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   3 2014-02-02 00:01:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;seen wumpus
   4 2014-02-02 00:01:23 <gribble> wumpus was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 7 hours, 15 minutes, and 4 seconds ago: <wumpus> yes, onlynet=tor (not Tor)
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   6 2014-02-02 00:01:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;later tell wumpus Your gist (8693503) with the proposed release notes lists me twice at the bottom :-P
   7 2014-02-02 00:01:23 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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  16 2014-02-02 00:10:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: your charts are off the chart again. Seems we're getting over 20 PH/s now.
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  37 2014-02-02 00:39:45 <andytoshi> if we can maintain 1.75%/day growth rate we'll be an an exahash by this time next year o.O
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  51 2014-02-02 01:05:23 <nsh> i wonder what the most executed algorithm in history is...
  52 2014-02-02 01:05:46 <nsh> maybe something conserved widely from BSD sockets code or something
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  54 2014-02-02 01:06:24 <nsh> or already SHA-1...
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  57 2014-02-02 01:09:53 <andytoshi> well, if you consider "increment the instruction pointer" to be an algorithm, it's got them all beat :P
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  81 2014-02-02 01:48:53 <nsh> andytoshi, yeah, it's hard to draw the line
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  90 2014-02-02 02:04:10 <iateadonut> sipa, so if i do something like decoderawtransaction $rawtrans, where would it show me the confirmations?
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 104 2014-02-02 02:14:29 <sipa> iateadonut: it cannot
 105 2014-02-02 02:14:40 <sipa> decoderawtransaction only decodes a transaction
 106 2014-02-02 02:14:57 <sipa> to know the confirnations, you need to look it up in the blockchain
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 120 2014-02-02 02:31:11 <omefire> test
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 139 2014-02-02 02:49:55 <iateadonut> sipa, what commands are used to do that?
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 142 2014-02-02 02:52:33 <iateadonut> can this only be done natively from one's own wallet?
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 146 2014-02-02 02:56:14 <iateadonut> if that's the case, it must be why API services make you open a wallet on their server.
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 159 2014-02-02 03:13:23 <iateadonut> any answer is appreciated.  (thanking in advance because i'm about to fall asleep)
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 166 2014-02-02 03:17:25 <fanquake> gavinandresen Nice work on the gitian write up
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 184 2014-02-02 03:37:23 <tlrobinson> gavinandresen_ fanquake I added VirtualBox support to gitian's make-base-vm using Vagrant: https://github.com/tlrobinson/gitian-builder/commit/a6fdc2883949dcee8caefba523d1c3d590d0efe3
 185 2014-02-02 03:39:27 <tlrobinson> it occurred to me that Vagrant overlaps a bit with some of gitia-builder's scripts, e.x. start-target = vagrant up, stop-target = vagrant suspend, on-target = vagrant ssh -c 'command', etc
 186 2014-02-02 03:40:12 <tlrobinson> plus there are vagrant providers for kvm, lxc, etc
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 189 2014-02-02 03:42:06 <tlrobinson> gavinandresen_: i'm not sure this is 100% correct though, i built boost successfuly but the hashes don't match what I see in your blog post
 190 2014-02-02 03:42:38 <fanquake> tlrobinson Nice. Will look at it later.
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 245 2014-02-02 04:51:13 <dkog> hi - can anybody point me toward a good random analyzer?  ie. to check uniformity, etc.
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 247 2014-02-02 04:51:58 <dkog> Anything in python maybe?
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 255 2014-02-02 04:59:15 <magbo> dkog: python people would greatly benefit from such a tool, if you know what I mean.
 256 2014-02-02 04:59:34 <magbo> jokes aside, here's where you should start your tests (imho): http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/precise/man1/dieharder.1.html
 257 2014-02-02 04:59:44 <dkog> magbo: I know what you mean literally, but I think I'm missing the innuendo...
 258 2014-02-02 05:02:12 <magbo> dkog: sorry, didn't imply anything, just made a joke. Do you have any specific reason not to use dieharder?
 259 2014-02-02 05:02:52 <dkog> No, that's the one I've heard about before, just wondering if there was anything else, lighter, easier, maybe even a web service you could upload a data set to...
 260 2014-02-02 05:05:07 <magbo> dkog: sorry, I don't know of such a thing. I can try to search for it but I don't think that it's needed. Maybe other people here will have a better answer.
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 289 2014-02-02 05:37:04 <dkog> I moved my question to #crypto, where they are telling me how futile such things are :)
 290 2014-02-02 05:38:41 <magbo> dkog: well, we all know that. “With randomness you can never be sure”. So I skipped to trying my best to answer your question/
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 294 2014-02-02 05:40:06 <dkog> There is the example of using the bit stream from sha256(1), sha256(2), ... which looks random and passes all tests, but is 100% predictable.
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 389 2014-02-02 08:56:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tlrobinson: still around?
 390 2014-02-02 08:56:58 <tlrobinson> michagogo|cloud: yeah
 391 2014-02-02 08:57:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What method did you use to gbuild?
 392 2014-02-02 08:57:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And, what hashes do you get?
 393 2014-02-02 08:57:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I built using LXC, and didn't match Gavin
 394 2014-02-02 08:58:08 <tlrobinson> i used virtualbox (using those changes to gitian-builder i linked to)
 395 2014-02-02 08:58:20 <tlrobinson> i didn't save the hashes, i can run it again though
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 400 2014-02-02 09:00:41 <tlrobinson> (it's going to take a bit though)
 401 2014-02-02 09:00:55 <tlrobinson> i suppose i should also make sure multiple runs produce the same hashes
 402 2014-02-02 09:00:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tlrobinson: I commented with my result on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3612
 403 2014-02-02 09:02:32 <tlrobinson> michagogo|cloud: are you on master?
 404 2014-02-02 09:02:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|v0.9.0rc1
 405 2014-02-02 09:03:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|checked out in git, and passed in the --commit argument
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 407 2014-02-02 09:03:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(following doc/release-process.md)
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 409 2014-02-02 09:03:16 <tlrobinson> i was probably on master actually
 410 2014-02-02 09:05:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tlrobinson: That might have something to do with it
 411 2014-02-02 09:05:17 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|checks the git logs
 412 2014-02-02 09:06:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tlrobinson: Maybe, but maybe not: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/v0.9.0rc1...master
 413 2014-02-02 09:06:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't know if what you call the commit has anything to do with it
 414 2014-02-02 09:06:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|or if it's just the contents
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 416 2014-02-02 09:07:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tlrobinson: To clarify, do you mean you passed --commit bitcoin=master?
