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30 2014-01-30 00:36:40 <alex_fun> hello :) how do I calculate how much say 100 btc transaction takes in KB?
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32 2014-01-30 00:36:59 <sipa> the amount is irrelevant
33 2014-01-30 00:37:01 <Apocalyptic> depends on the inputs/outputs, not the amount
34 2014-01-30 00:37:24 <sipa> try the listunspent RPC
35 2014-01-30 00:37:42 <sipa> you need to find enough inputs to cover the amount to send + fees
36 2014-01-30 00:38:04 <alex_fun> well i been told that each transaction aka inputs and outputs take certain %of kb which makes sense
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38 2014-01-30 00:39:19 <alex_fun> The "raw transaction API" was introduced with Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind version 0.7. It gives developers or very sophisticated end-users low-level access to transaction creation and broadcast. Nice
39 2014-01-30 00:39:58 <sipa> every transaction input costs 148-190 bytes
40 2014-01-30 00:40:13 <sipa> for normal pay-to-pubkeyhash outputs
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44 2014-01-30 00:41:02 <alex_fun> so say people playing dice make chain larger? and amount of transaction does not matter?
45 2014-01-30 00:41:24 <sipa> outputs cost 34 bytes
46 2014-01-30 00:41:36 <sipa> every transaction makes the chain larger
47 2014-01-30 00:41:46 <alex_fun> I have read a bit that Maaku seems to came up with some ways to prune chain, yet to understand
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51 2014-01-30 00:42:40 <sipa> that's a misunderstanding
52 2014-01-30 00:43:03 <sipa> pruning the blockchain on disk is possible, and relatively easy to do
53 2014-01-30 00:43:12 <sipa> but it has nothing to do with what he's working on
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55 2014-01-30 00:44:16 <alex_fun> so I see static const unsigned int MAX_BLOCK_SIZE = 1000000; that means 1 block can fit quiet alot of transactions
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60 2014-01-30 00:46:21 <alex_fun> 5260 inputs approx, so what happens if people play alot of dice and trade alot, some inputs will have to wait for new block?
61 2014-01-30 00:46:31 <sipa> s/inputs/transactions/
62 2014-01-30 00:46:35 <sipa> and that's already the case
63 2014-01-30 00:46:40 <sipa> miners decide what they put in blocks
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66 2014-01-30 00:46:45 <nsh> (there was a block of 700k a hour or so ago, which is 70% of that limit)
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68 2014-01-30 00:47:24 <alex_fun> sipa and how its possible to prune chain on disk? run local electrum on your pc? or some more elegant ways?
69 2014-01-30 00:48:13 <alex_fun> if it somehow just store merkel hash of previous blocks but then how to verify coins ownership?
70 2014-01-30 00:48:29 <sipa> not at all
71 2014-01-30 00:48:32 <sipa> it's really easy
72 2014-01-30 00:48:38 <sipa> just don't save it on disk
73 2014-01-30 00:48:44 <sipa> download and verify all blocks
74 2014-01-30 00:48:48 <sipa> but don't remember them
75 2014-01-30 00:48:59 <sipa> you don't actually need the block data afterwards anymore
76 2014-01-30 00:49:10 <alex_fun> ok so just use dabatase?
77 2014-01-30 00:49:15 <sipa> we already do
78 2014-01-30 00:49:21 <sipa> we don't need the block data for anything
79 2014-01-30 00:49:24 <alex_fun> haha so simple and clever
80 2014-01-30 00:49:29 <sipa> ... except for giving it to others
81 2014-01-30 00:49:36 <sipa> which is the reason why we don't implement that yet
82 2014-01-30 00:49:49 <sipa> as others need a way to find peers that have the right blocks still
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84 2014-01-30 00:51:22 <alex_fun> so is transactions wont fit all in 1 block then 1 confirm can take ages - depending on total amount of transcations wanted to be confirmed?
85 2014-01-30 00:51:57 <sipa> if your transaction can't fit in, you'll need to pay more fee
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87 2014-01-30 00:52:23 <alex_fun> so software auto priorities based on fee?
88 2014-01-30 00:52:28 <sipa> miners do
89 2014-01-30 00:52:43 <alex_fun> most miners now days just download win qt and run it
90 2014-01-30 00:52:51 <sipa> lol
91 2014-01-30 00:52:55 <alex_fun> :)
92 2014-01-30 00:52:59 <sipa> there are very few solo miners
93 2014-01-30 00:53:08 <alex_fun> true most are pool
94 2014-01-30 00:53:16 <alex_fun> ooooo
95 2014-01-30 00:53:25 <sipa> yeah, but in any case, the reference client will priorize based on fee per byte
96 2014-01-30 00:53:29 <sipa> when building blocks
97 2014-01-30 00:53:38 <sipa> it's a bit more complex than that
98 2014-01-30 00:53:48 <alex_fun> hahah so clever
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100 2014-01-30 00:54:29 <alex_fun> as 5260 inputs arent alot, if 10,000 people play dice non stop
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102 2014-01-30 00:54:50 <alex_fun> ok then dice have to pay more else winners wait longer
103 2014-01-30 00:55:11 <sipa> it may just become not feasible to do really cheap transactions anymore
104 2014-01-30 00:55:21 <alex_fun> but some people can transact with each other to slow down chain
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107 2014-01-30 00:55:44 <alex_fun> they can keep sending btc at min low fee and else would have to pay more
108 2014-01-30 00:57:05 <alex_fun> what if some people recompile software with really low fee like 1 satoshi, then they can transact with each other and spam network
109 2014-01-30 00:57:12 <alex_fun> how do u get rid of them?
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111 2014-01-30 00:57:34 <alex_fun> or they can even remove fee all together
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129 2014-01-30 01:15:26 <alex_fun> and whats the function of `dsn` seeder, it seems to allow clients to read A records of seed, but what else it can do? :)
130 2014-01-30 01:15:47 <alex_fun> it is handy to update just a records while keeping domain name as tag :)
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137 2014-01-30 01:25:37 <Ademan> http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=1956.15 In case anyone is as curious as I am about proof-of-stake
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147 2014-01-30 01:32:06 <safeman> When a wallet passphrase is introduced, does Bitcoin use the system's encoding?
148 2014-01-30 01:32:47 <alex_fun> seems so
149 2014-01-30 01:33:14 <alex_fun> once encrypted u gotta know password else coins are gone, it updates private key
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151 2014-01-30 01:34:14 <safeman> Yes, but if I encrypt on a system with ASCII, then try to decrypt on a UTF-8 system, it will not be correct
152 2014-01-30 01:34:17 <safeman> Right?
153 2014-01-30 01:34:26 <alex_fun> that I dont know
154 2014-01-30 01:35:12 <andytoshi> UTF-8 is a superset of ascii
155 2014-01-30 01:35:15 <safeman> Right
156 2014-01-30 01:35:22 <andytoshi> so in that specific case you're ok :P
157 2014-01-30 01:35:26 <safeman> What are some other locales though?
158 2014-01-30 01:36:21 <safeman> My real question is this... I encrypted a wallet on Ubuntu 12.04 live, but the passphrase that I recorded is not correct. Is there any chance that Ubuntu 12.04 used some non UTF-8 encoding?
159 2014-01-30 01:36:38 <safeman> The live cd I mean
160 2014-01-30 01:37:05 <andytoshi> good question, but i highly doubt it. i haven't seen anything except utf-8 in many many years
161 2014-01-30 01:37:23 <andytoshi> are you using bitcoin-qt?
162 2014-01-30 01:37:34 <andytoshi> you can probably right-click on the text input and change the encoding
163 2014-01-30 01:37:52 <safeman> Hmm
164 2014-01-30 01:38:14 <lechuga_> hmm
165 2014-01-30 01:38:27 <lechuga_> i shud get a walletnofity whenever i see a txn involving one of my addresses right?
166 2014-01-30 01:38:39 <lechuga_> looks that way from wallet.cpp
167 2014-01-30 01:38:56 <lechuga_> never seems to fire
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169 2014-01-30 01:39:37 <lechuga_> and im an idiot
170 2014-01-30 01:39:41 <lechuga_> nm
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174 2014-01-30 01:43:27 <safeman> I know RTFM right.. but is there a quicker way to test wallet decryption than to send messages to the bitcoin server?
