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  65 2014-01-25 01:05:59 <shesek> I'm working on a wallet client and implementing BIP38. I was thinking that it might be a good idea to _not_ identify wrong passphrases and just let different passphrases to end up as different valid private keys. this would give users some plausible deniability in case of blackmail - they could setup a wallet with a different passphrase and a small amount of coins, and claim that this is their main wallet (somewhat similar to truecryp
  66 2014-01-25 01:05:59 <shesek> t hidden volumes)
  67 2014-01-25 01:06:14 <shesek> basically, BIP38 without the checksum/salt
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  69 2014-01-25 01:06:44 <shesek> do you think its a good idea?
  70 2014-01-25 01:07:03 <shesek> I'm not sure its worth being incompatible with any other BIP38 implementation
  71 2014-01-25 01:07:19 <jcorgan> there was a couple posts about that idea at the tail end of the "Base58 Encoded Wallet" thread
  72 2014-01-25 01:07:35 <jcorgan> (exact name not positive)
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  76 2014-01-25 01:09:01 <jcorgan> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=258678.msg4444062#msg4444062
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  78 2014-01-25 01:09:22 <shesek> its quite easy to notice the passphrase is wrong if you end up on a wallet with no funds, but it could be problematic if you're mistyping the passphrase when you're getting the address to be paid to
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  80 2014-01-25 01:10:52 <shesek> jcorgan, interesting, thanks for the link
  81 2014-01-25 01:11:49 <jcorgan> i'm nearly done with my bip32utils package, one thing to add is importing and exporting that proposal format
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  83 2014-01-25 01:12:40 <gmaxwell> I don't think implementing BIP38 at all is a good idea.  :-/
  84 2014-01-25 01:12:43 <jcorgan> done == ready to publish the first incomplete, experimental, buggy version of it
  85 2014-01-25 01:13:17 <shesek> gmaxwell, how so?
  86 2014-01-25 01:14:23 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: has a bip # been reserved for the alternative proposal?
  87 2014-01-25 01:15:27 <gmaxwell> shesek: because BIP38 is kind of a crappy design. Due to an administrative snafu it was posted with basically no third party review at all.
  88 2014-01-25 01:15:46 mattolson has joined
  89 2014-01-25 01:16:44 <shesek> can you elaborate more? or perhaps link me to a relevant discussion?
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  94 2014-01-25 01:18:17 <gmaxwell> shesek: I expect this proposal https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=258678.0  will ultimately replace it.
  95 2014-01-25 01:20:27 <shesek> its not just about that though, this also means root keys and hd wallets completely replacing one time keys
  96 2014-01-25 01:20:39 Internet13 has joined
  97 2014-01-25 01:20:40 <shesek> which might be a good thing, but I'm not sure that'll happen anytime soon :-\
  98 2014-01-25 01:20:42 <gmaxwell> shesek: you can always just use the first key of a hd wallet.
  99 2014-01-25 01:21:14 <gmaxwell> shesek: whats to elaborate on?  Mike Caldwell wrote up a spec and sent it to bitcoin-development without subscribing but while copying genjix. Then later asked for a BIP number to be assigned, genjix gave him a number without adding it to the BIP list. I don't think anyone knew about it until one of the paper wallet sites found it and implemented it. The design has a bunch of kinda awkward shortcomings (for one— it only gives you a ...
 100 2014-01-25 01:21:20 <gmaxwell> ... single key, the crypto is weaker than it could be, the KDF isn't delegatable, and a bunch of other ugly nits that would have been fixed if a single extra person ever laid their eyes on it before it got deployed)
 101 2014-01-25 01:21:58 Ursium has joined
 102 2014-01-25 01:22:28 <jcorgan> tell us how you really feel :)
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 105 2014-01-25 01:25:10 <shesek> I see. too bad it started getting wide spread use despite that :-\
 106 2014-01-25 01:25:13 <gmaxwell> Well I feel that the process completely failed and that we'd be better off without a BIP process if thats whats going to happen. My irritation is somewhat amplified by the fact that I managed to make myself look like a clown about it because Mike Caldwell had several times previously simply added BIPs for never discussed wonky changes, and I assumed he'd just done it again with BIP38 and so once I found it I deleted it and got pitchforked.
 107 2014-01-25 01:25:40 <gmaxwell> (because it had been deployed in a couple places)
 108 2014-01-25 01:25:52 <gmaxwell> (and because Mike was actually innocent of misbehavior :) )
 109 2014-01-25 01:27:04 Ursium has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 110 2014-01-25 01:27:22 <sipa> and so were you
 111 2014-01-25 01:27:27 <sipa> and i think that got cleared up
 112 2014-01-25 01:28:10 <shesek> you don't feel using the specs for root keys for a single derivation is a bit cumbersome?
 113 2014-01-25 01:28:36 <shesek> thought, on the other hand, it might be worse to have different standards for root and single keys. they're not really that different
 114 2014-01-25 01:28:46 Ursium_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 115 2014-01-25 01:28:50 <gmaxwell> shesek: I don't actually think it takes more code to implement (e.g. if you're just going to pull of a single key).
 116 2014-01-25 01:29:25 <shesek> I guess I could just use the encoding/encryption and use the master as the key itself, without deriving anything
 117 2014-01-25 01:30:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: Yea, well, its still being more widely deployed, so I don't think it's cleared up :).
