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12 2014-02-09 00:06:15 <jakov> ok
13 2014-02-09 00:06:50 <jakov> well best of luck on your posts, i guess you could also try asking around irc every so often
14 2014-02-09 00:06:58 <jakov> wait you're doing that now arnt you ; )
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67 2014-02-09 01:00:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, cfields is listed in the Credits section of the release notes twice
68 2014-02-09 01:00:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|As Cory Fields, and as theuni
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253 2014-02-09 05:03:21 <jcorgan> sipa: ever going to pick back up #2802?
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271 2014-02-09 05:40:09 <PLM3> fully synced blockchain is 17gigs, this is normal or I'm using wrong FS ?
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273 2014-02-09 05:42:38 <fanquake> PLM3 Sounds about right.
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530 2014-02-09 12:36:56 orweinberger has joined
531 2014-02-09 12:37:12 <orweinberger> How can I 'listen' to new unconfirmed transactions and block the way blockchain.info does?
532 2014-02-09 12:39:02 benrcole1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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534 2014-02-09 12:39:39 <jn> http://www.bitlisten.com/
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536 2014-02-09 12:41:23 <sipa> orweinberger: -blocknotify and -walletnotify in the reference client
537 2014-02-09 12:41:24 owowo has joined
538 2014-02-09 12:41:49 <sipa> orweinberger: or hse one of the many bitcoin p2p libraries, and listen for the blocks/transactions difectly yourself
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540 2014-02-09 12:42:31 <orweinberger> sipa: Thanks!
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549 2014-02-09 13:03:04 <_MrB_> are logs of this channel accessible on the web?
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551 2014-02-09 13:04:15 <sipa> yes
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554 2014-02-09 13:06:28 <_MrB_> i found bitcoinstats.com but that is not searchable
555 2014-02-09 13:06:47 <sipa> google is your friend
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559 2014-02-09 13:10:09 <_MrB_> apparently not because it's not giving me anythin useful other than bitcoinstats.com
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588 2014-02-09 13:54:05 <sipa> petertodd: how do you feel about my proposed kdf?
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599 2014-02-09 14:03:55 <petertodd> sipa: it's fine, I mainly just haven't been bringing it up because I think something truly dead simple is more likely to help the bip39 process along; I'm not sure they need kdf's at all
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601 2014-02-09 14:04:34 <petertodd> sipa: (it'd be fair to say your kdf is where I got the idea to grind to a distinguished point)
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607 2014-02-09 14:12:30 <sipa> fair enough
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629 2014-02-09 14:22:48 <alex_fun> heya
630 2014-02-09 14:23:09 <sipa> petertodd: i just don't want to keep pushing my own solution, as i'm likely not objective about it :)
631 2014-02-09 14:23:34 <petertodd> sipa: heh, same here, so I'll call my solution your one :P
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Ð¾Ð¶Ñ Ñ Ð¾Ñ Ð²Ð°Ñ (xchat 2.4.5 или ÑÑаÑÑе))
633 2014-02-09 14:23:56 <alex_fun> when btc daemon starts it first looks for trusted nodes that are A record of dns.xyz.com sites? and then does it also checks pnseeds if nodes found already? or only when dns threat returns 0 addresses?
634 2014-02-09 14:24:05 <alex_fun> heya petertodd )
635 2014-02-09 14:24:05 <alex_fun> :)
636 2014-02-09 14:24:09 <petertodd> alex_fun: s/trusted//
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638 2014-02-09 14:24:35 <petertodd> alex_fun: you're thinking of the seed nodes, and on a full client they can't do all that much to harm you
639 2014-02-09 14:24:59 <alex_fun> petertodd: yes, I am just curious how it all works
640 2014-02-09 14:25:19 <petertodd> alex_fun: and yeah, I think the logic is to use the seeds first, and only then resort to pnseeds
641 2014-02-09 14:25:46 <alex_fun> it seems dns seed nodes simply serve as name holders for seeds who addresses are IP addresses in A record of dns server domain name
642 2014-02-09 14:26:01 <sipa> alex_fun: most dns seeds return many IP addresses
643 2014-02-09 14:26:04 <petertodd> alex_fun: the dns seed nodes tend to run special software that scans the network looking for ip addresses
644 2014-02-09 14:26:14 <sipa> alex_fun: and return different ones each time
645 2014-02-09 14:26:25 <petertodd> alex_fun: try host testnet-seed.bitcoin.petertodd.org
646 2014-02-09 14:26:25 <sipa> they're just using DNS as a very scalable distribution mechanism
647 2014-02-09 14:26:29 <alex_fun> lol I made test dns node with boxes that run code
648 2014-02-09 14:26:31 <alex_fun> and it works
649 2014-02-09 14:26:49 <alex_fun> but I did not know how to add the aforementioned extra
650 2014-02-09 14:26:51 <petertodd> alex_fun: I can assure you most boxes run code :P
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652 2014-02-09 14:27:27 <alex_fun> i did test by running 1 node with diff params and box nr 1 said bad node and removed its IP from addr manager
653 2014-02-09 14:27:33 <alex_fun> something like that
654 2014-02-09 14:27:51 <petertodd> oh, you were messing around making an alt coin?
655 2014-02-09 14:27:54 <alex_fun> to see if i can connect nodes with diff POW params to net somehow and how they are detected
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657 2014-02-09 14:28:39 <alex_fun> petertodd: lol 0 comments, lets say I reverse engeneer code to see how it works
658 2014-02-09 14:28:45 <petertodd> yeah, you'll get ignored and eventually wind up on the DoS-ban list of most nodes on the network
659 2014-02-09 14:29:05 <alex_fun> its rather clever
660 2014-02-09 14:29:55 <alex_fun> <petertodd> alex_fun: the dns seed nodes tend to run special software that scans the network looking for ip addresses - yet it seems each node runs it, they have some build it params to detect bad nodes
661 2014-02-09 14:29:59 <petertodd> interesting, someone created a "StealthBit" thing that genuinely implements part of stealth addresses, and they provided binaries that are malware: https://pay.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1xf2qj/my_wallet_just_emptied_into_this_address/
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663 2014-02-09 14:30:24 <alex_fun> petertodd: what woud sleathbit do?
664 2014-02-09 14:30:52 <petertodd> alex_fun: it basically just did some ECC multiplication; didn't implement anything participarly useful
665 2014-02-09 14:31:10 <petertodd> alex_fun: and it looks like the binaries, but not the soruce code, had some kind of wallet stealing malware
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667 2014-02-09 14:32:04 <alex_fun> yes as source code would be too obvious :)
668 2014-02-09 14:32:16 <alex_fun> reddit is FUD land often :)
669 2014-02-09 14:32:23 <petertodd> yup! some plausibile deniability there too, potentially
670 2014-02-09 14:32:46 <alex_fun> anyone can compile btc binaries as mallware too and blame who knows what :D
671 2014-02-09 14:33:06 <petertodd> alex_fun: we have deterministic builds for that reason - multiple independent people compile the bitcoin core binaries
672 2014-02-09 14:33:23 <alex_fun> and sign with pgp?
673 2014-02-09 14:33:35 <petertodd> yup
674 2014-02-09 14:33:35 <alex_fun> or some way to make sure they are those who compiled it?
675 2014-02-09 14:33:49 <alex_fun> oki thats nice
676 2014-02-09 14:34:16 <petertodd> tl;dr: don't ever trust wallet software that isn't pgp signed
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678 2014-02-09 14:34:43 <alex_fun> there is way easier solution
679 2014-02-09 14:34:53 <alex_fun> run wallet with 0.1 btc
680 2014-02-09 14:34:57 <alex_fun> and see if it goes or stays :D
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682 2014-02-09 14:35:08 <petertodd> necessary, but not sufficient :)
683 2014-02-09 14:35:17 <alex_fun> if it goes , give it to u mother in law :)
684 2014-02-09 14:35:57 <alex_fun> petertodd: with intel cpu there is no 100% security imo
685 2014-02-09 14:36:05 <alex_fun> however I care 0
686 2014-02-09 14:36:16 <petertodd> alex_fun: nah, hiding complex hardware backdoors in ICs isn't as easy as it sounds...