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177 2014-01-30 01:46:56 <andytoshi> what do you mean by bitcoin server?
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180 2014-01-30 01:48:55 <safeman> So the fastest ways of testing wallet decryption that I can find online involves sending "walletpassphrase" messages to bitcoind
181 2014-01-30 01:49:25 <EasyAt> safeman: Do you have a general idea of what the password is?
182 2014-01-30 01:49:27 <andytoshi> ok cool, that's right. but bitcoind is local, there is no overhead in sending messages to it.
183 2014-01-30 01:49:47 <andytoshi> s/no/negligible compared to the passphrase hash rounds/
184 2014-01-30 01:49:50 <safeman> Yeah, but wouldn't it be quicker to check manually
185 2014-01-30 01:50:26 <safeman> So, the decryption algorithm is naturally that slow?
186 2014-01-30 01:50:32 <safeman> like 10 per second?
187 2014-01-30 01:50:37 <safeman> EasyAt: Yes
188 2014-01-30 01:50:50 <andytoshi> that's right, it does however many rounds it needs to to hit 0.1s on the system you encrypted it with
189 2014-01-30 01:51:10 <safeman> So, if you encrypted it on a slow machine...
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191 2014-01-30 01:51:19 <safeman> In the case of a CD-rom..?
192 2014-01-30 01:51:19 <andytoshi> it also has a minimum
193 2014-01-30 01:51:32 <andytoshi> but it's the cpu that'll be the bottleneck here, the CDROM doesn't matter
194 2014-01-30 01:51:41 <safeman> Yeah nevermind I see
195 2014-01-30 01:51:57 <safeman> That is scrypt right?
196 2014-01-30 01:52:40 <EasyAt> I've done something similar. Ended up writing a little cracker. I had switched a capital/non capital letter in the exact same place twice in a row
197 2014-01-30 01:53:23 <safeman> I tried out the cracker that somebody wrote in ruby
198 2014-01-30 01:53:29 <safeman> Ran it for a day but no luck
199 2014-01-30 01:54:25 <EasyAt> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_encryption
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207 2014-01-30 02:03:32 <EasyAt> I am curious why the reference client adjust the number of rounds based on the computer you are on when you encrypted. The attack most likely won't be using you rmachine to crack it
208 2014-01-30 02:03:32 <EasyAt> s/attack/attacker
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210 2014-01-30 02:04:52 <Emcy> in what way does it do that
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212 2014-01-30 02:05:10 <Emcy> number of AES rounds?
213 2014-01-30 02:06:30 <Emcy> oh....so wallets crpyted on weak machines are weaker?
214 2014-01-30 02:07:10 <EasyAt> This master key is then encrypted with AES-256-CBC with a key derived from the passphrase using SHA512 and OpenSSL's EVP_BytesToKey and a dynamic number of rounds determined by the speed of the machine
215 2014-01-30 02:07:10 <EasyAt> From the wiki
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217 2014-01-30 02:08:21 <EasyAt> Number of sha rounds, no?
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221 2014-01-30 02:10:35 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: yes, up to a limit.
222 2014-01-30 02:10:39 <gmaxwell> er Emcy
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224 2014-01-30 02:10:49 <andytoshi> EasyAt: the idea is to get the highest number of rounds possible without irritating the user, i suppose
225 2014-01-30 02:10:58 <Emcy> hmm
226 2014-01-30 02:10:59 <andytoshi> Emcy: i mean
227 2014-01-30 02:10:59 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: yep.
228 2014-01-30 02:11:03 <Emcy> lol
229 2014-01-30 02:11:14 <Emcy> i assume the numbers mean "weaker" is irrelevant in this context
230 2014-01-30 02:11:24 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: one of you is going to have to change your name. I suggest asyAtEay:
231 2014-01-30 02:11:50 <Emcy> just tab on two letters lazy bones
232 2014-01-30 02:12:04 <EasyAt> srsly
233 2014-01-30 02:13:12 <gmaxwell> Emcy: there is a minimum number of 25,000 rounds which I think was basically the number we got on the slowest pratical desktop machine we could find. (like, some atom somthing another).. so if you're on a really slow machine it'll just get slow instead of less secure.
234 2014-01-30 02:14:23 <Ademan> alex_fun: sorry I didn't see your PM (for the future, I prefer not to receive PMs)
235 2014-01-30 02:14:50 <alex_fun> well also POS if offtopic here
236 2014-01-30 02:14:51 <alex_fun> :D
237 2014-01-30 02:14:57 <gmaxwell> I'd kinda wanted to split it into two steps, e.g. a second step that gets done only the first time during a session that you unlock it, then a 100ms step based on the memory cached copy of the first.. but there is basically no limit to how much you can overdesign this sort of thing.
238 2014-01-30 02:15:00 <alex_fun> so how to discuss it with you then?
239 2014-01-30 02:15:14 <alex_fun> *is
240 2014-01-30 02:15:28 <Emcy> i dont understand why you need more than one run thru of AES
241 2014-01-30 02:15:32 <Emcy> what about the protons......
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243 2014-01-30 02:16:02 <Ademan> gmaxwell: If you have a moment, do you mind looking at http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=1956.msg17697#msg17697 ? It appears that it's only rational to mine other chains if you can be certain(?) that you won't end up as the end-of-chain. At first glance that seems like a pretty solid defense. Do you have any thoughts on that?
244 2014-01-30 02:16:11 <Emcy> oh it relates to how fast you can crack an unknown pass, i bet
245 2014-01-30 02:16:17 <EasyAt> Emcy: It's multiple sha rounds... to make password cracking slower. Not multiple AES rounds
246 2014-01-30 02:16:20 <Ademan> alex_fun: true, right now when people are actually talking I probably shouldn't have brought it up...
247 2014-01-30 02:16:32 <andytoshi> Emcy: yeah, user passphrases don't have nearly as much entropy as the full aes keyspace
248 2014-01-30 02:16:43 <Emcy> righto
249 2014-01-30 02:16:47 <alex_fun> Ademan well do u want to talk about it in PM? :D
250 2014-01-30 02:16:54 * andytoshi has patched his client to output the number of rounds out of curiosity..
251 2014-01-30 02:17:01 <EasyAt> andytoshi: hehe
252 2014-01-30 02:17:11 <Ademan> alex_fun: I'd like to involve as many people as possible, maybe #peercoin?
253 2014-01-30 02:17:16 <alex_fun> oki
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255 2014-01-30 02:17:41 <Emcy> does the crypto take salt from anywhere?
256 2014-01-30 02:17:46 <Emcy> mouse noise or something
257 2014-01-30 02:18:09 <EasyAt> If hash rounds are dependant on the machine is a salt necessary anymore?
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260 2014-01-30 02:19:24 <alex_fun> also who here knows how exacty diff adjustment managed to calculate timestamps to adjust itself?
261 2014-01-30 02:19:31 <Luke-Jr> EasyAt: those solve two unrelated problems
262 2014-01-30 02:19:32 <alex_fun> *manages
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264 2014-01-30 02:19:45 <andytoshi> 118856 rounds with my old laptop (core 2 duo). will reencrypt with an i7..
265 2014-01-30 02:19:55 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: it doesn't. miners choose timestamps.
266 2014-01-30 02:20:13 <alex_fun> Luke-Jr: but then they can chear
267 2014-01-30 02:20:16 <alex_fun> cheat
268 2014-01-30 02:20:41 <EasyAt> Luke-Jr: Well I could have 2 wallets I am cracking on. Normally a salt is added to the pw so that 1 attempt can't be applied to both wallets. Since they have a different number of rounds won't that serve the same purpose
269 2014-01-30 02:20:41 <andytoshi> 258382 rounds, more than double
270 2014-01-30 02:20:53 <alex_fun> I read before its possible to cheat if you submit time stamps a bit earlier
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275 2014-01-30 02:21:46 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: they could, yes, but not in a way that's very useful
276 2014-01-30 02:22:02 <Luke-Jr> EasyAt: no.
277 2014-01-30 02:22:11 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: no the entropy of the round counts is very low, its not a good salt. The bitcoin wallet encryption has a (IIRC) 128 bit random salt in any case.
