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   3 2014-02-06 00:06:26 <jiffe98> andytoshi: sweet thanks
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  13 2014-02-06 00:12:33 <jiffe98> hmm, genesis block seems to use some opcodes in a higher range than you defined there
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  15 2014-02-06 00:14:40 <andytoshi> jiffe98: yeah, sorry, i never got around to learning what the deal there is..
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  17 2014-02-06 00:15:36 <andytoshi> i think it may just be merged-mining gibberish
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  42 2014-02-06 00:38:06 <jiffe98> that's cool
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  64 2014-02-06 01:15:41 <skinnkavaj> sipa: Is bitmessage secure? Do you trust it?
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  68 2014-02-06 01:18:53 <sipa> i've never used it
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 158 2014-02-06 03:09:23 <jiffe98> is there anything special about the genesis block that it needs to be hard coded?
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 162 2014-02-06 03:10:56 <benkay> it'd be confusing to the network if you jumped on and said "the last block i've received is NULL"
 163 2014-02-06 03:11:08 <benkay> but feel free to send a PR ;)
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 169 2014-02-06 03:17:33 <jiffe98> that's just a function of the peer communication
 170 2014-02-06 03:18:12 <sipa> peers need to agree on where the block tree starts, in order to be able to find a path through it they agree upon
 171 2014-02-06 03:18:38 <sipa> it's just as hardcoded as the rule that we don't want to spend coins without valid signature
 172 2014-02-06 03:19:51 <jiffe98> well what if you have a checkpoint set for the genesis block but don't hard code the parameters of the block
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 175 2014-02-06 03:20:40 <sipa> jiffe98: ok, but what difference is that in practice
 176 2014-02-06 03:20:55 <sipa> you're right - we could checkpoint the genesis block and fetch it from the network
 177 2014-02-06 03:21:10 <sipa> but at least the genesis block had to be hardcoded in the first bitcoin node that ever ran
 178 2014-02-06 03:21:16 smash has joined
 179 2014-02-06 03:21:17 <sipa> no reason to remove it
 180 2014-02-06 03:21:27 <sipa> (while we are planning to remove checkpoints at some point...)
 181 2014-02-06 03:21:53 <jiffe98> checkpoints not necessary anymore?
 182 2014-02-06 03:21:59 <sipa> they are not necessary
 183 2014-02-06 03:22:07 <sipa> they're a hack to avoid a dos attack
 184 2014-02-06 03:22:29 <sipa> while synchronizing, if we disable signature checking, a node could be fed an invalid chain
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 186 2014-02-06 03:23:05 <sipa> the correct solution is first synchronizing the headers, so we know the best chain in advance, and only then start verifying it
 187 2014-02-06 03:23:26 <sipa> and for example disable signature checking if they're one month worth of proof of work known to be on top of it
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 190 2014-02-06 03:23:38 <sipa> instead of relyong an centrally-set checkpoints in the source code
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 192 2014-02-06 03:24:57 <jiffe98> gotcha, yeah I always thought checkpointing kind of centralized the whole thing but thought it to be a necessary evil to keep things on track
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 195 2014-02-06 03:25:21 <sipa> if anything, you must understand that checkpoints are not a means to prevent reorganizing the chain
 196 2014-02-06 03:25:37 <sipa> if they end up doing that, bitcoin's consensus system has already failed
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 204 2014-02-06 03:27:33 <jiffe98> makes sense
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 206 2014-02-06 03:27:48 <jiffe98> looks like a checkpoint was set not too long ago
 207 2014-02-06 03:28:17 <sipa> we don't set checkpoints less than 2016 blocks ago
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 323 2014-02-06 06:35:33 <Lightsword> PSA https://bitcoinaverage.com/markets.htm#USD seems to have been compromised, do not use their API
 324 2014-02-06 06:36:29 <jcorgan> Lightsword: details?
 325 2014-02-06 06:36:38 <Lightsword> look at the bid price
 326 2014-02-06 06:36:58 <Lightsword> was causing our calculations to be significantly off
 327 2014-02-06 06:37:06 <jcorgan> what's the API URL
 328 2014-02-06 06:37:23 <jcorgan> oh geez, i see it now
 329 2014-02-06 06:37:44 <Lightsword> https://api.bitcoinaverage.com/ticker/USD/
 330 2014-02-06 06:37:45 <Lightsword> yeah
 331 2014-02-06 06:37:48 <jcorgan> you think it is a compromise and not just a screwup?
 332 2014-02-06 06:38:08 <Lightsword> not sure, but it caused all of our prices to be way lower than they should have been
 333 2014-02-06 06:38:19 <Lightsword> just happened this evening a few hours ago
 334 2014-02-06 06:38:22 justanotheruser has joined
 335 2014-02-06 06:38:27 <Lightsword> we switched to a different API
 336 2014-02-06 06:38:28 justanotheruser has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
 337 2014-02-06 06:39:17 justanotheruser has joined
 338 2014-02-06 06:39:23 <Lightsword> we caught it before any damage was done
 339 2014-02-06 06:40:29 coiners has joined
 340 2014-02-06 06:40:58 <Lightsword> anyone have any idea how to contact their operator? I sent an email but have not heard back
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 342 2014-02-06 06:41:41 CourtJesterG has left ("Please Donate: Litecoin payments: LUJnwfYNhNVNeP7DCxrewbJD9zZNR1nZ3E")
 343 2014-02-06 06:42:13 <Imbue> oh wow, that's interesting
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 349 2014-02-06 06:44:21 <jcorgan> i sure don't.  i use the api personally for some stuff, but the last data has been good, so i didn't notice
 350 2014-02-06 06:45:35 DaQatz has joined
 351 2014-02-06 06:45:59 <Lightsword> jcorgan I'm not sure what happened but it seems not many have noticed, we just happened to use the bid price for calculations
 352 2014-02-06 06:46:11 alfer has joined
 353 2014-02-06 06:46:32 <jcorgan> good catch though, thanks for the PSA
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 365 2014-02-06 06:55:16 <cortexA9> hello
 366 2014-02-06 06:56:20 benkay has joined
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 368 2014-02-06 06:57:06 <cortexA9> how work the bitcoin network?
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 372 2014-02-06 07:00:29 Evolyn_ is now known as Evolyn
 373 2014-02-06 07:02:15 <cortexA9> *works
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 376 2014-02-06 07:06:33 <Apocalyptic> cortexA9, #bitcoin
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 386 2014-02-06 07:11:07 <Lightsword> what would be the best way to replace bitcoind's leveldb with postgres for a production server?
 387 2014-02-06 07:11:12 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
 388 2014-02-06 07:11:30 <Lightsword> would I just need to replace the wrapper? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/leveldbwrapper.cpp
 389 2014-02-06 07:11:43 fionnan has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 392 2014-02-06 07:12:39 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: two different things
 393 2014-02-06 07:12:43 <Luke-Jr> LevelDB is a key/value store
 394 2014-02-06 07:12:48 <Luke-Jr> PostgreSQL is a relational database
 395 2014-02-06 07:14:45 <Lightsword> I would like to be able to perform rapid searches of the blockchain and since LevelDB doesn't have indexes certain things are very slow.
 396 2014-02-06 07:15:32 ThomasV has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 397 2014-02-06 07:15:48 <Luke-Jr> what kind of index is it missing?
 398 2014-02-06 07:15:54 alfer has left ()
 399 2014-02-06 07:17:15 <Lightsword> it doesn't have any index support at all as far as I can tell
 400 2014-02-06 07:17:36 <uiop> Luke-Jr: from http://code.google.com/p/leveldb/ : "Limitations: ... , and it has no support for indexes. ..."
 401 2014-02-06 07:18:23 <Luke-Jr> it's a key/value store..
 402 2014-02-06 07:18:35 <Lightsword> For a production server LevelDB is far too slow for searches, thats why I want to use postgres
 403 2014-02-06 07:18:37 <Luke-Jr> it has whatever index you make
 404 2014-02-06 07:19:13 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: if something else could perform better, we'd be using it
 405 2014-02-06 07:19:32 <sipa> depends on your use case
 406 2014-02-06 07:19:42 <Lightsword> I thought LevelDB was just used since it is lightweight
 407 2014-02-06 07:19:59 <Lightsword> and good enough for a single wallet
 408 2014-02-06 07:20:07 <petertodd> Lightsword: leveldb isn't for the wallet
 409 2014-02-06 07:20:07 <Luke-Jr> sipa: well, I suspect his "use case" itself may lack a use case ;p
 410 2014-02-06 07:20:07 <Lightsword> but it doesn't seem to scale
 411 2014-02-06 07:20:22 <sipa> we don't use leveldb for the wallet at all...
 412 2014-02-06 07:20:23 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: if your problem is wallet performance, that's entirely unrelated
 413 2014-02-06 07:20:40 <Lightsword> isn't leveldb used to store the blockchain?
 414 2014-02-06 07:20:48 <petertodd> Lightsword: yes, blockchain != wallet
 415 2014-02-06 07:20:51 <uiop> Luke-Jr: SELECT * FROM blockchain WHERE (txin_count > 7 AND scriptype = 'p2sh') OR txin_0_addr IN (txout_0_addr,txout_0_addr);
 416 2014-02-06 07:21:07 <uiop> e.g.
 417 2014-02-06 07:21:16 <Luke-Jr> uiop: explain why that is useful.
 418 2014-02-06 07:21:16 <Lightsword> by wallet I meant including the blockchain
 419 2014-02-06 07:21:24 <Lightsword> bitcoin-qt
 420 2014-02-06 07:21:52 <sipa> bitcoin-qt's wallet performance has nothing to do with its storage engine
 421 2014-02-06 07:22:00 <sipa> it is admittedly slow
 422 2014-02-06 07:22:22 <Lightsword> right, but I want I need to be able to search the blockchain
 423 2014-02-06 07:22:23 <sipa> but that's because it recomoutes many things over andnover again
 424 2014-02-06 07:22:26 alfer has joined
 425 2014-02-06 07:22:27 <Lightsword> which is stored in leveldb
 426 2014-02-06 07:22:29 <uiop> Luke-Jr: for ad-hoc queries of the blockchain, for e.g. visualization-with-graphviz software, blockchain statistic generation, datamining for not-necessarily "nefarious" purposes
 427 2014-02-06 07:22:50 <petertodd> Lightsword: ok, then add more indexes
 428 2014-02-06 07:22:57 hmsimha has joined
 429 2014-02-06 07:23:14 <Lightsword> I want to just put it in a database that actually supports indexes natively
 430 2014-02-06 07:23:21 <Lightsword> ex postgres
 431 2014-02-06 07:23:38 <uiop> Luke-Jr: (i don't know what Lightsword's use case(s) are, just speaking to my own personal off-the-cuff use cases)
 432 2014-02-06 07:23:40 <petertodd> Lightsword: really, you'll probably find that just making your own blockchain database serves your purposes better - just get the blocks from another node
 433 2014-02-06 07:23:46 alfer has quit (Client Quit)
 434 2014-02-06 07:24:11 <sipa> yeah, bitcoind's storage is designed to be very fast for exactly what it does
 435 2014-02-06 07:24:19 <lianj> Lightsword: fyi, blockchain in postgres is about 200GB with indexes
 436 2014-02-06 07:24:29 <Lightsword> lianj thats not a problem
 437 2014-02-06 07:24:38 <petertodd> lianj: what type of indexes do you have?
 438 2014-02-06 07:24:42 cortexA9 has left ()
 439 2014-02-06 07:25:10 <lianj> petertodd: lots. full tx/inputs/outputs/addresses
 440 2014-02-06 07:25:13 alfer has joined
 441 2014-02-06 07:25:21 <Lightsword> petertodd I want to make my own blockchain database using postgres
 442 2014-02-06 07:25:38 <uiop> that's on my to-eventually-get-around-to list also
 443 2014-02-06 07:25:50 <petertodd> lianj: huh, 200GB is a lot bigger than 15GB... didn't realize the indexes blew it up so much
 444 2014-02-06 07:26:18 <Lightsword> for a production server 200GB is not a problem
 445 2014-02-06 07:26:20 <uiop> good thing 200GB is small wrt modern disks
 446 2014-02-06 07:26:32 <sipa> bitcoind + TTximndex + addrindex is only a few GB extra
 447 2014-02-06 07:26:40 <sipa> txindex
 448 2014-02-06 07:27:00 <alfer> so it appears the linux distro of the bitcoin client has statically linked binaries included - how can I build a statically linked version of bitcoind from the sources?
 449 2014-02-06 07:27:08 <Lightsword> the closest I found to what I want to do is https://github.com/bitcoin-abe/bitcoin-abe but it still has to read leveldb, I want to outright replace leveldb
 450 2014-02-06 07:28:05 <petertodd> Lightsword: light I said, just read blocks into your database - you can get them off the RPC interface - and do whatever you want with them in your own program. mucking about int he bitcoin core code won't do what you want
 451 2014-02-06 07:28:06 <sipa> still has to read leveldb? what?
 452 2014-02-06 07:28:10 <lianj> petertodd: yea, lets say 100-200GB :D depending on what additional indexes you might put in for exotic quieres that require to be fast
 453 2014-02-06 07:28:32 aynstein has joined
 454 2014-02-06 07:29:01 <uiop> Lightsword: my plan was (is) to just dump the blockchain (w/ txindex) out of bitcoin-qt, parse it, xform to format suitable for input into postgres (COPY much faster than INSERT*10^alot)
 455 2014-02-06 07:29:30 <uiop> it doesn't seem to be highly difficult
 456 2014-02-06 07:29:37 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: you're going to have to start from scratch I think (unless bitcoin-ruby has the code lianj uses..)
 457 2014-02-06 07:29:50 <petertodd> uiop: you can do even better reading the blocks direct from the on-disk blockchain*.dat files - doing that is trivial
 458 2014-02-06 07:30:04 <petertodd> uiop: I wrote some python code to do that in ~10min with pyton-bitcoinlib
 459 2014-02-06 07:30:06 <sipa> or use the P2P protocol to read them
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 463 2014-02-06 07:30:25 <uiop> petertodd: oh nice, noted
 464 2014-02-06 07:30:26 <Lightsword> it seems simpler to just replace the database controller in bitcoin-qt with one for postgres, how tied to leveldb is bitcoin-qt?
