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  45 2014-01-28 00:15:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|1:11:50 <phantomcircuit> (i didn't say that)
  46 2014-01-28 00:15:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|This channel's public logs disagree...
  47 2014-01-28 00:15:30 <Luke-Jr> lol
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  59 2014-01-28 00:20:47 <phantomcircuit> michagogo|cloud, LIES
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  81 2014-01-28 00:35:19 <sipa> phantomcircuit: commented on your pullreq
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  83 2014-01-28 00:35:31 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah i noticed
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  85 2014-01-28 00:35:44 <phantomcircuit> im busy trying to build a smarter payment card processing system
  86 2014-01-28 00:35:56 <phantomcircuit> which is basically impossible
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 178 2014-01-28 01:55:56 <Neozonz> Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|is it possible for rpcthreads to be busy?
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 220 2014-01-28 02:30:11 <sbrossie_> hey, i sent an email to  http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development to submit a new bip around recurring payments (improvements for bip-0070 or new bip) but i am not seeing my email in the list. Is that because the list is moderated?
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 224 2014-01-28 02:35:22 <andytoshi> sbrossie_: you need to be subscribed to post messages
 225 2014-01-28 02:35:33 <andytoshi> and you need to send mail from the address you subscribed from <.<
 226 2014-01-28 02:35:56 <sbrossie_> i subscribed this morning and resent it afterwards but i still don't see it.
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 472 2014-01-28 07:16:52 Ursium has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 473 2014-01-28 07:17:13 <jspilman> does it make sense to put transactions on test-net as a way to unit test wallets?
 474 2014-01-28 07:17:24 sassamo has joined
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 476 2014-01-28 07:17:37 <jspilman> and then sort of catalog where they are and what they do?
 477 2014-01-28 07:17:48 debiantoruser has joined
 478 2014-01-28 07:19:12 <jspilman> or is that supposed to be all done testnet-in-a-box?
 479 2014-01-28 07:20:15 mattolson has quit (Quit: Sleeping)
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 482 2014-01-28 07:21:39 <jspilman> could also do a lot of interesting HD wallet test layouts to help test people's bip32 discovery code?
 483 2014-01-28 07:22:14 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 485 2014-01-28 07:24:55 <sipa> jspilman: that sort of tests are usually done in regtest mode
 486 2014-01-28 07:25:21 <sipa> jspilman: there is a set of tests that start a network with 3 nkdes, and mine and create transactions
 487 2014-01-28 07:25:59 <sipa> putting tests for bip32 recovery code sounds great to put there, but unfortunately limited to one client
 488 2014-01-28 07:29:23 <sipa> ~oh, i missed the first part
 489 2014-01-28 07:29:55 <sipa> yes, there actually is an extensive set of weird transactions in the testnet chain, protected by a chrckpoint even
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 499 2014-01-28 07:45:40 <jgarzik> @@ -429,7 +429,7 @@ bool IsStandardTx(const CTransaction& tx, string& reason)
 500 2014-01-28 07:45:40 <jgarzik>  
 501 2014-01-28 07:45:40 <jgarzik>      // only one OP_RETURN txout is permitted
 502 2014-01-28 07:45:40 <jgarzik>      if (nDataOut > 1) {
 503 2014-01-28 07:45:40 <jgarzik> -        reason = "mucho-data";
 504 2014-01-28 07:45:40 <jgarzik> +        reason = "printer-on-fire";
 505 2014-01-28 07:45:42 <jgarzik>          return false;
 506 2014-01-28 07:45:44 <jgarzik>      }
 507 2014-01-28 07:45:48 <jgarzik>  
 508 2014-01-28 07:46:27 <jrmithdobbs> seconded
 509 2014-01-28 07:50:14 Coincourse has joined
 510 2014-01-28 07:50:30 <wumpus> hahahah
 511 2014-01-28 07:50:50 <wumpus> yes, much better
 512 2014-01-28 07:51:24 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 513 2014-01-28 07:51:46 <jgarzik> A static string indicating one and only condition, is just that.
 514 2014-01-28 07:51:52 <jgarzik> A static string indicating one and only one condition, is just that.
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 518 2014-01-28 07:58:25 <brisque> jgarzik: I'd be happier if it were lp0-on-fire.
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 527 2014-01-28 08:04:05 <sipa> jgarzik: no offence, but if you purely want a computer-identifiable string, it could as well be "error 42"
 528 2014-01-28 08:04:31 damethos has joined
 529 2014-01-28 08:04:41 <sipa> jgarzik: just making it an english string makes it be interpreted by people, and in my opinion, "mucho-data" just makes the system look not serious
 530 2014-01-28 08:06:23 <sipa> unrelated, i doubt how usable it even is as a computer-identifiable string, as these reasons will likely evolve over time, and potentially even without related protocol changes
 531 2014-01-28 08:06:41 <jgarzik> sipa, way too much engineer brainspace has been wasted on this topic :)
 532 2014-01-28 08:07:01 <sipa> fair enough
 533 2014-01-28 08:07:12 <sipa> but i don't want this in a release
 534 2014-01-28 08:08:41 <wumpus> well I think the clearest hint to we needed to clarify the message was that people apparently misinterpreted it as a general 'too much data'
 535 2014-01-28 08:09:22 <wumpus> even though the condition is very specific and rare
 536 2014-01-28 08:09:31 cadaver has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 537 2014-01-28 08:10:11 <jgarzik> please stop.  just stop.  the bike shed has been repainted.  :)
 538 2014-01-28 08:10:28 <wumpus> sorry...
 539 2014-01-28 08:12:36 CodeShark has joined
 540 2014-01-28 08:13:30 <jrmithdobbs> time for kerosene?
 541 2014-01-28 08:13:35 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
 542 2014-01-28 08:14:09 Ursium has joined
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 544 2014-01-28 08:15:33 <sipa> bikes are so 20th century
 545 2014-01-28 08:15:39 <wumpus> yes I'd like my shed extra-crispy please
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 547 2014-01-28 08:17:10 <sipa> hmm, based on a stackexchange question
 548 2014-01-28 08:17:20 <sipa> it seems you can import an invalid private key
 549 2014-01-28 08:17:30 <wumpus> we were promised a spaceshipshed for the 21st century :(
 550 2014-01-28 08:17:35 <sipa> (a number outside the valid range)
 551 2014-01-28 08:18:08 viperhr has joined
 552 2014-01-28 08:18:13 <sipa> wumpus: btw, very good comment on bip32... there is a very good reason for internal vs external, but it's not mentioned anywhere
 553 2014-01-28 08:18:31 <sipa> wumpus: it's so you can selectively reveal only incoming payments vs all
 554 2014-01-28 08:18:44 <wumpus> interesting, it will just wrap around? or crash and do bad things if the forbidden 0 number is passed?
 555 2014-01-28 08:19:12 <wumpus> that's indeed a good reason
 556 2014-01-28 08:19:13 Ursium has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 557 2014-01-28 08:19:27 <sipa> 0 and n are actually invalid, i suppose it would fail to sign using those
 558 2014-01-28 08:19:47 <sipa> but you can import a private key that is a number between n and 2**256
 559 2014-01-28 08:20:01 <sipa> and i expect that that will just work, interpewting it mod n
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 562 2014-01-28 08:21:36 <wumpus> it's an input validation bug nevertheless
 563 2014-01-28 08:21:42 <sipa> yup
 564 2014-01-28 08:21:58 <sipa> CKey has an IsValid method iirc
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 570 2014-01-28 08:24:29 <wumpus> CKey::Check() at least, but it appears IsValid calls that
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 572 2014-01-28 08:25:55 <wumpus> CBitcoinSecret.SetSecret needs to check validity of the extracted private key
 573 2014-01-28 08:26:21 <wumpus> SetString*
 574 2014-01-28 08:27:30 <sipa> hmm
 575 2014-01-28 08:27:31 <wumpus> hmm or maybe that's not the place... CBitcoinSecret::IsValid just checks that the ascii armoring is correct
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 578 2014-01-28 08:28:19 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 579 2014-01-28 08:28:49 <sipa> right, i'm unsure about responsabilities
 580 2014-01-28 08:28:52 <wumpus> well we can always just check the result of vchSecret.GetKey()
 581 2014-01-28 08:29:06 Namworld has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 582 2014-01-28 08:29:08 <sipa> whether the base58 code should do domain level checking of the encoded data
 583 2014-01-28 08:29:12 <wumpus> yes
 584 2014-01-28 08:29:19 <wumpus> it probably shouldn't
 585 2014-01-28 08:29:30 tim` has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 586 2014-01-28 08:29:30 <wumpus> it's just all so over the place that I got confused
 587 2014-01-28 08:30:14 <sipa> actually
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 594 2014-01-28 08:31:00 <sipa> why don't we use something similar like (or an extension of) IMPLEMENT_SERIALIZE to do base58 conversion?
