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 215 2014-02-08 04:35:14 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: hey, shouldn't we get deterministic Mac builds merged for 0.9? :/
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 217 2014-02-08 04:35:44 <jrmithdobbs> please
 218 2014-02-08 04:36:02 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: cfields finished that like a month ago
 219 2014-02-08 04:36:59 <cfields> i think there are only a few one-liners needed in core, i can PR them if desired for .9
 220 2014-02-08 04:37:16 <cfields> the rest is gitian stuff that's out-of-tree
 221 2014-02-08 04:38:43 <Luke-Jr> cfields: IMO it's definitely desired for 0.9.
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 223 2014-02-08 04:39:02 <Luke-Jr> cfields: copumpkin was just asking about it in #bitcoin-otc btw, he's the guy who put 25 BTC toward it.
 224 2014-02-08 04:39:19 <cfields> ok, heading over
 225 2014-02-08 04:39:32 <copumpkin> \o/
 226 2014-02-08 04:40:04 <cfields> copumpkin: ah, you're here too. probably better.
 227 2014-02-08 04:40:12 <copumpkin> now I just need you to register a non-profit for mac builds so I can deduct however many thousands from my taxes
 228 2014-02-08 04:40:14 <copumpkin> >_>
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 230 2014-02-08 04:40:24 <cfields> yea, it's all done in my repo.
 231 2014-02-08 04:40:26 <cfields> heh
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 233 2014-02-08 04:40:48 <cfields> not sure if it's reasonable to take on the deps build process for the official .9 binaries
 234 2014-02-08 04:40:54 <cfields> but it all works
 235 2014-02-08 04:41:27 <Luke-Jr> copumpkin: technically, you could just 1099 him as a business expense :P
 236 2014-02-08 04:41:33 <cfields> copumpkin: https://github.com/theuni/osx-cross-depends
 237 2014-02-08 04:42:09 <cfields> pretty sure the w9 deadline has passed :p
 238 2014-02-08 04:42:13 <copumpkin> I'd probably need some sort of s-corp to claim business expenses, but probably not worth the effort yet :P
 239 2014-02-08 04:42:19 <copumpkin> when we hit 100k/coin I'll go for it ;)
 240 2014-02-08 04:42:34 <copumpkin> cfields: cool
 241 2014-02-08 04:43:22 <cfields> hmm, actually, i might've snuck the bitcoin changes in already
 242 2014-02-08 04:44:44 <cfields> ah right, it's the dmg creation that needs a few patches
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 244 2014-02-08 04:45:12 <cfields> that's the part i didn't bother with until some discussion about how to actually do the release
 245 2014-02-08 04:46:16 <cfields> ah nope, did those too: https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/commits/deterministic-dmg
 246 2014-02-08 04:47:08 <cfields> having a shitty memory and discovering that you've already done something is kinda like finding $20 in your pocket when you put on your pants :)
 247 2014-02-08 04:47:18 <Luke-Jr> :D
 248 2014-02-08 04:47:58 <cfields> so Luke-Jr: the top ~4 commits in that branch are needed for core. want me to PR em?
 249 2014-02-08 04:49:24 <Luke-Jr> sure
 250 2014-02-08 04:49:49 <cfields> ok
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 382 2014-02-08 07:41:04 <Cryo> Luke-Jr, did 64bit mac build get worked out for 0.9?
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 386 2014-02-08 07:41:57 <Cryo> yay for checking timestamps before asking questions
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 476 2014-02-08 10:05:03 <Alina-malina> hello all are there anre bitcoin psd ready files and stuff i am trying to make my website, and it would be nice to have some ready bitcoin logotypes, backgrounds, patterns etc
 477 2014-02-08 10:05:10 <Alina-malina> *any
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 486 2014-02-08 10:17:47 <volante> is vanitygen as good as it gets for generating secure offline addresses?
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 551 2014-02-08 11:49:21 <money> hi is anyone familiar with a certain fix in a 0.08 version release?
 552 2014-02-08 11:49:58 <money> about padding. and some interface changes? Does that make a new version of bitcoins or something.
 553 2014-02-08 11:50:29 <money> how can the system interact if 10 users are using old version and 10 users are using new version of that.
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 586 2014-02-08 12:14:36 <abrkn> what?
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 598 2014-02-08 12:31:57 <mswiggs> burrito: thanks mustn't have done it right.
 599 2014-02-08 12:32:07 <Burrito> ah, n p
 600 2014-02-08 12:32:09 <Burrito> np*
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 603 2014-02-08 12:34:46 <mswiggs> What techniques are used to embed information in transactions? The one that comes to mind is making 'small transactions' where the amounts contain the necessary information, not sure if there are other techiques..
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 606 2014-02-08 12:37:06 <Burrito> What do you mean, like, information that usually is not meant to be embedded in transactions?
 607 2014-02-08 12:37:50 <mswiggs> Yes,
 608 2014-02-08 12:37:56 <Burrito> It's possible to substitute the hash160 (the thing the address is derived from) for arbitrary information (like what Proof of Existence uses)
 609 2014-02-08 12:38:18 <Burrito> But the funds sent in that transaction are then not recoverable, feasibly.
 610 2014-02-08 12:38:35 <mswiggs> Ok, so that output is gone.
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 612 2014-02-08 12:39:05 <Burrito> http://www.proofofexistence.com/about
 613 2014-02-08 12:40:27 <mswiggs> Interesting, thanks
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 615 2014-02-08 12:42:08 <Burrito> That service substitutes the hash160's for fragments of SHA256 hashes. But it's technically possible to put anything in there.
