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   3 2014-01-23 00:01:36 <lechuga__> ok i made my first pull req
   4 2014-01-23 00:01:42 <lechuga__> bet i did it wrong :)
   5 2014-01-23 00:07:22 <lechuga__> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3574
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  16 2014-01-23 00:29:03 <Ademan> This may be slightly off topic, feel free to tell me to go away if it is, but has anyone proposed alternative systems to proof-of-work, proof-of-stake, and proof-of-burn?
  17 2014-01-23 00:29:30 <Ademan> (and is there an accepted name for what all three of these accomplish?)
  18 2014-01-23 00:30:10 <sipa> there was a proof-of-toe as proof of concept at some point, where people had to cut off their toes and send them to others to verify
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  22 2014-01-23 00:31:57 <Ademan> sipa: I know these algorithms are supposed to "cost" you something, but dang!
  23 2014-01-23 00:32:00 <SomeoneWeird> sipa, that could work, BIP time?
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  28 2014-01-23 00:36:10 <sipa> Ademan: well, at least (pure) proof of stake doesn't cost you anything
  29 2014-01-23 00:36:36 <sipa> Ademan: and general name... chain-voting algorithms?
  30 2014-01-23 00:36:43 <sipa> (just made up now)
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  34 2014-01-23 00:38:25 <Ademan> sipa: it's as good of a term as any hehe, and it works
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  38 2014-01-23 00:40:35 <Ademan> I tried asking about PoS in #peercoin and received completely unsatisfactory/uninformative answers. My understanding was/is that the "mint"ing operation "cost"s you coin days, which is what you spend to issue a block. I think the problem is that *if* your chain is not selected, then minting doesn't cost you anything, so you may as well participate in all chains. Does that sound right?
  39 2014-01-23 00:40:55 <sipa> bingo
  40 2014-01-23 00:41:13 <sipa> as a rational miner, you have no reason not to mine every fork you see
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  44 2014-01-23 00:44:11 <Ademan> So my proposal for a solution, is that nodes record these minting operations, and reject all mints from the same coin, following the first received, until block X+Y, where X is the number of the attempted mint, and Y is some constant
  45 2014-01-23 00:44:36 <sipa> even on different forks?
  46 2014-01-23 00:45:06 <sipa> i'm not sure you'll still be able to guarantee convergence
  47 2014-01-23 00:45:12 <Ademan> That was my thought, but thinking about it now, I guess an attacker could force the network to fork with that, huh?
  48 2014-01-23 00:45:21 <sipa> yeah, unsure
  49 2014-01-23 00:45:27 <sipa> but that's my feeling too
  50 2014-01-23 00:46:26 <gmaxwell> haha yea, Amiller coined the phrase "nothing at stake problem" for that.
  51 2014-01-23 00:47:48 <gmaxwell> POW is arguably convergent because you consume a scarce and costly resource (power) in a way which is only beneificial if you use it on the eventually surviving consensus. So you're best off only mining along the single place you think is most likely to survive. .. and POS, as imagined by these things, doesn't have that property.
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  53 2014-01-23 00:50:20 <Ademan> My alternative proposal was: provide a system such that one mint is clearly "more fit" than another. Someone proposed somewhere using a pseudo random number derived from the previous block hash, and that mint operations could only come from that address. Changing that around a bit, if the "fitness" of a chain was based on the fitness of each block (in a way that favors the longer chain, but also takes into account the "fitne
  54 2014-01-23 00:50:46 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
  55 2014-01-23 00:51:02 <Ademan> so a block's "fitness" would be derived from "coin age" as in regular PoS, and the "distance" from the "target number" where the target number is the pseudo random number from before
  56 2014-01-23 00:52:12 <sipa> you're not changing the fundamental flaw that the thing being as stake only exists within the chain you are still choosing, no?
  57 2014-01-23 00:52:46 <Ademan> that's correct, but what I'm trying to do is strengthen convergence such that even the miniscule effort it would take to mine another chain, is a waste
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  59 2014-01-23 00:54:16 <Ademan> basically by including "distance", there is actually really *only one* best coin to mint the next block
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  61 2014-01-23 00:54:50 <sipa> yes, but it can switch randomly to another chain, no?
  62 2014-01-23 00:55:09 <sipa> if you kept it alive, and tried to extend it even if it didn't become the new best chain
  63 2014-01-23 00:55:16 <sipa> it might still catch up
  64 2014-01-23 00:56:06 <Ademan> sure "might still", but you yourself couldn't do it, it'd be statistically "really hard" to have anything near the best coin for several successive blocks
  65 2014-01-23 00:56:22 <sipa> i don't see it that way
  66 2014-01-23 00:56:24 <Ademan> (obviously I'm a statistician, they say "really hard" all the time)
  67 2014-01-23 00:56:48 <sipa> as it doesn't cost *anything* to keep an old chain alive, why wouldn't you do it, even if it had a relatively low chance of catching up
  68 2014-01-23 00:57:12 <sipa> if everyone reasons that way, you just keep having hundreds on chains kept alive, constantly fighting with eachother
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  70 2014-01-23 00:57:27 <sipa> some fall behind more than others, and new forks perhaps take their place
  71 2014-01-23 00:57:52 <sipa> but there is no reason why there would be less forks alive than the weakest significant miner's software can support
  72 2014-01-23 00:59:00 <Ademan> Well, I intend to simulate it, but I'm hoping to craft "fitness" so that it really is unwinnable
  73 2014-01-23 00:59:13 <sipa> i don't think you can
  74 2014-01-23 01:00:02 <sipa> if you make it to variable, it may become profitable to just fork a block, because doing so has a high chance to overturn a relatively low-fit block that was mined on top
  75 2014-01-23 01:00:27 <Ademan> you may be right, which is why I haven't posted anything to the forums about this yet (I was also hoping to read some other proposals, but there don't seem to be many...)
  76 2014-01-23 01:01:38 <Ademan> Well that and I want to simulate it first as well heh
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 130 2014-01-23 02:24:54 <lechuga__> can anyone remind me why sending from/to the local wallet has exponentially decreasing performance
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 168 2014-01-23 03:13:41 <warren> wumpus: win64 build running two days, no apparent problems
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 176 2014-01-23 03:30:54 <Diablo-D3> https://bitcoin.app.net/
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 196 2014-01-23 04:00:36 <Luke-Jr> hrm
 197 2014-01-23 04:00:45 <Luke-Jr> is it really impossible to get a balance for a specific time? :/
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 202 2014-01-23 04:05:52 <lechuga__> only blocks are timestamped right?
 203 2014-01-23 04:06:22 <Luke-Jr> yes, and the timestamps are not verified by the network to be precise
 204 2014-01-23 04:06:24 <lechuga__> yeah theres like 10min deviation allowe dor something on that scale
 205 2014-01-23 04:06:40 <lechuga__> does seem kind of funny
 206 2014-01-23 04:06:43 <Luke-Jr> 2 hours
 207 2014-01-23 04:06:46 <lechuga__> lol
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 210 2014-01-23 04:08:09 <lechuga__> were u just musing or did a post make u think of this
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 219 2014-01-23 04:16:09 <Luke-Jr> lechuga__: oh, I was trying to get info together for taxes :/
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 222 2014-01-23 04:24:17 <lechuga__> haha
 223 2014-01-23 04:25:30 <Luke-Jr> would be nice if we had an "Export Statement(-like HTML page)" option
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 227 2014-01-23 04:27:33 <lechuga__> lol
 228 2014-01-23 04:27:36 <lechuga__> quicken integration
 229 2014-01-23 04:28:59 <maaku> Luke-Jr: the avg of the last 11 block timestamps is verified
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 234 2014-01-23 04:31:02 <Luke-Jr> maaku: not for being accurate
 235 2014-01-23 04:31:13 <jcorgan> lechuga__: I expect Quicken 2015 to have a bitcoin module :)
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 237 2014-01-23 04:31:22 <lechuga__> i wouldn't be shocked
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 240 2014-01-23 04:34:47 <lechuga__> i wonder if per txn timestamps
 241 2014-01-23 04:34:52 <lechuga__> and synced network time
 242 2014-01-23 04:35:02 <lechuga__> r called for
 243 2014-01-23 04:35:20 <lechuga__> intuit will probably be like, "guys wtf?"
 244 2014-01-23 04:35:33 <Luke-Jr> synced network time is not practical
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 246 2014-01-23 04:35:46 <maaku> Luke-Jr: there's no way to verify a per-txn timestamp
 247 2014-01-23 04:35:47 <Luke-Jr> per-txn timestamps is not worth it imo
 248 2014-01-23 04:36:04 <Luke-Jr> frankly, I think block timestamps should have just had minute precision
 249 2014-01-23 04:36:19 <Luke-Jr> I guess it's not too late, if we define 8 bits to be extra nonce room
 250 2014-01-23 04:36:30 <Luke-Jr> 24 bit timestamp, 40 bit nonce :P
 251 2014-01-23 04:36:51 <lechuga__> wonder why u want more nonce bits :)
 252 2014-01-23 04:37:09 <lechuga__> dont u think 'balance at time t" will be a more common question
 253 2014-01-23 04:37:15 <maaku> lechuga__: mining
 254 2014-01-23 04:37:29 <maaku> Luke-Jr: isn't that what nonce rolling already does/did?