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 606 2014-01-28 08:31:54 <sipa> it could move all this type-specific cobversion code to the types
 607 2014-01-28 08:31:59 BGL has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 609 2014-01-28 08:32:12 <CodeShark> why not just deal entirely in unsigned char vectors internally and have two specific functions: toBase58Check and fromBase58Check which are only used for UI?
 610 2014-01-28 08:32:27 HaltingState2 has joined
 611 2014-01-28 08:32:39 <sipa> good point
 612 2014-01-28 08:32:58 leochill has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 613 2014-01-28 08:32:59 <sipa> but the char vectors have no actual usage, as they are always just intermediary
 614 2014-01-28 08:33:20 <sipa> each base58 encoded type has a corresponding domain level type anyway
 615 2014-01-28 08:33:45 tim` has joined
 616 2014-01-28 08:33:49 <CodeShark> I'm not really sure why we're relying on base58 for typing information
 617 2014-01-28 08:33:49 <wumpus> adding serialization/deserialization logic to types themselves makes it impossible to contain the serialization logic , and can be confusing especially if they can be serialized in different ways
 618 2014-01-28 08:33:52 uxchallenge has left ()
 619 2014-01-28 08:34:02 <sipa> CodeShark: are we?
 620 2014-01-28 08:34:05 <wumpus> we're not relying on base58 for typing information AFAIK
 621 2014-01-28 08:34:10 <CodeShark> it seems if we want a serialized format for type data, we should develop a binary standard
 622 2014-01-28 08:34:16 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: you're good at hiding XD
 623 2014-01-28 08:34:20 <wumpus> we first decodecheck then work on the decoded vector
 624 2014-01-28 08:34:25 <CodeShark> base58 should only be for UI
 625 2014-01-28 08:34:32 <sipa> CodeShark: absolutely agree
 626 2014-01-28 08:34:32 leochill has joined
 627 2014-01-28 08:34:46 <sipa> internally we don't use any base58 encoded data at all
 628 2014-01-28 08:34:50 ioi has joined
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 630 2014-01-28 08:35:20 <sipa> afaik
 631 2014-01-28 08:35:23 <wumpus> indeed, we don't do that already, we use the actual types such as CKey internally
 632 2014-01-28 08:35:41 <wumpus> base58 is indeed used by RPC and the UI
 633 2014-01-28 08:36:26 niston` has joined
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 635 2014-01-28 08:37:00 <CodeShark> ideally we should eventually move away from base58 as well and work on interoperability standards for application interfacing
 636 2014-01-28 08:37:42 <sipa> sure base58 has no reason to exist in binary protocols
 637 2014-01-28 08:37:54 <wumpus> that's happening already with the payment protocol AFAIK
 638 2014-01-28 08:38:10 <sipa> correct, it encodes the output script directly
 639 2014-01-28 08:38:13 RoboTedd_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 640 2014-01-28 08:38:21 <CodeShark> I prefer to think of base58 as a short-term solution as long as the only practical way to move this data between applications is the clipboard
 641 2014-01-28 08:38:34 <sipa> that's probably fair
 642 2014-01-28 08:39:17 <wumpus> which can store any kind of mime-typed data not just text :) but that doesn't make it easier for users generally
 643 2014-01-28 08:39:19 bitnumus has joined
 644 2014-01-28 08:39:31 <bitnumus> Hi, i'm trying to run bitcoind, but getting this error   Unable to bind to 0.0.0.0:18333 on this computer. Bitcoin is probably already running.
 645 2014-01-28 08:39:34 <bitnumus> nothing is running on that port
 646 2014-01-28 08:39:52 <CodeShark> 18333?
 647 2014-01-28 08:40:09 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: testnet
 648 2014-01-28 08:40:14 <bitnumus> uh huh
 649 2014-01-28 08:40:24 <CodeShark> oh, right
 650 2014-01-28 08:40:36 <Luke-Jr> bitnumus: my guess would be you're telling it to use the same port for p2p and RPC
 651 2014-01-28 08:40:53 <bitnumus> Luke-Jr, i have no specific rpcport or anything set in config?
 652 2014-01-28 08:41:12 <sipa> what are you setting?
 653 2014-01-28 08:41:12 Muis has joined
 654 2014-01-28 08:41:23 <bitnumus> daemon, rpcuser and pass
 655 2014-01-28 08:41:37 <sipa> then it probably just already is running :)
 656 2014-01-28 08:41:44 <bitnumus> its not hehe
 657 2014-01-28 08:42:02 <sipa> ps ax | fgrep bitcoind
 658 2014-01-28 08:42:02 <Luke-Jr> bitnumus: not even another client?
 659 2014-01-28 08:42:08 <Luke-Jr> eg, Bitcoin-Qt
 660 2014-01-28 08:42:17 <wumpus> anyway I'm going to add the key validity check in importprivkey method itself for now, it's most transparent
 661 2014-01-28 08:42:28 <sipa> wumpus: sgtm
 662 2014-01-28 08:42:28 <bitnumus> no, but i am trying to run it inside an emulated ARM container
 663 2014-01-28 08:42:39 <bitnumus> maybe my networking is screwed, but it worked fine on another box
 664 2014-01-28 08:42:41 <Luke-Jr> ._.
 665 2014-01-28 08:42:50 <Luke-Jr> bitnumus: nc -l -p 18333
 666 2014-01-28 08:43:13 Muis_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 667 2014-01-28 08:44:00 nsh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 670 2014-01-28 08:44:49 <bitnumus> tried running bitcoind and it threw this > ERROR: CAddrman::Read() : open failed
 671 2014-01-28 08:45:05 <bitnumus> and seems its stuck at > dumpaddr thread start
 672 2014-01-28 08:45:12 <sipa> permission problem?
 673 2014-01-28 08:45:20 <sipa> disk full?
 674 2014-01-28 08:45:39 <bitnumus> no and no
 675 2014-01-28 08:45:41 <bitnumus> argh
 676 2014-01-28 08:46:03 <sipa> oh, if it crashed it may take a minute or so before the OS releases that tcp port
 677 2014-01-28 08:46:14 <bitnumus> that could be the first issue i guess yea
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 679 2014-01-28 08:47:55 <bitnumus> ok, none testnet is working, let me try testnet again
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 681 2014-01-28 08:49:45 <bitnumus> Just stops here > Opened LevelDB successfully
 682 2014-01-28 08:50:03 <bitnumus> same as before with the port error, but main net ran ok with this
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 684 2014-01-28 08:53:12 <bitnumus> seeing as it works ok on clean run, could be a wallet issue
 685 2014-01-28 08:53:17 <bitnumus> no decent error messages though
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 730 2014-01-28 10:02:48 <bitnumus> ok, please dont flame :)
 731 2014-01-28 10:03:01 <bitnumus> is the blockchain needed at all to broadcast transactions ?