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 617 2014-02-08 12:42:19 <Burrito> (anything, instead of hashes)
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 621 2014-02-08 12:47:27 <sipa> mswiggs: also, please just don't do that
 622 2014-02-08 12:48:00 smash has joined
 623 2014-02-08 12:48:26 <mswiggs> sipa: I think I will use a different technique, anyway.
 624 2014-02-08 12:49:15 <mswiggs> just confirming every transaction hash is suppose to be unique?
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 627 2014-02-08 12:51:00 <sipa> yes
 628 2014-02-08 12:51:27 <sipa> mswiggs: but please don't put any unnecessary data in transactions at all
 629 2014-02-08 12:51:57 <sipa> it increases the cost of running the bitcoin system for everyone
 630 2014-02-08 12:52:07 <Burrito> I think the least harm would be done if it was done in a blockchain of its own.
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 632 2014-02-08 12:53:07 <Burrito> But it would be difficult to keep it protected from attacks, in comparison to the Bitcoin network, which is already secured by many miners
 633 2014-02-08 12:53:11 <Burrito> lots of hashing power
 634 2014-02-08 12:53:13 <sipa> indeed, like namecoin or datacoin
 635 2014-02-08 12:53:23 <Burrito> namecoin's a good choise
 636 2014-02-08 12:53:26 <Burrito> choice*
 637 2014-02-08 12:53:28 <Burrito> already fit for purpose
 638 2014-02-08 12:54:01 <Burrito> didn't know datacoin existed
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 646 2014-02-08 13:01:06 <petertodd> Burrito: that just dumps the problem on someone else
 647 2014-02-08 13:01:30 <petertodd> Burrito: better to ask if proof-of-publication is actually needed by what you are doing
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 649 2014-02-08 13:02:23 <mswiggs> How do people feel about publicly sharing eckey public keys?
 650 2014-02-08 13:02:35 <petertodd> mswiggs: for what purpose?
 651 2014-02-08 13:02:53 <mswiggs> generating redeem scripts
 652 2014-02-08 13:03:32 <petertodd> mswiggs: it's slightly less secure than sharing hashes instead, but it's not much of a difference
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 654 2014-02-08 13:03:46 <petertodd> mswiggs: I mean, if ECC is broken, say by quantum computing
 655 2014-02-08 13:04:26 <mswiggs> petertodd: ok
 656 2014-02-08 13:04:45 <Burrito> petertodd, It dumps the problem onto people who know that they are not mining or hosting the blockchain purely for the purposes of maintaining a currency and payment system.
 657 2014-02-08 13:05:27 <xaptah> isn't datacoin meant to be used as a storage ?
 658 2014-02-08 13:06:06 <Burrito> Yes, that's what I mean. People mining datacoin are not having problems dumped on them outside of the scope of what datacoin is meant to be used for anyway.
 659 2014-02-08 13:06:17 <petertodd> Burrito: true, with datacoin specifically
 660 2014-02-08 13:06:47 <petertodd> Burrito: I'm less convinced with namecoin; it was meant to be a dns system. But regardless for all these things stopping data storage on chains isn't possible.
 661 2014-02-08 13:06:54 <sipa> indeed, first of all you should question whether you actually need to dump storage on pretty much everyone ever running a bitcoin/whatevercoin at all
 662 2014-02-08 13:07:15 <petertodd> which gets back to the question of what exactly are you trying to do?
 663 2014-02-08 13:07:22 <sipa> petertodd: namecoin is designed to be a generic key-value store, afaik
 664 2014-02-08 13:07:42 <petertodd> sipa: and without some means of expiration it's not a very good one...
 665 2014-02-08 13:07:45 <Burrito> petertodd, I guessed that since he was trying to use transaction amounts first, that he was trying to use it as a covert channel.
 666 2014-02-08 13:08:06 <sipa> petertodd: never claimed that i think it's a good idea :)
 667 2014-02-08 13:08:49 <petertodd> Burrito: heh, much better ways to do it than tx amounts :)
 668 2014-02-08 13:09:59 <petertodd> stealth addresses are a case in point: ideally we'd have a way to have a transaction be accompanied by time-limited-data, so the ephemeral pubkey could be guaranteed to be kept available for, say, 1 year, and then discarded
 669 2014-02-08 13:10:32 <petertodd> they don't need proof-of-publication for that, but they do need that data to be atomicly transferred ith the transaction to have the required reliability guarantee
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 671 2014-02-08 13:11:35 <petertodd> in practice, with pruning and schemes like mmr txo commitments, maybe op-return data effectively already works that way...
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 787 2014-02-08 15:54:17 <Xeno-Genesis> I’m implementing BIP-0039 in Haskoin. Is the recommendation being followed as stated in the reference code from Trezor?
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 823 2014-02-08 16:33:58 <Diablo-D3> man whats with the bitcointalk mods lately?
 824 2014-02-08 16:34:14 <Diablo-D3> apparently they've been actively removing threads that talk about the coingator scam
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 833 2014-02-08 16:40:09 <Emcy> who even mods that forum
 834 2014-02-08 16:40:25 <Emcy> or more succinctly, BCT has mods?
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 841 2014-02-08 16:47:27 <ajoul> Hello, how do bitcoin mining pools work?
