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  10 2014-01-15 00:14:24 <Sleepnbum> do amds new chips have any implications on btc?  http://venturebeat.com/2014/01/14/amd-launches-kaveri-processors-aimed-at-starting-a-computing-revolution/
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  29 2014-01-15 00:31:34 <zone117x> if I submit a block to the network, whats the best way to detect if it has been accepted or orphaned?
  30 2014-01-15 00:31:39 AriseChikun has joined
  31 2014-01-15 00:31:43 <zone117x> and how long should I wait to check?
  32 2014-01-15 00:33:25 <sipa> zone117x: you know the moment a successor to it is mined
  33 2014-01-15 00:33:34 <sipa> and there is no such thing as 'accepted'
  34 2014-01-15 00:33:45 <sipa> every node decides that individually
  35 2014-01-15 00:33:50 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yeah but
  36 2014-01-15 00:34:02 <Diablo-D3> its basically if it has 6 confirms its accepted by most people
  37 2014-01-15 00:34:17 <Diablo-D3> I think what zone is asking is essentially "how do I check the chain for a tx"
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  39 2014-01-15 00:38:22 <Apocalyptic> he mentionned "block" not tx though
  40 2014-01-15 00:38:28 <sipa> same thing
  41 2014-01-15 00:38:39 <sipa> confirmations for blocks and transactions align
  42 2014-01-15 00:38:46 <Apocalyptic> confirmations do indeed
  43 2014-01-15 00:38:56 <Diablo-D3> Apocalyptic: confirms of a tx is just the number of blocks that have come after the block the tx is in
  44 2014-01-15 00:39:05 <Apocalyptic> Diablo-D3, thanks I know that
  45 2014-01-15 00:39:12 <Apocalyptic> pretty basic knowledge
  46 2014-01-15 00:40:33 <Diablo-D3> I dunno, Ive met quite a few noobs in #bitcoin*
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  56 2014-01-15 00:44:18 <zone117x> I'm close to finishing a stratum server in node.js and sometimes I feel like a noob :(
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  58 2014-01-15 00:45:03 <zone117x> if I'm about to send out btc payments to miners, what process should I go through to be confident that a submitted block has not been orphaned?
  59 2014-01-15 00:45:27 <sipa> you can't
  60 2014-01-15 00:45:32 <zone117x> do I use getblock or listsinceblock on some timer to check for block confirmations > 6 ?
  61 2014-01-15 00:45:37 <sipa> you cannot know locally
  62 2014-01-15 00:45:53 <sipa> nodes do not necessarily agree about which chain they consider valid
  63 2014-01-15 00:46:03 <sipa> over time, they converge
  64 2014-01-15 00:46:25 <sipa> if you have a few blocks on top, the chances for it being reorganized away become very quickly smaller
  65 2014-01-15 00:46:27 <zone117x> right, but poolservers have a reasonable amount of confidence about their block being accepted when they send payments
  66 2014-01-15 00:46:46 <sipa> yes, they don't send payments immediately either
  67 2014-01-15 00:47:19 <sipa> (it takes 100 blocks before you can even spend the coins generated by a block)
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  69 2014-01-15 00:50:32 <zone117x> so should I setup polling to check for some threshold of confirmations for a block I submitted?
  70 2014-01-15 00:50:44 <zone117x> then once threshold is reached, relatively safe to send out payments?
  71 2014-01-15 00:50:53 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
  72 2014-01-15 00:51:01 <sipa> don't send out payments; credit accounts
  73 2014-01-15 00:51:06 <zone117x> or is there something better than polling. idk, maybe blocknotify?
  74 2014-01-15 00:51:19 <sipa> yes, you could recompute on blocknotify
  75 2014-01-15 00:51:30 <sipa> i'm sure people have implemented all this many times over already
  76 2014-01-15 00:52:05 <zone117x> there are examples in php mpos for stratum-mining. they setup a cron job and check for some threshold of confirmations. I just want to know the best way to do it
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  81 2014-01-15 00:59:07 <jspilman> petertodd: ping
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  83 2014-01-15 00:59:18 <petertodd> jspilman: hi
  84 2014-01-15 00:59:51 <jspilman> ack on your latest comments on forming the multisig, and p2sh
  85 2014-01-15 01:00:19 <petertodd> jspilman: cool
  86 2014-01-15 01:00:25 <petertodd> jspilman: that reddit story really blew up...
  87 2014-01-15 01:00:51 <jspilman> yeah, this serves a very useful purpose
  88 2014-01-15 01:01:03 <zone117x> reddit link?
  89 2014-01-15 01:01:27 <zone117x> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=31813471 ?
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  91 2014-01-15 01:01:57 <jspilman> may not be perfect in many ways, but highly pragmatic. solves a longstanding problem
  92 2014-01-15 01:02:15 <petertodd> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1v7ayg/revolution_in_bitcoin_privacy_stealth_addresses/
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  94 2014-01-15 01:02:36 <jspilman> I'm wondering about a canonical form which would tie to a address with a standard prefix (eg. xSTL).  could be 2-of-2 multisig P2SH, but I think could also be just standard pay-to-pubkey Q'?
  95 2014-01-15 01:02:58 sassamo has joined
  96 2014-01-15 01:03:08 <petertodd> jspilman: sorry, explain again?
  97 2014-01-15 01:03:11 cads has joined
  98 2014-01-15 01:03:32 <jspilman> from my last email "This is assuming we want to put q2New somewhere into the transaction, which, is it even required?"
  99 2014-01-15 01:03:57 <justanotheruser> petertodd: what are the disadvantages of these stealth addresses?
 100 2014-01-15 01:03:59 <jspilman> why not just: stealthTx.Vout.Add(TxOut.PayToPubKeyHash(Util.Amount(".995"), q1New)
 101 2014-01-15 01:04:04 <jspilman> stealthTx.Vout.Add(TxOut.OpReturn(P));
 102 2014-01-15 01:04:59 <jspilman> Q2 has to be in the address, of course, but not required for it to be in the resulting transaction
 103 2014-01-15 01:05:45 <petertodd> jspilman: ah right, well, I think the right scheme is for the stealth address to specify one or more pubkeys, one of the pubkeys can be the ECDH pubkey, and one or more go into either  CHECKSIG or CHECKMULTISIG as appropriate
 104 2014-01-15 01:06:11 <petertodd> jspilman: I think it's ok to allow the user to specify to reuse the ECDH pubkey for the payment one, but it may be worth it to just force those to be separate
 105 2014-01-15 01:07:16 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 106 2014-01-15 01:07:34 Denim-jdev has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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 108 2014-01-15 01:08:00 <jspilman> address has two keys, I do not want to reuse the ECDH pubkey for the payment one, since it has to be kept hot
 109 2014-01-15 01:08:57 <petertodd> jspilman: right, but do we allow the user to use it as a second-factor in a CHECKMULTISIG? that'd often be totally reasonable
 110 2014-01-15 01:09:03 <jspilman> but the tx that you generate when paying to the address. that tx need only contain a single derived stealth pubkey from Q1, and P in OP_RETURN. I agree the payment TX *can* have two derived/stealth pubKeys, but *must* it?
 111 2014-01-15 01:09:17 <petertodd> oh, definitely not
 112 2014-01-15 01:09:29 <petertodd> hence why I suggest "let the users's wallet app decide"
 113 2014-01-15 01:09:30 <jspilman> k, on the same page.
 114 2014-01-15 01:09:56 <petertodd> I've got nothing against letting them choose to just re-use a hot pubkey - in some setups that'll be fine, and frankly, matches how most wallets end up working
 115 2014-01-15 01:10:00 <jspilman> so now I'm just thinking, we "just" need to standardize some address formats which indicate how to build the tx
 116 2014-01-15 01:10:05 brson has joined
 117 2014-01-15 01:11:42 <petertodd> well, funny thing is this almost argues for just making the address be a base58-converted protocol buffers bit of junk, though I sure feel ugly suggesting that
 118 2014-01-15 01:11:57 <petertodd> it's easy to imagine future backwards compatible upgrades
 119 2014-01-15 01:12:03 danwalton has quit (Quit: danwalton)
 120 2014-01-15 01:12:07 <jspilman> we may have a address byte (or bytes) which instruct wallet to pay to a P2SH multisig, we may also have a prefix which instructs wallet to create a more typical pay-to-pubKey
 121 2014-01-15 01:12:52 <jspilman> either way, the addresss could itself be carrying one or two pubKeys for hot or not monitoring
 122 2014-01-15 01:12:54 <petertodd> yeah, that's a good thing to have
 123 2014-01-15 01:13:02 SwampTony has joined
 124 2014-01-15 01:13:09 <petertodd> yup
 125 2014-01-15 01:13:16 <petertodd> and don't forget the prefix too
 126 2014-01-15 01:13:45 Denim-jdev has joined
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 128 2014-01-15 01:15:07 <jspilman> we could pick different 4-byte prefixes which all end up looking like xSTL but cause different tx's underneath, or maybe you want that detail visible to the payer
 129 2014-01-15 01:16:32 <petertodd> well, I'm not so sure the "xSTL" thing is all that important, I'd just prefix it as s<random base 58> myself
 130 2014-01-15 01:16:37 <jspilman> 'visible' is debatable, since the address is in a URI and will populate an address book entry with the name of the payee so 'xSTL' ideally is never even seen.
 131 2014-01-15 01:16:58 <petertodd> yeah, that there is a base58 address encoding for it isn't too important
 132 2014-01-15 01:17:32 <petertodd> mainly I think the idea *of* addresses actually makes a surprising amount of sense given all the contexts where you re-use the notion of specifying an address
 133 2014-01-15 01:17:54 OneFixt_ has joined
 134 2014-01-15 01:17:59 <jspilman> this is example of when an address is actually an address :-)
 135 2014-01-15 01:18:02 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 136 2014-01-15 01:18:16 <petertodd> yup
 137 2014-01-15 01:18:41 dredredre has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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 140 2014-01-15 01:18:56 <petertodd> and we'll set a precident for how we encode all the !@#$% options for when soemone inevitably does a BIP32 chain-code scheme
 141 2014-01-15 01:21:13 <petertodd> so I dunno, maybe it just needs to be <version> <# of pubkeys to spend> <# of pubkeys total> {<pubkey>...<pubkey>} <ECDH-pubkey> <prefix length in bits> <prefix> (potential extra stuff for bakwards-compatible upgrades)
 142 2014-01-15 01:21:18 tesserajk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 143 2014-01-15 01:21:34 <petertodd> it's either that, or you end up with something that looks like protocol buffers and has tagged fields
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 147 2014-01-15 01:23:12 <jspilman> is <prefix> often implicitly taken from the first <pubkey>?
 148 2014-01-15 01:23:25 <petertodd> definitely not
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 150 2014-01-15 01:23:55 <petertodd> prefix is just something the recipient chooses at random
 151 2014-01-15 01:24:03 <petertodd> doesn't have to have anything to do with the pubkeys themselves
 152 2014-01-15 01:24:14 tesserajk has joined
 153 2014-01-15 01:24:49 wyager has joined
 154 2014-01-15 01:25:42 <jspilman> k
 155 2014-01-15 01:26:22 <wyager> Quick question about stealth address proposition: Doesn't it require scanning the *entire* blockchain to find transactions intended for you?
 156 2014-01-15 01:26:49 <jspilman> I think I have enough to start making it work in Bitcoin-QT so I can show off the entire use-case / UI flow in a youtube vid and get people really fired up
 157 2014-01-15 01:26:54 <petertodd> wyager: only if you choose that large of an anonymity set
 158 2014-01-15 01:26:55 <wyager> I.e. don't you have to test every single "stealth" send to check if you have the mathcing privkey?
 159 2014-01-15 01:27:06 <wyager> petertodd: What do you mean by anonymity set?
 160 2014-01-15 01:27:11 <petertodd> wyager: read the part about "prefixes" in my paper on it :)
 161 2014-01-15 01:27:28 <wyager> You got a link to the paper? I just read the mailing list
 162 2014-01-15 01:27:47 <petertodd> wyager: the first post in that thread is what I consider my paper :)
 163 2014-01-15 01:28:42 <petertodd> jspilman: nice!
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 165 2014-01-15 01:28:54 <petertodd> jspilman: what language are you writing this in?
 166 2014-01-15 01:29:02 <jspilman> speaking of anonymity set, I'm not sure wrapping the multisig in P2SH helps increase it since the OP_RETURN is still there. still worth doing tho
 167 2014-01-15 01:29:30 <jspilman> so far, C#
 168 2014-01-15 01:29:46 <petertodd> jspilman: right, but remember that just tells you the transaction probably has a stealth txout, the tx may be coinjoin, there may be change involved, lots of stuff
 169 2014-01-15 01:30:32 <petertodd> jspilman: C# won't win you any friends, *but* it rpobably is valuable to force a re-implementation of the protocol soon to find the badly specified parts
 170 2014-01-15 01:30:48 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 171 2014-01-15 01:31:32 <jspilman> I'll write the C to make it work in bitcoind / Bitcoin-QT
 172 2014-01-15 01:31:52 <petertodd> jspilman: you mean C++?
 173 2014-01-15 01:33:13 Lbit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 174 2014-01-15 01:33:20 <jspilman> heh
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 177 2014-01-15 01:33:47 <wyager> petertodd: Don't the prefixes pretty much completely eliminate the purpose? OK, so if I use a 16 bit filter, now it could be me and maybe 2 or 3 other people recieving the funds...
 178 2014-01-15 01:34:21 <wyager> I guess it allows for a decent middle ground
 179 2014-01-15 01:36:12 <petertodd> wyager: exatly, prefixes allow you to choose your anonymity set - if you hide in 1/256 * all transactions and receive one payment a month, that's probably just fine
 180 2014-01-15 01:36:23 wangchun has joined
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 182 2014-01-15 01:37:46 <gmaxwell> well in particular you could always use a 16 bit token, and only the sender and reciever (maybe even only the reciever) know the real prefix length.
 183 2014-01-15 01:37:49 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 184 2014-01-15 01:38:29 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, I mentioned that possible info leak on the mailing list
 185 2014-01-15 01:38:35 <wyager> True. I feel like statistical analysis might show some weird distribution though
 186 2014-01-15 01:39:10 <petertodd> wyager: a 16 bit filter is pretty specific - use a shorter filter if it worries you, at cost of bandwidth
 187 2014-01-15 01:39:25 <petertodd> wyager: point is the tradeoff is up to you, and a nice easy to control knob
 188 2014-01-15 01:39:54 <wyager> What is the outlook for adding SPV support for these transactions?
