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15 2014-02-04 00:14:48 <devrandom> tlrobinson: merged
16 2014-02-04 00:15:07 <devrandom> tlrobinson: that's an interesting idea... however, I want to check if there are security implications
17 2014-02-04 00:15:20 <devrandom> i.e. where does vagrant get images?
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19 2014-02-04 00:16:08 <devrandom> http://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/vagrant
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21 2014-02-04 00:16:47 <devrandom> should at least change that to https, and would be better if it was possible to check via PGP
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29 2014-02-04 00:20:35 <devrandom> tlrobinson: I created a couple of issues to keep track of these questions https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder/issues?state=open
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73 2014-02-04 01:02:57 <petertodd> gmaxwell: looks like that forked webbtc.com again...
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78 2014-02-04 01:06:18 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
79 2014-02-04 01:06:25 <gmaxwell> is coinbase broken too then?
80 2014-02-04 01:07:20 <sipa> what forked it?
81 2014-02-04 01:07:49 <gmaxwell> yep...
82 2014-02-04 01:07:58 <gmaxwell> 14:00 < gmaxwell> petertodd: we need a bunch of tests that look like <badsig> OP_CHECKSIG OP_NOT
83 2014-02-04 01:08:03 <gmaxwell> 14:00 < petertodd> gmaxwell: oh, that's not in the chain?
84 2014-02-04 01:08:05 <gmaxwell> 14:00 < gmaxwell> I don't think we have any that look that that right now. (unless someone did some recently)
85 2014-02-04 01:08:07 <petertodd> gmaxwell: looks like it
86 2014-02-04 01:08:08 <gmaxwell> 14:01 < gmaxwell> in general we should take every positive test, make a failing version of it, and invert it.
87 2014-02-04 01:08:18 <gmaxwell> 14:09 < petertodd> gmaxwell: done, txid df95ff9ac165abe7adb0091b5f1020c25203fd0c16c95b4c7fa6a4475428ef1f spending c9d5ce246e3795531b2fc43f6d6d341dfbe34c8ae08f9dd3ac481213f72e30fb
88 2014-02-04 01:08:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: block 284029 did them in
89 2014-02-04 01:08:35 <petertodd> and https://coinbase.com/network/blocks is showing orphaned blocks after that
90 2014-02-04 01:09:42 <petertodd> interestingly the list of orphans isn't complete; they're missing three blocks after that
91 2014-02-04 01:12:27 <petertodd> heh, and I'll bet you they're already manually forcing it to work... now 284029 shows as "main"
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93 2014-02-04 01:14:00 <gmaxwell> It's really disappointing that it's so easy to break things. These are not especially tricky tests.
94 2014-02-04 01:15:17 <petertodd> they really aren't; that's the kinda thing you could get right just from reading the wiki
95 2014-02-04 01:15:36 <petertodd> a59012de71dafa1510fd57d339ff488d50da4808c9fd4c001d6de8874d8aa26d <- this is a much more subtle one
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101 2014-02-04 01:17:36 <sipa> OP_CHECKSIG in an input script?
102 2014-02-04 01:17:48 <petertodd> sipa: heh, you looked that up on bc.i...
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104 2014-02-04 01:18:28 <petertodd> sipa: (there's a bug on bc.i related to that tx)
105 2014-02-04 01:18:48 <sipa> i admit :'(
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110 2014-02-04 01:20:07 <petertodd> besides, they're both p2sh inputs, how could CHECKSIG be the last pushdata in the scriptSig?
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128 2014-02-04 01:31:16 <tlrobinson> devrandom: cool, yeah
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163 2014-02-04 02:08:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: and forked again by 284039
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165 2014-02-04 02:09:24 <petertodd> gmaxwell: lol! https://github.com/lian/bitcoin-ruby/commit/19330edd83a4e5ef3b449f434b0c5256d2a2d2aa "fix success state return in Script#op_checkmultisig"
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168 2014-02-04 02:10:52 <petertodd> gmaxwell: looks like 09bdfd8bd713658612594e2d6df5e7f80ba3898e3ae3c6b3aa8ef986204d1e1e did them in; they don't have the logic in ConvertToBool() at all
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170 2014-02-04 02:11:31 <petertodd> gmaxwell: they certainely didn't handle the negative zero case properly
171 2014-02-04 02:12:34 <gmaxwell> lianj: Sorry for the fire drill.
172 2014-02-04 02:12:49 <andytoshi> bc.i shows 0.05 btc still on the OP_CHECKSIG OP_NOT address..
173 2014-02-04 02:12:55 <gmaxwell> lianj: though if you have that bug I suspect there are other ones like it.
174 2014-02-04 02:13:11 <petertodd> lianj: just run bitcoin core locally and if it gives you a tx, trust it's real
175 2014-02-04 02:13:20 <petertodd> lianj: same advice I give everyone...
176 2014-02-04 02:13:34 <petertodd> lianj: there's no need to have a EvalScript() implementation at all
177 2014-02-04 02:14:06 <petertodd> andytoshi: there's a few things I left around delibrately :)
178 2014-02-04 02:14:29 <andytoshi> petertodd: ok, cool, it's yours. i'll give it back if i can get it..
179 2014-02-04 02:14:31 <petertodd> andytoshi: heck, I threw in some unspendable edge cases in there too
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182 2014-02-04 02:15:21 <flound1129> is there a reason bitcoind won't use more than 1 cpu?
183 2014-02-04 02:16:27 <petertodd> andytoshi: give it to eligus - I use relatively high fees for these games because they deserve it for the useful service they're providing
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187 2014-02-04 02:17:01 <justanotheruser> Is there a reason soft-spending is disallowed?
188 2014-02-04 02:17:19 <andytoshi> petertodd: http://0bin.net/paste/h72f7wSVGv2XfKVL#2lOEVJIIdLTPqu+rptkMW+ycfcwaTLUEykXbJGi8ls0= sent to eligius. but my own local bitcoind rejected it so i'm unsure.
189 2014-02-04 02:17:26 <andytoshi> and ooops i forgot to put a fee on it
190 2014-02-04 02:18:24 <andytoshi> damn, they won't take a new one with a fee. bc.i rejects it outright with "Invalid signature" <.<
191 2014-02-04 02:19:28 <petertodd> andytoshi: ah, well, someone will get it eventually
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308 2014-02-04 04:56:35 coins has joined
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310 2014-02-04 04:56:49 <coins> I need some help with compiling the windows wallet
311 2014-02-04 04:57:13 <coins> Currently getting this error: undefined reference to boost::program_options::detail:common_config_file_iterator::get()
312 2014-02-04 04:57:23 <coins> and some others along the lines of that
313 2014-02-04 04:57:38 <coins> my libs are linked correctly
314 2014-02-04 04:58:13 <coins> -l boost_program_options-mgw48-1_53
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319 2014-02-04 05:03:33 <coins> please.
320 2014-02-04 05:04:22 smash has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
321 2014-02-04 05:04:51 <Luke-Jr> coins: you'll have to get in touch with Diapolo; nobody else uses Windows
322 2014-02-04 05:05:11 <coins> understandable, I can see exactly why
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326 2014-02-04 05:10:07 <coins> how could I find this person
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438 2014-02-04 07:12:52 <davec_> the help for getnettotals shows " \"timemillis\": t (numeric) Total cpu time\n" but obj.push_back(Pair("timemillis", static_cast<boost::int64_t>(GetTimeMillis())));
439 2014-02-04 07:12:52 netg_ has joined
440 2014-02-04 07:13:07 <davec_> which is milliseconds since epoch unless I'm misreading that func
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508 2014-02-04 08:32:18 <sipa> flound1129: it will, after the lastr checkpoint, where signature checking is enabled
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559 2014-02-04 09:42:22 <jaekwon> can you spend a bitcoin transaction output immediately, or are you required to wait for X confirmations?