 118 2014-01-25 01:30:37 <shesek> or I could just implement an hd wallet instead of being lazy and making something that encourages address reuse
 119 2014-01-25 01:30:58 <shesek> ... but it'll take much longer :-\
 120 2014-01-25 01:31:20 <gmaxwell> shesek: well at least the encrypted encoding shouldn't be a barrier to you implementing hdwallets in the future. :P
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 122 2014-01-25 01:32:29 <shesek> if I do start with a single key and upgrade in the future, its a really bad idea to use the master directly
 123 2014-01-25 01:32:50 <shesek> I should probably just derive a single key to make the upgrade possible without a serious privacy leak
 124 2014-01-25 01:33:05 sacrelege has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 125 2014-01-25 01:34:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: if nobody is going to publish the alternative, and promote it, nobody will use it
 126 2014-01-25 01:34:19 <jcorgan> teaser: http://pastebin.com/xhHrNtUK
 127 2014-01-25 01:34:45 <sipa> gmaxwell: i say it's cleared up in that mike doesn't consider you responsible for the misunderstanding or the other way aroun
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 129 2014-01-25 01:36:03 <shesek> I'm working on a small web wallet with a "something I have" mode (private key in url hash), "something I know" mode (brainwallet - yeah, I know a lot of people aren't a fan of those) and "something I know and something I have" (encrypted private key in hash)
 130 2014-01-25 01:36:29 <sipa> gmaxwell: i hear you often say: "this will likely replace it", with a link to a forum post
 131 2014-01-25 01:36:45 <shesek> with a security model similar to that of bitrated - nothing stored in the server, everything in the url, digitally signed files and a verification that it matches the code on github
 132 2014-01-25 01:36:51 <sipa> gmaxwell: nothing will happen (including more feedback from a wider audience) as long as it stays a forum post
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 135 2014-01-25 01:37:10 <jcorgan> i hope to add an independent implementation for that
 136 2014-01-25 01:37:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: it's also been on bitcoin-development. Not sure what else I can do, I gave it some extensive review and pulled some other people to comment on it successfully.
 137 2014-01-25 01:38:01 mattolson has quit (Quit: Sleeping)
 138 2014-01-25 01:38:40 <gmaxwell> (And to be honest, I'm unconvinced about the use case in general, though I think the HD wallet based one is now strictly superior to BIP38)
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 143 2014-01-25 01:41:29 <porquilho> hey gmaxwell
 144 2014-01-25 01:41:30 mattolson has joined
 145 2014-01-25 01:41:34 <porquilho> remove the ban of #bitcoin
 146 2014-01-25 01:41:51 <porquilho> You can keep the ban of #bitcoin-pricetalk
 147 2014-01-25 01:41:56 <porquilho> thats enough for you
 148 2014-01-25 01:42:15 <sipa> gmaxwell: someone will have to turn it into a BIP
 149 2014-01-25 01:42:18 <porquilho> you can be happy that at least you admined a ban on one channel
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 152 2014-01-25 01:42:32 <porquilho> gmaxwell, remove ban on #bitcoin
 153 2014-01-25 01:42:43 <gmaxwell> porquilho: you are banned on #bitcoin because you were flooding ascii art image of pigs.
 154 2014-01-25 01:42:46 <porquilho> I am also a contributor with code to bitcoin community
 155 2014-01-25 01:42:54 <porquilho> NO ONE WAS TALKING
 156 2014-01-25 01:43:02 <porquilho> thats why I put a ascii art of a doge
 157 2014-01-25 01:43:07 <sipa> this is not the place to discuss this
 158 2014-01-25 01:43:08 <porquilho> wtf is wrong with you
 159 2014-01-25 01:43:14 <lechuga_> ok then
 160 2014-01-25 01:43:21 <jcorgan> inb4 more banning
 161 2014-01-25 01:44:20 <sipa> gmaxwell: if all people who want some solution are happy with BIP38, and all others don't care, ...
 162 2014-01-25 01:44:50 <gmaxwell> meh, they'd be equally happy with ROT13.
 163 2014-01-25 01:44:59 <porquilho> gmaxwell on om
 164 2014-01-25 01:44:59 <porquilho> pm
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 168 2014-01-25 01:46:02 <sipa> gmaxwell: that's why someone needs to promote it
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 170 2014-01-25 01:47:11 <jcorgan> sipa: i'm kinda late to this party, but what sort of promotion are you suggesting?
 171 2014-01-25 01:48:15 <sipa> there's been enough initial discussion... assign a BIP number, write it, post to the mailing list, ...
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 234 2014-01-25 02:29:16 <Apocalyptic> sipa, would you happen to have a Primecoin node IP ?
 235 2014-01-25 02:29:27 yubrew has joined
 236 2014-01-25 02:29:58 <sipa> i know nothing about primecoin
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 240 2014-01-25 02:32:15 <Apocalyptic> github shows you did some commits
 241 2014-01-25 02:32:27 <Apocalyptic> so I hoped you may be running a node
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 243 2014-01-25 02:33:06 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
 244 2014-01-25 02:33:24 <sipa> ... primecoin copied bitcoin's source code
 245 2014-01-25 02:33:29 MaterialDefender has joined
 246 2014-01-25 02:33:29 <sipa> so i have commits in it, yes
 247 2014-01-25 02:33:47 cysm has joined
 248 2014-01-25 02:34:16 <Apocalyptic> i know it's a bitcoin fork
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 250 2014-01-25 02:34:43 <sipa> there is your answer
 251 2014-01-25 02:35:09 <Apocalyptic> i thought you made specific commits to xpm, not talking about inherited ones from bitcoin
 252 2014-01-25 02:35:15 <sipa> nope
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 255 2014-01-25 02:38:28 <MaterialDefender> Hey, I'm trying to connect my php webserver to a remote wallet via RPC and I'm either having it give me an internal error, or it throws a parse error.  Not sure what I'm doing wrong, anybody have any suggestions?
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 260 2014-01-25 02:42:27 <lechuga_> pastebin your command and the error
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 278 2014-01-25 02:59:39 <Pendrag0n> anyone here work on bitcoind?
