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 187 2014-01-31 05:17:07 nirom has joined
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 189 2014-01-31 05:18:15 <nirom> Is there any system in development for P2P lending at the moment? Something like shared risk pool of bitcoin lending and borrowing?
 190 2014-01-31 05:20:06 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 191 2014-01-31 05:20:56 mappum has joined
 192 2014-01-31 05:21:04 <Denim-jdev> Who would determine who is allowed to get a loan and who isn't...
 193 2014-01-31 05:21:27 melvster has joined
 194 2014-01-31 05:21:49 <swulf--> pool vote, I presume
 195 2014-01-31 05:22:28 progmax has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 197 2014-01-31 05:24:18 <Luke-Jr> why vote? just only loan from people who approve it
 198 2014-01-31 05:24:30 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 199 2014-01-31 05:25:21 <swulf--> The ripple style of lending, you mean?
 200 2014-01-31 05:27:48 clopez has joined
 201 2014-01-31 05:30:09 <nirom> I'm more looking for something decentralized
 202 2014-01-31 05:31:13 <nirom> Denim: lending would be from someone to someone else direct, but the risk could be shared
 203 2014-01-31 05:31:56 <nirom> This way, it could ease the requirements on the borrower, and the risk of the lender
 204 2014-01-31 05:32:04 hmsimha has joined
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 206 2014-01-31 05:35:02 <Luke-Jr> nirom: that's .. um .. not sane?
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 209 2014-01-31 05:35:17 <Luke-Jr> "someone else" gets all the benefit of the loan, but no responsibility/risk?
 210 2014-01-31 05:35:24 <Luke-Jr> s/no/only some of/
 211 2014-01-31 05:35:43 <nirom> why not, if everyone cautioning the loan share a bit of the interest of the loan?
 212 2014-01-31 05:36:15 <Luke-Jr> they should all agree to the loan too
 213 2014-01-31 05:36:23 <Luke-Jr> in which case, it's from many someones direct
 214 2014-01-31 05:36:24 <nirom> of course
 215 2014-01-31 05:36:43 random_cat has joined
 216 2014-01-31 05:36:47 <Luke-Jr> disclaimer: I am not endorsing usury/interest.
 217 2014-01-31 05:36:49 phrackage has joined
 218 2014-01-31 05:37:20 <nirom> let's say I wan to lend my bitcoin today, I have not choice but to get 100% exposure to risk
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 221 2014-01-31 05:37:52 <nirom> I'm thinking a bit like the insurance companies do with re-assurance
 222 2014-01-31 05:37:55 <Denim-jdev> it'd be too easy to game the system
 223 2014-01-31 05:38:03 <nirom> how so?
 224 2014-01-31 05:38:04 <Denim-jdev> if you don't bear the risk, you loan to a friend
 225 2014-01-31 05:38:06 <Denim-jdev> he rips you off
 226 2014-01-31 05:38:11 <Denim-jdev> other people in the pool have to pay for it
 227 2014-01-31 05:39:25 <nirom> then can someone begin to borrow without a complicated web of trust
 228 2014-01-31 05:39:59 progmax has joined
 229 2014-01-31 05:41:11 <nirom> what could be used to caution the borrowed amount?
 230 2014-01-31 05:42:42 <nirom> today, I can lend my btc through a margin exchange, as long as I beleive the exchange operator won't rip me off. It is still centralized trust.
 231 2014-01-31 05:43:04 <Luke-Jr> …
 232 2014-01-31 05:43:24 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 233 2014-01-31 05:43:29 <Luke-Jr> nirom: you cannot get more money out of something than you put into it
 234 2014-01-31 05:43:46 <Luke-Jr> if Joe lends 5 BTC, and Fred runs off with it, Joe isn't getting it back
 235 2014-01-31 05:43:50 <Luke-Jr> no matter how you do it
 236 2014-01-31 05:43:53 <nirom> I know
 237 2014-01-31 05:44:21 progmax has left ()
 238 2014-01-31 05:44:55 <nirom> this is risk management
 239 2014-01-31 05:45:05 <nirom> there will always be bad dept
 240 2014-01-31 05:45:48 <nirom> but it might be interesting to average the risk over many depts instead of a single one.
 241 2014-01-31 05:47:33 adande has joined
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 243 2014-01-31 05:48:33 <nirom> So have you heard of anything like that, existing project?
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 248 2014-01-31 05:50:21 <Denim-jdev> you'd need government regulation
 249 2014-01-31 05:51:01 <nirom> I dought it would help....
 250 2014-01-31 05:51:06 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 251 2014-01-31 05:52:29 <ZjP> Unless you can impose a cost on those who run off with the principal (loss of non-trivially replacable reputation-- [credit score]) is sufficient
 252 2014-01-31 05:52:37 <ZjP> Then you have nothing
 253 2014-01-31 05:53:04 <nirom> but credit score doesn't cross countries
 254 2014-01-31 05:53:17 <ZjP> You are confused. I am talking in general.
 255 2014-01-31 05:54:40 <nirom> what about using existing coins as collateral?
 256 2014-01-31 05:54:50 <nirom> would it make sense
 257 2014-01-31 05:55:06 <nirom> Let's say I "freeze" 50 btc to borrow 100 btc
 258 2014-01-31 05:55:14 <ZjP> Thank you for the free 50 btc.
 259 2014-01-31 05:55:47 justanotheruser has joined
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 261 2014-01-31 05:56:07 <nirom> well you wont be able to touch it until the network agrees to release it?
