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   9 2014-02-11 00:08:52 <dugo> maybe i should make my node drop forge overy tx as a matter of principle
  10 2014-02-11 00:09:35 <todamoon> on the positive side of things, 1 BTC still trades for exactly 1 BTC
  11 2014-02-11 00:10:05 <todamoon> oops, wrong channel, sorry
  12 2014-02-11 00:13:41 netg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  13 2014-02-11 00:15:10 <jakov> dugo im 99% sure some node out there is doing that
  14 2014-02-11 00:15:15 coiners has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  15 2014-02-11 00:15:23 <jakov> or a certain probability of relayed tx
  16 2014-02-11 00:15:32 one_zero has joined
  17 2014-02-11 00:15:47 <jakov> if you look, some people are reporting doublespends cause by malleable txids
  18 2014-02-11 00:15:54 <jakov> mildly annoying
  19 2014-02-11 00:16:03 <jakov> long term good if it stops people relying on txid
  20 2014-02-11 00:16:11 <jakov> This Is Actually Good News : D
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  22 2014-02-11 00:17:07 <muhoo> what should be relied upon instead of txid?
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  24 2014-02-11 00:17:32 <dugo> txid, but only after firm establishment in chain, no!?
  25 2014-02-11 00:17:34 <lianj> muhoo: spent inputs
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  30 2014-02-11 00:19:43 <jakov> or outputs
  31 2014-02-11 00:19:56 <Goonie> Short explanation how mutant transactions are shown in Bitcoin Wallet: https://plus.google.com/b/101256420499771441772/101256420499771441772/posts/bURxFhrKfcq
  32 2014-02-11 00:21:09 <muhoo> skinnkavaj: bunch people like me sticking their heads in to ask "wtf?" and get educated.
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  34 2014-02-11 00:21:52 <Aahzmundus> ^
  35 2014-02-11 00:23:03 <dugo> right, imagine receiving a confirmation mail, we just payed you, in case of trouble, please refer to the following reference <insert big festering pile of hex>
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  38 2014-02-11 00:26:28 <edcba> dugo: that's what url are for ?
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  55 2014-02-11 00:39:43 <dugo> would do, i'd prefer a drop forge proof hash though..
  56 2014-02-11 00:39:56 <dugo> .. any gaping holes in here? https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/1173eef630783a822d9a709cfbc22ba91880231e
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  94 2014-02-11 00:57:40 <lechuga_> im wondering if bitcoin is too accessible
  95 2014-02-11 00:57:58 KillYourTV has joined
  96 2014-02-11 00:57:59 <lechuga_> there are probably so many broken web services being created which process bitcoin
  97 2014-02-11 00:58:04 Zifre has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  98 2014-02-11 00:58:15 <lechuga_> if gox did it im sure theres at least 100 more
  99 2014-02-11 00:59:14 <lechuga_> everyone is going to think building a payment processor is as simple as crafting a little bit of php
 100 2014-02-11 00:59:20 <lechuga_> well maybe not now
 101 2014-02-11 00:59:33 Lexa has joined
 102 2014-02-11 00:59:48 <aynstein> the problems involving *bsd and bitcoind are way in the past right?
 103 2014-02-11 01:01:42 Starduster has quit (Quit: gotta go)
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 110 2014-02-11 01:05:47 <wilsonnl> anyone in here that can help me with some compiling issues on Mavericks?
 111 2014-02-11 01:06:10 <maaku> wilsonnl: post the issues
 112 2014-02-11 01:06:19 <maaku> (ask, don't ask to ask)
 113 2014-02-11 01:07:22 _alp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 114 2014-02-11 01:07:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Grrr... bc.i's unspent output lookup API returns TXIDs byteswapped -_-
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 117 2014-02-11 01:08:37 <wilsonnl> after i type "make -f makefile.osx" it spits out an error saying: " ld: symbol(s) not found for architecture x86_64"
 118 2014-02-11 01:08:51 n0n0 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 124 2014-02-11 01:11:47 <paracyst> you have to update xcode
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 126 2014-02-11 01:12:07 <wilsonnl> just installed it on a fresh vmware image
 127 2014-02-11 01:12:43 tresor has quit ()
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 129 2014-02-11 01:14:04 <lechuga_> vmware supports osx images?
 130 2014-02-11 01:14:04 aynstein has quit (Quit: i hate long goodbyes)
 131 2014-02-11 01:14:34 <wilsonnl> yeah running 10.8 and 10.9 on windows using vmware
 132 2014-02-11 01:14:41 <lechuga_> cool
 133 2014-02-11 01:14:53 <wilsonnl> yeah its handy
 134 2014-02-11 01:15:05 <lechuga_> i thought they only supportes windows/linux images
 135 2014-02-11 01:15:09 <lechuga_> supported*
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 138 2014-02-11 01:15:40 <wilsonnl> yeah you have to fiddle with it, but it's possible
 139 2014-02-11 01:15:56 rabadaka has joined
 140 2014-02-11 01:16:08 <wilsonnl> but for some reason compiling lite/bitcoind on mavericks is a pain
 141 2014-02-11 01:16:09 Hrumph has joined
 142 2014-02-11 01:16:19 <wilsonnl> it worked fine on 10.8 (mountain lion)
 143 2014-02-11 01:16:59 <wilsonnl> but if i compile it on mountain lion it won't run on mavericks (10.9
 144 2014-02-11 01:17:19 <lechuga_> it doesnt say what symbols arent found?
 145 2014-02-11 01:17:25 mailaa has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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 147 2014-02-11 01:17:48 <wilsonnl> hmmz let em check
 148 2014-02-11 01:18:43 <wilsonnl> hers a pastebin: http://pastebin.com/sJGtTvRD
 149 2014-02-11 01:19:37 K1773R has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 150 2014-02-11 01:21:13 <lechuga_> check here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3228
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 152 2014-02-11 01:21:33 <gmaxwell> kpit_d: /window 5
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 154 2014-02-11 01:21:37 <gmaxwell> ooops
 155 2014-02-11 01:21:43 <wilsonnl> haha nice, im reading that same page (again)
 156 2014-02-11 01:21:52 <wilsonnl> i dont understand how to use the: ./configure stuff
 157 2014-02-11 01:22:19 <wilsonnl> i installed the boost libs using brew, have them in "=/usr/local/Cellar/boost/1.55.0/lib"
 158 2014-02-11 01:23:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wilsonnl: have you read https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-osx.md ?
 159 2014-02-11 01:24:05 <lechuga_> id try the last guys comment
 160 2014-02-11 01:24:18 <lechuga_> just paste the command he used
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 162 2014-02-11 01:25:19 <wilsonnl> @lechuga_ if i paste that it gives me an error saying it cant find the file/folder specified
 163 2014-02-11 01:25:23 gotnate has joined
 164 2014-02-11 01:25:23 <andytoshi> anyone here familiar with autotools? AX_CHECK_LINK_FLAG macro is not expanding in my configure.ac
 165 2014-02-11 01:25:30 oPen_syLar has joined
 166 2014-02-11 01:25:31 <andytoshi> so it appears in ./configure verbatim and bash bombs out on it
 167 2014-02-11 01:25:38 <wilsonnl> @michagogo|cloud reading it now
 168 2014-02-11 01:25:38 <DiabloD3> andytoshi: thats AX
 169 2014-02-11 01:25:50 <DiabloD3> andytoshi: you probably forgot to include the actual macro for it
 170 2014-02-11 01:25:59 <andytoshi> DiabloD3: it's in my m4/ directory
 171 2014-02-11 01:26:18 <andytoshi> bitcoind doesn't do anything beyond that it seems
 172 2014-02-11 01:26:27 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 173 2014-02-11 01:26:27 <DiabloD3> hrm.
 174 2014-02-11 01:26:31 <DiabloD3> weird.
 175 2014-02-11 01:26:54 <DiabloD3> because it sounds like you're forgetting to call a command somewhere
 176 2014-02-11 01:27:26 davout has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 177 2014-02-11 01:27:47 <DiabloD3> andytoshi: like, the typical autogen.sh is alocal, autoheader, autoconf
 178 2014-02-11 01:27:50 <DiabloD3> er, aclocal
 179 2014-02-11 01:27:54 K1773R has joined
 180 2014-02-11 01:28:02 <andytoshi> oh, i only have autoconf
 181 2014-02-11 01:28:09 <DiabloD3> yeah you need aclocal too
 182 2014-02-11 01:28:23 <DiabloD3> and automake after autoconf if you're using that lemon
 183 2014-02-11 01:28:56 <andytoshi> oh, i have autoreconf. it does all that
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 186 2014-02-11 01:29:11 <andytoshi> the offensive file is https://github.com/apoelstra/cj-client/blob/master/configure.ac
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 188 2014-02-11 01:29:40 <DiabloD3> I dont trust autoreconf
 189 2014-02-11 01:29:44 <DiabloD3> it sometimes goes tits up
 190 2014-02-11 01:29:51 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 191 2014-02-11 01:29:56 <DiabloD3> I dont like how autotools is largely undocumented magic
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 195 2014-02-11 01:30:33 <DiabloD3> andytoshi: try doing aclocal; autoconf and see if it fixes it
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 198 2014-02-11 01:31:43 <andytoshi> DiabloD3: will do. btw i can see that in aclocal.m4 for bitcoind the correct file is included, but not in aclocal.m4 for my project
 199 2014-02-11 01:32:03 <andytoshi> so i think you're right, the magic is failing
 200 2014-02-11 01:32:41 <DiabloD3> yeah, and its always fuuuuuuuuuun to debug that
 201 2014-02-11 01:32:47 <DiabloD3> and by fun I mean you want to firebomb RMS's house
 202 2014-02-11 01:33:07 caktux has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 203 2014-02-11 01:33:07 caktux_ is now known as caktux
 204 2014-02-11 01:33:15 <DiabloD3> and by house, I mean his van down by the river
 205 2014-02-11 01:33:35 <lechuga_> does rms really live in a van?
 206 2014-02-11 01:33:41 <andytoshi> hahaha
 207 2014-02-11 01:33:45 <lechuga_> i wouldnt be shocked
 208 2014-02-11 01:33:47 <lechuga_> hes kinda out there
 209 2014-02-11 01:33:50 <andytoshi> (i don't know either)
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 215 2014-02-11 01:36:59 <lechuga_>  For personal reasons, he generally does not actively browse the web from his computer; rather, he uses wget and reads the fetched pages from his e-mail mailbox, claiming to limit direct access via browsers to a few sites such as his own or those related to his work with GNU and the FSF.
 216 2014-02-11 01:37:06 <lechuga_> man he mustve been owned a ton
 217 2014-02-11 01:37:13 <lechuga_> to go to those lengths
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 221 2014-02-11 01:37:58 <andytoshi> got it, thx DiabloD3. the toplevel Makefile.am needed ACLOCAL_AMFLAGS = -Im4
 222 2014-02-11 01:38:08 <andytoshi> (one of the magic commands told me to put that line in that file)
 223 2014-02-11 01:38:21 <DiabloD3> andytoshi: yeah, you need to start with a working makefile.am
 224 2014-02-11 01:38:30 <DiabloD3> you cant just write one from scratch when using other autotools
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 234 2014-02-11 01:41:12 <da2ce7> hey, of the top of you head's can anyone please tell me the pull request that sorted the bitcoin header files?
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 239 2014-02-11 01:41:40 <da2ce7> and cleaned up the unnecessary #includes,
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 259 2014-02-11 01:49:13 <dexX7> https://blockchain.info/charts/n-orphaned-blocks?timespan=2year&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address= kinda large spike in orphaned blocks recently?
 260 2014-02-11 01:49:55 caktux_ has joined
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 262 2014-02-11 01:50:45 <lianj> dugo: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/1173eef630783a822d9a709cfbc22ba91880231e#diff-9c8594b107c5d10b42944ad46a2f1a76R82 does this just return https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/blob/1173eef630783a822d9a709cfbc22ba91880231e/src/script.cpp#L1075
 263 2014-02-11 01:50:48 Tray_ has joined
 264 2014-02-11 01:50:50 <lianj> *doesn't
 265 2014-02-11 01:51:03 owowo has joined
 266 2014-02-11 01:51:33 majoh has joined
 267 2014-02-11 01:51:40 <lianj> so the hash is always 0100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 due to the return 1 bug
 268 2014-02-11 01:52:08 denisx has joined
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 273 2014-02-11 01:53:17 <ZjP> What on earth is mtgox talking about. The solution is years old and enforcing DER, no?
 274 2014-02-11 01:54:45 antephialtic has joined
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 277 2014-02-11 01:55:16 <lianj> ZjP: no
 278 2014-02-11 01:55:18 <lianj> but yea
 279 2014-02-11 01:55:31 Tray_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 280 2014-02-11 01:55:40 <ZjP> lianj: What?
 281 2014-02-11 01:55:52 paracyst has joined
 282 2014-02-11 01:55:52 <da2ce7> found it, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2767
 283 2014-02-11 01:55:53 cysm has joined
 284 2014-02-11 01:57:30 <lianj> ZjP: just der wouldn't work
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 288 2014-02-11 02:08:39 <mailaa1> rofl
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 294 2014-02-11 02:08:50 mike4 is now known as money
 295 2014-02-11 02:09:20 <mailaa1> someone trid to troll me
 296 2014-02-11 02:09:21 <mailaa1> (02:06:59) chimrichalds: u fuck with me
 297 2014-02-11 02:09:21 <mailaa1> (02:07:04) mailaa: that's fuckig bad
 298 2014-02-11 02:09:21 <mailaa1> (02:07:04) chimrichalds: you fucking with a big dick
 299 2014-02-11 02:09:21 <mailaa1> (02:07:09) chimrichalds: i fuck a lot of women
 300 2014-02-11 02:09:21 <mailaa1> (02:07:11) chimrichalds: they all love me
 301 2014-02-11 02:09:22 <mailaa1> (02:07:13) mailaa: why dont you just kill yourself?
 302 2014-02-11 02:09:22 <mailaa1> (02:07:20) chimrichalds: i feed them
 303 2014-02-11 02:09:23 <mailaa1> (02:07:22) mailaa: why did you tell us all about it?
 304 2014-02-11 02:09:23 <mailaa1> (02:07:27) chimrichalds: i stick my dick in their stomach
 305 2014-02-11 02:09:24 <mailaa1> (02:07:43) mailaa: you know we are bloomberg?
 306 2014-02-11 02:09:24 <mailaa1> (02:07:45) chimrichalds: if i killed myself
 307 2014-02-11 02:09:25 <mailaa1> (02:07:50) chimrichalds: would u wanna watch it
 308 2014-02-11 02:09:25 <mailaa1> (02:07:51) chimrichalds: on stream
 309 2014-02-11 02:09:26 <mailaa1> (02:07:52) mailaa: did somethig badhapp?
 310 2014-02-11 02:09:48 <mailaa1> because i have no limits on how sick i ca say
 311 2014-02-11 02:10:29 <muhoo> please use a pastebin
 312 2014-02-11 02:11:09 <mailaa1> (02:07:52) mailaa: did somethig badhapp?
 313 2014-02-11 02:11:09 <mailaa1> (02:08:10) mailaa: that mae you angry, or are you just naturally a gay?
 314 2014-02-11 02:11:09 <mailaa1> (02:08:11) User is not logged in
 315 2014-02-11 02:11:09 <mailaa1> (02:10:37) mailaa: fuck you
 316 2014-02-11 02:11:09 <mailaa1> (02:10:37) User is not logged in
 317 2014-02-11 02:11:09 <mailaa1> (02:10:39) mailaa: idiot
 318 2014-02-11 02:11:09 <mailaa1> (02:10:40) User is not logged in
 319 2014-02-11 02:11:13 <mailaa1> no
 320 2014-02-11 02:11:53 antephialtic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 334 2014-02-11 02:21:01 michagogo has joined
 335 2014-02-11 02:24:36 <lechuga_> lol
 336 2014-02-11 02:25:18 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
 337 2014-02-11 02:25:20 <lechuga_> ZjP: https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691
 338 2014-02-11 02:25:27 <lechuga_> its more involved than just DER
 339 2014-02-11 02:25:44 brson has joined
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 341 2014-02-11 02:26:12 pgp has joined
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 343 2014-02-11 02:26:15 <lechuga_> i wonder wat would happen to bitcoin if sipa/gmaxwell/gavin/jgarzik just decided they were over it
 344 2014-02-11 02:26:24 <lechuga_> scarier than doublespends
 345 2014-02-11 02:26:33 owowo has quit (Quit: <                            ~~<   K1l20y w45 h323   >~~                           >)
 346 2014-02-11 02:26:56 <gotnate> all? or any? what happened when satoshi quit?
 347 2014-02-11 02:26:58 hmmma1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 348 2014-02-11 02:27:16 <lechuga_> if any of them left it would be a blow but if all left
 349 2014-02-11 02:27:20 Aaaaand-its-gone has joined
 350 2014-02-11 02:27:21 <lechuga_> seems catastrophic
 351 2014-02-11 02:27:22 brson_ has joined
 352 2014-02-11 02:27:45 <ZjP> lechuga_: Yeah, I've saw that since my message. I was confused since the publically visible transaction problems were caused by them failing the DER check. I didn't consider that since this caused them problems, it was implied that they were reliant on transaction ids, and therefore would be vulnerable to malliability in general
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 356 2014-02-11 02:28:33 <gotnate> gox has been doing just fine and dandy at blowing it all by themselves
 357 2014-02-11 02:28:39 traveltrousers has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 358 2014-02-11 02:29:03 <lechuga_> ZjP: yup
 359 2014-02-11 02:29:26 dugo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 360 2014-02-11 02:30:00 <lechuga_> gotnate: satoshi left before any1 used it
 361 2014-02-11 02:30:02 Maged has joined
 362 2014-02-11 02:30:07 <lianj> blowing cheap coins and a upcoming week of confused media reports you mean?