278 2014-01-30 02:22:19 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: making the timestamps earlier makes difficulty go UP, not down
279 2014-01-30 02:22:28 <Emcy> andytoshi is that all IPC improvement
280 2014-01-30 02:22:28 <EasyAt> gmaxwell: That makes sense
281 2014-01-30 02:22:29 <alex_fun> true
282 2014-01-30 02:22:46 <Luke-Jr> plus, 100 rounds includes 50 rounds half way through..
283 2014-01-30 02:22:57 <Emcy> i benchmarked an athlon xp against an i7 afew days ago, same clocks the i7 had double the IPC
284 2014-01-30 02:23:10 <alex_fun> Luke-Jr: so when there is new get work issued - how node knows whether to increase diff of POW solution or keep it same?
285 2014-01-30 02:23:12 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: and if you put your timestamp more than 2 hours in the future, nodes won't accept it until it's within 2 hours
286 2014-01-30 02:23:15 <Emcy> and that was just one core
287 2014-01-30 02:23:17 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: true, though its common to include the parameters in the input to prevent that kind of truncation
288 2014-01-30 02:23:43 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, then it's just using it as a (weak) salt too
289 2014-01-30 02:23:59 <gmaxwell> I dunno if the openssl evp stuff does that, but that was one of the changes that I had that encrypted bip32 master seed thing make.
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291 2014-01-30 02:24:09 <andytoshi> Emcy: not sure. the 4th gen i-series has some cool ipc stuff but this i think is a consequence of having 8 cores instead of 2
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293 2014-01-30 02:24:32 <Emcy> i found my old seti@home folder, i used to put out a unit in ~70hrs on a pentium, the i7 did one in 40 mins, so nominally ~10 mins per unit.
294 2014-01-30 02:24:36 <Emcy> such nostalgia
295 2014-01-30 02:28:54 <Emcy> i dont think the haswells are much mroe efficient than ivy bridge....intel seems to have let thier foot off the pedal since AMD flubbed thier chip
296 2014-01-30 02:29:29 <Emcy> but id like to see what AMD can really do with the APU stuff and heterogenous compute
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309 2014-01-30 02:36:43 <alex_fun> Luke-Jr: ok I think I figured it out. - when diff rises and max it can rise in code is set to say 4x, it needs self adjust many times, as per y blocks that it uses for time stamp samples. so what if diff mad adjustment is set to sat 100000x and adjusts every 9 blocks, then after 9 blocks it simply reaches its natural maximum? can it be that simple? :)
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312 2014-01-30 02:37:48 <alex_fun> this way it can be more accurate in terms of rewards per hash submitted :)
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452 2014-01-30 05:11:24 <jcorgan> what's with the random nicks that just joined #bitcoin
453 2014-01-30 05:11:33 <jcorgan> ah, sorry, that was for ops
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462 2014-01-30 05:22:12 justanotheruser1 is now known as justanotheruser
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469 2014-01-30 05:34:27 <swulf--> jgarzik: would you approve me for the bitcoin mailing list?
470 2014-01-30 05:35:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|swulf--: I don't think it needs approval, does it?
471 2014-01-30 05:35:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(It didn't for me, afaicr...)
472 2014-01-30 05:35:40 <swulf--> i subscribed but it said... "Your subscription request has been received, and will soon be acted upon. Depending on the configuration of this mailing list, your subscription request may have to be first confirmed by you via email, or approved by the list moderator."
473 2014-01-30 05:35:49 <swulf--> and since I haven't receied an email, I presume a moderator has to approve the request?
474 2014-01-30 05:36:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't think so
475 2014-01-30 05:36:13 <swulf--> hrm...
476 2014-01-30 05:36:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't think it sends another email
477 2014-01-30 05:37:32 aynstein has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
478 2014-01-30 05:37:47 disident has joined
479 2014-01-30 05:37:53 <swulf--> All right, thanks
480 2014-01-30 05:40:53 AndrewJackson has joined
481 2014-01-30 05:42:43 <swulf--> hmm
482 2014-01-30 05:42:44 [Author] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
483 2014-01-30 05:42:49 <swulf--> seems like all my requests to subscribe are ignored
484 2014-01-30 05:42:53 ThomasV has joined
485 2014-01-30 05:43:20 [Author] has joined
486 2014-01-30 05:43:30 <swulf--> In the past, at one time I got dropped because my mailserver was offline for some time. I got some bitcoin-development-bounces email that I had be unsubscribed. Can't seem to re-sub
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490 2014-01-30 05:54:45 <swulf--> ah, finally
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526 2014-01-30 06:59:35 <maaku> how do you force acceptance of a non-standard transaction type into the mempool?
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654 2014-01-30 08:56:03 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: FYI, KB does exist as 1024 ;)
655 2014-01-30 08:56:07 mynameis has joined
656 2014-01-30 08:56:11 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: officially?
657 2014-01-30 08:56:17 <Luke-Jr> yes
658 2014-01-30 08:56:32 <wumpus> wikipedia doesn't mention it :(
659 2014-01-30 08:57:09 <Luke-Jr> Wikipedia has biases
660 2014-01-30 08:57:29 <Luke-Jr> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix does mention it, though
661 2014-01-30 08:57:35 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
662 2014-01-30 08:57:36 <Luke-Jr> at least in the table on the right, JEDEC standard
663 2014-01-30 08:58:06 <wumpus> yes it has certainly biases, also against bitcoin, but for something like unit's you'd expect they would get over themselves
664 2014-01-30 08:58:14 <wumpus> right
665 2014-01-30 09:00:38 <wumpus> in any case, feel free to update that RPC documentation, 1024 versus 1000 is a much smaller issue than people thinking the settxfee is *for the total transaction*, I re-did that change because it was lost along the way, I didn't intend to make it a controversial point...
666 2014-01-30 09:02:55 porquilho has joined
667 2014-01-30 09:04:41 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: nah, not arguing at all - just wanted to let you know the standard does exist :p
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673 2014-01-30 09:15:50 <abrkn> swulf: did you get a chance to review my bip32 code? i'm hesitant to put it into production. would suck to lose private keys...
674 2014-01-30 09:17:53 <sneak> please don't use the power of 2 values for the value prefixes
675 2014-01-30 09:18:23 <sneak> it's anachronistic and is not what those prefixes mean. it's a "standard" that should have died years ago but computer people love meaningless tradition
676 2014-01-30 09:18:35 jtcwang has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
677 2014-01-30 09:18:55 <sneak> if you must refer to those values use "kibi" "mebi" "gibi" etc, but don't even do that if you can avoid it
678 2014-01-30 09:19:23 <sneak> abide by SI, it will serve you well
679 2014-01-30 09:19:50 <wumpus> stop preaching to the choir
680 2014-01-30 09:20:33 <sneak> that's like, my trademark
681 2014-01-30 09:20:48 <wumpus> we're all a fan of SI sanity here, why do you think we just went for mBTC, μBTC instead of funny names
682 2014-01-30 09:23:01 tmsk has joined
683 2014-01-30 09:26:03 <sturles> We could give mBTC a more easily pronounced common name. E.g. millicoins or just millis. Like the Euro has cents (hundreds) instead of centieuro.
684 2014-01-30 09:26:33 <wumpus> obviously
685 2014-01-30 09:26:44 <wumpus> you can call it everything you like :)
686 2014-01-30 09:28:48 <wumpus> but what I mean is, see for example the ethereum paper, they try to do funny non-SI denoninations
687 2014-01-30 09:31:03 MagBo_ has joined
688 2014-01-30 09:32:41 <sturles> That's just silly. This is Bitcoin, not Doge.
689 2014-01-30 09:33:12 MagBo_ has left ()
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691 2014-01-30 09:33:17 <sneak> sturles: ?
692 2014-01-30 09:33:39 magbo has joined
693 2014-01-30 09:33:44 <magbo> I want to debug my bitcoin entity parser (I have a bug in script parsing). Is there a transaction dissecter that accepts hex representation and spits out dissected entity?
694 2014-01-30 09:34:17 <sturles> sneak: ?