687 2014-02-09 14:36:47 <alex_fun> petertodd: my mate served in Iraq and he told me road mines used there detected intel military hardware ;)
688 2014-02-09 14:36:49 <alex_fun> and well anyways
689 2014-02-09 14:37:26 <petertodd> alex_fun: the hiding part is easy, but making the backdoor actually do something beyond backdoor a specific piece of software isn't easy, which lets you do tricks like get old hardware, run new software on it, and be reasonably confident
690 2014-02-09 14:37:38 <petertodd> alex_fun: guarantee you they didn't; insurgents aren't that sophisticated
691 2014-02-09 14:38:05 <alex_fun> the dns nodes do they have some ability to notify all network of bad nodes? like when new person joins his node knows which nodes to ban?
692 2014-02-09 14:38:18 <alex_fun> petertodd: insurgents aren't that sophisticated - correct
693 2014-02-09 14:38:18 <alex_fun> :)
694 2014-02-09 14:38:19 <petertodd> nope
695 2014-02-09 14:38:24 <alex_fun> would be nice
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697 2014-02-09 14:38:41 <petertodd> the whole point of bitcoin is that it doesn't matter if you are connected to a "bad" node anyway
698 2014-02-09 14:38:50 <alex_fun> say there is dust or ddos, dns nodes detect such nodes and add to some globally availble net
699 2014-02-09 14:39:05 <petertodd> I suggest you think harder about what you are saying
700 2014-02-09 14:39:06 <alex_fun> petertodd: how come? cause bad POW is rejected anyway?
701 2014-02-09 14:39:36 kinglet has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
702 2014-02-09 14:39:39 <alex_fun> I am trying to see what is role of `dns` servers apart of them been place holders for trusted nodes IP
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704 2014-02-09 14:39:45 <alex_fun> hence the questions
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706 2014-02-09 14:40:21 <petertodd> you'll understand it when you understand why those nodes aren't trusted
707 2014-02-09 14:40:28 <alex_fun> [16:26] <sipa> they're just using DNS as a very scalable distribution mechanism - ok so just distribute nodes ips
708 2014-02-09 14:40:49 <alex_fun> petertodd: well I know that each node independently verify POW params
709 2014-02-09 14:40:58 <petertodd> alex_fun: that's a start
710 2014-02-09 14:41:06 <alex_fun> else someone can change reward to 100 coins, diff to 1, etc
711 2014-02-09 14:41:07 <alex_fun> as they like
712 2014-02-09 14:41:16 <petertodd> alex_fun: have you read the original satoshi bitcoin paper?
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714 2014-02-09 14:41:27 <alex_fun> like 30 times
715 2014-02-09 14:41:37 <alex_fun> or more
716 2014-02-09 14:41:58 <alex_fun> my new plan it to hire mentor who can explain it to me
717 2014-02-09 14:42:03 <alex_fun> lol
718 2014-02-09 14:42:23 <petertodd> heh, well, in that case, how much are you offering?
719 2014-02-09 14:42:30 <alex_fun> the basics are simple its just I dont know what those math symbols mean, I may try in math
720 2014-02-09 14:42:35 <alex_fun> well 50 to 100 usd per hour
721 2014-02-09 14:42:43 <alex_fun> depends how many hours it can take also
722 2014-02-09 14:42:54 <petertodd> how many hours it takes depends on how smart you are :P
723 2014-02-09 14:42:56 <alex_fun> i may decide on lump sum next week dor sure
724 2014-02-09 14:42:58 <alex_fun> yep :D
725 2014-02-09 14:43:15 <petertodd> but you may be able to get a better deal from someone other than me
726 2014-02-09 14:43:21 <alex_fun> I find when Sipa says something I understand well
727 2014-02-09 14:43:32 <alex_fun> when some other people say it well it depends
728 2014-02-09 14:43:48 <alex_fun> and his explanations on wiki is easy to get
729 2014-02-09 14:44:09 <petertodd> there is an art to being a good teacher; I spent six years doing a fine arts degree, and a good chunk of that involved explaining complex technical art to laymen
730 2014-02-09 14:44:46 <alex_fun> yes
731 2014-02-09 14:45:11 <Belxjander> petertodd: being able to simplify the description of anything so even a young child can grasp the basic concepts and then deal with the details in a progressive manner ?
732 2014-02-09 14:45:21 <alex_fun> many people pissed offed by people simplicity
733 2014-02-09 14:45:34 <petertodd> Belxjander: simplify isn't necessarily the right approach
734 2014-02-09 14:45:36 <alex_fun> like Newton said he wants to his mother even
735 2014-02-09 14:45:38 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
736 2014-02-09 14:45:50 <alex_fun> but Archimedes and Sipa are good at explaning
737 2014-02-09 14:45:52 <petertodd> Belxjander: simplify bitcoin and you quickly aren't describing bitcoin
738 2014-02-09 14:45:58 <alex_fun> and some more people I maybe dont know
739 2014-02-09 14:46:26 <alex_fun> petertodd: yet Archimesed was able to explain in simple terms while correct as well
740 2014-02-09 14:46:33 <Belxjander> petertodd: yup
741 2014-02-09 14:46:42 <alex_fun> Archimedes
742 2014-02-09 14:46:55 <petertodd> alex_fun: note that it helps that bitcoin *is* really simple in many ways
743 2014-02-09 14:47:05 <Belxjander> petertodd: I start with some base concepts using money they already know...and then change a couple of things...just "roughly explaining some parts" of how bitcoin works
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745 2014-02-09 14:47:43 <Belxjander> petertodd: I actually have a couple of students where I work now who became interested in looking at bitcoin...no idea if they actually bought any or not
746 2014-02-09 14:47:51 <Belxjander> but they DID ask me for further information
747 2014-02-09 14:47:58 <petertodd> Belxjander: re: money, I tend to start with the analogy of a village where everyone has a book of transactions, and everyone is honest
748 2014-02-09 14:48:30 <petertodd> Belxjander: helps to get people in the model that bitcoin is just a bunch of information too
749 2014-02-09 14:48:50 <petertodd> Belxjander: also, good to hold back on explaining mining until you explain the concept of a shared ledger
750 2014-02-09 14:49:00 <Belxjander> petertodd: well I start with "barter" and explaining that
751 2014-02-09 14:49:07 <Belxjander> THEN connecting "cash" into the money model
752 2014-02-09 14:49:14 <alex_fun> petertodd: to me it seems btc is very simple as idea - what it does it creates longer number, then if u guess is lower than this number u win, then there are blocks where winner reward is recorded along with params he used, then its sha and sha again aka encrypted, then it gives block hash aka its ID, next block got to use same params else hash wont fit?
753 2014-02-09 14:49:15 <alex_fun> and so on
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757 2014-02-09 14:49:30 <alex_fun> and target goes lower and lower
758 2014-02-09 14:49:31 <alex_fun> so thats it
759 2014-02-09 14:49:38 <petertodd> Belxjander: right, you're approach is economics driven - I usually talk to bitcoin to people who already understand barter and how modern currencies work
760 2014-02-09 14:49:41 <Belxjander> then explaining about how "cash" and "bitcoins" have some similarities and other points of note are more like "barter" value
761 2014-02-09 14:49:48 <alex_fun> POW prize to reward to chain supprters
762 2014-02-09 14:50:06 <Belxjander> petertodd: I have to explain it this way as I explain it in English for Japanese Students (they don't know the economics terms initially)
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764 2014-02-09 14:50:12 <alex_fun> petertodd: so in your view what is say modern fiat and btc similarity? :D
765 2014-02-09 14:50:33 <alex_fun> say usd and btc similarity as currency
766 2014-02-09 14:50:42 <Belxjander> petertodd: it does give them a good idea of what I am discussing and some really interesting questions and "what if"s have come up too
767 2014-02-09 14:50:52 <petertodd> Belxjander: e.g. at my last job, I explained bitcoin to our accountances/controllers, all strong economic/finance backgrounds, and they could already see some of the social implications from the way mining works and so on - by presenting the tech details correctly they understood the gist of it pretty well
768 2014-02-09 14:51:16 <petertodd> alex_fun: of course it is, bitcoin *is* a fiat currency; fiat of the masses in a sense
769 2014-02-09 14:51:50 <alex_fun> petertodd: is bitcoin or say any satoshi paper based coin is holder of value and if yes how?