 417 2014-02-02 09:07:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|or just that you had master checked out in the git tree?
 418 2014-02-02 09:07:47 gribble has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 419 2014-02-02 09:08:44 <tlrobinson> michagogo|cloud: i followed the instructions here exactly http://gavintech.blogspot.com/2014/02/gitian-building-bitcoin-releases.html
 420 2014-02-02 09:08:58 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hasn't seen that
 421 2014-02-02 09:08:59 <tlrobinson> which includes "--commit bitcoin=HEAD"
 422 2014-02-02 09:09:34 <tlrobinson> (i only built boost and noticed it didn't match gavin's output)
 423 2014-02-02 09:09:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tlrobinson: Oh, don't worry about that
 424 2014-02-02 09:10:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The input dependencies aren't deterministic, IIRC
 425 2014-02-02 09:10:35 <tlrobinson> oh, ok. i'll try doing the whole 0.9.0rc1 build then
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 447 2014-02-02 10:00:40 <fanquake> Quick we'd better shut this whole thing down.. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3615
 448 2014-02-02 10:03:17 <SomeoneWeird> gmaxwell, lol
 449 2014-02-02 10:03:27 <SomeoneWeird> "nsaatlarge" haha
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 453 2014-02-02 10:05:03 <aynstein> gmaxwell: can I assume you dont believe it was satoshi
 454 2014-02-02 10:05:07 <aynstein> ;)
 455 2014-02-02 10:05:40 <fanquake> we all believe aynstein :p
 456 2014-02-02 10:05:45 <aynstein> or are you an NSA plant?
 457 2014-02-02 10:05:54 pablog has joined
 458 2014-02-02 10:07:02 <aynstein> I will believe anything anyone tells me, up to the point my brain process the incoming signal.
 459 2014-02-02 10:07:54 <aynstein> Well, to be fair, when I *first got involved with bitcoin, that thought crossed my mind
 460 2014-02-02 10:11:36 <aynstein> sorry, I know some take whats written here out of context, I do not believe gmaxwell is an nsa shrub, or bush, tree or any type of fern or fawna, no plant at al.
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 463 2014-02-02 10:18:27 <aynstein> why did I try
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 472 2014-02-02 10:34:54 <aynstein> sorry
 473 2014-02-02 10:36:09 <aynstein> i walked into that.
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 486 2014-02-02 10:46:36 <wumpus> hehe
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 497 2014-02-02 10:58:57 <SomeoneWeird> Seriously somebodies who is an admin on the github bitcoin repo needs to delete that issue. gmaxwell gavinandresen_ tcatm sipa
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 505 2014-02-02 11:02:21 <fanquake> SomeoneWeird You can't delete issues from GitHub
 506 2014-02-02 11:02:45 <fanquake> Although you could probably ban the user from the repo and then edit all the comments blank.
 507 2014-02-02 11:03:03 <SomeoneWeird> gah, right
 508 2014-02-02 11:03:10 <SomeoneWeird> well, i reported him, everyone should too
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 514 2014-02-02 11:12:29 <Diablo-D3> url
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 517 2014-02-02 11:18:21 <fanquake> Diablo-D3 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3615
 518 2014-02-02 11:19:25 <Diablo-D3> wow what a fucktard
 519 2014-02-02 11:19:34 <Diablo-D3> github can delete the issue btw
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 524 2014-02-02 11:36:16 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hey, do you know if ipsec includes a method for using asymetric keys for AH?
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 601 2014-02-02 13:36:30 <Azrael_-> hi
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 606 2014-02-02 13:42:15 <shamoon> if i want to connec to more than 8 peers, i have to change the source code, ib elieve
 607 2014-02-02 13:42:19 <shamoon> where do i make that change?
 608 2014-02-02 13:42:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shamoon: net.cpp
 609 2014-02-02 13:42:42 <shamoon> that's it
 610 2014-02-02 13:42:44 <shamoon> thanks michagogo|cloud
 611 2014-02-02 13:45:27 <shamoon> michagogo|cloud: that's MAX_OUTBOUD
 612 2014-02-02 13:45:29 <shamoon> is that the same as inbound?
 613 2014-02-02 13:45:36 <shamoon> peeps that connect to me?
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 616 2014-02-02 13:48:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No
 617 2014-02-02 13:50:02 <shamoon> any way to change that?
 618 2014-02-02 13:50:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes
 619 2014-02-02 13:50:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Configuration option
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 623 2014-02-02 13:52:00 <Azrael_-> is there a way to look into the sourcecode and learn the half-rate from it?
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 643 2014-02-02 14:26:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Azrael_-: I would argue that you can learn any aspect of its behavior if you read and understand the code
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 646 2014-02-02 14:26:40 <nsh> until we merge the nondeterministic branch, at least
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 657 2014-02-02 14:35:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|nsh: uh?
 658 2014-02-02 14:35:31 <nsh> just being silly :)
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 660 2014-02-02 14:36:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Even then you could read the code and understand what it does
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 662 2014-02-02 14:37:11 <aynstein> I am really sorry for antogonizing the unmedicated guy on github
 663 2014-02-02 14:37:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What random behaviors it can choose
 664 2014-02-02 14:37:48 <aynstein> ohhhh eya
 665 2014-02-02 14:37:50 <aynstein> yea
 666 2014-02-02 14:37:55 <aynstein> kungfu
 667 2014-02-02 14:37:57 <aynstein> biotches
 668 2014-02-02 14:38:12 <aynstein> haha
 669 2014-02-02 14:38:23 <aynstein> ok I am gunna reclaim the mine
 670 2014-02-02 14:38:25 <aynstein> :)
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 724 2014-02-02 16:10:53 <skinnkavaj> Can someone explain why it isn't possible for exchanges to accept payments from pools? And how have mcxNOW succeeded in going around it.
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 726 2014-02-02 16:13:26 <sipa> i don't see why they couldn't?
 727 2014-02-02 16:14:33 <skinnkavaj> sipa: I guess they don't send the recieved coins on withdrawal, but coins deposited earlier that already have all confirmations
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 729 2014-02-02 16:15:38 <sipa> so?
