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   5 2014-01-17 00:01:53 <nickler> \whois warren
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   9 2014-01-17 00:02:22 <nickler> nevermind, still learning
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  57 2014-01-17 01:09:24 <Anaru> Laptop!~anaru_lap@99-146-72-119.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net|Hey guys, newbie here I have a few questions
  58 2014-01-17 01:09:57 <Anaru> Laptop!~anaru_lap@99-146-72-119.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net|I have two things I need to do
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  60 2014-01-17 01:11:12 <Anaru> Laptop!~anaru_lap@99-146-72-119.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net|First thing I'm trying to do is split an incoming payment to one address to two different addresses, so if I sent 1 BTC to address A, it'll then send .5 BTC to addresses B and C
  61 2014-01-17 01:13:11 <Anaru> Laptop!~anaru_lap@99-146-72-119.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net|Second thing I'm trying to do is automate an account setup for my website after a bitcoin payment has been recieved
  62 2014-01-17 01:13:16 <lianj> .49991 to b and c you mean
  63 2014-01-17 01:13:24 <Anaru> Laptop!~anaru_lap@99-146-72-119.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net|yes
  64 2014-01-17 01:13:35 <lianj> eh not 1 at the end. sorry
  65 2014-01-17 01:14:09 <Anaru> Laptop!~anaru_lap@99-146-72-119.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net|Now for the first thing, I found an online site that does it, but it's very new (Jan. 12 of this year) and I'm not sure if I trust it
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  70 2014-01-17 01:15:24 <Anaru> Laptop!~anaru_lap@99-146-72-119.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net|Even though the payments I intend to take are very small (.01 btc)
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 316 2014-01-17 07:15:28 <CodeShark> opinions? https://github.com/CodeShark/bitcoin/compare/coinparams_new
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 328 2014-01-17 07:45:07 <swulf--> CodeShark: what's the goal? one codebase for all alt coins?
 329 2014-01-17 07:45:16 <CodeShark> yes
 330 2014-01-17 07:45:23 <CodeShark> or at least a good number of them
 331 2014-01-17 07:46:21 <swulf--> seems like a maintenence nightmare :)
 332 2014-01-17 07:46:54 <CodeShark> having to support a bunch of different codebases for different alts, all forked off of bitcoind at different points seems like a bigger nightmare :)
 333 2014-01-17 07:47:06 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
 334 2014-01-17 07:47:11 <swulf--> but that maintenence task is shared by all the individual coin maintainers
 335 2014-01-17 07:47:32 <Arnavion> And it acts to weed out the ones who don't know what they're getting into
 336 2014-01-17 07:47:39 <swulf--> there's that too
 337 2014-01-17 07:47:54 <CodeShark> there are a bunch who don't know what they're getting into :p
 338 2014-01-17 07:47:57 <CodeShark> dogecoin?
 339 2014-01-17 07:48:06 <CodeShark> I think we've already crossed that threshold
 340 2014-01-17 07:49:08 <swulf--> whoever maintains the official all-coins codebase, would have ultimate say on whether a new coin would be allowed or not?
 341 2014-01-17 07:49:27 <CodeShark> why's that?
 342 2014-01-17 07:49:41 <swulf--> why would they accept crapcoin.conf into the codebase?
 343 2014-01-17 07:49:53 <swulf--> along with my sha796 hashing method
 344 2014-01-17 07:49:56 <CodeShark> the parameters are determined at runtime - and the plan is to support compiletime switches for linking in specific modules (i.e. hash functions)
 345 2014-01-17 07:50:48 <CodeShark> sure, the configurability would be constrained to the set of exposed parameters and module types
 346 2014-01-17 07:51:11 <CodeShark> but a good portion of the protocol is essentially fixed (i.e. core message structures)
 347 2014-01-17 07:51:33 <swulf--> doesn't namecoin make some significant reinterpretations on scripts?
 348 2014-01-17 07:51:47 <CodeShark> the script interpreter could also be linked in as a module
 349 2014-01-17 07:51:56 <wumpus> swulf--: we won't accept altcoin-specific stuff in the codebase
 350 2014-01-17 07:52:11 <wumpus> swulf--: otherwise you indeed get discussions 'ohh why his coin and not mine??!!' 
 351 2014-01-17 07:52:16 <swulf--> right
 352 2014-01-17 07:52:37 <CodeShark> yeah, agreed 100% - but none of this needs to be altcoin-specific
 353 2014-01-17 07:52:38 <wumpus> bitcoin is bitcoin, and we'd like to reduce the amount of code in bitcoin/bitcoin not blow it up
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 358 2014-01-17 07:55:10 <CodeShark> the way I see it we could have a peer manager layer that does peer discovery, manages connections to peers, and queues up messages which is agnostic to script contents and configurable to use specific network parameters and hash functions
 359 2014-01-17 07:55:46 <CodeShark> then atop this we have a verification engine that checks messages and updates chainstate
 360 2014-01-17 07:55:59 <CodeShark> and can also send messages back to the peer manager for relay
 361 2014-01-17 07:56:29 <wumpus> CodeShark: see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3465
 362 2014-01-17 07:56:55 Denim-jdev has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 363 2014-01-17 07:57:03 <CodeShark> yes, sipa and I have talked about this in the past quite a bit
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 365 2014-01-17 07:57:52 mappum_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 366 2014-01-17 07:58:37 <wumpus> but personally I don't think it makes sense to do too much work to support altcoins
 367 2014-01-17 07:58:57 benten has joined
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 369 2014-01-17 07:59:24 <CodeShark> well, even considering how now we have two separate run modes - mainnet and testnet
 370 2014-01-17 07:59:32 <wumpus> it's already easy enough to make a scamcoin, why would we make maintenance easier for them
 371 2014-01-17 07:59:38 <CodeShark> could be subsumed into a single run mode just with different runtime configuration
 372 2014-01-17 08:00:05 <wumpus> yes moving chain specific parameters to CChainParams makes sense, sure
 373 2014-01-17 08:00:26 <CodeShark> but even having two separate instances of the params for main and test seems superfluous
 374 2014-01-17 08:00:27 <wumpus> but making it possible to configure the network using a configuration file, I don't know
 375 2014-01-17 08:00:44 <CodeShark> would be better to just have two datadirs, each with its own config file
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 378 2014-01-17 08:01:40 <CodeShark> we could even experiment with protocol rules to get empirical data
 379 2014-01-17 08:01:59 <CodeShark> scamcoins are not the only application of this stuff :)
 380 2014-01-17 08:02:18 <wumpus> non-scamcoins are going to involve large changes to the codebase anyway
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 382 2014-01-17 08:02:25 <wumpus> so can't be done with this generic approach
 383 2014-01-17 08:02:34 <CodeShark> well, pretty soon we'll probably be moving over to something like ethereum anyhow
 384 2014-01-17 08:02:40 <wumpus> 'we'?
 385 2014-01-17 08:02:52 <CodeShark> well, the cryptocoin world
 386 2014-01-17 08:03:11 <CodeShark> in other words, protocols that can support bitcoin as a special case
 387 2014-01-17 08:03:30 <wumpus> I don't feel like having this discussion
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 391 2014-01-17 08:03:54 <CodeShark> call it whatevernet - sorry I mentioned one in particular
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 396 2014-01-17 08:04:58 <CodeShark> but perhaps this discussion is better for bitcoin-wizards :)
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 398 2014-01-17 08:05:36 <wumpus> more like #bitcoin if you want to argue that people are all going to move to an altcoin
 399 2014-01-17 08:05:59 <CodeShark> that wasn't the argument - we can separate the value of a coin from the underlying protocol
 400 2014-01-17 08:06:28 <CodeShark> we could still use bitcoins, but they could be encoded into a more general protocol's scripting language
 401 2014-01-17 08:07:09 <Arnavion> It sounds like architecture astronomy
 402 2014-01-17 08:07:49 <CodeShark> the more general protocol could also perhaps support greater security and much faster confirmation times
 403 2014-01-17 08:08:25 <wumpus> Arnavion: yes, it's very hard to do software engineering for 'generic' stuff where you have to take into account everything that everyone can ever do
 404 2014-01-17 08:08:25 <CodeShark> anyhow, I guess that topic is not for this channel
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 409 2014-01-17 08:10:07 <CodeShark> it'll take a lot of realworld experience with specific attempts, in an iterative process where each generation will build on the previous
 410 2014-01-17 08:10:22 <CodeShark> bitcoin is extremely significant for being the first
 411 2014-01-17 08:10:37 <wumpus> CodeShark: I agree that a more capable scripting language would be nice, certainly for all kinds of future experiments
 412 2014-01-17 08:11:49 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
 413 2014-01-17 08:14:04 <CodeShark> the two main limitations of bitcoin's script are: 1) it is not Turing complete, 2) it cannot access nor update state information outside the immediate transaction, and other than the CHECKSIG opcodes, even outside of the script itself.