770 2014-02-09 14:51:51 <alex_fun> ;)
771 2014-02-09 14:52:22 <Apocalyptic> that sentence doesn't make any sense
772 2014-02-09 14:52:23 <petertodd> alex_fun: http://www.theonion.com/articles/us-economy-grinds-to-halt-as-nation-realizes-money,2912/
773 2014-02-09 14:52:31 <alex_fun> petertodd: u answer pls
774 2014-02-09 14:52:41 <alex_fun> if I want to read some site i sure do :D
775 2014-02-09 14:52:47 <alex_fun> I am talking human 2 human
776 2014-02-09 14:52:48 <petertodd> alex_fun: what is or isn't value is OT for -dev
777 2014-02-09 14:53:01 <alex_fun> ok cool
778 2014-02-09 14:53:07 <alex_fun> if it so for u so be be it :D
779 2014-02-09 14:54:13 <alex_fun> petertodd: what do you think about idea to make consensus based checkpoints to nullify double spending?
780 2014-02-09 14:54:40 <petertodd> alex_fun: we have those already
781 2014-02-09 14:54:48 <alex_fun> <petertodd> Belxjander: e.g. at my last job, I explained bitcoin to our accountances/controllers, all strong economic/finance backgrounds, and they could already see some of the social implications - social implication in dev - o my :P
782 2014-02-09 14:54:53 <alex_fun> petertodd: how come?
783 2014-02-09 14:55:03 <alex_fun> they just set in git
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785 2014-02-09 14:55:14 <petertodd> alex_fun: simple, consensus==proof-of-work, and double-spending is solved by not being present in the blockchain
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787 2014-02-09 14:55:32 <petertodd> alex_fun: your describing the problem bitcoin solves in the first place
788 2014-02-09 14:55:46 <alex_fun> petertodd: any large pool with say 40% can easily double spend
789 2014-02-09 14:55:50 <alex_fun> and its been done already
790 2014-02-09 14:55:55 <Apocalyptic> sigh
791 2014-02-09 14:56:15 <alex_fun> I am talking in practical code terms
792 2014-02-09 14:56:41 <petertodd> alex_fun: so am I, the practical solution is to accept that a transaction that is not in a block doesn't exist yet
793 2014-02-09 14:56:43 <alex_fun> consesus atm is longest chain
794 2014-02-09 14:56:56 <alex_fun> no matter if benevolent or not
795 2014-02-09 14:57:37 <alex_fun> petertodd: yes what u said is correct and logical
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797 2014-02-09 14:58:18 <alex_fun> petertodd: as when chain can double spend by virtue of its size there is nothing u can do
798 2014-02-09 14:58:43 <alex_fun> as u cant see it when it does not exist lol
799 2014-02-09 14:58:45 <alex_fun> bingo!
800 2014-02-09 14:59:15 <alex_fun> so - solution is to use like 120 confirms for like tickets like when I sell say house for 600,000 usd?
801 2014-02-09 14:59:23 <alex_fun> *for large tickets
802 2014-02-09 14:59:24 <petertodd> alex_fun: yup
803 2014-02-09 15:00:49 <petertodd> (assuming you're selling a house in a crypto wasteland populated by roving gangs of leather wearing cryptographers untarnished by the rule of law)
804 2014-02-09 15:01:10 <petertodd> (if not, you could try just getting their ID and going to the police if they double-spend you)
805 2014-02-09 15:01:27 <alex_fun> lol I met some last night - pretty cool people btw :D
806 2014-02-09 15:02:44 <petertodd> anyway, work to do, later
807 2014-02-09 15:03:03 <alex_fun> ty dude :D
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811 2014-02-09 15:09:02 <alex_fun> ty :)
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818 2014-02-09 15:14:30 <gammons> Hi, I had a general question. For the current block, as transactions get added to it, do miners take into account new transactions as they come in?
819 2014-02-09 15:15:00 <sipa> define "the current block" ?
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821 2014-02-09 15:15:40 <sipa> miners do update their candidate blocks they're mining on from time to time with new transactions, yes
822 2014-02-09 15:16:10 <gammons> Yeah, i guess I meant the current transactions not in a block yet
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862 2014-02-09 15:49:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gammons: They may, and usually do
863 2014-02-09 15:49:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Often not for every single new transaction that comes in, but periodically
864 2014-02-09 15:50:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, this is "may" and not "must" -- it's certainly possible to just ignore any new transactions since you started hashing your block
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866 2014-02-09 15:50:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, s/he left...
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869 2014-02-09 15:50:47 <sipa> and came back
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871 2014-02-09 15:51:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|indeed.
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909 2014-02-09 16:22:08 <chichov> how come the OP_CHECKSIG procedure includes the subscript (with the destination address) in the ScriptSig field, if it is already there in the outputs?
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912 2014-02-09 16:22:49 <azariah4> Hi, question about bip-0070: it specifies that the Bitcoin client (of the customer) broadcasts transactions on the network before sending the Payment message to the merchant
913 2014-02-09 16:23:14 <chichov> I know that "this is how OP_CHECKSIG works", but why would we copy the PubKeyScript basically into another field if it is already included in the signature?
914 2014-02-09 16:23:15 <azariah4> However, then it says that the merchant also broadcasts these onto the bitcoin network?
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916 2014-02-09 16:23:39 <azariah4> (when it receives the Payment message)
917 2014-02-09 16:23:42 <sipa> chichov: checksig needs to have the full public key
918 2014-02-09 16:24:00 <sipa> azariah4: there's no dispute about that
919 2014-02-09 16:24:12 <sipa> chichov: the previous output only has the address
920 2014-02-09 16:24:41 <sipa> so to spend it you provide both the pubkey and the signature, and the pubkey's hash has to be the address, and the signature must be valid for that public key
921 2014-02-09 16:25:00 <chichov> I believe I've misformulated myself
922 2014-02-09 16:25:06 <chichov> let me try again
923 2014-02-09 16:25:07 <azariah4> sipa: OK, so its broadcasted by both the customer and the merchant? What's the added value of having the merchant broadcast the txs again?
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925 2014-02-09 16:25:52 <chichov> when we build the signature for a transaction we have to provide a signature for all outputs we intend to use
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927 2014-02-09 16:26:11 <sipa> azariah4: (my personal opinion) the sender should only care about getting his payment to the receiver, his concern is getting his transaction accepted by them
928 2014-02-09 16:26:38 <sipa> azariah4: the receiver is the one who cares about getting the transaction confirmed, as it is necessary to spend it again
929 2014-02-09 16:27:08 <sipa> azariah4: by having the receiver take responsibility of the broadcast, the sender doesn't have to sty online and rebroadcast
930 2014-02-09 16:27:24 <chichov> now, since we are signing the complete transaction and this would include ScriptSig itself, we could leave it blank (for all inputs), serialize the transaction and then build a signature over that
931 2014-02-09 16:27:40 <azariah4> sipa: ah, makes sense, thanks!
932 2014-02-09 16:27:52 <chichov> that we'd basically do for all the inputs
933 2014-02-09 16:28:05 <sipa> chichov: that's more or less what happens
934 2014-02-09 16:28:41 <chichov> but why is it that we put a slightly processed ScriptPubKey into the ScriptSig field?
935 2014-02-09 16:28:49 <sipa> chichov: ask satoshi
936 2014-02-09 16:28:56 <chichov> see https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png
937 2014-02-09 16:28:57 <sipa> afaik, there is no good reason for it
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939 2014-02-09 16:29:17 <chichov> yea, it seems very odd to me
940 2014-02-09 16:29:34 <sipa> we already commit to the entire previous transaction being spent, by including its hash
941 2014-02-09 16:29:46 <sipa> there should be no need to put the output script being spent again in there
942 2014-02-09 16:30:07 <chichov> nevertheless it seems that this is being done
943 2014-02-09 16:30:15 <sipa> my guess is that it seemed "neat"
944 2014-02-09 16:30:19 <sipa> and couldn't hurt
945 2014-02-09 16:30:30 <sipa> and satoshi liked belt-and-suspenders
946 2014-02-09 16:30:41 <chichov> absolutely :D
947 2014-02-09 16:31:15 <chichov> now in that graphic I've provided it also says at the very end that the signature check is done for all inputs and the associated output
948 2014-02-09 16:31:34 <chichov> that'd mean that for 2 outputs this is done 2*#Inputs?
949 2014-02-09 16:31:52 <petertodd> sipa: note how it does mean you don't need to provide the transaction itself to prove what address is being signed for
950 2014-02-09 16:32:12 <petertodd> sipa: if he had added the txout value to that, we'd be golden...