 363 2014-02-11 02:30:09 <lechuga_> keeping it going seems like more of a day to day struggle
 364 2014-02-11 02:31:00 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 365 2014-02-11 02:31:37 dkog has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 366 2014-02-11 02:31:41 <todamoon> to da moooooooooo000000000000on
 367 2014-02-11 02:31:57 dkog has joined
 368 2014-02-11 02:32:05 <todamoon> china is going to da moon
 369 2014-02-11 02:32:17 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 370 2014-02-11 02:32:29 <lechuga_> ive read that too but it would seem slightly offtopic wrt bitcoin development
 371 2014-02-11 02:33:48 InsiderJoe has joined
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 373 2014-02-11 02:34:30 <Luke-Jr> if we're not going to revert OP_RETURN, we should at least make it optional ; wumpus
 374 2014-02-11 02:36:18 dugo has joined
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 376 2014-02-11 02:37:27 <gotnate> i probably don't have enough grasp on the inner workings of the bitcoin protocol, but: "OP_DATAPUSH4 can never be used" is that an operation that exists now that would be forbidden by this change?
 377 2014-02-11 02:37:45 yubrew has joined
 378 2014-02-11 02:38:39 <lechuga_> well there r limits on script sizes
 379 2014-02-11 02:38:51 <lechuga_> u shudnt ever need OP_DATAPUSH4 with current rules
 380 2014-02-11 02:38:53 <gotnate> otherwise, https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691 looks like a good long term change, but i wonder if it needs to be a priority (thanks gox)
 381 2014-02-11 02:39:03 agricocb has joined
 382 2014-02-11 02:39:03 <lechuga_> since its used to push data which requires 4 bytes to represent its length
 383 2014-02-11 02:39:07 <maaku> gotnate: there's nothing you can do with PUSHDATA4 that you can't do with PUSHDATA2 or is otherwise already invalid
 384 2014-02-11 02:39:21 <gotnate> fair enough
 385 2014-02-11 02:39:22 <lechuga_> if u need 4 bytes to represent its length
 386 2014-02-11 02:39:22 <lianj> gotnate: no, its a long term thing
 387 2014-02-11 02:39:24 <gotnate> so it's redundant anyway
 388 2014-02-11 02:39:25 <lechuga_> its already too big :)
 389 2014-02-11 02:39:57 <lechuga_> hes trying to avoid another case of mallebility wher eu use OP_PUSHDATA4 when it isnt necessary
 390 2014-02-11 02:40:24 <gotnate> right, i understand now.
 391 2014-02-11 02:40:30 _ImI_ has quit (Quit: _ImI_)
 392 2014-02-11 02:40:34 <maaku> Luke-Jr: optional OP_RETURN?
 393 2014-02-11 02:40:41 <todamoon> oops wrong chan again :/
 394 2014-02-11 02:42:13 <gotnate> what i mean by priorities, is that i wonder if it is wise to let gox push priorities around like that
 395 2014-02-11 02:42:28 <lechuga_> what do you mean
 396 2014-02-11 02:42:49 <lechuga_> i think this incident has raised the priority in people's minds
 397 2014-02-11 02:43:11 <gotnate> sec, my attention is divided. i need to undivide it and gather my thoughts
 398 2014-02-11 02:43:32 yubrew has quit ()
 399 2014-02-11 02:43:49 <lechuga_> conceptually it isnt as big of an issue but in the real-world with real actors/devs of varying sophistication
 400 2014-02-11 02:43:57 <lechuga_> it seems to matter a bit more than first assumed
 401 2014-02-11 02:44:10 wizkid057 has joined
 402 2014-02-11 02:45:54 <maaku> gotnate: sipa's proposed changes may not close all malleability holes
 403 2014-02-11 02:46:00 brson_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 404 2014-02-11 02:46:10 <gotnate> fair enough. i guess i haven't been paying enough to what the other priorities are. it does make sense to have some effect on priority, but i guess what i mean is i wonder if it is wise to rashly make it crash priority
 405 2014-02-11 02:46:10 <lechuga_> what's missing?
 406 2014-02-11 02:46:18 <gotnate> i agree that long term it needs to happen
 407 2014-02-11 02:46:30 <maaku> which makes gox's behavior silly and immature
 408 2014-02-11 02:46:30 <lechuga_> gotnate: i dont think anyones pushing for the changes to get merged tonight
 409 2014-02-11 02:46:34 <gotnate> i think short term, people *SHOULD* learn the lesson from gox
 410 2014-02-11 02:46:55 lalo_ has joined
 411 2014-02-11 02:47:02 <gotnate> haha, lechuga_ the way i read it, it would be phased in based on mining votes
 412 2014-02-11 02:47:14 TheLordOfTime is now known as teward
 413 2014-02-11 02:47:33 <maaku> gotnate: no one is making it a crash priority. if anything we've been trying to make malleability an issue. doesn't excuse what happened though
 414 2014-02-11 02:47:39 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 415 2014-02-11 02:47:46 <lechuga_> it is a great learning opportunity for devs trying to create a web service
 416 2014-02-11 02:47:54 <gotnate> exactly
 417 2014-02-11 02:47:58 <lechuga_> im just afraid many of them cant see through the haze of carign about gox acting nutty
 418 2014-02-11 02:48:04 johnsoft has joined
 419 2014-02-11 02:48:22 <lechuga_> but hopefully a few actually pay attention to the details
 420 2014-02-11 02:48:26 Imbue has quit (Quit: Imbue)
 421 2014-02-11 02:48:27 <lechuga_> i bet if you dropped sipa
 422 2014-02-11 02:48:32 <lechuga_> 's bip proposal on reddit
 423 2014-02-11 02:48:34 <lechuga_> itd just get lost
 424 2014-02-11 02:48:37 jtimon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 425 2014-02-11 02:48:50 <maaku> lechuga_: it hasn't been adequately shown yet if it is possible to algebraicly modify signatures
 426 2014-02-11 02:48:59 <maaku> for example
 427 2014-02-11 02:49:01 <lechuga_> oh right
 428 2014-02-11 02:49:04 selen has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 429 2014-02-11 02:49:11 <lechuga_> the whack-a-mole reply from petertodd
 430 2014-02-11 02:49:12 fract has joined
 431 2014-02-11 02:49:33 <lechuga_> im of the belief you may as well fix what u know about
 432 2014-02-11 02:49:38 <maaku> right, this just covers the known holes that are known to be fixable
 433 2014-02-11 02:49:42 <lechuga_> and if u coem to find out u dont know it all
 434 2014-02-11 02:49:43 <lechuga_> well fix it again
 435 2014-02-11 02:50:02 <maaku> but people should still assume transactions are malleable afterwards and act accordingly
 436 2014-02-11 02:50:04 <gotnate> and then it becomes a microsoftian game of cat and mouse
 437 2014-02-11 02:50:09 <lechuga_> maaku: thats fair
 438 2014-02-11 02:50:22 <NeatBasis> it never seizes to amaze me how much silly people are. We've been laughing at mt.gox for such a long time now it's just insane how much they can still affect some people
 439 2014-02-11 02:51:29 Tray_ has joined
 440 2014-02-11 02:52:24 <lechuga_> maaku: in fact, i wonder if that should be explicitly called out int he BIP
 441 2014-02-11 02:52:27 <NeatBasis> What I don't get is why did they implement a custom wallet instead of creating a layer between their trading platform and bitcoind
 442 2014-02-11 02:52:38 <lechuga_> "pls continue to assume malleability, thx"
 443 2014-02-11 02:52:46 <maaku> lechuga_: probably...
 444 2014-02-11 02:53:03 attilah has joined
 445 2014-02-11 02:53:28 <maaku> NeatBasis: that's what their custom wallet is...
 446 2014-02-11 02:53:59 <gotnate> would it be possible to rename it from transaction ID to a term that makes it clear that it is not an identifier until it gets onto the blockchain
 447 2014-02-11 02:54:19 <NeatBasis> It might be a big win for bitcoin if the malleability issue was dealt with quickly.
 448 2014-02-11 02:54:50 <lechuga_> neatbasis: you cant build a scaleable web service with just bitcoind
 449 2014-02-11 02:54:56 <gotnate> or even make the transaction ID non-existant  until mined
 450 2014-02-11 02:54:57 <NeatBasis> maaku: ok. And they can't even maintain that? wow
 451 2014-02-11 02:55:13 <gotnate> i'm sure i'm showing my ignorance of the inner workings here
 452 2014-02-11 02:55:31 Jere_Jones has joined
 453 2014-02-11 02:55:33 <gotnate> but what is the transaction ID used for before it makes it onto a block?
 454 2014-02-11 02:55:42 <maaku> gotnate: people shouldn't be using transaction ids
 455 2014-02-11 02:55:43 <maaku> that's the issue
 456 2014-02-11 02:55:53 Tray_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 457 2014-02-11 02:56:06 <lechuga_> gotnate: well practically speaking
 458 2014-02-11 02:56:06 <gotnate> maaku: and what i'm proposing is to take the transaction id away from the protocol entirely
 459 2014-02-11 02:56:12 <lechuga_> walletnotify will give u "txids"
 460 2014-02-11 02:56:20 <lechuga_> and if you want the details of one before its in the blockchain
 461 2014-02-11 02:56:23 <lechuga_> u need to referenc eit somehow
 462 2014-02-11 02:56:36 <maaku> gotnate: transactions are not matched by ID in the protocol
 463 2014-02-11 02:56:45 <maaku> they are matched by inputs and outputs
 464 2014-02-11 02:56:51 <maaku> bitcoind handles this correctly
 465 2014-02-11 02:57:07 <NeatBasis> lechuga_ of course not, but it doesn't mean it can't be there somewhere and if there are updates to the protocol you could usually just update bitcoind (or bitcoind in plural)
 466 2014-02-11 02:57:36 <lechuga_> transaction IDs are used by SPV impls
 467 2014-02-11 02:57:51 <Luke-Jr> maaku: 0.9rc always mines/relays data spam, and cannot be told not to
 468 2014-02-11 02:58:00 <money> hi
 469 2014-02-11 02:58:21 <money> is it true that the you developers are going to program a fix for mtgox?
 470 2014-02-11 02:58:32 <NeatBasis> txid has it's purpose, but it should not mean nothing until it's in a block
 471 2014-02-11 02:58:35 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 472 2014-02-11 02:58:35 <lechuga_> not unless they pay me
 473 2014-02-11 02:58:42 <maaku> lechuga_: for transactions which have already made it on the chain
 474 2014-02-11 02:58:45 <NeatBasis> sorry double negative fail
 475 2014-02-11 02:59:21 <money> are you developing a fix for mtgox? about the mutations in the txid?
 476 2014-02-11 02:59:43 <gotnate> NeatBasis: agreed. so make the mining node generate the txnids in the block it's building, rather than in the txn's passed in
 477 2014-02-11 02:59:49 coiners has joined
 478 2014-02-11 03:00:02 edol has joined
 479 2014-02-11 03:01:22 <lechuga_> sendtoaddress should be documented to return a "tentative" txid :)
 480 2014-02-11 03:01:32 troj has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 481 2014-02-11 03:01:34 b3itcoin-dev266 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 482 2014-02-11 03:01:52 <lechuga_> where tenative is hyperlinked to the mallebility wiki entry
 483 2014-02-11 03:01:55 postpre has joined
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 489 2014-02-11 03:02:48 <NeatBasis> gotnate sounds about right. but if you reeeally wanted the wallet to be able to generate the txid(it would be usefull) then it needs to be fixed  in an other way
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 498 2014-02-11 03:03:39 dub has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 499 2014-02-11 03:03:42 ryan-c has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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 504 2014-02-11 03:03:56 ZjP has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 505 2014-02-11 03:04:00 troj has joined
 506 2014-02-11 03:04:00 <maaku> what do you guys mean by "generate the txid"?
 507 2014-02-11 03:04:02 dub has joined
 508 2014-02-11 03:04:03 richardus has joined
 509 2014-02-11 03:04:12 ZjP has joined
 510 2014-02-11 03:04:14 <lechuga_> compute the hash im assuming
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 512 2014-02-11 03:04:31 liori has joined
 513 2014-02-11 03:04:37 ZjP is now known as Guest81212
 514 2014-02-11 03:04:59 jrmithdobbs has joined
 515 2014-02-11 03:05:14 <maaku> a hash is the same no matter where you compute it...
 516 2014-02-11 03:05:25 Goonie has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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 519 2014-02-11 03:05:41 <lechuga_> wish i could edit the wiki
 520 2014-02-11 03:05:55 <lechuga_> i bt updating 'sendtoaddress' would stop a nontrivial # of devs from making the same mistake
 521 2014-02-11 03:05:58 <lechuga_> bet*
 522 2014-02-11 03:06:09 <muhoo> this gist looks very solid from a layman's glance. https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691 will mining software need to change?
 523 2014-02-11 03:06:21 elgrecoFL has quit (Excess Flood)
 524 2014-02-11 03:06:37 elgrecoFL has joined
 525 2014-02-11 03:06:42 <lechuga_> cgminer/bfgminer shouldnt need to change
 526 2014-02-11 03:06:43 pierre` has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 527 2014-02-11 03:07:21 <NeatBasis> maaku whatever method it is that the txid is derived or created from
 528 2014-02-11 03:07:21 <gotnate> the way i read it, the change would have to be in bitcoind (or whatever is feeding blocks to the miner)
 529 2014-02-11 03:07:26 ryan-c has joined
 530 2014-02-11 03:07:27 pierre` has joined
 531 2014-02-11 03:07:48 <muhoo> oic, it uses bip34 for transitioning the network
 532 2014-02-11 03:07:52 Subo1977 has joined
 533 2014-02-11 03:08:33 <maaku> NeatBasis: a transaction id is just the hash of the transaction; it doesn't matter when you calculate that hash; it doesn't change unless you explicitly mess with the transaction
 534 2014-02-11 03:09:38 peper has joined
 535 2014-02-11 03:09:48 <gotnate> i'm sure this would be a hard fork, but what about signing the txnID and broadcasting that signature with the transaction? not sure if that 2nd sig would need to go in the block
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 544 2014-02-11 03:11:32 <maaku> gotnate: that's approaching from the wrong direction
 545 2014-02-11 03:11:39 luke-jr_ has joined
 546 2014-02-11 03:11:41 Coincidental has joined
 547 2014-02-11 03:11:41 <lechuga_> whats to stop someone from signing the mutated txn
 548 2014-02-11 03:11:47 <lechuga_> and who signs it
 549 2014-02-11 03:11:48 <maaku> no one should care what actual transaction get selected
 550 2014-02-11 03:12:01 epscy has joined
 551 2014-02-11 03:12:10 <maaku> so long as one that is functionally identical does get on the chain
 552 2014-02-11 03:12:14 <gotnate> lechuga_: sign it with one of the private keys for the inputs of course
 553 2014-02-11 03:12:20 n0n0 has joined
 554 2014-02-11 03:12:21 <lechuga_> which one
 555 2014-02-11 03:12:28 <gotnate> i don't think that matters
 556 2014-02-11 03:12:34 <gotnate> but if it does... the first one
 557 2014-02-11 03:12:58 <lechuga_> ok how would you do that if the spender is broadcasting the txn
 558 2014-02-11 03:13:38 <gotnate> right before the broadcast?
 559 2014-02-11 03:13:54 <gotnate> or am i missing a detail?
 560 2014-02-11 03:13:57 sacrelege has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 561 2014-02-11 03:14:25 <NeatBasis> maaku thanks for stopping me there. I had it figured out wrong.
 562 2014-02-11 03:14:33 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 563 2014-02-11 03:14:48 <lechuga_> sorry what if it isnt the spender broadcasting the txn
 564 2014-02-11 03:15:10 xabbix has joined
 565 2014-02-11 03:15:12 <NeatBasis> got it now.
 566 2014-02-11 03:15:22 <gotnate> than the txnID would already be signed by the spender
 567 2014-02-11 03:16:15 <gotnate> or is there a case where the txnID is generated, but the inputs aren't yet signed?
 568 2014-02-11 03:16:47 <lechuga_> the inputs make up the txid
 569 2014-02-11 03:17:35 glebe has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 570 2014-02-11 03:17:40 <lechuga_> i think whats you have multiparty inputs things get weird with that approach
 571 2014-02-11 03:17:48 <lechuga_> s/whats/when
 572 2014-02-11 03:18:00 jamiemcnaught has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 573 2014-02-11 03:18:02 <gotnate> ah coinjoin
 574 2014-02-11 03:18:12 <lechuga_> not just coinjoin
 575 2014-02-11 03:18:27 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 576 2014-02-11 03:18:31 jamiemcnaught has joined
 577 2014-02-11 03:18:31 <gotnate> you've convinced me, it's a bad idea
 578 2014-02-11 03:18:46 agricocb has joined
 579 2014-02-11 03:18:47 <gotnate> i like my idea of no txnid's until mined better :p
 580 2014-02-11 03:19:05 Goonie has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 582 2014-02-11 03:19:10 <NeatBasis> well at least the signatures should be canonicalized
 583 2014-02-11 03:19:11 Goonie__ has joined
 584 2014-02-11 03:19:20 <lechuga_> u need some handle to work with txns that arent yet confirmed
 585 2014-02-11 03:19:34 <lechuga_> it should just be emphasized that that handle can change
 586 2014-02-11 03:19:51 upb has joined
 587 2014-02-11 03:19:56 <gotnate> rename txnID to txnHandle
 588 2014-02-11 03:19:56 <gotnate> done
 589 2014-02-11 03:20:25 <lechuga_> or refer to it as a tentative txnid or something to differentiate it
 590 2014-02-11 03:20:40 ZjP has joined
 591 2014-02-11 03:20:44 <lechuga_> just a bit of semantics would rpobably help a bit here
 592 2014-02-11 03:20:54 <lechuga_> i bet most devs look at the rpc list and thats it
 593 2014-02-11 03:21:06 Subo1977_ has joined
 594 2014-02-11 03:21:08 <lechuga_> 'oh ok i see how i could piece together a service'
 595 2014-02-11 03:21:50 n0n0 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
 596 2014-02-11 03:21:59 <lechuga_> 'it returns <txid> ahh wonderful, perfect thing to store, im done'
 597 2014-02-11 03:22:36 <lechuga_> i mean thats almost certainly what gox did
 598 2014-02-11 03:22:46 <gotnate> that does sound right
 599 2014-02-11 03:22:54 <gotnate> sounds like what i would do
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 601 2014-02-11 03:22:57 <dexX7> +1
 602 2014-02-11 03:22:59 <lechuga_> :)
 603 2014-02-11 03:23:04 <gotnate> but i also wouldn't sit on it for 4 years once i find out about it
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 606 2014-02-11 03:23:22 <gotnate> 3 years
 607 2014-02-11 03:23:34 <lechuga_> its easy to make that claim in hindsight
 608 2014-02-11 03:23:37 * gotnate continually proves his poor math skills
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 610 2014-02-11 03:24:18 <lechuga_> it doesnt open up doublespend potential so it isnt *that* scary
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 612 2014-02-11 03:24:33 <gotnate> so rename txnID to tentativeMutableTxnID
 613 2014-02-11 03:24:37 <lechuga_> lol
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 615 2014-02-11 03:24:54 <lechuga_> i think making a minor change to the docs could help ya :)
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 618 2014-02-11 03:25:09 <gotnate> except for the dvelopers who don't read the docs
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 620 2014-02-11 03:26:26 <lechuga_> im sure most devs rely on this pretty heavily: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list
 621 2014-02-11 03:26:32 <lechuga_> unsure if u want to call that docs or not
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 632 2014-02-11 03:32:42 <petertodd> ;;cjs
 633 2014-02-11 03:32:43 <gribble> Coinjoin Status: current session is open for 12 more minutes. There are currently something like 2 transactions in the pot. The most popular output value is 0.1. To participate, visit https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/ or http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ .
