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  36 2014-02-10 00:33:12 <copumpkin> hmm, my computer froze and when I restarted it, bitcoin-qt complained that it couldn't read the block index and had to reindex the whole thing. I thought there was some reasonable database that didn't suffer from this backing the program?
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  38 2014-02-10 00:34:36 <andytoshi> reasonable databases aren't fast
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  41 2014-02-10 00:36:33 <copumpkin> I know we moved away from bdb, but can't remember what replaced it
  42 2014-02-10 00:36:57 <emowataji> leveldb
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  45 2014-02-10 00:38:06 <copumpkin> hmm, and I guess that doesn't try to provide magic durability guarantees?
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  47 2014-02-10 00:41:25 <BB-Martino> thx again for the help back there
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  59 2014-02-10 00:53:42 <sipa> copumpkin: in theory, it does
  60 2014-02-10 00:53:54 <kostagr33k> can someone tell me why i get this after using bitcoind SENDMANY function: Warning! this transaction is a double spend of 112348699. You should be extremely careful when trusting any transactions to/from this sender.
  61 2014-02-10 00:54:03 <kostagr33k> i had about 72 outputs from 1 single input
  62 2014-02-10 00:54:15 <sipa> i'm sure it's not bitcoind telling you this
  63 2014-02-10 00:54:23 <kostagr33k> blockchain.info is
  64 2014-02-10 00:54:29 <Luke-Jr> ignore that website
  65 2014-02-10 00:54:35 <Luke-Jr> it is full of useless misinformation
  66 2014-02-10 00:54:43 <kostagr33k> that bad?
  67 2014-02-10 00:54:53 <copumpkin> sipa: :(
  68 2014-02-10 00:55:00 <sipa> copumpkin: which version?
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  70 2014-02-10 00:55:11 <copumpkin> 0.8.5-beta
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  72 2014-02-10 00:55:28 <sipa> git head / 0.9.0rc1 may improve things
  73 2014-02-10 00:55:31 <Luke-Jr> copumpkin: 0.8.6 fixed stuff like that :P
  74 2014-02-10 00:55:37 <copumpkin> gah
  75 2014-02-10 00:55:42 <sipa> on osx, 0.8.6 fixes some issues too
  76 2014-02-10 00:55:58 <copumpkin> why doesn't this thing have an update notification mechanism built into it yet? :P
  77 2014-02-10 00:56:04 <sipa> why do you think?
  78 2014-02-10 00:56:11 <copumpkin> cause someone hasn't implemented it yet
  79 2014-02-10 00:56:14 * copumpkin touches his nose
  80 2014-02-10 00:56:38 <sipa> no, because it'd be one hell of a responsibility for the one that controls the update notification mechanism
  81 2014-02-10 00:57:00 <Luke-Jr> copumpkin: too much power
  82 2014-02-10 00:57:13 <Luke-Jr> Joe Update Deployment essentially owns the network then
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  84 2014-02-10 00:57:26 <copumpkin> who runs the bitcoin-qt site or bitcoin.org?
  85 2014-02-10 00:57:33 <Luke-Jr> copumpkin: random people
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  87 2014-02-10 00:57:50 <sipa> copumpkin: even if someone hacks the website, it doesn't cause an instant update of every node
  88 2014-02-10 00:57:53 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin-qt doesn't *really* have a site..
  89 2014-02-10 00:57:55 <copumpkin> sure
  90 2014-02-10 00:58:02 <sipa> but yes, the problem exists already
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  93 2014-02-10 00:58:17 <sipa> there have been proposals to have auto-update, controlled by several developer's keys
  94 2014-02-10 00:58:18 <Luke-Jr> copumpkin: the long-term plan is to *offer* an update when N of M developers sign a release binary
  95 2014-02-10 00:58:22 <copumpkin> ah
  96 2014-02-10 00:58:27 <Luke-Jr> copumpkin: but that's new tech that isn't really done
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  98 2014-02-10 00:58:36 <sipa> eh s/auto-update/update notification/
  99 2014-02-10 00:58:51 <sipa> i don't think i want auto-update at all
 100 2014-02-10 00:58:52 <kostagr33k> luke-jr: how long do I wait before i should be worried? any other site I can verify with?
 101 2014-02-10 00:59:11 <Luke-Jr> kostagr33k: worried about what? if you sent it, nothing to worry about..
 102 2014-02-10 00:59:24 <kostagr33k> luke-jr: i sure hope so
 103 2014-02-10 00:59:26 <Luke-Jr> other side can verify when it's 6 or 7 blocks deep in the blockchain
 104 2014-02-10 00:59:48 <kostagr33k> i just want 1 confirmation to pop in so i can feel at ease. i guess its smoke time
 105 2014-02-10 00:59:50 <Luke-Jr> kostagr33k: note that your txid *might* change in the process of this. txid is not guarateed to be the same
 106 2014-02-10 01:00:06 <kostagr33k> really? i thought the output from send many is the txid?
 107 2014-02-10 01:00:11 <Luke-Jr> it is
 108 2014-02-10 01:00:16 <Luke-Jr> but it could change
 109 2014-02-10 01:00:21 <sipa> kostagr33k: there's an attack that modifies transactions in-flight, which does barely more than annoy people and confuse some software
 110 2014-02-10 01:00:30 <sipa> kostagr33k: it doesn't actually steal or invalidate or double spend
 111 2014-02-10 01:00:34 <copumpkin> are people actively doing that?
 112 2014-02-10 01:00:45 <sipa> we've seen several reports the past few days
 113 2014-02-10 01:00:51 <Luke-Jr> copumpkin: ever since a certain well-known exchange was found to be vulnerable..
 114 2014-02-10 01:00:53 <copumpkin> lol
 115 2014-02-10 01:01:23 <kostagr33k> will bitcoin-qt show the new txid in the Transactions tab?
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 117 2014-02-10 01:01:42 <Luke-Jr> kostagr33k: when it gets in a block, I think it will
 118 2014-02-10 01:01:52 <sipa> yes, it will show both
 119 2014-02-10 01:01:57 <kostagr33k> ok thanks luke-jr and sipa
 120 2014-02-10 01:02:13 <kostagr33k> 14 minutes and counting
 121 2014-02-10 01:02:20 <sipa> wait 2 hours
 122 2014-02-10 01:02:25 <Luke-Jr> I suspect the "original" txid/transaction will be a zombie unconfirmed forever
 123 2014-02-10 01:02:30 <sipa> yup
 124 2014-02-10 01:02:47 <sipa> or confirm :)
 125 2014-02-10 01:02:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I wonder if we should hold 0.9 off for a fix to that, since it seems someone is automatically doing it all the time now..
 126 2014-02-10 01:03:10 <Luke-Jr> well, if the original confirms, the mutation will never show
 127 2014-02-10 01:03:26 <copumpkin> anyone know more about the O((n^2)!) algorithm?
 128 2014-02-10 01:03:30 <jaakkos> do the openssl devs care?
 129 2014-02-10 01:03:32 <kostagr33k> so i guess i guess sit and wait? i was going to e-mail the end users but not if the TXID could be FUD
 130 2014-02-10 01:03:50 <copumpkin> jaakkos?
 131 2014-02-10 01:04:03 <jaakkos> about the malleability
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 133 2014-02-10 01:04:13 <copumpkin> I thought it was just a bitcoin issue, not including txid in signature
 134 2014-02-10 01:04:22 <copumpkin> or other metadata, I guess
 135 2014-02-10 01:04:41 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: I was talking about the recursive ismine() check for confirmed inputs on unconfirmed transactions, I think it's factorial complexity, the n^2 is a bit of an an exageration.
 136 2014-02-10 01:04:49 aynstein has joined
 137 2014-02-10 01:05:08 <jcorgan> sipa: can i get your help with something?
 138 2014-02-10 01:05:34 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: interesting! is there a writeup of that anywhere or do I just need to dig into the code?
 139 2014-02-10 01:05:35 <kostagr33k> luke-jr: ok i checked one of the addresses and I see the payment .. ill sit and wait. Thanks for the help as well sipa
 140 2014-02-10 01:05:44 <jaakkos> what is the proposed fix to the malleability issues?
 141 2014-02-10 01:05:51 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: phantom wrote about it.
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 146 2014-02-10 01:06:20 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: it won't be fixed for a long time, services need to be robust against it.
 147 2014-02-10 01:07:34 <jcorgan> sipa: i have your 'addrindex' branch *almost* compatible with current master
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 149 2014-02-10 01:08:08 <jcorgan> it's current up to Dec. 20, but there is a merge conflict with current master since then that should be straightforward, but I can't quite resolve it
 150 2014-02-10 01:08:46 <jaakkos> yeah, i see it can't be changed...
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 164 2014-02-10 01:16:30 <sipa> jcorgan: ok?
 165 2014-02-10 01:17:28 <jcorgan> so i was hoping you could do a trial merge of current master into my branch, and either resolve or help me to resolve the conflict in main.cpp and txdb.cpp
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 167 2014-02-10 01:18:02 <sipa> not now
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 169 2014-02-10 01:18:15 <sipa> i expect the largest problem is the changed leveldb wrapper interface
 170 2014-02-10 01:18:24 <jcorgan> that's all taken care of
 171 2014-02-10 01:18:31 <sipa> ok, so what's the problem?
 172 2014-02-10 01:18:51 <jcorgan> i've been incrementally merging master since you branched off, and fixing up the merge conflicts commit by commit
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 175 2014-02-10 01:19:11 <jcorgan> the conflict is actually quite small now
 176 2014-02-10 01:19:14 <sipa> sounds painful
 177 2014-02-10 01:19:19 <jcorgan> it has taken hours
 178 2014-02-10 01:19:58 <jcorgan> but i've got a addrindex branch on my github, and right now there's a node reindexing its database with it for testing, but the last master merge is from dec. 20
 179 2014-02-10 01:21:11 <jcorgan> i think it is just one problematic commit away from being a ready for testing
 180 2014-02-10 01:21:13 n0n0 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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 182 2014-02-10 01:21:47 <jcorgan> i can pastebin it if you want
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 186 2014-02-10 01:25:10 <jcorgan> http://pastebin.com/SuYr8eQu
 187 2014-02-10 01:26:02 <jcorgan> this particular conflict was introduced in 96e5f61d
 188 2014-02-10 01:26:30 <jcorgan> anyway, i understand if you don't have time right now
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 190 2014-02-10 01:27:41 <sipa> yeah, that's the encapsulated leveldb iterator
 191 2014-02-10 01:27:56 <sipa> i might PR that independently from addrindex at some point
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 193 2014-02-10 01:29:35 <jcorgan> well, so far the reworked addrindex branch i have is working against master @ 086d7ec2, i just need to test the RPC interface
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 196 2014-02-10 01:29:47 <jcorgan> (that's Dec. 24)
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 211 2014-02-10 01:38:57 <aynstein> WilsonNL: what are u compiling?
 212 2014-02-10 01:41:02 <zapsoda> Whats the proper way to convert BTC to satoshi (because a function needs intergers) and back again using python? Is it just divide and multiply by 100,000,000? Should I store the BTC values as floats?
 213 2014-02-10 01:41:29 <jcorgan> zapsoda: no
 214 2014-02-10 01:41:40 <jcorgan> store them as integer satoshi's and convert for display
 215 2014-02-10 01:44:04 <zapsoda> Ok, thanks, And to get them to satoshi do I multiply by 100 million?
 216 2014-02-10 01:44:13 <zapsoda> satoshi's(
 217 2014-02-10 01:44:36 <zapsoda> And for send functions I need to convert them back to *floats*?
 218 2014-02-10 01:44:41 <zapsoda> or decimals?
 219 2014-02-10 01:44:45 <zapsoda> sorry, noob here :p
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 222 2014-02-10 01:49:07 <emowataji> pity the send and display functions in the rpc interface don't use integer satoshis
 223 2014-02-10 01:50:05 <sipa> yes, very much so
 224 2014-02-10 01:50:16 <Luke-Jr> zapsoda: round(btc * 1e8)
 225 2014-02-10 01:50:34 <zapsoda> Thanks Luke-Jr
 226 2014-02-10 01:50:54 <Luke-Jr> sending, prob best to use Decimal type and /1e8
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 231 2014-02-10 01:52:55 <zapsoda> Luke-Jr, I'm getting TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for *: 'Decimal' and 'float'
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 233 2014-02-10 01:53:07 <zapsoda> Oh, Does your second reply have something to do with that :p
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 240 2014-02-10 02:00:38 <zapsoda> Oh I see, You were saying for sending it would be best to use decimal type and divide by 1e8
 241 2014-02-10 02:00:53 <zapsoda> And idea why I'm getting unsupported operand type(s)/
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 248 2014-02-10 02:10:14 <Cryo> ^
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 267 2014-02-10 02:20:35 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the last i heard you were writing a patch to remove vtxPrev
 268 2014-02-10 02:20:37 <phantomcircuit> is that still true?
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 270 2014-02-10 02:21:01 <sipa> phantomcircuit: lost track of that
 271 2014-02-10 02:21:06 <sipa> feel free to bring yours up to date
 272 2014-02-10 02:21:12 <sipa> i think i've made comments there
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 283 2014-02-10 02:30:04 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=457546.msg5034918 weee1
 284 2014-02-10 02:30:49 <sipa> that's the 3rd one today here
 285 2014-02-10 02:31:00 <sipa> someone is running a malleability bot, i think
 286 2014-02-10 02:31:51 <andytoshi> sipa: thx for the malleability writeup
 287 2014-02-10 02:32:06 <sipa> yw
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 289 2014-02-10 02:34:39 * fanquake wonder why people don't upgrade their clients
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 293 2014-02-10 02:35:49 <petertodd> sipa: keep in mind that there may be some very deep malleability issues with ECC sigs themselves
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 296 2014-02-10 02:36:46 <petertodd> sipa: I think we need to separate malleability that is annoying because of poorly coded wallet software and malleability that fundementally makes multi-party protocols dangerous - the latter can IMO be better fixed with a new CHECKSIG type
 297 2014-02-10 02:36:53 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well we've enumerated the only one we know of, and be darned we certantly tried to find another algebraic manipulation.
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 299 2014-02-10 02:37:14 <petertodd> gmaxwell: last I heard from adam he still wasn't sure; has that changed?
 300 2014-02-10 02:37:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'd just hate to see people rely on "fix malleability via whack-a-mole" and have that fail
 301 2014-02-10 02:38:11 <sipa> apparently people have relied on non-malleability for a long time already
 302 2014-02-10 02:38:14 <gmaxwell> he's not sure, I'm not sure. To be sure we'd need to find a proof that rerandomizing a DSA signature lets you solve discrete logs.
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 304 2014-02-10 02:38:41 <petertodd> gmaxwell: sounds like a lot of not sure :)
 305 2014-02-10 02:38:50 * andytoshi is also not sure ;)
 306 2014-02-10 02:38:51 <petertodd> sipa: well, people rely on zeroconf being safe so...
 307 2014-02-10 02:39:04 <gmaxwell> on the other hand, we spent a couple hours futzing with algebra and didn't find a way to do it.
 308 2014-02-10 02:39:31 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, i still haven't broken the block cipher I made, must be good stuff :P
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 311 2014-02-10 02:40:19 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, bc.i doesn't show any difference between them
 312 2014-02-10 02:40:21 <phantomcircuit> amusing
 313 2014-02-10 02:40:35 <sipa> phantomcircuit: one of the pushes is changed to a OP_PUSHDATA4
 314 2014-02-10 02:40:56 <phantomcircuit> ah that explains why they appear identical
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 334 2014-02-10 02:56:37 <zapsoda> Luke-Jr, when I convert them to decimals and divide by 1e8 I get numbers with alot of decimal places, Would I have to round down to the nearest 8th decimal place? Or is there a better way to do this?
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 336 2014-02-10 02:58:47 <Luke-Jr> zapsoda: convert to Decimal before you divide
 337 2014-02-10 02:59:10 <maaku> zapsoda: did you divide by 1e8 or Decimal(100000000)?
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 343 2014-02-10 03:01:07 <jaakkos> imo the whole mtgox mess just shows how damn difficult it is to come up with bitcoind-compliant implementation
 344 2014-02-10 03:01:40 <jaakkos> would it make sense to separate the core functionality into a library and encourage everyone to use it in their wallet implementations?
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 347 2014-02-10 03:02:22 <jaakkos> anyone implementing their own wallet from scratch seems to be screaming for trouble
 348 2014-02-10 03:02:27 <jaakkos> no matter how good you are
 349 2014-02-10 03:02:49 <andytoshi> they weren't good
 350 2014-02-10 03:02:52 <jaakkos> :D
 351 2014-02-10 03:03:07 <maaku> jaakkos: doesn't mtgox use (ancient, archaic, heavilly modded) bitcoind?
 352 2014-02-10 03:03:37 <jaakkos> i don't know anything else but just keep hearing it's "custom"
 353 2014-02-10 03:04:27 <zapsoda> Luke-Jr, I was converting the divided value to decimal but when I convert the int to decimal first then divide by 1e8 I get
 354 2014-02-10 03:04:28 <zapsoda> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for /: 'Decimal' and 'float'
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 357 2014-02-10 03:07:30 <sipa> jaakkos: not sure what you understand under 'core' functionality, but in my view, it certainly excludes the wallet
 358 2014-02-10 03:08:48 <jaakkos> perhaps i wanted to say node
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 364 2014-02-10 03:12:03 <jaakkos> oh well, not sure how to go about it. i'm just trying to think what could be done to avoid such issues in the future.
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 366 2014-02-10 03:12:24 <sipa> i don't think it's really an implementation issue
 367 2014-02-10 03:12:39 <sipa> the problem is infrastructure depending on an incorrect assumption
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 371 2014-02-10 03:14:07 <jaakkos> the assumption being that coins are not spent if the gox-generated tx isn't in ledger?
 372 2014-02-10 03:14:34 <jaakkos> gotta stop thinking about it and wait for the announcement :)
 373 2014-02-10 03:14:44 <sipa> announcement of what?
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 375 2014-02-10 03:14:56 <jaakkos> the one gox is supposed to release today
 376 2014-02-10 03:15:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, they put in place a self imposed timeline of an annoucement on monday
 377 2014-02-10 03:15:08 <sipa> yeah sure
 378 2014-02-10 03:15:16 <sipa> but i'm not expecting anything interesting there
 379 2014-02-10 03:15:32 <phantomcircuit> jaakkos, at the time mtgox implemented their own client they didn't have a lot of great options for handling the volume of payments they were supporting
 380 2014-02-10 03:15:34 <sipa> either it will be "still too much problems" or "withdrawals possible again"
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 382 2014-02-10 03:15:50 <sipa> i assume
 383 2014-02-10 03:16:30 <jaakkos> i don't even have funds at gox but i'm just very much interested in hearing what the problems are
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 385 2014-02-10 03:16:47 <phantomcircuit> jaakkos, giant accounting mess would be my guess
 386 2014-02-10 03:16:59 <sipa> jaakkos: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1x93tf/some_irc_chatter_about_what_is_going_on_at_mtgox/cf99yac
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 388 2014-02-10 03:17:11 <phantomcircuit> fixing the underlying problem should be relatively simple, but the giant tangle of thousands of cross referenced transactions isn't
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 390 2014-02-10 03:17:26 <jaakkos> sipa: yeah, this i saw, i actually asked:
 391 2014-02-10 03:17:44 <jaakkos> > i wonder if someone can show a set of 3 txs such that: 1) tx that attempts to double spend output X, 2) tx that spent X but signature was malformed and 3) modified tx 2 that was accepted in ledger that really ended up spending X
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 395 2014-02-10 03:18:38 <jaakkos> i had the feeling that would give ground to gmaxwell's theory?
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 415 2014-02-10 03:29:04 <zapsoda> Finally got the values to round down using:
 416 2014-02-10 03:29:04 <zapsoda> Decimal(amounts[i] / 1e8).quantize(Decimal(10) ** -8, rounding=ROUND_DOWN)
 417 2014-02-10 03:29:05 <zapsoda> But now I'm getting "TypeError: Decimal('0.00300986') is not JSON serializable" any ideas?
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 420 2014-02-10 03:34:49 <phantomcircuit> zapsoda, the decimal object isn't serializable
 421 2014-02-10 03:35:10 <phantomcircuit> you need to convert to a float and/or write an encoding routine for decimal.Decimal objects
 422 2014-02-10 03:35:27 <zapsoda> float seems alot easier but wont I lose to much precision?
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 424 2014-02-10 03:36:13 <zapsoda> If you need to encode decimals to use them in RPC there must be a already made function for bitcoin right?
 425 2014-02-10 03:36:35 <phantomcircuit> zapsoda, with standard floating point you will lose no precision
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 427 2014-02-10 03:36:50 <phantomcircuit> zapsoda, check jgarzik's github
 428 2014-02-10 03:36:54 <phantomcircuit> python-bitcoinrpc
 429 2014-02-10 03:37:01 <phantomcircuit> or maybe it's in python-bitcoinlib now
 430 2014-02-10 03:37:03 <phantomcircuit> i cant remember
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 500 2014-02-10 04:56:10 <fanquake> Finally found a decent mirror to download qt 5.2.1
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 502 2014-02-10 04:56:40 <fanquake> Half of the available mirrors seem to be down, or want me to wait a good 10 hours..
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 509 2014-02-10 05:00:06 <benkay> if anyone in here has some java experience I'd appreciate a bit of help reading something that's totally opaque to me: https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/core/src/main/java/com/google/bitcoin/core/Utils.java#130 i get that we're stepping through a 4-byte-wide byte array and setting each byte individually but this hairy (0xFF & (val >> 24)) stuff is breaking my poor brain
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 691 2014-02-10 09:23:02 <abrkn> what's error code -4 when submitting a tx using json api?
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 696 2014-02-10 09:27:24 <wumpus> huh, -4 is RPC_WALLET_ERROR an 'unspecified wallet error', it shouldn't happen while submitting a tx
 697 2014-02-10 09:28:17 <wumpus> or at least, what command are you using?
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 727 2014-02-10 10:03:31 <gmaxwell> ::sigh:: https://www.mtgox.com/press_release_20140210.html
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 745 2014-02-10 10:12:46 <wumpus> indeed, sigh
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 748 2014-02-10 10:13:52 <airbreather> trying to understand... can't MtGox just scan each block for transactions that spend the same inputs as the transactions they created, rather than one that matches by hash?
 749 2014-02-10 10:14:13 <sipa> they should do that
 750 2014-02-10 10:14:22 <Apocalyptic> <SarahCoinBit> ibtc The issue is much bigger than Mt.Gox, it affects all bitcoins
 751 2014-02-10 10:14:27 <Apocalyptic> such fud...
 752 2014-02-10 10:14:28 <wumpus> airbreather: of course they can
 753 2014-02-10 10:14:50 <sipa> but the problem is apparently services where people use the txid to prove a transaction from them didn't confirm
 754 2014-02-10 10:14:50 Breign has joined
 755 2014-02-10 10:14:54 <sipa> which is broken
 756 2014-02-10 10:14:59 <airbreather> ahh
 757 2014-02-10 10:15:05 <wumpus> but they like to call it a protocol bug because that allows them to pretent they're not responsible
 758 2014-02-10 10:15:30 <sipa> admittedly, no wallet client deals well with this situation afaik
 759 2014-02-10 10:15:45 <Apocalyptic> indeed sipa
 760 2014-02-10 10:15:55 <Blitzboom> gmaxwell: do they speak the truth?
 761 2014-02-10 10:16:00 <wumpus> and yes maybe it is a bug that transaction malleability is allowed, but they were generating transactions that were not accepted by the network that's their problem
 762 2014-02-10 10:16:00 <Blitzboom> is it on the devs to change this?
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 764 2014-02-10 10:16:35 <Apocalyptic> Blitzboom, are you serious ?
 765 2014-02-10 10:16:39 <wumpus> Blitzboom: reducing the maleability was already under way a long time
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 767 2014-02-10 10:16:43 <sipa> Blitzboom: he has talked to us in private, and we suggested some things, but i certainly wasn't aware of them relying on us to get the whole bitcoin ecosystem on this
 768 2014-02-10 10:16:55 <Apocalyptic> why should the dev change the way mtgox check if the tx did or did not go through ?
 769 2014-02-10 10:16:59 <gmaxwell> Blitzboom: It is exceptionally unlikely that malleability will be fixed in the year. We've been slowly moving towards improving it, v0.8 closed of many forms of it.
 770 2014-02-10 10:17:04 <Blitzboom> wow
 771 2014-02-10 10:17:10 <Blitzboom> mtgoxBTC are fucked?
 772 2014-02-10 10:17:20 <sipa> no
 773 2014-02-10 10:17:22 <gmaxwell> Blitzboom: no.
 774 2014-02-10 10:17:22 <wumpus> no, they're not, they just need to change *their* software
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 776 2014-02-10 10:17:42 <gmaxwell> They just need to change how they identify transactions.
 777 2014-02-10 10:17:44 <Blitzboom> doesn't sound like they intend to do that
 778 2014-02-10 10:17:50 <Blitzboom> but thanks
 779 2014-02-10 10:18:01 <gmaxwell> They're also talking about having another kind of txid so customers could look up normalized transactions.
 780 2014-02-10 10:18:09 <torokun> gmaxwell: why do they have to wait for a standard to implement their own unique txn hashing?
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 782 2014-02-10 10:18:25 <torokun> couldn't they just do it their own way?
 783 2014-02-10 10:18:27 <sipa> anyway, if they want an approved and implemented standard: i suggezted this: compute the sighash of all of a tx's inputs (while setting the prevout script to []), and hash all these sighashes together
 784 2014-02-10 10:18:34 <wumpus> Blitzboom: I'm sure they're working on that very hard right now
 785 2014-02-10 10:18:35 <gmaxwell> I'm a little disinclined to spend a lot of resources on that, because it doesn't solve a bunch of the other problems malleability presents, like griefers killing chains of unconfirmed txn.
 786 2014-02-10 10:18:38 <torokun> it's just a matter of accounting...
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 790 2014-02-10 10:19:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: otoh, it's not something thats free to support as a first class ui feature, e.g. lookup by that ID would require another large index.
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 793 2014-02-10 10:21:22 <sipa> what about some python tool checked into the repository that can calculate the normalized txid for a raw transaction?
 794 2014-02-10 10:22:03 <gmaxwell> doesn't really address the "where is my transaction? this txid you gave me matches nothing!" case though
 795 2014-02-10 10:22:46 <sipa> yeah, but what does adding it to the bitcoin core wallet help? i doubt few involved services use tbat wallet
 796 2014-02-10 10:23:00 <sipa> it'd be easy to add though
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 804 2014-02-10 10:26:14 <orweinberger> gmaxwell Doesn't mtgox's announcement contradicts your technical explanation?
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 806 2014-02-10 10:26:17 <airbreather> I dunno... it seems to me that this is a social problem rather than a technical one.  Worst-case, MtGox support gets flooded with people who try to scam them this way, and then after a trivial amount of scanning, they can verify that this is going on and then ban those customers.
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 808 2014-02-10 10:27:36 <xeroc> basically: mtgox accounting software is broken .. other exchanges not necessarily broken, too?!? is that right?
 809 2014-02-10 10:28:46 <dandroper> seems unclear atm
 810 2014-02-10 10:28:59 <gmaxwell> orweinberger: not really. It makes some implications which are just flat out untrue.
 811 2014-02-10 10:29:11 <gmaxwell> E.g. that this is something new.
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 813 2014-02-10 10:29:31 <orweinberger> So it's possible they are lying to buy some more time..
 814 2014-02-10 10:29:34 <gmaxwell> Rather than something we've known long enough about that there are posts in 2011 about it and a page on bitcoin.it wiki.
 815 2014-02-10 10:29:40 <gmaxwell> I don't think they're lying.
 816 2014-02-10 10:29:45 <gmaxwell> but who knows.