 189 2014-01-15 01:40:27 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
 190 2014-01-15 01:40:59 <wangchun> new blocks pop up like crazy
 191 2014-01-15 01:41:44 <petertodd> wyager: very good, prefix filters are going to end up getting implemented - electrum is going that direction
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 202 2014-01-15 01:51:26 <EasyAt> Is there a more substantial list of neat/clever scripts than those on the wiki?
 203 2014-01-15 01:51:27 sassamo has joined
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 205 2014-01-15 01:52:34 <petertodd> EasyAt: no, the scripting language is to neutured for any to exist
 206 2014-01-15 01:52:49 <EasyAt> :(
 207 2014-01-15 01:53:02 <petertodd> EasyAt: if you can think of any, please let us know!
 208 2014-01-15 01:53:30 <EasyAt> petertodd: I have been running in circles all day thinking of ideas and then proving them impossible
 209 2014-01-15 01:53:57 <EasyAt> Shifts would be nice heh
 210 2014-01-15 01:54:07 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 211 2014-01-15 01:54:16 <petertodd> EasyAt: yup, practically everything even remotely useful got disabled
 212 2014-01-15 01:55:12 jddebug- has joined
 213 2014-01-15 01:55:31 <Apocalyptic> petertodd, why ?
 214 2014-01-15 01:55:56 <sipa> ask satoshi
 215 2014-01-15 01:56:21 <EasyAt> All I can really thing of is a bounty for hash cracking
 216 2014-01-15 01:57:39 jddebug- has quit (Client Quit)
 217 2014-01-15 01:59:31 <petertodd> Apocalyptic: there were some early vulnerabilities and people got scared
 218 2014-01-15 01:59:49 <petertodd> EasyAt: good job - I did exactly that a few months ago
 219 2014-01-15 02:00:20 <EasyAt> petertodd: The bounty idea?
 220 2014-01-15 02:00:27 <petertodd> EasyAt: yeah
 221 2014-01-15 02:00:39 <petertodd> EasyAt: good on you to reinvent it
 222 2014-01-15 02:01:48 andytoshi has joined
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 224 2014-01-15 02:02:36 <EasyAt> woot
 225 2014-01-15 02:03:02 <petertodd> EasyAt: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293382.0
 226 2014-01-15 02:03:32 <petertodd> EasyAt: heck, if you have the time, write up how that works on the wiki
 227 2014-01-15 02:03:42 <sipa> EasyAt: oh, you came up with that independently?
 228 2014-01-15 02:03:49 <EasyAt> Yes
 229 2014-01-15 02:03:53 <sipa> cool
 230 2014-01-15 02:04:18 <EasyAt> I started digigng into the op codes last night and throwing ideas around with my roomate
 231 2014-01-15 02:04:29 <sipa> sometimes it's easy to forget how some things are not just "known" to everyone
 232 2014-01-15 02:04:55 <EasyAt> sipa: What do you mean?
 233 2014-01-15 02:05:00 <petertodd> sipa: so as we were saying and MAST and MMR TXO commitments :P
 234 2014-01-15 02:05:02 <petertodd> EasyAt: ^
 235 2014-01-15 02:05:49 <sipa> EasyAt: i saw you talking about collision verifying scripts, and i thought "yeah, those are also the only non trivial ones i know of"
 236 2014-01-15 02:05:51 <petertodd> EasyAt: bitcoin can be a remarkably obscure field with regard to the fine details :)
 237 2014-01-15 02:06:05 <sipa> forgetting that for you, this wasn't prior knowledge already
 238 2014-01-15 02:06:23 <petertodd> EasyAt: a lot of people don't even realize how limited scripts are and just hear "programming!"
 239 2014-01-15 02:06:34 <EasyAt> Ah, petertodd the rabbit hole keeps going
 240 2014-01-15 02:06:59 <petertodd> EasyAt: heh, just wait till you get to almost existential arguments about "proof-of-publication"
 241 2014-01-15 02:07:10 <EasyAt> been there done that
 242 2014-01-15 02:07:26 <EasyAt> :)
 243 2014-01-15 02:08:20 <EasyAt> Unless you mean something other than essentially sticking the hash of a documen tin the blockchain?
 244 2014-01-15 02:08:49 <petertodd> EasyAt: see, you timestamped the document, but you didn't prove anything about the document itself
 245 2014-01-15 02:09:16 <petertodd> EasyAt: where as proof-of-publication would be to put the whole document in the blockchain, proving the data got published to all bitcoin miners
 246 2014-01-15 02:10:19 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
 247 2014-01-15 02:10:22 sebicas has joined
 248 2014-01-15 02:10:33 <EasyAt> Hm
 249 2014-01-15 02:10:56 <petertodd> Now, can you think of what this proof-of-publication concept has to do with the double-spend problem?
 250 2014-01-15 02:11:18 BlueMatt has joined
 251 2014-01-15 02:11:20 <EasyAt> don't tell me! :)
 252 2014-01-15 02:11:49 <petertodd> :)
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 265 2014-01-15 02:20:08 <shamoon> what does the "Bits" field of a block mean?
 266 2014-01-15 02:20:23 wangchun has quit (Quit: wangchun)
 267 2014-01-15 02:20:50 <lechuga__> Current target in compact format
 268 2014-01-15 02:20:57 <lechuga__> see: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
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 274 2014-01-15 02:26:30 <EasyAt> petertodd: mmmmmm
 275 2014-01-15 02:26:35 <EasyAt> I think I'm close
 276 2014-01-15 02:27:35 <lechuga__> double-spend txn attempts miners work on wont have a proof-of-publication?
 277 2014-01-15 02:27:49 <shamoon> thanks lechuga__
 278 2014-01-15 02:27:53 <lechuga__> np
 279 2014-01-15 02:28:03 jddebug- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 280 2014-01-15 02:29:41 <EasyAt> NO, I'm not
 281 2014-01-15 02:30:20 <EasyAt> Do proof of publicatoin schemes introduce double spending issues
 282 2014-01-15 02:31:19 <Apocalyptic> EasyAt, they fix them
 283 2014-01-15 02:31:28 yubrew has joined
 284 2014-01-15 02:31:32 <shamoon> are merkle roots unique per block?
 285 2014-01-15 02:31:41 <EasyAt> How can you with 0 confs?
 286 2014-01-15 02:31:45 sebicas has joined
 287 2014-01-15 02:32:17 <jaakkos> shamoon: only a single merkle root in block
 288 2014-01-15 02:32:30 <shamoon> and is that merkle root unique across the entire blockchain?
 289 2014-01-15 02:32:40 <lechuga__> the odds of a merkle root colliding with another block are very small
 290 2014-01-15 02:32:42 guysoft42 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 291 2014-01-15 02:32:45 <lechuga__> very very
 292 2014-01-15 02:32:51 <EasyAt> shamoon: Since the blockheight is in the header then I imagine so
 293 2014-01-15 02:33:02 <EasyAt> oh, wait. I misread your question
 294 2014-01-15 02:33:33 <jaakkos> shamoon: the merkle tree provides a way to access the blockchain in trustless manner without having the entire blockchain downloaded (only block headers), as in SPV clients
 295 2014-01-15 02:33:35 jddebug has joined
 296 2014-01-15 02:33:39 <shamoon> nice
 297 2014-01-15 02:34:36 <shamoon> 50 / 2^(blockheight % 210000)
 298 2014-01-15 02:34:40 <shamoon> will give me the reward of that block
 299 2014-01-15 02:34:42 <EasyAt> shamoon: Yes, they would be different now that I think about it.  The coinbase TX must cointain the block height
 300 2014-01-15 02:34:43 <shamoon> correct?
 301 2014-01-15 02:35:01 <EasyAt> BIP 34
 302 2014-01-15 02:35:02 roconnor has joined
 303 2014-01-15 02:35:56 <EasyAt> The merkle root in each block would be different as the coinbase TX inside of it will have the blockheight
 304 2014-01-15 02:36:10 <shamoon> thanks EasyAt
 305 2014-01-15 02:36:26 lifeofcray has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 306 2014-01-15 02:36:36 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 307 2014-01-15 02:36:55 lifeofcray has joined
 308 2014-01-15 02:37:17 <EasyAt> But, before BIP 34 was implemented I think it would have been possible.  If you had 2 blocks and each had an identical coinbase
 309 2014-01-15 02:37:32 <EasyAt> and output address and script, etc...
 310 2014-01-15 02:37:38 jddebug has quit (Changing host)
 311 2014-01-15 02:37:38 jddebug has joined
 312 2014-01-15 02:37:50 <lechuga__> i think a collision is still possible through extreme bad luck
 313 2014-01-15 02:37:52 <EasyAt> But contained no other TXs except the coin gneration one
 314 2014-01-15 02:38:05 <sipa> EasyAt: bip30 made that illegal
 315 2014-01-15 02:38:16 <EasyAt> Ah
 316 2014-01-15 02:38:29 <phantomcircuit> a crime against bitcoin
 317 2014-01-15 02:38:44 <EasyAt> sipa: So, it would have been possible before bip 30, no?
 318 2014-01-15 02:38:53 <phantomcircuit> yes and it did happen
 319 2014-01-15 02:39:05 <phantomcircuit> so by rule that tx isn't spendable
 320 2014-01-15 02:39:07 <sipa> it happened twice
 321 2014-01-15 02:39:18 <phantomcircuit> yeah that's right i forgot it happened twice
 322 2014-01-15 02:39:25 <phantomcircuit> dat edge case
 323 2014-01-15 02:39:47 <sipa> blocks 91842 and 91880
 324 2014-01-15 02:39:48 <EasyAt> hehe
 325 2014-01-15 02:39:48 <phantomcircuit> was useful in verifying the sanity of my sql db relationship constraints
 326 2014-01-15 02:39:59 <sipa> it was a loooong time ago
 327 2014-01-15 02:40:29 <Happzz> ;;ticker --market mtgox
 328 2014-01-15 02:40:30 <Happzz> ;;ticker --market bitstamp
 329 2014-01-15 02:40:30 <gribble> MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 917.83274, Best ask: 922.99499, Bid-ask spread: 5.16225, Last trade: 922.99499, 24 hour volume: 3548.50451790, 24 hour low: 905.0, 24 hour high: 943.0, 24 hour vwap: 923.56112
 330 2014-01-15 02:40:31 <gribble> Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 817.03, Best ask: 818.0, Bid-ask spread: 0.97000, Last trade: 819.99, 24 hour volume: 9457.85243412, 24 hour low: 800.0, 24 hour high: 837.0, 24 hour vwap: 820.864485173
 331 2014-01-15 02:41:32 wallet42 has joined
 332 2014-01-15 02:42:22 <shamoon> block.blockreward = 100 / 2^(parseInt(blockHeight / 210000))
 333 2014-01-15 02:42:46 crescendo has joined
 334 2014-01-15 02:42:58 <sipa> 100?
 335 2014-01-15 02:43:00 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 336 2014-01-15 02:43:48 Starduster has joined
 337 2014-01-15 02:44:20 <EasyAt> phantomcircuit: heh
 338 2014-01-15 02:45:14 <phantomcircuit> ;;ticker --market intersango
 339 2014-01-15 02:45:14 <gribble> Error: This is not one of the supported markets. Please choose one of ['btcde', 'mtgox', 'bfx', 'btcn', 'coinbase', 'cbx', 'btsp', 'btce', 'btcavg'] or 'all'
 340 2014-01-15 02:45:19 <phantomcircuit> :(
 341 2014-01-15 02:45:23 _-_-__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 342 2014-01-15 02:45:24 <phantomcircuit> ;;ticker --market btcavg
 343 2014-01-15 02:45:25 <gribble> BitcoinAverage BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 835.57, Best ask: 837.46, Bid-ask spread: 1.89000, Last trade: 835.53, 24 hour volume: 23797.43, 24 hour low: None, 24 hour high: None, 24 hour vwap: 840.58
 344 2014-01-15 02:45:29 <EasyAt> petertodd: hint?
 345 2014-01-15 02:46:21 _-_-_ has joined
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 349 2014-01-15 02:48:43 MobPhone has joined
 350 2014-01-15 02:51:20 <kanzure> is there a client-side js library for calculating an address from a stealth address?
 351 2014-01-15 02:53:25 <petertodd> EasyAt: what do you need to do to be sure a double-spend doesn't exist?
 352 2014-01-15 02:54:29 <EasyAt> Be connected to every node on the network?
 353 2014-01-15 02:54:42 <petertodd> EasyAt: nope
 354 2014-01-15 02:54:48 <petertodd> EasyAt: I'm talking about in the blockchain
 355 2014-01-15 02:55:00 <petertodd> EasyAt: none of this pansy zero-conf crap
 356 2014-01-15 02:55:18 <EasyAt> hehe
 357 2014-01-15 02:55:36 <lechuga__> make sure an output doesnt appear as an input for any other txn
 358 2014-01-15 02:55:52 <lechuga__> ?
 359 2014-01-15 02:55:57 <petertodd> lechuga__: good
 360 2014-01-15 02:56:20 <petertodd> so if you want to pay me, what do you need to prove to me?
 361 2014-01-15 02:56:57 hsmiths has quit (Quit: bit)
 362 2014-01-15 02:56:58 Neozonz has joined
 363 2014-01-15 02:57:10 <lechuga__> why do i have to prove it, u dont trust me :)
 364 2014-01-15 02:57:24 <sipa> you have to prove exactly because he doesn't trust you
 365 2014-01-15 02:57:27 <phantomcircuit> that's why it's called proof
 366 2014-01-15 02:57:34 <sipa> if he trusted you, he could just take your word for it
 367 2014-01-15 02:57:52 <lechuga__> but shouldnt he verify my output doesnt exist as an input on the published chain?
 368 2014-01-15 02:57:55 <lechuga__> current best chain
 369 2014-01-15 02:58:03 <EasyAt> I have to prove these outputs haven't been spent.  If they aren't in the UTXO set then you know they are spent or not mine
 370 2014-01-15 02:58:09 <petertodd> lechuga__: ah, but then what did you prove to me?
 371 2014-01-15 02:58:34 <lechuga__> we're both on the same chain?
