1 2014-01-18 00:00:01 <jcorgan> the addresses there are textual and end in .onion
   2 2014-01-18 00:00:50 <Zarutian> iirc it is some cryptographic hash of the public key of the onion site it points to
   3 2014-01-18 00:01:24 <Zarutian> like the .b32.i2p addresses for i2p network
   4 2014-01-18 00:01:26 <jcorgan> something like that.  i've never really looked that the introduction service protocol all that closely
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   6 2014-01-18 00:02:48 <jaakkos> the tor hidden service address resolves to a rendezvous node using some sort of DHT
   7 2014-01-18 00:03:15 <Zarutian> just look at their docu if you are that interested
   8 2014-01-18 00:03:49 <jaakkos> i know how it works :)
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  11 2014-01-18 00:05:22 <Zarutian> jaakkos: okay then do you think yurls are neat? (Basicly the same concept at smaller granularity)
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  14 2014-01-18 00:06:27 <jaakkos> haven't heard of yurls
  15 2014-01-18 00:06:51 <Snowleaksange> hmm seems a lot of people talking about bitcoin micropayments.  but coinbase offering not that impressive
  16 2014-01-18 00:07:06 <Zarutian> jaakkos: http://www.waterken.com/dev/YURL/
  17 2014-01-18 00:07:19 <sipa> jaakkos: tor = the onion router
  18 2014-01-18 00:07:31 <jaakkos> sipa: i happen to know that much thank you :)
  19 2014-01-18 00:07:55 <Snowleaksange> need published protocol for transaction exchange and daily settlment between peer micropayment ledgers
  20 2014-01-18 00:07:59 <sipa> jaakkos: we treat a base58string.onion string internally like a dotted quad for ipv4
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  22 2014-01-18 00:08:09 <Snowleaksange> seems should also piggyback micropayment authentication off bitcoin addrs/keys
  23 2014-01-18 00:08:23 <jcorgan> gmaxwell had an idea around proof of work and stochastic micropayments, but i've sort of the thread on that
  24 2014-01-18 00:08:30 <jcorgan> lost the thread, that is
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  26 2014-01-18 00:08:46 <jcorgan> gmaxwell has too many ideas :)
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  29 2014-01-18 00:09:38 <Snowleaksange> interesting jcorgan.  ive mostly abandoned idea of using blockchain except for funding transaction and daily settlement between different micropayment ledgers.  just too many transacations to ever work
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  31 2014-01-18 00:10:28 <Snowleaksange> also would like to remake DNS for specifying micropayment domains...
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  33 2014-01-18 00:12:53 <jcorgan> i think it was something micro-mining, where your browser would request work and send a low difficulty share
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  42 2014-01-18 00:19:43 <lechuga__> i think its pretty much agreed micropayments have to be off bloackchain
  43 2014-01-18 00:19:45 <lechuga__> blockchain*
  44 2014-01-18 00:20:12 <lechuga__> how does coinbase's offering work?
  45 2014-01-18 00:21:53 <lechuga__> i guess both parties have to be a customer
  46 2014-01-18 00:22:09 <lechuga__> which is sort of lame
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  49 2014-01-18 00:23:40 <lianj> lechuga__: propose something that work with multiple services
  50 2014-01-18 00:24:17 <jaakkos> Zarutian: i'm not convinced it's feasible for larger population to handle a cryptographic hash in the url...
  51 2014-01-18 00:24:47 <jaakkos> i'm hoping one day there is a better way to share public keys, even if you just use a regular url
  52 2014-01-18 00:25:23 <jaakkos> perhaps something like namecoin
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  55 2014-01-18 00:25:59 <Snowleaksange> ahh nice @ namecoin
  56 2014-01-18 00:26:09 <sipa> jaakkos: public keys for what?
  57 2014-01-18 00:26:29 <jaakkos> for SSL use on any site/service pointed to by url
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  59 2014-01-18 00:26:56 <sipa> how do you prevent someone for poisoning the data?
