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9 2014-01-22 00:13:41 <shamoon> are all vin's of a tx from the same wallet? https://blockchain.info/tx/88e83e23e555aa15457656e70f5c5db3c541fa58d5953defee5730d63028944c
10 2014-01-22 00:14:35 <brisque> could be, doesn't have to be
11 2014-01-22 00:14:39 <shamoon> how could it not be?
12 2014-01-22 00:14:45 <pigeons> shamoon: ever try coinjoin?
13 2014-01-22 00:14:50 <pigeons> ;;cjs
14 2014-01-22 00:14:50 <gribble> Coinjoin Status: There is no currently open session. Visit https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/ or http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ to start one.
15 2014-01-22 00:14:57 <brisque> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.0
16 2014-01-22 00:15:35 <brisque> we could also sign a transaction together, there's nothing saying that every txout has to be from the same owner, it's just easier that way.
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19 2014-01-22 00:15:52 <shamoon> interesting
20 2014-01-22 00:17:12 <shamoon> so it's 90% likely (arbitrary number)
21 2014-01-22 00:17:15 <shamoon> but possible to not be
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23 2014-01-22 00:18:27 <brisque> it's likely but you can't expect it.
24 2014-01-22 00:18:30 <shamoon> gotcha
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30 2014-01-22 00:28:37 <SomeoneWeird> https://twitter.com/Cyborgmatt/status/425772973258444800
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108 2014-01-22 01:47:51 <corpster> I want to make a site with multiple wallets, and hoping the users can download their own wallet.dat file.. when programming with bitcoin-qt and with json, it looks like it just created new bitcoin address's for the 1 wallet.. is there an easyish way to create multiple wallets (not just address's) for each user?
109 2014-01-22 01:48:09 skydome has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
110 2014-01-22 01:50:04 <sipa> not yet
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114 2014-01-22 01:51:49 <corpster> so if i want to have wallets for users on my webpage, i just keep track probably by the label and I'll be able to steal all their money (if i wanted to, which i dont)
115 2014-01-22 01:51:55 <corpster> coz ill see all the wallets in bitcoin-qt
116 2014-01-22 01:52:04 <corpster> i mean all teh btc address's
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119 2014-01-22 01:55:11 <EasyAt> corpster: Sure. Good luck getting people to use your stie with that security model
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121 2014-01-22 01:55:27 <EasyAt> *lack of a security model*
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123 2014-01-22 01:57:16 <xdv> Hello
124 2014-01-22 01:57:46 <xdv> Is anyone here?
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126 2014-01-22 01:59:22 <sipa> no, sorry
127 2014-01-22 01:59:39 <xdv> If I were to set up a web service, and I wanted to be able to support lots of concurrent transactions, what would be my bottlenecks on the bitcoind server?
128 2014-01-22 02:00:02 <xdv> What would it take to handle a service with 1000s of transactions per second
129 2014-01-22 02:00:06 <corpster> easyat- kinda my point
130 2014-01-22 02:00:22 <jaakkos> xdv: the bitcoin network doesn't allow for that
131 2014-01-22 02:00:25 <sipa> xdv: bitcoin can only handle some 7 transactions per second
132 2014-01-22 02:00:28 <brisque> xdv: the network itself doesn't even do thousands a second.
133 2014-01-22 02:00:29 <sipa> on average
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135 2014-01-22 02:00:32 <corpster> so i'd have to get into bitcoind source and reprogram it suit my needs
136 2014-01-22 02:00:33 <corpster> ?
137 2014-01-22 02:00:56 <brisque> if you modify your client to accept more, you won't be on the bitcoin network anymore.
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139 2014-01-22 02:01:18 <xdv> So the transactions would take place off-chain and I would only broadcast on cash outs
140 2014-01-22 02:01:19 <sipa> brisque: not true until someone creates an actual block that exceeds the limits
141 2014-01-22 02:01:32 <sipa> xdv: for that, you don't need to interact with bitcoind :)
142 2014-01-22 02:01:42 <jaakkos> ... unless you want to use accounts
143 2014-01-22 02:01:45 <jaakkos> but you probably don't
144 2014-01-22 02:01:56 <brisque> sipa: well for all intents they'd be forked off as soon as they did, so the modification would be worthless
145 2014-01-22 02:02:04 <xdv> I'd want accounts and addresses people can deposit and withdraw from
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148 2014-01-22 02:03:49 <corpster> like how blockchain.info has their wallets setup. im assuming they wouldnt be using the bitcoin json server, they would have had to created their own bitcoind class?
149 2014-01-22 02:03:59 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
150 2014-01-22 02:04:31 <brisque> blockchain.info acts differently. a lot of the interaction happens on the servers side with javascript. it only does things like requesting unspent outputs from an API.
151 2014-01-22 02:04:38 <brisque> *happens on the client side
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153 2014-01-22 02:05:43 <corpster> server side with javascript?
154 2014-01-22 02:05:45 <corpster> oh yeah client side
155 2014-01-22 02:05:46 <corpster> makes more sense ;)
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157 2014-01-22 02:06:15 <brisque> server side javascript isn't as stupid as it sounds really. see nodeJS.
158 2014-01-22 02:07:18 <corpster> let me stick to 1 thing to research ;)
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160 2014-01-22 02:09:04 <xdv> sipa: To actually transfer in coins and manage the hotwallet, though, wouldn't I need bitcoind?
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162 2014-01-22 02:11:18 <SomeoneWeird> brisque, heh
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165 2014-01-22 02:14:37 <EasyAt> xdv: You don't *need* it. But it might be easier then coding up a custom client
166 2014-01-22 02:15:25 <xdv> Ahh, got it. Well for compatibility's sake, I will probably stick with bitcoind and a nodejs rpc client
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168 2014-01-22 02:15:58 <corpster> im confused to what an "ACCOUNT" is?
169 2014-01-22 02:16:01 <corpster> so a wallet can have multiple accounts
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171 2014-01-22 02:16:07 <corpster> accoutns = btc address?
172 2014-01-22 02:16:25 <xdv> I'm building a cryptocurrency exchange with an api (that doesn't suck like Cryptsy)
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175 2014-01-22 02:18:04 <brisque> corpster: "accounts" are a function of bitcoind
176 2014-01-22 02:18:29 <EasyAt> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Accounts_explained
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179 2014-01-22 02:21:46 <corpster> yeah i was at accounts explained..
180 2014-01-22 02:22:04 <corpster> i was just confirming that 1 wallet can have multiple accounts
181 2014-01-22 02:22:07 <xdv> the accounts link is really helpful for me, too, so thanks EasyAt :)
182 2014-01-22 02:22:10 <corpster> an accoutn is really just a btc wallet
183 2014-01-22 02:22:26 <EasyAt> Each account is associated with zero or more receiving addresses, and every receiving address is associated with exactly one account.
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185 2014-01-22 02:23:01 <corpster> so a wallet has multiple accounts and accounts have mulitple address's?
186 2014-01-22 02:23:15 <EasyAt> *can* have multiple addresses
187 2014-01-22 02:23:41 <xdv> keep an eye out for coinpal.io, guys. thanks for the tips, EasyAt!
188 2014-01-22 02:24:20 <corpster> can u create an account in bitcoin-qt?
189 2014-01-22 02:24:30 <EasyAt> Keep in mind that keypools refill. If you are hostin gthe same wallet on different nodes they may each generate new key pools. Be aware
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197 2014-01-22 02:36:55 <corpster> is it possible to create an account with bitcoin-qt?
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202 2014-01-22 02:42:03 <EasyAt> corpster: Google is your friend. https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/10721/accounts-in-bitcoin-qt
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211 2014-01-22 02:45:37 <corpster> thanks easyat
212 2014-01-22 02:45:41 <corpster> ur right :(
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229 2014-01-22 03:11:53 <corpster> ok i got my answer thanks ;)
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231 2014-01-22 03:12:03 <corpster> i really need a way to create multiple wallets ho
232 2014-01-22 03:12:04 <corpster> tho*
233 2014-01-22 03:12:30 <brisque> you're going to be rolling your own solution. relying on bitcoind in a high load environment probably isn't wise.
234 2014-01-22 03:12:45 <corpster> yeah thats the answer i thought i'd get
235 2014-01-22 03:13:40 <corpster> i dont know c++ :(
236 2014-01-22 03:13:59 <corpster> but i guess you have to learn sometime
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240 2014-01-22 03:14:23 <corpster> would you use bitcoind source as a template?