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 280 2014-01-25 02:59:54 <Pendrag0n> the linux daemon
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 282 2014-01-25 03:00:33 <sipa> yes
 283 2014-01-25 03:00:58 <Pendrag0n> I found 2 security holes in it, well flaws in it's design pattern
 284 2014-01-25 03:01:17 * Apocalyptic takes some popcorn
 285 2014-01-25 03:01:28 * Diablo-D3 eats some of Apocalyptic's popcorn
 286 2014-01-25 03:01:37 <Apocalyptic> now to tell Pendrag0n
 287 2014-01-25 03:01:40 <Apocalyptic> *do
 288 2014-01-25 03:02:05 <sipa> heh, i'm sure there are many design flaws in the codebase
 289 2014-01-25 03:02:20 <Pendrag0n> hang on, I am not the greatest at explaining things, so I drew up 3 UML diagrams, to explain the security issues
 290 2014-01-25 03:02:22 justanotheruser has joined
 291 2014-01-25 03:02:27 <Pendrag0n> gotta find the link, I put them on github
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 293 2014-01-25 03:02:56 <Apocalyptic> sipa, i'm more interested about these security holes
 294 2014-01-25 03:03:05 <Pendrag0n> https://github.com/PyTis/btcdm  There, scroll down to see the 2 issues explained, click on the images so you can zoom in
 295 2014-01-25 03:03:30 <Pendrag0n> the security issues are for when you want two users, with two seperate addresses on the same server.
 296 2014-01-25 03:03:40 <Pendrag0n> like a web-host of ecommerce stores
 297 2014-01-25 03:03:49 <Apocalyptic> ok, so the single user/pass issue is an non-issue at all
 298 2014-01-25 03:04:04 <Apocalyptic> you can add an authentication wrapper if you want to manage a set of credentials
 299 2014-01-25 03:04:10 <Apocalyptic> that's not bitcoind's business
 300 2014-01-25 03:04:13 IGHOR has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 301 2014-01-25 03:04:23 <Pendrag0n> the other is memory space
 302 2014-01-25 03:04:23 <sipa> also, you can encrypt the wallet if you're worried about other processes reading the memory
 303 2014-01-25 03:04:29 <sipa> and only unlock them when necessary
 304 2014-01-25 03:04:42 <sipa> that is not an authentication mechanism though
 305 2014-01-25 03:04:58 <Pendrag0n> if each user runs bitcoind on different ports, for each user, a different instance of bitcoind, it appears that the bitcoind daemon has access to the memory space of other bitcoind daemons
 306 2014-01-25 03:05:03 IGHOR has joined
 307 2014-01-25 03:05:22 <sipa> heh?
 308 2014-01-25 03:05:53 <Pendrag0n> sipa: there is only 1 wallet though, for the bitcoind daemon, so how would you permit one user to manage funds within their address(s) and another do the same thing, without them being able to switch which wallet address is theirs.
 309 2014-01-25 03:06:08 f1ay has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 310 2014-01-25 03:06:13 <Apocalyptic> wtf am I reading...
 311 2014-01-25 03:06:17 <sipa> you're talking about running multiple bitcoind's
 312 2014-01-25 03:06:22 <sipa> they must have separate wallets
 313 2014-01-25 03:06:34 <Diablo-D3> Pendrag0n: bitcoind is not a sytem wide daemon.
 314 2014-01-25 03:06:35 <Apocalyptic> separate datadir's even
 315 2014-01-25 03:06:42 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 316 2014-01-25 03:07:08 <Pendrag0n> I should have found this room before I started into thinking of a solution, to make sure this is indeed an issue
 317 2014-01-25 03:07:18 <Diablo-D3> Pendrag0n: you cannot run bitcoind multiple times on the same machine unless you jump through hoops
 318 2014-01-25 03:07:34 <Pendrag0n> first, lets define the problem, as a web host, we have several clients running oscommerce sites, accepting bitcoins
 319 2014-01-25 03:07:35 <Diablo-D3> Pendrag0n: bitcoind is a headless bitcoin client, not an actual daemon
 320 2014-01-25 03:07:57 <Pendrag0n> per what Diablo-D3 just said, you can't run multiple instances.
 321 2014-01-25 03:08:02 <sipa> you can
 322 2014-01-25 03:08:06 YesItsArcher has joined
 323 2014-01-25 03:08:10 <Diablo-D3> you can, you just need to jump through hoops
 324 2014-01-25 03:08:11 <sipa> but it's not trivial, and not really intended
 325 2014-01-25 03:08:18 <Diablo-D3> you should be considering multiple virtual machines instead
 326 2014-01-25 03:08:20 <Pendrag0n> then sipa and Diablo-3 should debate it, and let me know ;-p
 327 2014-01-25 03:08:42 <lechuga_> do they need their own nodes to accept bitcoins?
 328 2014-01-25 03:08:48 <Apocalyptic> <Pendrag0n> first, lets define the problem, as a web host, we have several clients running oscommerce sites, accepting bitcoins // why would every site need a dedicated deamon
 329 2014-01-25 03:08:50 <Pendrag0n> and the bitcoind configuration for it's JSON RPC has but one JSONRPC username and password, leaving no way to know which store/client is which
 330 2014-01-25 03:09:00 <gmaxwell> you set two settings, -port and -rpcport ... thats all. thats all you have to do.
 331 2014-01-25 03:09:01 <lianj> Pendrag0n: thought of using payment processor instead of doing it yourself?
 332 2014-01-25 03:09:07 <sipa> Pendrag0n: if you have several bitcoind's, they will have different username and passwords too
 333 2014-01-25 03:09:13 <Apocalyptic> it's like someone running a dedicated web server on a shared hosting machine
 334 2014-01-25 03:09:16 <gmaxwell> (plus the data directory, of course)
 335 2014-01-25 03:09:16 <Diablo-D3> yeah what sipa said
 336 2014-01-25 03:09:35 <sipa> also, don't run a money accepting service on a shared system, that's asking for trouble in the first place
 337 2014-01-25 03:09:50 <Apocalyptic> if they want to run daemon they have to go for a VPS or a dedicated server, where some level of isolation exists
 338 2014-01-25 03:09:54 <Pendrag0n> it shouldn't, but how if all of the stores are using bitcoind jsonrpc with the same username and password could I keep them sepeated?