  60 2014-01-18 00:27:12 <jaakkos> by not having to trust it
  61 2014-01-18 00:27:30 <sipa> that sounds useless
  62 2014-01-18 00:28:15 <jaakkos> i haven't really looked into namecoin, but i could imagine something like, you can register a pubkeyhash with an address
  63 2014-01-18 00:28:27 <jaakkos> and the first registration is authoritative
  64 2014-01-18 00:28:53 <jaakkos> of course there are problems if the site loses the key.
  65 2014-01-18 00:31:39 <jaakkos> it's useless to get rid of CAs who obviously can't be trusted? :)
  66 2014-01-18 00:33:26 <sipa> i'm very unsure about the implementation details and practicalities, but at least in theory, dnssec sounds like the right way to solve the authentication problem (assuming we want to keep DNS itself as naming system)
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  69 2014-01-18 00:34:05 <jcorgan> this sort of thing gets a lot of discussion on the cryptography and cypherpunks mailing lists
  70 2014-01-18 00:38:10 <jaakkos> sipa: but with dnssec, you still need to predistribute keys who sign the records (and keys)
  71 2014-01-18 00:38:55 <jaakkos> and obviously whole world can't use a single key
  72 2014-01-18 00:39:25 <sipa> jaakkos: right, but the authority giving the names is the same as the one authenticating it
  73 2014-01-18 00:40:38 <sipa> it does solve a different problem actually, never mind
  74 2014-01-18 00:41:52 <jaakkos> hmm.. then NSA just chooses DNS providers as their bitches instead of CAs ;)
  75 2014-01-18 00:42:47 <sipa> yeah, DNSSEC only helps guaranteeing that the name you see is the one the nameserver wants you to see
  76 2014-01-18 00:42:58 <sipa> it doesn't establish any real-world identity
  77 2014-01-18 00:44:28 <jaakkos> though they might need more bitches compared to only a few CA ones, since they need separate signing keys for separate sites...
  78 2014-01-18 00:44:49 <jaakkos> provided that users are equipped with valid set of public keys from all major dns providers
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  94 2014-01-18 01:20:49 <Snowleaksange> yeah i would feel a lot better about decentralized dns authority
  95 2014-01-18 01:21:05 <Snowleaksange> wouldnt shed a tear over putting existing registrars out of business either
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 196 2014-01-18 04:50:02 <jcrubino> is possible to have an address that is both valid for litecoin and bitcoin?
 197 2014-01-18 04:50:38 <newbie__> I dont think so
 198 2014-01-18 04:50:41 <brisque> yes.
 199 2014-01-18 04:50:53 <brisque> well, you can use the same keypair but the address will be different.
 200 2014-01-18 04:51:22 <jcrubino> here is a testnet address that is valid according to bitcoind and litecoind n2suEzeTKKJchFH9pfPxya7A5yPuUBdykU
 201 2014-01-18 04:51:38 <jcrubino> it is a testnet address on both systems
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 203 2014-01-18 04:52:02 <brisque> functionally though, HASH160 c6de65b0de55103854c1aa2e0537c1f7790ab025 is 1K8XDQwt9abiGHCjaRLeEKvfGFDAYXnmFP or LdMUUdFiEEqmX5ttkZKwWLzRUTaSdWF4Dj depending on the network, but the private key is the same.
 204 2014-01-18 04:52:31 <brisque> that is, using the same private key (0xf5061b2b2debd8b52a3d86597e3ae3b4578df11ba73be0d0d80af323a0ea9ea7) I can spend from both addresses.
 205 2014-01-18 04:53:27 <newbie__> wow
 206 2014-01-18 04:54:09 <brisque> the only thing different between litecoin and bitcoin addresses is the version byte.
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 208 2014-01-18 04:57:09 <newbie__> any site which provide old market data?
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 480 2014-01-18 12:33:23 <btcNeverSleeps> in which way is "Reality Keys" related to bitcoin? What do they put into the blockchain?
 481 2014-01-18 12:35:26 <brisque> you'll have to give more of a clue than that.
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 484 2014-01-18 12:35:42 <brisque> I've no idea what you're referring to.
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 486 2014-01-18 12:36:46 <sipa> reality keys is an oracle service
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 488 2014-01-18 12:37:56 <brisque> ah, alright.