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 848 2014-02-08 16:50:31 <jrmithdobbs> they don't, next
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 854 2014-02-08 16:57:19 <Emcy> "how do bitcoin mining pools work"
 855 2014-02-08 16:57:26 <Emcy> like a plantation owner
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 868 2014-02-08 17:17:59 <xabbix> Are there any known issues with 'sendFrom' on version 0.8.6? I'm using it to send some funds from an account to an address and I'm getting a txid, however the transaction does not appear on neither of the wallets (not even on the sending wallet) and txid does not come up on blockchain.info..
 869 2014-02-08 17:18:07 <xabbix> Using the JSON RPC
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 871 2014-02-08 17:19:38 <sipa> it should at least appear in listtransactions
 872 2014-02-08 17:19:59 <sipa> and your node will periodically rebroadcast it
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 875 2014-02-08 17:21:01 <xabbix> Quite worried since the sent amount was removed from my account balance and i received the txid however it's not listed in the transaction list..
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 877 2014-02-08 17:21:29 <sipa> that's not possible
 878 2014-02-08 17:21:39 <xabbix> I know, right? I'll recheck everything now..
 879 2014-02-08 17:21:47 <sipa> the only way it can be deducted from the account balance is because a transaction is claiming it
 880 2014-02-08 17:21:55 <sipa> as account balances are computed on the fly
 881 2014-02-08 17:22:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Shavua tov, everyone
 882 2014-02-08 17:22:36 <xabbix> and if it is indeed not in the listtransactions, that will qualify for a bug right? I mean there's no reason for this transaction not to be listed right away in the listtransactions
 883 2014-02-08 17:23:38 Xeno-Genesis_ has joined
 884 2014-02-08 17:23:54 <xabbix> michagogo|cloud: Shavua tov ben adam :)
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 888 2014-02-08 17:28:23 <xabbix> sipa: Yep, it's there... my bad :)
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 893 2014-02-08 17:46:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|helo: ping
 894 2014-02-08 17:47:15 <Bisbee> pong
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 906 2014-02-08 18:03:16 <Michail1> Does anyone have bitcoind running on a raspberry pi?  If so, I would like some help and/or link to the compiled daemon.  I have tried reimaging the unit and different method for compile.  Although it compiles there is many "warnings"   When I run the unit I end up with many errors.    Stuff like.... InvalidChainFound: Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to
 907 2014-02-08 18:03:17 <Michail1> upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
 908 2014-02-08 18:03:38 <Michail1> I have rescanned (even though a new wallet), and even reindexed.
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 910 2014-02-08 18:04:31 <gmaxwell> Michail1: I am assuming you just copied the database from some other system. You can't do that— it's not sufficiently portable.
 911 2014-02-08 18:04:38 <Michail1> I copied the blocks/chain from a centos machine.   When it fires
 912 2014-02-08 18:05:17 <Michail1> So, can't copy blocks from a centos box?  (I thought the issue was only windows vs linux copying)
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 914 2014-02-08 18:06:56 <sipa> you get errors when you run the unit tests?
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 916 2014-02-08 18:07:49 <Michail1> I didn't run any tests.  I simply copied .bitcoin from the centos.  when I run bitcoind, I see things like...
 917 2014-02-08 18:07:52 <Michail1> 2014-02-08 17:54:56 Verifying last 288 blocks at level 3
 918 2014-02-08 18:07:53 <Michail1> 2014-02-08 18:01:21 No coin database inconsistencies in last 106 blocks (40693 transactions)
 919 2014-02-08 18:08:11 <sipa> that looks good
 920 2014-02-08 18:08:20 <Michail1> Even though it looked pretty, I still get errors.
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 922 2014-02-08 18:08:48 <Michail1> 2014-02-08 18:01:39 InvalidChainFound: invalid block=000000000000000068cd37ef51c531c26a583223e6ce267bc1bebad3ddf537e2  height=284821  log2_work=76.420609  date=2014-02-08 16:09:10
 923 2014-02-08 18:08:49 <Michail1> 2014-02-08 18:01:39 InvalidChainFound:  current best=0000000000000000030e3738a2a833a1d4fbde0ae6887fd04c96798f54147cd2  height=284498  log2_work=76.367776  date=2014-02-06 18:51:31
 924 2014-02-08 18:08:49 <Michail1> 2014-02-08 18:01:39 InvalidChainFound: Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
 925 2014-02-08 18:09:03 <sipa> do you have the log further back?
 926 2014-02-08 18:09:11 <Michail1> yuppers.
 927 2014-02-08 18:09:19 <sipa> to show the first time when 284498 got connected?
 928 2014-02-08 18:10:24 <Michail1> No, the was on the cent box.   (Which I reindexed since it is so much faster and rescan/reindex than the pi)
 929 2014-02-08 18:10:45 <Michail1> 2014-02-08 18:01:37 trying connection 69.142.56.251:8333 lastseen=7.2hrs
 930 2014-02-08 18:10:46 <Michail1> 2014-02-08 18:01:39 received block 000000000000000068cd37ef51c531c26a583223e6ce267bc1bebad3ddf537e2
 931 2014-02-08 18:10:46 <Michail1> 2014-02-08 18:01:39 InvalidChainFound: invalid block=000000000000000068cd37ef51c531c26a583223e6ce267bc1bebad3ddf537e2  height=284821  log2_work=76.420609  date=2014-02-08 16:09:10
 932 2014-02-08 18:10:46 <Michail1> 2014-02-08 18:01:39 InvalidChainFound:  current best=0000000000000000030e3738a2a833a1d4fbde0ae6887fd04c96798f54147cd2  height=284498  log2_work=76.367776  date=2014-02-06 18:51:31
 933 2014-02-08 18:11:02 <Michail1> So, if received it, and instead said invalid.