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953 2014-02-09 16:32:58 <wallet42> i have a question about this OP_RETURN and OP_DROP. afaiu a tx can have 1 OP_DROP only, if it can be vout 0 but if it is not, the bitcoins are destroyed since unspendable, you can add a 80 bytes arbitrary string after it
954 2014-02-09 16:32:59 <chichov> that'd also be a bit odd as it should be sufficient to only verify all inputs and not iterate everything over all outputs one more time
955 2014-02-09 16:33:13 <petertodd> wallet42: OP_DROP isn't standard
956 2014-02-09 16:33:56 <petertodd> chichov: the point is to be able to verify what is being signed compactly, without needing large proofs (e.g. on a trezor)
957 2014-02-09 16:34:36 <sipa> petertodd: good point
958 2014-02-09 16:34:47 <petertodd> wallet42: as for op_return, yes, one op-ret per tx, and it can be in any position. (which frankly is dumb: just makes people who need more data use other mechanisms)
959 2014-02-09 16:34:48 <sipa> petertodd: though i'm not sure there are cases where you really care
960 2014-02-09 16:35:02 <sipa> petertodd: as signer, you already need to know which inputs and their address you are consuming
961 2014-02-09 16:35:18 <wallet42> okay so waht is OP_RETURN?
962 2014-02-09 16:35:19 <sipa> petertodd: and if the one building the (unsigned) transaction for you lies, the result is invalid anyway
963 2014-02-09 16:35:20 <petertodd> sipa: not necessarily, again, think of the trezor
964 2014-02-09 16:35:39 Imbue_ has joined
965 2014-02-09 16:35:55 <sipa> petertodd: which isn't true for the amounts... someone can trick you into dumping your coins into fees
966 2014-02-09 16:36:28 <petertodd> sipa: it's plausible that you could be fooled into signing for a txout whose scriptPubKey was something different, but is still spendable, remember how sighash flags are useful in conjunction with CHECKMULTISIG
967 2014-02-09 16:36:42 <sipa> yeah, sighash flags may complicate matters
968 2014-02-09 16:37:13 <petertodd> wallet42: basically a txout is allowed to have a scriptPubKey in the form OP_RETURN, OP_RETURN <0 to 80 byte pushdata>, and by accident OP_RETURN <some other opcode>
969 2014-02-09 16:37:16 <chichov> petertodd: what do you precisely mean with that?
970 2014-02-09 16:37:28 <petertodd> chichov: by what?
971 2014-02-09 16:37:34 <wallet42> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2738
972 2014-02-09 16:37:42 <wallet42> so OP_RETURN is standard?
973 2014-02-09 16:37:51 <sipa> it will be
974 2014-02-09 16:37:51 <wallet42> with 80 bytes?
975 2014-02-09 16:37:57 <petertodd> wallet42: yup and BTC Guild are mining them
976 2014-02-09 16:38:12 <wallet42> and the output is spendable?
977 2014-02-09 16:38:15 <petertodd> wallet42: (and eligius, but they mine all sorts of stuff)
978 2014-02-09 16:38:26 <wallet42> or does the bitcoins are lost?
979 2014-02-09 16:38:33 <petertodd> wallet42: no, not spendable
980 2014-02-09 16:38:44 <petertodd> wallet42: op_return == fail the script immediately
981 2014-02-09 16:38:53 <sipa> you use a 0.00000000 BTC output for OP_RETURN
982 2014-02-09 16:39:05 <petertodd> sipa: well, you can use it to sacrifice btc too
983 2014-02-09 16:39:08 <sipa> sure
984 2014-02-09 16:39:19 <chichov> petertodd: the part about proofs. My question was why would we check the signatures for all inputs and(!) for all outputs?
985 2014-02-09 16:39:32 <petertodd> chichov: you're mistaken
986 2014-02-09 16:39:43 <sipa> chichov: there is just one signature for every input
987 2014-02-09 16:39:46 <petertodd> chichov: by txout I mean the txout being spent
988 2014-02-09 16:39:49 <sipa> there is no validation of outputs
989 2014-02-09 16:40:00 <petertodd> sipa: one scriptSig, there can be multiple signatures evaluated in that scriptSig
990 2014-02-09 16:40:02 <sipa> the scriptPubKey of outputs is basically a byte array
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992 2014-02-09 16:40:04 <wallet42> okay. 1 OP_RETURN per tx, not in txoutset since always unspendable, can be vout 0, if not, bitcoins are gone ? correct?
993 2014-02-09 16:40:12 <petertodd> wallet42: correct
994 2014-02-09 16:40:49 <petertodd> incidentally, I realized the other day that being able to have multiple bare OP_RETURN outputs in a tx could be useful with SIGHASH_SINGLE
995 2014-02-09 16:40:49 Tray_ has joined
996 2014-02-09 16:40:50 <wallet42> is a the minfee mandatory?
997 2014-02-09 16:41:05 <petertodd> wallet42: dunno, use the source luke
998 2014-02-09 16:41:09 <wallet42> kk
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1000 2014-02-09 16:41:14 <chichov> petertodd: have I maybe misread https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png (see last line)? It seems natural to verify all inputs in order to verify that you indeed own all the inputs, but it does say "Repeat all steps for each TxIn object and associated TxOut"
1001 2014-02-09 16:41:35 <chichov> which I read: For all outputs do{ For all inputs do{} }
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1003 2014-02-09 16:41:50 <wallet42> so i still dont get what is the issue with OP_RETURN vs OP_DROP ?
1004 2014-02-09 16:41:52 <sipa> chichov: by assosicated TxOut, it refers the prevouts being spent
1005 2014-02-09 16:42:03 <sipa> wallet42: OP_RETURN doesn't end up in the UTXO set
1006 2014-02-09 16:42:10 <sipa> wallet42: so it doesn't clutter everyone's database
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1008 2014-02-09 16:42:18 <wallet42> yes this is what i get
1009 2014-02-09 16:42:19 <chichov> sipa: oh, then it makes sense.
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1012 2014-02-09 16:42:27 <wallet42> so why would anyone want to have OP_DROP then?
1013 2014-02-09 16:42:33 <chichov> sipa: thanks
1014 2014-02-09 16:42:52 <sipa> wallet42: for some odd reason, people like to think of bitcoin as a communication channel
1015 2014-02-09 16:42:54 <wallet42> if OP_RETURN fullfils the issue
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1018 2014-02-09 16:43:16 <sipa> OP_RETURN doesn't work for data associated with a particular output
1019 2014-02-09 16:43:27 <sipa> if its needs to survive coinjoin & co
1020 2014-02-09 16:43:44 <petertodd> sipa: well, op_return can go in any location, but yeah, not as easy to use as op_drop in that regard
1021 2014-02-09 16:43:54 <wallet42> oh.. so op_drop whould be data per Spendable output?
1022 2014-02-09 16:44:19 <sipa> yeah, but it's uglier
1023 2014-02-09 16:44:22 <wallet42> now i get it....
1024 2014-02-09 16:44:30 <sipa> as it cannot be separated from the actually necessary data
1025 2014-02-09 16:45:29 <wallet42> sure⦠the script would be ugly since in some databases it is stored AS IS and in some, OP_DROP is left out
1026 2014-02-09 16:45:31 <petertodd> sipa: people like to think of bitcoin as a communication channel because its the only one you have where the message arrives atomically with the payment; why stealth addresses uses it as the com channel
1027 2014-02-09 16:45:47 <petertodd> wallet42: we mean ugly as in scalability concerns
1028 2014-02-09 16:45:58 <sipa> petertodd: yeah
1029 2014-02-09 16:46:15 <wallet42> kk
1030 2014-02-09 16:46:28 <wallet42> thx for the clarification :)
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1035 2014-02-09 16:48:44 <Luke-Jr> DrHaribo: ping
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1049 2014-02-09 17:12:38 <azariah4> What reference implementations exists for the merchant side of BIP70?
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1077 2014-02-09 17:41:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|18:26:08 <sipa> azariah4: (my personal opinion) the sender should only care about getting his payment to the receiver, his concern is getting his transaction accepted by them \n 18:26:35 <sipa> azariah4: the receiver is the one who cares about getting the transaction confirmed, as it is necessary to spend it again
1078 2014-02-09 17:41:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Change.