 465 2014-02-06 07:30:28 <lianj> Luke-Jr: i don't use the storage part of bitcoin-ruby, but it has postgres too
 466 2014-02-06 07:30:29 <petertodd> uiop: though keep in mind orphans are stored in blockchain*.dat too if your node saw them
 467 2014-02-06 07:30:53 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: you'd end up rewriting Bitcoin-Qt
 468 2014-02-06 07:31:01 <petertodd> uiop: IIRC even python was doing something like 1MB/sec full serialization/deserialization roundtrip
 469 2014-02-06 07:31:11 <lianj> like others said, just get the blocks and push the in the database how you want/need to
 470 2014-02-06 07:31:16 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 471 2014-02-06 07:31:55 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: you can't just "unplug" a key/value db and "plug in" a relational db in its place..
 472 2014-02-06 07:32:26 caktux_ has joined
 473 2014-02-06 07:32:39 <Luke-Jr> well, you *could*, but you'd not gain anything from it, and lose a lot of performance..
 474 2014-02-06 07:32:45 <Lightsword> any particular reason you can't? postgres supports key/value, it just also has additional functionality
 475 2014-02-06 07:32:52 <petertodd> uiop: oh, and you know, you could do better with parallelism: a full index type thing can always have a "txout spent" index that's separate from what txouts actually exist :)
 476 2014-02-06 07:33:15 <petertodd> Lightsword: touching consensus critical code when you don't have to is a sign of madness
 477 2014-02-06 07:33:16 <lianj> Lightsword: bitcoind doesn't store its blocks in leveldb
 478 2014-02-06 07:33:16 <sipa> Lightsword: you could use postgres to store what we're currently store in leveldb just fine
 479 2014-02-06 07:33:42 <sipa> Lightsword: bjt it wouldn't give you any benefit, as we don't store things in a way you want them
 480 2014-02-06 07:33:51 bumlike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 481 2014-02-06 07:33:55 <sipa> worse, we don't store that data at all
 482 2014-02-06 07:34:01 <uiop> petertodd: on a related note, "make -j24" never ceases to amaze me :)
 483 2014-02-06 07:34:03 <petertodd> lianj: and bitcoind only appends to the blockchain files, so you can just store indexes and use those same files
 484 2014-02-06 07:34:21 <lianj> yea, but he didn't want that
 485 2014-02-06 07:34:22 <petertodd> uiop: lol, me too, and I've only got 8 cores :)
 486 2014-02-06 07:34:43 <petertodd> uiop: raid1 intel ssds though, heh
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 490 2014-02-06 07:35:06 <Lightsword> basically the issue I want to avoid is having to keep to completely different databases in sync for production servers, thats why I want to have bitcoind directly use postgres
 491 2014-02-06 07:35:09 <uiop> petertodd: ssds really did change the game
 492 2014-02-06 07:35:16 <sipa> Lightsword: in leveldb we currently store block headers, disk positions of blocks, and for every txid its unspent outputs
 493 2014-02-06 07:35:23 <Luke-Jr> make -j 200 is always fun..
 494 2014-02-06 07:35:31 Coincide_ has joined
 495 2014-02-06 07:35:32 <sipa> Lightsword: all in custom-designed compact formats
 496 2014-02-06 07:36:05 <petertodd> Lightsword: to get reorgs right on your postgres implementation within bitcoind would take more work than doing a implementation separate from bitcoind
 497 2014-02-06 07:36:07 <sipa> Lightsword: and optionally, for every transaction where it is on disk
 498 2014-02-06 07:36:29 * uiop just realizes Lightsword wants to replace leveldb w/ postgres *IN* bitcoind ..
 499 2014-02-06 07:36:55 kevinholla has joined
 500 2014-02-06 07:37:06 <sipa> Lightsword: notice in particular that nothing in there has even remotely anything to do with addresses
 501 2014-02-06 07:37:37 <sipa> so no postgres index will help you an address-related query
 502 2014-02-06 07:38:05 <sipa> uiop: yeah
 503 2014-02-06 07:38:21 alfer has quit ()
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 505 2014-02-06 07:38:46 <Lightsword> well, I would be creating additional tables, I just can't figure out a proper way to deploy leveldb
 506 2014-02-06 07:39:23 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: addresses don't exist in the blockchain.
 507 2014-02-06 07:39:49 <Luke-Jr> they're merely an abstraction
 508 2014-02-06 07:39:58 <sipa> and as bitcoind's database is essential for its validation, if you'd make any mistake in how to deal with reorganizationa wrt your database, you risk rejecting valid blocks or the other way around
 509 2014-02-06 07:40:15 <Lightsword> well yeah, I would have a table for that which relates to the blockchain I think
 510 2014-02-06 07:40:31 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: so just make that table independent from bitcoind
 511 2014-02-06 07:41:01 <Lightsword> but then I have to deploy 2 databases which is difficult since there aren't really sysops tools for leveldb from what I can tell
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 513 2014-02-06 07:41:07 <Luke-Jr> …
 514 2014-02-06 07:41:31 <sipa> the main reason is that leveldb is not a database server
 515 2014-02-06 07:41:40 <Luke-Jr> compared to what you're talking about, deploying 2 databases is TOTALLY TRIVIAL
 516 2014-02-06 07:41:42 <sipa> it's a library to maintain a key value store
 517 2014-02-06 07:41:58 Pucilowski has joined
 518 2014-02-06 07:41:58 <sipa> it doesn't give you a database yoiu can access from different processes
 519 2014-02-06 07:42:18 disident has joined
 520 2014-02-06 07:43:08 <sipa> bitcoind's database is designed very specifically for what bitcoind needs, and is not intended to be used by anything else
 521 2014-02-06 07:43:16 <petertodd> sipa: oh, leveldb can't be accessed with multiple threads?
 522 2014-02-06 07:43:16 <Lightsword> hmm, well what would be the best way to replicate and sync the 2 databases in a deployment?
 523 2014-02-06 07:43:29 <sipa> petertodd: threads yes, processes no
 524 2014-02-06 07:43:30 <uiop> Lightsword: my off-the-cuff idea based on an incomplete idea of your use case is to mirror the db in postgres, and sync it at the desired rate
 525 2014-02-06 07:43:46 <petertodd> Lightsword: you don't have to "sync" them, just keep track of what block headers are current in your thing, and handle reorgs yourself
 526 2014-02-06 07:44:05 <petertodd> Lightsword: I've done this myself - it's not hard
 527 2014-02-06 07:44:06 tych0 has joined
 528 2014-02-06 07:44:33 <Lightsword> does leveldb just have to be copied manually then?
 529 2014-02-06 07:44:43 <Lightsword> or just as a file
 530 2014-02-06 07:45:04 <petertodd> Lightsword: you don't have to be copying anything; replay the blockchain on your second server in the same way as the first
 531 2014-02-06 07:45:31 <Lightsword> as in wait for it to sync from scratch?
 532 2014-02-06 07:45:43 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 533 2014-02-06 07:45:50 <petertodd> you can copy the blockchain*.dat files from one machine to another
 534 2014-02-06 07:46:11 <petertodd> should be able to copy the whole .bitcoin database
 535 2014-02-06 07:46:32 <Lightsword> petertodd, I suppose, was trying to avoid that though
 536 2014-02-06 07:46:34 <uiop> Lightsword:  in the same manner you'd create the postgres db to begin with
 537 2014-02-06 07:46:42 wateratosthenes has joined
 538 2014-02-06 07:46:46 <Lightsword> postgres has replication though
 539 2014-02-06 07:46:58 <petertodd> Lightsword: huh? that's the same as what you're proposing, size wise
 540 2014-02-06 07:47:35 <Lightsword> but postgres replication is more advanced than just copying a file
 541 2014-02-06 07:47:47 <uiop> Lightsword: oh sure, but you need to update at least one of your replicated postgres dbs from the *.dat files on a recurring basis
 542 2014-02-06 07:48:01 <petertodd> sheesh, you don't have to replicate anything, just run bitcoind on the second machine
 543 2014-02-06 07:48:24 profreid has joined
 544 2014-02-06 07:49:17 <petertodd> honestly, you've been arguing about this for sufficiently long enough you could have whipped up a independent postgres index creator thing in the same time with python-bitcoinlib
 545 2014-02-06 07:50:04 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 546 2014-02-06 07:50:16 <Luke-Jr> heck, without bitcoinlib..
 547 2014-02-06 07:50:34 <Lightsword> just seems like there must be a better option than using a straight file transfer
 548 2014-02-06 07:50:49 <petertodd> Lightsword: why do you think file transfer comes into this?
 549 2014-02-06 07:51:01 <Lightsword> copying leveldb .dat files
 550 2014-02-06 07:51:24 <Lightsword> resyncing with bitcoin network from scratch takes far too long
 551 2014-02-06 07:51:26 <Pucilowski> How would I go about achieving some sort of atomicity with bitcoin withdrawals over rpc?
 552 2014-02-06 07:51:29 <petertodd> Lightsword: hell, creat postgres on one machine that runs bitcoind and a python script, and use postgres replication on the other machine from the postgres database
 553 2014-02-06 07:51:41 <Pucilowski> A way to issue a withdrawal and receive a guarantee it happened
 554 2014-02-06 07:52:23 <Lightsword> petertodd: well that would replicate the postgres part, but I would want bitcoind running on both as well
 555 2014-02-06 07:52:28 <petertodd> Pucilowski: can't do that right now - what you probably want is a way to have the wallet spit out transactions, but not actually add them to the wallet until something else broadcasts them on the network
 556 2014-02-06 07:52:45 <Pucilowski> i think that'd achieve the same goal, yes
 557 2014-02-06 07:52:46 <petertodd> Lightsword: if bitcoind is running on both, run your python postgres updater on both...
 558 2014-02-06 07:53:02 <petertodd> Pucilowski: pull-reqs accepted :) (it's a feature I've been kinda wanting too)
 559 2014-02-06 07:53:09 <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: if you want a wallet, without an independently maintained copy of the blockchain, use Armory
 560 2014-02-06 07:53:12 <Pucilowski> also, suppose that I wish to run a service where I'll hold bitcoins on behalf of users, deposits/withdrawals, the works
 561 2014-02-06 07:53:24 <Luke-Jr> Pucilowski: good luck with the licensing :/
 562 2014-02-06 07:53:24 smash has joined
 563 2014-02-06 07:53:27 <Pucilowski> What are the cons/pros of relying on bitcoind to maintain account balances?
 564 2014-02-06 07:53:33 <Luke-Jr> Pucilowski: it doesn't scale.
 565 2014-02-06 07:53:48 <Pucilowski> What's the most common bottleneck?
 566 2014-02-06 07:53:54 <petertodd> Pucilowski: key management is easy to screw up and screwing up means you lose your funds
 567 2014-02-06 07:53:57 <Luke-Jr> Pucilowski: the wallet
 568 2014-02-06 07:53:58 <Lightsword> petertodd: I would be starting with one completely empty server so I would not initially have bitcoind on both, I would want to sync both bitcoind and postgres
 569 2014-02-06 07:54:03 <Pucilowski> which specific function though
 570 2014-02-06 07:54:12 <uiop> Lightsword: you can simply just run bitcoind on one, sync that pg db from the *.dat's, then replicate with your desired method(s)
 571 2014-02-06 07:54:19 <petertodd> Lightsword: then don't start it on an empty server, copy the files over...
 572 2014-02-06 07:55:29 <uiop> Lightsword: or store the bitcoind files on nfs, or ...
 573 2014-02-06 07:55:38 n0n0 has joined
 574 2014-02-06 07:55:54 <Lightsword> petertodd, I suppose that would work, just don't like deploying with file copy, prefer native database syncing
 575 2014-02-06 07:55:57 <Luke-Jr> LOL @ NFS
 576 2014-02-06 07:56:10 <uiop> Luke-Jr: heh, /me has become a recent nfs lover
 577 2014-02-06 07:56:17 <Luke-Jr> I can't imagine that working well.
 578 2014-02-06 07:56:26 <petertodd> Lightsword: look, we've told you the right way to do it, you don't get it; I've got better things to do. Bye
 579 2014-02-06 07:56:30 <Luke-Jr> certainly not with multiple clients trying to use it
 580 2014-02-06 07:57:11 <uiop> Luke-Jr: oh yeah, didn't mean to suggest that (although in retrospect i should have made that clear)
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 582 2014-02-06 07:59:17 <uiop> i'd imagine running bitcoind w/ data file over nfs would possibly be non-ideal (e.g. mmap) or possibly problematic (dependent upon what leveldb code is up to)
 583 2014-02-06 08:00:36 <petertodd> uiop: I think what's most interesting about nfs and the even more complex network filesystems after it, is how much better rcs's like git work in comparison
 584 2014-02-06 08:01:06 <petertodd> uiop: fundementally merging changes is really hard, and you wind up either doing it manually or failing spectacularly every so often
 585 2014-02-06 08:01:32 <Luke-Jr> +1
 586 2014-02-06 08:01:43 <Luke-Jr> I use git for my email
 587 2014-02-06 08:01:52 <petertodd> same here! git annex specifically
 588 2014-02-06 08:01:54 <uiop> git is good for everything
 589 2014-02-06 08:02:03 <petertodd> uiop: even large files with git annex
 590 2014-02-06 08:02:29 <petertodd> I've got ~1TB of media files with it
 591 2014-02-06 08:02:38 <uiop> heh
 592 2014-02-06 08:02:59 <Luke-Jr> I'm too disorganised for that :<
 593 2014-02-06 08:03:12 <petertodd> uiop: awesome feeling to be able to type git annex fsck, wait a few hours, and know that every last byte is safe
 594 2014-02-06 08:03:49 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I thoguht git-annex specifically disclaimed being a backup system? :P
 595 2014-02-06 08:04:35 * uiop looks into git annex
 596 2014-02-06 08:04:36 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: that's why I have amazon glacier as a backend, and then backup my (much smaller) git annex directories to multiple places
 597 2014-02-06 08:04:51 <wumpus> it isn't a backup system, it just keeps track of files that you have to backup somewhere yourself
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 600 2014-02-06 08:05:38 <petertodd> wumpus: very good description
 601 2014-02-06 08:05:47 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: those two things sound equivalent to me..
 602 2014-02-06 08:07:01 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: point is, using git annex doesn't magically make anything redundent, even if you store them on multiple backends - you need the master git repo to get them back and if you lose all copies of that you're in trouble
 603 2014-02-06 08:07:20 cadaver has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 604 2014-02-06 08:07:27 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I can't git annex my git annex repo⁈
 605 2014-02-06 08:07:36 <wumpus> ...lol
 606 2014-02-06 08:07:46 <Luke-Jr> I'd think without the repo, you could still dig through the objects manually..