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 648 2014-02-11 03:41:30 <Hrumph> hi once again i'm not a devel....i read somewhere that you can uniquely identify a transaction by looking at ouputs or something (whatever that means)......would it be reasonable to create a hash of that data that could be used to 99% identify a transaction?
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 650 2014-02-11 03:42:17 <Hrumph> that way when you want to match transactions you could first examine the hash
 651 2014-02-11 03:42:25 <Hrumph> just like a with comparing files
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 657 2014-02-11 03:47:27 <maaku> Hrumph: you mean like this : https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/1173eef630783a822d9a709cfbc22ba91880231e#diff-9c8594b107c5d10b42944ad46a2f1a76R82
 658 2014-02-11 03:47:45 <gotnate> Hrumph: also a non dev here: the way i read it, the txnid is also generated from other operations on the state machine, which have an impact on the outputs. so in theory you could generate a transaction with different sets of ops but with the same inputs and get the same txnid
 659 2014-02-11 03:48:08 <gotnate> i need to look into how the txnid is generated rather than speculate though
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 661 2014-02-11 03:50:17 <Hrumph> maaku: does this patch have anything to do with what mtgox is requesting?
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 705 2014-02-11 04:34:42 <lechuga_> is it possible attackers didnt actually mutate the txns
 706 2014-02-11 04:34:47 <lechuga_> but miners wanted more entropy
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 708 2014-02-11 04:35:42 <gotnate> that's interesting speculation
 709 2014-02-11 04:35:46 <lianj> lechuga_: not really
 710 2014-02-11 04:35:53 <Luke-Jr> nonsensical speculation
 711 2014-02-11 04:36:03 <Luke-Jr> probably the slowest source of entropy miners have lol
 712 2014-02-11 04:36:09 <gotnate> i would expect a new block to be found before more entropy is needed though
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 714 2014-02-11 04:37:23 <lianj> the ones you can see on the blockchain right now all use OP_PUSHDATA2 instead of OP_PUSHDATA1. so it was mutated with intend.
 715 2014-02-11 04:37:47 <gmaxwell> gotnate: no, you should expect the universe to end before miners need more entropy before they can get from the coinbase.
 716 2014-02-11 04:37:51 <gotnate> lianj: can you link me to an example?
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 721 2014-02-11 04:38:27 <gotnate> gmaxwell: fair enough.
 722 2014-02-11 04:39:10 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I wonder if it wouldn't help some folks if you'd just do a minor patch to block OP_PUSHDATA other than 1 in IsStandard.
 723 2014-02-11 04:40:25 <lianj> gotnate: http://webbtc.com/tx/24ca2b7336fabba4de378a85d67af45de3efb20beb24820bd2c4f93b89ab9c5b.json
 724 2014-02-11 04:40:35 <gotnate> lianj: thanks
 725 2014-02-11 04:40:43 <lechuga_> seems like a nice targetted/harmless fix
 726 2014-02-11 04:40:56 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't call IsStandard, so no :p
 727 2014-02-11 04:41:02 <embm> so much schoolwork, that by the end of the day when I want to develop stuff for fun, I don't have the energy
 728 2014-02-11 04:42:11 <lianj> gotnate: more, http://webbtc.com/tx/832e76aa3c3283a0d61eb75986e66c1907992599ba8aadaba86c507449d2a4e1
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 730 2014-02-11 04:42:34 <lechuga_> yeah i guess it actually doesnt give u much entropy at all really
 731 2014-02-11 04:42:49 <lianj> those don't have evil origins necessarily, some miner(s) started to mutate other users txs just for fun
 732 2014-02-11 04:43:05 <lechuga_> for fun?
 733 2014-02-11 04:43:14 <gotnate> hmmm... how do you tell that it used OP_PUSHDATA2 here?
 734 2014-02-11 04:43:30 <gotnate> or is there a document i can read to understand it myself?
 735 2014-02-11 04:43:54 <gotnate> oh found the run script button
 736 2014-02-11 04:43:55 <gotnate> nm
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 738 2014-02-11 04:44:22 <lianj> but the run script debug output doesn't show you which pushdata ;)
 739 2014-02-11 04:44:39 <lechuga_> the 77 opcode in the front does
 740 2014-02-11 04:45:04 <lianj> right, but thats just serialization specific to the library thats used on that site
 741 2014-02-11 04:45:22 <lianj> there other way is to look at the binary itself
 742 2014-02-11 04:45:25 <lianj> but yea…
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 746 2014-02-11 04:46:57 <lechuga_> i thought it was confirmed the attack was due to the DER format
 747 2014-02-11 04:47:14 <lianj> someone should make stats how many OP_PUSHDATA2's in inputs where spotted some weeks ago and since 48 hours
 748 2014-02-11 04:47:14 <petertodd> lechuga_: there's *lots* of sources of malleability that can be exploited
 749 2014-02-11 04:47:30 <lechuga_> petertodd: yeah i read sipas bip proposal
 750 2014-02-11 04:47:51 <lechuga_> has anyone scanned the blockchain using sipa's heuristics
 751 2014-02-11 04:48:04 <lechuga_> to figure out roguh inceidence #
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 753 2014-02-11 04:48:11 <lechuga_> and period of high volume
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 756 2014-02-11 04:48:40 <petertodd> lechuga_: you'd get false positives there from implementations that produced "non-canonical" outputs
 757 2014-02-11 04:48:59 <lechuga_> theyd honestly likely be noise id think
 758 2014-02-11 04:49:20 <lechuga_> doesnt everyone use openssl
 759 2014-02-11 04:49:32 <petertodd> not at all
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 761 2014-02-11 04:49:50 <lechuga_> whos going to handroll ecdsa
 762 2014-02-11 04:50:06 <petertodd> javascript
 763 2014-02-11 04:50:10 <lianj> ^
 764 2014-02-11 04:50:16 <lechuga_> those clever bastards
 765 2014-02-11 04:50:28 <petertodd> embedded things (trezor)
 766 2014-02-11 04:50:33 <lianj> move your mouse in circles for best entropy
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 770 2014-02-11 04:52:04 <lechuga_> trezor doesn tuse openssl?
 771 2014-02-11 04:52:10 <lechuga_> is it just too big or what
 772 2014-02-11 04:52:21 <lechuga_> or i guess it has no OS
 773 2014-02-11 04:52:22 <lechuga_> nm
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 777 2014-02-11 04:54:38 <lechuga_> scanning and counting would at least give us the change in frequency / magnitude
 778 2014-02-11 04:54:51 <lechuga_> id assume all the custom impls have roiughly the same txn rate baseline
 779 2014-02-11 04:55:11 <lechuga_> and theyre adopting isnt growing that rapidly
 780 2014-02-11 04:55:13 <lechuga_> their
 781 2014-02-11 04:55:16 <lechuga_> adoption*
 782 2014-02-11 04:55:46 <lechuga_> i may as well do it
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 792 2014-02-11 04:59:44 <lianj> a sort look at least says its not only a single miner nor relay ip
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 795 2014-02-11 05:00:29 <lechuga_> true
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 797 2014-02-11 05:01:11 <lechuga_> how probable do u think it is that a miner was an attacker
 798 2014-02-11 05:01:32 <gotnate> i think it's pretty improbable
 799 2014-02-11 05:01:37 <lechuga_> seems like a waste of time
 800 2014-02-11 05:02:00 <lechuga_> if you're big enough to operate a mining op
 801 2014-02-11 05:02:57 <lechuga_> unless u werent trying to make money off gox but make money off mkt reaction
 802 2014-02-11 05:03:01 * lechuga_ puts on tinfoil hat
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 805 2014-02-11 05:03:47 <lechuga_> would just seem counterproductive to your interests
 806 2014-02-11 05:04:04 <lechuga_> unless its a rogue employee like when ghash did its doublespends
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 815 2014-02-11 05:07:06 <lianj> what attack are you even talking about? gox'd?
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 857 2014-02-11 05:45:10 <volante> is it normal that a randomly generated private key will often start with K?  and J comes up a lot and occasionally a H, but nothing else?
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 860 2014-02-11 05:47:42 <lianj> volante: thats just the base58 encoding. so yes
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 862 2014-02-11 05:48:58 <volante> oh good.  just making sure the nsa hasn't bugged my rng :p
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 864 2014-02-11 05:49:55 <lechuga_> volante: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_import_format
 865 2014-02-11 05:51:26 <volante> i see, so it's probably the 0x80 byte that skews the first base58 character
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 870 2014-02-11 05:54:10 <dkog> volante: those are "compressed" keys btw.  "uncompressed" generally start with "5".  the difference is not important, but just fyi.
 871 2014-02-11 05:54:41 <dkog> well, some clients (mostly older) may not understand the compressed format, but it's the recommended format.
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 873 2014-02-11 05:55:46 <lianj> "compressed address" keys
 874 2014-02-11 05:55:56 <volante> i'm using the format produced by vanitygen which starts with a 5
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 876 2014-02-11 05:56:16 <jcorgan> vanitygen only produces uncompressed pubkeys
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 882 2014-02-11 06:06:28 <dkog> lianj: are you saying that "compressed private key" is not proper terminology?
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 889 2014-02-11 06:14:11 <jcorgan> when there are two possible resulting addresses from privkey -> pubkey -> address, depending on whether the pubkey is stored in compressed or uncompressed format before hashing to an address
 890 2014-02-11 06:14:43 <jcorgan> the private key can be stored in as a wallet import format in two different ways to indicate whether a compressed or uncompressed pubkey should be generated from it
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 892 2014-02-11 06:15:05 <jcorgan> vanitygen only produces uncompressed pubkeys and generates wallet import format private keys indicating that
 893 2014-02-11 06:15:21 <jcorgan> remote the 'when' from my first statement
 894 2014-02-11 06:15:30 <jcorgan> remove
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 897 2014-02-11 06:15:55 <jcorgan> (this is what i get for typing without looking)
 898 2014-02-11 06:16:25 <mjb504> Hi all. A friend is receiving 0.00000001 BTC to his wallet at blockchain.  Is this anything to worry about?
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 908 2014-02-11 06:25:58 <volante> are there any wallets implementing BIP32 yet?  i mean not just generating a wallet, but actually viewing and sending transactions, like electrum
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 910 2014-02-11 06:26:27 <jcorgan> none that i am aware of.  Electrum has the code written inside it already, but not turned on.
 911 2014-02-11 06:27:25 <jcorgan> the BIP lists a number of implementations in different languages, but i think they are all pieces that would be used by wallet software for implementing BIP32, but not wallet software themselves
 912 2014-02-11 06:27:26 <volante> the BIP says "Status: Accepted".  does that mean it's finalised or still being developed?
 913 2014-02-11 06:27:35 <jcorgan> bip32?
 914 2014-02-11 06:27:44 <volante> yeah
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 917 2014-02-11 06:29:02 <jcorgan> hmm, well accepted, perhaps, but it has just undergone an important rewrite (changes terminology, not the actual key generation), which hasn't been merged in
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 920 2014-02-11 06:29:36 <jcorgan> i don't expect there to be any further changes in the actual key generation or serialization
 921 2014-02-11 06:29:43 <jcorgan> but the terminology might change still
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1003 2014-02-11 07:59:21 <phillipsjk> I don't suppose anybody up at this hour has experience compiling Bitcoin on FreeBSD
1004 2014-02-11 08:00:30 <Apocalyptic> heh, in fact I do
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1006 2014-02-11 08:00:55 <phillipsjk>  ./autogen.sh complains: Can't exec "aclocal": No such file or directory
1007 2014-02-11 08:01:03 <Apocalyptic> i used the ports on FreeBSD 8.1, without miniupnp, worked like a charm
1008 2014-02-11 08:01:05 <wumpus> that one is easy: get aclocal
1009 2014-02-11 08:01:15 <wumpus> usually part of an 'autotools' or 'autoconf' package
1010 2014-02-11 08:01:19 <Apocalyptic> ^
1011 2014-02-11 08:01:43 <phillipsjk> So I find it at /usr/local/share/aclocal, and add it to the path.
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1014 2014-02-11 08:02:08 <phillipsjk> turns out that is a directory, not a binary.
1015 2014-02-11 08:02:41 <Apocalyptic> i expect a binary to be in something like /usr/local/bin
1016 2014-02-11 08:02:50 <Apocalyptic> share looks more like a doc folder
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1019 2014-02-11 08:04:10 <phillipsjk> I installed "autoconf" which pulled in  m4: 1.4.17,1,  autoconf-wrapper: 20131203, autoconf: 2.69
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1021 2014-02-11 08:04:29 <phillipsjk> the share folder was full of m4 files
1022 2014-02-11 08:04:53 <phillipsjk> Do you have to be root to compile?
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1024 2014-02-11 08:06:18 <phillipsjk> hmm, there is a separate autotools-20130627 package; I'll try installing that.
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1027 2014-02-11 08:06:54 * uiop loves "yum provides '*bin/foo'"
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1030 2014-02-11 08:08:15 <phillipsjk> No new is good news so far..
1031 2014-02-11 08:08:47 <phillipsjk> looks like it worked.
1032 2014-02-11 08:09:27 <phillipsjk> It did not even complain about libboost missing. (Maybe it is in the base install)
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1043 2014-02-11 08:12:17 <phillipsjk> Oh, it complained in the ./configure step.
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1051 2014-02-11 08:16:37 * phillipsjk found the boost package (no lib in name))
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1056 2014-02-11 08:21:32 <fanquake> ;;blocks
1057 2014-02-11 08:21:33 <gribble> 285243
1058 2014-02-11 08:23:01 <phillipsjk> configure: error: pkg-config not found. <-- nice when the error is almost plain English :)
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1064 2014-02-11 08:29:00 <phillipsjk> is libcfg-0.6.2_2 waht I want? (not to be confused with libconfig-1.4.9)
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1067 2014-02-11 08:31:31 <phillipsjk> "pkgconf is a program which helps to configure compiler and linker flags for
1068 2014-02-11 08:31:31 <phillipsjk> development frameworks. It is similar to pkg-config, but was written from scratch in Summer of 2011 to replace pkg-config, which now needs itself to build itself." -- a third package looks even more promising
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1074 2014-02-11 08:42:42 <maaku> ;;google xkcd 927
1075 2014-02-11 08:42:42 <gribble> xkcd: Standards: <https://xkcd.com/927/>; xkcd sucks: Comic 927: The Alternative Title Was "Things Randy ...: <http://xkcdsucks.blogspot.com/2011/07/comic-927-alternative-title-was-things.html>; 927: Standards - explain xkcd: <http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/927:_Standards>
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1078 2014-02-11 08:43:23 <maaku> phillipsjk: you want pkg-config
1079 2014-02-11 08:44:13 <phillipsjk> found a doc bug: --without-miniupnpc in the build instructions is listed as --with-miniupnpc
1080 2014-02-11 08:45:10 <maaku> phillipsjk: do a pull request
1081 2014-02-11 08:45:18 <phillipsjk> pkgconf seemed to work.
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1083 2014-02-11 08:48:06 <wumpus> phillipsjk: is that a doc bug? both --with- and --without- variants are valid but do the opposite
1084 2014-02-11 08:48:17 <phillipsjk> spoke too soon? make: don't know how to make am--refresh. Stop
1085 2014-02-11 08:48:31 <wumpus> providing neither of them uses the default
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1087 2014-02-11 08:48:43 <wumpus> (which may depend on your system)
1088 2014-02-11 08:50:55 <phillipsjk> No, it is an error. There are two separate options for enabling UPNP: disabled by default and enabled by default.
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1097 2014-02-11 08:59:33 <wumpus> huh... okay
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1102 2014-02-11 09:10:55 <phillipsjk> maaku, pkgconf is supposed to be compatible with pkg-config. If Bitcoin manages to break it, the maintainer probably wants to know.
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1223 2014-02-11 11:03:03 <jeremias> Anybody knows what error message " Transaction commit failed" during sendmany means?
1224 2014-02-11 11:03:58 <jeremias> and if a transaction fails with that error msg, can I be 100% sure that the transaction won't relay?
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1252 2014-02-11 11:13:20 <wumpus> jeremias: it usually means that the mempool didn't accept it, but you can check debug.log if there's more info there
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1259 2014-02-11 11:16:10 <jeremias> wumpus: so the transaction got created, but I guess it is not broadcasted?
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1261 2014-02-11 11:18:20 <wumpus> indeed, the likely reason it could not be broadcasted because it conflicts with a transaction currently in the mempool
1262 2014-02-11 11:18:56 <jeremias> hmm, ok
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1368 2014-02-11 11:56:51 <chichov> does the transaction malleability problem also refer to "SIGHASH_ALL"?
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1416 2014-02-11 12:22:26 <Mallstromm> hi
1417 2014-02-11 12:22:29 <Mallstromm> so... What's going on with all those mutated transactions?? My QT is flooded by unconfirmed transactions!!!
