1 2014-01-21 00:00:42 <shesek> oh damn it, it appears like people are starting to use Bitrated to _help_ them with their scams
2 2014-01-21 00:00:48 sassamo has joined
3 2014-01-21 00:00:50 <shesek> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423843.0
4 2014-01-21 00:01:51 <jakov> fuck
5 2014-01-21 00:01:54 <shesek> I guess people find a way to abuse everything for their scams
6 2014-01-21 00:02:39 <jakov> that not using bitrated
7 2014-01-21 00:02:45 <jakov> just abusing the good name of bitrated
8 2014-01-21 00:02:46 <shesek> well, the Bitrated brand
9 2014-01-21 00:02:59 Coincourse has joined
10 2014-01-21 00:03:01 <jakov> like if you get an email from 'google' or 'lloyds bank'
11 2014-01-21 00:03:36 <shesek> still awful, it really sucks people are using a tool that should help fight scam to facilitate their scam attempts and make them look more legitimate
12 2014-01-21 00:03:37 sassamo_ has joined
13 2014-01-21 00:04:10 jacob___ has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 26.0/20131205075310])
14 2014-01-21 00:04:26 <jakov> at first thought i thought it would be something like the arbitrator and seller being the same person
15 2014-01-21 00:05:14 vigilyn_ is now known as vigilyn
16 2014-01-21 00:05:18 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
17 2014-01-21 00:05:22 <jakov> oh their email is @bitrated.com
18 2014-01-21 00:05:27 <jakov> yeah thats kinda annoying
19 2014-01-21 00:05:33 <shesek> well, no, not yet. though I'm sure they'll start doing that too :\
20 2014-01-21 00:05:56 coeus_ has joined
21 2014-01-21 00:06:00 <shesek> email's from address is really not reliable and can be spoofed rather easily
22 2014-01-21 00:06:18 <shesek> though setting up DKIM and SPF should somewhat help prevent that
23 2014-01-21 00:07:03 debiantoruser has joined
24 2014-01-21 00:07:17 sassamo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
25 2014-01-21 00:10:08 alex_fun has joined
26 2014-01-21 00:10:28 <alex_fun> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qqmr4/ghashiocexio_and_doublespending_against_betcoin/
27 2014-01-21 00:10:43 <alex_fun> is it true cex.io double spent its bets in casino?
28 2014-01-21 00:10:52 <alex_fun> and how can such thing work?
29 2014-01-21 00:11:33 sassamo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
30 2014-01-21 00:12:04 <maaku> alex_fun: yes, the responsible parties have been sacked, and the people who sacked have been sacked, and #bitcoin
31 2014-01-21 00:12:37 <alex_fun> maaku but that means they do it again and again?
32 2014-01-21 00:12:49 <alex_fun> is there some improvement to fix it?
33 2014-01-21 00:13:02 <alex_fun> as now info how to do it is public
34 2014-01-21 00:13:03 <jakov> alex_fun the security assumptions that bitcoin relies on are not valid
35 2014-01-21 00:13:06 <jakov> havent been valid for a while now
36 2014-01-21 00:13:16 <jakov> the assumption about decentralised mining power
37 2014-01-21 00:13:21 <alex_fun> jakov can you expand?
38 2014-01-21 00:13:30 ThomasV has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
39 2014-01-21 00:13:30 smash_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
40 2014-01-21 00:13:36 <jakov> bitcoin stops doublespending by assuming most miners are honest
41 2014-01-21 00:13:40 <alex_fun> yes
42 2014-01-21 00:13:45 <alex_fun> that I understand
43 2014-01-21 00:13:47 <jakov> ghash is a large mining pool and was dishonest in that case
44 2014-01-21 00:13:51 <alex_fun> yes
45 2014-01-21 00:13:51 <jakov> so they could doublespend
46 2014-01-21 00:14:05 <alex_fun> but why they did just small double spent against casino
47 2014-01-21 00:14:05 <lianj> jakov: but you could just wait 6 confirmationsâ¦
48 2014-01-21 00:14:09 <lianj> or more
49 2014-01-21 00:14:13 <alex_fun> as they rep is tarnished
50 2014-01-21 00:14:21 <alex_fun> would they not go for max in this case?
51 2014-01-21 00:14:39 <jakov> alex_fun its gets harder the more confirmations you wait
52 2014-01-21 00:14:41 one_zero has joined
53 2014-01-21 00:14:44 <jakov> the gambling sites use 0 confirms
54 2014-01-21 00:14:49 <alex_fun> hehe how silly
55 2014-01-21 00:14:54 <alex_fun> 0 confirms
56 2014-01-21 00:14:58 <jakov> so if ghash has 40% mining power they can doublespend 40% of the time
57 2014-01-21 00:14:58 <alex_fun> but
58 2014-01-21 00:15:05 <lianj> so its not bitcoins fault
59 2014-01-21 00:15:07 <alex_fun> it has big implication
60 2014-01-21 00:15:10 <jakov> this is all in the original satoshi paper
61 2014-01-21 00:15:25 <alex_fun> as before people was saying that ecommerce should rely on 0 conf
62 2014-01-21 00:15:25 <alex_fun> ;)
63 2014-01-21 00:15:28 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
64 2014-01-21 00:15:44 <alex_fun> say that btc is not slower than rest when 0 conf is used
65 2014-01-21 00:15:44 <jakov> okay but consider how much it costs to get 40% of mining power
66 2014-01-21 00:16:02 <jakov> just to doublespend for a $5 coffee
67 2014-01-21 00:16:04 <alex_fun> jakov: some just collide when diff is high they gain more via colliding
68 2014-01-21 00:16:11 <jakov> if you're buying anything bigger you wait for more confirms
69 2014-01-21 00:16:16 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
70 2014-01-21 00:16:21 <alex_fun> jakov: true
71 2014-01-21 00:16:36 <jakov> i saw some of the drug marketplaces wait for 7 confirms
72 2014-01-21 00:16:47 <alex_fun> no wonder as they are smart :D
73 2014-01-21 00:16:55 <jakov> like they took satoshi's conservative 6 confirm estimate and decided even thats not good enough
74 2014-01-21 00:17:02 <jakov> hehe
75 2014-01-21 00:17:26 <jakov> also i guess by the time the drugs get shipped many more confirms will happen
76 2014-01-21 00:17:37 <alex_fun> jakov: some people claim double spent can be done even with 25% of total hash?
77 2014-01-21 00:17:38 <jakov> bitstamp on the other hand use 3 confirms, presumably they compromised to help high frequency arbitrators
78 2014-01-21 00:18:00 <jakov> alex_fun its possible to doublespend with any amount of total hash
79 2014-01-21 00:18:02 debiantoruser has joined
80 2014-01-21 00:18:19 <alex_fun> is there is simple math formula to calculate chance of double spend with variables been A=hash% B=confirms?
81 2014-01-21 00:18:20 <jakov> you can doublespend a 0 confirm tx 1% of the time if you have 1% hash power
82 2014-01-21 00:18:23 <jakov> yeah
83 2014-01-21 00:18:23 <jakov> sec
84 2014-01-21 00:18:27 <alex_fun> ty
85 2014-01-21 00:18:28 <jakov> theres a website
86 2014-01-21 00:18:40 <jakov> its not simple, involves some summations, but the javascript does it all
87 2014-01-21 00:18:45 <alex_fun> cool
88 2014-01-21 00:19:08 jav has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
89 2014-01-21 00:19:13 <jakov> cant seem to find it
90 2014-01-21 00:19:49 <alex_fun> hmm well if u know entire formula I can ask in #math :D
91 2014-01-21 00:20:08 <jakov> its in the satoshi paper
92 2014-01-21 00:20:26 <alex_fun> but satoshi paper is pdf I cant copy paste from it
93 2014-01-21 00:20:29 <alex_fun> LOl
94 2014-01-21 00:20:35 <alex_fun> ok I try something
95 2014-01-21 00:21:17 <alex_fun> is it formula on page 7?
96 2014-01-21 00:21:34 <jakov> i forgot, he writes some c code for it
97 2014-01-21 00:21:45 <jakov> dont bother trying to use the math there
98 2014-01-21 00:21:49 <alex_fun> why
99 2014-01-21 00:22:13 <alex_fun> its better to understand the math
100 2014-01-21 00:22:20 <alex_fun> then its sure thing
101 2014-01-21 00:22:48 <alex_fun> jakov: you can doublespend a 0 confirm tx 1% of the time if you have 1% hash power - then dices would be so bust
102 2014-01-21 00:22:52 <alex_fun> if they use 0 confirm
103 2014-01-21 00:22:58 <alex_fun> lol
104 2014-01-21 00:23:10 <jakov> found it alex_fun https://people.xiph.org/~greg/attack_success.html
105 2014-01-21 00:23:27 <alex_fun> ty
106 2014-01-21 00:23:30 <jakov> alex_fun yeah but you actually have to make a profit
107 2014-01-21 00:23:40 <jakov> so the 99% of the times you dont doublespend you lose money mostly
108 2014-01-21 00:23:43 <jakov> on average
109 2014-01-21 00:24:05 <alex_fun> jakov: `you can doublespend a 0 confirm tx 1% of the time if you have 1% hash power` so say when I use 6 confirms what are the chances of double spend then
110 2014-01-21 00:24:14 <jakov> put it into the website
111 2014-01-21 00:24:22 <alex_fun> jakov: most dices are 3.5% house advantage
112 2014-01-21 00:24:30 <alex_fun> so even 4% hash works then
113 2014-01-21 00:24:32 <jakov> 6 confirms can be reversed 50% of the time with 40% hash power
114 2014-01-21 00:25:36 leochill has joined
115 2014-01-21 00:26:11 <alex_fun> jakov what I mean 0 confirm 1% hash 1% chance - when its 6 confirms is it 1/6 % chance?
116 2014-01-21 00:26:23 <jakov> no
117 2014-01-21 00:26:40 <jakov> it drops exponentially
118 2014-01-21 00:26:45 <jakov> its something like 1e-10
119 2014-01-21 00:27:10 <alex_fun> it drops by how much each confirm?
120 2014-01-21 00:27:18 macboz has joined
121 2014-01-21 00:27:30 testnode9 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
122 2014-01-21 00:27:31 <jakov> i dont know you can easily work it out from that website
123 2014-01-21 00:27:36 <alex_fun> oki
124 2014-01-21 00:27:39 ralphthe1inja has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
125 2014-01-21 00:27:46 charlesy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
126 2014-01-21 00:27:56 christo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
127 2014-01-21 00:28:04 <alex_fun> AttackerSuccessProbability(1,0)=1
128 2014-01-21 00:28:04 <alex_fun> AttackerSuccessProbability(1,6)=1
129 2014-01-21 00:28:07 <alex_fun> hmm
130 2014-01-21 00:28:26 <petertodd> You don't even need to hack GHash.IO to pull off a double-spend like that you know, just use the fact that not all pools are willing to even accept the same tx's into thier mempools.
131 2014-01-21 00:28:55 <jakov> alex_fun you've put in 100% hash power
132 2014-01-21 00:28:56 <petertodd> e.g. Eligius and some others won't accept payments to the batteryhorse address after that dust spam thing.
133 2014-01-21 00:29:00 <jakov> 1% hash power is 0.01
134 2014-01-21 00:29:20 <alex_fun> hey petertodd did u made video called I know who is satoshi? :D
135 2014-01-21 00:29:24 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
136 2014-01-21 00:29:47 <petertodd> alex_fun: why would I call attention to my secret identity?
137 2014-01-21 00:29:53 <alex_fun> hehhee
138 2014-01-21 00:30:01 <alex_fun> lol
139 2014-01-21 00:30:11 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
140 2014-01-21 00:30:12 <alex_fun> jakov ok recalculating npw
141 2014-01-21 00:30:14 <alex_fun> now
142 2014-01-21 00:30:27 johnsoft has joined
143 2014-01-21 00:30:33 <alex_fun> AttackerSuccessProbability(0.001,6)=2.51288e-16
144 2014-01-21 00:30:36 <alex_fun> what is e?
145 2014-01-21 00:31:01 <alex_fun> some really small number? like 0.00000000000000000000000000 something?
146 2014-01-21 00:31:16 <jakov> yes thats scientific notation
147 2014-01-21 00:31:45 <alex_fun> but what does it mean?
148 2014-01-21 00:31:49 <shesek> petertodd, did you see what I wrote above about what people started doing with Bitrated's brand? this is really terrible :\
149 2014-01-21 00:31:52 <shesek> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423843.0
150 2014-01-21 00:32:44 <petertodd> shesek: +1 on DKIM and SPF, but yeah, not much you can do to stop such scams
151 2014-01-21 00:33:06 <jakov> alex_fun thats the probability of a successful doublespend
152 2014-01-21 00:34:11 <shesek> I didn't see that one coming... abusing Bitrated to help them scam
153 2014-01-21 00:34:36 <shesek> I don't understand how anyone could trust an email like that without going over Bitrated and seeing how it should work
154 2014-01-21 00:34:41 <alex_fun> jakov oki
155 2014-01-21 00:34:53 <shesek> reading the FAQ or trying the interface should clearly show them that its not how it works
156 2014-01-21 00:35:14 <alex_fun> AttackerSuccessProbability(0.001,0)=1
157 2014-01-21 00:35:24 <alex_fun> 100% jakov
158 2014-01-21 00:36:15 <jcorgan> did the guy actually send the BTC?
159 2014-01-21 00:36:34 <jakov> sadly yes
160 2014-01-21 00:36:53 <jakov> he says its the third time hes been scammed
161 2014-01-21 00:37:12 <jakov> i dont want to blame the victim but he should maybe start being much more careful
162 2014-01-21 00:37:27 <shesek> about $6500, I feel really bad for that guy
163 2014-01-21 00:37:40 <alex_fun> jakov AttackerSuccessProbability(0.001,0)=1
164 2014-01-21 00:37:40 oPen_syLar has joined
165 2014-01-21 00:37:40 oPen_syLar has quit (Changing host)
166 2014-01-21 00:37:40 oPen_syLar has joined
167 2014-01-21 00:37:51 <alex_fun> means 1% can double spend 0 confirms all the time
168 2014-01-21 00:38:22 <jcorgan> blame is not a scalar; the scammer is to be blamed for his actions (scamming), and person scammed is to be blamed for his actions (serial poor judgement)
169 2014-01-21 00:38:47 <jakov> i know i feel bad for him too
170 2014-01-21 00:38:57 <jakov> is blame a tensor then?
171 2014-01-21 00:39:57 <jcorgan> i do feel bad for the guy, though--hopefully the pain of getting scammed is enough to make him more paranoid
172 2014-01-21 00:39:59 <jakov> i dont think the person being scammed has any blame, they should just be more careful, like when police warn you to not leave valuables in plain view they're not blaming you for getting them stolen
173 2014-01-21 00:40:16 <jakov> jcorgan he says its his third scam, though hopefully not as large
174 2014-01-21 00:40:33 <jakov> i mean, hopefully much larger
175 2014-01-21 00:40:38 testnode9 has joined
176 2014-01-21 00:40:42 <jakov> hopefully the other two scams were for $1 or something
177 2014-01-21 00:41:42 <shesek> btw, I was also notified today by someone else about the very same scam, though he didn't fall for it
178 2014-01-21 00:41:43 <alex_fun> AttackerSuccessProbability(0.3,6)=0.132111
179 2014-01-21 00:41:48 <alex_fun> works nice
180 2014-01-21 00:41:53 <alex_fun> ty jakov
181 2014-01-21 00:43:48 charlesy has joined
182 2014-01-21 00:44:06 <jcorgan> unfortunately, scamming still pays off. every now and then i take a random read in my email spam folder and think, "who would possibly fall for that?", yet enough must, or they wouldn't do it
183 2014-01-21 00:45:07 leochill has quit (Quit: Leaving)
184 2014-01-21 00:45:24 <jakov> does anyone know the algorithm for choosing the articles posted in #bitcoin-news ?
185 2014-01-21 00:50:40 jps has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
186 2014-01-21 00:55:09 da2ce7 has joined
187 2014-01-21 00:55:31 alex_fun is now known as funky
188 2014-01-21 00:55:41 <funky> :P
189 2014-01-21 00:56:38 JZavala has joined
190 2014-01-21 01:01:48 <rdymac> what is Mike Hearn's user here?
