
156 2014-01-14 00:56:44 <gmaxwell> sipa: testnet3? yea I wiped out and replaced the chain at one point.
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158 2014-01-14 00:56:58 <sipa> ah, so it's in the cloud!
159 2014-01-14 00:57:17 <gmaxwell> yea, the data exists... anyone who ran a testnet3 node from the start has it.
160 2014-01-14 00:57:31 jakov has quit (Quit: Leaving)
161 2014-01-14 00:57:52 <gmaxwell> well maybe its on this node, lemme reindex and see if I see a reorg.
162 2014-01-14 00:58:21 <realazthat> gmaxwell: btw, how can you see it
163 2014-01-14 00:58:25 <gmaxwell> oh wait, would a reindex preserve the orphans?
164 2014-01-14 00:58:37 sassamo has joined
165 2014-01-14 00:58:42 <gmaxwell> realazthat: "REORGANIZE:" in the log.
166 2014-01-14 00:58:48 <realazthat> ah cool
167 2014-01-14 00:58:55 <sipa> gmaxwell: no, but it will retain side chains :p
168 2014-01-14 00:59:11 <gmaxwell> stupid language... :P
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170 2014-01-14 01:00:04 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Hrm. Not sure. I have a long-running testnet3 node. No clue whether it contains the old reorg stuff.
171 2014-01-14 01:00:25 <gmaxwell> man, why is shutdown taking forever lately.
172 2014-01-14 01:00:41 <gmaxwell> esp on my testnet node.. stop.. and three minutes later I give up and kill -9
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174 2014-01-14 01:01:13 <midnightmagic> virtually instantaneous for me.
175 2014-01-14 01:01:24 <gmaxwell> darn, the blockfiles on my laptop don't appear to have the sidechain.
176 2014-01-14 01:01:42 <midnightmagic> right now, how were you detecting whether the reorg existed? -loadblocks?
177 2014-01-14 01:03:12 <sidhujag> Hey guys im looking at the merged-mined blocks and seeing that the hash of the current block is not existing in the scriptsig of the coinbase TX in the merge-mine header... like it is here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Merged_mining_specification with the hash d8a7c3e01e1e95bcee015e6fcc7583a2ca60b79e5a3aa0a171eddd344ada903d coming after the merged-mine mask
178 2014-01-14 01:03:32 <sidhujag> is the spec out of date?
179 2014-01-14 01:04:06 <warren> wumpus: sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3383 regarding the change of isMine from bool to isminetype, it remains type "bool" in some parts of the code, is this intended?
180 2014-01-14 01:04:14 hoffmabc has joined
181 2014-01-14 01:04:44 <sipa> warren: depends which layer you're talking about
182 2014-01-14 01:05:25 <sipa> can you give an example?
183 2014-01-14 01:05:51 <warren> src/qt/addresstablemodel.h: void updateEntry(const QString &address, const QString &label, bool isMine, const QString &purpose, int status);
184 2014-01-14 01:05:52 <warren> src/qt/walletmodel.h: void updateAddressBook(const QString &address, const QString &label, bool isMine, const QString &purpose, int status);
185 2014-01-14 01:05:52 <warren> src/qt/addresstablemodel.cpp:static AddressTableEntry::Type translateTransactionType(const QString &strPurpose, bool isMine)
186 2014-01-14 01:05:53 <warren> and a few others
187 2014-01-14 01:06:11 <sipa> oh, i have no clue about the gui
188 2014-01-14 01:06:37 <warren> src/wallet.h: &address, const std::string &label, bool isMine,
189 2014-01-14 01:06:40 <warren> not gui
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191 2014-01-14 01:09:03 <sipa> warren: the return value of IsMine(CTransaction) is supposed to be a bool - it should be called "IsRelevantToMe", as it could just as easily be a mix
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194 2014-01-14 01:09:53 <warren> ShouldICare()
195 2014-01-14 01:10:12 <sipa> for NotifyAddressBookChanged it could be made into isminetype, if the GUI uses/needs that information
196 2014-01-14 01:10:21 <sipa> i'll comment
197 2014-01-14 01:10:50 <warren> I ran into a problem with NotifyAddressBookChanged where it changes isminetype from 0 to 1 if you update the label of a watchonly address.
198 2014-01-14 01:11:07 <warren> but that's in 0.8 where SetAddressBook is different
199 2014-01-14 01:11:15 <warren> it lacks a "purpose" parameter
200 2014-01-14 01:11:18 <warren> not sure if I need to add that
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213 2014-01-14 01:34:26 <lechuga__> finally got testnet to accept my crazy txn
214 2014-01-14 01:34:33 <lechuga__> that literally took the better part of a day
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217 2014-01-14 01:36:49 <lechuga__> hey wizkid057
218 2014-01-14 01:37:01 <lechuga__> will Eligius' pushtxn.php accept non-standard txns?
219 2014-01-14 01:37:15 <wizkid057> some
220 2014-01-14 01:37:44 <lechuga__> im trying to make an external state (oracle) contract/claim sequence happen
221 2014-01-14 01:37:52 <lechuga__> think i migth get lucky?
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223 2014-01-14 01:38:04 <lechuga__> its just a multisig with a <hash> OP_DROP prepended
224 2014-01-14 01:38:08 <wizkid057> I'd much rather stick with bitcoin related transactions
225 2014-01-14 01:38:13 <wizkid057> and not non-bitcoin spam
226 2014-01-14 01:38:19 <lechuga__> it is for bitcoins
227 2014-01-14 01:38:43 <lechuga__> the contract/claim r for the promise/redemption of coins
228 2014-01-14 01:38:55 <wizkid057> interesting
229 2014-01-14 01:39:02 <wizkid057> feel free to give it a shot
230 2014-01-14 01:39:07 <lechuga__> k thx
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233 2014-01-14 01:43:47 <lechuga__> wizkid057: one more thing
234 2014-01-14 01:44:07 <lechuga__> does that php script just call 'sednrawtransaction' on a modded bitcoind?
235 2014-01-14 01:44:14 <lechuga__> sendrawtransaction*
236 2014-01-14 01:45:08 <lechuga__> or is it hooked into eloipool or something
237 2014-01-14 01:45:08 <lianj> if only one pool accepts your txs, don't rely on it to keep doing that
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240 2014-01-14 01:45:50 <lechuga__> lianj: yeah this just to see if i can actually do it
241 2014-01-14 01:46:01 <lechuga__> dont plan on spamming them with these or anything
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249 2014-01-14 01:50:19 <wizkid057> lechuga__: it calls sendrawtransaction on a modded bitcoind that is directly peered to the internal pool servers
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251 2014-01-14 01:52:05 <lechuga__> cool thx again
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258 2014-01-14 02:05:24 <sidhujag> noone knows the answer to mine?
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261 2014-01-14 02:10:46 <petertodd> lechuga__: you don't need OP_DROP for that, use OP_RETURN instead, or better yet, a pubkey
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287 2014-01-14 02:41:27 <energymvr> Anyone know much about the notify message for stratum pool to send work to the connected miner?
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290 2014-01-14 02:51:25 <lechuga__> petertodd: im following https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_4:_Using_external_state fairly strictly
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370 2014-01-14 04:33:36 <RommelVR> hey all, anyone here able to just clarify something in regards to vout for me? :p
371 2014-01-14 04:33:50 Application has joined
372 2014-01-14 04:34:17 <RommelVR> (and is this the right channel to be asking questions?)
373 2014-01-14 04:35:09 <andytoshi> RommelVR: you're probably okay -- and just ask, being told to go to #bitcoin is no big deal
374 2014-01-14 04:36:29 <RommelVR> andytoshi: its OK, just in wording my question I've figured out where I was wrong in my thinking. Should probably put that rubber duck back on my desk.
375 2014-01-14 04:36:41 <RommelVR> andytoshi: cheers ;)
376 2014-01-14 04:36:47 <andytoshi> excellent, glad we could help :)
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492 2014-01-14 07:39:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|6:26:08 <RommelVR> ... Should probably put that rubber duck back on my desk.
493 2014-01-14 07:39:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What rubber duck?
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555 2014-01-14 08:59:36 <jouke_> the -timeout setting, is that client side only? Or do I need to set it on the server as well? Because 'listtransactions "*" 999999' seems to time out.
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562 2014-01-14 09:01:27 <twizt> anyone know if these are good
563 2014-01-14 09:01:28 <twizt> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/tips0850.html
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584 2014-01-14 09:36:30 <wumpus> Jouke: timeout is for the P2P protocol, it does not affect RPC connections
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586 2014-01-14 09:36:58 <Jouke> Ah ok.
587 2014-01-14 09:37:52 <wumpus> hmm looking at the master source it doesn't seem to be used *at all*... that's funny
588 2014-01-14 09:38:20 <wumpus> oh.. it is, just as a default argument, never mind
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590 2014-01-14 09:40:11 <wumpus> in any case RPC connections should never time out
591 2014-01-14 09:41:18 <wumpus> if it does seem to time out during some commands that's a bug
592 2014-01-14 09:41:25 <Jouke> I get a "error: no response from server"
593 2014-01-14 09:41:54 <stonecoldpat> it takes a few minutes sometiems before an RPC will work
594 2014-01-14 09:41:57 <stonecoldpat> also make sure Bitcoind is running
595 2014-01-14 09:42:10 <stonecoldpat> if your making modifications - your code might break as you call your changes - and get a nerror like that
596 2014-01-14 09:42:33 <Jouke> bitcoind is running, I did not make changes.
597 2014-01-14 09:42:48 <Jouke> ./bitcoind listtransactions "*" 999999 > listtransactionserror: no response from server
598 2014-01-14 09:43:10 <Jouke> Too many transactions to list?
599 2014-01-14 09:43:15 <stonecoldpat> you may not be connected to any peers...?