 607 2014-02-06 08:07:48 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: heh, well, you sync that repo to multiple machines
 608 2014-02-06 08:08:04 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: git annex supports encrypted backends, so...
 609 2014-02-06 08:08:26 k0k0 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 610 2014-02-06 08:08:40 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: like, my setup for my mail, is I sync the repo to three machines, and the files get stored on one machine as well as amazon glacier
 611 2014-02-06 08:08:46 <wumpus> putting git annex in git annex would be pointless it just moves the problem a level up :p
 612 2014-02-06 08:09:05 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yes, I was joking :p
 613 2014-02-06 08:09:07 <petertodd> (I also have completely different backup mechanisms for redundency - don't want to just trust git annex!)
 614 2014-02-06 08:09:11 <wumpus> it's git annexes all the way!
 615 2014-02-06 08:09:36 <petertodd> wumpus: nah, at some point it just dumps everything in the dogecoin blockchain
 616 2014-02-06 08:09:44 <Luke-Jr> btw, are you guys going to Texas? we're plotting to invent proof-of-steak there.
 617 2014-02-06 08:10:02 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: whens texas?
 618 2014-02-06 08:10:06 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: March
 619 2014-02-06 08:10:11 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: what dates?
 620 2014-02-06 08:10:24 <Luke-Jr> March 5-6
 621 2014-02-06 08:10:46 <petertodd> gonna be at the financial crypto conf
 622 2014-02-06 08:11:11 VinceSamios has joined
 623 2014-02-06 08:11:37 <Luke-Jr> meh
 624 2014-02-06 08:11:46 <Luke-Jr> are we at the point where we have overlapping conferences now? :/
 625 2014-02-06 08:12:06 <petertodd> well, financial crypto conf is not just bitcoin
 626 2014-02-06 08:12:15 <petertodd> ...yet
 627 2014-02-06 08:12:59 <Luke-Jr> I guess on the bright side, at this rate I'll be able to just attend ones I can drive to <.<
 628 2014-02-06 08:13:21 <petertodd> ha
 629 2014-02-06 08:13:47 <petertodd> in april I'll have one I can walk to
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 670 2014-02-06 09:33:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wimpish: something just occurred to me
 671 2014-02-06 09:33:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus*
 672 2014-02-06 09:33:41 * wumpus slaps michagogo|cloud's autocorrect
 673 2014-02-06 09:33:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What is your lxc environment like?
 674 2014-02-06 09:34:06 <wumpus> the default created by gitian
 675 2014-02-06 09:34:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No, I mean
 676 2014-02-06 09:34:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What environment are
 677 2014-02-06 09:34:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You running gitian in?
 678 2014-02-06 09:34:29 <wumpus> ubuntu 12.04
 679 2014-02-06 09:34:47 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 680 2014-02-06 09:34:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|My DO droplet is also running 12.04
 681 2014-02-06 09:34:54 zcopley_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 682 2014-02-06 09:35:01 paraipan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 683 2014-02-06 09:35:01 Subo1977_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 684 2014-02-06 09:35:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...but the VM I was using is running 13.04
 685 2014-02-06 09:35:23 paraipan_ has joined
 686 2014-02-06 09:35:34 <wumpus> and that's the one with the assembly errors?
 687 2014-02-06 09:35:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No
 688 2014-02-06 09:35:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's the one that didn't match
 689 2014-02-06 09:36:09 Subo1977 has joined
 690 2014-02-06 09:36:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The one with assembly errors was KVM running in a VM
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 702 2014-02-06 09:56:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: I'm spinning up a raring droplet to test if that's the cause
 703 2014-02-06 09:56:50 <wumpus> what didn't match? yesterday everything matched, right?
 704 2014-02-06 09:57:07 <wumpus> except for that stupid .tar.gz but that was explainable
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 707 2014-02-06 10:00:52 <The_Fly> hi, anyone here up for helping me test this bitcoin-related site im about to launch?
 708 2014-02-06 10:01:12 <The_Fly> i want to do a gentle soft-launch first to catch any show-stopping bugs
 709 2014-02-06 10:01:24 <The_Fly> before i tweet/redit it out to a wider audience
 710 2014-02-06 10:01:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: No, not when I built in my VM
 711 2014-02-06 10:01:58 <The_Fly> give me a shout, any time, if you are able to help i would be most grateful
 712 2014-02-06 10:02:00 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: I don't remember that
 713 2014-02-06 10:02:30 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: so you build 0.9.0rc1 using the descriptors in #3622 and got non-matching outputs?
 714 2014-02-06 10:02:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: look back to 22:00-sh UTC
 715 2014-02-06 10:02:45 <wumpus> can you send me the files ?
 716 2014-02-06 10:03:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Let me check what's there
 717 2014-02-06 10:03:12 <wumpus> I'm about to give up this gitian stuff completely, it drives me mad
 718 2014-02-06 10:03:24 <wumpus> days on end I've only be looking at builds
 719 2014-02-06 10:03:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'm setting up a DO 13.04 gitian environment
 720 2014-02-06 10:03:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(holy crap, it's fast on an SSD)
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 723 2014-02-06 10:05:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Any preferred method of getting you the file?
 724 2014-02-06 10:05:13 <wumpus> just put it on some server
 725 2014-02-06 10:05:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|k
 726 2014-02-06 10:06:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Looking back to the logs from last night...
 727 2014-02-06 10:06:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|looks like I built deps and boost, and each of those didn't match
 728 2014-02-06 10:06:48 <Imbue> hello. I am playing around with ECC, creating functions that add points, multiply points by scalars, and so on
 729 2014-02-06 10:06:58 <wumpus> did you also build the final result?
 730 2014-02-06 10:07:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No, doesn't look like it
 731 2014-02-06 10:07:15 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 732 2014-02-06 10:07:28 <Imbue> I am pretty much there, but I am unsure how to represent the infinity point - it seems that it's not possible - should I just create a special case?
 733 2014-02-06 10:07:54 <Imbue> what I want to do is basically make it so that my point_add function returns A if it is asked the result of A + O
 734 2014-02-06 10:08:01 <Imbue> but how to manage that escapes me
 735 2014-02-06 10:08:44 YoY has joined
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 737 2014-02-06 10:09:41 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: it's very well possible it's another sorting or timestamp issue, in which case the final result will match... but do send me the intermediate files
 738 2014-02-06 10:10:24 <wumpus> I mean we can't even trust the sort command to behave the same with different locales, what else could there be sneaking in....
 739 2014-02-06 10:11:27 <wumpus> computers are just not meant to be deterministic :p
 740 2014-02-06 10:12:03 <Imbue> lol
 741 2014-02-06 10:14:12 <wumpus> maybe gitian should use a language such as python, or even C++, to drive the build commands instead of bash script, something that relies less on the GNU utilities with all their wonderful customizability through the environment
 742 2014-02-06 10:15:14 <wumpus> or maybe LXC is just not 'isolated' enough
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 744 2014-02-06 10:15:32 <Imbue> hm, it seems more like the code I am looking at is just daft, it shouldn't need to reference the point at infinity
 745 2014-02-06 10:16:01 <wumpus> Imbue: yes, I don't remember special cases for that in other ecdsa code, it's just an error if it arises
 746 2014-02-06 10:16:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: see PM
 747 2014-02-06 10:17:00 <Imbue> http://pastebin.com/tTHWGTFc
 748 2014-02-06 10:17:06 <Imbue> this is the pseudocode I have
 749 2014-02-06 10:17:32 <Imbue> the general principle makes sense to me, I just need to find a way of having some sensible 'start point'
 750 2014-02-06 10:18:37 RoboTeddy has joined
 751 2014-02-06 10:19:22 <Imbue> ah wait, it's kind of obvious. if R exists, do point add, if it doesn't yet, initialize it as N
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 755 2014-02-06 10:22:46 <sipa> Imbue: typical implementations have a boolean variable along with the coordinates to denote infinity
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 758 2014-02-06 10:24:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: 1e534dc2e337bc0ac35ebd6544e15c4641b245c621706cc2c03436de545c600a  build/out/boost-linux32-1.55.0-gitian-r1.zip
 759 2014-02-06 10:24:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's on raring DO
 760 2014-02-06 10:24:51 <sipa> DO?
 761 2014-02-06 10:25:47 <wumpus> can you check yourself wether it matches, I'm busy comparing the other boost...
 762 2014-02-06 10:25:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|DigitalOcean
 763 2014-02-06 10:25:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It doesn't
 764 2014-02-06 10:26:04 <wumpus> uhm actually it does
 765 2014-02-06 10:26:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Erm
 766 2014-02-06 10:26:14 <wumpus> see the op in #3622
 767 2014-02-06 10:26:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It doesn't match my VM, that ia
 768 2014-02-06 10:26:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|that is*
 769 2014-02-06 10:26:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, so the variable isn't which release of Ubuntu is used as the host
 770 2014-02-06 10:27:10 mappum has joined
 771 2014-02-06 10:27:18 <wumpus> oh man... you know what is different?
 772 2014-02-06 10:27:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't
 773 2014-02-06 10:27:24 <wumpus> the file permissions
 774 2014-02-06 10:27:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ffff
 775 2014-02-06 10:27:33 <wumpus> of the .o file in the .a in the zip!
 776 2014-02-06 10:27:40 <wumpus> wowohwohfsdjfadskljfasdkljfjklddfjklsdfjld  *crash*
 777 2014-02-06 10:27:45 <sipa> *TILT*
 778 2014-02-06 10:27:49 <wumpus> idd
 779 2014-02-06 10:27:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I think cfields was seeing something like that with LXC when he was working on the OS X
 780 2014-02-06 10:27:58 benrcole has joined
 781 2014-02-06 10:28:11 <sipa> i didn't even know that .a files stored permissions...
 782 2014-02-06 10:28:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|devrandom made some change, or something, I think
 783 2014-02-06 10:28:22 <cfields> it's the umask
 784 2014-02-06 10:28:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But that didn't fix it
 785 2014-02-06 10:28:35 <cfields> it changed in ubuntu
 786 2014-02-06 10:28:44 <wumpus> all that metadata... let's kill all the metadata....
 787 2014-02-06 10:28:52 <wumpus> just the meat not the crap
 788 2014-02-06 10:29:10 <sipa> find -type f | sort | xargs cat >bitcoin.cat
 789 2014-02-06 10:29:37 <wumpus> but yes adding an umask at the top of the descriptors is probably the way to go
 790 2014-02-06 10:29:44 <cfields> wumpus: already done
 791 2014-02-06 10:29:47 <wumpus> lol sipa
 792 2014-02-06 10:29:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: I think that didn't help
 793 2014-02-06 10:30:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Do you mean >>?
 794 2014-02-06 10:30:02 tlrobinson has joined
 795 2014-02-06 10:30:04 <cfields> wumpus: it doesn't affect things early enough in the build
 796 2014-02-06 10:30:16 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: no
 797 2014-02-06 10:30:24 <wumpus> hmm? how do you mean early enough?
 798 2014-02-06 10:30:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh
 799 2014-02-06 10:30:27 <cfields> the main output dir still gets created 002
 800 2014-02-06 10:30:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right, nvm
 801 2014-02-06 10:30:32 Lightsword has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 802 2014-02-06 10:31:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: 0473f96aa382d4448994fde4192155f3a96454a7436efdc04c5fc693b185d864  boost-linux64-1.55.0-gitian-r1.zip
 803 2014-02-06 10:31:01 <wumpus> ok but this is about the build directory, I think I create that myself
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 805 2014-02-06 10:31:04 <cfields> or 022, i forget which is backwards now
 806 2014-02-06 10:31:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(match)
 807 2014-02-06 10:31:43 <cfields> be careful, busted lxc will match another busted lxc
 808 2014-02-06 10:31:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm
 809 2014-02-06 10:32:03 <cfields> (busted is relative)
 810 2014-02-06 10:32:10 <wumpus> at least this doesn't affect the executables
 811 2014-02-06 10:32:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So I wonder, what's the difference between lxc on a DO raring droplet and lxc on my raring Vbox VM?
 812 2014-02-06 10:32:38 <wumpus> vbox doesn't leak the umask
 813 2014-02-06 10:32:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm?
 814 2014-02-06 10:33:16 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: your user's umask may be different between vbox and droplet
 815 2014-02-06 10:33:19 <wumpus> if you build in a vbox you get a bog-default Ubuntu 12.04 image with a well-defined default umask, if you use LXC then somehow your parent system's umask gets leaked in
 816 2014-02-06 10:33:26 <cfields> i don't remember exactly where it pulls from
 817 2014-02-06 10:33:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: No, I don't mean a vbox VM
 818 2014-02-06 10:33:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(as the build system)
 819 2014-02-06 10:33:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I mean, build in LXC on a droplet vs build in LXC on a Vbox VM
 820 2014-02-06 10:34:08 <cfields> either way, i'd recommending verifying with kvm, then tracking down the real bug
 821 2014-02-06 10:34:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|cfields: How do you check umask?
 822 2014-02-06 10:34:22 <cfields> as it kind of defeats the purpose of gitian otherwise
 823 2014-02-06 10:34:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And we've verified with kvm
 824 2014-02-06 10:34:28 <wumpus> cfields: all the kvm builds match
 825 2014-02-06 10:34:29 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: touch file && ls -al file
 826 2014-02-06 10:34:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|KVM matches the droplet
 827 2014-02-06 10:35:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|-rw-rw-r-- 1 micha micha 0 פבר  6 12:23 file
 828 2014-02-06 10:35:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|-rw-rw-r-- 1 micha micha 0 Feb  6 10:23 file
 829 2014-02-06 10:35:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's a match
 830 2014-02-06 10:35:40 <wumpus> there is no problem when using KVM build system, it's only with lxc on raring
 831 2014-02-06 10:35:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: LXC on raring in my VM
 832 2014-02-06 10:36:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|LXC on raring in the DO droplet is fine
 833 2014-02-06 10:36:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I wonder
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 835 2014-02-06 10:36:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What if I create a 12.04 VM on my machine
 836 2014-02-06 10:36:51 <wumpus> I'm going to try adding 'umask 022' at the top of the descriptors, I think it will work in this case as the .o files are created by the build process which should use the umask
 837 2014-02-06 10:37:14 <cfields> wumpus: see current gitian, it injects that before the descriptors
 838 2014-02-06 10:37:30 <wumpus> cfields: okay
 839 2014-02-06 10:37:46 <cfields> wumpus: you're free to try it, ofc :)
 840 2014-02-06 10:38:04 <cfields> but i've already poked at this one a bit a while back
 841 2014-02-06 10:38:08 <wumpus> I'm giving up on determinism in the intermediate outputs in that case... this is just too much
 842 2014-02-06 10:38:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|38658a215429992a8d066f827b6f46ca63abc14173983647d16ac0e21a9ddfb7  build/out/bitcoin-deps-linux32-gitian-r3.zip
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 844 2014-02-06 10:38:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's the raring droplet
 845 2014-02-06 10:38:33 <cfields> what distro is used for build these days?