 934 2014-02-08 18:11:07 <Michail1> instantly
 935 2014-02-08 18:11:07 <sipa> well the database you have considers 284499 and everything after it invalid
 936 2014-02-08 18:11:44 <sipa> it won't try to connect 284821, as the chain it connects to is already considered invalid
 937 2014-02-08 18:12:04 <Michail1> suggestion?
 938 2014-02-08 18:12:21 <sipa> don't run bitcoin on a rpi :)
 939 2014-02-08 18:12:26 <Michail1> (Also, after the error, then mapsz fills up to 10001, etc.
 940 2014-02-08 18:12:27 <Michail1> LOL
 941 2014-02-08 18:12:35 <sipa> i don't really have any suggestions apart from that
 942 2014-02-08 18:12:45 <sipa> if you can make it work, please submit a patch
 943 2014-02-08 18:12:46 <Michail1> sipa - Thanks.  I know that.  It's just for "fun"   the concept.
 944 2014-02-08 18:12:51 Guest47055 has joined
 945 2014-02-08 18:13:28 <Michail1> Got 4x pis in different stanges trying to make it work now.   thanks.  will do.
 946 2014-02-08 18:14:03 <Michail1> was hoping someone had a precompiled copy to try on the DB I have setup
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 953 2014-02-08 18:22:17 <Michail1> Question - does bootstrap.dat have to be loaded at the beginning, or can I use it at a middle point.  Meaning, let's say I have the client (on its own) sync to 100000.  Can I shut down the daemon and fire back up with loadblock?
 954 2014-02-08 18:22:45 <sipa> yup
 955 2014-02-08 18:23:00 <sipa> -loadblock and bootstrap.dat just feed blocks to the client as if they were received from network
 956 2014-02-08 18:23:23 <Michail1> thanks
 957 2014-02-08 18:23:54 <PLM3> Say, If I have couple hosts in a NAT which doesn't port map, can I easily connect their bitcoin clients one to another?
 958 2014-02-08 18:24:27 <PLM3> connect=192.168...
 959 2014-02-08 18:24:49 <PLM3> or will the connection be automagically dropped, because it's the same external IP for both hosts
 960 2014-02-08 18:25:17 <sipa> connect will work fine
 961 2014-02-08 18:25:32 <sipa> the limitation on per-ip-block connections is only for outgoing ones
 962 2014-02-08 18:27:07 <PLM3> I'm stuck on this somewhy, when I try to "telnet 192.168... 8333" I can see in iptables output, where the counter is that the packet went through
 963 2014-02-08 18:27:15 <PLM3> but when bitcoind tries to connect nothing happens
 964 2014-02-08 18:27:40 <PLM3> debug.log of the one initiating connection just says "trying connection 192.168"
 965 2014-02-08 18:28:53 <PLM3> must be some voodoo stuff... I'll just go and replug the cables or something
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 972 2014-02-08 18:33:50 <Michail1> sipa - Not that you care or want to; however, do you want SSH to the pi for a look before I blow it up again tonight?  (Public facing IP)
 973 2014-02-08 18:34:56 <gavinandresen> sipa: say no, I don't want you to get distracted....
 974 2014-02-08 18:35:29 <Michail1> OK.   no prob gavin.  Didn't know he was taken already.  :)
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 978 2014-02-08 18:36:26 <sipa> gavinandresen: no worries, no time :)
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 993 2014-02-08 18:55:10 <midnightmagic> ô/window goto 18
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1009 2014-02-08 19:04:19 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hands midnightmagic a backspace key
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1011 2014-02-08 19:09:56 * pjorrit hands the ^ remover
1012 2014-02-08 19:10:34 <midnightmagic> dern thing anyway
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1026 2014-02-08 19:20:38 <pjorrit> i just got killed so hard.. don't even know where they came from
1027 2014-02-08 19:21:07 <pjorrit> wow
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1029 2014-02-08 19:23:36 <jcorgan> ?
1030 2014-02-08 19:24:24 <sipa> ?
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1032 2014-02-08 19:25:20 <pjorrit> wrong window, don't worry still very much alive irl
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1040 2014-02-08 19:35:55 <liori> hello, can i safely remove ~/.bitcoin/blkindex.dat? it's 1.8GiB here, and i am not sure, but it might be just an artifact of pre-0.8?
1041 2014-02-08 19:36:10 <sipa> you can remove it
1042 2014-02-08 19:36:16 <sipa> 0.8.x and above don't use it
1043 2014-02-08 19:37:19 <liori> i've also got ~/.bitcoin/blk000[123].dat files, which are hardlinks to similar files in ~/.bitcoin/blocks. can i do the same thing with them?
1044 2014-02-08 19:37:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|yep
1045 2014-02-08 19:37:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(they don't hurt anything, because they're just links, but no reason to keep them around)
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1047 2014-02-08 19:38:52 <liori> and last question. i remember that in pre-0.8, i had to back up the whole ~/.bitcoin for safety. if i understand correctly, i can now skip ~/.bitcoin/blocks without breaking the wallet?