 372 2014-01-15 02:58:51 tesserajk has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 373 2014-01-15 02:58:56 tesserajk_ has joined
 374 2014-01-15 02:59:12 <lechuga__> hmm
 375 2014-01-15 02:59:39 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 376 2014-01-15 02:59:44 terrasapien has joined
 377 2014-01-15 03:00:01 <petertodd> lechuga__: assume we're "on" the same chain
 378 2014-01-15 03:00:09 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 379 2014-01-15 03:00:33 <lechuga__> i feel liek i only proved to you that this is a single-spend...for now
 380 2014-01-15 03:00:44 <lechuga__> if soem fork gets promoted all bets are off
 381 2014-01-15 03:01:03 wyager has quit (Quit: wyager)
 382 2014-01-15 03:01:04 <petertodd> lechuga__: assume for the sake of argument that the bitcoin blockchain works exactly as it's intended too
 383 2014-01-15 03:01:06 hsmiths has joined
 384 2014-01-15 03:01:24 c0rw1n has joined
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 386 2014-01-15 03:01:48 <lechuga__> im confused then i thought we you guys were talkign about a way to address the current double-spend potential related to an attack w/ a forked chain
 387 2014-01-15 03:02:03 <petertodd> lechuga__: no, I mean what does your confirmed transaction prove to me
 388 2014-01-15 03:02:06 jddebug has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
 389 2014-01-15 03:02:52 moses has joined
 390 2014-01-15 03:03:17 <lechuga__> so what im spending has >0 confs?
 391 2014-01-15 03:03:23 <lechuga__> guess it must
 392 2014-01-15 03:03:28 <petertodd> yup
 393 2014-01-15 03:03:37 <petertodd> as I say, we don't trust no pansy zero-conf crap 'round here
 394 2014-01-15 03:04:01 <lechuga__> can i ask for a quick backtrac, whats the problem u are addressing?
 395 2014-01-15 03:04:02 <sipa> lechuga__: what conditions did your transaction have to satisfy for getting confirmed?
 396 2014-01-15 03:04:37 <lechuga__> it was in the utxo set..
 397 2014-01-15 03:04:41 <sipa> lechuga__: the question is what bitcoin's preventing of double spending have to do with proof-of-publication
 398 2014-01-15 03:04:42 hoffmabc has joined
 399 2014-01-15 03:04:43 <petertodd> lechuga__: EasyAt's question about what the heck proof-of-publication has to do with it
 400 2014-01-15 03:05:04 <lechuga__> i guess i dont know what "proof-of-publication" is exactly
 401 2014-01-15 03:05:24 <petertodd> lechuga__: means I prove to you that I published something such that some audience could see it
 402 2014-01-15 03:05:37 <petertodd> lechuga__: it's actually a term used in the legal field
 403 2014-01-15 03:06:00 <lechuga__> ok so proof-of-publciation is just that miners accepted my txn and included it in the chain
 404 2014-01-15 03:06:05 <lechuga__> ?
 405 2014-01-15 03:06:17 <petertodd> lechuga__: well, why did that prove publication?
 406 2014-01-15 03:06:26 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 407 2014-01-15 03:06:30 <petertodd> lechuga__: and more fundementally, what does that proof mean to me?
 408 2014-01-15 03:06:41 agricocb has joined
 409 2014-01-15 03:07:10 <lechuga__> it means the entire network agrees this is a unique spend and that if i give it to u the same entwork should accept your spend of it
 410 2014-01-15 03:07:32 xire has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 411 2014-01-15 03:07:34 dredredre has joined
 412 2014-01-15 03:07:37 <petertodd> lechuga__: closer, but why does it agree it's a unique spend?
 413 2014-01-15 03:08:03 <lechuga__> because its a leaf
 414 2014-01-15 03:08:10 <petertodd> a leaf?
 415 2014-01-15 03:08:12 <lechuga__> well
 416 2014-01-15 03:08:47 <sipa> a leaf in the transaction dag, he means
 417 2014-01-15 03:09:23 <lechuga__> you could walk the blockchain backwards and verify its origin
 418 2014-01-15 03:09:28 hoffmabc has quit (Client Quit)
 419 2014-01-15 03:09:40 <lechuga__> and in doing so verify im the only one who has it now
 420 2014-01-15 03:09:47 <petertodd> lechuga__: lets think about how you spend a single txout for a moment
 421 2014-01-15 03:09:56 <lechuga__> via scriptSig
 422 2014-01-15 03:09:58 <petertodd> lechuga__: ignore the rest of the complexity of a transaction
 423 2014-01-15 03:09:59 <petertodd> correct
 424 2014-01-15 03:10:14 <lechuga__> which is a signed hash of the prevout + the connected scriptPubKey
 425 2014-01-15 03:10:14 <petertodd> so a valid scriptSig is now in the blockchian, what is that?
 426 2014-01-15 03:10:51 <lechuga__> proof that i am the keymaster
 427 2014-01-15 03:11:00 <lechuga__> from gozar
 428 2014-01-15 03:11:16 <lechuga__> it proves i own some key
 429 2014-01-15 03:11:39 <petertodd> sure
 430 2014-01-15 03:11:43 <petertodd> that's one part of it
 431 2014-01-15 03:11:51 <petertodd> but how does it relate to the double-spend problem?
 432 2014-01-15 03:11:59 <lechuga__> and it proves we have a consistent view of the prevout
 433 2014-01-15 03:12:42 dredredre has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 434 2014-01-15 03:12:52 <petertodd> right, and why is our view consistent?
 435 2014-01-15 03:13:04 <lechuga__> some1 else cant spend it because my pubkey was in the conected scriptPubKey
 436 2014-01-15 03:13:28 <lechuga__> and now ive used my privkey to create the scriptSig and verify that output was meant for me
 437 2014-01-15 03:13:44 <petertodd> sure, but lets suppose miners didn't bother actually checking that - they'd happily include *both* transactions in the blockchain, then what?
 438 2014-01-15 03:13:49 <sipa> that means it is correct in your view
 439 2014-01-15 03:13:59 <sipa> it doesn't have anything to do with why that view is consistant
 440 2014-01-15 03:14:15 <sipa> (that was an answer to lechuga__)
 441 2014-01-15 03:14:27 <EasyAt> You've never seen those outputs spent before
 442 2014-01-15 03:15:02 <lechuga__> the block wouldnt make it onto the blockchain
 443 2014-01-15 03:15:21 <lechuga__> the double-spend woudl be invalid because someone couldnt create a redeeming scriptSig w/o my key
 444 2014-01-15 03:15:30 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 445 2014-01-15 03:15:37 MobPhone has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 446 2014-01-15 03:16:10 <petertodd> lechuga__: suppose it was you that make the double spend
 447 2014-01-15 03:16:27 <petertodd> lechuga__: and heck, suppose miners let *invalid* transactions into the blockchain, then what? (like totally invalid)
 448 2014-01-15 03:16:41 <lechuga__> nodes would still reject it
 449 2014-01-15 03:17:51 <lechuga__> when it came tiem to validate the second txn it woudl be seen that the output was spent
 450 2014-01-15 03:18:01 <lechuga__> i feel like im talking in circles :)
 451 2014-01-15 03:18:35 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 452 2014-01-15 03:19:15 <petertodd> lechuga__: assume there are no nodes other than miners
 453 2014-01-15 03:19:23 brson has joined
 454 2014-01-15 03:19:26 <warren> sipa: ooh, "<sipa> [11:58:28] in src/leveldb/db/builder.cc, replace the call to TableFileName to one to SSTTableFileName" doesn't work as a one liner, the latter isn't in the namespace
 455 2014-01-15 03:19:28 <petertodd> lechuga__: rules now are, whatever crap you want in the blockchain, you can put in there
 456 2014-01-15 03:19:37 jddebug has joined
 457 2014-01-15 03:20:19 <lechuga__> well you can check it
 458 2014-01-15 03:20:27 <petertodd> lechuga__: exactly!
 459 2014-01-15 03:20:32 <sipa> warren: uh?
 460 2014-01-15 03:20:35 <petertodd> lechuga__: you don't need to rely on other people checking it
 461 2014-01-15 03:20:56 <lechuga__> right
 462 2014-01-15 03:21:01 Sleepnbum has joined
 463 2014-01-15 03:21:03 <warren> sipa: oops... I was working on the wrong branch
 464 2014-01-15 03:21:22 <lechuga__> oh was that all you were getting at? :)
 465 2014-01-15 03:21:24 Sleepnbum is now known as Guest9716
 466 2014-01-15 03:21:53 <petertodd> lechuga__: sure, but if no-one is checking anything, other than you, then what purpose did the blockchain serve?
 467 2014-01-15 03:24:19 <lechuga__> i could still independenty verify the txn with it
 468 2014-01-15 03:24:30 <lechuga__> and verify u own said key
 469 2014-01-15 03:24:40 jddebug has quit (Changing host)
 470 2014-01-15 03:24:40 jddebug has joined
 471 2014-01-15 03:24:49 <sipa> lechuga__: that's what you could do independently of the chain
 472 2014-01-15 03:25:11 <petertodd> lechuga__: sure you could verify signatures, but how would you convince me you didn't double-spend the tx?
 473 2014-01-15 03:25:15 <sipa> lechuga__: but what would the blockchain being there and being mined on, with all crap sent out by people to be included in it, still do?
 474 2014-01-15 03:25:21 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
 475 2014-01-15 03:25:36 yubrew has joined
 476 2014-01-15 03:25:46 <lechuga__> its stilla ledger of all the txns
 477 2014-01-15 03:26:00 <lechuga__> the crap can be filtered
 478 2014-01-15 03:26:31 moses has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 479 2014-01-15 03:26:32 <sipa> who would have to see the crap?
 480 2014-01-15 03:26:39 <petertodd> lechuga__: ok, so it'd a ledger, what did you do *for me* by putting your transaction in that ledger?
 481 2014-01-15 03:26:41 MobPhone has joined
 482 2014-01-15 03:27:00 <petertodd> lechuga__: it might be more clear if you think in terms of you trying to spend the same coins to both sipa and myself
 483 2014-01-15 03:27:39 <lechuga__> miners
 484 2014-01-15 03:27:39 <lechuga__> ?
 485 2014-01-15 03:27:39 <lechuga__> i guess not
 486 2014-01-15 03:27:42 Emcy_ has joined
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 488 2014-01-15 03:27:42 Emcy_ has joined
 489 2014-01-15 03:28:17 darkee_ has joined
 490 2014-01-15 03:28:27 <lechuga__> i proved to you everyone i have the coins
 491 2014-01-15 03:28:29 Emcy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 492 2014-01-15 03:28:30 <lechuga__> er
 493 2014-01-15 03:28:32 <lechuga__> proved to everyone
 494 2014-01-15 03:28:36 <petertodd> lechuga__: you're trying to convince both sipa and myself that you've sent us a valid payment, why doesn't that work?
 495 2014-01-15 03:29:11 <lechuga__> you both have a consistent view of the ledger
 496 2014-01-15 03:29:16 phillipsjk has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 497 2014-01-15 03:29:21 <petertodd> lechuga__: and why *does* it work if you only send one of us the payment?
 498 2014-01-15 03:30:00 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 499 2014-01-15 03:30:32 <lechuga__> you both can independently verify it with the ledger
 500 2014-01-15 03:30:32 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 501 2014-01-15 03:30:54 <lechuga__> i feel like im beign dense
 502 2014-01-15 03:31:02 <EasyAt> me too
 503 2014-01-15 03:31:09 <lechuga__> u think im dense? :)
 504 2014-01-15 03:31:16 <EasyAt> no, I feel dense
 505 2014-01-15 03:31:19 <lechuga__> haha
 506 2014-01-15 03:31:32 <petertodd> lechuga__: it only took me, like, 3 years before I thought of the concept of proof-of-publication, no worries :P
 507 2014-01-15 03:31:52 <EasyAt> I feel like Im missing something because this seems like all you do is respect the bytes that you move through first while scanning the chain
 508 2014-01-15 03:32:06 nightlingo has joined
 509 2014-01-15 03:32:56 <lechuga__> hmmmm
 510 2014-01-15 03:33:13 <EasyAt> petertodd: Isn't not being in the UTXO set enough?
 511 2014-01-15 03:33:34 <petertodd> EasyAt: sure, but when I see those bytes, and my payment comes first, what is that really telling me that *you* did with respect to the rest of the world?
 512 2014-01-15 03:33:47 <EasyAt> I choose you
 513 2014-01-15 03:34:02 <petertodd> EasyAt: did you "choose me" in secret?
 514 2014-01-15 03:34:16 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 515 2014-01-15 03:34:22 <lechuga__> no its public that he chose you because its been tiemstamped
 516 2014-01-15 03:34:26 <EasyAt> No, I've proven publication... i suppose
 517 2014-01-15 03:34:32 agricocb has joined
 518 2014-01-15 03:35:00 <lechuga__> its publically recorded that you were paid first
 519 2014-01-15 03:35:06 <lechuga__> and that everyone was told so
 520 2014-01-15 03:35:14 <petertodd> EasyAt: yup, and by proving publication I can be confident I saw the first spend of that txout, becuase the *definition* of a valid spend is to publish it publicly!
 521 2014-01-15 03:35:23 sassamo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 522 2014-01-15 03:35:50 sassamo has joined
 523 2014-01-15 03:36:05 <EasyAt> yes
 524 2014-01-15 03:36:13 <petertodd> lechuga__: notably, is it just enough to only timestamp the tx?
 525 2014-01-15 03:36:24 <lechuga__> and sign it
 526 2014-01-15 03:36:33 <EasyAt> Isn't that th epoint I guess?  I feel like I'm missing something
 527 2014-01-15 03:36:48 <lechuga__> the timestamp has to be agreed upon
 528 2014-01-15 03:36:56 <lechuga__> and published
 529 2014-01-15 03:37:12 <petertodd> lechuga__: signing is a given, but if you gave me a scriptSig that was timestamped, proving it existed on a certain data, does that prove anything about what other valid spends might exist of that same txout?
 530 2014-01-15 03:37:27 <EasyAt> So, we blockchain the blockchain
 531 2014-01-15 03:37:46 <petertodd> EasyAt: wht do you mean by that?
