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  17 2014-01-26 00:17:10 <jcorgan> sipa: +1
  18 2014-01-26 00:21:52 <sipa> jcorgan, midnightmagic: https://github.com/sipa/bips/blob/bip32update/bip-0032.mediawiki
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  35 2014-01-26 00:42:15 <jcorgan> initial thoughts, pending more detailed reading: better, more distinct terminology throughout==good; using ser/parse/point seems a bit overkill but indeed more explicit
  36 2014-01-26 00:43:00 <jcorgan> e.g., i thought k*G was obviously EC multiplication resulting in a point, but point(k) not as obvious
  37 2014-01-26 00:43:20 <jcorgan> except by referring to the explicit definition
  38 2014-01-26 00:44:34 <jcorgan> but overall this update clarifies many things that I had to puzzle out when reading the earlier version, so bravo
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  48 2014-01-26 01:01:02 <sipa> jcorgan: thanks
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  51 2014-01-26 01:02:17 <sipa> indeed, k*G vs point(k) isn't an obvious improvement, i like seeing it a type conversion from scalars to points, though
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  83 2014-01-26 01:39:51 <jerseykx> ok, got it (my problem from 4h ago) - seems https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png is not completely correct for P2SH, because bitcoind expects to see the original script before hashing in TxCopy for signing, not the 'OP_HASH160 [20-byte-hash-value] OP_EQUAL'  from TxPrev
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 161 2014-01-26 03:31:07 <jcorgan> sipa: maybe have have the explicit functions, but give them letters, to make the actual formulas look like math and not computer code
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 163 2014-01-26 03:34:42 <sipa> jcorgan: i'm sure that will make it look more professional... but i'm not sure whether it makes it more readable
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 165 2014-01-26 03:35:53 <sipa> jcorgan: added a short request for comments on the pullreq
 166 2014-01-26 03:36:03 <jcorgan> ok, i'll take it there
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 186 2014-01-26 04:17:28 <shamoon> how do i find the "size" if a transaction? https://blockchain.info/tx/57e905d87607e8043ea8c369a79c95be0555aabd08df174476c5467eefd55f41
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 188 2014-01-26 04:18:47 <lianj> its just the bytesize of the serialized tx
 189 2014-01-26 04:19:04 <lechuga_> http://fetchtx.info/57e905d87607e8043ea8c369a79c95be0555aabd08df174476c5467eefd55f41?format=html
 190 2014-01-26 04:19:20 <lechuga_> yes
 191 2014-01-26 04:19:47 <lechuga_> and those are all the individual bytes in yellow
 192 2014-01-26 04:21:44 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: hey, you here in Miami by any chance?
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 196 2014-01-26 04:27:21 <lechuga_> nope kinda wish i went
 197 2014-01-26 04:27:38 <lechuga_> sounds like quite the event
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 200 2014-01-26 04:29:52 <shamoon> lianj: so just the hex?
 201 2014-01-26 04:29:54 <shamoon> of a tx?
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 204 2014-01-26 04:30:51 <shamoon> 270 characters, so what - one hex digit is 2 bytes?
 205 2014-01-26 04:30:56 <shamoon> so half of 270?
 206 2014-01-26 04:31:12 <lechuga_> 2 hex digits per byte
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 208 2014-01-26 04:32:15 <lechuga_> a byte is 8 bits which can have 2^8 different values so a maximum of 255 which in hex is 0xff
 209 2014-01-26 04:34:05 <gmaxwell> shamoon: ... no. Just the @#$@ transaction itself.
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 212 2014-01-26 04:35:53 <shamoon> thanks
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 356 2014-01-26 07:51:33 <wyager> As I build my own implementation of BIP32 following Electrum's example, I'm frustrated with the apparently random usage of raw binary data and hex-encoded data
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 446 2014-01-26 10:13:27 <abrkn> anyone able to review my bip32 code? node.js
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 448 2014-01-26 10:15:22 <abrkn> https://github.com/justcoin/bitcoinjs-lib/blob/bip32/src/hdwallet.js and https://github.com/justcoin/bitcoinjs-lib/blob/bip32/test/hdwallet.js
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 485 2014-01-26 11:21:48 <wumpus> sipa: indeed, a deterministic wallet wouldn't require a keypool, keeping a counter would be enough in that case... and indeed in the case of a restored old backup it could use the blockchain to determine what keys are 'used' though it's non-exact
 486 2014-01-26 11:22:28 <wumpus> sipa: not sure on preserving non-deterministic behavior as an option, it depends on what kind of break we make with the past in other things as well... ie make this a 'wallet 2.0' with different properties
 487 2014-01-26 11:23:25 <wumpus> it would have my preference to do that, keep wallet as it is now as legacy and then make a deterministic wallet 2 without keypool and other burdens
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 491 2014-01-26 11:38:43 <sipa> wumpus: i'm pretty close to integrating bip32 in the current wallet
 492 2014-01-26 11:39:12 <sipa> even though you don't technically need a keypool, you still need a lookahead to deal with restored backups
 493 2014-01-26 11:39:26 <sipa> and it can easily be reused for that
 494 2014-01-26 11:39:59 <sipa> very basic bip32 support is trivial (instead of generating new keypool keys at random, fetch them from a single keychain)
 495 2014-01-26 11:40:31 <sipa> it's a bit harder if you want to support multiple chains, extending chains without the private key being unlocked, and dealing correctly with loomahead
 496 2014-01-26 11:40:43 <sipa> as then you need multiple keypools
 497 2014-01-26 11:42:21 <wumpus> ok, well if you adapt the current wallet I'd recomment keeping support for randomized keys
 498 2014-01-26 11:42:27 <sipa> yup
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 500 2014-01-26 11:43:15 <wumpus> but do change the default to deterministic :)
 501 2014-01-26 11:43:21 <wumpus> (at least for new wallets)
 502 2014-01-26 11:43:35 <sipa> we'll need some nice gui wizard for setting them up :)
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 504 2014-01-26 11:44:29 <wumpus> well let me know what you need
 505 2014-01-26 11:45:20 <wumpus> so we can try to land this in 1.0
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 510 2014-01-26 11:50:14 <wumpus> and indeed, a lookahead is needed even for deterministic wallets, but I suppose we can make it bigger if it's no longer necessary to store all the intermediate keys... or is it better to just store all the private keys individually anyway?