 817 2014-02-10 10:30:02 <wumpus> indeed, that's what they skip over: why does mtgox suffer from this so badly, while other exchanges continue functioning as normal
 818 2014-02-10 10:30:14 <comboy> but it would be nice to have a reliable handle to transaction in general, I mean when nobody reuses addresses it is solved I guess, but until then..
 819 2014-02-10 10:30:15 <wumpus> blame it on the protocol, why not
 820 2014-02-10 10:30:22 <dkog> "We have discussed this solution with the Bitcoin core developers and will allow Bitcoin withdrawals again once it has been approved and standardized." ... WHAT ?!?  I wish I was in a smaller room so I could bang my head against more walls at once...
 821 2014-02-10 10:30:24 <orweinberger> They're saying this is a 'weakness' in the bitcoin protocol and not specifically related to MtGox, if that's true why aren't we seeing these issues on Bitstamp or any other exchange
 822 2014-02-10 10:30:35 <gmaxwell> I was surprised by the tone and approach of their announcement. There are support related issues why they'd want something to be externally adopted but nothing I know or in the press releases suggests a reason that their withdraws need to be held until that happens.
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 824 2014-02-10 10:30:53 <Apocalyptic> orweinberger, it's not true... ffs
 825 2014-02-10 10:31:02 <orweinberger> Apocalyptic, I agree
 826 2014-02-10 10:31:14 <sipa> the only problem is relying on txids to remain unique
 827 2014-02-10 10:31:18 <Apocalyptic> ^
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 829 2014-02-10 10:31:29 <gmaxwell> orweinberger: my explaination was 1/4 about that, it's the stuff at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_Malleability
 830 2014-02-10 10:31:32 <comboy> their dummy support people are not able to verify transaction in any meaningful way probably other than copy pasting txid in their internal checker, so they probably need to fix that
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 833 2014-02-10 10:31:50 <gmaxwell> comboy: sure but is that a reason to hold all withdraws entirely?
 834 2014-02-10 10:32:16 <gmaxwell> and thats not up to any bitcoin core developers, for dummy compat they need bc.i buy in.
 835 2014-02-10 10:32:51 <comboy> gmaxwell: not for me, I guess they have been scammed and need to clean up before proceeding
 836 2014-02-10 10:33:01 <dkog> I don't understand why they can't just hash transactions however they want.
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 839 2014-02-10 10:33:30 <gmaxwell> dkog: they can.
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 845 2014-02-10 10:35:20 <dkog> So... why couldn't they just hash on txin, or the signatures themselves, .. I don't get why they make it out like it's impossible
 846 2014-02-10 10:36:11 <gmaxwell> dkog: they want some standard string fools can look up on bc.i, I still can't understand why its gating.
 847 2014-02-10 10:36:38 <airbreather> other than the output address, of course
 848 2014-02-10 10:36:41 <airbreather> ...
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 850 2014-02-10 10:37:02 <orweinberger> gmaxwell, do you think this entire issue can be solved solely by mtgox by implementing their withdrawal process in a different way and without having to change anything in the bitcoin protocol? (I'm guessing the answer is yes, since other exchanges are able to do so)
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 853 2014-02-10 10:37:32 <sipa> this has nothing to do with the protocol
 854 2014-02-10 10:37:38 <airbreather> they can just implement their own nonstandard hashing scheme and expose it in a web service
 855 2014-02-10 10:37:38 <dkog> gmaxwell: are you reading between the lines or have other info?  I don't see them say outright that's what they want
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 857 2014-02-10 10:37:56 <dkog> orweinberger: yes!
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 860 2014-02-10 10:38:27 <gmaxwell> dkog: somewhat both. I know they want that, I don't know if thats what they're reffering to as gating. If so I can't figure out why.
 861 2014-02-10 10:38:28 <maaku> orweinberger: yes
 862 2014-02-10 10:38:29 <airbreather> "here's some numbers, go to http://mtgox.com/wheres-my-money and plug them into that box to track your withdrawal"
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 864 2014-02-10 10:39:02 <Plarkplark> Mtgox statement: Can the bug block a transaction forever? Or just a while to fool the sending party? What is the time and computing power required to block longer then 10 minutes?
 865 2014-02-10 10:39:14 <maaku> orweinberger: instead of reporting only the hash to the user, they should record, report, and track the transaction itself
 866 2014-02-10 10:39:34 <airbreather> hell, they could even make "some numbers" be the original txid, and implement a translation scheme that's resistant to this behind the scenes if they want
 867 2014-02-10 10:40:17 <dkog> IN related news, Amazon refuses to ship any packages to Florida until the state builds a dome over it to prevent rain from damaging the cardboard boxes that are left uncovered in front of people's houses...
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 874 2014-02-10 10:44:09 <gmaxwell> dkog: I'm at least glad to see your comments. :)
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 877 2014-02-10 10:44:23 <dkog> it was a real conversation killer :)
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 881 2014-02-10 10:45:34 <coffeecoco> dont be shy due to me
 882 2014-02-10 10:45:38 <coffeecoco> do tell!
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 888 2014-02-10 10:48:03 <maaku> gmaxwell: nice writeup on reddit, thank you
 889 2014-02-10 10:48:09 <Plarkplark> gmaxwell: +1
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 891 2014-02-10 10:50:18 <nkuttler> link?
 892 2014-02-10 10:51:05 <midnightmagic> nkuttler: http://www.reddit.com/user/nullc and check comments, backwards.
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 895 2014-02-10 10:51:18 <nkuttler> midnightmagic: oh, that one. thanks :) was confused because of the nick
 896 2014-02-10 10:51:25 <midnightmagic> yah
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 898 2014-02-10 10:54:28 <maaku> for others who might be lazy: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1x93tf/some_irc_chatter_about_what_is_going_on_at_mtgox/cf99yac
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 904 2014-02-10 10:58:09 <thermoman> is there a problem with BTC transactions?
 905 2014-02-10 10:58:17 <thermoman> because we had a problem some hours ago
 906 2014-02-10 10:58:26 <thermoman> and now mt gox says it has problems with transactions
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 908 2014-02-10 10:59:30 <cazalla> are the mtgox claims true?
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 910 2014-02-10 11:00:20 <sipa> depends on how you interpret them
 911 2014-02-10 11:00:40 <thermoman> is there something wrong with the official bitcoin client?
 912 2014-02-10 11:00:42 <thermoman> 0.8.6
 913 2014-02-10 11:00:45 <thermoman> or the protocol?
 914 2014-02-10 11:00:58 <thermoman> can i resume operation or should i suspend?
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 916 2014-02-10 11:01:47 <sipa> neither has any problem, and neither will be changed
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 918 2014-02-10 11:02:20 <sipa> the problem is in infrastructure apparently making the assumption that transaction ids cannot change - something which has been known for years to be not true
 919 2014-02-10 11:02:34 <sipa> mtgox refers to a suggested standard for dealing with this
 920 2014-02-10 11:03:40 <maaku> thermoman: there is nothing wrong if you are following standard accepted practices
 921 2014-02-10 11:03:51 <jddebug> Still keeping the same sha256 or would mining change?
 922 2014-02-10 11:04:26 <maaku> jddebug: ?
 923 2014-02-10 11:04:28 <sipa> jddebug: NOTHING WILL CHANGE
 924 2014-02-10 11:04:29 <airbreather> (does this happen every time someone spreads FUD?)
 925 2014-02-10 11:04:33 <sipa> there is nothing wrong with the protocol
 926 2014-02-10 11:04:43 slothbag has joined
 927 2014-02-10 11:04:53 phlogiston has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 928 2014-02-10 11:05:06 <wumpus> no, mining has nothing to do with this at all
 929 2014-02-10 11:05:18 <wumpus> where do people get those idiot ideas?
 930 2014-02-10 11:05:50 <coffeecoco> fear^
 931 2014-02-10 11:06:54 caktux has quit (Quit: caktux)
 932 2014-02-10 11:06:57 <jddebug> Hey. Was asking if thats what was meant by their rederal to change in protocol. Geesh
 933 2014-02-10 11:07:11 <jddebug> *referal
 934 2014-02-10 11:07:13 <sipa> jddebug: sorry, we're kinda overwhelmed by that statement
 935 2014-02-10 11:07:18 caktux has joined
 936 2014-02-10 11:07:32 <jddebug> Kk
 937 2014-02-10 11:07:39 <wumpus> before you ask question about specific details that make no sense, I suggest you try to understand the big picture
 938 2014-02-10 11:07:52 JimJones_ has joined
 939 2014-02-10 11:09:56 Tray_ has joined
 940 2014-02-10 11:10:35 <midnightmagic> wumpus: Knowledge hierarchies which go through minds that don't understand bitcoin, but answer questions for scared people. It's normal, it's going to continue happening too.
 941 2014-02-10 11:10:37 Wild0wne_ has quit ()
 942 2014-02-10 11:10:53 GMP has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 943 2014-02-10 11:10:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Why do I keep getting emails from pulltester?
 944 2014-02-10 11:11:38 JimJones has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 945 2014-02-10 11:11:56 GMP has joined
 946 2014-02-10 11:12:04 Wild0wnes has joined
 947 2014-02-10 11:12:26 <Wild0wnes> whoever killed the gmaxwell dialog in here i hate you
 948 2014-02-10 11:12:51 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: probably because you are subscribed to some pull request
 949 2014-02-10 11:13:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Yes, your two gitian PRs
 950 2014-02-10 11:13:03 Goonie has joined
 951 2014-02-10 11:13:03 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: there's an unsubscribe button
 952 2014-02-10 11:13:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Are you updating them or something?
 953 2014-02-10 11:13:13 <wumpus> yes
 954 2014-02-10 11:13:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah
 955 2014-02-10 11:13:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(with what?)
 956 2014-02-10 11:13:52 <wumpus> still trying to get things deterministic
 957 2014-02-10 11:14:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't mind, I was just wondering what was changing, since there didn't appear to be a change on the page
 958 2014-02-10 11:14:12 lolstate has joined
 959 2014-02-10 11:14:21 <wumpus> I promise I'll give up today if it's still not going to work
 960 2014-02-10 11:14:36 Tray_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 961 2014-02-10 11:14:50 randy-waterhouse has joined
 962 2014-02-10 11:14:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Who are you promising that to? :P
 963 2014-02-10 11:15:31 sontol has joined
 964 2014-02-10 11:15:36 <wumpus> I think even the .tar.gz is deterministic now, though
 965 2014-02-10 11:15:46 sontol has left ()
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 967 2014-02-10 11:16:27 <gmaxwell> I'm hearing from a lot of people who are asking things like if it's safe for them to send bitcoins now.
 968 2014-02-10 11:16:28 <midnightmagic> whoah how did you do that? I couldn't get deterministic tar even by manipulating datestamps in the origin files.
 969 2014-02-10 11:16:38 <wumpus> gzip even includes a timestamp field in its header, isn't that wonderful
 970 2014-02-10 11:16:59 AndrewJackson has joined
 971 2014-02-10 11:17:40 <wumpus> midnightmagic: file names through a sort, normalize all permission/uid/gid/timestamp information, and tell gzip to not add a timestamp
 972 2014-02-10 11:17:43 <UukGoblin> maaku, what writeup on reddit?
 973 2014-02-10 11:17:57 <warren> wumpus: oooooh
 974 2014-02-10 11:17:58 <wumpus> midnightmagic: tar -xvf $HOME/build/bitcoin/$DISTNAME | sort | tar --no-recursion -cT /dev/stdin --mode='u+rw,go+r-w,a+X' --owner=0 --group=0 --mtime="$REFERENCE_DATETIME" | gzip -n > $OUTDIR/src/$DISTNAME   
 975 2014-02-10 11:17:58 <maaku> UukGoblin: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1x93tf/some_irc_chatter_about_what_is_going_on_at_mtgox/cf99yac
 976 2014-02-10 11:18:07 <UukGoblin> maaku, thanks
 977 2014-02-10 11:18:53 sontol has joined
 978 2014-02-10 11:19:36 <midnightmagic> wumpus: Awesome, thanks.
 979 2014-02-10 11:20:58 sontol has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 980 2014-02-10 11:21:00 thrasher has joined
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 986 2014-02-10 11:22:06 <davout> fun fact: i just deposited to my bitcoin-central account and it appeared twice under two different TXIDs, so apparently someone is out there, randomonly mutating TXIDs
 987 2014-02-10 11:22:50 <CrackRockerson> ghosts
 988 2014-02-10 11:22:58 jonwaller has joined
 989 2014-02-10 11:23:01 richardus has joined
 990 2014-02-10 11:23:15 <davout> dem leprechauns
 991 2014-02-10 11:23:24 tucenaber has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 992 2014-02-10 11:23:34 <randy-waterhouse> davout: fun fact : Instawallet funds disappeared without a trace
 993 2014-02-10 11:23:45 <randy-waterhouse> leprechauns?
 994 2014-02-10 11:23:48 kuzzo has joined
 995 2014-02-10 11:24:20 <randy-waterhouse> maybe they appeared in your bitcoin-central account twice already?
 996 2014-02-10 11:25:29 <davout> randy-waterhouse: this is -dev not -kindergarten
 997 2014-02-10 11:25:29 typex has quit (Changing host)
 998 2014-02-10 11:25:29 typex has joined
 999 2014-02-10 11:25:42 <randy-waterhouse> right you better leave
1000 2014-02-10 11:25:47 Bitjean has joined
1001 2014-02-10 11:26:23 <airbreather> davout: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8392.msg122410#msg122410 it's Enochian's echo bot!
1002 2014-02-10 11:26:42 <gmaxwell> sipa http://www.nu.nl/internet/3697861/bitcoin-weer-onderuit-lek-in-software.html
1003 2014-02-10 11:27:00 <sipa> gmaxwell: see my mail
1004 2014-02-10 11:27:21 <wumpus> goddamnit
1005 2014-02-10 11:27:34 <davout> airbreather: did the guy actually make a bot??
1006 2014-02-10 11:27:42 <davout> first time i witness this
1007 2014-02-10 11:27:44 <airbreather> no, probably not, just a tongue-in-cheek comment
1008 2014-02-10 11:27:51 yubrew_ has joined
1009 2014-02-10 11:28:05 <sipa> it would not surprise me that some bot doing this is actually out there
1010 2014-02-10 11:28:08 <davout> hehe, i suppose some people would find an interest in doing just that
1011 2014-02-10 11:28:10 <sipa> there have been many random cases
1012 2014-02-10 11:28:17 jonwaller has quit ()
1013 2014-02-10 11:28:23 rdponticelli has joined
1014 2014-02-10 11:28:25 <davout> sipa: yeah, the profit opportunity is pretty clear
1015 2014-02-10 11:28:49 <airbreather> some people just want to see the world burn.  or at least, scramble around a bit confused, asking if transactions still work
1016 2014-02-10 11:29:17 <Aahzmundus> Stupid since news like this sets back mass adoption a good few months
1017 2014-02-10 11:29:21 <davout> airbreather: or crash&buy
1018 2014-02-10 11:29:38 sfdag32 has joined
1019 2014-02-10 11:29:56 <maaku> davout: more charitably, it seems that mtgox was making transactions with incorrect encodings, and it may be that someone was just 'helpfully' fixing these after they became non-standard in 0.8
1020 2014-02-10 11:30:03 <maaku> but i don't think we know yet
1021 2014-02-10 11:31:08 <davout> maaku: well, as long as they were going through they were valid, remember that the "standard" thing is not in the protocol per se
1022 2014-02-10 11:31:19 Ademan has joined
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1024 2014-02-10 11:31:26 <jouke> gmaxwell: misinformed journalist, we'll contact them right away
1025 2014-02-10 11:31:41 <Plarkplark> jouke:  dutch?
1026 2014-02-10 11:31:52 <jouke> yes
1027 2014-02-10 11:31:54 <thermoman> "As a result the Mtgox wallet believed some coins were available for spending which really had already been spent and it began double spending those inputs"
1028 2014-02-10 11:31:54 <Ademan> Trying to get out of the storm... so... regarding scriptSig maleability, are there any other implications for that, or just, again, invalidating the transaction hash?
1029 2014-02-10 11:31:55 <Plarkplark> Because the bigger news sites will pick this up asap in NL
1030 2014-02-10 11:32:14 <sipa> Ademan: s/invalidating/changing/
1031 2014-02-10 11:32:26 yubrew_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1032 2014-02-10 11:32:57 <Ademan> sipa: sorry, right
1033 2014-02-10 11:33:05 <airbreather> Ademan: any transaction that spends the outputs from the losing txid also becomes invalid once the winner gets a few confirms, but that's as far as I think it goes...
1034 2014-02-10 11:33:13 <Ademan> I guess I said invalidating since other things depend on the hash, but really it's just changing
1035 2014-02-10 11:34:03 <sipa> Ademan: the problem is the definition of validity here... if you have a double spend or other forms of conflicting transactions... both are valid
1036 2014-02-10 11:34:10 <sipa> Ademan: it's just that only one will be accepted
1037 2014-02-10 11:34:29 DrSlony has joined
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1039 2014-02-10 11:34:48 a197453 has joined
1040 2014-02-10 11:35:03 hekep has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1041 2014-02-10 11:35:34 <wallet42> how exaclty can i change the hash of a signed tx?
1042 2014-02-10 11:35:43 CrackRockerson has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1043 2014-02-10 11:35:45 <gwb3> sipa and gmaxwell - if there is anything we can all do to help support your efforts now, more than ever, please do let us know
1044 2014-02-10 11:35:46 <UukGoblin> so having read all this, I've come to the conclusion that there's nothing wrong with bitcoin itself, and that you shouldn't trust unconfirmed transactions, and also that you shouldn't rely on the txid not changing
1045 2014-02-10 11:35:55 <airbreather> +1 UukGoblin
1046 2014-02-10 11:35:57 <Ademan> wallet42: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_Malleability
1047 2014-02-10 11:36:04 <sipa> UukGoblin: bingo
1048 2014-02-10 11:36:05 <wallet42> ademan:thx
1049 2014-02-10 11:36:17 <Ademan> wallet42: np, please don't try this at home ;-)
1050 2014-02-10 11:37:41 guest52693 has joined
1051 2014-02-10 11:37:42 <sipa> gwb3: thanks, but i don't think it's up to us to fix things
1052 2014-02-10 11:37:42 <gwb3> there are two issues now, 1. a technical issue at mt.gox 2. a pr problem for bitcoin
1053 2014-02-10 11:37:56 <gwb3> sipa: np ;)
1054 2014-02-10 11:38:02 hekep has joined
1055 2014-02-10 11:38:16 breesy has joined
1056 2014-02-10 11:38:36 <Ademan> gwb3: maybe they were hoping after this nobody would want their bitcoins any more and they would be off the hook for their insolvency ;-)
1057 2014-02-10 11:38:44 hasha has joined
1058 2014-02-10 11:38:47 <UukGoblin> gwb3, well, also probably 3. another technical issue at mtgox with cleaning all the mess up
1059 2014-02-10 11:39:16 one_zero has quit ()
1060 2014-02-10 11:39:19 <gwb3> i will continue to spread positive news items on social media to fight the good fight
1061 2014-02-10 11:39:25 LeapingLennie has joined
1062 2014-02-10 11:39:30 <UukGoblin> I don't expect it to be fixed any time sooner than their bank withdrawal problems ;-)
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1064 2014-02-10 11:40:10 starsoccer has joined
1065 2014-02-10 11:40:38 <Plarkplark> Why does he say this
1066 2014-02-10 11:40:39 <Plarkplark> The problem we have identified is not limited to MtGox, and affects all transactions where Bitcoins are being sent to a third party. We believe that the changes required for addressing this issue will be positive over the long term for the whole community.
1067 2014-02-10 11:40:59 <money> https://www.mtgox.com/press_release_20140210.html   The problem we have identified is not limited to MtGox, and affects all transactions where Bitcoins are being sent to a third party. We believe that the changes required for addressing this issue will be positive over the long term for the whole community.
1068 2014-02-10 11:41:03 a197453 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1069 2014-02-10 11:41:08 <money> whats that
1070 2014-02-10 11:41:15 <money> he sais the whole bitcoin network has a bug
1071 2014-02-10 11:41:24 <UukGoblin> no
1072 2014-02-10 11:41:27 <sipa> it does not
1073 2014-02-10 11:41:30 <money> it's just not onl y him
1074 2014-02-10 11:41:35 <UukGoblin> he says that other exchanges might have similar bugs as mtgox
1075 2014-02-10 11:41:37 <Ademan> Plarkplark: It's not clear to me why this doesn't affect (unconfirmed transactions) in regular wallets
1076 2014-02-10 11:41:40 <money> it does yes read, in black andwhite
1077 2014-02-10 11:42:04 <money> don't sweetned this, is it a bitcoin problem or not?
1078 2014-02-10 11:42:12 <UukGoblin> money, it is not
1079 2014-02-10 11:42:27 * Ademan needs to finish reading the source code so he knows how transactions are indexed
1080 2014-02-10 11:42:28 <Plarkplark> bitcoind seems uneffected, according to gmaxwell
1081 2014-02-10 11:42:33 <money> so why did he write that nonsense if it's nonsense
1082 2014-02-10 11:42:46 <Plarkplark> So is this like a "wear your seatbelt" kinda thing. and gox did not listen?
1083 2014-02-10 11:43:04 <randy-waterhouse> money: it's an edge case if you are a large target like an exchange doing lots of transactions without confirmations
1084 2014-02-10 11:43:07 <Plarkplark> and others _might_ als not be listening to the devs?
1085 2014-02-10 11:43:08 _asyn has joined
1086 2014-02-10 11:43:14 <money> gmaxxell should openly disqualify his statements.
1087 2014-02-10 11:43:24 thrasher has joined
1088 2014-02-10 11:43:55 <money> but well, that means that devs have to work on scalebility right?
1089 2014-02-10 11:43:57 <wallet42> what statement?
1090 2014-02-10 11:44:01 <money> so it does have limitations.
1091 2014-02-10 11:44:07 <sipa> money: it has nothing to do with scalability
1092 2014-02-10 11:44:37 bmcgee has joined
1093 2014-02-10 11:44:38 <randy-waterhouse> money: gox-like enterprises have limitations, but we already knew that
1094 2014-02-10 11:44:44 <thermoman> If an exchange uses the official bitcoind and accounts incoming BTC to user accounts only if at least 6 confirmations were seen on the network for this specific TXID - is this exchange safe or not?
1095 2014-02-10 11:44:44 <money> what is it then?
1096 2014-02-10 11:45:13 <sipa> money: bitcoin infrastructure (not the protocol or wallets themselves) assuming that transaction id's are immutable
1097 2014-02-10 11:45:35 <money> well so what he says isn't making sense? bitcoind is alright? or do you have to expand it? may other exchanges get into the same problem? btchina, houbi, and other exchanges?
1098 2014-02-10 11:46:09 <Plarkplark> money: only if they dont handle tx properly
1099 2014-02-10 11:46:20 <maaku>  money bitcoind is fine
1100 2014-02-10 11:46:21 <money> I see.
1101 2014-02-10 11:46:23 <Ademan> thermoman: I believe the issue actually lies on the outgoing side, but yes, I believe there is no problem with sufficiently confirmed transactions
1102 2014-02-10 11:46:36 riplin has joined
1103 2014-02-10 11:46:38 <Plarkplark> maaku: so there was a bugfix years ago for this problem in the official client?
1104 2014-02-10 11:46:59 <maaku> Plarkplark: there isn't a problem in the reference client
1105 2014-02-10 11:47:05 <wallet42> bitcoind is alright but it currently introduces a trapdor if you dont "get" the possible issues in your local database scheme
1106 2014-02-10 11:47:19 hdkiller has joined
1107 2014-02-10 11:47:42 <money> well why is mtgox blaming it on the outher external circumstances.... I know mtgox is bad, but there could be a possibility. And doesn't bitcoin produce standard wallets that work perfectly well with the bitcoinds?
1108 2014-02-10 11:47:43 windtilt has quit (Quit: windtilt)
1109 2014-02-10 11:48:34 guest52693 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1110 2014-02-10 11:48:48 msvb-lab has joined
1111 2014-02-10 11:48:48 <wallet42> well mtgox is right about that this "trapdrop" one may fall trough if you dont pay attention to some edge cases could be closed forever
1112 2014-02-10 11:48:58 Guest326462 has joined
1113 2014-02-10 11:50:10 <money> Bitcoin transactions are subject to a design issue that has been largely ignored, while known to at least a part of the Bitcoin core developers and mentioned on the BitcoinTalk forums.  https://www.mtgox.com/press_release_20140210.html <--- he is attacking the system.
1114 2014-02-10 11:50:24 <money> "Largely Ignored"
1115 2014-02-10 11:50:31 <money> DA NERVE.
1116 2014-02-10 11:50:57 <starsoccer> So are the bitcoin devs activily looking for a solution/working on a solution or its not a huge rush
1117 2014-02-10 11:51:00 <wallet42> it only affects haevy bitcoin transaction producers, that rely their check "this money was send?" on the incorrect assumptin that a txhash is not malleable
1118 2014-02-10 11:51:17 <Plarkplark> starsoccer: solution: use the reference (bitcoind) client. done.
1119 2014-02-10 11:51:20 <Ademan> maaku: why isn't this a problem for unconfirmed transactions for all clients?
1120 2014-02-10 11:51:26 <starsoccer> Plarkplark, yes i know that lol
1121 2014-02-10 11:51:34 <randy-waterhouse> who woulda thought ... the centralised users of decentralised system are having problems?
1122 2014-02-10 11:51:36 <Apocalyptic> starsoccer, it's not up to bitcoin devs to work out a sol for mtgox
1123 2014-02-10 11:51:40 <starsoccer> i just mean so the devs arent changing the whole protocol for mtgox
1124 2014-02-10 11:51:46 <starsoccer> oo i know
1125 2014-02-10 11:51:54 adam3us has joined
1126 2014-02-10 11:51:57 <sipa> the first e-mail on the bitcoin-dev mailing about malleability is from me, send on october 20th, 2012
1127 2014-02-10 11:51:59 <Plarkplark> If a car is broken, do you fix the road?
1128 2014-02-10 11:52:00 <starsoccer> just mtgox has an interesting way of blaming others for its problems
1129 2014-02-10 11:52:00 <maaku> starsoccer: there is no problem with the protocol or with bitcoind
1130 2014-02-10 11:52:04 <maaku> nothing is broken
1131 2014-02-10 11:52:12 <maaku> except mtgox's accounting
1132 2014-02-10 11:52:17 <starsoccer> lol
1133 2014-02-10 11:52:21 <sipa> maaku: apparently not only theirs
1134 2014-02-10 11:52:30 <starsoccer> yes just mtgox trying to push out some blame
1135 2014-02-10 11:52:31 <maaku> sipa: true
1136 2014-02-10 11:52:31 <wallet42> sipa: what is your take, should the protocol be changed?
1137 2014-02-10 11:52:33 <starsoccer> thats what i figured
1138 2014-02-10 11:52:43 <sipa> wallet42: no
1139 2014-02-10 11:52:51 magg0t has joined
1140 2014-02-10 11:52:56 mtgox968 has joined
1141 2014-02-10 11:52:59 sontol has joined
1142 2014-02-10 11:53:09 <sipa> wallet42: there are some changes that can be made to slowly root out the problems caused by malleability
1143 2014-02-10 11:53:09 <Ademan> sipa: why not? Surely having reliable txids even for unconfirmed transactions is *desirable*
1144 2014-02-10 11:53:10 <wallet42> sipa: so better local implementation is the answer
1145 2014-02-10 11:53:32 <maaku> Ademan: any improperly coded wallet application could suffer this problem. i don't know what other clients are vulnerable
1146 2014-02-10 11:53:48 <sipa> wallet42: but that will take years, is not a guaranteed fix for every potential issue with it, and is not really the issue here
1147 2014-02-10 11:53:53 n1c has joined
1148 2014-02-10 11:54:08 <sipa> Ademan: right, if we'd design bitcoin from scratch today, we'd make sure malleability was of no concern
1149 2014-02-10 11:54:19 Hawkix has joined
1150 2014-02-10 11:54:19 <sipa> but there is a huge infrastructure that cannot just be changed
1151 2014-02-10 11:54:55 gimme_bottles has joined
1152 2014-02-10 11:54:56 <money> oh
1153 2014-02-10 11:55:08 <Ademan> maaku: isn't this a problem for bitcoind too? Unconfirmed transactions' txids may not be what the originating client expects, how could that *not* be a problem?