 732 2014-01-28 10:03:24 <brisque> no.
 733 2014-01-28 10:03:36 <t7> blockchain is for confirming
 734 2014-01-28 10:03:56 <bitnumus> hi t7 :)
 735 2014-01-28 10:04:04 <bitnumus> so i take it there is no switch to stop the sync ?
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 737 2014-01-28 10:04:13 <brisque> no.
 738 2014-01-28 10:04:19 <bitnumus> booo
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 740 2014-01-28 10:05:32 <stonecoldpat> well you can create the transaction and just not send it to the network
 741 2014-01-28 10:05:41 <brisque> bitnumus: I thought you were referring to the technical side rather than from a copy of Bitcoin-QT. there's nothing stopping you from broadcasting a transaction by talking directly to a peer on the network, but the client itself won't know about recent transactions in order to spend them.
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 744 2014-01-28 10:08:39 <bitnumus> brisque, is a transaction is literally bounce off a wallet, this is the scenario
 745 2014-01-28 10:08:42 <bitnumus> if*
 746 2014-01-28 10:09:17 <bitnumus> so payment made from A to B, and B instantly sends it to C, does B need a copy of the chain ?
 747 2014-01-28 10:09:38 <bitnumus> i was under the impression transactions weren't broadcast unless the chain was synced, maybe that was an older version
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 749 2014-01-28 10:10:39 <brisque> you can broadcast anything you want with a custom client. I don't see why you would want to do as you described. you can do things like that, but B would really be blind to what is happening on the network and extremely vulnerable.
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 751 2014-01-28 10:13:40 <bitnumus> only interested in bitcoind
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 753 2014-01-28 10:14:28 <brisque> then no. clients need to be synced.
 754 2014-01-28 10:15:20 <bitnumus> it worked the other day, it wasn't synced, was 40blocks short yea it received and sent the coins
 755 2014-01-28 10:15:27 <bitnumus> so is that a bug, or ?
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 758 2014-01-28 10:16:03 <wumpus> you can spend your unconfirmed coins, there was a discussion about that yesterday if you scroll back a bit
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 761 2014-01-28 10:16:56 <wumpus> you'll spend more on fees though as the fee estimation depends on the depth of the inputs in the chain
 762 2014-01-28 10:16:58 <bitnumus> hmm, not enough scroll here it seems, any docs on this ?
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 764 2014-01-28 10:17:40 <brisque> bitnumus: bitcoinstats.com
 765 2014-01-28 10:18:05 <bitnumus> ta
 766 2014-01-28 10:18:13 <sipa> wumpus: not really
 767 2014-01-28 10:18:37 <sipa> wumpus: either the transaction qualifies as free (which is rare now), or not
 768 2014-01-28 10:18:43 <wumpus> sipa: hm I remember some issues about that, but I my be mistaken...
 769 2014-01-28 10:18:47 <sipa> if it's not, the fee is just per kilobyte
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 772 2014-01-28 10:19:56 <wumpus> sipa: #1858
 773 2014-01-28 10:20:08 <wumpus> if that isn't an issue, I'll just close it
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 776 2014-01-28 10:20:40 <sipa> wumpus: no, it's correct - the confirmations will impact whether a fee is required or not
 777 2014-01-28 10:20:48 <sipa> but it won't impact what is considered a sufficient fee
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 781 2014-01-28 10:23:21 <wumpus> okay
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 792 2014-01-28 10:41:36 <TD> good morning all
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 807 2014-01-28 10:57:27 <wumpus> morning TD
 808 2014-01-28 10:57:34 <TD> hi there
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 811 2014-01-28 11:04:59 <t7> do txs have a timeout ?
 812 2014-01-28 11:05:04 <sipa> no
 813 2014-01-28 11:06:03 <t7> would it be good if you could specify one ?
 814 2014-01-28 11:06:14 <sipa> depends on the semantics
 815 2014-01-28 11:06:31 <sipa> transactions becoming invalid after a particular time wouldn't work
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 818 2014-01-28 11:06:42 <sipa> but expiration from mempools is possible
 819 2014-01-28 11:06:45 <sipa> just tricky
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 835 2014-01-28 11:20:25 <[Author]> fyi new testnet faucet http://faucet.luis.im/
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1062 2014-01-28 16:28:14 <optimator> Is there a practical limit or hard maximum for txout in a transaction?
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1064 2014-01-28 16:29:20 <andytoshi> optimator: gavin answered you in the other channel. for reference he said >1MB can't fit in a block, >100kb is not standard
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1067 2014-01-28 16:29:51 <optimator> andytoshi: thanks!
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1071 2014-01-28 16:30:57 <Sp0tter> is there a way to limit the ram usage of bitcoind?  it is using > 700M resident
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1077 2014-01-28 16:32:39 <jgarzik> optimator, andytoshi : and there are also sigop limits
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1081 2014-01-28 16:35:50 <gavinandresen> optimator: that would be an excellent question for bitcoin.stackexchange.com ....
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1083 2014-01-28 16:36:15 <Ademan> ugh, so I'm trying to build bitcoind from source from git, but it's trying to pull in wxwidgets... Am I building the wrong repo, or does bitcoind use wxwidgets for some non-GUI stuff?
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1087 2014-01-28 16:36:31 <jgarzik> Ademan, wrong version, at a minimum
1088 2014-01-28 16:36:48 <jgarzik> Ademan, latest version uses git.  git://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git
1089 2014-01-28 16:36:54 <jgarzik> er, latest version uses Qt
1090 2014-01-28 16:36:55 <phantomcircuit> Ademan, bitcoin hasn't used wxwidgets in a very long time
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1092 2014-01-28 16:37:03 <phantomcircuit> so im assuming you're building an altcoin
1093 2014-01-28 16:37:06 <Ademan> jgarzik: that's what I thought... huh...
1094 2014-01-28 16:37:13 <Ademan> 'sec
1095 2014-01-28 16:37:15 <optimator> gavinandresen: ok I'll take it there - thanks
1096 2014-01-28 16:38:41 <Ademan> oh wow, yeah that was an ancient checkout of mine... I did a git pull but didn't notice it didn't merge what it pulled. Sorry folks!
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1101 2014-01-28 16:47:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ademan: yeah, you'll want to checkout either master or v0.8.6
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1108 2014-01-28 16:55:43 <sipa> Ademan: that must have been a *really* old checkout )
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1110 2014-01-28 16:56:38 <sipa> Qt was merged in sept 2011
1111 2014-01-28 16:58:43 <Ademan> sipa: it must have been, I don't dev on this machine much but I couldn't imagine it was *that* old...
1112 2014-01-28 17:00:15 <Ademan> if only I had tried mining that long ago...
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1121 2014-01-28 17:08:43 <Ademan> So has anyone taken a look at the technical aspects of ethereum? I still have yet to get an answer from the devs on how they plan to reconcile a turing complete language and per-cycle (after the first 16) fees...
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1128 2014-01-28 17:14:45 <oleganza> Hi there. Does anyone know if there's a way to combine two ECDSA signatures of the same hash in a third valid signature which can be verified by a combination of public keys involved in the source signatures?
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1132 2014-01-28 17:16:07 <oleganza> like, two guys sign the same document together and then combine their signatures in one which is verifieable with some DH-style public key derived from their keys
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1145 2014-01-28 17:24:47 <ThomasV> am I the only one to have problems with github.com (only web, git is fine)
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1150 2014-01-28 17:28:51 <TD> ThomasV: seems to be working ok for me
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1156 2014-01-28 17:32:35 <ThomasV> I get a 408
1157 2014-01-28 17:32:43 <TD> 408? that's new
1158 2014-01-28 17:32:58 <ThomasV> on this page for example: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039.mediawiki
1159 2014-01-28 17:33:31 <ThomasV> some pages work
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1162 2014-01-28 17:34:07 <TD> that page works for me. perhaps a regional issue
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1202 2014-01-28 18:23:26 <niston> is there a possibility to use bitcoin as a locator for other p2p services?