 414 2014-01-17 08:15:27 <CodeShark> the next generation protocol will solve both these issues
 415 2014-01-17 08:16:04 <wumpus> it's not sure that these are issues, or part of what made bitcoin actually practical :)
 416 2014-01-17 08:16:38 <CodeShark> it made bitcoin practical in the sense that it restricted the domain and implementation complexity sufficiently so that it could actually get built and be demonstrated
 417 2014-01-17 08:16:56 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 418 2014-01-17 08:17:03 <wumpus> ...and still somehow understood  (although it's already difficult for a lot of people)
 419 2014-01-17 08:17:35 macboz has joined
 420 2014-01-17 08:18:10 <CodeShark> but we'll eventually reach a point where very few people if any will understand all the details at all levels of abstraction - much like we've reached in the development of computers
 421 2014-01-17 08:18:18 Grouver has joined
 422 2014-01-17 08:18:21 <CodeShark> the first computers were built by people who could grok the entirety of the system
 423 2014-01-17 08:18:42 <CodeShark> but today's computers are so complicated with so many layers, very few people even understand one of them well :p
 424 2014-01-17 08:18:45 <wumpus> possibly
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 427 2014-01-17 08:20:26 <wumpus> before we know it, we have malware scanners for your wallet, watch out for malicious transaction scripts, be sure to consult with your local cryptologist first
 428 2014-01-17 08:20:34 <wumpus> :D
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 430 2014-01-17 08:20:51 <CodeShark> I think that's inevitable - the information arms race cannot be stopped
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 432 2014-01-17 08:21:28 <wumpus> hey, the nuclear arms race eventually stopped
 433 2014-01-17 08:21:29 <CodeShark> a big price we pay for generally programmable computers is that they CAN be attacked by malware
 434 2014-01-17 08:22:52 <CodeShark> the only reason the nuclear arms race stopped is because few applications beyond strategic deterrent could be found that don't involve killing a bunch of people
 435 2014-01-17 08:22:54 <wumpus> right, which is why it can make sense in some scenarios to have a limited DSL instead of a full, turing complete language
 436 2014-01-17 08:24:20 <CodeShark> a lot more research will be going into this in the next several years
 437 2014-01-17 08:24:50 <CodeShark> technology doesn't take sides in ethical disputes, though
 438 2014-01-17 08:24:55 <CodeShark> it serves all sides equally
 439 2014-01-17 08:25:26 <wumpus> research is always good, but we should be careful on what we import into bitcoin, people have built a whole economy on top, they didn't sign in to make some battle of the scripts glitch contest :)
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 441 2014-01-17 08:26:05 <CodeShark> absolutely agreed, wumpus. It completely made sense to make bitcoin deliberately limited in some ways as we had no prior experience with this stuff
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 443 2014-01-17 08:26:44 <CodeShark> it's going to still take some time to fully understand all the implications
 444 2014-01-17 08:27:14 <CodeShark> and yes, some people are going to inevitably get hurt as part of the process
 445 2014-01-17 08:28:18 <wumpus> so it goes
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 449 2014-01-17 08:36:44 <Krellan> Ran bitcoin-qt recently.  Empty gray window "No wallet has been loaded".  Oh sh*t!  I thought.  Fortunately, it was just still loading at the time, and eventually loaded my wallet just fine.
 450 2014-01-17 08:37:01 <wumpus> Krellan: what version?
 451 2014-01-17 08:37:07 <Krellan> Good reminder to back up my wallet, though.
 452 2014-01-17 08:37:23 <wumpus> Krellan: that must be some old version of master?
 453 2014-01-17 08:37:32 <Krellan> It's from git recently, but not the latest
 454 2014-01-17 08:38:06 <wumpus> 0.8.x doen't have the "No wallet has been loaded" dialog, and master shouldn't do that anymore (there was some problem with warnings during init showing the UI prematurely)
 455 2014-01-17 08:38:55 <wumpus> but yes, backup your wallet
 456 2014-01-17 08:39:33 <Krellan> Git hash be5d37c59757ac3b6deae1e3b238dcb2168207cb
 457 2014-01-17 08:39:38 <Krellan> Yes, it's old.  22 November.
 458 2014-01-17 08:39:49 <Krellan> Good reminder to upgrade it as well.  Been remarkably stable, though.
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 461 2014-01-17 08:45:36 <wumpus> current master is also very stable, it has to be as we're nearing the 0.9 release
 462 2014-01-17 08:48:04 <Krellan> Nice.  Getting (gitting?) it now.  Surprised no 0.8.x release in a while.
 463 2014-01-17 08:48:34 spenvo has joined
 464 2014-01-17 08:50:13 <Krellan> question: is it becoming more possible to fully split bitcoin-qt (UI) from bitcoind (backend/network)?
 465 2014-01-17 08:50:49 <Krellan> i'd love to keep my bitcoind running all the time, then run bitcoin-qt merely to get a friendly UI against my local bitcoind,
 466 2014-01-17 08:51:01 hmsimha has joined
 467 2014-01-17 08:51:04 <Krellan> instead of having to shut down bitcoind, open bitcoin-qt, make my transaction, close bitcoin-qt, restart bitcoind.
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 474 2014-01-17 09:00:18 <wumpus> Krellan: as it looks now we're going to split bitcoin-qt+wallet from bitcoind (P2P, blockchain storage, verification) first
 475 2014-01-17 09:01:01 <wumpus> to isolate the wallet from the network process, and also so that it is possible to run multiple wallets against one blockchain daemon
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 481 2014-01-17 09:06:31 <wumpus> we only do 0.8.x (maintenenance) releases if there is a bug fix that needs to be backported, so it's good news if there isn't one in a while :)
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 485 2014-01-17 09:10:24 <Krellan> good to know - that's exactly the best idea i was hoping would be done - have bitcoin-qt own the wallet, and have bitcoind run the protocol/blockchain without needing wallet
 486 2014-01-17 09:11:46 <Krellan> point wallets at bitcoind only when you want to use them
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 511 2014-01-17 09:58:17 <epscy> so will bitcoin-qt be an SPV wallet by default?
 512 2014-01-17 09:58:30 <epscy> I'm interested to know how that will be handled
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 532 2014-01-17 10:35:22 <Emcy> epscy whats that? SPV mode finally?
 533 2014-01-17 10:35:40 <Emcy> is that discussed on the develist? I can just catch up if so
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 544 2014-01-17 10:40:35 <epscy> Emcy: i'm not sure how imminent it is
 545 2014-01-17 10:40:46 <epscy> they were discussing the split between node and wallet
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 547 2014-01-17 10:41:07 <epscy> which I assume means the wallet may need some sort of SPV mode
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 550 2014-01-17 10:41:17 <epscy> since it may not have a node to talk to
 551 2014-01-17 10:41:27 <Emcy> great, even less nodes
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 555 2014-01-17 10:42:28 <Emcy> other people should do the modular shit (and they are). Bitcoin core is supposed to be a complete reference implementation of what bitcoin was envisioned to be
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 557 2014-01-17 10:43:22 <Emcy> that is, everything that bitcoin needs to be bitcoin running right there on the local machine, in front of your face, where you have sole dominion over it
 558 2014-01-17 10:43:38 <niston> I'd suggest a service version of bitcoind for windows.
 559 2014-01-17 10:43:44 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 560 2014-01-17 10:43:44 <niston> that can run as NT service.
 561 2014-01-17 10:44:24 <robonerd> are either of you core devs?