1154 2014-02-10 11:55:14 <starsoccer> sipa so years, like gmaxwell said. thats what i ifigured
1155 2014-02-10 11:55:26 <sipa> Ademan: yes, bitcoind's wallet doesn't deal with it particularly well
1156 2014-02-10 11:55:26 <maaku> Ademan: because txids are meaningless
1157 2014-02-10 11:55:49 <sipa> Ademan: only when you accept unconfirmed transactions, though
1158 2014-02-10 11:56:03 <davout> maybe they should be re-labeled to something else than "IDentifier" then :-)
1159 2014-02-10 11:56:06 <Plarkplark> I hope the devs come up with a good, short post on what/how/when/who.
1160 2014-02-10 11:56:08 <money> so if I get this malleability concept correctly, some otherguy can use up coins, and actually doesn't need to own them?
1161 2014-02-10 11:56:10 <maaku> the reference wallet in bitcoind annoyingly doesn't handle mutant transactions very well
1162 2014-02-10 11:56:14 <gmaxwell> Your site says it payed a customer in txid X. They call bitching, and the tx is unconfirmed for N weeks. Your support staff looks and indeed txid X is unconfirmed for weeks.  ... problem there is that the _only_ safe thing to do is to respend and keep the same inputs. Mallability is irrelevant to the safty in this case.  So thats a bit interesting.
1163 2014-02-10 11:56:15 <maaku> but you don't lose money because of it
1164 2014-02-10 11:56:16 <sipa> maaku: NO
1165 2014-02-10 11:56:17 <Plarkplark> Get this finger pointing out of the way.
1166 2014-02-10 11:56:18 <sipa> eh
1167 2014-02-10 11:56:19 <Ademan> money: no
1168 2014-02-10 11:56:19 <sipa> money: NO
1169 2014-02-10 11:56:29 <sipa> money: all that can happen is that someone can modify a transaction's txid
1170 2014-02-10 11:56:37 <sipa> money: without changing the source or destination of the money
1171 2014-02-10 11:56:41 <sipa> money: and without invalidating it
1172 2014-02-10 11:56:44 <wallet42> money: no you can cange txid
1173 2014-02-10 11:56:47 <Plarkplark> gmaxwell: can they delay the tx for weeks?
1174 2014-02-10 11:56:53 <money> ok
1175 2014-02-10 11:56:57 <gmaxwell> Plarkplark: no, why are you asking me this again?
1176 2014-02-10 11:57:02 <Plarkplark> sorry
1177 2014-02-10 11:57:09 <maaku> money: the transaction is *exactly* the same ... just with a different hex id
1178 2014-02-10 11:57:21 caktux_ has joined
1179 2014-02-10 11:57:24 <money> i see
1180 2014-02-10 11:57:29 mbeth has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1181 2014-02-10 11:57:32 cookiemonster has joined
1182 2014-02-10 11:57:46 <wallet42> but if you store in your DB: user_x got paid by TXID
1183 2014-02-10 11:57:57 lklkbdf has joined
1184 2014-02-10 11:57:59 <wallet42> and now there is TXID' in the block
1185 2014-02-10 11:58:05 <gmaxwell> Plarkplark: mtgox's delayed transactions are because they were spending already spent coins, and before that because they were producing invalid der encodings, and before that because they were spending immature coins. The existance of mutation doesn't give anyone a way to delay payments that I'm aware of.
1186 2014-02-10 11:58:05 <wallet42> the user got his funds
1187 2014-02-10 11:58:26 <wallet42> but in your DB the TXID is marked as not included in block
1188 2014-02-10 11:58:27 <gmaxwell> maaku: say functionally the same instead of exactly. :P
1189 2014-02-10 11:58:35 <maaku> gmaxwell: yes, thank you
1190 2014-02-10 11:58:42 <Hawkix> Is there a way to verify ex-post that the immutable hash id were indeed misused by someone?
1191 2014-02-10 11:58:48 <Plarkplark> gmaxwell: Ok so the explenation in the press release does not really match what we saw in the blockchain?
1192 2014-02-10 11:58:53 Yamamushi has joined
1193 2014-02-10 11:59:11 <gmaxwell> Plarkplark: which part?
1194 2014-02-10 11:59:18 <maaku> Hawkix: yes
1195 2014-02-10 11:59:28 <Plarkplark> the "bug"
1196 2014-02-10 11:59:42 <Ademan> so is the way to "account" for this correctly to compute your own "id" based on unmaleable portions (a somehow normalized signature and scriptsig + inputs+outputs) ?
1197 2014-02-10 11:59:44 b3itcoin-dev266 has joined
1198 2014-02-10 11:59:47 <Hawkix> maaku: by searching for additional "padding spam" in the mined transactions?
1199 2014-02-10 11:59:55 caktux has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1200 2014-02-10 11:59:55 caktux_ is now known as caktux
1201 2014-02-10 12:00:02 <gmaxwell> Ademan: sure, thats a way of accounting. Or you track spentness on the basis of which inputs were used.
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1204 2014-02-10 12:00:28 <maaku> Ademan: that would be an ideal thing to do, yes, although theoretically we don't even know if that is possible
1205 2014-02-10 12:00:29 <gmaxwell> IMO inputs are necessary anyways, see my above example:
1206 2014-02-10 12:00:30 <gmaxwell> 03:56 < gmaxwell> Your site says it payed a customer in txid X. They call bitching, and the tx is unconfirmed for N weeks. Your support staff looks and indeed txid X  is unconfirmed for weeks.  ... problem there is that the _only_ safe thing to do is to respend and keep the same inputs. Mallability is irrelevant to  the safty in this case.  So thats a bit interesting.
1207 2014-02-10 12:00:32 darkee has joined
1208 2014-02-10 12:00:47 <wallet42> is the upcomming "relay double spent" transactions a possibly mitigation
1209 2014-02-10 12:00:50 <starsoccer> gmaxwell,  so basically mtgox is just trying to push the blame onto you when its their custom software
1210 2014-02-10 12:01:05 <wallet42> ?
1211 2014-02-10 12:01:14 <gmaxwell> E.g. imagine the tx was just delayed and never mutated.  You reissue using different inputs? you're potentially screwed, since the original tx might eventually go through. To be safe you must reuse the same inputs, and then you don't care about mutation.
1212 2014-02-10 12:01:24 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
1213 2014-02-10 12:01:38 <gmaxwell> starsoccer: well the world is not as simple as A vs B.  Bitcoin has some quirks which make correct usage harder than I wish it were.
1214 2014-02-10 12:01:54 <Ademan> makes sense
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1216 2014-02-10 12:02:26 <starsoccer> gmaxwell, yes, for sure, but i just mean they seem to like to say the bitcoin devs need to fix it rather then we will just adjust our software
1217 2014-02-10 12:03:36 <money> We have discussed this solution with the Bitcoin core developers and will allow Bitcoin withdrawals again once it has been approved and standardized. In the meantime, exchanges and wallet services - and any service sending coins directly to third parties - should be extremely careful with anyone claiming their transaction did not go through.
1218 2014-02-10 12:03:42 <starsoccer> well hopefully mtgox will attempt to actully fix it
1219 2014-02-10 12:03:48 <money> whats that??
1220 2014-02-10 12:03:51 <starsoccer> otherwise looks like we will be waiting weeks for mtgox
1221 2014-02-10 12:04:05 windtilt has joined
1222 2014-02-10 12:04:06 <Ademan> gox has been dead to me for almost a year now
1223 2014-02-10 12:04:07 <money> so the bitcoin devs have to fix that and then they will open bitcoin withdrawals?
1224 2014-02-10 12:04:07 pierreatwork has joined
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1226 2014-02-10 12:04:24 <wallet42> money: defn not
1227 2014-02-10 12:04:27 <sipa> money: hell no
1228 2014-02-10 12:04:31 <gmaxwell> they're going to be wating a long time for that.
1229 2014-02-10 12:04:31 <money> Also does this mean that the whole network is currently vulnerable???
1230 2014-02-10 12:04:34 <Apocalyptic> money, the bitcoin dev don't have to do shit
1231 2014-02-10 12:04:35 <wallet42> money: thay have to fix THEIR implementation
1232 2014-02-10 12:04:35 <money> well he said it.
1233 2014-02-10 12:04:52 <gmaxwell> money: you were trolling hard in the gox channels earler, please don't bring it here.
1234 2014-02-10 12:04:54 <Apocalyptic> so it must be true ?
1235 2014-02-10 12:04:57 <puzl> but they can track the mutation through the blockchain, right?
1236 2014-02-10 12:05:12 <money> NO I quoting what the guy said from the mtgox.com site.
1237 2014-02-10 12:05:19 <maaku> puzl: yes
1238 2014-02-10 12:05:19 <puzl> so it should be easy enough for them to fix the problem on their end?
1239 2014-02-10 12:05:38 <maaku> puzl: yes again, for some definition of "easy"
1240 2014-02-10 12:05:40 <wallet42> puzl: well i dont think its a cakewalk
1241 2014-02-10 12:05:45 <gwb3> i think it would be helpful if other exchanges started coming out in defense of bitcoin
1242 2014-02-10 12:05:47 <sipa> there are 3 different problems here: malleability as a whole (which we are slowly working towards fixing, but will take years), 2) wallets (like mtgox's) which don't deal well with malleability and 3) other services that rely on a constant txid to track transactions that do not confirm
1243 2014-02-10 12:05:57 <money> I'm trying to technically understand this. just a second gmaxwell. He said he took this bug with the bitcoin core developers and will only open bitcoin withdrawals once they fix this bug.
1244 2014-02-10 12:06:03 <sipa> it is for 3) that they want a standard solution, and we're working on proposing one
1245 2014-02-10 12:06:13 <sipa> however, this is NOT something that will impact the protocol or clients
1246 2014-02-10 12:06:15 <gwb3> last week (and even to a degree before that) mt. gox really got dragged through the mud
1247 2014-02-10 12:06:19 <puzl> well, for a definition of easy being "all the information is present already" i.e. no protocol change required
1248 2014-02-10 12:06:25 <gwb3> their brand certainly tarnished to a degree
1249 2014-02-10 12:06:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: well kind of a 4th too, did you see my point about inputs?  gox wouldn't have been saved from 'potential' losses by just the elimination of mallibility because they respent without doublespending.
1250 2014-02-10 12:06:58 <maaku> money: that statement was factually incorrect as we have described to you above. please read the scrollback
1251 2014-02-10 12:07:02 <gwb3> this press release is basically saying, "hey, it's not us, it's bitcoin - good thing we picked up on this, others could be affected"
1252 2014-02-10 12:07:08 <money> He also states that users can say they didn't get a tx, by manipulating the bitcoinchain thing. he says that  anyone can do it right now, and claim that they didn't get a pay.
1253 2014-02-10 12:07:25 <money> ok maaku , I just copy pasted from his site
1254 2014-02-10 12:07:35 <money> https://www.mtgox.com/press_release_20140210.html
1255 2014-02-10 12:07:48 <Hawkix> can someone SCAN the blockchain to detect all mutated transactions and post stats about the misuse?
1256 2014-02-10 12:07:56 <maaku> Hawkix: no
1257 2014-02-10 12:08:01 <wallet42> you cannot FIX the "doublespending" problem by respending
1258 2014-02-10 12:08:02 <Ademan> Hawkix: not from the blockchain alone
1259 2014-02-10 12:08:04 <maaku> because only one of the transactions made it on the chain
1260 2014-02-10 12:08:05 <Apocalyptic> Hawkix, that would be their job
1261 2014-02-10 12:08:19 <gwb3> exchanges are integral to the sustainability of bitcoin, also confidence in exchanges are integral to continued adoption by merchants and other retailers
1262 2014-02-10 12:08:32 <Hawkix> I thought that to change transaction id, one must add some padding to the script, right?
1263 2014-02-10 12:08:38 <Ademan> Hawkix: I suppose you could try to listen to all transactions on the network, and see if any mutants of transactions you've seen make it into the blockchain
1264 2014-02-10 12:08:39 <gwb3> more retailers are adopting bitcoin each day
1265 2014-02-10 12:08:44 <maaku> Hawkix: but if by "someone" you mean mtgox, then yes, they have the necessary info to do that
1266 2014-02-10 12:08:48 <wallet42> Hawikix: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_Malleability
1267 2014-02-10 12:09:05 <maaku> or they should if they kept logs of their transactions
1268 2014-02-10 12:09:10 <Ademan> Hawkix: Both mutant and original transaction are valid, it's not really possible to tell which is the "original"
1269 2014-02-10 12:09:11 lklkbdf has left ()
1270 2014-02-10 12:09:13 _MrB_ has joined
1271 2014-02-10 12:09:24 <Apocalyptic> (this is clearly off-topic here=
1272 2014-02-10 12:09:37 <gwb3> does anyone in here know someone in the community who i can reach out to about marketing strategy coming off this press release?
1273 2014-02-10 12:09:52 ryan-c has joined
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1275 2014-02-10 12:10:06 <gwb3> honestly if other exchanges start coming out against what mt. gox just said i think it will help
1276 2014-02-10 12:10:09 <Ademan> Apocalyptic: the nature of the blockchain and protocol are offtopic here?
1277 2014-02-10 12:10:18 <Apocalyptic> Ademan, nope, the talk about gox
1278 2014-02-10 12:10:19 trn has joined
1279 2014-02-10 12:10:26 <money> So what mtgox said is wrong? then?  --> this cannot happen: In the meantime, exchanges and wallet services - and any service sending coins directly to third parties - should be extremely careful with anyone claiming their transaction did not go through.
1280 2014-02-10 12:10:32 <Ademan> Apocalyptic: ah, sorry
1281 2014-02-10 12:10:34 <randy-waterhouse> gwb3: most retailers are using BitPay ... talk to them?
1282 2014-02-10 12:10:40 Tray_ has joined
1283 2014-02-10 12:10:54 <gwb3> randy-waterhouse: ok
1284 2014-02-10 12:11:13 <maaku> money: that part is correct. services should not be checking if transactiosn went through by txid
1285 2014-02-10 12:11:33 <Apocalyptic> ^
1286 2014-02-10 12:11:39 <money> I see.
1287 2014-02-10 12:11:43 <Plarkplark> maaku: cant they just check the receiving address, and wait for 3 or 6 confirms?
1288 2014-02-10 12:12:13 <maaku> no, because anybody could send coins to the receiving address
1289 2014-02-10 12:12:19 <Apocalyptic> Plarkplark, it's a bit more complicated than that, the guy can claim he's expecting another tx with the same amount
1290 2014-02-10 12:12:31 <Apocalyptic> you have to watch for specific inputs there
1291 2014-02-10 12:12:37 <Apocalyptic> which can be done
1292 2014-02-10 12:12:38 <Plarkplark> Ah. There we go. thanks
1293 2014-02-10 12:12:58 <Plarkplark> How do other exchanges handle that?
1294 2014-02-10 12:13:00 <maaku> but they can extract the essential skeleton of the transactions (inputs minus the script sigs + outputs) and watch for that
1295 2014-02-10 12:13:03 <Plarkplark> Or is that too complicated?
1296 2014-02-10 12:13:15 shawn-p has joined
1297 2014-02-10 12:13:39 <Plarkplark> if you pull apart he receiving address and check if the balance created contains your inputs, you are ok, right?
1298 2014-02-10 12:13:50 <Plarkplark> (if it is confirmed of course)
1299 2014-02-10 12:14:07 RaTTuS has joined
1300 2014-02-10 12:14:26 <money> so what's the way to comfirm that the tx went through ok then?
1301 2014-02-10 12:14:52 <Ademan> money: if there's a transaction in the block chain which has the inputs and outputs expected
1302 2014-02-10 12:14:57 <randy-waterhouse> I think a lot of folks have lost sight of the fact that bitcoin is a much better settlement/clearing system than it is a payment system
1303 2014-02-10 12:15:03 Tray_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1304 2014-02-10 12:15:11 <randy-waterhouse> a la jgarzik
1305 2014-02-10 12:15:24 <money> ok
1306 2014-02-10 12:15:24 adam3us has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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1308 2014-02-10 12:15:46 <money> and a software and check for that easy? or does it neeed manual intervention?
1309 2014-02-10 12:15:50 adam3us has joined
1310 2014-02-10 12:16:09 <Plarkplark> so Gox was not doing things best-practice. and they got hurt.
1311 2014-02-10 12:16:26 <Ademan> randy-waterhouse: I think the distinction is lost on me, then again it's really late/early... what do you mean?
1312 2014-02-10 12:16:42 <money> but it's annoying to see them blaming others for their stuff. and confusing too.
1313 2014-02-10 12:17:07 <Ademan> money: Software to check the blockchain for your transaction is easy enough.
1314 2014-02-10 12:17:19 <money> ok
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1318 2014-02-10 12:19:15 <money> so it's kind of weird, it looks like mtgox is asking for the bitcoin devs to do some changes, but you say you aren't going to do anything. So he says that he will wait till you effect the changes. and do a standardization. well I hope it's all settled soon enough. May good will prevail.
1319 2014-02-10 12:19:15 go1111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1320 2014-02-10 12:19:18 <money> bye
1321 2014-02-10 12:19:26 <money> and thanks too
1322 2014-02-10 12:19:51 Wild0wnes has joined
1323 2014-02-10 12:21:15 <sipa> money: all that will happen is us proposing a standard
1324 2014-02-10 12:21:21 <sipa> the client will not change, and the protocol will not change
1325 2014-02-10 12:21:32 <sipa> this is something that needs to be fixed at the layer on top of Bitcoin
1326 2014-02-10 12:21:48 <sipa> but apparently they rely on us for setting a standard, and i'm fine with that
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1332 2014-02-10 12:22:14 <Apocalyptic> "this is something that needs to be fixed at the layer on top of Bitcoin" // can't agree more
1333 2014-02-10 12:22:21 <randy-waterhouse> stealth addressing could help also
1334 2014-02-10 12:22:41 <randy-waterhouse> as part of layer 2 protocol
1335 2014-02-10 12:22:43 <Ademan> sipa: you mentioned "gradual tightening" of maleability earlier, what steps can be taken?
1336 2014-02-10 12:22:47 HaltingState has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1337 2014-02-10 12:23:15 <wallet42> sipa: By proposing a standard you mean a bip?
1338 2014-02-10 12:23:38 venzen has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1339 2014-02-10 12:24:35 <sipa> Ademan: https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691
1340 2014-02-10 12:25:08 <wallet42> cool stuff sipa :)
1341 2014-02-10 12:25:36 DeVol has joined
1342 2014-02-10 12:25:46 <Ademan> sipa: cool, I'm going to shelve that for the moment though. I'm in no mental state to grok this... and I have 150 pages of boring homework to read in the next 10 hours
1343 2014-02-10 12:25:59 owowo has joined
1344 2014-02-10 12:26:14 <Ademan> (I don't have to grok my homework, heh)
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1347 2014-02-10 12:26:57 skarloey has joined
1348 2014-02-10 12:27:10 quellhorst has joined
1349 2014-02-10 12:27:38 <quellhorst> what do you guys think of http://blog.oleganza.com/post/76213549017/mtgox-and-malleable-transactions
1350 2014-02-10 12:28:37 neotap has joined
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1353 2014-02-10 12:29:53 <maaku> quellhorst: pertty good summary
1354 2014-02-10 12:31:07 tucenaber has joined
1355 2014-02-10 12:31:19 <gwb3> headline not so bad on bloomberg - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-10/bitcoin-exchange-mt-gox-says-users-can-withdraw-cash-as-normal.html
1356 2014-02-10 12:31:40 <midnightmagic> quellhorst: It's not a question of getting "lucky". It requires significant effort to do it, or access to significant mining hashrate where the miner's willing to fiddle with things for you.
1357 2014-02-10 12:31:43 <Ademan> haha withdraw cash "as normal"
1358 2014-02-10 12:32:00 t7 has quit (Quit: home)
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1366 2014-02-10 12:33:08 <midnightmagic> quellhorst: Also, it's unlikely they didn't know that tx could be mutated. More likely they knew but didn't think it affected them.
1367 2014-02-10 12:33:29 <maaku> midnightmagic: or peering directly with mtgox in hope of being one of the first relays
1368 2014-02-10 12:33:30 <quellhorst> midnightmagic: interesting
1369 2014-02-10 12:33:43 <airbreather> more likely, they ignored it because they wanted to move as many coins as possible as fast as possible?
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1372 2014-02-10 12:34:00 <midnightmagic> maaku: .. which would require deliberate effort on the part;  it can't just be "issued" on the network. Nobody will relay it.
1373 2014-02-10 12:34:35 <midnightmagic> Besides, SatoshiDice and the later SD clones were and are being affected by this issue in the form of re-rolls.
1374 2014-02-10 12:34:58 <randy-waterhouse> easier to do collusively
1375 2014-02-10 12:35:12 <wallet42> zomg version 3 block :D
1376 2014-02-10 12:35:16 <wallet42> so cool
1377 2014-02-10 12:35:22 <airbreather> ahh yeah... that would almost completely break SD, wouldn't it...
1378 2014-02-10 12:35:22 MagicalTux has joined
1379 2014-02-10 12:35:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: "februari"?
1380 2014-02-10 12:35:45 <midnightmagic> airbreather: It forced SD to wait for confirms for the larger bets, and then nearly all bets.
1381 2014-02-10 12:36:07 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: ugh, it's february in english, right?
1382 2014-02-10 12:36:11 <airbreather> sip: yep
1383 2014-02-10 12:36:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah, with a capital F
1384 2014-02-10 12:37:26 <wallet42> i love how sipa writes this bip so fast with sound technicall stuff and gets plamed for the word februrari
1385 2014-02-10 12:37:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, I thought they were called OP_PUSHDATA*?
1386 2014-02-10 12:37:59 adam3us has joined
1387 2014-02-10 12:38:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(as opposed to OP_DATAPUSH*)
1388 2014-02-10 12:38:20 _asyn has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1389 2014-02-10 12:38:35 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: good catch :p
1390 2014-02-10 12:38:48 FlawInMtGox has joined
1391 2014-02-10 12:39:54 rfree has joined
1392 2014-02-10 12:40:06 <rfree> the problem described by mtgox really does exist, right?
1393 2014-02-10 12:40:09 MagicalTux has quit (Excess Flood)
1394 2014-02-10 12:40:13 <rfree> -> so the actuall transaction script is signed,  but the transaction message has other signature like envelope that can be changed, resulting in the script being accepted to blockchain but in other envelope, and then many portals would be conned into thinking they didn't sent the btc while they did?
1395 2014-02-10 12:40:34 da2ce7 has joined
1396 2014-02-10 12:40:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|rfree: The "envelope" is the txis
1397 2014-02-10 12:40:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|txid*
1398 2014-02-10 12:40:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's simple the hash of the transaction
1399 2014-02-10 12:40:55 jtimon has joined
1400 2014-02-10 12:41:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|siimply*
1401 2014-02-10 12:41:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...
1402 2014-02-10 12:41:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|-typo
1403 2014-02-10 12:41:15 <andytoshi> to all the devs who are no doubt being pounded by bullshit in several channels, i'd like to offer my emotional support and shared frustration at the assinine gox release
1404 2014-02-10 12:41:28 ssshhh has quit (Quit: Got to go - Be back soon!)
1405 2014-02-10 12:41:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|andytoshi: +1.
1406 2014-02-10 12:41:31 <rfree> so the claim is correct, that someone could retransmit same transaction but "hidden" in other hash to confuse the payment api?
1407 2014-02-10 12:41:39 <sipa> yes
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1409 2014-02-10 12:41:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|rfree: Yes, it's possible to change the txid
1410 2014-02-10 12:41:51 <FlawInMtGox> would it help if I ddosed mtgox or no?
1411 2014-02-10 12:41:55 <sipa> FlawInMtGox: no
1412 2014-02-10 12:41:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Basically, make a new transaction that does the exact same thing
1413 2014-02-10 12:41:58 <Apocalyptic> it shouldn't confuse the payment api though
1414 2014-02-10 12:42:01 <FlawInMtGox> ok
1415 2014-02-10 12:42:04 <Apocalyptic> whatever it may be
1416 2014-02-10 12:42:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Same inputs and same outputs
1417 2014-02-10 12:42:07 HaltingState has joined
1418 2014-02-10 12:42:18 oPen_syLar has joined
1419 2014-02-10 12:42:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But not exactly the same, so the txid changes
1420 2014-02-10 12:42:37 <torokun> "or not"...  "or no" is what they say in Spanish.
1421 2014-02-10 12:42:48 <rfree> I mean, it is possible to use this situation for attack as mtgox describes, to confuse payment systems into thinking given payment was not sent, while given account was in fact credited with given amount of bitcoin from given inputs?
1422 2014-02-10 12:42:52 MT`BNC has joined
1423 2014-02-10 12:43:10 <Zoop_> i just wish bitcoin devs and mtgox won't burn some bridges over this
1424 2014-02-10 12:43:21 <Zoop_> it would only hurt the bitcoin community
1425 2014-02-10 12:43:51 <maaku> rfree: not in a properly implemented wallet software
1426 2014-02-10 12:43:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|rfree: Yes
1427 2014-02-10 12:44:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|rfree: It's always detectable
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1429 2014-02-10 12:44:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But not everyone knows how to do it right, or how to safely resend an unconfirmed transaction
1430 2014-02-10 12:44:31 <maaku> but in systems like mtgox's, yes
1431 2014-02-10 12:45:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|if I send you a bitcoin, and tell you "I paid you, this is the txid", and you mutate the transaction and the modified version gets mined, you could come to me and say "that transaction never confirmed".
1432 2014-02-10 12:45:51 <gmaxwell> rfree: actually that attack situation is not realistic at all please see my recent post on bitcoin-development: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=CAAS2fgTx8UzQiocyNMfMNkt2uUZRTmhagb2BY9TPuAupVjVa2g%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=bitcoin-development
1433 2014-02-10 12:45:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|At that point, I can look and see that another version of the transaction got mined, and tell you "yes it did, but with that txid instead of this one"
1434 2014-02-10 12:45:59 <gmaxwell> rfree: please read that and tell me if its clear to you.
1435 2014-02-10 12:45:59 MT`BNC has left ()
1436 2014-02-10 12:46:11 <gmaxwell> (If not, lets talk through it so I learn to better explain it)
1437 2014-02-10 12:46:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Any system that's well-coded or has smart enough humans isn't vulnerable to this.
1438 2014-02-10 12:46:36 * FlawInMtGox picks up pitchfork and torch
1439 2014-02-10 12:46:42 <FlawInMtGox> CHARGE!
1440 2014-02-10 12:46:59 <gmaxwell> FlawInMtGox: not really helpful. :)
1441 2014-02-10 12:47:04 nfnty has joined
1442 2014-02-10 12:47:07 <FlawInMtGox> I'm sorry
1443 2014-02-10 12:47:20 <rfree> gmaxwell: ok
1444 2014-02-10 12:47:54 <FlawInMtGox> so Arson is not the solution?
1445 2014-02-10 12:47:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: "funds safe safe"?