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1421 2014-02-11 12:24:20 <wumpus> Mallstromm: some nodes are mutating transactions on the network on purpose (making use of the mallability); this causes a visual annoyance, but doesn't affect your balance
1422 2014-02-11 12:25:10 <Mallstromm> can't we know who is running those nodes?
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1424 2014-02-11 12:25:24 <wumpus> the next release will contain a (hopefully automatic) way to clean up that clutter
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1426 2014-02-11 12:26:20 <wumpus> well I suppose it would be possible to find out, but as this is something that everyone can do, it makes little sense to start a witchhunt
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1451 2014-02-11 12:39:51 <flound1129> does anyone have php code that actually works for sendmany?
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1453 2014-02-11 12:40:07 <flound1129> I've spent hours trying to get bitcoin.inc to do it
1454 2014-02-11 12:40:22 <flound1129> for some reason it keeps stripping the amounts
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1506 2014-02-11 13:05:29 <davout> flound1129: show an example of what you're doing
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1522 2014-02-11 13:28:28 <flound1129> jesus
1523 2014-02-11 13:28:32 <flound1129> this shit is so broken
1524 2014-02-11 13:28:36 <flound1129> how do people develop in php
1525 2014-02-11 13:28:37 <flound1129> it's awful
1526 2014-02-11 13:28:48 <flound1129> nothing fucking works
1527 2014-02-11 13:28:51 <davout> in lots of pain
1528 2014-02-11 13:29:27 <flound1129> anyway here's what I'm doing:
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1530 2014-02-11 13:30:03 <Apocalyptic> <flound1129> how do people develop in php // serious people don't
1531 2014-02-11 13:31:22 <flound1129> http://pastebin.com/cYkvqGrS
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1538 2014-02-11 13:38:28 <davout> flound1129: i don't really know what's wrong with your implementation, the default account seems wrong, it's usually the empty string
1539 2014-02-11 13:39:13 <orweinberger> flound1129, tell that to Mark Karpeles.
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1541 2014-02-11 13:39:40 <davout> flound1129: i'll give you a working example, the command though
1542 2014-02-11 13:39:47 <flound1129> davout: it won't accept the empty string
1543 2014-02-11 13:40:00 <flound1129> the client throws an error
1544 2014-02-11 13:40:02 <davout> bitcoind.
1545 2014-02-11 13:40:02 <davout> ?
1546 2014-02-11 13:40:10 <flound1129> bitcoind accepts it fine
1547 2014-02-11 13:40:13 <flound1129> the php client doesn't
1548 2014-02-11 13:40:19 <flound1129> like I said, this is all shit
1549 2014-02-11 13:40:36 <flound1129> but anyway, using an account name should work
1550 2014-02-11 13:40:42 <davout> it works with the empty string on CLI but not in PHP ?
1551 2014-02-11 13:40:45 <flound1129> yes
1552 2014-02-11 13:40:48 <davout> what's the error message?
1553 2014-02-11 13:40:55 <flound1129> well
1554 2014-02-11 13:41:04 <flound1129> if I use $bcc->sendmany, it just throws an error saying account can't be empty
1555 2014-02-11 13:41:09 <davout> if you already have a working command i can't give you much more
1556 2014-02-11 13:41:15 <flound1129> I've tried various shit like setting it to \"\", etc.
1557 2014-02-11 13:41:19 <flound1129> still doesn't work
1558 2014-02-11 13:41:22 <orweinberger> flound1129, <fromaccount> {address:amount,...} [minconf=1] [comment]
1559 2014-02-11 13:41:28 <davout> tried "*" ?
1560 2014-02-11 13:41:34 <orweinberger> You're sending an array, you should be using an object.. no?
1561 2014-02-11 13:41:53 <davout> orweinberger: params should be an array
1562 2014-02-11 13:42:09 <davout> the address/amount hash looks correct
1563 2014-02-11 13:42:09 <flound1129> everything is correct, except that for some reason the amounts are getting stripped when the command is sent to bitcoind
1564 2014-02-11 13:42:18 <flound1129> they're getting set to ""
1565 2014-02-11 13:42:38 <davout> that would be an issue with your JSON wrapper
1566 2014-02-11 13:43:10 <flound1129> and I get an error {"result":null,"error":{"code":-1,"message":"value is type str, expected real"},"id":null}
1567 2014-02-11 13:43:22 <davout> which makes sense
1568 2014-02-11 13:43:38 <davout> your JSON lib looks like it's the culprit here
1569 2014-02-11 13:43:43 <flound1129> right, which is why I was asking if anyone had working code for this php lib
1570 2014-02-11 13:43:43 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1571 2014-02-11 13:43:53 <flound1129> it's the mike gogluski php-bitcoin library
1572 2014-02-11 13:43:55 saracen has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1573 2014-02-11 13:43:59 mattco has joined
1574 2014-02-11 13:44:08 <davout> i missed that part, sorry i can't help you more
1575 2014-02-11 13:44:09 <flound1129> https://github.com/mikegogulski/bitcoin-php
1576 2014-02-11 13:44:23 <davout> tweet him something
1577 2014-02-11 13:44:28 <flound1129> he appears to be MIA
1578 2014-02-11 13:44:36 rdymac has joined
1579 2014-02-11 13:44:42 <flound1129> it looks like someone forked his code, but there are 10,000 new undocumented dependencies
1580 2014-02-11 13:44:57 <flound1129> graze/guzzle and all this stuff
1581 2014-02-11 13:45:01 <flound1129> that's apparently abandonware as well
1582 2014-02-11 13:45:16 <davout> PHP is abandonware
1583 2014-02-11 13:45:36 <flound1129> heh
1584 2014-02-11 13:45:59 <flound1129> alrighty I think I'm done with this for tonight
1585 2014-02-11 13:46:02 <davout> it gets fucked up before it even hits bitcoind
1586 2014-02-11 13:46:07 <davout> well, good night then :-)
1587 2014-02-11 13:46:08 <flound1129> yeah
1588 2014-02-11 13:46:16 <flound1129> I need to find this guy and get him to give me my 15 hours back
1589 2014-02-11 13:46:21 <flound1129> later
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1616 2014-02-11 14:17:17 deego` is now known as deego
1617 2014-02-11 14:17:32 <Joric> so what, mark refuses to release funds until you fix a bitcoin protocol?
1618 2014-02-11 14:17:37 <Joric> fix it please!
1619 2014-02-11 14:19:25 <dexX7> even if there would be a new client-release, would that even help, if gox uses a highly customized self-created version?
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1622 2014-02-11 14:20:15 <Imbue> lol
1623 2014-02-11 14:20:19 <Imbue> #bitcoin-ransom
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1627 2014-02-11 14:23:17 <wumpus> no, he doesn't require a change to the bitcoin protocol
1628 2014-02-11 14:23:30 <sturles> I have been waiting six hours for a withdrawal from Bitstamp.  Bitcointalk is full of complaints about withdrawals not arriving from BTC-E and Bitstamp.  Related to MtGox's problem, or just a random coincidence?
1629 2014-02-11 14:23:58 <Imbue> sturles: it's likely just that all systems are facing strain right now
1630 2014-02-11 14:24:10 <Apocalyptic> hum, BTC-E affected too ?
1631 2014-02-11 14:24:16 <jaakkos> i sure hope bitstamp is not having malleability issues
1632 2014-02-11 14:24:48 zcopley has joined
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1634 2014-02-11 14:25:34 <adam3us> re the tx-ids hashed at the leaves of the merkle tree sorted? or is it arbitrary/order received from the tree builders perspective?
1635 2014-02-11 14:25:51 <epscy> stamp haven't released a statement like bc.i and coinbase did, so...
1636 2014-02-11 14:26:06 c0rw1n has joined
1637 2014-02-11 14:26:27 <adam3us> "form the bottom row of the tree with the ordered double-SHA-256 hashes of the byte streams of the transactions in the block" in the wiki protocol specification... but what order is that?
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1654 2014-02-11 14:39:31 <Joric> ...ordered a few double-SHA-256 hashes with a side of fries
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1667 2014-02-11 14:53:31 <jaakkos> meh, the malleability issue puts users danger if they use just bitcoin-qt and don't understand what's happening
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1671 2014-02-11 14:54:06 <jeremias> is there coming a config option that disallows bitcoind to use zero-confirmation outputs for transactions
1672 2014-02-11 14:54:08 yubrew has joined
1673 2014-02-11 14:54:29 <jeremias> that would be pretty desirable IMHO even if not talking about the malleability problem
1674 2014-02-11 14:54:40 <jaakkos> jeremias: i think outputs from txs that you didn't gen yourself can't be spent at 0 but your change outputs can
1675 2014-02-11 14:55:03 <helo> i guess if a user sends to themselves, and the transaction gets modified before being confirmed, but before that they spend their unconfirmed tx, things could get confusing
1676 2014-02-11 14:55:06 ahbritto_ has joined
1677 2014-02-11 14:55:10 <jaakkos> disallowing spending change is kind of nasty because if you need to make 2 transactions quickly, your're fsckd
1678 2014-02-11 14:55:13 <jeremias> jaakkos: yes they can't but change tx's can be sued
1679 2014-02-11 14:55:18 <jeremias> used
1680 2014-02-11 14:55:24 <jeremias> even with zero confirmation
1681 2014-02-11 14:55:37 <andytoshi> helo: i think the specific problem here is unconfirmed change being spent.
1682 2014-02-11 14:55:51 <jaakkos> should people just start scheduling a hard fork
1683 2014-02-11 14:55:51 <helo> ahh right
1684 2014-02-11 14:55:57 <jaakkos> how bad could it be :E
1685 2014-02-11 14:56:07 <jeremias> jaakkos: users should be able to choose between the two different risks
1686 2014-02-11 14:56:10 q2vJT3N2AOwIWy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1687 2014-02-11 14:56:16 <jeremias> eg. config option
1688 2014-02-11 14:56:16 <andytoshi> jaakkos: there is no need for a hard fork, -qt should stop spending unconfirmed change and that's 100% of the necessary fix
1689 2014-02-11 14:56:28 <jeremias> andytoshi: +1
1690 2014-02-11 14:56:29 <jaakkos> andytoshi: but to disallow malleability
1691 2014-02-11 14:56:43 <jeremias> the malleability itself isn't that huge problem
1692 2014-02-11 14:56:47 <helo> hard forks are really ugly...
1693 2014-02-11 14:56:47 <jaakkos> well
1694 2014-02-11 14:56:47 <wumpus> jeremias: yes, there is a patch coming for that
1695 2014-02-11 14:56:54 <andytoshi> jaakkos: no, there was no rush on that 2 years ago when this was noticed, and there is no rush on it now
1696 2014-02-11 14:56:56 <jeremias> wumpus: great, thx
1697 2014-02-11 14:56:57 <wumpus> jeremias: (to not use zero-conf change in transactions)
1698 2014-02-11 14:56:59 <jaakkos> obviously it was much more of a problem that was anticipated
1699 2014-02-11 14:57:11 <helo> if the consequences of malleability can be mitigated, that's probably better than a hard fork
1700 2014-02-11 14:57:16 <andytoshi> besides there are theoretical issues around actually eliminating malleability that are not yet resolved
1701 2014-02-11 14:57:25 <jaakkos> yeah surely it has been known for a long time but it looks like the implications were not taken seriously enough
1702 2014-02-11 14:57:50 <wumpus> jaakkos: they were, but it couldn't be changed too quickly
1703 2014-02-11 14:58:07 <wumpus> (for fear of breaking existing software)
1704 2014-02-11 14:58:20 volante has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1706 2014-02-11 14:58:59 <wumpus>  'rushed' solutions would be much worse than the problem
1707 2014-02-11 14:59:25 <BB-Martino> Guys... Another problem / quick question.
1708 2014-02-11 14:59:31 <BB-Martino> https://blockchain.info/tx/b78a1a34b9a1cf4d624f4cef874be28d022a0c5f75ae4081ca0c5955267d368e
1709 2014-02-11 14:59:42 <BB-Martino> btc@nl:~/tmp$ bit getrawtransaction b78a1a34b9a1cf4d624f4cef874be28d022a0c5f75ae4081ca0c5955267d368e
1710 2014-02-11 14:59:44 <BB-Martino> error: {"code":-5,"message":"No information available about transaction"}
1711 2014-02-11 14:59:45 <BB-Martino> btc@nl:~/tmp$
1712 2014-02-11 14:59:58 <jaakkos> how i feel about it is, if they were taken seriously enough, there would have been warnings. even the wiki page doesn't/didn't warn how serious the issue was.
1713 2014-02-11 15:00:02 <BB-Martino> How did bitcoind give me a TXID and then not know about it ?
1714 2014-02-11 15:00:05 titan has joined
1715 2014-02-11 15:00:12 <jaakkos> anyway arguing about what should have been done is useless :)
1716 2014-02-11 15:00:36 <jeremias> well, you can't see in the future
1717 2014-02-11 15:00:51 greensharpie has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1718 2014-02-11 15:00:57 <jeremias> I've had btc huge problems with these zero-conf change tx'se before
1719 2014-02-11 15:01:14 <jeremias> btc=btw
1720 2014-02-11 15:01:21 greensharpie has joined
1721 2014-02-11 15:01:46 <jeremias> BB-Martino: that is possible in some cases, I guess memory pool is full or something?
1722 2014-02-11 15:01:56 <jeremias> BB-Martino: I think I had a similar case in the past as well
1723 2014-02-11 15:01:59 <BB-Martino> It's the first time I see this.
1724 2014-02-11 15:02:10 <jeremias> I guess your mempool is full of invalid transactions
1725 2014-02-11 15:02:12 <BB-Martino> Before, the worst case was me doing a getrawtransaction, then using blockchain.info/pushtx
1726 2014-02-11 15:02:18 <BB-Martino> now i can't even do that
1727 2014-02-11 15:02:24 <BB-Martino> so bottom line, it'll turn up in time?
1728 2014-02-11 15:02:36 <jeremias> well, you probably have the same problem as mtgox
1729 2014-02-11 15:02:41 <andytoshi> BB-Martino: cool! i don't know that it'll turn up, it seems like nobody has seen it.. but give it a few minutes
1730 2014-02-11 15:02:44 skinnkavaj has joined
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1734 2014-02-11 15:02:54 <BB-Martino> jeremias: not gox, anyone.... malleability yes, we all have it.
1735 2014-02-11 15:02:57 <andytoshi> jeremias: why do you say that? what do you mean by it?
1736 2014-02-11 15:03:17 <jeremias> well, with the invalid transactions
1737 2014-02-11 15:03:18 c0rw1n has joined
1738 2014-02-11 15:03:26 <BB-Martino> andytoshi: it's been 3 hours. but yeah, nothing else to do than wait
1739 2014-02-11 15:03:28 <andytoshi> BB-Martino: how did you get that txid? doing sendtoaddress?
1740 2014-02-11 15:03:33 <BB-Martino> sendtomany
1741 2014-02-11 15:03:34 <BB-Martino> yes
1742 2014-02-11 15:03:34 <jaakkos> i wonder if bitcoin should have hashed txids without input script from the very beginning
1743 2014-02-11 15:03:42 <andytoshi> hmmm
1744 2014-02-11 15:03:45 <jaakkos> i understand that's exactly what gox is doing now
1745 2014-02-11 15:03:50 <jaakkos> from their statement
1746 2014-02-11 15:03:57 <BB-Martino> jeremias: have you checked your "" account ?
1747 2014-02-11 15:04:01 <andytoshi> BB-Martino: in ~/.bitcoin/debug.log (warning huge text file) do you see anything about it?
1748 2014-02-11 15:04:10 <BB-Martino> or does localbitcoins not use any accounts, only the default "" one ?
1749 2014-02-11 15:04:18 <BB-Martino> checking @ andy
1750 2014-02-11 15:04:39 <andytoshi> jaakkos: no, that would not work internally because the signatures have to be part of the tx
1751 2014-02-11 15:04:50 <BB-Martino> Relaying wtx b78a1a34b9a1cf4d624f4cef874be28d022a0c5f75ae4081ca0c5955267d368e
1752 2014-02-11 15:04:51 <BB-Martino> received getdata for: tx b78a1a34b9a1cf4d624f4cef874be28d022a0c5f75ae4081ca0c5955267d368e
1753 2014-02-11 15:04:54 <BB-Martino> Relaying wtx b78a1a34b9a1cf4d624f4cef874be28d022a0c5f75ae4081ca0c5955267d368e
1754 2014-02-11 15:04:57 <andytoshi> but probably the user-facing txids should've been different, yeah.
1755 2014-02-11 15:05:02 <BB-Martino> the last 6 lines is the 'relaying wtx'
1756 2014-02-11 15:05:09 <andytoshi> BB-Martino: o.O so it's in your wallet..
1757 2014-02-11 15:05:21 <BB-Martino> hm?
1758 2014-02-11 15:05:27 <andytoshi> wtx is "wallet transaction"
1759 2014-02-11 15:05:35 <andytoshi> so your node is aware of it
1760 2014-02-11 15:05:42 <BB-Martino> of course, it gave me the txid
1761 2014-02-11 15:05:49 <BB-Martino> the question is, why can't it give me the raw transaction
1762 2014-02-11 15:05:56 <BB-Martino> and why the network doesn't see it if it was relayed
1763 2014-02-11 15:07:13 <andytoshi> well, "of course" it can give you the raw transaction, since it's aware of it ;)
1764 2014-02-11 15:07:23 <andytoshi> one sec, i'll check the source and see what can cause the "no information" message
1765 2014-02-11 15:07:33 <orweinberger> Is anyone aware of any actions taken by other exhcanges with regards to mallability? Or is it just a coincidence that Bitstamp, Coinbase and BTC-e all have delays in withdrawals at the moment?
1766 2014-02-11 15:07:34 <BB-Martino> THAT'S JUST IT
1767 2014-02-11 15:07:41 <BB-Martino> it WON'T give me the raw transaction!!!
1768 2014-02-11 15:08:04 <BB-Martino> error: {"code":-5,"message":"No information available about transaction"}
1769 2014-02-11 15:08:14 Insti has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1770 2014-02-11 15:08:21 <BB-Martino> orweinberger: there's definitely something up with bitcoin.