695 2014-01-30 09:34:29 <sneak> sturles: i was just confused what you were replying to
696 2014-01-30 09:34:33 <sneak> don't mind me
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705 2014-01-30 09:44:10 <magbo> Oh, found the bug but the question still exists: is there a good repl-dissector?
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719 2014-01-30 10:03:56 <TD> good morning
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755 2014-01-30 11:04:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|8:48:17 <maaku> how do you force acceptance of a non-standard transaction type into the mempool?
756 2014-01-30 11:04:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You change the software.
757 2014-01-30 11:05:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|11:09:30 <wumpus> we're all a fan of SI sanity here, why do you think we just went for mBTC, μBTC instead of funny names
758 2014-01-30 11:05:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|*cough*Luke*cough*
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762 2014-01-30 11:07:41 <swulf--> abrkn: I look over it, but I haven't tested it. It looks fine TBH but also, I'm not a cryptographer :)
763 2014-01-30 11:07:45 drayah has joined
764 2014-01-30 11:07:55 <swulf--> It'd be awesome to get gmaxwell to review both of our projects:)
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814 2014-01-30 12:50:18 <_MrB_> suppose I am missing a blk.dat file, can i just copy the one over from another bitcoin instance?
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816 2014-01-30 12:52:25 <sipa> no
817 2014-01-30 12:52:36 mattco1 is now known as mattco
818 2014-01-30 12:52:50 <sipa> but what you can do: shut down both nodes, and copy the entire blocks/ directory over
819 2014-01-30 12:52:54 <sipa> nothing else
820 2014-01-30 12:53:13 <_MrB_> is that the preferred way of dealing with it, other than redownloading everything?
821 2014-01-30 12:53:31 <sipa> i just told you :)
822 2014-01-30 12:53:33 <magbo> _MrB_: sipa answered this already.
823 2014-01-30 12:53:46 <sipa> oh
824 2014-01-30 12:53:50 <sipa> i misread; yes
825 2014-01-30 12:54:21 <_MrB_> ok
826 2014-01-30 12:54:23 <_MrB_> thanks
827 2014-01-30 12:54:27 <sipa> the is one requirement: the node you are copying from must be synced as far as you are or further
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829 2014-01-30 12:55:15 <_MrB_> i was hoping some form of loadblockfile or bootstrap.dat construct would work
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831 2014-01-30 12:55:58 <sipa> yes, but that requires reindexing
832 2014-01-30 12:56:09 <sipa> which takes much more time than just copying the blocks
833 2014-01-30 12:57:02 mattco is now known as hassan1
834 2014-01-30 12:57:51 <_MrB_> k, thanks again
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853 2014-01-30 13:30:41 <stonecoldpat> sipa, how does the reindexing work / do exactly?
854 2014-01-30 13:31:17 <stonecoldpat> does it essentially just store it in an easier to access db?
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858 2014-01-30 13:32:54 <sipa> stonecoldpat: reindexing and validation are basically the same thing
859 2014-01-30 13:33:20 <sipa> stonecoldpat: it means processing transactions in blocks, looking up their inputs, removing them from the database, and adding their outputs to the database
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977 2014-01-30 15:20:32 <andytoshi> hey guys, maybe you all know this but i just discovered in the git-reset manpage how to move commits from master into a topics branch: http://0bin.net/paste/hLgon082L+39b5pV#Xo3qucOVEmxadH3N66H1GPYb/FBZBmy53qKlnGtkWt8=
978 2014-01-30 15:21:00 <andytoshi> (my old way was 'git checkout -b topics && vim .git/refs/heads/master' to just manually fix where master pointed)
979 2014-01-30 15:22:02 <TD> ah yes, i knew about that trick, but i didn't know about 0bin.net so still learned something
980 2014-01-30 15:22:18 <TD> though copy/pasting the key into a public logged channel seems to make the encryption a little pointless :)
981 2014-01-30 15:23:37 <andytoshi> TD: :P they claim it's to cover their own ass in case i'm spreading illegal information. this way they can't/won't censor anything. (apparantly pastebin got into some legal trouble for this)
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997 2014-01-30 16:07:38 <wallet42> anyone has examples tx of pay2sh and pay2msig on blockchain.info to examine?
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1005 2014-01-30 16:31:06 <gavinandresen> wallet42 : https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/3966071
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1008 2014-01-30 16:31:33 <gavinandresen> wallet42: ⦠points to https://blockchain.info/address/3QJmV3qfvL9SuYo34YihAf3sRCW3qSinyC
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1042 2014-01-30 17:00:00 <justanotheruser> Will https://blockchain.info/pushtx push any valid (specifically a non-standard) tx to all the pools?
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1053 2014-01-30 17:15:46 <warren> justanotheruser: read somewhere that it will tell you why it rejects, never tried though
1054 2014-01-30 17:16:08 <warren> justanotheruser: and "to all the pools" isn't up to the sender, pools decide on their own acceptance policy
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1061 2014-01-30 17:23:16 <Ademan-remote> how big should my testnet files get? after running all night my testnet directory is <500MiB
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1065 2014-01-30 17:26:01 <topace> hey, is there a way to tell bitcoind to re-read the config file, without stopping / starting ?
1066 2014-01-30 17:26:14 <topace> (like, to add walletnotify=bla)
1067 2014-01-30 17:26:55 <sipa> not afaik
1068 2014-01-30 17:27:18 <topace> most *nix's software respond to a SIGHUP to reload config
1069 2014-01-30 17:27:25 <topace> but i guess not bitcoind? :(
1070 2014-01-30 17:27:33 <topace> loading my wallet file takes ~15 minutes
1071 2014-01-30 17:27:41 <topace> long time for the site to be down
1072 2014-01-30 17:28:34 <pjorrit> you mean _some_ *nix _daemons_ respond that way
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1074 2014-01-30 17:29:23 <topace> sure
1075 2014-01-30 17:29:36 <topace> either they respond that way, or they have other ways of doing it
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1078 2014-01-30 17:31:04 <xabbix> Which bitcoin client can I use on linux that provides me with command line options (send, create accounts, create new addresses for accounts, check balance per account) and also allows me to disable change addresses (so when I send out BTC the change is kept/returned-to the same address)
1079 2014-01-30 17:31:18 <danosphere> Any crypto experts in here?
1080 2014-01-30 17:31:26 <danosphere> I have some questions regarding hard-forking a coin
1081 2014-01-30 17:31:41 <danosphere> would very much appreciate some wisdom
1082 2014-01-30 17:32:26 <Ademan-remote> danosphere: not me, but you may as well ask
1083 2014-01-30 17:33:05 <Ademan-remote> xabbix: you could always use the mainline bitcoind client and hand crafted transactions
1084 2014-01-30 17:33:12 <Ademan-remote> if you're comfortable with that
1085 2014-01-30 17:33:56 <danosphere> So I have a coin that has a pre-existing blockchain, lets say 0.6 and we are making changes to the coin parameters in this new version 0.8
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1088 2014-01-30 17:34:23 <danosphere> We need to hard-fork so that all of the clients move to 0.8 and also ensure 0.8 picks up the current blockchain and builds on it making it the longest chain
1089 2014-01-30 17:34:23 <xabbix> Ademan-remote: If I craft the transactions myself I can avoid the change addresses, right? Kind of afraid of messing around with this since I know it can be quite destructive if not used correctly..
1090 2014-01-30 17:34:36 <helo> danosphere: #altcoin-dev
1091 2014-01-30 17:34:43 <topace> xabbix: just use bitcoind and interface with teh RPC API
1092 2014-01-30 17:34:48 <Ademan-remote> xabbix: right you have complete control of hand crafted transactions, but like you said, you need to be careful ;-)
1093 2014-01-30 17:34:51 <danosphere> helo: thanks, will pop in there too
1094 2014-01-30 17:34:55 <sipa> danosphere: that has nothing to do with cryptography, and this channel is not about altcoins
1095 2014-01-30 17:35:05 <Ademan-remote> topace: can you disable change addresses with it?
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1097 2014-01-30 17:35:27 <topace> no, "sendfrom" will automatically create you a local change address if required
1098 2014-01-30 17:35:33 <danosphere> sipa: actually it does, but I will ask in altcoin-dev
1099 2014-01-30 17:35:40 <xabbix> topace: I want to disable change addresses..