 255 2014-01-23 04:37:33 <Luke-Jr> lechuga__: but balance at time t is not practical at the per-second precision
 256 2014-01-23 04:37:39 <Luke-Jr> maaku: more or less
 257 2014-01-23 04:37:56 <Luke-Jr> maaku: strictly speaking, nonce rolling is supposed to only update once per second though
 258 2014-01-23 04:38:05 <Luke-Jr> maaku: (and BFGMiner does that with stratum and GBT)
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 262 2014-01-23 04:38:40 <lechuga__> what granularity of time does the IRS care about
 263 2014-01-23 04:38:45 <lechuga__> i hire an accountant
 264 2014-01-23 04:38:52 <Luke-Jr> probably just the yearly
 265 2014-01-23 04:39:30 <lechuga__> 2 hours seems sufficient
 266 2014-01-23 04:40:22 <Luke-Jr> yeah
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 268 2014-01-23 04:40:24 <Luke-Jr> problem is Bitcoin-Qt has no way to calculate it at all
 269 2014-01-23 04:40:24 <Luke-Jr> except for "now"
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 272 2014-01-23 04:41:28 <lechuga__> feature request?
 273 2014-01-23 04:42:29 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: thoughts on a per-transaction/date balance? :P
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 286 2014-01-23 04:51:01 <SomeoneWeird> Luke-Jr, silly and unneeded
 287 2014-01-23 04:51:28 <Luke-Jr> …
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 355 2014-01-23 07:08:01 <robodwyer> trying to work out how to start up an instance of bitcoind from a bootstrap.dat (downloaded from torrent). Can't get it to work, can anyone help?
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 357 2014-01-23 07:08:26 <robodwyer> It just seems to ignore it and start slowly downloading the blockchain from the network...
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 363 2014-01-23 07:15:05 <robodwyer> I'm trying to use this: `bitcoind -loadblock=bootstrap.dat -reindex -daemon`
 364 2014-01-23 07:15:06 <Ademan> robodwyer: what command did you use to start bitcoind?
 365 2014-01-23 07:15:09 <Ademan> hah
 366 2014-01-23 07:15:15 <robodwyer> good timing there haha
 367 2014-01-23 07:15:37 <Ademan> mindreader
 368 2014-01-23 07:16:05 <Ademan> is bootstrap.dat the full path to the bootstrap file?
 369 2014-01-23 07:16:25 <robodwyer> No, haven't tried that yet. hang on a sec.
 370 2014-01-23 07:21:52 <robodwyer> @Ademan doesn't seem to work. Unless my method of checking is wrong - I'm using `bitcoind getinfo` and just looking at the number of blocks
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 375 2014-01-23 07:30:15 <Ademan> not sure to be honest
 376 2014-01-23 07:33:56 <robodwyer> This seems like something that many people must have solved. I'm probably just reading the docs wrong. Do you know of any other guides to using this besides https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Running_bitcoind?
 377 2014-01-23 07:35:23 <abrkn> robodwyer: takes a while for it to go through the bootstrap.dat
 378 2014-01-23 07:35:43 <abrkn> robodwyer: it just has to reside in the datadir, which defaults to ~/.bitcoin iirc
 379 2014-01-23 07:36:44 <robodwyer> abrkn: is there some indication I can look for that it's working? Like in the debug.log, or a quickly increasing block count?
 380 2014-01-23 07:37:11 <robodwyer> and do I still need to provide it on the command line? Or just put it in that folder with the right permissions and restart?
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 388 2014-01-23 07:55:37 <abrkn> robodwyer: maybe run with -d (debug) and see if there's any mention of it
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 434 2014-01-23 09:01:29 <abrkn> how does blockchain.info keep track of which blocks are in the "main" chain? do they parse the chain themselves or have a specialized client?
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 447 2014-01-23 09:13:36 <epscy> random question, are raw pub keys stored in the blockchain?
 448 2014-01-23 09:13:48 Dom_ has joined
 449 2014-01-23 09:15:20 <kinlo> epscy: what do you mean?  pub keys are part of transactions, and transactions are stored in the blockchain...
 450 2014-01-23 09:15:36 <epscy> i mean in terms of pub keys vs addresses
 451 2014-01-23 09:15:37 ZG has joined
 452 2014-01-23 09:15:58 <epscy> is it the address stored in the blockchain, or the raw pub key?
 453 2014-01-23 09:16:07 <kinlo> both
 454 2014-01-23 09:16:12 <epscy> oh?
 455 2014-01-23 09:16:30 <kinlo> you can create a transaction that pays out to a public key (but that requires the public key, so not used often)
 456 2014-01-23 09:16:54 <aynstein> kinlo: do you happen to know of somewhere that tracks the block with the highest difficulty
 457 2014-01-23 09:16:56 <epscy> i thought there was a thing where if you re-used addresses and others had the public key, you might be able to derive the private key
 458 2014-01-23 09:17:05 <kinlo> or you can create a transaction that pays to the bitcoin address (but that requires the public key to be supplied when the transaction is spent)
 459 2014-01-23 09:17:10 <epscy> am i imagining that?
 460 2014-01-23 09:17:32 <kinlo> these do seem questions for #bitcoin :)
 461 2014-01-23 09:17:56 <epscy> we were talking in #bitcoin and no one knowledgeable was about...
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 463 2014-01-23 09:19:13 <kinlo> epscy: if you reuse the random component when signing a transaction, your private key becomes vurneable
 464 2014-01-23 09:19:21 <epscy> oh right
 465 2014-01-23 09:19:40 <epscy> so just reusing a pub key (where the raw pub key is known to others) is secure?
 466 2014-01-23 09:20:17 <kinlo> but afaik gmaxwell was working on a system that this cannot happen by enforcing the random component to be calculated from the data to be signed, so different data always produces a different secret
 467 2014-01-23 09:20:51 <kinlo> epscy: many people are reusing their keys
 468 2014-01-23 09:21:15 <kinlo> if it wasn't secure, one would have a field day stealing coins :)
 469 2014-01-23 09:21:33 <wumpus> epscy: the more times you sign using a pubkey, the less secure it is, at least theoretically... another reason not to reuse addresses
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 476 2014-01-23 09:23:40 <epscy> right, yeah i wasn't suggesting that the private key instantly becomes easily derivable once you re-use an address
 477 2014-01-23 09:23:44 <epscy> thanks guys
 478 2014-01-23 09:23:49 <wumpus> eh, sign using a private key associated to a pubkey, you can't sign using a pubkey :p
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 480 2014-01-23 09:24:40 <wumpus> and indeed if a client somehow chooses the same random component when signing, you've effectively revealed the private key, that has happened in some android clients due to lack of entropy and re-use of addresses
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 485 2014-01-23 09:26:27 <kinlo> wumpus: yeah, you know what I mean :)
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 487 2014-01-23 09:26:45 <wumpus> kinlo: yes
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 510 2014-01-23 09:43:27 <ItsDom> Other than integrity of wallet addresses, and reducing ECDSA attacks by only having public key in plaintext when it's too late, is there any other reason why the public key is hashed to make a wallet address?
 511 2014-01-23 09:44:40 <wumpus> the addresses are shorter
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 513 2014-01-23 09:45:48 <ItsDom> haha, hello again wumpus, thanks:)
 514 2014-01-23 09:45:50 <wumpus> (but only by a factor of about 60%)
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 516 2014-01-23 09:46:26 <ItsDom> I'm trying to refresh my knowledge, and I thought that I used to know another reason to do with security, maybe I didn't.
 517 2014-01-23 09:46:28 <wumpus> it's not really a big deal, it was chosen to use that as the default for transactions a long time ago and it stuck
 518 2014-01-23 09:47:08 <ItsDom> I understand, thanks.
 519 2014-01-23 09:47:12 <wumpus> 'pay to script hash' would be the more modern type, in which a payment is made to a hash of a script (to reclaim it) instead of a hash of a pubkey
 520 2014-01-23 09:48:55 <wumpus> this allows for some more flexibility, like N-out-of-M transactions used for escrow, without making the output longer (thus having to use longer addresses)
 521 2014-01-23 09:49:01 <kiddouk> hi everyone.
 522 2014-01-23 09:49:17 <kiddouk> Anyone here tried to compile the master branch against QT5 ?
 523 2014-01-23 09:49:31 <wumpus> yes, it seems I do nothing else these days
 524 2014-01-23 09:49:38 <kiddouk> the autotools seems to have some problems around --with-gui-bindir argument
 525 2014-01-23 09:49:50 <ItsDom> interesting, I'd not seen pay-to-script-hash before. It makes sense.
 526 2014-01-23 09:49:52 <kiddouk> (at least under OS X)
 527 2014-01-23 09:50:06 <wumpus> what kind of problems?
 528 2014-01-23 09:50:09 <wumpus> it's ignoring the option or?
 529 2014-01-23 09:50:30 <kiddouk> wumpus : configure: WARNING: unrecognized options: --with-gui-bindir
 530 2014-01-23 09:50:44 <kiddouk> though the help message specifies it.
 531 2014-01-23 09:50:52 <wumpus> seems it doesn't exist
 532 2014-01-23 09:50:55 <wumpus> try --with-qt-bindir
 533 2014-01-23 09:51:03 <kiddouk> so then you need to change you PATH ENV .. not very optimal for compiling stuff :)
 534 2014-01-23 09:51:05 <wumpus> dunno why the help message was changed
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 537 2014-01-23 09:51:26 <wumpus> we switched to --with-gui instead of --with-qt, maybe that got changed accidentally too
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 540 2014-01-23 09:51:41 <kiddouk> ok, this looks like someone did a search/replace too much.
 541 2014-01-23 09:51:46 <wumpus> hehe
 542 2014-01-23 09:51:57 <kiddouk> Will send a patch then :)
 543 2014-01-23 09:51:57 <wumpus> but with --with-qt-bindir it works?