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244 2014-01-22 03:15:56 <EasyAt> corpster: Read through the relevant portions of bitcoind source with regards to the funcionality you want to roll
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246 2014-01-22 03:19:11 <EasyAt> corpster: There is a client written in java that might be a bit more easy to read
247 2014-01-22 03:19:20 <corpster> oh it certainly will be
248 2014-01-22 03:19:25 <corpster> wahts that called?
249 2014-01-22 03:19:39 <corpster> im a (novice) C# programmer
250 2014-01-22 03:19:42 <EasyAt> bitcoinj I think
251 2014-01-22 03:19:43 <corpster> so that should be easy
252 2014-01-22 03:19:48 <corpster> excellent thanks alot
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263 2014-01-22 03:32:20 <corpster> bitcoinj is exactly what i was lookign for
264 2014-01-22 03:32:22 <corpster> thanks very much
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269 2014-01-22 03:36:07 <EasyAt> No problem. Good luck
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414 2014-01-22 07:30:18 <CryptDrift> Lets say I have an addressx published on my website, and five users pay using that, now if I have to give refunds to 2 of them, how can I do it?
415 2014-01-22 07:31:43 <brisque> you need to ask the users for a new address to send back to.
416 2014-01-22 07:31:56 <brisque> you can't send the funds back to the address they "came from", as the user likely doesn't own them.
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418 2014-01-22 07:33:21 <SomeoneWeird> CryptDrift, you can't if you have no way of contacting the 2 users
419 2014-01-22 07:34:14 <CryptDrift> Okaay. So I should collect their addresses during the collection of funds itself?
420 2014-01-22 07:34:25 <CryptDrift> I wish this is like email with a from address :D
421 2014-01-22 07:34:29 <SomeoneWeird> yes, ask for a refund address
422 2014-01-22 07:34:30 <Belxjander> CryptDrift: that is where you would give an individual address for each and every purchase individually
423 2014-01-22 07:34:39 <SomeoneWeird> yes, absolutely
424 2014-01-22 07:34:45 <SomeoneWeird> you have a bigger problem
425 2014-01-22 07:35:02 <SomeoneWeird> how do you know which users have paid and which havn't?
426 2014-01-22 07:35:42 <CryptDrift> If there was a from address kind of thing in bitcoin itself, I don't need to bother with that right?
427 2014-01-22 07:36:29 <CryptDrift> all inputs to one address and sent to the seller and the user owns the transaction address
428 2014-01-22 07:36:51 <SomeoneWeird> uh, no
429 2014-01-22 07:37:07 <SomeoneWeird> and yes, but there isn't a from address
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431 2014-01-22 07:37:21 <CryptDrift> currently the application provider has to take care of the unique address for every user right?
432 2014-01-22 07:37:29 <brisque> yep
433 2014-01-22 07:37:30 <SomeoneWeird> yes
434 2014-01-22 07:38:34 <CryptDrift> If something like this is available in core protocol I can avoid all the application setup and just go with a static site :-/
435 2014-01-22 07:38:46 hydrogenesis has quit (Quit: hydrogenesis)
436 2014-01-22 07:38:55 <CryptDrift> which avoids lot of dependencies thus lot more secure
437 2014-01-22 07:39:20 Cryo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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439 2014-01-22 07:40:42 <brisque> ;;bc,wiki payment protocol
440 2014-01-22 07:40:43 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0070 | Dec 6, 2013 ... BIP: 70 Title: Payment Protocol Author: Gavin Andresen <[email protected]> Status: Draft Type: Standards Track Created: 29-07-2013Â ...
441 2014-01-22 07:44:08 <wumpus> CryptDrift: see the recent discussion on the mailing list about 'stealth' addresses, they could help there. Users generate an unique address to send to using the 'stealth' address that you publish and a randomly generated nonce, then send you the nonce, so you can generate the address to and claim the funds
442 2014-01-22 07:44:51 <CryptDrift> wumpus, thanks will look into it
443 2014-01-22 07:46:02 <wumpus> eh s/so you can generate the address/so you can generate the private key/ ... claiming funds with an address is impossible :-)
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491 2014-01-22 08:44:21 <SargoDarya> Hey guys, short question. Wouldn't it theoretically be possible to download the blockchain of all alt currencies with one client? I mean the only difference are the nodes right?
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493 2014-01-22 08:45:05 <brisque> theoretically possible for most of them, but it would take a lot of work nobody is interested in doing.
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495 2014-01-22 08:46:36 <wumpus> there is no theoretical barrier to that at all
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497 2014-01-22 08:47:01 <wumpus> everything can be done in one client, even mowing the lawn and controlling the kitchen sink
498 2014-01-22 08:47:47 <brisque> well, it would take more work if you wanted to accommodate primecoin and all the others that have messed with the the POW algorithm more than just changing it to scrypt.
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500 2014-01-22 08:49:28 <wumpus> you'd also need a huge amount of resources to receive, validate and store all the chains, but again, that's a practical problem not a theoretical one
501 2014-01-22 08:49:36 <SargoDarya> Hm... I ask because I want to do a flexible thin client without having to run each cryptocurrencies client.
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503 2014-01-22 08:50:05 <brisque> most altcoins are forked before SPV client support was added to bitcoind.
504 2014-01-22 08:50:42 <wumpus> a thin client.. why are you asking about downloading the blockchain then, you'd be better off forking a client that doesn't store the blockchain such as multibit
505 2014-01-22 08:50:55 <gmaxwell> brisque: uhhh. SPV support was in bitcoin 0.1
506 2014-01-22 08:51:19 <brisque> gmaxwell: aren't bloom filters an 0.8 feature?
507 2014-01-22 08:51:20 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I think he means the bloom stuff to help SPV clients, that was added alter
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509 2014-01-22 08:51:41 <gmaxwell> brisque: ah, you don't need to have bloom filters to run an spv client however. (thats a 0.8 feature)
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511 2014-01-22 08:51:56 <gmaxwell> especially when the currency has ~no transactions like most alts. :P
512 2014-01-22 08:52:06 <SargoDarya> wumpus: because the thin clients need to connect to a node which handles all the stuff
513 2014-01-22 08:52:08 <wumpus> HAH
514 2014-01-22 08:52:18 <gmaxwell> a bigger issue is that some of the alts have throughly broken the possiblity of having a spv client.
515 2014-01-22 08:52:21 <brisque> gmaxwell: might be a bit hard to do a thin client with 5 second block times.
516 2014-01-22 08:52:24 <wumpus> SargoDarya: not really, they can connect to a different noe for every network
517 2014-01-22 08:52:41 <gmaxwell> brisque: yea thats one way they break spv, though not the worst.
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519 2014-01-22 08:53:28 <SargoDarya> Ok, different question then. What would be the best approach to do a thin client for "most" cryptos?
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522 2014-01-22 08:54:02 <brisque> gmaxwell: what other modifications break them? most altcoins seem to just mess with a few variables like block times and values, I can't see how they'd break SPV other than making a stupid amount of blocks to process
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524 2014-01-22 08:55:02 <gmaxwell> brisque: e.g. both primecoin (ginormous multikilobit primes in the headers) and peercoin (can validate blocks without a nearly complete unpruned transaction index) break spv pretty badly.
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526 2014-01-22 08:55:21 <wumpus> SargoDarya: easiest plan I think: fork electrum server for all cryptos that you want to support, run a server park with different kinds of crypto servers, than make a client that can connect to them all and keep the wallets...
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528 2014-01-22 08:56:35 <brisque> gmaxwell: oh I was thinking mainly of scamcoins, which is what people seem to want to make multiple wallets for. having a thousand untrusted binaries on their computers isn't enough, they need one more
529 2014-01-22 08:56:41 <SargoDarya> Thought about that already and tried to read about that stratum protocol.
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579 2014-01-22 09:45:16 <ThomasZ> Hi, in the client, I can change the language, but how do I change the way that the dates are displayed?
580 2014-01-22 09:45:40 <ThomasZ> They always show in the emperial format, which makes me confused every time.
581 2014-01-22 09:45:59 <wumpus> ThomasZ: not sure how qt determines that
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583 2014-01-22 09:46:27 <kinlo> isn't that the standard locale system of the os?
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585 2014-01-22 09:46:48 <wumpus> kinlo, yes, but that's less clearly-defined than what you'd like
586 2014-01-22 09:47:12 <kinlo> yeah os'es and implementators screw it up all the time
587 2014-01-22 09:47:47 <wumpus> for example on Linux there's a whole slew of environment variables for it: http://gerardnico.com/wiki/linux/locale ... but then it's up to qt to interpret them
588 2014-01-22 09:47:47 <kinlo> unless you're native english speaking living in america, you will always experience how wrong people can get it :)
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592 2014-01-22 09:48:17 <ThomasZ> hmm, so I'm running bitcoind, the Qt app, on my KDE desktop and all those look just fine.