1100 2014-01-30 17:35:46 <topace> then where do you want the change to go?
1101 2014-01-30 17:35:58 <topace> sum(inputs) must equal sum(outputs)
1102 2014-01-30 17:36:09 <xabbix> nowhere, I want it to stay in the same address (or at least returned to the same address)
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1104 2014-01-30 17:36:17 <sipa> xabbix: why would you want that?
1105 2014-01-30 17:36:23 <xabbix> I know some clients supports no change address, how do they do it?
1106 2014-01-30 17:36:25 <sipa> address reuse is generally discouraged
1107 2014-01-30 17:36:31 <sipa> by not implementing it
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1109 2014-01-30 17:36:51 <xabbix> but sum(inputs) must equal sum(outputs) as topace said
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1111 2014-01-30 17:37:05 <sipa> yeha, they reuse an existing address for change
1112 2014-01-30 17:37:11 <sipa> instead of generating a fresh one
1113 2014-01-30 17:37:28 <sipa> bitcoind does not support this, as it is bad practice
1114 2014-01-30 17:37:36 <sipa> but you can if you use the raw transaction interface
1115 2014-01-30 17:38:06 <xabbix> Yes I understand it's discouraged. Kind of scared to use the raw transaction interface but will give it a try. Thanks :)
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1170 2014-01-30 18:44:39 <tlrobinson> hello. I've got a toy implementation of the basic network protocol and i'm getting "inv" messages, but the hashes don't appear to be transactions hashes of any known transactions (either in my local bitcoin-qt node or on blockchain.info)
1171 2014-01-30 18:44:56 <tlrobinson> do i need to process them somehow?
1172 2014-01-30 18:45:43 justusranvier has joined
1173 2014-01-30 18:46:19 <Luke-Jr> tlrobinson: try reversing the byte order :/
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1175 2014-01-30 18:49:35 <tlrobinson> Luke-Jr: ah hah, that works, seems like an obvious thing to try in retrospect
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1177 2014-01-30 18:49:40 <tlrobinson> thanks
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1189 2014-01-30 18:59:55 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: note tlrobinson's question/conclusion suggests we should really be reversing the byte order of parsed GBT to match the normal SHA256d output, not vice-versa
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1195 2014-01-30 19:02:58 <maaku> what would be the danger of removing the IsFinal() check from IsStandard() ?
1196 2014-01-30 19:03:20 <maaku> (or alternatively, allowing future-dated transactions up to a certain limit, e.g. 3 months in advance)
1197 2014-01-30 19:04:53 <topace> 2014-01-30 18:47:57 init message: Loading wallet...
1198 2014-01-30 19:04:53 <topace> 2014-01-30 18:52:35 nFileVersion = 80600
1199 2014-01-30 19:04:53 <topace>
1200 2014-01-30 19:05:04 <topace> 5 minutes to load the wallet
1201 2014-01-30 19:05:18 <topace> and its been hung still another 3 minutes still after that last line...
1202 2014-01-30 19:05:38 <topace> (it does eventually make it there, just reaaaaaaaaaaaly slow)
1203 2014-01-30 19:06:03 <topace> there it goes
1204 2014-01-30 19:06:05 <topace> 2014-01-30 18:54:31 wallet 393915ms
1205 2014-01-30 19:06:05 <topace> 2014-01-30 18:54:31 init message: Loading addresses...
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1209 2014-01-30 19:08:49 <ZoltanTokay> BTC will be added to google wallet is anyone seen the google employee talk live now? www.thebitcoinsnews.com
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1215 2014-01-30 19:13:25 <ZoltanTokay> Bitcoin will raise so much after google will add bitcoin to their wallet.. look they speak live about it... www.thebitcoinsnews.com
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1249 2014-01-30 19:50:24 <Nesetalis> can I talk now?
1250 2014-01-30 19:50:25 <Nesetalis> weird
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1275 2014-01-30 20:09:27 <agorist> hey guys
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1279 2014-01-30 20:10:54 <agorist> after backing up my wallet, if I add a new address and send coins to it, do I need to rebackup the wallet?
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1288 2014-01-30 20:15:15 <Ry4an> agorist: yes. You should re-back-it-up even after sending coins from an existing address because new change-addresses are created
1289 2014-01-30 20:15:52 <Ry4an> in practice I think 100 new keys are pre-created so your backup is good for 100 or so transactions, but better to back up when you can, IIUC
1290 2014-01-30 20:16:39 <agorist> hm,m
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1292 2014-01-30 20:22:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|maaku: if I understand you correctly, you'd have the transaction hanging around in mempools for potentially months or years
1293 2014-01-30 20:23:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or until it fell out or was pruned
1294 2014-01-30 20:24:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Given that it can't be mined, there's no point in having it sit there taking up a couple megabytes of RAM
1295 2014-01-30 20:25:22 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: it makes a particular application easier
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1297 2014-01-30 20:25:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Lungless I'm mistaken, it also means an attacker can fill mempools for ~free
1298 2014-01-30 20:25:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Unless*
1299 2014-01-30 20:26:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just make a lot of nlocktimed transactions
1300 2014-01-30 20:26:17 attilah has joined
1301 2014-01-30 20:26:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|At any point before they lock, just spend the coins out from under them
1302 2014-01-30 20:26:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Which application?
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1307 2014-01-30 20:32:24 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: Freicoin Foundation's donation matching programme
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1309 2014-01-30 20:33:11 <maaku> we run a node that receives donations to BIP-32 generated addresses, then forwards them to associated non-profits with an extra matching amount from the initial distribution
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1311 2014-01-30 20:33:52 <maaku> but the forword-with-matching-funds transaction is timelocked a month into the future as a mitigation against donation cycling exploits
1312 2014-01-30 20:34:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|maaku: what's wrong with one or more of the parties storing the transaction?
1313 2014-01-30 20:35:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Even if you did accept transactions into the mempool that won't confirm Gorbachev month, that doesn't mean that any miner would still have it a month later.
1314 2014-01-30 20:35:14 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: well that's just it, it'd be nice to store it in the wallet / mempool of the foundation node, so we don't have to replicate bitcoind's tracking of spent outputs, for example
1315 2014-01-30 20:35:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Gorbachev? For a.
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1317 2014-01-30 20:35:59 <maaku> and trust that once a month is up it starts broadcasting it, as wallets do
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1319 2014-01-30 20:36:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|maaku: you can probably patch the software to accept nonlocked transactions into the wallet
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1323 2014-01-30 20:40:07 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: yeah it's a one line change
1324 2014-01-30 20:40:18 <maaku> i'm more wondering if people can think of non-obvious things that might go wrong
1325 2014-01-30 20:40:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There's exactly one thing I can think of
1326 2014-01-30 20:40:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|actually, two
1327 2014-01-30 20:40:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|One: is relaying an unlocked transaction grounds for DoS banscore increasing?
1328 2014-01-30 20:40:54 <maaku> i guess the wallet rebroadcast code should be modified to not relay them (yet)
1329 2014-01-30 20:41:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah, that will fix that (potential) problem
1330 2014-01-30 20:42:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What was the use-case again?
1331 2014-01-30 20:42:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Get funds, send them on matched?
1332 2014-01-30 20:42:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Remember that any change will also be locked
1333 2014-01-30 20:42:40 <maaku> yes, with a safety delay
1334 2014-01-30 20:42:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|erm
1335 2014-01-30 20:42:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|not locked, I mean delayed
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1337 2014-01-30 20:43:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, why do you need to craft the transaction right away? What's wrong with just remembering "I got 1 BTC to this address, I should send 2 BTC to that address next month"?
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1342 2014-01-30 20:50:30 * helo makes a 1-year-timelocked transaction to his new encrypted wallet, and destroys his old private key
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1344 2014-01-30 20:51:42 <CodeShark> does anyone here have experience crossbuilding leveldb from linux to windows?
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1347 2014-01-30 20:52:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|CodeShark: I've done it in gitian as part of a Bitcoin build
1348 2014-01-30 20:52:37 porquilho has joined
1349 2014-01-30 20:52:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does that count?