600 2014-01-14 09:43:19 <stonecoldpat> could be .. try a smaller limit
601 2014-01-14 09:44:01 sassamo has joined
602 2014-01-14 09:44:14 <stonecoldpat> check ur connected with people first, i think thats probably the issue, (its a remote command procedure, so even if its a local command, it still needs to be connected) as far as im aware
603 2014-01-14 09:44:17 <wumpus> does the server process die? could be it runs out of memory, or other resources
604 2014-01-14 09:44:25 <Jouke> wumpus: no it does not
605 2014-01-14 09:44:51 <Jouke> A smaller limmit does return transactiens
606 2014-01-14 09:45:21 <stonecoldpat> client probably runs out of memory trying to retrieve that many transactions? or it doesnt have that many (and so breaks down?)
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608 2014-01-14 09:47:48 <Jouke> no and no
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629 2014-01-14 10:07:27 <TD> good morning
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633 2014-01-14 10:08:50 <stonecoldpat> morning x
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681 2014-01-14 10:39:34 <petertodd> lechuga__: that page is out of date with respect to best practices - OP_DROP has very little support and may never be implemented as a standard transaction type, but you can get the exact same effect by encoding your contract hash or similar in either a OP_RETURN txout, or a fake pubkey in a CHECKMULTISIG txout. (better yet, a real pubkey with BIP32-style derivation of the contract hash based on the oracle's root pubkey)
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729 2014-01-14 11:46:20 <Happzz> https://blockchain.info/pools?timespan=24hrs
730 2014-01-14 11:46:23 <Happzz> time to worry?
731 2014-01-14 11:49:06 <keyboard> p2pool disappeared?
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733 2014-01-14 11:50:22 <matjeh> all the smaller pools i've mined at dissapeared
734 2014-01-14 11:50:29 <matjeh> the last one was HHTT
735 2014-01-14 11:51:06 <matjeh> the owner said it paid out more BTC than it mined (how does that happen?)
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744 2014-01-14 11:55:59 <kinlo> Happzz / matjeh: that's a discussion for #bitcoin, not here plz
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747 2014-01-14 11:59:05 <Happzz> kinlo i don't see why.
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749 2014-01-14 12:00:31 <SomeoneWeird> matjeh, pps
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753 2014-01-14 12:02:49 <kinlo> sigh...
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755 2014-01-14 12:03:30 <matjeh> SomeoneWeird: i mean, someone who is obviously not a mathematician comes up with a scheme like PPS :p
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930 2014-01-14 15:12:04 <helo> if a node sees a block at the same height as one it has already accepted, but the new block has a lower hash (more work), will it orphan the first block to get a chain with higher total work?
931 2014-01-14 15:12:59 <sipa> the amount of total work is not determined by the hash
932 2014-01-14 15:13:30 <sipa> it's determined by how difficult it was to create the block
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934 2014-01-14 15:13:57 <sipa> (the formula is: work(block) = 2^256 / (block.target + 1))
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936 2014-01-14 15:15:02 <helo> oh. i thought it used block.hash instead of block.target in your eqn
937 2014-01-14 15:15:12 <sipa> that would lead to huge variance
938 2014-01-14 15:15:40 <sipa> how hard it is to create a block is set in advance, by the target
939 2014-01-14 15:15:58 <helo> sure, that makes sense
940 2014-01-14 15:15:59 <sipa> there are a well-known number of valid hashes and a number of invalid hashes
941 2014-01-14 15:16:17 <sipa> however, if you create a new block which has a total amount of work that is higher, we will reorganize
942 2014-01-14 15:16:30 <sipa> (which requires a retarget to happen in between)
943 2014-01-14 15:16:32 <helo> hearing over and over "it's highest total work, not chain height" made me start thinking it was based on individual hashes
944 2014-01-14 15:16:56 <sipa> right, i guess that's a reasonable guess
945 2014-01-14 15:17:20 <sipa> but it's still true; the only way it makes a difference is if there is a retarget in the part of the chain being reorganized
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947 2014-01-14 15:18:32 <helo> right. thanks
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992 2014-01-14 16:24:57 <EasyAt> Is there a hard limit on the size of a transaction that the reference client will no longer forward?
993 2014-01-14 16:25:12 <jgarzik> various limits under various conditions
994 2014-01-14 16:25:18 <jgarzik> 5000 bytes is one barrier
995 2014-01-14 16:25:28 <EasyAt> So, I could theoretically take up an entire block
996 2014-01-14 16:25:36 <jgarzik> sure
997 2014-01-14 16:25:47 <brisque> more than 100k isn't standard though, right?
998 2014-01-14 16:25:56 zcopley has joined
999 2014-01-14 16:26:44 <jgarzik> I think even 100k will relay, given proper fees?
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1002 2014-01-14 16:26:56 <jgarzik> 100k _orphan_ will not get relayed
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1004 2014-01-14 16:27:25 <brisque> MAX_STANDARD_TX_SIZE = 100000;
1005 2014-01-14 16:27:27 <gmaxwell> main.h:static const unsigned int MAX_STANDARD_TX_SIZE = 100000;
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1008 2014-01-14 16:28:20 <gmaxwell> IIRC there is a stupid dos attack that we're avoiding with that.
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1011 2014-01-14 16:28:47 <brisque> "Limiting transactions to MAX_STANDARD_TX_SIZE mitigates CPU exhaustion attacks."
1012 2014-01-14 16:28:49 <gmaxwell> (basically when a transaction is validate all its inputs are pulled into memory. So we can use memory related to the maximum size squared)
1013 2014-01-14 16:29:14 <gmaxwell> hm or maybe I misremember
1014 2014-01-14 16:29:34 <brisque> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/266921e70ffcfa8d9c930284aaf02fd2d9b69109/src/main.cpp#L373
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1016 2014-01-14 16:29:54 <gmaxwell> in any case, there is a nearly 1 million byte transaction transaction in the testnet chain.
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1018 2014-01-14 16:30:46 <brisque> I'm sure at some point we will have a miner that decides to fill 1MB blocks just because they can.
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1020 2014-01-14 16:31:25 <brisque> off testnet, I mean.
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1022 2014-01-14 16:31:52 <phillipsjk> Saw this waring in the 0.8.6 Release notes: "There have been frequent reports of users running out of virtual memory on 32-bit systems" -- does this imply I need more than 4GB of RAM+swap for a full node?
1023 2014-01-14 16:32:07 <TD> no
1024 2014-01-14 16:32:08 <brisque> for syncing it initially
1025 2014-01-14 16:32:15 <TD> a lot of the address space is used for leveldb mmapped files, or used to be
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1028 2014-01-14 16:32:33 <brisque> a running node uses < 200MB if you -disablewallet in the configuration.
1029 2014-01-14 16:32:35 <wumpus> phillipsjk: not really, certainly not if you use the blockchain torrent
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1031 2014-01-14 16:32:50 <phillipsjk> TD: the mmapp thing was only replaced in OSx.
1032 2014-01-14 16:33:18 <phillipsjk> wumpus: I was planning to use the .torrent, actually.
1033 2014-01-14 16:33:23 <wumpus> initial sync takes a lot of memory due to orphans storage, and indeed virtual memory due to mmaps (but those are different things, the virtual memory problem doesn't exist on 64 bit whereas the orphans problem does)
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1036 2014-01-14 16:34:11 <wumpus> there's a pull you can help test that reduces orphans storage, let's see, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3514
1037 2014-01-14 16:34:14 <phillipsjk> so the problem is that the virtual memory has sparse storage?
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1039 2014-01-14 16:35:02 <phillipsjk> I suppose upwards of 1GB is just not useable on 32bit systems.
1040 2014-01-14 16:35:05 <wumpus> phillipsjk: 32-bit systems only have 2-3GB of virtual memory for a process, the database files are much bigger
1041 2014-01-14 16:35:08 <EasyAt> Is there a rough estimate when the ops for xor, mult, cat etc... will be allowed?
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1046 2014-01-14 16:35:53 <wumpus> phillipsjk: hm no that's wrong, the database files aren't that big... still, leveldb likes to allocate a lot of it :)
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1048 2014-01-14 16:36:37 <brisque> EasyAt: can't imagine it's going to happen soon. even if it was planned it's not a one update change.
1049 2014-01-14 16:36:50 <phillipsjk> I think I am running a PAE 32Bit kernel on this machine (though not using if for Bitcoind) would that help at all?
1050 2014-01-14 16:37:12 <wumpus> no, that extends Physical Address space
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1052 2014-01-14 16:37:54 <wumpus> so you can address more RAM memory on the system as a whole. within one process, that doesn't help you
1053 2014-01-14 16:38:25 <wumpus> in any case, if you use the blockchain torrent you should be ok
1054 2014-01-14 16:38:39 <phillipsjk> Well, my planned Bitcoin node is running a 64bit kernel, so the concern is moot other than physical RAM.
1055 2014-01-14 16:39:22 zcopley has joined
1056 2014-01-14 16:39:26 <phillipsjk> For some reason my machine sees an extra 124MB after pulling a 2MB video card :P
1057 2014-01-14 16:40:06 <phillipsjk> Thanks for the help.
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1060 2014-01-14 16:41:24 <wumpus> it also reserves I/O mmap space and such for video cards, although 128Mb sounds like a lot indeed
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1063 2014-01-14 16:42:49 <wumpus> mmio*
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1065 2014-01-14 16:43:06 <phillipsjk> Pretty sure it was a slightly "odd" number like 124 :)
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1067 2014-01-14 16:43:44 <phillipsjk> Maybe 128-4MB
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1069 2014-01-14 16:44:54 <phillipsjk> RS-232 FTW.
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1086 2014-01-14 16:54:04 <EasyAt> If those/sc
1087 2014-01-14 16:54:09 <EasyAt> whoops
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1115 2014-01-14 17:19:48 <Burrito> Is there any way of getting Bitcoin's "estimated total blocks" from the RPC API?
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1119 2014-01-14 17:22:05 <Burrito> Or, more directly, is there any way to judge whether it is downloading or syncing through the RPC API?
1120 2014-01-14 17:22:22 <Burrito> (or indexing)
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1126 2014-01-14 17:36:24 <EasyAt> getblockcount
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1130 2014-01-14 17:36:42 <EasyAt> Run it a couple times apart and blockheight should increase while syncing
1131 2014-01-14 17:38:51 <Burrito> hm, okay
1132 2014-01-14 17:39:40 <EasyAt> There's probably a nicer way to do it
1133 2014-01-14 17:40:14 <sipa> Burrito: the best heuristic is looking at the timestamp of the latest block
1134 2014-01-14 17:40:20 <Burrito> So far I've written it so that it compares values from Blockchain.info, Blockr.io, and Block Explorer. I thought there was actually a nicer way.