1079 2014-02-09 17:41:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|18:38:12 <petertodd> wallet42: (and eligius, but they mine all sorts of stuff)
1080 2014-02-09 17:41:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: Uh, I'm pretty sure Luke said that Eligius does *not* mine OP_RETURN transacctions, because they're spam
1081 2014-02-09 17:43:09 <jbitcm-> hello
1082 2014-02-09 17:43:20 <jbitcm-> i want to help to develop
1083 2014-02-09 17:43:38 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: he does, just look at the ones that have been mined recently
1084 2014-02-09 17:43:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: Oh, did that change?
1085 2014-02-09 17:43:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|er
1086 2014-02-09 17:43:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;seen Luke-Jr
1087 2014-02-09 17:43:54 <gribble> Luke-Jr was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 55 minutes and 9 seconds ago: <Luke-Jr> DrHaribo: ping
1088 2014-02-09 17:44:39 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: sure, but if you're payment someone, they have a very good incentive already to broadcast
1089 2014-02-09 17:44:58 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: it's probably to strong to say remove the responsibility, as the sender still has to create something that is confirmable
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1091 2014-02-09 17:48:18 <Luke-Jr> not sure the current state, but when I get to updating Eligius's bitcoind, blocking OP_RETURN spam is on the todo list
1092 2014-02-09 17:49:36 NormDePloome has joined
1093 2014-02-09 17:50:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: Did something recently change about your setup?
1094 2014-02-09 17:50:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I know you have, in the past, stated that you don't mine OP_RETURN transactions
1095 2014-02-09 17:50:32 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: if I'm wrong on that, it's a bug âº
1096 2014-02-09 17:50:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Was that just an "I'm not willing to"?
1097 2014-02-09 17:50:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Not an actual "We're not"?
1098 2014-02-09 17:51:01 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: I *thought* they were being filtered, but I may be wrong
1099 2014-02-09 17:51:32 <Luke-Jr> DrHaribo: when you get a chance, get Nasser's contact info from me; he would like to discuss BitMinter client support for Monarch
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1106 2014-02-09 17:58:03 <jcorgan> sipa: do you plan to revive the addrindex branch?
1107 2014-02-09 17:58:13 <sipa> no
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1109 2014-02-09 17:58:31 <sipa> at least not in the near future
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1122 2014-02-09 18:06:20 <jcorgan> do you think the feature is at least worthwhile to have?
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1126 2014-02-09 18:10:42 <sipa> jcorgan: for debugging or having something like a local built-in blockexplorer, yes
1127 2014-02-09 18:11:05 <sipa> jcorgan: but ny fear is people building features on top of it that assumes it being possible
1128 2014-02-09 18:11:20 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: heh, you're gonna love my decentralized p2p exchange with honest pricing proposal...
1129 2014-02-09 18:11:32 <sipa> making it harder to move to an ecosysyem where people generally don't have the blockchain available
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1133 2014-02-09 18:12:44 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: ?
1134 2014-02-09 18:12:52 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: posted to the -dev list
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1141 2014-02-09 18:20:29 <deaconboogie> Is it uncouth to ask an altcoin dev question in this channel?
1142 2014-02-09 18:20:46 <petertodd> ;;seen Luke-Jr
1143 2014-02-09 18:20:46 <gribble> Luke-Jr was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 8 minutes and 2 seconds ago: <Luke-Jr> petertodd: ?
1144 2014-02-09 18:20:52 <petertodd> deaconboogie: ^
1145 2014-02-09 18:21:28 <deaconboogie> ... ?
1146 2014-02-09 18:21:49 <petertodd> deaconboogie: Luke-Jr thinks altcoins are a scam, and will tell you it's uncouth
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1150 2014-02-09 18:23:55 <deaconboogie> Well, then I guess I'll fire away... ? I upgraded my alt from 0.6.2 to 0.8.6 and on launch it barks about the genesis block being invalid, even though - to the best of my knowledge - I've copied everything over exactly: pchMessageStart, ECDSA key, main and test net genesis blocks, merkelroots, nNonce, etc. There must be something that I've missed...
1151 2014-02-09 18:24:01 <andytoshi> i think asking altcoin dev questions is uncouth because the altcoin devs can't program
1152 2014-02-09 18:24:19 <deaconboogie> andytoshi: I wouldn't disagree.
1153 2014-02-09 18:24:38 <petertodd> deaconboogie: answering that question would be like answering a homework problem :P
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1155 2014-02-09 18:25:12 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: it has nothing to do with me, altcoins are off-topic in #bitocin*
1156 2014-02-09 18:25:12 <deaconboogie> Remedial math or advanced calculus?
1157 2014-02-09 18:25:53 <Luke-Jr> deaconboogie: what you've missed (well, one thing) is that Bitcoin is not compatible with 0.6.2 anymore.
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1159 2014-02-09 18:26:09 <deaconboogie> Luke-Jr: This is why I am upgrading it to 0.8.6.2
1160 2014-02-09 18:26:12 <petertodd> deaconboogie: somewhere in between
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1163 2014-02-09 18:26:49 <Luke-Jr> deaconboogie: you can't just "upgrade" a 0.6.2-based alt to 0.8.6
1164 2014-02-09 18:26:59 <Luke-Jr> you would need to do a hardfork procedure on the network
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1166 2014-02-09 18:27:08 <Luke-Jr> but again, this is all off-topic here
1167 2014-02-09 18:27:18 <Luke-Jr> #cryptodev IIRC is the place
1168 2014-02-09 18:27:51 <deaconboogie> Luke-Jr: Hardfork is expected at block 27000 when Kimoto Gravity Well goes into effect... But I'll try that other channel, nobody has suggested it before! Thank you!
1169 2014-02-09 18:27:54 <jcorgan> sipa: i recall a similar line of thought in the pull request.
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1171 2014-02-09 18:28:08 <Luke-Jr> Kimoto Gravity Well O.o?
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1173 2014-02-09 18:28:40 <jcorgan> i indeed am looking at something like a local blockexplorer
1174 2014-02-09 18:28:57 <deaconboogie> Luke-Jr: A difficulty scaling algo to protect against auto-switching pools raping the coin.
1175 2014-02-09 18:29:54 <warren> Luke-Jr: per-block difficulty adjustment I think
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1177 2014-02-09 18:30:03 <deaconboogie> Luke-Jr: What warren said.
1178 2014-02-09 18:30:04 <Luke-Jr> i c
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1180 2014-02-09 18:30:26 <warren> Luke-Jr: I wonder to what extent it's vulnerable to time travel attacks
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1182 2014-02-09 18:30:47 <warren> Luke-Jr: it would mean you need less than 51% to replace the chain, I think
1183 2014-02-09 18:30:48 <jcorgan> the branch doesn't merge cleanly with master right now due to conflicting changes in the leveldb code, but I can backtrack the merge until it goes cleanly and replay from there
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1243 2014-02-09 19:08:20 <sipa> for anyone wondering what secp256k1 looks like: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/21907/what-does-the-curve-used-in-bitcoin-secp256k1-look-like/21911#21911
1244 2014-02-09 19:09:46 Charlie has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1246 2014-02-09 19:10:18 <jcorgan> it's full of stars!
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1250 2014-02-09 19:11:39 <jakov> what if you dont plot it in a finite field
1251 2014-02-09 19:11:44 <jakov> but just a cartesian
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1282 2014-02-09 19:42:06 <sipa> jakov: added
1283 2014-02-09 19:42:46 <jakov> looks like you need to zoom out there
1284 2014-02-09 19:43:08 <jakov> not from -128 to 128 but within the characteristic scale of that curve
1285 2014-02-09 19:43:20 <jakov> i dont know if thats possible btw, i know little about EC
1286 2014-02-09 19:44:10 <sipa> no idea what you mean
1287 2014-02-09 19:44:15 <sipa> the first plot is accurate
1288 2014-02-09 19:44:22 <sipa> the second is just to give an impression
1289 2014-02-09 19:44:52 <jakov> the second looks like you zoomed in too much
1290 2014-02-09 19:45:02 <jakov> so like
1291 2014-02-09 19:45:32 <jakov> where do the numbers -128 and 128 come from?