 562 2014-01-17 10:45:46 <epscy> the split is inevitable i think
 563 2014-01-17 10:46:30 <epscy> wallets are juicy targets, making their code simpler by removing uneeded functionality (for wallet operations) seems logical
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 565 2014-01-17 10:51:33 <Emcy> service/daemon mode would be great.
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 567 2014-01-17 10:51:59 <Emcy> sint the wallet code already fairly self contained inside the code already?
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 571 2014-01-17 10:58:34 <epscy> i think so
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 573 2014-01-17 10:59:17 <epscy> but having the wallet separate means you can do things like run it on a separate machine and have different firewall rules for the wallet and the node
 574 2014-01-17 11:01:14 <Emcy> well that seems like a good idea
 575 2014-01-17 11:01:17 <sipa> yup
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 577 2014-01-17 11:01:36 <sipa> i think pretty much everyone is in favor of some degree of separation
 578 2014-01-17 11:01:45 <Emcy> but i know what will actually happen is that bitcoin core turns into electrum and the only nodes left are miners
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 583 2014-01-17 11:02:10 <sipa> whether that just means separating them into separate processes
 584 2014-01-17 11:02:15 <Emcy> can you imagine my face when i learned people run public p2pool nodes for others to mine against?
 585 2014-01-17 11:02:29 <sipa> it's inevitable
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 588 2014-01-17 11:02:58 <Emcy> why are we here then?
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 590 2014-01-17 11:03:26 <wumpus> bitcoin core will not 'turn into electrum', bitcoin core will always have the full node stuff as well, an electrum-like bitcoin-qt project will be a seperate project
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 592 2014-01-17 11:04:09 <Emcy> so this dev team is going to run another parellel project?
 593 2014-01-17 11:04:16 <wumpus> yes, the goal is to split things up
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 595 2014-01-17 11:04:35 <wumpus> bitcoin core will really be the core, then the wallets and such will be seperate projects
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 598 2014-01-17 11:05:09 <epscy> wumpus: i think he meant bitcoin core will turn into electrum server
 599 2014-01-17 11:05:09 <Emcy> so were giving up wholesale on trying to make people run enforcement nodes
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 601 2014-01-17 11:05:44 <wumpus> Emcy: just to not shove them through their throat in the name of running a wallet
 602 2014-01-17 11:05:47 <epscy> Emcy: it could go either way, if running a node becomes easier maybe more people will do it
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 604 2014-01-17 11:06:23 <wumpus> a node will just be that, a node, and a wallet is a wallet, no need to have one monolithic thing, although you can obviously ship them together to lure people into running both
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 606 2014-01-17 11:06:51 <Emcy> wumpus i agree its been far too hard till now. But frankly why shouldnt people run a node if theyre going to run a wallet? Everyone has all these goddamn i7s lying around doing nothing
 607 2014-01-17 11:07:14 <sipa> we can still ship them togethet
 608 2014-01-17 11:07:19 <Emcy> we already know what happens if the attitude becomes "someone else will take care of it". Look around the world to see the result of that.
 609 2014-01-17 11:07:22 <wumpus> yes they can still choose to do that
 610 2014-01-17 11:07:26 <wumpus> it can even be the default
 611 2014-01-17 11:07:38 <sipa> with the wallet starting a full node in the background
 612 2014-01-17 11:07:43 <Emcy> sipa ok thats better
 613 2014-01-17 11:07:59 <epscy> indeed, bear in mind that already bitcoind/qt isn't the recommended wallet on bitcoin.org
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 615 2014-01-17 11:08:26 <Emcy> epscy yes i dont like that, but i dont blame it either
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 617 2014-01-17 11:09:13 <epscy> Emcy: nodes that require 20GB+ and take hours (if not days) to sync are already only appealing to the more technically minded
 618 2014-01-17 11:09:23 <wumpus> for most people running a full node is asking a bit too much, it's more something for enthousiasts that want to support the network, unnecessarily making people end up with a full node only results in complaints
 619 2014-01-17 11:09:40 <Emcy> epscy those things dont matter if you can use it in the meantime
 620 2014-01-17 11:09:50 <Emcy> the problem is right now you cant use it until its finished
 621 2014-01-17 11:09:53 <epscy> it would be nice to see a push to get merchants to run a node, even if they use coinbase/bitpay for payments
 622 2014-01-17 11:10:01 <epscy> not sure how you would incentivise that though
 623 2014-01-17 11:10:04 <wumpus> yes, merchants and companies should certainly run nodes
 624 2014-01-17 11:11:27 <epscy> i don't see a problem with node and wallet shipped together, and the node on by default, i also don't see a problem with making it easy to turn the node off
 625 2014-01-17 11:11:52 <wumpus> but that's an advantage to splitting node and wallet: people can run a node because they want to help the network, completely aside from the wallet (which they may have at a web service, at bitpay, or whatever)
 626 2014-01-17 11:12:23 <wumpus> also without putting anything at risk, as their wallet is not on the server they host the node on
 627 2014-01-17 11:12:46 * epscy nods
 628 2014-01-17 11:12:54 <Emcy> epscy "easy" should mean "recompile the binary with NODEOFF flags" or something
 629 2014-01-17 11:13:02 <wumpus> you could even hand out free/cheap boxes that run a full node, without hardly any user intervention
 630 2014-01-17 11:13:11 <Emcy> if you stick a tickbox in there for it you can kiss the netowrk goodbye
 631 2014-01-17 11:13:12 <epscy> Emcy: nah i disagree
 632 2014-01-17 11:13:14 <wumpus> some simple web interface like routers...
 633 2014-01-17 11:13:22 <sipa> Emcy: oh come on
 634 2014-01-17 11:13:52 <wumpus> when there is no wallet or keys involved it all becomes alot less difficult and critical
 635 2014-01-17 11:13:54 <Emcy> sipa do you not think?
 636 2014-01-17 11:13:56 <sipa> Emcy: there are already 2 or 3 orders of magbitudes more b.i wallets than people running the reference client
 637 2014-01-17 11:14:06 <Emcy> true
 638 2014-01-17 11:14:28 <sipa> most of them wouldn't run a full nkde, even if it had the same wallet functionality and zerobresource usage
 639 2014-01-17 11:14:34 <Emcy> and thered probably be even less runnig a client-node if it was too easy to opt out
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 641 2014-01-17 11:14:49 <wumpus> it *IS* easy to opt out already
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 643 2014-01-17 11:14:56 <wumpus> nothing we can do about that
 644 2014-01-17 11:15:01 <wumpus> that train left a looong time ago
 645 2014-01-17 11:15:06 <epscy> yup
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 647 2014-01-17 11:15:11 <Emcy> a quick and dirty comparison would be if taxes were wholly voluntary......enjoy your failed state
 648 2014-01-17 11:15:24 <wumpus> sigh, I don't feel like that discussion
 649 2014-01-17 11:15:43 <Emcy> its just a metaphor
 650 2014-01-17 11:16:14 <wumpus> a very broken one, we can't hire a police force to force people to run full nodes :P
 651 2014-01-17 11:16:17 <epscy> Emcy: the problem is we don't have a way to incentivise running nodes, wallet/node separation is kinda irrelevant to that I think
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 653 2014-01-17 11:16:38 <epscy> Emcy: it's not a new problem either
 654 2014-01-17 11:17:08 <Emcy> bitcoin as envisioned was destined to fail then. It will morph into something else.
 655 2014-01-17 11:17:21 <epscy> possibly
 656 2014-01-17 11:17:56 <sipa> bitcoin as envisioned was everyone running a miner
 657 2014-01-17 11:18:07 <sipa> of course the ideal needs to adapt
 658 2014-01-17 11:18:19 <epscy> we should probably take this to #bitcoin if we want to continue, since it is likely more about politics and economics than anything else
 659 2014-01-17 11:18:59 <Emcy> think im finished now
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 661 2014-01-17 11:19:29 <epscy> sipa: do you think satoshi knew about pooled mining when he first authored the white paper?, do you think he would be surprised to see the state of mining today?