1771 2014-02-11 15:08:37 <BB-Martino> so far, the 'only' problem was having a negative balance in my default account that grew and grew, but supposedly can be ignored
1772 2014-02-11 15:08:43 <BB-Martino> today I got maybe 6 withdrawal problem emails
1773 2014-02-11 15:09:07 <andytoshi> yeah, accounts don't matter
1774 2014-02-11 15:09:10 <BB-Martino> and now, i have a transaction that is in my walllet, yet it won't give me the raw version
1775 2014-02-11 15:09:21 Framedragger has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1776 2014-02-11 15:09:34 <orweinberger> jgarzik, gmaxwell anything you guys are aware of?
1777 2014-02-11 15:09:36 <andytoshi> yeah, this is a bug
1778 2014-02-11 15:09:38 HaltingState has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1779 2014-02-11 15:10:00 titan has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
1780 2014-02-11 15:10:17 <BB-Martino> I'd still like some feedback on this getrawtransaction problem
1781 2014-02-11 15:10:34 cagedwisdom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1782 2014-02-11 15:10:44 <BB-Martino> oh, missed andy's source code checking line. waiting then.
1783 2014-02-11 15:11:18 <andytoshi> np, in main.cpp:862 there is a function GetTransaction which is returning false but shouldn't be
1784 2014-02-11 15:11:27 Tray_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1785 2014-02-11 15:11:29 <andytoshi> you can see the various places that it looks for the tx
1786 2014-02-11 15:11:44 <BB-Martino> well, it doesn't look the same place as listtransactions
1787 2014-02-11 15:12:01 <andytoshi> it appears to be your wallet but not in your mempool, which shouldn't be able to happen
1788 2014-02-11 15:12:04 Tray_ has joined
1789 2014-02-11 15:12:12 <BB-Martino> great...
1790 2014-02-11 15:12:16 <andytoshi> yeah, listtransaction looks at the wallet, getrawtransaction looks in the mempool
1791 2014-02-11 15:12:49 <BB-Martino> would restarting bitcoind put the tx back from the wallet to mempool?
1792 2014-02-11 15:12:56 buggin_out1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1793 2014-02-11 15:13:06 <andytoshi> so i guess a quick fix that would give you the raw tx is to add a log near 'Relaying wtx ...' to also dump the raw tx
1794 2014-02-11 15:13:09 <andytoshi> yeah, that's a good bet
1795 2014-02-11 15:13:48 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1796 2014-02-11 15:14:04 Gabralkhan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1797 2014-02-11 15:15:24 oPen_syLar has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1798 2014-02-11 15:15:29 <helo> BB-Martino: the wallet is append-only, so the tx will stay there indefinitely without using a tool/procedure to remove it
1799 2014-02-11 15:15:39 Guyver2_ has joined
1800 2014-02-11 15:15:47 <BB-Martino> this is not the malleability thing, i actually want this tx to stay there
1801 2014-02-11 15:15:55 <BB-Martino> i know i can't do s*** about those
1802 2014-02-11 15:16:04 <BB-Martino> so i'm just gonna get used to seeing -1000 BTC in my "" account
1803 2014-02-11 15:16:12 <BB-Martino> (no comment)
1804 2014-02-11 15:16:37 <BB-Martino> restarting server now, will let you know if the getrawtransaction thing changes
1805 2014-02-11 15:17:39 Guyver2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1808 2014-02-11 15:18:41 Guest50231 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1809 2014-02-11 15:18:47 <andytoshi> gmaxwell apparently uses the accounts feature, i'm sure it'll get fixed for that reason..but i think the fix for this is for getrawtransaction to look in the wallet as well
1810 2014-02-11 15:19:20 <andytoshi> because what i think is that this tx has been invalidated (possibly by some malleability tricks), so it won't be accepted into your mempool
1811 2014-02-11 15:19:35 <andytoshi> what you need to do is respend the same inputs. but obviously you can't do that if getrawtransaction is not helping you
1812 2014-02-11 15:20:04 <andytoshi> so that's the bug. unfortunately i have to get going, hopefully somebody more familiar with this part of the code will happen by
1813 2014-02-11 15:20:12 <BB-Martino> if it was invalidated, wouldn't the other transaction land properly?
1814 2014-02-11 15:20:22 <BB-Martino> thanks for your help
1815 2014-02-11 15:20:31 <andytoshi> yeah, but on the off chance that it's not actually invalidated there is potential for an actual double-spend
1816 2014-02-11 15:20:42 <andytoshi> but i really doubt that's the case, nobody sees it even your own node..
1817 2014-02-11 15:20:52 <BB-Martino> fml
1818 2014-02-11 15:21:07 <BB-Martino> error: {"code":-5,"message":"No information available about transaction"}
1819 2014-02-11 15:21:10 <BB-Martino> yeah, restart didn't help
1820 2014-02-11 15:21:39 Tray_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1821 2014-02-11 15:21:57 <andytoshi> ok. very sorry that i can't help right now, good luck!
1822 2014-02-11 15:22:02 <BB-Martino> thanks...
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1836 2014-02-11 15:35:11 amantonop has joined
1837 2014-02-11 15:35:42 <amantonop> Andreas M. Antonopoulos here, from blockchain.
1838 2014-02-11 15:35:51 dangerm00se has joined
1839 2014-02-11 15:36:04 <amantonop> We are detecting bot activity attempting to exploit the TX-Malleability issue
1840 2014-02-11 15:36:21 hsmiths has joined
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1842 2014-02-11 15:37:10 <amantonop> I am acting as incident coordinator for blockchain.info and we require assistance from the core developers.
1843 2014-02-11 15:37:17 <petertodd> amantonop: howdy
1844 2014-02-11 15:37:32 <amantonop> Hi Peter
1845 2014-02-11 15:37:38 <petertodd> amantonop: bc.i lets users spend unconfirmed outputs?
1846 2014-02-11 15:37:56 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1847 2014-02-11 15:37:58 <amantonop> No the issue is not affecting customer wallets
1848 2014-02-11 15:38:04 <petertodd> amantonop: ah good
1849 2014-02-11 15:38:15 <petertodd> amantonop: what is the issue for you then?
1850 2014-02-11 15:38:19 Coincourse has joined
1851 2014-02-11 15:38:25 <amantonop> Can you contact me on skype so I can explain in less public forum?
1852 2014-02-11 15:38:37 <petertodd> amantonop: sure
1853 2014-02-11 15:38:37 <amantonop> skype:aantonop
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1857 2014-02-11 15:39:51 <BB-Martino> oh boy.
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1867 2014-02-11 15:43:43 <BB-Martino> Update: it seems the malleability attack worked, the original TXID never made it to the network, but another modified transaction did, so the guy got their coins
1868 2014-02-11 15:43:48 <BB-Martino> Still, this is pretty bad.
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1871 2014-02-11 15:44:28 <Luke-Jr> BB-Martino: bad in what sense?
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1876 2014-02-11 15:45:40 <ArthurB> hi all, I'm having trouble building bitcoin. it seems something is wrong with the $(abs_top_buildir) variable. it's empty and as result make is trying to create directory /src (I'm not root on this machine)
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1878 2014-02-11 15:45:53 <BB-Martino> Bad in the sense that you can't really trust TXIDs. For example if someone sends coins somewhere and it doesn't get credited, and he wanted to post a TXID to prove it's there, it'd be problematic.
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1881 2014-02-11 15:46:10 <BB-Martino> My "" account growing more and more negative by every hour is also bad.
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1887 2014-02-11 15:47:22 <Luke-Jr> BB-Martino: you're not supposed to "trust" txids.
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1890 2014-02-11 15:48:50 <Inception> Hi. Can anyone confirm there is a possible malled tx attack in progress?
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1893 2014-02-11 15:49:10 <Inception> we are getting this:  Error: The transaction was rejected! This might happen if some of the coins in your wallet were already spent, such as if you used a copy of wallet.dat and coins were spent in the copy but not marked as spent here.
1894 2014-02-11 15:49:18 <helo> no such thing afaik
1895 2014-02-11 15:49:31 <Inception> we are 100% sure the wallet has no other copy
1896 2014-02-11 15:49:38 <Inception> and we just ran the resync. the problem appeared again shortly
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1899 2014-02-11 15:50:06 <BB-Martino> Luke: it's not about trust, maybe I put it wrong. It makes debugging really hard.
1900 2014-02-11 15:50:08 <wumpus> Inception: see http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1xm49o/due_to_active_malleable_transaction_relayers_it/
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1903 2014-02-11 15:51:34 <dangerm00se> wumpus is that patch against the master branch ?
1904 2014-02-11 15:52:19 <wumpus> dangerm00se: I have no clue, it's not my post, I have my own pull here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3651    which is against master
1905 2014-02-11 15:52:41 <Inception> wumpus: really looks like thats the case, as we are operating an exchange aswell and this is happening to us
1906 2014-02-11 15:52:43 <wumpus> but it (tries to) address the same problem
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1910 2014-02-11 15:53:12 <dangerm00se> wumpus ack, thanks
1911 2014-02-11 15:53:54 <wumpus> the patch on reddit also patches getbalance though, I'm not sure why
1912 2014-02-11 15:54:31 <Inception> wumpus: safe to apply your patch to master?
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1917 2014-02-11 15:55:24 <wumpus> Inception: it shouldn't make things worse at least
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1919 2014-02-11 15:56:21 <wumpus> it changes coin selection to not regard 0-conf inputs if -nospendzeroconfchange, that's all
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1924 2014-02-11 15:59:23 <Inception> wumpus: any insight on how to merge the update?
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1939 2014-02-11 16:05:15 <kaptah> amantonop: can you comment on sharedcoin problems? :) http://api.sharedcoin.com/?version=3
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1943 2014-02-11 16:07:40 <dangerm00se> inception: i would guess git clone git://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin.git; cd bitcoin; git checkout -t origin/2014_02_spend_zeroconf_change_option
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1946 2014-02-11 16:08:22 <Swoxxx> Guys, I have multiple wallet.dat in a folder, for all of the currencies I have but cant know for sure which one is for which currency
1947 2014-02-11 16:08:34 <dangerm00se> then a diff src /path/to/bitcoin/src/ so you know what you are getting :)
1948 2014-02-11 16:08:35 <Swoxxx> is there an easy way to find out which wallet is for which currency?
1949 2014-02-11 16:09:05 <BB-Martino> will these zeroconf changes be implemented on the official download page?
1950 2014-02-11 16:09:21 <dangerm00se> wumpus: thanks, firing up vm to give it a go :)
1951 2014-02-11 16:09:26 <BB-Martino> i'd prefer not to start patching things, worried it may cause more problems than it would solve, I've always preferred to stick with the official release
1952 2014-02-11 16:09:36 <BB-Martino> but if it's not planned, i may have to :(
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1954 2014-02-11 16:10:24 <wumpus> BB-Martino: yes, eventually there will be an official release with a similar change, depending on which way is chosen
1955 2014-02-11 16:10:25 <dangerm00se> for an exchanging running a small hot wallet for outgoings, just getting it ready in case it's needed would seem sensible :P
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1958 2014-02-11 16:11:27 <BB-Martino> wumpus: are we talking about any day now, a week, weeks?
1959 2014-02-11 16:11:41 <wumpus> BB-Martino: I cannot make any commitment there
1960 2014-02-11 16:11:57 ahbritto has joined
1961 2014-02-11 16:12:07 <BB-Martino> I didn't ask for commitment, really.
1962 2014-02-11 16:12:19 nym has joined
1963 2014-02-11 16:12:21 <wumpus> we obviously prefer not to rush anything into a release
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1965 2014-02-11 16:12:31 <iwilcox> BB-Martino: If he gave a timescale that turned out wrong, that could be worse for you.
1966 2014-02-11 16:12:56 <BB-Martino> it's bad either ways. if he said 'probably a month' i'd go with the patch
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1969 2014-02-11 16:13:45 <Inception> well, we are going with the patch as we speak
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1973 2014-02-11 16:14:44 <BB-Martino> I just read that the balances turn out weird with the patch. They're already weird, my getbalance reports 8 BTC more than the summary of accounts. Any further complication is something that could really mess up my accounting.
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1975 2014-02-11 16:15:00 <BB-Martino> i'll probably just wait :(
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1978 2014-02-11 16:17:24 <iwilcox> BB-Martino: I think there are also patches for the balance issue, not that I've eyeballed code or could vouch for the authors
1979 2014-02-11 16:17:40 Tray_ has joined
1980 2014-02-11 16:18:13 <iwilcox> Not suggesting you use them, just mentioning what's out there.
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1983 2014-02-11 16:19:38 <BB-Martino> If I apply random patches on the net while the actual developers take their time to weigh pros and cons, and I lose bitcoins, I'm more to blame than if I just waited for the next release to come out and update.
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1987 2014-02-11 16:21:37 <helo> as long as you don't send anything, and have a backup, i think it is unlikely for something bad to happen
1988 2014-02-11 16:21:47 <BB-Martino> But I do send.
1989 2014-02-11 16:21:54 <BB-Martino> I have 40,000 users.
1990 2014-02-11 16:22:10 <BB-Martino> Shutting it down til the next release is not an option.
1991 2014-02-11 16:22:55 <skinnkavaj> BB-Martino: Btc-e have suspended withdrawals so I guess it's perfectly fine if you do as well.
1992 2014-02-11 16:22:59 <epscy> i think suspending btc withdrawals would be prudent
1993 2014-02-11 16:23:02 <helo> is that not preferable to applying unofficial patches?
1994 2014-02-11 16:23:09 <BB-Martino> they have ?
1995 2014-02-11 16:23:14 <epscy> it's what gox should have done like 2 weeks ago
1996 2014-02-11 16:23:17 <skinnkavaj> https://twitter.com/btcecom/status/433249934456807424
1997 2014-02-11 16:23:26 <BB-Martino> what about bitstamp?
1998 2014-02-11 16:23:57 <skinnkavaj> Bitstamp also reported having problems on reddit, but I have not seen anything offical about it.
1999 2014-02-11 16:24:02 <BB-Martino> yeah but gox had other problems too, with the coins returning code and the custom solutions. i'm simply sending tx's with bitcoind
2000 2014-02-11 16:24:54 <epscy> BB-Martino: i'm not a user of your site (BitBargain?), but I think most users would understand
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2002 2014-02-11 16:25:41 <BB-Martino> for a while, yes
2003 2014-02-11 16:25:45 <BB-Martino> but for weeks, i'm not so sure
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2005 2014-02-11 16:25:57 <epscy> BB-Martino: tx maleability has been highlighted since gox raised it in their press release, it's likely lots of people are now trying to exploit it against every bitcoin service
2006 2014-02-11 16:26:20 <BB-Martino> yes, i see that in my default balance.
2007 2014-02-11 16:26:21 <jgarzik> yep
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2009 2014-02-11 16:26:38 <BB-Martino>     "" : -21.08554493,
2010 2014-02-11 16:26:41 <BB-Martino> OH WOW!
2011 2014-02-11 16:26:48 <BB-Martino> it was only -7 yesterday
2012 2014-02-11 16:27:05 Seventoes has left ()
2013 2014-02-11 16:27:09 <BB-Martino> WAIT WHAT !@#?!@?#!?@#!?@#
2014 2014-02-11 16:27:14 <BB-Martino> btc@nl:~$ bit getbalance
2015 2014-02-11 16:27:15 <BB-Martino> 345.75519626
2016 2014-02-11 16:27:17 <BB-Martino> btc@nl:~$
2017 2014-02-11 16:27:23 <BB-Martino> it's supposed to be 176.33
2018 2014-02-11 16:27:27 <BB-Martino> my accounting is completely screwed.
2019 2014-02-11 16:27:29 <BB-Martino> GREAT.
2020 2014-02-11 16:27:35 <Apocalyptic> BB-Martino, rejoice
2021 2014-02-11 16:27:43 <Apocalyptic> you have like 170 extra coins :)
2022 2014-02-11 16:27:49 <BB-Martino> i'm pretty sure i don't.
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2024 2014-02-11 16:28:37 <BB-Martino> What is going on, seriously
2025 2014-02-11 16:28:57 <epscy> BB-Martino: suspend btc withdrawals until you figure it out
2026 2014-02-11 16:29:01 <BB-Martino> yesterday, the consensus was that I should ignore the numbers in the accounting and focus on what getbalance tells me
2027 2014-02-11 16:29:09 <BB-Martino> because getbalance reports the right number
2028 2014-02-11 16:29:14 <Apocalyptic> it does
2029 2014-02-11 16:29:18 <BB-Martino> if that is true, someone did send 170 btc
2030 2014-02-11 16:29:21 <BB-Martino> but that's kinda doubtful
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2037 2014-02-11 16:31:56 <wumpus> BB-Martino: what if you do getbalance * 1, to only get confirmed balance?
2038 2014-02-11 16:32:01 <orweinberger> Guys I can't figure out if BB-Martino's issue is something I should worry about.
2039 2014-02-11 16:32:24 <BB-Martino> which one?
2040 2014-02-11 16:32:30 <Inception> same here but we have applied the wumpus patch and seems to be running OK on an exchange
2041 2014-02-11 16:32:31 <BB-Martino> there's like 3. wumpus: checking
2042 2014-02-11 16:32:39 <epscy> orweinberger: probably not, but he clearly needs to fix his accounting
2043 2014-02-11 16:32:53 <BB-Martino> oh, wumpus: i haven't applied the patchj
2044 2014-02-11 16:33:09 <Inception> BB-Martino: what patch did you apply? or why is your balances off?
2045 2014-02-11 16:33:23 <BB-Martino> i haven't applied any patches.
2046 2014-02-11 16:33:24 <wumpus> BB-Martino: I'm not saying anything about a patch, just to issue the RPC command getbalance * 1 to get the balance of inputs with 1 confirmation
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2048 2014-02-11 16:33:34 <BB-Martino> oh right, i get the 'normal' balance
2049 2014-02-11 16:33:36 <orweinberger> epscy, I understand however many people are now reporting BTC withdrawal issues with Bitstamp/BTC-e and Coinbase.. so I'm quite worried.