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561 2014-02-04 09:43:08 <stonecoldpat> you have to wait for 1 confirmation i believe
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563 2014-02-04 09:43:40 <stonecoldpat> (might be possible without any confirmation) - but it opens you up to a double spending attack
564 2014-02-04 09:43:45 <Luke-Jr> jaekwon: you don't need it to confirm (at all), unless it's generation, in which case there are 100 blocks before you can spend
565 2014-02-04 09:44:09 <stonecoldpat> Luke-Jr: 100 blocks? why is that? (out of interest)
566 2014-02-04 09:44:14 discobean has joined
567 2014-02-04 09:44:18 <Luke-Jr> jaekwon: for the reason stonecoldpat mentioned, it's preferable to wait until it's in a block, though - otherwise the UTXO id could change innocently
568 2014-02-04 09:44:30 <Luke-Jr> stonecoldpat: one of Satoshi's arbitrary numbers with no reason
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570 2014-02-04 09:44:55 <Luke-Jr> stonecoldpat: the reason for a delay at all, is because a reorg would invalidate it entirely, not merely require reconfirmation
571 2014-02-04 09:46:42 <jaekwon> Luke-Jr, thanks for that. My situation is pretty complicated⦠The outputs that I spend would all be outputs controlled by me. It's a matter of processing customer withdrawalsâ¦
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573 2014-02-04 09:47:03 <stonecoldpat> Luke-Jr: Ah ok, you mean a reorganisation of the outputs?
574 2014-02-04 09:47:10 <jaekwon> If I need to wait 1 confirmation, then that means I need a supply of transaction outputs in order to be able to process withdrawals quickly.
575 2014-02-04 09:47:10 <Luke-Jr> jaekwon: I can't imagine a use case for that.
576 2014-02-04 09:47:19 <sipa> davec_: hmm, please file a bug for that; for consitency it should be seconds
577 2014-02-04 09:47:19 <Luke-Jr> jaekwon: you need that in any case.
578 2014-02-04 09:47:43 davecol has joined
579 2014-02-04 09:47:57 <Luke-Jr> jaekwon: oh, I think I see: you want to chain the change into another one quickly
580 2014-02-04 09:48:09 <sipa> jaekwon: the protocol allows spending immediately; many clients enforce 1 confirmation
581 2014-02-04 09:48:16 <Luke-Jr> jaekwon: you should probably strongly consider batching payments N at a time in a single transaction
582 2014-02-04 09:48:40 <Luke-Jr> if you're planning to have a lot of traffic, anyhow
583 2014-02-04 09:48:51 <jaekwon> If I don't need any confirmations at all, then maybe I don't need a supply of many small spendable outputs⦠I could just have one large output, and daisy chain withdrawals starting from that output, and hopefully all of those transactions go through in FIFO order. Does that make sense?
584 2014-02-04 09:49:11 <jaekwon> I'm already batching, yeah.
585 2014-02-04 09:49:27 <Luke-Jr> jaekwon: should work fine then
586 2014-02-04 09:49:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: do any require 1 block for even your own sends?
587 2014-02-04 09:50:05 <jaekwon> OK, so it is possible to have two transactions, one dependent on the other, be broadcast & successfully confirmed in the same (next) block?
588 2014-02-04 09:50:11 <sipa> Luke-Jr: multibit did, but my information is likely outdated
589 2014-02-04 09:50:47 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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591 2014-02-04 09:51:13 <jaekwon> thanks sipa & Luke-Jr
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597 2014-02-04 09:55:31 <jaekwon> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/1726/can-multiple-transactions-transferring-the-same-bitcoin-be-done-in-one-block
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606 2014-02-04 10:02:44 <stonecoldpat> jaekwon: should work ok - i just wondering what if it the second transaction gets verified first (as invalid) then the first transaction gets accepted? don't know if that scenario could happen
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608 2014-02-04 10:04:49 <sipa> stonecoldpat: it cannot be verified as it has missing inputs
609 2014-02-04 10:05:08 <sipa> so it is held in a waiting queue of orphan transactions
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611 2014-02-04 10:05:31 <sipa> until the parent is received
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613 2014-02-04 10:06:25 <Grouver> Hello, I just copied the entire blockchain (chainstate&blocks folder) from a 0.8.6 trusted node to my local pc. I am running the 0.9.0rc1. Now at the startup I get the error that bitcoin-qt didnt found a genisis block. Is this cause i cant use a 0.8.6 blockchain for a 0.9 client?
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615 2014-02-04 10:07:55 <sipa> Grouver: it should work
616 2014-02-04 10:08:28 <sipa> Grouver: did you copy the datadir while bitcoin was running?
617 2014-02-04 10:08:41 <Grouver> At the startup I directly get the error: "Incorrect of geen genesis-blok gevonden. Verkeerde datamap voor het netwerk?"
618 2014-02-04 10:08:49 <Grouver> sipa, No.
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621 2014-02-04 10:10:35 <sipa> sure you didn't cooy a testnet directory or something?
622 2014-02-04 10:11:03 <Grouver> sipa, Jouke copied it. Ill ask him to be sure.
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630 2014-02-04 10:17:47 <Grouver> sipa, He is sure.
631 2014-02-04 10:17:47 <Grouver> sipa, Ther is a .lock file in the bitcoin dir now though. While iam not running bitcoin, at all.
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646 2014-02-04 10:33:39 <sipa> gavinandresen, wumpus, jgarzik, gmaxwell: #3609 in 0.9.0rc2?
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650 2014-02-04 10:38:54 <Grouver> sipa, I removed the /database/log files and /blocks/index folder now. But its still not working. Ill try to google some more.
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652 2014-02-04 10:39:44 <sipa> if you have database/log files and a .lock file, it certainly was not a cleanly shutdown datadir you copied...
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654 2014-02-04 10:41:14 <Grouver> I didnt copy the .lock file. This was already there. But I didnt force close the bitcoin client or anything.
655 2014-02-04 10:41:26 melvster_ has joined
656 2014-02-04 10:41:37 <Grouver> I also only copied the /blocks folder and /chainstate folder from the trusted node.
657 2014-02-04 10:42:05 <sipa> and are you sure no bitcoind was running on the node you copied it _to_ ?
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662 2014-02-04 10:43:10 <Grouver> sipa, meh that must be it I think. Ill try again. Thanks.
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675 2014-02-04 11:03:55 <freefox> guys, setting maxconnections=1 significantly increases the sync speed, is this known behavior?
676 2014-02-04 11:04:04 <sipa> yes
677 2014-02-04 11:04:17 <freefox> hey sipa
678 2014-02-04 11:04:20 <freefox> so this is a bug?
679 2014-02-04 11:04:30 <sipa> the whole synchronization mechanism is a bug
680 2014-02-04 11:04:36 <freefox> oh :)
681 2014-02-04 11:04:57 <sipa> it's being worked on, but wasn't completed for 0.9
682 2014-02-04 11:05:35 <freefox> good, hope it will be for the next version
683 2014-02-04 11:06:29 <freefox> you know if the "block headers only" download is being implemented?
684 2014-02-04 11:06:58 <sipa> i've been working on headers-first synchronization
685 2014-02-04 11:07:14 <freefox> how's it going?
686 2014-02-04 11:07:21 <sipa> i don't have enough time :)
687 2014-02-04 11:08:12 <freefox> I see
688 2014-02-04 11:08:34 <sipa> but headers-first isn't exactly headers-only (by that, i assume you refer to an SPV mode)
689 2014-02-04 11:08:45 <sipa> it just changes how we decide what to download
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691 2014-02-04 11:09:22 <sipa> headers-only is quite different in that it only synchronizes the headers, so you need a wallet that can request transactions from peers (as the local node doesn't have transactions)
692 2014-02-04 11:09:28 <freefox> is it possible to download just the headers from existing clients, ie old versions?
693 2014-02-04 11:09:44 <sipa> sure, all SPV clients do
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695 2014-02-04 11:09:53 <sipa> bitcoind just is not an SPV client
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698 2014-02-04 11:11:35 <freefox> is there any reason why it shouldn't be?
699 2014-02-04 11:11:50 <sipa> it's just not implemented
700 2014-02-04 11:12:14 <sipa> ideally, you'd have a client that starts out as an SPV client, and gradually upgrades in the background to a full node if resources permit it
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705 2014-02-04 11:18:46 <freefox> yeah that would be good
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707 2014-02-04 11:20:41 <petertodd> sipa: interestingly it looks like colored coins actually may wind up testing that kind of code first
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710 2014-02-04 11:23:26 <petertodd> The key thing is that CC basically does maintain a TXO set on a per-block basis, and at the same time it makes a lot of sense to have flexibility as to how you can update that set with newly known data, both block-by-block, partial blocks, and straight up "issuer said so" - the latter giving you a chance to do some fraud proof stuff.
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744 2014-02-04 11:50:38 <ItsDom> If I'm looking at scriptPubKey, is it safe to assume that if I see 0x02 - 0x04, then the following bytes are a public key (based on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Signatures)
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752 2014-02-04 12:04:08 <stonecoldpat> would it be wrong to say - that a bitcoin address is a bit like a bank account?