 730 2014-02-02 16:18:49 <kaptah> some exchanges don't like generated coins (eligius) but other than that, haven't heard of any problems
 731 2014-02-02 16:19:29 <sipa> sounds like a bug
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 735 2014-02-02 16:23:33 <CourtJesterG> anybody else try compiling the bitcoin client? Am trying to install boost with homebrew
 736 2014-02-02 16:23:48 <CourtJesterG> for this task, it always fails
 737 2014-02-02 16:24:03 da2ce7_laptop has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
 738 2014-02-02 16:24:29 <CourtJesterG> brew install boost --build-from-source --c++11 --with-icu --with-mpi --without-single --with-python --without --static --HEAD
 739 2014-02-02 16:24:29 <CourtJesterG> ==> Using Homebrew-provided fortran compiler.
 740 2014-02-02 16:24:29 <CourtJesterG> This may be changed by setting the FC environment variable.
 741 2014-02-02 16:24:31 <CourtJesterG> ==> Checking out http://svn.boost.org/svn/boost/trunk
 742 2014-02-02 16:24:33 <CourtJesterG> Warning: Formula#python is deprecated and will go away shortly.
 743 2014-02-02 16:24:35 <CourtJesterG> Error: Building MPI support for Python using C++11 mode results in
 744 2014-02-02 16:24:38 <CourtJesterG> failure and hence disabled.  Please don't use this combination
 745 2014-02-02 16:24:38 nightlingo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 746 2014-02-02 16:24:39 <CourtJesterG> This is what am doing:
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 749 2014-02-02 16:26:00 <CourtJesterG> Am unsure which should I give up the MPI, PYTHON libraries or C++11
 750 2014-02-02 16:26:29 <CourtJesterG> It would be nice to use boost with python, and building the libraries during this helps out
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 752 2014-02-02 16:27:23 <sipa> you need neither
 753 2014-02-02 16:27:26 pierreatwork has joined
 754 2014-02-02 16:27:38 <CourtJesterG> Can you build it twice? one with support for Python than with out
 755 2014-02-02 16:27:38 <sipa> no python, no c++11, no mpi
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 757 2014-02-02 16:28:11 <sipa> depends on how you link
 758 2014-02-02 16:28:18 <skinnkavaj> <sipa> sounds like a bug // A bug. Isn't it a safety function. Because you need to have x confirmations on newly minted coins.
 759 2014-02-02 16:28:44 <sipa> skinnkavaj: so? they should count them as soon as they get the required number of confirmations
 760 2014-02-02 16:29:02 <skinnkavaj> Yeah but isn't it 300 confirmations or so for new coins?
 761 2014-02-02 16:29:06 <sipa> 100
 762 2014-02-02 16:29:23 <sipa> 101, actually
 763 2014-02-02 16:29:34 <skinnkavaj> How long is that. Days?
 764 2014-02-02 16:29:49 <sipa> ;;calc 101*600/3600
 765 2014-02-02 16:29:49 <gribble> 16.8333333333
 766 2014-02-02 16:29:53 <sipa> 17 hours
 767 2014-02-02 16:30:07 <skinnkavaj> I guess the problem is that if exchanges accept pool payments, users will complain that the funds doesn't show up in account balance after 6 confirmations
 768 2014-02-02 16:30:24 <sipa> and niw they complain the funds don't count at all :)
 769 2014-02-02 16:30:54 <skinnkavaj> Isn't 100 a very long time?
 770 2014-02-02 16:30:59 CheckDavid has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 771 2014-02-02 16:31:00 <skinnkavaj> Is it really still needed?
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 773 2014-02-02 16:31:18 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: 100 is less than a day you know...
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 775 2014-02-02 16:31:43 <skinnkavaj> But if exchanges accept 6 confirmations, why can't it be like 12 confirmations to spend newly mined oins?
 776 2014-02-02 16:32:08 <skinnkavaj> I guess it's protecting from a potentional 51% attack
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 778 2014-02-02 16:32:33 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: think of it this way: that's basically your response time to fix a fork before coins can end up in the hands of someone other than who mined them; after the fork is fixed coins get destroyed if they aren't on the right side
 779 2014-02-02 16:32:56 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: in theory transactions would otherwise get incorporated into the other side of the chian and no-one loses money
 780 2014-02-02 16:34:14 <petertodd> e.g. in the march fork transactions tended to wind up getting mined on both sides, so you were actually relatively safe if you had a transaction in progress while it was happening
 781 2014-02-02 16:34:36 <skinnkavaj> But with that reasoning shouldn't exchanges use 100 confirmations for safety as well?
 782 2014-02-02 16:34:43 <skinnkavaj> For every deposit.
 783 2014-02-02 16:34:48 <sipa> skinnkavaj: no
 784 2014-02-02 16:34:59 <sipa> there is a very fundamental difference
 785 2014-02-02 16:35:14 <skinnkavaj> Whats the fundemental difference?
 786 2014-02-02 16:35:16 <sipa> newly minted coins cannot be spent at the protocol level before they are matured
 787 2014-02-02 16:35:18 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: no, because normally coins can't vanish out of thin air - they can when a coinbase output is destroyed
 788 2014-02-02 16:35:34 <petertodd> (destroyed by being reorged)
 789 2014-02-02 16:35:36 <sipa> 6 confirmations is just a policy of the receiver
 790 2014-02-02 16:35:42 <sipa> and indeed that is the reason
 791 2014-02-02 16:35:53 <sipa> newly minted coins disappear in a reorganization
 792 2014-02-02 16:36:17 <sipa> other coins can - absent a double spending attack - just move to the new chain
 793 2014-02-02 16:36:43 <skinnkavaj> Alright that exlains it thank you
 794 2014-02-02 16:36:47 <sipa> changing the 101 confirmations limit would require a hardfork
 795 2014-02-02 16:37:41 <petertodd> note how if you're making an alt-coin with a one minute block interval, you should increase that 101 limit proportionally to give time for people to fix problems - dogecoin should have definitely set it to 1000 or more confs
 796 2014-02-02 16:38:02 jakoblind has joined
 797 2014-02-02 16:38:16 <petertodd> from a business point of view having a days revenue tied up - even a week's worth - isn't a big deal
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 799 2014-02-02 16:39:11 <skinnkavaj> mcxNOW have this protection, question is.. How is it done?
 800 2014-02-02 16:39:15 <skinnkavaj> Built-in 51% protection for relevant altcoins -
 801 2014-02-02 16:39:15 <skinnkavaj> If a 51% attack is detected in any of the Bitcoin-based chains then that exchange will automatically shut down to protect against any abuse. This isn't going to guarantee that you will not lose out if a chain is 51% attacked but it gives some protection against losses.