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 665 2014-01-17 11:22:39 <sipa> epscy: i doubt that he foresaw that
 666 2014-01-17 11:22:54 <epscy> interesting
 667 2014-01-17 11:23:51 <epscy> tbh even if mining becomes incredibly centralized, I still think bitcoin will have value because it's a global protocol, the barrier to entry will still be lower than the alternatives
 668 2014-01-17 11:24:16 <epscy> but i would be lying if i said it didn't concern me
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 671 2014-01-17 11:32:29 <Emcy> the only thing keeping miners in check is enforcement nodes
 672 2014-01-17 11:32:38 <Emcy> (protocol wise)
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 676 2014-01-17 11:41:07 <wumpus> inform the masses, don't preach to the choir :)
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 679 2014-01-17 11:43:18 <Emcy> i try, when i can
 680 2014-01-17 11:43:22 <Emcy> i dont exactly have a platform
 681 2014-01-17 11:43:32 <wumpus> neither do I
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 705 2014-01-17 12:18:12 <fanquake> ;;blocks
 706 2014-01-17 12:18:13 <gribble> 280978
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 731 2014-01-17 13:10:10 <TD> right. my bitcoin node should be reachable via hidden services as well now
 732 2014-01-17 13:10:17 <TD> wish i wasn't too lazy to test it works :-)
 733 2014-01-17 13:11:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|TD: What's the address?
 734 2014-01-17 13:13:40 <TD> n5o5kf6ggofn37ne.onion
 735 2014-01-17 13:14:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|{"addr" : "n5o5kf6ggofn37ne.onion","services" : "00000001","lastsend" : 1389963822,"lastrecv" : 1389963821,"bytessent" : 446,"bytesrecv" : 75292,"conntime" : 1389963816,"version" : 70002,"subver" : "/Satoshi:0.8.99/","inbound" : false,"startingheight" : 280981,"banscore" : 0}
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 738 2014-01-17 13:15:02 <TD> nice, thanks :)
 739 2014-01-17 13:15:14 <TD> yep, i see it in the logs. great.
 740 2014-01-17 13:15:27 <TD> and also in ARM
 741 2014-01-17 13:15:34 <TD> i wonder how long it will take before nodes connect organically
 742 2014-01-17 13:15:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Not too long, probably
 743 2014-01-17 13:16:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I have 2-something incoming connections from localhost atm
 744 2014-01-17 13:16:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|20-something*
 745 2014-01-17 13:16:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|been running for ~15-20 hours
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 754 2014-01-17 13:25:10 <sipa> TD: i get tons of onion connections
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 760 2014-01-17 13:29:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Same here
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 765 2014-01-17 13:34:27 <TD> huh
 766 2014-01-17 13:34:29 <TD> interesting
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 775 2014-01-17 13:47:22 <tg0> Can BitcoinJS be used to sign transactions statelessly? Supply transactionhex, json inputs, and a private key corresponding to a public key in the redeemScript?
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 782 2014-01-17 13:50:53 <tg0> I'm having issues coming up with a universal way to pass transactions to clients to sign, it's hard to meet everyone's needs with this. An offline JS page would be great.
 783 2014-01-17 13:51:05 <kjj_> bip10?
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 794 2014-01-17 14:05:56 <tg0> kjj_: I haven't read that too much, but guessing not everyone supports that either?
 795 2014-01-17 14:09:10 <tg0> i'm generating unsigned multisignature transactions in bitcoind. I haven't gotten electrum to sign any of these yet, so that's got me thinking about just giving a js tool and they could just paste in the signed transaction.
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 798 2014-01-17 14:12:46 <sipa> that means you'd be trusting their browser with the private key?
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 800 2014-01-17 14:16:53 <tg0> yeah, it's not great. obviously not online, but then again, many won't bother with this, nor checking checksums
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 802 2014-01-17 14:17:43 <tg0> ideally the mpk would only be used for signing transactions, and not have access to funds
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 827 2014-01-17 14:57:32 <andytoshi> michagogo|cloud: would you like to try a testnet join?
 828 2014-01-17 14:59:59 <andytoshi> michagogo|cloud: i have refreshed the windows build so there is a File->Settings... option to point the client at testnet
 829 2014-01-17 15:00:10 <andytoshi> everyone: windows download link is http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/cj-windows.zip
 830 2014-01-17 15:00:21 <andytoshi> source code is https://github.com/apoelstra/cj-client
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 879 2014-01-17 16:00:07 <shamoon> why are the first few bits of a block hash zero? i.e., 000000000002bd6090782457b3f614510407eb0426d48591b43416cfa3326ed9
 880 2014-01-17 16:01:12 <gavinandresen> shamoon: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_work
 881 2014-01-17 16:01:33 <shamoon> ohhhh
 882 2014-01-17 16:01:41 <shamoon> so the block hash is what has to be less than the target
 883 2014-01-17 16:01:47 <gavinandresen> yes
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 885 2014-01-17 16:02:17 <shamoon> word
 886 2014-01-17 16:02:18 <shamoon> thanks gavinandresen
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 916 2014-01-17 16:44:45 <helo> (OT) having trouble finding gavin's blog post explaining the rationale for 5430 satoshi outputs being !isStandard(). looked through all of the foundation blog posts :/
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 918 2014-01-17 16:46:33 <helo> utxo bloat prevention is all i recall
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 935 2014-01-17 17:09:24 <gmaxwell> helo: it's not realy 54xx satoshi, it's a formula based on the minimum relay fee, attempting to approximate "very likely to cost more to spend than its worth"
 936 2014-01-17 17:09:51 <gmaxwell> just with the current txn sizes and min relay fees it comes out to that amount. If you change the relay fee on your node it changes.
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 941 2014-01-17 17:11:07 <helo> ahh, right
 942 2014-01-17 17:11:30 <Apocalyptic> I thought the relay fee was dropped
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 949 2014-01-17 17:17:26 <CodeShark> I just wish the relayers got to keep the fee rather than the miners :)
 950 2014-01-17 17:17:43 <CodeShark> we've got really messed up incentives
 951 2014-01-17 17:18:01 <sipa> yeah, i think that's the most important icnentive problem in bitcoin
 952 2014-01-17 17:18:02 bbdude has joined
 953 2014-01-17 17:18:10 <sipa> but i know of no way - even theoretically - to solve it
 954 2014-01-17 17:18:28 <phillipsjk> CodeShark, but what if there is more than 1 relay, who gets the fee?
 955 2014-01-17 17:19:03 <phillipsjk> My solution: add token hash-power to my relay.
 956 2014-01-17 17:19:11 <phillipsjk> Not really s solution though.
 957 2014-01-17 17:19:49 <CodeShark> you need a proof-of-relay system
 958 2014-01-17 17:20:10 <CodeShark> that doesn't add too much overhead
 959 2014-01-17 17:20:34 <CodeShark> and there are also privacy issues
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 961 2014-01-17 17:21:10 <sipa> also, it would just mean you incentivize people to relay to miners directly...
 962 2014-01-17 17:21:22 <sipa> to avoid relays from eating away the fee
 963 2014-01-17 17:21:33 <CodeShark> for instance, if the script supported transactions where you can claim portions of the outputs if you can prove you relayed it
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 965 2014-01-17 17:22:01 <CodeShark> if the portions remain unclaimed, they go back to the originator
 966 2014-01-17 17:22:05 <phillipsjk> or set up a virtual machine full of highbandwidth low latency "relays"
 967 2014-01-17 17:22:06 <helo> this is the concern voiced by the microsoft researchers a while back, right?
 968 2014-01-17 17:22:56 <CodeShark> sipa: miners don't really have incentive, then, to relay transactions they haven't mined
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 970 2014-01-17 17:24:27 <CodeShark> perhaps miners could also put up part of the relay fee
 971 2014-01-17 17:24:40 <CodeShark> to avoid being bogged down with incoming connections
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 973 2014-01-17 17:28:37 <jcorgan> sipa: i'm having trouble replicating the WIF outputs of the BIP0032 test vectors
 974 2014-01-17 17:29:13 <sipa> jcorgan: only the WIF outputs?
 975 2014-01-17 17:29:19 <sipa> not xpub/xprv's?
 976 2014-01-17 17:29:25 <jcorgan> right
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 978 2014-01-17 17:29:41 <jcorgan> it looks like the WIF outputs were created with a truncated secret key
 979 2014-01-17 17:29:56 <sipa> truncated?