 532 2014-01-15 03:38:11 <lechuga__> no because it needs to be part of the chain as well
 533 2014-01-15 03:38:20 Subo1977 has joined
 534 2014-01-15 03:38:36 <petertodd> lechuga__: right, a timestamp only tells you about existance of data, and nothing about consensus
 535 2014-01-15 03:40:50 sassamo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 536 2014-01-15 03:40:50 <lechuga__> so its in a block that has been hashed in a chain and is open for the world to see
 537 2014-01-15 03:41:25 <lechuga__> is there still more?
 538 2014-01-15 03:41:30 dredredre has joined
 539 2014-01-15 03:41:52 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 540 2014-01-15 03:41:52 <petertodd> lechuga__: heh, well, that's the basic lesson, the advanced one gets a lot weirder
 541 2014-01-15 03:42:08 <petertodd> lechuga__: and I don't think anyone has fully figured out the details of it
 542 2014-01-15 03:42:17 <lechuga__> ?
 543 2014-01-15 03:42:38 <lechuga__> im curious
 544 2014-01-15 03:43:42 phillipsjk has joined
 545 2014-01-15 03:43:48 <petertodd> lechuga__: tl;dr: you don't actually appear to need consensus over the state of all coins, you just need "local" consensus about some subset of the transaction output space, as little as a single transaction output
 546 2014-01-15 03:44:06 <petertodd> lechuga__: but how to actually pull that off in practice without screwing up the economics and security of bitcoin... dunno
 547 2014-01-15 03:44:29 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 548 2014-01-15 03:45:36 <lechuga__> local consensus of some txo w/o referencing the blockchain?
 549 2014-01-15 03:46:44 <lechuga__> and what is "local"
 550 2014-01-15 03:46:51 <lechuga__> the payer and the payee?
 551 2014-01-15 03:47:05 <petertodd> lechuga__: well we're still using a blockchain, but if consensus can be local, what exactly would miners be proving?
 552 2014-01-15 03:47:31 <petertodd> lechuga__: remember that we can still have very strong global *timestamping*, it's just that the timestamping isn't proof that the data was shown to anyone
 553 2014-01-15 03:47:49 <EasyAt> petertodd: Are you talking about isolated networks?
 554 2014-01-15 03:47:50 lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 556 2014-01-15 03:47:56 <petertodd> EasyAt: nope
 557 2014-01-15 03:48:06 <lechuga__> local with respect to what
 558 2014-01-15 03:48:18 <lechuga__> just some subset of the population?
 559 2014-01-15 03:48:21 <lechuga__> arbitrarilty sized?
 560 2014-01-15 03:49:04 mattco has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 561 2014-01-15 03:49:08 <petertodd> lechuga__: well, suppose that transaction outputs starting with 0 were handled by some miners, starting with 1 handled by some other, and so on for all 256 possibilities, could those miners still create a strong *tiemstamping* chain? sure
 562 2014-01-15 03:49:23 <petertodd> lechuga__: but then, what does the present of a txout in the blockchain mean exactly?
 563 2014-01-15 03:49:32 <petertodd> lechuga__: given only 1/256th of all miners ever had anything to do with it
 564 2014-01-15 03:49:44 <lechuga__> i sent it to at least one other person?
 565 2014-01-15 03:49:57 <lechuga__> er one other node
 566 2014-01-15 03:50:49 <petertodd> right, so someone saw it, in fact, 1/256th of all miners did
 567 2014-01-15 03:51:02 <petertodd> but how secure is that? and against what types of attacks?
 568 2014-01-15 03:51:03 mattco has joined
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 570 2014-01-15 03:53:32 <EasyAt> petertodd: Does each miner verify the whole chain
 571 2014-01-15 03:54:11 <lechuga__> i dont *think* its any less secure
 572 2014-01-15 03:54:11 <petertodd> EasyAt: forget verification in this example, miners just put junk in the blockchain when requested
 573 2014-01-15 03:54:27 <EasyAt> petertodd: I guess I mean do they all have a full copy
 574 2014-01-15 03:54:42 <petertodd> nope, just 1/256th of the blockchain
 575 2014-01-15 03:54:53 <EasyAt> mercy
 576 2014-01-15 03:55:29 <petertodd> EasyAt: heh, you can see why reasoning about this is rather attractive from a scalability point of view
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 578 2014-01-15 03:56:10 <lechuga__> hmmm
 579 2014-01-15 03:56:30 Gnaf has joined
 580 2014-01-15 03:56:38 <lechuga__> are u proposing the tx hashspace be consistently divided across the miners?
 581 2014-01-15 03:56:41 <lechuga__> for real
 582 2014-01-15 03:56:46 <petertodd> lechuga__: yup
 583 2014-01-15 03:56:52 <lechuga__> thats interesting
 584 2014-01-15 03:57:05 <lechuga__> in orde to double-spend theyd have to hash both their spends to the same space
 585 2014-01-15 03:57:10 <petertodd> lechuga__: and since we're imagining a system where miners don't validate anything doing that is pretty easy
 586 2014-01-15 03:57:28 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 587 2014-01-15 03:57:40 <lechuga__> when i say for real what i mean to ask is are u considering doing this for real on the real network?
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 589 2014-01-15 03:58:10 <petertodd> lechuga__: I'm looking into it, but bitcoin itself is probably too entrenched to change that drasticly
 590 2014-01-15 03:58:36 <lechuga__> i think that would seriously mitigate 51% double spends
 591 2014-01-15 03:59:02 <lechuga__> and dont see why it wouldnt be just as secure
 592 2014-01-15 03:59:20 <petertodd> why would it mitigate 51%?
 593 2014-01-15 03:59:31 <lechuga__> well in that attack
 594 2014-01-15 03:59:42 <lechuga__> prsumably a pool (or some1 with consolidated hashign power)
 595 2014-01-15 04:00:02 <lechuga__> broadcasts a spend
 596 2014-01-15 04:00:16 <lechuga__> but internally only work on hashing a spend to some1 else on a forked chain
 597 2014-01-15 04:00:37 <lechuga__> back to themself maybe
 598 2014-01-15 04:00:53 <petertodd> nah, this stuff has nothign to do with 51% attacks - you can't defend against them
 599 2014-01-15 04:00:59 <EasyAt> Why does hashing to the same place matter
 600 2014-01-15 04:01:03 <EasyAt> s/place/space
 601 2014-01-15 04:01:27 <petertodd> EasyAt: in our model you only "mine" a part of the blockchain by actually having the data, and then doing some PoW problem
 602 2014-01-15 04:01:43 <petertodd> EasyAt: easiest is to imagine that the PoW problem involved the blockchain data itself somehow
 603 2014-01-15 04:02:51 <lechuga__> and with that i really need to leave the office, bbl
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 606 2014-01-15 04:04:54 <petertodd> lechuga__: later
 607 2014-01-15 04:05:57 <EasyAt> petertodd: If all blockchains are independant I can spend 256 times
 608 2014-01-15 04:06:00 <EasyAt> once per chain
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 610 2014-01-15 04:06:58 <EasyAt> Unless we share a UTXO and Spent TXO set... which is a stripped down blockchain, no?
 611 2014-01-15 04:07:01 dmanderson_afk is now known as dmanderson
 612 2014-01-15 04:07:17 <petertodd> EasyAt: you kinda share it: it's split across the different chains
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 614 2014-01-15 04:07:37 <petertodd> EasyAt: like, suppose coins were just tokens moved from person to person - they didnd't get split
 615 2014-01-15 04:08:01 <petertodd> EasyAt: if my token's identifier started with 0x01, it goes in the 0x01 chain, 0x02, the 0x02 chain etc.
 616 2014-01-15 04:08:39 <EasyAt> sAre coins losing identity to be replaced with how many I own and can provable spend at any time in this system?
 617 2014-01-15 04:09:30 <petertodd> EasyAt: easy, the token gets moved backed on a valid scriptSig
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 628 2014-01-15 04:17:43 <EasyAt> So, how do I make sure my token is in 1 place at any moment?
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 632 2014-01-15 04:19:15 <petertodd> Well, good question! There's a lot of ways to handle that and none have been tried in real life. :)
 633 2014-01-15 04:19:51 <petertodd> if if you want to work with transactions, rather than single purpose tokens, it just gets even more complex
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 638 2014-01-15 04:23:45 <EasyAt> Unless I have a synopsis of the spent TX set it's impossible
 639 2014-01-15 04:24:31 <petertodd> Ah! But that's it, you can get a succinct and compact proof that things exist in some claimed TX set, for example.
 640 2014-01-15 04:24:59 <petertodd> So if you *trusted* that chain 0x01 was operating correctly and in honest consensus, on chain 0x05 you could accept such a proof as valid for soemthing or another.
 641 2014-01-15 04:25:14 <petertodd> But then, how do you arrange so that you actually can trust that?
 642 2014-01-15 04:26:36 ericmuyser has joined
 643 2014-01-15 04:29:00 <jcorgan> petertodd: not to derail the current thread, just wanted to confirm--your proposed stealth addresses don't require any changes to the bitcoin protocol, but rather rely on embedding a value using OP_RETURN, which now considered standard?
 644 2014-01-15 04:29:47 brianherman has joined
 645 2014-01-15 04:30:20 <brianherman> hello I am having trouble compiling bitcoind on windows
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 647 2014-01-15 04:30:38 <petertodd> jcorgan: correct, and actually, you can implement them without OP_RETURN too, but there's advantages to making the ephemereal pubkey separate
 648 2014-01-15 04:30:58 xire has joined
 649 2014-01-15 04:31:44 <brianherman> i have cygwin installed and I built autotools and automake from source but it seems not to find the libdb library i compiled the libdb library and installed it but cygwin doesnt seem to find it
 650 2014-01-15 04:34:11 <brianherman> I have also tried setting the ld_library_path and the cxx path
 651 2014-01-15 04:35:01 ZG has joined
 652 2014-01-15 04:36:10 <SomeoneWeird> you're trying to compile bitcoind under a unix environment on a windows host?
 653 2014-01-15 04:36:13 <SomeoneWeird> uh, why?
 654 2014-01-15 04:36:22 sassamo has joined
 655 2014-01-15 04:36:23 <brianherman> is there an easier way?
 656 2014-01-15 04:36:26 <brianherman> i have visual studio
 657 2014-01-15 04:37:22 <SomeoneWeird> isn't there a cmake or something?
 658 2014-01-15 04:37:28 <brianherman> no it uses autotools
 659 2014-01-15 04:37:35 <SomeoneWeird> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/587/how-do-i-build-bitcoin-source-in-windows-7
 660 2014-01-15 04:38:59 <brianherman> bitcoin uses qt instead of wxwidgets
 661 2014-01-15 04:39:27 <SomeoneWeird> it does now, yes, it should be relatively the same process though
 662 2014-01-15 04:39:43 <brianherman> oh ok
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 665 2014-01-15 04:41:18 <jcorgan> petertodd: do you have it written up anywhere beside on the list?
 666 2014-01-15 04:42:35 <brianherman> someoneweird: this is a better guide https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149479.0;all
 667 2014-01-15 04:42:51 <warren> wumpus: fonts look better in wine with qt5 =)
 668 2014-01-15 04:43:29 <petertodd> jcorgan: not yet
 669 2014-01-15 04:43:52 <petertodd> jcorgan: it'll probably get turned into a BIP before long - jspilman is already implementing it
 670 2014-01-15 04:44:48 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 671 2014-01-15 04:45:01 <EasyAt> petertodd: Merkle trees full of transaction hashes?
 672 2014-01-15 04:45:08 agricocb has joined
 673 2014-01-15 04:46:33 <EasyAt> Hash to the top and embed
 674 2014-01-15 04:46:35 <petertodd> EasyAt: yup
 675 2014-01-15 04:46:56 <petertodd> EasyAt: problem is, more of a timestamp than real proof of anything
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 681 2014-01-15 04:49:18 <EasyAt> http://utxo.tumblr.com/ me and my roomate love this
 682 2014-01-15 04:50:23 xire has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 683 2014-01-15 04:50:27 <EasyAt> THough, I'm sure you've all seen it
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 686 2014-01-15 04:55:43 <EasyAt> petertodd: ^ you? :D
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 689 2014-01-15 04:58:31 <petertodd> EasyAt: not me, maaku, and I have my objections to his approach :)
 690 2014-01-15 04:59:49 <jcorgan> if merchants used stealth addresses to receive payments, it would make it much easier for them to accept payment for a single logical transaction in the form of multiple stealth TXes, which would lessen the need for people to merge up their UTXOs...great benefit
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 696 2014-01-15 05:06:44 <petertodd> jcorgan: yeah, no-one's really mentioned stealth addr metadata I've noticed
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 698 2014-01-15 05:07:27 <petertodd> jcorgan: amir taaki did point out you can use one stealthed nonce for multiple payments, although the logic if you want to make multiple simultaneous payments can be a bit ugly
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 700 2014-01-15 05:09:13 <EasyAt> Is there any information on these stealth addresses?  I google and find nothing
 701 2014-01-15 05:09:56 CheckDavid has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 702 2014-01-15 05:09:56 <petertodd> EasyAt: just one thread on bitcoin-development mailing list
 703 2014-01-15 05:10:15 <jcorgan> wouldn't reusing the ephemeral pubkey allow the TXes to be linked in the blockchain by the common OP_RETURN data?
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 708 2014-01-15 05:12:08 <petertodd> jcorgan: I meant re-use as in using a pubkey that was already in the tx for the purpose of being a ephemeral pubkey
 709 2014-01-15 05:13:59 yubrew has joined
 710 2014-01-15 05:14:14 <jcorgan> ah, got it
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 716 2014-01-15 05:19:05 <jcorgan> of course, now that we can have a fixed stealth addresses, someone has to write a generator for *vanity* stealth addresses :)
 717 2014-01-15 05:20:23 <petertodd> jcorgan: lol! depending on how the addresses are constructed that might not be very difficult
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 721 2014-01-15 05:23:09 <jcorgan> well, they're not hashed, so I guess you'd just grind on 'd' until you get a 'Q' that encodes to your specification
 722 2014-01-15 05:23:12 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
 723 2014-01-15 05:25:00 <jcorgan> said grinding to be done with a PRNG for 'd'
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 725 2014-01-15 05:25:16 <gmaxwell> If there is a free-form field for prefix identification you use that as a nonce in order to get an n-fold improvement over point addition.