1135 2014-01-14 17:40:23 <Burrito> Ah
1136 2014-01-14 17:40:27 <sipa> internally, bitcoin uses more heuristics than that, but they're all flaky
1137 2014-01-14 17:40:41 <sipa> there is no real answer to that question... it is *always* syncing
1138 2014-01-14 17:40:49 <sipa> from a technical point
1139 2014-01-14 17:41:21 <Burrito> Okay, thanks
1140 2014-01-14 17:43:20 <EasyAt> sipa: Is there a list of reasons somehwere detailing why some opcodes are disabled
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1143 2014-01-14 17:44:31 <sipa> the only reason is "satoshi disabled them at some point, because they were insufficiently tested for DoS potential and other bugs"
1144 2014-01-14 17:44:52 <TD> also nobody really found compelling uses for most of them
1145 2014-01-14 17:44:59 <TD> so there wasn't much incentive to reactivate them
1146 2014-01-14 17:45:10 <sipa> true
1147 2014-01-14 17:45:21 <sipa> though since reenabling requires a hardfork...
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1149 2014-01-14 17:45:37 <sipa> there would need to be some compelling reason at least
1150 2014-01-14 17:45:55 <EasyAt> I thought it be fun to have bounty transactions. Where someone satisfies some problem to optain the outputs... I can't think of any good applications, though
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1155 2014-01-14 17:48:18 <brisque> there's one in the blockchain that if you can make a SHA1 collision you win a few BTC
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1158 2014-01-14 17:48:54 <EasyAt> brisque: exactly
1159 2014-01-14 17:49:00 <EasyAt> Something a bit more useful would be nice, heh
1160 2014-01-14 17:49:02 <brisque> sha1(a) == sha1(b) && a != b
1161 2014-01-14 17:49:08 <maaku> EasyAt: really? if script was a bit more expressive there's tons of applications
1162 2014-01-14 17:49:09 <sipa> yeah that's about the only useful thing you can do now
1163 2014-01-14 17:49:20 <EasyAt> maaku: I mean with the currenct script
1164 2014-01-14 17:49:27 <EasyAt> scirpt ops*
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1166 2014-01-14 17:51:46 <EasyAt> I finally really dug into the scripting side last night and just can't stop thinking about the applications
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1173 2014-01-14 17:53:17 * maaku spent last night playing with replacing script with Joy
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1175 2014-01-14 17:53:59 <EasyAt> maaku: script with joy?
1176 2014-01-14 17:54:16 <maaku> EasyAt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_%28programming_language%29
1177 2014-01-14 17:54:35 <maaku> it's a more theoretically grounded descendent of Forth
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1188 2014-01-14 18:04:54 <EasyAt> maaku: Interesting
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1193 2014-01-14 18:05:51 <sipa> dang, i made bitcoind do a full sync on #3514 on valgrind
1194 2014-01-14 18:06:02 <sipa> ... laptop shut down because of overheating
1195 2014-01-14 18:06:23 <maaku> yeah it's turing-complete, so what you'd have to do is prefix the scriptSig with the # of executed instructions for fee purposes, which is checked as part of validation
1196 2014-01-14 18:06:35 <maaku> you'd probably want to Merklize it too
1197 2014-01-14 18:06:43 <maaku> (this is more of a -wizards discussion)
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1202 2014-01-14 18:08:48 <EasyAt> maaku: If we had a turing complete scripting language wouldn't I be able to create a bunch of bogus TXs and have it eat a bunch of CPU before the receiving nodes throw the TX out?
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1204 2014-01-14 18:09:24 <maaku> EasyAt: computation stops once you exceed the specified instruction count
1205 2014-01-14 18:10:11 <maaku> transactions without sufficient fee are ignored or brown listed
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1207 2014-01-14 18:10:45 <maaku> and if a txn with invalid instruction count is found, its inputs could be brown listed
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1209 2014-01-14 18:11:35 <sipa> maaku: you'd need a (reachable) per-block instruction count limit too
1210 2014-01-14 18:11:35 <EasyAt> maaku: They'd have to execute all those operations before they realized it was bogus, no?
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1212 2014-01-14 18:11:52 <sipa> as otherwise miners have no reason to enforce that fee per operation
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1216 2014-01-14 18:13:34 <maaku> sipa: yes, definately
1217 2014-01-14 18:13:54 andyo has quit (Quit: Bye)
1218 2014-01-14 18:14:03 <maaku> also for DoS reasons (like the sigop limit)
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1223 2014-01-14 18:23:16 <btcNeverSleeps> Hey everyone... I'm a software dev but haven't done any programming yet related to bitcoin. I've got a question regarding "user logging" on a site on which the user would have a bitcoin balance. Instead of implementing two-factor auth and using the usual password + google 2FA etc., would it make sense to ask the user to send 1 satoshi from its wallet so that he would login?
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1225 2014-01-14 18:24:39 <Luke-Jr> btcNeverSleeps: no
1226 2014-01-14 18:24:42 <dmanderson> Not if it has to wait to make it into the block
1227 2014-01-14 18:24:52 <btcNeverSleeps> Luke-Jr: can you develop a bit?
1228 2014-01-14 18:24:52 <Luke-Jr> btcNeverSleeps: Bitcoin is a currency, not an authentication system
1229 2014-01-14 18:24:54 <dmanderson> your user could be waiting a LONG time for 1 Satoshi to who up
1230 2014-01-14 18:25:06 <Luke-Jr> btcNeverSleeps: you can use signed messages though
1231 2014-01-14 18:25:21 <btcNeverSleeps> Luke-Jr: bitcoin ain't a decentralized trusted timestamp system, it's a currency... Yet people use it for decentralized timestamps right?
1232 2014-01-14 18:25:33 <btcNeverSleeps> dmanderson: one block at most... No need for confirmation.
1233 2014-01-14 18:25:44 <maaku> btcNeverSleeps: look up signed messages
1234 2014-01-14 18:25:54 <btcNeverSleeps> maaku: ok, going to read on that
1235 2014-01-14 18:25:57 <Luke-Jr> btcNeverSleeps: in theory, one could develop a timestamping system with bitcoin technology, but it hasn't really been done yet
1236 2014-01-14 18:25:58 <dmanderson> the user could still be waiting a long time for 1 Satoshi to make it into the block
1237 2014-01-14 18:26:12 <Luke-Jr> btcNeverSleeps: and timestamping isn't authentication
1238 2014-01-14 18:26:31 <Luke-Jr> btcNeverSleeps: Bitcoin-OTC and Eligius use signed messages as a kind of authentication successfully
1239 2014-01-14 18:26:39 <btcNeverSleeps> Luke-Jr: I know, I know... My point was that it's more than just a currency or a medium of exchange.
1240 2014-01-14 18:26:47 <btcNeverSleeps> Luke-Jr: oh, that is very interesting
1241 2014-01-14 18:27:07 <Luke-Jr> basically a signed message proves the person who receives funds sent to a given address agrees to some contract
1242 2014-01-14 18:27:27 Zarutian has joined
1243 2014-01-14 18:27:30 <Luke-Jr> btcNeverSleeps: Bitcoin itself *is* just a currency, even if the technology could be expanded outside of that.
1244 2014-01-14 18:27:42 <Luke-Jr> btcNeverSleeps: such expansion wouldn't use the bitcoin blockchain, for example
1245 2014-01-14 18:28:42 <phillipsjk> btcNeverSleeps, You can get your users to decrypt a challenge string with one of thier private keys, but you might as well just use OpenPGP for that.
1246 2014-01-14 18:29:04 <dmanderson> Andreas Antonopoulos would challenge the 'just a currency' statement ;-)
1247 2014-01-14 18:29:15 mattco1 has joined
1248 2014-01-14 18:29:28 <btcNeverSleeps> Another very related question then: say I were to write an exchange (I'm definitely not, it's theoretical), would you recommend I implement the traditional "username+password+optional TFA" as most sites do or that I'd try to use signed messages as a kind of authentication system?
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1253 2014-01-14 18:30:45 <phillipsjk> the #bitcoin-otc bot uses the challenge string method.
1254 2014-01-14 18:31:24 <phillipsjk> The info is also used to build a "web of trust"
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1256 2014-01-14 18:32:02 <btcNeverSleeps> Luke-Jr: reading your msg here: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=31590964 (I take it it's yours ; )
1257 2014-01-14 18:32:21 <phillipsjk> I think you average user would be bewildered by such a requirement though.
1258 2014-01-14 18:35:16 zeiris has joined
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1260 2014-01-14 18:37:55 <Luke-Jr> phillipsjk: ECDSA/Bitcoin don't support encryption :P
1261 2014-01-14 18:38:42 <phillipsjk> I did not want to say have your user sign a challenge message :P
1262 2014-01-14 18:39:09 cads has joined
1263 2014-01-14 18:39:57 <Luke-Jr> phillipsjk: why not?
1264 2014-01-14 18:40:59 <phillipsjk> Usually blindly signing random messages is a bad idea.
1265 2014-01-14 18:41:46 <Luke-Jr> phillipsjk: of course it is, that's why you don't make it random
1266 2014-01-14 18:42:25 <shesek> isn't it what gribble does?
1267 2014-01-14 18:42:29 TD is now known as TD[gone]
1268 2014-01-14 18:42:34 <Luke-Jr> "2014-01-14: This message validates the authentication of login to the 'foobar' account from IP 2002:2042:2320::2."
1269 2014-01-14 18:42:45 <phillipsjk> Just make it "log me in to site.com on this date:time"?