 980 2014-01-17 17:30:07 <jcorgan> let me walk you through it
 981 2014-01-17 17:30:17 <jcorgan> take test vector 1, key chain 'm'
 982 2014-01-17 17:30:25 <sipa> ok
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 984 2014-01-17 17:30:40 <jcorgan> the published WIF is L52XzL2cMkHxqxBXRyEpnPQZGUs3uKiL3R11XbAdHigRzDozKZeW
 985 2014-01-17 17:30:41 <sipa> what WIF key do you get?
 986 2014-01-17 17:31:00 <jcorgan> i get 5KasyVKwgbH5VmDomdJdevZXRMMrbWcePkW17vxeg8daJWoeqHQ
 987 2014-01-17 17:31:09 <sipa> you didn't add the compression flag
 988 2014-01-17 17:31:20 javax has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 989 2014-01-17 17:31:25 <sipa> the WIF format is 0x80 [32 byte secret] 0x01
 990 2014-01-17 17:31:31 <sipa> for compressed pubkeys
 991 2014-01-17 17:31:37 <sipa> and BIP32 is compressed key only
 992 2014-01-17 17:32:06 <jcorgan> ah, i guess you could call '32 byte secret' truncated :)
 993 2014-01-17 17:32:41 <sipa> how so?
 994 2014-01-17 17:32:42 javax has joined
 995 2014-01-17 17:33:04 <jcorgan> when i used http://gobittest.appspot.com/PrivateKey
 996 2014-01-17 17:33:19 ZG has joined
 997 2014-01-17 17:33:22 <jcorgan> to decode the published WIF, the resulting secret looked like a truncated version of the original
 998 2014-01-17 17:33:43 <sipa> meh, another site that doesn't support compressed keys :(
 999 2014-01-17 17:34:19 <sipa> they were introduced over 2 years ago now
1000 2014-01-17 17:34:31 <jcorgan> so, is https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_import_format incomplete?
1001 2014-01-17 17:34:50 <sipa> yes
1002 2014-01-17 17:36:27 <jcorgan> is the only difference adding 0x01 to the end before calculating the checksum for appending?
1003 2014-01-17 17:38:05 Gnaf has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1004 2014-01-17 17:38:40 Azra-el has joined
1005 2014-01-17 17:38:54 <sipa> yeah
1006 2014-01-17 17:38:55 btcNeverSleeps has joined
1007 2014-01-17 17:38:58 <sipa> feel free to update the wiki!
1008 2014-01-17 17:39:01 <jcorgan> let me try that
1009 2014-01-17 17:39:11 <Azra-el> hello. mind if i ask a question not related to bitcoin but about static compiling an altcoin? ^^
1010 2014-01-17 17:39:38 <sipa> i'll answer if the question applies to bitcoin too
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1012 2014-01-17 17:40:47 <btcNeverSleeps> there's something I don't understand very well about Electrum and it's "12 words out of 1626, providing about 128 bits of entropy" (if I'm not mistaken).  Why didn't it choose a bigger dictionnary, providing 256 bits of entropy? (for the user it would still just be a list of 12 words to write down)   I know that 2^128 is "enough", but then we could also all use md5 instead SHA-256 etc.
1013 2014-01-17 17:40:55 <jcorgan> sipa: we have a winner
1014 2014-01-17 17:42:27 <Azra-el> i guess it should apply to every coin ... mainly how do i actually build a static version ... keep getting ld: cannot find -lgcc_s
1015 2014-01-17 17:42:46 <sipa> btcNeverSleeps: that would require a dictionary of 2642243 words...
1016 2014-01-17 17:44:40 <btcNeverSleeps> sipa: ooooh, gotcha
1017 2014-01-17 17:45:11 <sipa> for 192 bits, it would require a 65536 word dictionary, which is already huge
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1019 2014-01-17 17:46:05 <btcNeverSleeps> and prone to mistakes from the user... I get it now : )
1020 2014-01-17 17:46:11 <Azra-el> so im guessing it does not apply to bitcoin also :)
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1022 2014-01-17 17:46:45 <jcorgan> well, here is my progress so far on my BIP0032 address generator: http://pastebin.com/BjqxVzKL
1023 2014-01-17 17:48:24 <btcNeverSleeps> another one about Electrum... I have my 12 words randomly generated by Electrum (and all differents) and now I generate an offline wallet for a friend: what is the probability that at least one of its 12 words is identical to one of my 12 words?  Is it ((1626-12)/1626)^12 ?   (which gives 8.5% and which I found quite high)
1024 2014-01-17 17:49:05 <andytoshi> btcNeverSleeps: that looks right, and sounds about right
1025 2014-01-17 17:49:23 <andytoshi> ^12 is a pretty violent operation
1026 2014-01-17 17:49:34 <sipa> doesn't look right to me
1027 2014-01-17 17:49:37 <btcNeverSleeps> I guess it I find this "quite high" for more or less the same reason the "birthday paradox" is called, well, a paradox : )
1028 2014-01-17 17:49:45 <sipa> you forget the possibility that a given work may occur twice
1029 2014-01-17 17:49:49 <sipa> *word
1030 2014-01-17 17:50:05 <btcNeverSleeps> sipa: I had 12 different words in my own wallet's 12-words seed
1031 2014-01-17 17:50:06 <andytoshi> sipa: oh, that's right
1032 2014-01-17 17:50:13 <btcNeverSleeps> Wait
1033 2014-01-17 17:50:16 <sipa> though i don't think it'll be much off if you do take that into account
1034 2014-01-17 17:50:16 <andytoshi> btcNeverSleeps: also, you mean 1 minus what you wrote
1035 2014-01-17 17:50:28 <btcNeverSleeps> I meant p = 1 - ((1626-12)/1626)^12
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1037 2014-01-17 17:50:46 <btcNeverSleeps> andytoshi: yup, 1 minus, wrote too fast
1038 2014-01-17 17:51:19 <btcNeverSleeps> ain't it correct for "at least one identical word"?
1039 2014-01-17 17:51:20 <sipa> if you assume both your and their passphrase can contain repeated words, it's 1-(1625/1626)^12
1040 2014-01-17 17:51:24 <sipa> 0.73%
1041 2014-01-17 17:51:47 <sipa> ah, no, that's the chance that the same word occurs at the same position
1042 2014-01-17 17:51:52 <btcNeverSleeps> sipa: :)
1043 2014-01-17 17:52:36 <andytoshi> sipa: i think if you want to take into account repeated works, you'll have to write an ugly sum
1044 2014-01-17 17:53:14 <andytoshi> better to say, the "the probability that my friend will share a word, GIVEN that i have n unique words, is [(1626-n)/1626]^12"
1045 2014-01-17 17:53:26 <andytoshi> s/better/way easier/
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1047 2014-01-17 17:53:30 <btcNeverSleeps> basically I'm asking because a friend came here so that I could generate him a fully offline wallet (from a computer with no hard-disk and using a Linux boot CD, etc.), an old offline printer (no WiFi) and all that...  So it was feeling all secure and then *poof*: one of his word was the same as one of mine, so we started running the math and weren't too sure  ^ ^
1048 2014-01-17 17:53:58 <sipa> ok, degrade the problem
1049 2014-01-17 17:54:01 <btcNeverSleeps> andytoshi: now you forgot the one minus right?
1050 2014-01-17 17:54:03 <sipa> and say we're only using 2 words
1051 2014-01-17 17:54:06 <andytoshi> btcNeverSleeps: yes :)
1052 2014-01-17 17:54:12 <sipa> in the dicitonary
1053 2014-01-17 17:54:18 <sipa> and use 128 words instead of 12
1054 2014-01-17 17:54:27 <sipa> the chance of a word being repeated now is 100%
1055 2014-01-17 17:54:33 <sipa> big deal?
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1058 2014-01-17 17:55:04 <Azra-el> my passwords often contain letters found in other people's passwords
1059 2014-01-17 17:55:14 <btcNeverSleeps> Azra-el: point taken : )
1060 2014-01-17 17:55:29 <Azra-el> as long as the rest of the letters arent the same i guess im ok :)
1061 2014-01-17 17:55:59 <btcNeverSleeps> and there's more than 50% two people out of 23 in a classroom have their birthday the same day... It's still called a "paradox" for a reason :)
1062 2014-01-17 17:56:01 <andytoshi> oh, i thought this was a purely academic question :} yes, it's silly
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1064 2014-01-17 17:56:58 <btcNeverSleeps> well we got into a friendly argument about the math behind it... I wouldn't have checked if it happened to have had 12 entirely different words.