 544 2014-01-23 09:52:01 <kiddouk> yup
 545 2014-01-23 09:52:03 <wumpus> great
 546 2014-01-23 09:52:08 <kiddouk> sory, I should have looked into that myself.
 547 2014-01-23 09:52:13 <kiddouk> sorry*
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 549 2014-01-23 09:52:18 <wumpus> well thanks for noting it at least
 550 2014-01-23 09:52:28 <kiddouk> and thanks for the help :)
 551 2014-01-23 09:53:40 <kiddouk> Also, should I bother making a patch for all the warning about printf on MAC OS X ? (gnu_printf)
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 553 2014-01-23 09:54:48 <wumpus> kiddouk: you'd help us more if you tested #3549, which avoids the entire printf issue
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 555 2014-01-23 09:55:03 <kiddouk> oki.
 556 2014-01-23 09:55:07 <kiddouk> will have a look then.
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 558 2014-01-23 09:56:06 <wumpus> if there are still strange warnings with that applied I'd like to know, I can't test with LLVM myself at the moment
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 579 2014-01-23 10:25:23 <kiddouk> wumpus: looks good. Will report on the issue that I have tested with LLVM 5.0
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 616 2014-01-23 11:54:22 <CryptDrift> What is the best to accept funds anonymously and send users refund when necessary?
 617 2014-01-23 11:57:09 <sipa> the best what?
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 619 2014-01-23 11:59:17 <t7> the best of you
 620 2014-01-23 11:59:50 <wumpus> CryptDrift: create a website that deals out addresses to donate to, and lets people specify an associated refund addres
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 622 2014-01-23 12:01:19 <CryptDrift> sipa, best in user experiance, I thought of doing this without login
 623 2014-01-23 12:03:27 <wumpus> no need for a login, just make sure you're able to associate the receiving address with a refund address
 624 2014-01-23 12:03:43 Ursium has joined
 625 2014-01-23 12:04:34 <CryptDrift> wumpus, that sounds cool, any pointers on how to it?
 626 2014-01-23 12:04:53 <wumpus> <wumpus> CryptDrift: create a website that deals out addresses to donate to, and lets people specify an associated refund addres
 627 2014-01-23 12:05:35 <wumpus> just a simple form...
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 630 2014-01-23 12:06:34 <CryptDrift> aww. so he users enter their receiving address when we give them their address for transaction?
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 632 2014-01-23 12:06:51 <wumpus> yes
 633 2014-01-23 12:07:14 <CryptDrift> wumpus, thanks thanks I think it'll work for my need
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 639 2014-01-23 12:16:00 <wumpus> CryptDrift: if running a bitcoind on or connected to the web server is undesirable, you can just pregenerate like 10000 addresses to deal out and store them in a database
 640 2014-01-23 12:16:45 <TD> good day
 641 2014-01-23 12:16:56 <wumpus> hey
 642 2014-01-23 12:17:23 <CryptDrift> wumpus, great advice, this is to ensure that I don't have the private keys in the server?
 643 2014-01-23 12:19:01 <wumpus> CryptDrift: it's a very simple way to make sure that your wallet can be offline, yes (more involved ways would use deterministically generated addresses of some kind)
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 650 2014-01-23 12:21:33 <CryptDrift> wumpus, any suggestions for deterministic methods to generate large number of addresses?
 651 2014-01-23 12:22:22 <wumpus> CryptDrift: no, you're on your own there, I have no time to explain all that (it can also be error prone if you do something wrong), if you can use the simple method I'd just go for that
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 653 2014-01-23 12:23:51 <CryptDrift> wumpus, thanks a ton for all the solid advice :)
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 658 2014-01-23 12:34:17 <gavinandresen> howdy TD
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 660 2014-01-23 12:34:37 <TD> it's gavin!
 661 2014-01-23 12:34:40 <TD> how are you doing?
 662 2014-01-23 12:35:10 <gavinandresen> I'm good.  Overwhelmed with reporters recently....
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 669 2014-01-23 12:44:36 <CryptDrift> gavinandresen, o.O BIPS 70
 670 2014-01-23 12:45:58 <CryptDrift> yea I remembered correctly \m/
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 686 2014-01-23 13:07:24 <kiddouk> wumpus: I can see that you have tested master with QT 5.0.2. Did you do the same with 5.2.0 ? It fails for me at the moment. And was wonrdering if you had any tips.
 687 2014-01-23 13:07:47 <wumpus> kiddouk: I've tested with many different qt versions
 688 2014-01-23 13:07:53 <wumpus> kiddouk: can you be specific what is the problem?
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 690 2014-01-23 13:09:43 <wumpus> for windows gitian build we use 5.2.0 and haven't noticed any issues
 691 2014-01-23 13:10:19 <kiddouk> it seems that the compile stage cannot finding the correct include despite specifying PKG_CONFIG_PATH
 692 2014-01-23 13:11:03 <kiddouk> complains about  'QByteArray' file not found
 693 2014-01-23 13:11:25 <kiddouk> which is part of QTCore Framework
 694 2014-01-23 13:11:40 <wumpus> and if you specify --with-qt-incdir ?
 695 2014-01-23 13:11:41 <kiddouk> compiling with 5.0.2 works like a charm though.
 696 2014-01-23 13:11:43 <ItsDom> Where can I find information about the differences between versions 1 and 2 in the block header?
 697 2014-01-23 13:12:10 <kiddouk> wumpus: same error (note also that specifying PKG_CONFIG_PATH may overrid --with-qt-incdir)
 698 2014-01-23 13:12:38 <wumpus> qbytearray exists in qt4 and qt5, so it cannot have anything to do with version incompatibilities
 699 2014-01-23 13:12:41 <kiddouk> not specifying PKG_CONFIG makes my configure script fail.
 700 2014-01-23 13:14:34 <wumpus> you'll have to dig into the configure script a bit to see why
 701 2014-01-23 13:15:51 <kiddouk> wumpus: actually, I think that I found why. Looks like the file architecture has changed between 5.0.2 and 5.2.0, especially for the includes.
 702 2014-01-23 13:15:55 <kiddouk> I'll dig further.
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 705 2014-01-23 13:18:51 <wumpus> kiddouk: btw I fixed the typo in configure --help https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/53e9d3aa44e24fecd2d58984baff3cb4af23c12e
 706 2014-01-23 13:20:35 <kiddouk> wumpus: thanks for that.
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 732 2014-01-23 14:16:29 <kiddouk> wumpus: I got to debug the situation with Qt5.2.0 on Mac OS X. Qt packagers are now using the "Framework" file structure supported by LLVM (QtCore.Framework contains some special directories that end up pointsing to the good dir for includes)
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 734 2014-01-23 14:17:14 <kiddouk> PKG_CONFIG should use the "libs" directive for configuring properly the options for LLVM
 735 2014-01-23 14:17:20 <kiddouk> for example => Libs: -F${libdir} -framework QtCore
 736 2014-01-23 14:17:23 <wumpus> kiddouk: right, sounds complicated, and explains why there is no similar problem with qt 5.2.0 on linux/windows
 737 2014-01-23 14:17:26 <kiddouk> from At5Core.pc
 738 2014-01-23 14:17:44 <kiddouk> exactly.
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 740 2014-01-23 14:18:17 <wumpus> it's always easiest to get new dependencies to work on linux, next is windows, mac is always worst :)
 741 2014-01-23 14:18:35 <kiddouk> If we can get PKG_CONFIG to use the -F argument  at compile time (the one provided by Libs), then we are mostly good (expect 2 includes in the test directory that are obviously wrong)
 742 2014-01-23 14:19:28 <kiddouk> g++ --help gives
 743 2014-01-23 14:19:32 <kiddouk> => -F <value>              Add directory to framework include search path
 744 2014-01-23 14:19:39 <wumpus> so it's partiallly a matter of using pkg-config properly?
 745 2014-01-23 14:19:57 <kiddouk> had to look deep deep down in LLVM and their framework system :)
 746 2014-01-23 14:20:02 <kiddouk> yup.
 747 2014-01-23 14:20:12 <kiddouk> I think that I can give it a try on my own
 748 2014-01-23 14:20:20 <wumpus> must be something in src/m4/bitcoin_qt.m4 then (there are two implementations of qt-finding there, one that uses pkgconfig and one that doesn't)
 749 2014-01-23 14:20:30 <kiddouk> just wanted to make sure I was not making an obvious mistake. And explaining it to someone else helps :)
 750 2014-01-23 14:20:41 <kiddouk> ah ! Good pointer ! Thanks.
 751 2014-01-23 14:21:55 <wumpus> the non-pkgconfig case is used for the windows cross-compile, but see _BITCOIN_QT_FIND_LIBS_WITH_PKGCONFIG
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 754 2014-01-23 14:22:43 <kiddouk> thanks. There will be some additional work for the linking part
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 756 2014-01-23 14:23:06 <wumpus> from what I see it simply uses the PKG_CONFIG interface, surprised it doesn't handle it
 757 2014-01-23 14:23:08 <kiddouk> where we should provide the -framework argument to specify the right framework to use at linking ime
 758 2014-01-23 14:23:21 <wumpus> hopefully you don't need to add all kinds of kludgjes
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 760 2014-01-23 14:23:54 <kiddouk> I'd like not to at least :) Let's see what I can come up with with that ... mess.
 761 2014-01-23 14:23:55 <wumpus> but if pkg-config --libs returns the right arguments, that's just a matter of running that?