593 2014-01-22 09:48:27 <ThomasZ> botcoin, not bitcoind
594 2014-01-22 09:48:32 <ThomasZ> ugh..
595 2014-01-22 09:48:57 <ThomasZ> does it look Ok to any of you?
596 2014-01-22 09:49:09 <ThomasZ> where "OK" means, not the weird USA format ;)
597 2014-01-22 09:49:17 <wumpus> nope, but I've adapted to the USA format a long time ago
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599 2014-01-22 09:49:44 <wumpus> so used to seeing it everywhere, for better or worse :/
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601 2014-01-22 09:50:31 <sipa> dates in bitcoind look very normal to me, just unix timestamps :)
602 2014-01-22 09:50:33 <ThomasZ> hmm, I guess I've been lucky so far. I never see it, this app is the first. And since I like Qt, I was really surprised that it was wrong in bitcoin, since it works properly in the toolkit.
603 2014-01-22 09:50:40 <wumpus> sipa: yes yes yes :)
604 2014-01-22 09:51:08 <wumpus> let's change the universal date format to megaseconds sinds the epoch
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606 2014-01-22 09:52:03 <wumpus> ThomasZ: so you're saying it is wrong in bitcoin but not other qt apps?!
607 2014-01-22 09:52:15 <ThomasZ> wumpus: thats right.
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610 2014-01-22 09:53:45 <wumpus> we don't override the system locale at all, see initTranslations in bitcoin.cpp, the only thing that's customized is the language of the translators that are loaded
611 2014-01-22 09:54:11 <wumpus> so the rest should still be according to the system locale, however Qt sees it
612 2014-01-22 09:54:43 <wumpus> or maybe not and we do something stupid while formatting dates
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616 2014-01-22 09:55:34 <wumpus> see dateTimeStr in guiutil.cpp (which uses date.date().toString(Qt::SystemLocaleShortDate) so it should be proper...)
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618 2014-01-22 09:58:12 <ThomasZ> look ok, indeed.
619 2014-01-22 09:58:17 * ThomasZ scratches head
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622 2014-01-22 10:04:15 <ThomasZ> writing a 2 liner main.cpp and compiling it I can fix it using; export LANG=no_NO The date looks good.
623 2014-01-22 10:04:33 <ThomasZ> But if I start bitcoin with that export, it gives me an error...
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626 2014-01-22 10:05:59 <ThomasZ> does this mean anything to anyone? terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::runtime_error' what(): locale::facet::_S_create_c_locale name not valid
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631 2014-01-22 10:08:26 <sturles> LANG=no_NO is not a valid locale. Try nn_NO or nb_NO.
632 2014-01-22 10:08:39 <sturles> Not a valid language, anyway.
633 2014-01-22 10:09:57 <ThomasZ> ah, also missing utf8. export LANG=nn_NO.UTF-8
634 2014-01-22 10:10:12 <ThomasZ> interesting that KDE seems to not use this then...
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705 2014-01-22 11:26:37 <JackH> hey I am having problems downloading block in Bitcoin-qt on Ubuntu
706 2014-01-22 11:26:56 <JackH> I am getting the following error: sni-qt/3542" WARN 11:15:11.447 void StatusNotifierItemFactory::connectToSnw() Invalid interface to SNW_SERVICE
707 2014-01-22 11:27:06 <JackH> anyone knows what this error relates to? I cant seem to find any info about it
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709 2014-01-22 11:28:39 <wumpus> where do you get that error?
710 2014-01-22 11:29:14 <JackH> when I run bitcoin-qt in terminal
711 2014-01-22 11:29:39 <wumpus> and then it quits?
712 2014-01-22 11:29:57 <JackH> it never starts
713 2014-01-22 11:30:10 <JackH> I also get this error after: No systemtrayicon available
714 2014-01-22 11:30:16 <JackH> as last line of error output
715 2014-01-22 11:30:20 <wumpus> what version of ubuntu?
716 2014-01-22 11:30:28 <JackH> 12.04
717 2014-01-22 11:30:37 <JackH> pretty much fresh install
718 2014-01-22 11:30:49 <wumpus> did you build bitcoin from source or use the binary?
719 2014-01-22 11:31:00 <JackH> use the binary
720 2014-01-22 11:31:09 <wumpus> it looks like a version conflict of some kind
721 2014-01-22 11:31:34 <JackH> I downloaded 0.8.6
722 2014-01-22 11:31:39 <wumpus> can you try apt-get install sni-qt ?
723 2014-01-22 11:31:49 <JackH> sni?
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725 2014-01-22 11:32:03 <JackH> whats that
726 2014-01-22 11:32:04 <wumpus> and at least do a apt-get update / apt-get upgrade run, to make sure everything is at the latest version
727 2014-01-22 11:32:11 <wumpus> https://launchpad.net/sni-qt
728 2014-01-22 11:32:12 <JackH> ah yes
729 2014-01-22 11:32:13 <JackH> good idea
730 2014-01-22 11:32:31 <wumpus> seemingly it is already installed on your system but I suspect it's a useless old version
731 2014-01-22 11:32:56 <JackH> does it matter if I dont run the unity gui?
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733 2014-01-22 11:33:00 <wumpus> alternatively, you can also uninstall it, that may fix the problem
734 2014-01-22 11:33:17 <wumpus> yes that matters
735 2014-01-22 11:33:19 hydrogenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
736 2014-01-22 11:33:32 <wumpus> sni-qt is a bridge between qt and the appindicator thing which is used by unity
737 2014-01-22 11:33:33 JackH has quit (Quit: JackH)
738 2014-01-22 11:33:46 <wumpus> so try removing it
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740 2014-01-22 11:36:03 <wumpus> bitcoin-qt doesn't like not being able to create a tray icon, and seemingly your sni-qt blocks this by getting in the way (and trying to interface with your desktop env in some incompatible way)
741 2014-01-22 11:37:41 <wumpus> alternatively you could patch bitcoin-qt to work without tray icon, should be trivial (we do that on macosx already, but on mac the notifications don't happen through a tray icon...)
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810 2014-01-22 13:40:59 <Denim-jdev> Typically C has been the programming language for crypto historically
811 2014-01-22 13:41:27 <Denim-jdev> Anyone think a new language will be the norm in the future? (which?)
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873 2014-01-22 15:00:10 <coke0> hello all, is there any resource presenting the layout of the bitcoin code?
874 2014-01-22 15:00:19 <coke0> I'm reasonably familiar with the pitiful
875 2014-01-22 15:00:42 <coke0> with the protocol itself (sorry autocorrect) but not with the code base
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883 2014-01-22 15:07:50 <Emcy> haha
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904 2014-01-22 15:43:23 <coke0> yikes, that code is not heavy on comments
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907 2014-01-22 15:46:26 <coke0> how does checkTransaction check that an input has the required balance? is there an in memory cache of all balances for all addresses appearing in the blockchain? which object would that be?
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922 2014-01-22 15:56:18 <helo> coke0: yes, there is the UTXO (unspent transaction output) set
923 2014-01-22 15:59:05 <coke0> helo: what type is that?
924 2014-01-22 15:59:25 <coke0> I don't see a CUTXO
925 2014-01-22 16:00:02 <coke0> in fact this name only appears in comments
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927 2014-01-22 16:01:47 <coke0> CCoinsView perhaps?
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930 2014-01-22 16:05:35 <sipa> pcoinsTip specifically even
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935 2014-01-22 16:08:34 <sipa> coke0: CCoinsView is simply a set of unspent outputs indexed by txid
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939 2014-01-22 16:09:19 <sipa> pcoinsTip is the specific instance that represents the UTXO set at the current block
940 2014-01-22 16:11:29 <coke0> no such word in the source code...
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942 2014-01-22 16:11:47 <coke0> ah wait there it is
943 2014-01-22 16:12:34 <coke0> right but pcoinsTip is a CCoinsViewCache which implements CCoinsView
944 2014-01-22 16:13:11 <sipa> yes
945 2014-01-22 16:13:14 <helo> right... pcoinsTip is the instance
946 2014-01-22 16:13:16 <coke0> I'm not sure I understand, why is it indexed by transaction
947 2014-01-22 16:13:26 <sipa> because that is hiw the system works
948 2014-01-22 16:13:27 <coke0> and not by address?