1065 2014-01-17 17:57:05 <Azra-el> i think you need to def: paradox btcNeverSleeps
1066 2014-01-17 17:57:29 <btcNeverSleeps> Azra-el: I think the person who coined the term "Birthday paradox" should ;)
1067 2014-01-17 17:58:51 <Azra-el> well not to be anal but yeah maybe they should.... i know what you're refering and afaik the def is "A paradox is a statement that apparently contradicts itself and yet might be true"
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1074 2014-01-17 18:08:43 <jgarzik> gents,
1075 2014-01-17 18:08:47 <btcNeverSleeps> noobish question: when you receive bitcoins to one of your public adress, do you always have enough infos to send what you received back to the sender (ignoring fees)? I mean: do you have always have one public adress (or multiple ones) from which the coins came that you can then use as recipients should you want to send the coins back?
1076 2014-01-17 18:08:55 <jgarzik> BitPay would like 3-of-5 multisig to be standard
1077 2014-01-17 18:09:02 <jgarzik> <vendor hat: on>
1078 2014-01-17 18:09:16 <jgarzik> any objections?  data spam?
1079 2014-01-17 18:09:19 <sipa> btcNeverSleeps: no
1080 2014-01-17 18:09:28 <kjj_> there is no sender
1081 2014-01-17 18:09:32 kjj_ is now known as kjj
1082 2014-01-17 18:09:35 <jgarzik> current relay standard is X-of-3, maximum
1083 2014-01-17 18:09:35 <sipa> btcNeverSleeps: you cannot send coins back in a reliable way, without asking for an address from the sender
1084 2014-01-17 18:10:59 <sipa> jgarzik: compromise: enable X-of-Y, where Y is at most 5 and X is at most 3?
1085 2014-01-17 18:11:13 <lechuga__> interesting
1086 2014-01-17 18:11:17 <lechuga__> what is bitpay up to :)
1087 2014-01-17 18:11:19 <sipa> jgarzik: that has the same resource requirements as 3-of-3
1088 2014-01-17 18:11:42 <kjj> what abuse is the nonstandardness of x-of-y preventing anyway?
1089 2014-01-17 18:11:50 <jgarzik> sipa, interesting thought
1090 2014-01-17 18:11:59 <kjj> people padding data into their spare of-y slots?
1091 2014-01-17 18:12:09 <jgarzik> kjj, 1-of-100, store 99 data x 32 bytes
1092 2014-01-17 18:12:14 <jgarzik> and one valid key
1093 2014-01-17 18:12:14 <sipa> (i'm not saying that X and Y need these limits from my point of view, but it's an argument that can help convince others)
1094 2014-01-17 18:12:35 <sipa> oh wait no
1095 2014-01-17 18:12:45 <sipa> the scriptSig needs all pubkeys
1096 2014-01-17 18:12:49 <sipa> hrmms
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1099 2014-01-17 18:13:03 <lechuga__> wouldnt the scriptPubKey have all of the pubkeys
1100 2014-01-17 18:13:20 <sipa> well, in P2SH the scriptSig
1101 2014-01-17 18:13:23 <sipa> but indeed
1102 2014-01-17 18:13:26 <jgarzik> this is P2SH
1103 2014-01-17 18:13:29 <lechuga__> ic
1104 2014-01-17 18:13:29 <jgarzik> we like P2SH :)
1105 2014-01-17 18:13:30 <kjj> how about (x+y)<=8
1106 2014-01-17 18:14:04 <jgarzik> before re-reading, I was thinking that what kjj just said was what sipa was thinking
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1108 2014-01-17 18:14:38 <jgarzik> something where Y is bounded by X
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1110 2014-01-17 18:14:53 <lechuga__> x > y makes no sense
1111 2014-01-17 18:15:04 <kjj> a sig is roughly the same size as a pubkey, so sizewise x+y is the important part.
1112 2014-01-17 18:15:27 <kjj> I would argue that checking the sigs is "free" at the moment too
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1116 2014-01-17 18:16:59 <waxwing> x of y has a lot of applications. tx fee ratcheted to size is the real issue here, no?
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1119 2014-01-17 18:18:33 <lechuga__> did any1 notice the realitykeys announcement?
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1123 2014-01-17 18:19:12 <lechuga__> i wonder if they get bragging rights for first oracle
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1126 2014-01-17 18:22:01 <jgarzik> lechuga__, I tweeted/FB'd/G+'d about Reality Keys :)
1127 2014-01-17 18:22:14 <jgarzik> good stuff.  glad to see these sorts of applications.
1128 2014-01-17 18:23:21 <petertodd> jgarzik: P2SH doesn't have n-of-m limits btw
1129 2014-01-17 18:23:31 <petertodd> jgarzik: only bare CHECKMULTISIG does
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1131 2014-01-17 18:23:48 <lechuga__> yeah the BIP says it can accomodate 22+ sigs?
1132 2014-01-17 18:23:51 <jgarzik> petertodd, really?  I'll have to double check that.
1133 2014-01-17 18:24:03 <jgarzik> That doesn't match my memory.
1134 2014-01-17 18:24:04 <lechuga__> i havent processed how that scriptSig works tho
1135 2014-01-17 18:24:09 <lechuga__> re: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0016.mediawiki
1136 2014-01-17 18:24:13 <lechuga__> grep for "+22"
1137 2014-01-17 18:24:30 <petertodd> lechuga__: no, CHECKMULTISIG maxes out at 20, and because P2SH is limited by the max size of a PUSHDATA it can only do 15 compressed pubkeys
1138 2014-01-17 18:24:51 <petertodd> jgarzik: follow the IsStandardTxInput or whatever it was called again code - nothing actually checks it
1139 2014-01-17 18:25:06 <lechuga__> IsStandard() it hink
1140 2014-01-17 18:25:27 <petertodd> lechuga__: oh, that's talked about signature operations, not signatures
1141 2014-01-17 18:25:38 <lechuga__> ah
1142 2014-01-17 18:25:38 <petertodd> lechuga__: *talking
1143 2014-01-17 18:25:56 <lechuga__> its still not clear to me exactly what it means
1144 2014-01-17 18:26:07 <lechuga__> like its obvious how the +3 operations one works
1145 2014-01-17 18:26:27 <jgarzik> petertodd, uh, scriptSig size check is right up front
1146 2014-01-17 18:26:45 Burrito has joined
1147 2014-01-17 18:27:02 <petertodd> lechuga__: that's an interesting edge case, because within a p2sh the sigops of a script is evaluated differently - if the CHECKMULTISIG op has a non-numerical anything behind it it counts as the usual 20 sigops, but if it is a push-small-number it counts the actual signatures as the sigops
1148 2014-01-17 18:27:07 <petertodd> jgarzik: heh, how much do you want to bet?
1149 2014-01-17 18:27:32 <jgarzik>         if (txin.scriptSig.size() > 500) {
1150 2014-01-17 18:27:33 <jgarzik>             reason = "scriptsig-size";
1151 2014-01-17 18:27:33 <jgarzik>             return false;
1152 2014-01-17 18:27:33 <jgarzik>         }
1153 2014-01-17 18:27:49 <jgarzik> petertodd, nothing, I just pasted
1154 2014-01-17 18:28:21 <petertodd> jgarzik: right, but it *doesn't* check how many pubkeys are in a CHECKMULTISIG in a P2SH, unlike the non-P2SH case
1155 2014-01-17 18:28:38 <petertodd> jgarzik: in other words with P2SH bitpays 3-of-5 requirement can be met
1156 2014-01-17 18:28:40 <jgarzik> petertodd, sure it does... indirectly ;p
1157 2014-01-17 18:28:57 <petertodd> jgarzik: point is, 3-of-5 checkmultisig in a P2SH is standard
1158 2014-01-17 18:29:27 <petertodd> jgarzik: n-of-15 can even be spent
1159 2014-01-17 18:29:43 <lechuga__> so you can do scriptSig: <sig1> <sig2> <sig3> 3 <key1> ... <key5> 5 OP_CHECKMULTISIG ?