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 490 2014-01-18 12:40:08 <btcNeverSleeps> can "Reality Keys" be used to implement a dead man's switch?
 491 2014-01-18 12:41:03 <btcNeverSleeps> sipa: when you mean an "oracle service", does it have anything to do with a "random oracle"? (I guess not)
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 494 2014-01-18 12:42:54 <sipa> qa random oracle would be a sort of oracle
 495 2014-01-18 12:44:22 <btcNeverSleeps> I'd be looking for something providing a dead man's switch against computer disconnection: a 3rd party keeping a secret and if the "heartbeat" stops coming for more than two minutes, than it releases the secret. Do you know if such a service already exists somewhere?
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 500 2014-01-18 12:49:21 <brisque> two minutes?
 501 2014-01-18 12:49:58 <brisque> that's an awful tight schedule to keep, especially given networking issues and general server downtime.
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 518 2014-01-18 13:17:18 <wumpus> also sounds like a prime DoS target
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 532 2014-01-18 13:43:58 <dansmith_btc> btcNeverSleeps, I could run such a service on a tamper-proof oracle machne for you. How much are you willing to pay per month?
 533 2014-01-18 13:45:13 <sipa> for 1 year, that requires over 5 nines of reliability
 534 2014-01-18 13:45:33 <sipa> and i guess you want it for a longer period than that
 535 2014-01-18 13:47:58 <dansmith_btc> sipa, "5 nines"? pls explain
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 538 2014-01-18 13:50:28 <dansmith_btc> btcNeverSleeps, check out https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Trust_minimization:_Amazon_AWS_oracles  It links to my thread on btctalk
 539 2014-01-18 13:53:14 <sipa> dansmith_btc: 5 nines = 99.999% uptime
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 541 2014-01-18 13:55:15 <btcNeverSleeps> dansmith_btc: thanks, bookmarked and put on my "to read" list : )
 542 2014-01-18 13:55:38 <btcNeverSleeps> dansmith_btc: sipa meant "99.999% uptime"
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 545 2014-01-18 13:57:53 <btcNeverSleeps> thing is: in my case I'd only need the dead man switch in case someone disconnects (which I know happens but is not that common) and it wouldn't be that much of a big deal if the "dead man switch" service was down for a few minutes.  Moreover if the dead man switch server were to "kick in" (i.e. "answer" / do its duty) only, say, 99% of the time, if would still be acceptable.
 546 2014-01-18 13:58:47 <btcNeverSleeps> what I'm willing to pay would be in btc and it wouldn't be more from what it cost me to write one ;)
 547 2014-01-18 13:59:37 <btcNeverSleeps> "write and run" one.  I don't see it much as a DoS target in that there'd be no way for an attacker to know when one of my participant would disconnect and hence there'd be no way to no when I'd need the help of the "dead man switch" server.
 548 2014-01-18 13:59:50 <btcNeverSleeps> s / to no / to know /
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 555 2014-01-18 14:02:31 <wumpus> you could poll from multiple machines on different networks to increase the reliability
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 563 2014-01-18 14:11:17 <dansmith_btc> btcNeverSleeps, in fact the way my oracle setup works is that you don't even have to trust me as an oracle operator. All you have to do is trust Amazon. So, esentially you can run the oracle machine yourself if you have an AWS account. Anyway, if you choose to hire me, I will not charge you too much, especially if your project is advancing a good cause :)
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 577 2014-01-18 14:44:15 <warren> wumpus: http://pastebin.com/TpsWCnft
 578 2014-01-18 14:45:13 <warren> wumpus: is it really necessary to export the export the source?
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 593 2014-01-18 15:11:36 <wumpus> warren: no, that's not necessary, could be changed around
 594 2014-01-18 15:11:59 <wumpus> warren: only in the final gitian build we want the source (of bitcoin)
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 709 2014-01-18 18:06:14 <ThomasV> maaku: ping
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 716 2014-01-18 18:19:17 <maaku> here
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 737 2014-01-18 18:58:45 <ThomasV> maaku: what makes you think a binary branching tree is more efficient? what are the pros and cons?