 726 2014-01-15 05:26:23 <jcorgan> can you break that down a bit
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 729 2014-01-15 05:28:47 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: petertodd was proposing that these addresses encode an optional 'cookie' that could be included in transactions to help limit the number of transactions which you must do expensive calculations to see if they're yours.  E.g. just a 8 bit (for example) random number.  It would reduce your privacy by the size of the prefix.
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 732 2014-01-15 05:29:44 <gmaxwell> so if you stick that prefix near the front of the address then your can vanity-grind that part very fast without updating one of the ecc points.
 733 2014-01-15 05:30:17 eoss has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 734 2014-01-15 05:30:17 <gmaxwell> also the ECC points can be grinded by just continually adding G to them, which is _much_ faster than doing the full multiply (each addition of G increases the private key by 1)
 735 2014-01-15 05:30:44 <jcorgan> yeah, great idea
 736 2014-01-15 05:30:59 <gmaxwell> if the encoding of the address is right, grinding that prefix could change the whole thing.
 737 2014-01-15 05:31:20 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 738 2014-01-15 05:31:47 <jcorgan> i don't think hashing was proposed, was it?
 739 2014-01-15 05:32:16 <petertodd> jcorgan: you mean for scriptPubKey indexes?
 740 2014-01-15 05:32:27 <gmaxwell> e.g. say your address material is [prefix][Q][P][flags]  and then change the encoding to [prefix] prefix(repeated) xor [Q][P][FLAGS]
 741 2014-01-15 05:32:34 <jcorgan> for the published Q or Q,Q2 data
 742 2014-01-15 05:32:55 <petertodd> jcorgan: how would that be hashed?
 743 2014-01-15 05:32:56 <gmaxwell> then you could generate a new Q then solve for the prefix to make your vanity match, should such a prefix exist.
 744 2014-01-15 05:33:17 <gmaxwell> and then that basically gives you 16 bits of vanity space for free.
 745 2014-01-15 05:33:18 <jcorgan> i don't think it could be
 746 2014-01-15 05:33:22 <gmaxwell> (e.g. no computation at all)
 747 2014-01-15 05:34:16 <jcorgan> but I see now how gmaxwell is getting the "whole thing changes", which I though he was referring to changing a hash output
 748 2014-01-15 05:34:33 Vinnie_win has quit ()
 749 2014-01-15 05:34:33 <gmaxwell> (I'd say you got it for free anyways, but not all Q values points, so some vanity would be unreachable without some kind of permutation)
 750 2014-01-15 05:35:40 <jcorgan> you'd start with a random 'd', generate a trial Q, then just keep adding G to it, so there's no risk of someone else duplicating the vanity key if the initial 'd' had high enough entropy, right?
 751 2014-01-15 05:35:52 <gmaxwell> OTOH, I've thought before that anti-vanity constructions are better that pro-vanity. :(  The problem is that vanity addresses strongly encourage clearly insecure behavior.
 752 2014-01-15 05:36:07 <gmaxwell> (there were hundreds of lookalike silkroad onion domain names)
 753 2014-01-15 05:36:18 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: correct.
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 760 2014-01-15 05:40:53 <jcorgan> ah, like typo'd domain names.  I wonder, without hashing, how to create a checksum for the encoding so simple changes become invalid
 761 2014-01-15 05:41:47 <jcorgan> i don't see how it is possible
 762 2014-01-15 05:42:03 <gmaxwell> it's not hard to do that, just an error correcting code. The problem is that e.g. my address is gmaxwell29348923849  and someone else gives you gmaxwell589438593  ... it's entirely different but you're only paying attention to the gmaxwell part.
 763 2014-01-15 05:42:14 sassamo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 764 2014-01-15 05:42:15 <jcorgan> yeah
 765 2014-01-15 05:43:07 <gmaxwell> What can be done instead is just making it more difficulty to generate a vanity address at all. E.g. by requiring that the hash of any valid address begin with 24 zeros.
 766 2014-01-15 05:44:02 <jcorgan> i don't suppose there are any economic incentives that would pay for a vanity address generator ASIC development effort :)
 767 2014-01-15 05:44:35 <gmaxwell> (if the addresses weren't space constrained, even better would be to require that any vanity addresses encode two addresses such that the hashes of the addresses were partial collisions ... since doing that gives a quadratic advantage to someone who doesn't care what their address looks like)
 768 2014-01-15 05:45:22 eoss has joined
 769 2014-01-15 05:45:32 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: well if someone does that, more power to them. :P
 770 2014-01-15 05:45:33 <jcorgan> dude, you should have someone following you around logging everything you say.  oh wait...
 771 2014-01-15 05:45:49 <Denim-jdev> I don't understand why you are trying to stamp out vanity addresses.  Just to stop stupid people from making stupid mistakes?
 772 2014-01-15 05:46:17 <lechuga__> i want mine to say 1ThUGNazTY... but it's going to take 10 thousand years
 773 2014-01-15 05:46:20 <lechuga__> seems worth the wait
 774 2014-01-15 05:46:32 <Denim-jdev> It's like trying to remove bitcoin because people get their wallets "hacked"
 775 2014-01-15 05:47:44 <maaku> Denim-jdev: he just gave a great reason why people shouldn't use vanity addresses...
 776 2014-01-15 05:48:31 cadaver has joined
 777 2014-01-15 05:48:36 <Denim-jdev> and I'm saying that that reason only applies to stupid people making stupid mistakes
 778 2014-01-15 05:49:44 <Denim-jdev> should we ban video games because some people confuse fantasy with reality, and act violently IRL?
 779 2014-01-15 05:49:50 <Denim-jdev> I feel like it's punishing everyone else
 780 2014-01-15 05:50:10 <jcorgan> well, it might actually make a MITM address substitution more effective
 781 2014-01-15 05:50:15 <Denim-jdev> If it's really a problem, people will just stop using vanity addresses to prevent people from getting their vanity address confused with another
 782 2014-01-15 05:52:17 saulimus has joined
 783 2014-01-15 05:52:34 <maaku> Denim-jdev: as developers, we have a responsibility for making systems where safety is the default even without user education
 784 2014-01-15 05:52:45 <gmaxwell> Denim-jdev: the whole purpose of having software is to make things accessible to people. Technically if I gave you nothing more than a terminal and assembler you could write the whole thing yourself.  Part of why we do this is to embed expert understanding into the software— the product of many minds considering for months a single action that your computer does in an instant— and that includes making the software safe against ...
 785 2014-01-15 05:52:51 <gmaxwell> ... probable poor use.
 786 2014-01-15 05:53:43 <gmaxwell> Obviously this sometimes presents tradeoffs between flexibility and safty. Though usually you can have both.  "Vanity" addresses really skirt the borderline of unsafe-at-any-speed.
 787 2014-01-15 05:54:19 <phillipsjk> It is ok if you use a new Vanity address with every transaction :)
 788 2014-01-15 05:54:24 <jcorgan> LOL
 789 2014-01-15 05:54:27 <gmaxwell> Certantly they're safe if you don't ever look at them, except to the extent that they cause poor practices like bad key management (address reuse, manual key handling...).  But they're also pointless if no one looks at them.
 790 2014-01-15 05:54:43 <lechuga__> lol
 791 2014-01-15 05:54:46 <gmaxwell> If people do look at them they present extra risks.
 792 2014-01-15 05:55:28 smash_ has joined
 793 2014-01-15 05:55:37 <gmaxwell> ... because, you know, you might actually do something based on looking at them. ... like assume a vanity onion beginning with "silkroad" is probably actually silkroad. ... I mean, duh, thats why it's vanity.
 794 2014-01-15 05:56:39 <gmaxwell> if people generated vanity addresses in a different way, selecting their name of their service based on picking from a long selection of probably comprehensible vanitys, then that might be interesting... because they might actually end up with a name whos comprehensible part was longer than any attacker was going to match.
 795 2014-01-15 05:57:38 <gmaxwell> But then you have to name your service something dorky, because thats the best the tool produced.
 796 2014-01-15 05:57:50 <lechuga__> im constantly sending cash to these nigerians @ 1redcrossRJz9TZjr81NtdUQ5XDKitsQHEx
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 798 2014-01-15 05:58:23 <brianherman> why lechuga_
 799 2014-01-15 05:58:34 <lechuga__> falling for their spam
 800 2014-01-15 05:58:48 <brianherman> lol
 801 2014-01-15 05:59:06 <lechuga__> tab completion is a double-edged sword
 802 2014-01-15 05:59:10 <gmaxwell> (e.g. 1KATWALSHTHECuz5DFHoNqJax6hnDbL6KN is an address I grinded out)  ... 2^82 work to reproduce the KATWALSHTHECuz part... but geesh, who'd want to use an address like that.
 803 2014-01-15 05:59:32 cadaver has left ()
 804 2014-01-15 05:59:40 <lechuga__> lol
 805 2014-01-15 06:06:11 <Denim-jdev> I can somewhat understand the onion adresses - it's easier to remember a word than all characters in a word.  This doesn't apply to bitcoin though, as nobody is memorizing an entire address even with vanity
 806 2014-01-15 06:06:31 <Denim-jdev> I'll have to think on the other arguments, thanks for clarification
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 809 2014-01-15 06:08:17 <lechuga__> i was joking but some1 could search 'redcross bitcoin address' and see someone scamming and A) not notice the domain of the url wasnt redcross.org and B) the vanity address and just copy itdirectly from the goog search results without even clicking
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 811 2014-01-15 06:09:20 <lechuga__> doesnt seem super probable but its a non-0 risk for sure
 812 2014-01-15 06:09:33 <lechuga__> and needless really
 813 2014-01-15 06:10:49 <andytoshi> as an illustration of this vanity thing, i routinely coinjoin my money to vanity addresses with other IRC user's names in them
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 815 2014-01-15 06:10:53 <andytoshi> mainly sipa, his is short :)
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 819 2014-01-15 06:16:50 <lechuga__> do bitpay/coinbase implement BIP 70 yet?
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 821 2014-01-15 06:19:14 <amiller> who wants to talk about assurance contracts
 822 2014-01-15 06:19:29 <lechuga__> listening
 823 2014-01-15 06:19:32 <amiller> as usual there's a wiki article, written by mike in this case, that suggests you can do it with bitcoin, but it's not entirely correct and pretty misleading
 824 2014-01-15 06:19:35 <amiller> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_3:_Assurance_contracts
 825 2014-01-15 06:20:03 <amiller> in an assurance contract, a party makes a binding commitment of the form "i will pay $10 to A, as long as $100 of commitments are reached in total before time X"
 826 2014-01-15 06:20:08 <amiller> in the protocol described on this wiki, there's a move where a sufficient number of txinputs are collected, a party signs that transaction
 827 2014-01-15 06:20:16 <amiller> the problem is, this is *not* a binding commitment
 828 2014-01-15 06:20:21 <amiller> that first party could spend their coin away first
 829 2014-01-15 06:21:24 <petertodd> amiller: heh, I've heard a few newbies get real confused on that point
 830 2014-01-15 06:21:41 <petertodd> amiller: that mechanism is also rather dangerous because it's easy to wind up with huge fees...
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 832 2014-01-15 06:22:09 <amiller> what sucks is, i want to be able to use assurance contracts and dominant assurance contracts especially, as guiding examples for a more expressive scripting language
 833 2014-01-15 06:22:11 <petertodd> amiller: and the "funding network security" bit is hilariously wrong
 834 2014-01-15 06:22:35 <amiller> (note to whoever, turing complete has absolutely nothing to do with what expressive means in this case)
 835 2014-01-15 06:22:59 <amiller> it's hard to use it as an example when it's already canon that current script is sufficient to implement it
 836 2014-01-15 06:23:02 <petertodd> amiller: heh, re-write that section pointing how how badly the mechanism works and see how long it takes to get reverted :)
 837 2014-01-15 06:23:24 <amiller> so it gets me pissed when the claim is that it impelments assurance contracts when due to a (admittedly subtle) detail, it doesnt
 838 2014-01-15 06:23:39 <petertodd> amiller: I swear, it's like the guy had about a half-dozen semi-good ideas and had held on to them for dear life ever since :P
 839 2014-01-15 06:23:42 Cryo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 840 2014-01-15 06:24:43 <petertodd> amiller: oh, actually, given I fixed the funding network security page, you could use that as an actual example...
 841 2014-01-15 06:25:21 <petertodd> amiller: or make your example "funding an alt-coin attack via complex scripts" works equally well...
 842 2014-01-15 06:25:39 <amiller> so assurance contracts are of financial importance
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 844 2014-01-15 06:25:44 <amiller> that's pretty different than the example i usually use
 845 2014-01-15 06:25:46 <amiller> which is a funded chess game
 846 2014-01-15 06:25:48 <amiller> or a funded poker game
 847 2014-01-15 06:26:12 <amiller> attacking other altcoins etc, like those, kind of goes under esoteric sort of wacky-finance
 848 2014-01-15 06:26:51 <amiller> an auction is the classic economically-meaningful example but i don't want to use that as an example because there's privacy things with it too
 849 2014-01-15 06:27:25 <amiller> this wouldn't be the first time i've tried to edit a bunch of crap that mike's written on the wiki, but it's tricky because i don't disagree with the sentiment of it just a detail about whether current script is sufficient
 850 2014-01-15 06:27:38 <amiller> i also hate the agents page for similar reasons but... that's separate
 851 2014-01-15 06:27:47 <amiller> anyway i'm not sure what i'd revise this page to say
 852 2014-01-15 06:27:54 <amiller> "no assurance contracts don't appear to be possible?"
 853 2014-01-15 06:28:03 <petertodd> heh, ever noticed I've never bothered toughing the scalability page?
 854 2014-01-15 06:28:05 <amiller> "the following script is not an assurance contract but a poor approximation?"
 855 2014-01-15 06:28:22 <petertodd> "An approximation of assurance contracts can be made"?
 856 2014-01-15 06:28:23 <lechuga__> is the fundamental issue just that the coins can be spent prior to broadcasting the txn?