1270 2014-01-14 18:42:47 <Luke-Jr> shesek: I didn't say gribble was a *good* implementation :/
1271 2014-01-14 18:42:53 <Luke-Jr> right, site name is good too
1272 2014-01-14 18:42:59 <shesek> Luke-Jr, I'd probably add the site name there too
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1274 2014-01-14 18:43:06 <shesek> oh, yes, what phillipsjk just said
1275 2014-01-14 18:43:33 <jcorgan> the site could send a random challenge string, the user XORs that with his own randomly chosen string, then sends a signed version of the result and his string. The site can verify the signature, but has no incentive to send malicious hashes as the actual signature would be on random data
1276 2014-01-14 18:44:12 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: ⦠no
1277 2014-01-14 18:44:50 <shesek> though, coming to think about, if users were to use separate signing addresses for each service, using random challenge strings wouldn't really be a problem
1278 2014-01-14 18:44:51 <jcorgan> please correct me. i'm still working through my first cup of coffee this morning.
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1280 2014-01-14 18:46:03 <Luke-Jr> signing random data = bad :p
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1282 2014-01-14 18:46:24 <gmaxwell> I nagged nanotube to change gribble's behavior but doing so would break varrious people's autologin things.
1283 2014-01-14 18:46:54 <jcorgan> it would be instructive for me to understand where the above protocol goes wrong
1284 2014-01-14 18:47:07 <jcorgan> and perhaps embarrasing as well
1285 2014-01-14 18:47:07 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: it teaches a bad lesson
1286 2014-01-14 18:47:40 <phillipsjk> jcorgan, one problem is that the user has to do something special before signing
1287 2014-01-14 18:47:58 sassamo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1288 2014-01-14 18:48:15 <shesek> jcorgan, if everyone were to use that xor-with-random-data thing, it doesn't really do any good
1289 2014-01-14 18:48:21 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: nanotube: ;;bcauth2
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1291 2014-01-14 18:48:51 <shesek> user tried to login to service A, service A goes to service B where that user also has an account and gets the challenge string, the user sends his sig/random data to service A, then service A uses that to login to service B
1292 2014-01-14 18:48:58 <shesek> * tries
1293 2014-01-14 18:49:31 <shesek> if both A and B uses what you're suggesting, it wouldn't really help
1294 2014-01-14 18:49:50 <gmaxwell> shesek: Yea, I demonstrated this attack in bitcoin-otc a while back with some crappy service that had copied gribble's auth.
1295 2014-01-14 18:49:56 <jcorgan> got it, thanks.
1296 2014-01-14 18:50:24 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I tried to, but the target noticed I wasn't the real gribble XD
1297 2014-01-14 18:50:53 <gmaxwell> (gpg auth) they gave the user an encrypted message with a not-obviously site specific challenge string in it and asked the user to decrypt. So I just went to authenticate as a user and then said "Hey, I'm testing something, can you decrypt this for me?"
1298 2014-01-14 18:50:57 <gmaxwell> and they did.
1299 2014-01-14 18:51:35 <shesek> gmaxwell, I'm not sure how it'll break auto-login scripts, mitigating this should be as simple as changing the challenge string to "I want to login to gribble, token: <random>"
1300 2014-01-14 18:52:03 <shesek> scripts would handle it in pretty much the same way (though it will be wise to verify the message starts with that prefix)
1301 2014-01-14 18:52:07 <Luke-Jr> shesek: needs the nickname too
1302 2014-01-14 18:52:17 <phillipsjk> The whole point of this discussion is that random==bad, no?
1303 2014-01-14 18:52:30 <Luke-Jr> phillipsjk: it's that random = social engineering permitted
1304 2014-01-14 18:52:39 <shesek> phillipsjk, I think that using only random is bad
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1306 2014-01-14 18:52:57 * phillipsjk sees distinction
1307 2014-01-14 18:53:01 <shesek> in addition to a readable message that says what its doing, I think its fine
1308 2014-01-14 18:53:02 <gmaxwell> there needs to be either a random part or a counter, in order to prevent replay.
1309 2014-01-14 18:53:13 <Luke-Jr> also, signed messages shoudl ALWAYS have a date on the front IMO
1310 2014-01-14 18:53:40 <Luke-Jr> maybe an hour for some uses
1311 2014-01-14 18:53:46 <phillipsjk> That is why my example had date:time: a well understood counter :)
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1313 2014-01-14 18:54:12 <shesek> ideally, I think the best solution it to just use signing for the actual actions the user is doing, and not for authentication
1314 2014-01-14 18:54:45 <Luke-Jr> ideally browsers would have PGP support builtin etc
1315 2014-01-14 18:54:49 <shesek> like, sign something like "2014-01-14: I, shesek, want to rate gmaxwell with +1: fast trade"
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1318 2014-01-14 18:55:21 <shesek> that also prevents gribble's operator (or someone who hacks gribble) from adding false ratings
1319 2014-01-14 18:55:30 * Luke-Jr scams shesek and then replays the positive rating later that night :P
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1321 2014-01-14 18:55:40 <shesek> the current way it works relies on gribble's operator to be honest
1322 2014-01-14 18:55:43 <Luke-Jr> shesek: only if the reader verifies it
1323 2014-01-14 18:56:02 <Luke-Jr> and very few people even verify their bitcoin client!
1324 2014-01-14 18:56:10 <shesek> Luke-Jr, re your /me - yeah, a random token is probably also needed there to prevent replay
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1326 2014-01-14 18:56:30 <Luke-Jr> shesek: random token requires a challenge
1327 2014-01-14 18:57:30 <shesek> well, yes - I would tell gribble I want to rate someone, he would reply with a challenge that I need to include in the message format ([timestamp]:[challenge] I, [me], wants to rate [someone] with [rating]: [text])
1328 2014-01-14 18:57:45 <Luke-Jr> too much effort, I will stop rating :P
1329 2014-01-14 18:58:27 <shesek> yeah, something like this does require some client to handle that process automatically, it is probably too much hassle
1330 2014-01-14 18:58:35 <shesek> that's why I said "ideally"
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1332 2014-01-14 18:59:35 <shesek> I'm planning to implement rating like that on Bitrated, where most users would do the signing client-side with javascript
1333 2014-01-14 18:59:40 tesserajk has joined
1334 2014-01-14 18:59:57 <shesek> but I think that users who won't trust bitrated to properly handle private keys are going to suffer from this process :-\
1335 2014-01-14 19:00:26 brson has joined
1336 2014-01-14 19:01:06 <shesek> (its optional - either provide a private key [that's handled client side and never sent to the server] and have things done automatically, or provide a public key and do that locally)
1337 2014-01-14 19:02:20 petertretyakov has joined
1338 2014-01-14 19:03:03 <shesek> I wonder if its worth the effort, though. I think its much better to have everything digitally signed (the service operator can't fake ratings on behalf of users), but I somewhat doubt anyone would care about this :-\
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1361 2014-01-14 19:34:44 <zone117x> when getblocktemplate is called, it contains an array of transactions. is it possible to call getblocktemplate again later and receive the SAME prevhash (so same block) yet updated array of transactions?
1362 2014-01-14 19:35:03 <zone117x> in other words, can the transactions array grow over time for a given block template?
1363 2014-01-14 19:35:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|zone117x: certainly.
1364 2014-01-14 19:36:36 giustoXricordarv has joined
1365 2014-01-14 19:38:28 <Luke-Jr> regularly..
1366 2014-01-14 19:39:32 <zone117x> hmmm so lets say I mine a block with a merkle root made from a transactions array that is missing the last 2 minutes of transactions. does the network accept it? what happens to the transactions from the last 2 minutes that I ignored?
1367 2014-01-14 19:39:38 Krellan_ has joined
1368 2014-01-14 19:40:25 <jaakkos> zone117x: those transactions just hang around in the mempool waiting to get to next block
1369 2014-01-14 19:40:37 <jaakkos> zone117x: and sure, the network will accept it
1370 2014-01-14 19:40:40 <gmaxwell> zone117x: of course it does, the blocks are what defines what the network knows about. If the network was already consistent we wouldn't need blocks.
1371 2014-01-14 19:41:05 <Luke-Jr> zone117x: miners are not in any sense required to accept transactions
1372 2014-01-14 19:41:38 <Luke-Jr> zone117x: you should, since it gives value to bitcoin (makes the system work) and you get transaction fees
1373 2014-01-14 19:42:00 <Luke-Jr> but in that sense, you should also not accept transactions that harm the network (eg, DDoS/flood attacks) if you can identify them
1374 2014-01-14 19:42:09 <zone117x> okay thank you for the info. so just to clarify... if I do getblocktemplate as soon as one is available, and there are only a handful of transactions.. then I find the block 9 minutes later. all of the transactions I ignored for those 9 minutes will simply be put into the next block template?
1375 2014-01-14 19:42:43 <Luke-Jr> they might or might not
1376 2014-01-14 19:42:48 <Luke-Jr> depends on your client's policy
1377 2014-01-14 19:42:54 <Luke-Jr> which you really SHOULD configure
1378 2014-01-14 19:43:01 <Luke-Jr> (future versions will require some level of miner configuration)
1379 2014-01-14 19:44:17 <zone117x> okay I see. say I decided to not accept any transactions and I mine 90% of the new blocks. the remaining 10% of blocks mined by other miners would probably be putting all the transactions into the blockchain?
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1382 2014-01-14 19:46:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|zone117x: just about, yes
1383 2014-01-14 19:46:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(though if you're mining 90% of all blocks, Bitcoin is in trouble...)
1384 2014-01-14 19:46:58 go1111111 has joined
1385 2014-01-14 19:48:02 <Luke-Jr> zone117x: just having 90% of the blocks makes you a threat to bitcoin and will probably kill its value
1386 2014-01-14 19:48:04 <Luke-Jr> fyi
1387 2014-01-14 19:48:19 <lechuga__> speaking of which
1388 2014-01-14 19:48:26 <lechuga__> luke-jr: have u peeped that merge req?