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 264 2014-01-31 05:56:29 <ZjP> I can touch the 100 BTC minus my 50 with I give up on since I'm not paying the 100 back equals a free 50 btc for me.
 265 2014-01-31 05:56:37 <nirom> yep
 266 2014-01-31 05:57:12 <nirom> then what can be used s collateral?
 267 2014-01-31 05:57:43 <nirom> I've been thinking about this all week, it is making me crazy
 268 2014-01-31 05:58:21 <harddata> does anyone in here fully understand conditional bitcoin transfers?
 269 2014-01-31 05:58:48 <nirom> not yet
 270 2014-01-31 05:58:55 <nirom> what are they
 271 2014-01-31 05:59:14 <harddata> so my understanding is that you can put conditions on a bitcoin transfer
 272 2014-01-31 05:59:15 Emcy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 273 2014-01-31 05:59:19 justanotheruser1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 274 2014-01-31 05:59:19 <Denim-jdev> uses scripting to add extra functionality
 275 2014-01-31 05:59:25 <harddata> yes
 276 2014-01-31 05:59:40 <harddata> is it implemented at all currently?
 277 2014-01-31 05:59:44 <Denim-jdev> one classic example is 2 out of 3 sig
 278 2014-01-31 05:59:46 <Denim-jdev> yes
 279 2014-01-31 05:59:52 <nirom> so you release the btc when a condition is met
 280 2014-01-31 06:00:07 <harddata> so i understand how to do that with multisig
 281 2014-01-31 06:00:20 <harddata> but if I wanted to use realitykeys
 282 2014-01-31 06:00:25 <harddata> to validate a piece of information
 283 2014-01-31 06:00:43 <harddata> is there a way I could make it self-authorizing (so I wouldn't need an arbiter?)
 284 2014-01-31 06:01:24 <harddata> basically, I want to send a transaction where instead of having a 3rd signature, it only sends if bitcoin hits a price of 1200 USD/BTC
 285 2014-01-31 06:01:49 <ZjP> nope.
 286 2014-01-31 06:02:07 <ZjP> that would require someone to act as the bitcoin price oracle
 287 2014-01-31 06:02:14 <Denim-jdev> problem is you have no way of inputting what bitcoin price is
 288 2014-01-31 06:02:29 <harddata> https://www.realitykeys.com/
 289 2014-01-31 06:02:32 <harddata> that's how
 290 2014-01-31 06:02:43 <harddata> assuming they're reliable
 291 2014-01-31 06:02:46 <harddata> and i figured it out
 292 2014-01-31 06:02:50 <harddata> they publish the private key
 293 2014-01-31 06:02:51 <ZjP> And that's your third party....
 294 2014-01-31 06:02:53 <Denim-jdev> that's basically a 3rd signature...
 295 2014-01-31 06:03:16 <harddata> so what other things can I do with scripting besides multisignature
 296 2014-01-31 06:03:27 <nirom> good night all
 297 2014-01-31 06:03:53 nirom has quit (Quit: Ciao)
 298 2014-01-31 06:03:54 <Denim-jdev> I think two way transactions that only go through together
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 302 2014-01-31 06:10:03 Denim-jdev has quit (Quit: Light travels faster then sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak)
 303 2014-01-31 06:19:22 <harddata> or transactions that lock
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 310 2014-01-31 06:27:08 <mappum> how long are typical reorgs? seems like there are a few orphan blocks, but do any ever get blocks after them?
 311 2014-01-31 06:27:32 <mappum> not counting intentional fork attacks
 312 2014-01-31 06:27:41 melvster has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 313 2014-01-31 06:27:50 <mappum> *a few orphan blocks per day
 314 2014-01-31 06:28:17 <jcorgan> https://blockchain.info/charts/n-orphaned-blocks
 315 2014-01-31 06:28:43 <jcorgan> actually, i don't think that's what you were asking
 316 2014-01-31 06:29:03 <mappum> i'm looking for depth of non-main forks
 317 2014-01-31 06:29:10 <jcorgan> yeah
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 340 2014-01-31 06:52:31 <Diablo-D3> http://www.marscoin.org/
 341 2014-01-31 06:52:34 <Diablo-D3> now thats interesting
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 349 2014-01-31 07:16:12 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: the idea is, yeah, but the params suck
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 351 2014-01-31 07:17:33 <Diablo-D3> yeah
 352 2014-01-31 07:17:35 <Diablo-D3> what I should do
 353 2014-01-31 07:17:41 <Diablo-D3> is a pure science coin
 354 2014-01-31 07:17:48 <Diablo-D3> that privately funds next gen science
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 359 2014-01-31 07:19:52 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: yawn.
 360 2014-01-31 07:20:00 <Luke-Jr> if people want to fund next gen science, they can just fund it.
 361 2014-01-31 07:20:15 <Diablo-D3> fine, how about just taking over the global financial system?
 362 2014-01-31 07:25:46 <ZjP> I think that's called bitcoin
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 365 2014-01-31 07:27:30 <harddata> what's the most innovative use of the blockchain that you've seen
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 367 2014-01-31 07:28:10 <Diablo-D3> ZjP: I dont think bitcoin can make it
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 446 2014-01-31 09:27:06 <epscy> re MarsCoin I don't get it
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 449 2014-01-31 09:30:20 <wumpus> just one of the many wacky altcoin ideas
 450 2014-01-31 09:32:20 <epscy> it's the "move the coin to mars at some point in the future bit i don't get"
 451 2014-01-31 09:32:24 <wumpus> it appears that the altcoins thrive on some viral message or meme, rather sensible implementation ideas, and there is a lot of competition
 452 2014-01-31 09:32:38 <epscy> surely that would just lead to a fork
 453 2014-01-31 09:32:46 <epscy> EarthMarsCoin and MarsMarsCoin
 454 2014-01-31 09:32:59 <wumpus> humanity going to mars is a very popular meme
 455 2014-01-31 09:33:03 <epscy> but you are right, probably best not to take it seriously
 456 2014-01-31 09:34:49 <wumpus> technically it doesn't make sense to start a coin for mars before people are actually on mars and trading...