191 2014-01-21 01:02:03 smash_ has joined
192 2014-01-21 01:05:35 <SomeoneWeird> rdymac, TD
193 2014-01-21 01:08:00 n0n0 has joined
194 2014-01-21 01:12:04 Brotox has joined
195 2014-01-21 01:12:50 Brotox has left ("Bored like fuck -,-")
196 2014-01-21 01:16:19 sacrelege has joined
197 2014-01-21 01:17:23 jakov has quit (Quit: Leaving)
198 2014-01-21 01:17:48 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
199 2014-01-21 01:19:26 smash_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
200 2014-01-21 01:21:20 n0n0 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
201 2014-01-21 01:23:46 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
202 2014-01-21 01:24:46 debiantoruser has joined
203 2014-01-21 01:25:17 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
204 2014-01-21 01:25:29 happening has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
205 2014-01-21 01:26:51 AusBitBank has joined
206 2014-01-21 01:31:02 <berndj> jcorgan, (1) sometimes paranoia makes people *more* vulnerable to scams, like when they say "i'll be real careful next time and only deal with solid, reputable people". guess who has a huge incentive to learn how to come across as solid and reputable? scammers
207 2014-01-21 01:32:05 <berndj> jcorgan, (2) it isn't just stupid people falling for email scams; it's also those 1 in a million people whose circumstances just happen to align with what the scam email presupposes
208 2014-01-21 01:32:39 <berndj> there's that 1-in-10000 guy who happens to have just send a video to his other mailbox, who gets an "alert: mailbox full" email 5 minutes later
209 2014-01-21 01:33:20 <berndj> ohcrap, sorry for chatterboxing the wrong #
210 2014-01-21 01:33:35 hmsimha has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
211 2014-01-21 01:38:18 smash_ has joined
212 2014-01-21 01:47:23 Lexa has quit (Quit: Quit)
213 2014-01-21 01:47:59 Lexa has joined
214 2014-01-21 01:51:44 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
215 2014-01-21 01:52:57 debiantoruser has joined
216 2014-01-21 01:57:38 b4epoche has joined
217 2014-01-21 01:58:19 Wertron has joined
218 2014-01-21 01:59:14 smash_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
219 2014-01-21 02:00:56 Wertron has quit (Quit: Saindo)
220 2014-01-21 02:01:14 b4epoche_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
221 2014-01-21 02:01:16 hydrogenesis has joined
222 2014-01-21 02:03:57 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
223 2014-01-21 02:04:00 Wertron has joined
224 2014-01-21 02:04:42 BNCatDIGISHELL has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
225 2014-01-21 02:05:18 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
226 2014-01-21 02:06:52 debiantoruser has joined
227 2014-01-21 02:07:10 n0n0 has joined
228 2014-01-21 02:10:06 nickler has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
229 2014-01-21 02:13:48 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
230 2014-01-21 02:15:04 debiantoruser has joined
231 2014-01-21 02:19:52 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
232 2014-01-21 02:20:32 FabianB has joined
233 2014-01-21 02:21:54 rastapopuloto has joined
234 2014-01-21 02:23:39 FabianB_ has joined
235 2014-01-21 02:25:12 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
236 2014-01-21 02:25:25 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
237 2014-01-21 02:26:12 BNCatDIGISHELL has joined
238 2014-01-21 02:26:57 debiantoruser has joined
239 2014-01-21 02:28:05 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
240 2014-01-21 02:29:17 melvster has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
241 2014-01-21 02:29:52 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
242 2014-01-21 02:30:44 NormDePloome has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
243 2014-01-21 02:30:52 smash_ has joined
244 2014-01-21 02:33:43 NormDePloome has joined
245 2014-01-21 02:34:37 BNCatDIGISHELL has quit (Quit: changing servers)
246 2014-01-21 02:37:50 BNCatDIGISHELL has joined
247 2014-01-21 02:40:32 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
248 2014-01-21 02:41:31 wallet42 has joined
249 2014-01-21 02:42:19 datagutt has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
250 2014-01-21 02:42:23 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
251 2014-01-21 02:43:29 ZG has joined
252 2014-01-21 02:43:56 debiantoruser has joined
253 2014-01-21 02:44:11 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
254 2014-01-21 02:46:19 Wertron has quit (Quit: Saindo)
255 2014-01-21 02:47:19 cysm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
256 2014-01-21 02:47:23 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
257 2014-01-21 02:48:09 rastapopuloto has left ()
258 2014-01-21 02:48:26 paracyst has joined
259 2014-01-21 02:48:27 cysm has joined
260 2014-01-21 02:50:56 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
261 2014-01-21 02:51:07 funky is now known as alex_fun
262 2014-01-21 02:52:23 ZG has quit (caktux!~caktux@dsl-173-248-230-158.acanac.net|Quit: ZG|caktux)
263 2014-01-21 02:52:35 alex_fun is now known as funky
264 2014-01-21 02:52:44 debiantoruser has joined
265 2014-01-21 02:53:23 nsh has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
266 2014-01-21 02:53:42 BNCatDIGISHELL has quit (Quit: changing servers)
267 2014-01-21 02:53:56 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
268 2014-01-21 02:54:12 <funky> I am looking at PUBKEY_ADDRESS and base58 but base 58 to text converter does not convert it properly to text
269 2014-01-21 02:56:40 BNCatDIGISHELL has joined
270 2014-01-21 03:00:26 Eiii has joined
271 2014-01-21 03:00:28 Application has joined
272 2014-01-21 03:01:40 smash_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
273 2014-01-21 03:03:50 Raccoon has joined
274 2014-01-21 03:04:55 smash_ has joined
275 2014-01-21 03:06:51 nsh has joined
276 2014-01-21 03:07:31 hmsimha has joined
277 2014-01-21 03:07:45 hydrogenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
278 2014-01-21 03:08:37 jps has joined
279 2014-01-21 03:10:08 <lechuga__> base58 is text
280 2014-01-21 03:10:53 <funky> well true it can only use 0 to 9 then its text
281 2014-01-21 03:11:28 tesserajk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
282 2014-01-21 03:11:34 hydrogenesis has joined
283 2014-01-21 03:11:52 <lechuga__> how do you come to realize there is a problem
284 2014-01-21 03:13:08 <funky> so SetData(Params().Base58Prefix(CChainParams::PUBKEY_ADDRESS), &id, 20);
285 2014-01-21 03:13:25 <funky> means btc used base59 20?
286 2014-01-21 03:13:28 <funky> uses
287 2014-01-21 03:14:04 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
288 2014-01-21 03:15:17 <funky> Bitcoin uses its own representation format, known as base58check.
289 2014-01-21 03:15:44 debiantoruser has joined
290 2014-01-21 03:16:56 askmike has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
291 2014-01-21 03:18:23 hydrogenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
292 2014-01-21 03:18:35 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
293 2014-01-21 03:18:56 johnsoft has joined
294 2014-01-21 03:19:02 AriseChikun has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
295 2014-01-21 03:19:58 <funky> lechuga__: I wonder how wallet makes letter
296 2014-01-21 03:20:16 <funky> from base58check
297 2014-01-21 03:20:28 <funky> aka how 20 in base58check becomes letter :D
298 2014-01-21 03:20:36 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
299 2014-01-21 03:20:42 AriseChikun has joined
300 2014-01-21 03:20:46 WaffleDoodle has joined
301 2014-01-21 03:24:17 jps has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
302 2014-01-21 03:25:39 Sleepnbum has joined
303 2014-01-21 03:26:03 Sleepnbum is now known as Guest62671
304 2014-01-21 03:27:09 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
305 2014-01-21 03:27:54 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
306 2014-01-21 03:29:27 Charlie has joined
307 2014-01-21 03:30:21 brisque has joined
308 2014-01-21 03:30:26 swulf-- has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
309 2014-01-21 03:32:12 wallet42 has joined
310 2014-01-21 03:38:08 n0n0 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
311 2014-01-21 03:42:04 Subo1977_ has joined
312 2014-01-21 03:42:20 Krellan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
313 2014-01-21 03:43:42 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
314 2014-01-21 03:44:14 n0n0 has joined
315 2014-01-21 03:45:22 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
316 2014-01-21 03:45:35 smash_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
317 2014-01-21 03:45:35 CheckDavid has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
318 2014-01-21 03:47:22 funky is now known as ugtarmas
319 2014-01-21 03:51:47 mattco has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
320 2014-01-21 03:52:04 n0n0 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
321 2014-01-21 03:53:07 ugtarmas is now known as funky
322 2014-01-21 03:54:20 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
323 2014-01-21 04:00:03 wavelet has left ("Leaving")
324 2014-01-21 04:05:47 porquilho has joined
325 2014-01-21 04:08:07 monolithik has joined
326 2014-01-21 04:09:22 fanquake has joined
327 2014-01-21 04:14:09 safa has joined
328 2014-01-21 04:16:23 [Author] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
329 2014-01-21 04:17:00 justanotheruser1 is now known as justanotheruser
330 2014-01-21 04:17:18 jddebug has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
331 2014-01-21 04:17:19 [Author] has joined
332 2014-01-21 04:18:33 PonziCrash has joined
333 2014-01-21 04:25:38 freewil has joined
334 2014-01-21 04:27:10 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
335 2014-01-21 04:28:38 debiantoruser has joined
336 2014-01-21 04:30:10 OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
337 2014-01-21 04:30:25 [Author] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
338 2014-01-21 04:32:01 jddebug- has joined
339 2014-01-21 04:32:18 [Author] has joined
340 2014-01-21 04:32:26 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
341 2014-01-21 04:36:55 jddebug- has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
342 2014-01-21 04:37:41 n0n0 has joined
343 2014-01-21 04:37:56 jddebug has joined
344 2014-01-21 04:47:12 impulse has joined
345 2014-01-21 04:49:26 brisque has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
346 2014-01-21 04:50:25 brisque has joined
347 2014-01-21 04:50:28 brisque has quit (Client Quit)
348 2014-01-21 04:50:47 brisque has joined
349 2014-01-21 04:52:00 FabianB has joined
350 2014-01-21 04:52:12 zeiris has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
351 2014-01-21 04:52:20 zeiris has joined
352 2014-01-21 04:54:25 cadaverr has left ("macbook pro 15 inch")
353 2014-01-21 04:56:28 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
354 2014-01-21 04:59:38 [7] has joined
355 2014-01-21 04:59:39 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
356 2014-01-21 05:01:53 macboz has joined
357 2014-01-21 05:03:05 btclovernick has joined
358 2014-01-21 05:03:31 eoss has joined
359 2014-01-21 05:09:16 OneFixt has joined
360 2014-01-21 05:13:38 Guest62671 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
361 2014-01-21 05:25:33 funky has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
362 2014-01-21 05:31:00 WaffleDoodle has quit (Quit: Client Exiting)
363 2014-01-21 05:31:27 PonziCrash has left ()
364 2014-01-21 05:32:16 monolithik has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
365 2014-01-21 05:39:10 crank has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
366 2014-01-21 05:40:02 crank has joined
367 2014-01-21 05:44:52 Cryo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
368 2014-01-21 05:45:03 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
369 2014-01-21 05:46:11 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
370 2014-01-21 05:46:19 iwilcox has joined
371 2014-01-21 05:46:40 iwilcox has left ("because")
372 2014-01-21 05:46:56 brson has joined
373 2014-01-21 05:47:36 debiantoruser has joined
374 2014-01-21 05:48:08 Vinnie_win has quit ()
375 2014-01-21 05:52:38 d3p0rt3d has quit (Read error: No route to host)
376 2014-01-21 05:57:33 Charlie has left ()
377 2014-01-21 05:57:56 swulf-- has joined
378 2014-01-21 05:58:00 <swulf--> is it typical convention to call "the block at height 1" == the genesis block?
379 2014-01-21 05:58:00 cysm has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
380 2014-01-21 05:58:44 <swulf--> or... a blockchain of height 1 consists only of the genesis block .. ?
381 2014-01-21 05:59:47 d3p0rt3d has joined
382 2014-01-21 06:00:01 <brisque> the genesis block is sort of block zero. it's not counted by the client at any rate.
383 2014-01-21 06:00:40 porquilho is now known as MajorLong_is_Tro
384 2014-01-21 06:00:46 MajorLong_is_Tro is now known as MajorLong_Troll
385 2014-01-21 06:01:02 <swulf--> right, block 0.. but if you're talking about height or depth, is genesis still considered height=0 ?
386 2014-01-21 06:01:12 smash_ has joined
387 2014-01-21 06:01:18 MajorLong_Troll is now known as porquilho
388 2014-01-21 06:01:46 abrkn has joined
389 2014-01-21 06:02:50 <brisque> I can't imagine there'd be any reason for it to be considered any other way.
390 2014-01-21 06:03:18 <swulf--> that's what I figured, too. just wanted to be sure :)
391 2014-01-21 06:03:47 d3p0rt3d has quit (Quit: changing servers)
392 2014-01-21 06:04:19 <brisque> perhaps somebody else can back me up on that.
393 2014-01-21 06:04:31 cadaver has joined
394 2014-01-21 06:05:42 sacrelege has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
395 2014-01-21 06:07:55 <abrkn> swulf: i've been thinking about creating a cryptocurrency-lib, taking code from vbuterin/brainwallet/yours and organizing it better. any reason i should not? the vbuterin-code can do a lot, but the dependency graph is crazy. everything depends on everything
396 2014-01-21 06:08:12 b4epoche_ has joined
397 2014-01-21 06:08:26 <swulf--> abrkn: cryptocurrency-lib would be a collection of javascript utilities?
398 2014-01-21 06:08:39 btclovernick has quit (Quit: btclovernick)
399 2014-01-21 06:08:50 b4epoche has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
400 2014-01-21 06:09:08 <abrkn> swulf: yes. i want small modules that have unit tests
401 2014-01-21 06:09:17 <swulf--> i have no objection to something like that
402 2014-01-21 06:09:20 <swulf--> sounds useful
403 2014-01-21 06:09:20 <abrkn> swulf: to use in the browser, it should be easy to use browserify
404 2014-01-21 06:09:32 <swulf--> I think a great goal would be to make sure 100% of it works offline
405 2014-01-21 06:09:57 <brisque> please, whatever you do, replace the bloody mouse movement RNG everybody is set on using.
406 2014-01-21 06:10:09 <swulf--> don't forget to include ms-brainwallet.org too :)
407 2014-01-21 06:10:42 <abrkn> swulf: after using vbuterin/bitcoinjs-lib for a few weeks now i've determined that it cannot be used in production. one small typo somewhere and you might end up issuing deposit addresses to which you do not have the primary key (encoding errors), etc
408 2014-01-21 06:11:13 <swulf--> well, lots of people ARE using it (brainwallet.org ...)
409 2014-01-21 06:11:36 <brisque> swulf--: yeah, and it's a piece of software written by a known malicious actor. you should *not* trust it.
410 2014-01-21 06:11:47 <swulf--> :-O
411 2014-01-21 06:12:02 nessence has joined
412 2014-01-21 06:12:36 <abrkn> swulf: here's my go at bip32 https://github.com/justcoin/bitcoinjs-lib/blob/bip32/src/hdwallet.js
413 2014-01-21 06:12:39 <brisque> swulf--: the author was on here a week or so back asking for help speeding up his cracking of brainwallets. modifying the DNS to serve bad software some visitors is not out of the question.
414 2014-01-21 06:12:49 <abrkn> swulf: and tests https://github.com/justcoin/bitcoinjs-lib/blob/bip32/test/hdwallet.js
415 2014-01-21 06:12:58 <swulf--> that's insane
416 2014-01-21 06:13:02 <swulf--> abrkn: checking now
417 2014-01-21 06:13:25 M38K has joined
418 2014-01-21 06:13:53 <brisque> swulf--: just a bit, especially when so many people think it's known good.
419 2014-01-21 06:14:24 <swulf--> abrkn: your code looks nice and clean :)
420 2014-01-21 06:14:30 <abrkn> i think all the ".toHex", ".toBase58", etc should be removed. just keep "toBytes" and the library user can convert himself. would reduce code by -a lot-
421 2014-01-21 06:14:41 <swulf--> brisque: fwiw, it has been used by a lot of people for a long time with no published incidents
422 2014-01-21 06:14:57 <swulf--> abrkn: seems reasonable. your code, your decision on that one:)
423 2014-01-21 06:15:41 <brisque> swulf--: past performance is not indicative of future. it is in at least a little bit malicious, it pre fills the destination address in the transaction view to be the authors own. there's no notification about that, so people keep "donating" funds to it.
424 2014-01-21 06:15:54 <brisque> swulf--: and come on, the author is cracking the keys people create with it.
425 2014-01-21 06:16:00 <swulf--> sure
426 2014-01-21 06:16:01 <brisque> ;;balance 15ArtCgi3wmpQAAfYx4riaFmo4prJA4VsK
427 2014-01-21 06:16:07 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
428 2014-01-21 06:16:21 <brisque> eh?
429 2014-01-21 06:16:23 d3p0rt3d has joined
430 2014-01-21 06:16:24 <swulf--> brisque: my ms-brainwallet site prefills the destination with some charity's donation address :(
431 2014-01-21 06:16:35 <brisque> swulf--: why not just leave it empty?
432 2014-01-21 06:16:49 <swulf--> didn't cross my mind
433 2014-01-21 06:16:49 <abrkn> swulf: the number of times i've almost sent my money to the pre-filled. should be blank
434 2014-01-21 06:16:54 <swulf--> guess I could do that
435 2014-01-21 06:16:58 <brisque> people have sent.. 185BTC accidentally to the prefilled address.
436 2014-01-21 06:17:03 <swulf--> wow
437 2014-01-21 06:17:17 <brisque> plus whatever the guy has made in cracked brainwallets.
438 2014-01-21 06:17:18 <abrkn> yes, it's very annoying
439 2014-01-21 06:17:48 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
440 2014-01-21 06:17:56 mynameis has joined
441 2014-01-21 06:17:57 <brisque> it's malicious, negligent at best.
442 2014-01-21 06:18:27 <swulf--> damn, sorry. gotta run
443 2014-01-21 06:18:41 <swulf--> brisque: yeah, I agree. I'll update the code to leave the dest blank later today
444 2014-01-21 06:18:48 <brisque> swulf--: much appreciated.
445 2014-01-21 06:19:19 M38K has quit (Quit: Leaving)
446 2014-01-21 06:19:50 debiantoruser has joined
447 2014-01-21 06:20:47 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
448 2014-01-21 06:22:54 Arnavion has joined
449 2014-01-21 06:23:02 d3p0rt3d has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
450 2014-01-21 06:23:56 ThomasV has joined
451 2014-01-21 06:28:36 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
452 2014-01-21 06:30:40 Cryo has joined
453 2014-01-21 06:33:04 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
454 2014-01-21 06:35:13 soylentbomb has joined
455 2014-01-21 06:36:02 cysm has joined
456 2014-01-21 06:36:02 cysm has quit (Client Quit)
457 2014-01-21 06:36:22 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
458 2014-01-21 06:36:35 skydome has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
459 2014-01-21 06:36:38 cysm has joined
460 2014-01-21 06:42:01 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
461 2014-01-21 06:42:26 AtashiCon has joined
462 2014-01-21 06:43:57 spirals is now known as woshort_
463 2014-01-21 06:49:42 crank has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
464 2014-01-21 06:50:26 woshort_ is now known as wolon^c
465 2014-01-21 06:52:38 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
466 2014-01-21 06:57:12 ahbritto has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
467 2014-01-21 06:58:54 ralphthe1inja has joined
468 2014-01-21 06:59:21 AusBitBank has joined
469 2014-01-21 06:59:35 <jcorgan> is it documented anywhere how a BIP becomes a law? I'm sure it is rather differnt from Schoolhouse Rock.
470 2014-01-21 07:01:57 crank has joined
471 2014-01-21 07:03:17 Heimdall has quit (Quit: Leaving)
472 2014-01-21 07:03:22 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: there is no law
473 2014-01-21 07:03:51 <Diablo-D3> jcorgan: basically, you start by paying a bunch of congressmen a lot of money under the table
474 2014-01-21 07:04:08 <Diablo-D3> then the BIP is thrown out and replaced with industry-friendly wording
475 2014-01-21 07:04:19 <Diablo-D3> after that, the American people are fucked in the ass without lube.
476 2014-01-21 07:05:59 <SomeoneWeird> facepalm
477 2014-01-21 07:06:07 <jcorgan> lol. i'm just wondering about the fates of bip32, bip38, and bip39
478 2014-01-21 07:08:33 <Diablo-D3> SomeoneWeird: what? he asked dumb answer and got snark in return
479 2014-01-21 07:09:57 <jcorgan> um, to clarify my poor attempt at humor--how does a BIP go from "draft" to "accepted"?