2050 2014-02-11 16:33:37 <BB-Martino> when i require 1 confirm
2051 2014-02-11 16:34:00 <wumpus> BB-Martino: the issue is with unconfirmed transactions and unconfirmed change
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2059 2014-02-11 16:36:49 <helo> things may get weird if there is a reorg :/
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2064 2014-02-11 16:40:03 <Cocodude> Yeah, that's not good
2065 2014-02-11 16:40:36 <Inception> reorg?
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2069 2014-02-11 16:43:52 <Apocalyptic> % bitcoind getbalance *
2070 2014-02-11 16:43:52 <Apocalyptic> error: Error parsing JSON:altcoin
2071 2014-02-11 16:44:00 <Apocalyptic> funny error
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2091 2014-02-11 16:58:26 <jeremias> is there going to be updated binary?
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2094 2014-02-11 16:58:54 <Apocalyptic> updated to what ?
2095 2014-02-11 16:59:26 <upb> updated to mtgoxcoin!
2096 2014-02-11 17:00:05 <helo> BB-Martino: you may want to require more than one confirm...
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2099 2014-02-11 17:00:47 <BB-Martino> i require 3 confirms, i was just showing the output of getbalance
2100 2014-02-11 17:00:52 <jeremias> Apocalyptic: the option to disable the use of 0-conf change addresses
2101 2014-02-11 17:01:09 <Majjiok> I need help!! How I can clean all the unconfirmed transactions that are appearing twice since yesterday?
2102 2014-02-11 17:01:17 drayah__ has joined
2103 2014-02-11 17:01:24 <jaakkos> Majjiok: salvagewallet
2104 2014-02-11 17:01:32 <Majjiok> I have my client flooded by transactions that have been broadcasted twice with different txids!!!
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2106 2014-02-11 17:01:39 <helo> wouldn't it need to disable the use of <6-conf change addresses?
2107 2014-02-11 17:01:40 <BB-Martino> yeah, we all have it
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2109 2014-02-11 17:01:44 <jeremias> helo: no
2110 2014-02-11 17:02:08 <helo> jeremias: a reorg can make the inputs invalid with malleability though...
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2112 2014-02-11 17:02:31 <Majjiok> BB-Martino: who is doing such an annoying thing? There's really no gain for him but its a pain in the ass for everybody!!
2113 2014-02-11 17:02:36 <jeremias> helo: the fix it to prevent generating more illegal tx's while still allowing withdrawals
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2115 2014-02-11 17:03:00 <BB-Martino> Majjiok: they do it because they can. I wouldn't worry about the why, for now i just need a solution.
2116 2014-02-11 17:03:10 <jeremias> all web wallets are having problems
2117 2014-02-11 17:03:15 <thermoman> jeremias: how is the official bitcoind generating illegal tx's?
2118 2014-02-11 17:03:16 <Majjiok> What is salvagewallet?
2119 2014-02-11 17:03:17 <helo> jeremias: a reorg can make legal tx's illegal, so you'd want to wait enough confirmations to ensure a reorg doesn't do that
2120 2014-02-11 17:03:38 <wumpus> Majjiok: griefing is a well-known phenomenon on the internet, also anything that can be attacked will be attacked
2121 2014-02-11 17:03:46 <jeremias> thermoman: read the backlog, I think it is quite obvious
2122 2014-02-11 17:03:48 <dangerm00se> jeremias: erm well it won't stop someone screwing with hashes. it will just stop your wallet get messed up trying to spend unconfirmed change.
2123 2014-02-11 17:03:48 <helo> thermoman: referring to inputs that never confirm
2124 2014-02-11 17:04:12 <Majjiok> well I have an issue, it might not be "major" but its very annoying, my client is flooded by unconfirmed transactions
2125 2014-02-11 17:04:13 <jeremias> dangerm00se: of course
2126 2014-02-11 17:04:22 * dangerm00se nods
2127 2014-02-11 17:04:26 <jeremias> little fix is better than no fix at all
2128 2014-02-11 17:04:33 drayah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2129 2014-02-11 17:05:02 <jeremias> currently the options for web wallet operators is either a) stop withdrawals or b) mess the wallet up more or c) compile your own binary
2130 2014-02-11 17:05:08 gavinandresen has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2131 2014-02-11 17:05:17 <Majjiok> what do the devs say? Is there a fix to this? Will a new QT/bitcoind be released any time soon?
2132 2014-02-11 17:05:24 foamy has quit (Disconnected by services)
2133 2014-02-11 17:05:24 <BB-Martino> [17:04] <jeremias> currently the options for web wallet operators is either a) stop withdrawals or b) mess the wallet up more or c) compile your own binary
2134 2014-02-11 17:05:24 VinceSamios has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2135 2014-02-11 17:05:29 <BB-Martino> yep, trying to make up my mind as well
2136 2014-02-11 17:05:47 <BB-Martino> i wouldn't do #2
2137 2014-02-11 17:05:47 coiners has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2138 2014-02-11 17:05:53 <helo> Majjiok: they're working on it. i'd assume a new release will happen soonish.
2139 2014-02-11 17:06:00 <sneak> i am relatively confident that there will be some action to mitigate this noise/nuisance relatively soon, if you're not in a rush i would just sit tight
2140 2014-02-11 17:06:09 <denisx> I hope it will be a 0.8.7
2141 2014-02-11 17:06:10 drayah__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2142 2014-02-11 17:06:11 <jaakkos> jeremias: stop withdrawals as long as there is unconfirmed balance?
2143 2014-02-11 17:06:13 non2_ has joined
2144 2014-02-11 17:06:17 <helo> denisx: i'm sure it will
2145 2014-02-11 17:06:20 <BB-Martino> there's always unconfirmed balance, kinda
2146 2014-02-11 17:06:35 <BB-Martino> especially with those duplicates stuck with 0confirm
2147 2014-02-11 17:06:42 <denisx> how can I see if I have the problem?
2148 2014-02-11 17:06:46 piuk has joined
2149 2014-02-11 17:06:51 <jaakkos> BB-Martino: salvagewallet would get rid of those
2150 2014-02-11 17:06:58 <jaakkos> but i think you lose accounts
2151 2014-02-11 17:06:59 <BB-Martino> and could cause more problems, invalidating inputs
2152 2014-02-11 17:07:00 <Majjiok> helo: great, but there's no way to get rid from the UI of the unconfirmed transactions? They pile up on top and they are very annoying
2153 2014-02-11 17:07:09 <BB-Martino> yeah, i see trouble down that road
2154 2014-02-11 17:07:11 <Majjiok> I know its "minor", but anyhow it would be cool to be able to clean them
2155 2014-02-11 17:07:11 <BB-Martino> screw that.
2156 2014-02-11 17:07:22 <helo> Majjiok: i assume they are going to fix that as well
2157 2014-02-11 17:07:28 <BB-Martino> there's no point in cleaning if 2 minutes later you'll get it trashed again
2158 2014-02-11 17:07:31 <jaakkos> BB-Martino: invalidating inputs?
2159 2014-02-11 17:07:33 w000t has joined
2160 2014-02-11 17:07:35 Jankxed has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2161 2014-02-11 17:07:41 <BB-Martino> that's what was said about a page up
2162 2014-02-11 17:07:49 KillYourTV has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2163 2014-02-11 17:07:53 <BB-Martino> [17:03] <helo> jeremias: a reorg can make legal tx's illegal, so you'd want to wait enough confirmations to ensure a reorg doesn't do that
2164 2014-02-11 17:07:54 coiners has joined
2165 2014-02-11 17:08:10 gh12as is now known as gh12as|afk
2166 2014-02-11 17:08:16 _ImI_ has quit (Quit: _ImI_)
2167 2014-02-11 17:08:21 <jaakkos> is that related to salvagewallet
2168 2014-02-11 17:08:36 highman78 has joined
2169 2014-02-11 17:08:56 <BB-Martino> i thought it was
2170 2014-02-11 17:09:00 KillYourTV has joined
2171 2014-02-11 17:09:00 Grouver has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2172 2014-02-11 17:09:04 <BB-Martino> now i'm not sure
2173 2014-02-11 17:09:06 <Majjiok> what will salvagewallet do?
2174 2014-02-11 17:09:15 <jgarzik> Restore the balances
2175 2014-02-11 17:09:16 <denisx> so mt.gox was right in the first place?
2176 2014-02-11 17:09:22 <Apocalyptic> no
2177 2014-02-11 17:09:28 <UukGoblin> well, the client could wait to see if a reorg happens, and if it does, it could re-broadcast modified transactions I guess...
2178 2014-02-11 17:09:30 <jgarzik> of bitcoind/BitcoinQt's thin, optional accounting layer.
2179 2014-02-11 17:09:42 <gmaxwell> salvagewallet erases all metadata in the wallet and just keeps the keys.
2180 2014-02-11 17:09:42 <BB-Martino> well, they had extra problems arising out of their own implementation, but they were right that this affects everyone (only in different ways)
2181 2014-02-11 17:10:04 Inception has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2182 2014-02-11 17:10:24 <jaakkos> so... for wallet providers, what is the problem with stopping withdrawals if there is unconfirmed balance?
2183 2014-02-11 17:10:25 <Majjiok> well... I do use bitcoind/QT thin, optional accounting layer
2184 2014-02-11 17:10:26 <BB-Martino> gmaxwell: and what are the results of that?
2185 2014-02-11 17:10:27 <Majjiok> :(
2186 2014-02-11 17:10:41 <Majjiok> so this hacker wanna be is making me lose time, which is money at the end of the day
2187 2014-02-11 17:10:48 <Majjiok> fuck... :(
2188 2014-02-11 17:10:57 <BB-Martino> jaakkos: someone could just deposit 0.0000001 every ~20 minutes
2189 2014-02-11 17:11:01 <BB-Martino> and they do deposit
2190 2014-02-11 17:11:01 <helo> the key though is to minimize the occurance of transactions in wallets that never confirm, which i think is complicated by current wallet behavior along with malleability.
2191 2014-02-11 17:11:09 <gmaxwell> BB-Martino: you lose all your labels, accounts, comments, unconfirmed txn, and fixes any confusion related to that.
2192 2014-02-11 17:11:12 <jaakkos> BB-Martino: ah, since it's a shared wallet
2193 2014-02-11 17:11:32 <Majjiok> gmaxwell: wow, that's very bad. I can't lose all my labels, accounts and comments!!
2194 2014-02-11 17:11:32 <BB-Martino> yeah, most web wallets are. except blockchain.info.
2195 2014-02-11 17:11:40 Jankxed has joined
2196 2014-02-11 17:11:44 _ImI_ has joined
2197 2014-02-11 17:11:48 drayah has joined
2198 2014-02-11 17:11:58 <BB-Martino> I'm more worried about the 'unconfirmed tx' part
2199 2014-02-11 17:11:59 <UukGoblin> so can someone confirm whether there's a bug in bitcoin-qt?
2200 2014-02-11 17:12:00 <Majjiok> gmaxwell: so you would suggest me to wait till a fix is released? Do you think it will be in the next few days?
2201 2014-02-11 17:12:29 torokun has joined
2202 2014-02-11 17:12:34 <UukGoblin> (like, related to the malleability problem with change addresses?)
2203 2014-02-11 17:12:43 diegofv has joined
2204 2014-02-11 17:12:44 <gmaxwell> Majjiok: sure, if the metadata matters to you.
2205 2014-02-11 17:12:54 Guest45257 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [SeaMonkey 2.22.1/20131113180422])
2206 2014-02-11 17:12:56 drayah_ has joined
2207 2014-02-11 17:13:18 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: sure, I commented about that like, years ago. it can make you end up with never confirming txn, there is a workaround in github to not spend unconfirmed change.
2208 2014-02-11 17:13:23 <helo> gmaxwell: how will the fix deal with transactions in the wallet that will never confirm due to malleability?
2209 2014-02-11 17:13:24 <Majjiok> gmaxwell: yes, the metadata matters. I base my accounting on it and I have thousands of addresses each one with his label, etc.
2210 2014-02-11 17:13:45 <helo> i guess effectively running salvagewallet on startup?
2211 2014-02-11 17:13:49 <gmaxwell> helo: fuck no!
2212 2014-02-11 17:13:49 roidster has joined
2213 2014-02-11 17:13:59 <helo> (although preserving metadata)
2214 2014-02-11 17:14:00 <BB-Martino> gmaxwell: you said salvagewallet removes 'unconfirmed txn'. Does that mean outgoing transactions, meaning I'd have to re-submit them, does it mean i'd lose coins, etc?
2215 2014-02-11 17:14:06 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, oh, ok
2216 2014-02-11 17:14:08 <gmaxwell> helo: by not considering the inputs spent if the mempool rejects the transaction, most likely.
2217 2014-02-11 17:14:08 <BB-Martino> please clarify a bit
2218 2014-02-11 17:14:22 <UukGoblin> so there's nothing known that's more serious than that?
2219 2014-02-11 17:14:26 <gmaxwell> BB-Martino: no you can't lose coins as a result of that.
2220 2014-02-11 17:14:29 Zarutian has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2221 2014-02-11 17:14:37 <BB-Martino> i might do it then
2222 2014-02-11 17:14:58 <gmaxwell> of course, always backup before doing a salvage wallet.
2223 2014-02-11 17:15:08 drayah___ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2224 2014-02-11 17:15:11 <BB-Martino> naturally.
2225 2014-02-11 17:15:17 HeySteve2 has joined
2226 2014-02-11 17:15:22 drayah__ has joined
2227 2014-02-11 17:15:34 <Majjiok> gmaxwell: and BTW, congrats for your awesome job explaining thoroughly what is this "transaction malleability" thing and how its one of the many things that affected Gox and their amateurish set up
2228 2014-02-11 17:15:41 bitjedi has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2229 2014-02-11 17:15:49 <iwilcox> BB-Martino: You're happy to lose "labels, accounts, comments"?
2230 2014-02-11 17:15:49 <Majjiok> I guess panic could have spread without such a quick and clear explanation of the issue
2231 2014-02-11 17:15:58 drayah___ has joined
2232 2014-02-11 17:16:26 Blackreign has joined
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2234 2014-02-11 17:16:37 <helo> i'm more interested in the identity of the entity that is able to spread the malleted versions of transactions faster than the originals
2235 2014-02-11 17:16:43 <iwilcox> Me too.
2236 2014-02-11 17:16:51 <helo> they must have quite a few nodes...
2237 2014-02-11 17:17:02 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2238 2014-02-11 17:17:04 draya____ has joined
2239 2014-02-11 17:17:12 <gmaxwell> it's not hard to do that with custom code, bitcoind has a 100ms sleep in the network processing loop.
2240 2014-02-11 17:17:40 w000t has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2241 2014-02-11 17:17:41 <kjj> I'd be more interested in finding out if one particular pool mined most of them or if they were spread around
2242 2014-02-11 17:17:42 <jaakkos> why does the code sleep instead of select()/epoll
2243 2014-02-11 17:17:51 <Majjiok> well, its true that ALL the transactions I sent were "malleated" (or whatever the word is), and the "malleated" ones confirmed always before the original ones
2244 2014-02-11 17:18:18 HeySteve has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2245 2014-02-11 17:18:20 <gmaxwell> well they may have a mining pool helping them.
2246 2014-02-11 17:18:28 drayah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2247 2014-02-11 17:19:06 <Majjiok> I can understand doing this to prove a point, but why are they continuing? I mean, they have no financial gain here, and I know by heart they are really making me lose a ton of time today... All my accounting which is based on QT's interface is royally screwed
2248 2014-02-11 17:19:26 <dangerm00se> majjiok: no financial gain? how do you figure that one..
2249 2014-02-11 17:19:27 <lnovy> price manipulation
2250 2014-02-11 17:19:42 <dangerm00se> they probably made a killing..
2251 2014-02-11 17:19:46 drayah has joined
2252 2014-02-11 17:19:47 <sneak> Majjiok: there's never really a convenient time - maybe they are trying to make sure it's fixed quickly. who knows?
2253 2014-02-11 17:19:59 <sneak> better now than a year from now
2254 2014-02-11 17:20:08 <Majjiok> dangerm00se: what financial gain are they having by malleating my transactions?? I'm not Gox and i'm using the reference implementation, thus I see the transaction going through even if its "malleated"
2255 2014-02-11 17:20:12 drayah__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2256 2014-02-11 17:20:14 <dangerm00se> wonder what plus500 and similar did - did they honour the short positions
2257 2014-02-11 17:20:31 Mkhan has joined
2258 2014-02-11 17:20:33 <dangerm00se> majjiok: as per lnovy - they take a short position let it loose and then close out their position when it's fixed
2259 2014-02-11 17:20:38 drayah___ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2260 2014-02-11 17:20:42 <dangerm00se> or just sell before and by on the dip.
2261 2014-02-11 17:21:07 <jouke> I always thought minconf was set to 1 by default?
2262 2014-02-11 17:21:16 Mkhan has left ()
2263 2014-02-11 17:21:18 <gmaxwell> jouke: you'll spend your own unconfirmed change.
2264 2014-02-11 17:21:46 <gmaxwell> jouke: there is a patch to let you disable that (it's a privacy leak too)
2265 2014-02-11 17:21:48 banghouse has joined
2266 2014-02-11 17:21:51 _ImI_ has quit (Quit: _ImI_)
2267 2014-02-11 17:21:54 <Majjiok> dangerm00se: I see... You might be right. People without a heart... Fucking with everybody else just for profit, messing up people's hard work... I guess that if they are so smart to pull this off they could be earning millions in many other ways.
2268 2014-02-11 17:21:59 <jouke> gmaxwell: how is it a privacy leak?
2269 2014-02-11 17:22:16 <jouke> gmaxwell: I am watching the comments at that patch.
2270 2014-02-11 17:22:26 <wumpus> jouke: you're right, the default for minconf is 1
2271 2014-02-11 17:22:28 <sneak> is it a privacy leak because it makes evident which output is change?
2272 2014-02-11 17:22:38 <helo> sneak: yes
2273 2014-02-11 17:22:41 <wumpus> jouke: (for sendmany)
2274 2014-02-11 17:22:44 draya____ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2275 2014-02-11 17:22:51 <wumpus> jouke: so just providing that won't solve the issue
2276 2014-02-11 17:23:01 <wumpus> seems you really do need the patch, I could be wrong though...