 857 2014-01-15 06:28:32 <lechuga__> or are there more flaws
 858 2014-01-15 06:28:50 <lechuga__> the oracle example has a similar issue
 859 2014-01-15 06:28:53 <lechuga__> sort of
 860 2014-01-15 06:29:01 <amiller> oracle is a woowoo word for trusted third party
 861 2014-01-15 06:29:06 <petertodd> lechuga__: that's the reason it's not a contract, and on top of that it's easy to have too many people sign funds to the contract, and create a huge-fee tx
 862 2014-01-15 06:29:20 <lechuga__> well also it suggests broadcasting the contract at the time of claim
 863 2014-01-15 06:29:23 <amiller> i think that's the only problem with "Assurance Contracts" as such, but i would actually prefer to implement dominant assurance contracts
 864 2014-01-15 06:29:30 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
 865 2014-01-15 06:29:47 <amiller> but i want to be clear that a dominant assurance contract is not a contrived extension to make it not-possible-with-current-script
 866 2014-01-15 06:29:55 <amiller> even ordinary assurance contracts aren't possible with current script
 867 2014-01-15 06:31:35 <lechuga__> when you say "not possible with current script" are you implying extending the script language would make it possible?
 868 2014-01-15 06:31:48 <amiller> yes
 869 2014-01-15 06:32:23 <lechuga__> i guess i believe that
 870 2014-01-15 06:32:57 <lechuga__> seems like people fear allowing a more rich evaluation of the script
 871 2014-01-15 06:33:11 <lechuga__> kinda sucks imo but i get it
 872 2014-01-15 06:33:14 <petertodd> lechuga__: people fear changing anything, and I can't blame them
 873 2014-01-15 06:35:13 <lechuga__> a 0-day bitcoin exploit sort of has more of an immediate financial and social impact than a buffer overflow in splitvt
 874 2014-01-15 06:35:56 <petertodd> lechuga__: potentially harder to fix too
 875 2014-01-15 06:36:15 <lechuga__> right you might not get a chance to release a patch
 876 2014-01-15 06:37:00 <petertodd> lechuga__: yeah, and testing the patch is harder for a lot of reasons...
 877 2014-01-15 06:37:47 <lechuga__> im still surprised its comprehensive as it is (accounting for non-standard permutations)
 878 2014-01-15 06:38:04 <lechuga__> it wouldnt have occurred to me to to put so many opcodes in v0
 879 2014-01-15 06:38:28 <lechuga__> well i dont mean to imply any of the rest of it wouldve been especially obvious to me
 880 2014-01-15 06:38:41 <lechuga__> just seems liek a quirky detail
 881 2014-01-15 06:39:32 <lechuga__> seems like overkill for a ref impl
 882 2014-01-15 06:39:35 <petertodd> ha, yeah, we got lucky satoshi had the idea of contracts... but then it all got disabled ;(
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 884 2014-01-15 06:39:49 <lechuga__> u seem bitter :)
 885 2014-01-15 06:41:11 <petertodd> well I do hold the distinction of doiing the second most sophisticated thing ever with bitcoin scripts... which was to make a bounty for anyone who can find a sha1/sha256/etc hash collission
 886 2014-01-15 06:41:12 <lechuga__> and 'contract' doesn't occur at all in the pdf
 887 2014-01-15 06:41:15 <petertodd> not exactly rocket surgery
 888 2014-01-15 06:41:30 <lechuga__> heh
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 891 2014-01-15 06:43:03 <gmaxwell> lechuga__: most of the opcodes are standard stack machine fare.
 892 2014-01-15 06:43:18 <lechuga__> yeah suppose thats true
 893 2014-01-15 06:43:28 <gmaxwell> without them things would be unfun if you tried to actually do anything.
 894 2014-01-15 06:43:42 <lechuga__> i dont study finite automata much tho
 895 2014-01-15 06:43:49 <petertodd> lechuga__: I'll bet you satoshi looked up "forth" on wikipedia and copied the first opcode list he found
 896 2014-01-15 06:43:52 <gmaxwell> unfortunately, there is enough disabled that it's awful tricky to do anything.
 897 2014-01-15 06:43:55 <lechuga__> lol
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 899 2014-01-15 06:44:35 <gmaxwell> petertodd: that lottery transaction is more complex than the collision bounties.
 900 2014-01-15 06:44:57 <petertodd> gmaxwell: that's why I said second most
 901 2014-01-15 06:44:57 <gmaxwell> the collision bounties are probably the most complex script ever done that can be easily explained, however. :P
 902 2014-01-15 06:45:11 <gmaxwell> oh indeed you did, I missed that word.
 903 2014-01-15 06:45:15 <petertodd> heh
 904 2014-01-15 06:45:27 <petertodd> but for a brief period I was the champ :P
 905 2014-01-15 06:45:46 <petertodd> heh, and actually I'll argue announce-commit sacrifices held that too, although for rather different reasons
 906 2014-01-15 06:46:22 <gmaxwell> alas bragging about your transactions is adverse to the privacy of your coins.
 907 2014-01-15 06:46:48 <petertodd> lol!
 908 2014-01-15 06:46:52 <lechuga__> lol
 909 2014-01-15 06:47:13 <petertodd> gmaxwell: um, well, I've done a dozen coinswap transactions... where both parties co-operated
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 912 2014-01-15 06:48:12 <gmaxwell> there may have been some transaction types that I was the first to use on the public network, or not. there was a bunch of stuff I did first in testnet. (mostly I've not done goofy things in the main network since testnet has been around)
 913 2014-01-15 06:48:48 <gmaxwell> well, I think I may have been the first person to do a joint transaction of any kind, certantly the first publically known one.
 914 2014-01-15 06:48:59 <gmaxwell> well obviously since it was joint its a shared honor. :P
 915 2014-01-15 06:49:09 <gmaxwell> But I doubt the other party would reveal themselves!
 916 2014-01-15 06:49:22 <petertodd> lol
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 919 2014-01-15 06:50:08 <lechuga__> what do you mean joint
 920 2014-01-15 06:50:10 <lechuga__> like a multisig?
 921 2014-01-15 06:50:36 <petertodd> at least you don't hold the dubious distinction of being responsible enough to blame for OP_RETURN...
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 924 2014-01-15 06:54:55 <gmaxwell> lechuga__: like this https://blockchain.info/tx-index/47371647/69d9d66aae4812b6cf156f32267b773fb2118db696bb847ebd3454a198b59fbd
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 926 2014-01-15 06:55:36 <petertodd> lechuga__: gmaxwell is basically saying he's either stinking rich, or clever
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 928 2014-01-15 06:57:47 <gmaxwell> petertodd: oh stop. It's especially halarious now that Bc.i defaults to saying 33 million dollars.
 929 2014-01-15 06:58:13 <gmaxwell> lechuga__: this thread explains: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139581.0
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 937 2014-01-15 07:06:55 <HaltingState> sipa, if i have two people A,B and a public key for A and i want B to generate an address than only B has private key
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 939 2014-01-15 07:07:11 <HaltingState> do i just multiple the secret key as point on a curve with the private key for A
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 956 2014-01-15 07:22:28 <abrkn> what does "secret key" for m/0'/1 mean in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032_TestVectors ? isnt that a public chain?
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 961 2014-01-15 07:31:18 <abrkn> how can a chain m/0'/1/1' even exist? assuming ' means private derivation
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 989 2014-01-15 08:10:52 <swulf--> abrkn: m/0'/1 still has a private key associated with it
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 992 2014-01-15 08:12:52 <abrkn> swulf: then what is the point of the ' notation? i dont think i understand internal vs external vs private vs public
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 995 2014-01-15 08:13:12 <swulf--> the ' notation tells you what your source of derivation is
 996 2014-01-15 08:15:00 <swulf--> if your node _has_ a private key, then you use the k_child = IL + k_parent (mod N) algorithm, and the ' notation denotes whether you use the parents private key or public key to derive IL.
 997 2014-01-15 08:15:48 <swulf--> if you node doesn't have a private key, then you can't use the k=IL+kpar formula, you have to use the K_child = IL*G + K_parent formula, and IL has to come from the public key of the parent
 998 2014-01-15 08:16:09 <swulf--> (k = private key, K = public key)
 999 2014-01-15 08:16:36 <abrkn> ok. what would be a scenario in which you'd have a path like m/0/0'/0?
1000 2014-01-15 08:16:49 <swulf--> and 'internal' vs 'external' is just a naming convention given to the derivation paths m/0'/0 and m/0'/1
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1002 2014-01-15 08:17:15 <swulf--> abrkn: whatever scenario you want to give it; it's an arbitrary usage
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1004 2014-01-15 08:18:36 <abrkn> ok, i didnt quite understand the naming convention. what is internal and external in this context?
1005 2014-01-15 08:19:06 <swulf--> external - addresses you give to other people (m/k'/0/i, where k is the account and i is the keypair index), and internal would be things like change and mixing addresses
1006 2014-01-15 08:19:13 <swulf--> abrkn: check out my bip32.org site
1007 2014-01-15 08:19:56 <abrkn> swulf: i've been reading it hard. well coded :)
1008 2014-01-15 08:20:02 <swulf--> thanks
1009 2014-01-15 08:20:26 <swulf--> I'm considering whipping up stealth address transaction generation.. could do it quickly
1010 2014-01-15 08:20:36 <abrkn> k(account) like a user id?
1011 2014-01-15 08:20:54 <abrkn> or wallet id or whatever
1012 2014-01-15 08:21:00 <swulf--> consider something like, Marketing (account=1), Production (account=2), Travel (account=3), etc
1013 2014-01-15 08:21:27 <swulf--> it's heirarchical and you can label the accounts anything you want
1014 2014-01-15 08:22:15 <abrkn> swulf: i'm looking at this for an exchange. was hoping to have m/0 cold wallets, m/0/0 cold wallet 0, m/userid/depositaddressindex
1015 2014-01-15 08:22:29 <abrkn> err, m/1/userid/depositaddressindex for users
1016 2014-01-15 08:22:34 <swulf--> m being the master key for the site?
1017 2014-01-15 08:22:43 <abrkn> right, so m would be stored offline
1018 2014-01-15 08:23:08 <swulf--> I would take the key m/0'/0 as the "master user account key", and derive from that m/user_id'/0/keypair
1019 2014-01-15 08:23:29 <swulf--> so the final keys for a user would be m/0'/0/user_id'/0/i  where i increments to create new addresses
1020 2014-01-15 08:23:43 <swulf--> if you need internal addresses for users, use m/0'/0/user_id'/1/i
1021 2014-01-15 08:24:30 <abrkn> this internal/external level is confusing me :)
1022 2014-01-15 08:24:36 <swulf--> ignore it then
1023 2014-01-15 08:24:42 <swulf--> its nothing functional, just a naming convention
1024 2014-01-15 08:24:52 <abrkn> ok, but im sure theres a good reason for it and im just missing it
1025 2014-01-15 08:25:19 <swulf--> you know how bitcoind works?
1026 2014-01-15 08:25:25 <swulf--> the wallet contains addresses that are not shown to the user
1027 2014-01-15 08:25:32 <swulf--> change addresses, for example
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1029 2014-01-15 08:25:50 <abrkn> i just use it in console, really
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1031 2014-01-15 08:26:03 <abrkn> it does getnewaddress to send change to?
1032 2014-01-15 08:26:18 <swulf--> when you use getnewaddress, it produces an external address
1033 2014-01-15 08:26:32 <swulf--> when you spend from the address, internally a change address is used. that's an internal address
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1035 2014-01-15 08:27:07 <abrkn> so an external address would be what i consider my wallet
1036 2014-01-15 08:27:14 <abrkn> and internal addresses would be change addresses
1037 2014-01-15 08:27:21 <swulf--> your wallet is a collection of all your internal + external addresses
1038 2014-01-15 08:27:22 <abrkn> so inputs would be both internal/external when sending tx'
1039 2014-01-15 08:27:28 <swulf--> yes
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1051 2014-01-15 08:54:18 <HaltingState> is an ECC private key just inverse of the public key
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1054 2014-01-15 08:59:31 <gmaxwell> What do you mean?  (if you're asking if its 1/public_key, .. no)
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1060 2014-01-15 09:05:58 <abrkn> swulf: phew, my code finally starting to pass the test vectors :)
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1070 2014-01-15 09:24:30 <abrkn> swulf--: https://gist.github.com/abrkn/8910f751a16160287166
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1125 2014-01-15 10:19:01 <TD> lol
1126 2014-01-15 10:19:01 <TD> https://googledrive.com/host/0B5ZorpZjIRsZUktlLUc2RWpFNWM/BlockchainInfoGoogleServices.html
1127 2014-01-15 10:19:02 <TD> wtf
1128 2014-01-15 10:19:07 <TD> someone put a lot of effort into that
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1130 2014-01-15 10:22:30 <matjeh> wow
1131 2014-01-15 10:22:55 <matjeh> its like those banners "is your credit card stolen? enter your card # here :  ________"
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1133 2014-01-15 10:23:29 <TD> those sites are amateur though. the best ones say "To comply with US regulations around the distribution of pornographic material, we need to verify your age. Please enter your CC# here _____________"
1134 2014-01-15 10:23:43 <TD> not that it really matters for credit cards
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1138 2014-01-15 10:28:43 <gmaxwell> careful with the links to malicious stuff, someone has been hitting people with an apparent JVM zero-ish-day, and some IRC regulars (not me) have lost over 100 BTC that way. No telling when something nasty will add an additional flavor of nastyness.
1139 2014-01-15 10:29:05 <TD> ugh
1140 2014-01-15 10:29:11 <TD> chrome, people!
1141 2014-01-15 10:29:19 <TD> sandboxes within sandboxes. it's the only way to go
1142 2014-01-15 10:30:27 <Eagle[TM]> gmaxwell: on Linux? wow
1143 2014-01-15 10:30:29 <gmaxwell> I believe the people hit have been in IE, so — well.. there you go. In any case, if you're going to load known malicious websites best to do it on a sandboxed _machine_, certantly not one with access to lots of coin. :)
1144 2014-01-15 10:30:38 <Eagle[TM]> ok IE :)
1145 2014-01-15 10:30:38 <TD> ah
1146 2014-01-15 10:30:44 <TD> my statement stands ...
1147 2014-01-15 10:30:48 <gmaxwell> Eagle[TM]: no on windows, I dunno anyone hit on linux, though the attack payload works on linux/win/macosx.
1148 2014-01-15 10:30:57 <TD> Eagle[TM]: technically some java exploits can work on all platforms. write once run anywhere, right?
1149 2014-01-15 10:31:10 <gmaxwell> I don't know if the attack vector works outside of windows though.