480 2014-01-21 07:10:11 ahbritto has joined
481 2014-01-21 07:10:29 <Diablo-D3> jcorgan: the code for it is committed.
482 2014-01-21 07:10:32 wolon^c is now known as spirals
483 2014-01-21 07:10:32 <jcorgan> (I guess I should expect you youngins to get references to 70s culture)
484 2014-01-21 07:10:38 <jcorgan> shouldn't
485 2014-01-21 07:10:44 <Diablo-D3> dude, I know what the fuck you were referring to
486 2014-01-21 07:10:48 <Diablo-D3> everyone does
487 2014-01-21 07:10:52 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: people use it
488 2014-01-21 07:12:06 <SomeoneWeird> youngins? >_>
489 2014-01-21 07:12:38 <jcorgan> lol, sometimes i do feel like the grampa crashing the party
490 2014-01-21 07:12:41 crank has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
491 2014-01-21 07:13:16 <SomeoneWeird> idk, most people are way older than me heh
492 2014-01-21 07:13:26 crank has joined
493 2014-01-21 07:14:24 <jcorgan> i met bluematt and felt positively ancient
494 2014-01-21 07:14:29 <Diablo-D3> jcorgan: Im 30!
495 2014-01-21 07:14:53 <SomeoneWeird> how old are you/bluematt?
496 2014-01-21 07:15:11 <jcorgan> I'm 46
497 2014-01-21 07:15:16 <SomeoneWeird> oh, wow
498 2014-01-21 07:17:49 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
499 2014-01-21 07:21:37 mitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
500 2014-01-21 07:22:29 spirals has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
501 2014-01-21 07:24:12 mitz has joined
502 2014-01-21 07:27:28 ericmuyser has joined
503 2014-01-21 07:28:43 ericmuyser has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
504 2014-01-21 07:28:58 ericmuyser has joined
505 2014-01-21 07:30:10 <abrkn> how does bitpay eliminate currency risk? do they actually cover any change in btc/usd for the 15 min?
506 2014-01-21 07:31:08 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
507 2014-01-21 07:31:16 JZavala has joined
508 2014-01-21 07:31:31 mynameis has joined
509 2014-01-21 07:32:41 debiantoruser has joined
510 2014-01-21 07:33:57 Drenllateno has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
511 2014-01-21 07:39:40 quijibo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
512 2014-01-21 07:39:49 ralphthe1inja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
513 2014-01-21 07:39:52 smash_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
514 2014-01-21 07:40:45 andyo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
515 2014-01-21 07:43:03 MiningBuddy- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
516 2014-01-21 07:43:50 MiningBuddy has joined
517 2014-01-21 07:44:09 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
518 2014-01-21 07:45:02 andyo has joined
519 2014-01-21 07:45:49 smash_ has joined
520 2014-01-21 07:48:13 quijibo has joined
521 2014-01-21 07:49:11 ielo has joined
522 2014-01-21 07:50:04 RBRubicon has joined
523 2014-01-21 07:50:04 MolokoDeck has joined
524 2014-01-21 07:52:26 W0rmDr1nk has joined
525 2014-01-21 07:52:27 kinglet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
526 2014-01-21 07:52:28 Neozonz has joined
527 2014-01-21 07:53:15 masber has joined
528 2014-01-21 07:54:57 kinglet has joined
529 2014-01-21 07:55:03 CryptoBuck_ALT has quit ()
530 2014-01-21 07:55:09 Neozonz has quit (Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
531 2014-01-21 07:55:17 CryptoBuck has joined
532 2014-01-21 07:55:24 happening has joined
533 2014-01-21 07:55:56 happening has quit (Client Quit)
534 2014-01-21 07:56:03 porquilho has quit ()
535 2014-01-21 07:56:52 happening has joined
536 2014-01-21 08:00:35 niston has joined
537 2014-01-21 08:00:57 HaltingState has joined
538 2014-01-21 08:02:13 kinglet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
539 2014-01-21 08:04:48 <happening> Hi I'm trying to implement multisignature transactions, specifically signing and creating the input-script for redemption. For a 2 out of 2 transaction with transaction-input, do I place the redeem-script at the transaction-input-script, serialize transaction, hash, and sign hash with each private key?
540 2014-01-21 08:05:10 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
541 2014-01-21 08:06:01 <gmaxwell> shesek: Evidence that your service is a success: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423843.msg4613678#msg4613678
542 2014-01-21 08:06:33 kinglet has joined
543 2014-01-21 08:08:53 n0n0 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
544 2014-01-21 08:10:50 jeewee has joined
545 2014-01-21 08:13:02 damethos has joined
546 2014-01-21 08:14:21 hmmma has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
547 2014-01-21 08:16:26 [\\\] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
548 2014-01-21 08:16:48 smash_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
549 2014-01-21 08:25:44 VinceSamios has joined
550 2014-01-21 08:26:11 macboz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
551 2014-01-21 08:26:31 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
552 2014-01-21 08:27:43 macboz has joined
553 2014-01-21 08:27:57 [\\\] has joined
554 2014-01-21 08:28:05 cadaver has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
555 2014-01-21 08:28:47 <brisque> gmaxwell: oh that's terrible.
556 2014-01-21 08:29:53 ThomasV has joined
557 2014-01-21 08:32:47 damethos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
558 2014-01-21 08:33:46 <gmaxwell> derp, I see shesek replied there right away.
559 2014-01-21 08:34:22 debiantoruser has joined
560 2014-01-21 08:34:41 <brisque> impressive that somebody came up with that so quickly though.
561 2014-01-21 08:37:49 mynameis has joined
562 2014-01-21 08:40:46 RBRubicon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
563 2014-01-21 08:41:21 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
564 2014-01-21 08:43:41 smash_ has joined
565 2014-01-21 08:46:02 <Krellan> gmaxwell: I tried to donate to you but it was before I disabled the mintxfee/minrelaytxfee settings and my TX got stuck
566 2014-01-21 08:46:40 <Krellan> just saw it when I opened the qt client for the first time in a while, and there it was, sticking to the top of the list
567 2014-01-21 08:51:33 <gmaxwell> Krellan: you could try exporting the raw transaction and handing it directly to eligius: http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php
568 2014-01-21 08:51:51 <warren> wumpus: nice, gitian win64, I'll test it immediately
569 2014-01-21 08:53:16 <warren> wumpus: the gitian .yml files are still named *win32.yml, not a big deal
570 2014-01-21 08:53:18 andyo has quit (Quit: Bye)
571 2014-01-21 08:56:19 <Krellan> gmaxwell: thanks, tried that first
572 2014-01-21 08:57:02 <Krellan> don't get your hopes up, it was only pennies, not sure how that transaction got in there in the first place actually - it was from a few weeks ago
573 2014-01-21 09:00:01 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
574 2014-01-21 09:00:15 n0n0 has joined
575 2014-01-21 09:01:30 debiantoruser has joined
576 2014-01-21 09:02:03 <Krellan> I need to figure out pywallet - having trouble with it on gentoo because it wants bsddb that gentoo no longer has
577 2014-01-21 09:02:49 <brisque> be careful with pywallet.
578 2014-01-21 09:03:06 <brisque> it's not the best for your privacy, shooting off requests to blockchain.info for every address you own
579 2014-01-21 09:03:32 jdnavarro has joined
580 2014-01-21 09:07:11 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
581 2014-01-21 09:07:35 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
582 2014-01-21 09:08:00 debiantoruser has joined
583 2014-01-21 09:08:17 <Krellan> hmm ok thanks for warning
584 2014-01-21 09:08:46 <Krellan> Is there a better way to delete an unwanted TX that was made wrong (insufficient TX fee) and thus stuck at 0/unconfirmed forever?
585 2014-01-21 09:10:02 <Krellan> gmaxwell: I too would love it if bitcoind would have a "minwallettxfee" that I could set higher than "minrelaytxfee" to be sure to generate my own transactions with good fee but still be willing to accept others with less
586 2014-01-21 09:10:17 hmmma has joined
587 2014-01-21 09:10:17 smash_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
588 2014-01-21 09:10:33 <Krellan> otherwise we'll never have any wiggle room with which to lower the TX fee over time, as bitcoin continues to rise in value.
589 2014-01-21 09:11:30 <Krellan> the "mintxfee" is for mining only, right, not wallet? maybe call it "minminingtxfee"
590 2014-01-21 09:11:46 <CodeShark> unfortunately, in bitcoin, the only fees are for miners
591 2014-01-21 09:11:49 t7 has joined
592 2014-01-21 09:11:55 <CodeShark> it's one of the more broken things about bitcoin :p
593 2014-01-21 09:12:11 wallet42 has joined
594 2014-01-21 09:12:35 <CodeShark> in an ideal world, the relay node could collect the fee for verifying and relaying transactions to miners
595 2014-01-21 09:12:51 Anduck has joined
596 2014-01-21 09:12:51 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
597 2014-01-21 09:12:51 Anduck has joined
598 2014-01-21 09:12:55 <Apocalyptic> CodeShark, bad idea
599 2014-01-21 09:13:16 <CodeShark> in an ideal world - much care would have to be taken in an actual implementation
600 2014-01-21 09:13:19 <Apocalyptic> that would add incentive to disrupt some routes between nodes
601 2014-01-21 09:13:35 <CodeShark> yes, the ideal implementation would take all that into account
602 2014-01-21 09:13:42 <CodeShark> the ideal protocol, that is
603 2014-01-21 09:14:33 <CodeShark> the ideal protocol would reward nodes that provide the most direct, most efficient route to getting a transaction included in a block without rewarding nodes for just moving the data around aimlessly or duplicately
604 2014-01-21 09:15:14 <brisque> I doubt that would be possible in the network as we know it though
605 2014-01-21 09:15:26 <brisque> and does it matter? transactions are instant for all intents.
606 2014-01-21 09:15:53 <CodeShark> it does matter - the more direct and efficient the route, the less of a burden it is on the network as a whole
607 2014-01-21 09:16:24 <wumpus> warren: good point, going to rename them to just win
608 2014-01-21 09:16:48 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
609 2014-01-21 09:16:50 <brisque> every node needs to have the transaction data though, there's always going to be an inventory request for every single transaction. the amount of data being transferred would be the same no matter what.
610 2014-01-21 09:17:01 <CodeShark> bitcoin as it exists requires the transaction to be flooded - but that needn't be necessarily the case
611 2014-01-21 09:17:16 <CodeShark> but perhaps this convo belongs in wizards :)
612 2014-01-21 09:17:19 oleganza has joined
613 2014-01-21 09:17:32 <brisque> CodeShark: it does, sorry.
614 2014-01-21 09:17:34 <warren> wumpus: full of win
615 2014-01-21 09:17:34 <Apocalyptic> "but that needn't be necessarily the case" for some decentralized 0-trust shceme afaik it is
616 2014-01-21 09:17:56 <CodeShark> no, the nodes could query for the transaction when the block is published
617 2014-01-21 09:18:16 <CodeShark> and the sender could send the transaction directly to the recipient, the recipient to miners
618 2014-01-21 09:18:31 <theorbtwo> Not just decentralized, semi-anonymous.
619 2014-01-21 09:18:57 <CodeShark> you could hide your IP address if that's your concern
620 2014-01-21 09:19:04 <theorbtwo> CodeShark: How does the sender send directly to the recipient if the sender doesn't necceessarly know where the recipient is?
621 2014-01-21 09:19:19 <oleganza> Hi! Is there a way to combine two ECDSA signatures S1 and S2 so the result is a valid signature with private key = privkey1*privkey2 ?
622 2014-01-21 09:19:31 <brisque> CodeShark: more likely the recipient isn't even online and might not ever be.
623 2014-01-21 09:20:07 <CodeShark> yes, this is all true - I was thinking about an ideal situation where these issues could be solved in some other manner
624 2014-01-21 09:21:27 <CodeShark> anyhow, it is clearly not a trivial problemâ¦and there might not be an ideal solution
625 2014-01-21 09:22:01 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
626 2014-01-21 09:22:17 debiantoruser has joined
627 2014-01-21 09:22:20 <brisque> block storage will become an issue long before links are saturated. bandwidth is cheap.
628 2014-01-21 09:23:05 justanotheruser has joined
629 2014-01-21 09:23:22 cr3pe has joined
630 2014-01-21 09:23:47 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
631 2014-01-21 09:25:24 <CodeShark> the main reason for relayers requiring a fee is to prevent spam - however, since the fee gets paid to miners, relay fee is not really subject to natural market dynamics
632 2014-01-21 09:25:33 hmmma has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
633 2014-01-21 09:26:58 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
634 2014-01-21 09:27:25 Grouver has joined
635 2014-01-21 09:29:25 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
636 2014-01-21 09:30:33 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
637 2014-01-21 09:30:47 <CodeShark> so the issue remains - how to incentivize relay and how to deter spam
638 2014-01-21 09:31:03 Belkaar has joined
639 2014-01-21 09:31:09 <CodeShark> I believe it is as yet an incompletely solved problem at best
640 2014-01-21 09:31:32 <Krellan> Aye
641 2014-01-21 09:31:59 <Krellan> I thought about that myself - no incentive to run a full bitcoin node unless you are mining
642 2014-01-21 09:32:13 debiantoruser has joined
643 2014-01-21 09:32:36 <Krellan> that said, I would love to solve the problem I'm having with "mintxfee" and "minrelaytxfee"
644 2014-01-21 09:33:59 <Krellan> mintxfee has no effect unless I'm lucky enough to solve a block (ha) - minrelaytxfee controls both my TX and peer TX and i'd love to separate these two knobs
645 2014-01-21 09:34:15 <warren> wumpus: sorry to nitpick, but did you use "git mv OLDFILE NEWFILE" for this? it appears not.
646 2014-01-21 09:34:43 <warren> wumpus: it's a bit easier to follow simultaneous rename and changes that way
647 2014-01-21 09:35:10 andyo has joined
648 2014-01-21 09:39:43 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
649 2014-01-21 09:44:33 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
650 2014-01-21 09:44:41 <warren> # http://statmt.org/~s0565741/software/boost_1_52_0/libs/context/doc/html/context/requirements.html
651 2014-01-21 09:44:42 <warren> # Note: Might need these options in the future for 64bit builds.
652 2014-01-21 09:44:48 <warren> wumpus: perhaps that coment isn't needed anymore?
653 2014-01-21 09:45:36 OperatorSyn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
654 2014-01-21 09:45:37 debiantoruser has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
655 2014-01-21 09:45:47 melvster has joined
656 2014-01-21 09:47:28 jtcwang has joined
657 2014-01-21 09:47:50 <wumpus> warren: yes, I used git mv
658 2014-01-21 09:48:07 <wumpus> but git isn't very good at tracking renames when the content of files also changed
659 2014-01-21 09:49:02 <wumpus> note that almost the entire files are rewritten (from git's viewpoint) due to the indentation for the for loop
660 2014-01-21 09:49:12 debiantoruser has joined
661 2014-01-21 09:49:33 wallet42 has joined
662 2014-01-21 09:49:40 wallet42 has quit (Changing host)
663 2014-01-21 09:49:40 wallet42 has joined
664 2014-01-21 09:49:44 <wumpus> you can use a manual diff + ignore spaces to get a sensible output
665 2014-01-21 09:50:07 mattco has joined
666 2014-01-21 09:51:22 <wumpus> removed the boost 64-bit comment, it is taken into account already
667 2014-01-21 09:52:45 mappum has joined
668 2014-01-21 09:56:37 AusBitBank has joined
669 2014-01-21 09:56:47 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
670 2014-01-21 09:57:09 <warren> wumpus: ok, my mistake
671 2014-01-21 09:58:04 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
672 2014-01-21 09:58:12 jtimon has joined
673 2014-01-21 09:58:58 <fanquake> ;;blocks
674 2014-01-21 09:58:58 <gribble> 281653
675 2014-01-21 10:05:52 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
676 2014-01-21 10:08:13 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
677 2014-01-21 10:08:18 CryptDrift has joined
678 2014-01-21 10:08:54 n0n0 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
679 2014-01-21 10:09:28 mynameis has joined
680 2014-01-21 10:11:28 jeewee has joined
681 2014-01-21 10:12:08 grishnakh__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
682 2014-01-21 10:13:51 pizzaman has joined
683 2014-01-21 10:14:12 [Author] has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
684 2014-01-21 10:14:15 pizzaman is now known as Guest17343
685 2014-01-21 10:16:00 crypt_drift has joined
686 2014-01-21 10:16:52 crypt_drift has quit (Client Quit)
687 2014-01-21 10:17:28 MolokoDeck has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
688 2014-01-21 10:18:45 b4epoche has joined
689 2014-01-21 10:18:48 CryptDrift has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
690 2014-01-21 10:18:57 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
691 2014-01-21 10:19:49 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
692 2014-01-21 10:19:57 justusranvier has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
693 2014-01-21 10:21:21 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
694 2014-01-21 10:22:12 b4epoche_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
695 2014-01-21 10:22:50 hnz has joined
696 2014-01-21 10:23:27 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
697 2014-01-21 10:25:57 mattco has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
698 2014-01-21 10:26:13 Insti has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
699 2014-01-21 10:26:41 nessence has quit ()
700 2014-01-21 10:26:57 Insti has joined
701 2014-01-21 10:29:04 eps has left ()
702 2014-01-21 10:30:07 epscy has joined
703 2014-01-21 10:32:34 wei__ has joined
704 2014-01-21 10:33:23 jtcwang has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
705 2014-01-21 10:34:45 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
706 2014-01-21 10:34:45 saivann has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
707 2014-01-21 10:36:53 debiantoruser has joined
708 2014-01-21 10:40:02 wallet42 has joined
709 2014-01-21 10:40:55 zacm has quit ()
710 2014-01-21 10:42:16 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
711 2014-01-21 10:42:49 zacm has joined
712 2014-01-21 10:44:15 wallet42 has joined
713 2014-01-21 10:48:57 happening has quit (Quit: Page closed)
714 2014-01-21 10:53:32 CryptoBuck_ALT has joined
715 2014-01-21 10:57:09 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
716 2014-01-21 10:59:58 FabianB has joined
717 2014-01-21 11:00:02 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
718 2014-01-21 11:02:08 debiantoruser has joined
719 2014-01-21 11:02:21 daktak has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
720 2014-01-21 11:04:41 HaltingState has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
721 2014-01-21 11:04:57 mitz has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2)
722 2014-01-21 11:05:00 ericmuyser has joined
723 2014-01-21 11:05:02 askmike has joined
724 2014-01-21 11:05:40 CryptoBuck_ALT has quit ()
725 2014-01-21 11:05:50 CryptoBuck has joined
726 2014-01-21 11:10:34 nightlingo has joined
727 2014-01-21 11:11:13 <nightlingo> guys... how can you tell when the difficulty level will increase ?