1389 2014-01-14 19:48:37 <Luke-Jr> lechuga__: yeah, left a few comments skimming over it
1390 2014-01-14 19:48:41 <lechuga__> oh great
1391 2014-01-14 19:49:08 <lechuga__> i was distracted by a personal project but ill get back to that and incorp feedback
1392 2014-01-14 19:49:13 <Luke-Jr> k
1393 2014-01-14 19:49:14 <Luke-Jr> no rush
1394 2014-01-14 19:49:21 <lechuga__> k
1395 2014-01-14 19:49:52 <lechuga__> i got my oracle experiment to work
1396 2014-01-14 19:49:56 <lechuga__> all in javascript
1397 2014-01-14 19:50:18 bonecoiner is now known as bitcoiner
1398 2014-01-14 19:50:36 <lechuga__> but now i have to figure out the next evolution of that idea
1399 2014-01-14 19:50:56 <lechuga__> re: the zero knowledge contingent payment stuff
1400 2014-01-14 19:51:16 ralphtheninja has quit (Quit: leaving)
1401 2014-01-14 19:51:29 <lechuga__> need to do a lot more reading before i beg gmaxwell to break it down for me
1402 2014-01-14 19:51:51 <lechuga__> but that seems extremely interesting
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1409 2014-01-14 19:57:41 <lechuga__> anyone know why multisig doesnt support pay to pubkeyhash?
1410 2014-01-14 20:00:03 <sipa> you can certainly construct an output script that that requires M-out-of-N signatures, for N given pubkey hashes
1411 2014-01-14 20:00:08 <sipa> but why would you want to do that?
1412 2014-01-14 20:00:20 <Luke-Jr> lechuga__: that doesn't make sense
1413 2014-01-14 20:00:34 <Luke-Jr> pay-to-pubkeyhash is a specific output form which is not multisig
1414 2014-01-14 20:00:48 <lechuga__> i guess rephrasing
1415 2014-01-14 20:01:01 <Luke-Jr> you could do what sipa said, but there is no standard form for it
1416 2014-01-14 20:01:02 <lechuga__> why cant multisig include pubkeyhashes in the scriptpubkey instead of full pubkeys
1417 2014-01-14 20:01:09 <EasyAt> Hm, would there be a way to write a script that is if hash(x) == a || b || c then outputs are spendable?
1418 2014-01-14 20:01:15 <lechuga__> and then script sig could have pubkeys and sigs
1419 2014-01-14 20:01:19 <Luke-Jr> lechuga__: it could, but nobody bothered to spec it
1420 2014-01-14 20:01:30 <sipa> EasyAt: sure
1421 2014-01-14 20:01:44 <lechuga__> i wonder why it wasnt part of BIP 0011
1422 2014-01-14 20:01:59 <sipa> first explain why you would want this?
1423 2014-01-14 20:02:25 <lechuga__> so you dont need to know peoples public keys to make a multisig contract
1424 2014-01-14 20:02:42 <sipa> people involved in the transaction already need to be aware of it, or they couldn't spend the coins
1425 2014-01-14 20:02:53 <lechuga__> i guess the claimant does
1426 2014-01-14 20:02:56 <lechuga__> yeah
1427 2014-01-14 20:02:57 <sipa> you can as well just ask their public keys, instead of asking their pubkeyhashes
1428 2014-01-14 20:03:05 <sipa> it's about 13 bytes data extra
1429 2014-01-14 20:03:05 <lechuga__> well
1430 2014-01-14 20:03:32 <lechuga__> no1 needs to share pubkeys
1431 2014-01-14 20:03:45 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1432 2014-01-14 20:03:48 <lechuga__> peopel can individual sign contracts
1433 2014-01-14 20:03:52 <lechuga__> individually*
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1435 2014-01-14 20:03:59 <sipa> a normal pay-to-pubkeyhash address is "pay to H(pubkey1)"
1436 2014-01-14 20:04:02 <lechuga__> er the claim rather
1437 2014-01-14 20:04:12 <sipa> a multisig version is "pay to H(pubkey1 or pubkey2 or pubkey2)"
1438 2014-01-14 20:04:29 <sipa> if i want to receive coins from you, i am giving you (the hash) my public key
1439 2014-01-14 20:04:33 <upb> how is that possible tho?
1440 2014-01-14 20:04:40 <lechuga__> a multisig scriptpubkey contains full pubkeys
1441 2014-01-14 20:04:44 <upb> hashing an or constructor
1442 2014-01-14 20:04:46 <upb> -or
1443 2014-01-14 20:04:54 <sipa> if EasyAt and me want to receive coins from you, i am giving you (the hash of) out public keys
1444 2014-01-14 20:05:16 <sipa> lechuga__: oh, you're talking about direct multisig, not p2sh?
1445 2014-01-14 20:05:21 <lechuga__> ya
1446 2014-01-14 20:05:45 <lechuga__> sorry im pretty bad at terminology still learning
1447 2014-01-14 20:05:57 <sipa> there it's easier: OP_CHECKSIG takes public keys, not public key hashes
1448 2014-01-14 20:06:03 <lechuga__> right
1449 2014-01-14 20:06:09 <lechuga__> and i would prefer it took hashes
1450 2014-01-14 20:06:17 <sipa> there is absolutely no point
1451 2014-01-14 20:06:22 <lechuga__> i mean u could contrcut a script so it does support it
1452 2014-01-14 20:06:24 <lechuga__> but then its nonstandard
1453 2014-01-14 20:06:31 <sipa> if you use p2sh, it's even more obvious
1454 2014-01-14 20:06:40 <lechuga__> people transact with addresses generally right?
1455 2014-01-14 20:06:46 <lechuga__> and derive pubkeyhash from addr
1456 2014-01-14 20:07:05 <sipa> an address is a short template for constructing a txout script
1457 2014-01-14 20:07:20 <sipa> there is no address defined for direct multisig either
1458 2014-01-14 20:07:32 <sipa> but there is one for p2sh
1459 2014-01-14 20:07:42 ovidiusoft has joined
1460 2014-01-14 20:07:59 <sipa> which embodies all cases, and the receiver doesn't even need to know what kind of script he is sending coins to (as he doesn't care)
1461 2014-01-14 20:08:16 bitsimple has joined
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1463 2014-01-14 20:09:03 <sipa> lechuga__: maybe another reason, when doing things correctly (and hopefully in the future we'll have more infrastructure for making that easy), you don't ever reuse an address
1464 2014-01-14 20:09:25 <sipa> right now, addresses are often given as a permanent destination to send coins to
1465 2014-01-14 20:09:42 <sipa> but this has very bad privacy implications (for you, and everyone else using the system)
1466 2014-01-14 20:10:17 <sipa> if you're going to create a new address for a multisig operation, and you need to get 3 public keys to the sender, or you need to get 3 public key hashes to the sender
1467 2014-01-14 20:10:27 <sipa> does this make any difference, expect sending 39 more bytes?
1468 2014-01-14 20:10:37 <sipa> (or if you're using p2sh, the exact same amount)
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1470 2014-01-14 20:11:03 <lechuga__> i need to construct example case to illustrate wat im getting at
1471 2014-01-14 20:11:10 <lechuga__> bear with me
1472 2014-01-14 20:11:29 * sipa sends bear to lechuga__
1473 2014-01-14 20:11:32 <lechuga__> lol
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1476 2014-01-14 20:14:13 <gmaxwell> /ctcp lechuga__ bear
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1478 2014-01-14 20:14:51 [Author] has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
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1483 2014-01-14 20:18:16 <lechuga__> ok
1484 2014-01-14 20:18:21 <lechuga__> think i have example
1485 2014-01-14 20:18:29 <lechuga__> heres current multisig
1486 2014-01-14 20:18:34 <lechuga__> scriptPubKey = 2 <sons pubkey> <oracle pubkey> 2 OP_CHECKMULTISIG
1487 2014-01-14 20:18:35 <lechuga__> scriptSig = OP_0 <sons sig> <oracle sig>
1488 2014-01-14 20:18:40 <lechuga__> what im wondering is why isnt
1489 2014-01-14 20:18:47 <lechuga__> scriptPubKey = OP_DUP2 OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <sons pubkeyhash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <oracle pubkeyhash> OP_EQUALVERIFY 2 OP_CHECKMULTISIG
1490 2014-01-14 20:18:51 <lechuga__> scriptSig = OP_0 <oracle sig> <sons sig> <oracle pubkey> <sons pubkey>
1491 2014-01-14 20:18:53 <lechuga__> supported
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1493 2014-01-14 20:19:01 <lechuga__> not 100% sure that script evaluates properly but hopefully u get the idea
1494 2014-01-14 20:19:36 <lechuga__> yeah im missing an OP_2 in there
1495 2014-01-14 20:20:45 <lechuga__> making any sense?
1496 2014-01-14 20:21:02 <gavinandresen> Not supported because it is more complicated, and simpler is better.
1497 2014-01-14 20:21:29 <lechuga__> wouldnt it be easier form the user perspective in that they only need to know peoples' addresses?
1498 2014-01-14 20:21:33 <lechuga__> from*
1499 2014-01-14 20:21:50 <gavinandresen> I don't expect users to know addresses at all....
1500 2014-01-14 20:22:00 <lechuga__> well form scanning a friend's QR code etc
1501 2014-01-14 20:22:02 <lechuga__> from*
1502 2014-01-14 20:22:06 <gavinandresen> ⦠I certainly don't know anybody's bitcoin address. Even my own.
1503 2014-01-14 20:22:18 <lechuga__> u know where to find their QR codes persumably
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1505 2014-01-14 20:22:27 <lechuga__> or see references to addresses on web pages asking for tips
1506 2014-01-14 20:22:40 <gavinandresen> Oh, scanning a QR code. That'll be a payment request in the future, or maybe some sort of setup-a-multisig-txn thingie-mabob that your wallet understands.
1507 2014-01-14 20:22:40 <lechuga__> this keyboard is terrible
1508 2014-01-14 20:22:48 <shesek> it is somewhat easier to deal with addresses because public keys are not easily accessible from the UI
1509 2014-01-14 20:23:01 <shesek> and because addresses don't have a standard base58check encoding
1510 2014-01-14 20:23:25 <gavinandresen> you mean full public keys don't have a standard base48check
1511 2014-01-14 20:23:26 <shesek> but I don't think that's a good enough reason to do multisig with pubkeyhash instead
1512 2014-01-14 20:23:29 <gavinandresen> 58check
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1514 2014-01-14 20:23:44 <shesek> oh, oops, right - that is what I meant
1515 2014-01-14 20:24:07 <gavinandresen> Right, users shouldn't be messing with the pieces of a multisig, ever. Too error-prone.