 339 2014-01-25 03:09:55 <lianj> and connecting to it remotely via rpc too
 340 2014-01-25 03:09:55 <lechuga_> or you could put a node.js proxy layer inbetween your customers and a single node
 341 2014-01-25 03:10:00 <lechuga_> if u really want to manage it yourself
 342 2014-01-25 03:10:11 <lechuga_> and you implement the acl
 343 2014-01-25 03:10:21 sipa has left ()
 344 2014-01-25 03:10:26 <Diablo-D3> Pendrag0n: are you asking can you have multiple bitcoind instances all using the same jsonrpc login? yes. would you want to? no.
 345 2014-01-25 03:10:54 <Diablo-D3> Pendrag0n: why would you do multiple e-commerce sites on shared hosting anyhow? thats just asking for trouble
 346 2014-01-25 03:10:58 <Pendrag0n> why not just offer to my clients a bitcoind mediator program that handles all of that for me, I don't have to do anything, the sites just use their own seperate jsonrpc usernames and passwords, and that is how I, or the service really, diferenciates the individual clients, and knows which address is which
 347 2014-01-25 03:10:58 <Apocalyptic> ^
 348 2014-01-25 03:11:08 <Diablo-D3> Pendrag0n: I suggest you step back, talk to a few security experts, talk to a lawyer, and then try again
 349 2014-01-25 03:11:15 justanotheruser has joined
 350 2014-01-25 03:11:21 <Apocalyptic> shared hosting is not for tailored IT needs
 351 2014-01-25 03:11:30 n0n0 has joined
 352 2014-01-25 03:11:30 <Apocalyptic> and custom daemons
 353 2014-01-25 03:11:34 <Pendrag0n> Diablo-D3: I never said about shared hosting.  I have a webhosting company, we run many clients from the same boxes, some boxes have 100 sites on them
 354 2014-01-25 03:11:48 <Apocalyptic> that's exactly shared hosting
 355 2014-01-25 03:11:51 <Diablo-D3> Pendrag0n: thats shared hosting unless you really mean 100s of vms.
 356 2014-01-25 03:12:11 <Pendrag0n> actually, it is 100s' of chgroot jails, but never the less.
 357 2014-01-25 03:12:19 <Diablo-D3> chroot is not a security feature
 358 2014-01-25 03:12:23 Gues_____ has joined
 359 2014-01-25 03:12:25 <Diablo-D3> if you're going to do that, use kvm instead.
 360 2014-01-25 03:12:28 <lianj> im sure he said lxc
 361 2014-01-25 03:12:42 <Pendrag0n> I wanted to come up with a secure way of allowing them to accept bitcoin in their commerce setups
 362 2014-01-25 03:12:56 <Apocalyptic> coinbase, bitpay...
 363 2014-01-25 03:13:04 <lechuga_> you could use a 3rd party processor or design your own
 364 2014-01-25 03:13:07 <Diablo-D3> Pendrag0n: thats easy: stop using chroots, use actual virtual machines, and stop trying to cheap out on IP leasing from your upstream.
 365 2014-01-25 03:13:12 <Apocalyptic> it would be even so much easier for them than doing it on their own
 366 2014-01-25 03:13:14 <lianj> yea, tell them to use a payment processor or develop one yourself but that takes time
 367 2014-01-25 03:13:15 <Diablo-D3> or yes, use a third party processor
 368 2014-01-25 03:13:20 <Diablo-D3> I highly suggest a third party processor
 369 2014-01-25 03:13:23 <lechuga_> but if you build your own dont run it on the same machine
 370 2014-01-25 03:13:29 <Apocalyptic> ^
 371 2014-01-25 03:13:30 <lechuga_> and godspeed
 372 2014-01-25 03:13:32 <Apocalyptic> just don't
 373 2014-01-25 03:13:41 <Diablo-D3> Pendrag0n: remember, to handle money on behalf of your customers, YOU need to comply with a lot of federal and international laws
 374 2014-01-25 03:13:46 <Pendrag0n> Diablo, you have no idea how many servers, what kind they are, what I do, stop assuming so much, it is annoying.  If you want to know what kind of servers we have, ask.
 375 2014-01-25 03:13:59 <Diablo-D3> Pendrag0n: I dont need to know what kind of servers you have.
 376 2014-01-25 03:14:02 <Apocalyptic> huh
 377 2014-01-25 03:14:04 <Diablo-D3> And you most likely have far less than I own.
 378 2014-01-25 03:14:06 justanotheruser2 has joined
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 380 2014-01-25 03:14:07 <Pendrag0n> I don't plan on running it on the same machine, did no body look at the flow chart I pasted above?
 381 2014-01-25 03:14:08 <Apocalyptic> that has nothing to do with servers
 382 2014-01-25 03:14:19 f1ay has joined
 383 2014-01-25 03:14:21 <Diablo-D3> Pendrag0n: I am advising you on how to not get sued.
 384 2014-01-25 03:14:30 <Diablo-D3> I suggest you take my advise.
 385 2014-01-25 03:14:32 <Apocalyptic> <Diablo-D3> I highly suggest a third party processor // so do I, strongly
 386 2014-01-25 03:14:46 <lechuga_> nah i think you should build it
 387 2014-01-25 03:14:51 <lechuga_> but figure out how to do it right
 388 2014-01-25 03:15:32 <Diablo-D3> lechuga_: its extremely hard
 389 2014-01-25 03:15:44 <Diablo-D3> lechuga_: and hes still going to need a lawyer.
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 392 2014-01-25 03:15:58 <Apocalyptic> and some compliance paperwork
 393 2014-01-25 03:16:05 <Apocalyptic> acquire licenses and stuff
 394 2014-01-25 03:16:05 <Diablo-D3> Apocalyptic: which lawyers come in handy for
 395 2014-01-25 03:16:06 justanotheruser1 has joined
 396 2014-01-25 03:16:17 <Apocalyptic> exactly, i'm in a similar process myself
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 399 2014-01-25 03:16:24 <Apocalyptic> it's no walk in the park
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 401 2014-01-25 03:17:03 <lechuga_> why do u need compliance if you arent processing into fiat
 402 2014-01-25 03:17:13 <lechuga_> just taking btc shouldnt need any should it?