753 2014-02-04 12:04:33 <stonecoldpat> (that should be a single use bank account)
754 2014-02-04 12:04:35 <ItsDom> yes. A bitcoin wallet is more like a bank account. A bitcoin address is more like a card to access that account.
755 2014-02-04 12:04:48 <ItsDom> no, you should use a different address for every transaction:)
756 2014-02-04 12:05:10 <stonecoldpat> yeah, thats what i mean by single use... but i forgot about the wallet, good catch
757 2014-02-04 12:05:31 <stonecoldpat> (becomes i own half a cent worth of bitcoins - a wallet is not useful to me normally!) x
758 2014-02-04 12:05:37 Wrenuld has joined
759 2014-02-04 12:05:37 <ItsDom> indeed. But as long as you put "a bit like" then people will agree and disagree with varying amounts of likeness until the cows come home. it all depends on audience:)
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778 2014-02-04 12:38:58 <sipa> ItsDom: no
779 2014-02-04 12:39:04 <sipa> ItsDom: it depends on how the bytes are used
780 2014-02-04 12:39:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ItsDom: a scriptPubKey won't include a pubkey, usually
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782 2014-02-04 12:40:25 <ItsDom> okay. So the only way to do it is actually parse the hex as script?
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784 2014-02-04 12:40:54 <sipa> yes
785 2014-02-04 12:40:57 <ItsDom> michagogo|cloud: I know it's generally a hashed pubkey, I was referring mainly to identifying bits that are values or parameters (e.g. hashes or pub keys) rather than script functions
786 2014-02-04 12:41:15 <sipa> well, pattern match it against a known type of scripts
787 2014-02-04 12:42:01 <ItsDom> sipa: basically, I want to be able to look at the user friendly script of all the transactions, but my abe db only has hex of scriptPubKey
788 2014-02-04 12:42:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ItsDom, script functions? You mean opcodes?
789 2014-02-04 12:42:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And by "values or parameters", do you mean data pushes?
790 2014-02-04 12:42:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Are you familiar with Bitcoin's Script? Definitely read ,,(bc,wiki script) if you haven't aleady
791 2014-02-04 12:42:45 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script | Bitcoin uses a scripting system for transactions. Forth-like, Script ...
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793 2014-02-04 12:44:47 <sipa> ItsDom: the only "user friendly" form is addresses
794 2014-02-04 12:45:11 <sipa> ItsDom: so you just pattern match against types of transactions that correspond to p2sh or pay-to-pubkeyhash
795 2014-02-04 12:45:20 <ItsDom> sipa: by user friendly, I mean OP_DUP instead of e.g. 0x61
796 2014-02-04 12:45:32 <sipa> oh
797 2014-02-04 12:45:37 <sipa> that's easy, just parse it :)
798 2014-02-04 12:46:10 <ItsDom> michagogo|cloud: yeah, I've read that page extensively. By value or parameters, I mean variable data in scriptPubKey as opposed to static commands like OP_OVER and such .
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800 2014-02-04 12:46:32 <sipa> ItsDom: i don't understand why you need to know what a pubkey is, if you just want to disassemble
801 2014-02-04 12:47:01 <ItsDom> sipa: but I have to parse it though, right? I can't just take every byte and say if it equals a value in the wiki, thne convert it, it would have to be informed parsing (e.g. this caracter is OP_IF, so next characters are statements etc.)(
802 2014-02-04 12:47:20 <sipa> ItsDom: there is no such structure
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804 2014-02-04 12:47:26 <sipa> a script is just a series op opcodes
805 2014-02-04 12:47:32 <sipa> some of which push data
806 2014-02-04 12:47:36 <ItsDom> sipa: I don't need to know specifically what is a pubKey, but if I want to do a lazy simple parse (e.g. each byte at a time) then that's only useful if I can identify bytes not to parse as OP codes
807 2014-02-04 12:48:02 <sipa> there is nothing but "lazy simple parse"
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809 2014-02-04 12:48:16 <sipa> you just look at a byte, check in the table what it is, and continue to the next
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811 2014-02-04 12:48:32 <ItsDom> sipa: lazy parse = look at each by independent of the last. clever parse = consider previous bytes.
812 2014-02-04 12:48:41 <sipa> you never need to consider previous bytes
813 2014-02-04 12:48:55 <ItsDom> sipa: if I do that, it wont work for commands like OP_IF because they're followed by data aren't they?
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815 2014-02-04 12:49:06 <sipa> no they're not
816 2014-02-04 12:49:10 <ItsDom> oooh noo! it's stack based
817 2014-02-04 12:49:11 <sipa> OP_IF is just an opcode like every other
818 2014-02-04 12:50:00 <sipa> the only things you need to handle specially are data pushes
819 2014-02-04 12:50:01 <ItsDom> sipa: okay, but for example OP_PUSHDATA pushes the next few bytes to the stack
820 2014-02-04 12:50:16 <ItsDom> aaah, so the only pushes are the 3 pushes OP_PUISHDATA1,2 and 4?
821 2014-02-04 12:50:24 <sipa> no
822 2014-02-04 12:50:35 <sipa> those are effectly almost never used
823 2014-02-04 12:50:40 <sipa> there's also implicit data pushes
824 2014-02-04 12:50:56 <sipa> for example 0x20 means "push the following 32 bytes"
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827 2014-02-04 12:51:13 <sipa> while OP_PUSHDATA takes an extra byte to specify the length of what is being pushed
828 2014-02-04 12:51:16 <ItsDom> seee, this is what I was getting at with parsing not being super simple (I mean, it's hardly advanced, I'm jsut slow:) )
829 2014-02-04 12:52:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: OP_PUSHDATA1 (and to a lesser extent -2) can be useful in e.g. P2SH though, right?
830 2014-02-04 12:52:02 <ItsDom> so the only way to actually convert the hex to opcodes would be to properly parse the hex to determine which bits are op_codes and parts are data for the op_code or to go onto the stack or similar?
831 2014-02-04 12:52:06 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: yup
832 2014-02-04 12:52:11 <sipa> ItsDom: yes
833 2014-02-04 12:52:19 <sipa> ItsDom: but it's not really complicated :)
834 2014-02-04 12:52:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ItsDom: yeah, read a byte at a time, see what it is
835 2014-02-04 12:52:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If it's any of the push opcodes, read the next bytes to see what you push
836 2014-02-04 12:52:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And keep going until the end
837 2014-02-04 12:52:56 <ItsDom> sipa: ha, I know, I'm jsut being lazy. I want to be able to do it conveniently on the go through MySQL, without having to parse it all into another column (with 60million + rows it gets a bit slow)
838 2014-02-04 12:53:50 <ItsDom> Well, I really appreciate the help both of you. Sipa, if I had a penny everytime you've helped me out in the past, my copper jar would definitely be a good lot heavier than it is now:)
839 2014-02-04 12:55:40 <ItsDom> So just to confirm, any outputs from any of the op codes (as specified in the output column on the wiki) ends up on top of the stack?
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842 2014-02-04 12:56:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yep
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844 2014-02-04 12:57:20 <ItsDom> michagogo|cloud: okay, thanks for the help, again, really appreciated:)
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846 2014-02-04 12:58:22 <ItsDom> 1 last question: is it possible for scriptpubkey to start with something other than an opcode? or would that be totally invalid?
847 2014-02-04 12:59:13 <sipa> well, every byte is an opcode pretty much
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849 2014-02-04 12:59:22 <sipa> some are not assigned, but those are just invalid
850 2014-02-04 12:59:47 <ItsDom> so does a scriptPubKey have to start with a valid, assigned opcode?
851 2014-02-04 13:00:04 <sipa> define "have to"... according to which rule?
852 2014-02-04 13:01:00 <ItsDom> As, is an output invalid if it doesn't start with a valid op code (e.g. it wont get accepted into the blockchain)
853 2014-02-04 13:01:40 <sipa> no
854 2014-02-04 13:01:54 <sipa> outputs are only verified when they are attempted to be spent
855 2014-02-04 13:02:04 <sipa> from the point of view of a transaction, it's just a byte sequence
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858 2014-02-04 13:02:37 <ItsDom> Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for that!
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872 2014-02-04 13:19:47 <wumpus> sipa: if it's safe, sure
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899 2014-02-04 13:39:59 <ItsDom> With the script commands, opcodes 1 - 75 labelled as N/A. What does the description "The next opcode is data to be pushed onto the stack" mean? Is it implying those values will only appear after PUSHDATA?