 802 2014-02-02 16:39:36 <skinnkavaj> How is 51% attack detected?
 803 2014-02-02 16:39:36 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: they're probably triggering it based on reorg events - good idea
 804 2014-02-02 16:40:33 <skinnkavaj> THey also say "This isn't going to gurantee that you will not lose out if a chain is 51% attacked"
 805 2014-02-02 16:40:44 <skinnkavaj> Isn't the exchange that will lose on it? And not the end user.
 806 2014-02-02 16:41:00 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: if their transfer of coins to you gets wiped out you lose out
 807 2014-02-02 16:42:13 <skinnkavaj> Alright thanks
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 811 2014-02-02 16:45:20 <petertodd> shesek: heard of reality keys? they're doing a pubkey/privkey-release-based oracle service - your bitrated site could make for a fairly easy way to use them with probably relatively minor changes
 812 2014-02-02 16:48:57 <shesek> petertodd, yes, I heard of them, but didn't think about this
 813 2014-02-02 16:49:19 <shesek> could be interesting to do something like hat... I'll look into it
 814 2014-02-02 16:49:24 <petertodd> shesek: if you supported more than one escrow agent you could do it already actually
 815 2014-02-02 16:50:20 <petertodd> shesek: I'd suggest you do it in time for the superbowl, but someone would probably say something like it's already happened and I'd just get embarassed
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 825 2014-02-02 17:04:10 <shesek> petertodd, I'm looking into how the two pubkeys approach works exactly
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 829 2014-02-02 17:04:38 <petertodd> shesek: cool - fwiw p2sh doesn't have an explicit limit on # of pubkeys
 830 2014-02-02 17:05:00 <shesek> yeah, I was just going to ask that - the spending transaction isn't limited to n-of-3?
 831 2014-02-02 17:05:22 <shesek> only the funding transaction (which can be overriden with p2sh)?
 832 2014-02-02 17:06:17 <petertodd> shesek: bare checkmultisig has a 3 pubkey IsStandard() limit, but that limit wasn't implemented for P2SH
 833 2014-02-02 17:06:19 <shesek> is the recommended 2-of-(bob,alice,bob*bob_wins_pubkey,alice*alice_wins_pubkey)?
 834 2014-02-02 17:06:25 <petertodd> correct
 835 2014-02-02 17:06:35 <shesek> * ... way is
 836 2014-02-02 17:06:46 <petertodd> (although sort the pubkeys so they have a canonical order)
 837 2014-02-02 17:07:39 <petertodd> you probably also want to just use the pubkeys from reality keys directly for now, having derivation in the mix makes it hard to do the tx's offline
 838 2014-02-02 17:08:15 <shesek> how would that work? the revealed private key could be used by both parties
 839 2014-02-02 17:08:16 <petertodd> here's a 1-of-12 p2sh I did: 779b519480d8c5346de6e635119c7ee772e97ec872240c45e558f582a37b4b73
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 842 2014-02-02 17:08:38 <petertodd> doh, yeah your right
 843 2014-02-02 17:08:57 <petertodd> oh, and that's even worse because there's no derivation mechanism that works in that case...
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 845 2014-02-02 17:09:24 <petertodd> or... nah, actually that's wrong, that is ok
 846 2014-02-02 17:09:47 <shesek> ... you confused me :)
 847 2014-02-02 17:09:49 <shesek> what's ok?
 848 2014-02-02 17:10:33 <petertodd> well, with BIP32-style derivation if you release the private key to a derived pubkey the master private key can be obtained with some simple arithmetic
 849 2014-02-02 17:10:54 <petertodd> however, in this case you *aren't* revealing the private key to the *derived* key
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 851 2014-02-02 17:11:45 <petertodd> though I'd need to double check that the math works with someone who actually has a clue - what you're doing there isn't actually BIP32 derivation
 852 2014-02-02 17:12:08 <shesek> you mean with the first method of using 2-of-(bob,alice,bob*bob_wins_pubkey,alice*alice_wins_pubkey)?
 853 2014-02-02 17:12:15 <petertodd> yup
 854 2014-02-02 17:13:20 <petertodd> so, what BIP32 does is takes advantage of the fact that Q_A + d_B*G = (d_A + d_B)*g, but what you want is Q_A + Q_B = (d_A + d_B)*G
 855 2014-02-02 17:13:49 <petertodd> I'm pretty sure the later works - Q_B would be reality key's oracle public key - but check with sipa or someone
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 858 2014-02-02 17:15:03 <shesek> this seems really cool, would be great to add that
 859 2014-02-02 17:15:32 <shesek> but its not very trivial to implement on top of bitrated, its gonna require some work
 860 2014-02-02 17:15:56 <shesek> also... I have no idea how it'll integrate with the current interface
 861 2014-02-02 17:16:14 <shesek> perhaps its better as something separate
 862 2014-02-02 17:16:20 <petertodd> what would it take to just make it possible to have a second escrow agent?
 863 2014-02-02 17:16:57 <shesek> not much - but how would the users derive the keys and all that?
 864 2014-02-02 17:17:11 <petertodd> well they can use a separate tool at first
 865 2014-02-02 17:17:29 <petertodd> multiple escrow agents could be a useful feature in general anyway
 866 2014-02-02 17:17:56 <shesek> yeah, especially knowing that >3 is standard when using p2sh
 867 2014-02-02 17:18:10 <petertodd> yup
 868 2014-02-02 17:18:31 <sipa> i'm not sure that's actually intentional
 869 2014-02-02 17:18:37 <sipa> but i don't really care
 870 2014-02-02 17:18:38 <shesek> I don't understand though - doesn't it consider the spending transaction non-standard, when it sees the script?
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 874 2014-02-02 17:18:56 <shesek> it seems like an oversight... the spending tx should be non-standard just like the funding tx
 875 2014-02-02 17:18:59 <petertodd> sipa: gavin didn't believe me at first, and he wrote the code
 876 2014-02-02 17:19:47 <gavinandresen_> mmm.  Unintentional side effect….  but could be considered a feature, not a bug
 877 2014-02-02 17:20:01 <petertodd> shesek: nope, it's because the way IsStandardTxInput() works is only to check that the input matches one of the standard script templates; the m<=3 test is only present in IsStandard()
 878 2014-02-02 17:20:32 <sipa> yeah, the sigops are still accounted for
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 880 2014-02-02 17:20:55 <sipa> and the up-to-20 pubkeys don't end up in the utxo set anyway
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 882 2014-02-02 17:21:16 <shesek> ah, I see
 883 2014-02-02 17:21:17 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, although p2sh is problematic there because of the 520 byte pushdata limit
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 888 2014-02-02 17:21:45 <sipa> right, so you can get up to... 14?