 846 2014-02-06 10:38:39 <cfields> er, version
 847 2014-02-06 10:38:42 <wumpus> ubuntu 12.04
 848 2014-02-06 10:38:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|cfields: precise VMs
 849 2014-02-06 10:38:48 sj_mackenzie has joined
 850 2014-02-06 10:39:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|My local VM, though, has c609049c60d96e193a172d0c5c0f44914032f562ee1691d18218bb3c0275ec32  build/out/bitcoin-deps-linux32-gitian-r3.zip
 851 2014-02-06 10:39:19 <cfields> mm
 852 2014-02-06 10:39:50 <cfields> wumpus: i wouldn't worry about the intermediate ones, instead, bump up versions after release
 853 2014-02-06 10:40:00 <cfields> trusty should have all of my binutils patches included
 854 2014-02-06 10:40:10 <cfields> so everything is deterministic
 855 2014-02-06 10:40:38 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: have you built the executables yet with that VM?
 856 2014-02-06 10:40:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: linux64 deps building now
 857 2014-02-06 10:41:13 <wumpus> I'm 99% sure those will match, but let's see
 858 2014-02-06 10:41:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|erm, built*
 859 2014-02-06 10:41:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aea5d842642b299c7ca89daa1e1df477f43e04d413243df94ed5b5a0c526c5a0  bitcoin-deps-linux64-gitian-r3.zip
 860 2014-02-06 10:41:39 <wumpus> forget the intermediate outputs for now
 861 2014-02-06 10:41:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|micha@Raring-Virtualbox-amd64:~/gitian-lxc/gitian-builder$ ./bin/gbuild ../bitcoin/contrib/gitian-descriptors/gitian-linux.yml --commit bitcoin=v0.9.0rc1
 862 2014-02-06 10:42:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, god dammit
 863 2014-02-06 10:42:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I forgot to move the zips to the inputs folder
 864 2014-02-06 10:42:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And apparently gitian nukes the build folder right at the start
 865 2014-02-06 10:42:36 <wumpus> I suggest including that in your script :p
 866 2014-02-06 10:42:38 <wumpus> yes it does
 867 2014-02-06 10:43:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hit ctrl-c as soon as I saw sha256sum: bitcoin-deps-linux32-gitian-r3.zip: No such file or directory
 868 2014-02-06 10:43:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sha256sum: bitcoin-deps-linux64-gitian-r3.zip: No such file or directory
 869 2014-02-06 10:43:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But it was already gone
 870 2014-02-06 10:43:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Script? WHat script?
 871 2014-02-06 10:43:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right now there's no script
 872 2014-02-06 10:43:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(other than gbuild)
 873 2014-02-06 10:43:29 <wumpus> the script that does your gitian builds, or are you typing the commands every time?
 874 2014-02-06 10:43:49 TD has joined
 875 2014-02-06 10:43:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Typing, for now
 876 2014-02-06 10:43:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's not that much to type
 877 2014-02-06 10:44:05 <wumpus> no but it's very easy to make mistakes
 878 2014-02-06 10:44:19 <wumpus> and mistakes cost a lot of time
 879 2014-02-06 10:44:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bin/gb<tab> ../bi<tab>contr<tab>git<tab>e<tab>de<tab>l<tab>
 880 2014-02-06 10:44:45 <wumpus> lol
 881 2014-02-06 10:45:09 <wumpus> also I build them in a loop by default to see if the runs match
 882 2014-02-06 10:45:52 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 883 2014-02-06 10:46:06 banghouse has joined
 884 2014-02-06 10:46:48 <wumpus> but you're right, it includes umask 002 by default
 885 2014-02-06 10:47:06 <wumpus> which should result in permissions of 664
 886 2014-02-06 10:47:44 <wumpus> the KVM-built dependencies have this correctly, michagogo|cloud's LXC-built (on raring) have 644
 887 2014-02-06 10:47:52 <cfields> wumpus: can you run an 'ar --help' on a target?
 888 2014-02-06 10:48:07 <cfields> to see if the deterministic option exists there?
 889 2014-02-06 10:48:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The odd thing is
 890 2014-02-06 10:48:26 <wumpus> so somehow it's forcing the umask to 022 independent of what gitian builder is doing
 891 2014-02-06 10:48:28 <wumpus> cfields: sure
 892 2014-02-06 10:48:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|touchfile && ls -la file, on the raring vm, returned 664
 893 2014-02-06 10:50:04 soylentbomb has joined
 894 2014-02-06 10:50:24 <wumpus> cfields: http://www.hastebin.com/cekimegiha.vhdl
 895 2014-02-06 10:50:57 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 896 2014-02-06 10:51:22 <cfields> wumpus: hmm, it's there
 897 2014-02-06 10:51:31 <wumpus> what's there?
 898 2014-02-06 10:51:32 <cfields> ar -D should do it
 899 2014-02-06 10:52:12 <wumpus>   [D]          - use zero for timestamps and uids/gids
 900 2014-02-06 10:52:21 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 901 2014-02-06 10:52:22 <wumpus> that also normalizes the permissions?
 902 2014-02-06 10:52:32 <cfields> at least, in recent versions, -D means deterministic
 903 2014-02-06 10:52:54 <cfields> hmm, that might've changed though. you don't have -U which reverses that
 904 2014-02-06 10:53:07 <wumpus>        D   Operate in deterministic mode.  When adding files and the archive index use zero for UIDs, GIDs, timestamps, and use consistent file modes for
 905 2014-02-06 10:53:07 <wumpus>            all files.  When this option is used, if ar is used with identical options and identical input files, multiple runs will create identical output
 906 2014-02-06 10:53:07 <wumpus>            files regardless of the input files' owners, groups, file modes, or modification times.
 907 2014-02-06 10:53:12 <wumpus> that's the manpage on Ubuntu 12.04
 908 2014-02-06 10:53:19 <wumpus> so should be OK
 909 2014-02-06 10:53:35 <cfields> right
 910 2014-02-06 10:53:58 <cfields> so if you can sneak that in for whatever's making the .a's, it should avoid the problem
 911 2014-02-06 10:54:05 adam3us has joined
 912 2014-02-06 10:55:03 <wumpus> I suppose the easiest way to sneak it in would be to make our own 'ar' script that passes through arguments and adds -D
 913 2014-02-06 10:55:26 <wumpus> otherwise we'll have to check all dependencies independently how to do it
 914 2014-02-06 10:55:27 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 915 2014-02-06 10:55:35 <wumpus> or maybe there is some environment variable for it
 916 2014-02-06 10:56:18 kevinlol has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 917 2014-02-06 10:57:12 <wumpus> I vaguely remember that for qt there was no other way to override ar arguments, but that may have changed in 5.x...
 918 2014-02-06 10:57:23 StarenseN has joined
 919 2014-02-06 10:57:36 <cfields> it didn't change
 920 2014-02-06 10:57:48 <cfields> i had a patch ready to submit
 921 2014-02-06 10:57:56 <cfields> but there was a CLA involved, so i stopped there
 922 2014-02-06 10:58:10 <sipa> CLA?
 923 2014-02-06 10:58:32 <wumpus> that's also where I'd stop
 924 2014-02-06 10:58:36 <cfields> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contributor_License_Agreement
 925 2014-02-06 10:58:51 <sipa> ic
 926 2014-02-06 10:58:59 <TD> sipa: google also has one, btw
 927 2014-02-06 10:59:03 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 928 2014-02-06 10:59:06 <sipa> TD: i know
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 939 2014-02-06 11:04:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Okay, rebuilt deps -- gitian-linux.yml from your repo building now in the VM
 940 2014-02-06 11:05:45 caktux_ has joined
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 943 2014-02-06 11:06:13 <Imbue> sipa: thanks for the help, managed to fix the problem now
 944 2014-02-06 11:06:28 <Imbue> my tool takes 1 second to get a pubkey from a privkey... super efficient! :p
 945 2014-02-06 11:06:43 torokun has joined
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 948 2014-02-06 11:07:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, I want to create a 12.04 VM to test with
 949 2014-02-06 11:07:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But at some point today, Ubuntu 12.04.4 is going to be relased
 950 2014-02-06 11:07:27 <sipa> Imbue: i believe my library does that in around 0.1ms
 951 2014-02-06 11:07:30 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 952 2014-02-06 11:07:52 <Imbue> sipa: I'm doing it in pretty much the least efficient manner that would actually complete
 953 2014-02-06 11:08:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Imbue: Wow, the least efficient manner is only 10,000 times slower?
 954 2014-02-06 11:08:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|:-P
 955 2014-02-06 11:08:12 <sipa> yeah, first make it working :)
 956 2014-02-06 11:09:06 <Imbue> well, i'm sure I could run it on a NES, or deliberately gimp my algorithms michagogo|cloud :P
 957 2014-02-06 11:10:51 <Imbue> what's confusing me is that my mult algorithm seems to sometimes be operating on 512bit integers, which makes me think I've forgotten a modulo somewhere
 958 2014-02-06 11:11:40 <Imbue> in fact that's silly, I certainly have :p
 959 2014-02-06 11:12:21 <sipa> what language?
 960 2014-02-06 11:12:36 <Imbue> python, i'm surprised by how easy it is to use infinite size integers
 961 2014-02-06 11:12:44 <Imbue> though that's likely one of the reasons it's so slow
 962 2014-02-06 11:13:26 <cfields> heh
 963 2014-02-06 11:14:02 <sipa> here's my lowest-level part for the field multiplication: https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/blob/master/src/impl/field_5x52_int128.h
 964 2014-02-06 11:14:15 s7r has joined
 965 2014-02-06 11:14:18 <sipa> it uses 5 52-bit integers to represent the number
 966 2014-02-06 11:14:22 s7r has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
 967 2014-02-06 11:14:24 <Imbue> think I might have nailed it, looks like my inverse algorithm does not mod
 968 2014-02-06 11:14:32 <Imbue> hopefully this fixes the 512-bit thing
 969 2014-02-06 11:15:46 <wumpus> cfields: hmm boost has <archiveflags>, let's hope it does what it's supposed to
 970 2014-02-06 11:16:05 <cfields> wumpus: heh, good luck with that :)
 971 2014-02-06 11:16:15 <cfields> wumpus: iirc, there's a mis-spelling in there somewhere
 972 2014-02-06 11:16:19 drayah has joined
 973 2014-02-06 11:16:22 <cfields> there was for osx, anyway
 974 2014-02-06 11:16:30 <wumpus> thanks, I'll need it...
 975 2014-02-06 11:16:37 <cfields> it was archivflags or something
 976 2014-02-06 11:16:43 <wumpus> hahaha
 977 2014-02-06 11:16:59 <wumpus> boost is really built to drive people crazy, who uses jam to build a c++ library
 978 2014-02-06 11:17:28 <cfields> it's insane that the most useful lib has the most worthless buildsystem
 979 2014-02-06 11:18:08 skydome has joined
 980 2014-02-06 11:18:19 <cfields> it's really a shame. takes some serious meditation to decide if you can commit to that dependency or not
 981 2014-02-06 11:18:47 <wumpus> also the lack of either .la or .pc to sanely find the libs/dependencies is.. disturbed
 982 2014-02-06 11:19:01 <wumpus> yes
 983 2014-02-06 11:19:07 <cfields> heh, no shit
 984 2014-02-06 11:19:10 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 985 2014-02-06 11:20:23 <Imbue> yep, nailed it, 0.4 sec now :p
 986 2014-02-06 11:20:25 <wumpus> but I agree it's one of C++ most useful libraries, it makes the language from a roll-everything-yourself masochism outlet to actually a convenient and useful lanaguage
 987 2014-02-06 11:20:52 <cfields> wumpus: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-archive-maintainers/2013-12/msg00010.html
 988 2014-02-06 11:21:10 <cfields> i tried :)
 989 2014-02-06 11:21:14 <wumpus> cfields: heh, nuff said
 990 2014-02-06 11:21:30 drayah has joined
 991 2014-02-06 11:22:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Erm, my internet connection just dropped... I wonder what that did to the build?
 992 2014-02-06 11:22:55 <wumpus> should do nothing to the build
 993 2014-02-06 11:23:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Will it continue to run in the background?
 994 2014-02-06 11:23:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(the one on DO)
 995 2014-02-06 11:23:14 <wumpus> it wouldn't be very deterministic if it relied on a continuous internet connection
 996 2014-02-06 11:23:30 <wumpus> only if you started it in screen/tmux I guess
 997 2014-02-06 11:23:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No, but I lost the terminal the build was running in
 998 2014-02-06 11:23:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Nope :-/
 999 2014-02-06 11:23:55 <wumpus> most scripts/applications don't really like killing the controlling terminal
1000 2014-02-06 11:24:02 <wumpus> not sure if gitian is different
1001 2014-02-06 11:24:35 <wumpus> usually they die the next time they try to print something
1002 2014-02-06 11:24:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, looks like it's still running
1003 2014-02-06 11:25:11 <cfields> with gitian, i usually have to take a hammer to it to make it stop running
1004 2014-02-06 11:25:15 ThomasV has joined
1005 2014-02-06 11:25:24 <cfields> so it'll probably finish the build at least :)
1006 2014-02-06 11:25:45 <wumpus> well I can kill it using ctrl-c when building using KVM, LXC is very hard to convince to stop
1007 2014-02-06 11:26:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tailf var/build.log shows the build still running
1008 2014-02-06 11:26:18 <cfields> wumpus: yea, that's probably the case here too
1009 2014-02-06 11:28:20 HaltingState has joined
1010 2014-02-06 11:32:10 <wumpus> either ar or boost is doing a good job ignoring the -D flag
1011 2014-02-06 11:32:36 <wumpus> boost, it seems
1012 2014-02-06 11:33:26 one_zero has quit ()
1013 2014-02-06 11:34:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6884655/
1014 2014-02-06 11:34:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's on the DO raring droplet
1015 2014-02-06 11:34:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Looks like gitian died as soon as the build finished
1016 2014-02-06 11:34:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But I was able to use libexec/copy-from-target with a little help from a reading of the gbuild script
1017 2014-02-06 11:34:57 <wumpus> it did still copy the outputs
1018 2014-02-06 11:35:00 <wumpus> oh
1019 2014-02-06 11:35:45 <wumpus> seems they match!