1160 2014-01-17 18:30:01 <jgarzik> petertodd, with this size limit, no, it effectively is not
1161 2014-01-17 18:30:25 <lechuga__> trying to understand how youd actually construct a 3-of-5 scriptsig
1162 2014-01-17 18:31:08 <petertodd> jgarzik: ok, so 5 compressed keys and 3 signatures: 5*34 + 1 + 73*3 + 3 = 393 bytes
1163 2014-01-17 18:31:19 Vinnie_win has joined
1164 2014-01-17 18:32:01 <lechuga__> guess i forgot op_0
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1166 2014-01-17 18:32:22 <jgarzik> petertodd, interesting; I came up with 565
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1168 2014-01-17 18:34:56 <petertodd> jgarzik: here, 3c2a2893c473bfc78354436bd698f7a6f64bdb623177ecf8e246aeee7c70b53d spends 38c06dbb642831f75949079615b5ca8889c1bd057338d21c6cab0bd5c9d52033
1169 2014-01-17 18:35:09 wereHamster has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1171 2014-01-17 18:36:24 <lechuga__> oh wow i totally misunderstood p2sh for multisig
1172 2014-01-17 18:36:47 <sipa> wait, what? p2sh multisig doesn't check standardness of the spending script?
1173 2014-01-17 18:36:49 <jcorgan> sipa: to clarify my understanding of WIF, for secret keys to associated with an uncompressed pubkey, with raw format is '\x80'+secret before encoding, and if the secret key is to be associated with a compressed pubkey, you also add a '\x01' to the raw format before encoding.  (perhaps 'associated' is the wrong term)
1174 2014-01-17 18:36:59 <sipa> jcorgan: correct
1175 2014-01-17 18:37:01 <petertodd> jgarzik: now, having said that, for stealth addresses one possible way to implement them would be to put the ephemereal pubkey in a bare checkmultisig
1176 2014-01-17 18:37:03 <lechuga__> sipa: it's a diff definition of standradr
1177 2014-01-17 18:37:08 <lechuga__> where standard = only push ops
1178 2014-01-17 18:37:10 b4epoche_ has joined
1179 2014-01-17 18:37:20 <lechuga__> at least given my read of the code
1180 2014-01-17 18:37:22 <sipa> petertodd: ewwww
1181 2014-01-17 18:37:37 <jcorgan> thanks
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1183 2014-01-17 18:37:45 <petertodd> sipa: it checks everything but what n and m of the n-of-m it is
1184 2014-01-17 18:37:48 <sipa> lechuga__: standard p2sh scriptsig = push only + standard embedded pubkey script
1185 2014-01-17 18:38:34 <petertodd> sipa: meh, means they look exactly like any other checkmultisig - means a SPV client could query for matching txouts rather than transactions containing specified txouts
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1187 2014-01-17 18:39:00 <sipa> petertodd: my ewww does not preclude it from being the best technical solution :)
1188 2014-01-17 18:39:02 <petertodd> sipa: if we wind up in a model where SPV clients only get txouts that'd useful - ie with committed UTXO or similar schemes
1189 2014-01-17 18:39:08 <petertodd> sipa: heh, well...
1190 2014-01-17 18:39:28 <petertodd> sipa: alternative for that kind of scheme is jgarzik's OP_DROP data...
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1206 2014-01-17 18:51:43 <lechuga__> i wonder if a decentralized oracle could make sense
1207 2014-01-17 18:51:58 <lechuga__> given an oracle is by definition a trusted 3rd party
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1210 2014-01-17 18:52:46 <petertodd> here's a spend of a 1-of-12 p2sh: 779b519480d8c5346de6e635119c7ee772e97ec872240c45e558f582a37b4b73
1211 2014-01-17 18:53:13 <petertodd> that's a 411 byte script sig, the max you can do in the 500 byte limit
1212 2014-01-17 18:53:33 <lechuga__> hmm why doesnt that txn show up in blockexplorer
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1215 2014-01-17 18:54:14 <petertodd> lechuga__: it will once it confirms
1216 2014-01-17 18:54:22 <lechuga__> o u just made it :)
1217 2014-01-17 18:54:31 <petertodd> lechuga__: blockexplorer and blockchian.info both ignore p2sh anything
1218 2014-01-17 18:54:53 <jgarzik> lechuga__, just multiple independent oracles, answering the same question
1219 2014-01-17 18:54:55 <lechuga__> oh really?
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1225 2014-01-17 18:55:31 <lechuga__> jgarzik: but what about the 3rd party's signature?
1226 2014-01-17 18:55:51 <lechuga__> how can i disperse the signing material securely among decentralized oracles
1227 2014-01-17 18:56:18 zcopley has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1228 2014-01-17 18:56:35 <lechuga__> actually
1229 2014-01-17 18:56:42 <sipa> it can be centralized but relatively trustless (by making the oracle aware of who you are and testable)
1230 2014-01-17 18:56:46 <sipa> *unaware
1231 2014-01-17 18:57:15 <jgarzik> petertodd, 1-of-12 is less interesting than, say, 5 of 7 or 3 of 5
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1233 2014-01-17 18:58:01 <petertodd> jgarzik: heh, well I can do all those too if you want :)
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1236 2014-01-17 19:02:15 <lechuga__> so is it true to say the serialized script in the p2sh scripSig can be compeltely nonstandard?
1237 2014-01-17 19:02:55 <sipa> no
1238 2014-01-17 19:03:03 <sipa> apparently there's only one check missing from it
1239 2014-01-17 19:03:42 <lechuga__> i cant find the check for standardness on the deserialized script in VerifyScript
1240 2014-01-17 19:04:10 <sipa> checking for standardness != checking for validity
1241 2014-01-17 19:04:17 <sipa> a script can be either or both
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1243 2014-01-17 19:06:26 <lechuga__> one check missing?
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1247 2014-01-17 19:10:01 <lechuga__> still confused, i dont see any standardness check on the serialized script in p2sh scriptsig
1248 2014-01-17 19:10:05 <lechuga__> im probably being dense though
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1252 2014-01-17 19:12:35 <lechuga__> scriptSig: [signature] {[foo] OP_DROP [bar] OP_DROP [blah] OP_DROP}
1253 2014-01-17 19:12:45 <lechuga__> that looks like it'd be legal to me
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1255 2014-01-17 19:13:13 <lechuga__> pointless but legal
1256 2014-01-17 19:13:13 <sipa> VerifyScript has nothing to do with standardness
1257 2014-01-17 19:13:21 <sipa> it checks whether the script evaluates to true
1258 2014-01-17 19:13:26 <sipa> which is only done at spending time
1259 2014-01-17 19:13:34 <lechuga__> ok well IsStandardTx
1260 2014-01-17 19:13:38 <sipa> standardness is enforced entirely differently
1261 2014-01-17 19:13:40 <lechuga__> i still dont see a check on the serialized script there
1262 2014-01-17 19:14:01 <lechuga__> i only see a standardness check on scriptPubKey
1263 2014-01-17 19:14:40 <sipa> see AreInputsStandard
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1269 2014-01-17 19:16:18 <lechuga__> ok i see that it validates that the scriptSig only contains push ops
1270 2014-01-17 19:16:38 <lechuga__> but it doesnt deserialize the serizlied script for p2sh scriptSig and do any check on that afaict
1271 2014-01-17 19:16:50 <sipa> indeed
1272 2014-01-17 19:16:58 <petertodd> lechuga__: no it does, it checks that the inner scriptPubKey is a IsStandard() type
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1274 2014-01-17 19:17:25 <petertodd> lechuga__: the thing is that it doesn't use IsStandard() for that, it actually just checks via some other function
1275 2014-01-17 19:17:37 <lechuga__> ok
1276 2014-01-17 19:17:41 <petertodd> lechuga__: (forget the name off the top of my head) and checks that the number of pushdata arguments is correct
1277 2014-01-17 19:17:47 <lechuga__> so: scriptSig: [signature] {[foo] OP_DROP [bar] OP_DROP [blah] OP_DROP}
1278 2014-01-17 19:17:51 <lechuga__> is illegal?