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912 2014-02-04 13:56:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ItsDom: Those mean "push this many bytes"
913 2014-02-04 13:56:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ItsDom:
914 2014-02-04 13:56:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|14:39:15 <sipa> there's also implicit data pushes
915 2014-02-04 13:56:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|14:39:31 <sipa> for example 0x20 means "push the following 32 bytes"
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926 2014-02-04 14:03:59 <ItsDom> michagogo|cloud: aaaah, that makes sense. Thanks for that. Another quick questions. Disabled commands (E.g. those marked in red on wiki) are they intepreted the same as e.g. OP_NOP1 - 10 and OP_INVALIDCODE in a script?
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930 2014-02-04 14:11:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ItsDom: iirc any opcode that doesn't exist causes the script to abort as a failure
931 2014-02-04 14:11:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Iirc the "disabled" opcodes are actually removed)
932 2014-02-04 14:12:31 <ItsDom> okay, given the when a transaction is sent out, the scriptPubKey isn't verified (as it's only checked on spending it later) does that mean it's possible to create a transaction with a removed op_code and it will be unspendable?
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936 2014-02-04 14:13:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right.
937 2014-02-04 14:14:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There's also opreturn, which explicitly has that behavior
938 2014-02-04 14:14:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And is used to create provably unspendable outputs
939 2014-02-04 14:14:55 <ItsDom> yup. Okay. So OP_NOP1 - 7 are just ignored. What about OP_RESERVED1 and OP_RESERVED2?
940 2014-02-04 14:15:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Keep in mind, one of these bytes in a script doesn't automatically invalidate it
941 2014-02-04 14:15:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's only actually executing the opcode that snorts
942 2014-02-04 14:16:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Aborts
943 2014-02-04 14:16:23 <ItsDom> I'm aware. Obviously if someone includes a pubkey which contains a removed op_code, it'll all still work
944 2014-02-04 14:16:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right
945 2014-02-04 14:17:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But it's not just in a pushdata that they may occur
946 2014-02-04 14:17:47 <ItsDom> Also, just to confirm, OP_1 - 16 (OP_x) simply pushes "x" onto the stack?
947 2014-02-04 14:17:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you have an if/else, you can have one of those codes in an unexecuted branch
948 2014-02-04 14:17:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yep
949 2014-02-04 14:18:18 <ItsDom> Any ideas about OP_RESERVED1 and OP_RESERVED2?
950 2014-02-04 14:18:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|For example, IF OP_RETURN ELSE CHECKSIG ENDIF
951 2014-02-04 14:19:05 <sipa> ItsDom: they're invalid
952 2014-02-04 14:19:25 <ItsDom> sipa: do they behave like a removed word (e.g. cause the entire thing to fail?)
953 2014-02-04 14:19:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes
954 2014-02-04 14:19:40 <sipa> yes
955 2014-02-04 14:19:48 <sipa> i think they even cause failure inside an else branch
956 2014-02-04 14:19:58 <ItsDom> same with OP_RESERVED also?
957 2014-02-04 14:20:44 <sipa> ah, i'm wrong
958 2014-02-04 14:20:50 <sipa> OP_RESERVED is possible inside else
959 2014-02-04 14:21:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: I thought anything in the non-executed branch of an if may as well not exist?
960 2014-02-04 14:21:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Other than sigop count?)
961 2014-02-04 14:22:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(And length, ofc)
962 2014-02-04 14:22:22 <sipa> yeah, i misread
963 2014-02-04 14:22:27 <ItsDom> sipa: so OP_RESERVED doesn't cause a failure in an else branch.... so what's it's purpose?
964 2014-02-04 14:22:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ItsDom: ask Satoshi
965 2014-02-04 14:22:46 <sipa> ^
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967 2014-02-04 14:22:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right now it's useless
968 2014-02-04 14:23:03 <ItsDom> okay. I'll send a carrier pigeon his way, thanks:)
969 2014-02-04 14:23:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It acts as an op_return
970 2014-02-04 14:23:32 sneak__ is now known as sneak
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972 2014-02-04 14:25:06 <ItsDom> Also, just to confirm, OP_PUBKEY, OP_PUBKEYHASH and OP_INVALIDOPCODE will also all behave like removed op codes if using in a transaction?
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976 2014-02-04 14:28:49 <TD> sipa: are you still using sipa@ulyssis.org ?
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985 2014-02-04 14:37:32 <sipa> TD: it's forwarded to gmail
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990 2014-02-04 14:43:20 <ThomasV> TD: I guess I should have used the ML in the first place :P
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1003 2014-02-04 15:02:31 <stonecoldpat> petertodd: thumbs up for the old man hash smoke joke
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1010 2014-02-04 15:05:49 <sipa> can i hazh block?
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1026 2014-02-04 15:26:10 <ItsDom> Is there a reason why OP_VERIF doesn't appear as a removed op code despite it behaving like 1 (e.g. leads to invalid tx even if in unexecuting if branch)?
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1049 2014-02-04 16:04:41 <petertodd> ItsDom: It's because OP_VERIF matches (OP_IF <= opcode && opcode <= OP_ENDIF), yet there's no corresponding code for it, thus you end up at the default "return false" of the big switch in EvalScript() even when fExec != true
1050 2014-02-04 16:05:17 <petertodd> ItsDom: as for the "reason", my guess would be it was some kind of mistake
1051 2014-02-04 16:05:33 <petertodd> ItsDom: there's every reason to think scripting was a rush job
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1054 2014-02-04 16:10:07 <ItsDom> petertodd: thanks for the clarification. That's interesting to hear. I wonder why it was rushed (or at least comes across as rushed). Thanks again.
1055 2014-02-04 16:11:19 <petertodd> ItsDom: e.g. how CHECKMULTISIG pops one too many values off the stack, or how CHECKSIG in general is so tightly integrated as to be not very useful, or the RETURN bug, or the complete lack of tests of any kind in the early sourcecode...
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1067 2014-02-04 16:28:49 <ItsDom> petertodd: that's really interesting to know. Are these things noted down anywhere?
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1069 2014-02-04 16:32:41 <torokun> petertodd: all those bugs you mention - are they slated to be fixed?
1070 2014-02-04 16:32:56 <netg_> /2/3
1071 2014-02-04 16:33:06 <sipa> torokun: they can't be fixed
1072 2014-02-04 16:33:16 <sipa> (well, not without unreasonably much effort)
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1074 2014-02-04 16:33:33 <torokun> you could go to new op codes and deprecate the buggy ones
1075 2014-02-04 16:33:46 <sipa> you can't just add new opcodes, that requires a hard fork
1076 2014-02-04 16:34:19 <torokun> nobody can use new op codes until they're in the software
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1078 2014-02-04 16:34:29 <torokun> it shouldn't be a problem
1079 2014-02-04 16:34:30 <sipa> define "in the software"
1080 2014-02-04 16:34:43 <torokun> in the reference client
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1082 2014-02-04 16:34:52 <sipa> _everyone_ in the whole world needs to have an updated client that supports these new opcodes before _anyone_ can use them
1083 2014-02-04 16:35:00 <sipa> that's an exceptionally hard thing to do
1084 2014-02-04 16:35:04 <torokun> correct
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1086 2014-02-04 16:35:26 <sipa> and that's just not reasonable to do for these bugs that can easily be worked around
1087 2014-02-04 16:35:26 <torokun> well, at least most would need it.
1088 2014-02-04 16:35:50 <torokun> remaining clients would just reject those transactions but would be outvoted
1089 2014-02-04 16:36:02 <sipa> you completely misunderstand how bitcoin's consensus works
1090 2014-02-04 16:36:08 <sipa> there is no voting about validity
1091 2014-02-04 16:36:23 <sipa> the only thing the mining system votes on is the _order_ of otherwise valid transactions
1092 2014-02-04 16:36:33 <sipa> but they must be valid
1093 2014-02-04 16:37:20 <torokun> so far as I understand, if you had 80% of the network on a new client and all those clients verified a block, the remaining 20% would have to follow it as it would be the longest chain, no?
1094 2014-02-04 16:37:27 <sipa> no
1095 2014-02-04 16:37:39 <sipa> the rule is: the longest _valid_ block chain is the one accepted
1096 2014-02-04 16:37:50 <sipa> and valid is determined by every single client independently
1097 2014-02-04 16:38:00 <torokun> so 20% would follow another chain then
1098 2014-02-04 16:38:08 <sipa> which is a hard fork, and a disaster
1099 2014-02-04 16:38:18 <sipa> otherwise miners could just 'vote' to give themself 100 BTC in every block
1100 2014-02-04 16:39:21 <ItsDom> There's a list floating round somewhere for proposed changes for an inevitable hardfork - are they on that?