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 744 2014-01-18 19:11:58 <maaku> ThomasV: proof sizes are unacceptable with 256-way branching factors, unless you have a Merkle tree internal to the node
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 746 2014-01-18 19:14:31 <maaku> at which point you get the same performance characteristics of a binary tree, with loads more complexity
 747 2014-01-18 19:15:18 <ThomasV> proofs are longer, sure, but merkle paths are shorter
 748 2014-01-18 19:16:03 <gmaxwell> who cares if the path is shorter if it results in much larger proofs?  If you care about access times you can always pack nodes when you store them.
 749 2014-01-18 19:16:06 <ThomasV> what exactly is unacceptable?
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 752 2014-01-18 19:18:28 <maaku> ThomasV: with the serialization format I outlined in the BIP, you store the short Merkle paths
 753 2014-01-18 19:18:32 <maaku> it's the best of both worlds
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 756 2014-01-18 19:19:29 <ThomasV> maaku: my point is, there might be an optimum between 2 and 256
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 758 2014-01-18 19:20:14 <maaku> ThomasV: no, there demonstrably isn't. you don't get any benefit from >2
 759 2014-01-18 19:20:36 <ThomasV> all right
 760 2014-01-18 19:20:47 <maaku> the proofs are bigger, the hashing performance the same
 761 2014-01-18 19:22:09 <maaku> say you use a branching factor of 4
 762 2014-01-18 19:22:34 <maaku> now you need two rounds of the hashing function per level instead of one (because you've exceeded the size of one block)
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 764 2014-01-18 19:23:35 <maaku> but you must store 4 hashes instead of 3 for a path through that same level
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 768 2014-01-18 19:25:11 <maaku> and when you also consider that 2-way branching is simpler (from a standardization standpoint), the choice seemed obvious
 769 2014-01-18 19:25:22 <ThomasV> sure, you must store hashes that are not related to the binary path
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 771 2014-01-18 19:26:48 <maaku> yeah
 772 2014-01-18 19:29:26 <maaku> of course obvious in hindsight - we spent many months in the UBC thread debating various schemes for Merkle compression within a node
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 774 2014-01-18 19:29:44 <maaku> which I guess was an indication that we knew there was an underlying problem
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 788 2014-01-18 19:32:23 <ThomasV> maaku: I was thinking that binary branching would indice more database accesses..
 789 2014-01-18 19:32:41 <ThomasV> induce
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 792 2014-01-18 19:32:55 <sipa> nothing prevents you from packing multiple tree levels into a single database entry
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 796 2014-01-18 19:33:16 <sipa> the semantic structure of the tree doesn't have to match the implementation
 797 2014-01-18 19:33:58 <ThomasV> sipa: how would yu do that?
 798 2014-01-18 19:34:03 nintendo is now known as bbdude
 799 2014-01-18 19:34:17 <gmaxwell> 11:05 < gmaxwell> who cares if the path is shorter if it results in much larger proofs?  If you care about access times you can always pack nodes when you store them.
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 802 2014-01-18 19:34:56 <sipa> ThomasV: make every database entry a tree fragment of let's say 8 deep
 803 2014-01-18 19:34:59 <gmaxwell> just includes the children with the nodes in the same record. that simulates a larger radix.
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 805 2014-01-18 19:35:06 <sipa> serialized in some way
 806 2014-01-18 19:35:29 <ThomasV> oh I see
 807 2014-01-18 19:35:32 <ThomasV> thanks
 808 2014-01-18 19:36:09 <sipa> so you get 1 level-0 entry (with semantic levels 0 through 7), and if there's branching beneath, you can have up to 256 level-1 entries (spanning semantic levels 8-15), etc
 809 2014-01-18 19:36:40 <maaku> ThomasV: what sipa said :)
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 812 2014-01-18 19:37:45 <ThomasV> btw, anyone going to the conference in berlin?
 813 2014-01-18 19:37:52 <sipa> it's very important i think to end up with a semantic structure that can be representing with various tradeoffs in actual implementations
 814 2014-01-18 19:37:59 <sipa> *represented
 815 2014-01-18 19:38:45 <ThomasV> indeed
 816 2014-01-18 19:39:04 <maaku> this way you make it a user tweakable performance setting, instead of an arbitrary tradeoff written into the structure
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 825 2014-01-18 19:46:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Erm, what's with #3555?