949 2014-01-22 16:13:45 <sipa> transactions refer to previous outputs by the txid that created them
950 2014-01-22 16:13:53 <sipa> addresses don't even exist at the protocol level
951 2014-01-22 16:14:01 <coke0> ahh
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953 2014-01-22 16:14:31 <coke0> so it's the coinbase transaction that tracks the coin
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956 2014-01-22 16:14:46 <coke0> well, identifies
957 2014-01-22 16:14:51 <sipa> no
958 2014-01-22 16:15:09 <sipa> ;;google bitcoin change
959 2014-01-22 16:15:10 <gribble> Change - Bitcoin: <http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change>; Bitcoin Exchange Rate â Bitcoin Live Converter â Preev: <http://preev.com/>; MtGox.com loading: <http://mtgox.com/>
960 2014-01-22 16:15:15 <sipa> read that first link
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963 2014-01-22 16:16:32 <sipa> coke0: in particular, "balance of an address" is not relevant either
964 2014-01-22 16:16:55 <sipa> transactions consume outputs of previous transactions, entirely
965 2014-01-22 16:16:58 <coke0> ok, I think I get it, there are just dangling ends of chained transactions
966 2014-01-22 16:17:08 <sipa> and create new outputs from them
967 2014-01-22 16:17:19 <sipa> the only rule is that the value of thenoutputs is not more than the inputs
968 2014-01-22 16:17:25 <sipa> *than
969 2014-01-22 16:17:35 <coke0> you do need to specify a destination address though
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972 2014-01-22 16:18:24 <sipa> yes
973 2014-01-22 16:18:35 <sipa> but that's really just the authentication layer on top
974 2014-01-22 16:18:39 <coke0> right
975 2014-01-22 16:18:43 <sipa> making some transactions allowed or not
976 2014-01-22 16:18:49 john5223 has joined
977 2014-01-22 16:18:55 <sipa> it doesn't influence the structure of the interactions
978 2014-01-22 16:19:01 <coke0> that's what allows you to use that unspent transaction as input
979 2014-01-22 16:19:05 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
980 2014-01-22 16:19:13 <sipa> also, outputs really specify a script
981 2014-01-22 16:19:18 mattco has joined
982 2014-01-22 16:19:26 <sipa> an address is just a short notation for some very common scripts
983 2014-01-22 16:19:58 <coke0> mhm
984 2014-01-22 16:20:33 sacrelege has quit (Quit: Leaving)
985 2014-01-22 16:20:48 <coke0> so script is run to determine if an unspent transaction is a valid input to a transaction
986 2014-01-22 16:20:53 <sipa> correct
987 2014-01-22 16:20:59 <sipa> the output specifies the script
988 2014-01-22 16:21:08 exfor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
989 2014-01-22 16:21:16 <sipa> the input spending it provides the inputs to that script, whivh should make it evaluate to true
990 2014-01-22 16:22:01 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
991 2014-01-22 16:22:11 giustoXricordarv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
992 2014-01-22 16:22:13 <coke0> is all that logic in main.cpp?
993 2014-01-22 16:22:19 shhh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
994 2014-01-22 16:22:24 <sipa> scripts are in script.cpp
995 2014-01-22 16:22:45 <sipa> core data structures are in core
996 2014-01-22 16:22:53 <sipa> most validation logic is in main
997 2014-01-22 16:23:03 <coke0> gotcha
998 2014-01-22 16:23:05 giustoXricordarv has joined
999 2014-01-22 16:23:09 <sipa> interactions with the utxo database is in txdb
1000 2014-01-22 16:23:27 <sipa> the mempool is in mempool :)
1001 2014-01-22 16:23:30 <coke0> is it fully loaded in memory?
1002 2014-01-22 16:23:36 <sipa> no, just cached
1003 2014-01-22 16:23:38 <coke0> the utxo
1004 2014-01-22 16:23:43 <sipa> recently used parts of it
1005 2014-01-22 16:23:57 <coke0> ok
1006 2014-01-22 16:24:11 <coke0> the rest in a db?
1007 2014-01-22 16:24:25 BCBot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1008 2014-01-22 16:24:45 <sipa> yes, leveldb database
1009 2014-01-22 16:25:34 <sipa> leveldb/ -> leveldbwrapper.cpp -> txdb.cpp -> coins.cpp -> main.cpp
1010 2014-01-22 16:25:40 <sipa> is sort of how it's layered
1011 2014-01-22 16:26:43 <coke0> in general, how modular is the code? say for instance I try to change the nonce size to 128 bits. Does all hell break lose if I only change that in CBlock?
1012 2014-01-22 16:27:21 <coke0> network code failing, serialization failing, db failing etc.
1013 2014-01-22 16:27:32 rdymac has joined
1014 2014-01-22 16:27:47 <sipa> it may just work
1015 2014-01-22 16:27:57 <sipa> there will be related variables you need to change
1016 2014-01-22 16:28:00 <sipa> like maximum target
1017 2014-01-22 16:28:12 <sipa> in general, the code is not very modular yet
1018 2014-01-22 16:28:22 <sipa> there's (slow) change to improve that
1019 2014-01-22 16:28:28 exfor has joined
1020 2014-01-22 16:28:33 <sipa> but if you see where we started... wallet was part of main
1021 2014-01-22 16:28:45 <sipa> with direct calls into the gui...
1022 2014-01-22 16:29:25 Guest76823 has joined
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1024 2014-01-22 16:30:51 <coke0> yikes
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1027 2014-01-22 16:33:55 <coke0> humm why would maximum target need to change if I changed the nonce?
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1030 2014-01-22 16:35:10 <sipa> oh, nonce
1031 2014-01-22 16:35:17 <sipa> that should just work
1032 2014-01-22 16:35:23 <sipa> the mining code may need to change
1033 2014-01-22 16:35:26 <coke0> pfew :)
1034 2014-01-22 16:35:30 <coke0> yes
1035 2014-01-22 16:35:53 <sipa> i though you meant the block hash
1036 2014-01-22 16:35:59 <coke0> I don't particularly want to do that, just an example of a trivial modification
1037 2014-01-22 16:36:07 <sipa> sure
1038 2014-01-22 16:37:05 <coke0> probably would have to change serialization though, I doubt it's introspective
1039 2014-01-22 16:38:34 FabianB_ has joined
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1041 2014-01-22 16:38:52 <coke0> ah the READ_WRITE macros help
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1043 2014-01-22 16:39:55 <sipa> coke0: the data type you use for tge nonce should have a serialization defined already
1044 2014-01-22 16:40:27 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1045 2014-01-22 16:40:48 <coke0> ok
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1049 2014-01-22 16:42:21 <coke0> how fast is it typically to build the txout set from all the blocks?
1050 2014-01-22 16:42:44 <coke0> say, on your average desktop computer
1051 2014-01-22 16:42:48 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1052 2014-01-22 16:43:55 <sipa> well you never just build the utxo set
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1054 2014-01-22 16:44:04 <sipa> you validate the transactions along the way
1055 2014-01-22 16:44:20 <sipa> and flush the cache to disk from time to time
1056 2014-01-22 16:44:24 <coke0> right
1057 2014-01-22 16:44:29 Subo1977_ has joined
1058 2014-01-22 16:44:44 <sipa> often, you're even downloading the blocks at the same time
1059 2014-01-22 16:45:04 <coke0> what if you just lost the txout set? you have all the blocks already downloaded
1060 2014-01-22 16:45:15 <coke0> but you need to revalidate the entire chain
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1062 2014-01-22 16:45:58 <sipa> right now, that's not possible
1063 2014-01-22 16:46:08 <coke0> I promise there is a motivation to all this :)
1064 2014-01-22 16:46:25 <sipa> there's very little to gain in practice
1065 2014-01-22 16:46:43 <sipa> almost all time is spent in building the utxo set
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1069 2014-01-22 16:47:05 <sipa> but it could easily be added, skipping some checks if a block is already marked valid
1070 2014-01-22 16:47:13 <coke0> downloading the blockchain isn't the bottleneck?
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1072 2014-01-22 16:47:27 <sipa> yes, with the current crappy download mechanism is is
1073 2014-01-22 16:47:42 <sipa> but if you already have the blocks, that's not a provlem
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1075 2014-01-22 16:48:05 <coke0> the motivation is completely separating the validation function from the rest of the code
1076 2014-01-22 16:48:28 <coke0> the validation function is what defines bitcoin, the rest is a convenient way to use bitcoin
1077 2014-01-22 16:49:01 <sipa> that's a very worthwhile goal
1078 2014-01-22 16:49:08 <sipa> but in practice it is much harder
1079 2014-01-22 16:49:26 <sipa> as validation is not a single operation
1080 2014-01-22 16:49:36 <coke0> however one may want this function to be generic enough not to make the assumption that an external cache of utxo exists
1081 2014-01-22 16:49:40 <sipa> you do it in stages
1082 2014-01-22 16:49:49 <sipa> as information about blocks and transactions arrives
1083 2014-01-22 16:49:57 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1084 2014-01-22 16:50:15 <sipa> and you absolutely need fast access to the utxo set
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1086 2014-01-22 16:50:34 <sipa> you can implement another CCoinsView i guess
1087 2014-01-22 16:50:43 <coke0> yes, but that restricts the class of validation functions ;(
1088 2014-01-22 16:51:12 <sipa> how would you do it otherwise?