1350 2014-01-30 20:52:47 <twizt> CodeShark: yea
1351 2014-01-30 20:53:04 <CodeShark> could either of you guide me through the steps?
1352 2014-01-30 20:53:13 <twizt> use java
1353 2014-01-30 20:53:21 <CodeShark> ?
1354 2014-01-30 20:53:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|CodeShark: erm, like I mentioned, when I did it it was just part of the gitian build
1355 2014-01-30 20:53:34 banghouse3 has joined
1356 2014-01-30 20:53:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|see bitcoin/doc/release-process.md
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1358 2014-01-30 20:55:24 <CodeShark> is there only a 32-bit windows build?
1359 2014-01-30 20:55:27 <CodeShark> no 64-bit build?
1360 2014-01-30 20:55:57 <CodeShark> or hmm, I guess there is
1361 2014-01-30 20:56:00 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: the point was transparency, as the timelocked transactions could be downloaded (from a website, say) right after the donation was made
1362 2014-01-30 20:56:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah
1363 2014-01-30 20:56:08 <maaku> but maybe the practical concerns outweigh that
1364 2014-01-30 20:56:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|CodeShark: IIRC master now had a 64-bit build
1365 2014-01-30 20:56:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|maaku: Well, the thing is that that doesn
1366 2014-01-30 20:56:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|'t prove or show anything
1367 2014-01-30 20:56:42 <maaku> yeah
1368 2014-01-30 20:57:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Because you could simply spend the bitcoins out from under the tx
1369 2014-01-30 20:57:02 <maaku> well other than the maaku-could-be-hit-by-a-bus-tomorrow scenario
1370 2014-01-30 20:57:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right
1371 2014-01-30 20:57:37 <maaku> but yeah that's probably not people's chief concern
1372 2014-01-30 20:57:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But if you're allowing the transactions to be downloaded from a website, just use a cronjob or something to run a script that checks if any transactions have locked
1373 2014-01-30 20:57:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|and send them
1374 2014-01-30 21:00:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just isolate the donation-receiving wallet from your other wallet to make sure you don't accidentally use those outputs, and then craft the transactions, sign them, and keep them until they're mineable
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1376 2014-01-30 21:00:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And yeah, sure, post them for anyone to save
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1454 2014-01-30 22:13:52 <MaterialDefender> Calling move still requires a tx fee right?
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1457 2014-01-30 22:19:24 <gmaxwell> no.
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1486 2014-01-30 22:41:37 <aynstein> I just built the berkley db from source, but when I compile bitcoin it cant find the library files, how do I tell it where to look?
1487 2014-01-30 22:42:12 <aynstein> I configured it with the c++ flag enabled
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1491 2014-01-30 22:47:11 <profug0> test
1492 2014-01-30 22:47:35 <profug0> Ok, killer, I finally managed to register this thing
1493 2014-01-30 22:47:49 <profug0> anybody willing to answer a basic bitcoind question?
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1502 2014-01-30 22:55:25 <profug0> hey anybody with some bitcoind experience?
1503 2014-01-30 22:56:08 <profug0> anybody that can tell me how to avoid hidden fees when using bitcoind sendfrom command?
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1509 2014-01-30 23:05:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|profug0: You don't
1510 2014-01-30 23:05:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|When using sendfrom, if you need a fee, a fee will be sent
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1512 2014-01-30 23:06:45 <profug0> that is usually the case
1513 2014-01-30 23:07:10 <profug0> however, it seems that sometimes I am receiving change to a new address, and simultaneously losing bitcoins somehow
1514 2014-01-30 23:07:23 <profug0> can't really figure it out
1515 2014-01-30 23:07:43 <profug0> the voluntary fee is set to zero
1516 2014-01-30 23:08:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|profug0: If the voluntary fee is zero, fees will be omitted when possible
1517 2014-01-30 23:08:46 <profug0> by the way, thanks for your help michagogo
1518 2014-01-30 23:08:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But not all transactions can be free
1519 2014-01-30 23:08:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|See ,,(bc,wiki transaction fee)
1520 2014-01-30 23:08:57 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees | Nov 19, 2013 ... Transaction fees may be included with any transfer of bitcoins from one address to another. At the moment, many transactions are typically ...
1521 2014-01-30 23:09:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You're welcome.
1522 2014-01-30 23:09:42 <profug0> the weird thing is, sometimes I'm warned of the fee, but sometimes not...
1523 2014-01-30 23:09:53 <profug0> is there any way to determine the fee beforehand?
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1527 2014-01-30 23:10:16 <flound1129> what's the minimum input for creating a transaction? 1 satoshi?
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1533 2014-01-30 23:12:57 <profug0> hey, anybody know if there's a way to determine a fee before sending a transaction with bitcoind?
1534 2014-01-30 23:14:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|profug0: There is not.
1535 2014-01-30 23:14:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(that is, as long as you're letting bitcoind create the transaction for you)
1536 2014-01-30 23:15:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|One thing you could do is to set the voluntary transaction fee to something higher than zero, so rather than an unknown, it'll be a constant
1537 2014-01-30 23:15:44 <profug0> interesting... that does make sense
1538 2014-01-30 23:16:19 <profug0> I guess I'll have to factor it into the equation as a cost of doing business
1539 2014-01-30 23:16:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Indeed.
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1542 2014-01-30 23:16:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Actually
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1544 2014-01-30 23:16:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|profug0: what kind of transactions do you usually make?
1545 2014-01-30 23:17:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you end up with large transactions, the fee could be more than the setting
1546 2014-01-30 23:17:31 <profug0> I'm creating a wallet application, among other things... the problem I'm facing is when sweeping all the receiving addresses to consolidate
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1548 2014-01-30 23:17:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The size of a transaction is (for the most part) dependent on the number of inputs and outputs the transaction has
1549 2014-01-30 23:18:24 <profug0> So less inputs could make fees less likely?
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1552 2014-01-30 23:21:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|profug0: Sort of
1553 2014-01-30 23:22:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Basically, if you're getting many small inputs, it will cost you more to spend those inputs because they make the transaction larger
1554 2014-01-30 23:22:30 <profug0> Ahh, right, the "size in bytes" factor
1555 2014-01-30 23:22:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Correct
1556 2014-01-30 23:22:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you look at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees#Reference_Implementation, you can see what the logic is like
1557 2014-01-30 23:23:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(refresh if you clicked it when I first linked it, I just updated a couple numbers)
1558 2014-01-30 23:23:26 <profug0> Killer
1559 2014-01-30 23:23:49 <profug0> how come bitcoind warns me of the fee sometimes but not other times?
1560 2014-01-30 23:24:00 <profug0> is it only when there isn't enough balance to pay the fee?
1561 2014-01-30 23:24:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Quite possibly
1562 2014-01-30 23:24:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|By the way, what are you using the accounts feature for?
1563 2014-01-30 23:24:28 <profug0> Nothing really
1564 2014-01-30 23:24:50 <profug0> I basically use only one account
1565 2014-01-30 23:25:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You probably don't need to be using it at all, then
1566 2014-01-30 23:25:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just use getbalance, sendtoaddress, etc
1567 2014-01-30 23:25:47 <profug0> why, would that influence the fee by creating more inputs?
1568 2014-01-30 23:25:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No -- there's just no reason to use the account system
1569 2014-01-30 23:26:11 <profug0> True that
1570 2014-01-30 23:26:22 <profug0> I just couldn't figure out how to reference the default account
1571 2014-01-30 23:26:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|''
1572 2014-01-30 23:26:33 <profug0> Believe it or not
1573 2014-01-30 23:26:43 <profug0> michagogo, that's so much for your help
1574 2014-01-30 23:27:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Bitcoin Core's accounts feature is... not very useful for most things
1575 2014-01-30 23:27:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Sure, no problem.