728 2014-01-21 11:11:37 <nightlingo> which are the most significant variables that contribute to this change ?
729 2014-01-21 11:15:36 Guest17343 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
730 2014-01-21 11:16:39 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
731 2014-01-21 11:17:58 debiantoruser has joined
732 2014-01-21 11:18:55 <brisque> nightlingo: there's one variable, the speed of block generation. the difficulty changes every set number of blocks (2016), and the difficulty is adjusted so that the average time per block is back to 10 minutes. it can increase or decrease, it acts like a governor to keep the speed of block generation constant.
733 2014-01-21 11:19:12 execut3 has joined
734 2014-01-21 11:19:48 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
735 2014-01-21 11:19:53 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
736 2014-01-21 11:19:56 daktak has joined
737 2014-01-21 11:20:11 <brisque> nightlingo: the speed of the network is dependant on the hashing power, that is the number of miners and their speeds added together. at the moment it's something like 16 petahash, or a difficulty of 1.7 billion. as we are currently mining too fast (a block every 7 minutes), the difficulty will increase in the next period by something like 25% to compensate.
738 2014-01-21 11:20:22 Eiii has quit ()
739 2014-01-21 11:21:10 <warren> wumpus problem ... qt-win.yml fails due to not enough space in the VM disk, did you use on-defaults when creating it?
740 2014-01-21 11:22:35 <wumpus> warren: I don't know, seems to work fine for me, but it'd be possible to rm the build directories after use
741 2014-01-21 11:25:27 [Author] has joined
742 2014-01-21 11:27:19 TD has joined
743 2014-01-21 11:28:07 Prattler has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
744 2014-01-21 11:28:30 Prattler has joined
745 2014-01-21 11:29:35 one_zero has quit ()
746 2014-01-21 11:30:25 <wumpus> personally I prefer not to, as it can be useful to ssh to the vm and inspect the result in some cases, but what else can we do if it runs out of disk space
747 2014-01-21 11:30:53 <wumpus> it would only clean up on succesful builds, obviously
748 2014-01-21 11:31:02 mattco has joined
749 2014-01-21 11:31:50 <Krellan> Nice, my little patch got accepted into pywallet - that makes 4 for 4 with bitcoin tools I've used :)
750 2014-01-21 11:33:16 fanquake has left ()
751 2014-01-21 11:34:28 <wumpus> warren: can you try adding a rm -rf $BUILDDIR $DEPSDIR before the done?
752 2014-01-21 11:35:02 <wumpus> oh even $INSTALLPREFIX can be in there
753 2014-01-21 11:35:21 <warren> wumpus: will do so if it fails again, trying
754 2014-01-21 11:39:07 hmsimha has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
755 2014-01-21 11:41:00 darsk1ez has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
756 2014-01-21 11:41:48 Subo1977_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
757 2014-01-21 11:42:19 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
758 2014-01-21 11:42:59 <wumpus> qt sure makes a lot of files during build, so it somehow makes sense that it runs out of space
759 2014-01-21 11:43:18 <sipa> Krellan: isn't there a -txfee to set the volynatary fee per kb?
760 2014-01-21 11:44:48 Subo1977 has joined
761 2014-01-21 11:44:49 <nightlingo> brisque: thanks! that was an awesome explanation :)
762 2014-01-21 11:45:23 <Krellan> sipa: I wonder if both of those options (-txfee on command line, mintxfee in bitcoin.conf file) set the same setting?
763 2014-01-21 11:45:25 <sipa> jcorgan: bip32/38/39 don't affect the network protocol, it's just individual clients that choose or choose not to adopt it
764 2014-01-21 11:46:26 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
765 2014-01-21 11:46:31 <sipa> swulf--: the genesis block has height 0
766 2014-01-21 11:46:35 adam3us has joined
767 2014-01-21 11:46:56 <Krellan> Will have to look at it some more. Strange that all the txfee settings wouldn't be in one place.
768 2014-01-21 11:46:58 <adam3us> anyone have a bookmark for that long article someone made on bitcointalk giving a code walk through of bitcoind?
769 2014-01-21 11:47:19 <adam3us> explaining the structure, classes, code organization etc. cant find link now.
770 2014-01-21 11:47:57 Namworld has quit ()
771 2014-01-21 11:48:11 debiantoruser has joined
772 2014-01-21 11:49:26 <sipa> Krellan: one is mining, one is wallet, one is validation
773 2014-01-21 11:49:30 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
774 2014-01-21 11:49:52 <sipa> Krellan: there's even a settxfee rpc iirc
775 2014-01-21 11:49:57 <Krellan> sipa: good, that's the idea
776 2014-01-21 11:50:05 davecol has joined
777 2014-01-21 11:50:14 <Krellan> glad to see that's already there, I missed it entirely
778 2014-01-21 11:50:46 <warren> wumpus: PM
779 2014-01-21 11:50:50 <warren> wumpus: trying your suggestion now
780 2014-01-21 11:51:21 Zarutian has joined
781 2014-01-21 11:51:34 FabianB_ has joined
782 2014-01-21 11:52:06 drayah has joined
783 2014-01-21 11:52:14 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
784 2014-01-21 11:52:22 darsk1ez has joined
785 2014-01-21 11:52:35 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
786 2014-01-21 11:54:29 <adam3us> adam3us: ah never mind, i found it finally https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41718.0
787 2014-01-21 11:56:20 jeewee1 has joined
788 2014-01-21 11:59:06 <sipa> adam3us: not sure how up to date that is
789 2014-01-21 11:59:34 <sipa> adam3us: with headers-first at least the downloading mechanism will change significantly
790 2014-01-21 11:59:37 tmsk has joined
791 2014-01-21 12:02:39 Ursium has joined
792 2014-01-21 12:06:26 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
793 2014-01-21 12:10:48 melvster has joined
794 2014-01-21 12:11:59 sassamo has joined
795 2014-01-21 12:12:31 TD has joined
796 2014-01-21 12:13:33 jdnavarro has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
797 2014-01-21 12:14:19 ericmuyser has joined
798 2014-01-21 12:14:48 aegis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
799 2014-01-21 12:15:03 ericmuyser has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
800 2014-01-21 12:15:29 ericmuyser has joined
801 2014-01-21 12:16:31 sassamo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
802 2014-01-21 12:17:53 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
803 2014-01-21 12:18:21 ircuser-6 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
804 2014-01-21 12:19:45 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
805 2014-01-21 12:26:48 jtimon_ has joined
806 2014-01-21 12:27:39 drayah_ has joined
807 2014-01-21 12:28:53 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
808 2014-01-21 12:29:52 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
809 2014-01-21 12:29:59 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
810 2014-01-21 12:30:24 johnsoft has joined
811 2014-01-21 12:30:48 breesy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
812 2014-01-21 12:31:19 breesy has joined
813 2014-01-21 12:45:37 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
814 2014-01-21 12:45:49 hmsimha has joined
815 2014-01-21 12:48:56 melvster has joined
816 2014-01-21 12:50:25 EngierkO has joined
817 2014-01-21 12:51:03 EngierkO has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
818 2014-01-21 12:51:39 EngierkO has joined
819 2014-01-21 12:54:32 Emcy has joined
820 2014-01-21 12:54:40 Emcy has quit (Changing host)
821 2014-01-21 12:54:40 Emcy has joined
822 2014-01-21 12:58:39 Pullphinger has joined
823 2014-01-21 13:02:06 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
824 2014-01-21 13:03:48 ircuser-6 has joined
825 2014-01-21 13:07:39 askmike has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
826 2014-01-21 13:07:41 Zarutian has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
827 2014-01-21 13:09:41 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
828 2014-01-21 13:10:14 justanotheruser has joined
829 2014-01-21 13:10:45 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
830 2014-01-21 13:12:20 <warren> wumpus: Running the win64 bitcoin-qt.exe it thinks my existing block database is corrupted.
831 2014-01-21 13:12:35 <warren> wumpus: on this computer I didn't use bitcoin since February 2013 apparently
832 2014-01-21 13:12:46 <warren> it's leveldb
833 2014-01-21 13:13:00 adam3us has left ()
834 2014-01-21 13:13:20 <warren> I'm aborting rebuild of block database and making a copy
835 2014-01-21 13:13:29 wallet421 has joined
836 2014-01-21 13:13:29 wallet42 has quit (Killed (kornbluth.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
837 2014-01-21 13:13:29 wallet421 is now known as wallet42
838 2014-01-21 13:13:41 <wumpus> strange, wouldn't know what to think about it, worked fine for me (even though I've run the 32-bit exe before)
839 2014-01-21 13:14:36 <wumpus> it just picked up from where it was
840 2014-01-21 13:14:37 <warren> wumpus: it also installed the 64bit binary in C:\Program Files (x86)\Bitcoin\ which is wrong
841 2014-01-21 13:14:47 <wumpus> warren: see the post in the github issue
842 2014-01-21 13:14:51 <warren> ah
843 2014-01-21 13:14:53 <wumpus> that's already known...
844 2014-01-21 13:15:18 TD has joined
845 2014-01-21 13:15:47 <warren> it would save a LOT of time if there were gitian nightly builds available for download ...
846 2014-01-21 13:15:54 Nothing4You has quit (Quit: Gone...)
847 2014-01-21 13:16:13 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
848 2014-01-21 13:16:19 <wumpus> yes it would be useful
849 2014-01-21 13:16:32 <wumpus> feel free to set up something like that
850 2014-01-21 13:16:45 <warren> I travel soon, thinking about doing it.
851 2014-01-21 13:16:50 debiantoruser has joined
852 2014-01-21 13:17:46 <wumpus> I think the biggest issue is hosting
853 2014-01-21 13:17:57 <warren> download hosting or the build box?
854 2014-01-21 13:18:02 <warren> download hosting isn't a big problem
855 2014-01-21 13:18:11 <wumpus> the building could be done on the same box that does pulltester, I think
856 2014-01-21 13:18:45 <wumpus> I think download hosting (bandwidth) is a larger issue
857 2014-01-21 13:19:08 <warren> I have some capacity for that
858 2014-01-21 13:19:14 <warren> but it comes out of my pocket
859 2014-01-21 13:19:23 <wumpus> not sure though, I've never tried something like that
860 2014-01-21 13:20:03 <warren> I'm back home in 2 weeks, I'll see about implementing auto-builds
861 2014-01-21 13:20:36 <wumpus> if you can provide the scripting and post on the ML someone else may be able to provide hosting
862 2014-01-21 13:21:00 <warren> hmm... win32 build also thinks my block database is corrupted
863 2014-01-21 13:21:16 justanotheruser has quit (Changing host)
864 2014-01-21 13:21:16 justanotheruser has joined
865 2014-01-21 13:21:18 <wumpus> as I'm sure you're not the only person who thinks this would be useful
866 2014-01-21 13:21:21 <warren> wumpus: and that cmd.exe console window still opens
867 2014-01-21 13:21:25 <wumpus> oh, phew, no 64-bit issue
868 2014-01-21 13:21:41 <warren> well
869 2014-01-21 13:21:50 * warren tests 0.8.6
870 2014-01-21 13:21:57 <wumpus> warren: yes, no one fixed that yet
871 2014-01-21 13:21:59 masber has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
872 2014-01-21 13:22:39 <warren> wumpus: for the windows installer could we put the source into a .zip file that is installed alongside instead of an exploded source tree that 0.01% of the end users will actually care about?
873 2014-01-21 13:22:41 <wumpus> neither is issue #3499 closed
874 2014-01-21 13:22:57 <wumpus> warren: dunno, open an issue for that
875 2014-01-21 13:23:12 <wumpus> I think it's brought up before and it was decided to keep it like this
876 2014-01-21 13:23:14 <warren> I'd suggest the same thing for the linux tar
877 2014-01-21 13:23:24 <wumpus> a long time ago though...
878 2014-01-21 13:23:30 <warren> well, it slows down install, and due to filesystem slack it wastes more disk space, and almost nobody wants it
879 2014-01-21 13:24:06 <wumpus> well on the other hand if you install bitcoin-qt in the first place you should have plenty of disk space, that text for the source code is nothing compared to the block chain :p
880 2014-01-21 13:24:25 <warren> wumpus: bad ... 0.8.6 doesn't think the block database is corrupted
881 2014-01-21 13:24:36 <wumpus> penny wise pound foolish
882 2014-01-21 13:25:23 <wumpus> anything in debug.log as to *why* it thinks it is corrupted?
883 2014-01-21 13:25:37 <warren> no
884 2014-01-21 13:25:38 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
885 2014-01-21 13:25:51 <warren> it's past 3am here, I'll look later
886 2014-01-21 13:26:25 K1773R has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
887 2014-01-21 13:27:41 debiantoruser has joined
888 2014-01-21 13:28:26 <warren> wumpus: crap. after running 0.8.6, the new master build no longer thinks its corrupt ...
889 2014-01-21 13:30:47 VinceSamios has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
890 2014-01-21 13:30:53 Raziel has joined
891 2014-01-21 13:31:36 ThomasV has joined
892 2014-01-21 13:31:47 <warren> wumpus: hm, the rotating icons in the bottom right are missing
893 2014-01-21 13:31:54 <warren> wumpus: it's just blank there
894 2014-01-21 13:31:55 K1773R has joined
895 2014-01-21 13:32:06 <wumpus> lol !define: "MUI_UNWELCOMEFINISHPAGE_BITMAP"="/home/ubuntu/build64/distsrc/share/pixmaps/nsis-wizard.bmp" ... so there's an UNWELCOME page too? :p
896 2014-01-21 13:32:22 <wumpus> warren: didn't have that issue
897 2014-01-21 13:32:46 <warren> wumpus: I see nothing there in windows 7 64bit
898 2014-01-21 13:32:55 <wumpus> while syncing?
899 2014-01-21 13:32:59 <warren> wumpus: yes
900 2014-01-21 13:33:47 <wumpus> ok, no idea...
901 2014-01-21 13:34:16 <wumpus> that's a small detail I suppose, I wonder if the overal program is stable and working
902 2014-01-21 13:34:29 <wumpus> if not we can still cancel this 64 bit idea
903 2014-01-21 13:35:01 <warren> hmm, whatever master is doing with upnp works with Apple Time Capsule's NAT. 0.8.6's upnp didn't.
904 2014-01-21 13:35:06 <warren> perhaps that's from the dep upgrade?
905 2014-01-21 13:35:24 <warren> this might get us more listening nodes
906 2014-01-21 13:35:29 <wumpus> yes I think so, UPNP is also working for me now
907 2014-01-21 13:35:52 zeddan81_ has joined
908 2014-01-21 13:35:57 BNCatDIGISHELL has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
909 2014-01-21 13:36:28 <warren> wumpus: *strange*, actual block sync didn't begin until I opened the Debug window, prior to that I had 13 peers connected ...
910 2014-01-21 13:36:31 BNCatDIGISHELL has joined
911 2014-01-21 13:36:46 <wumpus> that's pretty normal, don't panic too soon
912 2014-01-21 13:37:03 <warren> network traffic graph is nice
913 2014-01-21 13:37:11 loltu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
914 2014-01-21 13:37:16 <warren> I'm leaving the office now, will leave this running
915 2014-01-21 13:37:20 <warren> flying in two days
916 2014-01-21 13:37:23 <warren> bbl
917 2014-01-21 13:37:24 <wumpus> thanks for testing
918 2014-01-21 13:37:27 <wumpus> later!
919 2014-01-21 13:37:30 <warren> ttyl
920 2014-01-21 13:38:31 askmike has joined
921 2014-01-21 13:38:35 zeddan81 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
922 2014-01-21 13:40:01 cypherdial has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
923 2014-01-21 13:40:03 loltu has joined
924 2014-01-21 13:40:23 CryptDrift has joined
925 2014-01-21 13:40:23 CryptDrift has quit (Changing host)
926 2014-01-21 13:40:23 CryptDrift has joined
927 2014-01-21 13:40:54 Cory has quit ()
928 2014-01-21 13:42:31 Zarutian has joined
929 2014-01-21 13:42:51 cypherdial has joined
930 2014-01-21 13:49:17 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
931 2014-01-21 13:50:00 askmike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
932 2014-01-21 13:50:32 askmike has joined
933 2014-01-21 13:51:22 SwampTony has joined
934 2014-01-21 13:53:54 macboz has joined
935 2014-01-21 13:57:08 askmike has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
936 2014-01-21 14:03:22 sacrelege has joined
937 2014-01-21 14:05:24 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
938 2014-01-21 14:06:03 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
939 2014-01-21 14:06:05 debiantoruser has joined
940 2014-01-21 14:06:34 Subo1977 has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
941 2014-01-21 14:06:35 Subo1977_ has joined
942 2014-01-21 14:07:38 owowo has joined
943 2014-01-21 14:07:48 copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
944 2014-01-21 14:08:08 Ursium has quit (Quit: Ursium)
945 2014-01-21 14:10:01 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
946 2014-01-21 14:11:44 Guyver2 has joined
947 2014-01-21 14:13:05 TD has joined
948 2014-01-21 14:13:19 Vinnie_win has joined
949 2014-01-21 14:14:16 drayah_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
950 2014-01-21 14:16:20 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
951 2014-01-21 14:16:42 rdymac has joined
952 2014-01-21 14:17:18 askmike has joined
953 2014-01-21 14:17:28 drayah_ has joined
954 2014-01-21 14:18:01 Ursium has joined
955 2014-01-21 14:18:16 melvster has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
956 2014-01-21 14:19:28 agricocb has joined
957 2014-01-21 14:20:46 breesy has quit (Quit: Leaving)
958 2014-01-21 14:22:05 drayah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
959 2014-01-21 14:26:17 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
960 2014-01-21 14:27:56 execut3 has left ()
961 2014-01-21 14:28:03 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
962 2014-01-21 14:28:05 shesek has joined
963 2014-01-21 14:28:07 debiantoruser has joined
964 2014-01-21 14:28:27 dmanderson is now known as dmanderson_afk
965 2014-01-21 14:29:20 b4epoche_ has joined
966 2014-01-21 14:32:27 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
967 2014-01-21 14:34:18 CryptDrift has quit (Quit: Leaving)
968 2014-01-21 14:34:20 <berndj> i want to relax the requirement for the first cert in a payment request's pki_data to be the request's signing cert. path of lest resistance is to just cycle through all the certs until i find one that works; would it be better to add a field to say the first N of pki_data's certs are the ones to look at?