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1049 2014-02-08 19:39:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|All you've ever needed in the wallet
1050 2014-02-08 19:40:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But, if you also back up ~/.bitcoin/blocks and ~/.bitcoin/chainstate, you will save yourself resyncing the entire blockchain if you lose them
1051 2014-02-08 19:40:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat is _the_ inportant file, the one that you should keep safe, back up securely to multiple locations, etc
1052 2014-02-08 19:40:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(and also keep secured)
1053 2014-02-08 19:40:50 <liori> the thing is, the blockchain takes ~100GB of my backup space now (-:. i can take the hit of redownloading the blockchain in case of disk failure, especially as i've got a copy on a second machine anyway
1054 2014-02-08 19:40:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|the blocks and chainstate dirs are "nice to have"
1055 2014-02-08 19:41:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, you don't need more than one revision of them
1056 2014-02-08 19:41:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|s/needed in/needed is/
1057 2014-02-08 19:42:16 <sipa> liori: at least of the blocks/ directory, you only need a single copy
1058 2014-02-08 19:42:24 <sipa> as the data in it is append-only
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1060 2014-02-08 19:42:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, actually that's right
1061 2014-02-08 19:43:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Chainstate you may want to keep revisioned
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1064 2014-02-08 19:44:21 <liori> ok, thank you.
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1069 2014-02-08 19:47:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, does gitian set $OUTDIR on its own, outside of the script?
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1072 2014-02-08 19:48:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|yep: https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder/blob/master/bin/gbuild#L98
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1078 2014-02-08 19:52:16 <pjorrit> yea the blockchain is pretty well backed up :)
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1113 2014-02-08 20:21:42 <Michail1> sipa - Something to note between the centos machine and the pi....   centos is making the files -rw------- 1 root root 134217728 Apr 14  2013 blk00000.dat   while the pi is:  -rw------- 1 pi pi 134214363 Feb  8 11:31 blk00000.dat
1114 2014-02-08 20:22:47 <Michail1> The cent box has all blk files at exactly 134217728 bytes.   The compare between them so far show that they are identical other than trailing 00 to make the exact file length.
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1116 2014-02-08 20:23:08 <Michail1> Not saying this is the issue; however, the files are different so far in that fashion only.
1117 2014-02-08 20:24:02 <sipa> Michail1: well bitcoin version on the centos box?
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1120 2014-02-08 20:25:09 <Michail1> 0.8.6
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1122 2014-02-08 20:25:16 <Michail1> same
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1126 2014-02-08 20:26:10 <Michail1> however, it was an upgrade from 0.8.1   (Even the 8.6 is making the block the same size)
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1132 2014-02-08 20:29:05 <sipa> new block files are almost the max size
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1134 2014-02-08 20:29:20 <sipa> since 0.8.2, when moving to a new file, the old one is trimmed down to the actually used space
1135 2014-02-08 20:29:27 <Michail1> new blocks are the same size...
1136 2014-02-08 20:29:31 <Michail1> -rw------- 1 root root 134217728 Feb  2 18:13 blk00110.dat
1137 2014-02-08 20:29:32 <sipa> s/almost/always/
1138 2014-02-08 20:29:32 <Michail1> -rw------- 1 root root 134217728 Feb  2 18:24 blk00111.dat
1139 2014-02-08 20:29:34 <Michail1> -rw------- 1 root root 134217728 Feb  6 10:01 blk00112.dat
1140 2014-02-08 20:29:35 <Michail1> -rw------- 1 root root 117440512 Feb  8 08:09 blk00113.dat
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1142 2014-02-08 20:29:54 <sipa> and that's 0.8.6 making them?
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1145 2014-02-08 20:30:29 <Michail1> yes
1146 2014-02-08 20:30:31 <Michail1>     "version" : 80600,
1147 2014-02-08 20:30:31 <Michail1>     "protocolversion" : 70001,
1148 2014-02-08 20:30:31 <Michail1>     "walletversion" : 60000,
1149 2014-02-08 20:30:31 <Michail1>     "balance" : 0.00000000,
1150 2014-02-08 20:30:31 <Michail1>     "blocks" : 284852,
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1167 2014-02-08 20:36:55 <sipa> Michail1: what filesystem?
1168 2014-02-08 20:37:07 <Michail1> (And yes, I know it is behind.  I had it shutdown in order to copy .bitcoin to the pi) It's catching up now.
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1172 2014-02-08 20:38:48 <sipa> do you see "Leaving block file " entries in your debug.log?
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1174 2014-02-08 20:39:12 <Michail1> ext4
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1176 2014-02-08 20:39:45 <Michail1> ext4 on both
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1179 2014-02-08 20:41:53 <Michail1> on centos (No, because I deleted the debug log this morning.  :(     I DO have those on the pi.
1180 2014-02-08 20:42:06 <Michail1> or wait.
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1185 2014-02-08 20:44:08 <Michail1> Ok, yes, I have them.   The "size" in the debug log does not match the actual file sizes in the folder.
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1187 2014-02-08 20:45:06 <sipa> what is being logged is the preallocation
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1189 2014-02-08 20:45:19 <sipa> anytime we move to a new block file, we preallocate it on disk, to prevent fragmentation
1190 2014-02-08 20:45:34 <sipa> at that point, the old block file is trimmed to its actually used size
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1193 2014-02-08 20:46:24 <Michail1> Understood, but it would appear the file isn't being trimmed.  It is full size with zeros at the end.
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1195 2014-02-08 20:47:46 <Michail1> This is on the working cent machine.    Not saying this is the issue with the pi; however, just something noticed.  So, maybe the pi daemon doesn't like the 00's.  Just a thought.