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1204 2014-01-28 18:29:42 <EasyAt> niston: What do you mean?
1205 2014-01-28 18:29:49 <EasyAt> For peer discovery?
1206 2014-01-28 18:29:53 <niston> yes.
1207 2014-01-28 18:30:07 <BlueMatt> there are better ways of doing peer discovery
1208 2014-01-28 18:30:11 <BlueMatt> like...far, far, far better
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1210 2014-01-28 18:30:40 <phantomcircuit> like scanning 0.0.0.0/0
1211 2014-01-28 18:30:41 <niston> how does bitcoind do it?
1212 2014-01-28 18:30:50 <niston> initial peer list?
1213 2014-01-28 18:31:14 aynstein has joined
1214 2014-01-28 18:31:15 <phantomcircuit> magic
1215 2014-01-28 18:31:21 Charlie has left ()
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1217 2014-01-28 18:31:32 swulf-- has joined
1218 2014-01-28 18:31:34 <swulf--> dns seeds
1219 2014-01-28 18:32:13 <niston> reading up https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Satoshi_Client_Node_Discovery
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1230 2014-01-28 18:47:19 <jcorgan> lol, America = Freedom, nice touch
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1232 2014-01-28 18:49:00 <jcorgan> sorry, that was supposed to be in #bitcoin
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1237 2014-01-28 18:55:11 <orion> Hi. I am running bitcoin-qt 0.8.6 on FreeBSD 10.0. I am getting a major crash in the client when it tries to sync the chain:
1238 2014-01-28 18:55:18 <orion> Assertion failed: (internal_key.size() >= 8), function ExtractUserKey, file ./db/dbformat.h, line 99.
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1240 2014-01-28 18:55:23 <orion> Does anyone know what could be going wrong?
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1281 2014-01-28 19:22:43 <justanotheruser> Is an M of N  transaction M of N pubkeyhashes or M of N pubkeys? If it is M of N pubkeys, why isn't it M of N pubkeyhashes? That seems like it would make it significantly easier.
1282 2014-01-28 19:23:03 <sipa> why is it easier?
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1284 2014-01-28 19:23:08 <sipa> you need to ask the receiver anyway?
1285 2014-01-28 19:23:16 <sipa> 20 or 33 bytes doesn't make much difference, i hope
1286 2014-01-28 19:23:21 <justanotheruser> sipa: because you can just give someone your address
1287 2014-01-28 19:23:35 <justanotheruser> It is less complicated for the average user
1288 2014-01-28 19:23:40 <justanotheruser> But is that a no?
1289 2014-01-28 19:23:50 <sipa> i don't think the average user should use multisig transactions directly :)
1290 2014-01-28 19:24:05 <sipa> indeed, CHECKMULTSIG requires the pubkeys
1291 2014-01-28 19:24:10 <justanotheruser> sipa: I think they should if it is easy to understand
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1293 2014-01-28 19:26:08 <sipa> the process is easy enough; the difficulty part is coordination between the receivers
1294 2014-01-28 19:26:55 <sipa> and even if it was pubkeyhashes, the receivers would still need to reveal the pubkeys when spending it
1295 2014-01-28 19:27:00 <sipa> which again requires coordination
1296 2014-01-28 19:27:17 <sipa> you can just as well do it in advance when setting up the multisig address
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1314 2014-01-28 19:41:33 <justanotheruser> sipa: yes, but I just think it is more user friendly to use addresses. Also, I assume it would save some space in the tx, right?
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1317 2014-01-28 19:43:02 <sipa> justanotheruser: imho, any time a user needs to see an address, we're doing it wrong
1318 2014-01-28 19:43:04 <shesek> justanotheruser, not really, the tx funding the multisig is usually p2sh
1319 2014-01-28 19:43:17 <shesek> so its already a single hash of everything
1320 2014-01-28 19:43:27 <shesek> and the spending transaction would be about the same
1321 2014-01-28 19:43:27 <sipa> the spending transaction would be significantly larger
1322 2014-01-28 19:43:35 <justanotheruser> shesek: good point
1323 2014-01-28 19:43:35 <sipa> as checkmultisig couldn't be usedf
1324 2014-01-28 19:44:16 <justanotheruser> sipa: yes, I know that. That is why I'm saying there should be a checkmultisighash so it can be small
1325 2014-01-28 19:44:28 <sipa> justanotheruser: that would require a hard fork
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1327 2014-01-28 19:44:42 <justanotheruser> sipa: or a soft fork with spv security I think
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1329 2014-01-28 19:44:57 <maaku> justanotheruser: simpler to add schnorr signatures
1330 2014-01-28 19:45:15 <sipa> justanotheruser: not if it has similar semantics to checkmultisig now
1331 2014-01-28 19:45:58 <justanotheruser> maaku: could you explain?
1332 2014-01-28 19:46:23 <sipa> to do it as a softfork, you can only have an operation that either fails the check or has no effect at all
1333 2014-01-28 19:46:27 <justanotheruser> sipa: even if it required a hard fork, would it not be better?
1334 2014-01-28 19:46:34 <sipa> i don't see any advantage
1335 2014-01-28 19:46:42 <gmaxwell> no it wouldn't, I also don't see any advantage.
1336 2014-01-28 19:46:44 <sipa> i don't think we should encourage the use of addresses for this
1337 2014-01-28 19:46:48 <sipa> for anything, really
1338 2014-01-28 19:47:04 <maaku> schnorr is a different signature scheme system which allows you to construct public keys which can be signed by M-of-N different private keys
1339 2014-01-28 19:47:22 <justanotheruser> sipa: layusers wouldn't have to deal with both their address and public key.
1340 2014-01-28 19:47:34 <sipa> justanotheruser: layusers should not have to deal with either!
1341 2014-01-28 19:47:38 <gmaxwell> one should absolutely never use some random address from another person for some purpose without knowing that that purpose is okay. What happens when you use an address that they have embeeded in a mtgox account or in a hardware device and cannot actually freely sign with?
1342 2014-01-28 19:47:41 <justanotheruser> I guess it isn't that big of a deal, but I think it would be slightly better
1343 2014-01-28 19:47:46 <sipa> the software should do all the coordination behind the scenes
1344 2014-01-28 19:48:01 <gmaxwell> maaku: though for M of N you must use an interactive protocol to create the key.
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1346 2014-01-28 19:48:04 <sipa> if they need to interact with public keys or addresses or any crypto material at all, we're doing it wrong
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1348 2014-01-28 19:48:30 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: same is true with a public key
1349 2014-01-28 19:49:00 <sipa> gmaxwell: the problem is that addresses are (unfortunately) accepted as something you can reuse, and observe
1350 2014-01-28 19:49:07 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: uh, why do you think I was implying other wise?
1351 2014-01-28 19:49:07 <sipa> eh, justanotheruser
1352 2014-01-28 19:49:11 <maaku> gmaxwell: sure, but you can always fallback to multiple pubkeys in the script for non-interactive use
1353 2014-01-28 19:49:22 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: once you need to confirm the usage you can get the right, acceptable, value for it.
1354 2014-01-28 19:49:35 <gmaxwell> maaku: just wasn't sure if you were aware of that.
1355 2014-01-28 19:50:19 <maaku> gmaxwell: thx, its an important limitation to bring up regardless
1356 2014-01-28 19:51:14 <justanotheruser> I suppose it isn't too much trouble to use a public key. Now that I think about it, the term "address" would probably confuse people when they realize it can be used in M of N addresses, while a "key" can be used to unlock them
1357 2014-01-28 19:51:22 <gmaxwell> maaku: it doesn't exist for N of N, for N of N you can just compute it directly.