 762 2014-01-23 14:23:59 <wumpus> no need to provide -F manually
 763 2014-01-23 14:24:23 <wumpus> oh we already add -framework Foundation -framework ApplicationServices -framework AppKit
 764 2014-01-23 14:24:41 <wumpus> see the case $host in darwin on line 106
 765 2014-01-23 14:24:45 <kiddouk> ah. great.
 766 2014-01-23 14:24:50 <wumpus> what a crap :)
 767 2014-01-23 14:25:05 <kiddouk> well, that's already 50% done ;)
 768 2014-01-23 14:25:40 <kiddouk> anyway, it's not THAT bad as it will unify things a bit.
 769 2014-01-23 14:25:57 <kiddouk> Let's hope that we can support some kind of backward compatibility for 5.0.2 too :)
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 771 2014-01-23 14:26:21 <wumpus> well if you use pkg-config it should keep working with 5.0.2 too
 772 2014-01-23 14:26:27 <kiddouk> ok.
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 778 2014-01-23 14:32:07 <wumpus> from what I see it must already be calling pkg-config --libs from PKG_CHECK_MODULES() to build QT_LIBS
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 781 2014-01-23 14:32:32 <kiddouk> :-/
 782 2014-01-23 14:32:57 <wumpus> but putting some echo statements here and there will probably help debugging I suppose
 783 2014-01-23 14:33:47 <wumpus> at least I don't know any other way to debug autoconf issues than putting echo statements everywhere and using shotgun debugging :)
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 785 2014-01-23 14:35:50 <kiddouk> putting echo everywhere a.k.a I have no idea how that shit is working :-)
 786 2014-01-23 14:35:55 <kiddouk> Looking forward to do it :)
 787 2014-01-23 14:37:05 <sipa> there's a flag you can pass to bash, which echoes every line before executing it
 788 2014-01-23 14:37:29 <wumpus> yes, that can help
 789 2014-01-23 14:37:45 <kiddouk> something like make -d ?
 790 2014-01-23 14:37:46 <wumpus> kiddouk: btw if the problem is related to include files, why are you chasing --libs 
 791 2014-01-23 14:38:08 <wumpus> shouldn't it be something with QT_CFLAGS / QT_INCLUDES in that case?
 792 2014-01-23 14:38:43 <kiddouk> because -F in pkgconfig is defined in (as strange as it sounds), 'libs:' directive for each package.
 793 2014-01-23 14:39:00 <kiddouk> and -F refers to ... Add directory to framework include search path
 794 2014-01-23 14:39:32 <wumpus> in that case, pkgconfig is lying
 795 2014-01-23 14:39:33 <kiddouk> I know that sounds weird ... but for now, that's all I've got to debug that compilation problem. :-/
 796 2014-01-23 14:39:52 <wumpus> it should be returning that for --cflags as well, so it gets passed to the compiler
 797 2014-01-23 14:40:04 <wumpus> if you return something for --libs it will be passed to the linker and nothing else
 798 2014-01-23 14:40:12 <kiddouk> I do agree.
 799 2014-01-23 14:40:27 <wumpus> so the solution is to fix your pkgconfig, not the build system :)
 800 2014-01-23 14:40:36 <kiddouk> ahah. Well...
 801 2014-01-23 14:40:54 <kiddouk> or redefine Qt5.0.2 pkconfig rules ;)
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 805 2014-01-23 14:41:55 <wumpus> well the pkgconfig for a module is defined in a simple .pc ascii file, so it should be fairly simple to try out
 806 2014-01-23 14:41:56 <kiddouk> wumpus: here is Qt5Core.pc
 807 2014-01-23 14:41:57 <kiddouk> https://gist.github.com/kiddouk/8579362
 808 2014-01-23 14:42:28 <kiddouk> warning, this is a modified version (for includedir)
 809 2014-01-23 14:42:35 <wumpus> that looks fine?  
 810 2014-01-23 14:42:37 <wumpus> ohh
 811 2014-01-23 14:43:28 <kiddouk> the "Libs:" is what we want. In a funny way, they have defined the Include Framework in "Libs" section.
 812 2014-01-23 14:44:56 <kiddouk> I have reverted to the "original" content. You can refresh the gist for the "real" version.
 813 2014-01-23 14:45:28 <kiddouk> anyway, it's the Cflags that should contain the -F directive. Or Am I making a mistake ?
 814 2014-01-23 14:46:45 <wumpus> I think the -I should suffice
 815 2014-01-23 14:47:22 <wumpus> you can try adding the -F flags to the cflags as well, of course, but will that help the compiler find the include files?
 816 2014-01-23 14:47:27 <kiddouk> From what I have seen the last 2 hours, it doesn't.
 817 2014-01-23 14:47:37 <wumpus> well just try it then
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 825 2014-01-23 14:55:38 <chichov> hey folks, I have a quick question
 826 2014-01-23 14:55:50 <chichov> can anyone tell me which fields are included in the double-hash of the transaction?
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 828 2014-01-23 14:55:58 <sipa> all
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 830 2014-01-23 14:56:49 <sipa> at peast if you're talking about the txid
 831 2014-01-23 14:56:58 <sipa> the signature hash is differemt
 832 2014-01-23 14:57:01 <chichov> that is: version, tx_in count, tx_in[], tx_out count, tx_out[], lock_time?
 833 2014-01-23 14:57:09 <sipa> correct
 834 2014-01-23 14:57:36 <ItsDom> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions
 835 2014-01-23 14:57:43 <chichov> I'm talking about the OutPoint field in the transaction input
 836 2014-01-23 14:57:53 <chichov> which is supposed to reference a previous transaction
 837 2014-01-23 14:57:59 <sipa> yep, that's the txid
 838 2014-01-23 14:58:09 <chichov> alright, thanks
 839 2014-01-23 14:58:14 <sipa> which is a double sha256 of the serialized CTransaction
 840 2014-01-23 14:58:20 <sipa> including all fields you mentioned
 841 2014-01-23 14:58:37 <chichov> hm, did you get that info from the code or some reference?
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 844 2014-01-23 14:59:39 <sipa> no idea, too long ago since i learnt that :)
 845 2014-01-23 15:00:10 <chichov> alright then
 846 2014-01-23 15:00:25 <chichov> I'm just still wondering about one scenario
 847 2014-01-23 15:00:46 <sipa> which is?
 848 2014-01-23 15:00:46 <chichov> what if I want to transact money that was given to me 1000 blocks away
 849 2014-01-23 15:00:54 <sipa> ok
 850 2014-01-23 15:01:00 <chichov> and there is no reference within the newly created transaction to the previous block
 851 2014-01-23 15:01:15 <sipa> there isn't
 852 2014-01-23 15:01:28 <sipa> transactions are independent from blocks
 853 2014-01-23 15:01:38 <sipa> blocks just provide an authoritative ordering for them
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 855 2014-01-23 15:02:02 <chichov> so I'd have to search block-by-block all the way back until I find the right transaction?
 856 2014-01-23 15:02:26 <chichov> the hashes of transactions aren't even included, so I'd have to compute them locally as metadata, right?
 857 2014-01-23 15:02:27 <sipa> well you should have received the transaction that credited you, and remember it
 858 2014-01-23 15:02:40 <sipa> even without it being in a block
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 860 2014-01-23 15:03:07 <sipa> how would you even know you had any money to spend in the first place
 861 2014-01-23 15:03:20 <chichov> yep, that's true
 862 2014-01-23 15:03:36 <chichov> but you basically derive all that information, step-by-step from all the transactions
 863 2014-01-23 15:03:54 <sipa> you watch from transactions that credit you, and remember them
 864 2014-01-23 15:03:58 <chichov> and after my CPU has melted halfway after a week of work, then I know
 865 2014-01-23 15:04:16 <sipa> you don't need to scan history for that
 866 2014-01-23 15:04:27 <sipa> you know your address didn't exist before you created it
 867 2014-01-23 15:04:36 <sipa> so no need to scan the blocks before that point
 868 2014-01-23 15:04:43 <chichov> unless I import a previously existing wallet
 869 2014-01-23 15:05:05 <sipa> a wallet or a key?
 870 2014-01-23 15:05:14 <chichov> uhm, my mistake, a key
 871 2014-01-23 15:05:19 <sipa> importing a wallet means you can import its known transactions with it
 872 2014-01-23 15:05:25 <chichov> from which you can derive the address
 873 2014-01-23 15:05:31 <sipa> whrn importing a key, you ideally know its birthdate
 874 2014-01-23 15:05:42 <chichov> yep, else it gets time-costly
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 876 2014-01-23 15:06:22 <chichov> btw, when re-installing the client, does it take so long because all transactions in the blockchain are verified?
 877 2014-01-23 15:06:33 <chichov> so long because*
 878 2014-01-23 15:07:35 <ItsDom> Yes. That's why some clients don't take ages, because they don't verify all the transactions
 879 2014-01-23 15:08:12 <chichov> you mean these light clients?
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 881 2014-01-23 15:09:17 <ItsDom> Yep (like electrum)
 882 2014-01-23 15:09:59 <chichov> rather risky to accept transactions without verifying all references, signatures etc
 883 2014-01-23 15:10:29 <chichov> are there any special mechanisms implemented to prevent attacks on that?
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 885 2014-01-23 15:13:29 <ItsDom> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Thin_Client_Security
 886 2014-01-23 15:13:39 <sipa> chichov: the SPV security model (simplified payment verification) was described by Satoshi's paper
 887 2014-01-23 15:13:45 <chichov> oh, thanks
 888 2014-01-23 15:13:56 <sipa> chichov: it boils down to verifying the blocks a transaction are in, instead of verifying the transactions themself
 889 2014-01-23 15:14:11 <chichov> alright, cannot recall reading that part then
 890 2014-01-23 15:14:41 <chichov> one last thing is somewhat unclear to me, especially because there seem to be different opinions on how it's done
 891 2014-01-23 15:14:46 <ItsDom> chichov: it's in section 8.