1150 2014-01-15 10:31:15 <TD> though chrome disabled applets a long time ago
1151 2014-01-15 10:31:22 <TD> firefox requires you to explicitly activate them
1152 2014-01-15 10:31:22 <Eagle[TM]> yea i'm glad firefox disables java by default now
1153 2014-01-15 10:31:25 <gmaxwell> Right. Thus IE.
1154 2014-01-15 10:31:25 <TD> so ..... i guess that's why it can hit IE
1155 2014-01-15 10:31:46 <Eagle[TM]> gmaxwell: Thx for the heads-up!
1156 2014-01-15 10:31:55 <gmaxwell> well plus, the web has made us all click monkies, if you haven't clicked on something and regretted it.. I think you're not paying attention. :P
1157 2014-01-15 10:35:53 <Arnavion> Latest Java has atleast one fix which is specific to Gnome on Linux
1158 2014-01-15 10:36:22 <Arnavion> And most others are applets
1159 2014-01-15 10:36:25 <TD> haha, alt coin innovation: https://github.com/sidhujag/devcoin-android/commit/119b0c5ec4595d1d2fbe5dc9dda7aed4c8b85a92
1160 2014-01-15 10:36:32 <Arnavion> so not really IE-specific
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1214 2014-01-15 12:05:57 <sipa> ;;blocks
1215 2014-01-15 12:05:58 <gribble> 280614
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1235 2014-01-15 12:28:03 <fanquake> ;;tslb
1236 2014-01-15 12:28:08 <gribble> Time since last block: 10 minutes and 47 seconds
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1242 2014-01-15 12:38:20 <mrkent> is there a guide on best practice of securing a hot wallet for a bitcoin web app?
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1247 2014-01-15 12:41:19 <shamoon> in a bitcoin transaction, is the "hex" field guaranteed to be unique?
1248 2014-01-15 12:41:41 <sipa> what is the 'hex' field?
1249 2014-01-15 12:41:43 dredredre has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1251 2014-01-15 12:45:29 <shamoon> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/92a518f60f89fb1e6a55
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1253 2014-01-15 12:48:27 <shamoon> i assume that hex is the raw transaction
1254 2014-01-15 12:48:29 <shamoon> not decoded
1255 2014-01-15 12:48:32 <shamoon> and is guaranteed to be unique?
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1258 2014-01-15 12:49:41 <sipa> yes, that's the entire serialized transaction, encoded as a hex string
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1260 2014-01-15 12:50:24 <sipa> and within a bitcoin blockchain they are certainly unique
1261 2014-01-15 12:51:56 <sipa> a transaction may occur in several branches though
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1296 2014-01-15 13:43:40 <warren> wumpus: RHEL and Fedora openssl lacks secp256k1.  That means the new gitian binary can't work there and users can't build bitcoin from source without replacing their system openssl.  Totally not cool.
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1298 2014-01-15 13:44:37 <sipa> you relied on statically-linked openssl for that before?
1299 2014-01-15 13:44:58 <warren> sipa: yes, previous gitian builds have static openssl
1300 2014-01-15 13:45:26 <sipa> ic
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1342 2014-01-15 14:50:41 <EasyAt> a transaction may occur in several branches though <-- what do you mean by this?
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1344 2014-01-15 14:53:06 <stonecoldpat> Im guessing your referrign to the block chain
1345 2014-01-15 14:53:09 <stonecoldpat> if you are...
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1347 2014-01-15 14:55:48 <stonecoldpat> Easyat: The basic idea is that miners will listen for transactions, and then build a new 'block' with these transactions. This block gets broadcasted to the network (everybody) and they will either accept or reject this block. (To create a block involves solving a puzzle). Now it may take approximately 10 minutes for a block to be created / accepted - but more than one block can be created
1348 2014-01-15 14:55:48 <stonecoldpat> at a time (as we have different pool of miners). So that means we have competing blocks as only one block can be accepted. So this can lead to a 'branch' / 'fork' where lets say half the community accept one block, and half the community accept a competing block.
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1350 2014-01-15 14:56:13 <stonecoldpat> This means that your transaction, that is part of a block (a bit like its DNA) may be in more than one block / branch
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1352 2014-01-15 14:57:23 <stonecoldpat> these 'branches' eventually get resolved. - remember the block chain is just -> a linked list of blocks (a bit like a metal chain) - so the longest chain of blocks gets accepted by the community
1353 2014-01-15 14:57:28 <stonecoldpat> and the branches get forgotten about
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1357 2014-01-15 14:58:14 <stonecoldpat> http://cdn.blog.malwarebytes.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/block-chain.png
1358 2014-01-15 14:58:18 <stonecoldpat> is a very nice picture to describe it
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1365 2014-01-15 15:03:22 <EasyAt> stonecoldpat: So, by branches he means forks?
1366 2014-01-15 15:03:33 <EasyAt> branches makes me thing of branches of a merkle tree
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1376 2014-01-15 15:14:26 <stonecoldpat> EasyAt: If your referring to what sipa was talking about, i assume so
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1378 2014-01-15 15:14:58 <sipa> EasyAt: yes, forks
1379 2014-01-15 15:15:17 <EasyAt> sipa: ah
1380 2014-01-15 15:15:41 <sipa> though i use 'fork' to refer to the action of splitting, and branches what results from the split
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1383 2014-01-15 15:17:59 <EasyAt> roger, thank you for the clarification
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1413 2014-01-15 15:55:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|15:34:34 <warren> sipa: yes, previous gitian builds have static openssl
1414 2014-01-15 15:55:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wait, did gitian get switched to dynamic linking?
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1419 2014-01-15 15:57:24 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: with autotools
1420 2014-01-15 15:57:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh?
1421 2014-01-15 15:58:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I didn't know I had OpenSSL installed on my Windows computer...
1422 2014-01-15 15:58:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Nor any of the other libs, for that matter)
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1425 2014-01-15 16:00:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why did git master a week or two ago not complain about not having the libraries on my computer?
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1430 2014-01-15 16:03:39 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: we're talking about the linux builds
1431 2014-01-15 16:03:42 <sipa> windows is very different
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1488 2014-01-15 17:03:43 <neozonz> Is there anyway to check if my bitcoind has been banned?
1489 2014-01-15 17:03:49 <neozonz> or peers have banned it?
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1497 2014-01-15 17:06:19 <blazon> neozonz i think it is reported in debug.log
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1500 2014-01-15 17:06:35 <neozonz> any idea what the message may look like?
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1502 2014-01-15 17:06:55 <blazon> TCP error, that isnt a timeout
1503 2014-01-15 17:07:01 <blazon> maybe TCP unautorized
1504 2014-01-15 17:07:02 <blazon> or somthing
1505 2014-01-15 17:07:13 <neozonz> cool thx
1506 2014-01-15 17:07:15 <blazon> ive never been banned or thought i was so im kinda guessing
1507 2014-01-15 17:07:20 <blazon> just as an FYI
1508 2014-01-15 17:07:42 <blazon> you could play on a test net
1509 2014-01-15 17:07:45 <blazon> and ban a peer
1510 2014-01-15 17:07:47 <brisque> chances are you'll never be banned by a peer unless you're doing something silly, or you're running the 0.8.x version that sends empty transactions.
1511 2014-01-15 17:08:47 t7 has joined
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1513 2014-01-15 17:09:34 <neozonz> ah i see
1514 2014-01-15 17:09:45 brson has joined
1515 2014-01-15 17:09:52 <neozonz> i thought maybe if u call getwork every second you might get banned or something
1516 2014-01-15 17:10:20 <Luke-Jr> getwork isn't even a p2p thing
1517 2014-01-15 17:10:26 <Luke-Jr> RPC never bans
1518 2014-01-15 17:10:39 <neozonz> ah, cool didn't know that
1519 2014-01-15 17:10:57 <brisque> if other people are connecting to your RPC and making too many requests, you've probably got other problems
1520 2014-01-15 17:11:28 <Luke-Jr> if RPC is exposed to the internet, you're probably cracked :p
1521 2014-01-15 17:11:32 <neozonz> Luke-Jr:  you mind assisting me with my paranoia? I've got about 840% shares for a block and still no block... this is either real bad luck or something is wrong with back end...
1522 2014-01-15 17:11:55 <Luke-Jr> neozonz: that's why Eloipool has block proposal
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1526 2014-01-15 17:12:09 <neozonz> block proposal?
1527 2014-01-15 17:13:10 <neozonz> Anyway I can check bitcoind for stratum connections?
1528 2014-01-15 17:13:29 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind doesn't support stratum
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1530 2014-01-15 17:14:34 <neozonz> let me rephrase, anyway I can check bitcoind to ensure stratum-mining is connected to bitcoind?
1531 2014-01-15 17:16:31 <Ry4an> netstat ? :)
1532 2014-01-15 17:17:19 <brisque> neozonz: you'd be seeing new blocks roll by in the connected miner for starters
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1534 2014-01-15 17:20:19 <neozonz> yeah i see that...
1535 2014-01-15 17:20:27 <neozonz> guess it's just very very bad luck
1536 2014-01-15 17:20:28 <neozonz> :(
1537 2014-01-15 17:22:43 <rfree> what was the option to list blocks generated by me (or all transactions) with blok number (height)?
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1544 2014-01-15 17:35:22 <Matt_von_Mises> Is there any reason for a Satoshi client (0.8.6) to send literally hundreds of inv messages in a very short space of time?
1545 2014-01-15 17:35:43 <Matt_von_Mises> That's the behaviour I just witnessed. Pretty sure there was nothing wrong with my code.
1546 2014-01-15 17:36:10 <sipa> when it receives a ton of transactions, and relays them
1547 2014-01-15 17:36:51 <ahmed_bodi> Luke-Jr: is there any big differences between bfgminer and cgminer code?
1548 2014-01-15 17:36:57 <ahmed_bodi> *api code
1549 2014-01-15 17:37:14 <Luke-Jr>   297 files changed, 65210 insertions(+), 62646 deletions(-)
1550 2014-01-15 17:37:16 <Luke-Jr> define api code
1551 2014-01-15 17:37:56 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: That's a lot of transactions being relayed. It's pretty normal for that to happen though?
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1553 2014-01-15 17:38:14 <ahmed_bodi> Luke-Jr: yeah realised it came out wrong
1554 2014-01-15 17:38:27 <ahmed_bodi> basically im making an app to connect to cgminer and hopefully bfgminer
1555 2014-01-15 17:38:36 <ahmed_bodi> get asic/gpu details and then relay it to the main site
1556 2014-01-15 17:38:59 <ahmed_bodi> so wondering if the code im currently using for cgminer will work fine for bfgminer
1557 2014-01-15 17:39:10 <Luke-Jr> ahmed_bodi: it should, but it won't get bfgminer's extended info
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1560 2014-01-15 17:40:34 <ahmed_bodi> is there anything of use in bfgminers extended info?
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1562 2014-01-15 17:41:49 <Luke-Jr> ahmed_bodi: lots
1563 2014-01-15 17:41:58 <Luke-Jr> ahmed_bodi: BFGMiner provides per-chip information for most newer devices
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1565 2014-01-15 17:42:33 <ahmed_bodi> ahh
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1567 2014-01-15 17:43:06 <ahmed_bodi> then i guess ill have to add it :)
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1580 2014-01-15 18:01:47 <ahmed_bodi> is anyone here good with vb.net?
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1583 2014-01-15 18:05:32 <dmanderson> ahmed_bodi whats up with vb.net?
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1587 2014-01-15 18:15:05 <rfree> sipa: is no such option implemented? < rfree> what was the option to list blocks generated by me (or all transactions) with blok number (height)?
1588 2014-01-15 18:15:05 <rfree> perhaps I should code it, seems usable for analyzing your generation
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1612 2014-01-15 18:37:37 <ahmed_bodi> dmanderson:
1613 2014-01-15 18:37:49 <ahmed_bodi> im trying to parse the list of devices from cgminer//bfgminer
1614 2014-01-15 18:37:51 <ahmed_bodi> in vb.net
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1616 2014-01-15 18:39:01 <ahmed_bodi> http://pastebin.com/CetSg9h4
1617 2014-01-15 18:39:10 <ahmed_bodi> as an example of the response
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1626 2014-01-15 18:41:49 <wallet42> so stealth addresses are base58_check encoded compressed pubkeys? whats the version byte?
1627 2014-01-15 18:41:52 <Luke-Jr> ahmed_bodi: that doesn't look right
1628 2014-01-15 18:42:40 <ahmed_bodi> Luke-Jr: thats what i get directly from vb.net
1629 2014-01-15 18:42:58 <Luke-Jr> no idea why someone would use .NET garbage
1630 2014-01-15 18:43:27 <ahmed_bodi> http://pastebin.com/88tbb822
1631 2014-01-15 18:43:38 <ahmed_bodi> Luke-Jr: because its what i prefer
1632 2014-01-15 18:44:03 <teward> i could probably write a C++ parser to parse the output, throw it into arrays, but not with VB.NET
1633 2014-01-15 18:44:09 <teward> VB.NET is horrible for text operations
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1639 2014-01-15 18:50:06 <HaltingState> sipa, are private keys points on the curve or an exponent of the base point?
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1642 2014-01-15 18:51:37 <HaltingState> oh; private keys are exponents and public keys are points on a curve
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1648 2014-01-15 19:15:46 <sipa> HaltingState: correct
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1651 2014-01-15 19:17:09 <HaltingState> sipa, what is encryption? multiplying value by pubblic key?
1652 2014-01-15 19:17:28 <sipa> ECDSA cannot do encryption
1653 2014-01-15 19:17:32 <sipa> it's a signing-only algorithm
1654 2014-01-15 19:17:34 <HaltingState> i mean the value
1655 2014-01-15 19:17:48 <sipa> i have no idea what you're asking
1656 2014-01-15 19:17:51 <HaltingState> you want to do shared secret; or send someone value so you can use it as AES key
1657 2014-01-15 19:18:00 <HaltingState> that requires the private key to recover
1658 2014-01-15 19:18:07 <sipa> you don't use ECDSA for that
1659 2014-01-15 19:18:27 <sipa> you typically just do ECDH do establish a shared secret
1660 2014-01-15 19:18:49 <HaltingState> i have a curve, a base point, a private key and a public key; what do i do to send a value to someone if i know their public key
1661 2014-01-15 19:19:11 <sipa> so you don't have the private key :D
1662 2014-01-15 19:19:17 <sipa> ok, what you do is this
1663 2014-01-15 19:19:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, there's a linux gitian deps now?