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1359 2014-01-28 19:52:17 <sipa> justanotheruser: much of the confusion imho is due to failure to distinguish the current base58 strings when used as an identifier for a key, and when used as a destination for a transaction
1360 2014-01-28 19:52:29 <sipa> it's only an address if someone is actually willing to accept coins on it
1361 2014-01-28 19:52:48 <maaku> gmaxwell: wait, so for N-of-N you can compute the combined key offline/non-interactively?
1362 2014-01-28 19:52:51 <maaku> i didn't know that
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1365 2014-01-28 19:54:23 <gmaxwell> maaku: yea, IIRC it's just a sum of pubkeys.
1366 2014-01-28 19:55:09 <justanotheruser> Okay, well I guess my idea of checkmultisighash just got #rekt
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1368 2014-01-28 19:55:55 <maaku> justanotheruser: it's just a matter of cost/benefit
1369 2014-01-28 19:56:06 <sipa> i don't think there's any benefit :)
1370 2014-01-28 19:56:14 <maaku> key revelation is in the scriptSig, so there isn't much benefit
1371 2014-01-28 19:56:18 aynstein has joined
1372 2014-01-28 19:56:19 <sipa> (apart from saving 13 bytes per key in the coordination protocol)
1373 2014-01-28 19:56:26 cypherdial has joined
1374 2014-01-28 19:56:52 <justanotheruser> sipa: so about 0.0000000001btc is saved ;)
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1395 2014-01-28 20:05:42 <chichov> is there an efficient look-up table or other measure deployed for efficient transaction lookup?
1396 2014-01-28 20:06:16 <sipa> chichov: we don't need to look up transactions :)
1397 2014-01-28 20:06:21 <chichov> it seems rather costly to scan through the whole blockchain to find just one transaction and verify a signature
1398 2014-01-28 20:06:26 <sipa> but there's a rather efficient database with just unspent outputs
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1401 2014-01-28 20:06:33 <chichov> well, miners have to
1402 2014-01-28 20:06:37 <sipa> which is exactly what is needed during verification
1403 2014-01-28 20:06:41 <sipa> no, they don't
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1405 2014-01-28 20:06:52 <chichov> oh, so they do have a database of unspent outputs
1406 2014-01-28 20:06:59 <sipa> every full node does, yes
1407 2014-01-28 20:07:06 <chichov> now that's interesting
1408 2014-01-28 20:07:09 <sipa> it's in $DATADIR/chainstate
1409 2014-01-28 20:07:38 <chichov> what is precisely stored in such an entry?
1410 2014-01-28 20:07:52 <chichov> the complete unspent transaction information?
1411 2014-01-28 20:08:03 <sipa> no, only the transaction outputs
1412 2014-01-28 20:08:07 <sipa> and only those that are not yet spent
1413 2014-01-28 20:08:29 <gmaxwell> all the data which is needed to verify an incoming block that spends the transaction, and nothing more.
1414 2014-01-28 20:08:49 <sipa> (plus a bit of metadata about the transaction itself, like whether it's a coinbase, in which block height it was included, and which version)
1415 2014-01-28 20:08:59 <chichov> so eg the hash of the transaction and the unspent output parts
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1417 2014-01-28 20:09:13 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/coins.h#L17
1418 2014-01-28 20:09:19 <sipa> use the source, luke
1419 2014-01-28 20:09:33 <chichov> hehe, was about to ask for one
1420 2014-01-28 20:09:54 <chichov> I suppose this is the class for the chainstate encoding?
1421 2014-01-28 20:10:00 <sipa> correct
1422 2014-01-28 20:10:11 <chichov> excellent, thanks for the feedback
1423 2014-01-28 20:10:17 <sipa> a CCoins object is the data about a transaction that is kept
1424 2014-01-28 20:10:27 <sipa> the database is just a txid -> CCoins map
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1428 2014-01-28 20:13:38 <chichov> one thing remains a mystery
1429 2014-01-28 20:13:50 <chichov> an output is referenced through the hash of the transaction and the index
1430 2014-01-28 20:13:58 <sipa> correct
1431 2014-01-28 20:14:05 <chichov> however, I don't see any hash of the transaction here
1432 2014-01-28 20:14:18 <sipa> correct :)
1433 2014-01-28 20:14:22 <sipa> 20:59:12 < sipa> the database is just a txid -> CCoins map
1434 2014-01-28 20:14:34 <chichov> only the version, transaction type, address and index
1435 2014-01-28 20:14:39 <sipa> CCoins does not encapsulate the key of the database entry, only the value
1436 2014-01-28 20:14:44 <chichov> oh, txid is the hash?
1437 2014-01-28 20:14:47 <sipa> yes
1438 2014-01-28 20:14:50 <chichov> aaawww
1439 2014-01-28 20:14:56 <sipa> transaction id = SHA256^2(tx)
1440 2014-01-28 20:14:59 <chichov> now it's complete
1441 2014-01-28 20:15:02 <sipa> :)
1442 2014-01-28 20:15:19 <chichov> alright, all the building blocks are right here then
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1445 2014-01-28 20:16:00 <chichov> else lookups would be terribly inefficient
1446 2014-01-28 20:16:06 <sipa> very much so
1447 2014-01-28 20:16:25 <chichov> thanks for the help, I can continue with my report then
1448 2014-01-28 20:16:59 <chichov> I was just wondering, once I'm done with my description of the bitcoin architecture, is there a place where I can submit it for a peer review?
1449 2014-01-28 20:16:59 <sipa> yw :)
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1451 2014-01-28 20:17:27 <sipa> put it on the bitcoin.it wiki, and ask on the bitcoin-development list and/or forum for people to look at it?
1452 2014-01-28 20:17:51 <chichov> alright, sounds like a fine solution
1453 2014-01-28 20:18:11 Ursium has quit (Quit: Ursium)
1454 2014-01-28 20:19:04 <chichov> I'm working on a precise and comprehensible description of the core spec (without going in-depth on the P2P architecture)
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1456 2014-01-28 20:19:23 NormDePloome has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1457 2014-01-28 20:20:08 <chichov> and I'd be simply glad if my work could go through the process of public scrutiny and maybe function as a helpful future reference
1458 2014-01-28 20:20:51 <chichov> not to digress too much - I'll follow your advice
1459 2014-01-28 20:20:54 <chichov> thanks for the help
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1467 2014-01-28 20:31:15 <Luke-Jr> I'm seeing every 4 bytes of byte-data flipped accessing PCI-Express memory; is this likely because my host is LE, or is the PCI-E device actually putting the bytes out of order?
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1474 2014-01-28 20:35:19 <EasyAt> Does the reference client prefer to preserve anonymity by not collecting dust that is unnecessary to spend on a TX, or does it gather a bunch of dust in TXs to minimuze the UTXO set?
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1480 2014-01-28 20:36:49 <Luke-Jr> EasyAt: bitcoin is never anonymous
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1482 2014-01-28 20:37:31 <EasyAt> I didn't say it was
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1484 2014-01-28 20:38:14 <EasyAt> My question is whether it spends dust that isn't necessary in a TX in order to minimize UTXO even if it tains a few addresses
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1498 2014-01-28 20:49:25 <maaku> EasyAt: the reference client doesn't try to preserve anonymity at all, other than the bare minimum of using a random change address
1499 2014-01-28 20:50:02 <maaku> assume all coins in you wallet are tainted with all other coins in you wallet (unless you applied the coin control patch and micromanage)
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1504 2014-01-28 20:52:59 <EasyAt> Oh neat
1505 2014-01-28 20:53:05 <EasyAt> will the coin control patch be merged in/
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1509 2014-01-28 20:55:40 <EasyAt> Nvm, found the relevant bitcointalk thread
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1513 2014-01-28 21:02:38 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: fuck no it won't.
1514 2014-01-28 21:02:44 <gmaxwell> ... because it was merged months ago.