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1197 2014-02-08 20:48:18 <sipa> very unlikely
1198 2014-02-08 20:48:30 <sipa> the problem seems to be that the database you copied over is being read incorrectly
1199 2014-02-08 20:48:50 <sipa> as it considers some old block that was processed correctly by the centos machine as invalid
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1201 2014-02-08 20:50:15 <Michail1> thanks.
1202 2014-02-08 20:50:36 <sipa> iirc, there have been leveldb compatibility problems reported before on rpi
1203 2014-02-08 20:50:51 <sipa> which is strange, as the leveldb file format is well defined up to the byte level
1204 2014-02-08 20:51:01 <sipa> so that must mean there's a bug in leveldb on arm
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1206 2014-02-08 20:51:46 <sipa> also, and completely unrelated, i don't understand why the files aren't being trimmed on your centos machine
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1210 2014-02-08 20:54:30 <Michail1> Which makes me worry that I am spinning wheels.  Well, will just let them click away and see if they ever catch up before the SDcards kill themselves.  (In hopes that I could cross copy from PI to pi.    I do find it strange the if I delete index and chainstate (run with rescan and reindex both tried), that it will not work.    Will find out of a start from scratch will help.  ETA 2 or so
1211 2014-02-08 20:54:30 <Michail1> days.
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1215 2014-02-08 20:58:59 <sipa> reindex doesn't work?
1216 2014-02-08 20:59:06 <sipa> that means something is very broken
1217 2014-02-08 20:59:26 <sipa> either the block files are corrupted, or there's something weird with the binary
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1223 2014-02-08 21:06:18 <Michail1> reindex did not work.  That's what I fear as well.   It's why I originally asked if anyone has a compiled bitcoind to try.
1224 2014-02-08 21:06:30 <Michail1> will look at it later.  taken enough of your time.
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1261 2014-02-08 21:35:06 <volante> is vanitygen as good as it gets for generating secure offline addresses?
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1264 2014-02-08 21:38:18 <jcorgan> you don't need vanitygen to create secure offline addresses
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1267 2014-02-08 21:41:13 <Luke-Jr> volante: offline addresses are overrated; these days, you're probably better off with an offline wallet
1268 2014-02-08 21:44:32 <volante> what's the most secure tool for generating an offline wallet?
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1272 2014-02-08 21:46:13 <jakov> offline bitcoind i guess
1273 2014-02-08 21:46:42 <jakov> download bitaddress.org, read its source and run it from an offline computer
1274 2014-02-08 21:46:52 <volante> bitcoind is non deterministic as well so i might as well use vanitygen in that case
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1277 2014-02-08 21:47:26 <volante> and i dont want to use a browser / javascript to do address generation, it just seems wrong
1278 2014-02-08 21:47:29 <xaptah> jakov: armory
1279 2014-02-08 21:47:47 <jakov> what does armory have?
1280 2014-02-08 21:48:06 <jakov> volante electrum then for a deterministic wallet?
1281 2014-02-08 21:48:14 <volante> my understand was that vanitygen was a good implementation, because i see offline wallet printers using it, and it appears to use openssl libraries.  so im just wondering if anyone can vouch for the implementation being sound
1282 2014-02-08 21:50:48 <xaptah> jakov: offline + deterministic
1283 2014-02-08 21:51:11 <jakov> ok good
1284 2014-02-08 21:53:18 cagedwisdom has joined
1285 2014-02-08 21:53:46 <rusty78> Hello, I am looking to hire 1-2 PHP back-end devs for a crypto-project am working on.  Where is the best place to go for looking? Thanks
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1289 2014-02-08 21:54:15 <jakov> maybe /r/jobs4bitcoins
1290 2014-02-08 21:54:18 <jakov> or bitcointalk forum
1291 2014-02-08 21:54:34 <volante> basically i want to build a raspberry pi for generating offline addresses in the most secure way possible, but if it can be a completely deterministic wallet then that would be convenient
1292 2014-02-08 21:54:56 <Luke-Jr> volante: Armory is probably the easiest, but not sure it uses the standard yet
1293 2014-02-08 21:54:58 <rusty78> jakov: thanks
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1296 2014-02-08 21:55:14 <Luke-Jr> jakov: bitcoind does not support offline wallets, nor does bitaddress.org (which is also full of insane ideas)
1297 2014-02-08 21:55:31 <jakov> i thought he meant addresses
1298 2014-02-08 21:55:49 <jakov> he means like a cold storage wallet
1299 2014-02-08 21:55:52 <jakov> i guess
1300 2014-02-08 21:56:01 <jakov> which insane ideas are in bitaddress.org ?
1301 2014-02-08 21:56:04 <Luke-Jr> a single address is not very useful
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1303 2014-02-08 21:56:15 <Luke-Jr> jakov: it encourages sending to an address more than once, which is broken by design
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1305 2014-02-08 21:56:42 <jakov> so paper wallets in general
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1307 2014-02-08 21:57:01 <Luke-Jr> it also encoruages "brainwallets", which are totally insecure
1308 2014-02-08 21:57:11 <Luke-Jr> jakov: no, a single address/ECDSA keypair is not a paper wallet
1309 2014-02-08 21:57:18 <Luke-Jr> jakov: a paper wallet has infinite addresses
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1312 2014-02-08 21:57:58 <volante> so there is no standard for deterministic wallet which has a watch-only key and can have a secure passphrase-protected seed?