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 458 2014-01-31 09:35:30 <wumpus> they aren't even simulating the lightspeed delay involved
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 460 2014-01-31 09:38:16 <wumpus> so, another pointless rename instead of a useful experiment
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 530 2014-01-31 11:45:28 <stonecoldpat> anyone here from lancaster uk?
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 534 2014-01-31 11:52:47 <epscy> they all hang out in #bitcoin-uk-lancs
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 541 2014-01-31 11:57:20 <stonecoldpat> epscy: lol
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 548 2014-01-31 12:02:39 <t7> hehe
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 598 2014-01-31 13:32:42 <sneak> /a
 599 2014-01-31 13:32:45 <sneak> hi
 600 2014-01-31 13:32:45 <sneak> oops
 601 2014-01-31 13:32:48 <sipa> /b
 602 2014-01-31 13:32:57 <sneak> sipa: 'sup
 603 2014-01-31 13:33:03 <sneak> did you miami?
 604 2014-01-31 13:33:11 * sneak had too much work to be able to go
 605 2014-01-31 13:33:13 <sipa> no
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 612 2014-01-31 13:48:08 <jgarzik> mornin'
 613 2014-01-31 13:48:17 <jgarzik> Miami appeared fun for others
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 638 2014-01-31 14:31:01 <gavinandresen> I just tagged and pushed v0.9.0rc1
 639 2014-01-31 14:31:02 phrackage has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 640 2014-01-31 14:32:00 <gavinandresen> … and am working through getting gitian-building up and running again in my VirutalBox environment
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 642 2014-01-31 14:32:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen: \o/
 643 2014-01-31 14:32:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'll see if I can get it built and signed before I need to go
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 652 2014-01-31 14:48:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, looks like I don't have enough time :-/
 653 2014-01-31 14:49:13 oPen_syLar has joined
 654 2014-01-31 14:50:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|With the new pulling out linux dependencies thing, plus the fact that we're doing win32, I need to do all the gbuilds for all the inputs. I'll get it built and sigs pushed tomorrow night.
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 659 2014-01-31 14:57:01 <TD> hey there
 660 2014-01-31 14:57:14 * TD feels ....... unemployed
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 664 2014-01-31 15:04:30 <petertodd> TD: ha, you too?
 665 2014-01-31 15:04:43 <TD> yup!
 666 2014-01-31 15:04:47 <petertodd> gavinandresen: comments on dust-b-gone?
 667 2014-01-31 15:04:47 <TD> 7.5 years at google, over today
 668 2014-01-31 15:04:57 <petertodd> TD: heh, we're all quitting dayjobs...
 669 2014-01-31 15:05:05 <TD> it's the new black :)
 670 2014-01-31 15:05:28 <petertodd> TD: got a plan?
 671 2014-01-31 15:06:05 <TD> i have. it's a cunning plan. it's also .... not going to be public for a little while yet. suffice it to say, it involves more of what i do now
 672 2014-01-31 15:06:23 <petertodd> TD: ha, good luck
 673 2014-01-31 15:06:27 phrackage has joined
 674 2014-01-31 15:06:35 <TD> as the HR lady escorted me out she asked what i'd be working on, and said "oh cool, i look forward to reading about what you get up to in a positive context"
 675 2014-01-31 15:06:38 <TD> lol
 676 2014-01-31 15:07:09 <petertodd> sounds like HR alright... being from a smaller company my one joked that she better not see me in the paper in handcuffs
 677 2014-01-31 15:07:10 <gavinandresen> … in a positive context....
 678 2014-01-31 15:07:47 <gavinandresen> petertodd: I sent dust-b-gone some old Faucet wallet dust last week, haven't checked to see if it got swept
 679 2014-01-31 15:08:03 <petertodd> gavinandresen: it just did
 680 2014-01-31 15:08:18 <petertodd> gavinandresen:
 681 2014-01-31 15:08:19 <petertodd> bd5c650f11b0c67365efc6dfb039fbf23f9187455d1e9283b6dab83ccc7cb719
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 683 2014-01-31 15:09:02 <gavinandresen> petertodd: great!  the big issue with dust-b-gone or any other tool that requires direct access to your wallet is trust…  I can read the dust-b-gone code and trust it, but most people can't
 684 2014-01-31 15:09:25 <petertodd> gavinandresen: indeed, not an easy one to solve either
 685 2014-01-31 15:09:33 <gavinandresen> (afk for a bit, moving kids….)
 686 2014-01-31 15:10:00 <petertodd> gavinandresen: fwiw I noticed btc guild mined a OP_RETURN dust-b-gone a few days back; must have upgraded
 687 2014-01-31 15:10:19 <TD> petertodd: you're going to work on mastercoin?
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 689 2014-01-31 15:11:06 <petertodd> TD: yup, mostly but not exclusively them
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 691 2014-01-31 15:11:36 <TD> interesting. doing what? my impression was they hadn't really got much code beyond some scraps put together by bounty hunters
 692 2014-01-31 15:11:37 <petertodd> TD: fortunately they seem to agree that we're better off growing the decentralized finance space in general rather than fighting over marketshare
 693 2014-01-31 15:11:42 <TD> (if you don't mind me asking)
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 697 2014-01-31 15:12:18 <petertodd> TD: hence why my job title is chief scientist - as i put it I said Mastercoin was an idea sufficiently stupid as to be indistinguishable from fraud, and JR replied "great! wanna fix it?"