 511 2014-01-26 11:50:42 <sipa> so, my plan is to *only* store metadata for derived keys
 512 2014-01-26 11:50:57 <wumpus> right
 513 2014-01-26 11:51:03 <sipa> i have an extended keystore which derives public and private keys on the fly
 514 2014-01-26 11:51:07 <sipa> if metadata is known
 515 2014-01-26 11:51:23 <sipa> which means you can add a new key without access to the parent private key
 516 2014-01-26 11:52:08 <wumpus> that could be useful indeed
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 518 2014-01-26 11:52:17 <sipa> i still store metadata for all keys, as you want things like birthdate evennfor those
 519 2014-01-26 11:54:06 <sipa> and with separated internal and externalnchains, you can have different lookahead
 520 2014-01-26 11:54:36 <sipa> as internal keys are alwaysnused immediately (they're for change outputs)
 521 2014-01-26 11:56:13 <wumpus> yes, storing metadata makes sense even for deterministic keys, it will be lost when restoring an old backup but that's just a nuisance not catastrophic
 522 2014-01-26 11:57:27 <sipa> you need it for labels, payment requests, ... too
 523 2014-01-26 11:57:42 <sipa> the only guarantee deterministic wallets provide is not losing money
 524 2014-01-26 11:58:00 <sipa> they can't give you lost accounting information back
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 528 2014-01-26 12:03:22 <wumpus> indeed
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 562 2014-01-26 13:04:43 <CryptDrift> Is there a project (preferably self hosted) to deal out public bitcoin addresses?
 563 2014-01-26 13:07:28 <wallet42> try http://coinpunk.org/
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 568 2014-01-26 13:13:28 <CryptDrift> wallet42, thanks though I'm looking for something very minimal to deal out address and monitor any new transactions
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 628 2014-01-26 15:34:04 <sacrelege> hi
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 634 2014-01-26 15:37:09 <sacrelege> I have a questions about the 'move' call, it doesn't seem described in the man page, what the ['minconf=1'] parameter is doing.
 635 2014-01-26 15:37:25 <sipa> it doesn't do anything
 636 2014-01-26 15:37:28 <sipa> it's historical
 637 2014-01-26 15:37:40 <sipa> originally, move prevented moves if it would result in negative balances
 638 2014-01-26 15:37:56 <sipa> so it needed to now at how many confirmations to consider a transaction complete
 639 2014-01-26 15:38:21 <sipa> but as preventing it from going negative is inevitable (reorganizations) anyway, that functionality was dropped
 640 2014-01-26 15:38:27 <Apocalyptic> sacrelege, the accounts feature is kind of broken, best not to rely on it
 641 2014-01-26 15:38:43 <sacrelege> sipa on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Accounts_explained at the end of the page "typical uses" they used: move "userid" "" <amount> 6 "purchased item"  just to move only confirmed balances...
 642 2014-01-26 15:39:03 <sipa> that's probably very old
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 644 2014-01-26 15:40:08 <sacrelege> Apocalyptic, sipa <offtopic>: what would be the pref. way to handle/implement account handling for a service?
 645 2014-01-26 15:40:10 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 646 2014-01-26 15:40:33 <sipa> do it yourself
 647 2014-01-26 15:40:39 <Apocalyptic> ^
 648 2014-01-26 15:41:05 <sipa> keep track of account balances in your own database
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 650 2014-01-26 15:41:13 <sipa> and only use bitcoind to send and receive transactions
 651 2014-01-26 15:41:32 <Apocalyptic> sacrelege, btw I saw you stopped selling those vouchers and went on creating charting apps for gox :(
 652 2014-01-26 15:41:52 <sacrelege> Apocalyptic, related to regulators in switzerland :/
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 656 2014-01-26 15:45:09 <sacrelege> sipa, how to keep track of incoming transactions? listtransactions seems a bit odd and -walletnotify is not merged to all alt-crypto clients yet.
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 658 2014-01-26 15:45:42 <sipa> on -walletnotify you poll listtransactionssinceblock (or whatever it's called), and update your database
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 664 2014-01-26 15:47:01 <sacrelege> okay, thanks a lot.
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 715 2014-01-26 16:42:09 <sacrelege> possible value for 'category' when calling listtransactions are 'move', 'send', 'receive'. 'orphan', 'immature' and 'generate' is that correct or did I miss something ?