1516 2014-01-14 20:24:56 <lechuga__> they wouldnt but theyd ned to provide input to one
1517 2014-01-14 20:25:00 <shesek> gavinandresen, yeah, once its part of desktop clients, they shouldn't ever have to deal with it
1518 2014-01-14 20:25:04 <gavinandresen> E.g. what if I accidently use the wrong oracle address (maybe I use the "donate to support the Oracle" pubkeyhash instead of the "release funds if condition XYZ happens" address)
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1520 2014-01-14 20:25:50 <shesek> with the multisig project I'm working on (bitrated) the only case anyone has to deal with them is when they choose to provide public keys and sign locally, instead of letting the website generate keys for them and do the signing
1521 2014-01-14 20:25:52 <lechuga__> why couldnt the same mixup happen with the base58 encoded pubkey
1522 2014-01-14 20:26:14 <gavinandresen> lechuga__: it could, which is why we like the payment protocol better.
1523 2014-01-14 20:26:30 <gavinandresen> You get useful things like "You are paying FOO.com for THIS AND THIS AND THAT."
1524 2014-01-14 20:26:50 <sipa> lechuga__: here is another reason: if you want to send coins to someone using muktisig l, they NEED to know about it, or they can't spend them
1525 2014-01-14 20:27:03 <sipa> lechuga__: an address is what you give out when you want to receive coins
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1527 2014-01-14 20:27:05 <lechuga__> yeah the wallet software would accomodate it
1528 2014-01-14 20:27:14 <sipa> a public key is what you need to build that address
1529 2014-01-14 20:27:16 <lechuga__> but u need to put somethign into the wallet software to identify parties in the contract
1530 2014-01-14 20:27:42 <lechuga__> why not use the bitcoin address format as all wallets seem to use today
1531 2014-01-14 20:27:59 <Luke-Jr> lechuga__: addresses are being phased out
1532 2014-01-14 20:28:03 <Luke-Jr> at least the old 1⦠form
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1534 2014-01-14 20:28:18 <gavinandresen> Yes, the Oracle needs to publish a public key plus metadata about under what conditions it will sign transactions using that key, what URL to ping to ask that transactions get signed, etc etc etc (lots of hand-wavy infrastructure stuff that hasn't been spec'ed yed)
1535 2014-01-14 20:28:53 Grouver has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1536 2014-01-14 20:29:52 <lechuga__> the zero contingent payment stuff seems really cool
1537 2014-01-14 20:30:33 <lechuga__> im also trying to think of an interesting idea around an oracle + crowdsourcing expression evaluation from actual humans
1538 2014-01-14 20:30:52 <sipa> gavinandresen: saw my answer to your comment on that move-only commit in 3514?
1539 2014-01-14 20:31:05 <sipa> gavinandresen: seems github has forgotten it in the rebase
1540 2014-01-14 20:31:10 andyo has joined
1541 2014-01-14 20:31:10 <lechuga__> luke-r: whats the preferred format going forward?
1542 2014-01-14 20:31:12 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1543 2014-01-14 20:31:14 <lechuga__> luke-jr: ^
1544 2014-01-14 20:31:18 <gavinandresen> sipa: yes, saw it
1545 2014-01-14 20:31:35 <gavinandresen> sipa: I haven't yet had time to review the other commits in that pull request
1546 2014-01-14 20:32:03 c0rw1n has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1547 2014-01-14 20:32:08 <Luke-Jr> lechuga__: payment protocol
1548 2014-01-14 20:32:11 MobPhone has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1549 2014-01-14 20:32:26 <sipa> gavinandresen: take your time
1550 2014-01-14 20:32:29 <Luke-Jr> lechuga__: or at least P2SH addresses, preferably with multisig two or three factor auth
1551 2014-01-14 20:32:36 <lechuga__> ok looks liek that got moved to the top of the stack of things i need to read
1552 2014-01-14 20:32:41 MobPhone has joined
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1558 2014-01-14 20:40:29 shamoon has joined
1559 2014-01-14 20:40:40 <shamoon> is it possible to figure out the hash rate based on the difficulty of a block?
1560 2014-01-14 20:41:00 c0rw1n has joined
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1564 2014-01-14 20:42:37 <sipa> shamoon: approximately
1565 2014-01-14 20:42:45 <shamoon> how sp?
1566 2014-01-14 20:42:46 <shamoon> so
1567 2014-01-14 20:43:23 <sipa> 1 difficulty means 2**48/65535 hashes to construct a block
1568 2014-01-14 20:43:37 <sipa> blocks are created approximately every 600s in steady state
1569 2014-01-14 20:43:54 <sipa> ;;calc 2**48/65535/600/1000000
1570 2014-01-14 20:43:54 <gribble> 7.158388055
1571 2014-01-14 20:44:08 <sipa> 1 difficulty = 7.15 Mhash/s
1572 2014-01-14 20:44:25 spirals has joined
1573 2014-01-14 20:45:23 cysm has joined
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1575 2014-01-14 20:47:42 <shamoon> got it
1576 2014-01-14 20:47:43 <shamoon> thanks
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1579 2014-01-14 20:51:58 <danwalton> hi! I'm trying to build on osx. I keep getting this link error "Db::verify(char const*, char const*, std::ostream*, unsigned int)", referenced from:
1580 2014-01-14 20:51:58 <danwalton> CDBEnv::Verify(std::string, bool (*)(CDBEnv&, std::string)) in db.o
1581 2014-01-14 20:52:01 <danwalton> any ideas?
1582 2014-01-14 20:52:36 <lechuga__> sipa: does your day job let u work on bitcoin projects 24/7? :)
1583 2014-01-14 20:52:37 <sipa> you don't have libdb++
1584 2014-01-14 20:52:44 <sipa> lechuga__: i wish
1585 2014-01-14 20:52:50 <lechuga__> my day job keeps conflicting with my ability to work on mine
1586 2014-01-14 20:53:21 ZG has quit (caktux!~caktux@dsl-173-248-230-158.acanac.net|Quit: ZG|caktux)
1587 2014-01-14 20:53:25 <lechuga__> wish enterprise software dev was as inpsiring as magic internet money
1588 2014-01-14 20:55:48 shamoon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1589 2014-01-14 20:57:13 patcon_ is now known as patcon
1590 2014-01-14 20:58:02 patcon has joined
1591 2014-01-14 20:59:07 Grouver has joined
1592 2014-01-14 20:59:20 <danwalton> sips where are you located?
1593 2014-01-14 21:01:11 <danwalton> ive got this: -rw-r--r-- 1 root admin 2150296 Jan 14 09:59 /opt/local/lib/db48/libdb_cxx.a
1594 2014-01-14 21:01:15 <danwalton> and the linker is finding it
1595 2014-01-14 21:01:37 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1596 2014-01-14 21:01:37 ivan` has joined
1597 2014-01-14 21:03:03 <danwalton> ug
1598 2014-01-14 21:05:04 <defrostr> dansmith_btc, paste the full linker error
1599 2014-01-14 21:05:39 <defrostr> oops, wrong user
1600 2014-01-14 21:05:43 <defrostr> danwalton: ^^^
1601 2014-01-14 21:06:02 <lechuga__> is that symbol in that library?
1602 2014-01-14 21:06:14 <lechuga__> dunno what tool you use for that on osx
1603 2014-01-14 21:06:37 <danwalton> http://pastebin.com/jcjv01xQ
1604 2014-01-14 21:06:47 <danwalton> what do you use on your system?
1605 2014-01-14 21:07:07 <lechuga__> nm
1606 2014-01-14 21:07:29 <defrostr> your libdb++ libraries are not built for 64-bit
1607 2014-01-14 21:07:38 <lechuga__> ah
1608 2014-01-14 21:07:39 <lechuga__> yup
1609 2014-01-14 21:07:40 <lechuga__> :)
1610 2014-01-14 21:07:42 <defrostr> add -march=i686 or -m32 to your CFLAGS
1611 2014-01-14 21:07:50 <defrostr> and LDFLAGS when building so you build a 32-bit binary
1612 2014-01-14 21:08:00 <danwalton> ok
1613 2014-01-14 21:08:56 <danwalton> ill rebuild
1614 2014-01-14 21:08:57 SwampTony has joined
1615 2014-01-14 21:09:53 <danwalton> any tips on building db_4.8.3 ?
1616 2014-01-14 21:10:02 petertretyakov has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1617 2014-01-14 21:10:19 <defrostr> danwalton, you can disable replication when building it since it's not needed.
1618 2014-01-14 21:10:25 <danwalton> ok
1619 2014-01-14 21:10:30 <defrostr> if you're on a mac. you may as well just use the ports tree/fink
1620 2014-01-14 21:11:06 dredredre has joined
1621 2014-01-14 21:11:19 <defrostr> actually, its called 'brew' these days.
1622 2014-01-14 21:11:20 <danwalton> the problem is that i did use ports
1623 2014-01-14 21:11:21 <danwalton> and brew
1624 2014-01-14 21:11:36 <danwalton> but berkeley lib is complied with the wrong compiler
1625 2014-01-14 21:11:39 <danwalton> apple changed them
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1630 2014-01-14 21:16:29 <petertodd> lechuga__: FWIW all the stuff you're talking about with oracles can be done with standard P2SH-encoded CHECKMULTISIG transactions: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=260898.msg3040083#msg3040083
1631 2014-01-14 21:18:36 <lechuga__> reading
1632 2014-01-14 21:19:19 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1633 2014-01-14 21:20:52 <lechuga__> the first scriptpubkey is non-standard isnt it?
1634 2014-01-14 21:21:27 <petertodd> lechuga__: very non-standard, but the second is totally standard when wrapped in P2SH
1635 2014-01-14 21:21:54 <lechuga__> so the contract is a bit more compelx to get onto the blockchain but the claim should be trivial
1636 2014-01-14 21:22:31 <petertodd> lechuga__: ? the version using CHECKMULTISIG is easier on both counts
1637 2014-01-14 21:22:54 <lechuga__> i guess its not sinking in yet
1638 2014-01-14 21:23:11 <lechuga__> is the CHECKMULTISIG an equiv script as the if/else above?