 892 2014-01-23 15:15:06 <chichov> it's the nonce, of course the 32 bit overflow rather quickly so we need more source of randomness
 893 2014-01-23 15:15:30 <chichov> which is apparently taken from the coinbase part
 894 2014-01-23 15:16:00 <ItsDom> chichov: I think the randomness comes mainly from the nonce, as well as mixtures of transactions and the coinbase also.
 895 2014-01-23 15:16:02 <chichov> this influences the merkle-root, right?
 896 2014-01-23 15:16:21 <ItsDom> all transactions influence the merkelroot (I think)
 897 2014-01-23 15:16:25 <chichov> because I'm not sure if it is included
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 899 2014-01-23 15:17:02 <chichov> yea, that's the question
 900 2014-01-23 15:17:03 <ItsDom> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/7744/what-are-the-transactions-included-in-the-merkle-root
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 902 2014-01-23 15:17:26 <helo> yes, changing the order of transactions changes the merkleroot
 903 2014-01-23 15:18:03 <chichov> I assume "every valid transaction" includes the coinbase generation?
 904 2014-01-23 15:18:09 <ItsDom> yes, we know that, it was more a question of if the coinbase transaction is included in the merkleroot. There's no reason why it shouldn't be (that's why I think it is )
 905 2014-01-23 15:19:10 <helo> same
 906 2014-01-23 15:19:29 <chichov> alright, so we have the nonce (32 bits), the merkle-root (256 bits)
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 908 2014-01-23 15:19:37 <chichov> and the timestamp even
 909 2014-01-23 15:19:43 <chichov> which is 32 bits
 910 2014-01-23 15:19:54 <sipa> all correct
 911 2014-01-23 15:20:01 <sipa> the merkle root also includes the coinbase
 912 2014-01-23 15:20:17 <chichov> alright, in that case we have plenty of variation there
 913 2014-01-23 15:20:27 <chichov> do you know the maximum size of the coinbase field?
 914 2014-01-23 15:20:34 <sipa> 100 bytes
 915 2014-01-23 15:20:40 <chichov> ah yea
 916 2014-01-23 15:20:54 <chichov> plenty of randomness then
 917 2014-01-23 15:21:01 <sipa> more than needed
 918 2014-01-23 15:21:18 <chichov> excellent, thank you for your great answers
 919 2014-01-23 15:21:50 <chichov> I'll continue going through the spec then :)
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 921 2014-01-23 15:22:07 <ItsDom> yup, the wiki is your friend:)
 922 2014-01-23 15:22:08 <wumpus> kiddouk: any luck?
 923 2014-01-23 15:22:23 <helo> note that the only true spec is the source code
 924 2014-01-23 15:22:32 <chichov> yea, absolutely
 925 2014-01-23 15:22:39 <chichov> there are some serious defficiencies
 926 2014-01-23 15:22:53 <chichov> deficiencies*
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 932 2014-01-23 15:27:01 <kiddouk> wumpus: yes :)
 933 2014-01-23 15:27:06 <kiddouk> it works.
 934 2014-01-23 15:27:09 <wumpus> great
 935 2014-01-23 15:27:13 <kiddouk> but ...
 936 2014-01-23 15:27:20 <kiddouk> (it cannot come to a free price)
 937 2014-01-23 15:27:38 <wumpus> well, file an upstream issue for them to fix the .pc
 938 2014-01-23 15:28:00 <kiddouk> yes, but we need to make a decision before that
 939 2014-01-23 15:28:27 <kiddouk> if I just file an issue mentioning the -F problem in the cflags, we are good to review all the code of bitcoin qt
 940 2014-01-23 15:28:38 <wumpus> or at least explain why they shipped a seemingly wrong version
 941 2014-01-23 15:28:52 <wumpus> huh?
 942 2014-01-23 15:28:53 <kiddouk> and change "include <QApplication>" and change it innto "#include <QtCore/QApplication>"
 943 2014-01-23 15:29:18 <kiddouk> since, the include is a "base include" from Qt (see my gist).
 944 2014-01-23 15:29:25 <wumpus> no, don't do that, that will break Qt4 compatibility
 945 2014-01-23 15:29:30 <kiddouk> exactly.
 946 2014-01-23 15:29:37 <kiddouk> so I think that the issue is double.
 947 2014-01-23 15:29:56 <kiddouk> They need to include the -F in clfags and change -I to comething more package specific.
 948 2014-01-23 15:30:32 <kiddouk> hmm.. now that I explain it, this sucks.
 949 2014-01-23 15:31:23 <kiddouk> it's already done (-I to a path that includes the package) (see: https://gist.github.com/kiddouk/8579362)
 950 2014-01-23 15:31:28 <kiddouk> >_<
 951 2014-01-23 15:32:00 <wumpus> yes -- the cflags are  exactly the same as the Qt 5.0.2 linux .pc I've seen
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 953 2014-01-23 15:32:16 <wumpus> it already nests into -I${includedir}/QtCore
 954 2014-01-23 15:32:29 <kiddouk> which is wrong for 5.2.0
 955 2014-01-23 15:32:54 <wumpus> AFAIK qt project's stance is that it's encouraged to do  #include <QtCore/QByteArray.h> but they haven't completely removed support for the old way yet
 956 2014-01-23 15:33:26 <kiddouk> hmmm... which let us in limbo.
 957 2014-01-23 15:34:24 <wumpus> well it means there are two mistakes in the .pc
 958 2014-01-23 15:34:56 <kiddouk> agreed.
 959 2014-01-23 15:35:05 <wumpus> unless they intentionally breke compatibility with projects that are written with qt4 compatibility in mind, but I doubt it
 960 2014-01-23 15:35:12 <wumpus> s/breke/broke
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 965 2014-01-23 15:35:51 <kiddouk> I will push forward in my codebase to get a working binary with a proper pkgconfig directory. Once this is done, I will file an issue at Qt.
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 969 2014-01-23 15:38:37 <wumpus> kiddouk: this is the windows .pc file for qt 5.2.0: https://gist.github.com/laanwj/8580481  ... they do still have the Cflags: -I${includedir}/QtGui -I${includedir} to support bare #include <QByteArray> etc
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 971 2014-01-23 15:39:39 <wumpus> so at least it doesn't seem intentional that they broke compatibility for mac, likely they moved some files around but forgot to update the .pc accordingly
 972 2014-01-23 15:41:31 <kiddouk> wumpus: agreed. I think that they got caught between two philosophies on 2 different plateforms
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 977 2014-01-23 15:46:56 <wumpus> or maybe they don't intend people to use the .pc at all on mac, but in that case they shouldn't package it 
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 996 2014-01-23 16:01:43 <kiddouk> wumpus: I hardly doubt it tbh. Otherwise, they wouldn't have worked on the -F argument.
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1165 2014-01-23 18:35:43 <chichov> hey folks
1166 2014-01-23 18:36:01 <chichov> I was just wondering, can the bitcoin source be imported as a project into eclipse?
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1169 2014-01-23 18:36:40 <helo> anything is possible
1170 2014-01-23 18:36:52 <helo> it isn't worth it, though
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1172 2014-01-23 18:37:20 <chichov> heh, is it that bad?
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1174 2014-01-23 18:39:15 <helo> nobody uses eclipse to work on bitcoin, so you'd have to do whatever work eclipse requires to import an autotools project
1175 2014-01-23 18:40:12 <chichov> ouch, alright
1176 2014-01-23 18:40:18 <chichov> what's the standard IDE then?
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1178 2014-01-23 18:40:32 <chichov> gedit or emacs?^^
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1186 2014-01-23 18:53:07 <nanotube> seems there's a bit of a slow memory leak in bitcoind. been running a node for the past 3+ months, and it went from 500M to 1.1G, while maintaining a relatively stable connection count all that time.
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1189 2014-01-23 18:58:21 <gmaxwell> nanotube: what version?
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1191 2014-01-23 18:59:58 <nanotube> 0.8.5
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1194 2014-01-23 19:00:11 <nanotube> (obv not the .6 since it wasn't out for 3+ months :) )
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1196 2014-01-23 19:00:26 <gmaxwell> yea was just checking that it was 0.8.2 since we've fixed some memory leaks since then.
1197 2014-01-23 19:00:58 <nanotube> aye
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1199 2014-01-23 19:01:37 <nanotube> i'm about to restart with .6, was wondering if there's any info i can collect to help, before i stop it.
1200 2014-01-23 19:01:50 <chichov> how come there is a field called "ScriptLen" in the wiki in the transaction inputs, whereas the code doesn't have anything like that in it?
1201 2014-01-23 19:02:57 <chichov> sorry, it's "script length" (ref https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification)
1202 2014-01-23 19:03:04 <chichov> under the definition of TxIn
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1204 2014-01-23 19:04:14 <chichov> for the code: see core.cpp and the constructor for CTxIn
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1224 2014-01-23 19:15:30 <swulf--> does the reference client try to broadcast blocks it receives while performing an initial sync?
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1229 2014-01-23 19:17:40 <lechuga_> hmm is github down for any1 else
1230 2014-01-23 19:18:17 <teward> lechuga_: it was up for me earlier.
1231 2014-01-23 19:18:18 * teward checks
1232 2014-01-23 19:18:33 <teward> works for me here.