1279 2014-01-17 19:17:58 <sipa> no, but non-standard
1280 2014-01-17 19:18:06 <lechuga__> and thus wont be relayed
1281 2014-01-17 19:18:08 <lechuga__> ok
1282 2014-01-17 19:18:11 <sipa> indeed
1283 2014-01-17 19:18:22 <lechuga__> i should try it and set a breakpoint and see exactly how
1284 2014-01-17 19:18:24 <petertodd> lechuga__: for instance while it checks that a CHECKMULTISIG has *a* extra PUSHDATA to get around the too-many-dropped bug, it doesn't actually check that the extra pushdata is a null
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1287 2014-01-17 19:19:36 <lechuga__> ah
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1289 2014-01-17 19:19:42 <lechuga__> so OP_0 could be anything at all
1290 2014-01-17 19:19:45 <petertodd> exactly
1291 2014-01-17 19:20:15 <petertodd> source of tx mutability too, so that needs fixing
1292 2014-01-17 19:20:36 <lechuga__> so is 3-of-5 specially standard iff it appears in a serialized scriptSig for p2sh?
1293 2014-01-17 19:20:57 <petertodd> yup
1294 2014-01-17 19:21:12 <lechuga__> and there are no hard x-of-y limits only implicit limit on size?
1295 2014-01-17 19:21:16 <petertodd> yup
1296 2014-01-17 19:21:20 <lechuga__> phew ok
1297 2014-01-17 19:21:23 <lechuga__> :)
1298 2014-01-17 19:21:27 <petertodd> hence my 1-of-12 proof-of-existence :)
1299 2014-01-17 19:22:05 <lechuga__> learning is fun
1300 2014-01-17 19:22:23 <petertodd> lechuga__: you can learn some more and fix the OP_0 thing for us...
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1302 2014-01-17 19:22:53 <lechuga__> i could take a look
1303 2014-01-17 19:23:00 <petertodd> lechuga__: thanks
1304 2014-01-17 19:23:02 <lechuga__> np
1305 2014-01-17 19:23:08 <lechuga__> thank you guys
1306 2014-01-17 19:23:13 <lechuga__> id be lost without u
1307 2014-01-17 19:23:28 <lechuga__> playign catch-up when everyone else has had 2+ years to soak all of this stuff in is rough
1308 2014-01-17 19:23:47 nickler has joined
1309 2014-01-17 19:23:53 <petertodd> lechuga__: np problem, one of the best ways to learn something thoroughly is to teach it to others :)
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1312 2014-01-17 19:24:49 <nickler> what is a good way to get testnet coins? Both tpfaucet.appspot.com and faucet.xeno-genesis.com give me some kind of HTTP/API error.
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1319 2014-01-17 19:31:15 <EasyAt> tank
1320 2014-01-17 19:31:19 <lechuga__> another gap in my understanding is in ecc itself
1321 2014-01-17 19:31:25 <lechuga__> i read http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/10/a-relatively-easy-to-understand-primer-on-elliptic-curve-cryptography which is great and all
1322 2014-01-17 19:31:27 agricocb has joined
1323 2014-01-17 19:31:31 <lechuga__> but i want a bit more detail
1324 2014-01-17 19:31:41 jgarzik_ is now known as jgarzik
1325 2014-01-17 19:32:08 <lechuga__> can anyone recommend a good article a non-crypto expert could read which would help build upon the basic understanding
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1327 2014-01-17 19:35:21 <nickler> lechuga__: I am a cryptography newbie, but http://daaproject.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/%E8%B5%84%E6%96%99/Guide%20to%20Elliptic%20Curve%20Cryptography%20-%202004%20-%20(By%20Laxxuss).pdf was a good introduction for me. Found this by searching for "elliptic curve cryptography introduction" on google scholar.
1328 2014-01-17 19:37:39 <lechuga__> am i crazy or is this in japanese
1329 2014-01-17 19:38:52 <nickler> either i am crazy or this is in english
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1331 2014-01-17 19:39:31 <lechuga__> nm
1332 2014-01-17 19:39:32 <lechuga__> i was crazy
1333 2014-01-17 19:39:34 <lechuga__> thx :)
1334 2014-01-17 19:40:13 <lechuga__> this looks good
1335 2014-01-17 19:43:02 twizt has joined
1336 2014-01-17 19:43:14 <twizt> hey
1337 2014-01-17 19:43:23 <twizt> does lowercase uppercase matter for a bitcoin address?
1338 2014-01-17 19:43:27 <gmaxwell> yes
1339 2014-01-17 19:43:36 <twizt> so its a different address?
1340 2014-01-17 19:43:44 <twizt> 1387489sdf
1341 2014-01-17 19:43:47 <twizt> 1387489SDf
1342 2014-01-17 19:43:49 <twizt> = different?
1343 2014-01-17 19:44:38 <gmaxwell> Yes, the case matters.
1344 2014-01-17 19:44:50 <gmaxwell> though a simple change like that is almost never a valid address.
1345 2014-01-17 19:45:03 <twizt> gotcha
1346 2014-01-17 19:45:28 <twizt> time to get rid of my toLowerCase function
1347 2014-01-17 19:45:29 <twizt> haha
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1356 2014-01-17 19:59:02 <twizt> ty gmaxwell
1357 2014-01-17 19:59:12 <twizt> <33
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1384 2014-01-17 20:50:12 <twizt> anyone familiar with blockchain json data api?
1385 2014-01-17 20:50:46 <twizt> the single address method, is "total_received" value all unconfirmed+confirmed?
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1387 2014-01-17 20:51:50 <twizt> and whats "n_unredeemed" ?
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1394 2014-01-17 20:59:13 <EasyAt> twizt: I would guess number of unredeemed outputs
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1405 2014-01-17 21:18:32 <andytoshi> twizt: you should probably read http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/bitcoin-faq.pdf
1406 2014-01-17 21:19:01 <twizt> nah i got that
1407 2014-01-17 21:19:06 <twizt> im just wondering what some of the fields meant
1408 2014-01-17 21:22:12 <andytoshi> if you say so, usually people who want the information bc.i provides, are not really clear on transactions and addresses. if you are data mining you probably want to setup your own database.
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1505 2014-01-17 23:33:51 <sipa> TD[away]: it's even so bad, that if i restart my node, that within one minute, i have 4 incoming onion connections
1506 2014-01-17 23:35:41 digitalmagus has joined
1507 2014-01-17 23:36:26 <sipa> 13 out of my 25 inbound connections are onion ones
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1512 2014-01-17 23:51:06 <ahmed_bodi> does anyone here know if theres any python lib's that I might be able to use to simulate getblocktemplate?
1513 2014-01-17 23:51:16 <ahmed_bodi> e.g. to test a miner etc
1514 2014-01-17 23:52:04 <jcorgan> i maintain between 80 and 100 inbound onions
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1516 2014-01-17 23:52:37 <sipa> jcorgan: that was minutes after restart; i'm up to 48 inbound (of which 29 onion) now...
1517 2014-01-17 23:52:40 <sipa> this is scary much
1518 2014-01-17 23:53:32 <CodeShark> scary why?
1519 2014-01-17 23:53:35 _yoy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1520 2014-01-17 23:54:40 <jcorgan> right now it is 84 inbount and 8 outbound, all onions
1521 2014-01-17 23:55:01 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1522 2014-01-17 23:55:07 <CodeShark> is something strange happening on the network?
1523 2014-01-17 23:55:27 skydome has joined
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1527 2014-01-17 23:56:09 <jaakkos> someone is flooding the network with nodes from tor?
1528 2014-01-17 23:57:05 <jcorgan> no, my Tor connection counts have actually been on the low side the last week or so
1529 2014-01-17 23:57:35 <jcorgan> i haven't figured out what it is correlated with, but i think it is just network congestion
1530 2014-01-17 23:58:38 Niedar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1532 2014-01-17 23:59:00 <jaakkos> is onion something different?
1533 2014-01-17 23:59:40 <jaakkos> perhaps not...
1534 2014-01-17 23:59:41 <Zarutian> .onion are tor addresses iirc
1535 2014-01-17 23:59:45 <jcorgan> "onion" is short of "connection to or from The Onion Router network"