1446 2014-02-10 12:48:01 <sipa> FlawInMtGox: please, stop it
1447 2014-02-10 12:48:03 * FlawInMtGox puts down the matches
1448 2014-02-10 12:48:08 <gmaxwell> MtGox is a part of the Bitcoin ecosystem. I'm not a fan of their press release— sure— but there is shared faith here. I want everyone to be successful and have great, easily maintained software, that lets them transact without constantly worrying about technical details. Pointing blame doesn't help.
1449 2014-02-10 12:48:39 <Ademan> I was actually curious, how many implementations of bitcoin nodes do we think exist?
1450 2014-02-10 12:48:54 <FlawInMtGox> It's MtGoX's fault though
1451 2014-02-10 12:48:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ademan: 3 or 4?
1452 2014-02-10 12:49:05 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: s/funds safe safe/funds-safe/
1453 2014-02-10 12:49:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ademan: I know there's Bitcoin Core
1454 2014-02-10 12:49:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Then there's btcd (?), the Go implementation
1455 2014-02-10 12:49:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I think bitcoinj has an experimental full node mode
1456 2014-02-10 12:49:38 <Ademan> bitcoind/bitcoin-qt, electrum, Go?, bitcoinj, blockchain.info, gox
1457 2014-02-10 12:49:54 <Ademan> dunno if armory implements its own full node
1458 2014-02-10 12:50:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Armory uses bitcoind in the background
1459 2014-02-10 12:50:10 <sipa> electrum is not a bitcoin node - it doesn't talk to the bitcoin network
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1462 2014-02-10 12:50:19 <Ademan> sipa: electrum supernodes are
1463 2014-02-10 12:50:20 <sipa> blockchain.info uses a mix of bitcoinj and bitcoinjs, iirc
1464 2014-02-10 12:50:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, yeah, maybe bc.i has a custom node
1465 2014-02-10 12:50:24 FlawInMtGox has quit (Quit: —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— 3.3 (November '11))
1466 2014-02-10 12:50:26 <sipa> Ademan: that's just bitcoind
1467 2014-02-10 12:50:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Gox uses bitcoind, IIRC
1468 2014-02-10 12:50:46 <sipa> you're all confusing different layers of the system
1469 2014-02-10 12:50:49 <hdkiller> bits of proof
1470 2014-02-10 12:50:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|They just have a custom wallet implementation, from what I've heard
1471 2014-02-10 12:51:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And Electrum  servers, I think, connect to bitcoind
1472 2014-02-10 12:51:04 <sipa> there's p2p protocol implementations, full node implementations, spv nodes, wallets, remote wallets
1473 2014-02-10 12:51:09 sontol has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1474 2014-02-10 12:51:26 <orweinberger> sipa, gmaxwell MtGox are saying that they're waiting for Bitcoin's core devs (you among others) to 'approve' their 'quick fix'. They say they're not trying to fix malleability but make sure it doesn't affect them or something.. Have you received such request?
1475 2014-02-10 12:51:28 FlawInMtGox has joined
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1477 2014-02-10 12:51:58 riplin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1478 2014-02-10 12:52:04 <sipa> orweinberger: i was talking to them about it
1479 2014-02-10 12:52:22 torokun has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1480 2014-02-10 12:52:37 <sipa> orweinberger: but the problem is not something at the protocol or client level... we just need some standard to unambiguously identify transactions
1481 2014-02-10 12:53:01 <sipa> just sent a mail to the dev list about it
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1483 2014-02-10 12:53:11 <Ademan> sipa: electrum supernodes talk with electrum clients through a custom protocol, are you saying the supernodes use bitcoind to participate in the network?
1484 2014-02-10 12:53:13 <orweinberger> sipa: Is it public?
1485 2014-02-10 12:53:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ademan: Pretty sure the answer is yes
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1487 2014-02-10 12:53:45 <sipa> Ademan: yes
1488 2014-02-10 12:53:47 <FlawInMtGox> hey gmaxwell
1489 2014-02-10 12:53:52 windtilt has left ()
1490 2014-02-10 12:53:52 <FlawInMtGox> I know how to fix it
1491 2014-02-10 12:53:53 derpaderp has joined
1492 2014-02-10 12:53:53 <FlawInMtGox> if ;;bug;; ;;blame;; $MTGoX
1493 2014-02-10 12:53:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ademan: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum-server/blob/master/README.md#features
1494 2014-02-10 12:53:59 <sipa> FlawInMtGox: get lost
1495 2014-02-10 12:54:08 <FlawInMtGox> no
1496 2014-02-10 12:54:12 <orweinberger> lol
1497 2014-02-10 12:54:18 FlawInMtGox is now known as Supa
1498 2014-02-10 12:54:43 * Ademan is unaware of any language with syntax like that
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1505 2014-02-10 12:55:56 <rfree> Subo1977: why law in mtgox was kicked from here, he seems to not spam here
1506 2014-02-10 12:56:07 <piuk> Is normtxid the official recommended short term fix?
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1509 2014-02-10 12:56:22 <sipa> piuk: it is my proposal, please comment
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1511 2014-02-10 12:56:28 <Subo1977> rfree: ??
1512 2014-02-10 12:56:34 <piuk> Should I add normtxid indexing to blockchain.info now?
1513 2014-02-10 12:56:59 <orweinberger> sipa: Is the mailing list public?
1514 2014-02-10 12:57:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Greetings, piuk
1515 2014-02-10 12:57:14 <sipa> piuk: that would pretty much instant raise it to an accepted standard... i'd like to see at least some opinions first :)
1516 2014-02-10 12:57:24 LeapingLennie has joined
1517 2014-02-10 12:57:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I assume you're aware how much pow- yeah, what sipa said
1518 2014-02-10 12:57:47 <piuk> sipa: ok
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1521 2014-02-10 12:58:11 <sipa> (hell, someone should actually verify whether it really hashes everything i think it does...)
1522 2014-02-10 12:58:28 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|, honestly, is mildly unnerved at the idea of one person/website having so much power...
1523 2014-02-10 12:58:35 yubrew has joined
1524 2014-02-10 12:58:38 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: me too
1525 2014-02-10 12:59:24 rdn has joined
1526 2014-02-10 13:00:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Especially considering that there's some misinformation on there re: "estimated confirmation time" and "confirmation queue" &c
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1528 2014-02-10 13:00:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And especially "from addresses"
1529 2014-02-10 13:00:47 <piuk> michagogo|cloud: It does say estimated
1530 2014-02-10 13:01:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, and that'd be great
1531 2014-02-10 13:01:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|if it were anywhere near accurate almost ever
1532 2014-02-10 13:01:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|:-/
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1537 2014-02-10 13:01:33 <piuk> michagogo|cloud: Yeah I agree but its not an easy thing to get right
1538 2014-02-10 13:01:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Correct.
1539 2014-02-10 13:01:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So just... don't/
1540 2014-02-10 13:01:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|s|/|.|
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1542 2014-02-10 13:02:48 <piuk> michagogo|cloud: Possibly it needs a rethink, but it can still be useful in some situations, transactions with incorrect fees etc
1543 2014-02-10 13:03:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I disagree
1544 2014-02-10 13:03:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Having a warning flag if the priority is very low could be useful, sure
1545 2014-02-10 13:04:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But "possibly never", while not technically *wrong* (it's true for any transaction, in fact) isn't really a good thing to label them as, IMHO
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1556 2014-02-10 13:13:58 <piuk> Can you use none optimal varint encoding in the same way as the PUSHDATA* op codes? In which case normtxid won't help.
1557 2014-02-10 13:14:38 <sipa> piuk: it will, as it doesn't hash the scriptSig
1558 2014-02-10 13:15:09 <sipa> suboptimal data pushing is a source of malleability, but it's covered
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1561 2014-02-10 13:15:51 <piuk> sipa: I meaning altering the Var Int of the "tx_in count" in the transaction serialisation.
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1563 2014-02-10 13:16:09 <sipa> piuk: transaction hashes are always computed on reserialized versions of the transaction
1564 2014-02-10 13:16:13 <sipa> piuk: so that's not a problem
1565 2014-02-10 13:16:40 <piuk> sipa: ok I see
1566 2014-02-10 13:18:04 <piuk> sipa: The spec needs to be clear that you must reserialize the transaction, not just blank the scriptSigs
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1568 2014-02-10 13:19:36 <sipa> piuk: well, that's implied (signature hashes and txids are always calculated that way), but yes, stressing it is a good idea
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1573 2014-02-10 13:24:51 <piuk> sipa: What about transaction lock_time, is it worth excluding that form the hash?
1574 2014-02-10 13:25:18 <petertodd> piuk: nLockTime is signed and can't be changed
1575 2014-02-10 13:25:18 <gmaxwell> piuk: why would we? it's not mutable.
1576 2014-02-10 13:25:22 <sipa> piuk: modifying the lock_time still requires the private key
1577 2014-02-10 13:25:31 <gmaxwell> piuk: thanks for your fast attention.
1578 2014-02-10 13:25:37 <piuk> Sorry yeah my mistake
1579 2014-02-10 13:25:42 <sipa> there is a broader issue of detecting whether one transaction "replaces" another
1580 2014-02-10 13:25:55 <sipa> but that's different from detecting just malleability
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1590 2014-02-10 13:29:43 <abrkn> sipa: so if a customer says he did not receive funds and we look up the txid on say blockchain.info, see nothing, we should check if the input has been spent by a tx with another hash?
1591 2014-02-10 13:30:04 <petertodd> abrkn: correct
1592 2014-02-10 13:30:20 <honeymonster> abrken: yes
1593 2014-02-10 13:30:29 orperelman has joined
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1595 2014-02-10 13:30:39 <abrkn> okay
1596 2014-02-10 13:30:49 andytoshi has joined
1597 2014-02-10 13:31:16 <petertodd> abrkn: a common way to describe this is to say that payment is complete not when the specific txid exists, but rather when a txout has been created with the customer's specified scriptPubKey and nValue, their address (preferably one-time-use!) and how much they withdrew
1598 2014-02-10 13:31:58 <sipa> in particular, you can just see this transaction in your own wallet - no need for using b.i
1599 2014-02-10 13:32:14 <petertodd> abrkn: that's why, for example, the payment protocol has the receiver specify one or more address/value pairs that the sender must make exist on the blockchain for the receiver to consider the payment complete; it *doesn't* work in terms of specific transactions
1600 2014-02-10 13:32:53 GaGu has joined
1601 2014-02-10 13:33:09 <sipa> yeah, as a receiver you don't care which coins are used to pay you
1602 2014-02-10 13:33:14 <sipa> just that you get them
1603 2014-02-10 13:34:07 <gmaxwell> abrkn: if you are going to reissue or cancel a transaction you _must_ double spend at least one of the prior inputs, regardless of if you see it spent or not. (well if you see it spent you can stop since the first tx went through. :) )
1604 2014-02-10 13:34:35 <gmaxwell> otherwise the original transaction could still go through in addition to your reissue.
1605 2014-02-10 13:34:47 <abrkn> right
1606 2014-02-10 13:36:00 <petertodd> abrkn: equally, remember that is *is* possible to reissue or cancel a transaction that is unconfirmed; I suspect if more implementations handled that case right we wouldn't be having these problems with malleability as handling one is a very similar problem to handling the other
1607 2014-02-10 13:37:20 <Emcy> heh i was just about to ask that
1608 2014-02-10 13:37:21 <petertodd> abrkn: in particularly, if a wallet implementation has support for canceling/reissuing it's own unconfirmed transactions, it's got the basic infrastructure to handle malleability
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1612 2014-02-10 13:41:40 <GaGu> Hi, does any guy know how to get the transaction info of others? Just like what blockchain.info do for us
1613 2014-02-10 13:42:12 <piuk> If bitcoin was redesigned then perhaps OutPoint's should reference a normtxid type hash? Or is there a reason this wouldn't work?
1614 2014-02-10 13:42:32 orperelman has joined
1615 2014-02-10 13:42:57 <petertodd> piuk: one approach is to reference H(COutPoint) and not re-use addresses, but that creates it's own edge cases (if you ever do re-use an address, a previous signature will be valid for it)
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1617 2014-02-10 13:43:34 <petertodd> piuk: having said that, for applications that *must* not be subject to malleability - certain mulit-party protocols - it's a very good approach
1618 2014-02-10 13:44:01 <sipa> i believe there may be some issues in using normtxid as reference, when combined with alternative sighash types
1619 2014-02-10 13:44:05 <sipa> just gut feeling
1620 2014-02-10 13:44:28 <petertodd> sipa: the way sighash works is that unfortunately new sighash types in a soft-fork are very tricky, to say the least
1621 2014-02-10 13:44:46 <sipa> heh, sure
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1623 2014-02-10 13:45:38 <abrkn> petertodd: how exactly do you cancel a tx? higher fee, send back to yourself?
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1625 2014-02-10 13:46:06 <thermoman> WalletUpdateSpent found spent coin 0.9949bc
1626 2014-02-10 13:46:07 <thermoman> CommitTransaction() : Error: Transaction not valid
1627 2014-02-10 13:46:07 <petertodd> sipa: point is, hashing scriptPubKey:vout is fine; or put another way blanking out the txid:n's in the vin, is fine, but just makes any address reuse potentially dangerous
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1629 2014-02-10 13:46:20 <thermoman> we have problems with this kind since today
1630 2014-02-10 13:47:09 <petertodd> abrkn: yup, although pretty much all nodes only ever accept the first tx spending a txout that they see
1631 2014-02-10 13:47:27 sbuddht has joined
1632 2014-02-10 13:47:58 <abrkn> petertodd: every time i think i understand how bitcoin works, i seem to have missed something
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1634 2014-02-10 13:49:08 <abrkn> how solid is bitcoinJ compared to bitcoind? in terms of not sending invalid txs
1635 2014-02-10 13:49:29 Xarikins has joined
1636 2014-02-10 13:51:09 <petertodd> abrkn: the bitcoinj devs are pretty competent, aside from some blind-spots
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1641 2014-02-10 13:52:50 <abrkn> i tried to understand the technical stuff about mtgox. were they attempting to spend block rewards too early? people were mining directly to their deposit address?
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1644 2014-02-10 13:53:06 <abrkn> i've seen on cryptsy or something that it says "dont mine to your deposit address"
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1648 2014-02-10 13:54:43 <sipa> abrkn: that's one problem
1649 2014-02-10 13:54:47 GaGu has joined
1650 2014-02-10 13:54:52 <sipa> but not the issue now
1651 2014-02-10 13:54:56 wallet42 has joined
1652 2014-02-10 13:55:23 <abrkn> sipa: i dont understand how being confused about tx hash is an issue. if the customer claims funds were not send, just check the destination address instead of looking up by hash?
1653 2014-02-10 13:55:53 <sipa> there's more to it than that
1654 2014-02-10 13:56:01 <abrkn> ok
1655 2014-02-10 13:56:14 <sipa> if you already spent change from that modified transaction, that dependent transaction won't confirm either
1656 2014-02-10 13:56:16 <abrkn> so if you receive a mining reward of 25 btc to an empty wallet (bitcoind) and try to send funds, what happens? -6?
1657 2014-02-10 13:56:34 <sipa> it will just say insufficient funds
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1660 2014-02-10 13:58:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The output isn't spendable until it gets 100 confirmations.
1661 2014-02-10 13:59:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|15:45:33 <abrkn> petertodd: how exactly do you cancel a tx? higher fee, send back to yourself?
1662 2014-02-10 13:59:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|To yourself, or to anywhere else
1663 2014-02-10 13:59:22 <GaGu> Is there any other bitcoin api besides its wiki?
1664 2014-02-10 13:59:52 <GaGu> I want to know how to get other address's details, such as balance/transactions
1665 2014-02-10 13:59:57 <GaGu> thanks！
1666 2014-02-10 14:00:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The only thing that can make a valid transaction invalid is its inputs becoming spent or non-existent
1667 2014-02-10 14:00:16 <abrkn> GaGu: theres some command line documentation when you run bitcoind help
1668 2014-02-10 14:00:19 <sipa> GaGu: bitcoin (the protocol) has no notion of addresses or balances
1669 2014-02-10 14:00:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|GaGu: if you have a 3-digit number of gigabytes free, check out Abe
1670 2014-02-10 14:00:27 Ninsei_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1671 2014-02-10 14:00:31 <sipa> GaGu: that's just how some services present it
1672 2014-02-10 14:01:08 tholenst has joined
1673 2014-02-10 14:01:13 <abrkn> is able just for dumping block chain into a db or can it run connected to the network?
1674 2014-02-10 14:01:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Look it up.
1675 2014-02-10 14:01:30 test456_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1676 2014-02-10 14:01:41 Ninsei_ has joined
1677 2014-02-10 14:01:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;lmgtfy bitcoin abe
1678 2014-02-10 14:01:46 <gribble> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bitcoin%20abe
1679 2014-02-10 14:01:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|^
1680 2014-02-10 14:02:45 magg0t has quit ()
1681 2014-02-10 14:03:15 rdymac has joined
1682 2014-02-10 14:03:21 <thermoman> what could be the cause for "AddToWallet ... new", followed by "WalletUpdateSpent found spent coin" and then "CommitTransaction() : Error: Transaction not valid" in the debug.log? it happens often today
1683 2014-02-10 14:03:57 <GaGu> Ok, thanks, I'll figure abe first
1684 2014-02-10 14:04:26 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1685 2014-02-10 14:05:32 honeymonster has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1686 2014-02-10 14:06:41 Neozonz has joined
1687 2014-02-10 14:08:40 <_alp_> petertodd:  what blindspots?
1688 2014-02-10 14:09:19 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1689 2014-02-10 14:09:40 <petertodd> _alp_: that there is a API to evaluate zeroconf transactions for likely hood of getting mined is insane for instance... zeroconf is not secure
1690 2014-02-10 14:09:42 rm_ has joined
1691 2014-02-10 14:11:20 dexX7 has joined
1692 2014-02-10 14:12:12 Tray_ has joined
1693 2014-02-10 14:13:29 swulf-- has joined
1694 2014-02-10 14:13:34 goodbtc has joined
1695 2014-02-10 14:13:43 <swulf--> is some mining pool modifying a bunch of transactions lately?
1696 2014-02-10 14:14:16 rm_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1697 2014-02-10 14:14:19 <sipa> thermoman: my guess... you're trying to spend change from an unconfirmed transaction that got mutated
1698 2014-02-10 14:15:01 <thermoman> is there anything we can do besided restarting this bitcoind client?
1699 2014-02-10 14:15:24 <sipa> i doubt restarting will help
1700 2014-02-10 14:15:39 <sipa> just waiting until you have confirmed inputs should solve it though
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1703 2014-02-10 14:16:40 <Emcy> how exactly does txn get mutated
1704 2014-02-10 14:16:47 <Emcy> someone has to do it deliberately right
1705 2014-02-10 14:16:51 <sipa> yes
1706 2014-02-10 14:17:07 <Emcy> what reason for doing so if not malicious?
1707 2014-02-10 14:17:21 <thermoman> sipa: if the tx is not committed it won't be automatically resend later, right?
1708 2014-02-10 14:17:43 <Luke-Jr> Emcy: *someone* has to do it deliberately, but it can be *anyone*, even unrelated to the transaction
1709 2014-02-10 14:18:04 <tholenst> It is most likely malicious, yes
1710 2014-02-10 14:18:35 <Emcy> Luke-Jr yes so the only reason for mutating a tx you see is trolling purposes?
1711 2014-02-10 14:18:59 <gmaxwell> well I did briefly propose making all nodes mutate transactions (convert them to canonical form)
1712 2014-02-10 14:19:18 <Emcy> why dont you guys put out a statement punting the issue on up to openssl :)
1713 2014-02-10 14:19:35 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1714 2014-02-10 14:19:55 <thermoman> sipa: the dev tells me for every transaction he tells the client to execute he also says that only inputs are used that have at least 6 confirmations
1715 2014-02-10 14:20:02 <petertodd> Emcy: Malleability is a attack only if the victim is unable to reconcile his accounts; that commonly leads to bankruptcy, even without Bitcoin.
1716 2014-02-10 14:20:06 <gmaxwell> openssl is only at fault for like 4 types out of 20 types of mutation. :P
1717 2014-02-10 14:20:11 <petertodd> Emcy: (paraphrasing grue)
1718 2014-02-10 14:20:16 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1719 2014-02-10 14:20:28 <tholenst> maybe it would be a good idea to relive that proposal, gmaxwell?
1720 2014-02-10 14:20:30 <Luke-Jr> Emcy: OpenSSL "fixing" this would cause problems for Bitcoin
1721 2014-02-10 14:20:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|16:09:35 <petertodd> _alp_: that there is a API to evaluate zeroconf transactions for likely hood of getting mined is insane for instance... zeroconf is not secure
1722 2014-02-10 14:20:42 <gmaxwell> tholenst: relive what proposal?
1723 2014-02-10 14:20:43 <Emcy> petertodd good point
1724 2014-02-10 14:20:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wait, there is?
1725 2014-02-10 14:20:56 <gmaxwell> oh mutate everything, meh
1726 2014-02-10 14:20:59 <tholenst> gmaxwell: that nodes canonicalize transactions
1727 2014-02-10 14:21:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is that what bc.i uses? I always thought it was their own invention
1728 2014-02-10 14:21:04 <gmaxwell> I worried it would cause some things to catch fire.
1729 2014-02-10 14:21:09 <gmaxwell> apparently it would have.
1730 2014-02-10 14:21:24 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: yup, based on things like "length of unconfirmed chain" and whether or not nLockTime is used...
1731 2014-02-10 14:21:25 wateratosthenes has quit (Quit: wateratosthenes)
1732 2014-02-10 14:21:34 Namworld has quit ()
1733 2014-02-10 14:21:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|OpenSSL "fixing" this would mean that we'd need to modify it
1734 2014-02-10 14:21:55 <tholenst> well, if you send out a canonical transaction, it would increase the probability that the transaction gets valid with the same txid
1735 2014-02-10 14:21:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Otherwise we get a fork
1736 2014-02-10 14:22:12 <Luke-Jr> tholenst: not necessarily
1737 2014-02-10 14:22:18 shesek has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1738 2014-02-10 14:23:09 bitjedi has joined
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1740 2014-02-10 14:23:29 <tholenst> well, in any case, it would not get rid of the problem 100%... so not useful to discuss now
1741 2014-02-10 14:23:54 topace has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1742 2014-02-10 14:24:01 <petertodd> tholenst: which is a good point: anything that doesn't get rid of it 100% may be more dangerous than not because people will write code that assumes the problem doesn't exist
1743 2014-02-10 14:24:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Not to mention the fact that an unknown number of other things that use OpenSSL would break
1744 2014-02-10 14:24:28 Tray_ has joined
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1748 2014-02-10 14:27:25 <Emcy> do you still plan to get rid of openssl at some point in the future
1749 2014-02-10 14:27:37 <sipa> i certainly want to
1750 2014-02-10 14:27:42 skinnkavaj has joined
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1752 2014-02-10 14:28:04 Hrumph has joined
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1754 2014-02-10 14:28:10 <Emcy> cos of stuff like this? and the speed issue?
1755 2014-02-10 14:28:17 <wumpus> Emcy: yes, openssl should not be necessary for transaction validation
1756 2014-02-10 14:28:21 breesy has joined
1757 2014-02-10 14:28:29 <Hrumph> yo i'm not here as a dev obviously (sorry about that)....some questions from a non-dev about last nights events
1758 2014-02-10 14:29:04 <Emcy> mtgox statement is a Carefully Worded Statement
1759 2014-02-10 14:29:19 <Hrumph> not specifically  i mean about gox's complaints about the protocol....will you devs and mark find a way to cooperate?
1760 2014-02-10 14:29:22 btcNeverSleeps has joined
1761 2014-02-10 14:29:47 <Luke-Jr> Emcy: we cannot just eliminate malleability
1762 2014-02-10 14:29:52 <Emcy> the mallebility flaw has been known about for years...everyone else is taking account of it except gox
1763 2014-02-10 14:30:00 <Luke-Jr> Emcy: any replacement for OpenSSL *must* support the same thing, right now.
1764 2014-02-10 14:30:02 andytoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1765 2014-02-10 14:30:06 <Emcy> they made it sound like the protocol is fundamentally flawed, its not
1766 2014-02-10 14:30:15 <Emcy> Luke-Jr i understand
1767 2014-02-10 14:30:25 <Luke-Jr> it is. just it's not a real problem for correct implementors
1768 2014-02-10 14:30:26 <Hrumph> Emcy: i understand that but all the same it sounds like they are holding out for some kind of change....
1769 2014-02-10 14:30:51 <Emcy> Hrumph thats exactly the feeling that their statment was crafted to evoke, imo
1770 2014-02-10 14:31:01 <Luke-Jr> yeah, it sounds like they're just suspending withdrawls until sipa's softfork goes live. which is stupid.
1771 2014-02-10 14:31:08 <Luke-Jr> since that won't fix their real problem
1772 2014-02-10 14:31:12 <Emcy> in any case, the quickest resolution for them is not to wait for the credevs to fix mallebility, thats fanciful
1773 2014-02-10 14:31:19 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: and will take a long time to happen...
1774 2014-02-10 14:31:27 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: agreed
1775 2014-02-10 14:31:35 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: they're very clearly talking about the stable-txid stuff there not mallebility fixes.
1776 2014-02-10 14:31:46 <sipa> Hrumph: they arw waiting for a standard for detecting transactions in a stable way
1777 2014-02-10 14:31:46 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't see how that is of ANY value to them
1778 2014-02-10 14:31:52 <sipa> Hrumph: it is not about a change
1779 2014-02-10 14:32:33 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's of modest value, but I think MagicalTux is confused about the implications. I think he thinks it will prevent theft. (the press release appears to claim this)
1780 2014-02-10 14:32:39 <Luke-Jr> sipa: "if it spends one of my UTXOs, it spends one of my UTXOs" is the only reliable way
1781 2014-02-10 14:33:11 <petertodd> the "stable txid" stuff proposed on the list still hashed txin txid's though; that's still malleable if you ever spend unconfirmed txouts (including your own)
1782 2014-02-10 14:33:22 <gmaxwell> e.g. consider cleaning up the current mess they have, code for getting stable txids would be very helpful for reconciling the accounting records.
1783 2014-02-10 14:33:22 <sipa> petertodd: yup
1784 2014-02-10 14:33:26 yubrew_ has joined
1785 2014-02-10 14:33:34 <CodeShark> if we're going to go that route, we should also remove all signatures from the transaction before signing
1786 2014-02-10 14:33:40 <CodeShark> err
1787 2014-02-10 14:33:42 <CodeShark> before hashing
1788 2014-02-10 14:33:47 <rfree> gmaxwell: what is the correct way now, for wallet like software to track if "given payment from wallet A to address B of amount X" was done
1789 2014-02-10 14:33:48 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: thats what it does.
1790 2014-02-10 14:33:53 <rfree> instead of txid
1791 2014-02-10 14:33:56 <sipa> CodeShark: that's exactly what is being proposed
1792 2014-02-10 14:34:03 <gmaxwell> rfree: tracking "was done" is fundimentally wrong.
1793 2014-02-10 14:34:06 <petertodd> CodeShark: no, actually you'd remove the txin txid's, and replace them with H(CTxOutPoint) instead
1794 2014-02-10 14:34:09 <_alp_> emcy: how is everyone else taking account for it?  Not assuming that things are unchanged til in the chain?
1795 2014-02-10 14:34:09 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: not possible on the protocol level without a hardfork, otherwise it'd be done long ago IMO
1796 2014-02-10 14:34:09 <CodeShark> lol, I proposed that months ago :p
1797 2014-02-10 14:34:24 <gmaxwell> rfree: because it might be "was not done" now, and you reissue, and then it happens an hour later and you've paid twice.