 403 2014-01-25 03:17:25 johnsoft has joined
 404 2014-01-25 03:17:27 <Apocalyptic> i assume he would convert it somehow to fiat
 405 2014-01-25 03:17:29 <Pendrag0n> Diablo-D3, Apocalyptic, did either of you look at the image I pasted a link to that shows more than one server, and the service running on a different servers?
 406 2014-01-25 03:17:41 <Apocalyptic> of course if he just takes and store btc no requirement there
 407 2014-01-25 03:17:57 <Apocalyptic> but at some point the company would like to convert to fiat I assume
 408 2014-01-25 03:18:06 <lianj> Pendrag0n: i did, looks confusing. you know json-rpc to normal bitcoind is cleartext?
 409 2014-01-25 03:18:12 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 411 2014-01-25 03:18:22 justanotheruser2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 412 2014-01-25 03:18:46 <Pendrag0n> lianj, I do, another reason why I don't like bitcoind, but I will have it running 8196 bit encrypted sockets.
 413 2014-01-25 03:18:46 <Apocalyptic> lechuga_, there are very few companies and business models that can afford to stay in btc only during they operations
 414 2014-01-25 03:18:53 <lianj> also why would you let them handle their own bitcoind commands. thats asking them to do it right/secure which most wont
 415 2014-01-25 03:18:58 <Apocalyptic> random e-commerces sites aren't one of them
 416 2014-01-25 03:19:20 <Pendrag0n> wow this is frustrating, i feel like I am being trolled, you guys are assuming so much that I never said. it is rediculous.
 417 2014-01-25 03:19:43 <Pendrag0n> no one ever said I was excepting bit coins, i was making a more secure way for my clients to accept bitoins,
 418 2014-01-25 03:20:03 IGHOR has joined
 419 2014-01-25 03:20:14 <Apocalyptic> Pendrag0n, no one's trolling really
 420 2014-01-25 03:20:25 <Diablo-D3> [10:05:54] <lechuga_> why do u need compliance if you arent processing into fiat
 421 2014-01-25 03:20:25 <Diablo-D3> [10:06:04] <lechuga_> just taking btc shouldnt need any should it?
 422 2014-01-25 03:20:31 <Pendrag0n> as for your bs you likely have more than I do, who the fuck cares?  I am the senior software engineer for the fourth largest intrenet provider in the world, I have 80 grand worth of equipment in my home office, including 3 rack servers to my right, if you have more than that good for you.
 423 2014-01-25 03:20:32 cysm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 427 2014-01-25 03:20:51 <Diablo-D3> lechuga_: you need to comply with certain regulations to accept money on behalf of customers
 428 2014-01-25 03:21:01 <Diablo-D3> lechuga_: even if you arent a money transmitter... you are, by law.
 429 2014-01-25 03:21:12 <Diablo-D3> lechuga_: the law is neither fair nor pretty
 430 2014-01-25 03:21:46 <Pendrag0n> as for regulations for my company, I have 2 cooperate attorneys, one is practices international law in 11 countries, the other is well known in the US.  And my investors, though they haven't signed off yet, are looking to invest several million in what we are doing.
 431 2014-01-25 03:21:58 <Pendrag0n> they wouldn't want to just give some idiot money.
 432 2014-01-25 03:21:58 <Diablo-D3> *corporate
 433 2014-01-25 03:22:00 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 434 2014-01-25 03:22:05 <Pendrag0n> yeah, sorry, typo
 435 2014-01-25 03:22:10 <lianj> Pendrag0n: given you link, you at least put some thought in it. instead of blindly asking there with a 5 minute old idea. but still we have it so often that in most cases it boils down to please overthink it and plan much more time to completion
 436 2014-01-25 03:22:11 <Pendrag0n> I've been up for 22 hours
 437 2014-01-25 03:22:29 <Diablo-D3> Pendrag0n: I _highly_ suggest you do not accept the money yourself
 438 2014-01-25 03:22:35 <Diablo-D3> use a third party gateway.
 439 2014-01-25 03:22:58 <Pendrag0n> wow, gateway or not, i am NOT accepting any money for this shit, are you not reading anything I am typing?
 440 2014-01-25 03:22:58 <lianj> or become a third party gateway, but not over night
 441 2014-01-25 03:23:21 <Diablo-D3> accepting money or not is immaterial for this
 442 2014-01-25 03:23:35 <Diablo-D3> if you arent running a bitcoind yourself, its very hard to get in trouble for doing it wrong.
 443 2014-01-25 03:24:04 <andytoshi> fyi we're having a coinjoin right now, 0.45 outputs
 444 2014-01-25 03:24:08 <andytoshi> sorry for the short notice
 445 2014-01-25 03:24:14 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 446 2014-01-25 03:24:16 <andytoshi> ;;cjs
 447 2014-01-25 03:24:17 <gribble> Coinjoin Status: current session is open for 15 more minutes. There are currently something like 27 transactions in the pot. The most popular output value is 0.45. To participate, visit https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/ or http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ .
 448 2014-01-25 03:24:28 <Pendrag0n> I was just creating a more secure way for users with web sites to move money from their clients to their own wallets, I was just trying to enhance the open source JSONRPC bitcoind, because right now it is, not encrypted, this isn't for me, this isn't for me to except money, this me trying to make a better open source tool for the free world, so that client,s customers, consumers, and others can have an extra layer of securi
 449 2014-01-25 03:24:47 <Diablo-D3> Pendrag0n: the most secure way would to have you not involved at all.
 450 2014-01-25 03:25:22 <lianj> or make it your fulltime job :)
 451 2014-01-25 03:25:42 <Pendrag0n> and all I was asking, is can someone verify that the two issues that I believe to exist, do indeed exist, and you guys, instead of answering my question, immediatley went troll mode and started attacking who, what,where, when why and saying I shouldn't own a hosting company that does xyz.  We made over 400 million last year, I think I know a little bit about hosting.