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1091 2014-01-22 16:52:13 <coke0> have a function that takes two parameters
1092 2014-01-22 16:52:31 <sipa> elaborate
1093 2014-01-22 16:52:46 <coke0> the hash of a block, and a function that retrieves a block with a given hash (if one is known)
1094 2014-01-22 16:53:15 <coke0> it calls itself recursively until reaching the Genesis block
1095 2014-01-22 16:53:30 <sipa> die :)
1096 2014-01-22 16:53:37 <coke0> and then returns a score
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1098 2014-01-22 16:53:44 <sipa> you assume: all blocks are available all the timr
1099 2014-01-22 16:53:59 <coke0> (~difficultylength of chain)
1100 2014-01-22 16:54:12 <coke0> well, there is a cache of blocks
1101 2014-01-22 16:54:32 <sipa> there's no point why you would want to access any block more than once
1102 2014-01-22 16:54:32 <coke0> there is an upside to that
1103 2014-01-22 16:54:57 <sipa> the whole state of what you need to know about previous blocks is exactly the utxo set
1104 2014-01-22 16:54:57 <coke0> you can implement this in bytecode
1105 2014-01-22 16:55:10 <coke0> with the bitcoin protocol yes
1106 2014-01-22 16:55:27 <sipa> it has nothing to do with the protocol
1107 2014-01-22 16:55:35 <sipa> it's an implementation detail
1108 2014-01-22 16:55:48 <sipa> but i'm very convinced it's the right one :)
1109 2014-01-22 16:56:04 <sipa> (disclaimer: i wrote it)
1110 2014-01-22 16:56:11 <coke0> it's an implementation that works because of certain properties of the bitcoin portico
1111 2014-01-22 16:56:14 <coke0> protocol
1112 2014-01-22 16:56:26 <sipa> sure
1113 2014-01-22 16:56:50 <sipa> it's an implementation specifically designed for bitcoin
1114 2014-01-22 16:57:02 <coke0> I'm claiming that if you let the chain validation function be a free parameter
1115 2014-01-22 16:57:16 <sipa> but it's necessary for performamce
1116 2014-01-22 16:57:21 <coke0> you can had a self modification protocol
1117 2014-01-22 16:57:44 <sipa> oh dear :)
1118 2014-01-22 16:57:48 <coke0> that bites its tail
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1120 2014-01-22 16:58:13 <coke0> the motivation is solving the hard-forking issue
1121 2014-01-22 16:58:24 <sipa> how would you solve it?
1122 2014-01-22 16:58:40 <coke0> you decide on patches by a proof of stake vote
1123 2014-01-22 16:58:57 <sipa> hell no
1124 2014-01-22 16:59:12 <EasyAt> heh
1125 2014-01-22 16:59:38 <coke0> why not?
1126 2014-01-22 16:59:50 <sipa> bitcoin was designed not to need changes to the rules, because they need to be things *everyone* (not just a majority) agrees on
1127 2014-01-22 17:00:00 <sipa> people agreed on them by starting to use thebsysyem
1128 2014-01-22 17:00:17 <sipa> now, in practice very occassionally it may be necessary to change things
1129 2014-01-22 17:00:34 <coke0> yes, but it prevents it from adopting perhaps lifesaving tech
1130 2014-01-22 17:00:37 <sipa> but imho the only viable way to dothat is exactly if it is so uncontroversial that everyone agrees on it
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1132 2014-01-22 17:01:23 <sipa> i do not want a majority of the system to change the mining payout schedule
1133 2014-01-22 17:01:24 <coke0> what if getting rid of the proof of work system is absolutely necessary? miners will have a vested interest in opposing the move
1134 2014-01-22 17:01:29 CheckDavid has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1135 2014-01-22 17:01:52 <coke0> I didn't say majority, you could make it a 90% threshold
1136 2014-01-22 17:02:08 <sipa> what if 12% of coins happen to be lost already?
1137 2014-01-22 17:02:23 <coke0> 90% of yes with a 50% quorum
1138 2014-01-22 17:02:24 Grouver has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1140 2014-01-22 17:02:39 <sipa> you don't know how many are lost
1141 2014-01-22 17:03:00 <Michail1> ;;premium mtgox bits
1142 2014-01-22 17:03:02 <gribble> Premium of MtGox over Bitstamp is currently 16.6063381842 %.
1143 2014-01-22 17:03:04 <coke0> you can change the thresholds using the procedure. but yes you can get stuck
1144 2014-01-22 17:03:17 <Michail1> oops. sorry
1145 2014-01-22 17:03:19 <coke0> in which case you need to hatdfork
1146 2014-01-22 17:03:23 <sipa> i don't want *anyone* to be able to change the basic rules
1147 2014-01-22 17:03:30 <sipa> i want it to be *hard*
1148 2014-01-22 17:03:58 <coke0> there's a tradeoff
1149 2014-01-22 17:04:29 <sipa> in addition, performance problems for such bytecode solution
1150 2014-01-22 17:04:59 <sipa> blocks need to propagate within ~seconds across the globe
1151 2014-01-22 17:05:04 <coke0> what if you end up in a world where there is very little demand for transactions because payment processors internalize it.
1152 2014-01-22 17:05:36 <coke0> that would mean very little mining and a very fragile system
1153 2014-01-22 17:05:41 <sipa> yes
1154 2014-01-22 17:05:59 <coke0> do you see a way out of that problem?
1155 2014-01-22 17:06:11 <sipa> i would find it very sad
1156 2014-01-22 17:06:28 <coke0> it would be very sad
1157 2014-01-22 17:06:29 <sipa> but if that is how people happen to end up using it, that's what they want
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1159 2014-01-22 17:06:59 <sipa> i don't think a technical solution can fix that
1160 2014-01-22 17:07:05 <sipa> it's how people usenit
1161 2014-01-22 17:07:19 <coke0> it's not about technology
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1163 2014-01-22 17:07:28 <sipa> so don't solve it with technology
1164 2014-01-22 17:07:34 <coke0> I'm not
1165 2014-01-22 17:07:46 <coke0> I'm solving it with economics
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1167 2014-01-22 17:08:25 <coke0> the proof of work system is at heart economic, not technologic
1168 2014-01-22 17:09:37 <coke0> so are all the alternatives, be they ripple's trusted lists, proof of stake systems, memory hard proof of work systems
1169 2014-01-22 17:10:10 <coke0> they are all attempt to model economic and social behavior to achieve consensus
1170 2014-01-22 17:10:35 <jcorgan> model?
1171 2014-01-22 17:10:46 <coke0> yes
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1173 2014-01-22 17:11:26 <coke0> what makes bitcoin work is a complex set of incentives
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1175 2014-01-22 17:12:12 <coke0> I'm afraid these incentives may price
1176 2014-01-22 17:12:17 <jcorgan> agree. there are many different actors in the bitcoin economy and the incentives layed out by the bitcoin protocol are almost supernaturally well designed to allow cooperation to mutual benefit
1177 2014-01-22 17:12:30 <coke0> for now yes
1178 2014-01-22 17:13:18 <jcorgan> and at a meta-level, to make it hard to change those incentives
1179 2014-01-22 17:13:18 <coke0> but I think it's missing a key competent, there is no feedback between the value of the currency and the mining incentive in the long run
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1181 2014-01-22 17:13:50 <coke0> it should be hard, but I'd argue that at this point it's become too hard
1182 2014-01-22 17:13:51 <gavinandresen> if payment processors internalize transactions, then they have an incentive to secure the transactions that DO occur on the network.
1183 2014-01-22 17:14:20 <coke0> individually yes, collectively not necessarily
1184 2014-01-22 17:14:28 <gavinandresen> Easiest way for them to do that would be to pay bigger-than-they-have-to transaction fees.
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1186 2014-01-22 17:14:45 <coke0> you still have a collective action problem
1187 2014-01-22 17:14:45 <gavinandresen> ⦠or mine themselves
1188 2014-01-22 17:15:10 <gavinandresen> Mike Hearn has written about solving collective action problems using the blockchain, it can be done.