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 719 2014-01-26 16:47:00 <sipa> sounds right
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 728 2014-01-26 17:00:17 <Ukyo> hey guys. I have a withdraw on record for XXXX amount. I see the amount leaving via address XXX and going turnign into 2 outputs being YYY and ZZZ. ZZZ is the intended destination with the proper amount. The rest went to YYY which is not an account the system has record of creating but validateaddress says "ismine". Can someone explain how this can happen?
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 730 2014-01-26 17:02:13 <sipa> Ukyo: read this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change
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 739 2014-01-26 17:13:07 <Ukyo> err, I do not see anything about bitcoind generating a new address on its own though
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 741 2014-01-26 17:14:26 <sipa> so these change addresses are internal
 742 2014-01-26 17:14:38 <sipa> they're only used once for privacy reasons
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 744 2014-01-26 17:15:01 <Ukyo> to be clear, this is an automatic process done by bitcoind that I have no control over, correct?
 745 2014-01-26 17:15:06 <sipa> indeed
 746 2014-01-26 17:15:11 <Ukyo> Thank you.
 747 2014-01-26 17:15:24 <sipa> you're welcome
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 820 2014-01-26 18:33:54 <TD2> sipa: thanks for the bip32 update!
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 823 2014-01-26 18:34:14 <TD2> sipa: i was wondering if you'd be willing to run a little python script that does HTTPS-to-DNS for the dns seeds. i'd like to make fetching data from them authenticated
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 853 2014-01-26 18:57:16 <sipa> TD: there's a changelog entry...
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 856 2014-01-26 18:57:56 <sipa> TD: i really don't like how stongly wallets already depend on (among others) my dns seeds
 857 2014-01-26 18:58:00 <TD> oh yes. bizarre. how did i not see that. typo:   conversion
 858 2014-01-26 18:58:19 <TD> sipa: nor do i. matt has been writing some code to use addr broadcasts. still, there will always be a need for the initial first-run seed request
 859 2014-01-26 18:58:23 <sipa> i've considered turning it off for that reason
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 862 2014-01-26 18:59:14 <TD> well, you should see load go down in the not so distant future. matt's code still needs some work but he's been funded by the litecoin team to do that in bitcoinj. so it needs work and review and merging, then as people upgrade load will go down
 863 2014-01-26 18:59:21 <TD> it's basically a reimplementation of addrman
 864 2014-01-26 18:59:36 <sipa> i don't care about load
 865 2014-01-26 19:00:02 <TD> sure, i know. what i mean is, you'll see wallets depend on it less
 866 2014-01-26 19:00:15 <sipa> that's a good thing
 867 2014-01-26 19:00:23 <sipa> but i still wish there were (much) more seeds
 868 2014-01-26 19:00:39 <TD> regardless, authenticated access would be useful. in particular for wallets that talk to the p2p network only via tor
 869 2014-01-26 19:00:59 <sipa> bitcoind just uses the p2p protocol for that
 870 2014-01-26 19:01:03 <TD> otherwise an exit can MITM your entire view of the network (+ you need a custom dns resolver to force TCP via SOCKS)
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 872 2014-01-26 19:01:28 <sipa> if you specify a seednode when using Tor, it establishes a P2P connection to it, does a getaddr, and disconnects
 873 2014-01-26 19:01:31 <TD> starting from what? the hard-coded list of peers?
 874 2014-01-26 19:01:42 <sipa> starting from whatever you like
 875 2014-01-26 19:01:43 <TD> yes and if you don't?
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 877 2014-01-26 19:01:56 <sipa> if you don't what?
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 879 2014-01-26 19:02:16 <TD> if you don't manually pick and specify a seed node
 880 2014-01-26 19:02:32 <sipa> it's no different than having a list of hardcoded dns seeds, i mean
 881 2014-01-26 19:02:52 <sipa> if you run bitcoind via tor now, it uses those seeds using that trick
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 883 2014-01-26 19:03:13 <sipa> i mean: no need for a special https protocol for this
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 885 2014-01-26 19:03:29 <TD> is it possible to run bitcoind via tor with *no* manual setup or configuration?
 886 2014-01-26 19:03:36 <TD> no specification of your own seed nodes?
 887 2014-01-26 19:03:40 <sipa> yes
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 889 2014-01-26 19:03:52 <sipa> it just uses the normal dns seeds
 890 2014-01-26 19:03:58 <sipa> but instead of doing a dns resolve
 891 2014-01-26 19:04:01 <sipa> it just connects to them
 892 2014-01-26 19:04:09 <sipa> (where the tor exit node does the resolving)
 893 2014-01-26 19:04:18 <sipa> and fetching a getaddr, and disconnects
 894 2014-01-26 19:04:22 <TD> ah, the assumption is every DNS seed runs a full node on the same IP?
 895 2014-01-26 19:04:27 <sipa> no
 896 2014-01-26 19:04:42 <sipa> it connects to a peer the dns seed resolves to
 897 2014-01-26 19:04:56 <sipa> so you have an extra indirection step (which is good, actually)
 898 2014-01-26 19:05:05 <TD> right, got it. so basically the tor exit picks a random node from the list the seed responds with
 899 2014-01-26 19:05:14 <sipa> exactly
 900 2014-01-26 19:05:19 <TD> i see
 901 2014-01-26 19:05:38 <TD> the tor exit can still MITM you of course .... that's what i was hoping to avoid
 902 2014-01-26 19:05:56 <sipa> we could have onion seeds :)
 903 2014-01-26 19:06:18 <sipa> where the MITM is avoided by having a hardcoded onion address
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 905 2014-01-26 19:06:34 <TD> that also works. though i think a 20 line python CGI script that's accessible via HTTPS is probably less overhead for seed operators than running tor
 906 2014-01-26 19:07:06 <TD> but possibly i'm wrong about that
 907 2014-01-26 19:07:20 <TD> would you/could you run an onion seed?