1233 2014-01-23 19:19:12 <lechuga_> hmm weird
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1245 2014-01-23 19:24:31 <sipa> chichov: the scriptLen descriptor is really just scriptSig.size()
1246 2014-01-23 19:24:46 <sipa> chichov: the serialization for CScript first writes its length, and then the data
1247 2014-01-23 19:26:35 <chichov> I just checked CTxIn in core.h and it appears that during the serialization only prevout, scriptSig and nSequence are included
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1249 2014-01-23 19:27:51 <chichov> same goes for CTransaction, where I mistakenly thought that #transaction inputs and #transaction outputs would be included
1250 2014-01-23 19:29:21 <chichov> lemme dig a little bit deeper, maybe I'll find the length part somewhere else
1251 2014-01-23 19:30:03 <sipa> chichov: the serialization of CTransaction is just serialize(inputs) + serialize(outputs) + serialize(nSequence)
1252 2014-01-23 19:30:36 <sipa> chichov: the serialization of inputs, however is serialize(num_inputs) + (foreach input in inputs: serialize(input))
1253 2014-01-23 19:30:37 <chichov> and the version and the locktime?
1254 2014-01-23 19:30:44 <sipa> yes, those too
1255 2014-01-23 19:30:48 <sipa> i was simplifying, sorry
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1257 2014-01-23 19:30:55 <lechuga_> also note the varint implementation for the size is not actually CVarInt
1258 2014-01-23 19:31:01 <lechuga_> mistake i amde recently
1259 2014-01-23 19:31:04 <lechuga_> made*
1260 2014-01-23 19:31:04 <sipa> i just mean that the length descriptors are part of the serialization of the vector
1261 2014-01-23 19:31:12 <chichov> okay, so they are
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1263 2014-01-23 19:32:11 <chichov> do you know in which class I have to look where the hash over the previous block header is made?
1264 2014-01-23 19:32:17 jps has joined
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1266 2014-01-23 19:35:48 <lechuga_> miners create the block header hash
1267 2014-01-23 19:36:06 <sipa> CBlockHeader has a GetHash() method
1268 2014-01-23 19:38:34 <chichov> yea, just where in the code can I see what the hash is made over?
1269 2014-01-23 19:39:25 <sipa> it's just Hash(Serialize(blockheader))
1270 2014-01-23 19:39:51 <chichov> where do you see that?
1271 2014-01-23 19:40:08 <sipa> i don't see that, i'm just telling you that it's so :)
1272 2014-01-23 19:40:11 <sipa> let me look at the code
1273 2014-01-23 19:40:52 <chichov> yea, that I know too from the wiki, but it's the code that I'm trying to understand
1274 2014-01-23 19:40:53 <sipa> uint256 CTransaction::GetHash() const { return SerializeHash(*this); }
1275 2014-01-23 19:41:20 <sipa> SerializeHash is defined in hash.h, and serializes the passed structure directly into the double-sha256 hasher
1276 2014-01-23 19:41:24 <sipa> and then returns the result
1277 2014-01-23 19:41:24 <chichov> ah yea, I see it
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1282 2014-01-23 19:43:52 <Diablo-D3> http://www.tigerdirect.com/bitcoin/
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1297 2014-01-23 20:16:49 <lechuga_> if i update a pull request absed on feedback
1298 2014-01-23 20:16:53 <lechuga_> based*
1299 2014-01-23 20:17:01 <lechuga_> should i only update it with incremental commits
1300 2014-01-23 20:17:08 <lechuga_> or squash all the changes back into the same commit
1301 2014-01-23 20:17:42 <lechuga_> unsure of preferred etiquette
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1304 2014-01-23 20:20:31 <sipa> lechuga_: in general we want clean commits before merging
1305 2014-01-23 20:20:43 <sipa> so you may be asked to rebase or reorganize your commits before merge
1306 2014-01-23 20:20:51 <sipa> for simple things, just update your existing commit
1307 2014-01-23 20:21:00 <lechuga_> ok
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1320 2014-01-23 20:50:09 <kiddouk> wumpus: there was already a bug report for Qt5.2.0: https://bugreports.qt-project.org/browse/QTIFW-443
1321 2014-01-23 20:51:12 <kiddouk> wumpus: None the less, I went the extra mile to have all includes using the <Package/IncludeFile> notation and having it compatible with Qt4.8 Qt5.02 and Qt5.2.0 (as soon as Qt release their 5.2.1)
1322 2014-01-23 20:52:42 <kiddouk> It compiles well on OSX (qt4.8 from brew/macport and qt5 with pkg_config). Will try on Linux. I may need some help to verify that on Windows if possible.
1323 2014-01-23 20:52:49 <cfields> wumpus: ping
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1325 2014-01-23 20:53:31 <kiddouk> This should help the project moving as Qt5 will increasingly take over 4.8 in the near future (and people still want to compile on osx)
1326 2014-01-23 20:53:52 <cfields> kiddouk: iirc the Package/Include is deprecated (or at least discouraged) with qt5
1327 2014-01-23 20:54:17 <cfields> i initially changed the headers to that format when i redid the buildsystem for qt5, but changed it back after running into portability issues
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1329 2014-01-23 20:55:30 <wumpus> cfields: pong
1330 2014-01-23 20:56:12 <kiddouk> cfields: ah :( I was convinced from the opposite
1331 2014-01-23 20:56:39 <cfields> kiddouk: as was I, which is why i started by moving em that way :)
1332 2014-01-23 20:56:43 <kiddouk> that Qt was encouraging PAckage/IncludeFile with Qt5 for a cleaner split since they tend to move files around
1333 2014-01-23 20:56:52 <cfields> kiddouk: i'm tracking down the doc that says that
1334 2014-01-23 20:57:03 <kiddouk> would be happy to read the reference :)
1335 2014-01-23 20:57:08 <cfields> wumpus: so, warren is driving me crazy to help out with the watch-only PR
1336 2014-01-23 20:57:25 <cfields> wumpus: mind pointing me to the issues that remain?
1337 2014-01-23 20:57:44 <wumpus> cfields: well the pull itself lists the issues
1338 2014-01-23 20:58:01 <wumpus> cfields: the main issue is that spendable and unspendable balance should be shown seperately
1339 2014-01-23 20:58:07 <wumpus> cfields: both in the GUI and RPC
1340 2014-01-23 20:58:08 <cfields> wumpus: sipa's concerns?
1341 2014-01-23 20:58:16 <cfields> ok
1342 2014-01-23 20:58:27 <wumpus> cfields: apart from that there are some small issues, I believe there is an address that doesn't work for some reason, and some rescan issues
1343 2014-01-23 20:58:27 drayah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1344 2014-01-23 20:58:46 <sipa> wumpus: that failed rescan may be due to an unrelated bug
1345 2014-01-23 20:58:57 <sipa> #3502
1346 2014-01-23 20:59:00 <wumpus> sipa: yes, could be
1347 2014-01-23 20:59:09 <cfields> wumpus: you ok with moving the ismine() into the enum everywhere? it's quite confusing seeing it as a bool in qt, and it sure seems like it would lead to trouble later if not already
1348 2014-01-23 20:59:15 <sipa> i don't see how a particular address would work differently than others
1349 2014-01-23 20:59:34 <cfields> sipa: i suppose i should be asking you ^^, as i believe that's what you were getting at in your comments?
1350 2014-01-23 20:59:35 <sipa> cfields: not everywhere in core
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1352 2014-01-23 20:59:45 <sipa> in the GUI code, i have no opinion
1353 2014-01-23 20:59:59 <wumpus> cfields: well I don't want to import the core headers everywhere, if not needed
1354 2014-01-23 21:00:28 <cfields> sipa: ok, isRelevantToMe() or w/e in core wherever it's not enum, then?
1355 2014-01-23 21:00:38 <cfields> wumpus: ah, ok
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1357 2014-01-23 21:00:51 <wumpus> cfields: but I suppose the GUI could have a similar type in walletmodel.h
1358 2014-01-23 21:00:57 <wumpus> if needed
1359 2014-01-23 21:01:08 <sipa> yes, i'm fine with renaming the cases where IsMine returning isminetype doesn't make sense to IsRelevantToMe()
1360 2014-01-23 21:01:09 andyo has joined
1361 2014-01-23 21:01:32 <sipa> although, IsMine(CTransaction) is different from IsFromMe...
1362 2014-01-23 21:01:33 <sipa> hmm
1363 2014-01-23 21:01:43 <cfields> kiddouk: i'm starting to remember now.. there's some qt tool that migrates your project from qt4 to qt5. i believe that tool is the one that moved from Package/Include to just Include, with a note saying that it was the best way forward
1364 2014-01-23 21:02:22 <wumpus> cfields: ah yes I remember again, too
1365 2014-01-23 21:02:23 <kiddouk> cfields: >_<
1366 2014-01-23 21:02:33 <cfields> sipa / wumpus: ok, thanks. Sorry for rehashing here, just trying to clarify was was said on that PR
1367 2014-01-23 21:02:51 <wumpus> cfields: no problem, better to ask then assume something which turns out to be wrong :)
1368 2014-01-23 21:02:54 <sipa> no worries, better be clear
1369 2014-01-23 21:02:57 <wumpus> right
1370 2014-01-23 21:03:21 <kiddouk> cfields: wumpus: ok then. I have to change my comment on the issue, and I have done a lot of work for nothing. But hey, I learntBitcoin's approach on Qt.
1371 2014-01-23 21:03:24 <kiddouk> :)
1372 2014-01-23 21:03:44 <cfields> kiddouk: please don't take my word for it, i have a terrible memory. I'm still trying to track down that doc.