1189 2014-01-22 17:15:27 <coke0> I'll look at that
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1192 2014-01-22 17:17:51 <coke0> but, though the blockchain may help express commitment and contacts, you're still stuck with the same incentive problems. Yes, institutions can self organize, shum
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1196 2014-01-22 17:18:09 <coke0> shun free riders etc, but that's a wea
1197 2014-01-22 17:18:16 <coke0> k guarantee
1198 2014-01-22 17:18:56 <coke0> anyway sorry for getting off-topic, and thanks a ton sipa for the help on navigating the code
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1203 2014-01-22 17:20:33 <jcorgan> coke0: discussions about the incentive structure of the bitcoin protocol would be a welcome topic in #bitcoin
1204 2014-01-22 17:21:45 <coke0> ah thanks but I think it's more productive for me to build a proof of concept of an i
1205 2014-01-22 17:21:57 <coke0> introspective protocol
1206 2014-01-22 17:22:40 <gavinandresen> coke0 : if you need more transaction security, then it is easy to pay for it. I don't see a collective action problem. But jcorgan is right, that's really off-topic for bitcoin-dev.
1207 2014-01-22 17:23:05 <coke0> hey I said it was off-tipi
1208 2014-01-22 17:23:15 <coke0> off-topic first :p
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1212 2014-01-22 17:27:02 <coke0> /msg gavinandresen
1213 2014-01-22 17:27:06 <coke0> bummer
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1250 2014-01-22 18:30:12 <gavinandresen> Unit tests are failing for me: Assertion failed: (0), function AssertLockHeldInternal, file sync.cpp, line 144.
1251 2014-01-22 18:30:21 <gavinandresen> (git HEAD) -- failing for anybody else?
1252 2014-01-22 18:30:43 <gavinandresen> Wait⦠it is because I compile with -DDEBUG_LOCKORDER ....
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1276 2014-01-22 18:46:39 <ToTheGroundGuy> GUYS
1277 2014-01-22 18:46:52 <ToTheGroundGuy> I came up with an amazing POS idea based around the refund address concept!
1278 2014-01-22 18:46:57 askmike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1279 2014-01-22 18:47:14 <ToTheGroundGuy> I just had to come on IRC and share it, in case anyone hadn't thought of it yet.
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1282 2014-01-22 18:48:03 <ToTheGroundGuy> Part of this scenario is easy to disagree with, as none of it sounds secure, but this concept is about ease of use, and not security so much.
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1287 2014-01-22 18:50:37 <ToTheGroundGuy> So imagine Person A has a flash drive with his wallet.dat file on it tied to an address (Address A) with a refund address of (Address B) Person A goes into a merchant with this specialized Bitcoin POS system. Person A gets item total rung up by cashie, Person A puts flash drive into receptacle, the amount charged is sent to merchant's address, the remaining balance is automatically sent to (Address B) the refund address.
1288 2014-01-22 18:51:03 <ToTheGroundGuy> So even though the store's POS system literally just handled the whole wallet, once the transaction is over, there is literally no way for them to touch the remaining funds.
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1290 2014-01-22 18:51:25 <ToTheGroundGuy> If this sort of idea could be implemented in a different way, I'm sure it could make for easy, fast, and secure transactions.
1291 2014-01-22 18:51:43 <ToTheGroundGuy> The specialized bitcoin POS system could be a full node
1292 2014-01-22 18:51:54 <ToTheGroundGuy> and verify the wallet.dat info from Person A against the blockchain
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1294 2014-01-22 18:52:06 <ToTheGroundGuy> as to prevent any sort of fraudulent behavior on the part of consumers
1295 2014-01-22 18:52:29 brson has joined
1296 2014-01-22 18:52:30 <ToTheGroundGuy> this would help increase full nodes on the network, and make transaction confirmation almost* unnecessary.
1297 2014-01-22 18:52:58 <ToTheGroundGuy> instantaneous bitcoin payments with more full node propogation
1298 2014-01-22 18:53:09 <ToTheGroundGuy> It's a win-win
1299 2014-01-22 18:53:18 <phantomcircuit> ToTheGroundGuy, refund address?
1300 2014-01-22 18:53:18 <ToTheGroundGuy> aside from carrying a full wallet around with you
1301 2014-01-22 18:53:22 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, everything seems fine here
1302 2014-01-22 18:53:52 <ToTheGroundGuy> I heard the devs were implementing the option of a refund address flag that's tied to addresses? Or is it only tied to transactions?
1303 2014-01-22 18:53:55 <EasyAt> ToTheGroundGuy: Why doesn't the person just provide the vendor with outputs they are able to spend. The vendor prepares a TX. If it looks good to the person their hardware wallet signs it?
1304 2014-01-22 18:53:56 <ToTheGroundGuy> T_T
1305 2014-01-22 18:54:33 <ToTheGroundGuy> Ok EasyAt, I'll entertain that, how practical is it for the everyday idiot to do that?
1306 2014-01-22 18:54:42 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: thanks. I was worried the pull-tester was passing failing unit tests, but it is just me. Although we might want pull-tester to compile -DDEBUG_LOCKORDER in the future
1307 2014-01-22 18:54:57 <EasyAt> Very, it's easy to implement. The person's wallet would handel it
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1309 2014-01-22 18:55:14 <ToTheGroundGuy> requiring a smartphone, tablet, or electronic device?
1310 2014-01-22 18:55:40 <EasyAt> I would probably just keep a spendable output set on my hardware wallet and keep it updated after each TX
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1312 2014-01-22 18:56:04 <ToTheGroundGuy> Then you're trusting merchants with the spendable output every time?
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1314 2014-01-22 18:56:19 <EasyAt> No, they just know what outputs you may spend. They are not holding the keys to sign
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1316 2014-01-22 18:58:35 <EasyAt> Though, I am actually confused on what you are trying to accomplish heh
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1318 2014-01-22 18:59:42 <ToTheGroundGuy> I just wanted to make the idea of spending a few hundred dollars worth of Bitcoin in a day an easy headache free process in a mall for merchants and consumers alike.
1319 2014-01-22 19:00:02 <ToTheGroundGuy> And to not require something like a smartphone, tablet, or laptop.
1320 2014-01-22 19:00:18 <ToTheGroundGuy> I mean with online wallets, the merchants could have terminals, but that's putting extra work on the merchants.
1321 2014-01-22 19:00:40 <ToTheGroundGuy> My idea was just a flash drive with a wallet.dat and special POS systems that would handle them appropriately.
1322 2014-01-22 19:00:47 <ToTheGroundGuy> flash drives are very inexpensive
1323 2014-01-22 19:00:52 <ToTheGroundGuy> practically anyone can have them
1324 2014-01-22 19:01:02 <ToTheGroundGuy> and via receipts, you'd know how much you had left
1325 2014-01-22 19:01:46 <ToTheGroundGuy> My only issue with my solution is that it involves a trust system that simply doesn't exist yet
1326 2014-01-22 19:01:59 <ToTheGroundGuy> And POS systems that are vaporware
1327 2014-01-22 19:02:01 <EasyAt> You're having the merchant take your priv key and sign the outputs from it?
1328 2014-01-22 19:02:31 <ToTheGroundGuy> Pretty much handing the merchant the private key, but once they send the full amount, they no longer have the new private key.
1329 2014-01-22 19:02:46 <ToTheGroundGuy> Only the cost of what you purchase gets sent to the merchant though
1330 2014-01-22 19:02:52 <ToTheGroundGuy> the rest goes to another address of yours
1331 2014-01-22 19:03:26 <ToTheGroundGuy> could be an address on another drive, the same drive, or your computer back home, maybe even your paper wallet
1332 2014-01-22 19:03:28 <ToTheGroundGuy> doesn't really matter
1333 2014-01-22 19:03:32 <shesek> you would have to trust the merchant to actually do this correctly
1334 2014-01-22 19:03:39 <shesek> there's nothing stopping him from taking all the money you have
1335 2014-01-22 19:03:44 <ToTheGroundGuy> ^trust system that doesn't exist
1336 2014-01-22 19:03:46 <ToTheGroundGuy> ;)
1337 2014-01-22 19:03:55 <shesek> and you won't even find out about this until you get to an internet enabled device that can check this
1338 2014-01-22 19:04:16 <ToTheGroundGuy> My idea has flaws, I'll admit that, but with the right solutions it would be a great idea
1339 2014-01-22 19:04:47 <shesek> letting someone else have full access to your private keys, that controls an amount greater than what you should be paying him, is extremely problematic
1340 2014-01-22 19:05:00 <shesek> I don't see any way around this
1341 2014-01-22 19:05:19 <shesek> the only right way to do this is have the consumer sign the transaction himself - he can trust his private keys to someone else that does this
1342 2014-01-22 19:05:30 <ToTheGroundGuy> Scanning your credit card at a gas pump, which has an upper limit higher than what you are paying, surely the gas station could take all of your money.