969 2014-01-21 14:34:43 <berndj> also, i'm not sure how openssl feels about the ordering of certs
970 2014-01-21 14:34:56 VinceSamios has joined
971 2014-01-21 14:39:36 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
972 2014-01-21 14:40:06 <TD> berndj: openssl requires certs to be ordered
973 2014-01-21 14:40:21 <berndj> drat
974 2014-01-21 14:40:22 <TD> berndj: why do you think it's easier to brute force it rather than just rely on the order in the pki_Data?
975 2014-01-21 14:40:53 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
976 2014-01-21 14:41:19 <berndj> TD, http://lair.fifthhorseman.net/~dkg/tls-centralization/ (search for "encourage concentration") - that's what i want to address
977 2014-01-21 14:41:24 MoALTz has joined
978 2014-01-21 14:41:51 drayah has joined
979 2014-01-21 14:42:11 debiantoruser has joined
980 2014-01-21 14:42:15 <berndj> does it require a linear ordering or merely a topological order?
981 2014-01-21 14:43:01 <TD> you can already cross-sign certificates. X.509v3 allows complex topologies
982 2014-01-21 14:43:11 <TD> in practice nobody uses this because being signed by two CA's is a waste of time
983 2014-01-21 14:43:33 <TD> besides, i question the rationale on that page. there is quite a lot of competition in the CA market
984 2014-01-21 14:44:39 <TD> the stated modification wouldn't help competition. people would still say, "i want 100% acceptance of my SSL, even on old/crappy embedded devices that never receive any kind of update. therefore i will need to buy a cert that has a high degree of acceptance. now i don't need a second cert, so why bother?"
985 2014-01-21 14:44:55 <TD> the right way to make it easier to create new CA's is to do what Microsoft already did in Vista, and make root certs downloaded just in time
986 2014-01-21 14:45:12 <TD> (or ensure that software updates work reliably and people apply them)
987 2014-01-21 14:45:56 <TD> there is a debate on this running in the bitcointalk forum at the moment, if you want to read that
988 2014-01-21 14:46:27 <berndj> TD, you're presenting the incentive in choosing a CA as binary
989 2014-01-21 14:46:36 <TD> it is binary
990 2014-01-21 14:46:45 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
991 2014-01-21 14:47:04 <TD> either you get the effect in the UI you want, or you don't. for browsers that means, the user sees the padlock or they don't
992 2014-01-21 14:47:04 <berndj> yes, i'll buy a cert from $biggest_ca, but i can *also* buy one from $tinfoil_hat_ca
993 2014-01-21 14:47:21 <TD> you can do it with SSL today and nobody ever does. because it's a waste of time. why would you buy a second cert from tinfoil hat ca?
994 2014-01-21 14:47:36 <TD> all you care about is whether the user sees the padlock. do they see it? yes? job done
995 2014-01-21 14:47:45 <TD> there is zero benefit to having a second CA check the same thing
996 2014-01-21 14:47:53 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
997 2014-01-21 14:48:03 Matt_von_Mises has joined
998 2014-01-21 14:48:12 debiantoruser has joined
999 2014-01-21 14:48:37 <berndj> ok, so you're saying that if someone *did* get their paymentrequest signing cert signed by two CA's, bitcoin-qt would show the coveted green request regardless of which (single) CA cert it trusts?
1000 2014-01-21 14:48:49 <TD> of course. how else should it work? you want to see a screen that's twice as green?
1001 2014-01-21 14:48:52 <berndj> as in right now, not with some patch applied
1002 2014-01-21 14:49:20 <berndj> lol, i want #01FE00!
1003 2014-01-21 14:49:32 <TD> no, i mean, the code would probably reject if you tried to present two separate cert chains
1004 2014-01-21 14:49:51 <berndj> seriously, i just thought that it would show red in one of the cases
1005 2014-01-21 14:49:57 <TD> i've never tried it. you can certainly get a cert that's cross-signed by two CAs, but it requires the CA's to co-operate I believe today and (because this is pointless) none of them have any UI set up for that
1006 2014-01-21 14:50:24 <Matt_von_Mises> What is the justification for having so much code randomly within the header files of the Satoshi client? It makes code hard to find and every time I change a bit of code in the header file it forces recompilation of everything that includes it, which is annoying as the Satoshi client takes ages to build.
1007 2014-01-21 14:50:29 <TD> but there's no point in trying to "fix" this because any UI that tries to be more than a binary green/grey system will confuse people
1008 2014-01-21 14:50:38 <berndj> ok that seems like a red flag to me. it shouldn't depend on CAs cooperating
1009 2014-01-21 14:50:43 <TD> Matt_von_Mises: it's just the way Satoshi wrote it and it's being slowly changed over time
1010 2014-01-21 14:51:16 <Matt_von_Mises> TD: I hope so! It's still quite a mess.
1011 2014-01-21 14:51:37 <TD> berndj: again, I never tried it. it might work. depends on the toolchains they use, i think. generally CA's are conservative about what they sign, for obvious reasons ...... it's generally a bad idea, security wise, to sign random crap you don't understand
1012 2014-01-21 14:51:39 <berndj> TD, i'm not trying to make green greener. i just want red to become green if there is a valid humanly-verifiable chain of trust back to something the client does trust
1013 2014-01-21 14:51:45 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
1014 2014-01-21 14:51:56 <TD> hmmm, about to run out of battery. just a sec ... gonna have to find a power plug
1015 2014-01-21 14:51:58 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1016 2014-01-21 14:52:43 <jgarzik> Matt_von_Mises, TD, RE "just the way Satoshi wrote it" -- Satoshi was following common C++ coding style at the time, which often puts lots of code in header files
1017 2014-01-21 14:52:50 <jgarzik> It is a not-uncommon C++ style
1018 2014-01-21 14:53:19 <jgarzik> In general, Satoshi lumped code together in an annoying fashion
1019 2014-01-21 14:53:38 TD has joined
1020 2014-01-21 14:53:45 <TD> darn. can't find a socket :(
1021 2014-01-21 14:53:50 <TD> ok well will try and come back later
1022 2014-01-21 14:54:24 <TD> anyway, think through what you're proposing in more detail - there are NO situations in which i will want to sign with a CA that some clients don't trust, if there's a set that all of them do trust. the only way to solve that is to get acceptance of new CA's to 100% as fast/easily as possible
1023 2014-01-21 14:54:32 <TD> (given that a cert is a commodity)
1024 2014-01-21 14:54:51 TD has quit (Client Quit)
1025 2014-01-21 14:55:35 aegis has joined
1026 2014-01-21 14:57:48 twizt has joined
1027 2014-01-21 14:59:29 zebraa has joined
1028 2014-01-21 14:59:59 zebraa has left ()
1029 2014-01-21 15:04:17 [\\\] has joined
1030 2014-01-21 15:05:55 dmanderson_afk is now known as dmanderson
1031 2014-01-21 15:06:49 Plinker_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1032 2014-01-21 15:08:53 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1033 2014-01-21 15:11:08 <berndj> dunno, i'm not convinced. everything i read about x509 says there's only one issuer
1034 2014-01-21 15:11:11 datagutt has joined
1035 2014-01-21 15:12:16 damethos has joined
1036 2014-01-21 15:13:55 SwampTony has quit ()
1037 2014-01-21 15:15:03 spirals has joined
1038 2014-01-21 15:15:30 CheckDavid has joined
1039 2014-01-21 15:16:37 lifeofcray has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1040 2014-01-21 15:16:56 lifeofcray has joined
1041 2014-01-21 15:18:04 sassamo has joined
1042 2014-01-21 15:20:56 skydome has joined
1043 2014-01-21 15:23:18 waxwing has joined
1044 2014-01-21 15:23:41 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1045 2014-01-21 15:33:19 Alina-malina has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1046 2014-01-21 15:33:56 Alina-malina has joined
1047 2014-01-21 15:34:27 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1048 2014-01-21 15:35:36 debiantoruser has joined
1049 2014-01-21 15:36:19 TD has joined
1050 2014-01-21 15:36:25 <TD> back
1051 2014-01-21 15:36:45 <TD> seems like starbucks has some weird filtering policies in place. SSL stripping on google.com and interference with IRC connections :(
1052 2014-01-21 15:37:51 Eiii has joined
1053 2014-01-21 15:38:40 cypherdial has quit ()
1054 2014-01-21 15:38:49 <TD> berndj: sorry for the interruption
1055 2014-01-21 15:40:29 <berndj> no worries
1056 2014-01-21 15:40:29 <berndj> TD, from what i can find there's room for only one issuer in a certificate, and this "cross-signing" you're presenting as the extant solution is a separate mechanism, have i got that right so far?
1057 2014-01-21 15:40:55 <berndj> (i really don't know much other than some very short TL;DR version of x509)
1058 2014-01-21 15:42:06 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1059 2014-01-21 15:42:20 agricocb has joined
1060 2014-01-21 15:42:29 <berndj> my position is: it may be that "nobody's interested in having multiple issuers", but i don't like the idea of codifying that into the payment protocol
1061 2014-01-21 15:43:47 Anduck has joined
1062 2014-01-21 15:47:18 smash_ has joined
1063 2014-01-21 15:47:39 <TD> berndj: it's a part of x.509 v3 but that's fairly deep voodoo
1064 2014-01-21 15:47:45 <TD> berndj: i dunno how good implementation support is
1065 2014-01-21 15:48:01 <TD> berndj: well every time you increase the complexity of the payment protocol, you add work for volunteers to do
1066 2014-01-21 15:48:06 <TD> so it's not like it's free to just throw stuff in there
1067 2014-01-21 15:48:12 <TD> each feature has to be justified by its cost
1068 2014-01-21 15:48:16 Coincourse has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1069 2014-01-21 15:48:37 <TD> the only case in which multiple chains would help is if wallets ended up with a disjoint set of root CAs, which would be a disaster and is very unlikely to happen
1070 2014-01-21 15:48:54 <TD> what was the problem you were trying to solve, again? competition in the CA market?
1071 2014-01-21 15:48:59 <berndj> i don't find it that unlikely
1072 2014-01-21 15:50:09 <TD> you have little faith in us :)
1073 2014-01-21 15:50:21 <berndj> if i were a bitcillionaire i wouldn't like having to just accept that all zillion of the OS-loaded root CAs are benevolent - i'd want to be able to choose some tinfoil hat root CA and also be able to *not* trust the standard ones
1074 2014-01-21 15:50:33 <TD> ok. so don't trust the standard ones.
1075 2014-01-21 15:50:47 <TD> go delete the rest
1076 2014-01-21 15:51:06 <berndj> but that leaves be with yellow (not red - i misspoke earlier) bars instead of the coveted green!
1077 2014-01-21 15:51:59 smash_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1078 2014-01-21 15:52:38 smash_ has joined
1079 2014-01-21 15:52:53 sacrelege has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1080 2014-01-21 15:53:20 <TD> that sounds like a bug. it should be grey, same as any other unsigned payment request
1081 2014-01-21 15:53:43 <TD> sigcheck failure should be treated as equivalent to unsigned. tsk.
1082 2014-01-21 15:53:46 <TD> well, we can fix that
1083 2014-01-21 15:54:07 <TD> anyway yes - tinfoil-hat land is a lonely place. the seller trusts entity A and you don't. what to do ?
1084 2014-01-21 15:54:33 profreid has joined
1085 2014-01-21 15:55:41 <berndj> what i want is for the seller to be able to have their certificate signed by *both* $common_CA *and* $tinfoil_hat_CA
1086 2014-01-21 15:55:55 <TD> why would they care to do that? you're the one wearing the tinfoil hat, not them
1087 2014-01-21 15:55:59 <TD> they trust A, remember
1088 2014-01-21 15:56:12 cdecker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1089 2014-01-21 15:56:27 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
1090 2014-01-21 15:56:27 <berndj> how do they trust A? A trusts them, so isn't it the other way round?
1091 2014-01-21 15:56:30 cdecker has joined
1092 2014-01-21 15:56:57 <TD> they went to A and asked for ID verification. obviously they trust A to do a good job of that, otherwise they would not have handed over money for the service. they could have gone to tinfoil hat CA instead, right?
1093 2014-01-21 15:57:14 <berndj> well if they know that their market contains many tinfoilhatters, they'd want to accommodate the tinfoilhatters' CA choices, no?
1094 2014-01-21 15:57:14 <TD> A does *not* trust them!
1095 2014-01-21 15:57:30 <TD> A explicitly doesn't trust them. That's why A does various checks to ensure A is who they say they are, and gets audited to ensure they're doing those checks
1096 2014-01-21 15:57:46 <TD> berndj: so then why not just switch to tinfoil hat CA for everyone?
1097 2014-01-21 15:57:53 <berndj> ok, we're using different versions of "trust"
1098 2014-01-21 15:58:20 <berndj> why does the seller care how good a job the CA does? it's the *buyers* who care
1099 2014-01-21 15:59:37 geneous has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1100 2014-01-21 15:59:46 <TD> indeed. the seller cares that they are verified to the level that ensures the buyers wallet will trust that verification
1101 2014-01-21 16:00:07 <TD> so the seller cares that the CA does a good enough job to satisfy the wallet developers, essentially (for the majority case where users delegate CA trust)
1102 2014-01-21 16:00:30 <TD> if lots of users are editing their root key stores (this will never happen), then we change it to say the seller cares that the CA does a good enough job to satisfy the buyer
1103 2014-01-21 16:00:48 DougieBot5000 has joined
1104 2014-01-21 16:01:57 <berndj> the seller cares, but what they care about is whether the CA's certificate is in the buyers' wallet software, not directly whether the CA does a good job
1105 2014-01-21 16:02:15 <TD> if the CA doesn't do a good enough job to satisfy the wallet developers, it's supposed to get removed, so they care transitively
1106 2014-01-21 16:02:26 <TD> establishing trust is hard work so that's why it gets delegated
1107 2014-01-21 16:02:42 <berndj> heh, not sure i like the law of transitivity of caring
1108 2014-01-21 16:03:01 <TD> it's human. why do we have brands?
1109 2014-01-21 16:03:10 <TD> why am i in a starbucks right now and not a mom'n'pop cafe?
1110 2014-01-21 16:03:37 <TD> well, because i was wandering around london and saw a starbucks. and i know they'll have free wifi and i trust in what experience i'm going to get, because their brand is very consistently enforced.
1111 2014-01-21 16:03:41 <BlueMatt> SomeoneWeird: 20 :)
1112 2014-01-21 16:03:45 <lifeofcray> well bitcoin devs
1113 2014-01-21 16:03:48 <TD> hey BlueMatt
1114 2014-01-21 16:03:52 <BlueMatt> hi TD
1115 2014-01-21 16:03:57 <lifeofcray> anyone got some nice small scripts to sell?
1116 2014-01-21 16:04:05 <helo> lifeofcray: #bitcoin-otc
1117 2014-01-21 16:04:09 <lifeofcray> maybe a lil' gamling script or something
1118 2014-01-21 16:04:21 <TD> although that said, it turns out that recently starbucks started SSL stripping and screwing with IRC, so now my trust in them is damaged a little. next time i'll try a bit harder to find a costa :)
1119 2014-01-21 16:04:23 <lifeofcray> otc is mainly for trading the coin
1120 2014-01-21 16:04:28 <lifeofcray> not all that many coders
1121 2014-01-21 16:04:47 nightlingo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1122 2014-01-21 16:05:37 <berndj> anyway i'm not going to convince you that what i want to do is worthwhile, and i don't think you'll convince me that it isn't; interesting chat though
1123 2014-01-21 16:06:05 smash_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1124 2014-01-21 16:06:26 <TD> i understand the desire, i just disagree that what you think will work, would actually work
1125 2014-01-21 16:06:49 <berndj> so far i don't think anyone but the monkeysphere people see it as something worthwhile; i guess that's your cue to say something like "well maybe it isn't worth doing then" :)
1126 2014-01-21 16:07:01 <TD> you could have your tinfoil hat CA compile lists of pubkeys/cert hashes that it says are "trusted", though i don't think it's meaningful to mark an identity as verified if that entity isn't co-operating with you
1127 2014-01-21 16:07:27 <TD> if you can find a way to verify an identity *without* them co-operating, you could come up with an out of band method for this. for the specific case of domain names only, Convergence is an example of this
1128 2014-01-21 16:07:40 <TD> it doesn't generalise to other kinds of ID though
1129 2014-01-21 16:08:47 datagutt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1130 2014-01-21 16:09:13 <berndj> well what i wanted to do is perhaps such an out-of-band method? i wanted to just relax the requirement for pki_data[0] = seller's cert, but if openssl is really fascist about certificate order, it'll be a lot more work than just adding a for loop
1131 2014-01-21 16:09:50 t7 has quit (Quit: home)
1132 2014-01-21 16:10:22 <TD> to add out of band verification you don't need to use openssl at all
1133 2014-01-21 16:10:32 <TD> you just pick the first cert and go ask your third party tinfoilhat service "do you trust this cert?"
1134 2014-01-21 16:10:58 <TD> or to be more accurate, "this cert claims to be issued for john@smith.com - was it?"
1135 2014-01-21 16:11:51 melvster has joined
1136 2014-01-21 16:12:03 p8m has joined
1137 2014-01-21 16:12:03 <berndj> that introduces an asymmetry i don't like
1138 2014-01-21 16:12:23 <berndj> asymmetry = concentrating force
1139 2014-01-21 16:12:40 <TD> how so
1140 2014-01-21 16:12:47 drayah_ has joined
1141 2014-01-21 16:13:38 <berndj> by treating one certificate chain as the default, with all the convenience that entails, but requiring special action for another, that's a tax on the second
1142 2014-01-21 16:14:08 p8m has quit (Client Quit)
1143 2014-01-21 16:14:16 p8m has joined
1144 2014-01-21 16:14:37 <berndj> and here the tinfoil hat CA becomes a counterproductive example, because if you're wearing one of those hats, you possibly *do* want the inconvenience of non-default action
1145 2014-01-21 16:14:45 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1146 2014-01-21 16:15:51 <TD> well, right. now i'm confused. you want to do something that is, by definition, out of the ordinary, because you don't trust entities that are trusted by default.