1576 2014-01-30 23:27:53 <profug0> Best regards
1577 2014-01-30 23:27:58 profug0 has left ()
1578 2014-01-30 23:28:26 <phrackage> I am thinking of creating something a bit like the Reddit tipping bot - but on another site
1579 2014-01-30 23:28:47 <phrackage> The people tipping each other won't know what the other's bitcoin address is, or whether they even have a wallet
1580 2014-01-30 23:28:50 alphaw0lf has joined
1581 2014-01-30 23:29:07 <phrackage> I would like to eliminate the risk that the tipping bot gets hacked, and allow the sender to reverse the payment if not claimed
1582 2014-01-30 23:29:18 <phrackage> or the bot to do so
1583 2014-01-30 23:29:22 <phrackage> e.g. after 14 days
1584 2014-01-30 23:29:37 <phrackage> What are my best options? nLockTime? Multisig?
1585 2014-01-30 23:29:41 daybyter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1586 2014-01-30 23:29:54 <phrackage> The bot should ideally only have signature access to the funds, no ability to 'steal' them
1587 2014-01-30 23:30:10 <sipa> just keep a local account balance, and payout after exceeding some threshold or period of inactivity
1588 2014-01-30 23:30:20 <sipa> otherwise you'll pay a ton on transaction fess
1589 2014-01-30 23:30:37 <shesek> unless the user making the tips are providing the signed transactions, the bot would have to have direct access to the funds
1590 2014-01-30 23:30:53 <shesek> so I don't see how you can eliminate the bot getting hacked concern
1591 2014-01-30 23:31:21 <shesek> (and if the users are already providing signed transactions, they can just make the payment on their own... doesn't really make sense for a tip bot)
1592 2014-01-30 23:31:25 <phrackage> possibly something like Coinpunk (signatures on the client/browser end)?
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1595 2014-01-30 23:31:49 <shesek> as sipa said, this is probably better done with off-chain transactions, with the bot keeping his own ledger
1596 2014-01-30 23:31:50 <phrackage> i.e. they encrypt their wallet with your own password, and the signed transactions are sent to the bot
1597 2014-01-30 23:32:16 damethos has joined
1598 2014-01-30 23:32:18 <phrackage> true, but it makes the bot a target for attacks, and the users have to trust my bot not to run off with the money
1599 2014-01-30 23:32:42 <phrackage> if i declare up-front that this isn't possible, it might help a lot
1600 2014-01-30 23:32:48 <phrackage> the tips are larger than reddit ones too
1601 2014-01-30 23:33:10 <shesek> it is possible to do this with client-side signing, but they'll have to know the other party address
1602 2014-01-30 23:33:16 <shesek> or, at least, the client-side script has to know
1603 2014-01-30 23:33:54 <shesek> and you don't really need a tipping bot in this case - its basically a client-side wallet that allows users to make transactions
1604 2014-01-30 23:34:08 <shesek> just have them create, sign and broadcast the transaction
1605 2014-01-30 23:34:15 <phrackage> ok
1606 2014-01-30 23:34:24 <phrackage> so let's assume the recipient doesn't have an address yet
1607 2014-01-30 23:34:31 <phrackage> the bot can help prompt them through creating a wallet
1608 2014-01-30 23:34:36 <phrackage> (also client side)
1609 2014-01-30 23:34:47 <shesek> yes, but prior to getting any tips
1610 2014-01-30 23:34:57 <phrackage> The sender's money gets put into a multisig address
1611 2014-01-30 23:35:09 <phrackage> e.g. 2 of 2
1612 2014-01-30 23:35:26 <shesek> unless the recipient has an address (and a key pair), you can't make transaction to the recipient and would have to send it to somewhere under your control
1613 2014-01-30 23:35:33 <shesek> I'm not sure how multisig helps here
1614 2014-01-30 23:36:02 <phrackage> well essentially the multisig would be a 'middleman' at the bot, but and provide the destination for the funds while the recipient's wallet is prepared
1615 2014-01-30 23:36:25 <phrackage> the difference being the bot and the sender would have to agree to forward to the new address, not just the bot
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1617 2014-01-30 23:36:37 <phrackage> sorry i'm thinking this through still
1618 2014-01-30 23:36:49 <shesek> that doesn't really make sense... you want to use 2-of-2 multisig. one pubkey is the bot, what is the other one?
1619 2014-01-30 23:37:01 <shesek> (assuming you don't have an address/pubkey for the recipient yet)
1620 2014-01-30 23:37:12 <phrackage> the original sender?
1621 2014-01-30 23:37:25 <phrackage> so step 1, sender signs the transaction to the bot's multisig address
1622 2014-01-30 23:37:48 <phrackage> step 2, the bot prompts the recipient to create/assign their actual address
1623 2014-01-30 23:38:10 <phrackage> step 3, the bot notifies the sender that the recipient is ready and the sender AND the bot sign the transfer from the multisig address to the recipient
1624 2014-01-30 23:38:13 <phrackage> would that work?
1625 2014-01-30 23:38:20 <justanotheruser> Can someone explain what OP N/A does? "The next *opcode* bytes is data to be pushed onto the stack"
1626 2014-01-30 23:38:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: which opcode exactly?
1627 2014-01-30 23:38:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|0x01-0x4b?
1628 2014-01-30 23:39:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's how you push data to the stack
1629 2014-01-30 23:39:22 <shesek> phrackage, yes, that could work, but it adds quite a bit of complexity
1630 2014-01-30 23:39:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So say I wanted to push to the stack the bytes aabbccddeeff
1631 2014-01-30 23:39:57 <phrackage> shesek, what do you see being the hurdle? The client needing to sign multisig transactions?
1632 2014-01-30 23:40:05 <shesek> why not just delay the actual transaction until after the recipient has an address?
1633 2014-01-30 23:40:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|In Script, that would be 06aabbccddeeff
1634 2014-01-30 23:40:27 <phrackage> I suppose the weakness is also that someone attacking the bot could announce a false recipient address. The bot and the sender sign the transaction because they are none the wiser
1635 2014-01-30 23:40:30 <shesek> no, it shouldn't be a problem (I actually written a service that does multisig signing client-side)
1636 2014-01-30 23:41:23 <shesek> yes, they have to trust the bot to provide correct pubkeys/addresses, but at least it has to involve an active attack that'll only have access to future funds
1637 2014-01-30 23:41:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: For an example, look at any pay-to-pubkey-hash transaction's scriptPubKey
1638 2014-01-30 23:41:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Example from a random transaction: 76 A9 14 E8 59 B7 2A 40 49 20 AA F1 43 62 C9 43 47 81 56 44 75 FD 62 88 AC
1639 2014-01-30 23:42:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|76 and A9 are OP_DUP and OP_HASH160
1640 2014-01-30 23:42:07 <phrackage> shesek: I'd love some help with this, may I see the client-side multisig code?
1641 2014-01-30 23:42:19 <shesek> phrackage, sure. https://github.com/shesek/bitrated/
1642 2014-01-30 23:42:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|88 AC is OP_EQUALVERIFY and OP_CHECKSIG
1643 2014-01-30 23:42:30 <shesek> its up at https://www.bitrated.com/
1644 2014-01-30 23:42:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What's left is 14 E8 59 B7 2A 40 49 20 AA F1 43 62 C9 43 47 81 56 44 75 FD 62
1645 2014-01-30 23:42:42 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: so 0x76 total bytes are loaded into memory?
1646 2014-01-30 23:42:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: no
1647 2014-01-30 23:42:59 <shesek> (its written in coffeescript, with bitcoinjs-lib)
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1649 2014-01-30 23:43:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That line represents 75 different opcodes
1650 2014-01-30 23:43:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The opcodes 1-75 (0x01-0x4b) are the opcodes that mean "push this many bytes onto the stack"
1651 2014-01-30 23:43:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: in that script, the first 2 and last 2 bytes are opcodes
1652 2014-01-30 23:43:57 <justanotheruser> oh, I thought 76 was in N/A
1653 2014-01-30 23:44:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The data push, for the pubkey hash, is 14 E8 59 B7 2A 40 49 20 AA F1 43 62 C9 43 47 81 56 44 75 FD 62
1654 2014-01-30 23:44:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|14 is the number of bytes (20) to push
1655 2014-01-30 23:44:37 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: so 1 and 76 do the same thing?