 908 2014-01-26 19:07:25 <sipa> i do
 909 2014-01-26 19:07:44 <sipa> but i'd rather not be the *only* hardcoded onion seed
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 911 2014-01-26 19:07:48 <TD> sure
 912 2014-01-26 19:08:02 <TD> so i guess what we need is a list of onion peers that are known to be stable/high uptime and give good answers via getaddr
 913 2014-01-26 19:08:03 <TD> hmmm
 914 2014-01-26 19:08:15 <TD> the nice thing about the dns seeds is you at least get a fresh list that's been filtered a bit
 915 2014-01-26 19:08:44 <TD> your "onion seed" is just a regular peer exported via a hs, right? as i don't see how to do the DNS query via the onion protocol.
 916 2014-01-26 19:09:12 <sipa> yeah, it's just a regular bitcoind on a hidden service
 917 2014-01-26 19:09:18 <sipa> well, no need for it to be bitcoind
 918 2014-01-26 19:09:39 <sipa> but any hidden service bitcoind will work fine
 919 2014-01-26 19:10:33 <TD> i wonder about performance. it's much faster to connect to a clearnet site than a hs. hmm.
 920 2014-01-26 19:10:46 <TD> also how is the quality of getaddr responses? a dns seed gives nodes that are pretty certain to be up
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 922 2014-01-26 19:10:52 <TD> getaddr might return IP's that are very stale right?
 923 2014-01-26 19:11:06 <sipa> yeah
 924 2014-01-26 19:11:22 <sipa> another sign that we're over-relying on dns seeds :)
 925 2014-01-26 19:11:45 <TD> hrmmmm. doesn't seem like an easy way to fix that though :)
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 927 2014-01-26 19:13:09 <TD> i'm still somewhat torn between have a bunch of "sites that translate HTTPS to DNS seed queries" vs just using hs nodes. i worry that it'd take ages to bring up p2p connections with the latter when all the overhead and stale IPs are taken into account
 928 2014-01-26 19:13:12 <TD> could experiment though
 929 2014-01-26 19:13:17 <TD> devrandom: you reading this?
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 941 2014-01-26 19:24:18 <TD> sipa: i just tried it. nearly a minute to go from cold to connected to a hidden service :(
 942 2014-01-26 19:24:33 <TD> sipa: i'm not sure that's gonna work well for what i want.
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 946 2014-01-26 19:29:30 <TD> hmm interesting
 947 2014-01-26 19:29:35 <TD> second attempt only 33 seconds
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 949 2014-01-26 19:32:19 <PRab> How many connections attempts did it take to get a successful one?
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 953 2014-01-26 19:34:19 <TD> third attempt, 5 seconds but that's with cached directory descriptors
 954 2014-01-26 19:34:44 <TD> second attempt was after deleting the descriptor cache, so perhaps tor was "warmed up" inside the network or something
 955 2014-01-26 19:35:06 <TD> PRab: i'm just timing how long it takes to connect right now. this does not include getaddr and connecting to the actual peers. so it's a lower bound
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 957 2014-01-26 19:35:43 <PRab> Ooh, oops. I thought you were waiting for the first successful connection from some hardcoded list.
 958 2014-01-26 19:36:18 <TD> no. these are the timings to go from "no data locally" to "got a connection to my personal bitcoind hidden service node"
 959 2014-01-26 19:36:21 <TD> seems it's rather variable
 960 2014-01-26 19:37:16 <TD> when tor is "warmed up" we can go from start to connected in about 6 seconds, it seems. very interesting. that's a lot more like it
 961 2014-01-26 19:37:29 <TD> possibly for the mobile case we would always have fresh directory consensus due to the 24 hour syncs
 962 2014-01-26 19:37:40 <PRab> got it. Interesting experiment.
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 964 2014-01-26 19:38:30 <Diablo-D3> hey guys
 965 2014-01-26 19:38:50 <Diablo-D3> the btc field in a tx is 32 bit right?
 966 2014-01-26 19:39:09 <sipa> do your math
 967 2014-01-26 19:39:20 <sipa> ;;calc 2**32 / 100000000
 968 2014-01-26 19:39:20 <gribble> 42.94967296
 969 2014-01-26 19:39:28 <TD> it's 64 bit
 970 2014-01-26 19:39:34 <sipa> ^- that would mean no amounts above 42.94 BTC would be possible...
 971 2014-01-26 19:39:43 <Apocalyptic> you couldn't send more than 43 btc otherwise
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 976 2014-01-26 19:40:55 <TD> sipa: my hidden service node still has no tor connections. i wonder if i set it up right to advertise in addr messages
 977 2014-01-26 19:41:20 <sipa> what command line / config flags?
 978 2014-01-26 19:42:49 <gmaxwell> we'd talked about that before… just not done it. Needed for onlynet=tor config to really work on initial bringup.
 979 2014-01-26 19:43:04 <gmaxwell> oops I was in backscroll, was referring to onion seeds.