1147 2014-01-21 16:15:51 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1148 2014-01-21 16:15:54 <berndj> just imagine it's 1995 and i'm in south africa (i am actually) and thawte rules the world here, its cert is loaded everywhere and verisign's isn't. you have the opposite scenario. but we both buy an ad-free subscription to dejanews
1149 2014-01-21 16:15:57 <TD> so how else do you solve that except by going out of band
1150 2014-01-21 16:16:41 <TD> yeah, well that's the disaster scenario i mentioned. the solution in this case wasn't to make everyone pointlessly buy two certs but rather for browser makers to come up with standards for what it takes to be accepted as a root CA, and then they all came into agreement and trusted both
1151 2014-01-21 16:17:28 nightlingo has joined
1152 2014-01-21 16:17:30 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1153 2014-01-21 16:17:33 debiantoruser has joined
1154 2014-01-21 16:17:36 <berndj> ok, fair enough. i think that's where you an i disagree. i think you're saying, "problem solved right there", and i'm saying, "let's not repeat the mistake that led to that disaster"
1155 2014-01-21 16:18:11 sdamashek has quit (Changing host)
1156 2014-01-21 16:18:11 sdamashek has joined
1157 2014-01-21 16:18:50 <TD> yeah, well that's why i'm planning to make bitcoinj have a standard set of root certs ship with it. so for all bitcoinj based wallets at least you can always be sure that your payment request will be accepted as signed. perhaps in future we'll give it a JIT downloader just like Vista+
1158 2014-01-21 16:19:11 <TD> so once a CA becomes trusted, it gets trusted by everyone simultaneously. Trezor might be an issue ...
1159 2014-01-21 16:19:26 davecol has quit ()
1160 2014-01-21 16:19:43 <TD> i think there we probably want to externalise the root CA store and have the wallet app provide a merkle branch to a root that's signed by the Trezor team
1161 2014-01-21 16:20:33 <TD> the interesting work, from my perspective, is can we define some kind of standard for how to be a low-quality/adhoc CA
1162 2014-01-21 16:20:45 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
1163 2014-01-21 16:21:09 <TD> one reason it's hard to compete with the current CA's, even if everyone used Microsoft's design, is that the quality standards are very high
1164 2014-01-21 16:21:09 <TD> so it's expensive to set one up
1165 2014-01-21 16:21:23 <TD> smaller CA's that aren't as critical, just for the bitcoin community, would be useful, if we could agree what it means to be "not as critical" and what that means
1166 2014-01-21 16:22:13 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1167 2014-01-21 16:22:25 daybyter has joined
1168 2014-01-21 16:22:25 drayah has joined
1169 2014-01-21 16:22:48 <kinlo> TD: in how far can you sign the CA's with another parent CA? I always wondered why browsers wouldn't just create 1 master CA and use the sign/revoke system whenever they want.
1170 2014-01-21 16:23:06 debiantoruser has joined
1171 2014-01-21 16:23:16 <kinlo> it will require some adjustments to the protocol, as a CA is usually self-signed, and you'll have to provide a detached signature to build the chain
1172 2014-01-21 16:23:27 <kinlo> but in the end it does make sense
1173 2014-01-21 16:23:44 ralphtheninja has quit (Quit: leaving)
1174 2014-01-21 16:24:06 drayah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1175 2014-01-21 16:24:44 niston has quit ()
1176 2014-01-21 16:25:38 Guest62671 has joined
1177 2014-01-21 16:25:48 <TD> kinlo: CA's effectively have multiple parent "authorities" (each operating system or app that uses the system). you don't really want every CA to have to get signed by every OS, as each signing changes the cert. detaching the signatures would solve that, but at this point it stops being simpler imo ....
1178 2014-01-21 16:26:10 <epscy> kinlo: i think that would lead to creating and distributing fake versions of browsers with bad CA's in them
1179 2014-01-21 16:26:10 <TD> kinlo: how far - depends on the path length constraints in the parent certs. in theory you can go up quite far (i guess openssl supports hundreds but nobody ever does that)
1180 2014-01-21 16:27:00 <kinlo> epscy: the entire CA idea is broken by design, so I'm not worried about that... They can distribute fake browsers right now already
1181 2014-01-21 16:27:23 <TD> hah
1182 2014-01-21 16:27:54 zacm has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1183 2014-01-21 16:28:00 zacm has joined
1184 2014-01-21 16:28:11 <kinlo> TD: well, the detached signatures would make it more complex, but it would allow re-use of the ocsp and crl system to revoke certificates, and to add new certificates without requiring to "patch" the code
1185 2014-01-21 16:28:45 <TD> you don't have to patch code now. root certs are stored in a kind of lightweight database on most platforms. like i said, on windows certs are downloaded on the fly if they're missing
1186 2014-01-21 16:28:58 <kinlo> are they?
1187 2014-01-21 16:29:09 <TD> sure, since vista. other platforms could do the same
1188 2014-01-21 16:29:12 <TD> i don't think they do though
1189 2014-01-21 16:29:17 <kinlo> intermediates are offered by the servers, but root certificates?
1190 2014-01-21 16:29:36 <TD> root certs are not a part of the offered chain
1191 2014-01-21 16:29:40 <kinlo> how can they be downloaded on the fly? How are they verified?
1192 2014-01-21 16:30:04 <TD> the windows API code is given a cert chain to verify. if it chains to an unknown root, it goes and makes a request to microsoft servers saying "do you know about this root?"
1193 2014-01-21 16:30:16 <TD> and microsoft sends back a (presumably signed) response saying "yes, here you go". then it's stored/cached
1194 2014-01-21 16:30:49 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1195 2014-01-21 16:30:52 <kinlo> well, "presumably signed" is quite important here :)
1196 2014-01-21 16:30:58 <TD> i assume microsoft didn't screw it up
1197 2014-01-21 16:31:02 <TD> i never looked into the details
1198 2014-01-21 16:31:07 Guest62671 has left ()
1199 2014-01-21 16:31:23 <kinlo> if they aren't signed, you basically can just hijack any computer on your network with ease
1200 2014-01-21 16:31:25 MolokoDeck has joined
1201 2014-01-21 16:32:05 <kinlo> anyway, so microsoft basically does what I'm proposing in other words - use detached signatures (well, hopefully) to identify root's
1202 2014-01-21 16:32:23 <TD> sort of
1203 2014-01-21 16:32:25 <TD> i guess so
1204 2014-01-21 16:32:33 <TD> it's just not a part of SSL or anything
1205 2014-01-21 16:32:53 <kinlo> too bad
1206 2014-01-21 16:32:55 <TD> i mean the detached signature doesn't have to be offered by the signer
1207 2014-01-21 16:33:14 Subo1977 has joined
1208 2014-01-21 16:33:29 <kinlo> but if I'm not mistaken, a CA is referred by the signature of it's public key
1209 2014-01-21 16:33:56 <kinlo> you can create 2 CA's which are equally accepted as the parent of a public key, with completly different data in them
1210 2014-01-21 16:34:16 <kinlo> as long as they are created based on the same public key (and not self-signed coz then you'd need the private key too)
1211 2014-01-21 16:34:35 <kinlo> so maybe it is possible to just rewrite the root ca's to have one common ancestor
1212 2014-01-21 16:34:41 <kinlo> using the default CA protocol
1213 2014-01-21 16:35:02 <kinlo> I'd have to verify this, but I remember once having two root certificates, both valid for the same child
1214 2014-01-21 16:35:17 ralphtheninja has joined
1215 2014-01-21 16:35:50 <kinlo> just need a download protocol to distribute those new root certificates
1216 2014-01-21 16:36:43 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1217 2014-01-21 16:38:58 jeewee1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1218 2014-01-21 16:41:09 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1219 2014-01-21 16:44:24 IGHOR has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1220 2014-01-21 16:44:36 TD has joined
1221 2014-01-21 16:45:57 IGHOR has joined
1222 2014-01-21 16:46:28 porquilho has joined
1223 2014-01-21 16:46:46 <TD> hmm
1224 2014-01-21 16:48:53 <TD> coffee shop wifi is annoying :)
1225 2014-01-21 16:49:28 <sipa> 4G go go go
1226 2014-01-21 16:49:57 <TD> i need to buy a pay as you go card for the UK, though then my number would change.
1227 2014-01-21 16:50:04 <TD> telcos suck. sigh.
1228 2014-01-21 16:50:25 ralphtheninja has quit (Quit: leaving)
1229 2014-01-21 16:51:16 ThomasV has joined
1230 2014-01-21 16:51:36 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1231 2014-01-21 16:52:18 wallet42 has joined
1232 2014-01-21 16:52:59 IGHOR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1233 2014-01-21 16:53:06 mitz has joined
1234 2014-01-21 16:53:27 IGHOR has joined
1235 2014-01-21 16:53:45 cr3pe has quit (Quit: leaving)
1236 2014-01-21 16:55:06 Grouver has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1237 2014-01-21 16:55:53 Ursium has quit (Quit: Ursium)
1238 2014-01-21 16:58:11 <TD> sipa: if you don't mind i'm thinking of rewriting most of BIP32
1239 2014-01-21 16:58:20 <TD> sipa: i find the current way it's written to be very confusing
1240 2014-01-21 16:58:28 <sipa> TD: if you can clarify things, sure
1241 2014-01-21 16:58:43 <sipa> but i'd like to know how/what you'd change things in advance, though :)
1242 2014-01-21 16:58:54 <sipa> TD: i paid for my .be data/phone using BTC, btw :)
1243 2014-01-21 16:59:10 <TD> nice :)
1244 2014-01-21 16:59:26 <TD> i would:
1245 2014-01-21 16:59:33 <TD> 1) scrap the use of ' notation everywhere. also scrap the use of greek letters.
1246 2014-01-21 16:59:37 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1247 2014-01-21 16:59:47 <sipa> well, if you have alternatives, sure
1248 2014-01-21 16:59:50 <TD> 2) merge CKD and CKD' into one algorithm and scrap the private vs public key derivation function distinction
1249 2014-01-21 17:00:06 <TD> i'd probably try and call it key neutering everywhere
1250 2014-01-21 17:00:11 <sipa> how can you merge them? they operate on different data types
1251 2014-01-21 17:00:12 rdymac has joined
1252 2014-01-21 17:00:44 <sipa> the naming private/public is conflated in several ways in the document, avoiding those terms would certainly be welcome
1253 2014-01-21 17:01:29 <TD> indeed. the prime notation is deeply problematic as well - if you read CKD' as "CKD public" then it's natural to assume that 0' means "zero public derivation". in fact it is defined to mean "zero private derivation"
1254 2014-01-21 17:01:36 <TD> that switcharoo has given me a headache several times
1255 2014-01-21 17:01:40 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
1256 2014-01-21 17:01:59 <sipa> perhaps this would make sense: have a diagram with 4 nodes (parent public, parent private, child public, child private)
1257 2014-01-21 17:02:13 <sipa> with all arrows between them explained
1258 2014-01-21 17:02:14 <TD> one thing that has been causing confusion for me is that i'm implementing the key hierarchy to not store private keys for leaf nodes ever, and rederive them on the fly
1259 2014-01-21 17:02:14 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
1260 2014-01-21 17:02:32 <TD> and in an encrypted hierarchy, i need to derive a pubkey only "watching" key from a parent key where the private key bytes are encrypted (i.e. not available)
1261 2014-01-21 17:02:46 <TD> so this confusion between private and public derivation rapidly makes the code unreadable
1262 2014-01-21 17:02:50 eoss has joined
1263 2014-01-21 17:03:20 drayah_ has joined
1264 2014-01-21 17:03:32 <sipa> i've asked several people for suggestions for the 0 vs 0' distinction (and calling it private/public, even with different notation, is still confusing)
1265 2014-01-21 17:03:41 <sipa> maybe private-only subkey
1266 2014-01-21 17:03:46 damethos has joined
1267 2014-01-21 17:04:03 <TD> the whole notion itself is just horribly confusing :) what it's doing is "neutering" a key
1268 2014-01-21 17:04:15 <TD> but in such a way that it doesn't work how you would imagine it works
1269 2014-01-21 17:04:31 IGHOR has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1270 2014-01-21 17:04:33 <TD> you know, i derive a key tree from a seed. so far so good. now i want to hand out a watching wallet
1271 2014-01-21 17:04:35 <TD> what do i do?!
1272 2014-01-21 17:04:43 <sipa> hmm, neutering has been used (though not in the BIP, iirc) to go private->public
1273 2014-01-21 17:05:03 Plinker_ has joined
1274 2014-01-21 17:05:10 <sipa> the /n' derivation (however you want to call it) is one that exactly prevents neutering
1275 2014-01-21 17:05:16 <sipa> (in that meaning)
1276 2014-01-21 17:05:29 <TD> this whole spec is so confusing i strongly suspect we will find there are interop problems after it's implemented :(
1277 2014-01-21 17:05:45 <sipa> that's a very good reason to improve it
1278 2014-01-21 17:05:59 <sipa> but i'd like to hear a more concrete proposal for how you'd explain things first
1279 2014-01-21 17:06:00 <TD> yes so when you have /0 without the prime marker, that means it's been neutered, right?
1280 2014-01-21 17:06:00 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1281 2014-01-21 17:06:08 <sipa> no?
1282 2014-01-21 17:06:11 <TD> to explain it better i have to understand it, and i can't
1283 2014-01-21 17:06:16 <TD> so perhaps you have to do it :)
1284 2014-01-21 17:06:40 <sipa> the <key/.../../..> notation doesn't refer to private vs public
1285 2014-01-21 17:06:44 <sipa> it's just keys
1286 2014-01-21 17:06:59 <TD> right, it refers to which algorithm to run (CKD vs CKD')
1287 2014-01-21 17:07:04 <sipa> no
1288 2014-01-21 17:07:07 <sipa> not that either
1289 2014-01-21 17:07:27 <sipa> CKD is a function to go from parent private key to child private key
1290 2014-01-21 17:07:48 <TD> yes, right, it sets the high bit when CKD is run
1291 2014-01-21 17:07:51 <sipa> CKD' is a function to go from parent public key to child public key, and can only be used if the derivation isn't a <n>' one
1292 2014-01-21 17:07:57 <sipa> no
1293 2014-01-21 17:08:07 Neozonz has joined
1294 2014-01-21 17:08:07 Neozonz has quit (Discx2!~Neozonz@135-23-85-251.cpe.pppoe.ca|Changing host)
1295 2014-01-21 17:08:07 Neozonz has joined
1296 2014-01-21 17:08:08 <TD> To shorten notation, we will write CKD(CKD(CKD(m,0x8000003),0x2),0x5) as m/3'/2/5 now.
1297 2014-01-21 17:08:15 <sipa> right!
1298 2014-01-21 17:08:25 <TD> that's what i mean - the ' mark sets the high bit when CKD is run
1299 2014-01-21 17:08:32 <sipa> yes, that's correct - i interpreted your sentence differently
1300 2014-01-21 17:08:57 <sipa> sorry, gtg
1301 2014-01-21 17:08:57 <TD> oh yes. the spec also contains an unfinished sentence
1302 2014-01-21 17:09:04 <TD> Note that the extended public key corresponding to the evaluation of CKD(kext, i) with public derivation (so with i ext, i), with Kext the extended public key corresponding to kext.
1303 2014-01-21 17:09:05 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1304 2014-01-21 17:09:08 <TD> that sentence doesn't parse, gramataically
1305 2014-01-21 17:09:10 <TD> ok, see you
1306 2014-01-21 17:09:45 Uglux has joined
1307 2014-01-21 17:09:57 sassamo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1308 2014-01-21 17:10:25 debiantoruser has joined
1309 2014-01-21 17:10:33 sassamo has joined
1310 2014-01-21 17:10:58 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1311 2014-01-21 17:12:28 sassamo_ has joined
1312 2014-01-21 17:12:33 safa has left ()
1313 2014-01-21 17:12:49 <swulf--> Hey.. I'm thinking about the 'getheaders' command and wondering ... there's no way to parallel-ize the download? it's simply <getheaders> <connect headers> <get headers> <connect headers> .. rinse and repeat? Connect headers on 2000 blocks is fast enough that it doesn't make sense to issue getheaders during the connect, does it?
1314 2014-01-21 17:14:39 sassamo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1315 2014-01-21 17:14:40 <swulf--> if i knew the hash of every 2000th block in advance, then the getheaders could be thrown against a few peers at a time
1316 2014-01-21 17:14:55 FabianB has joined
1317 2014-01-21 17:15:03 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1318 2014-01-21 17:15:41 debiantoruser has joined
1319 2014-01-21 17:15:43 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1320 2014-01-21 17:16:11 jps has joined
1321 2014-01-21 17:16:28 btiefert3 has joined
1322 2014-01-21 17:17:11 MoALTz_ has joined
1323 2014-01-21 17:17:21 askmike_ has joined
1324 2014-01-21 17:17:34 wallet421 has joined
1325 2014-01-21 17:17:34 wallet42 has quit (Killed (barjavel.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
1326 2014-01-21 17:17:34 wallet421 is now known as wallet42
1327 2014-01-21 17:17:42 Charlie has joined
1328 2014-01-21 17:18:01 drayah_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1329 2014-01-21 17:18:03 sassamo has joined
1330 2014-01-21 17:18:13 <sipa> swulf--: yes, headers-first downloading relies on that
1331 2014-01-21 17:18:27 <sipa> first build and verify the headers-chain, and the download the blocks in parallel from all peers
1332 2014-01-21 17:18:40 drayah has joined
1333 2014-01-21 17:18:45 Eiii has joined
1334 2014-01-21 17:18:57 enquirer2 has joined
1335 2014-01-21 17:19:23 Charlie has left ()
1336 2014-01-21 17:19:36 Matt_von_Mises1 has joined
1337 2014-01-21 17:19:39 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1338 2014-01-21 17:19:43 enquirer has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1339 2014-01-21 17:19:43 ivan` has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1340 2014-01-21 17:19:43 Matt_von_Mises has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1341 2014-01-21 17:19:44 gfawkes__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1342 2014-01-21 17:19:45 Wrenuld has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1343 2014-01-21 17:19:45 UukGoblin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1344 2014-01-21 17:19:46 Prattler has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1345 2014-01-21 17:19:46 swulf-- has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1346 2014-01-21 17:19:46 javax has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1347 2014-01-21 17:19:47 crescendo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1348 2014-01-21 17:19:47 mhanne has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1349 2014-01-21 17:19:47 mhanne has joined
1350 2014-01-21 17:19:53 sassamo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1351 2014-01-21 17:19:54 Eiii has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1352 2014-01-21 17:19:54 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1353 2014-01-21 17:19:54 askmike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1354 2014-01-21 17:19:54 paracyst has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1355 2014-01-21 17:19:54 btiefert2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1356 2014-01-21 17:19:55 Sami345 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1357 2014-01-21 17:19:55 ppcko has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1358 2014-01-21 17:20:00 Sami345 has joined
1359 2014-01-21 17:20:01 Prattler has joined
1360 2014-01-21 17:20:02 ppcko has joined
1361 2014-01-21 17:20:03 swulf-- has joined
1362 2014-01-21 17:20:05 mhanne has quit (Changing host)
1363 2014-01-21 17:20:05 mhanne has joined
1364 2014-01-21 17:20:26 ivan` has joined
1365 2014-01-21 17:20:33 <swulf--> makes sense
1366 2014-01-21 17:20:40 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1367 2014-01-21 17:20:42 ivan` has quit (Changing host)
1368 2014-01-21 17:20:42 ivan` has joined
1369 2014-01-21 17:20:47 crescendo has joined
1370 2014-01-21 17:20:50 digitalmagus2 has quit ()
1371 2014-01-21 17:21:08 crescendo has quit (Changing host)
1372 2014-01-21 17:21:08 crescendo has joined
1373 2014-01-21 17:21:23 drayah has joined
1374 2014-01-21 17:22:56 sassamo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1375 2014-01-21 17:23:20 mynameis has joined
1376 2014-01-21 17:23:30 sassamo has joined
1377 2014-01-21 17:24:33 javax has joined
1378 2014-01-21 17:24:50 Vinnie_win has quit ()
1379 2014-01-21 17:27:02 Wrenuld has joined
1380 2014-01-21 17:27:05 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1381 2014-01-21 17:27:27 <TD> sipa: when deriving m/0'/0 the child key is derived entirely from the parent public key and the chain code?