1515 2014-01-28 21:03:16 <EasyAt> heh
1516 2014-01-28 21:04:00 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: and its been many months since release.....
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1548 2014-01-28 21:41:35 <alex_fun> hello, in checkpoints file there is line // * estimated number of transactions per day after checkpoint , but how this estimated number is calculated?
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1557 2014-01-28 21:53:48 <diki> what exactly is a rendezvous point as it pertains ecdsa?
1558 2014-01-28 21:54:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|alex_fun: there's no set formula, as far as I know
1559 2014-01-28 21:54:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I think it's roughly just set to "how many transactions per day do we have these days"
1560 2014-01-28 21:54:44 <alex_fun> michagogo|cloud: so how it suppose to work?
1561 2014-01-28 21:55:02 <alex_fun> interesting
1562 2014-01-28 21:55:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(I don't know what that value is used for or what implications it actually has)
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1564 2014-01-28 21:56:35 <alex_fun> michagogo|cloud:  well before there is code that says static const CCheckpointData data = {         &mapCheckpoints,
1565 2014-01-28 21:56:39 drayah has joined
1566 2014-01-28 21:56:51 <sipa> alex_fun: the progress bar uses as formula "how many transactions have we processed of the total estimated number"
1567 2014-01-28 21:57:24 <sipa> where the total estimated number uses the last checkpoint's info + time_in_dayes * transactions_per_day
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1569 2014-01-28 22:00:41 <alex_fun> pretty simple and logical :)
1570 2014-01-28 22:00:44 <alex_fun> ty
1571 2014-01-28 22:03:53 <realazthat> is testnet getting like 2 blocks a second?
1572 2014-01-28 22:03:58 <sipa> :o
1573 2014-01-28 22:04:07 <alex_fun> much richness :D
1574 2014-01-28 22:04:08 <realazthat> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/q/getblockcount
1575 2014-01-28 22:04:18 <sipa> such blocks, much test
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1577 2014-01-28 22:04:30 <realazthat> ok, sometimes slower
1578 2014-01-28 22:04:36 <realazthat> but a few a minute
1579 2014-01-28 22:04:40 <realazthat> why?
1580 2014-01-28 22:05:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|realazthat: someone's pointing a lot of hashpower at it
1581 2014-01-28 22:05:12 <realazthat> haha
1582 2014-01-28 22:05:15 <realazthat> OK
1583 2014-01-28 22:05:22 <realazthat> can someone send me some testnet coins
1584 2014-01-28 22:05:30 <sipa> does faucet not work?
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1586 2014-01-28 22:05:42 <realazthat> one didn't, the other said payouts twice a day
1587 2014-01-28 22:05:54 <realazthat> bit impatient
1588 2014-01-28 22:06:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|realazthat: just post an address
1589 2014-01-28 22:06:08 <realazthat> mkUiC8TKUdpEx6HFQRRpbwnUe7zRPSdT5K
1590 2014-01-28 22:06:15 <realazthat> testnet address
1591 2014-01-28 22:06:32 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|waits for his testnet node to start
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1594 2014-01-28 22:07:18 <diki> sipa:Did you see this? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421842.0
1595 2014-01-28 22:07:32 <sipa> no
1596 2014-01-28 22:07:34 <alex_fun> sipa so how does your code calculate number of transactions per day without relying on block explorer?
1597 2014-01-28 22:07:59 <alex_fun> yes some wallets hacking software, imo can be fake else why sell it for 2 btc :)
1598 2014-01-28 22:08:26 <diki> the correct term is private key bruteforcer but meh :)
1599 2014-01-28 22:08:39 <sipa> alex_fun: it doesn't calculate
1600 2014-01-28 22:08:44 <sipa> alex_fun: it's hardcoded in the client
1601 2014-01-28 22:08:54 <sipa> diki: meh
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1603 2014-01-28 22:09:15 <diki> I did wonder what a rendezvous point is though
1604 2014-01-28 22:09:18 <alex_fun> sipa function to supply transactions per day is hard coded?
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1607 2014-01-28 22:09:36 <sipa> alex_fun: you just asked by pointing to the source code...
1608 2014-01-28 22:09:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|alex_fun: Yes, that's the 60000 that you originally asked about
1609 2014-01-28 22:09:46 <alex_fun> oki oki
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1615 2014-01-28 22:15:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|realazthat: fired a bunch of coin your way
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1618 2014-01-28 22:17:32 <realazthat> michagogo|cloud: thanks man :D
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1620 2014-01-28 22:20:08 <realazthat> awesome, my deposit system worked nicely :D
1621 2014-01-28 22:20:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|realazthat: did it?
1622 2014-01-28 22:20:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Note that those coins are mined
1623 2014-01-28 22:20:41 <realazthat> does that matter?
1624 2014-01-28 22:20:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|They're unspendable for 100 blocks
1625 2014-01-28 22:20:59 <realazthat> ah OK, I didn't know that
1626 2014-01-28 22:21:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(120 blocks in any released bitcoind)
1627 2014-01-28 22:21:12 oleganza has joined
1628 2014-01-28 22:21:20 <realazthat> is that the protocol, or is that bitcoind ?
1629 2014-01-28 22:21:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Protocol is 100
1630 2014-01-28 22:21:44 <realazthat> ok, I didn't know that hummm
1631 2014-01-28 22:21:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bitcoind v0.8.6 and earlier is 120
1632 2014-01-28 22:22:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Future bitcoind will be 101
1633 2014-01-28 22:22:22 <realazthat> ok
1634 2014-01-28 22:22:31 aielima has joined
1635 2014-01-28 22:22:36 <realazthat> mmm I wonder, how can I tell in the RPC API if it is unspendable
1636 2014-01-28 22:22:59 <realazthat> I guess if it has vin coinbase?
1637 2014-01-28 22:23:22 <diki> [00:10:56] <michagogo|cloud> Future bitcoind will be 101<- what for?
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1640 2014-01-28 22:23:33 <brisque> diki: that's almost certainly nonsense.
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1645 2014-01-28 22:26:38 <andytoshi> brisque: commit bf3a20a6 by gmaxwell makes the change from 120 to 101
1646 2014-01-28 22:26:42 Muis has joined
1647 2014-01-28 22:26:58 <andytoshi> "we are not seeing any huge reorgs that would justify this paranoia"
1648 2014-01-28 22:27:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2947
1649 2014-01-28 22:27:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hey, did Github tweak their interface?
1650 2014-01-28 22:27:56 <brisque> andytoshi: not what I meant to reply to, I know the reorg limit was changed. I was commenting on the "weak private key" cracker the user posted before.
1651 2014-01-28 22:28:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|brisque: ahhhh
1652 2014-01-28 22:28:28 scoofy has joined
1653 2014-01-28 22:28:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, yep
1654 2014-01-28 22:28:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://github.com/blog/1767-redesigned-conversations
1655 2014-01-28 22:28:39 <andytoshi> ahh, that makes much more sense :P
1656 2014-01-28 22:28:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(today)
1657 2014-01-28 22:28:41 ralphtheninja has joined
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1659 2014-01-28 22:30:16 <brisque> andytoshi: I don't even understand the (false) explanation the user is trying to give. what on earth do they think a "rendezvous point" is?
1660 2014-01-28 22:31:05 <gmaxwell> brisque: are you familar with how fast collision finding algorithims like pollard rho work? he's apeing that, I think.
1661 2014-01-28 22:32:03 aynstein has joined
1662 2014-01-28 22:32:09 <gmaxwell> wow, yet another totally worthless WP article on a cryptography subject.
1663 2014-01-28 22:32:48 <gmaxwell> people keep writing these things that seem to understand crypto exclusively from reverse engineering software or something, lots of myopic stuff.