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 890 2014-02-02 17:22:01 <petertodd> sipa: uh, 15 I think?
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 892 2014-02-02 17:22:26 <sipa> right, 34 bytes per push
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 895 2014-02-02 17:22:51 <shesek> it sounds more like a bug than a feature... seems like it something that technically should be fixed
 896 2014-02-02 17:23:07 <petertodd> shesek: why? it's useful
 897 2014-02-02 17:23:08 <shesek> you don't believe IsStandardTxInput() will change eventually to check for that too?
 898 2014-02-02 17:23:18 <petertodd> shesek: if you use it for something useful it won't!
 899 2014-02-02 17:23:35 <sipa> it's just a local policy thing anyway
 900 2014-02-02 17:23:36 <shesek> :)
 901 2014-02-02 17:23:53 <shesek> its useful in general, and its still considered non standard when part of a non-p2sh output
 902 2014-02-02 17:24:15 <shesek> seems like inputs should technically get the same treatment... or that m<=3 should just be dropped completely
 903 2014-02-02 17:24:40 <petertodd> shesek: just be careful - the 500 byte IsStandard() limit on scriptSig's still applies, which means you need to limit your n term as well or you won't be able to get enough signatures
 904 2014-02-02 17:24:43 <shesek> well, at least I have peter's word that it won't get "fixed" after I implement something on top of that :D
 905 2014-02-02 17:25:38 <petertodd> shesek: IsStandard() is just a matter of conservatism really, and if anything Eligius kinda shows that it's pretty easy to get weird stuff into the blockchain
 906 2014-02-02 17:25:56 <sipa> shesek: i see no reason to change that behaviour
 907 2014-02-02 17:26:55 <petertodd> sipa: heck, replacing the IsStandard() test with a opcode whitelist isn't crazy IMO, especially for P2SH
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 909 2014-02-02 17:27:12 <shesek> btw, re. <petertodd> multiple escrow agents could be a useful feature in general anyway
 910 2014-02-02 17:27:16 <petertodd> sipa: just make it that you have to consume all stack elements
 911 2014-02-02 17:28:23 <shesek> it is, but it doesn't really work well on top of multisig - what you really want is to have multiple agents that have to agree, or some subset of them, something like 2-of-(buyer, seller, m-of-multiple-agents)
 912 2014-02-02 17:28:33 <shesek> standard multisig tx aren't really suitable for multiple agents
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 914 2014-02-02 17:29:03 <petertodd> shesek: true, agents running with the money, gah
 915 2014-02-02 17:29:13 <petertodd> shesek: which you can solve by adding yet more pubkeys :/
 916 2014-02-02 17:29:23 <shesek> right... 2-of-5 with three agents wouldn't work very well :\
 917 2014-02-02 17:29:39 <shesek> yeah, you could double/triple the pubekys the buyer/seller has
 918 2014-02-02 17:29:48 <petertodd> shesek: 3-of-4 is reasonable, but then the agent has to be active
 919 2014-02-02 17:30:04 <shesek> 4-of-(buyer,buyer,seller,seller,agent1,agent2) or something like that
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 921 2014-02-02 17:30:25 <petertodd> yup, which just makes you wish you had OP_IF
 922 2014-02-02 17:30:39 <wizkid057> seems like just one N of X is limitting.  need some more options
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 924 2014-02-02 17:31:08 <shesek> it is possible to do this properly without hacks like that... with non-standard tx
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 929 2014-02-02 17:33:43 <petertodd> shesek: oh sure, e.g. <alice> CHECKSIG SWAP <bob> CHECKSIG 2SWAP 1 <escrow1> <escrow2> 2 CHECKMULTISIG ADD ADD
 930 2014-02-02 17:34:56 <shesek> right
 931 2014-02-02 17:35:05 <shesek> I wonder... does anyone currently use reality keys? how do they do that?
 932 2014-02-02 17:35:18 <shesek> its really not trivial for anyone to currently use that
 933 2014-02-02 17:35:24 <petertodd> heh, I highly doubt anyone is :)
 934 2014-02-02 17:36:21 <shesek> this must suck, starting a service like without anybody using it
 935 2014-02-02 17:36:38 <petertodd> I mentioned that to them; they said they were in it for the long haul
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 937 2014-02-02 17:37:17 <shesek> I'm in an even more annoying position - I can't really tell if anybody is using bitrated
 938 2014-02-02 17:37:41 <petertodd> ha, because it's all javacsript?
 939 2014-02-02 17:37:41 <shesek> I can see requests going to the multisig page, but no idea how many of those are just tests and how many are actual people depositing funds
 940 2014-02-02 17:38:04 <shesek> the server can't see public keys (well, just one of them) and multisig addresses
 941 2014-02-02 17:38:15 <petertodd> well, if you never heard from anyone about it that's probably because you did a spectacular job and it's perfect already :P
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 943 2014-02-02 17:39:28 <petertodd> sipa: incidentally, notice how much more complex that script would have to be if you wanted to banish tx mutability...
 944 2014-02-02 17:39:28 <shesek> I do hear about it, I get emails from people who're interested about it and asking questions (no bugs yet, though :)
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 946 2014-02-02 17:39:44 <shesek> and I see some posts on bitcointalk/reddit mentioning it
 947 2014-02-02 17:40:02 <shesek> but its hard to tell what's the actual usage this is getting
 948 2014-02-02 17:40:06 <petertodd> well, remember these things take time, and it may be the case that your main contribution is in essentially doing UI/UX research for someone elses project
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 950 2014-02-02 17:41:08 <sipa> petertodd: let's just fix the scripting language while we're at it
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 952 2014-02-02 17:42:18 <petertodd> sipa: well sure... but notice how that problem suggests that to fix tx mutability you might be better off making it a non-issue with a new SignatureHash() algorithm or something
 953 2014-02-02 17:42:20 <shesek> I'm actually considering to put some more effort on it, I think it has a lot of potential
 954 2014-02-02 17:42:49 <petertodd> shesek: me too, and like I say, you don't actually need to have a lot of real-world-usage to make a really big and groundbreaking impact
 955 2014-02-02 17:42:50 <shesek> avoiding escrow (and escrow regulation, licensing and costs) allows for some really interesting things that are simply impossible with fiat
 956 2014-02-02 17:43:34 <shesek> it doesn't just solve the seller fraud with bitcoin, it can also help solve the buyer fraud merchants are seeing because of the crappy dispute resolution process companies like visa/paypal provides
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 960 2014-02-02 17:44:01 <shesek> opening the e-commerce arbitration market to competition could be really interesting
 961 2014-02-02 17:44:01 <petertodd> shesek: yes, although keep in mind that for escrow to work properly you generally need quite a bit of real-world and non-anonymous processes for the agents to be able to come to a correct decision
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 963 2014-02-02 17:44:59 <petertodd> shesek: if your DPR, figuring out who screwed who isn't necessarily easy...