1292 2014-02-09 19:45:56 Tray_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1293 2014-02-09 19:46:02 <jakov> its as if you're looking at a circle of radius 10, but on a graph that goes from -0.01 to 0.01
1294 2014-02-09 19:46:08 <andytoshi> jakov: they give a range of 2^8+1, which is the size of the field
1295 2014-02-09 19:46:11 <andytoshi> jakov: no, it's not like that at all
1296 2014-02-09 19:46:21 <jakov> okay then
1297 2014-02-09 19:46:45 aynstein has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1298 2014-02-09 19:47:22 <andytoshi> this is a cool plot sipa, i have wondered this question myself
1299 2014-02-09 19:47:32 <andytoshi> and the answer is exactly as unenlightening as i expected :)
1300 2014-02-09 19:48:27 <jakov> yeah cool plot
1301 2014-02-09 19:48:27 <sipa> the first plot plots the entire coordinate space
1302 2014-02-09 19:48:41 <andytoshi> oh, sorry, i see what you're saying jakov
1303 2014-02-09 19:49:08 thermoman has joined
1304 2014-02-09 19:49:19 <andytoshi> usually elliptic curve plots look kinda like o<
1305 2014-02-09 19:50:19 aynstein has joined
1306 2014-02-09 19:51:22 <sipa> if you zoom in on the real plot, that's what you get
1307 2014-02-09 19:51:45 <sipa> the nearest-pixel rounding makes it look a bit differently
1308 2014-02-09 19:52:03 <andytoshi> yeah, i see it now, jakov you can do the real-number plot in any graphic calculator, eg kmplot
1309 2014-02-09 19:52:15 <jcorgan> andytoshi: EC plots only look like o< when you are calculating them over the reals
1310 2014-02-09 19:52:26 <sipa> yeah, of course
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1312 2014-02-09 19:52:47 <andytoshi> jcorgan: yeah, i know. you are misreading my comment the same as i misread jakov's :P
1313 2014-02-09 19:52:52 <jcorgan> lol
1314 2014-02-09 19:53:18 <andytoshi> we agree on the finite field plot, there is just suspicion that sipa cut off the 'o' part of the real plot. but in fact there is no such o.
1315 2014-02-09 19:53:35 <andytoshi> so all is well, sipa is right
1316 2014-02-09 19:53:42 <sipa> \o/
1317 2014-02-09 19:53:50 <jakov> without the o that means there are never 3 points that lie on a straight line (?)
1318 2014-02-09 19:54:01 rm_ has joined
1319 2014-02-09 19:54:35 <andytoshi> jakov: there are, in the complex plane.
1320 2014-02-09 19:54:45 <jakov> doh
1321 2014-02-09 19:55:10 <sipa> we must go deeper
1322 2014-02-09 19:55:17 <sipa> andytoshi: wanna make a quaternion plot?
1323 2014-02-09 19:56:21 <sipa> jakov: every line that intersects the curve in 2 points, intersects it in a third
1324 2014-02-09 19:56:24 <andytoshi> lol, that'd be really cool
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1327 2014-02-09 19:56:38 <andytoshi> i'd need by 16D glasses
1328 2014-02-09 19:56:39 <sipa> jakov: no need for the o for that
1329 2014-02-09 19:56:39 <jcorgan> it is sort of mind blowing that ECs retain their group structure over the cartesian plane, over the integers, and over finite fields
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1332 2014-02-09 19:56:56 <sipa> jcorgan: actually, they don't over integers
1333 2014-02-09 19:57:02 <jcorgan> oO
1334 2014-02-09 19:57:12 is now known as Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Guest79633
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1337 2014-02-09 19:57:12 Clown is now known as |Clown|
1338 2014-02-09 19:57:18 <sipa> jcorgan: i think
1339 2014-02-09 19:57:31 <sipa> they do over reals and over finite fields
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1342 2014-02-09 19:59:13 <jakov> when i plot it on kmplot it looks different to your plot on the stackexchange thread
1343 2014-02-09 19:59:19 <jakov> it has an o
1344 2014-02-09 19:59:24 <jcorgan> well, i'm no expert, just been deep-diving and refamiliarizing myself with this stuff for a few months after not thinking about it for a decade or so
1345 2014-02-09 19:59:29 <jakov> y^2 = x^3 + 7 right?
1346 2014-02-09 19:59:33 <sipa> yes
1347 2014-02-09 19:59:53 * sipa install kmplot
1348 2014-02-09 19:59:58 <jakov> maybe the one you plotted was y^2 = x^3
1349 2014-02-09 20:00:01 <andytoshi> jakov: my copy of kmplot agrees with sipa
1350 2014-02-09 20:01:04 buhbuh has joined
1351 2014-02-09 20:01:22 <andytoshi> http://download.wpsoftware.net/screenshot.png
1352 2014-02-09 20:01:27 <jakov> sec, ill upload mine too
1353 2014-02-09 20:01:40 <jakov> wait no, we're agreeing
1354 2014-02-09 20:01:59 <jakov> oh hold on, sipa's does have an o
1355 2014-02-09 20:02:00 <jcorgan> i don't get an "O"; the plots intersect the y-axis with slope zero due to the 'a' coefficient being zero
1356 2014-02-09 20:02:21 <jakov> its just small since the o has a length scale about 2.5
1357 2014-02-09 20:02:27 <jakov> which looks small on a 128 scale graph
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1360 2014-02-09 20:04:05 <jakov> fwiw http://imgur.com/ZDlSU7W
1361 2014-02-09 20:04:56 <jcorgan> jakov: mine agrees with your blue line
1362 2014-02-09 20:05:06 <jakov> yeah the blue line is + 7
1363 2014-02-09 20:05:15 <jakov> green line is without + 7
1364 2014-02-09 20:05:24 BB-Martino has joined
1365 2014-02-09 20:05:51 <jakov> wait a sec, andytoshi's plot crosses y axis at +- 2 while mine seems to cross around 2.5
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1368 2014-02-09 20:06:27 <jcorgan> sqrt(7) = 2.645...
1369 2014-02-09 20:06:34 yubrew has joined
1370 2014-02-09 20:06:40 <BB-Martino> Hi guys. I need general advice or guess what could have happened. Two users withdrew coins from my site with a ~10 seconds difference, the second one ended up being a double spend. I only use sendmany in bitcoind...
1371 2014-02-09 20:06:41 <andytoshi> jakov: luckily you can plug in x=0 and do that one by hand..and you get jcorgan's
1372 2014-02-09 20:06:52 <andytoshi> yeah, weird. mine is clearly at 2.645. but in the screenshot it has moved o.O
1373 2014-02-09 20:06:57 <jakov> yes
1374 2014-02-09 20:07:30 <andytoshi> oh, i see, i have a - after the 7 in the sshot, which apparently means "7-3" to kmplot. i think that's a bug..
1375 2014-02-09 20:08:02 <sipa> jakov: added a zoomed-in version
1376 2014-02-09 20:08:06 disident has quit (Quit: disident)
1377 2014-02-09 20:08:16 <jakov> nice
1378 2014-02-09 20:08:28 <jakov> however im gonna stop talking since im interested to see what happened to BB-Martino
1379 2014-02-09 20:08:33 <sipa> ?
1380 2014-02-09 20:09:14 go1111111 has joined
1381 2014-02-09 20:09:47 <BB-Martino> Thanks, but that's all I got.
1382 2014-02-09 20:09:58 <BB-Martino> https://blockchain.info/tx/6b557c5dfa22874328fa42c80c6d1b1490329aefdd18479149efcfff759ee30a
1383 2014-02-09 20:10:14 <BB-Martino> simple web wallet, been running since xmas 2012, first time i see something like this
1384 2014-02-09 20:11:09 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1385 2014-02-09 20:11:09 <sipa> bitcoind created a double spend of its own?
1386 2014-02-09 20:11:18 <BB-Martino> the input addy is probably a change address, it's not any user's deposit address at least. plus we don't confirm coins below 3 confirmations
1387 2014-02-09 20:11:20 <sipa> no restart in between, no crash, no raw transaction API?
1388 2014-02-09 20:11:37 <BB-Martino> nop. there was a crash like maybe 2-3 weeks ago.
1389 2014-02-09 20:11:59 <BB-Martino> i had to restore from a backup wallet.dat from a few hours earlier
1390 2014-02-09 20:12:07 <BB-Martino> could that have led to this just now?