1639 2014-01-14 21:23:38 <petertodd> lechuga__: yeah
1640 2014-01-14 21:24:05 <petertodd> lechuga__: even better actually, because it lets alice and bob mutually agree to spend the txout anyway without the oracle's assistance
1641 2014-01-14 21:24:26 <lechuga__> interesting
1642 2014-01-14 21:25:27 <lechuga__> so im confused
1643 2014-01-14 21:25:32 <lechuga__> where did C go in the multisig version
1644 2014-01-14 21:25:50 <petertodd> lechuga__: C?
1645 2014-01-14 21:25:57 <lechuga__> Now Alice and Bob jointly agree on a pubkey with a seckey that they both know, C
1646 2014-01-14 21:26:40 <petertodd> lechuga__: oh, it's not needed
1647 2014-01-14 21:27:02 <lechuga__> so the oracle hands out A and B?
1648 2014-01-14 21:27:15 <lechuga__> and then dependign on outcome either A' or B'?
1649 2014-01-14 21:27:39 <petertodd> hands out A *or* B
1650 2014-01-14 21:28:08 <petertodd> and actually, the if then else version could be done without C too, similar to the checkmultisig way of doing it
1651 2014-01-14 21:28:45 hmsimha has joined
1652 2014-01-14 21:28:55 <lechuga__> Oscar the oracle says if the Giants win, he will reveal seckey A' which corresponds to pubkey A, and if they lose, he'll reveal seckey B', which corresponds to pubkey B.
1653 2014-01-14 21:29:08 jav has joined
1654 2014-01-14 21:29:16 <petertodd> yup
1655 2014-01-14 21:29:42 <lechuga__> doesn that conflict with "hands out A *or* B"
1656 2014-01-14 21:29:42 ielo has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1657 2014-01-14 21:30:19 <lechuga__> A and B are just initially known arent they?
1658 2014-01-14 21:30:19 <petertodd> lechuga__: no, I mean, or used the way english speakers use the word, not programmers :)
1659 2014-01-14 21:30:33 <petertodd> oh right, sorry, yeah, I meant A' *or* B'
1660 2014-01-14 21:30:38 <lechuga__> ok cool :)
1661 2014-01-14 21:30:50 <lechuga__> i think i get it
1662 2014-01-14 21:30:57 <lechuga__> would need to impl to be sure
1663 2014-01-14 21:31:21 <lechuga__> much better than havng nonstandard script
1664 2014-01-14 21:31:30 <lechuga__> its really just bakign the nonce into keys
1665 2014-01-14 21:31:36 <petertodd> yup
1666 2014-01-14 21:31:44 <lechuga__> makes sense, smart :)
1667 2014-01-14 21:31:48 <lechuga__> did u impl it?
1668 2014-01-14 21:32:01 <petertodd> and it makes the transaction more private too, because it looks like other types of escrow/multisig stuff
1669 2014-01-14 21:32:19 <petertodd> lechuga__: I only program in the language 'English' :P
1670 2014-01-14 21:32:30 <lechuga__> but part of the orig oracle design is that the expression's identity is also bake dinto the transaction
1671 2014-01-14 21:32:40 c0rw1n_ has joined
1672 2014-01-14 21:32:42 <lechuga__> via the hash/nonce
1673 2014-01-14 21:33:06 <lechuga__> so the oracle can verify the expression
1674 2014-01-14 21:33:27 <lechuga__> i dont see how that can be done with this
1675 2014-01-14 21:33:38 <lechuga__> unless the oracle maintains state
1676 2014-01-14 21:34:00 <lechuga__> like A+B can be used to lookup the expression in a db or something
1677 2014-01-14 21:34:09 <lechuga__> no state required in orig design
1678 2014-01-14 21:34:12 <petertodd> lechuga__: right, but you can still do that! lets suppose we have expression X, which can return True or False. Just ask the oracle for a set of pubkeys Q_T and Q_F, derived from H(X) and some secret seed the oracle keeps.
1679 2014-01-14 21:34:14 <lechuga__> seems liek reasonable tradeoff tho
1680 2014-01-14 21:34:22 <devrandom> CoinBin seems down... anybody know of an alternate place where p2sh transactions can be published from JavaScript?
1681 2014-01-14 21:34:28 <lechuga__> oh ok
1682 2014-01-14 21:34:52 <warren> sipa: wumpus: if headers first isn't going into 0.9, wouldn't this be a good idea for now? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2910
1683 2014-01-14 21:35:01 <lechuga__> i got it ok
1684 2014-01-14 21:35:02 <petertodd> lechuga__: You can even do it with BIP32 without a communication round, but there's an advanced catch to that version that I'd want to check with a professional cryptographer. Do the simpler version instead. :)
1685 2014-01-14 21:35:06 c0rw1n has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1686 2014-01-14 21:36:35 <lechuga__> this is really cool
1687 2014-01-14 21:37:06 sassamo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1690 2014-01-14 21:38:41 <lechuga__> i implemented the orig oracle design (just the txn mechanics) in javascript yesterday just to get a good grip on how it worked
1691 2014-01-14 21:38:48 <lechuga__> i think im going to try this next :)
1692 2014-01-14 21:38:50 <lechuga__> thx
1693 2014-01-14 21:38:58 <petertodd> lechuga__: awesome! let us know how it goes
1694 2014-01-14 21:39:02 <lechuga__> k will do
1695 2014-01-14 21:39:27 <lechuga__> might need to bug u again before i complete it
1696 2014-01-14 21:39:51 <petertodd> np
1697 2014-01-14 21:41:28 profreid has quit (Quit: profreid)
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1699 2014-01-14 21:43:04 <warren> Confirmed, downgrading leveldb in master to match 0.8.6 allows the block index to remain compatible.
1700 2014-01-14 21:43:23 Starduster has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1701 2014-01-14 21:44:38 <sipa> crap
1702 2014-01-14 21:46:52 t3st3r has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1703 2014-01-14 21:48:02 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1704 2014-01-14 21:48:24 <gmaxwell> sweet
1705 2014-01-14 21:48:39 <gmaxwell> welp I knew this would happen eventually.
1706 2014-01-14 21:48:57 <gmaxwell> good that we caught it merely in git.
1707 2014-01-14 21:49:12 Anduck has joined
1708 2014-01-14 21:49:21 <gmaxwell> Bad that it's probably going to nail those poor unfortunate bitcoin users who have been patched to use 'system' libs.
1709 2014-01-14 21:49:23 <sipa> warren: what file extension do your block index / chainstate use for the sstable files?
1710 2014-01-14 21:49:33 <warren> sipa: 0.8?
1711 2014-01-14 21:49:43 <sipa> the database that you cannot use in 0.8
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1713 2014-01-14 21:49:51 <warren> sipa: I don't have one right now
1714 2014-01-14 21:50:32 <sipa> leveldb 1.14 has an entry in the changelog saying that it would switch to use .ldb instead of .sst
1715 2014-01-14 21:50:48 <sipa> though i haven't ever seen any file with .ldb as extension
1716 2014-01-14 21:51:17 <sipa> so maybe it's only for databases that have been created using the new leveldb, instead of only ones that are upgraded to it
1717 2014-01-14 21:53:08 <warren> did 1.13 in 0.8.6 have any known problems?
1718 2014-01-14 21:53:18 Anduck- has joined
1719 2014-01-14 21:53:54 <sipa> not afaik
1720 2014-01-14 21:54:13 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1721 2014-01-14 21:54:30 <warren> probably best to just revert it to known good? we have too many other things to fix for 0.9
1722 2014-01-14 21:54:39 <sipa> if it's just "new databases _created_ on 0.9 can't be opened by older version", it may be acceptable
1723 2014-01-14 21:54:56 <warren> I upgraded
1724 2014-01-14 21:55:11 <sipa> but just because of a file rename (which is what i expect, though i haven't tested it), that sounds silly
1725 2014-01-14 21:56:03 <sipa> and i really prefer to stay on leveldb 1.15, as it has a nice upstream fix for the mac osx corruption issue - perhaps not just for osx
1726 2014-01-14 21:56:23 <sipa> we had database corrupteds being reported by debian users too, at some point
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1734 2014-01-14 22:02:10 <sipa> warren: in src/leveldb/db/filename.cc, in TableFileName, if you replace "ldb" by "sst", can it then be opened by 0.8.x afterwards?
1735 2014-01-14 22:02:26 <warren> sipa: will test
1736 2014-01-14 22:02:45 <sipa> thanks!
1737 2014-01-14 22:06:13 <sipa> actually, wait
1738 2014-01-14 22:08:52 <sipa> in src/leveldb/db/builder.cc, replace the call to TableFileName to one to SSTTableFileName
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1753 2014-01-14 22:20:10 <warren> sipa: it's compatible with "<sipa> warren: in src/leveldb/db/filename.cc, in TableFileName, if you replace "ldb" by "sst", can it then be opened by 0.8.x afterwards?"
1754 2014-01-14 22:20:18 <warren> sipa: the latter would be equivalent
1755 2014-01-14 22:20:52 <sipa> the latter means it's also compatible with current head
1756 2014-01-14 22:21:17 <Apocalyptic> hum
1757 2014-01-14 22:21:24 <Apocalyptic> I just witness a weird behaviour
1758 2014-01-14 22:21:37 <Apocalyptic> blockchain showed an unconfirmed tx, seconds later it dropped
1759 2014-01-14 22:22:02 <sipa> you mean blockchain.info?