 980 2014-01-26 19:43:56 <TD> in bitcoin.conf i have
 981 2014-01-26 19:43:57 <TD> externalip=n5o5kf6ggofn37ne.onion
 982 2014-01-26 19:43:57 <TD> listen=1
 983 2014-01-26 19:43:58 <TD> discover=1
 984 2014-01-26 19:44:41 <sipa> no proxy/tor?
 985 2014-01-26 19:45:07 <TD> i don't care about connecting through tor or being hidden. just exposing it as an hs\
 986 2014-01-26 19:45:42 <sipa> with -tor you'd also be able to connect to hidden services
 987 2014-01-26 19:45:50 <sipa> without using it for normal peers
 988 2014-01-26 19:46:08 <sipa> though that doesn't matter for you being able to advertize
 989 2014-01-26 19:46:12 <TD> i see. but it should still advertise its hidden service address via getaddr anyway right
 990 2014-01-26 19:46:14 <TD> indeed
 991 2014-01-26 19:46:16 btiefert2 has joined
 992 2014-01-26 19:47:00 <TD> i wonder why it's so much faster now than before. perhaps my hidden service was dormant and didn't have any circuits to any rendezvous points or something
 993 2014-01-26 19:47:07 <sipa> might be
 994 2014-01-26 19:47:31 btiefert3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 995 2014-01-26 19:47:53 <TD> do you have your onion address to hand, by any chance?
 996 2014-01-26 19:48:18 <sipa> kjy2eqzk4zwi5zd3.onion
 997 2014-01-26 19:49:14 <TD> yeah, 6.5 seconds for yours too. i guess indeed mine was asleep in some way
 998 2014-01-26 19:49:47 <sipa> which peer are you?
 999 2014-01-26 19:49:52 <sipa> i've seen 4 connections the past minute
1000 2014-01-26 19:50:01 stk` has joined
1001 2014-01-26 19:50:07 <TD> the one that didn't announce any version packet. i'm just playing with orchid
1002 2014-01-26 19:50:15 <sipa> ah, then i don't know :)
1003 2014-01-26 19:50:17 <TD> so the "connect" here does not include version handshaking
1004 2014-01-26 19:50:22 <sipa> right
1005 2014-01-26 19:50:55 Blackreign has joined
1006 2014-01-26 19:52:21 eristisk has joined
1007 2014-01-26 19:52:39 Eiii has joined
1008 2014-01-26 19:53:40 theorbtwo has joined
1009 2014-01-26 19:54:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|20:59:22 <TD> i wonder about performance. it's much faster to connect to a clearnet site than a hs. hmm.
1010 2014-01-26 19:54:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, hs has twice as many hops
1011 2014-01-26 19:54:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(also, if you want another hs to test to, you can use c7nvv7pgmbitcoin)
1012 2014-01-26 19:55:26 <sipa> 3 vs 7 hops, iirc
1013 2014-01-26 19:55:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Yes, I think that's right
1014 2014-01-26 19:56:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(the hs and the connector each make a 3-hop circuit to a rendezvous point)
1015 2014-01-26 19:56:23 Muis has joined
1016 2014-01-26 19:56:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, right -- so slightly more than twice as many, because of the middle point
1017 2014-01-26 19:57:24 Anduck has joined
1018 2014-01-26 20:00:19 tmsk has joined
1019 2014-01-26 20:00:38 <TD> sipa: look in your logs for "test app"
1020 2014-01-26 20:01:32 prophetx has joined
1021 2014-01-26 20:01:33 <sipa> TD: seeing it
1022 2014-01-26 20:01:37 prophetx has quit (2!~prophetx1@46.24.102.12|Max SendQ exceeded)
1023 2014-01-26 20:01:51 <TD> sipa: answer: with fresh directory consensus, i can connect to tor in 2.9 seconds, do ssl connect to google.com in 3.7 seconds, version handshake with your node in 9.6 seconds and get a pingpong back in 10.8 seconds
1024 2014-01-26 20:01:54 yubrew has joined
1025 2014-01-26 20:02:07 prophetx has joined
1026 2014-01-26 20:02:27 <TD> and it takes about 30 seconds to sync with the tor directories if need be
1027 2014-01-26 20:02:35 <sipa> that doesn't sound too bad
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1029 2014-01-26 20:02:52 <theorbtwo> Is that ssl connect to google.com over tor, or for comparison?
1030 2014-01-26 20:02:52 <TD> yeah that's ok for seeding. we'd be doing clearnet connects after that anyway
1031 2014-01-26 20:02:59 <TD> theorbtwo: that's over tor
1032 2014-01-26 20:03:12 <TD> and those times are cumulative
1033 2014-01-26 20:03:30 <TD> i.e. to go from conneted to tor to connected/handshaked with google.com it takes 0.7 seconds, i think
1034 2014-01-26 20:04:52 <TD> sorry, my bad. i think the ssl handshake wasn't completing there. i think it's more like ssl handshake after 4.3 seconds
1035 2014-01-26 20:05:31 prophetx has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1037 2014-01-26 20:08:36 <TD> still need to bridge dns seeds to a hidden service though
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1047 2014-01-26 20:20:36 <TD> sipa: what do you think to adding a getconnected message to the protocol? so rather than relying entirely on getaddr which may serve a lot of stale peers, you could quickly bootstrap by picking "peers my current peer is connected to". it might also be useful to map the structure of the nework
1048 2014-01-26 20:21:06 <sipa> s/useful/dangerous/ ?