 826 2014-01-18 19:46:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why does it consist of 5,109 commits?
 827 2014-01-18 19:47:03 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: github fuckup
 828 2014-01-18 19:47:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah.
 829 2014-01-18 19:47:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Are there actually 5k commits in the git tree now?
 830 2014-01-18 19:47:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or is it just that it's displaying incorrectly?
 831 2014-01-18 19:47:32 <sipa> it did the same with the previous leveldb subtree merges, after merging
 832 2014-01-18 19:47:34 <sipa> no clue
 833 2014-01-18 19:47:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Heh, I can think of one way to find out
 834 2014-01-18 19:47:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|git fetch upstream
 835 2014-01-18 19:48:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Gah, I thought I'd opened Git Bash
 836 2014-01-18 19:49:11 <sipa> i just got highlighted in a random primecoin commit too
 837 2014-01-18 19:49:13 <sipa> i think it's related
 838 2014-01-18 19:49:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Looks like a false alarm:
 839 2014-01-18 19:49:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/YazuAqBV
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 842 2014-01-18 19:51:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, I wonder if `git rebase` retains commits as signed?
 843 2014-01-18 19:53:48 <sipa> of course not
 844 2014-01-18 19:53:57 <sipa> it changes the commit id, the signature cannot remain valid
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 847 2014-01-18 19:56:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Interestingly, I don't see an option to sign the new commits
 848 2014-01-18 19:57:07 <sipa> git commit -S
 849 2014-01-18 19:57:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Yes, but git rebase doesn't have the -S option
 850 2014-01-18 19:57:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(at least not according to the help page...)
 851 2014-01-18 19:57:43 <sipa> you can use git commit --amend -S
 852 2014-01-18 19:57:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|--amend?
 853 2014-01-18 19:58:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Didn't know about that one
 854 2014-01-18 19:58:04 <sipa> yes, modify an existing commit
 855 2014-01-18 19:58:10 <sipa> it's what rebase is built on top of
 856 2014-01-18 19:58:27 <sipa> also allows you to change the author or committer of a commit, or the timestamp
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 858 2014-01-18 19:58:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Interesting
 859 2014-01-18 19:58:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Can you only amend the last commit? (guessing yes)
 860 2014-01-18 19:59:42 <sipa> yes
 861 2014-01-18 20:00:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So how would one go about rebasing two signed commits?
 862 2014-01-18 20:00:12 <sipa> use git rebase, and choose 'edit' for each commit
 863 2014-01-18 20:00:15 <sipa> git rebase -i
 864 2014-01-18 20:00:25 <sipa> then you get a view with each commit in turn being replayed
 865 2014-01-18 20:00:36 <sipa> and you can amend it before continuing the rebase
 866 2014-01-18 20:00:51 <sipa> you can of course also do it manually
 867 2014-01-18 20:01:07 <sipa> first resetting to the master you want to rebase on
 868 2014-01-18 20:01:19 <sipa> and then cherry-pick the to-be-committed commits there
 869 2014-01-18 20:01:26 <sipa> and amending them before cherry-picking the next
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 871 2014-01-18 20:02:55 <lechuga__> ugh any1 know how to pull a new branch from a repo you previously cloned
 872 2014-01-18 20:03:03 <lechuga__> but the new branch happened post-clone
 873 2014-01-18 20:03:34 <sipa> git fetch upstream
 874 2014-01-18 20:03:38 <sipa> git checkout branchname
 875 2014-01-18 20:03:46 <lechuga__> sipa savin the day again
 876 2014-01-18 20:03:56 <lechuga__> ty
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 879 2014-01-18 20:06:16 <lechuga__> oh wait thats not my issue
 880 2014-01-18 20:06:29 <lechuga__> i cloned a repo in gitorious into my own repo
 881 2014-01-18 20:06:43 <lechuga__> and original repo has a new branch
 882 2014-01-18 20:06:47 Meistarin has left ("Closing Window")
 883 2014-01-18 20:06:52 <lechuga__> that i want in my new remote repo on gitorious
 884 2014-01-18 20:07:12 <lechuga__> i guess i could re-clone
 885 2014-01-18 20:07:19 <lechuga__> but there must be a right way to deal with this
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 887 2014-01-18 20:11:31 <lechuga__> hmm
 888 2014-01-18 20:11:41 <lechuga__> i think i just did it with: git pull repourl ref
 889 2014-01-18 20:11:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wait, wth?