1020 2014-02-06 11:35:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Again, though, this is the droplet
1021 2014-02-06 11:36:29 fanquake has left ()
1022 2014-02-06 11:36:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Where the deps and boost matched as well
1023 2014-02-06 11:37:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Here are the 32-bit build results from my VM, which is currently running the 64-bit build: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6884665/
1024 2014-02-06 11:38:59 cpir has joined
1025 2014-02-06 11:39:18 <wumpus> cfields: did you ever get archiveflags to work?
1026 2014-02-06 11:39:23 <wumpus> or, archivflags
1027 2014-02-06 11:39:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Looks like a match, except for the tarball
1028 2014-02-06 11:40:11 <wumpus> yes, the tarball still doesn't work
1029 2014-02-06 11:40:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, okay
1030 2014-02-06 11:40:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So despite boost and deps not being deterministic, looks like the build is
1031 2014-02-06 11:40:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bitcoin build*
1032 2014-02-06 11:40:58 <wumpus> yes the actual compiledcode is determnistic, that's great
1033 2014-02-06 11:41:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bitcoin linux build*
1034 2014-02-06 11:43:53 <torokun> I haven't looked at it for a while, but does boost really give you that much you couldn't do pretty straightforwardly with stl?
1035 2014-02-06 11:44:17 <wumpus> yes, it does
1036 2014-02-06 11:44:54 <wumpus> http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_55_0/
1037 2014-02-06 11:49:26 <torokun> I guess the networking, image, and inter process stuff seems useful
1038 2014-02-06 11:50:15 <wumpus> also parsing, threading, boost::signals, filesystem
1039 2014-02-06 11:50:43 Bear13yte has quit (Quit: Bear13yte)
1040 2014-02-06 11:51:35 agricocb has joined
1041 2014-02-06 11:53:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Should I take a look at the Windows stuff now?
1042 2014-02-06 11:54:14 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: sure, but I'm only interested in the final output for now, the intermediate files will probably not match
1043 2014-02-06 11:55:43 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1044 2014-02-06 11:56:19 drayah has joined
1045 2014-02-06 11:56:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: even with http://paste.ubuntu.com/6884665/?
1046 2014-02-06 11:56:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|erm
1047 2014-02-06 11:56:29 RoboTeddy has joined
1048 2014-02-06 11:56:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: even with laanwj:2014_02_gitian_windows_deps_fix?
1049 2014-02-06 11:57:33 Raziel has joined
1050 2014-02-06 11:57:37 <wumpus> well as we just discovered it's still not complete
1051 2014-02-06 11:57:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|We did?
1052 2014-02-06 11:57:56 <wumpus> yes...
1053 2014-02-06 11:58:22 <wumpus> ar and the .a files
1054 2014-02-06 11:58:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, right
1055 2014-02-06 11:58:56 <wumpus> let's not forget it that quickly
1056 2014-02-06 12:00:18 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1057 2014-02-06 12:01:07 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1058 2014-02-06 12:05:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, here's my local VM: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6884762/
1059 2014-02-06 12:06:00 <sipa> wumpus: why is that a problem? can't you do something like touch all .o files with a particular timestamp before ar'ing?
1060 2014-02-06 12:06:23 <wumpus> sipa: passing -D on ar would do, really
1061 2014-02-06 12:06:34 <sipa> so, why don't we?
1062 2014-02-06 12:06:36 <wumpus> sipa: except that doing that for every dependency is a lot of research
1063 2014-02-06 12:06:39 <wumpus> yes, why don't we...
1064 2014-02-06 12:06:46 <wumpus> I'm trying it for boost now
1065 2014-02-06 12:06:46 <sipa> oh right, not in our code
1066 2014-02-06 12:06:49 <wumpus> it's ignoring everything I try
1067 2014-02-06 12:06:59 <wumpus> boost's build system is a hell
1068 2014-02-06 12:07:47 <wumpus> it's just another small thing of many, after I fixed this, who knows what will be the next thing that is slightly different based on the environment that will mess with it
1069 2014-02-06 12:07:51 <wumpus> it's just a never-ending rabbit hole
1070 2014-02-06 12:08:43 <sipa> we need a fully deterministic system emulator
1071 2014-02-06 12:08:53 <wumpus> KVM does it fine :)
1072 2014-02-06 12:08:55 <sipa> with a clock that ticks once per executed instruction
1073 2014-02-06 12:09:09 <sipa> and deterministic process scheduler in the kernel
1074 2014-02-06 12:09:11 <wumpus> indeed that'd make sense
1075 2014-02-06 12:09:11 drayah has joined
1076 2014-02-06 12:09:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: and it should have no hardware requirements
1077 2014-02-06 12:09:25 <sipa> yeah implement it as turing machine
1078 2014-02-06 12:09:30 <sipa> we don't care about runtime, right? :p
1079 2014-02-06 12:09:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(i.e. no need for hardware virt)
1080 2014-02-06 12:09:54 <wumpus> at least all the toolchains should stop inserting all kind of nonsense metadata in their output
1081 2014-02-06 12:10:16 <sipa> yeah, timestamps, who came up with that??
1082 2014-02-06 12:10:37 <wumpus> yep... and file permissions and users/groups in a shared library, who came up with that?
1083 2014-02-06 12:10:50 micronxd has joined
1084 2014-02-06 12:11:00 <wumpus> I can understand it for archives, if you want to use it for backups...
1085 2014-02-06 12:11:09 <wumpus> eh, static library*
1086 2014-02-06 12:11:25 <wumpus> though I wouldn't be surprised if shared libraries contained the same kind of cruft
1087 2014-02-06 12:11:34 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1088 2014-02-06 12:13:09 <torokun> not having used boost in like 10 years, can't you bypass this stuff and just include what you use?
1089 2014-02-06 12:13:42 <wumpus> yes, I can just go do something else, the end result is deterministic, but it frustrates me
1090 2014-02-06 12:14:43 justanotheruser1 has joined
1091 2014-02-06 12:15:00 micronxd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1092 2014-02-06 12:15:04 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1093 2014-02-06 12:15:15 Exbuhe has joined
1094 2014-02-06 12:15:26 <wumpus> hah I've even got boost build to segfault, how's that
1095 2014-02-06 12:15:42 <sipa> boost _build_ ??
1096 2014-02-06 12:16:21 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1097 2014-02-06 12:16:24 <warren> wumpus: no overheating?  that happens randomly while I gitian
1098 2014-02-06 12:16:51 <wumpus> yes... I'm trying to convince it to pass flags to the archiver, I'm trying to debug what happens, I've added debug statements in the gcc.jam now it segfaultss
1099 2014-02-06 12:17:13 <wumpus> warren: no overheating, the crashes are... deterministic!
1100 2014-02-06 12:18:27 torokun has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1103 2014-02-06 12:24:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|00736b701c01d71680b52a0a2682e38e4bfb05f80563511d358b9cc4e77ee874  bitcoin-deps-win32-gitian-r10.zip
1104 2014-02-06 12:24:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|a1e1f8729bd69add02c8c6ccadadba9e95de65d295889e6c12399abd7c91ee9e  bitcoin-deps-win64-gitian-r10.zip
1105 2014-02-06 12:29:05 skinnkavaj has joined
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1107 2014-02-06 12:31:14 wallet42 has joined
1108 2014-02-06 12:33:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|those were from the DO droplet
1109 2014-02-06 12:34:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|These are from the VM: e86cac569e5fb7bcfbd80c0a9bd83be45eb1f896e1a94128d5ebb1a2c16a0ac1  bitcoin-deps-win32-gitian-r10.zip
1110 2014-02-06 12:34:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|15cbe05b6c0399030dc50be5b2bb4e673e9a84732ebcb3cd5bc17ec514bb4eac  bitcoin-deps-win64-gitian-r10.zip
1111 2014-02-06 12:37:23 cpir has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1117 2014-02-06 12:42:40 <c--O-O> hi
1118 2014-02-06 12:43:12 <c--O-O> I was wondering, did the interface of bitcoins undergone changes?
1119 2014-02-06 12:43:38 <c--O-O> is that why mtgox is having problem processing bitcoins? because the padding changed?
1120 2014-02-06 12:45:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Droplet: d02d2f32d0621315c683edf151f820d3fc362c99e8d9b3d9acf3b8080f114282  boost-win32-1.55.0-gitian-r6.zip
1121 2014-02-06 12:45:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ed7f66cedb05ca4787aae1a2716d09e2f371ccc412163aa41fa68d8185da6063  boost-win64-1.55.0-gitian-r6.zip
1122 2014-02-06 12:45:48 <andytoshi> c--O-O: nothing has changed in the bitcoin protocol. mtgox has no excuse
1123 2014-02-06 12:46:03 <c--O-O> I see.
1124 2014-02-06 12:46:10 <sturles> c--O-O: No, the padding hasn't changed, but bitcoind has become more picky about what it accepts after 0.8.0: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8392.0;all
1125 2014-02-06 12:46:12 <c--O-O> I thought so too
1126 2014-02-06 12:46:27 <sipa> "padding" ?
1127 2014-02-06 12:46:59 <sturles> The transactions MtGox created would be mined by bitcoind < 0.8.0, but not newer due to the slightly different signatures.
1128 2014-02-06 12:47:16 <c--O-O> they are saying the padding is wrong. and also that the input may have changed and that is why mtgox is having problems.
1129 2014-02-06 12:47:19 EngierkO has joined
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1131 2014-02-06 12:47:25 banghouse has joined
1132 2014-02-06 12:47:29 <c--O-O> sturles when was the last release of 0.8.0??
1133 2014-02-06 12:47:33 <sipa> they still haven't fixed their signatures?
1134 2014-02-06 12:47:34 <c--O-O> 10 days ago?
1135 2014-02-06 12:47:39 <sturles> c--O-O: No, MtGox are not saying this.
1136 2014-02-06 12:47:41 EngierkO has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1137 2014-02-06 12:47:44 <sipa> ... this was made non-standard almost a year ago
1138 2014-02-06 12:47:47 <sturles> Yep.
1139 2014-02-06 12:48:20 EngierkO has joined
1140 2014-02-06 12:48:21 <TD> c--O-O: where did mt gox say that?
1141 2014-02-06 12:48:26 <sturles> c--O-O: Read the thread.  Keep in mind that MtGox published all dlayed transactions, including their signatures, through the API.
1142 2014-02-06 12:48:30 <c--O-O> yea, so how would mtgox engine get busted now.
1143 2014-02-06 12:48:46 <sturles> c--O-O: READ THE THREAD.
1144 2014-02-06 12:48:50 <c--O-O> they are speculating that on ##Mtgox-chat and also hinting at it in the primechannel #mtgox
1145 2014-02-06 12:48:58 <sturles> c--O-O: READ THE THREAD.
1146 2014-02-06 12:49:04 <c--O-O> OK
1147 2014-02-06 12:49:07 <c--O-O> i will golly
1148 2014-02-06 12:49:23 <sturles> If it isn't evident what happened, you would at least be able to ask more intelligent questions..
1149 2014-02-06 12:49:38 <c--O-O> chill out sturles.
1150 2014-02-06 12:50:03 <TD> sipa: it looks a lot like their internal implementation just hasn't changed and nobody there knows how to fix it!
1151 2014-02-06 12:50:18 <c--O-O> I was just trying to talk with these people when your mtgox-fanboy butt distrubed the conversation. can you lay it off for a minute?
1152 2014-02-06 12:51:05 <sturles> sipa: They have probably fixed their signatures now, but have some work to do still.  Their wallet is left in a complete mess due to not picking up transactions where someone tweaked the signature to get their withdrawal through.
1153 2014-02-06 12:51:40 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1154 2014-02-06 12:52:12 <sipa> sturles: what do i have to see in that thread?
1155 2014-02-06 12:52:14 <sturles> Which means they have a lot of txout:vout tuples which were spent without them picking it up because the txid was changed.
1156 2014-02-06 12:52:28 <sipa> i'm the last one who has written something these, over half a year ago
1157 2014-02-06 12:52:36 <TD> ugh
1158 2014-02-06 12:52:45 <TD> yeah, what a mess
1159 2014-02-06 12:52:50 <sturles> The first post says most of it, actually..
1160 2014-02-06 12:53:48 <sipa> i'm aware of the issue
1161 2014-02-06 12:53:48 <sturles> Keep in mind that MtGox published the raw data of all their delayed transactions.  Anyone could tweak the signature into an accepted format and send the transaction with a new txid.
1162 2014-02-06 12:54:09 <sipa> but why is _now_ a problem?
1163 2014-02-06 12:54:13 HaltingState has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1164 2014-02-06 12:54:26 <sturles> Because nobody mines with 0.7.x any more.
1165 2014-02-06 12:54:27 <sipa> this should have been noticed almost a year ago
1166 2014-02-06 12:54:35 e5c has joined
1167 2014-02-06 12:54:42 <sipa> people haven't been able to mine with 0.7 since may 2013
1168 2014-02-06 12:54:51 <sturles> True.  I guess it worked well enogh and nobody exploited it.
1169 2014-02-06 12:54:51 <sipa> since the bdb fork
1170 2014-02-06 12:55:20 <sturles> Hmm.  Wasn't there a workaround for that?
1171 2014-02-06 12:55:44 <sipa> yeah, if you tweak database settings
1172 2014-02-06 12:55:56 <sturles> Yep.
1173 2014-02-06 12:56:38 <TD> perhaps there was a pool that was accepting the old transactions and they recently stopped
1174 2014-02-06 12:56:40 <TD> who knows
1175 2014-02-06 12:56:44 <TD> mark seems to have gone AWOL
1176 2014-02-06 12:56:52 wsmsg has joined
1177 2014-02-06 12:56:59 <sipa> awol?