1343 2014-01-22 19:05:31 <ToTheGroundGuy> ^
1344 2014-01-22 19:06:08 <shesek> ToTheGroundGuy, that's exactly why there are so many credit card frauds... Bitcoin is much better than that and shouldn't be prone to the same issues
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1346 2014-01-22 19:06:36 <shesek> also, the credit card company will cancel unauthorized charges if someone steals your credit card details or overcharges you
1347 2014-01-22 19:06:39 <shesek> you don't have that with Bitcoin
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1351 2014-01-22 19:08:01 <ToTheGroundGuy> A POS system maintained at a merchant site, doesn't necessarily need to be maintained by the merchant.
1352 2014-01-22 19:08:30 <ToTheGroundGuy> Will scam artists really find a way to crack it so fast?
1353 2014-01-22 19:08:38 <shesek> as long as he controls the physical hardware, he can do whatever he wants with that
1354 2014-01-22 19:08:53 <shesek> plus, you have to trust whoever is manufacturing the POS
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1356 2014-01-22 19:10:09 <shesek> the great achievement of Bitcoin is that its a trustless system
1357 2014-01-22 19:10:52 <Krellan_> shesek: http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~sschang/OS-Qual/reliability/byzantine.htm
1358 2014-01-22 19:11:02 <shesek> just wait until trezor (or something else) becomes cheaper and more attainable for the average joe
1359 2014-01-22 19:11:18 <lechuga__> average joes arent going to want extra crap to carry
1360 2014-01-22 19:11:23 <ToTheGroundGuy> Bitcoin is great, but the hurdle of user experience can't be ignored. It has some glaring flaws still
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1362 2014-01-22 19:11:44 <lechuga__> phone wallets r the only realistic way people r going to carry bitcoin
1363 2014-01-22 19:11:54 <shesek> lechuga__, the average joe carries around a credit card
1364 2014-01-22 19:11:58 <ToTheGroundGuy> >phone wallets
1365 2014-01-22 19:12:00 <lechuga__> and he hates doing that
1366 2014-01-22 19:12:14 <shesek> in a few years, there's no reason why a device for Bitcoin couldn't be much smaller and fit into a wallet
1367 2014-01-22 19:12:21 <shesek> a physical wallet, that is
1368 2014-01-22 19:12:21 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, btw i did some benchmarking of a reindex, surprisingly the check for the block number in the coinbase is apparently significant
1369 2014-01-22 19:12:21 <ToTheGroundGuy> phone wallets are a pain in the ass
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1371 2014-01-22 19:12:42 <Krellan_> Just thought about this again, I remember reading a patch that provided it, did it make it in? Designate certain subnets to be exempt from connection limit.
1372 2014-01-22 19:12:49 <shesek> lechuga__, I never heard of anyone that hates carrying a credit card
1373 2014-01-22 19:12:56 <shesek> I'm personally fine with that
1374 2014-01-22 19:13:09 <Krellan_> I run bitcoind with a fairly tight limit, to avoid saturating my meager DSL line, but want my local computers/phones/p2pool node
1375 2014-01-22 19:13:10 <lechuga__> then why does Coin exist?
1376 2014-01-22 19:13:25 <Krellan_> to be exempt from bitcoind connection limit and always be able to be allowed connection into my bitcoind node.
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1379 2014-01-22 19:14:23 <shesek> lechuga__, it has other advantages. if it were only to save space, I don't think it'll do very well
1380 2014-01-22 19:14:28 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: interesting. Optimizing reindexing isn't high on my TODO list, but good to know
1381 2014-01-22 19:14:53 <shesek> also - you still have to carry that coin card itself. it only saves space if you have multiple cards
1382 2014-01-22 19:15:00 <shesek> people will still have to carry something around...
1383 2014-01-22 19:15:10 <lechuga__> shesek: but the trend is to reduce clutter not create more
1384 2014-01-22 19:15:21 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, well it's in the same pipeline as the normal loading, the only difference is there's no checksig
1385 2014-01-22 19:15:32 <phantomcircuit> it was something like 10% of total CheckBlock() time
1386 2014-01-22 19:16:27 <Krellan_> If such a patch already exists, to let me desginate some subnets to always let them connect, please point me to it?
1387 2014-01-22 19:16:42 <go1111111> ToTheGroundGuy: phone wallets are more of a pain than carrying around an extra USB device that i would not normally carry, when i always carry my phone? i don't think so
1388 2014-01-22 19:16:42 <lechuga__> i dont know that an average joe needs the sophistication of trezor to carry around ~$100 worth of btc on their person
1389 2014-01-22 19:17:18 <lechuga__> trzor makes sense, mind you, but im not sure its the answer to the average joe problem
1390 2014-01-22 19:17:23 <lechuga__> trezor*
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1392 2014-01-22 19:18:03 <lechuga__> but who knows, just MO :)
1393 2014-01-22 19:18:11 <lechuga__> MHO even
1394 2014-01-22 19:19:30 dmanderson is now known as dmanderson_afk
1395 2014-01-22 19:21:10 <lechuga__> i'd like to contribute a useful change to bitcoind
1396 2014-01-22 19:21:17 <lechuga__> is there some obvious laundry list of things that need done
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1399 2014-01-22 19:22:53 <Krellan_> lechuga__: I feel the same way and was able to pluck some low hanging fruit earlier (the ping/pong time measurement thing)
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1401 2014-01-22 19:23:25 <Krellan_> Go write my subnet feature, I could use that :)
1402 2014-01-22 19:24:00 <lechuga__> is it essentially: add ACLs to peer connections?
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1404 2014-01-22 19:24:03 <maaku> lechuga__ Krellan_ : look at the issue list
1405 2014-01-22 19:25:35 <lechuga__> maaku: where is the issue list?
1406 2014-01-22 19:25:44 <maaku> github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
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1408 2014-01-22 19:25:55 <maaku> click on "issues"
1409 2014-01-22 19:26:13 <lechuga__> ah great
1410 2014-01-22 19:26:14 <lechuga__> thx
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1412 2014-01-22 19:27:50 <ToTheGroundGuy> Well a USB drive is easy to carry around if you carry car keys
1413 2014-01-22 19:27:53 <ToTheGroundGuy> :]
1414 2014-01-22 19:28:08 <ToTheGroundGuy> I carry a drive on my keyring, gotta love the kingston datatraveller
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1416 2014-01-22 19:29:16 <ToTheGroundGuy> If I help solve a bitcoind issue, do I get my name somewhere? Like a cryptoplaque on the moon, whenever we get there?
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1439 2014-01-22 19:56:16 <sipa> ToTheGroundGuy: if write a patch that gets accepted as a commit, it will be forever in bitcoin's source history
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1442 2014-01-22 19:56:51 <lechuga__> sipa: are there any standing issues you in particular would like to see fixed?
1443 2014-01-22 19:57:02 <lechuga__> trying to find a good first change to make
1444 2014-01-22 19:57:11 <lechuga__> lots of choices :)
1445 2014-01-22 19:57:41 <maaku> ToTheGroundGuy: hall of heroes https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/graphs/contributors
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1452 2014-01-22 20:01:53 <lechuga__> any1 aware of a proposed change to add a websocket api to bitcoind?
1453 2014-01-22 20:02:23 <maaku> lechuga__: that is generally not a good idea
1454 2014-01-22 20:02:29 <maaku> increases the attack surface
1455 2014-01-22 20:02:45 <lechuga__> it would seem useful to be able to receive broadcasts of txns/blocks
1456 2014-01-22 20:02:46 <maaku> it would best be done as a separate service running alongside bitcoind
1457 2014-01-22 20:02:52 <lechuga__> like the blockchain.info api allows for
1458 2014-01-22 20:02:53 <ToTheGroundGuy> That's BS I don't see cj on there, omg
1459 2014-01-22 20:02:54 <ToTheGroundGuy> -.-
1460 2014-01-22 20:03:29 <maaku> ToTheGroundGuy: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3226
1461 2014-01-22 20:03:45 <lechuga__> im not sure how blockchain.info implemented their websocket api but it seems like they mustve modded bitcoind to support long polling or websockets
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1468 2014-01-22 20:07:55 <sipa> lechuga__: when connecting to b.i, i'm pretty sure you're not talking directly to their bitcoinds
1469 2014-01-22 20:08:21 <lechuga__> sipa: right but they must be getting broadcast updates from somewhere
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1471 2014-01-22 20:08:41 <sipa> yeah, bitcoind, bitcoinj, any of the half-node implementations, ...