1391 2014-02-09 20:12:42 <BB-Martino> (i mean restored it weeks ago, from an back a few hours prior to the crash)
1392 2014-02-09 20:12:46 <BB-Martino> *a
1393 2014-02-09 20:12:55 <BB-Martino> *backup. (jeez).
1394 2014-02-09 20:13:18 caktux has joined
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1396 2014-02-09 20:13:39 <sipa> it's not really a double spend
1397 2014-02-09 20:13:49 <sipa> looks just like a case of malleability
1398 2014-02-09 20:14:04 <sipa> where a transaction is modified by someone else, and the modified version gets accepted
1399 2014-02-09 20:14:20 circ-user-uiKBG has joined
1400 2014-02-09 20:14:21 <BB-Martino> umm?!
1401 2014-02-09 20:14:34 <jakov> there is data in tx that isnt covered by the digital signature? TIL
1402 2014-02-09 20:14:44 <sipa> jakov: yes! the signature itself!
1403 2014-02-09 20:15:01 <jakov> but if you change that it still wont verify
1404 2014-02-09 20:15:16 <jakov> i know its not deterministic sometimes but you need the private keys to make another sig
1405 2014-02-09 20:15:19 <sipa> there are several ways in which signatures can be modified without invalidating the result
1406 2014-02-09 20:15:28 <sipa> some are inherent to ECDSA
1407 2014-02-09 20:15:28 <jakov> ok then
1408 2014-02-09 20:15:37 <sipa> some are oversights in bitcoin's script design
1409 2014-02-09 20:16:10 <BB-Martino> ok so
1410 2014-02-09 20:16:23 Charlie has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1411 2014-02-09 20:16:38 <sipa> in any case, this modified version was not made by bitcoind
1412 2014-02-09 20:16:44 <jakov> so theres a node out there that modifies tx
1413 2014-02-09 20:16:49 <_alp_> Would a potential solution have been to not include signatures in the tx hash?
1414 2014-02-09 20:16:50 <jakov> for a laugh presumably
1415 2014-02-09 20:16:59 <sipa> _alp_: yes, but it's not that simple
1416 2014-02-09 20:17:01 <BB-Martino> sipa: well both transactions were sent by bitcoind.
1417 2014-02-09 20:17:10 <sipa> BB-Martino: how do you know?
1418 2014-02-09 20:17:15 <BB-Martino> because it's my site
1419 2014-02-09 20:17:33 <sipa> i'd like a bit more elaborate answer :)
1420 2014-02-09 20:17:39 <_alp_> Malleability screws up a few use cases for me with unbroadcasted chained transactions, kind of annoying, didn't think it was happening much.
1421 2014-02-09 20:17:59 <andytoshi> _alp_: well, if there's incentive to do it then it will happen
1422 2014-02-09 20:18:02 <BB-Martino> a user came to me and reported this. users can't generate transactions, they can only provide an amount and an address, which gets passed to bitcoind which does a sendmany
1423 2014-02-09 20:18:23 <sipa> BB-Martino: so far, all expected
1424 2014-02-09 20:18:30 <sipa> still no proof that bitcoind generated both
1425 2014-02-09 20:18:39 <gmaxwell> 12:14 < sipa> where a transaction is modified by someone else, and the modified version gets accepted
1426 2014-02-09 20:18:47 <sipa> bitcoind generated one, someone else on the network modified it
1427 2014-02-09 20:18:55 <_alp_> andytoshi: you mean incentive to change signatures? Even lulz is sufficient motivation in some case.
1428 2014-02-09 20:18:57 <BB-Martino> oh, a node that I passed it to ?
1429 2014-02-09 20:19:05 <sipa> BB-Martino: anyone
1430 2014-02-09 20:19:16 <BB-Martino> someone can just invalidate a random transaction?
1431 2014-02-09 20:19:22 <sipa> not invalidate
1432 2014-02-09 20:19:25 <sipa> just modify
1433 2014-02-09 20:19:34 <BB-Martino> well it's not going to confirm ,is it
1434 2014-02-09 20:19:36 <andytoshi> _alp_: sure, that's why nodes might change transactions that pass by..but if you are doing weird things with chained transactions, the participants may have actualy incentive to break the chain
1435 2014-02-09 20:19:50 <sipa> BB-Martino: the modified one is confirmed, and has the exact same effect, for both sender and receiver
1436 2014-02-09 20:19:53 <jakov> hmm, this has implications for services that ask you to input the txid as proof you paid
1437 2014-02-09 20:20:10 <sipa> yes
1438 2014-02-09 20:20:20 <_alp_> andytoshi: sure, in many cases for my use case, anyone involved would be equally harmed if it was changed. Or there is only one participant to begin with.
1439 2014-02-09 20:20:27 <BB-Martino> this has implications, period. two users withdrew coins from my site, the second one ended up with the same TXID as the one 10 seconds before it. One person will not get their coins. I'd say this is a problem.
1440 2014-02-09 20:20:40 <sipa> BB-Martino: you are confused
1441 2014-02-09 20:20:47 <BB-Martino> that's entirely possible.
1442 2014-02-09 20:20:48 <jakov> why do they do that anyway? i can only think that it saves them running bitcoind and watching all transactions as they come
1443 2014-02-09 20:20:48 <_alp_> sipa: if I understand correctly, someone could just add junk on the end of a sigScript to do this? Since the script runs and completes, then anything left on the stack is irrelevant?
1444 2014-02-09 20:20:53 <BB-Martino> please elaborate
1445 2014-02-09 20:20:59 <sipa> _alp_: yes
1446 2014-02-09 20:21:10 <sipa> BB-Martino: there is no second user involved here
1447 2014-02-09 20:21:16 <sipa> BB-Martino: whatever is the problem with that is unrelated
1448 2014-02-09 20:21:28 JZavala has joined
1449 2014-02-09 20:21:36 <sipa> BB-Martino: here is a single user that requested a payout, and a modified version of that payout got accepted in the blockchain
1450 2014-02-09 20:21:45 <petertodd> _alp_: beginning of a scriptSig (or end with appropriate OP_DROP's)
1451 2014-02-09 20:21:48 <sipa> BB-Martino: you lost coins once, he received coins once
1452 2014-02-09 20:22:14 <sipa> BB-Martino: oh, unless the second transaction used change output from the first
1453 2014-02-09 20:22:21 <sipa> BB-Martino: in that case, it gets invalidated, indeed
1454 2014-02-09 20:22:27 <BB-Martino> sipa: no no.... ! Wait. User1 withdraws 0.05 BTC, TXID is 2c0a6fd98d085cd9ac5d0d0e86a33fc9defcdb926d6767f97494d8d8bf17053b. User 2 withdraws 0.12 BTC 12 seconds later, TXID is also 2c0a6fd98d085cd9ac5d0d0e86a33fc9defcdb926d6767f97494d8d8bf17053b
1455 2014-02-09 20:22:35 <BB-Martino> ...
1456 2014-02-09 20:22:39 <BB-Martino> one user won't get their coins.
1457 2014-02-09 20:22:44 <sipa> yes, send them again
1458 2014-02-09 20:23:07 <sipa> it's a known problem that little wallet software deals with corectly
1459 2014-02-09 20:23:21 <BB-Martino> :-(
1460 2014-02-09 20:23:25 <BB-Martino> thanks.
1461 2014-02-09 20:23:26 <jakov> BB-Martino they will, right? both addresses get the coins they asked for
1462 2014-02-09 20:23:37 <sipa> BB-Martino: you're not entirely correct, though
1463 2014-02-09 20:23:44 <sipa> BB-Martino: bitcoind will never spend the same coins twice
1464 2014-02-09 20:23:46 <jakov> from the blockchain.info link you showed us
1465 2014-02-09 20:23:51 <BB-Martino> jakov: definitely not. two transactions, 2 amounts, two addresses, 1 txid
1466 2014-02-09 20:24:19 <BB-Martino> jakov: oh wait, I hadn't noticed that
1467 2014-02-09 20:24:23 <warren> So uh....
1468 2014-02-09 20:24:23 caktux_ has joined
1469 2014-02-09 20:24:29 <BB-Martino> Now I get what you guys were telling me. Sorry for being slow.
1470 2014-02-09 20:24:42 <sipa> BB-Martino: here is my guess as what happened: user1 withdraws 0.05 BTC, bitcoind creates a transaction with output to User1 and back to you. User2 requests a payment 12 seconds later, which spends the output of the first transaction back to you
1471 2014-02-09 20:24:43 <warren> https://multibit.org/ Multibit is the recommended Bitcoin wallet. The GPG key is not signed by anyone.