1178 2014-02-06 12:57:12 <c--O-O> out of action, desserted.
1179 2014-02-06 12:57:30 <sturles> I mentioned it to him a couple of days ago, and the signatures were gone from the list shortly after.
1180 2014-02-06 12:57:34 <c--O-O> although doing a whois analysis of his nickname, it seems he has been active here an hour ago.
1181 2014-02-06 12:57:38 pierreatwork has joined
1182 2014-02-06 12:57:46 <sturles> He talked in #mtgox two days ago as well.
1183 2014-02-06 12:58:08 <sturles> Yes, he is on IRC, just not very talkative on noisy channels.
1184 2014-02-06 12:58:22 <sturles> He tends to get a lot of atention..
1185 2014-02-06 12:58:55 <c--O-O> ok, putting the mtgox-fanboi-butting aside, does anyone understand how come the code busted on mark? So the padding, or the bitcoin interface didn't suddenly change right?
1186 2014-02-06 12:59:16 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1187 2014-02-06 12:59:17 <c--O-O> if he has a problem it would be only internally, and nothing to do with "bitcoin-inputs"
1188 2014-02-06 12:59:22 <sturles> Yes, bitcoind got more picky about the format of the signatures it accepts.
1189 2014-02-06 12:59:52 <sturles> As explained in the thread..
1190 2014-02-06 12:59:58 <c--O-O> geez
1191 2014-02-06 13:00:17 <sturles> sipa: Isn't that correct?
1192 2014-02-06 13:00:40 <c--O-O> sturles.
1193 2014-02-06 13:00:53 <c--O-O> ya gonna lose all your money.
1194 2014-02-06 13:01:01 <sturles> Here is the commit: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/58bc86e37fda1aec270bccb3df6c20fbd2a6591c
1195 2014-02-06 13:01:06 <sturles> c--O-O: Why?
1196 2014-02-06 13:01:09 justanotheruser1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1197 2014-02-06 13:01:22 <c--O-O> For being a Mtgox FanBoi
1198 2014-02-06 13:01:27 c--O-O has left ("Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is")
1199 2014-02-06 13:01:50 <netg_> <//2
1200 2014-02-06 13:02:19 <sturles> Some people take beeing wrong very badly..
1201 2014-02-06 13:02:55 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1202 2014-02-06 13:03:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|VM: c6f266c73a3692a4eefb5e1a09f79bc4fb5d418cca2cccda300a08b3bf3f5511  boost-win32-1.55.0-gitian-r6.zip
1203 2014-02-06 13:03:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|82d89fbbe5f9246b9db3b05d8eccd19dd8564b2b1a2fb0cda5339a48d9942340  boost-win64-1.55.0-gitian-r6.zip
1204 2014-02-06 13:04:52 ircuser-6 has joined
1205 2014-02-06 13:05:06 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: looks like the droplet ones match
1206 2014-02-06 13:05:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yep
1207 2014-02-06 13:05:19 Imbue has joined
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1232 2014-02-06 13:23:27 Ninsei has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1233 2014-02-06 13:25:00 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1234 2014-02-06 13:25:05 Ninsei has joined
1235 2014-02-06 13:26:28 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1236 2014-02-06 13:30:07 CryptDrift has joined
1237 2014-02-06 13:30:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Droplet: ec9aff5ef0dbb2d8160d3c46729eeb8ad6cee601fe530f307f36539c4359dede  qt-win32-5.2.0-gitian-r2.zip
1238 2014-02-06 13:30:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|6d9ed9dd1223aa237c4fa2572358dc3caac5488f015cd577b1e905a68ea4dd53  qt-win64-5.2.0-gitian-r2.zip
1239 2014-02-06 13:30:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: looks like a mismatch
1240 2014-02-06 13:32:39 torokun has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1241 2014-02-06 13:34:27 Zarutian has joined
1242 2014-02-06 13:36:06 Imbue has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1243 2014-02-06 13:36:51 orperelman has joined
1244 2014-02-06 13:37:08 <wumpus> yes...
1245 2014-02-06 13:41:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uh, wth?
1246 2014-02-06 13:41:57 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1247 2014-02-06 13:42:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|qt build failed in the VM
1248 2014-02-06 13:42:54 fathead has joined
1249 2014-02-06 13:44:01 jgarzik is now known as home_jg
1250 2014-02-06 13:45:14 viperhr has joined
1251 2014-02-06 13:46:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|droplet: a76e40147f4cd9d66bd401cadce2cdc9d46ad6567d89bbcd0e2bb7a6c6ccf9f2  protobuf-win32-2.5.0-gitian-r4.zip
1252 2014-02-06 13:46:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|c89848c3441ae5f36b8c40a03a55d077dfc2f429c30f27ee9b8650ab049aab69  protobuf-win64-2.5.0-gitian-r4.zip
1253 2014-02-06 13:46:16 maxplm has joined
1254 2014-02-06 13:48:47 kemistry has joined
1255 2014-02-06 13:48:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, heted: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6885222/
1256 2014-02-06 13:48:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|e it looks like the qt build trouble started: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6885222/
1257 2014-02-06 13:49:01 Imbue has joined
1258 2014-02-06 13:49:03 mattco has quit ()
1259 2014-02-06 13:49:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|er
1260 2014-02-06 13:49:06 Blitzboom has joined
1261 2014-02-06 13:49:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, looks like the qt build started to fail here: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6885222/
1262 2014-02-06 13:49:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|g2g for a while
1263 2014-02-06 13:51:35 <home_jg> Gavin live @ CFR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgFUAhz7h2U&hd=1
1264 2014-02-06 13:52:57 fionnan has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1265 2014-02-06 13:54:04 c--O-O has joined
1266 2014-02-06 13:54:09 <c--O-O> hi
1267 2014-02-06 13:55:01 pooler has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0/20131108162847])
1268 2014-02-06 13:55:13 pooler has joined
1269 2014-02-06 13:55:21 <c--O-O> so you have programmed bitcoins, is there any changes to the bitcoin system in the whole, that could have caused mtgox to have severe problems? Given that the other exchanges aren't having such problems?
1270 2014-02-06 13:55:39 <c--O-O> what is your personal opinion on this matter.
1271 2014-02-06 13:55:50 <c--O-O> sturles i have read your links btw.
1272 2014-02-06 13:56:39 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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1278 2014-02-06 14:06:47 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: you ran out  of space
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1288 2014-02-06 14:12:10 <c--O-O> so anyone has insight into this? is it possible that bitcoind or the protocol is causing troubles for mtgox. 10 days ago problems. People are saying it's the input. Yet I don't know how that recently changed (recently being 10 days ago).
1289 2014-02-06 14:12:48 <c--O-O> were there any big changes that could have broken mtgoxes code?
1290 2014-02-06 14:15:40 skinnkavaj has quit ()
1291 2014-02-06 14:17:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: I didn't, though
1292 2014-02-06 14:17:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I checked
1293 2014-02-06 14:18:29 <sipa> c--O-O: #mtgox please
1294 2014-02-06 14:18:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Only around 40% full according to df
1295 2014-02-06 14:18:37 <sipa> c--O-O: nothing to do with bitcoind or the protocol
1296 2014-02-06 14:19:27 <Happzz> ideas why bitcoin-qt would say some tx is 'bad transaction', while blockchain.info says it's already been confirmed over 200 times
1297 2014-02-06 14:19:29 <Happzz> ?
1298 2014-02-06 14:19:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Happzz: what exactly did it say?
1299 2014-02-06 14:19:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And what did you do to make it say that?
1300 2014-02-06 14:20:34 <Happzz> generated an address and sent 0.1 btcs to that address while it was out of sync (sent from another client with another wallet and a synced blockchain)
1301 2014-02-06 14:20:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What is the exact message?
1302 2014-02-06 14:20:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And which action generated this message?
1303 2014-02-06 14:21:04 <c--O-O> I see ok
1304 2014-02-06 14:21:53 <Happzz> michagogo|cloud idk, it's what a friend of mine asked me. i assume he didn't "do" anything to generate that message
1305 2014-02-06 14:21:59 <Happzz> he wasn't trying to send the coins or something
1306 2014-02-06 14:22:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't know that "bad transaction" is an error message
1307 2014-02-06 14:23:17 <Happzz> aight ill try to gather more info from him when he's back
1308 2014-02-06 14:23:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Without knowing the exact message and the context, I can't help
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1313 2014-02-06 14:30:13 <Framedragger> can anyone point to the commit (or approx date) that turned IsCanonicalSignature() calls in EvalScript() to on by default (by default those checks were off)? trouble is that EvalScript() changed throughout the last year, arguments/flags became more complex, so it's difficult to do that for someone not familiar with bitcoind codebase
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1315 2014-02-06 14:31:03 <Framedragger> for example in the commit https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/58bc86e37fda1aec270bccb3df6c20fbd2a6591c which introduces those sig etc checks, EvalScript() by default does not call them (hence the commit message 'Only enabled inside tests for now.')
1316 2014-02-06 14:31:58 <Framedragger> but the flag which is used to tell EvalScript() whether to do those checks (bool fStrictEncodings) later on changes into a more complex set of flags
1317 2014-02-06 14:32:16 <Framedragger> (the key flag being, as i understand it, OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY)
1318 2014-02-06 14:32:33 <Framedragger> just wondering when those canonical signature checks might have been explicitly turned on in bitcoind.
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1369 2014-02-06 15:50:34 <Subo1977_> Block 279000 from 06.01. to block 284000 03.02.2014 = 1355 mb exported per linearize.
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1376 2014-02-06 16:03:45 <maaku> Framedragger: git blame is your friend
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1378 2014-02-06 16:04:18 <Framedragger> i tried that, problem is, code changed too much. or i'm too unfamiliar with the codebase (the latter is true iac, i suppose)
1379 2014-02-06 16:04:46 evan82_1 has joined
1380 2014-02-06 16:05:06 <Framedragger> but it seems to be https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/8dc206a1e2715be83912e039465a049b708b94c1 , and ne0f*tur agrees
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1384 2014-02-06 16:06:49 <sipa> Framedragger: that is not in any release yet
1385 2014-02-06 16:07:07 <Framedragger> o hm, for some reason i thought it was merged
1386 2014-02-06 16:07:18 <sipa> it is, and it is in 0.9.0rc1
1387 2014-02-06 16:07:33 <sipa> but i suspect you're talking about the canonical signatures thing?
1388 2014-02-06 16:07:47 <Framedragger> oh sorry, of course it's merged because it's on master, but not in any actual release, ok, got it
1389 2014-02-06 16:07:51 <Framedragger> yeah..
1390 2014-02-06 16:08:02 <Framedragger> sipa: i was simply curious
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1398 2014-02-06 16:09:25 <Framedragger> thing is, the canonical sig check code (i think it was your code?) is not enabled by default, as far as i understand. i was just trying to understand when it got enabled, i.e. when EvalScript() (if i'm not mixing things up) started calling that check code by default
1399 2014-02-06 16:10:07 <sipa> Framedragger: 0.8.0
1400 2014-02-06 16:10:22 <sipa> and only for unconfirmed transactions
1401 2014-02-06 16:10:27 <sipa> (inside blocks, it would require a fork)
1402 2014-02-06 16:11:18 <Framedragger> thank you
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1405 2014-02-06 16:11:47 <Framedragger> right, but for unconfirmed it's compatible with previous releases. ok.
1406 2014-02-06 16:12:09 <sipa> for confirmed
1407 2014-02-06 16:12:33 <sipa> for unconfirmed, only canonically encoded signatures are accepted
1408 2014-02-06 16:12:45 <sipa> inside blocks, so for confirmed transactions, anything is allowed
1409 2014-02-06 16:13:10 <Framedragger> ah! ok.
1410 2014-02-06 16:13:28 <Framedragger> yeah ok, problem is to get someone to confirm first..
1411 2014-02-06 16:13:49 <sipa> well, you shouldn't be creating transactions with non-canonical signatures, mostly
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1415 2014-02-06 16:14:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: mostly?
1416 2014-02-06 16:14:58 <sipa> i mean, if there is no way out (like the b.i ios app, where they couldn't change the code), there are other options
1417 2014-02-06 16:15:12 <Framedragger> nope, one shouldn't do that for sure. mtgox forked from an older bitcoind, and got themselves shot in the foot..
1418 2014-02-06 16:15:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm?
1419 2014-02-06 16:15:24 <sipa> Framedragger: bitcoind always created valid transactions
1420 2014-02-06 16:15:33 <Framedragger> oh.
1421 2014-02-06 16:15:36 <sipa> it's only custom software that ever created non-canonical ones
1422 2014-02-06 16:15:36 <Framedragger> ok, makes sense
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1424 2014-02-06 16:15:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There's a b.i iOS app?
1425 2014-02-06 16:16:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|AVOD why can't thru change the code?
1426 2014-02-06 16:16:10 <sipa> not anymore, since yesterday...
1427 2014-02-06 16:16:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And* they*
1428 2014-02-06 16:16:21 <sipa> because they didn't want to risk needing re-review by apple
1429 2014-02-06 16:16:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Huh?
1430 2014-02-06 16:16:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, interesting
1431 2014-02-06 16:16:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is it a wallet?
1432 2014-02-06 16:16:50 <sipa> yes
1433 2014-02-06 16:17:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I thought there weren't any iOS wallets...
1434 2014-02-06 16:17:18 <sipa> no ios bitcoin nodes
1435 2014-02-06 16:17:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(For unjailbroken phones)
1436 2014-02-06 16:17:32 <sipa> it was just a b.i client, with client-side signing
1437 2014-02-06 16:17:51 <sipa> but apple pulled it yesterday anyway
1438 2014-02-06 16:17:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: there aren't any android nodes either, are there?
1439 2014-02-06 16:17:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, they did?
1440 2014-02-06 16:17:59 <sipa> bitcoin wallet for android
1441 2014-02-06 16:18:06 <sipa> is an SPV node
1442 2014-02-06 16:18:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: that's an SPV client
1443 2014-02-06 16:18:22 <sipa> yeah, you don't want a full node on a mobile...
1444 2014-02-06 16:19:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, I wonder if any android nodes actually exist for those computers that can boot into android
1445 2014-02-06 16:19:10 benrcole has joined
1446 2014-02-06 16:19:26 <sipa> no reason why bitcoin wallet for android wouldn't work?