1798 2014-02-10 14:34:25 n1c has quit (Quit: lol)
1799 2014-02-10 14:34:36 <Emcy> Hrumph as you can see its more complicated than "were sitting here waiting for the coredevs" impression gox statement gives
1800 2014-02-10 14:34:36 caktux_ has joined
1801 2014-02-10 14:34:49 <petertodd> CodeShark: and more subtelty, hash the scriptPubKey in that CTxOut taking OP_CODESEPARATOR into account...
1802 2014-02-10 14:34:55 <sipa> CodeShark: there is nothing new here
1803 2014-02-10 14:35:05 <sipa> CodeShark: just people suddenly paying attention
1804 2014-02-10 14:35:13 <rfree> gmaxwell: I know, I mean you should then just keep sending same transaction untill it's accepted. But I was asking, how to know when it was accepted
1805 2014-02-10 14:35:28 <gmaxwell> rfree: no thats not what I'm saying.
1806 2014-02-10 14:35:42 <Emcy> _alp_ i assume other services are able to take account of mallebility because they dont seem to ahve worked themselves up in knots over it like gox has?
1807 2014-02-10 14:35:58 <gmaxwell> rfree: find someone in #bitcoin who can explain this post to you: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=CAAS2fgTx8UzQiocyNMfMNkt2uUZRTmhagb2BY9TPuAupVjVa2g%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=bitcoin-development
1808 2014-02-10 14:36:10 Imbue has quit (Quit: Imbue)
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1813 2014-02-10 14:36:59 <rfree> gmaxwell: yes I understand the general mechniams of attack - I am asking *what they should do*, what is the proper way
1814 2014-02-10 14:37:33 <CodeShark> we don't even need to change the protocol, fundamentally - it is sufficient that the wallet API be able to provide a unique hash that does not depend on malleability and for the transaction alert service to be able to filter on outpoints
1815 2014-02-10 14:37:39 <Luke-Jr> rfree: not send Joe his withdrawl twice.
1816 2014-02-10 14:37:57 <sipa> CodeShark: agree
1817 2014-02-10 14:37:59 <rfree> Luke-Jr: sure, and how should they check if Joe got his withdrawal (even mutated)
1818 2014-02-10 14:38:03 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: MtGox doesn't use the wallet API
1819 2014-02-10 14:38:04 shesek has joined
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1821 2014-02-10 14:38:06 <CodeShark> I already have said implementation
1822 2014-02-10 14:38:17 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: or bitcoind at all, really
1823 2014-02-10 14:38:23 <gmaxwell> rfree: you clearly do not, because I explain in that post what is done in order to do a cancelation or reissue.  But I was not addressing a lay audience, thats why I suggested you find someone to help you understand because I do not have time now and this is not the place.
1824 2014-02-10 14:38:27 <CodeShark> I'm not talking about bitcoind's wallet API
1825 2014-02-10 14:38:34 <sipa> CodeShark: except that doesn't work across across multiple transactions
1826 2014-02-10 14:38:41 <CodeShark> nobody in their right mind would use the bitcoind wallet to run a business
1827 2014-02-10 14:38:58 WilsonNL has joined
1828 2014-02-10 14:39:01 <Luke-Jr> rfree: when the transaction is confirmed, the UTXO spent is spent in the blockchain
1829 2014-02-10 14:39:12 <wumpus> nobody in their right mind would use the bitcoind wallet  *full stop* *ducks* :)
1830 2014-02-10 14:39:17 <CodeShark> lol
1831 2014-02-10 14:39:19 gingpark1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1832 2014-02-10 14:39:28 <abrkn> CodeShark: why not bitcoind?
1833 2014-02-10 14:39:29 <wallet42> sipa: are there other changes planned for v3?
1834 2014-02-10 14:39:30 <Luke-Jr> sipa: IMO, the non-malleable hash should ideally take into account ANYONECANPAY situations
1835 2014-02-10 14:39:49 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i wanted that first
1836 2014-02-10 14:40:08 <CodeShark> abrkn, bitcoind is fine for connecting to the p2p network and validating transactions and blocks - the wallet API is fundamentally not designed to scale to the needs of an enterprise
1837 2014-02-10 14:40:10 <Luke-Jr> sipa: eg, hash only the first input, and maybe outputs
1838 2014-02-10 14:40:11 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: hence why to do it on scriptPubKey:nValue
1839 2014-02-10 14:40:29 <Luke-Jr> first input txout
1840 2014-02-10 14:40:42 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: anyonecanpay allows input order to be reordered
1841 2014-02-10 14:40:44 Jankxed has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1842 2014-02-10 14:40:51 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: ah, crap, right
1843 2014-02-10 14:40:56 <gmaxwell> scriptPubKey:nValue is no good, some spends of equal but differnet inputs are NOT THE SAME.
1844 2014-02-10 14:41:06 <Luke-Jr> sPK:Value works as long as people don't reuse addresses..
1845 2014-02-10 14:41:11 <gmaxwell> you need the uniqueness the input txid have,
1846 2014-02-10 14:41:15 <Luke-Jr> heck, even sPK is sufficient there
1847 2014-02-10 14:41:38 <sipa> of course, it could be doe recursively
1848 2014-02-10 14:41:42 <wallet42> I remember armaory complaining about the value amount of an input not being signed
1849 2014-02-10 14:41:48 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1850 2014-02-10 14:41:52 <gmaxwell> sipa: exponential complexity.
1851 2014-02-10 14:41:52 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: yup, which I think suggests that unless you're working in a way that handles that case properly, you can't get a stable txid
1852 2014-02-10 14:42:05 tjopper has joined
1853 2014-02-10 14:42:06 <Luke-Jr> we *could* make this new standard dependent on non-address-reuse? :P
1854 2014-02-10 14:42:12 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: yes
1855 2014-02-10 14:42:15 breesy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1856 2014-02-10 14:42:29 <gmaxwell> please step away from the crack pipe.
1857 2014-02-10 14:42:34 <wallet42> +1 for no address reuse
1858 2014-02-10 14:42:35 <sipa> :D
1859 2014-02-10 14:42:36 <wallet42> :D
1860 2014-02-10 14:42:40 <gmaxwell> crap I think this stable id thing is doomed.
1861 2014-02-10 14:42:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: exactly, it is doomed and there's nothing that can be done about it
1862 2014-02-10 14:42:52 Jankxed has joined
1863 2014-02-10 14:42:53 Starduster has joined
1864 2014-02-10 14:42:54 <gmaxwell> so much for a nice pretextual fix.
1865 2014-02-10 14:43:17 <petertodd> gmaxwell: for applications that *must* have mutability fixed, accept the risks of signatures over the sriptPubKey:nValue
1866 2014-02-10 14:43:24 <wallet42> gmaxwell: what do u mean by pretextual fix?
1867 2014-02-10 14:43:40 <sipa> gmaxwell: please comment about it then
1868 2014-02-10 14:44:25 <gmaxwell> wallet42: mtgox's problem with theft exposure is that they didn't use the required practices for safely canceling and reissuing transactions (double spending inputs). Mutability is really irrelevant to that case beyond complicating figuring out what happened.
1869 2014-02-10 14:44:53 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1870 2014-02-10 14:45:02 <Emcy> perhaps silly question.......why the emergency action after what happened to mtgox?
1871 2014-02-10 14:45:04 WhatIsGoingOn84 has joined
1872 2014-02-10 14:45:07 <Emcy> nothing has really changed, right
1873 2014-02-10 14:45:23 <Emcy> why this emergency stopgap thing
1874 2014-02-10 14:45:29 <wumpus> there is no 'emergency action'... just a lot of focus on one issue suddenly
1875 2014-02-10 14:45:36 <Luke-Jr> ^
1876 2014-02-10 14:45:50 <Emcy> thats what i mean.....nothing is actually different
1877 2014-02-10 14:45:58 <Subo1977> all waiting for a quick&dirty fix :-)
1878 2014-02-10 14:46:07 ThomasV has joined
1879 2014-02-10 14:46:15 <sipa> we're also not going to do an emergency release of bitcoin or something
1880 2014-02-10 14:46:20 <wumpus> there is no rush to fix or change anything (beyond mtgox itself)
1881 2014-02-10 14:46:22 BNCatDIGISHELL has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1882 2014-02-10 14:46:24 <Emcy> its just that it happened to gox and pulled a huge black swan
1883 2014-02-10 14:46:34 <sipa> mtgox calls us out on defining a standard for something they could do tuemself
1884 2014-02-10 14:46:35 tromp has joined
1885 2014-02-10 14:46:38 <sipa> fine
1886 2014-02-10 14:46:52 <Emcy> just seems a bit reactionary
1887 2014-02-10 14:46:52 <sipa> *themselves
1888 2014-02-10 14:46:55 <wumpus> a standard for a stable txid would be nice to have, but it needs to be perfect in one go, not rushed
1889 2014-02-10 14:46:58 andytoshi has joined
1890 2014-02-10 14:47:03 anamous has joined
1891 2014-02-10 14:47:08 <GaGu> Hi guys, I'm study Abe, does it support testnet3?
1892 2014-02-10 14:47:28 <petertodd> wumpus: indeed, and I'm convinced you can't actually do that without CHECKSIG changes
1893 2014-02-10 14:47:39 <petertodd> wumpus: and those CHECKSIG changes introduce their own risks
1894 2014-02-10 14:47:54 <gmaxwell> oh wait maybe its not doomed.
1895 2014-02-10 14:47:59 WilsonNL has left ()
1896 2014-02-10 14:48:02 <petertodd> ?
1897 2014-02-10 14:48:02 <wumpus> petertodd: I mean what if we define a 'stable txid' and it turns out to not be really stable after all, that will be worse than what we have now
1898 2014-02-10 14:48:09 <gmaxwell> mutating the parent doesn't break it, it just makes the child invalid.
1899 2014-02-10 14:48:12 GFizzle has quit ()
1900 2014-02-10 14:48:46 <wumpus> CHECKSIG changes? change the scripting language? oh no
1901 2014-02-10 14:48:47 <gmaxwell> wumpus: well that was the reason for approach that based it on the sighash stuff, a lot more likely to get right.
1902 2014-02-10 14:48:58 <petertodd> gmaxwell: the point of a stable txid is so you can identify multiple unconfirmed txs is my understanding
1903 2014-02-10 14:49:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: the stable txid is fine as long as you're spending only confirmed inputs
1904 2014-02-10 14:49:14 <petertodd> gmaxwell: and even tx's spending confirmed inputs can be mutated in a reorg
1905 2014-02-10 14:49:19 Tray_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1906 2014-02-10 14:49:21 wilsonNL has joined
1907 2014-02-10 14:49:23 <sipa> if the inputs can be mutated, nothing is safe :)
1908 2014-02-10 14:49:26 wilsonNL has left ()
1909 2014-02-10 14:49:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: lets assume you spend unconfirmed ones, the only risk there is your txn gets invalidated, it doesn't make the id unstable.
1910 2014-02-10 14:49:38 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, so stable txid can pretty much work provided you only ever spend deeply confirmed inputs
1911 2014-02-10 14:49:59 <petertodd> sipa: and really, just make the stable txid for accounting purposes be based on scriptPubKey:nvalue hashes in that case
1912 2014-02-10 14:50:05 <gmaxwell> petertodd: they cannot be.
1913 2014-02-10 14:50:09 <gmaxwell> they can be invalidated.
1914 2014-02-10 14:50:21 <gmaxwell> y'all made me stupid for a minute but I'm back to fix you.
1915 2014-02-10 14:50:32 <Luke-Jr> giving people a stable txid makes them *more* likely to make MtGox's mistake
1916 2014-02-10 14:50:33 <tjopper> lol
1917 2014-02-10 14:50:39 <Luke-Jr> and the stable txid doesn't *fix* MtGox's problems
1918 2014-02-10 14:50:41 <Luke-Jr> so..
1919 2014-02-10 14:50:41 <petertodd> gmaxwell: explain
1920 2014-02-10 14:51:15 wilsonNL has joined
1921 2014-02-10 14:51:18 <wilsonNL> hello
1922 2014-02-10 14:51:31 <lianj> its not really a protocol issue, right? i think even if the protocol changes, someone should clarify that its only to preventively protect wallet implementations doing the wrong thing
1923 2014-02-10 14:51:35 <wilsonNL> can someone help me out with some compiling issues on osx 10.9.1
1924 2014-02-10 14:51:42 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: well a unique identifier for a transaction would be useful, but yeah it does not solve mtgox's issue in itself, only properly 'canceling' old transactions by double-spending them does
1925 2014-02-10 14:51:55 diegofv has joined
1926 2014-02-10 14:52:15 <sipa> the only purpose of such a stable txid is for helpdesk purposes, for quickly figiring out if a transaction went through or not
1927 2014-02-10 14:52:16 davout has quit (Quit: kthxbye)
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1929 2014-02-10 14:52:20 <petertodd> wumpus: and we *have* a unique identifier for a transaction from an *accounting* perspective, which is the txout(s) it pays
1930 2014-02-10 14:52:31 <sipa> it shouldn't be necessary
1931 2014-02-10 14:52:35 Jankxed has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1932 2014-02-10 14:52:48 <sipa> and it doesn't solve everything
1933 2014-02-10 14:52:51 <GaGu> How many space will abe spend? anybody know?
1934 2014-02-10 14:52:54 <Luke-Jr> lianj: speaking of which, can you confirm Coinbase doesn't have a similar problem?
1935 2014-02-10 14:53:00 <sipa> GaGu: hundreds of gb
1936 2014-02-10 14:53:01 <petertodd> sipa: I just mean for helpdesk the question is "ok, was there a payment paying address f with value y?"
1937 2014-02-10 14:53:06 Jankxed has joined
1938 2014-02-10 14:53:24 <wumpus> petertodd: don't forget *signed by us*, there may be another payment to the address
1939 2014-02-10 14:53:30 <wilsonNL> anyone know what to do to fix: "Undefined symbols for architecture x86_64" on osx?
1940 2014-02-10 14:53:50 <wumpus> petertodd: but I agree, the output should be enough
1941 2014-02-10 14:53:53 <petertodd> wumpus: yes, which is why the slightly more advanced version includes the txin scriptPubKey:nValue
1942 2014-02-10 14:53:54 <piuk> Bitcoin-Qt doesn't index by scriptPubKey:nvalue so every merchant needs a seperate db?
1943 2014-02-10 14:54:17 <petertodd> wumpus: only your software screwing up can duplicate a tx with that set of script
1944 2014-02-10 14:54:18 <wumpus> piuk: well it would only need to index the wallet by that, no big deal
1945 2014-02-10 14:54:23 jbitcm- has joined
1946 2014-02-10 14:54:26 <petertodd> wumpus: scriptPubKey:nValue inputs and outputs
1947 2014-02-10 14:54:39 <GaGu> houndreds G .......
1948 2014-02-10 14:54:46 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: addresses are single use; we don't *have* to support reuse
1949 2014-02-10 14:54:51 <sipa> wumpus: then you will only be able to compute it for outgoing transactions
1950 2014-02-10 14:55:00 <sipa> wumpus: whichbis useless
1951 2014-02-10 14:55:04 <GaGu> How about testnet? hundreds G too?
1952 2014-02-10 14:55:19 <petertodd> wumpus: whether or not you make that into a CHECKSIG signature hash mode is a separate issue; for online wallets like Mt. Gox they can always re-issue transactions if ones "in-flight" get mutated and confirmed ina block
1953 2014-02-10 14:55:21 <Luke-Jr> piuk: B-Qt *does* record the modified transaction
1954 2014-02-10 14:55:53 pierreatwork has joined
1955 2014-02-10 14:56:00 <petertodd> wumpus: basically your wallet becomes a series of "I wanted to pay address ABC with value XYZ" records, along with the one-time-use-only addresses you used to do it
1956 2014-02-10 14:56:08 Subo1977 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1957 2014-02-10 14:56:30 <wumpus> petertodd: hm right
1958 2014-02-10 14:56:44 <petertodd> wumpus: and you handle address re-use specially with "ok, we let this one confirm for 10 blocks, and we'll reference it by txid:n"
1959 2014-02-10 14:57:01 <sipa> how about we make this the simplest possible approach, and just try to make malleability impossible in a year or maybe two?
1960 2014-02-10 14:57:13 Gagu_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1961 2014-02-10 14:57:20 <petertodd> sipa: because I see no way of doing that with the current transaction format that is reliable
1962 2014-02-10 14:57:46 <petertodd> sipa: in the meantime software has to have lots of lines of code written to handle the existing case that malleability is possible
1963 2014-02-10 14:57:53 <da2ce7> mtgox need to detect track that a transaction may have more than one hash value (sending hash, then block hash), of course in re-org it may change again.
1964 2014-02-10 14:58:19 andytoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1965 2014-02-10 14:58:38 <sipa> petertodd: unsure that killing malleability is impossible
1966 2014-02-10 14:59:15 <petertodd> sipa: it's a game of whack-a-mole, and if you get it wrong you're back to square one, and relying on it makes all kinds of transaction forms tricky to use
1967 2014-02-10 14:59:15 <sipa> assuming the sender doesn't do something to intentionally evade it
1968 2014-02-10 14:59:24 rm_ has joined
1969 2014-02-10 14:59:27 <petertodd> sipa: indeed, which is a problem in the reorg case for instance...
1970 2014-02-10 14:59:35 <sipa> ?
1971 2014-02-10 14:59:37 nfnty has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1972 2014-02-10 14:59:40 cagedwisdom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1973 2014-02-10 14:59:53 Hawkix has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1974 2014-02-10 15:00:21 Subo1977 has joined
1975 2014-02-10 15:00:25 <petertodd> sipa: say I send you some funds, but my tx was done in a way that is malleable; you spend those funds to another customer after n confirms; the network reorgs n+1 blocks and the tx is mutated. I still paid you, but your software, assuming non-malleability, just blew up.
1976 2014-02-10 15:00:28 melvster has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1977 2014-02-10 15:00:33 yubrew has quit ()
1978 2014-02-10 15:00:57 <petertodd> sipa: fact is we have a better ecosystem overall if people just do it right, which could be important if large reorgs become more commen, e.g. because mining reward is dropping
1979 2014-02-10 15:01:00 Ursium has joined
1980 2014-02-10 15:01:20 <petertodd> sipa: IMO what we should do is write a "this is how wallets are supposed to handle malleability" BIP...
1981 2014-02-10 15:01:51 ruggo5 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1982 2014-02-10 15:01:56 super3 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1983 2014-02-10 15:02:16 melvster has joined
1984 2014-02-10 15:02:30 <tromp> does malleability include dropping tx ouputs (changing them into tx fees) ?
1985 2014-02-10 15:02:31 yubrew has joined
1986 2014-02-10 15:02:44 <wumpus> petertodd: sounds like a good idea
1987 2014-02-10 15:02:51 Cyb3rR4t has joined
1988 2014-02-10 15:03:07 <wumpus> tromp: no, you can't drop tx outputs without invalidating the signature
1989 2014-02-10 15:03:13 <petertodd> wumpus: yup, IMO doing it right isn't all that hard, it's just not obvious to people that you need to do it that way
1990 2014-02-10 15:04:17 <Luke-Jr> anyhow, any kind of solution needs to either exclude address reuse, or exclude CoinJoin-type transactions
1991 2014-02-10 15:04:44 <Luke-Jr> IMO the former is already not proper, so should be excluded
1992 2014-02-10 15:05:03 <tromp> wumpus: is this tx signature described anywhere on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification ? i don't see it...
1993 2014-02-10 15:05:12 <wumpus> tromp: no clue
1994 2014-02-10 15:05:19 Guest47055 has joined
1995 2014-02-10 15:05:52 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: excellent point, and handling coinjoin well means you can handle having to re-issue tx's
1996 2014-02-10 15:05:57 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
1997 2014-02-10 15:06:13 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I agree that address reuse should go away, but changing that is even harder than changing the malleability rules
1998 2014-02-10 15:06:51 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: sure, but we don't need to add a new feature that goes out of its way to eanble it
1999 2014-02-10 15:06:55 <petertodd> wumpus: for a wallet changing it is easy; from the point of view of the malleability problem the solutions only require *you* to not reuse addresses, not others
2000 2014-02-10 15:07:01 diegofv has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2001 2014-02-10 15:07:04 <petertodd> wumpus: (e.g. not reusing addrs for change is the important part)
2002 2014-02-10 15:07:19 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you are smoking moon rocks in mixing address reuse in this.
2003 2014-02-10 15:07:35 <gmaxwell> You've still not answered my prior argument that mutation of parents does not break sipa's IDs.
2004 2014-02-10 15:07:36 <petertodd> gmaxwell: no I'm not
2005 2014-02-10 15:07:38 drayah has joined
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2007 2014-02-10 15:08:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: it does break them from the point of view that the reason mt gox has a problem is because they were dealing with unconfirmed strings of transactions
2008 2014-02-10 15:08:31 <gmaxwell> what. no they werent'.
2009 2014-02-10 15:08:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: and I answered it that from the wallet accounting point of view, not re-using addresses, and tracking addr in/out sets, is the way to go
2010 2014-02-10 15:09:00 <gmaxwell> their problem is that they were reissuing 'stuck' transactions. which weren't really stuck, using totally distinct txins.
2011 2014-02-10 15:09:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: well, mt.gox had a especially stupid version because they weren't scanning the chain for new payments to addrs they owned...
2012 2014-02-10 15:09:34 <petertodd> gmaxwell: explain again?
2013 2014-02-10 15:10:16 <gmaxwell> you withdraw from mtgox. transaction mutates and gets mined. You whine at mtgox support. System says it hasn't gone through yet, so they issue you a new transaction.
2014 2014-02-10 15:10:24 <gmaxwell> now you're paid twice.
2015 2014-02-10 15:10:35 <gmaxwell> (and all the varations on the sequence of events there with the same outcome
2016 2014-02-10 15:10:37 dvide has joined
2017 2014-02-10 15:10:38 <gmaxwell> )
2018 2014-02-10 15:10:38 <petertodd> yes, and my approach of hashing the addres in and out fixes that
2019 2014-02-10 15:11:00 <gmaxwell> (1) No it doesn't. and (2) no more than sipa's hash.
2020 2014-02-10 15:11:20 <gmaxwell> (1) because duh, say the mutation never happened, they're still fucked because they didn't doublespend the inputs.
2021 2014-02-10 15:11:20 lophie has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2022 2014-02-10 15:11:30 <petertodd> yes it does, they can uniquely identify the transaction, and b: sipa's hash screws up when you want to make more than one unconfirmed
2023 2014-02-10 15:11:31 <gmaxwell> (and if they did they're fine even with undetected mutation)
2024 2014-02-10 15:11:34 <wumpus> no amount of stable txid will change the fact that issueing a new transaction when the old one doesn't go through a bad idea in general
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2027 2014-02-10 15:11:57 <wumpus> why would the new transaction have a higher chance of being mined?
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2030 2014-02-10 15:12:21 <gmaxwell> wumpus: in goxes case because they were making transactions that had non-canonical signatures, (padded r,s)
2031 2014-02-10 15:12:23 <wumpus> I don't think I understand it anymore. Why would you want to re-send a bitcoin transaction using different inputs?
2032 2014-02-10 15:12:29 <gmaxwell> but it would happen by chance regardless.
2033 2014-02-10 15:12:32 <petertodd> gmaxwell: remember that I'm saying to hash *all* the txin scriptPubKey's, whcih allows you to always handle accidental address reuse by adding in a single-use txout
2034 2014-02-10 15:12:40 <wumpus> but why not rebroadcast the same transaction?
2035 2014-02-10 15:12:59 Imbue has joined
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2037 2014-02-10 15:13:03 <petertodd> wumpus: exactly! because either you can do that, *or* the inputs have been mutated, which breaks sipa's original "stable id" hash
2038 2014-02-10 15:13:13 <gmaxwell> wumpus: because you just spent N months dealing with transactions that wouldn't confirm because you were spending immature coinbases and you didn't know why?  You've got me.
2039 2014-02-10 15:13:24 <gmaxwell> petertodd: chill out for a second.
2040 2014-02-10 15:13:38 <gmaxwell> wumpus: just to make it sane: to increase the fee.
2041 2014-02-10 15:13:42 benrcole1 has joined
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2043 2014-02-10 15:14:06 Matt_von_Mises has joined
2044 2014-02-10 15:14:16 <wumpus> gmaxwell: right, to increase the fee, that's a use case...
2045 2014-02-10 15:14:19 rubensayshi has joined
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2047 2014-02-10 15:14:31 <gmaxwell> petertodd: okay back to you. The situation I'm decribing is completely unsafe even in a world with no mutation at all.
2048 2014-02-10 15:14:31 <wumpus> gmaxwell: and in that case you want to use the same inputs
2049 2014-02-10 15:14:36 <gmaxwell> unless you ^
2050 2014-02-10 15:14:43 <wumpus> (or more)
2051 2014-02-10 15:14:59 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yes, I know that, what mt gox was doing was braindead on a lot of levels
2052 2014-02-10 15:15:02 <gmaxwell> once you do that, none of this mutation stuff matters from a safty perspective.
2053 2014-02-10 15:15:19 malad has joined
2054 2014-02-10 15:15:25 Framedragger has joined
2055 2014-02-10 15:15:31 <gmaxwell> making your records sane, making tech support useful, sure, but not losing funds.   just trying to box the application here.
2056 2014-02-10 15:15:44 semantical has joined
2057 2014-02-10 15:15:48 <wumpus> right
2058 2014-02-10 15:15:49 <gmaxwell> Mtgox's most serious issue can't be solved by anything related to mutability as far as I can tell.
2059 2014-02-10 15:15:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: my point is sipa's txid's mutate in more cases than my addr-based-txids mutate
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2062 2014-02-10 15:16:08 <gmaxwell> petertodd: his never mutate without the signer resigning.
2063 2014-02-10 15:16:12 <gmaxwell> so lets address that.
2064 2014-02-10 15:16:46 <gmaxwell> You have a transaction A, which is spent by B which has a sipahash of X.   How do you make the sipahash mutate?
2065 2014-02-10 15:17:02 <gmaxwell> (all unconfirmed)
2066 2014-02-10 15:17:08 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yes they do, because the tx being spent can mutate, rendering the stable txid useless, which equally screws up the accounting records because now it's unclear how to reissue the transaction
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2070 2014-02-10 15:17:31 <sipa> but the issue remains with or without stable txid: you need to dea with reissuing
2071 2014-02-10 15:17:35 <sipa> you, and nobody else
2072 2014-02-10 15:17:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell: what I'm saying is my txids allow you to always make the sequence of transactions you want to happen, happen eventually, so the helpdesk can keep giving the same answere to the customer as to what txids they should be looking for
2073 2014-02-10 15:17:44 agricocb has joined
2074 2014-02-10 15:18:00 <gmaxwell> petertodd: so you mutate A,  and now B is invalid ... thats true without ever invoking the sipahash, the sipahash hasn't changed it just refers to something irrelevant.
2075 2014-02-10 15:18:18 rfree has joined
2076 2014-02-10 15:18:19 <gmaxwell> petertodd: except they can't since the sane application of a reissue is to do something like increase the fee.
2077 2014-02-10 15:18:23 <petertodd> gmaxwell: exactly, which is bad from a helpdesk point of view, because mt.gox still needs to make the transaction happen and make the customer happy
2078 2014-02-10 15:18:43 <Matt_von_Mises> I've linked to libdb_cxx-4.8.so but the shared library doesn't seem to work. I'm getting "ERROR: CDB() : error Invalid argument (22) opening database environment" So where can I get a compatible libdb_cxx-4.8.so?
2079 2014-02-10 15:18:59 <gmaxwell> (fwiw, mtgox doesn't appear to spend its unconfirmed change (looking at block history))
2080 2014-02-10 15:19:10 <Matt_von_Mises> db5.1 works but obviously you're not supposed to use that due to compatibility issues with the wallet.