1382 2014-01-21 17:27:48 <sipa> in which step?
1383 2014-01-21 17:27:59 <sipa> and when deriving what?
1384 2014-01-21 17:28:05 <TD> the last one. deriving 0 from 0'
1385 2014-01-21 17:28:26 UukGoblin has joined
1386 2014-01-21 17:28:27 sassamo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1387 2014-01-21 17:28:30 <sipa> you can either use pub(m/0') and derive pub(m/0'/0) from it using CKD'
1388 2014-01-21 17:28:32 <TD> the recommended wallet structure is m/0'/0/0 for the first external key, right
1389 2014-01-21 17:28:53 <sipa> or you can use priv(m/0') and derive priv(m/0'/0) from it using CKD, and then convert it to a public key
1390 2014-01-21 17:29:46 <TD> ah yes. i mis-read the case of the K in step 4 of CKD
1391 2014-01-21 17:29:51 <TD> that makes more sense now
1392 2014-01-21 17:29:52 <swulf--> sipa: the wiki says (about getheaders), "Keep in mind that some clients (specifically the Satoshi client) will gladly provide headers of blocks which are invalid if the block locator object contains a hash on the invalid branch.". This isn't a concern if the blocklocator goes deep enough and has at least one hash on the best chain, right?
1393 2014-01-21 17:30:21 <sipa> swulf--: that's no different from normal syncing
1394 2014-01-21 17:30:29 <swulf--> thats what I thought
1395 2014-01-21 17:30:30 <swulf--> thanks
1396 2014-01-21 17:30:31 <sipa> the client determines which chain is valid (obviously)
1397 2014-01-21 17:30:35 <sipa> not the sender
1398 2014-01-21 17:31:06 <swulf--> well, if the client believes some chain the best because that's all it knows about, how does it get blocks on the other chain?
1399 2014-01-21 17:31:06 <jcorgan> sipa: now I don't feel so bad about struggling to get BIP0032 right :)
1400 2014-01-21 17:31:37 <sipa> swulf--: by asking for what peers things is best
1401 2014-01-21 17:31:56 Grishnakh has joined
1402 2014-01-21 17:32:01 <swulf--> hmm
1403 2014-01-21 17:32:45 <TD> woo. unit tests pass, finally :)
1404 2014-01-21 17:32:51 <TD> i think i'm finally starting to grok this
1405 2014-01-21 17:32:54 <sipa> \o/
1406 2014-01-21 17:33:05 <sipa> you are hereby qualified to improve bip32 :p
1407 2014-01-21 17:33:16 <TD> haha
1408 2014-01-21 17:33:33 <TD> well, right now what i'm most qualified to do is go to the bathroom and then head over to a london bitcoin meetup and give a talk on stuff i actually do understand :-)
1409 2014-01-21 17:33:36 debianto1user has joined
1410 2014-01-21 17:33:47 <jcorgan> i think it is a matter of terminology and the order in which things are presented
1411 2014-01-21 17:33:53 <sipa> yes
1412 2014-01-21 17:34:04 <sipa> i'm very aware some things are worded confusingly
1413 2014-01-21 17:34:23 <sipa> but apart from some minor tweaks, i don't have a really good idea of how to present the big picture better
1414 2014-01-21 17:34:58 <TD> the complexity comes from the high bit tweak
1415 2014-01-21 17:35:09 <TD> if it weren't for that there'd just be a tree of keys, and they'd always be derived in the same way
1416 2014-01-21 17:35:18 <TD> (essentially)
1417 2014-01-21 17:35:19 <sipa> yup
1418 2014-01-21 17:35:19 <jcorgan> well, i'd start by not overloading the two completely orthogonal ideas of "public/private child key derivation" and "public/private derivation"
1419 2014-01-21 17:35:45 <TD> right. this sort of language is confusing
1420 2014-01-21 17:35:45 <sipa> jcorgan: yeah, if you have a suggestion for a better name for the second, please tell me!
1421 2014-01-21 17:35:50 Ursium has joined
1422 2014-01-21 17:35:53 <sipa> (as i've asked before)
1423 2014-01-21 17:35:55 <TD> header: Private child key derivation
1424 2014-01-21 17:35:56 <jcorgan> "standard" and "prime"?
1425 2014-01-21 17:36:02 <TD> Check whether the highest bit (0x80000000) of i is set: If 0, public derivation is used
1426 2014-01-21 17:36:12 <TD> jcorgan: then you overload the word "prime" to mean not prime numbers ;)
1427 2014-01-21 17:36:25 <TD> how about "tweaked" vs "normal"?
1428 2014-01-21 17:36:26 <sipa> jcorgan: that doesn't really convey meaning, we want to get rid of the ambiguous "prime" as well
1429 2014-01-21 17:36:32 <jcorgan> yeah
1430 2014-01-21 17:36:32 <sipa> TD: also meaningless
1431 2014-01-21 17:36:40 <jcorgan> just something i thought of quickly
1432 2014-01-21 17:36:48 <TD> for the scope of this document it can be assigned meaning, as long as its meaning doesn't change
1433 2014-01-21 17:36:52 <sipa> best i have is private-only derivation vs normal derivation
1434 2014-01-21 17:36:59 <TD> the problem with prime is that it means two different things at different points in the document
1435 2014-01-21 17:37:11 <TD> and public/private refers to the parts of a key
1436 2014-01-21 17:37:13 <jcorgan> also, i'd start by explaining that the choice of CKD vs. CKD' dependings on what you are starting with (xpub or xprv)
1437 2014-01-21 17:37:22 <TD> ok, need to go. ttyl guys.
1438 2014-01-21 17:37:24 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1439 2014-01-21 17:37:46 <jcorgan> and only afterwards, say that CKD has two variants, in order to avoid the compromise weakness
1440 2014-01-21 17:38:08 <sipa> CKD((kpar, cpar), i) â (ki, ci):
1441 2014-01-21 17:38:15 <sipa> CKD'((Kpar, cpar), i) â (Ki, ci):
1442 2014-01-21 17:38:28 <sipa> that's obvious that it's about prv->prv and pub->pub, no?
1443 2014-01-21 17:38:37 <jcorgan> right, but the BIP jumps right into formulas, and doesn't spell it out
1444 2014-01-21 17:38:43 <sipa> right
1445 2014-01-21 17:39:15 <jcorgan> can I send you a very preliminary introduction (PDF) for an article i'm writing to trying to make this more accessible?
1446 2014-01-21 17:39:21 <sipa> sure
1447 2014-01-21 17:39:29 <sipa> i'd rather see you improve the BIP :)
1448 2014-01-21 17:39:52 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1449 2014-01-21 17:40:19 UukGoblin has quit (Changing host)
1450 2014-01-21 17:40:19 UukGoblin has joined
1451 2014-01-21 17:40:24 Anduck has joined
1452 2014-01-21 17:40:32 <sipa> how about calling the /0' step "hardened derivation" ?
1453 2014-01-21 17:40:37 <jcorgan> well, even with an improved BIP, the article will be more about properties of HDW, various scenarios, etc., stuff not really needed for the BIP
1454 2014-01-21 17:40:41 <sipa> as it's more secure against some problems?
1455 2014-01-21 17:41:44 <jcorgan> that's an improvement, but you still are overloading "derivation"?
1456 2014-01-21 17:41:47 datagutt has joined
1457 2014-01-21 17:41:57 <sipa> i guess it's really a "hardened key"
1458 2014-01-21 17:49:15 wallet42 has joined
1459 2014-01-21 17:51:39 <jcorgan> kinda liking "hardened key"
1460 2014-01-21 17:53:06 <sipa> good
1461 2014-01-21 17:53:17 <sipa> now, how do we call a non-hardened key?
1462 2014-01-21 17:53:49 <jcorgan> key?
1463 2014-01-21 17:54:26 sassamo has joined
1464 2014-01-21 17:54:31 <sipa> "key" is used for 20 other things as wel
1465 2014-01-21 17:54:40 <sipa> and even "normal key" doesn't really convey much meaning
1466 2014-01-21 17:54:55 <sipa> but "non-hardened key" is so verbose
1467 2014-01-21 17:56:00 <jcorgan> well, you call a "child key derivation" function (CKD) to create a child key, and you can call it one way to create a regulard child key, or you can call it another way (') to created a hardened child key
1468 2014-01-21 17:56:08 <jcorgan> does that flow well?
1469 2014-01-21 17:57:06 <sipa> meh, don't like that
1470 2014-01-21 17:57:32 <sipa> as you really only have one function (privkey,i) -> (child_privkey_i)
1471 2014-01-21 17:57:36 nickler has joined
1472 2014-01-21 17:58:05 <jcorgan> but you just intentionally made i|0x8000000 mean something different
1473 2014-01-21 17:58:23 <sipa> right, but the function doesn't see the ', it just i
1474 2014-01-21 17:58:30 saivann has joined
1475 2014-01-21 17:58:32 <jcorgan> that would be no different from CKD(k, c, i, hardened=true|false)
1476 2014-01-21 17:58:49 <sipa> except i cannot be the whole range anymore
1477 2014-01-21 17:58:58 <sipa> and it will duplicate some part
1478 2014-01-21 17:59:01 <jcorgan> internally it has to if-else what to do by testing that bit
1479 2014-01-21 17:59:27 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
1480 2014-01-21 17:59:34 <jcorgan> so my point is, you call CKD to get a child key at index i
1481 2014-01-21 17:59:34 <sipa> right, the implementation depends on that bit
1482 2014-01-21 17:59:40 <sipa> but it's not a different *function*
1483 2014-01-21 18:00:03 <sipa> every key has 2^32 subkeys, and half of them are derived in one way, and half in another wya
1484 2014-01-21 18:00:05 <jcorgan> yeah, i agree, i was using the terminology to call it one way or the other, where 'it' is a single function
1485 2014-01-21 18:00:24 Ursium has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1486 2014-01-21 18:00:52 <jcorgan> yeah, but in the keyspec you identify it as, say, 5 or 5'. That tends to create the impression that 5' is the hardened version of 5, when it is really unrelated.
1487 2014-01-21 18:01:09 <sipa> i should just get rid of the ' notation
1488 2014-01-21 18:01:12 <sipa> and use the full numbers
1489 2014-01-21 18:01:26 debianto1user has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1490 2014-01-21 18:01:46 <jcorgan> keys whose indices are > 2**31 refer to the hardened key algorithm
1491 2014-01-21 18:01:52 <sipa> yep
1492 2014-01-21 18:02:25 neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1493 2014-01-21 18:02:25 <jcorgan> except "m/0'/..." becomes "m/2147483648"
1494 2014-01-21 18:02:32 <jcorgan> not really an improvement
1495 2014-01-21 18:02:45 sassamo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1496 2014-01-21 18:02:51 <jcorgan> any quibbles with that intro doc?
1497 2014-01-21 18:02:52 debiantoruser has joined
1498 2014-01-21 18:03:15 neozonz has joined
1499 2014-01-21 18:03:28 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1500 2014-01-21 18:03:35 Uglux has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1501 2014-01-21 18:03:36 ioi has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1502 2014-01-21 18:04:27 <jcorgan> i actually think the original 5 or 5' idea works a lot better once you adopt the "hardened" child key terminology
1503 2014-01-21 18:04:58 <jcorgan> except may don't use ', instead p or h
1504 2014-01-21 18:05:01 <jcorgan> h
1505 2014-01-21 18:05:47 ioi has joined
1506 2014-01-21 18:05:54 mynameis has joined
1507 2014-01-21 18:06:45 smash_ has joined
1508 2014-01-21 18:06:51 <sipa> or 5 vs 5h
1509 2014-01-21 18:07:06 <sipa> the problem is, there is no relation between them
1510 2014-01-21 18:07:07 <jcorgan> i like that
1511 2014-01-21 18:07:21 <sipa> but not reusing termonilogy should already fix that
1512 2014-01-21 18:07:26 <sipa> terminology
1513 2014-01-21 18:07:48 brson has joined
1514 2014-01-21 18:08:01 <jcorgan> well, you could interpret that as "choose index 5 from the regular set of child keys, or choose index 5 from the set of hardened child keys"
1515 2014-01-21 18:08:45 twizt has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1516 2014-01-21 18:10:14 nickler has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1517 2014-01-21 18:12:10 [Author] has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
1518 2014-01-21 18:12:14 jn7n has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1519 2014-01-21 18:12:38 [Author] has joined
1520 2014-01-21 18:13:18 askmike_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1521 2014-01-21 18:13:27 askmike has joined
1522 2014-01-21 18:14:08 jn7n has joined
1523 2014-01-21 18:14:09 gfawkes__ has joined
1524 2014-01-21 18:14:45 sassamo has joined
1525 2014-01-21 18:15:39 Jere_Jones has quit ()
1526 2014-01-21 18:16:14 lifeofcray has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1527 2014-01-21 18:17:35 <jcorgan> bbiab
1528 2014-01-21 18:17:57 ralphtheninja has joined
1529 2014-01-21 18:19:07 jn7n has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1530 2014-01-21 18:20:26 jn7n has joined
1531 2014-01-21 18:20:34 digitalmagus2 has joined
1532 2014-01-21 18:20:45 VinceSam_ has joined
1533 2014-01-21 18:21:53 ShadowNET has joined
1534 2014-01-21 18:21:59 Blackreign has joined
1535 2014-01-21 18:22:42 VinceSamios has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1536 2014-01-21 18:25:20 ahbiscui_ has quit (Quit: Bye)
1537 2014-01-21 18:25:39 biscuits has joined
1538 2014-01-21 18:26:07 BenderCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1539 2014-01-21 18:26:37 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1540 2014-01-21 18:28:05 debiantoruser has joined
1541 2014-01-21 18:28:32 ShadowNET has left ()
1542 2014-01-21 18:29:11 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1543 2014-01-21 18:29:50 <jcorgan> so, i have a more controversial proposed change
1544 2014-01-21 18:30:12 ahbritto has joined
1545 2014-01-21 18:30:47 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1546 2014-01-21 18:31:05 <jcorgan> what is the motivation for encoding the high bit as way to select from the hardened set?
1547 2014-01-21 18:31:52 <sipa> the real reason is probably that i didn't want to change the serialization format
1548 2014-01-21 18:32:01 <sipa> at that stage
1549 2014-01-21 18:32:13 Belkaar has joined
1550 2014-01-21 18:32:28 <jcorgan> instead, we could simply restrict the range of i to 0..2**31-1, then define CKD(k, c, i, hardened=true|false) and CKDp(K, c, i).