1049 2014-01-26 20:21:20 <TD> *shrug* dangerous for what? the connections are semi-random anyway
1050 2014-01-26 20:22:16 <sipa> i don't like the network structure being blatantly obvious -- it would provide invaluable information if you would want to split the network
1051 2014-01-26 20:22:38 <sipa> also, i think it would increase clustering
1052 2014-01-26 20:23:17 <TD> do a 3-hop walk or something like that would basically be like a decentralised network crawl
1053 2014-01-26 20:23:18 jakoblind has joined
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1055 2014-01-26 20:24:32 nsh has joined
1056 2014-01-26 20:24:38 <TD> the problem i need to solve is, how can i get connected to a nice spread of p2p nodes, in only a few seconds
1057 2014-01-26 20:24:42 <jaakkos> that sounds incredibly dangerous
1058 2014-01-26 20:24:53 <TD> can someone please give me an *actual* attack that this would allow?
1059 2014-01-26 20:26:25 <jaakkos> obtaining topology information helps in various attacks...
1060 2014-01-26 20:26:37 <TD> like?
1061 2014-01-26 20:26:54 elgrecoFL has joined
1062 2014-01-26 20:27:16 <sipa> seems we should just improve the quality of addresses kept in addrman
1063 2014-01-26 20:27:35 <TD> unless nodes are crawling each other all the time, which would massively add bandwidth usage, how can addrman keep addresses fresh?
1064 2014-01-26 20:27:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|TD: A strategic DoS attack could split the network
1065 2014-01-26 20:27:56 <TD> michagogo|cloud: it's a mesh. how would that work?
1066 2014-01-26 20:28:04 <sipa> not crawling, but rotating a peer every few minutes should help a lot
1067 2014-01-26 20:28:07 <jaakkos> well, for instance you could try to stop a peer from communicating with everyone else but you
1068 2014-01-26 20:28:20 <jaakkos> then if they accept 0-confirmation, it becomes trivial to double spend
1069 2014-01-26 20:28:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|TD: You could still split off clusters
1070 2014-01-26 20:28:21 <sipa> i've done simulations a year ago or so, just never got to implementing it
1071 2014-01-26 20:28:45 mattco has joined
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1073 2014-01-26 20:29:27 <TD> jaakkos: a peer will add new connections if its existing ones time out, won't it?
1074 2014-01-26 20:30:53 <TD> sipa: so then getaddr would return recently used addresses instead of active addresses?
1075 2014-01-26 20:31:34 <sipa> it always returns both
1076 2014-01-26 20:31:55 mattco1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1077 2014-01-26 20:31:57 <sipa> but usually the set of untried addresses is much larger and up to date than the set of known good addresses
1078 2014-01-26 20:32:04 <sipa> just because we rarely make connections ourself
1079 2014-01-26 20:33:13 <TD> alright. so how about this plan
1080 2014-01-26 20:33:45 <TD> we find a bunch of people running long-term stable onion nodes. we ask them to apply an experimental patch (or get it into 0.9.1 and ask them to enable it) that makes a node rotate its peers constantly so it has a big fresh set
1081 2014-01-26 20:34:10 <TD> then to securely bootstrap over tor, you would connect to these nodes and getaddr them. issue: getaddr response does not distinguish between "tried recently" and "untried", does it
1082 2014-01-26 20:34:32 <sipa> indeed, it doesn't
1083 2014-01-26 20:34:45 <TD> perhaps it could
1084 2014-01-26 20:34:56 <sipa> there are some timestams
1085 2014-01-26 20:34:59 <TD> if it's careful to exclude currently used peers
1086 2014-01-26 20:35:02 <sipa> maybe you can derive something from that
1087 2014-01-26 20:38:45 <TD> hm. it's a bit hard to figure out what the timestamps represent, from looking at the code
1088 2014-01-26 20:38:58 eculver has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1089 2014-01-26 20:39:13 * devrandom is reading backscroll
1090 2014-01-26 20:40:08 <devrandom> TD: I tend to agree with sipa that getaddr should be improved so that it returns a good set rather than having a special patch for it
1091 2014-01-26 20:40:43 <sipa> I've wanted to implement peer rotation for a long time - i think it's a generally good thing for the network
1092 2014-01-26 20:40:44 <devrandom> since having a good set is good for all peers, not just peers that need an initial seed
1093 2014-01-26 20:41:06 <TD> sure. i'm just trying to figure out the shortest path to getting tor working
1094 2014-01-26 20:41:18 <TD> i'm not against better p2p management in the c++ side in general
1095 2014-01-26 20:41:33 <sacrelege> as far as I understand a transaction can have multiple outputs going to the same address (including same amount & time / timereceived ). If I want to store the output of 'bitcoind listransaction' into a Database (MySQL), how can I identify/differentiate if the transaction was already seen/stored or it is a new one?
1096 2014-01-26 20:41:50 <devrandom> TD: you don't think that existing getaddr to a set of known onion nodes would be Good Enough for now?
1097 2014-01-26 20:42:29 <sipa> (the idea was: assign each outgoing connection a score based on (time_connected)**(-0.8), tweak based on which peers have recently given us good blocks/..., and every N minutes create a new connection even if we are already at the limit, and if that succeeds, disconnect the peer with the lowest score)
1098 2014-01-26 20:42:51 <sipa> that results in some long-time connections to remain open, and some connections that cycle regularly
1099 2014-01-26 20:42:55 <sipa> but in a random fashion
1100 2014-01-26 20:43:17 oPen_syLar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1101 2014-01-26 20:43:28 <TD> devrandom: we can try it once matt's addr tracking code is finished/merged. but i suspect we'd waste a lot of time trying to connect to nodes that have gone offline
1102 2014-01-26 20:43:44 <sipa> s/lowest score/proportional to score/
1103 2014-01-26 20:43:58 <devrandom> does current getaddr sort by lastseen?