1472 2014-01-22 20:08:49 <sipa> you don't really need to get those from a daemon
1473 2014-01-22 20:08:54 <lechuga__> so they either implemented the p2p protocol for their web service or potentially patched bitcoind to allow broadcast
1474 2014-01-22 20:09:00 <lechuga__> id def be inclined to use the latter
1475 2014-01-22 20:09:13 <sipa> i'd definitely do the first
1476 2014-01-22 20:09:24 <lechuga__> i;d trust bitcoind to be less buggy
1477 2014-01-22 20:09:31 <lechuga__> or at least consistently buggy
1478 2014-01-22 20:09:39 <sipa> the p2p protocol is pretty simple
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1480 2014-01-22 20:09:51 <sipa> and obviously you only connect to your own bitcoind's with it
1481 2014-01-22 20:10:00 <lechuga__> yeah
1482 2014-01-22 20:10:11 <sipa> but RPC really doesn't have good performance
1483 2014-01-22 20:10:12 <lechuga__> i tried actually using bitcoinjs-server for this but it seems too broken
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1485 2014-01-22 20:10:23 <lechuga__> so then i considered just patching bitcoind
1486 2014-01-22 20:11:01 <lechuga__> i suppose writing a client would be a good learning exercise
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1491 2014-01-22 20:18:05 <phantomcircuit> sipa, understatement of the year award goes to sipa!!
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1569 2014-01-22 21:19:08 <maaku> lechuga__: just watch the debug log of your bitcoind instance
1570 2014-01-22 21:19:23 <maaku> it tells you when a transaction or block is heard about
1571 2014-01-22 21:19:38 <maaku> then use the RPC interface to fetch it and import it into your traditional web app
1572 2014-01-22 21:22:03 <jgarzik> -blocknotify
1573 2014-01-22 21:22:34 AusBitBank has joined
1574 2014-01-22 21:22:45 <jgarzik> also -walletnotify
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1588 2014-01-22 21:32:51 <maaku> jgarzik: bc.i needs non-wallet transactions from the memory pool though. there's no way to get this out of bitcoind, right?
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1590 2014-01-22 21:33:05 <maaku> although a -mempoolnotify wouldn't be hard to code up
1591 2014-01-22 21:33:47 <sipa> maaku: getrawmempool RPC or mempool P2P
1592 2014-01-22 21:33:50 drayah has joined
1593 2014-01-22 21:34:17 <maaku> sipa: yes, but if you'd rather not poll...
1594 2014-01-22 21:34:32 martjoh has joined
1595 2014-01-22 21:34:35 <sipa> oh, you mean notify
1596 2014-01-22 21:34:40 <martjoh> Hey
1597 2014-01-22 21:34:40 <sipa> well, use the P2P protocol :)
1598 2014-01-22 21:34:53 <martjoh> What do you guys think of a bike that pays you to ride
1599 2014-01-22 21:35:02 <sipa> maaku: #bitcoin
1600 2014-01-22 21:35:03 <sipa> eh
1601 2014-01-22 21:35:03 <martjoh> Could be done with an ardunio
1602 2014-01-22 21:35:09 <sipa> martjoh: #bitcoin
1603 2014-01-22 21:35:22 <martjoh> sipa: But its developing related
1604 2014-01-22 21:35:27 <martjoh> ;;voiceme
1605 2014-01-22 21:35:28 <gribble> Error: You must authenticate via GPG to use this command.
1606 2014-01-22 21:35:32 <sipa> not development of bitcoin
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1608 2014-01-22 21:35:43 <martjoh> sipa: I think it is
1609 2014-01-22 21:35:44 <maaku> martjoh: this is bitcoin protocol development, #bitcoin for applications and such
1610 2014-01-22 21:35:54 <martjoh> fine then
1611 2014-01-22 21:35:57 <martjoh> Good bye!
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1614 2014-01-22 21:36:25 <lechuga__> ok i think ive got my first bitcoind fix picked out
1615 2014-01-22 21:36:28 <lechuga__> seems fairly innocuous
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1617 2014-01-22 21:36:33 <lechuga__> and straight forward
1618 2014-01-22 21:36:39 <sipa> which one?
1619 2014-01-22 21:36:47 <lechuga__> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2667
1620 2014-01-22 21:37:12 <lechuga__> not exactly heroic but good to get familiar
1621 2014-01-22 21:37:29 <sipa> seems like a useful thing
1622 2014-01-22 21:37:42 <jgarzik> maaku, yeah, once you need per-TX granularity, just use P2P protocol
1623 2014-01-22 21:37:45 <lechuga__> my only question is on semantics
1624 2014-01-22 21:37:51 <jgarzik> maaku, RPC is not for real-time streaming events
1625 2014-01-22 21:37:58 <lechuga__> if the coin exists, and is mine but is not locked but the user requests to unlock
1626 2014-01-22 21:38:02 <lechuga__> do i return true or false
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1628 2014-01-22 21:38:13 <lechuga__> i would say return true
1629 2014-01-22 21:38:32 <lechuga__> since what they want is accomplished, albeit implicitly
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1635 2014-01-22 21:43:02 <maaku> lechuga__: i concur
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1637 2014-01-22 21:43:22 <maaku> the semantics should be "return true if the coin is locked"
1638 2014-01-22 21:43:32 <maaku> er, unlocked
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1640 2014-01-22 21:45:30 <lechuga__> cool thx
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1668 2014-01-22 22:23:38 <coke0_> how is the code shared between bitcoind and bitcoin-qt? are they both directly calling the same methods from the same libraries, or is there somehow a shared server that they both communicate with through an API?
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1673 2014-01-22 22:29:47 <sipa> coke0_: bitcoind and bitcoin-qt cannot run together
1674 2014-01-22 22:29:57 <sipa> coke0_: bitcoind is simply bitcoin-qt with the GUI code not compiled in
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1678 2014-01-22 22:32:06 <coke0_> how does the GUI code perform operations? by calling the functions directly or through an abstracted API?
1679 2014-01-22 22:32:50 <sipa> there is an abstraction layer inside the GUI code (walletmodel, clientmodel, ...) which interacts with the code
1680 2014-01-22 22:33:00 <coke0_> cool
1681 2014-01-22 22:33:01 <sipa> *with the core
1682 2014-01-22 22:33:32 <sipa> but in general, the core code is not very wel abstracted
1683 2014-01-22 22:33:44 <sipa> the gui code is much more recent
1684 2014-01-22 22:33:45 <coke0_> so no calling directly CheckTransaction for instance?
1685 2014-01-22 22:33:58 <sipa> walletmodel certainly calls such functions
1686 2014-01-22 22:34:02 <sipa> but the GUI code doesn't
1687 2014-01-22 22:34:04 <coke0_> right of course
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1689 2014-01-22 22:34:22 <sipa> most core datastructures aren't encapsulated
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1692 2014-01-22 22:34:50 <sipa> gui (through its model abstractions) and rpc code access it directly
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1712 2014-01-22 22:50:51 <lechuga__> maaku: more on semantics, if any output in the list to be locked is invalid should the entire call fail or should it result in partial success for some outputs
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1714 2014-01-22 22:51:02 <lechuga__> im inclined to validate them all first
1715 2014-01-22 22:51:07 <lechuga__> and fail if any are invalid
1716 2014-01-22 22:51:42 <sipa> yes, atomic behaviour please
1717 2014-01-22 22:51:48 <sipa> fail entirely, or succeed entirely
1718 2014-01-22 22:52:01 <lechuga__> yup ok
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1723 2014-01-22 22:54:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'm the 15th all-time biggest committer to the repo? o_O
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1726 2014-01-22 22:58:19 Nothing4You has joined
1727 2014-01-22 22:58:24 * helo gives michagogo|cloud a Major Award
1728 2014-01-22 22:58:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|\o/
1729 2014-01-22 22:59:08 <lechuga__> ytmnd ;)
1730 2014-01-22 22:59:42 <lechuga__> what's the opposite of slapping someone around with a large bit of trout?
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1732 2014-01-22 23:00:17 <helo> receiving such a slap?
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1734 2014-01-22 23:00:40 <lechuga__> lol
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1738 2014-01-22 23:04:05 <coke0_> are the bloom filters still a proposal or part of the network protocol yet?
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1740 2014-01-22 23:04:36 <sipa> they are part of the protocol
1741 2014-01-22 23:04:57 <sipa> it's how SPV wallets find their transactions
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