1656 2014-01-30 23:44:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That tells the interpreter "take the next 0x14 bytes as data"
1657 2014-01-30 23:44:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What? No
1658 2014-01-30 23:44:56 <justanotheruser> well 1 says take one 1 byte
1659 2014-01-30 23:45:03 <justanotheruser> oh wait
1660 2014-01-30 23:45:03 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1661 2014-01-30 23:45:05 <justanotheruser> nevermine
1662 2014-01-30 23:45:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|0x4c is "take the next byte"
1663 2014-01-30 23:45:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"and push that many bytes onto the stack"
1664 2014-01-30 23:45:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: You use 0x4c if you want to push onto the stack anywhere from 76 to 255 bytes
1665 2014-01-30 23:45:46 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: so potentially there could be 4gb of data pushed onto the stack using 0x4e?
1666 2014-01-30 23:46:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, although such a transaction cannot be mined
1667 2014-01-30 23:46:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(and it won't be relayed, either)
1668 2014-01-30 23:46:55 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: what is the limit for stack size?
1669 2014-01-30 23:47:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't know that there's a limit
1670 2014-01-30 23:47:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But no block can be bigger than 1 MB
1671 2014-01-30 23:47:32 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: could a tx smaller than 1mb push more significantly more than 1mb onto the stack?
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1675 2014-01-30 23:48:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: no
1676 2014-01-30 23:48:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Because the data to be pushed is part of the script
1677 2014-01-30 23:48:53 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: thats what I thought because bitcoin isn't turing complete
1678 2014-01-30 23:48:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|right
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1684 2014-01-30 23:49:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So if I wanted to push these bytes onto the stack: b5 7a 49 1a 92 f7 0b f3 e8 e7 cd 8c 4c 7a 15 5c 6e 86 77 ac 42 51 20 52 fe 0d 83 29 70 78 ec bc e3 31 5f 7c 00 2d f4 a9 c2 fd bf c1 2e a4 e1 ac 51 c3 fb 6b 82 c6 ce 2d d3 f6 e4 f7 c9 7c 34 cf 73 ca 0a 45 9b 95 27 c8 92 44 9b ff f2 ab ec 1a c0 bc 8d ae 40 8f 1c 6a aa af ad 9c da 7b 06 a2 e2 58 b0 e8
1685 2014-01-30 23:49:36 <alex_fun> hey folks, is there an easy way to encrypt file with a public key of a certain address and also decrypt it with private key?
1686 2014-01-30 23:49:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It would look like this: 4c 64 b5 7a 49 1a 92 f7 0b f3 e8 e7 cd 8c 4c 7a 15 5c 6e 86 77 ac 42 51 20 52 fe 0d 83 29 70 78 ec bc e3 31 5f 7c 00 2d f4 a9 c2 fd bf c1 2e a4 e1 ac 51 c3 fb 6b 82 c6 ce 2d d3 f6 e4 f7 c9 7c 34 cf 73 ca 0a 45 9b 95 27 c8 92 44 9b ff f2 ab ec 1a c0 bc 8d ae 40 8f 1c 6a aa af ad 9c da 7b 06 a2 e2 58 b0 e8
1687 2014-01-30 23:50:07 <justanotheruser> alex_fun: easy? no, but there are ways
1688 2014-01-30 23:50:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|For one, you need the pubkey
1689 2014-01-30 23:50:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And you can't get that from just the address
1690 2014-01-30 23:50:51 <alex_fun> hmmm
1691 2014-01-30 23:51:21 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1692 2014-01-30 23:51:23 <alex_fun> I wanted to sur[rise my friend :)
1693 2014-01-30 23:51:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, ECDSA keys can't be used for encryption
1694 2014-01-30 23:51:31 <alex_fun> and well it can be neat feature
1695 2014-01-30 23:51:57 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: technically, they're EC keys, and they can be used for encryption - but not using ECDSA
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1698 2014-01-30 23:52:10 <sipa> and usually it's not done with just EC, but incombination with AES
1699 2014-01-30 23:52:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Okay, right -- I thought it was *something* like that
1700 2014-01-30 23:52:20 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: I remember a thread on bitcoin talk talking about how you could use it for encryption
1701 2014-01-30 23:52:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But couldn't remember exctly
1702 2014-01-30 23:52:37 <alex_fun> imagine using bitcoin pubkey to send sensetive files :)
1703 2014-01-30 23:52:44 <alex_fun> *address pubkey
1704 2014-01-30 23:53:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(and preferred to err on the side of not saying something is possible that isn't)
1705 2014-01-30 23:53:09 <Ademan> I assume I must be missing something, but it looks like calculating block hashes isn't endian aware... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/core.cpp#L217 what am I missing?
1706 2014-01-30 23:53:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|alex_fun: At that point it's arguable not a Bitcoin pubkey
1707 2014-01-30 23:53:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|arguably*
1708 2014-01-30 23:53:30 <sipa> Ademan: the bitcoin source code only supports little endian
1709 2014-01-30 23:53:30 <alex_fun> yes
1710 2014-01-30 23:53:36 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: When it says the top stack item, does that mean first byte?
1711 2014-01-30 23:53:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No
1712 2014-01-30 23:53:45 <sipa> justanotheruser: no, the first enrty
1713 2014-01-30 23:53:52 <sipa> each stack entry is a byte vector
1714 2014-01-30 23:53:57 <Ademan> sipa: oh? Wow...
1715 2014-01-30 23:54:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|phrackage: btw, if you want a demo of bitrated.com, I could perform a testnet transaction with you
1716 2014-01-30 23:54:08 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: oh, so entries don't have a size limit?
1717 2014-01-30 23:54:11 <Ademan> I guess it's a good thing nobody uses POWER anymore
1718 2014-01-30 23:54:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: nope
1719 2014-01-30 23:54:19 <sipa> Ademan: there have been attempts at improving that, but none got far, as there was basically no one interested in testing it with hardware to do so
1720 2014-01-30 23:54:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(except for block size limits :P)
1721 2014-01-30 23:54:29 <phrackage> michagogo|cloud: ok
1722 2014-01-30 23:54:34 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: heh
1723 2014-01-30 23:54:38 <alex_fun> michagogo|cloud: so best still open pgp then? :)
1724 2014-01-30 23:54:57 <sipa> justanotheruser: entries are max 520 bytes, afaik
1725 2014-01-30 23:54:58 <alex_fun> I though maybe bitcoin somehow can provide easy and robust encryption mechanism for files
1726 2014-01-30 23:55:06 <sipa> alex_fun: hammer and nails
1727 2014-01-30 23:55:10 <Ademan> sipa: I guess it makes sense, every major platform is little endian these days, unless big blue decides bitcoind really should run on their big iron...
1728 2014-01-30 23:55:12 <alex_fun> lolol
1729 2014-01-30 23:55:15 <sipa> alex_fun: bitcoin is not the perfect solution for everything
1730 2014-01-30 23:55:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: would you be willing to be the arBitrator for our testnet tx?
1731 2014-01-30 23:55:33 <justanotheruser> ;;calc 2**(8*2)
1732 2014-01-30 23:55:34 <gribble> 65536
1733 2014-01-30 23:55:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Oh, there is a max size?
1734 2014-01-30 23:55:47 <alex_fun> o well then thanks for the info :)
1735 2014-01-30 23:55:55 <justanotheruser> ;;calc 65536/8
1736 2014-01-30 23:55:55 <gribble> 8192
1737 2014-01-30 23:56:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So what's the point of OP_PUSHDATA4?
1738 2014-01-30 23:56:16 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: the byte limit was introduced after definition of the script limit
1739 2014-01-30 23:56:17 <justanotheruser> 8192 is the max bytes with op pushdata2, why is there pushdata4?
1740 2014-01-30 23:56:27 <phrackage> shesek is away for a few minutes
1741 2014-01-30 23:56:31 <sipa> pushdata2 should support 65535 bytes
1742 2014-01-30 23:56:37 <alex_fun> if does not fit well wait for next tram
1743 2014-01-30 23:56:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: No, pu-what sipa sais
1744 2014-01-30 23:56:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|said*
1745 2014-01-30 23:56:47 <justanotheruser> ok
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1748 2014-01-30 23:56:54 <justanotheruser> thanks for the help guys :)
1749 2014-01-30 23:57:09 rm_ has joined
1750 2014-01-30 23:57:20 <phrackage> let's do this in #bitrated-testing
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