2277 2014-02-11 17:23:04 <jouke> I know change is spend without confirmation, but other incoming transactions aren't spent anyway without confirmation.
2278 2014-02-11 17:23:06 drayah_ has joined
2279 2014-02-11 17:23:39 <jouke> gmaxwell: am interested in the privacy leak though!
2280 2014-02-11 17:23:46 <gmaxwell> jouke: well if you spend at 0 confirm, I know it was your change you were spending.
2281 2014-02-11 17:23:58 <gmaxwell> (or that you're not running bitcoinqt)
2282 2014-02-11 17:24:03 w000t has joined
2283 2014-02-11 17:24:32 mids has joined
2284 2014-02-11 17:24:35 <jouke> or using rawtransaction.
2285 2014-02-11 17:24:41 <Majjiok> jouke: well, when you spend that satoshi the sender knows that the owner of the address that received the satoshi is also the owner of the other addresses in the transaction
2286 2014-02-11 17:24:44 <gmaxwell> right.
2287 2014-02-11 17:24:51 <gmaxwell> It's not a big privacy leak
2288 2014-02-11 17:24:52 <jouke> gmaxwell: so that patch improves privacy
2289 2014-02-11 17:24:57 <jouke> doesn't it?
2290 2014-02-11 17:25:02 drayah__ has joined
2291 2014-02-11 17:25:06 <gmaxwell> at the expense of making you fail to send in some cases.
2292 2014-02-11 17:25:22 <jouke> yes, your wallet will drain out quicker.
2293 2014-02-11 17:25:36 kyle_torpey has joined
2294 2014-02-11 17:25:40 <jouke> But at the moment it's hard for our administration.
2295 2014-02-11 17:25:41 <wumpus> yes, at the expense of making your wallet unwieldier and having to babysit inputs
2296 2014-02-11 17:25:56 <sneak> this may encourage people to make more multi-output transactions to reduce change amounts, no?
2297 2014-02-11 17:26:02 <jouke> sneak: yes
2298 2014-02-11 17:26:07 <sneak> i mean, multiple change returns to themself
2299 2014-02-11 17:26:20 <sneak> for finer-grained control
2300 2014-02-11 17:26:25 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
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2302 2014-02-11 17:26:36 <jaakkos> should we just disable spending unconfirmed change by default
2303 2014-02-11 17:26:43 <jouke> sneak: oh, yes.
2304 2014-02-11 17:26:48 <jaakkos> are the devs doing that?
2305 2014-02-11 17:26:48 drayah has joined
2306 2014-02-11 17:26:55 <gmaxwell> We're not planning on making that a default, it's just too disruptive.
2307 2014-02-11 17:27:07 <jouke> gmaxwell: this isn't disruptive?
2308 2014-02-11 17:27:09 <jaakkos> but there is no guarantee the spending will work
2309 2014-02-11 17:27:22 <jaakkos> who would choose to enable it?
2310 2014-02-11 17:27:25 drayah___ has joined
2311 2014-02-11 17:27:31 <jouke> Our wallet is creating transactions that get "doublespent" by other transactions.
2312 2014-02-11 17:27:41 <jaakkos> enabling it would be pure gambling
2313 2014-02-11 17:27:44 <sneak> jaakkos: privacy freaks who don't want people to know how much they're paying vs receiving in change
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2316 2014-02-11 17:28:22 <jouke> But the wallet software isn't able to handle that problem at the moment gmaxwell.
2317 2014-02-11 17:28:22 <jaakkos> sneak: but it just doesn't work
2318 2014-02-11 17:28:22 <jouke> (high frequency wallet)
2319 2014-02-11 17:28:22 <pera> "<@gmaxwell> well they may have a mining pool helping them" <- huh?
2320 2014-02-11 17:28:22 <gmaxwell> pera: can you ask an actual question?
2321 2014-02-11 17:28:44 drayah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2322 2014-02-11 17:28:47 <lnovy> pera: no need to have a deal with the pool, you just relay the transaction quicky to it
2323 2014-02-11 17:28:47 <helo> pera: the key is to get the malleated version of transactions into blocks instead of the original, which a mining pool could facilitate.
2324 2014-02-11 17:29:10 <lnovy> but having a deal helps
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2326 2014-02-11 17:29:45 venzen has joined
2327 2014-02-11 17:30:15 <pera> helo: I know, but why some miner/mining pool would help this to happen?
2328 2014-02-11 17:30:17 <pera> for what reason?
2329 2014-02-11 17:30:18 <kjj> I should see if I can cobble up a filter for my p2pool node that always reduces transactions to the minimal form
2330 2014-02-11 17:30:20 <helo> you'd lose a majority of the time, but it would succeed enough
2331 2014-02-11 17:30:20 drayah__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2332 2014-02-11 17:30:20 <jaakkos> do we want a huge amount of users with their funds stuck, or disable spending the change by default?
2333 2014-02-11 17:30:24 draya____ has joined
2334 2014-02-11 17:30:25 <pera> and who is "they"? X)
2335 2014-02-11 17:30:34 <pera> *are
2336 2014-02-11 17:30:36 <Majjiok> helo: they are succeeding big time at least in my case, but I don't get why they need to get their transaction first... Even if their transaction was the one that didn't get on the blockchain I would still see each transaction twice, right?
2337 2014-02-11 17:30:40 <helo> pera: i won't speculate on that... "follow the money"?
2338 2014-02-11 17:30:42 <wumpus> in theory, the wallet software could also queue up sends and make sendmanys out of them automatically instead of generating chains of change 
2339 2014-02-11 17:30:46 Tray_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2340 2014-02-11 17:30:52 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2341 2014-02-11 17:31:09 <jouke> wumpus: would that be an easy thing to do?
2342 2014-02-11 17:31:19 <dangerm00se> gmaxwell: i'm thinking online web wallets should be topping up their hot wallets with lots of small TX rather than large movements - that way generally less of the balance will be held up in unconfirmed change.. do i understand it correctly ?
2343 2014-02-11 17:31:23 agricocb has joined
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2346 2014-02-11 17:32:20 <wumpus> jouke: in principle, no, I suppose you'd set a certain deadline at the first send (+N minutes) and everything that comes in before it is sent in the same transaction
2347 2014-02-11 17:32:24 airq has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2348 2014-02-11 17:32:27 <jaakkos> that sonuds like a horrible plan
2349 2014-02-11 17:32:46 drayah___ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2350 2014-02-11 17:32:52 coinuser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2351 2014-02-11 17:32:57 <jouke> that souns like a wonderfull plan
2352 2014-02-11 17:33:26 <gmaxwell> it's something you'd op-in / op-out, in any case. some would love it, some would hate it.
2353 2014-02-11 17:33:38 <wumpus> jaakkos: well, you're not forced to do anything in bitcoin
2354 2014-02-11 17:33:42 <jaakkos> jouke: so how do you decide how long to wait? what if the user wants to pay immediately? or something happens that kills the user's client and the payment doesn't get sent because of that?
2355 2014-02-11 17:33:58 _ImI_ has joined
2356 2014-02-11 17:34:01 <jeremias> localbitcoins.com outgoing transactions are now delayed until I can be sure that the bitcoind sends proper transactions
2357 2014-02-11 17:34:10 drayah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2358 2014-02-11 17:34:16 <wumpus> but I'll shut up already :p
2359 2014-02-11 17:34:24 drayah_ has joined
2360 2014-02-11 17:34:43 <jouke> nah, we'll create it ourselves :P
2361 2014-02-11 17:34:52 <jgarzik> Look at listunspent, and make sure funds are available for the desired spend
2362 2014-02-11 17:34:54 <wumpus> yes it may be better as a layer on top
2363 2014-02-11 17:34:58 <jgarzik> with 6 confirmations
2364 2014-02-11 17:34:58 draya____ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2365 2014-02-11 17:35:20 <jgarzik> bitcoind should always try coins w/ 6 confirms first AFAICS
2366 2014-02-11 17:35:50 <jouke> jgarzik: yeah, but with an high frequency wallet that's quite hard to maintain.
2367 2014-02-11 17:35:56 <wumpus> jgarzik: yes it tries those first
2368 2014-02-11 17:36:04 <jouke> (tens of transactions per minute)
2369 2014-02-11 17:36:13 <jgarzik> jouke, agreed
2370 2014-02-11 17:36:18 <wumpus> then it tries 1 confirm, and only then it tries 0 confirms change
2371 2014-02-11 17:36:23 <jgarzik> yes
2372 2014-02-11 17:36:34 <jgarzik> jouke, but it is nonetheless an effective rule for the moment
2373 2014-02-11 17:36:47 <wumpus> and only that last case is very broken now
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2376 2014-02-11 17:37:55 <jgarzik> yes
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2378 2014-02-11 17:39:30 <UukGoblin> imo it'd be fine if it actively listened for malleaed transactions and re-broadcast the transactions that have changed
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2385 2014-02-11 17:41:13 <wumpus> UukGoblin: that doesn't work, there is no point rebroadcasting transactions that are already in the memory pool in another form
2386 2014-02-11 17:41:42 <helo> UukGoblin: it's likely that you'll only see the alternate form of your transaction when it is confirmed
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2389 2014-02-11 17:42:18 <UukGoblin> wumpus, I mean to rebroadcast a chained transaction that relied on an unconfirmed output that has been malleaeaed
2390 2014-02-11 17:42:18 <wumpus> even less if the alternative form comes to you in a block
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2393 2014-02-11 17:42:33 <UukGoblin> it'd be a different transaction then
2394 2014-02-11 17:43:00 <wumpus> UukGoblin: yes, you'd need to rebuild and resign the dependent transactions in that case, not just rebroadcast
2395 2014-02-11 17:43:08 <UukGoblin> because the original one would become invalid (as soon as the malleaed txn gets confirmed)
2396 2014-02-11 17:43:16 <helo> because only one form will be relayed to you by your peers... it would be interesting to know how many nodes are seeing one form first vs the other
2397 2014-02-11 17:43:26 <wumpus> in the case of the wallet that would require your passphrase
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2399 2014-02-11 17:44:04 <helo> hopefully there are monitoring nodes set up that will tell us just that
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2409 2014-02-11 17:47:48 <wumpus> helo: would indeed be interesting to see
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2414 2014-02-11 17:49:09 <dangerm00se> are you guys seeing more orphans than normal?
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2425 2014-02-11 17:54:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does anyone happen to know what format pywallet.py expects in the --otherversion=OTHERVERSION option?
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2438 2014-02-11 17:57:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|nvm, looks like it's decimal
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2445 2014-02-11 18:02:18 <honeymonster> michagogo|cloud: Is the OTHER VERSION value the "Decimal version" found here? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/List_of_address_prefixes
2446 2014-02-11 18:02:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|yep
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2466 2014-02-11 18:10:06 <gotnate> did i miss something? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1xm49o/due_to_active_malleable_transaction_relayers_it/ is implying the txnID is part of the input, so spending unconfirmed change breaks if the txnID changes. Is the txnID part of the input?
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2487 2014-02-11 18:16:59 <honeymonster> gotnate: I'm curious too
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2495 2014-02-11 18:22:09 <jouke> Dose anyone have an idea how to purge our wallet of wallettransactions?
2496 2014-02-11 18:22:32 <Apocalyptic> salvagewallet
2497 2014-02-11 18:22:45 <jouke> Ubt that will wipe out our accounts
2498 2014-02-11 18:22:54 <Apocalyptic> yes
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2539 2014-02-11 18:34:15 <xabbix> Guys what's going on? Is everybody halting withdrawals due to the mallability issue?
2540 2014-02-11 18:34:22 nirom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2541 2014-02-11 18:34:29 <Majjiok> xabbix: it seems so.
2542 2014-02-11 18:34:32 <jouke> does bitcoin build on gcc4.7?
2543 2014-02-11 18:34:44 <Majjiok> xabbix: http://www.coindesk.com/massive-concerted-attack-launched-bitcoin-exchanges/
2544 2014-02-11 18:34:52 ejhong has joined
2545 2014-02-11 18:35:07 <Majjiok> xabbix: it looks that some retard wants to buy cheap coins
2546 2014-02-11 18:35:23 nirom has joined
2547 2014-02-11 18:35:38 <xabbix> Yeah well if he's getting it done via this mallability issue then maybe it needs to be addressed sooner than bitcoin core dev team assessed
2548 2014-02-11 18:35:45 <Majjiok> what I wonder is how many nodes would you need to pull this trick... I made like 50 transactions today and ALL of them has been "malled" and ALL of them were confirmed before the original ones
2549 2014-02-11 18:35:55 <Majjiok> doesn't that take a lot of nodes + mining power?
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2551 2014-02-11 18:36:19 <xabbix> it's awfully quite here.. jgarzik gmaxwell
2552 2014-02-11 18:36:21 <Majjiok> I mean, could you pull this stunt and flood the network in such a way with just 3/4 nodes in the cloud and no collusion with a mining pool?
2553 2014-02-11 18:36:29 <Majjiok> what do you guys think (the devs)?
2554 2014-02-11 18:36:33 <wumpus> jouke: I wouldn't know why not
2555 2014-02-11 18:37:04 <Majjiok> Is this really a "massive effort" to flood the network with this shit or the attack is so easy that just a few nodes with no mining pool collusion could achieve the same result?
2556 2014-02-11 18:37:16 <wumpus> jouke: I build it with 4.6.x, and 4.8 myself, so ...
2557 2014-02-11 18:37:33 sneak has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2558 2014-02-11 18:37:56 <wumpus> xabbix: don't you think they are awfully quiet *because* they are working?
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2560 2014-02-11 18:38:14 <lechuga_> oh man what a mess
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2563 2014-02-11 18:38:22 <lechuga_> re: ddos
2564 2014-02-11 18:38:28 <xabbix> wumpus, Obviously a possibility, just wondering if they are actively involved
2565 2014-02-11 18:38:30 <lechuga_> i was wondering if some idiot would try that
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2567 2014-02-11 18:38:33 <shesek> Majjiok, I don't think it requires hashing power, just a lot of nodes that relay modified transactions
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2572 2014-02-11 18:39:12 <lechuga_> they dont have to be real nodes
2573 2014-02-11 18:39:23 <Majjiok> shesek: how many nodes would you need? Really, I've broadcasted 50 transactions today and ALL of them were malled and ALL of them didn't confirm because the malled ones made to the block before the original ones...
2574 2014-02-11 18:39:24 <wumpus> xabbix: yes, they are involved, no need to worry
2575 2014-02-11 18:39:44 <wumpus> xabbix: how can you help?
2576 2014-02-11 18:39:46 <lechuga_> they just have to connect to peers and spam mutated txns
2577 2014-02-11 18:39:55 <lechuga_> i dont think theres much cost to it
2578 2014-02-11 18:40:15 <xabbix> wumpus, thanks. was just curious. nothing you can help with.
2579 2014-02-11 18:40:48 <maaku> is LGPL code ok for bitcoin-core?
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2581 2014-02-11 18:41:02 <petertodd> maaku: probably not
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2583 2014-02-11 18:41:14 <wumpus> maaku: as external library? yes, but it obviously cannot be merged
2584 2014-02-11 18:41:14 <petertodd> maaku: I don't have any objection personally, but someone will
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2586 2014-02-11 18:41:26 <petertodd> maaku: right, external is ok
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2588 2014-02-11 18:41:42 <Majjiok> petertodd: what would you think? To manage to "malleate" such a huge amounts of transactions the attackers are controlling a lot of nodes? Are they colluding with a mining pool?
2589 2014-02-11 18:42:01 <wumpus> maaku: but you don't really plan on adding another dependency do you? :p
2590 2014-02-11 18:42:09 <petertodd> Majjiok: they're just connecting to a lot of nodes and relaying tx's faster than others can; that's not hard
2591 2014-02-11 18:42:12 <andytoshi> i think we should have another channel for people panicking and insisting that the devs should be controlling market movements..
2592 2014-02-11 18:42:20 <BTCHero> I had a weird transaction. http://i.imgur.com/2oqLRdu.png https://blockchain.info/address/16g6M5SmsBR3j5Ui5xin3S8WbLiwjW7N2M I only made one transaction, then my client broadcast another one without me doing anything.  Is this related to the recent attacks?
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2594 2014-02-11 18:42:32 <petertodd> Majjiok: I personally have done much more amibitious attacks than that
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2596 2014-02-11 18:42:49 <maaku> wumpus: an external dependency, no
2597 2014-02-11 18:42:50 <Majjiok> BTCHero: that's precisely the attack. I got +50 like that today...
2598 2014-02-11 18:43:00 <lechuga_> so i guess the entire ecosystem has been using txids incorrectly
2599 2014-02-11 18:43:11 <maaku> it wasn't clear to me if an LGPL C++ file could be staticly linked
2600 2014-02-11 18:43:16 <petertodd> Majjiok: you could do what these attackers are doing with a single computer; it's only an attack because wallets haven't been getting much attention
2601 2014-02-11 18:43:17 <Majjiok> petertodd: well I have to say that it makes me feel better to know that people as competent as you is watching and thinking
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2603 2014-02-11 18:43:28 <maaku> (such that that file only stayed under the LGPL)
2604 2014-02-11 18:43:28 <wumpus> maaku: it can, as long as you distribute the source
2605 2014-02-11 18:43:33 <petertodd> maaku: for redistribution you have to provide the ability to take the objects and relink, which is possible
2606 2014-02-11 18:43:38 <petertodd> maaku: or of course source
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2608 2014-02-11 18:44:07 <maaku> but would that make bitcoind fall under the (L)GPL?
2609 2014-02-11 18:44:09 <lechuga_> what are the prevailing node implementations these large exhcnages are using
2610 2014-02-11 18:44:15 <Majjiok> petertodd: really? You can manage to change the transactions IDs of practically all the transactions being broadcasted, while ALWAYS managing to get them in the blocks before the original transaction? You could do that with a single computer?
2611 2014-02-11 18:44:16 <wumpus> so we're in the clear, but if you want to make a closed-source statically linked bitcoind fork you may have to do some legal hackery (such as make it possible to relink and provide your code as .o's...)
2612 2014-02-11 18:44:21 <maaku> I'm looking for reed-solomon encoders and all the best ones are LGPL..