2081 2014-02-10 15:19:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yes, and if you want to do fee increases, pick something more specific for exactly what was being hashed re: scriptPubKey's, point is, if you avoid address reuse it's easy to set things up so that txid is stable even with various changes
2082 2014-02-10 15:19:19 <tholenst> Do I understand this right? The sipahash is *exactly* the hash of all strings which are signed by OpenSSL?
2083 2014-02-10 15:19:24 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: your wallet has already been tainted, you can only use 5 now.
2084 2014-02-10 15:19:27 <sipa> tholenst: not really
2085 2014-02-10 15:19:36 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2086 2014-02-10 15:19:37 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell: This is a clean isntallation.
2087 2014-02-10 15:19:38 hmsimha has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2088 2014-02-10 15:19:43 <tholenst> oh i need to re-read then
2089 2014-02-10 15:20:03 <sipa> but it's very close, assuming standard sighash flags
2090 2014-02-10 15:20:04 Cocodude has joined
2091 2014-02-10 15:20:06 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell: This is during when the data directory is made.
2092 2014-02-10 15:20:18 <gmaxwell> weird.
2093 2014-02-10 15:20:28 <tholenst> wouldn't you want to make it exactly? You wouldn't have to worry about it then
2094 2014-02-10 15:20:55 <tholenst> hm, i can't really comment on it since i don't understand the sighash flags sufficiently
2095 2014-02-10 15:21:06 jbitcm-_ has joined
2096 2014-02-10 15:21:14 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell: I've verified that the executable has been linked to 4.8. I think my 4.8 shared library is broken. I don't know where to download a working one.
2097 2014-02-10 15:21:14 khalahan_ has quit (Client Quit)
2098 2014-02-10 15:21:19 <sipa> tholenst: the only difference (ignoring sighash flags) is that signature hashes need to previous output being spent to be computed
2099 2014-02-10 15:21:28 <sipa> tholenst: that's a major burden on computing stable hashes
2100 2014-02-10 15:21:35 <sipa> and unnecessary for this purpose
2101 2014-02-10 15:21:49 <gmaxwell> petertodd: if you're assuming no address reuse the 'customer friendly stable txid' is just the address being paid.
2102 2014-02-10 15:21:51 <sipa> (well, petertodd's proposed hashing does include it, for different purposes)
2103 2014-02-10 15:22:02 <petertodd> gmaxwell: no, because that requires the customer to not reuse addresses
2104 2014-02-10 15:22:10 jbitcm- has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2105 2014-02-10 15:22:13 cagedwisdom has joined
2106 2014-02-10 15:22:26 <Cocodude> Hello. I run a Bitcoin exchange in the UK and have noticed a strange issue where double spends have started occurring. Is there a known exploit/bad node on the network that's somehow taking advantage of the malleable transaction thingie? I don't auto-resend in any way but I have seen extra funds come out of "" which is weird.
2107 2014-02-10 15:22:45 <sipa> Cocodude: yes, ignore it
2108 2014-02-10 15:23:17 <sipa> they are not really double spends, just mutated transactions
2109 2014-02-10 15:23:20 khalahan has joined
2110 2014-02-10 15:23:21 <sipa> (presumably)
2111 2014-02-10 15:23:33 <gmaxwell> petertodd: so how do you propose being stable to increasing fees? but no dependency on the customer not reusing addresses?
2112 2014-02-10 15:23:35 <Cocodude> sipa: Yeah that's what I was hoping. I do see both txns in blockchain.info but naturally only one with confirmations
2113 2014-02-10 15:23:38 <sipa> double spends would require you to sign two conflicting transctions
2114 2014-02-10 15:23:39 jgarzik has joined
2115 2014-02-10 15:23:50 <Cocodude> sipa: Sorry, you're right, I don't mean that
2116 2014-02-10 15:24:10 <Cocodude> So are there some dodgy nodes on the network doing funky things at the moment?
2117 2014-02-10 15:24:15 <sipa> presumably
2118 2014-02-10 15:24:20 <sipa> you're not the first to notice
2119 2014-02-10 15:24:30 <Cocodude> OK. If you need some example diagnostics I can provide.
2120 2014-02-10 15:24:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: one simple approach is to only hash the scriptPubKey:nValue of a single txin and txout, so addtional ones can be added as needed for the fees without changing the stable txid
2121 2014-02-10 15:25:07 tholenst has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
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2123 2014-02-10 15:25:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: this means the txid will actually look something like H(customers scriptPubKey:nValue) + H(mt.gox scriptPubKey:nValue)
2124 2014-02-10 15:25:09 <gmaxwell> In any case, this is a fucking morass of complexity.
2125 2014-02-10 15:25:13 <gmaxwell> make it go away.
2126 2014-02-10 15:25:13 <Cocodude> sipa: Is it normal for both the proper sending account, and "", to be deducated? I presume "" isn't really actually deducted, but it's bitcoind noticing a new txn and deducting from it?
2127 2014-02-10 15:25:34 <sipa> Cocodude: eww, that's a problem
2128 2014-02-10 15:25:44 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you're now talking about stuff that is unrelated to the gox press release, and which almost no one would willing implement.
2129 2014-02-10 15:25:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: meh, it works, if you don't do increasing fees the simple version works, and if you assume customers don't reuse addres (or at least you do a slightly different nValue every time) that works too
2130 2014-02-10 15:26:02 <Cocodude> sipa: OK. Well the last time it happened was only a few confirmations away
2131 2014-02-10 15:26:16 tholenst has joined
2132 2014-02-10 15:26:20 <petertodd> gmaxwell: bigger issue from the customers point of view, changes are address:nValue being unique is *much* more friendly to them anyway
2133 2014-02-10 15:26:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: s/changes/chances/
2134 2014-02-10 15:26:38 <gmaxwell> petertodd: if if if  every if exponentiates the probablity of having something generally usable there.
2135 2014-02-10 15:26:58 <petertodd> gmaxwell: indeed, so do unique address:nValue and call it a day
2136 2014-02-10 15:27:06 <gmaxwell> please stop wasting time with this, this is a complete distraction.
2137 2014-02-10 15:27:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Subo1977, didn't sipa kickban you?
2138 2014-02-10 15:27:23 paniaguaxx has joined
2139 2014-02-10 15:27:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: please, youre talking about a few different issues here
2140 2014-02-10 15:27:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Matt_von_Mises: Well, you could always build bdb yourself
2141 2014-02-10 15:27:52 <Subo1977> michagogo|cloud: why?
2142 2014-02-10 15:27:59 <gmaxwell> No, you're turning it into a science project.
2143 2014-02-10 15:28:08 <petertodd> gmaxwell: for internal wallet accounting, txid via scripts getting paid makes a lot of sense and is simple, for helpdesk, unique address:nValue works well
2144 2014-02-10 15:28:16 tucenaber has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2145 2014-02-10 15:28:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Subo1977: I don't remember, let me check -- I just seem to recall seeing sipa kick Subo
2146 2014-02-10 15:28:34 <petertodd> what's important is all that stuff is strongly malleability resistant
2147 2014-02-10 15:28:42 Breign has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2148 2014-02-10 15:28:43 <Matt_von_Mises> michagogo|cloud: Maybe I will have to. Didn't think that would be necessary. I might try this first: https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin/+build/5225112
2149 2014-02-10 15:28:51 tucenaber has joined
2150 2014-02-10 15:28:59 <Cocodude> sipa: TXN 6c94f4bf99396141ca3a98fbbfcdc3b6645d1d39360a71909bf10494651da49d and ad6887037b5fdf16bfd70549e6d24414e4c01c289bde05f174325e0b6a9c8b10 are the latest examples. I actually sent 6c... but ad... got confirmed.
2151 2014-02-10 15:29:05 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: you can just use bdb 5.1
2152 2014-02-10 15:29:10 <Matt_von_Mises> My BDB version is not 4.8.30, it's 4.8.24 so it might be too low.
2153 2014-02-10 15:29:11 <petertodd> anyway, I've got embedded consensus system work to do... you know, my day job, later
2154 2014-02-10 15:29:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Subo1977: I'm sorry, that was my mistake
2155 2014-02-10 15:29:22 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: True, but I want it to be compatible.
2156 2014-02-10 15:29:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|14:53:55 <sipa> FlawInMtGox: get lost
2157 2014-02-10 15:29:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|14:54:04 <FlawInMtGox> no
2158 2014-02-10 15:29:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|14:54:05 @sipa was opped (+o) by ChanServ
2159 2014-02-10 15:29:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|14:54:14 FlawInMtGox → Supa
2160 2014-02-10 15:29:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|14:54:20 Channel ban set for *!*lawinmtgo@24.69.216.* (+b) by @sipa
2161 2014-02-10 15:29:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|14:54:20 ← Supa was kicked by sipa (~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024): Supa
2162 2014-02-10 15:29:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Gah
2163 2014-02-10 15:29:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Sorry!
2164 2014-02-10 15:29:37 <Swoxxx> Hi guys
2165 2014-02-10 15:29:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That was supposed to be pastebinned
2166 2014-02-10 15:29:40 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: why?
2167 2014-02-10 15:29:56 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: you can always downconvert a 5.1 wallet.dat file to 4.8 again
2168 2014-02-10 15:30:02 <sipa> it just needs some manual work
2169 2014-02-10 15:30:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Matt_von_Mises: Oh, if you're on Ubuntu you can get the version from the PPA
2170 2014-02-10 15:30:26 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: This is not a personal build.
2171 2014-02-10 15:30:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sudo add-apt-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin
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2173 2014-02-10 15:30:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That PPA has a bdb 4.8 package, IIRC
2174 2014-02-10 15:30:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google bitcoin ppa
2175 2014-02-10 15:30:55 <gribble> Bitcoin - Stable Channel : “Bitcoin” team - Launchpad: <https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin>; How do I install Bitcoin? - Ask Ubuntu: <http://askubuntu.com/questions/41001/how-do-i-install-bitcoin>; 11.10 - Bitcoin PPA installation problem - Ask Ubuntu: <http://askubuntu.com/questions/123592/bitcoin-ppa-installation-problem>
2176 2014-02-10 15:31:00 <Swoxxx> I'm offering a bounty of .5 to 1BTC to the one who'll develop a small cli tool handling wallet.dats for me. PM me for more info
2177 2014-02-10 15:31:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yep:  db4.8	 4.8.30-saucy1
2178 2014-02-10 15:31:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Swoxxx: I assume you've already seen pywallet?
2179 2014-02-10 15:31:27 <Swoxxx> Dose not quite do it for me
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2182 2014-02-10 15:32:07 <Subo1977> michagogo|cloud:  no problem ::<-* sipa has kicked Supa from #bitcoin-dev (Supa)
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2187 2014-02-10 15:34:46 <Cocodude> sipa: Any idea how I go about investigating the depleting "" issue?
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2190 2014-02-10 15:36:02 <sipa> Cocodude: that would be a bug in bitcoind, and not an easy one to fix
2191 2014-02-10 15:36:29 <sipa> your actual balance should not be affected
2192 2014-02-10 15:36:36 <sipa> only account balances
2193 2014-02-10 15:37:12 <Cocodude> sipa: Thought so. I assume bitcoind is displaying less in "" because it's seeing a transaction coming back through the blockchain?
2194 2014-02-10 15:37:23 <Cocodude> (and it's already depleted it from the correct account)?
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2197 2014-02-10 15:37:39 <sipa> yeah, it's seeing two transactions and considers both valid
2198 2014-02-10 15:37:53 <sipa> and defaults the second one to subtracting from ""
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2200 2014-02-10 15:38:12 <Cocodude> OK good.
2201 2014-02-10 15:38:28 <Cocodude> Will bitcoind refuse to send out coins though if ""'s balance < sum(all other balances)?
2202 2014-02-10 15:38:41 <Cocodude> i.e. abs(all balances) < 0?
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2204 2014-02-10 15:38:58 <Cocodude> Because then it becomes more serious than a display issue
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2206 2014-02-10 15:39:18 <sipa> no
2207 2014-02-10 15:39:25 <sipa> only the actual wallet balance counts
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2209 2014-02-10 15:39:40 <jcorgan> sipa: btw, i've verified the searchrawtransactions functionality in my forward ported addrindex branch
2210 2014-02-10 15:39:50 <Cocodude> sipa: Great, many thanks for your assistance
2211 2014-02-10 15:40:41 <jcorgan> sipa: it is just lacking resolving the one merge conflict to get it from Dec. master to current
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2256 2014-02-10 16:01:46 <jcorgan> sipa: and it works great.  thanks for the original implementation.  i'll PR this once i get the last merge conflict taken care of.  i know the decision to merge it will be controversial I guess based on the comments in #2802, but at least it does exactly what I need to do locally.
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2275 2014-02-10 16:08:17 <Cocodude> sipa: Just a quick one. Presumably the "" balance won't ever actually return to normal in this instance (e.g. bitcoind doesn't "time out" a transaction it's seen that'll never be confirmed)?
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2280 2014-02-10 16:09:53 <wumpus> Cocodude: right, transactions don't ever time out
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2282 2014-02-10 16:10:36 <Cocodude> wumpus: OK. I know it's early days, but is there a proposed solution to this?
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2284 2014-02-10 16:10:40 <wumpus> the only way to get rid of them would be to manually edit them out of the wallet somehow
2285 2014-02-10 16:11:18 <Cocodude> Seems like a really tricky problem to solve
2286 2014-02-10 16:11:35 <andytoshi> Cocodude: somebody suggested a week or two ago that timing out transactions should be a priority.
2287 2014-02-10 16:11:57 <wumpus> but a way to remove unconfirmed transactions would be nice
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2289 2014-02-10 16:12:03 <andytoshi> it wouldn't be hard, if you have one of your own tx in your mempool and it's not confirmed in 72 hours or something, it'd just go away
2290 2014-02-10 16:12:18 <jgarzik> wumpus, actually, we have a sketch
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2292 2014-02-10 16:12:45 <jgarzik> wumpus, if a transaction in the mempool does not confirm after X blocks, forget it
2293 2014-02-10 16:12:47 <Cocodude> Do spill the beans
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2297 2014-02-10 16:13:02 <Cocodude> I think that makes sense
2298 2014-02-10 16:13:24 <wumpus> jgarzik: sounds sensible, if someone really cares about it they can re-broadcast it
2299 2014-02-10 16:13:32 <c0rw1n> after 120 blocks like for miners? sounds reasonable to me (but i'm an idiot)
2300 2014-02-10 16:13:34 <jgarzik> wumpus, precisely
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2302 2014-02-10 16:14:16 <jgarzik> wumpus, all wallets are responsible for re-broadcasting local TXs until confirmed.  This proposed rule makes it likely that a lot of the network will forget a transaction after that amount of time, freeing the user to cancel/resubmit/double spend with more fee
2303 2014-02-10 16:14:33 <jgarzik> "deterministic [mostly] transaction lifetime"
2304 2014-02-10 16:14:44 <jgarzik> makes transaction behavior in general a lot more predictable
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2306 2014-02-10 16:14:47 <wumpus> though that wouldn't solve unwanted unconfirmed transactions in the wallet, that's a different issue, and likely requires manual action (a "delete unconfirmed transaction" command)
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2308 2014-02-10 16:15:16 <jgarzik> indeed
2309 2014-02-10 16:15:23 <Cocodude> FWIW, BB-Martino's got exactly the same issue as me (and runds another UK exchange)
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2312 2014-02-10 16:15:44 <BB-Martino> Hi, just joining the party. Over -5 BTC negative in my "", based on what I've heard, that negative amount is there to stay, but also i shouldn't be worried even though my getbalance now reports 5 coins less?
2313 2014-02-10 16:15:54 <BB-Martino> is that right?
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2315 2014-02-10 16:16:24 <pigeons> i vote remove accounts feature
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2317 2014-02-10 16:16:41 <Cocodude> pigeons: You'd need to deprecate it first. We need a solution before that.
2318 2014-02-10 16:16:44 <wumpus> yes, remove the accounts feature, it's broken
2319 2014-02-10 16:16:52 <c0rw1n> to what problem?
2320 2014-02-10 16:17:04 <BB-Martino> I guess the question is, what happens to the 0confirm send transaction? It'll never make it to the blockchain, so will it be cleared somehow, as any double spend?
2321 2014-02-10 16:17:10 <Cocodude> c0rw1n: Malleability / misreporting of balances in ""
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2325 2014-02-10 16:17:20 <c0rw1n> ok
2326 2014-02-10 16:17:23 <wumpus> BB-Martino: no, it won't go away by itself
2327 2014-02-10 16:17:24 <andytoshi> BB-Martino: running listunspent will show you the actual coins you have available. 'listunspent 0' will show even unconfirmed ones
2328 2014-02-10 16:17:41 <andytoshi> but if you have spent them, they won't show up, even if they are unconfirmed
2329 2014-02-10 16:17:51 <andytoshi> even if the spend is unconfirmed*
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2331 2014-02-10 16:18:32 <BB-Martino> so you're saying that if i add up all the amounts in listunspent, I'll get something that is 5 btc more than reported by getbalance ?
2332 2014-02-10 16:18:50 <BB-Martino> becasue getbalance is supposed to just add up the amounts in the different accounts, right?
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2334 2014-02-10 16:19:21 <wumpus> getbalance without arguments doesn't do anything with accounts
2335 2014-02-10 16:19:26 <Cocodude> getunspent = looks at what inputs are unspent, and getbalance = a running total (that can get out of sync like this?) Is that right?
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2338 2014-02-10 16:19:55 <BB-Martino> wow, just tested. weird!
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2340 2014-02-10 16:20:38 <wumpus> or when you use '*' , for example getbalance '*' 1 will get you the balance of transactions with at least one confirmation
2341 2014-02-10 16:20:47 <andytoshi> BB-Martino: wumpus is right, sorry, i realized too late that listunspent also won't show spent coins
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2343 2014-02-10 16:21:09 <BB-Martino> so there's -5.17 in my "" account, 173.47 in my "bitbargain" account, one more account has 0.2, so the total should be 168.5. When I do getbalance, I get 176.5520
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2349 2014-02-10 16:23:46 <JyZyXEL> so with this new "getnormalizedtxid" command, we get the same hash for tx's that have been fiddled with by a 3rd party?
2350 2014-02-10 16:24:09 <sipa> yes
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2352 2014-02-10 16:25:14 <BB-Martino> So anyone have an educated guess whether I could withdraw 168.5 BTC or 176.5 BTC?
2353 2014-02-10 16:25:27 <Luke-Jr> sipa: even if they add inputs ANYONECANPAY-style?
2354 2014-02-10 16:25:59 <sipa> no
2355 2014-02-10 16:26:04 <Luke-Jr> :<
2356 2014-02-10 16:26:04 <sipa> well, yes
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2358 2014-02-10 16:26:16 <sipa> but not if all inputs are ANYONECANPAY
2359 2014-02-10 16:26:17 <Luke-Jr> ..
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2361 2014-02-10 16:26:27 <Luke-Jr> why not?
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2363 2014-02-10 16:26:38 <JyZyXEL> sipa: seems like such a useful feature, why hasn't anyone done this sooner?
2364 2014-02-10 16:26:44 <Luke-Jr> how about all ANYONECANPAY + no address reuse?
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2366 2014-02-10 16:27:48 <wumpus> BB-Martino: the getbalance result is correct
2367 2014-02-10 16:28:04 <BB-Martino> God I hope so.
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2369 2014-02-10 16:28:12 <BB-Martino> That would mean I have 8 BTC more than I thought.
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2371 2014-02-10 16:28:14 <sipa> it is
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2374 2014-02-10 16:28:58 <andytoshi> JyZyXEL: it doesn't solve all the problems related to malleability, just the "people using txid to check if transactions are confirmed" problem
2375 2014-02-10 16:28:58 <andytoshi> and nobody knew that was a problem because it's a dumb thing to do
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2382 2014-02-10 16:31:11 <awishformore> Hey sipa, if you had a minute, I have a question about bitcoin wallets in relation to deterministic wallets / BIP32.
2383 2014-02-10 16:31:21 <sipa> awishformore: sorry, no time now
2384 2014-02-10 16:31:23 <awishformore> I pmed you, not sure if you got it, just let me know if you would be willing.
2385 2014-02-10 16:31:29 <awishformore> Alright. Well thanks anyway.
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2484 2014-02-10 17:10:38 <wilsonNL> anyone here that can talk me through an compiling issue osx 10.9.1?
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2494 2014-02-10 17:14:37 <Urushiol> any sense of likelihood that the proposed change to add getnormalizedtxid will be accepted by the core debs?
2495 2014-02-10 17:14:46 <Urushiol> devs*
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2497 2014-02-10 17:15:02 <Urushiol> stupid autocorrect
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2500 2014-02-10 17:17:33 <BitCoroner> will this mean that bitcoin clients will need to keep two transaction indexes? one for the hash of the raw transaction, and another index of the normalized transactoin id?
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2503 2014-02-10 17:18:19 <Matt_von_Mises> After upgrading BDB 4.8.24 to 4.8.30 I still get the same problem ("illegal flag combination specified to DB_ENV->open"). I don't know what to do now.
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2505 2014-02-10 17:19:01 <Urushiol> BitCoroner: Is the normalizedtxid stored or computed?
2506 2014-02-10 17:19:12 <Urushiol> my impression was that it was an on-demand thing
2507 2014-02-10 17:19:23 <Urushiol> but I could be reading it wrong. I only gave it a quick skim.
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2509 2014-02-10 17:22:24 <BitCoroner> Urushiol: i'm not sure, either. haven't looked at the bitcoin code in a long time, and only skimmed this commit: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/1173eef630783a822d9a709cfbc22ba91880231e
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2511 2014-02-10 17:24:09 <Urushiol> that's the commit I was referring to. At work right now so don't really have time to fully digest it but it's a good question. Though even if it was stored, what impact would it really have? It would likely be relatively trivial in terms of storage requirements but would translate to a complete block chain re-parse for those normalized txid's
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2515 2014-02-10 17:25:22 <sipa> Urushiol: computed
2516 2014-02-10 17:26:03 <Urushiol> sipa: great. that's what I thought.
2517 2014-02-10 17:26:08 <BitCoroner> cool
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2520 2014-02-10 17:26:34 <Urushiol> so sipa: any sense of acceptance of the proposed change by the core devs?
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2523 2014-02-10 17:26:47 <Urushiol> obviously I know you can't speak for them
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2526 2014-02-10 17:27:53 <lechuga_> so whats the right way to work around the bug as a wallet service prodivder
2527 2014-02-10 17:28:09 <lechuga_> is there a bitcointalk post that clearly describes what to do
2528 2014-02-10 17:28:18 <lechuga_> provider*
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2536 2014-02-10 17:29:44 <andytoshi> lechuga_: don't use txid tracking to determine when transactions are confirmed
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2540 2014-02-10 17:29:54 <lechuga_> what should i use
2541 2014-02-10 17:30:04 <andytoshi> the actual inputs and outputs of the transaction
2542 2014-02-10 17:30:15 <lechuga_> arent they described by their hash[index] ?
2543 2014-02-10 17:30:32 <andytoshi> lechuga_: yes.
2544 2014-02-10 17:30:40 <andytoshi> the inputs are, anyway
2545 2014-02-10 17:30:40 <lechuga_> what if they are part of an unconfirmed chain then
2546 2014-02-10 17:30:47 <andytoshi> then you shouldn't spend them
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2548 2014-02-10 17:31:15 <lechuga_> so does this algorithm seem sound: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1xj4ga/instead_of_fingerpointing_how_about_we_clearly/
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2553 2014-02-10 17:31:58 <andytoshi> lechuga_: yeah, that's fine. though tracking the txid is not really necessary
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2555 2014-02-10 17:32:06 <andytoshi> i guess it is for auditing purposes
2556 2014-02-10 17:32:13 <lechuga_> yeah auditing what im concerned about
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2558 2014-02-10 17:32:18 <lechuga_> ok thx andy
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2575 2014-02-10 17:39:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Can you omit the input data from signrawtransaction as long as you have a fully synced node?
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2577 2014-02-10 17:40:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Can you omit the input data from signrawtransaction as long as you have a fully synced node?
2578 2014-02-10 17:40:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or do you need it any time the transactions aren't in your wallet?
2579 2014-02-10 17:40:28 <Apocalyptic> i believe you can michagogo|cloud
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2587 2014-02-10 17:43:38 <home_jg> michagogo|cloud, I always omit the inputs
2588 2014-02-10 17:43:47 <home_jg> michagogo|cloud, your suspicions are correct
2589 2014-02-10 17:44:03 <home_jg> having a fully sync'd node is sufficient
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2591 2014-02-10 17:44:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Great, thanks
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2595 2014-02-10 17:45:26 <muhoo> whoops, i don't pay attention for almost a year, and (according to mtgox) a serious bug in the security of tx'es pops up? jeebus.
2596 2014-02-10 17:45:41 <muhoo> hope the debugging is going well, anyway.
2597 2014-02-10 17:45:43 <sipa> Urushiol: it doesn't really need acceptance by devs as much as it just being accepted as a standard
2598 2014-02-10 17:46:11 <k9quaint> muhoo: it didn't pop up, its been known of for a while
2599 2014-02-10 17:46:15 <andytoshi> muhoo: there is no serious bug, just gox making noise
2600 2014-02-10 17:46:31 <muhoo> andytoshi: thanks, i was expectign to get the straight story here about that
2601 2014-02-10 17:46:33 <Urushiol> well I understand that but given gox's statement about "waiting for agreement from core devs", a more timely implementation would come from their acceptance.
2602 2014-02-10 17:46:43 <k9quaint> muhoo: the bug (from what I understand) was in how Mtgox relied on something that was not reliable
2603 2014-02-10 17:46:54 <sipa> Urushiol: i'm a core dev, i proposed a solution
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2605 2014-02-10 17:47:20 <k9quaint> sipa: was it the "feed the giraffe to the lions" proposal?
2606 2014-02-10 17:47:22 <andytoshi> muhoo: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1x93tf/some_irc_chatter_about_what_is_going_on_at_mtgox/cf99yac
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2608 2014-02-10 17:47:37 <goodbtc> is you are a core dev, why tf didn't magicaltux asked you what do you think about the damn press release before release?
2609 2014-02-10 17:47:50 <sipa> goodbtc: i certainly would have liked that
2610 2014-02-10 17:48:15 <muhoo> andytoshi: tx. i know who most of the heavyweights are here, so i'm lurking to see what they got to say.
2611 2014-02-10 17:48:59 <andytoshi> muhoo: nullc is apparently gmaxwell
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2613 2014-02-10 17:49:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Do transactions have any size limit or threshold besides the block size cap?
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2619 2014-02-10 17:50:44 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: no
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2622 2014-02-10 17:50:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, thanks -- that's what I though
2623 2014-02-10 17:50:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|t
2624 2014-02-10 17:51:08 <maaku> er, maybe in practice. is there a network protocol limit? i'm not sure
2625 2014-02-10 17:51:13 <maaku> but not in validation, no
2626 2014-02-10 17:51:32 <maaku> there isn't a MAX_TRANSACTION_SIZE check
2627 2014-02-10 17:51:44 <muhoo> andytoshi: ah, well, that makes sense, given how awesome that post was. thanks again.
2628 2014-02-10 17:51:53 <flound1129> why does bitcoind strace constantly spew futex errors?
2629 2014-02-10 17:51:56 <flound1129> semes like it's wasting a lot of cpu
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2631 2014-02-10 17:52:35 <lechuga_> sipa: did you see my question andytoshi answered?
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2634 2014-02-10 17:53:00 <andytoshi> muhoo: np :) thanks for asking a quick question and accepting a quick answer, there's been a lot of chunder on the channel today
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2636 2014-02-10 17:53:43 <andytoshi> sipa: (the question was, 'can i just hash the inputs and outputs and use that as a txid for tracking purposes')
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2639 2014-02-10 17:54:45 <Plarkplark_> Still media FUD: http://www.nu.nl/internet/3697861/bitcoin-weer-onderuit-problemen-bij-wisseldienst.html
2640 2014-02-10 17:54:55 <Plarkplark_> They are talking about a "leak in bitcoin software; exploited.."