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 965 2014-02-02 17:45:09 <petertodd> *you're
 966 2014-02-02 17:46:32 <petertodd> digital products are a nice exception: you certainly could escrow a programming contract given that you can examine the delivered product - the code - very easily
 967 2014-02-02 17:47:58 <shesek> well, I'm hoping we'll start seeing bitcoin used more for day-to-day transactions for buying goods&services, and not mainly for speculation as it seems like today
 968 2014-02-02 17:48:28 <shesek> and yes, this is a great example, especially because you could have a programmer doing that
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 971 2014-02-02 17:48:43 <petertodd> well, keep in mind that you need a solid business case - conventional payment systems *do* work really well for a very large class of uses
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 973 2014-02-02 17:49:22 <shesek> I wanna see someone trying to explain to a rep at visa that they got spaghetti code while the developer promised something else
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 975 2014-02-02 17:49:45 <shesek> well... they work very well for consumers, not so much for merchants
 976 2014-02-02 17:50:02 <petertodd> heh, see, escrow is probably one of those cases where for the right business need bitcoin can in fact offer something conventional systems have a very hard time doing
 977 2014-02-02 17:50:09 <shesek> buyer fraud (someone orders a product, gets it, files a dispute and gets to keep both the money and the product) is a very real problem for merchants
 978 2014-02-02 17:50:25 <petertodd> but for general purpose "goods and services" I'm unconvinced; buys like visa's protections a lot
 979 2014-02-02 17:50:29 <petertodd> *buers
 980 2014-02-02 17:50:31 <petertodd> *buyers
 981 2014-02-02 17:51:14 <shesek> and they should - its very good at protecting consumers. but it sucks as protecting merchants :-\
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 983 2014-02-02 17:52:08 <shesek> and that fraud fraud (a few tens of billion dollars a year) is eventually accounted for with higher prices for everyone
 984 2014-02-02 17:52:13 <shesek> * buyer fraud
 985 2014-02-02 17:52:49 <petertodd> well fraud is a risk like any other; lots of businesses find ways to manage that risk successfully and cheaply enough. you need the whole end-to-end system to be cheaper than the alternative, and that's very hard to accomplish
 986 2014-02-02 17:54:26 <petertodd> bitcoin also has the problem that the architecture is kinda insane - I can easily imagine it being thoroughly outcompeted by a cheaper, faster, thing like mintchip if governments had the guts to let it happen
 987 2014-02-02 17:54:33 <shesek> it remains to be seen, but I believe that opening the dispute resolution market for competition would end up creating both better services that protects both consumers _and_ merchants, while also making the prices more competitive
 988 2014-02-02 17:55:04 <shesek> and avoiding the strict escrow regulations allows doing just that
 989 2014-02-02 17:55:30 * shesek googles mintchip
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 991 2014-02-02 17:55:51 <petertodd> maybe - as I say, I'd suggest trying to target a niche within that market that needs the services the most - digital goods does make a lot of sense
 992 2014-02-02 17:56:20 <petertodd> might be something where some targetting advertising/promotions really helps "Do you hire programmers in India?"
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 996 2014-02-02 17:57:59 <shesek> does mintchip operate without a server? just based on exchanging transactions between devices and keeping an internal balance?
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 999 2014-02-02 17:58:39 <petertodd> that's how it was originally presented, although what they're talking more recently smells like they're doing it differently
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1001 2014-02-02 17:59:41 <petertodd> keep in mind that it's not a given that "all devices will be hacked eventually" - you *can* build things small enough and sensitive enough that taking them apart without wiping the keys inside is guaranteed impossible by physics
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1003 2014-02-02 18:01:28 <petertodd> I mean hell, at my last job I routinely designed, built and tested analog electronics with signal levels so low as to be impossible to probe or otherwise measure directly - you simply had to rely on your models of how the things were supposed to be working inside
1004 2014-02-02 18:03:25 <shesek> a black box obfuscator could also be really useful here. I just read about some advances in that field a few days ago: https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20140130-perfecting-the-art-of-sensible-nonsense/
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1006 2014-02-02 18:03:58 <petertodd> ha, that's a great article, I love how such a thing can turn symmetric crypto into asymmetric
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1014 2014-02-02 18:12:24 <tlrobinson> how does one determine which types of transactions can currently be used? most Script opcodes are enabled and able to be included in blocked, but only certain combinations of them are considered "standard" and will be relayed? correct?
1015 2014-02-02 18:12:47 <petertodd> tlrobinson: look up IsStandard() and AreInputsStandard() in the bitcoin core sourcecode
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1017 2014-02-02 18:13:42 <petertodd> tlrobinson: Solver() in script.cpp covers all the allowed tx forms mostly
1018 2014-02-02 18:14:32 <jcorgan> can anyone point me to reference code for uncompressing compressed public keys? or, bigger picture: i need to import a compressed publice key into a (python-)ecdsa.VerifyingKey, and the closest constructor takes a full curve point, so i think i need to do the conversion
1019 2014-02-02 18:14:52 <petertodd> jcorgan: you mean low-level code, or OpenSSL calls?
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1025 2014-02-02 18:15:38 <jcorgan> well, i'm working in pure python, importing a BIP0032 extended public key, and using an existing pure python ECDSA library
1026 2014-02-02 18:15:59 <petertodd> ah, yeah, I dunno - python-bitcoinlib implements the conversion, but using OpenSSL
1027 2014-02-02 18:16:30 <petertodd> what's the project?
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1029 2014-02-02 18:16:50 <tlrobinson> petertodd: thanks. IsStandardTx is used in decided to relay or not, correct? a miner can ignore it and include a tx anyway?