 698 2014-01-31 15:12:26 <TD> haha
 699 2014-01-31 15:12:33 <TD> well, good to know we're on the same page there then :)
 700 2014-01-31 15:14:23 <petertodd> indeed - msc will likely either be based on ethereum, or implement something like it
 701 2014-01-31 15:15:06 <petertodd> which is interesting because that can lead to a msc team working on UI's and other stuff to actually use the tech, and a ethereum(alike) team working on underlying implementation tech
 702 2014-01-31 15:15:11 <TD> yeah so far ethereum is the only alt coin i've seen that has both an interestingly different design and actual code too. though i'm not really convinced about the design, still. but we'll see.
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 704 2014-01-31 15:15:57 <sipa> i'm unsure about ethereum scalability and incentives, but indeed, it's one of the few that actually tries to experiment with more than a few constants or hash algorithms
 705 2014-01-31 15:15:58 <petertodd> vitalik and some of the other ethereum team live in the same city as me so...
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 707 2014-01-31 15:16:28 <TD> yes, that's very convenient
 708 2014-01-31 15:16:29 <petertodd> sipa: yup, and I think the scalability can be fixed
 709 2014-01-31 15:17:43 <petertodd> sipa: what I'm not so sure is that the finances can be fixed - obviously forking it is trivial and could wipe out early investors - true of msc too
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 713 2014-01-31 15:24:33 <TD> lol
 714 2014-01-31 15:24:33 <TD> http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2014/01/31/silk-road-vendor-filing-claim-for-seized-bitcoins-argues-he-sold-only-legal-items/
 715 2014-01-31 15:24:42 <TD> the lulz to be had from that will be epic to watch
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 717 2014-01-31 15:25:32 <helo> no doubt
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 720 2014-01-31 15:27:10 <petertodd> 6ca0e5c777b67927ef1ab958bcc2b80adcc14dbe6b3a77988c98366bda5391b0 <- yup, btcguild is definitely running 0.9
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 722 2014-01-31 15:30:50 <TD> cool
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 726 2014-01-31 15:32:32 <petertodd> good chance to try out a double-spend attack - ~35% odds per try of a success
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 732 2014-01-31 15:36:53 <TD> how so?
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 734 2014-01-31 15:37:24 <petertodd> TD: trivial to submit to http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php, wait a few seconds to propagate, and then broadcast normally
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 738 2014-01-31 15:37:40 <TD> oh, you mean because it's still considered non-standard
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 743 2014-01-31 15:37:56 <petertodd> yup, and 0.9 density is way below the percolation theshold
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 782 2014-01-31 16:29:03 <jcorgan> URL for the proposed 0.90rc1 release notes?  i can't find them in the repo
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 785 2014-01-31 16:30:32 <sipa> https://gist.github.com/laanwj/8693503
 786 2014-01-31 16:30:43 rdymac has joined
 787 2014-01-31 16:30:49 <jcorgan> tks
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 791 2014-01-31 16:33:42 <jcorgan> the cli option changed from -tor to -onion, but the config file option stayed onlynet=Tor, correct?
 792 2014-01-31 16:34:00 <jcorgan> it chokes on onlynet=onion
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 797 2014-01-31 16:43:03 <jcorgan> nm, it seems these are separate options
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 803 2014-01-31 16:45:33 <wumpus> yes, onlynet=tor (not Tor)
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 811 2014-01-31 17:04:50 <stonecoldpat> does anyone here talk to bitcoin using java? (JSON-RPC) and if so, what api do you recommend for doing it ?
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 815 2014-01-31 17:08:36 <kinlo> yes, self-written :)
 816 2014-01-31 17:09:14 reneg has joined
 817 2014-01-31 17:09:36 <kinlo> you can do that in like 10 lines of code so...
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 833 2014-01-31 17:22:54 <kuzetsa> stonecoldpat: json is a style of rest API
 834 2014-01-31 17:23:04 <kuzetsa> you don't need java to use rest APIs (json or otherwise)
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 836 2014-01-31 17:23:59 <kuzetsa> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representational_state_transfer <-- rest APIs (multiple references in the wikipedia article to json, but it's not the only type of rest)
 837 2014-01-31 17:24:36 <stonecoldpat> kinlo: having an attempt at it now
 838 2014-01-31 17:24:49 <kuzetsa> for json itself, the "jansson" library (c library) works quite well --> http://www.digip.org/jansson/
 839 2014-01-31 17:24:52 <stonecoldpat> kuzetsa: Yeah, i'm trying to use the rpc calls, to get some of the JSON data
 840 2014-01-31 17:24:54 <kuzetsa> jansson saves you quite a lot of lines of code
 841 2014-01-31 17:24:58 <stonecoldpat> ill have a look at that now
 842 2014-01-31 17:25:21 <kuzetsa> ふぉrｗｈあｓｄｆ
 843 2014-01-31 17:25:26 <kuzetsa> あｃｋ
 844 2014-01-31 17:25:32 <stonecoldpat> i normally use PHP for JSON stuff, so a bit unfamiliar with doing it in java
 845 2014-01-31 17:25:38 <kuzetsa> sorry, accidentally switched my keyboard input IME to japanese
 846 2014-01-31 17:25:44 <stonecoldpat> haha
 847 2014-01-31 17:25:54 <stonecoldpat> i had that installed when i played ffxi centuries ago
 848 2014-01-31 17:26:30 <kuzetsa> stonecoldpat: you don't need java
 849 2014-01-31 17:26:35 <kuzetsa> java has nothing to do with json
 850 2014-01-31 17:26:50 <stonecoldpat> oh i know, but i want to do some analysis on the json data, so I thought it may be a bit faster than php
 851 2014-01-31 17:27:07 <stonecoldpat> so make the rpc calls to get the blockchain data, then do some work on it
 852 2014-01-31 17:27:16 <kuzetsa> any json parsing library will be fine
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 855 2014-01-31 17:28:17 <kuzetsa> I can't remember what I was trying to type but messed up by having the wrong language turned on :(
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 858 2014-01-31 17:32:26 <kinlo> stonecoldpat: I do use a json library
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 860 2014-01-31 17:33:05 <kinlo> you don't want to do the json decoding yourself, you cannot do json encoding in 10 lines, certainly if you want to be fully correct
 861 2014-01-31 17:33:40 <stonecoldpat> yeah, I wouldn't be doing the decoding
 862 2014-01-31 17:33:48 <stonecoldpat> I just mean, what way do people connect to the bitcoind server?