1101 2014-02-04 16:39:31 <torokun> that's not what I meant
1102 2014-02-04 16:39:58 <torokun> I meant that such a fork would not be a disaster if only a tiny number of clients forked
1103 2014-02-04 16:40:12 <sipa> the number is irrelevant
1104 2014-02-04 16:40:21 <sipa> their economic impact is what counts
1105 2014-02-04 16:40:46 <sipa> if one of them includes mtgox or bitpay or coinbase or ..., it would be a disaster
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1107 2014-02-04 16:41:12 <ItsDom> is there still alerts in the protocol? do we have the private key to be able to send out alerts?
1108 2014-02-04 16:41:23 <sipa> a few people do, and yes
1109 2014-02-04 16:41:34 <sipa> though other clients could use their own alert key
1110 2014-02-04 16:41:36 <ItsDom> could that not be employed to help with a fork?
1111 2014-02-04 16:41:40 <sipa> no
1112 2014-02-04 16:41:51 <sipa> well, it can be used to broadcast some emergency message
1113 2014-02-04 16:42:00 <sipa> but for a hard fork, we need _every_ client to upgrade
1114 2014-02-04 16:42:08 <sipa> for some changes, you'd even need to update every wallet
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1116 2014-02-04 16:42:15 <ItsDom> I understand. I was around for the last one:)
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1118 2014-02-04 16:42:26 <sipa> there's only been one hard fork ever
1119 2014-02-04 16:42:50 <ItsDom> I thought there were 2: one with the overflow attack on transaction outputs, and one last year with the block size issue in the database?
1120 2014-02-04 16:43:01 <torokun> and that was a disaster, right?
1121 2014-02-04 16:43:02 <sipa> the first was just a soft fork
1122 2014-02-04 16:43:19 <Goonie> Bitcoin Wallet 3.31 beta is available for testing! https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/101256420499771441772/101256420499771441772/posts/QknuUj6z4M2
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1124 2014-02-04 16:43:47 <ItsDom> sipa: forgive my ignorance - what's the difference between a hard and soft fork?
1125 2014-02-04 16:43:52 <torokun> bitcoin still exists...
1126 2014-02-04 16:43:55 <ItsDom> soft is optional and backwards compatible, hard isnt?
1127 2014-02-04 16:44:18 <sipa> ItsDom: a soft fork means only things that were previously valid become invalid
1128 2014-02-04 16:44:29 <sipa> ItsDom: and for those, it suffices that a majority of miners enforces the rule
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1130 2014-02-04 16:44:51 <sipa> a hard fork is anything that makes something valid that wasn't (a new opcode almost certainly has that effect)
1131 2014-02-04 16:44:56 <torokun> if it happened, the fact is that people running an old client would almost certainly upgrade.
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1133 2014-02-04 16:45:11 <torokun> unless they disagreed with the change
1134 2014-02-04 16:45:12 <ItsDom> torokun: they wouldn't know they had to upgrade
1135 2014-02-04 16:45:25 <sipa> and a hard fork needs 100% of everyone to upgrade (not just miners, and not just 50%)
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1137 2014-02-04 16:46:03 <ItsDom> So soft vs is hard is basically client vs protocol?
1138 2014-02-04 16:46:11 <sipa> both are protocol changes
1139 2014-02-04 16:46:11 <torokun> there would be very few people disconnected enough not to hear the news
1140 2014-02-04 16:46:36 <ItsDom> sipa: I thought the soft fork changed only the implementation (E.g. checks done on the transaction by the client, not the blockchain protocol)
1141 2014-02-04 16:46:37 <sipa> there are also p2p changes, policy changes, ... but those don't really need a globally coordinated upgrade
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1143 2014-02-04 16:46:53 <sipa> ItsDom: a soft fork changes which blocks/transactions are valid
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1149 2014-02-04 16:47:10 <sipa> but in such a way that every old client still accepts anything that the new rules allow
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1151 2014-02-04 16:47:51 <ItsDom> Aaaah, so it is to do with backwards compatibility? (sorry for my constant oversimplifications)
1152 2014-02-04 16:47:55 <sipa> yes
1153 2014-02-04 16:48:04 <sipa> a soft fork is basically a backward compatible protocol change
1154 2014-02-04 16:48:09 <lianj> like the p2sh change
1155 2014-02-04 16:48:17 <sipa> BIP16, BIP30, BIP34 were soft forks
1156 2014-02-04 16:48:54 <sipa> BIP50 was a hard fork
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1159 2014-02-04 16:49:03 <ItsDom> okay, I think I grasp it now. dammit, the more I learn about Bitcoin the more I realise I didn't know, and probably don't know.
1160 2014-02-04 16:49:14 <sipa> normal forks resolve on their own
1161 2014-02-04 16:49:26 <sipa> soft forks resolve once a majority of mining power upgrades
1162 2014-02-04 16:49:32 <sipa> hard forks resolve once everyone upgrades
1163 2014-02-04 16:49:50 <ItsDom> Okay, thanks for that.
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1165 2014-02-04 16:54:42 <petertodd> sipa, ItsDom: yeah, but remember you can add totally new opcodes, even a whole new scripting language, in a soft-fork with a bit of careful design. It's *risky*, but it certainely is possible to do a scriptv2.0 upgrade via a soft-fork.
1166 2014-02-04 16:54:59 <sipa> petertodd: yup, i'm aware :)
1167 2014-02-04 16:55:15 <sipa> though i wouldn't use that to make some incremental fixes
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1169 2014-02-04 16:56:18 <petertodd> sipa: I know, but people reading the chat log would get the wrong impression
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1180 2014-02-04 17:10:52 <jorick> just a quick question regarding mining, as the block header contains the hash of the transactions in it, does that mean that the header changes while mining (as new transactions are added to the pool)?
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1183 2014-02-04 17:15:29 <petertodd> jorick: correct
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1187 2014-02-04 17:24:36 <jorick> but doesnt that mean some of the "work" is lost? wouldnt it be better to disregard the new transactions?
1188 2014-02-04 17:27:28 <petertodd> jorick: NO! mining is progress free, every hash you try has an equal chance of succeeding, independent of the others
1189 2014-02-04 17:28:43 <wumpus> indeed, a common misconception
1190 2014-02-04 17:29:19 <jcorgan> jorick: mining is not a multi-step process toward a fixed solution; each trial hash is independent and has an equal probability of meeting difficulty, even if what is being hashed changes
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1196 2014-02-04 17:33:32 <jcorgan> sipa: in CKDpub, once Il is created from the HMAC output, that is where you'd test it for being 0 or >= curve order, before multiplying by G, correct?
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1198 2014-02-04 17:34:30 <jcorgan> both of those would be error conditions, meaning the chosen i index would be invalide?
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1204 2014-02-04 17:38:48 <sipa> jcorgan: you check Il for >= n
1205 2014-02-04 17:39:01 <sipa> jcorgan: and you check the _sum_ after adding k for being zero
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1207 2014-02-04 17:39:10 <sipa> or in the public key, whether you end up with the point at infinity
1208 2014-02-04 17:39:28 <jcorgan> excellent, thanks
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1213 2014-02-04 17:55:34 <samson_> I see there's a new version of the PolarSSL C library released which supports RIPEMD160, secp256k1 deterministic ECDSA (RFC 6979) - anyone used it ?