1373 2014-01-23 21:03:47 <wumpus> http://qt-project.org/wiki/Transition_from_Qt_4.x_to_Qt5#905af05d895d3ccb3a8896086d22ff0f:: Fixing #include<> Headers
1374 2014-01-23 21:03:47 <wumpus> A Perl script “fixqt4headers.pl” exists in qtbase/bin/. that should be run on source code using Qt that corrects the #include<> directives for Qt components to also consider the module name.
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1376 2014-01-23 21:04:08 <kiddouk> cfields: when looking at Qt5.0 tutorial from the doc, they do #include <QObject>
1377 2014-01-23 21:04:09 <cfields> the only reason I said anything is because I did exactly what you did already, then got pissed when i realized it was all for nothing :)
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1379 2014-01-23 21:04:16 <kiddouk> so I believe that their doc is up to date.
1380 2014-01-23 21:04:33 <kiddouk> cfields: luckily I made a script for that. :)
1381 2014-01-23 21:04:53 <cfields> wumpus: yep, that's the one. thanks.
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1383 2014-01-23 21:05:27 <kiddouk> Ah. There was even a script. >_<
1384 2014-01-23 21:05:28 <kiddouk> :-)
1385 2014-01-23 21:05:29 <cfields> kiddouk: it worked fine for me and I was going to PR the change, but it broke some platform pretty badly for a reason I can't remember.
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1387 2014-01-23 21:06:23 <wumpus> yes the way from qt4 to qt5 seems to be #include <QtGui/QApplication> -> #include <QApplication>
1388 2014-01-23 21:06:29 <wumpus> I also remembered exactly the other way around
1389 2014-01-23 21:06:30 <kiddouk> Anyway. That's pretty kludgy from Qt's side I think. It's probably because they want to have their hands free to move files around (like QMessageBox that went from QtGui in 4.8 to QtWidget in 5.0)
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1391 2014-01-23 21:06:40 <cfields> maybe win32 which doesn't use pkgconfig. or maybe macports' wonky pc files. something like that.
1392 2014-01-23 21:06:47 <kiddouk> anyway .. everyone is now aligned
1393 2014-01-23 21:06:59 <cfields> kiddouk: agreed, it seems wasy more logical to me to include the package. seeme like a very odd move.
1394 2014-01-23 21:06:59 <wumpus> cfields: hah, indeed
1395 2014-01-23 21:07:04 <kiddouk> I will go change my .pc file (one more time) and update my comment in Qt's JIRA.
1396 2014-01-23 21:07:13 <wumpus> kiddouk also stumbled on the 'wonky pc files' for mac today
1397 2014-01-23 21:07:25 <cfields> oh, heh
1398 2014-01-23 21:07:52 <cfields> fyi, macports _heavily_ patches the shipped qt files
1399 2014-01-23 21:08:10 <kiddouk> I use brew who also happen to patch the files :)
1400 2014-01-23 21:08:16 <kiddouk> with a bottle.
1401 2014-01-23 21:08:20 <cfields> last I looked there wasn't a qt5 build, but they really mangle the qt4 ones.
1402 2014-01-23 21:08:41 <cfields> though, qt4 was very very unfriendly to builders. I have a feeling qt5 won't need nearly that much hackery
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1404 2014-01-23 21:09:05 <kiddouk> well ... we all have learned that they are not strict at all on the includes ... ahahhaha :)
1405 2014-01-23 21:09:12 <kiddouk> for Qt5 ;)
1406 2014-01-23 21:09:44 <cfields> ok, off to take a look at the watchonly stuff. thanks guys
1407 2014-01-23 21:10:07 <wumpus> ok good luck cfields
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1409 2014-01-23 21:10:40 <cfields> kiddouk: feel free to ping me for this kind of stuff, it's nothing but wasted time hacking on it. And since i've already wasted plenty of mine, there's no need for you waste yours :)
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1411 2014-01-23 21:12:14 <kiddouk> wumpus: cfields : for reference => https://bugreports.qt-project.org/browse/QTIFW-443
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1413 2014-01-23 21:13:18 <cfields> actually, that's a lie. first i'm going to go do my duty and buy some toys at tigerdirect. THEN hacking on watchonly :)
1414 2014-01-23 21:14:06 <cfields> kiddouk: is that your bug?
1415 2014-01-23 21:14:12 <kiddouk> cfields: don't worry :) Wanted to play with bitcoin source code anyway.. wasting a day on it is actually not that bad.
1416 2014-01-23 21:14:38 <kiddouk> cfields: yup. On 5.2.0, you just can't compile with OSX using pkgconfig.
1417 2014-01-23 21:14:51 <cfields> kiddouk: fyi, i verified that it builds against the 5.1 osx sdk. So if it's really broken in 5.2, it's a regression there.
1418 2014-01-23 21:15:41 <kiddouk> I verified too myself. 5.2.0 on Qt's side is not helping pkgconfig to include the good path nor to tell LLVM to use properly a package.
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1420 2014-01-23 21:16:06 <kiddouk> Anyway, there is an issue raised, I subscribed to it by email too to see the progress and will report back.
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1422 2014-01-23 21:17:18 <cfields> ok
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1425 2014-01-23 21:17:31 <kiddouk> wumpus: any specific help you need on any issue in bitcoin repo at the moment, or should I just browse around ? :)
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1486 2014-01-23 22:22:35 <Goonie> saivann: ping
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1502 2014-01-23 22:42:29 <sipa> phantomcircuit: can you please still have a look at removing vtxPrev ?
1503 2014-01-23 22:43:51 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah i think doing it w/o fixing IsConfirmed is the right way to do it
1504 2014-01-23 22:44:22 <sipa> ack
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1525 2014-01-23 23:12:54 <EasyAt> petertodd: In the github for the bip37 proposal I noticed the write up at the bottom is trailing where it should give the false positive rate.  I calced it at ~5%. I'm curious why you chose such a low number
1526 2014-01-23 23:13:36 <petertodd> EasyAt: chose?
1527 2014-01-23 23:13:42 <petertodd> I didn't write bip37
1528 2014-01-23 23:13:55 <EasyAt> Oh, hah. It was Hearn
1529 2014-01-23 23:14:07 <EasyAt> excuse me
1530 2014-01-23 23:14:24 <petertodd> yeah, real-world is actually way less than 5%, at least in how android bitcoin client and multibit(?) implement it
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1536 2014-01-23 23:23:12 <chichov> hm, what fields precisely are used in the transaction signature?
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1539 2014-01-23 23:24:01 <chichov> no matter how long I stare at the code, I cannot seem to find it
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1541 2014-01-23 23:25:58 <gavinandresen> chichov: see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIG
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1543 2014-01-23 23:26:24 <EasyAt> "The entire transaction's outputs, inputs, and script (from the most recently-executed OP_CODESEPARATOR to the end) are hashed. The signature used by OP_CHECKSIG must be a valid signature for this hash and public key. If it is, 1 is returned, 0 otherwise."
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1549 2014-01-23 23:29:20 <chichov> but the script includes the signature, so what part of it exactly is included?
1550 2014-01-23 23:30:05 <chichov> eh, I'll re-read it a couple of times, then maybe it'll sink in
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1552 2014-01-23 23:32:55 <EasyAt> chichov: Have you looked at this? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script#Standard_Transaction_to_Bitcoin_address_.28pay-to-pubkey-hash.29
1553 2014-01-23 23:33:06 <lechuga_> chichov: this isnt an authoratative source but it might help: https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib/blob/master/src/transaction.js
1554 2014-01-23 23:33:10 <lechuga_> grep for 'hashTransactionForSignature'
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1557 2014-01-23 23:33:23 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Quick question in regards to vardiff, if I submit higher difficulty shares, does it not mean that my mining client is submitting these shares slower- where as I could be submitting difficulty one shares more frequently... meaning I could essentially find blocks fasters?
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1560 2014-01-23 23:34:29 <owowo> !diff
1561 2014-01-23 23:34:29 <gribble> 1.7895469510532405E9
1562 2014-01-23 23:34:36 <Krellan_> there is no difference
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1564 2014-01-23 23:34:57 <Krellan_> if you find a block then it will be more than enough to meet the difficulty setting of your mining pool, and it WILL get submitted.
1565 2014-01-23 23:36:08 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Krellan, but I'm wondering though... to me it seems like higher difficulty shares are more like bulk submits of difficulty 1 shares
1566 2014-01-23 23:36:19 <Krellan_> it actually all works out the same whether you submit 100 diff-1 shares to the pool, or 1 diff-100 share to the pool, same payout.
1567 2014-01-23 23:36:43 <Krellan_> the pool just balances it out to prevent getting spammed with diff-1 shares all the time.
1568 2014-01-23 23:36:43 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|i dont care about payout
1569 2014-01-23 23:36:55 <EasyAt> Neozonz|Discx2: Higher diff shares for your pool just increase variance
1570 2014-01-23 23:36:58 <Krellan_> if you don't care about payout then assign your miners to my address :)
1571 2014-01-23 23:37:01 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|i'm talking about latency to block
1572 2014-01-23 23:37:24 qwertyoruiop has joined
1573 2014-01-23 23:37:25 goodbtc has joined
1574 2014-01-23 23:37:43 <goodbtc> http://i.imgur.com/ndkH76E.jpg this?