1313 2014-02-08 21:58:24 <jakov> depends how you define paper wallet i guess, the wiki page shows single ECDSA keypair printed on paper
1314 2014-02-08 21:58:28 <Luke-Jr> volante: there is, but only pycoin supports it right now I think
1315 2014-02-08 21:58:51 <Luke-Jr> jakov: then fix the wiki. a single ECDSA keypair is not a wallet in itself
1316 2014-02-08 21:59:39 <jakov> unless its been changed recently, it costs money to edit that wiki
1317 2014-02-08 21:59:54 <Luke-Jr> …
1318 2014-02-08 22:00:00 <jakov> antispam measure at first, but with ballooning bitcoin price its just dust  payments anymore
1319 2014-02-08 22:00:01 <Luke-Jr> should be under $1
1320 2014-02-08 22:00:03 <jakov> not just
1321 2014-02-08 22:00:09 <jakov> ill check
1322 2014-02-08 22:00:28 <volante> Luke-Jr: any idea what the BIP# for that is?
1323 2014-02-08 22:00:54 <Luke-Jr> volante: 32
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1325 2014-02-08 22:04:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jakov: It was recently lowered from 0.01 BTC to 0.001 BTC
1326 2014-02-08 22:04:21 <jakov> ok
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1328 2014-02-08 22:05:56 <volante> Luke-Jr: does that standard support passphrasing the seed?  i can't find that in the BIP document.  or would i need to do my own encryption scheme to keep the seed safe?
1329 2014-02-08 22:06:35 <jcorgan> volante: it does not.  there is a proposal on bc.i for doing so, that has yet to be assigned a bip, but that should be soon
1330 2014-02-08 22:06:41 <jcorgan> bct.org, not bc.i
1331 2014-02-08 22:07:00 <volante> i like how BIP38 has the "intermediate code", so i could put that in an offline device without compromising my passphrase
1332 2014-02-08 22:07:28 <jcorgan> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=258678
1333 2014-02-08 22:08:13 <jcorgan> this specifically addresses the use case of storing an HD wallet seed with a PBKDF scheme to create an encrypted backup that still requires a passphrase to restore
1334 2014-02-08 22:08:30 <volante> jcorgan: awesome, thanks
1335 2014-02-08 22:08:37 <Luke-Jr> volante: I don't think that BIP does.
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1337 2014-02-08 22:08:54 <Luke-Jr> what jcorgan said
1338 2014-02-08 22:09:10 <volante> so it seems i need to wait for that to become a standard and be implemented
1339 2014-02-08 22:09:36 <volante> ..before i can build an awesome offline wallet printer :p
1340 2014-02-08 22:09:38 <jcorgan> it has a reference implementation listed at the very end of the thread
1341 2014-02-08 22:09:51 <jcorgan> i'm working on another one for my bip32utils
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1343 2014-02-08 22:12:59 <volante> also can have a 2nd passphrase for plausible deniability.  this sounds awesome
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1363 2014-02-08 22:20:21 <Herb_68000> I'm trying to grasp the concept of HD-wallets (bip32). I want to monitor all incoming payments to my addresses on an unsecure system. Without Bip32 I need to manually set up the addresses to watch. With Bip32 i only need to know my "public extended key" and can calculate all possible addresses.
1364 2014-02-08 22:20:36 <Herb_68000> But how many addresses should I pre-calculate?
1365 2014-02-08 22:21:01 <jcorgan> that depends on how you assign addresses to users for payments
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1369 2014-02-08 22:21:55 <Herb_68000> If each address is used only once: Whenever a transaction is spotted, calculate the next address?
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1371 2014-02-08 22:22:25 <jcorgan> that's one way
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1373 2014-02-08 22:22:47 <Herb_68000> Or maybe 5 in advance.
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1375 2014-02-08 22:23:01 <Herb_68000> But theres always a risk that there is a gap in address usage.
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1380 2014-02-08 22:24:31 <Herb_68000> So i could end up missing transaction. This problem probably already has been discussed somewhere... Are there any good pointer on bip32 reading?
1381 2014-02-08 22:25:32 justanotheruser has joined
1382 2014-02-08 22:25:33 <sipa> Herb_68000: it's very simple: you decide yourself what gap you allow
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1384 2014-02-08 22:25:56 <sipa> Herb_68000: if you give out an address when the previous N aren't used yet, you need a lookahead of at least N addresses
1385 2014-02-08 22:26:06 <sipa> i'd say set it to 100 or so, or 1000 if you must
1386 2014-02-08 22:26:41 <sipa> and make your system alert an operator if it's about to hand out the 100th or 1000th subsequent address that isn't used yet
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1388 2014-02-08 22:27:55 <Herb_68000> Hmm, understood. But it's more complicated :) Specifically I am thinking about adding bip32 support to bitcoinmonitor.net, meaning I ONLY have the public extended key, but no knowledge how many addresses are used...
1389 2014-02-08 22:28:17 volante has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1390 2014-02-08 22:29:29 <sipa> then use some sane default, like 100
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1392 2014-02-08 22:30:53 <Herb_68000> Yeah, also think there is no better way to decide. Or I ask the users to set the value.
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1394 2014-02-08 22:31:20 <sipa> and ask them to pay if they need to set the value very high :)
1395 2014-02-08 22:31:25 <Herb_68000> Yep :)
1396 2014-02-08 22:32:11 <sipa> also, if you set it too low, the result will be that you will simply miss everything sent to addresses that were generated after some point in time
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1398 2014-02-08 22:32:22 <sipa> so you'd miss your most recent transactions, which is hopefully obvious
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1401 2014-02-08 22:33:34 <Herb_68000> I would add an option for the users to set one-time-usage addresses. So as soon as a payment is spotted I will stop monitoring that address.