1472 2014-02-09 20:24:47 caktux has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1473 2014-02-09 20:24:47 caktux_ is now known as caktux
1474 2014-02-09 20:24:48 <sipa> warren: wut?
1475 2014-02-09 20:24:50 <gmaxwell> bitcoin-qt avoids using unconfirmed change, if it can.
1476 2014-02-09 20:24:58 <warren> sipa: his key has no signatures afaict
1477 2014-02-09 20:25:12 <sipa> oh, not signed by anyone
1478 2014-02-09 20:25:15 <gmaxwell> warren: afaict no one can reproduce the built either.
1479 2014-02-09 20:25:17 <sipa> yeah, that's bad, bu
1480 2014-02-09 20:25:18 aynstein has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1481 2014-02-09 20:25:20 <gmaxwell> er build*
1482 2014-02-09 20:25:21 <warren> gmaxwell: yeah, that's bad.
1483 2014-02-09 20:25:35 <sipa> BB-Martino: however, a _modified_ version of the first transaction ends up in the blockchain
1484 2014-02-09 20:25:46 <warren> i'm trying to teach an intern good security practices and I fail at verifying the first thing I download.
1485 2014-02-09 20:25:50 <sipa> BB-Martino: which makes the second transaction invalid
1486 2014-02-09 20:25:58 aynstein has joined
1487 2014-02-09 20:26:28 <petertodd> warren: key C1972AED79F7C572? that has sigs, although it's not in the wot
1488 2014-02-09 20:26:51 <warren> petertodd: the key linked from multibit.org used to sign the release
1489 2014-02-09 20:27:24 <petertodd> warren: which key are you talking about?
1490 2014-02-09 20:27:32 aynstein has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1491 2014-02-09 20:27:35 <warren> Installers are signed with the PGP key 0x23F7FB7B (a subkey of 0x79F7C572)
1492 2014-02-09 20:27:49 <BB-Martino> Anyway, thanks for the help.
1493 2014-02-09 20:28:20 <petertodd> warren: right, like I said, the 64-bit fingerprint for me has signatures
1494 2014-02-09 20:28:27 <petertodd> warren: what full fingerprint do you see?
1495 2014-02-09 20:28:32 <petertodd> warren: someone might be playing games...
1496 2014-02-09 20:29:02 <petertodd> full fingerprint I see is: 299C 423C 672F 47F4 756A 6BA4 C197 2AED 79F7 C572
1497 2014-02-09 20:29:04 <warren> petertodd: multibit.org links to 32bit fingerprint on pgp.mit.edu
1498 2014-02-09 20:29:21 <warren> petertodd: this is just facepalm stuff
1499 2014-02-09 20:29:29 caktux has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1500 2014-02-09 20:29:29 <petertodd> warren: yeah, pgp.mit.edu shows sigs for me... click on the UID
1501 2014-02-09 20:29:33 <petertodd> warren: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0xC1972AED79F7C572
1502 2014-02-09 20:29:48 Imbue has joined
1503 2014-02-09 20:29:52 <warren> petertodd: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x23F7FB7B
1504 2014-02-09 20:30:00 <warren> that's the link from multibit.org
1505 2014-02-09 20:30:22 <petertodd> warren: yes, and I'm saying, click on the UID and you'll see the sigs
1506 2014-02-09 20:30:38 <petertodd> warren: unless somethign is very wrong
1507 2014-02-09 20:30:54 <warren> petertodd: i'm saying the website is fail
1508 2014-02-09 20:31:18 <warren> did someone generate a collision?
1509 2014-02-09 20:31:19 <petertodd> warren: right, you mean it should have the actual key?
1510 2014-02-09 20:31:25 <warren> petertodd: yeah
1511 2014-02-09 20:31:30 <petertodd> warren: 32-bit collission is pretty trivial...
1512 2014-02-09 20:31:30 <sipa> yeah, they should link to more than a 32-bit fingerprint, ok
1513 2014-02-09 20:31:33 <warren> petertodd: I know
1514 2014-02-09 20:31:37 <sipa> but the key seems real
1515 2014-02-09 20:31:42 <petertodd> warren: sorry, I thought you were saying something else
1516 2014-02-09 20:31:49 <gmaxwell> it only takes like a minute to generate a id collision, fwiw.
1517 2014-02-09 20:31:58 <gmaxwell> but I think the keyservers will return the older one now
1518 2014-02-09 20:32:03 <warren> ooh
1519 2014-02-09 20:32:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: you can do a 64-bit one with a few dollars worth of ec2 time via birthday fwiw
1520 2014-02-09 20:32:10 <jakov> the cryptolocker randomware asks people to submit a txid to prove they paid
1521 2014-02-09 20:32:23 <jakov> TIL you can change the txid by changing the signature and it might be accepted
1522 2014-02-09 20:32:30 <jakov> could that be a way to dos cryptolocker?
1523 2014-02-09 20:32:32 <sipa> yes
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1526 2014-02-09 20:35:11 <jakov> again, what possible reason could there be for that, i can only think they dont want to run bitcoind for some reason
1527 2014-02-09 20:35:18 <jakov> to auto watch all transactions
1528 2014-02-09 20:35:19 <petertodd> gmaxwell: nice timestamp use-case there...
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1531 2014-02-09 20:36:01 <petertodd> warren: the full fingerprint is at https://multibit.org/blog/2013/07/24/how-to-check-signatures.html too
1532 2014-02-09 20:36:19 <petertodd> warren: though totally misses out on how to actually verify the key with wot... sigh
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1538 2014-02-09 20:38:07 <warren> petertodd: gmaxwell: Mike Hearn says mbhd (whatever that is) will build against standard bitcoinj
1539 2014-02-09 20:38:21 <warren> I'm going to look at if its possible to gitian that later.
1540 2014-02-09 20:38:27 <petertodd> warren: please do
1541 2014-02-09 20:38:38 <warren> yeah, current situation makes me nervous
1542 2014-02-09 20:38:41 <petertodd> warren: incidentally, Freenet uses java, and they too could make use the gitian
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1547 2014-02-09 20:41:50 <gmaxwell> mbhd sounds like multibit-hd which might be a branch of multibit.
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1549 2014-02-09 20:43:52 <warren> yeah
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1556 2014-02-09 20:50:57 <chichov> is it just me or is 0xFD missing in the example tx message on wiki? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
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1558 2014-02-09 20:51:22 <petertodd> chichov: section 3.9?
1559 2014-02-09 20:51:35 <chichov> according to the VarInt spec the value is preceded by a type
1560 2014-02-09 20:51:40 <chichov> let me check
1561 2014-02-09 20:52:06 <chichov> it's in the raw dump - search for "Example tx message:"
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1563 2014-02-09 20:52:27 <chichov> when you take a look at the payload size you have "02 01 00 00"
1564 2014-02-09 20:52:51 <andytoshi> chichov: there is no type for values less than 254
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1566 2014-02-09 20:52:59 <chichov> the value is 258
1567 2014-02-09 20:53:15 <chichov> thus, there's supposed to be a 0xFD
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1569 2014-02-09 20:54:18 <chichov> or have I missed out on something totally obvious?
1570 2014-02-09 20:54:40 <andytoshi> chichov: under 'Message Structure' it shows the length being a flat 32 bits
1571 2014-02-09 20:55:03 <andytoshi> 2.1
1572 2014-02-09 20:55:08 <chichov> andytoshi: I see, indeed
1573 2014-02-09 20:55:31 <chichov> andytoshi: then it's simply a different format, ie not VarInt
1574 2014-02-09 20:55:40 <chichov> that'd explain it, thanks
1575 2014-02-09 20:55:52 <andytoshi> yup, that's right
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1579 2014-02-09 20:58:28 <petertodd> I'm half surprised it's not big endian, just to keep you on your toes...
1580 2014-02-09 20:59:27 <sipa> petertodd: every value that bitcoin itself serializes is little-endian :)
1581 2014-02-09 20:59:49 Charlie has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1582 2014-02-09 20:59:55 <sipa> (but the boundary of what is serialized by bitcoin, rather than being a byte vector serialized by some crypto operation, is dubious...)
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1584 2014-02-09 21:01:22 <petertodd> yup
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