 452 2014-01-25 03:25:56 <Apocalyptic> we answered
 453 2014-01-25 03:26:02 <Pendrag0n> I give up, you guys must only be half ass reading what I am typing
 454 2014-01-25 03:26:17 funky has joined
 455 2014-01-25 03:26:31 <Diablo-D3> dude, you're the one that came in here and claimed theres a security issue in bitcoin
 456 2014-01-25 03:26:38 pgokeeffe has joined
 457 2014-01-25 03:26:40 <Apocalyptic> i'm still looking for it...
 458 2014-01-25 03:26:42 <Diablo-D3> and then got shot down with "you're using it wrong"
 459 2014-01-25 03:27:00 funky has left ()
 460 2014-01-25 03:27:00 cysm has joined
 461 2014-01-25 03:27:14 <Diablo-D3> 1 bitcoind per customer, 1 vm per bitcoind even if its just kvm or lxc.
 462 2014-01-25 03:27:15 <Pendrag0n> I didn't say there was a security issue in bitcoin you no reading mother fucker, I said there was one in two users trying to use bitcoind at the same time, it is a linux daemon
 463 2014-01-25 03:27:20 <Pendrag0n> bitcoin != bitcoind
 464 2014-01-25 03:27:24 netg has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 465 2014-01-25 03:27:37 <Diablo-D3> Pendrag0n: bitcoind is NOT a unix daemon. its a headless client. _its named wrong_.
 466 2014-01-25 03:27:40 <Apocalyptic> can someone ban this guy already ?
 467 2014-01-25 03:27:48 <Diablo-D3> yeah, someone ban him, hes clearly not listening
 468 2014-01-25 03:28:18 alex_fun has joined
 469 2014-01-25 03:28:37 <alex_fun> hello, is it true Sunny King is inventor of POS?
 470 2014-01-25 03:28:52 <Apocalyptic> seriously
 471 2014-01-25 03:29:03 <alex_fun> or someone else invented it?
 472 2014-01-25 03:29:37 <Diablo-D3> wtf is pos?
 473 2014-01-25 03:32:22 IGHOR has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 474 2014-01-25 03:32:23 <lechuga_> proof of stake
 475 2014-01-25 03:32:31 IGHOR has joined
 476 2014-01-25 03:32:37 <lechuga_> and no i dont think so
 477 2014-01-25 03:32:46 <lechuga_> at least the wiki attributes it to quantum mechanic
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 481 2014-01-25 03:34:42 <Apocalyptic> gmaxwell, and you leave Pendrag0n here while he's insulting us of "mother fuckers" and "half asses" ?
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 485 2014-01-25 03:37:22 <Apocalyptic> not that I care but it's an interesting moderation policy you got there
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 492 2014-01-25 03:41:01 <gmaxwell> I didn't read the backscroll. I am not here 24/7 and you didn't report it to me.
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 494 2014-01-25 03:41:52 <gmaxwell> in the future please try to be a little more polite towards me.
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 505 2014-01-25 03:46:04 <Apocalyptic> gmaxwell, sorry if that sounded rude to you, wasn't meant to be
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 550 2014-01-25 04:17:28 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hey
 551 2014-01-25 04:17:39 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: why are so many alt coins based on ancient bitcoin codebases?
 552 2014-01-25 04:18:49 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, because their creators dont have the skill to merge
 553 2014-01-25 04:19:02 Neil has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 554 2014-01-25 04:19:06 <Diablo-D3> maybe.
 555 2014-01-25 04:19:11 <Diablo-D3> has ltc caught up yet?
 556 2014-01-25 04:19:15 <phantomcircuit> yes
 557 2014-01-25 04:19:23 <Diablo-D3> hrm
 558 2014-01-25 04:19:27 <phantomcircuit> warren did a bunch of work to bring it up to master
 559 2014-01-25 04:19:32 <Diablo-D3> I wonder how many people I would piss off if
 560 2014-01-25 04:19:35 <Diablo-D3> I forked litecoin
 561 2014-01-25 04:19:38 <Diablo-D3> and
 562 2014-01-25 04:19:53 <Diablo-D3> set difficulty to BOTH cpu hard and memory hard
 563 2014-01-25 04:20:17 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, it's pointless, the definition of memory hard changes as the cache size of common cpus/gpus increases
 564 2014-01-25 04:20:28 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: but thats the thing
 565 2014-01-25 04:20:33 <Diablo-D3> its part of the difficulty curve.
 566 2014-01-25 04:20:49 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, except it's largely a cliff
 567 2014-01-25 04:20:50 <Diablo-D3> so if theres some huge bloom in memory speed and size out there
 568 2014-01-25 04:20:59 <Diablo-D3> difficulty rapidly rises to match
 569 2014-01-25 04:21:12 <phantomcircuit> the difficulty would tick up just enough to put it outside the working set limits of the best gpu
 570 2014-01-25 04:21:17 <phantomcircuit> and the network hashrate would plunge
 571 2014-01-25 04:21:21 <phantomcircuit> never to recover
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 573 2014-01-25 04:21:29 <Diablo-D3> "best gpu"
 574 2014-01-25 04:21:33 <Diablo-D3> is still something like several k.
 575 2014-01-25 04:21:38 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, gpu with the largest working set
 576 2014-01-25 04:21:42 <Diablo-D3> yeah
 577 2014-01-25 04:21:45 <Diablo-D3> which will always be tiny
 578 2014-01-25 04:21:55 <Diablo-D3> I want something that prevents gpu usage
 579 2014-01-25 04:21:55 <phantomcircuit> right but you see my point?