1447 2014-02-06 16:19:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No, I mean nodes, not SPV clients
1448 2014-02-06 16:20:00 <sipa> node != full node
1449 2014-02-06 16:20:12 <wumpus> you could compile bitcoin-qt for android if you really wanted that...
1450 2014-02-06 16:20:25 <wumpus> I wouldn't expect much interest tho
1451 2014-02-06 16:20:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Gah, the terminology is confusing
1452 2014-02-06 16:20:38 <wumpus> andreas' wallet works great
1453 2014-02-06 16:21:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I've said that exactly, only to have other people claim that you can't really call them nodes...
1454 2014-02-06 16:21:22 <wumpus> and most ARM/MIPS devices running android wouldn't really be able to run full nodes, or just barely, even if they'd have enough storage space
1455 2014-02-06 16:21:39 Goonie has joined
1456 2014-02-06 16:21:47 <wumpus> some of the higher-end ones might, maybe in the future...
1457 2014-02-06 16:21:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: I was thinking those computers that can dual-boot into Android
1458 2014-02-06 16:22:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Goonie: heh, your name just came up
1459 2014-02-06 16:22:27 <wumpus> yeah, android for x86 could just run bitcoin-qt
1460 2014-02-06 16:22:38 <wumpus> (if you were to compile it for android)
1461 2014-02-06 16:23:21 <Goonie> michagogo|cloud: Yeah, probably because I logged on?
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1469 2014-02-06 16:29:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Goonie: no, I mean, your name came up in conversation just before you joined
1470 2014-02-06 16:30:14 <Goonie> I hope you all talked only positive things about me (-:
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1474 2014-02-06 16:33:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|18:09:09 <wumpus> andreas' wallet works great
1475 2014-02-06 16:33:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Literally 60 secs before you joined
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1477 2014-02-06 16:35:08 <Goonie> michagogo|cloud, wumpus: good to hear. Did you try the beta version?
1478 2014-02-06 16:35:31 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|has no Android devices
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1486 2014-02-06 16:46:24 <wumpus> Goonie: not yet! I use the default one from the app store, but I've always used your wallet for small payments, and never had problems
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1495 2014-02-06 16:56:27 <jouke> Goonie: going to install the beta right away, I heard it has payment protocol implementation!
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1503 2014-02-06 16:59:33 <Goonie> jouke: yes it has (BIP70)
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1520 2014-02-06 17:15:54 <jouke> Welp I managed to crash it :P
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1523 2014-02-06 17:18:34 <jouke> Goonie: should I be able to load a URI?
1524 2014-02-06 17:18:45 topace has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1525 2014-02-06 17:19:05 <Goonie> You mean via BIP72? That's currently unsupported.
1526 2014-02-06 17:20:20 <jouke> So paymentrequest should in its totality be in the qr-code atm?
1527 2014-02-06 17:21:25 topace has joined
1528 2014-02-06 17:22:31 <Goonie> jouke: That's one option. You can also put it on an NFC tag. Or send it as an email-attachment.
1529 2014-02-06 17:23:06 <Goonie> jouke: Or you can link to a paymentrequest "file" in the browser. It just needs to be served using the correct content type.
1530 2014-02-06 17:23:16 <Goonie> (BIP71 is supported)
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1533 2014-02-06 17:23:44 <jgarzik> Goonie, BIP 72 isn't working for you, in Bitcoin-Qt?
1534 2014-02-06 17:25:26 <Goonie> jgarzik: We're talking about Bitcoin Wallet
1535 2014-02-06 17:26:02 <Goonie> jouke: I have two links on http://wallet.schildbach.de/ that you can use to get the payment request
1536 2014-02-06 17:26:08 <jgarzik> Goonie, BIP 73 will be big on mobile
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1538 2014-02-06 17:28:05 <Goonie> jouke: Or you can create your own with gavins generator (the URLs link to it)
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1542 2014-02-06 17:29:48 <Goonie> Need to go, to our Berlin Bitcoin meetup...
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1547 2014-02-06 17:34:31 <TD> jouke: yeah he is working on the URI extensions part
1548 2014-02-06 17:34:37 <TD> there's code written it's just not finished/merged into the beta yet
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1577 2014-02-06 18:02:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6886395/
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1579 2014-02-06 18:03:58 <wumpus> seems the -cli and -d match, but not -qt
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1593 2014-02-06 18:15:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|yeah
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1623 2014-02-06 18:41:29 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: lol I've just rebuilt... and I get your results, not my previous ones
1624 2014-02-06 18:41:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: kvm or lxc?
1625 2014-02-06 18:41:57 <wumpus> maybe I did something wrong last time
1626 2014-02-06 18:41:58 <wumpus> kvm
1627 2014-02-06 18:41:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's from the droplet
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1647 2014-02-06 19:02:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Okay, Ubuntu 12.04.4 was just released. I'm going to try installing a precise VM to see if that matches the raring VM, or everything else
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1671 2014-02-06 19:19:57 <richcollins> Do miners actually interpret the full scripting language (other than ops marked disabled here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script)?
1672 2014-02-06 19:20:07 <sipa> every single node does
1673 2014-02-06 19:20:11 <sipa> *full node
1674 2014-02-06 19:20:16 <sipa> so certainly miners
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1677 2014-02-06 19:21:07 <gmaxwell> I wonder if we should remove the 'disabled' ops from that page. They are functually equal to any other non-existing op now, so they're only of historical interest.
1678 2014-02-06 19:21:09 <richcollins> Awesome.  Do you know of an index of interesting scripts that have actually been used in the blockchain?
1679 2014-02-06 19:21:54 <richcollins> I'm interested in trying to implement http://nashx.com via Script
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1681 2014-02-06 19:24:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, ACK
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1685 2014-02-06 19:24:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'd say, don't remove them
1686 2014-02-06 19:25:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But put them all together in their own section, and explain them better
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1689 2014-02-06 19:26:44 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: why have them in that list and not OP_SHA3 ?
1690 2014-02-06 19:26:48 <andytoshi> i'd like to see them removed. there are enough kinds of things in the world without us making up new kinds of nothing.
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1693 2014-02-06 19:28:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also: Is the logic for OP_RETURN any different than the logic for the reserved or non-existing opsoced?
1694 2014-02-06 19:28:44 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: hah. that was my thinking; I've had to explain to people that they don't really exist and can't just be turned on many times now. goes along with the same thinking that perhaps somehow miners might actually not actually interpret the full scripting language.
1695 2014-02-06 19:28:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: What's OP_SHA3?
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1698 2014-02-06 19:29:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And to answer the question, for historical reference
1699 2014-02-06 19:30:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But if they are kept (which they could not be, I don't really care too much), they should be taken out of the list and added to their own section
1700 2014-02-06 19:31:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Clearly explaining that earlier versions had these and they were removed (rather than describing them as disabled)
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1705 2014-02-06 19:34:28 <Luke-Jr> IMO we should remove them from the code too
1706 2014-02-06 19:35:03 <Luke-Jr> (the enum lists still have them)
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1733 2014-02-06 19:49:01 <maaku> michagogo|cloud Luke-Jr: because of how they are disabled they are in a special category however
1734 2014-02-06 19:49:27 <Luke-Jr> maaku: hm? they are "disabled" in the same exact way as any opcode that doesn't exist..
1735 2014-02-06 19:49:40 <maaku> any script containing them is rejected outright, even if it is in an unexecuted branch
1736 2014-02-06 19:49:46 <Luke-Jr> oh?
1737 2014-02-06 19:49:59 <maaku> whereas OP_INVALID et al don't behave like that
1738 2014-02-06 19:50:38 <Luke-Jr> hmm, looks like you're right
1739 2014-02-06 19:50:45 <Luke-Jr> yet another strange corner-case
1740 2014-02-06 19:50:46 <Luke-Jr> sigh
1741 2014-02-06 19:50:47 <sipa> orly?
1742 2014-02-06 19:51:02 <maaku> yeah it's ugly
1743 2014-02-06 19:51:15 <gmaxwell> hm I didn't know that either.
1744 2014-02-06 19:51:28 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if any alt implementations got this right XD
1745 2014-02-06 19:51:44 <Luke-Jr> we really should make a list of these, even if it's not public..
1746 2014-02-06 19:51:44 <gmaxwell> hard to test.
1747 2014-02-06 19:52:02 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: not that hard. just OP_0 OP_IF OP_CAT OP_ENDIF
1748 2014-02-06 19:52:06 <Luke-Jr> oh wait
1749 2014-02-06 19:52:08 <gmaxwell> right
1750 2014-02-06 19:52:21 <Luke-Jr> yeah, probably need a regtest mode I guess
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1752 2014-02-06 19:54:23 <maaku> well it's definately something which should be fixed in the in-case-we-ever-hard-fork branch
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1755 2014-02-06 19:55:00 <sipa> in-case-we-ever-hard-fork we should fix the script language as a whole...
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1757 2014-02-06 19:55:26 <cjd> If I can bother you with an off-topic question, does anyone know if group ECDH is used anywhere? AKA: S*P*P*P*P*P == P*P*S*P*P*P
1758 2014-02-06 19:55:42 <cjd> It seems like it should be safe but I want to know if anyone has written about it or implemented it
1759 2014-02-06 19:55:55 <sipa> cjd: you cannot multiply public keys with eachother
1760 2014-02-06 19:55:56 <maaku> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1869
1761 2014-02-06 19:56:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|21:38:11 <maaku> any script containing them is rejected outright, even if it is in an unexecuted branch
1762 2014-02-06 19:56:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|maaku: Is the wiki wrong?
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1764 2014-02-06 19:56:27 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: likely
1765 2014-02-06 19:56:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It says it's just 0x65 and 0x66 that do that
1766 2014-02-06 19:56:46 <cjd> sipa: aren't they just basically random numbers in this context? it seems like this should work just fine, like an elliptic cryptographic accumulator...
1767 2014-02-06 19:56:55 <sipa> cjd: public keys are points
1768 2014-02-06 19:57:01 <sipa> cjd: private keys are numbers
1769 2014-02-06 19:57:44 <sipa> point+point=point number*number=number number*point=point
1770 2014-02-06 19:57:49 <sipa> but point*point doesn't exist
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1772 2014-02-06 19:58:13 <cjd> hmm
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1776 2014-02-06 19:58:44 <cjd> curve25519 will definitely *let* you do this since all of the pubkeys and privkeys are just 32 byte arrays...
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1778 2014-02-06 19:58:59 <sipa> cjd: it won't have any meaning
1779 2014-02-06 19:59:06 <gmaxwell> cjd: the result of doing that isn't N party ECDH.
1780 2014-02-06 19:59:10 <sipa> and it won't have the property you need for ECDH
1781 2014-02-06 19:59:16 <gmaxwell> It's some broken thing where everyone knows all the private keys.
1782 2014-02-06 19:59:30 <cjd> ok, that's too bad
1783 2014-02-06 19:59:49 <cjd> damn those things that seem too good to be true :)
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1786 2014-02-06 20:00:31 <gmaxwell> cjd: general N-party DH without needing moon-mathy multilinear crypto is unsolved and looks to be unsolvable.
1787 2014-02-06 20:01:10 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: the wiki could be more clear about what disabled means
1788 2014-02-06 20:01:12 <cjd> that's too bad, a scalable cryptocat would have been pretty nice
1789 2014-02-06 20:01:15 <maaku> the offending line is here : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L354
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1792 2014-02-06 20:02:26 <gmaxwell> cjd: of course, you can just do N^2 ecdh and hash the resulting secrets to get a group secret.
1793 2014-02-06 20:03:30 <cjd> that could work
1794 2014-02-06 20:03:48 <cjd> it's a bit expensive to join but it doesn't need a key-storm every time someone quits
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1797 2014-02-06 20:05:13 <andytoshi> maaku: did you know about this 'return false' before this conversation?
1798 2014-02-06 20:05:37 <andytoshi> i guess it's pretty overt, but bizarre to see yet another bitcoin behavior nobody knew about
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1803 2014-02-06 20:06:50 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: i just checked, 0x65 and 0x66 get approximately the same behavior as if they were disabled, because of the fall-through in the switch statement that follows
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1805 2014-02-06 20:07:41 <maaku> andytoshi: yes, see my pull request from a year ago I linked above
1806 2014-02-06 20:08:18 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: I was aware that some op_codes were killed the transaction even if they were in an untaken branch, but I'd forgotten the disabled ones didn't have the fExec check.
1807 2014-02-06 20:09:07 <maaku> gmaxwell:while you are on the topic, is there any non-interactive way to generate a shared secret for 1-of-N public keys?
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1810 2014-02-06 20:11:34 <gmaxwell> maaku: this was the reusable address question? you can encrypt N times, of course. But more efficiently? That would be "broadcast encryption", and there are moonmathy approaches to it but I don't know what their performance is like.
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1812 2014-02-06 20:12:59 <maaku> ok. it's just an efficiency optimization I was looking for - encrypting coinjoin messages so just the participants can read it, without having to do N encryptions
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1815 2014-02-06 20:14:47 <sipa> if you have 3 parties or more, you're probably better off encrypting with a master key, which itself is encrypted once with each DH key
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1828 2014-02-06 20:21:44 <andytoshi> sipa: good call. participants already need to agree on a session id of some sort anyway
1829 2014-02-06 20:22:53 <andytoshi> so there has to be an introduction phase of some sort where the secret key could be shared
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1835 2014-02-06 20:25:19 <cjd> I still want to imagine multi-party DH that works :)
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1837 2014-02-06 20:25:42 <cjd> it "feels" like it should work since in terms of classical multiplication, it would work quite well
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1839 2014-02-06 20:31:39 <andytoshi> cjd: you should look up pairing-based crypto, then contemplate the extension from diffie-hellman to bilinear diffie-hellman, then contemplate the extension to higher dimensions
1840 2014-02-06 20:31:51 <andytoshi> that should give you a better intuition so that your feelings better match reality
1841 2014-02-06 20:32:05 <cjd> thanks
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1848 2014-02-06 20:36:21 <andytoshi> cjd: the first couple pages of https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/pubs/abstracts/bfibe.html are what i'm talking about
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1851 2014-02-06 20:37:22 <cjd> thanks, I'll see how much I understand xD
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1859 2014-02-06 20:42:55 <N4Y_webchat> hey there, where can i find windows rc builds?