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1667 2014-01-28 22:34:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Testnet difficulty just quadrupled again
1668 2014-01-28 22:36:16 <sipa> gmaxwell: it's remarkable how much people extrapolate from just knowing RSA at the basic level
1669 2014-01-28 22:36:41 <sipa> "signing == encrypting with the private key instead of the public one"
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1691 2014-01-28 22:56:01 <brisque> gmaxwell: I'm not convinced, especially how the user is presenting it.
1692 2014-01-28 22:56:42 <sipa> iirc, it requires around 2**140 operations to brute force a 256-bit ec key
1693 2014-01-28 22:56:48 sensorii has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1694 2014-01-28 22:56:49 <gmaxwell> brisque: oh it's gibberish, but I'm just saying that his discription is inspired by how pollard rho works.
1695 2014-01-28 22:57:49 <alex_fun> 2**140 thats kinda alot
1696 2014-01-28 22:58:41 <alex_fun> sipa whats the reason behind  60000.0     // * estimated number of transactions per day after checkpoint hard coding it at 60,000? usually every day there can be any number of transactions
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1699 2014-01-28 22:59:35 <sipa> it's just a guess
1700 2014-01-28 22:59:38 <sipa> nothing more
1701 2014-01-28 22:59:44 <sipa> an estimate based on history
1702 2014-01-28 22:59:51 <alex_fun> the previous system that used block hash seems to be very logical
1703 2014-01-28 22:59:51 <sipa> nothing breaks if it is wrong
1704 2014-01-28 23:00:02 <sipa> it was also horribly inaccurate
1705 2014-01-28 23:00:07 <gmaxwell> brisque: e.g. you define some subset of EC points as 'distinguished' (doesn't matter how you define distinguished, just that you can reconize distinguished points).  Then you start at a point and increment it (e.g. point addition with the generator, if you like) until you find a distinguished point. If you then save a table of these arcs, then later you can take a random pubkey and advance it until you hit a distinguished point in your ...
1706 2014-01-28 23:00:13 <gmaxwell> ... table. When you've done that restart at the starting point for that distinguished point, and you'll recover the private key.
1707 2014-01-28 23:00:17 <alex_fun> I just wonder how this new addition futher improve security of checkpoints
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1709 2014-01-28 23:00:31 <sipa> checkpoints DO NOT provide security
1710 2014-01-28 23:00:36 <sipa> that is not their purpose
1711 2014-01-28 23:00:44 <gmaxwell> all this works fine, and its why you can find a private key with far fewer than 2^256 operations.
1712 2014-01-28 23:00:52 <gmaxwell> alex_fun: please go away.
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1715 2014-01-28 23:01:06 <alex_fun> sipa then what is their purpose?
1716 2014-01-28 23:01:09 <sipa> they are only there because otherwise we can't safely skip signature operations
1717 2014-01-28 23:01:13 <alex_fun> oki
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1719 2014-01-28 23:01:33 <sipa> and that os because of an implementation detail, which can be fixed
1720 2014-01-28 23:01:41 <sipa> i hope we can get rid of checkpoints entirely
1721 2014-01-28 23:01:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: When headers-first is ready, do you plan to yank the checkpoints?
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1723 2014-01-28 23:02:02 <sipa> even just to prevent people from misunderstanding where bitcoin's security comes from
1724 2014-01-28 23:02:09 <alex_fun> sipa yes I think they are not required as much
1725 2014-01-28 23:02:35 <alex_fun> bitcoin security come from honestly  of largest miners?
1726 2014-01-28 23:02:41 <alex_fun> *honesty
1727 2014-01-28 23:02:41 <sipa> depends
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1730 2014-01-28 23:02:52 <sipa> and never largest, just majority
1731 2014-01-28 23:03:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(of hashpower)
1732 2014-01-28 23:03:18 <sipa> but most of the security really comes from the fact that every bitcoin node effectively verifies everything
1733 2014-01-28 23:03:35 <alex_fun> sipa what do u mean by that?
1734 2014-01-28 23:03:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|s/no/full no/
1735 2014-01-28 23:03:58 <sipa> your bitcoind or bitcoin-qt will not accept any invalid block or invalid transaction
1736 2014-01-28 23:04:03 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: a thin client isn't a node in the bitcoin network, really, it's just a client.
1737 2014-01-28 23:04:09 <alex_fun> I though real security is based on number of confirms and well alert people who can tell others that someone is double spending at large
1738 2014-01-28 23:04:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: point.
1739 2014-01-28 23:04:35 <sipa> well, there is one tiny thing that you just cannot verify locally
1740 2014-01-28 23:04:39 <sipa> thay is double spending
1741 2014-01-28 23:04:54 <sipa> as you cannot possibly know what is happening on the other side of the earth
1742 2014-01-28 23:05:01 <alex_fun> sipa so how would you know it then? unless say casino discovers it?
1743 2014-01-28 23:05:01 <sipa> that is what confirmations are for
1744 2014-01-28 23:05:12 <sipa> you don't
1745 2014-01-28 23:05:22 <sipa> you just accept that nodes may disagree
1746 2014-01-28 23:05:24 <sipa> and that is fine
1747 2014-01-28 23:05:25 <alex_fun> yes I found java calculator that calculate prob of double spend, very handy
1748 2014-01-28 23:05:40 smash_ has joined
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1750 2014-01-28 23:05:56 <sipa> the block chain with proof of work guarantees that the chance for disagreement about the past decreases exponentially
1751 2014-01-28 23:06:20 <sipa> assuming no single attacker has access to a close to 50% hashrate
1752 2014-01-28 23:06:46 <alex_fun> sipa yes and in bitcoin some cloud hash might have 51% soon
1753 2014-01-28 23:06:55 <alex_fun> or might not of course
1754 2014-01-28 23:07:07 <sipa> but you must understand that even with someone having 90% of the hashrate
1755 2014-01-28 23:07:12 <sipa> they cannot spend your coins
1756 2014-01-28 23:07:22 <sipa> they cannot produce more than 25 btc per block
1757 2014-01-28 23:07:33 <alex_fun> hehe true
1758 2014-01-28 23:07:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Well, they can if you consider taking back bitcoins that they've paid you :-P
1759 2014-01-28 23:07:42 <alex_fun> they can spent a bit, like 1 day output
1760 2014-01-28 23:07:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|s/consider/count/
1761 2014-01-28 23:08:39 <sipa> they can rewrite history, sure
1762 2014-01-28 23:08:44 <alex_fun> 25 per block * 10 min say they get 12 btc each block thats 72 btc per hour
1763 2014-01-28 23:08:49 <sipa> so they can make you believe you received something and undo it
1764 2014-01-28 23:08:54 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1765 2014-01-28 23:08:57 <sipa> but they cannot ever spend your coins
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1768 2014-01-28 23:09:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|alex_fun: 300 BTC per hour.
1769 2014-01-28 23:09:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|uh
1770 2014-01-28 23:09:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|150*
1771 2014-01-28 23:09:54 <alex_fun> 12*6 = 72 , how did u get 300?
1772 2014-01-28 23:10:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|25*6
1773 2014-01-28 23:10:19 <alex_fun> oki I meant if they have over 50% but not 100% obviously
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1775 2014-01-28 23:10:39 <sipa> if you have over 50%, you can collude and get all blocks
1776 2014-01-28 23:10:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If they have significantly over 50%, they can get 100% of the blocks
1777 2014-01-28 23:10:41 <alex_fun> so they try to double spend 1 million usd daily
1778 2014-01-28 23:10:49 <sipa> it would ve very obvious, thoufh
1779 2014-01-28 23:10:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|By refusing to accept non-theirs blocks
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1781 2014-01-28 23:11:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, there wouldn't be "getting 12 btc per block"
1782 2014-01-28 23:11:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Any block they get, they get 25 BTC for
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1784 2014-01-28 23:11:45 <alex_fun> yes they get blocks as % of their hash power from total of blocks
1785 2014-01-28 23:11:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right
1786 2014-01-28 23:12:08 <alex_fun> sipa and how would it be obvious? becouse there is some tool to monitor chain?