 580 2014-01-25 04:22:03 <phantomcircuit> oh
 581 2014-01-25 04:22:11 <phantomcircuit> well you'd have the same issue with cpus
 582 2014-01-25 04:22:28 <phantomcircuit> the difficulty would climb and you'd get just outside the point of the cpu with the largest L1 cache
 583 2014-01-25 04:22:40 <phantomcircuit> and performance would drop by 20% instantly across the network
 584 2014-01-25 04:22:45 <phantomcircuit> rinse/repeat
 585 2014-01-25 04:22:56 <Diablo-D3> okay fine
 586 2014-01-25 04:23:02 <Diablo-D3> have the memory usage increase periodically
 587 2014-01-25 04:23:12 <Diablo-D3> like double every year
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 590 2014-01-25 04:24:55 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, a year is enough time for someone to build an asic and still make money on it
 591 2014-01-25 04:25:07 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: yeah but after a few years
 592 2014-01-25 04:25:13 <Diablo-D3> it becomes impossible for you to asic it
 593 2014-01-25 04:25:15 <phantomcircuit> maybe more like every 3 months
 594 2014-01-25 04:25:30 <phantomcircuit> that's short enough that you'd make building a functioning asic very expensive
 595 2014-01-25 04:25:38 <Diablo-D3> hrm
 596 2014-01-25 04:25:40 <Diablo-D3> maybe like
 597 2014-01-25 04:25:45 <phantomcircuit> since the design would be forced to include more memory than was strictly speaking necessary at the time
 598 2014-01-25 04:25:46 <Diablo-D3> I dunno
 599 2014-01-25 04:25:53 <Diablo-D3> I just see allowing even gpus to be a threat to security
 600 2014-01-25 04:26:16 <phantomcircuit> gpus are easy it's unlikely the working set of memory will significantly expand anytime soon
 601 2014-01-25 04:26:34 <Diablo-D3> if standard cpus owned by normal people cant participate usefully
 602 2014-01-25 04:26:38 <Diablo-D3> the coin isnt secure
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 604 2014-01-25 04:27:36 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, gmaxwell might have something to say on this
 605 2014-01-25 04:28:00 <phantomcircuit> but if you can come up with a sane algorithm that makes the function memory hard but can handle cliffs in the hashrate
 606 2014-01-25 04:28:12 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 607 2014-01-25 04:28:16 <phantomcircuit> then i think you can reasonably produce something where the cpu is faster than a gpu
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 609 2014-01-25 04:28:46 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, you'd want to test scrypt with various memory hardness settings on a gpu and on various cpus to prove the concept though
 610 2014-01-25 04:29:04 <phantomcircuit> the key metric there would be hashes/second/dollar of capital cost and hashes/second/watt
 611 2014-01-25 04:29:27 <phantomcircuit> i suspect you'll find it's fairly difficult to make a cpu beat a cpu in either category
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 616 2014-01-25 04:34:09 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: well
 617 2014-01-25 04:34:27 <Diablo-D3> what about having the memory knob adjust half as fast as the cpu knob
 618 2014-01-25 04:35:14 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, you'd probably want to do a bunch of experiments
 619 2014-01-25 04:35:21 <phantomcircuit> also iirc scrypt only has a single knob to turn
 620 2014-01-25 04:35:31 <phantomcircuit> so you'd need to invent your own memory hard hash function
 621 2014-01-25 04:36:13 <Diablo-D3> er?
 622 2014-01-25 04:36:16 <Diablo-D3> I thought it had two
 623 2014-01-25 04:36:35 <phantomcircuit> wait no you're right bcrypt only has one
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 628 2014-01-25 04:43:46 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|anyone here really good with cookie/session injections?
 629 2014-01-25 04:44:19 <phantomcircuit> Neozonz|Discx2, ##security
 630 2014-01-25 04:44:27 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|thank you
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 669 2014-01-25 05:16:11 <aegis> Kevin Bacon is on David Letterman.
 670 2014-01-25 05:16:39 <Eneerge> iwrestledabearonce
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 738 2014-01-25 06:44:40 <warren> Anyone know why the bitcoind patch Electrum needs was never merged into upstream?
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 742 2014-01-25 06:50:43 <phantomcircuit> warren, which one is that
 743 2014-01-25 06:52:38 * warren finds it
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 745 2014-01-25 06:53:46 <warren> ooh
 746 2014-01-25 06:53:48 <warren> "Older versions of Electrum used to require a patched version of bitcoind. This is not the case anymore since bitcoind supports the 'txindex' option. We currently recommend bitcoind 0.8.6 stable."
 747 2014-01-25 06:53:53 <warren> nevermind! =)
 748 2014-01-25 06:54:50 <warren> I apparently hadn't looked at this for a while.
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 934 2014-01-25 11:09:19 <alphaw0lf>  READ http://pastebin.com/FDReWXhu << TRUTH ABOUT CRYCUREX.COM << GET YOUR MONEY OUT WHILE U CAN
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 938 2014-01-25 11:12:43 <SomeoneWeird> alphaw0lf, okay I was going to ban you but if that is legit that's uh, worrying
 939 2014-01-25 11:12:57 <SomeoneWeird> please don't paste that with all caps and "<"s again, though
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1060 2014-01-25 13:20:01 <rodders> Dudes Whats new in bitcoin software developments? What projects do you guys have?
1061 2014-01-25 13:20:29 <CCSLNS> I want to script with python to access the data we get from the wallet through the console commands. Best resources?
1062 2014-01-25 13:21:24 <Jouke> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_%28JSON-RPC%29
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1065 2014-01-25 13:25:10 <waxwing> probably a stupid question, but is there any way to derive an ssh key from a bitcoin private key? is there enough entropy? i'd like to use the bitcoin key to avoid having another key for users
1066 2014-01-25 13:25:34 <sipa> no
1067 2014-01-25 13:25:47 <sipa> ssh does not use the same elliptic curve
1068 2014-01-25 13:26:47 <sipa> you can of course use a bitcoin key as seed for generating an ssh key, but it will nit allow verification using the bitcoin public key or address
1069 2014-01-25 13:26:57 <sipa> also, you should not reuse bitcoin keys
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1071 2014-01-25 13:27:09 <waxwing> heh just one reason was enough :)
1072 2014-01-25 13:27:20 <waxwing> but yeah i think i get it
1073 2014-01-25 13:27:24 <waxwing> thanks
1074 2014-01-25 13:30:03 <waxwing> i could imagine it working for ephemeral identities all the same, i mean, you can just generate the new pubkey (the ssh one)
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1086 2014-01-25 13:54:56 <shamoon> how do you calculate the hash160 from a bitcoin address?