1760 2014-01-14 22:22:17 <warren> sipa: yep, both upgrade and new db seems ok
1761 2014-01-14 22:22:42 <Apocalyptic> sipa, indeed
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1763 2014-01-14 22:22:59 <Apocalyptic> my local bitcoin node didn't even acknowledge the unconfirmed tx
1764 2014-01-14 22:23:15 <Apocalyptic> it seems that it's a double spend attempt that succeeded
1765 2014-01-14 22:23:31 <Apocalyptic> https://blockchain.info/tx-index/107590054/0
1766 2014-01-14 22:25:56 <lechuga__> not an icnredibly lucrative one
1767 2014-01-14 22:25:57 <sipa> Apocalyptic: i couldn't care less about what b.i tells you :)
1768 2014-01-14 22:26:03 <lechuga__> haha
1769 2014-01-14 22:26:09 <Apocalyptic> indeed, but still
1770 2014-01-14 22:26:18 <Apocalyptic> the original target was a marchant
1771 2014-01-14 22:26:31 <Apocalyptic> I just happened to receive a further tx using the ouput as input
1772 2014-01-14 22:27:11 <Apocalyptic> sipa, I got that :)
1773 2014-01-14 22:27:30 <Apocalyptic> are these double spends common these days ? i thought them to be exceptionally scarce
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1775 2014-01-14 22:28:21 <sipa> double spends of unconfirmed transactions certainly are attempted
1776 2014-01-14 22:30:07 gst has joined
1777 2014-01-14 22:31:10 <Apocalyptic> this one seems to be sucessfull
1778 2014-01-14 22:31:27 ItSANgo has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
1779 2014-01-14 22:31:50 <sipa> that explains why it's attempted :D
1780 2014-01-14 22:31:58 c0rw1n has joined
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1782 2014-01-14 22:32:57 <warren> sipa: "<sipa> in src/leveldb/db/builder.cc, replace the call to TableFileName to one to SSTTableFileName" works
1783 2014-01-14 22:33:03 <warren> sipa: we going to diverge from upstream?
1784 2014-01-14 22:33:06 <sipa> great, thanks for testing!
1785 2014-01-14 22:33:12 <sipa> i'm commenting on the issue
1786 2014-01-14 22:38:34 <warren> sipa: could you please clarify in the watchonly ticket?
1787 2014-01-14 22:38:41 robonerd has quit (Quit: ...)
1788 2014-01-14 22:41:55 <sipa> doing
1789 2014-01-14 22:42:30 <gmaxwell> sipa: any idea why the heck upstream changed that?
1790 2014-01-14 22:43:15 <gmaxwell> we can't win, even if we patch it ourselves, we'll just be making ourself incompatible with copies of bitcoin which have stripped out our leveldb.
1791 2014-01-14 22:43:32 <berndj> what's the/a preferred too for editing those translation files i notice have gone into master? (plain old text editor?)
1792 2014-01-14 22:43:42 <gmaxwell> The best we can probably do is ship the next version creating the old style and accepting the new one. And then the version after that creating the new style and accepting the old.
1793 2014-01-14 22:43:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: we can win, if we merge pruning for 0.9 :p
1794 2014-01-14 22:44:01 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: how does that matter at all?
1795 2014-01-14 22:44:09 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: pruning is incompatible with 0.8 anyway
1796 2014-01-14 22:44:15 <gmaxwell> the only implication of pruning here is that it makes problem with the database far more seriously fatal.
1797 2014-01-14 22:44:43 <gmaxwell> point, if its on. Though I assume the first release with it will have it default to off.
1798 2014-01-14 22:44:56 Raziel has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1799 2014-01-14 22:45:16 <Luke-Jr> we could toggle SST/LDB based on that :P
1800 2014-01-14 22:45:35 <gmaxwell> die
1801 2014-01-14 22:45:39 elgrecoFL has quit (Excess Flood)
1802 2014-01-14 22:45:41 <Luke-Jr> :<
1803 2014-01-14 22:46:02 <Luke-Jr> we could change the directory name too, so both can live concurrently
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1806 2014-01-14 22:46:30 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1807 2014-01-14 22:46:56 <gmaxwell> because ... thats not at all missing the point.
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1809 2014-01-14 22:47:07 <sipa> berndj: transfix
1810 2014-01-14 22:47:12 <sipa> berndj: transifex
1811 2014-01-14 22:47:20 AriseChikun has joined
1812 2014-01-14 22:47:42 <sipa> gmaxwell: well, if we do that 1-line patch, we stay compatible with any 1.15+ leveldb version, even unpatches ones
1813 2014-01-14 22:47:42 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: my point is we have to break compatibility in this area anyway, might as well make it the same time
1814 2014-01-14 22:48:13 <Luke-Jr> we do? :o
1815 2014-01-14 22:49:11 <sipa> Luke-Jr: we do what?
1816 2014-01-14 22:49:26 <Luke-Jr> stay compatible with unpatched
1817 2014-01-14 22:49:27 Gnewt has quit (Quit: Changing server)
1818 2014-01-14 22:49:37 <Luke-Jr> is that 1 line in our code?
1819 2014-01-14 22:49:50 Namworld has joined
1820 2014-01-14 22:49:55 <sipa> no
1821 2014-01-14 22:50:09 <sipa> git head is now unpatched 1.15
1822 2014-01-14 22:50:22 <sipa> which writes to .ldb, and reads both .ldb and .sst
1823 2014-01-14 22:50:28 cads has joined
1824 2014-01-14 22:50:34 <sipa> 1.13 writes to .sst, and reads from .sst
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1826 2014-01-14 22:50:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: so an unpatched 1.15+ would still have the incompatibility
1827 2014-01-14 22:50:59 <sipa> we can patch 1.15 to write to .sst, and read from both .ldb and .sst (which is forward and backward compatible with everything)
1828 2014-01-14 22:51:05 sassamo has joined
1829 2014-01-14 22:51:18 <sipa> the only problem is unpatched 1.15 is backward-incompatible with 1.13 and below
1830 2014-01-14 22:51:25 <Luke-Jr> right
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1832 2014-01-14 22:51:51 <sipa> so that means that anyone using system leveldb is fine, except they can't downgrade their system leveldb
1833 2014-01-14 22:52:01 <Luke-Jr> I guess that's reasonable
1834 2014-01-14 22:52:11 <Luke-Jr> similar to the bdb issue
1835 2014-01-14 22:53:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: acceptable?
1836 2014-01-14 22:53:41 <gmaxwell> yea, ack: 14:40 < sipa> we can patch 1.15 to write to .sst, and read from both .ldb and .sst (which is forward and backward compatible with everything)
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1840 2014-01-14 22:56:42 dmanderson is now known as dmanderson_afk
1841 2014-01-14 22:56:50 <warren> why did they rename it?
1842 2014-01-14 22:57:00 yubrew has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1843 2014-01-14 22:57:07 <sipa> i have no clue
1844 2014-01-14 22:58:45 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1845 2014-01-14 22:59:21 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1849 2014-01-14 23:00:26 <Luke-Jr> "We are going to change the extension of LevelDB's immutable table files. The extension is currently .sst. It will soon be .ldb. This is to prevent Windows System Restore from treating the table files as system files[1] and backing them up independent of the manifest."
1850 2014-01-14 23:00:30 <Luke-Jr> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/leveldb/u9izbG-pDishttps://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/leveldb/u9izbG-pDis
1851 2014-01-14 23:00:35 <Luke-Jr> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/leveldb/u9izbG-pDis
1852 2014-01-14 23:00:39 * Luke-Jr kicks mouse
1853 2014-01-14 23:00:53 * lechuga__ calls PETA
1854 2014-01-14 23:01:10 * Luke-Jr hopes PETA has no authority.
1855 2014-01-14 23:01:15 <lechuga__> lol
1856 2014-01-14 23:01:38 <warren> comboy: pigeons metaless /var/log/X0
1857 2014-01-14 23:02:13 <gmaxwell> ...
1858 2014-01-14 23:02:19 * gmaxwell kicks windows.
1859 2014-01-14 23:02:38 <Luke-Jr> I know.. did NTFS lose the System attribute or something?
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1864 2014-01-14 23:03:59 <sipa> sounds like a reasonable (though regrettable that it's necessary) choice then
1865 2014-01-14 23:04:16 <sipa> we can afford to make it at a time when we're doing an incompatible upgrade ourselfves, though
1866 2014-01-14 23:05:07 <gmaxwell> yea, I don't think we've had any reports that I could trace to windows restoring the files. ... but at least the result right now would just be needing a reindex.
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1873 2014-01-14 23:14:35 <sipa> see bitcoin/leveldb#3
1874 2014-01-14 23:15:41 <phillipsjk> Windows treating extensions as special, than hiding them by default == bad things /rant
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1883 2014-01-14 23:23:27 <deanclkclk> could someone plz explain what this stack is saying? http://pastie.org/8633963
1884 2014-01-14 23:25:04 <sipa> the first line reports that a "getblockhash 168018" RPC was received (which doesn't exist, you need to pass the argument 168018 to the RPC, not send it as part of its name)
1885 2014-01-14 23:25:28 <sipa> the second and third are about a getblocks P2P message being received from a peer
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1890 2014-01-14 23:27:30 <deanclkclk> sorry for pinging here sipa I will try again but, was getting problems when I sent it as a parameter index
1891 2014-01-14 23:28:18 <sipa> i'm not going to explain JSON-RPC to you here
1892 2014-01-14 23:33:11 <deanclkclk> ok
1893 2014-01-14 23:33:25 <deanclkclk> sipa: this is the error I get from the eclipse console. http://pastie.org/8634019
1894 2014-01-14 23:33:37 Nesetalis has joined
1895 2014-01-14 23:33:50 <deanclkclk> and the debug.log doesn't show the request
1896 2014-01-14 23:34:46 robonerd has joined
1897 2014-01-14 23:35:12 <sipa> deanclkclk: we don't use named arguments
1898 2014-01-14 23:35:42 <deanclkclk> who is we...bitcoin?
1899 2014-01-14 23:35:45 <sipa> yes
1900 2014-01-14 23:36:17 <upb> the problem could aos be in 001, try 00000001
1901 2014-01-14 23:36:31 <sipa> that's the same in java
1902 2014-01-14 23:36:40 <sipa> it's just the number 1
1903 2014-01-14 23:36:50 <sipa> and you should send the json-rpc argument as unnamed ones
1904 2014-01-14 23:36:58 <deanclkclk> ok
1905 2014-01-14 23:37:07 <deanclkclk> but, I don't get the 001 aos thing
1906 2014-01-14 23:37:26 <sipa> forget it, it's not relevant
1907 2014-01-14 23:37:41 <upb> also*
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1913 2014-01-14 23:46:37 <deanclkclk> thx sipa the none named parameter works
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