 863 2014-01-31 17:33:57 <stonecoldpat> like, an example of a post request to get the mining info
 864 2014-01-31 17:34:02 <stonecoldpat> and to pass in parameters
 865 2014-01-31 17:34:20 <stonecoldpat> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC) for java just gives an example of how to use the authenticator - but nothing else
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 867 2014-01-31 17:35:32 <CheckDavid> Hi
 868 2014-01-31 17:35:36 <CheckDavid> Hi, I am looking to hire a web developer to create something similar to localbitcoins.com for peer 2 peer e-currency exchange, with escrow, without a local focus.
 869 2014-01-31 17:37:11 <TD> stonecoldpat: you can also parse the block chain directly using bitcoinj
 870 2014-01-31 17:37:22 <TD> stonecoldpat: depends what kind of analysis you want to do
 871 2014-01-31 17:37:44 <stonecoldpat> TD: oh really? i was reading it and from what I gathered it didnt depend on the full blockchain
 872 2014-01-31 17:38:13 <TD> it doesn't *require* the full block chain, but it can still download and process it.
 873 2014-01-31 17:38:28 <TD> in git master there's also (since today) a postgres backend that indexes the UTXO set
 874 2014-01-31 17:38:33 <TD> so you can query address balances
 875 2014-01-31 17:39:46 <stonecoldpat> oh thats cool, for Bitcoinj, you still run bitcoind in the background?
 876 2014-01-31 17:39:55 <TD> no
 877 2014-01-31 17:40:11 <TD> it's independent of bitcoind (well, it will go find one from the p2p network to download the block chain from of course)
 878 2014-01-31 17:40:21 <TD> so if you have a local synced bitcoind it's faster to download it from that local node
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 880 2014-01-31 17:41:12 <stonecoldpat> oh thats awesome, i'm having a look at the github now for it, will download it and give it a spin
 881 2014-01-31 17:41:28 <TD> please read the docs on the website for more info
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 883 2014-01-31 17:42:17 <stonecoldpat> will do, its already warned me that it does not qualify me to write production applications ;)
 884 2014-01-31 17:42:39 <TD> after the getting started tutorial, nope, hehe
 885 2014-01-31 17:42:45 <TD> though it doesn't sound like you want to throw other peoples money around
 886 2014-01-31 17:42:57 <TD> there's an IRC channel for it too, #bitcoinj
 887 2014-01-31 17:43:11 <stonecoldpat> no no just want to learn how to manipulate the blockchain data and do stuff with it
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 890 2014-01-31 17:43:45 <TD> sure
 891 2014-01-31 17:43:59 <Goonie> gavinandresen: can you have a look at the log of your payment request generator?
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 893 2014-01-31 17:45:52 <gavinandresen> Goonie: I could… why?
 894 2014-01-31 17:46:22 <Goonie> gavin: I sent in a paymentmessage some minutes ago. txid is ad024a4ffde70a06dd4110b5c964b230292849aab51c3c861bcba93d8bda0d8c
 895 2014-01-31 17:46:36 <Goonie> I did not receive an ack. Maybe you can see why?
 896 2014-01-31 17:48:40 <gavinandresen> Goonie: could be a problem on the server end, I see:  PHP Warning:  MemcachePool::get(): Invalid key in /home/gavin/public_html/payACK.php on line 22
 897 2014-01-31 17:49:08 <Goonie> Do you think you can fix it?
 898 2014-01-31 17:49:36 <gavinandresen> Goonie: yes, should be able to fix it in the next few hours
 899 2014-01-31 17:49:53 <Goonie> gavinandresen: nice, thanks
 900 2014-01-31 17:50:10 <TD> Goonie: have you received an ACK before?
 901 2014-01-31 17:50:17 <TD> i mean, i'm wondering if this is a bug in our code rather than gavin's
 902 2014-01-31 17:50:26 <TD> gavinandresen: are you back in the USA now?
 903 2014-01-31 17:50:39 <Goonie> TD: I just implemented submitting a payment message via HTTP(s)
 904 2014-01-31 17:50:40 <gavinandresen> TD: yes, back home
 905 2014-01-31 17:50:54 <Goonie> TD: So no, I did not receive an ack via http(s) before
 906 2014-01-31 17:50:59 <Goonie> TD: but via BT it worked
 907 2014-01-31 17:51:04 <Goonie> I mean *works*
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 909 2014-01-31 17:51:16 <TD> that wasn't to gavin's server. gavinandresen, are you using merchant_data as the memcache key?