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1092 2014-01-25 14:03:32 <sipa> shamoon: base58 decode it, strip the version byte in front, and strip the 4 last bytes (checksum)
1093 2014-01-25 14:03:38 <shamoon> thanks
1094 2014-01-25 14:03:43 <shamoon> what exactly is a hash160?
1095 2014-01-25 14:03:58 <sipa> it's a 160-bit hash of the public key
1096 2014-01-25 14:04:12 <sipa> ripemd160(sha256(pulickey))
1097 2014-01-25 14:04:26 <shamoon> what is the use?
1098 2014-01-25 14:04:55 <sipa> what is the use of addrewsses?
1099 2014-01-25 14:05:00 <sipa> *addresses
1100 2014-01-25 14:05:08 <shamoon> publicly identify a recipient
1101 2014-01-25 14:05:09 <shamoon> of a tx
1102 2014-01-25 14:06:21 <sipa> yeah
1103 2014-01-25 14:07:02 <sipa> well, the reason for not using full public keys, but addresses instead, is because satoshi believed public keys were 65 bytes long (this is not true, 33 suffices)
1104 2014-01-25 14:07:20 <sipa> which would result in very long strings to identify destinations
1105 2014-01-25 14:07:47 <sipa> so instead, we use the 160-bit hash of that public jey, which is over 3 times shorter
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1107 2014-01-25 14:08:56 <sipa> and use transactions that say "give me a public key and signature, such that that signature is valid for that public key, and the hash of that public key is X"
1108 2014-01-25 14:09:11 <sipa> instead of "give a signature valid for public key Y"
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1128 2014-01-25 14:41:53 <sipa> wumpus: regarding BIP30 integration
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1130 2014-01-25 14:42:31 <sipa> wumpus: i'm wondering about abolishing the keypool, and simply considering a key used when it is seen in a receiving transaction
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1132 2014-01-25 14:42:48 <sipa> which wouldn't require any state in the wallet
1133 2014-01-25 14:42:58 <sipa> apart from the transactions which are already there
1134 2014-01-25 14:43:18 <sipa> wait, that can't work
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1136 2014-01-25 14:43:52 <sipa> if you ask for a new address a second time, it needs to be a different one
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1138 2014-01-25 14:45:01 <sipa> wumpus: do you think we should retain non-deterministic behaviour?
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1145 2014-01-25 14:53:57 <fanquake> Dipolo Ended up installing Qt 5.2 this arvo. Haven't actually compiled yet, need to fix some includes somewhere.
1146 2014-01-25 14:54:26 <sipa> "arvo" ?
1147 2014-01-25 14:54:53 <fanquake> sipa: It's aussie slang for afternoon.
1148 2014-01-25 14:55:07 <sipa> heh, ok
1149 2014-01-25 14:55:11 <sipa> never heard it before
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1152 2014-01-25 14:59:13 <fanquake> sipa: heh, not too surprising. We have plenty of weird words over here.
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1240 2014-01-25 16:55:28 <mr_burdell> is this where the people that write sx hang out?  it's not creating deterministic addresses
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1267 2014-01-25 17:46:38 <andytoshi> mr_burdell: sx is entirely genjix i think, i dunno where he idles
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1367 2014-01-25 20:04:47 <andytoshi> i just announced my coinjoin client on bct https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=432121
1368 2014-01-25 20:05:06 <andytoshi> my bct account has 23 posts, if anybody here is well-known there and would like to vouch for its legitimacy, that'd be great
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1431 2014-01-25 21:25:43 <jerseykx> hi. would someone like to take a look at my two transactions which i can't get to work? one is paid to P2SH 2-of-2 multisig, another attempts to redeem the first one, but bitcoind rejects it with "VerifySignature failed" in debug.log. i've tried signing it manually using signrawtransaction but then i get "ERROR: Non-canonical signature: too short" and the resulting tx has only zeros in place of signatures... i can provide private
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1436 2014-01-25 21:29:13 <shesek> jerseykx, have you `addmultisigaddress` to your bitcoind?
1437 2014-01-25 21:29:29 <shesek> and is your client aware of the transaction paying to the multisig?
1438 2014-01-25 21:30:08 <jerseykx> shesek: no, i haven't tried addmultisigaddress, but my client is aware - it puts the redeemScript into the new scriptSig
1439 2014-01-25 21:30:45 <shesek> you need to addmultisigaddress, and make sure the public keys are in the correct order
1440 2014-01-25 21:31:04 <jerseykx> ok, let me try this. thanks!
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1446 2014-01-25 21:35:11 <jerseykx> shesek: hmm. ok, i've added the multisig address i'm trying to redeem, but `signrawtransaction` attempt still gives 'Non-canonical signature: too short', no matter what order i pass the keys in
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1459 2014-01-25 21:49:20 <jerseykx> anyway, if someone is interested in checking what might be wrong, i've put the data at http://pastebin.com/k6m71nBM - i suspect some of my two signatures are wrong, but i'm not sure how to check them separately. the transaction is from local regtest network, so it's not available anywhere else. i've got to go now, will be back in some 30mins, but will stay logged in here
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1474 2014-01-25 22:21:26 <netg_> can an bitcoind node be made avaible on TOR and clearnet?
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1476 2014-01-25 22:21:34 <netg_> like if he listens on both networks
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1478 2014-01-25 22:22:05 <sipa> yes
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1480 2014-01-25 22:22:26 <sipa> see doc/tor.md
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1490 2014-01-25 22:32:29 <netg_> tnx sipa
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1530 2014-01-25 23:11:36 <sipa> TD[away]: just to prevent you from doing duplicate work, i'm rewriting BIP32 significantly
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1533 2014-01-25 23:12:48 <sipa> TD[away]: calling the m/3' keys "hardened", explaining all combinations of deriving a key from a parent, and introduce explicit functions for converting between numbers, keys, byte sequences, and going from private to public keys
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1539 2014-01-25 23:16:06 <midnightmagic> sipa: Thank you
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