1787 2014-01-28 23:12:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But if a miner or colluding group of miners has over 50%, they can get 100% of blocks
1788 2014-01-28 23:12:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|By only mining on top of their own blocks
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1790 2014-01-28 23:12:30 <alex_fun> michagog true, they can reject all other blocks
1791 2014-01-28 23:12:36 <alex_fun> so how come it not happen ?
1792 2014-01-28 23:12:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And it would be obvious because anyone could see that they're only mining on their own blocks
1793 2014-01-28 23:13:00 <alex_fun> ok I got it, so its all depends on exchange and then checkpoints
1794 2014-01-28 23:13:02 <brisque> gmaxwell: we can assume the application is incapable of finding anything of value anyway. the way they are presenting it "don't do anything illegal but buy this and you'll probably be rich lol joking" makes that fairly obvious.
1795 2014-01-28 23:13:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...
1796 2014-01-28 23:13:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|no
1797 2014-01-28 23:13:16 <sipa> alex_fun: the checkpoints do NOT help
1798 2014-01-28 23:13:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Checkpoints do nothing but speed up syncing
1799 2014-01-28 23:13:46 <sipa> when they would actually prevent a reorg back, the network is already conpletely failing
1800 2014-01-28 23:14:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(since checkpoints only go in, in general, thousands of blocks deep)
1801 2014-01-28 23:14:30 <alex_fun> unless u checkpoint very frequently like every 3rd block
1802 2014-01-28 23:14:45 <sipa> alex_fun: if we do that, we can just abolish the blockchain
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1804 2014-01-28 23:14:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|alex_fun: At that point, it becomes very centralized
1805 2014-01-28 23:14:55 <sipa> and let the developers decide what the right blocks are
1806 2014-01-28 23:14:59 <sipa> very simple
1807 2014-01-28 23:15:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And yeah, PoW is no longer needed
1808 2014-01-28 23:15:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: well, maybe not the blockchain
1809 2014-01-28 23:15:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|but certainly mining
1810 2014-01-28 23:15:19 <sipa> much mich cheaper and faster
1811 2014-01-28 23:15:20 <alex_fun> so then what if someone buys tons of asics on top of one they have already and get 1 or 2 largest pools to collida?
1812 2014-01-28 23:15:29 <alex_fun> does new code somehow prevents it?
1813 2014-01-28 23:15:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...
1814 2014-01-28 23:15:35 <alex_fun> *collide
1815 2014-01-28 23:15:41 <sipa> it cannot be prevented at the technical level
1816 2014-01-28 23:15:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|alex_fun: Collude, not collide
1817 2014-01-28 23:15:51 <gmaxwell> brisque: they also appear to be running some kind of pool to pay people for grinding.
1818 2014-01-28 23:15:55 <alex_fun> collude yes
1819 2014-01-28 23:16:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It means, essentially, to work together
1820 2014-01-28 23:16:03 <sipa> without giving up decentralization
1821 2014-01-28 23:16:19 <alex_fun> sipa what if you could invent checkpoint system that is decentralised and consensus based?
1822 2014-01-28 23:16:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|alex_fun: Hmm, your name seems familiar
1823 2014-01-28 23:16:25 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: rather, NOT work together with the rest
1824 2014-01-28 23:16:31 <sipa> alex_fun: that is called a blockchaim
1825 2014-01-28 23:16:39 <EasyAt> alex_fun: A blockchain for checkpoints
1826 2014-01-28 23:16:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, these questions are probably more appropriate for #bitcoin
1827 2014-01-28 23:16:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right
1828 2014-01-28 23:16:55 <brisque> gmaxwell: I saw that too, paying users a total of $48 a day to run a python script.
1829 2014-01-28 23:16:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I guess you could say, to work together against everyone else
1830 2014-01-28 23:16:59 <gmaxwell> brisque: my guess is that they're (1) trying to sucker people to pay for a useless cracking tool, and (2) trying to create a wholesome looking front for trying to get people to burn cpu to crack some particular private keys for them.
1831 2014-01-28 23:17:05 <sipa> alex_fun: the blockchain does exactly what people assume checkpoints are for
1832 2014-01-28 23:17:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google define collude
1833 2014-01-28 23:17:06 <gribble> collude - definition of collude by the Free Online Dictionary ...: <http://www.thefreedictionary.com/collude>; Collude - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster ...: <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collude>; Collusion - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster ...: <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collusion>
1834 2014-01-28 23:17:49 <alex_fun> michagog yes collude aka work together, collide is like collision aka crash
1835 2014-01-28 23:17:52 <alex_fun> I got it, ty
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1837 2014-01-28 23:20:33 <alex_fun> UNIX timestamp of last checkpoint block,       total number of transactions between genesis and last checkpoint                     // (the tx=... number in the SetBestChain debug.log lines), so how this extra params contribute to better checkpointing? I though taking hash of block used for checkpoint is enough, as it cant be faked
1838 2014-01-28 23:20:55 <sipa> no, all that is just for the progressbar estimation
1839 2014-01-28 23:21:06 <sipa> but it is data that depends on the checkpoints
1840 2014-01-28 23:21:12 <sipa> as those are just known pieces
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1842 2014-01-28 23:22:07 <alex_fun> and the progress bar does what? so far I managed to understand how dns seed work in new code
1843 2014-01-28 23:22:23 <sipa> the progress bar shows progress...
1844 2014-01-28 23:22:27 <alex_fun> oki
1845 2014-01-28 23:22:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The progress bar gives GUI users a rough idea of how far along they are in the process of syncing/indexing
1846 2014-01-28 23:23:04 <alex_fun> ok I use linux client so thats why I did not get it :)
1847 2014-01-28 23:23:22 <sipa> you mean the command line client
1848 2014-01-28 23:23:31 <sipa> os doesn't have anything to do with it
1849 2014-01-28 23:23:32 <alex_fun> yes the daemon
1850 2014-01-28 23:23:44 <alex_fun> yes thats also true
1851 2014-01-28 23:23:46 <sipa> it does put progress info in debug.log
1852 2014-01-28 23:23:52 <sipa> any time it connects a block
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1854 2014-01-28 23:24:43 <alex_fun> ok I am starting to get it, its so users dont have to wonder how many hours will synch take, they can see it on progress bar
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1856 2014-01-28 23:27:54 <alex_fun> sipa what if each 3rd get work block - when daemon checks for longest chain and starts building new block it would also receive previous block hash and its somehow tied into POW aka if some client did not use that block hash his solution is rejected by those who did? Only again if this majority is 51% they can reject anything and simply build their chain any way they like right?
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1862 2014-01-28 23:29:53 <gmaxwell> anyone have a dump of x corrids used in the blockchain? we should probably figure out which keys this guy is trying to crak.
1863 2014-01-28 23:29:56 <gmaxwell> er crack
1864 2014-01-28 23:30:14 <sipa> corrids?
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1866 2014-01-28 23:30:23 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/TheGoodLookingJack/efficient-scrypt-kernel/blob/master/generate_even_more_rendezvous_points.py#L193
1867 2014-01-28 23:30:29 <alex_fun> gmaxwell and why would he sell such software if he could really crack any keys?
1868 2014-01-28 23:30:30 <brisque> gmaxwell: I'm more inclined to believe the former. at one point the user is offering half a million dollars to crack that same key in another post.
1869 2014-01-28 23:30:42 <alex_fun> he would rather do it and have alot of btc
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1872 2014-01-28 23:30:58 <brisque> it stands to reason it's one of the addresses with more than half a million dollars in BTC.
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1874 2014-01-28 23:31:19 <brisque> (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=427753.msg4673025#msg4673025)
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1902 2014-01-28 23:53:37 <Ademan-remote> so yeah, my working copy of bitcoin really WAS from 2011... good times
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