 890 2014-01-18 20:12:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|People have sent over 1,300 BTC to a trash address?
 891 2014-01-18 20:12:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|1CounterpartyXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXUWLpVr o_O
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 893 2014-01-18 20:12:29 <jcorgan> create a local branch, then push that to your own remote repo
 894 2014-01-18 20:13:03 Goonie has joined
 895 2014-01-18 20:13:06 <jcorgan> michagogo|cloud: that's a "proof of burn" scheme to create a new coin
 896 2014-01-18 20:13:40 <Goonie> jgarzik: Bitpay UX has become not so good lately...
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 901 2014-01-18 20:17:10 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|cringes
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 905 2014-01-18 20:18:14 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: a fool and his money ...
 906 2014-01-18 20:18:24 <jcorgan> yeah, same here. But at least the rest of our bitcoin is worth 1/100th of 1% more.
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 911 2014-01-18 20:40:17 <zapsoda> Is there a way to drain all the money from a account?  I tried just saying sendfrom(<account>, <address>, getbalance(<account>)) but then the transaction fee leaves me with a negative balance
 912 2014-01-18 20:41:05 <sipa> what do you intend to accomplish?
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 914 2014-01-18 20:44:16 <maaku> zapsoda: that is the correct behavior
 915 2014-01-18 20:45:05 <maaku> if it annoys you, use the move command to move positive balance from somewhere else to cancel out the fee
 916 2014-01-18 20:45:21 <zapsoda> I want to drain the account without having a negative balance, All I can think of is hardcoding the transaction fee but if there is a way around that I prefer to have it find the fee or somthing
 917 2014-01-18 20:46:13 <zapsoda> sipa, I want to have 0 coins left on that account after I use the sendfrom command
 918 2014-01-18 20:46:14 <sipa> you understand that accounts are just numbers, right?
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 920 2014-01-18 20:46:36 <sipa> you don't need to interact with the bitcoin network at all to change them
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 922 2014-01-18 20:46:45 <sipa> just use the move command
 923 2014-01-18 20:46:53 <sipa> which locally moves coins from one account to another
 924 2014-01-18 20:47:07 <sipa> sorry, moves *balance* from one account to another
 925 2014-01-18 20:47:11 <sipa> without affecting the coins
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 927 2014-01-18 20:47:21 <zapsoda> I understand that much, But I'm having accounts keep users coins apart so when they withdraw their coins I want to remove all the coins without myself paying the transaction fee
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 929 2014-01-18 20:47:45 <sipa> ah, i see
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 931 2014-01-18 20:47:59 <sipa> you want sort of a "i specify the total transaction value, including fee"
 932 2014-01-18 20:48:04 <sipa> that's been suggested before
 933 2014-01-18 20:48:10 <sipa> but not implemented, afaik
 934 2014-01-18 20:48:38 <maaku> zapsoda: that's why you see many sites setting fixed fees
 935 2014-01-18 20:51:24 <zapsoda> Ok, Thanks sipa
 936 2014-01-18 20:51:36 <zapsoda> I guess thats what ill do
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 994 2014-01-18 22:13:57 <Goonie> What's the concensus of the switch of default from BTC to mBTC? Is it desirable?
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 998 2014-01-18 22:14:46 <sipa> why "switch" ?
 999 2014-01-18 22:15:02 <sipa> we didn't abandon the us dollar and moved to cents, did we?
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1001 2014-01-18 22:15:43 <Goonie> sipa: No. But actually I've never seen a bank that would display dollar in units of cents.