1551 2014-01-21 18:32:54 <sipa> same problem: those i's aren't related
1552 2014-01-21 18:32:57 <jcorgan> Internally, CKD could or the bit in for purposes of the calc, and there would be no way to request a hardened key from CKDp
1553 2014-01-21 18:33:18 <jcorgan> s/hardened/use hardened set/
1554 2014-01-21 18:33:45 <jcorgan> serialization could still use the high bit then
1555 2014-01-21 18:35:04 BenderCoin has joined
1556 2014-01-21 18:35:07 viperhr has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1557 2014-01-21 18:35:24 <jcorgan> i think to generate 5 or 5h by calling CKD(k, c, 5, false) and CKD(k, c, 5, true) is simple, and there doesn't have to be the implication that 5 and 5h are related
1558 2014-01-21 18:35:39 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1559 2014-01-21 18:36:00 <sipa> how about CKD(k, c, 5) and CKD(k, c, 5h) :)
1560 2014-01-21 18:36:03 <jcorgan> the user doesn't have to bother with high bit encoding, and it would be impossible to try to call CKDp with the high bit set
1561 2014-01-21 18:36:12 <jcorgan> :)
1562 2014-01-21 18:36:20 ahbritto has joined
1563 2014-01-21 18:36:26 <sipa> the reason i'm insisting, is because it is essentially a different key
1564 2014-01-21 18:36:32 <jcorgan> of course it is
1565 2014-01-21 18:36:39 <sipa> it's not a different or alternative form of another key
1566 2014-01-21 18:36:45 <sipa> it's just a distinct set of subkeys
1567 2014-01-21 18:37:45 <jcorgan> the could be a better way to abbreviate CKD(k, c, 5, choose_from_the_set_of_hardened_keys=True)
1568 2014-01-21 18:38:47 <jcorgan> that implies 5 is an index into unrelated key lists, not that you are taking 5 and hardening into 5h
1569 2014-01-21 18:39:00 da2ce7 has joined
1570 2014-01-21 18:39:51 b4epoche has joined
1571 2014-01-21 18:41:05 biscuits has quit (Quit: Bye)
1572 2014-01-21 18:41:30 <jcorgan> and again, the user doesn't worry about the high bit encoding, as that would be done internally, and, by eliminating that parameter in the argument list for CKDp, it is conceptually easier to understand that "you can't do that"
1573 2014-01-21 18:41:36 roconnor has joined
1574 2014-01-21 18:41:43 molson8472 has joined
1575 2014-01-21 18:42:37 molson8472 has quit (Client Quit)
1576 2014-01-21 18:42:53 molson8472 has joined
1577 2014-01-21 18:43:15 b4epoche_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1578 2014-01-21 18:44:31 VinceSam_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1579 2014-01-21 18:44:55 molson8472 has quit (Client Quit)
1580 2014-01-21 18:45:16 molson8472 has joined
1581 2014-01-21 18:45:24 masber has joined
1582 2014-01-21 18:49:46 viperhr has joined
1583 2014-01-21 18:52:25 molson8472 is now known as mattolson
1584 2014-01-21 18:53:38 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1585 2014-01-21 18:53:57 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1586 2014-01-21 18:54:06 mattolson is now known as mo8472
1587 2014-01-21 18:54:31 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1588 2014-01-21 18:54:37 anon2428 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1589 2014-01-21 18:55:05 anon2428 has joined
1590 2014-01-21 18:55:37 debiantoruser has joined
1591 2014-01-21 18:56:37 mo8472 has quit (Quit: Bye)
1592 2014-01-21 18:57:12 mattolson has joined
1593 2014-01-21 18:57:50 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1594 2014-01-21 19:00:10 askmike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1595 2014-01-21 19:00:27 askmike has joined
1596 2014-01-21 19:00:29 skydome has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1597 2014-01-21 19:00:46 skydome has joined
1598 2014-01-21 19:01:25 <jcorgan> sipa: so how could I summarize these proposed changes to the BIP in a way that others can comment on--bct.org?
1599 2014-01-21 19:01:32 sassamo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1600 2014-01-21 19:02:08 sassamo has joined
1601 2014-01-21 19:02:54 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: bitcoin-development ML
1602 2014-01-21 19:02:58 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: bct is for trolling
1603 2014-01-21 19:04:38 Subo1977 has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1604 2014-01-21 19:04:59 Subo1977 has joined
1605 2014-01-21 19:05:36 <jcorgan> heh, i didn't think i could say that out loud :)
1606 2014-01-21 19:06:20 hydrogenesis has joined
1607 2014-01-21 19:09:24 wallet42 has joined
1608 2014-01-21 19:10:01 <jcorgan> will do
1609 2014-01-21 19:11:59 drayah has joined
1610 2014-01-21 19:15:32 <sipa> jcorgan: you can also just file a bug agains tthe bips repository
1611 2014-01-21 19:15:35 <sipa> on github
1612 2014-01-21 19:16:11 <sipa> and mail about it to the ML
1613 2014-01-21 19:16:29 <jcorgan> ok, got it
1614 2014-01-21 19:19:27 sassamo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1615 2014-01-21 19:20:03 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1616 2014-01-21 19:20:11 Lexa_ has joined
1617 2014-01-21 19:20:38 sassamo has joined
1618 2014-01-21 19:20:46 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
1619 2014-01-21 19:21:46 ielo has joined
1620 2014-01-21 19:22:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|15:21:36 <wumpus> lol !define: "MUI_UNWELCOMEFINISHPAGE_BITMAP"="/home/ubuntu/build64/distsrc/share/pixmaps/nsis-wizard.bmp" ... so there's an UNWELCOME page too? :p
1621 2014-01-21 19:22:39 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1622 2014-01-21 19:22:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Looks like that's for the uninstaller
1623 2014-01-21 19:23:23 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1624 2014-01-21 19:23:23 sensorii has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1625 2014-01-21 19:23:43 Lexa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1626 2014-01-21 19:23:44 wiretapped has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1627 2014-01-21 19:23:44 KillYourTV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1628 2014-01-21 19:23:48 debiantoruser has joined
1629 2014-01-21 19:23:51 Lexa_ is now known as Lexa
1630 2014-01-21 19:23:59 go1111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1631 2014-01-21 19:24:20 Lexa has quit (Client Quit)
1632 2014-01-21 19:25:12 Lexa has joined
1633 2014-01-21 19:25:43 wiretapped has joined
1634 2014-01-21 19:27:50 sensorii has joined
1635 2014-01-21 19:28:41 <jgarzik> meh, manual wallet defrag
1636 2014-01-21 19:28:43 KillYourTV has joined
1637 2014-01-21 19:28:46 <jgarzik> why hasn't someone automated this?
1638 2014-01-21 19:29:00 random_cat has joined
1639 2014-01-21 19:31:15 <gmaxwell> I posted a python script for it a while back. May be bitrotted: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/groomer.py
1640 2014-01-21 19:32:47 FabianB has joined
1641 2014-01-21 19:32:52 BNCatDIGISHELL has quit (Quit: changing servers)
1642 2014-01-21 19:33:05 BNCatDIGISHELL has joined
1643 2014-01-21 19:34:09 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1644 2014-01-21 19:36:35 FabianB_ has joined
1645 2014-01-21 19:37:00 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1646 2014-01-21 19:37:16 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1647 2014-01-21 19:39:06 ahbritto has joined
1648 2014-01-21 19:40:23 freeyoself has joined
1649 2014-01-21 19:40:41 freeyoself has quit (Client Quit)
1650 2014-01-21 19:40:47 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1651 2014-01-21 19:42:00 t7 has joined
1652 2014-01-21 19:42:55 Namworld has joined
1653 2014-01-21 19:44:37 Matt_von_Mises1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1654 2014-01-21 19:44:40 Elmf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1655 2014-01-21 19:44:40 emowataji has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1656 2014-01-21 19:44:42 AriseChikun has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1657 2014-01-21 19:46:28 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1658 2014-01-21 19:47:41 ahbritto has joined
1659 2014-01-21 19:48:20 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1660 2014-01-21 19:49:35 debiantoruser has joined
1661 2014-01-21 19:50:22 wiretapped has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1662 2014-01-21 19:50:22 Lexa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1663 2014-01-21 19:50:35 wiretapped has joined
1664 2014-01-21 19:51:42 Lexa has joined
1665 2014-01-21 19:54:41 profreid has quit (Quit: profreid)
1666 2014-01-21 19:55:10 gavinandresen has joined
1667 2014-01-21 19:55:10 gavinandresen has quit (Changing host)
1668 2014-01-21 19:55:10 gavinandresen has joined
1669 2014-01-21 19:56:40 Jouke has quit (Changing host)
1670 2014-01-21 19:56:40 Jouke has joined
1671 2014-01-21 19:56:41 <Jouke> jgarzik: what do you mean with wallet defrag?
1672 2014-01-21 19:56:44 VinceSamios has joined
1673 2014-01-21 19:57:55 <jgarzik> Jouke, reduce number of UTXOs in your wallet
1674 2014-01-21 20:00:26 wei__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1675 2014-01-21 20:00:36 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1676 2014-01-21 20:00:57 <Jouke> jgarzik: ah ok. To speed up transaction creation?
1677 2014-01-21 20:01:16 <gmaxwell> Also useful is petertodd's dust-b-gone (gives away very small outputs)
1678 2014-01-21 20:01:22 ahbritto has joined
1679 2014-01-21 20:04:18 waxwing has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1680 2014-01-21 20:04:18 hmsimha has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1681 2014-01-21 20:07:40 sassamo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1682 2014-01-21 20:08:14 sassamo has joined
1683 2014-01-21 20:08:21 smash_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1684 2014-01-21 20:08:23 sassamo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1685 2014-01-21 20:08:55 sassamo has joined
1686 2014-01-21 20:11:53 hydrogenesis has quit (Quit: hydrogenesis)
1687 2014-01-21 20:13:00 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
1688 2014-01-21 20:13:13 smoked has joined
1689 2014-01-21 20:14:13 paracyst has joined
1690 2014-01-21 20:14:56 hydrogenesis has joined
1691 2014-01-21 20:15:02 hydrogenesis has quit (Client Quit)
1692 2014-01-21 20:15:57 Krellan_ has joined
1693 2014-01-21 20:17:03 waxwing has joined
1694 2014-01-21 20:17:30 ralphtheninja has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1695 2014-01-21 20:21:23 Andrevan has joined
1696 2014-01-21 20:21:24 RBRubicon has joined
1697 2014-01-21 20:22:51 ponzicrash has joined
1698 2014-01-21 20:24:00 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1699 2014-01-21 20:24:28 ponzicrash has quit (Client Quit)
1700 2014-01-21 20:25:51 debiantoruser has joined
1701 2014-01-21 20:28:39 mappum has joined
1702 2014-01-21 20:29:23 abourget has joined
1703 2014-01-21 20:29:35 <abourget> Has anyone run bitcoind inside a Docker container ?
1704 2014-01-21 20:29:44 <abourget> the thing jumps at 100% CPU
1705 2014-01-21 20:29:49 askmike has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1706 2014-01-21 20:30:37 <lianj> abourget: not enough entropy?
1707 2014-01-21 20:30:54 masber has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1708 2014-01-21 20:31:16 <lianj> wait 100% wouldn't make sense then
1709 2014-01-21 20:31:20 <abourget> hmm.. maybe it's because of the way I bootstrapped it
1710 2014-01-21 20:31:24 ProfMac has joined
1711 2014-01-21 20:31:42 <abourget> I copied the .bitcoin/ path from a previous install.. and it seems to be walking all the blocks again..
1712 2014-01-21 20:32:11 <abourget> ERROR: ProcessBlock() : already have block 274487 00000000000000026e5d9d23ea6a2683e8863fe9c9f8e92e27cf36fc08e832b7
1713 2014-01-21 20:32:15 <abourget> and its slowly incrementing
1714 2014-01-21 20:32:28 <abourget> perhaps I'd be better with downloading a bootstrap.dat snapshot ?
1715 2014-01-21 20:32:33 <abourget> would it go through the whole chain again anyway ?
1716 2014-01-21 20:33:28 askmike has joined
1717 2014-01-21 20:34:40 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
1718 2014-01-21 20:36:40 penumbra has joined
1719 2014-01-21 20:36:44 Matt_von_Mises has joined
1720 2014-01-21 20:37:04 Matt_von_Mises has quit (Client Quit)
1721 2014-01-21 20:40:14 Uglux has joined
1722 2014-01-21 20:42:27 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1723 2014-01-21 20:46:07 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1724 2014-01-21 20:48:14 dexX7 has joined
1725 2014-01-21 20:48:28 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1726 2014-01-21 20:49:12 ahbritto has joined
1727 2014-01-21 20:51:13 rdymac has joined
1728 2014-01-21 20:53:55 uiop has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1729 2014-01-21 20:56:03 smash_ has joined
1730 2014-01-21 21:00:00 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1731 2014-01-21 21:03:23 johnsoft has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1732 2014-01-21 21:04:04 johnsoft has joined
1733 2014-01-21 21:04:41 <abourget> ok, thanks :)
1734 2014-01-21 21:04:41 abourget has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
1735 2014-01-21 21:15:13 <dexX7> hey, what's the handiest way to collect all spendable outputs from multisig txs? the txs of interest have some simple reference to the address itself (e.g. addr is sender + has a mutlisig output including itself as receiver)
1736 2014-01-21 21:15:19 Mikej0h has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1737 2014-01-21 21:15:23 <dexX7> i was thinking about 1. get all tx for one address with listtransactions, 2. getrawtransaction for each tx, 3. filter multisig txs, 4. create trivial raw tx with the outputs from 3., 5. try to sign the raw tx. if it's accepted -> spendable mutlisig output identified.. but that seems kinda crude.
1738 2014-01-21 21:17:00 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1739 2014-01-21 21:17:50 roconnor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1740 2014-01-21 21:18:29 debiantoruser has joined
1741 2014-01-21 21:19:39 enquirer2 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1742 2014-01-21 21:20:12 enquirer has joined
1743 2014-01-21 21:31:40 lman has joined
1744 2014-01-21 21:31:56 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1745 2014-01-21 21:32:25 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1746 2014-01-21 21:34:26 ahbritto has joined
1747 2014-01-21 21:37:02 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1748 2014-01-21 21:37:17 ralphtheninja has joined
1749 2014-01-21 21:37:44 ahbritto has joined
1750 2014-01-21 21:37:52 EngierkO has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1751 2014-01-21 21:39:11 Drenllateno has joined
1752 2014-01-21 21:41:51 cadaverr has joined
1753 2014-01-21 21:44:28 debianto1user has joined
1754 2014-01-21 21:45:19 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1755 2014-01-21 21:45:24 mappum has joined
1756 2014-01-21 21:46:50 AusBitBank has joined
1757 2014-01-21 21:47:20 Andrevan has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2-rc1)
1758 2014-01-21 21:48:04 Application has joined
1759 2014-01-21 21:49:43 go1111111 has joined
1760 2014-01-21 21:51:52 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1761 2014-01-21 21:52:15 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1762 2014-01-21 21:52:30 agricocb has joined
1763 2014-01-21 21:53:13 rdymac has joined
1764 2014-01-21 21:54:33 nightlingo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1765 2014-01-21 21:55:15 hmmma has joined
1766 2014-01-21 21:59:15 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1767 2014-01-21 21:59:26 crescendo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1768 2014-01-21 21:59:34 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
1769 2014-01-21 22:00:43 enquirer has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1770 2014-01-21 22:01:00 ahbritto has joined
1771 2014-01-21 22:01:04 enquirer has joined
1772 2014-01-21 22:02:51 john5223 has joined
1773 2014-01-21 22:03:49 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1774 2014-01-21 22:03:54 mynameis has joined
1775 2014-01-21 22:04:30 ahbritto has joined
1776 2014-01-21 22:07:06 Uglux_ has joined
1777 2014-01-21 22:09:00 daybyter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1778 2014-01-21 22:10:02 penumbra has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1779 2014-01-21 22:10:10 debianto1user has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1780 2014-01-21 22:10:26 Uglux has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1781 2014-01-21 22:10:44 debianto1user has joined
1782 2014-01-21 22:11:43 go1111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1783 2014-01-21 22:12:50 Pullphinger has quit ()
1784 2014-01-21 22:14:17 go1111111 has joined
1785 2014-01-21 22:15:55 sacrelege has joined
1786 2014-01-21 22:18:01 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
1787 2014-01-21 22:18:26 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1788 2014-01-21 22:19:12 ahbritto has joined
1789 2014-01-21 22:19:59 RBRubicon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1790 2014-01-21 22:19:59 mynameis has joined
1791 2014-01-21 22:20:35 copumpkin has joined
1792 2014-01-21 22:20:45 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1793 2014-01-21 22:21:25 ahbritto has joined
1794 2014-01-21 22:21:39 copumpkin has quit (Client Quit)
1795 2014-01-21 22:22:49 go1111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1796 2014-01-21 22:23:40 copumpkin has joined
1797 2014-01-21 22:26:37 go1111111 has joined
1798 2014-01-21 22:26:55 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
1799 2014-01-21 22:32:52 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1800 2014-01-21 22:33:10 agricocb has joined
1801 2014-01-21 22:36:10 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1802 2014-01-21 22:39:47 sassamo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1803 2014-01-21 22:40:23 sassamo has joined
1804 2014-01-21 22:42:20 debianto1user has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1805 2014-01-21 22:44:02 debiantoruser has joined
1806 2014-01-21 22:44:48 sassamo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1807 2014-01-21 22:47:23 VinceSamios has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1808 2014-01-21 22:48:26 sassamo has joined
1809 2014-01-21 22:50:27 b4epoche_ has joined
1810 2014-01-21 22:51:05 mologie has joined
1811 2014-01-21 22:51:41 b4epoche has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1812 2014-01-21 22:52:02 sassamo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1813 2014-01-21 22:52:38 sassamo has joined
1814 2014-01-21 22:54:24 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1815 2014-01-21 22:57:14 sassamo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1816 2014-01-21 23:00:01 Ursium has joined
1817 2014-01-21 23:02:59 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1818 2014-01-21 23:04:46 TD has joined
1819 2014-01-21 23:09:14 mhanne has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1820 2014-01-21 23:09:31 mhanne has joined
1821 2014-01-21 23:09:31 mhanne has quit (Changing host)
1822 2014-01-21 23:09:31 mhanne has joined
1823 2014-01-21 23:10:34 john5223 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1824 2014-01-21 23:15:25 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1825 2014-01-21 23:15:57 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1826 2014-01-21 23:16:12 agricocb has joined
1827 2014-01-21 23:16:57 Application has joined
1828 2014-01-21 23:17:19 debiantoruser has joined
1829 2014-01-21 23:19:27 uiop has joined
1830 2014-01-21 23:20:03 uiop_ has joined
1831 2014-01-21 23:20:20 uiop_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1832 2014-01-21 23:21:00 uiop has quit (Disconnected by services)
1833 2014-01-21 23:21:34 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1834 2014-01-21 23:21:51 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1835 2014-01-21 23:22:31 uiop has joined
1836 2014-01-21 23:24:09 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1837 2014-01-21 23:25:15 nickler has joined
1838 2014-01-21 23:25:20 go1111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1839 2014-01-21 23:26:10 Application has joined
1840 2014-01-21 23:26:39 sassamo has joined
1841 2014-01-21 23:28:19 go1111111 has joined
1842 2014-01-21 23:32:54 hmmma1 has joined
1843 2014-01-21 23:34:13 hmmma has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1844 2014-01-21 23:35:19 sassamo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1845 2014-01-21 23:35:42 drayah has joined
1846 2014-01-21 23:35:45 sassamo has joined
1847 2014-01-21 23:38:06 thaReal has joined
1848 2014-01-21 23:40:16 sassamo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1849 2014-01-21 23:44:55 sassamo has joined
1850 2014-01-21 23:46:03 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1851 2014-01-21 23:47:28 nickler has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1852 2014-01-21 23:47:32 debiantoruser has joined
1853 2014-01-21 23:49:14 super3 has joined
1854 2014-01-21 23:49:43 MolokoDeck has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1855 2014-01-21 23:54:47 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1856 2014-01-21 23:55:11 agricocb has joined
1857 2014-01-21 23:56:06 john5223 has joined
1858 2014-01-21 23:59:06 Count_Niedar has joined