 910 2014-01-31 17:51:45 <gavinandresen> TD: I don't remember.  All the server code is on github.....
 911 2014-01-31 17:51:51 <Goonie> Ah indeed I do not copy merchant_data already
 912 2014-01-31 17:52:02 <TD> Goonie: you shouldn't have to. the PaymentSession code is meant to do that
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 914 2014-01-31 17:52:08 <gavinandresen> https://github.com/gavinandresen/paymentrequest/tree/master/php
 915 2014-01-31 17:52:39 <gavinandresen> … err, I mean https://github.com/gavinandresen/paymentrequest/tree/master/php/demo_website
 916 2014-01-31 17:52:46 <TD> thanks
 917 2014-01-31 17:52:53 <Goonie> TD: I'm testing with the app, not wallettool
 918 2014-01-31 17:53:31 <TD> yeah so the memcache key is the merchant_data
 919 2014-01-31 17:53:39 <TD> Goonie: doesn't matter. your code is using PaymentSession, right?
 920 2014-01-31 17:53:54 <Goonie> TD: no it isn't
 921 2014-01-31 17:53:58 <gavinandresen> would be good if it told you if it can't find the key… "patches welcome"
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 923 2014-01-31 17:54:21 <Goonie> TD: just for pki validation so far
 924 2014-01-31 17:54:38 <TD> well, that's the bug then. not any issue with gavin's code. you need to be using PaymentSession.
 925 2014-01-31 17:55:02 <TD> that's what it's there for, i mean :) you can override the sendPayment(URI, Protos.Payment) method to customize the HTTP behaviour
 926 2014-01-31 17:55:16 <TD> like to replace it with your own HTTP wrapper code
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 933 2014-01-31 18:01:38 <Goonie> gavinandresen: I send to https://bitcoincore.org/~gavin/payACK.php , I get a 404: Not found
 934 2014-01-31 18:01:48 <TD> Goonie: does the overriding of the method give you what you need?
 935 2014-01-31 18:02:05 <TD> Goonie: that error also means the merchant_data resulted in no hit in the memcache
 936 2014-01-31 18:03:34 <TD> Goonie: don't try and reimplement this yourself, you need to be using PaymentSession otherwise it's not going to work right. so let me know what's needed so you can use it. i know about the HTTP thing, subclassing it for your needs should work fine. anything else?
 937 2014-01-31 18:03:52 <Goonie> TD: I'm afraid PaymentSession is far from what I need
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 939 2014-01-31 18:04:15 <TD> in what ways? the only one i remember is changing how http requests are made
 940 2014-01-31 18:04:23 <Goonie> TD: Remember everything is already implemented because I implemented it for the BT protocol.
 941 2014-01-31 18:04:43 <Goonie> TD: Now I'm just configuring the parts in a different way
 942 2014-01-31 18:05:07 <TD> you should have been able to subclass PaymentSession to do BT as well. it sounds like your reimplementation is incomplete ...
 943 2014-01-31 18:05:44 <Goonie> well it is obviously
 944 2014-01-31 18:07:04 <TD> :(
 945 2014-01-31 18:07:35 <TD> i think if you override protected ListenableFuture<Ack> sendPayment(final URL url, final Protos.Payment payment) then you should be able to use PaymentSession for any kind of transport that supports two way communication:  http, bluetooth, nfc, etc
 946 2014-01-31 18:08:08 <Goonie> Futures in general don't work for Android
 947 2014-01-31 18:08:35 <TD> i am skeptical of this claim :)
 948 2014-01-31 18:08:43 <Goonie> Because if your activity goes away there is no way to re-create the same future
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 954 2014-01-31 18:15:26 <TD> Goonie: you realise you can just stuff something into a global variable, right?
 955 2014-01-31 18:15:44 <TD> Goonie: in your activity, have a static global that holds the future for the currently pending payment request submission
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 957 2014-01-31 18:15:55 <TD> if the activity is reconstructed, it just reads the future out of the global and continues
 958 2014-01-31 18:16:11 <Goonie> Hacky hacky...
 959 2014-01-31 18:16:30 <Goonie> Did you know that Android can have multiple instances of the same activity?
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 961 2014-01-31 18:17:57 <spokesz> I'm looking for an exchange api with similar functionality as mtgox's v1 trades api w/ 'since' parameter
 962 2014-01-31 18:19:17 <TD> it's not hacky
 963 2014-01-31 18:19:21 <TD> it's how things are meant to work
 964 2014-01-31 18:19:29 <TD> your app is only designed to be submitting a single payment at once
 965 2014-01-31 18:19:47 <TD> yes, it can create multiple instances of the same object when rotating and things. but only one is meant to be active on screen
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 968 2014-01-31 18:21:02 <TD> Goonie: you have a singleton application instance, right? it's not any different to that
 969 2014-01-31 18:21:03 <pierreatwork> Regarding the payment protocol, did anyone have any input on the proposed extension of BIP-0070 for recurring payments?
 970 2014-01-31 18:21:36 <TD> pierreatwork: sure, people replied on the thread
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 975 2014-01-31 18:22:42 <pierreatwork> TD: right, but not on Stéphane's follow-up email
 976 2014-01-31 18:23:17 <pierreatwork> We were eager to start hacking on it but wanted to make sure we're headed in a sane direction
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 978 2014-01-31 18:25:10 <TD> ok, i just replied
 979 2014-01-31 18:25:27 <Goonie> TD: I think we had that discussion already.