1002 2014-01-18 22:16:22 <sipa> true
1003 2014-01-18 22:18:31 <Goonie> sipa: My question is if a new user downloads a wallet app and it shows mBTC as default will he immediately "get it"?
1004 2014-01-18 22:18:43 smash_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1005 2014-01-18 22:19:17 <Goonie> For example, when he buys $500 worth of Bitcoins and receives 400 rather than 0.4 -- will he be confused?
1006 2014-01-18 22:22:30 <bbdude> Goonie, I don't think most new users get bitcoins in general
1007 2014-01-18 22:23:01 <Goonie> Well for example they go to a meetup and buy some.
1008 2014-01-18 22:24:57 CheckDavid has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1009 2014-01-18 22:25:02 <bbdude> perhaps misled would be a better term, and once bitcoin settles and becomes more adopted, we'll have a better grasp on what the baseline denomination will be
1010 2014-01-18 22:25:41 <bbdude> I think there's definitely bound to be confusion this early on for sure
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1013 2014-01-18 22:27:40 <sipa> Goonie: i think bitcoin-qt already uses mBTC by default
1014 2014-01-18 22:27:55 <sipa> not sure though, i haven't used the gui in along time
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1016 2014-01-18 22:28:44 <jcorgan> i'd vote that if we do it, we go much further.  there are currencies like the Korean Won or the Japanese Yen that have 4-5 digits in prices for everday purchases
1017 2014-01-18 22:28:45 <bbdude> We've got a lot of folk still using BTC, and if BTC value stays below 1000 USD using mBTC will feel a little weird
1018 2014-01-18 22:29:05 <bbdude> Actually I take that back
1019 2014-01-18 22:29:35 <sipa> people indeed prefer digits before the dot over digits behind it
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1021 2014-01-18 22:35:04 <Goonie> where does bitcoin-qt store its settings? I'd expect ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf, but apparently it doesn't
1022 2014-01-18 22:35:33 <sipa> no, there's some qt thing for settings
1023 2014-01-18 22:35:44 <sipa> that stores it in a platform dependent place
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1025 2014-01-18 22:36:28 <Goonie> I use Ubuntu
1026 2014-01-18 22:36:58 <sipa> ~/.config/something iirc
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1030 2014-01-18 22:40:55 <maaku> bbdude: a switch to XBT = uBTC equally likely I think
1031 2014-01-18 22:41:59 <Goonie> sipa: Thanks, found it. Removed the config and will now try a recent version for what is the default.
1032 2014-01-18 22:42:26 <sipa> Goonie: maybe it's only in git head
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1040 2014-01-18 22:51:16 <jcorgan> maaku: +1 for uBTC
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1043 2014-01-18 22:52:17 <Goonie> Is this a known error (when compiling)?
1044 2014-01-18 22:52:17 <Goonie> ../../../src/qt/libbitcoinqt.a(libbitcoinqt_a-guiutil.o): In function `GUIUtil::isDust(QString const&, long long)':
1045 2014-01-18 22:52:17 <Goonie> /home/aschildbach/dev/workspace/bitcoin/src/qt/guiutil.cpp:188: undefined reference to `CTxOut::CTxOut(long long, CScript)'
1046 2014-01-18 22:52:17 <Goonie> ../../../src/qt/libbitcoinqt.a(libbitcoinqt_a-paymentserver.o): In function `PaymentServer::processPaymentRequest(PaymentRequestPlus&, QList<SendCoinsRecipient>&)':
1047 2014-01-18 22:52:17 <Goonie> /home/aschildbach/dev/workspace/bitcoin/src/qt/paymentserver.cpp:460: undefined reference to `CTxOut::CTxOut(long long, CScript)'
1048 2014-01-18 22:52:18 <Goonie> collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
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1050 2014-01-18 22:52:44 <Goonie> (its git master)
1051 2014-01-18 22:55:48 <sipa> Goonie: try a make clean first
1052 2014-01-18 22:56:31 <Goonie> Ah damn. This make clean should really be documented. Guess I'm running into this issue for the 3rd time now.