1402 2014-02-08 22:33:51 <Herb_68000> Should keep the number of watched addresses a bit lower.
1403 2014-02-08 22:34:25 <Herb_68000> I just don't like the overall idea. It is not deterministic anymore.
1404 2014-02-08 22:34:37 <sipa> ideally, all addresses are one-time-use :)
1405 2014-02-08 22:34:53 <sipa> practice is different currently, of course
1406 2014-02-08 22:34:57 <Herb_68000> Yeah, but you know in reality this will still take a lot of time...
1407 2014-02-08 22:35:02 <Herb_68000> :)
1408 2014-02-08 22:35:06 <sipa> but hopefully bip32 and payment protocol will improve upon that
1409 2014-02-08 22:35:56 <Herb_68000> Is bip32 in for 0.9 core?
1410 2014-02-08 22:36:26 <sipa> unfortunately not
1411 2014-02-08 22:36:41 <sipa> i have it almost fully implemented, but we're already at 0.9.0rc1
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1413 2014-02-08 22:37:35 <Herb_68000> pity :-/ But I can imagine the implementation is tricky.
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1416 2014-02-08 22:39:31 <Herb_68000> So, what will happen if I create a HD wallet in bitcoin-core (in 0.10 ;) ? How do you decide how many addresses to check for balance?
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1419 2014-02-08 22:40:35 <Herb_68000> THis sounds problematic from UI perspective.... Will there be a button "search more addresses" if I am missing a transaction?
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1423 2014-02-08 22:43:46 <Herb_68000> THere is also an interesting read on this topic on https://gergely.imreh.net/blog/2014/02/making-a-bitcoin-service-web-hierarchical-deterministic-wallet/
1424 2014-02-08 22:43:51 aynsteinaltego has joined
1425 2014-02-08 22:43:52 <Herb_68000> "All of these addresses are checked with the Blockchain.info JSON API whether they ever had any transactions. If they did, then check for the spendable coins, and generate some more addresses in the chain. This tries to reduce address reuse and ensure that all addresses used so far are checked. Of course, this is one of the weaknesses of BIP32 - one can never really be sure without a lot of computation or out-of-band
1426 2014-02-08 22:43:54 <Herb_68000> communication whether all the addresses ever used with the key are accounted for."
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1429 2014-02-08 22:47:15 <sipa> Herb_68000: well, for starters the wallet in bitcoin core doesn't support sharing with a different setup, and at least initially the ability to recover from a seed will be limited
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1431 2014-02-08 22:47:24 <sipa> Herb_68000: so the lookahead question doesn't matter
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1433 2014-02-08 22:47:48 <sipa> i consider recovering from a seed a last-resort disaster recovery
1434 2014-02-08 22:47:53 aynsteinaltego is now known as aynstein
1435 2014-02-08 22:47:58 <sipa> not really something you'd do regularly
1436 2014-02-08 22:48:19 <sipa> which is different from setups where you want to do online checking of a balance based on just the extended key
1437 2014-02-08 22:48:25 <sipa> those are inevitably more constrained
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1439 2014-02-08 22:49:42 <Herb_68000> sipa: Ah, not supporting sharing makes sense. Reduces a lot of the possible issues.
1440 2014-02-08 22:51:07 <sipa> ideally, you'd want the client to warn you when you're creating an address which exceeds a certain lookahead of unused addresses
1441 2014-02-08 22:52:25 <Herb_68000> good idea.
1442 2014-02-08 22:53:08 <Herb_68000> But the more I think about it, it think it will be difficult to explain these constrains to Joe User...
1443 2014-02-08 22:53:47 <Herb_68000> Will be interesting to see how the various clients will deal with it :)
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1445 2014-02-08 22:54:07 <sipa> i think that for Joe User a lookahead of 100 addresses will suffice in 99.9% of the cases :)
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1447 2014-02-08 22:54:23 <sipa> and a "Help, some recent transactions are missing!" button can do wonders
1448 2014-02-08 22:55:20 <Herb_68000> Yeah, probably right. We're discussing edge cases here...
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1468 2014-02-08 23:27:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Even if that button looks ahead 1,000 or even 10,000 addresses, that's not necessarily too bad, considering that it's a button that should rarely get used
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1470 2014-02-08 23:28:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(though it would need to be labelled in such a way that people don't use it when they don't need to)
1471 2014-02-08 23:28:12 Asa9 has joined
1472 2014-02-08 23:28:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, I'm getting lots of "warning: -fPIC ignored for target (all code is position independent) [enabled by default]" lines when building
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1474 2014-02-08 23:28:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|2 per CXX line
1475 2014-02-08 23:28:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is that normal?
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1482 2014-02-08 23:34:16 <rusty78> Hello, I am looking to hire 1-2 PHP back-end devs for a crypto-project am working on.  Where is the best place to go for looking? Thanks
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1486 2014-02-08 23:40:51 <jakov> how did it go at /r/jobs4bitcoin and the bitcointalk forums ?
1487 2014-02-08 23:41:06 <rusty78> I posted
1488 2014-02-08 23:41:20 <jakov> actually now that i think of it, nothing in your sentance specifically says bitcoin, maybe you could try on a normal job posting site
1489 2014-02-08 23:41:31 <jakov> crypto is widely known outside bitcoin-land
1490 2014-02-08 23:42:07 <rusty78> Well it is for bitcoin :p, sorry for the mis-clarification
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