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 981 2014-01-31 18:26:26 <pierreatwork> TD: Thanks! FYI, we'll like do BitcoinJ first
 982 2014-01-31 18:26:28 <TD> probably :)
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 984 2014-01-31 18:26:53 <TD> pierreatwork: great! feel free to extend the wallet protobuf format to record subscription info
 985 2014-01-31 18:27:10 <TD> Goonie: there we go, another reason to use PaymentSession .... people are going to extend it with new features.
 986 2014-01-31 18:27:29 <pierreatwork> :-)
 987 2014-01-31 18:28:00 <Goonie> TD: I will send patches as well
 988 2014-01-31 18:28:14 <TD> Goonie: w.r.t the Future, if the user task switches away and the Android app is shut down whilst the HTTP request to do the payment submission is outstanding, I think it's OK to leave that as an edge case. most apps won't resume HTTP requests that were midflight if they are killed and restarted, no need for your app to be different in this regard
 989 2014-01-31 18:28:38 <TD> so keeping the PaymentSession in a global variable is fine
 990 2014-01-31 18:29:04 <TD> then you can have the AndroidHttpPaymentSession or BluetoothPaymentSession subclass that manages submitting the Payment and receiving the PaymentAck
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1001 2014-01-31 18:37:26 <Goonie> gavinandresen: I verified that I set the correct merchant data. Still I get the 404 not found. Your merchant data for my last request was [111, 47, -80, 1, -53, -3, 39, 84, -84, 94, -30, -54, 46, -2, 96, -62, 53, 50, 101, 97, 51, 99, 49, 102, 99, 53, 50, 56, 49]
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1005 2014-01-31 18:37:51 <TD> Goonie: can i see the code?
1006 2014-01-31 18:37:54 damethos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1007 2014-01-31 18:38:00 <gfawkes_> *sigh* i fucking hate software development.. i thought it would be a great career, and for a brief time it has been
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1009 2014-01-31 18:38:24 <Goonie> TD: Yes, give me a minute
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1012 2014-01-31 18:39:27 <Diapolo> I finally managed it to re-setup Pidgin to use freenodes hidden service, took me that long I can only give a short "Hi there!" before I need to leave -_-.
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1015 2014-01-31 18:43:57 <Goonie> TD: I pushed it to my payment protocol branch. I don't know how much you already reviewed. The BIP70 work starts at commit 4962b8a7e175912aad88055d9cd55d664f8f794a
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1017 2014-01-31 18:44:56 <Goonie> Sending payment messages to HTTP is commit 32a8173f43c7f1e498515c74043c7c8af6135e49 and then c66765bda639fed64614da2828630b04452f249b
1018 2014-01-31 18:46:01 <TD> for the intent, why don't you just serialize the entire PaymentRequest protobuf?
1019 2014-01-31 18:46:08 <TD> seems like you're duplicating its structure
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1021 2014-01-31 18:47:00 <TD> Goonie: btw there isn't really any logging in gavin's code. wallet-tool works, so there's clearly something going wrong in your reimplementation
1022 2014-01-31 18:48:04 <Goonie> did you verify wallet-tool just now?
1023 2014-01-31 18:49:39 <Goonie> The PaymentIntent is an app-internal structure. I stores things that a PaymentRequest doesn't have
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1025 2014-01-31 18:50:19 <TD> yeah, sure, but you could also store the entire serialized protobuf. otherwise as new fields get added you'll have to keep adding code to parcel them up
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1028 2014-01-31 18:51:14 <Goonie> Well the other I'd need to round-trip via protobuf
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1030 2014-01-31 18:51:27 <Goonie> Parceling is Android native, so that's the better format to use
1031 2014-01-31 18:52:14 <TD> why? it's almost exactly the same, but different and creates more work
1032 2014-01-31 18:52:22 <Goonie> And I'd still needs parcels for the fields that are not in the protobuf, so its also more complicated
1033 2014-01-31 18:53:24 <Goonie> I currently don't even have any protobuf generation in my project
1034 2014-01-31 18:53:59 <TD> you don't need to generate anything .... you have read the data from somewhere, right? just keep it as a byte array and then turn it into data structures after the intent is loaded
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1036 2014-01-31 18:55:12 <Goonie> well I can change the way how it parcels at any time
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1040 2014-01-31 18:55:57 <Goonie> So far, it was just a matter of 2 minutes to create the parceling stuff
1041 2014-01-31 18:57:14 <TD> yes i just tried wallet-tool and it worked
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1043 2014-01-31 18:57:59 <TD> hmm well more than two mins as it's not quite working yet :) i guess, could you print out the protobuf you receive from the server and the protobuf you upload? in string form, as that will print it out in a useful way
1044 2014-01-31 18:58:10 <TD> that way we can check that merchant_data is really being duplicated exactly
1045 2014-01-31 18:59:39 <Goonie> Hmmm, payment messages are not that complicated. Does Gavins generator require a memo from my side?
1046 2014-01-31 18:59:45 <TD> no
1047 2014-01-31 18:59:57 <TD> the code is here
1048 2014-01-31 18:59:58 <TD> https://github.com/gavinandresen/paymentrequest/blob/master/php/demo_website/payACK.php
1049 2014-01-31 19:00:13 <TD> as you can see the only path that creates 404 is if the memcache lookup for the merchant_data doesn't work
1050 2014-01-31 19:00:19 <TD> implying it's not being sent correctly
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1055 2014-01-31 19:02:46 <Goonie> looks like merchantData is the only thing its using from the payment message
1056 2014-01-31 19:04:14 <TD> yes
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1058 2014-01-31 19:11:41 <Goonie> gavinandresen, TD: I know what the issue probably is... I used a payment request from several days ago -- did you empty your database since then?