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1894 2014-02-06 21:22:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|N4Y_webchat: I can give you a build, I don't think there are any published
1895 2014-02-06 21:23:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I *think* I have one,
1896 2014-02-06 21:23:24 <N4Y_webchat> michagogo|cloud: that'd be nice
1897 2014-02-06 21:23:56 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|looks
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1900 2014-02-06 21:27:14 <BlueMatt> anyone looked at blockchain's sharedcoin?
1901 2014-02-06 21:27:17 <BlueMatt> is it any good?
1902 2014-02-06 21:28:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|N4Y_webchat: http://michagogo.cadoth.net
1903 2014-02-06 21:28:45 <N4Y_webchat> michagogo|cloud: thanks
1904 2014-02-06 21:28:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sure
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1906 2014-02-06 21:29:37 <N4Y_webchat> michagogo|cloud: setup.exe installs the others? or do i need them aswell for the installer?
1907 2014-02-06 21:29:50 <N4Y_webchat> *contains them
1908 2014-02-06 21:29:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The former
1909 2014-02-06 21:30:04 <N4Y_webchat> kk
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1926 2014-02-06 21:42:47 <cryptofish82> Any example's anywhere for signing a transaction with multiple inputs and multiple outputs? I've got it working with 1 input/2 output, but when I add more it gets rejected
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1946 2014-02-06 22:02:24 <tlrobinson> has anyone ever considered a mining algorithm that essentially requires local/fast access to a full node, e.x. instead of SHA256(SHA256(block header + nonce)) something like SHA256(SHA256(block header + nonce + lookupTransaction(nonce)) http://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/1x5yg5/incentives_to_host_a_full_node/cf8pm5m?context=4
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1948 2014-02-06 22:03:16 <sipa> yes, gmaxwell came up with that a long time ago, iirc :)
1949 2014-02-06 22:03:23 <sipa> or was it amiller?
1950 2014-02-06 22:04:00 <cjd> I think amiller and gmaxwell liked the idea IIRC
1951 2014-02-06 22:04:01 <amiller> yeah i came up with that :o
1952 2014-02-06 22:04:23 <jaakkos> did you find a way to verify such work quickly
1953 2014-02-06 22:04:44 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1954 2014-02-06 22:04:45 <amiller> relatively quickly, using merkle trees, but it definitely adds some communication bloat
1955 2014-02-06 22:05:11 <amiller> it's unclear how much would be tolerable per block.
1956 2014-02-06 22:06:03 <cjd> I figured out an interesting memory hard PoW which is easy to solve because it's a processor hard problem with a memory hard shortcut
1957 2014-02-06 22:06:08 <cjd> err
1958 2014-02-06 22:06:11 <cjd> easy to verify
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1963 2014-02-06 22:07:18 <camponez> hello, I'm having trouble to understand some tests I'm making on the testnet...
1964 2014-02-06 22:07:33 <camponez> http://testnet.btclook.com/txn/ecd3b9485b97d50ac06d1f500f9caa3edf50d95efe228469572a306002ab469d
1965 2014-02-06 22:07:45 <camponez> I believe that this 4.3 is a transaction I tryied
1966 2014-02-06 22:07:49 <camponez> why it shows ???
1967 2014-02-06 22:07:59 <camponez> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/search/2MyMdJW7GpkULivugRMNqrVuaoqFenc7ioS
1968 2014-02-06 22:08:02 <camponez> This address is a multisig of 3 other addresses
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2012 2014-02-06 22:35:12 <cjd> So regarding the question I asked earlier, it turns out that there is a stackexchange answer if you know what to search for:
2013 2014-02-06 22:35:12 agricocb has joined
2014 2014-02-06 22:35:13 <cjd> http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/1025/can-one-generalize-the-diffie-hellman-key-exchange-to-three-or-more-parties
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2017 2014-02-06 22:36:46 <sipa> right, it still requires n^2 messages, like gmaxwell's protocol
2018 2014-02-06 22:36:51 <sipa> but no hashing afterwards
2019 2014-02-06 22:36:58 <cjd> hm
2020 2014-02-06 22:37:04 <sipa> this one requires N steps, though
2021 2014-02-06 22:37:36 <cjd> maybe I'm confused again but I'm imagining everyone writes their pubkey on the whiteboard, you take the pubkey of your nearest neighbor and compute a shared secret
2022 2014-02-06 22:37:57 <cjd> then you hash it and point multiply that to get a shared keypair between you and your neighbor
2023 2014-02-06 22:38:02 <sipa> that works for 3, but not for more
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2025 2014-02-06 22:38:32 <sipa> you need basically to start with every public key
2026 2014-02-06 22:38:34 <cjd> ahh right, you have to publish the shared pubkey
2027 2014-02-06 22:38:41 <sipa> and multiply it by all other private keys
2028 2014-02-06 22:39:01 <sipa> so you need N iterations, where the accumulated public key + private keys are rotated through the peers
2029 2014-02-06 22:39:19 <cjd> so you compute the pubkey of you+neighbor and you publish that, then the other pair can compute their shared pubkey and publish it, then you can compute a pubkey for 4 people
2030 2014-02-06 22:41:30 <cjd> What's important to me is if someone joins while a bunch of other nodes are lagging out, he can still recompute the chan key
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2041 2014-02-06 22:54:07 * maaku really needs to write that essay on why memory-hard is not a good thing...
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2046 2014-02-06 22:56:51 <cjd> if you put it in a few sentences, I'll read it
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2048 2014-02-06 22:58:00 <therp> maaku: what do you have in mind?
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2051 2014-02-06 22:59:15 <sipa> "come, botnets, come"
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2054 2014-02-06 23:00:30 <maaku> therp: basically the original scrypt paper is flat out wrong in its assumptions, and scrypt-like PoW functions are *more* amenable to ASIC efficiency gains
2055 2014-02-06 23:00:43 <maaku> but even if you do get it to work, what sipa said
2056 2014-02-06 23:00:50 <cjd> interesting
2057 2014-02-06 23:01:04 <sipa> maaku: really?
2058 2014-02-06 23:01:29 <cjd> is there a limitation for this? like if it requires 1M or 10M or 100M or 1G of memory? does the rule still stand?
2059 2014-02-06 23:01:56 <maaku> sipa: scrypt ASICs have a higher performance gain relative to GPU/CPU than SHA-256 did, because of power & heat dissipation concerns
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2061 2014-02-06 23:02:11 <maaku> and ongoing costs (power) dominate capital costs (die size) for any real attack scenario
2062 2014-02-06 23:02:23 <denisx> is midstate now finally deprecated in 0.9?
2063 2014-02-06 23:02:45 <sipa> maaku: right, i've seen gmaxwell make that argument
2064 2014-02-06 23:03:16 <maaku> - yeah i was about to say credit goes to gmaxwell for this
2065 2014-02-06 23:04:05 <cjd> what exactly is the real attack scenario?
2066 2014-02-06 23:04:32 <cjd> double spending?
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2068 2014-02-06 23:05:52 <sipa> cjd: that's not directly the concern here- it's about which type of PoW results in the lowest speedup for custom hardware
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2070 2014-02-06 23:06:10 <sipa> because some feel that this results in a safer competition for mining
2071 2014-02-06 23:06:17 <cjd> ok
2072 2014-02-06 23:06:33 <cjd> so it is sort of bounded
2073 2014-02-06 23:06:47 <cjd> 100k is not really a great bound but 16G is
2074 2014-02-06 23:07:34 <sipa> maaku and gmaxwell can probably explain it better
2075 2014-02-06 23:07:43 <sipa> but as far as i understand it, that doesn't really matter
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2078 2014-02-06 23:10:47 <cjd> My feeling is that what you're after is something that already exists in idle commodity hardware because that way, it's never really a good idea to get into mining on a commercial scale because you're competing against people who have CPU/RAM to burn and for them, everything is free
2079 2014-02-06 23:10:48 <kinlo> as I see it, the more intensive the pow function, the more work for other bitcoin users (non-mining users) would become to validate the blockchain, opening a wide range of attacks there, but wouldn't increase the blockchain security, you just need to have more power
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2081 2014-02-06 23:11:16 <cjd> validation is another matter indeed
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2083 2014-02-06 23:11:56 <kinlo> the sha256 has cheap validation, and the difficulty is adjusted by the difficulty parameter.  scrypt has expensive validation, and the same difficulty: it's equally adjusteable to whatever you want
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2090 2014-02-06 23:15:38 <cjd> scrypt is really not the best proof of work
2091 2014-02-06 23:15:46 <cjd> it's not really the best at much of anything
2092 2014-02-06 23:16:03 <cjd> but it is 4 (5?) years old so it's pretty well understood
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2126 2014-02-06 23:41:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anyone feel like merging #3635?
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2131 2014-02-06 23:43:35 <phantomcircuit> michagogo|cloud, we're not using libpng for anything external are we?
2132 2014-02-06 23:43:45 <phantomcircuit> (it's full of crazy security issues)
2133 2014-02-06 23:44:23 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shrugs
2134 2014-02-06 23:44:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I assume it's for the GUI
2135 2014-02-06 23:46:00 <phantomcircuit> ah right
2136 2014-02-06 23:46:03 <phantomcircuit> that makes sense
2137 2014-02-06 23:46:36 <phantomcircuit> michagogo|cloud, im guessing they moved the url for the same reason we moved old versions to an archive directory
2138 2014-02-06 23:46:41 <phantomcircuit> security issues
2139 2014-02-06 23:46:45 <cjd> there is the thing where you can send someone your avitar through the btc protocol but that only supports TIFF
2140 2014-02-06 23:47:02 <phantomcircuit> cjd, what thing?
2141 2014-02-06 23:47:12 <phantomcircuit> (something ridiculously inefficient im guessing)
2142 2014-02-06 23:47:23 <cjd> nothing, I'm just making a bad joke
2143 2014-02-06 23:47:59 <cjd> make other people's bitcoin engine display an arbitrary TIFF image, What Could Go Wrong®
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2145 2014-02-06 23:48:03 <phantomcircuit> cjd, i wonder if there's anything like that in the payment protocol
2146 2014-02-06 23:48:10 <cjd> hah
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2152 2014-02-06 23:49:53 <phantomcircuit> cjd, so something interesting (vaguely) the logic for // Enforce block.nVersion=2 rule that the coinbase starts with serialized block height
2153 2014-02-06 23:50:01 <phantomcircuit> apparently takes a substantial amount of time
2154 2014-02-06 23:50:13 <phantomcircuit> because // if 750 of the last 1,000 blocks are version 2 or greater (51/100 if testnet):
2155 2014-02-06 23:50:20 <phantomcircuit> which actually loads the past 1000 blocks
2156 2014-02-06 23:50:36 <cjd> heh
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2158 2014-02-06 23:50:55 <sipa> "loads" ?
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2161 2014-02-06 23:51:06 <phantomcircuit> sipa, well iterates over
2162 2014-02-06 23:51:11 <sipa> sure
2163 2014-02-06 23:51:22 <cjd> which IIRC is a disk seek
2164 2014-02-06 23:51:28 <sipa> lol, hell no
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2168 2014-02-06 23:52:05 <phantomcircuit> cjd, he's right it's using CBlockIndex which is just the headers in memory
2169 2014-02-06 23:52:15 <cjd> ahh
2170 2014-02-06 23:52:49 <sipa> it could be sped up 25%
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2172 2014-02-06 23:52:58 <sipa> by bailing out when the 750 treshold is reached
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2174 2014-02-06 23:53:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i *think* it's actually a substantial amount of runtime before the checkpoints though
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2176 2014-02-06 23:53:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Could you pull 3635?
2177 2014-02-06 23:53:41 <phantomcircuit> sipa, could also add a field CBlockIndex::previous_same_version
2178 2014-02-06 23:53:49 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: doing os
2179 2014-02-06 23:53:53 <phantomcircuit> then increment that for each block added to the end with the same version
2180 2014-02-06 23:53:59 <phantomcircuit> O(n) -> O(1)
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2183 2014-02-06 23:54:28 <sipa> phantomcircuit: but but... that's like 1 MB extra RAM!
2184 2014-02-06 23:54:31 <phantomcircuit> well technically it's O(1) because n is fixed
2185 2014-02-06 23:54:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: ?
2186 2014-02-06 23:54:51 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: i'm merging it
2187 2014-02-06 23:54:52 <phantomcircuit> michagogo|cloud, s/os/so/
2188 2014-02-06 23:54:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ah
2189 2014-02-06 23:54:59 <phantomcircuit> actually
2190 2014-02-06 23:55:10 <sipa> but i have this script that runs a make check before doing a merge
2191 2014-02-06 23:55:14 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah i think that would work fairly well
2192 2014-02-06 23:55:18 <sipa> even though not really required for this :)
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2194 2014-02-06 23:55:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|make check?
2195 2014-02-06 23:56:02 <sipa> phantomcircuit: it can easily be a single variable that counts how many nVersion==2 in the window [tip-1000,tip] are seen
2196 2014-02-06 23:56:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google make check
2197 2014-02-06 23:56:08 <gribble> what does "make check" do? - Stack Overflow: <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1735473/what-does-make-check-do>; unit testing - How do you create tests for "make check" with GNU ...: <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/130801/how-do-you-create-tests-for-make-check-with-gnu-autotools>; automake: Tests: <http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/manual/html_node/Tests.html>
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2199 2014-02-06 23:56:17 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: build + run tests
2200 2014-02-06 23:56:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah
2201 2014-02-06 23:57:03 <sipa> phantomcircuit: which at every block connect/disconnect adds the tip and removes the tip-1000 from the window
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2205 2014-02-06 23:57:37 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i was thinking about when there is a version 2
2206 2014-02-06 23:57:44 <phantomcircuit> er
2207 2014-02-06 23:57:45 <phantomcircuit> 3
2208 2014-02-06 23:57:50 <phantomcircuit> brb coffee...
2209 2014-02-06 23:58:02 <sipa> the version can go down
2210 2014-02-06 23:58:28 <phantomcircuit> sipa, wat?
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2214 2014-02-06 23:59:20 <BlueMatt> software can do anything (tm)
2215 2014-02-06 23:59:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: You mean before you hit the supermajority threshold?
2216 2014-02-06 23:59:39 <sipa> well if the last 1000 blocks have less than 750 nVersion==2's, the v2 rules disappear again
2217 2014-02-06 23:59:50 <sipa> i think
2218 2014-02-06 23:59:56 <BlueMatt> sipa: yes, but that cant (really) happen