1030 2014-02-02 18:17:03 <tlrobinson> *in a block
1031 2014-02-02 18:17:24 <jcorgan> i've got a mostly completed BIP0032 key generator that can start with entropy, extended private keys, and extended public keys, to generate child keys with a given hierarchical specification
1032 2014-02-02 18:17:26 <sipa> jcorgan: it's quite easy mathematically
1033 2014-02-02 18:17:27 <petertodd> tlrobinson: exactly, miners can put damn near anything in a block, the IsStandard() stuff is only a precautionary measure
1034 2014-02-02 18:17:34 <sipa> jcorgan: if you don't mind doing the low-level stuff
1035 2014-02-02 18:17:44 <jcorgan> sipa: seems so
1036 2014-02-02 18:17:55 <jcorgan> just wanted to look at someone else's debugged code :)
1037 2014-02-02 18:17:56 <sipa> y^2 = x^3 + 7
1038 2014-02-02 18:18:10 <sipa> so compute x^3 + 7, and take a modular square root of it
1039 2014-02-02 18:18:17 <jcorgan> its the handling of the y or -y square root i am unsure of
1040 2014-02-02 18:18:42 <sipa> well, you check whether y's lowest bit matches the header bit (odd for 0x02, even for 0x03)
1041 2014-02-02 18:18:48 <sipa> sorry, even for 0x02 and odd for 0.03
1042 2014-02-02 18:18:57 <sipa> and if it's wrong, you take y's complement
1043 2014-02-02 18:20:36 <tlrobinson> petertodd: how feasible is it to get non-standard transactions confirmed these days? do you know if any large pools will accept non standard transactions, perhaps with a certain fee size?
1044 2014-02-02 18:20:55 <petertodd> tlrobinson: eligus mines them: http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php
1045 2014-02-02 18:21:19 <jcorgan> ok, i'll have a go at it.  it's the last step to getting the first version of this thing out, other than writing up docs
1046 2014-02-02 18:21:47 <jcorgan> and it now uses all the new terminology of the revised bip
1047 2014-02-02 18:22:18 <tlrobinson> petertodd: is there a consensus among core devs whether this is a good or bad thing?
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1049 2014-02-02 18:22:41 <petertodd> tlrobinson: dunno about consensus, but it is useful at times
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1052 2014-02-02 18:24:46 <petertodd> sipa: reminds me, it'd be nice if there was a short section describing why revealing a derived secret key is dangerous, or at least a link to somewhere describing the problem
1053 2014-02-02 18:25:25 <sipa> petertodd: saw my pullreq?
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1055 2014-02-02 18:25:55 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/12
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1057 2014-02-02 18:26:35 <petertodd> sipa: I was just looking at it; maybe I'm missing something but I don't see that in there
1058 2014-02-02 18:26:57 <sipa> it's mentioned two times :)
1059 2014-02-02 18:27:11 <petertodd> sipa: right, but it says don't do that - it doesn't say *why*
1060 2014-02-02 18:27:18 <sipa> The fact that they are equivalent is what makes non-hardened keys useful (one can derive child public keys of a given parent key without knowing any private key), and also what distinguishes them from hardened keys. The reason for not always using non-hardened keys (which are more useful) is security; see further for more information.
1061 2014-02-02 18:27:33 <sipa> One weakness that may not be immediately obvious, is that knowledge of the extended public key + any non-hardened private key descending from it is equivalent to knowing the extended private key (and thus every private and public key descending from it). This means that extended public keys must be treated more carefully than regular public keys. It is also the reason for the existence of hardened keys, and why they are used for the account level...
1062 2014-02-02 18:27:34 <petertodd> sipa: I mean, maybe what I really want is a short theory section describing the basic idea in simplier language
1063 2014-02-02 18:27:39 <sipa> in the tree. This way, a leak of account-specific (or below) private key never risks compromising the master or other accounts.
1064 2014-02-02 18:28:14 <sipa> feel free to suggest something in easier language
1065 2014-02-02 18:28:25 * sipa afk
1066 2014-02-02 18:28:39 <petertodd> yeah, I should do up a pull-req now that I think I understand it :P
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1069 2014-02-02 18:31:41 <jcorgan> there is a good mathmatical explanation on bct.org back when it was first discovered, i'll have to go look for that
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1072 2014-02-02 18:32:22 <petertodd> jcorgan: gmaxwell's description but iddo's was decent I thought, though the latter maybe needed a few more details (though at some point if you don't get it, maybe you should be doing something else!)
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1098 2014-02-02 18:49:40 <jcorgan> nice, python-ecdsa has a modular square root
1099 2014-02-02 18:51:50 <jcorgan> and a modular polynomial based on a vector of coefficients
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1185 2014-02-02 20:07:40 <devrandom> tlrobinson: send me a pull request for your vagrant stuff?
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1204 2014-02-02 20:44:41 <sipa> peter
1205 2014-02-02 20:44:43 <sipa> eh
1206 2014-02-02 20:44:58 <sipa> petertodd: hmm, right, the number of signatures is limited too
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1212 2014-02-02 20:54:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Have you by any chance gbuilt 0.9.0rc1?
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1215 2014-02-02 20:56:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tlrobinson, did you get those builds done? What're your hashes?
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1218 2014-02-02 20:57:55 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: no, no time now
1219 2014-02-02 20:58:27 <sipa> petertodd: hmm no, the signature are individual scriptSig pushes
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1229 2014-02-02 21:06:59 <skinnkavaj> sipa: Working on a new exchange would you recommend using a new address for every deposit?
1230 2014-02-02 21:07:31 <skinnkavaj> Some users will probably deposit to the old addresses anyway and not listen.
1231 2014-02-02 21:08:07 <sipa> i would recommend using a new address for every transaction under every condition
1232 2014-02-02 21:08:18 <sipa> though make sure you accept transactions to the old ones
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1234 2014-02-02 21:09:21 <skinnkavaj> sipa: What if someone hacks into the exchange server and steals all the wallet addresses
1235 2014-02-02 21:09:28 <skinnkavaj> Then all the old ones will not work anyway.
1236 2014-02-02 21:10:11 <skinnkavaj> Or they will work to deposit to, but the hacker might be faster than the exchange to move coins to new addresses
1237 2014-02-02 21:10:22 <skinnkavaj> See the problem?