1059 2014-01-31 19:12:24 <TD> ah. it's a memcache
1060 2014-01-31 19:12:32 <TD> try with a fresh request
1061 2014-01-31 19:12:58 <Goonie> so how long does it hold the "session"?
1062 2014-01-31 19:13:43 <gavinandresen> $memcache->set($id, $params['ACK_message'], 0, 60*60*24);
1063 2014-01-31 19:13:50 <gavinandresen> … so 24 hours
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1065 2014-01-31 19:14:01 <Goonie> thanks, that explains
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1067 2014-01-31 19:15:02 <TD> ah yes. i figured you'd be testing by scanning the qrcode and getting a fresh request
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1075 2014-01-31 19:19:43 <Goonie> Nice, with a fresh request it works.
1076 2014-01-31 19:19:53 <TD> great
1077 2014-01-31 19:20:45 <Goonie> TD, gavinandresen: we should really add some numeric value to the ack message... currently I expect the string "ack" for a positive result, and "nack" for a negative.
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1080 2014-01-31 19:21:52 <TD> the string where?
1081 2014-01-31 19:21:56 <TD> you shouldn't try to parse the memo field
1082 2014-01-31 19:22:03 <TD> a PaymentACK means the merchant accepted it. there is no NACK
1083 2014-01-31 19:22:46 <Goonie> TD: You suggested the numeric value yourself
1084 2014-01-31 19:23:21 <TD> ... for a future version. don't try and require some magic strings in the memo fields, that won't work
1085 2014-01-31 19:23:52 <Goonie> TD: Yeah I'll probably change that
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1087 2014-01-31 19:24:34 <TD> yeah don't go beyond the spec. maybe in future there will be some explicit way to communicate back errors but currently there is none
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1090 2014-01-31 19:26:14 <Goonie> Hu? Sure I will go beyond spec, and I already to that. Its a field for experimentation.
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1095 2014-01-31 19:29:01 <TD> yeah ok, sure, i meant don't go beyond it in ways that would make things incompatible with other implementations
1096 2014-01-31 19:29:19 <gavinandresen> Anybody know why I'm getting an error gitian building linux-deps.yml ?  Error is:  CDPATH="${ZSH_VERSION+.}:" && cd . && /bin/bash /home/ubuntu/build/qrencode-3.4.3/use/missing --run aclocal-1.11 -I m4
1097 2014-01-31 19:29:20 <gavinandresen> aclocal-1.11: couldn't open directory `m4': No such file or directory
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1100 2014-01-31 19:30:34 <gavinandresen> I'm sure I'm missing a dependency in the VM, but I can't figure out what it is (I've got make / autoconf / m4....)
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1243 2014-01-31 23:04:38 <BlueMatt> how do tor peers seed currently?
1244 2014-01-31 23:04:47 <BlueMatt> isnt there a static set of onion addresses
1245 2014-01-31 23:04:52 <BlueMatt> or do they still use dnsseeds?
1246 2014-01-31 23:05:09 <sipa> they still use dnsseeds, but by connecting to them rather than resolving them
1247 2014-01-31 23:05:25 <sipa> and send a getaddr, wait for a response, and disconnect
1248 2014-01-31 23:05:51 <kinlo> does bitcoin already support ipv6 dnsseeds?
1249 2014-01-31 23:06:00 <sipa> yes
1250 2014-01-31 23:06:20 <sipa> but it can only learn about onion peers through addr messafes
1251 2014-01-31 23:06:24 <sipa> messages
1252 2014-01-31 23:07:03 <gmaxwell> we really ought to add some onion-seeds. E.g. like the seeds lists but with onion hosts.
1253 2014-01-31 23:07:29 <kinlo> what about adding txt-record based dns seeds?  that would allow portnumbers too
1254 2014-01-31 23:07:41 <BlueMatt> sipa: ahh...ewwww
1255 2014-01-31 23:07:43 <gmaxwell> otherwise bootstraping with onlynet=tor is basically non-functional.
1256 2014-01-31 23:07:56 <BlueMatt> sipa: be better off connecting to a static onion node and then sending addr and disconnecting
1257 2014-01-31 23:08:05 <sipa> why?
1258 2014-01-31 23:08:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, that should be pretty trivial to do
1259 2014-01-31 23:08:15 <BlueMatt> sipa: not mitm-able by your exit node
1260 2014-01-31 23:09:32 <gmaxwell> static onion is superior because it is a single point of trust instead of something where any of N parties could cheat.
1261 2014-01-31 23:09:50 <sipa> fair enough
1262 2014-01-31 23:10:30 <gmaxwell> In particular, tor reuses exit circuits, so its likely that if you make N connections out all at once they'll end up going through the same exit.
1263 2014-01-31 23:10:36 <kinlo> that requires a trusted onion server, but that is probably more secure then the current dnsseed
1264 2014-01-31 23:10:52 <gmaxwell> well, N trusted ones, no need for there to only be one.
1265 2014-01-31 23:11:12 <gmaxwell> and then they become 'only moderately trusted'.
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1268 2014-01-31 23:18:04 <jcorgan> +1 for onion seeds; i've never been able to bring up an onlynet=tor without addnode or connect
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1276 2014-01-31 23:20:20 iwilcox` is now known as iwiIcox`
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1282 2014-01-31 23:21:30 <jcorgan> i've got a long-lived, well-connected EC2-based hidden node that I'd be happy to contribute in some way
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