1664 2014-01-15 19:19:36 <sipa> you _invent_ an ephemeral private key, which you'll only use for this one message
1665 2014-01-15 19:19:57 <sipa> call it e, with associated public key E = e*G (G is the base point)
1666 2014-01-15 19:20:04 <sipa> you also know P, the receiver's public key
1667 2014-01-15 19:20:24 <sipa> you compute S = e*P
1668 2014-01-15 19:20:38 <sipa> then take the hash of S, H(S)
1669 2014-01-15 19:20:44 <sipa> then encrypt the message using that hash
1670 2014-01-15 19:20:55 <sipa> AESEncrypt(m, key=H(S))
1671 2014-01-15 19:21:14 <sipa> and what you send is the associated public key of the ephemeral private key, plus that encrypted message
1672 2014-01-15 19:21:31 <sipa> so you send (E, AESEncrypt(m, key=H(S)))
1673 2014-01-15 19:22:17 <sipa> the other party receives E, computes p (their private key) times E, p*E = p*e*G = e*p*G = e*P = S
1674 2014-01-15 19:22:32 <sipa> so they can also compute the hash of it, and use it as key to decrypt the message
1675 2014-01-15 19:22:52 <sipa> AESDecrypt(m, key=H(S))
1676 2014-01-15 19:23:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|How come the Linux gitian deps use gzipped tarballs while the win32 gitian deps use zips?
1677 2014-01-15 19:23:45 <HaltingState> "E = e*G" if G is the base point and E is public key and e is private key; "E = e*G" isnt this supposed to be "base point to power of private key"?
1678 2014-01-15 19:23:51 <shesek> ah, that's interesting. could be useful for something I'm working on
1679 2014-01-15 19:24:11 <sipa> HaltingState: yes, that's what it is
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1682 2014-01-15 19:24:16 <shesek> was going to have a separate keypair for message encryption, but something like that could work too
1683 2014-01-15 19:24:37 <sipa> HaltingState: though it's more common to call the Ec group operation addition instead of multiplication
1684 2014-01-15 19:24:52 <sipa> HaltingState: so you multiply the private key with the base point, rather than exponentiate
1685 2014-01-15 19:24:53 <HaltingState> e*G looks like the group operation, not exponention, lol
1686 2014-01-15 19:25:09 <HaltingState> ah multiplication
1687 2014-01-15 19:25:11 <sipa> yeah, mathematicians use one, cryptographers use the other
1688 2014-01-15 19:25:14 <HaltingState> and the base operation is addition; k
1689 2014-01-15 19:25:17 <sipa> it's just notation
1690 2014-01-15 19:25:24 <sipa> you add points together, or double them
1691 2014-01-15 19:25:28 <sipa> and multiple them with integers
1692 2014-01-15 19:25:56 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1693 2014-01-15 19:26:15 <gmaxwell> and multiplying them with integers is just achieved (logically) via successive doubling and addition.
1694 2014-01-15 19:26:36 <HaltingState> exponential by squaring; i remember that part
1695 2014-01-15 19:26:40 <sipa> yeah, it's using what is commonly called and exponentiation algorithm :D
1696 2014-01-15 19:26:42 <HaltingState> *exponention by squaring
1697 2014-01-15 19:27:15 <sipa> the reason for the confusion is of course that this is a group, and not a field, so there is only one operation
1698 2014-01-15 19:27:25 <sipa> and some chose to call it addition and others chose multiplication
1699 2014-01-15 19:28:21 <HaltingState> * is typically the group operation, which is confusing
1700 2014-01-15 19:28:39 <sipa> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve_point_multiplication#Point_addition
1701 2014-01-15 19:28:52 <sipa> wikipedia is of course right
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1707 2014-01-15 19:32:10 <HaltingState> sipa, everyone who knows the public key for person you are sending to can compute S = e*P, so why would you AES with H(S)
1708 2014-01-15 19:32:25 <sipa> HaltingState: you don't reveal e
1709 2014-01-15 19:32:30 <sipa> you only reveal E
1710 2014-01-15 19:32:32 <HaltingState> oh e is not the base point
1711 2014-01-15 19:32:38 <sipa> G is the base point
1712 2014-01-15 19:32:45 <sipa> e is the ephemeral private key
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1714 2014-01-15 19:35:42 <HaltingState> this notation muddles what is an integer exponent and what is a point in the curve; the it switches from treating G as an int and treating G as a point on curve
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1716 2014-01-15 19:36:07 <HaltingState> i was thinking capitalization has something to do with point vs int, but apparently they are interchangeable
1717 2014-01-15 19:36:27 <sipa> no, i always use small characters for scalars and large ones for points
1718 2014-01-15 19:37:08 <HaltingState> e*G is valid because each point can be converted into into int?
1719 2014-01-15 19:37:08 <sipa> G = base point
1720 2014-01-15 19:37:28 <sipa> no point is being converted to an int
1721 2014-01-15 19:37:35 <sipa> e is a scalar and G is a point
1722 2014-01-15 19:37:39 <sipa> the result is a point
1723 2014-01-15 19:37:42 <HaltingState> you are raising e to G right?
1724 2014-01-15 19:38:10 <HaltingState> no, G to e?  G^e is written e*
1725 2014-01-15 19:38:14 <HaltingState> no, G to e?  G^e is written e*G?
1726 2014-01-15 19:38:36 <sipa> multiplication is commutative :D
1727 2014-01-15 19:38:42 <sipa> e*G = G*e
1728 2014-01-15 19:38:46 <HaltingState> i thought that was exponention not multiplication
1729 2014-01-15 19:38:51 <sipa> sigh
1730 2014-01-15 19:38:57 <gmaxwell> It's not either. It is the group operation.
1731 2014-01-15 19:39:02 <sipa> no, it's not
1732 2014-01-15 19:39:37 <sipa> what you insist on calling exponentiation is written using * here
1733 2014-01-15 19:39:54 <sipa> what you call the group operation is +, but you don't use that here
1734 2014-01-15 19:40:09 <gmaxwell> There is only one group operation (addition). G*e is just G+G+G+G+G+G+G+G+...
1735 2014-01-15 19:40:17 <sipa> indeed
1736 2014-01-15 19:40:18 <wallet42> sipa: you switched from multiplication to addidtion in bip 32
1737 2014-01-15 19:40:29 <sipa> wallet42: yes
1738 2014-01-15 19:40:31 <HaltingState> the * is used to refer to "elliptic curve point multiplication by a scalar" which is exponention, but here its being used to refer to the curve group operation?
1739 2014-01-15 19:40:37 <wallet42> is this a security or performance related switch?
1740 2014-01-15 19:40:53 <sipa> HaltingState: no, i exclusively use * to mean elliptic curve point multiplication by a scalar
1741 2014-01-15 19:41:07 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: please stop saying "which is exponention"   "elliptic curve point multiplication by a scalar" is "elliptic curve point multiplication by a scalar".
1742 2014-01-15 19:41:13 <sipa> (or multiplication between two scalars)
1743 2014-01-15 19:41:37 <gmaxwell> You can write it as multiplication or as exponentiation, and different papers use different conventions.
1744 2014-01-15 19:42:09 <sipa> HaltingState: do you want me to repeat the algorithm in multiplicative notation>
1745 2014-01-15 19:42:18 <HaltingState> yes
1746 2014-01-15 19:42:26 <sipa> ok, the base point is G
1747 2014-01-15 19:42:27 <wallet42> exponentiation comes probably from RSA since there you use the exponentiation group function which is the same as in IN
1748 2014-01-15 19:42:43 <wallet42> oh… not quite
1749 2014-01-15 19:42:44 <sipa> the receiver's key is p (with associated public key P)
1750 2014-01-15 19:42:46 <wallet42> since you are in Z
1751 2014-01-15 19:42:49 <gmaxwell> But it's something wholly comprised out of the group operation, and is only related to conventional multiplication or exponentiation in terms of the algebraic laws you can use to reasonable it.
1752 2014-01-15 19:43:00 <wallet42> Zn
1753 2014-01-15 19:43:04 <sipa> the ephemeral key is e (with associated public key E)
1754 2014-01-15 19:43:19 <sipa> you compute S = P^e
1755 2014-01-15 19:43:29 <sipa> take the hash, and use it as AES encryption key
1756 2014-01-15 19:43:44 <sipa> and then send the encrypted message, plus E (which is G^e)
1757 2014-01-15 19:43:59 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, its algebraic exponential in the sense of "discrete logarithm" which is just logarithm problem in a group
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1759 2014-01-15 19:44:26 <wallet42> i have a question about this stealth thing. is the stealth address just a b58check encoded pubkey?
1760 2014-01-15 19:44:26 <sipa> the receiver takes E, and computes E^p = (G^e)^p = G^(e*p) = G^(p*e) = (G^p)^e = P^e = S
1761 2014-01-15 19:44:46 <sipa> and can decrypt using H(S) as AES key
1762 2014-01-15 19:45:11 <wallet42> how much data is allowed after OP_DROP?
1763 2014-01-15 19:45:19 <wallet42> uh… op_return
1764 2014-01-15 19:45:29 <sipa> HaltingState: clear?
1765 2014-01-15 19:46:01 <HaltingState> yes; thx, i am implement an anon messaging service that uses bitcoin address /pubkeys for encryption and working through this; helps alot
1766 2014-01-15 19:46:43 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: why would you do that?
1767 2014-01-15 19:47:14 <wallet42> you could put the reference (field on wire transfer form) in that and you use DH + AES encryption of the message so only sender and reciever can read it
1768 2014-01-15 19:47:17 <HaltingState> so you can send receipts
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1770 2014-01-15 19:48:14 <sipa> HaltingState: you're relying on the fact that the sender is the one who controls the private key
1771 2014-01-15 19:48:18 <sipa> which is not generally true
1772 2014-01-15 19:48:39 <HaltingState> you want to buy something, you give them address, they look up pub key, they contact your client send you signed receipt "20 bitcoin for XYZ" and give you list of address (say 10 addresses") and you send the coins to those addresses. You have signed receipt and it is more private because you are not using single output address
1773 2014-01-15 19:49:51 <HaltingState> also for reoccuring payments like VPS server invoices
1774 2014-01-15 19:50:05 <sipa> i think you should solve this at the payment protocol level
1775 2014-01-15 19:50:10 <sipa> not the bitcoin transaction level
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1777 2014-01-15 19:50:21 <sipa> as these are messages between entities interacting, not keys
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1783 2014-01-15 19:51:21 <HaltingState> this is not bitcoin transaction level, its not in the block chain; the problem is "send message to address X that only person with privatekey for X can read"
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1785 2014-01-15 19:51:48 <sipa> right, my argument is that you shouldn't be using bitcoin identities for this
1786 2014-01-15 19:51:50 <HaltingState> and it establishes a session key and there is now a two-way communication channel between addresses and its off block chain
1787 2014-01-15 19:51:56 <sipa> as it for example doesn't work for shared wallets
1788 2014-01-15 19:52:19 <gmaxwell> Also forces people to disclose pubkeys prior to spending, which is unfortunate.
1789 2014-01-15 19:52:33 <HaltingState> the communication address is not supposed to be used for bitcoin
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1791 2014-01-15 19:52:57 <HaltingState> you contact communication address to get payment addresses and the pubkey is disclosed but the person never signs anything with it
1792 2014-01-15 19:53:53 <HaltingState> you only guarantee that person with the private key for that public key is only one who can recover the shared secret needed for initiating the session and then there is a session key, but no signatures with the published pubkey are ever published
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1794 2014-01-15 19:54:15 <sipa> so you're really just reusing bitcoin crypto for something unrelated
1795 2014-01-15 19:54:25 <HaltingState> yes, have nothing to do with bitcoin
1796 2014-01-15 19:54:31 <sipa> ok
1797 2014-01-15 19:54:44 <HaltingState> its just communication/messaging layer but it could have applications for bitcoin wallets in future if someone built something on top of it
1798 2014-01-15 19:54:56 <sipa> well that's what the payment protocol already does, using SSL
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1800 2014-01-15 19:55:18 <sipa> you could get bitcoin identities into its supported signature systems
1801 2014-01-15 19:56:32 <HaltingState> the payment protocol is very specialized and requires SSL and revealing your IP and this can be used for asynchronous message delivery; so you dont have to be online and will just get messages next time you open wallet
1802 2014-01-15 19:57:09 <sipa> payment protocol works also offline
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1808 2014-01-15 20:03:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I see that the gitian build process now has separated deps for Linux as well
1809 2014-01-15 20:04:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is there a reason that the Linux deps are in a gzipped tarball while the (assorted) win32 deps are in zips?
1810 2014-01-15 20:04:15 <lechuga__> petertodd: ping
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1872 2014-01-15 21:24:23 <disident> Hello if I've forked the block chain why my daemon is download the block chain ? getblocktemplate {}
1873 2014-01-15 21:24:24 <disident> error: {"code":-10,"message":"Testcoin is downloading blocks..."}
1874 2014-01-15 21:24:42 <defrostr> when you send a bitcoin, i am trying to find out who generates the transaction id?
1875 2014-01-15 21:25:40 <jaakkos> defrostr: the sender of the transaction generates it
1876 2014-01-15 21:25:49 <jaakkos> by hashing the transaction's contents
1877 2014-01-15 21:26:09 <defrostr> ah ok, i was just wondering if it was something in a cloud generating it
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1903 2014-01-15 21:43:36 <Luke-Jr> disident: this is #bitcoin-dev, not #scamcoin-dev
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2058 2014-01-15 23:36:11 <Snowleaksange> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/7253/signing-bitcoin-transactions
2059 2014-01-15 23:36:25 Guest38877 is now known as WKNiGHT_
2060 2014-01-15 23:36:36 <Snowleaksange> " I couldn't find a document indicating the whole transaction is signed."  - same.  any link?
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2069 2014-01-15 23:39:36 <Snowleaksange> hm doesnt seem to bein https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
2070 2014-01-15 23:39:47 <Snowleaksange> i guess it isnt actually documented, just cites source code?
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2073 2014-01-15 23:45:31 <EasyAt> Are you looking for https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIG
2074 2014-01-15 23:47:56 <EasyAt> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script#Standard_Transaction_to_Bitcoin_address_.28pay-to-pubkey-hash.29
2075 2014-01-15 23:48:00 <EasyAt> Might help
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