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2642 2014-02-10 17:55:11 <lechuga_> thats not completely untrue
2643 2014-02-10 17:55:24 <lechuga_> in some bitcoin software a problem was exploited
2644 2014-02-10 17:55:33 <HumT> just got banned from bitcoin?  what did i do?
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2649 2014-02-10 17:57:02 <Urushiol> sipa: oh, my mistake. good to know.
2650 2014-02-10 17:57:12 <Urushiol> sipa: and thanks for the work.
2651 2014-02-10 17:57:32 <muhoo> andytoshi: meh, people tend to freak out when shit they don't understand happens to their money. then the media gets involved and fans the freakouts for clicks/eyeballs. it's understandable, though annoying.
2652 2014-02-10 17:58:00 <flound1129> FUTEX_WAIT_BITSET_PRIVATE|FUTEX_CLOCK_REALTIME, 72930357, {1392054760, 970465000}, ffffffff) = -1 ETIMEDOUT (Connection timed out)
2653 2014-02-10 17:58:03 <flound1129> ayone?
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2656 2014-02-10 17:59:06 <flound1129> it looks like the leap second bug
2657 2014-02-10 17:59:08 <flound1129> but it's not
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2659 2014-02-10 17:59:55 <flound1129> sipa?
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2667 2014-02-10 18:03:23 <HumT> Make a joke about altcoins in #bitcoin and get banned.  Goodness.
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2670 2014-02-10 18:04:59 <wumpus> complaining about #bitcoin in #bitcoin-dev will like also get you banned
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2727 2014-02-10 18:26:32 <wilsonNL> anyone know how to fix this error while compiling on osx 10.9.1: After typing:make -f makefile.osx USE_UPNP=- Terminal spits out this error: "ld: symbol(s) not found for architecture x86_64"
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2732 2014-02-10 18:29:34 <wumpus> bitcoin-dev is going very offtopic
2733 2014-02-10 18:29:45 <wumpus> eh, I mean the mailing list
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2748 2014-02-10 18:36:52 <gmaxwell> wumpus: you VC shill
2749 2014-02-10 18:36:54 <gmaxwell> :P
2750 2014-02-10 18:37:39 <wumpus> hehe, well you're free to use a mtgox fork of bitcoin of there was one :P
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2753 2014-02-10 18:38:12 <gmaxwell> well technically,
2754 2014-02-10 18:38:17 * gmaxwell wonders where that repo is
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2762 2014-02-10 18:42:53 <wumpus> you must be going crazy from all the mentions
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2803 2014-02-10 18:59:05 <goodbtc> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1xj56q/hello_reddit_im_bill_gates_cochair_of_the_bill/
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2806 2014-02-10 18:59:31 <goodbtc> ask him to join core team
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2840 2014-02-10 19:07:16 <Bisbee> cd 3
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2849 2014-02-10 19:08:44 <muhoo> i remember a year ago someone was working on a project to replace openssl with some other crypto in bitcoind
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2858 2014-02-10 19:12:10 <wumpus> muhoo: https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1
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2866 2014-02-10 19:16:56 <muhoo> wumpus: thx
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2884 2014-02-10 19:28:20 <sturles> Question: I have an autobuy system where I give each seller an unique address to transfer to when selling, and use a -walletnotify script to trigger a price check when someone transfer coins to their address.  When the transaction confirms, it will write details to a file I send to the bank to do payments.
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2886 2014-02-10 19:28:32 <sturles> How will this work if a tx is changed?
2887 2014-02-10 19:29:07 <sturles> Will bitcoind be able to track the changed confirmed transaction and connect it to the unconfirmed one I received?
2888 2014-02-10 19:29:16 <sturles> Otherwise the seller will get the wrong price.
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2892 2014-02-10 19:29:39 <sturles> Just noticed Gavin's claim that "Transactions are always tracked properly by the Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind software".
2893 2014-02-10 19:30:01 <sturles> If that is correct, I have nothing to worry about.
2894 2014-02-10 19:30:04 <Luke-Jr> sturles: transactoin times are always unreliable, and you should figure out a better way to handle this
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2896 2014-02-10 19:30:16 <Luke-Jr> sturles: the payment protocol for example I think fulfils your needs here
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2899 2014-02-10 19:30:37 <sturles> My conditions stated that the seller get the price at the time my client first notice the transaction.
2900 2014-02-10 19:30:54 <Luke-Jr> A new txid is treated as a separate transaction
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2903 2014-02-10 19:31:24 <gavinandresen> … which doesn't matter for sturles' use case.
2904 2014-02-10 19:31:24 <sturles> This is what I feared.  So it is not strictly true that bitcoind will track those transactions properly.
2905 2014-02-10 19:31:41 <Luke-Jr> depends on what one means by "properly" I suppose
2906 2014-02-10 19:31:54 <Luke-Jr> it was never intended that the time would be reliable
2907 2014-02-10 19:32:05 Swoxxx is now known as Swoxxx`off
2908 2014-02-10 19:32:07 <gavinandresen> I'm confused by what time has to do with anything
2909 2014-02-10 19:32:09 <sturles> T don't use the timestamp in the transaction.
2910 2014-02-10 19:32:10 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: well, it breaks his use-case
2911 2014-02-10 19:32:19 <Luke-Jr> sturles: there isn't a timestamp in the transaction
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2915 2014-02-10 19:32:46 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: he's looking at his cleint's timereceived, and transferring an amount of USD based on some market price at that time
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2917 2014-02-10 19:33:02 <sturles> No, I am not looking at any time.
2918 2014-02-10 19:33:06 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: if the txid changes, that received time will be later than the original one
2919 2014-02-10 19:33:08 <Luke-Jr> sturles: ⁈
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2922 2014-02-10 19:33:40 <sturles> I use walletnotify to notify a script, and the script checks the current price.  It notest the time as well, but my current time.
2923 2014-02-10 19:33:51 <gavinandresen> sturles: if you are doing this at zero confirmations, then that is a very bad idea.
2924 2014-02-10 19:33:56 <Luke-Jr> sturles: ok, same thing in this case
2925 2014-02-10 19:34:13 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: only the price is determined by receive time, in his example
2926 2014-02-10 19:34:16 <gavinandresen> sturles: if you are only transferring money when the transaction has more than one confirmation, then no worries
2927 2014-02-10 19:34:21 <Luke-Jr> I presume he waits for it to confirm before actually sending
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2929 2014-02-10 19:34:35 <sturles> I check the price at zero confirmations, and write to a file which is going to the bank when the transaction is confirmed.
2930 2014-02-10 19:34:50 <sturles> I do not pay out at zero confirmations.
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2932 2014-02-10 19:35:09 <Luke-Jr> sturles: for a quick fix, I suggest applying sipa's patch and matching up the "new txid" thing
2933 2014-02-10 19:35:12 <sturles> Users want to get as close to the current price as possible.
2934 2014-02-10 19:35:33 <Luke-Jr> sturles: be aware your system can be gamed though..
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2936 2014-02-10 19:35:56 <Luke-Jr> sturles: I send a transaction that won't confirm on its own; if price drops, I double-spend. if it goes up, I confirm it
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2938 2014-02-10 19:36:16 <Luke-Jr> or vice-versa might actually be the bad case..
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2941 2014-02-10 19:36:32 <sturles> Wouldn't this be possible with the payment protocol as well?
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2943 2014-02-10 19:36:42 <gavinandresen> If the "you" is a mining pool, then you can do this even if transactions were immutable.
2944 2014-02-10 19:36:43 <Luke-Jr> sure, that's the risk of doing 0 confirm for price
2945 2014-02-10 19:36:56 <gavinandresen> (even if transaction IDs were immutable, I mean)
2946 2014-02-10 19:37:03 <Apocalyptic> indeed
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2949 2014-02-10 19:37:21 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: for example, CPFP could make a transaction mined only when a user decides
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2952 2014-02-10 19:37:36 <sturles> I will log the unconfirmed tx and can ban users who try double spending tricks.  No problem really.
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2954 2014-02-10 19:38:26 <Luke-Jr> sounds like a plan to me
2955 2014-02-10 19:38:54 <sturles> So I will need sipa's patch to track changed transactions properly in my case?
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2957 2014-02-10 19:39:14 <Luke-Jr> that will protect your customers from third parties, yes
2958 2014-02-10 19:39:34 <Luke-Jr> it will still break if your users do CoinJoins, but that's less urgent I guess
2959 2014-02-10 19:39:39 <gavinandresen> sturles: see also:  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3354
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2961 2014-02-10 19:40:12 <sturles> I still do manual checks before anything is going to the bank, and the system will warn strongly if the balances don't match up (e.g. confirmed transaction reversal).
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2966 2014-02-10 19:42:36 <Luke-Jr> it would probably be best if B-Qt in the future tracked when TxnA is replaced by TxnB and treated them as the same in a UI sense
2967 2014-02-10 19:42:54 <Luke-Jr> but that's a lot of coding/review/etc
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2969 2014-02-10 19:44:29 <gmaxwell> replaced sounds like 'loses data' but  'groups and greys out the old one' in the UI, marks as replaced in the rpc would probably be good.
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2972 2014-02-10 19:48:23 <sturles> OK, thanks for your help.  I'll look into Sipa's patch.
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2980 2014-02-10 19:56:29 <q2vJT3N2AOwIWy> @MagicalTux: any ETA on when BTC withdrawals will be fixed?
2981 2014-02-10 19:57:32 <ahmed_bodi> is anyone here good with python/twistd.adbapi? (i want to convert stratum to use it rather than the current implementation of mysqldb_
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2983 2014-02-10 19:59:20 <andytoshi> ;;seen MagicalTux
2984 2014-02-10 19:59:20 <gribble> MagicalTux was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 16 weeks, 2 days, 4 hours, 39 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: <MagicalTux> (doing one query for each tx will require a lot of queries for large blocks, and has very poor performances)
2985 2014-02-10 20:00:06 <gmaxwell> ;;seen MT-bot
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2987 2014-02-10 20:00:06 <gribble> I have not seen MT-bot.
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2995 2014-02-10 20:05:54 <q2vJT3N2AOwIWy> sorry wrong channel. MagicalTux is sleeping according to #mtgox staff
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3001 2014-02-10 20:07:55 <andytoshi> ...are they his palace guards or something?
3002 2014-02-10 20:08:43 <goodbtc> future ronins
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3025 2014-02-10 20:18:40 <todamoon> anyone knows why transaction malleability cannot be fixed quickly? is it because there is a risk of blockchain fork?
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3030 2014-02-10 20:19:25 <Delerium> q2vJT3N2AOwIWy: 5:18 AM Time in Tokyo, Japan - ye he sleeping
3031 2014-02-10 20:19:37 rdponticelli has left ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.")
3032 2014-02-10 20:19:38 <goodbtc> except mtgox, noone else is affected by it, so - why bother?
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3034 2014-02-10 20:20:26 <andytoshi> todamoon: because it isn't proved that ECDSA sigs can be done nonmalleably
3035 2014-02-10 20:20:34 <andytoshi> todamoon: you are welcome to get a math degree and work on it
3036 2014-02-10 20:21:25 Tray_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3037 2014-02-10 20:21:26 <todamoon> andytoshi: ah ok. so it is still unknown whether malleability will ever be fixed?
3038 2014-02-10 20:21:26 daybyter has joined
3039 2014-02-10 20:21:27 <goodbtc> if you think about it, math should not be harder to learn than japanese, so while you are are it, do them both
3040 2014-02-10 20:21:40 <Luke-Jr> (or work on it without a worthless degree)
3041 2014-02-10 20:22:01 <Luke-Jr> todamoon: it's also not a problem
3042 2014-02-10 20:22:33 ericmuyser has joined
3043 2014-02-10 20:22:53 <Luke-Jr> if you are vulnerable to malleable transactions, you are vulnerable to other things too
3044 2014-02-10 20:23:05 <todamoon> of course I know
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3049 2014-02-10 20:25:40 <todamoon> I thought I read somewhere that Gavin was working on it but that it might take a few years
3050 2014-02-10 20:25:43 <todamoon> was wondering why
3051 2014-02-10 20:26:09 <gmaxwell> Gavin is not working on it, sipa is.
3052 2014-02-10 20:26:29 <gmaxwell> And it's a risky low priority rule change that requires updating all nodes/wallets/signers.
3053 2014-02-10 20:26:44 <gmaxwell> for example it may turn out that it's never possible to make trezor comaptible with it.
3054 2014-02-10 20:26:51 <todamoon> yes I understand that, was just wondering why it requires updating all...
3055 2014-02-10 20:27:01 <todamoon> if it's not a risk of fork, I have no idea
3056 2014-02-10 20:27:07 <todamoon> oh ok
3057 2014-02-10 20:27:23 <todamoon> that would be bad
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3061 2014-02-10 20:27:57 <gmaxwell> because it involves adding new, very strict constraints on how transactions and signatures are encoded. Most of them are already obeyed by most clients, but some are not.
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3067 2014-02-10 20:29:32 <todamoon> wouldn't that create a fork too then? if not all miners implement those rules
3068 2014-02-10 20:30:21 <edcba> hi ppl !
3069 2014-02-10 20:30:29 <edcba> what happened again ?
3070 2014-02-10 20:31:22 <goodbtc> i didn't do it!
3071 2014-02-10 20:31:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: Trezor is just an example, or there's a real issue with it?
3072 2014-02-10 20:31:28 Ninsei_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3073 2014-02-10 20:32:41 <edcba> mtgox dared having a different conclusion than gmaxwell ?
3074 2014-02-10 20:32:44 <gmaxwell> I don't know of any real issue.
3075 2014-02-10 20:32:45 Ninsei_ has joined
3076 2014-02-10 20:33:01 * edcba should read mtgox PR thingy...
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3082 2014-02-10 20:38:51 Muis has joined
3083 2014-02-10 20:39:26 * edcba can't find it...
3084 2014-02-10 20:39:36 * edcba wonders whether should he panic sell
3085 2014-02-10 20:39:58 Jasmin68k has joined
3086 2014-02-10 20:40:07 <edcba> maybe not now it's meal time !
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3102 2014-02-10 20:48:51 <jgarzik> Unverified twitter report:
3103 2014-02-10 20:48:52 <jgarzik> Over 900 doublespends (from txn malleability DoS?) in last 10min, 10x regular amount.https://blockchain.info/double-spends
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3107 2014-02-10 20:51:32 <Logicwax> i have a question about stealth addresses.....this drawing makes sense to me: http://imgur.com/rHhNKL6
3108 2014-02-10 20:52:04 <Logicwax> however, why is it recommended to have a separate nonce (pub/priv key pair) ?
3109 2014-02-10 20:52:17 <Logicwax> why not just use the pubkey of the payor from the txn?
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3112 2014-02-10 20:53:04 <Logicwax> so bob would just scan every transaction of the blockchain, take the pubkey of the payer from the transaction and multiply it by his payee private key, then add that value calculated to his pubkey (and privkey), and see if that pubkey equals the output address of the transaction. If so, it's for him (and use his privkey from that calculation to spend it). If not, then rinse and repeat for
3113 2014-02-10 20:53:04 <Logicwax> every other transaction.
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3115 2014-02-10 20:53:24 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: sadly predictable… somebody is probably running a relay that is just mutating transactions before relaying.  To be annoying, because they can.
3116 2014-02-10 20:53:33 <Logicwax> sounds straightforward to me, so what am I missing?   why all this talk about how to communicate the nonce?
3117 2014-02-10 20:53:36 <jgarzik> yep
3118 2014-02-10 20:53:41 * jgarzik heads home, bbiab
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3123 2014-02-10 20:54:32 <abrkn> "To be annoying, because they can." <- summary of the internet
3124 2014-02-10 20:54:51 <owowo> yep.
3125 2014-02-10 20:55:31 <petertodd> abrkn: meh, fairly harmless way of forcing people to write good software
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3129 2014-02-10 20:56:40 <abrkn> petertodd: has any other sites been reporting also having issues with transactions being included with different hashes than they expected?
3130 2014-02-10 20:57:08 <mailaa> whoever is doing it is probably in here right now
3131 2014-02-10 20:57:11 <davout> i saw deposits get mutated, resulting in multiple deposits
3132 2014-02-10 20:57:15 <petertodd> abrkn: I'm talking to the admin at one right now
3133 2014-02-10 20:57:18 <abrkn> davout: which site?
3134 2014-02-10 20:57:21 <petertodd> abrkn: just something you have to handle
3135 2014-02-10 20:57:23 <davout> bitcoin-central.net
3136 2014-02-10 20:57:51 <davout> no harm ofc since only of the duplicates confirmed
3137 2014-02-10 20:57:55 RoboTeddy has joined
3138 2014-02-10 20:57:59 <davout> one*
3139 2014-02-10 20:58:02 <abrkn> davout: i'm just using bitcoind, not caring about anything less than six blocks deep, so i guess no need to worry
3140 2014-02-10 20:58:10 <gmaxwell> I wonder why no one complained a year ago when there was a huge burst of mutant doublespends on the network.
3141 2014-02-10 20:58:25 ForeignKeys has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3142 2014-02-10 20:58:48 <davout> gmaxwell: maybe because ppl could still get their money out of the exchange that funds the foundation
3143 2014-02-10 20:58:56 <petertodd> gmaxwell: maybe they were to/from the attackers own wallet?
3144 2014-02-10 20:59:02 <abrkn> gmaxwell: same reason i buy my mom flowers at the gas station five minutes before lunch on mother's day
3145 2014-02-10 20:59:11 <xabbix> lol
3146 2014-02-10 20:59:49 hrumph has joined
3147 2014-02-10 21:00:29 <gmaxwell> petertodd: there was one period where someone seemed to be mutating basically all sdice transactions. I think I saw a single user report of a stuck coins from an invalidated change transaction.
3148 2014-02-10 21:00:37 <abrkn> does this affect services like bitpay in any way, where invoices are marked "paid" but not "completed" before X confirmations?
3149 2014-02-10 21:01:02 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ah, I remember that; iirc bc.i and many other wallets actualy handle it decently
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3152 2014-02-10 21:01:45 <gmaxwell> abrkn: I'm not aware of any reason why it would.
3153 2014-02-10 21:01:57 skarloey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3154 2014-02-10 21:02:06 <gmaxwell> I don't know why people keep thinking crazy stuff: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=458608.msg5062994#msg5062994
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3157 2014-02-10 21:02:25 <abrkn> gmaxwell: because the inputs/outputs remain the same as long as they do not try to match up the zero conf tx hashes with the ones that are eventually included?
3158 2014-02-10 21:02:43 ForeignKeys has joined
3159 2014-02-10 21:02:50 <gmaxwell> abrkn: maybe, good point that it should be a test case they run.
3160 2014-02-10 21:02:57 Ninsei_ has joined
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3162 2014-02-10 21:03:40 <abrkn> gmaxwell: some people refering to it as "transaction id" as opposed to "transaction hash" does not help a lot
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3165 2014-02-10 21:04:23 <xabbix> is anyone familiar with bitcore? new project by bitpay as far as I can see. I can't figure out if it provides the same functionality as bitcoind
3166 2014-02-10 21:04:38 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3167 2014-02-10 21:05:22 <abrkn> xabbix: i've read parts of it and have the same problem as i do with all other js implementations. it needs to be more modular.
3168 2014-02-10 21:05:22 AusBitBank has joined
3169 2014-02-10 21:05:31 <petertodd> xabbix: link?
3170 2014-02-10 21:05:37 <abrkn> https://github.com/bitpay/bitcore
3171 2014-02-10 21:05:42 <xabbix> yep that's the one
3172 2014-02-10 21:05:48 Subo1977 has joined
3173 2014-02-10 21:06:14 <abrkn> also, there's not enough tests anywhere. in most js implementations, even the ecdsa bits have like 50 lines of tests
3174 2014-02-10 21:06:21 <petertodd> xabbix: gah, yet another re-implmenetation of scripts...
3175 2014-02-10 21:06:32 <xabbix> abrkn: it's rather new, give them some time :)
3176 2014-02-10 21:06:48 <xabbix> I'm with you though, i'm all for a tests-first policy
3177 2014-02-10 21:07:05 <kanzure> most of the js devs are good about modules (see: npmjs.org explosion)
3178 2014-02-10 21:07:08 <abrkn> doesnt have to be tdd for me as long as there's reasonable coverage
3179 2014-02-10 21:07:17 <kanzure> oh wait, yeah this repo is immediately obviously poorly structured
3180 2014-02-10 21:07:58 <kanzure> haha this is not a good commit message "remove "use strict" which is causing problems."
3181 2014-02-10 21:08:10 <kanzure> who the heck approved that one.. hah.
3182 2014-02-10 21:08:11 Lexa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3186 2014-02-10 21:09:03 <richardus> why did the devs only prohibit the broadcasting of odd signatures in .8 and not take the chance to standardize on a canonical der encoding?  something subtle here i'm missign?
3187 2014-02-10 21:09:08 <petertodd> xabbix: pretty sure their checkmultisig implementation is buggy; doesn't pop enough stuff off the stack on a failed checkmultisig...
3188 2014-02-10 21:09:16 Tray_ has joined
3189 2014-02-10 21:09:17 <abrkn> think that's impressive? let me present: https://github.com/vbuterin/bitcoinjs-lib/blob/master/src/jsbn/jsbn.js#L83
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3192 2014-02-10 21:09:54 <kanzure> abrkn: they are doomed
3193 2014-02-10 21:10:15 <kanzure> abrkn: wow this is a custom BigInteger implementation?
3194 2014-02-10 21:10:26 <kanzure> abrkn: what about using https://npmjs.org/package/biginteger
3195 2014-02-10 21:10:29 <abrkn> kanzure: it's a file that has been copy-pasted for generations. zero unit tests
3196 2014-02-10 21:10:50 <xabbix> petertodd, I hope they'll improve it soon. They're working quite a bit on this project.
3197 2014-02-10 21:10:54 <kanzure> https://github.com/ashnur/biginteger/blob/master/test/test-biginteger.js
3198 2014-02-10 21:11:10 <kanzure> i would have expected bitpay to hire more careful developers than this
3199 2014-02-10 21:11:17 <kanzure> oh well.
3200 2014-02-10 21:11:18 <petertodd> xabbix: you improve it by deleting EvalScript() entirely... getting it right is just too complex for mortals
3201 2014-02-10 21:11:18 <abrkn> nice
3202 2014-02-10 21:11:43 drayah_ has joined
3203 2014-02-10 21:11:55 <xabbix> lol
3204 2014-02-10 21:12:23 <abrkn> i wanted to start a brand spanking new bitcoin lib for js, using proper dependencies that have tests, but then remembered that i have another job
3205 2014-02-10 21:12:29 <petertodd> xabbix: I probably know how script.cpp works better than almost anyone in the world and my professional opinion is 'fuck that shit' when it comes to trying to reimplement it
3206 2014-02-10 21:12:54 <petertodd> xabbix: I'll bet you there's quite seriously a dozen people who know it as well as I do
3207 2014-02-10 21:12:57 <kanzure> petertodd: what about providing bindings/wrappers to script.cpp for third-party libraries to consume
3208 2014-02-10 21:13:18 MixX has joined
3209 2014-02-10 21:13:30 <abrkn> petertodd: hah. how can it be so bad? could make a tool to generate tests to compare one's output with script.cpp
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3211 2014-02-10 21:13:49 <petertodd> kanzure: well, my standard advice is if you need to know if a transaction is valid, use a trusted bitcoind to do it for you; wallets basically never need to know that and can just use fixed pattern matching (as vitaliks implementation does, wise man)
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3216 2014-02-10 21:14:29 <petertodd> abrkn: consensus is hard; you have to match not only successes, but failures, and no-one knows what all the edge-cases are
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3220 2014-02-10 21:15:16 <petertodd> abrkn: I seriously think it's a harder problem than writing safety critical software like autopilots (I've done a bit of that actually)
3221 2014-02-10 21:15:20 testing has joined
3222 2014-02-10 21:15:24 <abrkn> hah
3223 2014-02-10 21:15:29 <kanzure> petertodd: i don't understand, i don't think you need a full bitcoind just for providing bindings to script.cpp
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3225 2014-02-10 21:15:45 <abrkn> kanzure: still, would be nice to have more than one fully functional one
3226 2014-02-10 21:16:08 <petertodd> abrkn: I once spent a month writing firmware for a battery controller to detect whether or not the battery temperature was too high; maybe 100 lines of code, and not even a single loop
3227 2014-02-10 21:16:09 <abrkn> petertodd: how are guys like ethereum going to do this in their "turing complete" system? the spec. looks pretty crazy
3228 2014-02-10 21:16:17 drayah has joined
3229 2014-02-10 21:16:27 <abrkn> petertodd: company policy? no loops?
3230 2014-02-10 21:16:28 <petertodd> abrkn: see, writing the first one is easy, writing the second implementation and matching the first one isn't
3231 2014-02-10 21:16:32 <kanzure> abrkn: their source code is also not encouraging.. one of their python repos went poof. heh.
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3235 2014-02-10 21:16:52 <abrkn> contracts never showed in ripple either
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3237 2014-02-10 21:17:01 <petertodd> abrkn: see, I used the watchdog timer as my loop
3238 2014-02-10 21:17:19 <petertodd> abrkn: handy because that ensures that safety-critical feature is always working!
3239 2014-02-10 21:17:34 drayah_ has joined
3240 2014-02-10 21:17:36 <abrkn> petertodd: remind me never to work with hardware
3241 2014-02-10 21:17:45 rdymac has joined
3242 2014-02-10 21:18:36 <petertodd> abrkn: point isn't that what I was doing was impressive, but rather that even for a seemingly trivial task - blink some leds - you have to be stupidly careful, and reimplementing bitcoin is even harder than that by a long shot
3243 2014-02-10 21:19:07 <abrkn> petertodd: how does bitcoinJ do it?
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3245 2014-02-10 21:19:48 <petertodd> abrkn: they have a EvalScript() in the code, but actual wallets just use pattern matching and in effect let satoshi-codebase nodes do the consensus critical work for them
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3247 2014-02-10 21:20:16 <xabbix> petertodd, How long have you been working a bitcoin core dev?
3248 2014-02-10 21:20:18 <petertodd> abrkn: point is, miners run the satoshi codebase, thus you can let them do EvalScript() for you and know the tx is real because it is in a block
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3250 2014-02-10 21:20:52 prepost has joined
3251 2014-02-10 21:20:56 <petertodd> xabbix: define 'core dev' :P  my last day at my previous job was last week of january
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3255 2014-02-10 21:21:27 <petertodd> xabbix: first paid bitcon work was last march (?)
3256 2014-02-10 21:21:50 drayah has joined
3257 2014-02-10 21:22:02 <xabbix> petertodd, paid bitcoin work? You guys get paid to work on the bitcoin project? or was this a different project?
3258 2014-02-10 21:22:19 slothbag has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
3259 2014-02-10 21:22:27 <petertodd> xabbix: well right now I'm Mastercoin's chief scientist, and I'm doing work for litecoin, and also colored coins
3260 2014-02-10 21:22:37 <xabbix> ah cool
3261 2014-02-10 21:22:44 <abrkn> petertodd: move to norway. pretty girls, nice cool weather, work for justcoin. low salary, no benefits, stock options
3262 2014-02-10 21:22:54 <xabbix> Well, more specific question, around what time was you first commit to the bitcoin repo?
3263 2014-02-10 21:22:57 <xabbix> just wondering..
3264 2014-02-10 21:23:05 <petertodd> xabbix: might do some consulting for ethereum at some point too, and dogecoin asked me to do some work too (though I had to turn them down; not stuff I was familiar with)
3265 2014-02-10 21:23:08 <abrkn> petertodd: how is mastercoin coming along?