1238 2014-02-02 21:10:25 <sipa> no
1239 2014-02-02 21:10:40 <sipa> someone hacking your exchange server is a problem
1240 2014-02-02 21:10:53 <sipa> but i don't see how reusing addresses or not makes any difference
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1243 2014-02-02 21:13:13 <skinnkavaj> sipa: I feels like it's inevitable to happen, that the server might be hacked once in its lifetime.. And then you need to sweep out all addresses generated.
1244 2014-02-02 21:14:03 <sipa> yes, but how does reusing address or not make any difference?
1245 2014-02-02 21:14:20 <sipa> good that you're expecting that :)
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1248 2014-02-02 21:14:32 <skinnkavaj> If you tell people that you cannot deposit to older addresses right from start
1249 2014-02-02 21:14:43 <jcorgan> inb4 sipa on using public only key generation :)
1250 2014-02-02 21:14:51 <sipa> inb4?
1251 2014-02-02 21:14:54 <skinnkavaj> That will not ammter.
1252 2014-02-02 21:15:02 <skinnkavaj> matter.
1253 2014-02-02 21:15:05 <jcorgan> ;;ud inb4
1254 2014-02-02 21:15:05 <gribble> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=inb4 | Generally used on internet forums, inb4 refers to a user posting a reply to a message/topic "before" another user posts an obvious response. When u...
1255 2014-02-02 21:15:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: jcorgan is predicting you're about to say that
1256 2014-02-02 21:15:28 <skinnkavaj> jcorgan: How will public only key generation help?
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1258 2014-02-02 21:15:41 <sipa> the exchange server needs access to the private keys anyway
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1260 2014-02-02 21:15:44 <jcorgan> if your server gets hacked, there is no way for the hacker to spend from the addresses
1261 2014-02-02 21:15:50 <skinnkavaj> How?
1262 2014-02-02 21:15:56 <jcorgan> they don't have the private keys
1263 2014-02-02 21:16:09 <sipa> ?
1264 2014-02-02 21:16:11 <skinnkavaj> I have to assume they will have all the private keys if the main exchange wallet is hacked.
1265 2014-02-02 21:16:37 <sipa> at least when people withdraw money, the server handling that needs access to the keys
1266 2014-02-02 21:17:09 <jcorgan> right, but that doesn't have to be the same server
1267 2014-02-02 21:17:11 <skinnkavaj> Maybe all addresses on the exchange should be pregenerated
1268 2014-02-02 21:17:19 <skinnkavaj> Like a pool of addresses
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1270 2014-02-02 21:17:28 <skinnkavaj> pregenerated offline.
1271 2014-02-02 21:17:32 <sipa> no need for that, with deterministic address generation
1272 2014-02-02 21:17:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|skinnkavaj: A large address pool has the same effect as a deterministic pubkey generation
1273 2014-02-02 21:17:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Same issues, etc
1274 2014-02-02 21:17:53 <skinnkavaj> So it doesn't help me?
1275 2014-02-02 21:17:56 <sipa> it does
1276 2014-02-02 21:17:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(except for the added need to replenish)
1277 2014-02-02 21:18:03 <skinnkavaj> Why does it help?
1278 2014-02-02 21:18:06 <sipa> if your withdraw and exchange server are separate machines
1279 2014-02-02 21:18:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No, generating random addresses offline doesn't help
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1283 2014-02-02 21:19:22 <jcorgan> the exchange server only has the ability to generate deterministic public keys, not the private key associated with them
1284 2014-02-02 21:19:56 <jcorgan> the withrawal "server", which doesn't have to be public facing, can generate the deterministic private keys needed to move btc from those addresses
1285 2014-02-02 21:21:36 <skinnkavaj> How can it create public addresses without knowing the private key?
1286 2014-02-02 21:21:40 <jcorgan> BIP0032
1287 2014-02-02 21:21:43 <skinnkavaj> How is the exchange suppose to spend from the private keys?
1288 2014-02-02 21:22:39 <phantomcircuit> jcorgan, generally speaking the distinction between an exchange server and the withdrawal server is pointless
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1290 2014-02-02 21:23:22 <phantomcircuit> it's impossible for an exchange to operate with the performance people expect unless it can be 99.99% certain account balances are correct
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1293 2014-02-02 21:24:06 * jcorgan admits this kind of services architecture is not his area of expertise
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1295 2014-02-02 21:24:44 <phantomcircuit> jcorgan, generally speaking if an attacker can compromise the database server they can fake records such that the separation of concerns is pointless
1296 2014-02-02 21:25:02 <phantomcircuit> the only advantage in separating them is that the addresses for deposits remain secure
1297 2014-02-02 21:25:11 <phantomcircuit> either way the hot wallet gets emptied though
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1301 2014-02-02 21:27:06 <skinnkavaj> phantomcircuit: What's your solution?
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1303 2014-02-02 21:28:01 <skinnkavaj> I have a choice to make.. 1. Allow deposit to all older addresses 2. Only use deposit adresses once.
1304 2014-02-02 21:28:09 <phantomcircuit> skinnkavaj, separate bitcoind for deposit/withdrawal, rate limit transfers to the withdrawal daemon
1305 2014-02-02 21:28:22 <phantomcircuit> set a maximum amount that can be on it at any point
1306 2014-02-02 21:28:32 <phantomcircuit> now audit everything
1307 2014-02-02 21:28:35 <phantomcircuit> constantly
1308 2014-02-02 21:29:06 <phantomcircuit> skinnkavaj, allow deposits to older addresses but discourage it by not showing anything but their current address
1309 2014-02-02 21:29:21 <phantomcircuit> the customer support from not accepting older addresses is ridiculous
1310 2014-02-02 21:30:18 <skinnkavaj> the customer support from not accepting older addresses is ridiculous // Do you run a service like this yourself or have you read about complaints?
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1312 2014-02-02 21:31:40 <skinnkavaj> For a feature like auto-selling on every deposit, you have to use the same deposit address every time I guess
1313 2014-02-02 21:31:42 <phantomcircuit> skinnkavaj, yes
1314 2014-02-02 21:33:15 <skinnkavaj>  allow deposits to older addresses but discourage it by not showing anything but their current address // I guess this is the best way to do it. But then you cannot have a auto-sell on every deposit feature.
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1359 2014-02-02 22:31:38 <benkay> what's the hot jam for running pools these days? eloipool?
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1361 2014-02-02 22:35:34 <jcorgan> sip: have importing extended public keys working now, thanks for the tips
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1363 2014-02-02 22:35:45 <jcorgan> sipa
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1426 2014-02-02 23:47:38 <jcorgan> well, not quite :(
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