1104 2014-01-26 20:44:04 <TD> devrandom: no
1105 2014-01-26 20:44:07 <sipa> i doubt that
1106 2014-01-26 20:44:17 <TD> sipa: scoring connections like that is useful for anti-DoS as well
1107 2014-01-26 20:44:19 oPen_syLar has joined
1108 2014-01-26 20:44:34 <TD> oh, maybe not. the score would only be for outbound connections i guess
1109 2014-01-26 20:44:34 <devrandom> does the getaddr packet contain the lastseen at least?
1110 2014-01-26 20:44:43 cysm has joined
1111 2014-01-26 20:44:44 <sipa> TD: well the score can be kept for all of course
1112 2014-01-26 20:44:45 <TD> devrandom: no. it contains a timestamp but i can't figure out what it represents :)
1113 2014-01-26 20:45:07 <devrandom> hmmm
1114 2014-01-26 20:45:58 <devrandom> TD: so maybe having the onion seeds patched with an improved getaddr would be a good short-term solution
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1116 2014-01-26 20:46:40 <sipa> i don't care that much about improving getaddr - it should be the result of having a good set of addresses in general
1117 2014-01-26 20:46:56 <sipa> every node benefits from that
1118 2014-01-26 20:47:26 <devrandom> right, I think TD wants a short term solution for SPV clients over Tor
1119 2014-01-26 20:47:44 <devrandom> so a simple patch as a stop-gap...
1120 2014-01-26 20:48:07 <sipa> you're not going to improve getaddr much anyway, i think
1121 2014-01-26 20:48:17 <TD> well, "short term". it'd be nice if we could get it within a bitcoinj release cycle, which is usually measured in months
1122 2014-01-26 20:48:52 <TD> probably making peers effectively crawl each other by having peers drop and reconnect as sipa suggests would result in getaddr results becoming much more heavily biased in favour of active nodes
1123 2014-01-26 20:49:18 <TD> and then we could replace dns seeding with getaddring a hidden service node. though i'm not a fan of the 2x speed penalty for using hidden services.
1124 2014-01-26 20:49:26 <TD> i wish tor supported encrypted services
1125 2014-01-26 20:49:49 <sipa> ?
1126 2014-01-26 20:49:58 <devrandom> for the onion seeds, the patch could be something that just sorts the current connections above all other addresses
1127 2014-01-26 20:50:10 <TD> "encrypted services" is the name of a tor improvement proposal where you get an onion address, but the endpoint isn't hidden
1128 2014-01-26 20:50:22 <TD> so it's faster but less anonymous
1129 2014-01-26 20:50:52 <sipa> hmm
1130 2014-01-26 20:50:57 <TD> devrandom: then everyone would end up hitting the same set of peers
1131 2014-01-26 20:51:04 <devrandom> just realized that
1132 2014-01-26 20:51:06 <TD> devrandom: the current dns seeds do a good job of spraying the load evenly
1133 2014-01-26 20:51:33 <devrandom> yeah, I think sipa's suggestion is the minimum to get a good spread
1134 2014-01-26 20:51:45 <devrandom> actually, how do the current seeds generate their list?
1135 2014-01-26 20:51:56 <TD> from other nodes addr broadcasts
1136 2014-01-26 20:51:56 <sipa> crawling
1137 2014-01-26 20:52:29 <TD> oh, sorry
1138 2014-01-26 20:52:35 <TD> i misread "seed" as "node" :)
1139 2014-01-26 20:52:45 wyager has quit (Quit: wyager)
1140 2014-01-26 20:52:47 <TD> yeah the dns seeds actually do fast crawls of the network to find nodes that are live and longlived
1141 2014-01-26 20:53:16 <devrandom> so maybe a stop-gap would be a special bitcoind that returns getaddr from a file instead of from the builtin?
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1144 2014-01-26 20:54:20 <TD> the simplest method is what i originally suggested - just add https to the current set of seeds. making the getaddr response of every node competitive with the output of the dns crawlers is a longer term project
1145 2014-01-26 20:54:34 Alina-malina has joined
1146 2014-01-26 20:54:36 <TD> i'd prefer not to entangle tor-for-spv with that project, as they're somewhat orthogonal
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1154 2014-01-26 20:57:19 <TD> as an aside,seems like we're stable at 9000 nodes at the moment: http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/chart/nodes/?category=v
1155 2014-01-26 20:57:28 <TD> up from 6000 in nov
1156 2014-01-26 20:57:46 <sipa> my crawler considers 6400 nodes well-reachable
1157 2014-01-26 20:58:28 <devrandom> TD: BTW, is there any advantage to https over getaddr, assuming for the sake of argument that the data is the same?
1158 2014-01-26 20:58:56 <TD> don't have to use hidden services, exit nodes can't mitm you
1159 2014-01-26 20:59:19 <devrandom> so you'd pin the https fingerprint?