1575 2014-01-23 23:37:43 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|for example rig1 mines at diff 1          rig 2 mines at diff 3000
1576 2014-01-23 23:37:45 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|rig 1 submits shares every second
1577 2014-01-23 23:37:52 <EasyAt> Neozonz|Discx2: Variance
1578 2014-01-23 23:37:52 <Krellan_> rig1 will spam your pool server
1579 2014-01-23 23:37:53 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|rig 2 submits shares every 4 hours
1580 2014-01-23 23:37:57 <Krellan_> rig2 will send much less often
1581 2014-01-23 23:37:58 <EasyAt> Yes, and bandwidth
1582 2014-01-23 23:38:12 <Krellan_> it all works out the same in the end, they average out
1583 2014-01-23 23:38:19 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|but interms of orphans and what not
1584 2014-01-23 23:38:32 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|is it not possible that rig1 blocks faster then rig2
1585 2014-01-23 23:38:35 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|due to submitting quicker?
1586 2014-01-23 23:38:49 <Krellan_> if you actually find a block it will immediately meet the criteria and be submitted to server instantly
1587 2014-01-23 23:38:52 <chichov> thanks a lot, I'll dive into that
1588 2014-01-23 23:39:06 <Krellan_> since a block is diff 1.7 billion
1589 2014-01-23 23:39:07 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Yes Krellan I understand that
1590 2014-01-23 23:39:19 DTEG_ is now known as DTEG
1591 2014-01-23 23:39:19 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|but what I'm talking about is rig 2 is submitting results every 4 hours
1592 2014-01-23 23:39:24 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|rig 1 is submitting them every milisecond
1593 2014-01-23 23:39:44 <EasyAt> Neozonz|Discx2:Yes, but the shares don't mean as much.  Same expectde value man
1594 2014-01-23 23:39:44 <Krellan_> most pools will automatically tune themselves
1595 2014-01-23 23:39:44 <goodbtc> anyone with same problem above and https://wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/client.php ?
1596 2014-01-23 23:39:47 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|they are both the same hash rates
1597 2014-01-23 23:39:47 <EasyAt> You're just spamming their servers
1598 2014-01-23 23:39:48 <Krellan_> so that you submit X shares per second
1599 2014-01-23 23:40:05 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|but each share i submit it checked against upstream for block
1600 2014-01-23 23:40:07 <Krellan_> so if you are slow miner they will be diff-1 but if you are fast they will be diff-100 or so.
1601 2014-01-23 23:40:44 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz| both rig 1 and rig 2 are the same speed
1602 2014-01-23 23:40:44 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|but both have static difficulties
1603 2014-01-23 23:40:44 <Krellan_> a share and a block are exactly the same thing already. a share is merely an inferior block that didn't meet the difficulty requirements.
1604 2014-01-23 23:40:44 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|rig 1 at diff 1
1605 2014-01-23 23:40:46 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|rig 2 at 3000
1606 2014-01-23 23:40:57 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Krellan, i understand that
1607 2014-01-23 23:41:05 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|so does it not mean rig 1 in theory blocks faster
1608 2014-01-23 23:41:16 <Krellan_> then i don't understand your question - as for latency, you could slow down your connection by spamming the server too much, but that's about it.
1609 2014-01-23 23:41:17 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|as it is submitting shares to be checked more frequently!
1610 2014-01-23 23:41:23 <EasyAt> Neozonz|Discx It makes shares faster. NOT BLOCKS
1611 2014-01-23 23:41:38 <Krellan_> if you spam your pool server, they probably won't like you.
1612 2014-01-23 23:41:38 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|each share is a possible block
1613 2014-01-23 23:41:38 <EasyAt> You are just spamming the netowrk, same expected value
1614 2014-01-23 23:41:50 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|each share is a key to open a door
1615 2014-01-23 23:41:51 <Krellan_> It will increase their processing workload, they have to validate each share you submit, and thus their latency.
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1617 2014-01-23 23:42:25 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|god damn it
1618 2014-01-23 23:42:35 <EasyAt> Neozonz|Discx2: You are having  amisunerstanding on mining and how pools calculate payout amounts
1619 2014-01-23 23:42:49 mynameis has joined
1620 2014-01-23 23:42:49 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|No I'm not
1621 2014-01-23 23:43:03 <Krellan_> so don't submit shares faster than they expect. The only reason to submit shares anyway, since they are useless for blocks, is to show the pool that you're genuinely doing the work of mining and thus should get credit for it in their payouts.
1622 2014-01-23 23:43:03 <EasyAt> Yep
1623 2014-01-23 23:43:05 <Krellan_> A share is a failed block.  Useless, except for this accounting.
1624 2014-01-23 23:43:30 * goodbtc points @ RPC masters
1625 2014-01-23 23:43:30 <EasyAt> Well, usually
1626 2014-01-23 23:43:30 <Krellan_> It's immediately obvious if a share is a good block or not.
1627 2014-01-23 23:43:53 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Krellan, oh?
1628 2014-01-23 23:43:53 <EasyAt> A share can be a block, but usually it's a proof of work to your pool
1629 2014-01-23 23:44:05 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|is it not checked by the pool though?
1630 2014-01-23 23:44:05 <Krellan_> So, give good blocks immediately to the server, and give only enough failed blocks to let the pool know that you're still there and still mining.
1631 2014-01-23 23:44:05 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|each share is verified by the pool correct?
1632 2014-01-23 23:44:20 <EasyAt> Yes
1633 2014-01-23 23:44:20 <Krellan_> a share is a hunk of dirt.  It might have a gold nugget in it, or not.
1634 2014-01-23 23:44:20 <goodbtc> #bitcoin-mining ?
1635 2014-01-23 23:44:20 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|to see if it is a block correct?
1636 2014-01-23 23:44:34 <EasyAt> Neozonz|Discx2: If a share is > difficulty of the netowrk you know before the pool does
1637 2014-01-23 23:44:55 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|EasyAt, ah, thank you that explains it
1638 2014-01-23 23:45:05 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|I was under the impression that even that check is done by the pool
1639 2014-01-23 23:45:26 <Krellan_> Yes, you know how good your shares are (how shiny the dirt is) as soon as you mine it.
1640 2014-01-23 23:45:26 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|but the mining client itself verifies that correct?
1641 2014-01-23 23:45:26 <EasyAt> A share is a block. If it is < difficulty of the network you still submit it to prove how much work you've done to your pool
1642 2014-01-23 23:45:26 <EasyAt> It has nothing to do with the expected value of finding a block
1643 2014-01-23 23:45:28 <Krellan_> EasyAt: Correct.
1644 2014-01-23 23:45:47 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz| < difficulty of the network  << this check is done by the rig correct?
1645 2014-01-23 23:45:47 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|or by the pool
1646 2014-01-23 23:45:52 <Krellan_> Both.
1647 2014-01-23 23:46:07 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|ah ok
1648 2014-01-23 23:46:07 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|now i see
1649 2014-01-23 23:46:19 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|i was under the impression the pool only checks that
1650 2014-01-23 23:46:37 <sipa> it's usually done by the hardware, by the software, by the pool, and by the pool's bitcoind
1651 2014-01-23 23:46:57 <Krellan_> each share has a hash, the hash determines the difficulty that it has achieved
1652 2014-01-23 23:46:57 <sipa> the hardware only checks whether the highest 32 bits are 0
1653 2014-01-23 23:47:16 <sipa> the mining software compares it with the pool's share difficulty
1654 2014-01-23 23:47:16 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1655 2014-01-23 23:47:16 <Krellan_> so your miner knows how good the share is, as soon as it happens. like if you dig up a gold nugget, you know it instantly, and now you want to show it to the whole town (upload it to your pool) ASAP.
1656 2014-01-23 23:47:16 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|sipa, thank you, hard to find information like this-
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1658 2014-01-23 23:47:25 <sipa> the pool itself verifies that, and if it passes the full difficulty, it goes to bitcoind, which again verifies it
1659 2014-01-23 23:47:42 <sipa> in short: checking is cheap
1660 2014-01-23 23:48:31 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Nobody has written anyone where that the client checks the hash, so I was always under the impression the pool did all checking
1661 2014-01-23 23:48:31 <Krellan_> yes, it would be nice if there was a guide to it all
1662 2014-01-23 23:48:43 <Krellan_> I've seen some good descriptions but never the whole picture.
1663 2014-01-23 23:48:43 <sipa> if the hardware or mining software didn't check it, you would be submitting every attempted hash...
1664 2014-01-23 23:48:53 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|yes
1665 2014-01-23 23:49:00 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|That's why I was fighting with Krellan regarding the latency to block :P
1666 2014-01-23 23:49:13 wavelet has joined
1667 2014-01-23 23:49:40 <EasyAt> But, that's a waste so we don't do it.  But, you could in theory expect the pool to verify and just spam them with millions of low diff blocks a second
1668 2014-01-23 23:49:40 <goodbtc> anyone managed to make this client work?  https://wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/client.php ?
1669 2014-01-23 23:50:08 <EasyAt> Most pools wouldn't allow it
1670 2014-01-23 23:50:08 ielo has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1671 2014-01-23 23:52:33 <EasyAt> Anyways, I'm off. checkout stochastic processes
1672 2014-01-23 23:52:44 * goodbtc pokes gmaxwell 
1673 2014-01-23 23:53:31 <goodbtc> what do you think this error is trying to say? http://i.imgur.com/ndkH76E.jpg
1674 2014-01-23 23:54:18 <sipa> goodbtc: talk to andytoshi
1675 2014-01-23 23:54:20 <gmaxwell> goodbtc: you need to set an rpcuser and rpcpassword in your configuration and don't use any excessively weird characters in it.
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1678 2014-01-23 23:54:26 <goodbtc> he said I sould get a better OS, like linux
1679 2014-01-23 23:54:59 wild_bill has joined
1680 2014-01-23 23:56:48 <goodbtc> i have set a rpcuser and rpcpassword again, same result
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