3266 2014-02-10 21:23:27 <petertodd> xabbix: git log | grep petertodd | wc -l is illuminating you know...
3267 2014-02-10 21:23:41 songz has joined
3268 2014-02-10 21:23:44 <melvster> satoshi actually wrote this: "The existing Visa credit card network processes about 15 million Internet purchases per day worldwide.  Bitcoin can already scale much larger than that with existing hardware for a fraction of the cost.  It never really hits a scale ceiling.   If you're interested, I can go over the ways it would cope with extreme size." ... but I never actually found that explanation ...
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3271 2014-02-10 21:24:05 <petertodd> abrkn: dunno exactly, my job for them is more forward looking/consulting. I don't work on the code directly
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3274 2014-02-10 21:24:58 <petertodd> melvster: the explanation basically is that if you throw enough hardware at the problem, even bitcoin can scale; it's not a scenario where bitcoin stays decentralized
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3276 2014-02-10 21:25:28 <melvster> petertodd: oh thanks ... i thought it may be something to do with reclaiming space through merkle trees?
3277 2014-02-10 21:25:32 <lechuga_> turing complete systems and colored coins and magical unicorn oracles but we cant even get canonical signatures working correctly
3278 2014-02-10 21:25:41 drayah__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3279 2014-02-10 21:25:46 <azariah4> lechuga_: LOL
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3281 2014-02-10 21:26:04 caktux has joined
3282 2014-02-10 21:26:07 <petertodd> melvster: right, which lets the system "scale" by moving all the load to a small number of central servers; that's not decentralized
3283 2014-02-10 21:26:07 <azariah4> that's what happen when you let developers loose
3284 2014-02-10 21:26:27 <petertodd> azariah4: we have the problem that the brightest people here want to do the most interesting work...
3285 2014-02-10 21:26:41 Jankxed has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3286 2014-02-10 21:26:46 <petertodd> azariah4: hell, they avoid writing any code at all (e.g. me)
3287 2014-02-10 21:26:53 <dugo> melvster: bigger blocks to boot to get to SWIFT volumes i suppose?
3288 2014-02-10 21:27:07 <azariah4> petertodd: yeah, I recognize that from work :P
3289 2014-02-10 21:27:36 NeatBasis has joined
3290 2014-02-10 21:27:46 <lechuga_> petertodd: speakng of which, is there any defactor std design floating around for colored coins?
3291 2014-02-10 21:27:50 <petertodd> azariah4: yup, the other part of the problem is that often the people who are "in the trenches" writing code aren't spending enough time thinking about the problems, and genuinely aren't making good designs because of that
3292 2014-02-10 21:27:53 <lechuga_> defacto*
3293 2014-02-10 21:27:54 <azariah4> petertodd: well, from a zen programmer point of view, not writing any code can be the ultimate solution
3294 2014-02-10 21:28:02 <gavinandresen> sigh.  Is TCP/IP decentralized?  I say yes, because anybody CAN run a backbone router, given enough bandwidth/hardware.
3295 2014-02-10 21:28:08 <petertodd> lechuga_: killerstorm and I are getting close actually
3296 2014-02-10 21:28:18 <lechuga_> nice
3297 2014-02-10 21:28:27 drayah_ has joined
3298 2014-02-10 21:28:28 <petertodd> lechuga_: (my contract with him is to review and refine the colored coin efforts)
3299 2014-02-10 21:28:40 <lechuga_> is he the guy who published the like
3300 2014-02-10 21:28:42 <lechuga_> half complete pdf
3301 2014-02-10 21:28:54 <petertodd> lechuga_: not sure what you're talking about
3302 2014-02-10 21:28:56 <lechuga_> sec
3303 2014-02-10 21:29:04 owowo has joined
3304 2014-02-10 21:29:07 <lechuga_> https://bitcoil.co.il/BitcoinX.pdf
3305 2014-02-10 21:29:19 drayah__ has joined
3306 2014-02-10 21:29:46 <petertodd> lechuga_: that's a different guy, but killerstorms work is influenced by meni's work
3307 2014-02-10 21:29:52 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: on the other hand, if you try to use an IP that IANA has not delegated to you, you'll get cut off..
3308 2014-02-10 21:29:52 <azariah4> this is a good point, decentralized doesn't necessarily mean that every user contributes to validations/consensus
3309 2014-02-10 21:30:06 <jgarzik> xabbix, abrkn, petertodd: no, bitcore is not yet another reimplementation.  It's a clone and cleanup of bitcoinjs-server.  Whatever you see... is an improvement over what was there before.  Any bugs in i.e. script are likely inherited.
3310 2014-02-10 21:30:11 murr4y has joined
3311 2014-02-10 21:30:12 <melvster> gavinandresen: tim berners-lee says that specs themselves are a form of centralization, so if you go by that definition tcp/ip is *not* decentralized ... personally I try not to think of centralized/decentralized as binary, but rather, as a continuum where thinks are relatively more less or more decentralized ...
3312 2014-02-10 21:30:24 <lechuga_> +1 luke-jr
3313 2014-02-10 21:30:34 <melvster> s/thinks/things
3314 2014-02-10 21:30:37 <gavinandresen> I knew I was making a mistake jumping into a "what is the definition of decentralized" conversation....
3315 2014-02-10 21:30:38 ForeignKeys has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
3316 2014-02-10 21:30:43 <lechuga_> haha
3317 2014-02-10 21:30:44 <jgarzik> melvster, That's a bit non-sensical.  If you are 100% decentralized in that logic, you cannot talk to one another.
3318 2014-02-10 21:30:48 <petertodd> azariah4: well the interesting work being done in that space IMO is figuring out how to have better tradeoffs between global consensus/proof-of-publication and no consensus at all
3319 2014-02-10 21:30:58 <jgarzik> melvster, In a decentralized world, the protocol is the common language linking computers together.
3320 2014-02-10 21:31:13 <petertodd> jgarzik: good to hear! EvalScript() is fun to reimplement, but foolish to use :)
3321 2014-02-10 21:31:19 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3322 2014-02-10 21:31:20 <kanzure> lechuga_: counterparty seems to be a working implementation
3323 2014-02-10 21:31:40 Ninsei_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3324 2014-02-10 21:31:53 <melvster> i guess decentralization is a bit like porn, i cant define it, but I know it when i see it :P
3325 2014-02-10 21:32:34 <jgarzik> xabbix, abrkn, petertodd: That said, we want to fix any bugs we find.  We already fix a heap of bugs, simply completing the incomplete implementation of P2SH and multisig...
3326 2014-02-10 21:32:39 drayah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3327 2014-02-10 21:32:41 <jgarzik> s/we find/anybody finds/
3328 2014-02-10 21:32:54 Cocodude has left ()
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3331 2014-02-10 21:33:16 <petertodd> jgarzik: well see above re: CHECKMULTISIG :P though as you fix bugs, please do update the unittests with test-cases that catch them...
3332 2014-02-10 21:33:47 <jgarzik> petertodd, the goal is to follow and pass all tests in bitcoin.git's src/test/data area
3333 2014-02-10 21:34:01 <petertodd> jgarzik: makes sense
3334 2014-02-10 21:34:28 drayah has joined
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3337 2014-02-10 21:35:47 <petertodd> jgarzik: oh, btw colored coins is using my pythonize branch, though only for the RPC code; they have a pile of code from something else reimplementing the scripting stuff :/
3338 2014-02-10 21:36:32 buggin_out1 has joined
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3342 2014-02-10 21:38:13 <jgarzik> petertodd, I noted that I would clean up pynode, if pythonize was suitable for merging
3343 2014-02-10 21:38:17 profreid has quit (Quit: profreid)
3344 2014-02-10 21:38:43 <petertodd> jgarzik: yeah, I should fix SignatureHash()...
3345 2014-02-10 21:39:37 jbitcm- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3350 2014-02-10 21:41:08 <edcba> we should ban "top ten list" words from here...
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3352 2014-02-10 21:42:20 drayah has joined
3353 2014-02-10 21:42:26 <edcba> i wonder why someone thought txid was a good identifier for transactions
3354 2014-02-10 21:42:29 <jgarzik> petertodd, should be fixed in my master branch?
3355 2014-02-10 21:42:58 <jgarzik> edcba, <shrug>  I don't blame people for that.  It looks and often behaves identifier-ish.
3356 2014-02-10 21:43:13 askmike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3357 2014-02-10 21:43:15 <jgarzik> Bitcoin: Where Even Smart People Get It Wrong. Often.
3358 2014-02-10 21:43:24 <edcba> hahaa
3359 2014-02-10 21:44:19 <goodbtc> Bitcoin: We try to make world smarter. We try!
3360 2014-02-10 21:44:20 <gmaxwell> well it's an identifer ... for the full binary serialization of the transaction— really important in network relaying and such.
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3364 2014-02-10 21:45:25 <dugo> edcba: becuase it was the simplest thing .. see Gavin ..: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=807.0
3365 2014-02-10 21:45:29 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3366 2014-02-10 21:46:54 <sipa> any interesting updates the past few hours?
3367 2014-02-10 21:47:03 Bear13yte has joined
3368 2014-02-10 21:47:40 drayah_ has joined
3369 2014-02-10 21:47:40 <goodbtc> no, we wait for you to get us out of troubles :)
3370 2014-02-10 21:47:49 askmike has joined
3371 2014-02-10 21:47:51 <edcba> i doubt it except i will have to wait a little bit more to spend coins :)
3372 2014-02-10 21:48:37 rdymac has joined
3373 2014-02-10 21:48:39 <jgarzik> sipa, not really
3374 2014-02-10 21:49:07 skarloey has joined
3375 2014-02-10 21:49:09 <jgarzik> sipa, it's gonna snow in Atlanta, GA!  Ice on the roads.  Very exciting.
3376 2014-02-10 21:49:09 <edcba> maybe we need the fundation to issue some words a bit more reassuring than there are 9 worst issues than that ? :)
3377 2014-02-10 21:50:35 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3378 2014-02-10 21:50:38 <goodbtc> like this? https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/
3379 2014-02-10 21:50:46 <jgarzik> edcba, a BF salvo^Wblog post was launched earlier
3380 2014-02-10 21:51:29 <sipa> so, i'm not going to push or try to get any further involved in this
3381 2014-02-10 21:51:42 <sipa> i've written up my proposal, and a demo implementation
3382 2014-02-10 21:51:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: I prodded some people on the forum who were excited about it to look at it.
3383 2014-02-10 21:52:11 <sipa> but if this is actually what's holding back mtgox doing payouts again... i've done my part
3384 2014-02-10 21:52:12 <lechuga_> whats the url for that
3385 2014-02-10 21:52:27 <sipa> bitcoin-dev mailinglist post
3386 2014-02-10 21:52:31 <edcba> goodbtc: hmm yes
3387 2014-02-10 21:53:07 indomiti has joined
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3394 2014-02-10 21:55:17 <edcba> anyway usd/btc change shouldn't matter to future of btc, it will always serve exchange of online services/goods
3395 2014-02-10 21:55:31 buggin_out1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3396 2014-02-10 21:56:15 <lechuga_> sipa: minor typo in the bip proposal 'februrari'
3397 2014-02-10 21:56:43 <lechuga_> 'februari'*
3398 2014-02-10 21:57:22 drayah_ has joined
3399 2014-02-10 21:57:29 <sipa> lechuga_: fixed
3400 2014-02-10 21:58:01 <lechuga_> but this looks gr8 btw
3401 2014-02-10 21:58:21 <sipa> as petertodd already pointed out, it's not actually enough
3402 2014-02-10 21:58:25 <dugo> sipa: like the idea of normalized transaction ids .. will give it a spin
3403 2014-02-10 21:58:27 drayah__ has joined
3404 2014-02-10 21:58:35 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3405 2014-02-10 21:58:46 <lechuga_> what does it miss
3406 2014-02-10 21:59:14 <lechuga_> oh nm
3407 2014-02-10 21:59:33 rivaler has quit (Quit: rivaler)
3408 2014-02-10 21:59:33 <lechuga_> i see it now
3409 2014-02-10 21:59:37 drayah___ has joined
3410 2014-02-10 21:59:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: that isn't enough?
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3415 2014-02-10 22:00:42 <sipa> wait, the extra op_0 that's necessary for checkmultisig
3416 2014-02-10 22:00:56 <lechuga_> is that what he means by op_false
3417 2014-02-10 22:01:03 <sipa> does it go in the scriptsig or the scriptpubkey?
3418 2014-02-10 22:01:18 drayah has joined
3419 2014-02-10 22:01:24 <lechuga_> pubkey i thought
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3429 2014-02-10 22:05:08 <petertodd> jgarzik: master is fine; pythonize just broke it that's all
3430 2014-02-10 22:05:34 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3431 2014-02-10 22:05:36 <petertodd> sipa: correct, checkmultisigs can have the op_0 mutated to something else because it's only dropped
3432 2014-02-10 22:06:52 <sipa> petertodd: but it's usually put in the scriptPubKey?
3433 2014-02-10 22:06:59 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
3434 2014-02-10 22:07:02 <petertodd> sipa: no, the dummy op_0 in the scriptSig
3435 2014-02-10 22:07:02 gubatron has joined
3436 2014-02-10 22:07:04 Ostkaka has quit (Quit: is only smells)
3437 2014-02-10 22:07:08 <sipa> ow
3438 2014-02-10 22:07:14 CodeShark has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3439 2014-02-10 22:07:16 <sipa> yeah, that certainly needs protection then
3440 2014-02-10 22:07:17 draya____ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3441 2014-02-10 22:07:30 <petertodd> sipa: we don't even check it right now
3442 2014-02-10 22:07:47 tjopper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3443 2014-02-10 22:07:48 <sipa> however, a checkmultisig always needs all signatures to be valid, right?
3444 2014-02-10 22:07:49 CodeShark has joined
3445 2014-02-10 22:07:56 <sipa> you provide exactly as many as necessary
3446 2014-02-10 22:07:58 <petertodd> sipa: yes
3447 2014-02-10 22:08:14 <gubatron> hi there, anybody developing on mac, have you been able to use gdb, or are you using lldb? (I keep getting an error with gdb not being able to attach to the process because gdb is not an apple signed app...grrr)
3448 2014-02-10 22:08:19 drayah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3449 2014-02-10 22:08:40 <petertodd> sipa: although I've seen ones get mined that had extras that weren't... not sure what's gong on there
3450 2014-02-10 22:08:49 tjopper has joined
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3460 2014-02-10 22:12:54 <todamoon> is there any project to build a bitcoin client more suited for shared wallets?
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3466 2014-02-10 22:14:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What's the rule of thumb for transaction sizes again?
3467 2014-02-10 22:14:11 Blackreign has joined
3468 2014-02-10 22:14:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(number of bytes for each input and output)
3469 2014-02-10 22:15:58 iKant has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2)
3470 2014-02-10 22:16:15 <gubatron> does the bitcoin-qt wallet have an internal setting to run in lightweight mode, or has it been architected to always be a full node and users looking for a lightweight wallet should use another wallet altogether?
3471 2014-02-10 22:16:17 bebopzzz has quit (Quit: bebopzzz)
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3480 2014-02-10 22:17:31 <sipa> gubatron: it isn't architected to be only ever a full node, but right now it doesn't support anything else
3481 2014-02-10 22:17:33 glebe has joined
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3485 2014-02-10 22:19:18 <todamoon> where can I see how large is the blockchain without downloading it? any website with this stat?
3486 2014-02-10 22:19:40 Framedragger has joined
3487 2014-02-10 22:19:48 <petertodd> sipa: actually never mind, the tx I was thinking of is 78f2b2c726167eed60f4131c2304467bfe5c14c49cfb1a2eb0d61ef726f253ed, and it was mined with eligius, so it's just a case of an extra item left on the stack
3488 2014-02-10 22:20:31 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
3489 2014-02-10 22:21:07 <gubatron> sipa, thanks! does the core rpc interface has what it takes to run as a lightweight wallet? (sorry for all the silly questions, I've recently started hacking away the src/qt source code and this is an issue I think would bring great value to the qtclient)
3490 2014-02-10 22:22:12 <sipa> gubatron: i don't understand the question - it cannot function as a lightweight client
3491 2014-02-10 22:22:24 <sipa> whether the api supports is it not very relevant
3492 2014-02-10 22:22:37 orperelman has joined
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3494 2014-02-10 22:23:30 <gubatron> sipa, thought all the functionality of the UI is just a representation of what the core has access to... if the core could act as a lightweight client then...
3495 2014-02-10 22:24:06 <todamoon> gubatron: it can't afaik
3496 2014-02-10 22:24:23 <sipa> oh once the core + wallet implementation support lightweight operation, it wouldn't be too hard to make the UI compatible with that
3497 2014-02-10 22:24:28 <sipa> but right now, it doesn't
3498 2014-02-10 22:24:31 <gubatron> ack
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3500 2014-02-10 22:26:33 oPen_syLar has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3501 2014-02-10 22:27:20 <Goonie> Are there any signs of the transaction malleability issue trying to be exploited in the wild (except MtGox of course)??
3502 2014-02-10 22:27:41 <Goonie> I'm asking because I start getting reports of Bitcoin Wallet users who get "mutants".
3503 2014-02-10 22:28:15 <sipa> yes
3504 2014-02-10 22:28:43 <sipa> i've seen several reports the past days
3505 2014-02-10 22:28:45 <Goonie> To me it looks like there is some effort going on to trick all the other wallets. Or something like this.
3506 2014-02-10 22:28:48 Jere_Jones has joined
3507 2014-02-10 22:28:54 <warren> "Gitian seems like a great way to go for various reasons but it also impedes our ability to replicate the builds easily."
3508 2014-02-10 22:28:56 <warren> what
3509 2014-02-10 22:29:05 <Goonie> sipa: Reports for which wallet?
3510 2014-02-10 22:29:14 <sipa> bitcoin-qt
3511 2014-02-10 22:29:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|warren: Uh?
3512 2014-02-10 22:29:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Where's that from?
3513 2014-02-10 22:29:37 <warren> #3575
3514 2014-02-10 22:29:39 <Goonie> How does bitcoin-qt behave if you get a mutant?
3515 2014-02-10 22:29:53 Bear13yte has quit (Quit: Bear13yte)
3516 2014-02-10 22:29:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Goonie: the second one appears, the first one hangs around unconfirmed
3517 2014-02-10 22:30:03 pierre` has joined
3518 2014-02-10 22:30:11 <Goonie> So the first one is not being marked as "dead"?
3519 2014-02-10 22:30:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wallet balance updates correctly, account balance may get messed up.
3520 2014-02-10 22:30:17 <sipa> Goonie: no
3521 2014-02-10 22:30:32 <Goonie> Oh that's bad (I guess).
3522 2014-02-10 22:30:55 <sipa> it's far worse for actual double spends than here
3523 2014-02-10 22:30:56 mattco has joined
3524 2014-02-10 22:31:04 <sipa> as the resulting set of available utxo is identicaal
3525 2014-02-10 22:31:33 <sipa> attempts to spend unconfirmed change may fail, though
3526 2014-02-10 22:31:38 <sipa> which is bad, but temporary
3527 2014-02-10 22:32:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, who had that fee monitor?
3528 2014-02-10 22:32:22 <Goonie> sipa: How would you expect bitcoin-qt to behave in this case?
3529 2014-02-10 22:32:28 piuk has joined
3530 2014-02-10 22:32:28 <Goonie> (ideally)
3531 2014-02-10 22:32:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or, who happens to know the average fee per kilobyte these days?
3532 2014-02-10 22:32:44 andytoshi has joined
3533 2014-02-10 22:33:12 <sipa> Goonie: marking a transaction as dead sounds like the right approach
3534 2014-02-10 22:33:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Goonie: 21:42:32 <Luke-Jr> it would probably be best if B-Qt in the future tracked when TxnA is replaced by TxnB and treated them as the same in a UI sense
3535 2014-02-10 22:33:38 <sipa> that sounds even better, but harder
3536 2014-02-10 22:33:48 <sipa> as it means moving away from the per-txid view
3537 2014-02-10 22:33:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Indeed.
3538 2014-02-10 22:33:54 mattco1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3539 2014-02-10 22:33:58 <Goonie> I would tend to agree with michagogo|cloud / Luke-Jr.
3540 2014-02-10 22:34:05 <sipa> yes, i agree too
3541 2014-02-10 22:34:07 caktux has joined
3542 2014-02-10 22:34:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hey, did bc.i change its logo?
3543 2014-02-10 22:34:50 maz0 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3544 2014-02-10 22:35:20 <piuk> michagogo|cloud: a couple of days ago, the site will be getting a new design soon
3545 2014-02-10 22:35:27 <Goonie> Would it be an option to just remove the "overridden" txid in case it is an exact copy (comparing their normalized forms). That way, the per-txid view can stay as it is.
3546 2014-02-10 22:35:28 <jakov> yesterday we were talking about transaction id malleability
3547 2014-02-10 22:35:32 sacrelege has joined
3548 2014-02-10 22:35:37 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3549 2014-02-10 22:35:45 <jakov> today everyone in bitcoin knows about that, thanks gox
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3555 2014-02-10 22:37:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|piuk: Er, are you down?
3556 2014-02-10 22:37:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Getting an error from cloudflare, Error 524 Ray ID: fac44733fe602ff A timeout occurred
3557 2014-02-10 22:37:42 <sipa> Goonie: makes sense
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3560 2014-02-10 22:37:53 <sipa> bitcoin even has code for detecting replacements
3561 2014-02-10 22:38:02 <sipa> but it's disabled
3562 2014-02-10 22:38:15 <Goonie> oh, why that?
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3564 2014-02-10 22:38:32 <sipa> it's not meant for malleability - i doubt satoshi knew about that
3565 2014-02-10 22:38:46 <sipa> it's intended for upgrading transactions (sequence id and locktime & stuff)
3566 2014-02-10 22:38:58 <Goonie> Ah ok that kind of replacement
3567 2014-02-10 22:39:06 <piuk> michagogo|cloud: pretty sure its cloudflare
3568 2014-02-10 22:39:06 <piuk> michagogo|cloud: internally seems fine
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3596 2014-02-10 22:51:43 deanclkclk has joined
3597 2014-02-10 22:52:25 <deanclkclk> hello?
3598 2014-02-10 22:52:29 <deanclkclk> I hope someone can help me here...i've been posting on #bitcoin for 2 days with no response
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3600 2014-02-10 22:52:40 <deanclkclk> is it good to do getnewaddress and associate it with an account?
3601 2014-02-10 22:52:44 <lechuga_> whats the question
3602 2014-02-10 22:52:44 <deanclkclk> because, if my payment is confirm via a callback from bitcoind, how would I be able to associate the address with my client?
3603 2014-02-10 22:52:55 <deanclkclk> so I meant -> bitcoind getnewaddress account
3604 2014-02-10 22:53:22 <deanclkclk> someone told me it's a bad idea to associate address with account because, it's not acid compliant
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3606 2014-02-10 22:54:14 <lechuga_> when you call getnewaddress the address i tracked by bitcoind
3607 2014-02-10 22:54:14 <lechuga_> is*
3608 2014-02-10 22:54:22 <lechuga_> its not just simply creating an address
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3614 2014-02-10 22:55:50 <lechuga_> if you are building a service that you expect to scale you probably should not use accounts at all
3615 2014-02-10 22:56:25 <lechuga_> bitcoind accounts that is
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3618 2014-02-10 22:57:22 <deanclkclk> ok
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3621 2014-02-10 22:58:25 <lechuga_> is that what you're doing?
3622 2014-02-10 22:58:45 <deanclkclk> but, how would that address the requirement when -walletnofify is called, which in turn call myself to check if the transfer has 6 confirmations....which in that case I would update user->transaction table with the transfer but, how would I be able to associate the transatction with the user?
3623 2014-02-10 22:58:51 <deanclkclk> yes
3624 2014-02-10 22:59:06 <lechuga_> you would track the addresses as some collection associated with the user in your own db
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3626 2014-02-10 22:59:24 <lechuga_> so you would call getnewaddress and store the result under the desired user in your db
3627 2014-02-10 22:59:40 <lechuga_> then on walletnotify u run through the txouts and if you find one payable to an address you track
3628 2014-02-10 22:59:47 <lechuga_> you manage their balance appropriately
3629 2014-02-10 22:59:58 <deanclkclk> pk
3630 2014-02-10 23:00:01 <deanclkclk> ok
3631 2014-02-10 23:00:18 <deanclkclk> that makes sense
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3633 2014-02-10 23:01:23 <deanclkclk> but,what if I associate the address with a user and the user say "User A" doesn't do the transfer but, User B calls getnewaddress...would it in some future case get the same address I associate with User A?
3634 2014-02-10 23:01:58 <gubatron> deanclkclk, just out of curiosity as I've not done anything server based. Do you need an instance of bitcoind per user? or can bitcoind handle lots of Wallet instances?
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3636 2014-02-10 23:02:14 <deanclkclk> the latter gubatron
3637 2014-02-10 23:02:23 <gubatron> awesome... wonder wtf mtgox was doing then
3638 2014-02-10 23:02:37 <deanclkclk> what were they doing?
3639 2014-02-10 23:02:47 <deanclkclk> I heard folks can't draw btc
3640 2014-02-10 23:03:18 <gubatron> they had custom wallet software which didn't implement fixes for tx malleability bugs from a year ago.
3641 2014-02-10 23:03:41 <gubatron> now they're blaming it on bitcoind developers... as if they didn't do enough damage yet to Bitcoin's reputation
3642 2014-02-10 23:03:56 <lechuga_> deanclkclkr: you will always get a unique address
3643 2014-02-10 23:04:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gubatron: One bitcoind is one wallet
3644 2014-02-10 23:05:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|deanclkclk: Each call to getnewaddress gets a new address
3645 2014-02-10 23:05:09 <todamoon> not trolling... how to track transaction inputs when using bitcoind's sendtoaddress ?
3646 2014-02-10 23:05:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|todamoon: What do you mean by "track transaction inputs"?
3647 2014-02-10 23:06:15 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
3648 2014-02-10 23:06:29 <todamoon> michagogo|cloud: well since you can't safely use txid... the only way to make sure a transaction didn't go through is to track transaction inputs it seems
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3653 2014-02-10 23:09:43 <wallet42> how many outputs have ever been created?
3654 2014-02-10 23:10:29 Framedragger has joined
3655 2014-02-10 23:11:48 <skinnkavaj> Everytime Bitcoin crashes this channel is full of life again, I love it! More crashes
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3657 2014-02-10 23:12:31 <jgarzik> so,
3658 2014-02-10 23:12:50 <jgarzik> BitPay.com is live with payment protocol, in soft launch.  As is, "shhh, dev only"
3659 2014-02-10 23:13:01 <jgarzik> Let me know if you want to test, especially wallet authors
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3663 2014-02-10 23:15:23 <jakov> skinnkavaj especially since this crash has a technical / dev element in it
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3671 2014-02-10 23:17:42 <todamoon> jgarzik: where can i read up on this payment protocol?
3672 2014-02-10 23:18:09 <jgarzik> todamoon, BIP 70-73
3673 2014-02-10 23:18:23 <todamoon> jgarzik: thanks
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3684 2014-02-10 23:23:43 <wallet42> jgarzik: i just did a payment
3685 2014-02-10 23:23:55 <wallet42> saw the r= in the url :)
3686 2014-02-10 23:24:03 <wallet42> worked nice
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3693 2014-02-10 23:26:18 <wallet42> and the android wallet had also a different view than for normal payments
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3697 2014-02-10 23:26:36 <wallet42> but the bitpay view did not refresh when 0 conf arived, i had to hit the refresh button
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3738 2014-02-10 23:57:59 <jakov> theres some node out there
3739 2014-02-10 23:58:10 <jakov> using malleable transactions
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