1160 2014-01-26 20:59:47 <TD> could pin the public key. or just check the hostname in the standard style
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1163 2014-01-26 21:01:54 <devrandom> OK, both approaches seem reasonable - I don't have a strong preference either way.  getaddr over hs seems more future proof protocol wise, but https is very quick to implement
1164 2014-01-26 21:02:31 <TD> i'd like both of course :) but if wishes were horses ....
1165 2014-01-26 21:02:54 <devrandom> both?
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1167 2014-01-26 21:03:21 <devrandom> do you mean some seeds over https, some over getaddr?
1168 2014-01-26 21:03:53 <TD> no i mean, https for short term so we can launch sooner, and make getaddr work better for the longer run so eventually we can get rid of the custom DNS protocol
1169 2014-01-26 21:04:14 <TD> devrandom: sipa also suggested another hack - connect to nodes using the DNS seeds as the hostnames, via a bunch of unrelated exit nodes
1170 2014-01-26 21:04:24 <TD> devrandom: they should pick a random (?) ip from the dns response packet
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1173 2014-01-26 21:04:49 <TD> 5 exits connect to dns seed hostnames 5 times should == 5 separate connections
1174 2014-01-26 21:04:54 <TD> if one exit is bad, only one connection is bad
1175 2014-01-26 21:05:00 <TD> this could be implemented with no seeder changes at all
1176 2014-01-26 21:05:38 <devrandom> oh, I see... basically gets a random IP from the DNS response
1177 2014-01-26 21:06:17 <TD> yeah
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1179 2014-01-26 21:06:23 <TD> you tell tor to connect to "dnsseed.whatever.com"
1180 2014-01-26 21:06:29 <TD> as if you were connecting to an ordinary website
1181 2014-01-26 21:06:33 <devrandom> right
1182 2014-01-26 21:06:58 <TD> we could do that for v1 instead of https. and then work on better p2p connection health/getaddr in parallel
1183 2014-01-26 21:07:20 <devrandom> one last idea in the getaddr/hs direction - could write a simple python script that only implemented getaddr and served from a file
1184 2014-01-26 21:07:30 <TD> where does the file come from?
1185 2014-01-26 21:07:43 <devrandom> from the seed list
1186 2014-01-26 21:07:57 <devrandom> or actually, could even be from a DNS lookup to the seed DNS
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1189 2014-01-26 21:08:26 <devrandom> i.e. it could do the DNS lookup when it got the getaddr req
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1193 2014-01-26 21:08:59 <TD> yes. that's sort of like the https proxy idea
1194 2014-01-26 21:09:13 <TD> as i said, hs has a 2x performance penalty and we don't really care about hiding the services anyway
1195 2014-01-26 21:09:28 <TD> so i'd rather not pay that if we don't have to ...... how about we prototype the "5 exits for 5 seeds" idea and see what happens
1196 2014-01-26 21:09:43 <TD> there seem to be one or two bugs in orchid anyway so a bunch of things need to be done on the java side anyway
1197 2014-01-26 21:10:01 <devrandom> as to hs being slow - in the long term, could have a single-hop hidden service - that would be about the same as the "encrypted service"
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1199 2014-01-26 21:10:52 <devrandom> TD: which release would this be for?
1200 2014-01-26 21:10:55 <TD> yes that's the encrypted service proposal indeed.
1201 2014-01-26 21:11:03 <TD> well i'd hope we could get it in, perhaps off by default, for 0.12
1202 2014-01-26 21:11:15 <TD> but it depends how fast things move of course. the only defining feature for 0.12 imho should be HD wallets
1203 2014-01-26 21:11:32 <devrandom> OK... feel free to assign to me, I should be able to do it in Feb
1204 2014-01-26 21:12:20 <TD> great. i'll be away for a lot of feb btw
1205 2014-01-26 21:12:27 <TD> so just forge ahead and see how well you can make it work
1206 2014-01-26 21:12:49 <devrandom> SG
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1306 2014-01-26 23:31:02 <Polyatomic> bitcoind 0.8.6 Saucy1: How do I connect to, public.au.relay.mattcorallo.com
1307 2014-01-26 23:32:15 <sipa> -addnode=public.au.relay.mattcorallo.com
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1309 2014-01-26 23:33:27 <Emcy_> saucy1?
1310 2014-01-26 23:33:30 <Polyatomic> beauty thanks sipa.
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1314 2014-01-26 23:36:10 Evolyn_ is now known as Evolyn
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1318 2014-01-26 23:38:48 <shesek> all those unknown blocks by 129.132.x.x looks suspicious... a pool that's trying to hide the fact that its coming from a pool? https://blockchain.info/pools?timespan=4days
1319 2014-01-26 23:39:26 <brisque> shesek: if you wanted to hide your pool from blockchain.info, you'd just not accept their incoming transactions.
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1321 2014-01-26 23:40:21 <brisque> shesek: that's a pool named Discus Fish anyway.
1322 2014-01-26 23:41:06 <shesek> how can you tell?
1323 2014-01-26 23:41:19 <sipa> the first rule of bitcoin is: do not rely on b.i
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1325 2014-01-26 23:41:31 <brisque> the coinbase contains "七彩神仙鱼" (discus fish)
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1328 2014-01-26 23:43:08 <brisque> they're a massive pool, so I don't know why blockchain.info hasn't updated whatever regular expressions they use to identify blocks.
1329 2014-01-26 23:43:34 <TD> it's not public i guess
1330 2014-01-26 23:43:47 <brisque> sure it is. www.f2pool.com
1331 2014-01-26 23:44:42 <TD> ah
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