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1297 2014-02-04 19:08:54 <jcorgan> sipa: i've pushed some updates that hopefully capture your feedback for the CKDpriv and CKDpub implementations, as well as more examples in the README.md
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1319 2014-02-04 19:19:55 * sipa spawns a discussion about coinjoin on the p2p protocol here
1320 2014-02-04 19:20:11 <jgarzik> separate network
1321 2014-02-04 19:20:13 * TD doesn't really care if hidden service addresses are broadcast across the p2p network, it doesn't seem like much extra bandwidth
1322 2014-02-04 19:20:29 <petertodd> maaku_: anyway, it's very important that we don't bag down wallets with Yet Another P2P System like people would end up doing w/ bitmessage-based schemes
1323 2014-02-04 19:20:40 <BlueMatt> jgarzik/petertodd: I think this discussion could actually be more meta than just about coinjoin...the ability to have bitcoin peers acting on a specific protocol find each other and exchange messages is useful for several different cases
1324 2014-02-04 19:20:54 <BlueMatt> so creating a more general system than "coinjoin uses its own p2p network" would be benificial
1325 2014-02-04 19:20:55 <petertodd> BlueMatt: yeah, I was just about to say - e.g. archival nodes
1326 2014-02-04 19:21:03 <BlueMatt> while I agree it probably shouldnt be on the bitcoin p2p network itself
1327 2014-02-04 19:21:07 <sipa> i might agree to a general find-a-rendezvous-point mechanism in the p2p protocol
1328 2014-02-04 19:21:14 <petertodd> BlueMatt: thing is, define "the bitcoin p2p network"
1329 2014-02-04 19:21:20 <sipa> but i don't think it should be used directly for broadcasting things to wallets
1330 2014-02-04 19:21:21 <BlueMatt> well, ok, yes, theres that
1331 2014-02-04 19:21:31 devrando1 is now known as devrandom
1332 2014-02-04 19:21:43 <sipa> especially as wallets are generally only connected to it for short times
1333 2014-02-04 19:21:44 <petertodd> BlueMatt: if you've got a system where nodes advertise "I do block stuff" and "oh, I also do coinjoin stuff", that's fine, and lets the two networks be separate where they need to be, not separate where they don't
1334 2014-02-04 19:22:00 <petertodd> BlueMatt: (the non-CJ nodes don't need to pass around CJ messages at all...)
1335 2014-02-04 19:22:24 <BlueMatt> petertodd: generally, yes, but note that we cant define lots of NODE_* flags for these kind of things
1336 2014-02-04 19:22:30 <BlueMatt> because people will just want to use them generally
1337 2014-02-04 19:22:38 <BlueMatt> and while we have lots of bits, we dont have /that/ many bits
1338 2014-02-04 19:22:58 <TD> one thing that i'd like is a generic socket based plugin mechanism for bitcoind
1339 2014-02-04 19:22:58 <petertodd> BlueMatt: main thing is that overall privacy/anonymity is helped when lots of different types of traffic are conglomorated when people volunteer to offer the bandwidth
1340 2014-02-04 19:23:02 <BlueMatt> and, also, the |'ing of flags may not be ideal for all protocols (incl block holding)
1341 2014-02-04 19:23:08 <sipa> adding an extra 'extraservices' P2P message is easy if necessary
1342 2014-02-04 19:23:10 <petertodd> BlueMatt: right, hence why it's good to think ahead a bit
1343 2014-02-04 19:23:15 <TD> where you can connect over a unix domain socket or something, and say "i claim service bit N and messages {a,b,c}, please route them to me"
1344 2014-02-04 19:23:17 <petertodd> BlueMatt: though 64 of them isn't bad for now
1345 2014-02-04 19:23:18 <sipa> BlueMatt: yeah, it's why i wanted host key signed messages on the network
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1347 2014-02-04 19:23:32 <TD> then you can easily offer additional services like chain indexing or archival or rendezvous points or whatever
1348 2014-02-04 19:23:37 <TD> but it doesn't have to be tightly integrated with bitcoind
1349 2014-02-04 19:23:47 <petertodd> TD: nah, for anti-spam tight integration is very useful
1350 2014-02-04 19:24:06 <petertodd> TD: anti-spam via fees/coin-days works well here
1351 2014-02-04 19:24:43 <pigeons> maybe transmit "stealth" S-addresses and nonces on this same platofrm as the coinjoin transactions?
1352 2014-02-04 19:25:07 <petertodd> pigeons: stealth was carefully designed to be cj compat with no changes to the CJ protocol...
1353 2014-02-04 19:25:39 <sipa> petertodd: huh?
1354 2014-02-04 19:25:47 <sipa> where do you put the extra key?
1355 2014-02-04 19:25:58 <petertodd> sipa: have you read the paper?
1356 2014-02-04 19:26:03 <sipa> no
1357 2014-02-04 19:26:06 <petertodd> sipa: then do so
1358 2014-02-04 19:26:16 <sipa> yeah if i find the time
1359 2014-02-04 19:26:43 <sipa> link? all i saw was some mailing list threads
1360 2014-02-04 19:26:59 <petertodd> sipa: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg03613.html
1361 2014-02-04 19:27:14 <petertodd> sipa: cj compat is in the "requirements" section
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1365 2014-02-04 19:30:02 <sipa> extra advantage of using a separate output: no utxo impact
1366 2014-02-04 19:30:16 <petertodd> sipa: ?
1367 2014-02-04 19:30:37 <petertodd> sipa: oh, you mean vs. <ephemeral> OP_DROP (rest of script)
1368 2014-02-04 19:30:39 <sipa> using OP_DROP means the extra data ends up in the UTXO set
1369 2014-02-04 19:30:59 <petertodd> sipa: less privacy too, although long-term that kind of idea is more scalable
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1404 2014-02-04 20:13:31 <EasyAt> I have a question about addrman. There are 64 buckets for tried addresses and each bucket can contain 64 address. So, in theory you could have up to 4096 tried addresses cached. Correct?
1405 2014-02-04 20:13:40 <flound1129> anyone know why the strace for bitcoind spams these futex errors?
1406 2014-02-04 20:13:41 <flound1129> [pid 14094] futex(0xae205a4, FUTEX_WAIT_BITSET_PRIVATE|FUTEX_CLOCK_REALTIME, 2824191, {1391544114, 887633000}, ffffffff) = -1 ETIMEDOUT (Connection timed out)
1407 2014-02-04 20:15:31 <sipa> EasyAt: correct
1408 2014-02-04 20:16:08 <gmaxwell> also tried addresses when evicted go into the untried set.
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1410 2014-02-04 20:17:26 <EasyAt> Did you happen to read that paper from those researchers out of Switzerland. Information Propgation in the Bitcoin Network. They peered to all possible nodes they could discover and started relaying blocks immedietly. They cut the orphan rate in half for the 10k blocks that they were peering with everyone
1411 2014-02-04 20:17:47 <sipa> EasyAt: yeah, i know the author :)
1412 2014-02-04 20:18:03 <EasyAt> Neat, that was really cool
1413 2014-02-04 20:19:17 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1414 2014-02-04 20:20:01 <BlueMatt> speaking of which.... ,,(seen cdecker)
1415 2014-02-04 20:20:01 <gribble> cdecker was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 year, 31 weeks, 5 days, 8 hours, 47 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <cdecker> If you want to be notified take a look at http://www.bitcoinmonitor.net/services/
1416 2014-02-04 20:20:05 <BlueMatt> damn
1417 2014-02-04 20:20:22 <EasyAt> Is the purpose of diving the buckets into addresses ranges to make cybill attacks more expensive. As in you need to have IPs in many different ranges?
1418 2014-02-04 20:21:42 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: that paper was really really disapointing.
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1422 2014-02-04 20:23:18 <gmaxwell> like, never realizing that a substantial portion of the delay is an intentional 100ms sleep in bitcoind message processing, or that they failed to observe that their proposed improvement had been implemented by luke-jr a long time previously.
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1425 2014-02-04 20:25:44 <aynstein> is anyone going to the foundations amsterdam thing in may?
1426 2014-02-04 20:26:16 <jgarzik> yes
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1430 2014-02-04 20:30:03 <TD> yep
1431 2014-02-04 20:30:08 <TD> booking flights/hotels is on my todo list
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1441 2014-02-04 20:35:23 <petertodd> aynstein: I'm speaking
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1454 2014-02-04 20:43:50 <aynstein> petertodd: nice, any recomendations on where to stay?
1455 2014-02-04 20:44:04 <aynstein> petertodd: what topic?
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1457 2014-02-04 20:44:38 <petertodd> aynstein: haven't looked into that yet
1458 2014-02-04 20:44:48 <petertodd> aynstein: scalability
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1461 2014-02-04 20:46:14 <aynstein> cool, I can't wait to hear :) I assume this is a good place to go just to learn right, its not just for active devs and business owners is t?
1462 2014-02-04 20:46:43 <petertodd> aynstein: yeah, presentations tend to be technical, but not extremely so
1463 2014-02-04 20:46:58 <EasyAt> gmaxwell: The proposed improvment in message exchange or in trying to make the netowrk more star-like)excuse the non-technicalness)
1464 2014-02-04 20:47:15 <aynstein> I can usually follow, but I have a ways to go before I can contribute anything
1465 2014-02-04 20:47:21 <BlueMatt> ugh, why does the ams conf have to conflict w/ my sister's graduation
1466 2014-02-04 20:47:27 <BlueMatt> bad weekend pick
1467 2014-02-04 20:47:36 <aynstein> BlueMatt: Because you should have been an only child
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1469 2014-02-04 20:47:47 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: message exchange. wrt star like, sure if you centeralize things you can get better performance if no one is attacking.