1053 2014-01-18 22:57:19 <jcorgan> $5 Starbucks coffee == 6250 XBT, with a 100 XBT transaction fee, and dust outputs are <54 XBT
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1057 2014-01-18 23:08:19 <maaku> jcorgan: and that's a normal-sized currency amount for most of the world
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1063 2014-01-18 23:14:19 * phillipsjk took to long to realize those were current figures.
1064 2014-01-18 23:15:52 <phillipsjk> In in the US gas prices are 4 digit.
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1068 2014-01-18 23:18:09 <phillipsjk> One benefit of 1 XTC == 1 µBTC is that not everybody has that symbol on their keyboard. :D
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1070 2014-01-18 23:19:03 <scoofy> that's generally abbreviated as 'u'
1071 2014-01-18 23:19:06 <scoofy> for this reason
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1073 2014-01-18 23:20:16 <phillipsjk> It strikes me as a work-around for US-keyboards, not a standard.
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1075 2014-01-18 23:20:56 <phillipsjk> In electronics we use mew when using pencil/paper.
1076 2014-01-18 23:21:28 <jcorgan> is there any actual momentum to getting XBT standardized by ISO, or is it all just wishful thinking on our part
1077 2014-01-18 23:21:42 <phillipsjk> Captchas don't work when you try to type those symbols too :P
1078 2014-01-18 23:22:31 <phillipsjk> jcorgan, why not both?
1079 2014-01-18 23:22:33 <scoofy> personally i will not use XBT anywhere
1080 2014-01-18 23:22:55 <scoofy> except maybe when referring some exchange that actually uses that
1081 2014-01-18 23:24:14 <scoofy> but then... it's some external organization trying to enforce some set of rules that were created before cryptocurrencies even existed?
1082 2014-01-18 23:26:36 <jcorgan> individuals/organizations are of course free to ignore ISO, but it does turn out that voluntary standardization of things can save everyone effort by allowing interoperability
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1084 2014-01-18 23:27:44 <sipa> XBT is already being used as BTC, no?
1085 2014-01-18 23:28:08 <jcorgan> i've been seeing it used more and more, but usually as == 1BTC
1086 2014-01-18 23:29:30 <jcorgan> so a way to solve the decimal problem and the lack of ISO standard currency abbreviation would be to get XBT as == 1uBTC
1087 2014-01-18 23:29:57 <jcorgan> it also fits nicely with the fact that ISO currencies all have only 2 digits after the decimal, which for XBT would mean 1 satoshi
1088 2014-01-18 23:30:06 <Luke-Jr> someone is using XBT as mBTC
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1090 2014-01-18 23:30:46 <Luke-Jr> tamas IIRC
1091 2014-01-18 23:30:54 <scoofy> well there's alread enough confusion with BTC/mBTC/uBTC... confuse it even more with XBT=1BTC=1mBTC=1uBTC ?
1092 2014-01-18 23:31:15 <scoofy> it's like trying to shoehorn something to a ruleset that it was not meant to fit
1093 2014-01-18 23:31:18 <sipa> XBT = cryptocurrency, undefined unit
1094 2014-01-18 23:31:20 <Luke-Jr> (BitsOfProof)
1095 2014-01-18 23:31:23 <jcorgan> well, that would be a case for getting it through a widely recognized standards body
1096 2014-01-18 23:32:13 <scoofy> so 1 XBT = 1 BTC / 1 mBTC / 1 uBTC / 1 satoshi, depending on the circumstance. I see.
1097 2014-01-18 23:32:31 <jcorgan> scoofy: yes, that is the case that has arisen due to lack of attention to this
1098 2014-01-18 23:32:41 <Luke-Jr> we should say 1 XBT = 1 TBC to throw ISO off
1099 2014-01-18 23:32:43 <Luke-Jr> <.<
1100 2014-01-18 23:32:45 <scoofy> that's kinda messed up...
1101 2014-01-18 23:33:35 <jcorgan> an noone that i know of has tried to represent XBT as a satoshi, so i'm not sure what the last part of that was
1102 2014-01-18 23:35:35 <Goonie> sipa: If I'm not mistaken, current master is still at BTC by default.
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1104 2014-01-18 23:38:26 <sipa> Goonie: ok, i may have misremembered something about changing it
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