1470 2014-02-04 20:48:11 <aynstein> sux ;)
1471 2014-02-04 20:51:10 <BlueMatt> ;;seen gavinandresen
1472 2014-02-04 20:51:11 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 days, 1 hour, 20 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> I'm sure I'm missing a dependency in the VM, but I can't figure out what it is (I've got make / autoconf / m4....)
1473 2014-02-04 20:52:03 <gavinandresen> 4 days ago?
1474 2014-02-04 20:52:11 <gavinandresen> time flies....
1475 2014-02-04 20:52:31 aynstein has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1476 2014-02-04 20:52:33 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: are you gonna be in barbados?
1477 2014-02-04 20:52:39 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: yes
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1480 2014-02-04 20:53:33 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: you gonna be in barbados?
1481 2014-02-04 20:53:36 <BlueMatt> yes
1482 2014-02-04 20:53:44 <gavinandresen> cool!
1483 2014-02-04 20:53:52 <BlueMatt> still working on getting the csc dept here to pay for it, but if nothing else coingen can pay for it
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1485 2014-02-04 20:54:23 <TD> lol
1486 2014-02-04 20:54:27 <gavinandresen> I'm still trying to convince sipa and wumpus and gmaxwell to go....
1487 2014-02-04 20:54:27 <TD> coingen
1488 2014-02-04 20:54:42 <BlueMatt> joke-turned-profit-maker :)
1489 2014-02-04 20:54:45 <BlueMatt> those are always nice
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1491 2014-02-04 20:55:20 <aynsteinaltego> gavinandresen: any recomendations where to stay?
1492 2014-02-04 20:55:21 <BlueMatt> yes, sipa, gmaxwell, and wumpus definitely needs to go to barbados
1493 2014-02-04 20:55:29 <gavinandresen> in my experience, it is often the "what the heck, this'll be easy" ideas that turn out to be the most successful.
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1495 2014-02-04 20:55:56 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: sadly, I didnt want it to be successful...I mean the point was to show how ridiculous these things are....
1496 2014-02-04 20:56:00 <gavinandresen> aynsteinaltego: in barbados? the conference resort, if they still have rooms...
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1498 2014-02-04 20:56:32 <BlueMatt> aynsteinaltego: if you're on a budget, theres a cheap place like across the street that has beds, even if not much else
1499 2014-02-04 20:56:34 <aynsteinaltego> oh, sorry, thought it was for amsterdam
1500 2014-02-04 20:56:40 <BlueMatt> oh
1501 2014-02-04 20:57:02 <gavinandresen> barbados is: http://ifca.ai/fc14/accommodation.html
1502 2014-02-04 20:57:37 <TD> i wonder why it lasts so long
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1505 2014-02-04 20:57:41 <TD> 5 days is a lot of time
1506 2014-02-04 20:57:45 <aynsteinaltego> I gotta get a new passport, mine expired and I am in mexico heh
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1508 2014-02-04 20:57:58 <BlueMatt> TD: because why stay in a vacation resort for only a weekend when you can extend it to a week?
1509 2014-02-04 20:58:14 aynsteinaltego is now known as aynstein
1510 2014-02-04 20:58:21 <BlueMatt> my advisor termed financial crypto as "having a reputation for being a beer fest" or something like that
1511 2014-02-04 20:58:22 <gavinandresen> aynsteinaltego: amsterdam I'll be staying in the Mövenpick (I didn't make those arrangmenents)
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1514 2014-02-04 20:58:48 <gavinandresen> mmmm⦠beer⦠beachesâ¦.
1515 2014-02-04 20:58:52 <aynstein> haha
1516 2014-02-04 20:59:01 <aynstein> my life (here in Cabo)
1517 2014-02-04 20:59:06 <gavinandresen> I changed my travel arrangements to Princeton/DC today because we're getting a big storm tonight
1518 2014-02-04 20:59:13 <TD> it does sound tempting ..
1519 2014-02-04 20:59:24 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: speaking at Princeton?
1520 2014-02-04 20:59:24 <gavinandresen> barbados sounds very niceâ¦. you know you wanna go.....
1521 2014-02-04 20:59:28 <TD> though it would be just two weeks after a previous vacation :)
1522 2014-02-04 20:59:39 <BlueMatt> TD: seriously, I'll send you a copy of my calendar
1523 2014-02-04 20:59:40 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'm visiting Ed Felten and his research group tomorrow, and doing a public Q&A
1524 2014-02-04 20:59:45 <BlueMatt> you wouldnt know I'm a student...
1525 2014-02-04 20:59:59 <TD> BlueMatt: did you do moxie's beachfest already too?
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1527 2014-02-04 21:00:13 <TD> gavinandresen: they just published a new paper on coinjoin/mix networks and stuff.
1528 2014-02-04 21:00:15 <BlueMatt> TD: yea, I did that, plus two weeks ago miami btc conf, plus last weekend new york
1529 2014-02-04 21:00:19 <TD> lol
1530 2014-02-04 21:00:30 <gavinandresen> TD: cool, I'll have to read it on the train down
1531 2014-02-04 21:00:32 <BlueMatt> dc in a few weeks, then barbados.....
1532 2014-02-04 21:00:41 <aynstein> is barbados cool just to go to learn, likeI mentioned earlier, I have a ways to go before I feel comfortable contributing
1533 2014-02-04 21:00:49 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: how long you in .us? I thought you were out of .au these days?
1534 2014-02-04 21:01:08 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: shhh, my location is top secret....
1535 2014-02-04 21:01:13 <BlueMatt> ohhhhh
1536 2014-02-04 21:01:14 <BlueMatt> sorry
1537 2014-02-04 21:01:15 <aynstein> haha
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1539 2014-02-04 21:01:29 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: how long are you in .us? I thought you were out of .mars these days?
1540 2014-02-04 21:01:39 * aynstein tweets/posts to facebook/google+ and myspace just for kicks
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1542 2014-02-04 21:02:02 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'm back in Amherst. Moving into a Real(â¢) office next week, though.
1543 2014-02-04 21:02:35 <aynstein> how does one move into a trademark?
1544 2014-02-04 21:02:36 <BlueMatt> damn, I couldnt move more than once every like 5 years....
1545 2014-02-04 21:03:11 <aynstein> sounds constricting
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1547 2014-02-04 21:03:50 <TD> single track conference over 5 days ....
1548 2014-02-04 21:04:24 <BlueMatt> TD: buuutttt...in the Caribbean
1549 2014-02-04 21:04:44 <gavinandresen> I anticipate getting bored and wandering off to explore some beaches and caves.
1550 2014-02-04 21:04:44 <jgarzik> heh
1551 2014-02-04 21:05:21 <TD> yeah the program is not exactly packed ... lot of days they finish at 12 or 3pm
1552 2014-02-04 21:05:25 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: nothing wrong with that, though you should probably bring the so
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1554 2014-02-04 21:05:47 <BlueMatt> TD: so that you have time to chill on the beach :)
1555 2014-02-04 21:05:49 <BlueMatt> (or...code)
1556 2014-02-04 21:06:10 <TD> i always wanted to try coding on the beach, but i imagine it'd be hard to see the screen and sand would get in the keyboard
1557 2014-02-04 21:07:04 <BlueMatt> TD: yea, its largely not practical
1558 2014-02-04 21:07:10 <BlueMatt> if nothing else you get distracted too easily
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1560 2014-02-04 21:08:01 <BlueMatt> coding at the beach at night, otoh, is quite nice
1561 2014-02-04 21:08:26 <petertodd> gavinandresen: oh, they got caves?
1562 2014-02-04 21:09:04 <null> plus all the good looking chicks flocking around guys with laptops at the beach might discract you
1563 2014-02-04 21:09:28 <TD> chicks love it when brogrammers are crushing it
1564 2014-02-04 21:09:44 <BlueMatt> TD: where do I find these chicks?
1565 2014-02-04 21:09:54 <TD> near brogrammers that are crushing it
1566 2014-02-04 21:09:59 <petertodd> BlueMatt: hanging around the more brogrammers more manly than you
1567 2014-02-04 21:10:00 <BlueMatt> ahhh
1568 2014-02-04 21:10:01 <TD> i thought i just said that
1569 2014-02-04 21:10:06 <BlueMatt> need to find more brogrammers, then
1570 2014-02-04 21:10:19 <BlueMatt> petertodd: much brogrammer, very manly?
1571 2014-02-04 21:10:42 <petertodd> BlueMatt: yup... you were so close to meeting them...
1572 2014-02-04 21:11:07 * BlueMatt just needs to go back to interning with companies and living with chick-grammers
1573 2014-02-04 21:11:54 <TD> i searched google images for "brogrammers crushing it" and this was the first hit: http://www.marketplace.org/sites/marketplace.org/files/BROGRAMMER.jpg
1574 2014-02-04 21:12:12 <BlueMatt> heh
1575 2014-02-04 21:12:23 <petertodd> ...
1576 2014-02-04 21:12:39 <TD> i think search is trying to tell me something
1577 2014-02-04 21:12:47 <BlueMatt> just a bit
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1581 2014-02-04 21:17:33 <phantomcircuit> lol
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1583 2014-02-04 21:19:55 <midnightmagic> http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/07/tech/web/brogrammers/index.html
1584 2014-02-04 21:19:56 <midnightmagic> lol
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1586 2014-02-04 21:21:14 <midnightmagic> The amusing thing is when they complain about brogrammers as though it's some new thing, maybe they should be peeking into early Sierra games culture..
1587 2014-02-04 21:21:31 <midnightmagic> It some new thing *to them*..
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1590 2014-02-04 21:24:33 <TD> "'Brogrammer' isn't an exclusionary term," wrote a commenter identifying himself as "Toronto Brogrammer" on a recent Businessweek story. "The female equivalent is called a 'hogrammer' and I have big respect for women that wear that badge proudly."
1591 2014-02-04 21:24:39 <TD> amazing
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1615 2014-02-04 21:54:26 <EasyAt> So, I'm looking through serialize.h. In the IMPLEMENT_SERIALIZE macro it has the 3 hardcoded vars in each of the functions(fGetSize,fWrite,fRead). Only one is ever set to true. Could we replace the 3 variables with only 1 and rely on an enum to determine context? like: const int type = WRITE
1616 2014-02-04 21:54:48 <EasyAt> Sorry if this is ridiculous question
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1626 2014-02-04 22:02:59 <helo> no such thing as ridiculous questions
1627 2014-02-04 22:03:07 <helo> only ridiculous suggestions ;)
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1635 2014-02-04 22:15:02 <EasyAt> Infact, those bools appear pointless. I don't see them ever actual;y used
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1644 2014-02-04 22:24:52 <oleganza> Hello everyone. Now we have nice implementation of BIP32 in Objective-C https://github.com/oleganza/CoreBitcoin/blob/master/CoreBitcoin/BTCKeychain.h
1645 2014-02-04 22:25:15 <oleganza> Who should I ask to put a link to it on https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki ?
1646 2014-02-04 22:27:15 <EasyAt> To ammend that only the fGetSize appears not to be used
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1656 2014-02-04 22:36:04 <andytoshi> lol you're right EasyAt
1657 2014-02-04 22:36:51 <EasyAt> andytoshi: On the enum question?
1658 2014-02-04 22:37:43 <andytoshi> EasyAt: on the fGetSize comment at least
1659 2014-02-04 22:37:49 <EasyAt> oh lol
1660 2014-02-04 22:37:55 <andytoshi> imo an enum should be used, but i guess that's a stylistic thing
1661 2014-02-04 22:38:00 <andytoshi> imo c++ should be scrapped entirely..
1662 2014-02-04 22:38:15 freggles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1663 2014-02-04 22:38:18 <EasyAt> for what?
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1665 2014-02-04 22:39:00 <andytoshi> in a year or two i'll be pushing rust :P. but for now (and since bitcoin was released) i prefer C
1666 2014-02-04 22:39:17 jrklein has joined
1667 2014-02-04 22:39:28 <andytoshi> it has a far simpler data model and way way way less magic compiler behavior.
1668 2014-02-04 22:39:37 <EasyAt> Maybe having the macro drop an enum in all functions that utilize IMPLEMENT_SERIALIZE adds too much overhead?
1669 2014-02-04 22:41:18 <andytoshi> nah, an enum is nothing. and i think IMPLEMENT_SERIALIZE only gets called when there's I/O to be done anyway
1670 2014-02-04 22:41:56 <sipa> EasyAt: why would you want an enum? it's much easier to optimize away this way
1671 2014-02-04 22:42:12 <sipa> actually, no, it just makes no difference
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1673 2014-02-04 22:43:40 <EasyAt> No reason, I was curious whether it was an optimization thing or a styalistic thing
1674 2014-02-04 22:43:49 <EasyAt> I don't know all the compiler-fooery for C++
1675 2014-02-04 22:43:56 <sipa> i doubt style matters in generated code :p
1676 2014-02-04 22:46:04 <jgarzik> bad style == increased bugs
1677 2014-02-04 22:46:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm
1678 2014-02-04 22:46:11 <jgarzik> but yes not strictly in code generation
1679 2014-02-04 22:46:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Looks like, even though VMware Player allows you to nest VMs...
1680 2014-02-04 22:46:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You can't compile OpenSSL in a KVM vm in an VMware VM
1681 2014-02-04 22:46:43 <jgarzik> bad style can hide bugs or encourage various bad behavior that easily leads to mistakes
1682 2014-02-04 22:46:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|s/an/a/
1683 2014-02-04 22:47:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Apparently it doesn't like the assembly
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1685 2014-02-04 22:48:58 <oleganza> sipa: sorry for offtopic. I've made an ObjectiveC implementation of BIP32 ("HD Wallets"). Could you add a link to it on BIP32 page?
1686 2014-02-04 22:49:00 <oleganza> https://github.com/oleganza/CoreBitcoin/blob/master/CoreBitcoin/BTCKeychain.h
1687 2014-02-04 22:49:11 <sipa> oleganza: you can do so yourself :)
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1690 2014-02-04 22:49:42 <oleganza> sipa: should i fork bitcoin/bips or petertodd/bips?
1691 2014-02-04 22:49:48 <sipa> the former
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1695 2014-02-04 22:53:04 <oleganza> sipa: made a pull request. thanks.
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1697 2014-02-04 22:54:07 <sipa> oleganza: do you have test vectors?
1698 2014-02-04 22:54:18 <oleganza> https://github.com/oleganza/CoreBitcoin/blob/master/CoreBitcoin/BTCKeychain+Tests.m
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1700 2014-02-04 22:54:44 <oleganza> sipa: all that are mentioned in BIP32
1701 2014-02-04 22:54:50 <sipa> cool
1702 2014-02-04 22:55:23 <oleganza> sipa: one question. I don't like exposing (0x80000000 | i) as an API for private derivation
1703 2014-02-04 22:55:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right now, we gbuild win32 and win64 in one precise amd64 VM
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1705 2014-02-04 22:55:51 <oleganza> i'd prefer "privateDerivedKeychain" and "publicDerivedKeychain". Do you have thoughts on this?
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1707 2014-02-04 22:55:54 <sipa> oleganza: expose it as (int i, bool ishardened)
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1710 2014-02-04 22:56:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But we gbuild linux32 and linux64 in two separate precise VMs, an i386 and an amd64
1711 2014-02-04 22:56:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why is that?
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1721 2014-02-04 22:57:37 <oleganza> sipa: I'll try [keychain derivedKeychainAtIndex:i private:YES/NO]
1722 2014-02-04 22:57:49 <sipa> oleganza: i've recently rewritten bip32 significantly
1723 2014-02-04 22:58:01 <sipa> it's now hardened/normal instead of private/public
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1725 2014-02-04 22:58:05 <oleganza> and âisPrivateDerivation method so the child index does not need to have 0x80000000
1726 2014-02-04 22:58:12 <sipa> for derivation
1727 2014-02-04 22:58:29 <oleganza> is it on bitcoin/bips already?
1728 2014-02-04 22:58:32 <oleganza> i missed it
1729 2014-02-04 22:58:34 <sipa> it's a pullreq
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1731 2014-02-04 23:00:06 <oleganza> i see
1732 2014-02-04 23:01:24 <oleganza> sipa: oh, cool. That's much clearer document now
1733 2014-02-04 23:01:59 <oleganza> i'd only mentioned endianness of uint32 explicitly
1734 2014-02-04 23:03:00 <oleganza> oh, it's there
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