2613 2014-02-11 18:44:28 <lechuga_> based on bitstamps note it looks like they use the headless client
2614 2014-02-11 18:44:33 <fluffypony> is someone able to chime in and answer my question re: how bitcoind handles transaction malleability? here's linkage: http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinSerious/comments/1xm76f/question_how_does_bitcoind_handle_transaction/
2615 2014-02-11 18:44:37 <andytoshi> maaku: it's a real PITA, you basically have to provide all the object files. it's just as inconvienient as gpl. but it's not viral
2616 2014-02-11 18:44:45 <petertodd> Majjiok: yup, all you have to do to pull that off is find some miners to connect to directly, which is easy
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2618 2014-02-11 18:44:59 <andytoshi> maaku: so the rest of the source will be unaffected
2619 2014-02-11 18:45:22 <petertodd> maaku: there's a similar situation with python-bitcoinlib actually; the RPC code is LGPL (GPL?)
2620 2014-02-11 18:45:25 <lechuga_> maaku: curios, what r u using erasure codes for in bitcoind?
2621 2014-02-11 18:45:28 <lechuga_> curious*
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2625 2014-02-11 18:46:10 <maaku> i'm prototyping a "normative" transaction ID using ECC codes and base32 encoding
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2628 2014-02-11 18:46:29 <money> GUYS
2629 2014-02-11 18:46:38 <money> bitstamp stopped withdrawals
2630 2014-02-11 18:46:47 <lechuga_> thx for the report
2631 2014-02-11 18:46:48 <money> whats going on with bitcoins?
2632 2014-02-11 18:46:49 <Majjiok> petertodd: my QT is now a mess, cluttered by uncofirmed transactions that will never confirm... I rely on the thin accounting layer of QT (labels, etc.), so I don't want to do a salvagewallet... Do you think we will see a Bitcoin-QT/bitcoind update in the next few hours to fix this?
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2636 2014-02-11 18:47:16 <lechuga_> maaku: why do u need reed-solomon for that
2637 2014-02-11 18:47:16 <maaku> something which is visualy distinctive from hex ids, and can easily be read over the phone, and survies 2-3 typos
2638 2014-02-11 18:47:17 <wumpus> Majjiok: there will be an update to clean that up, but certainly not in the next few hours
2639 2014-02-11 18:47:41 <maaku> lechuga_: as an error correction code
2640 2014-02-11 18:47:51 <lechuga_> what would introduce the error
2641 2014-02-11 18:47:58 <lechuga_> how would u drop bits
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2644 2014-02-11 18:48:32 <kuzz0> hey guys
2645 2014-02-11 18:48:39 <Majjiok> wumpus: it might not be too serious, but its quite annoying... I'm basing all my accounting on QT, and now its all screwed up with unconfirmed transactions... This attackers could get a friggin life
2646 2014-02-11 18:48:47 <andytoshi> lechuga_: when sending txids to/from customer support, for example, or reading over the phone
2647 2014-02-11 18:48:52 <kuzz0> any news from the devs about the bitstamp, gox situation ? are they both connected ?
2648 2014-02-11 18:49:05 <kuzz0> thats some scary days ahead of us
2649 2014-02-11 18:49:10 <wumpus> why would a transaction id need an error correction code? I suppose the space of transaction ids is already very sparse so you could easily do a partial match
2650 2014-02-11 18:49:11 <andytoshi> lechuga_: basically anything you were doing with txids that is problematic re malleability, there is opportunity for error
2651 2014-02-11 18:49:38 <lechuga_> interesting
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2653 2014-02-11 18:50:08 <andytoshi> kuzz0: it is not scary, this is a well-known property of the protocol that these companies claim not to be aware of. neither of them were reputable in the first place, so it's not even a surprise
2654 2014-02-11 18:50:11 <torokun> if you can change a few digits, it's malleable
2655 2014-02-11 18:50:14 <wumpus> Majjiok: yes it's annoying, but we need to put up with it for now, better to handle this correctly than rush some half-solution that breaks down later
2656 2014-02-11 18:50:15 <maaku> wumpus: because of real world noisy use case scenarios, such as customer support over the phone
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2659 2014-02-11 18:50:55 <kuzz0> andytoshi what are the alternatives for bitstamp,gox ?
2660 2014-02-11 18:50:56 <lechuga_> maaku: do you have a bip or other design up?
2661 2014-02-11 18:51:01 ahmed_bodi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2662 2014-02-11 18:51:06 <maaku> not yet, prootyping first
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2664 2014-02-11 18:51:16 <lechuga_> sounds interesting good luck
2665 2014-02-11 18:51:51 <andytoshi> kuzz0: i dunno, i'm not american and this is OT for -dev
2666 2014-02-11 18:51:54 v3ry3l33te has joined
2667 2014-02-11 18:51:58 <petertodd> fluffypony: replied
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2669 2014-02-11 18:52:03 <fluffypony> petertodd: thanks :)
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2673 2014-02-11 18:52:32 <lechuga_> petertodd: if you had to make a recommendation for infrastrcuture to a big exchange
2674 2014-02-11 18:52:45 <lechuga_> would you have them use bitcoind or an alternate library/impl
2675 2014-02-11 18:52:54 <petertodd> lechuga_: certainely an alternate library
2676 2014-02-11 18:53:04 <lechuga_> you wouldnt even use bitcoind for txn notification?
2677 2014-02-11 18:53:09 owowo has joined
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2679 2014-02-11 18:53:17 <lechuga_> would bitcoinj be the go-to choice?
2680 2014-02-11 18:53:29 <petertodd> lechuga_: well, you'll always use the library *in conjunction* with a trusted bitcoin node that you run yourself
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2682 2014-02-11 18:53:49 <petertodd> lechuga_: lots of options; I'm a scientist, not a programmer :)
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2684 2014-02-11 18:54:25 <lechuga_> thats fair, thx
2685 2014-02-11 18:54:59 <maaku> lechuga_: bitcoind *wallet* code does not handle that scale
2686 2014-02-11 18:55:08 <lechuga_> maaku: i understand that
2687 2014-02-11 18:55:08 <maaku> but it would be irresponsible not to use bitcoind for consensus code
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2689 2014-02-11 18:55:26 <lechuga_> thats what im getting at
2690 2014-02-11 18:55:39 <lechuga_> would the ideal infrastructure look something like bitcoind + external account mgmt?
2691 2014-02-11 18:55:44 <petertodd> lechuga_: exactly
2692 2014-02-11 18:56:00 <lechuga_> clearly bc.i, for example, doesnt do this
2693 2014-02-11 18:56:13 <lechuga_> unless theyve modified bitcoind to index addresses
2694 2014-02-11 18:56:17 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: how comes the libblkmaker improvements btw? :P
2695 2014-02-11 18:56:18 <maaku> which is what mtgox & bitstamp do ... it's just the details of their implementation which are aparantly messed up
2696 2014-02-11 18:56:18 drayah__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2697 2014-02-11 18:56:20 <wumpus> on the other hand, rolling your own wallet can be dangerous if you don't do it properly, just look at mtgox
2698 2014-02-11 18:56:24 <fluffypony> petertodd: is it fair to say that you can spend, in its entirety, coins that you have received after a few confirmations without hesitation?
2699 2014-02-11 18:56:29 <lechuga_> luke-jr: oh they've been up for review for awhile
2700 2014-02-11 18:56:37 <lechuga_> i broke them into pieces like you requested
2701 2014-02-11 18:56:56 <petertodd> fluffypony: pretty much
2702 2014-02-11 18:56:57 <jgarzik> lechuga_, RE "ideal infrastructure" -- yes
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2704 2014-02-11 18:57:05 <petertodd> bbl
2705 2014-02-11 18:57:09 <fluffypony> petertodd: awesome thanks, that clears it up for me
2706 2014-02-11 18:57:24 <jgarzik> fluffypony, yes
2707 2014-02-11 18:57:41 <lechuga_> luke-jr: https://gitorious.org/bitcoin/libblkmaker/merge_requests/1
2708 2014-02-11 18:57:59 <lechuga_> jgarzik, maaku: thx guys
2709 2014-02-11 18:58:08 <jgarzik> fluffypony, bitcoin is a consensus mechanism.  security is achieved through confirmations, to handwavesummarize.
2710 2014-02-11 18:58:09 <lechuga_> im going to build one for education
2711 2014-02-11 18:58:17 <lechuga_> and was curious if i was making the correct design choices
2712 2014-02-11 18:58:27 <lechuga_> for my own decuation*
2713 2014-02-11 18:58:31 <lechuga_> education even
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2715 2014-02-11 18:58:50 <fluffypony> jgarzik: yes, that's what I thought - this seems very much like a zero-confirmations problem, once it's confirmed there's no chance of the transaction magically disappearing
2716 2014-02-11 18:58:58 <fluffypony> s/problem/thing
2717 2014-02-11 18:59:30 <jgarzik> s/no chance/exponentially ever more likely/
2718 2014-02-11 18:59:31 <jgarzik> :)
2719 2014-02-11 18:59:39 <Apocalyptic> fluffypony, that's no news
2720 2014-02-11 18:59:48 <jgarzik> s/no chance/exponentially ever less likely/
2721 2014-02-11 18:59:51 <jgarzik> gah
2722 2014-02-11 18:59:57 <fluffypony> jgarzik: third time's the charm ;)
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2724 2014-02-11 19:00:55 <lechuga_> maaku: do u have nay idea what bc.i does? given they can compute the balance of arbitrary address balances?
2725 2014-02-11 19:01:13 Inception has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2727 2014-02-11 19:01:18 <lechuga_> in short order
2728 2014-02-11 19:01:36 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: addresses don't *have* balances.
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2731 2014-02-11 19:02:27 <sneak> gavinandresen: mornin' :)
2732 2014-02-11 19:02:29 <lechuga_> there is a notion of utxos payable to a particular address though
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2734 2014-02-11 19:02:36 <lechuga_> isnt that more or less a balance
2735 2014-02-11 19:02:38 <wumpus> lechuga_: they added an index on output
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2737 2014-02-11 19:02:58 <lechuga_> wumpus: via forked bitcoind?
2738 2014-02-11 19:03:11 <maaku> lechuga_: i have no knowledge of their infrastructre, but it is pretty clear that they don't forward web requests to a bitcoin daemon
2739 2014-02-11 19:03:15 <wumpus> lechuga_: no clue, ask them, that would be  a(fairly simple) way
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2741 2014-02-11 19:03:20 <maaku> they're probably pre-computing all that information in a database
2742 2014-02-11 19:03:30 <lechuga_> ah
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2744 2014-02-11 19:03:33 <lechuga_> that makes sense
2745 2014-02-11 19:04:03 <sneak> does anyone have a link to some of the dupe transactions? what exactly is being altered?
2746 2014-02-11 19:04:04 <wumpus> right, at their scale they'll probably read everything out and stuff it into a database, they could still be using a forked bitcoind to build it of course
2747 2014-02-11 19:04:23 <Luke-Jr> [19:02:22] <lechuga_> there is a notion of utxos payable to a particular address though <-- a useless concept
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2749 2014-02-11 19:04:46 <maaku> what wumpus just said is how bc.i worked when it first started. i have absolutely no idea if that is still the case
2750 2014-02-11 19:04:51 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: and it's payable to a particular ECDSA signature, not address
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2752 2014-02-11 19:05:05 <maaku> come now Luke-Jr, that is what people mean when they ask about 'balance'
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2756 2014-02-11 19:05:29 <lechuga_> luke-jr: thats fair
2757 2014-02-11 19:05:35 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2758 2014-02-11 19:05:37 <Luke-Jr> maaku: only if they are confused
2759 2014-02-11 19:05:50 drayah has joined
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2761 2014-02-11 19:06:27 <lechuga_> i dont know why its a useless concept
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2764 2014-02-11 19:06:50 <lechuga_> how would you describe the definition of "Final Balance" here: https://blockchain.info/address/19pZns1QaapoqoqtcGbrLwYJAUTFEeXk1N
2765 2014-02-11 19:07:03 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: because an ECDSA keypair is only used once, as part of a larger wallet which may represent 1 or more accounts
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2767 2014-02-11 19:07:17 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: I wouldn't. It's a completely useless number.
2768 2014-02-11 19:07:20 <lechuga_> haha
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2783 2014-02-11 19:11:14 <gmaxwell> wumpus: minconf doesn't do anything like what you thought it does, I'm almost completely sure.  Sorry, I've been AFK and missed you saying that above.
2784 2014-02-11 19:11:14 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: anyhow, back to development.. I thought we were using blktmpl_add_tmpl as blktmpl_copy?
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2790 2014-02-11 19:12:41 <lechuga_> i thought we left things with if the dst template is empty it functions as a bltktmpl_copy
2791 2014-02-11 19:12:50 <lechuga_> otherwise it merges
2792 2014-02-11 19:13:33 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yep providing minconf=X is not an alternative for the patch in #3651, which is what we thought for a moment
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2798 2014-02-11 19:15:44 <lechuga_> luke-jr: if you prefer some other semantics im up for changing it
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2800 2014-02-11 19:16:19 <gmaxwell> wumpus: making minconf have the other meaning might be nice, but it would be major code changes to plumb that through into coin selection, inadvisable right now.
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2803 2014-02-11 19:17:10 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: right, my point is no need for an alternate copy interface
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2808 2014-02-11 19:18:04 <lechuga_> oh so dump blktmpl_copy as a public interface?
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2812 2014-02-11 19:19:13 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: right
2813 2014-02-11 19:19:16 <lechuga_> seems reasonable
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2818 2014-02-11 19:20:06 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: blktmpl_add_tmpl_list seems broken without uthash
2819 2014-02-11 19:20:12 <chmod755> am i the only one who received several 1 satoshi transactions that never confirmed?
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2822 2014-02-11 19:20:24 <chmod755>  Network Propagation
2823 2014-02-11 19:20:24 <chmod755> 0% - 1 Nodes - (Very Poor)
2824 2014-02-11 19:20:29 <chmod755> hmmm
2825 2014-02-11 19:20:41 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: although I suppose that should probably be the case
2826 2014-02-11 19:20:49 <Luke-Jr> chmod755: no
2827 2014-02-11 19:20:54 <lechuga_> yeah i think so
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2830 2014-02-11 19:21:31 <sturles> At least "users of the reference implementation do not need to be concerned" about this malabillity problem.  But my transaction list is beginning to look quite messy, and why are my accounts all messed up?
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2833 2014-02-11 19:21:47 <denisx> I remember that when my pool had all unspent coins used new transactions needed to wait. now I hear change is immediately used. I am confused now
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2842 2014-02-11 19:24:06 <enki23> sorry i'm a little behind on the conversation here. is the -spendzeroconfchange confirmed to address the problem?
2843 2014-02-11 19:24:07 <Luke-Jr> sturles: but you aren't losing coins.
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2845 2014-02-11 19:24:27 <gavinandresen> sturles: mea culpa. Reference implementation definitely needs to be fixed…  but complaining at us won't make it get fixed any faster.
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2851 2014-02-11 19:26:16 <jeremias> gavinandresen: great to hear that
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2853 2014-02-11 19:26:38 <sturles> Luke-Jr: Fortunately.  But I'd say there are a few issues to be concerned about even if I'm not losing coins.
2854 2014-02-11 19:26:40 <lechuga_> luke-jr: ill fix up the change again tonight, need to stop procrastinating and do my actual work coding atm :)
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2856 2014-02-11 19:26:54 <sturles> gavinandresen: Great!
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2883 2014-02-11 19:36:16 <maaku> sturles: this is an annoying fact about transaction handling in the reference client we all wanted fixed. getting thrown in the limelight just made it a problem for people that weren't previously affected
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2899 2014-02-11 19:42:25 <jcorgan> sipa: your #2802 has been refreshed to work with current master and now has PR #3652
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2909 2014-02-11 19:46:08 <pera> gmaxwell and gavinandresen ?
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2914 2014-02-11 19:46:38 <pera> nothing, sorry, keep coding :x
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2931 2014-02-11 19:53:22 <muhoo> may i make a suggestion? can whomever runs the gribble bot change the default ticker from mtgox to something actually viable and meaningful?
2932 2014-02-11 19:53:38 <midnightmagic> muhoo: Wrong channel bro.
2933 2014-02-11 19:53:51 vibs29 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2934 2014-02-11 19:54:01 drayah___ has joined
2935 2014-02-11 19:54:14 <muhoo> same with whomever runs bitcoincharts.com. midnightmagic, sorry, i assumed it was a dev that ran that bot
2936 2014-02-11 19:54:20 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2937 2014-02-11 19:54:30 <midnightmagic> :)
2938 2014-02-11 19:54:39 abrkn has quit (Excess Flood)
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2940 2014-02-11 19:55:00 <midnightmagic> muhoo: It's nanotube and you can find him everywhere. It wouldn't be offtopic in #bitcoin I think. Or especially #bitcoin-otc.
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2949 2014-02-11 19:56:23 <muhoo> he's here, so he's been highlighted :-) thanks
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2951 2014-02-11 19:56:43 <Inception> Any update on the malleable transactions problem? We have applied the wupus -spendzeroconfchange patch. Will there be an official update in near future?
2952 2014-02-11 19:56:50 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2955 2014-02-11 19:58:06 <maaku> Inception: asking status updates distracts developers from actually working on things which might improve the situation
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2959 2014-02-11 19:59:48 <Inception> thats why this channel has 625 people, the developers dont have to answer themselves if the community has information
2960 2014-02-11 19:59:48 <Pieh0> no in the eyes of corporations, ask for 15 min updates = faster problem solving... somehow
2961 2014-02-11 20:00:14 <abrkn> bitstamp blog: "Currently it has suspended processing Bitcoin withdrawals due to inconsistent results reported by our bitcoind wallet". what is meant by this?
2962 2014-02-11 20:00:43 <muhoo> abrkn: they did the same dumb thing mtgox was doing ? (just a guess)
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2964 2014-02-11 20:00:56 <Pieh0> it meants that currently, it has suspended processing bitcoin withdrawals due to the inconsistent results reported by their bitcoind wallet
2965 2014-02-11 20:00:57 <lnovy> no, different problem
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2968 2014-02-11 20:01:12 <abrkn> muhoo: they refer to their wallet as bitcoind. i thought there was no such problem with the reference client
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2970 2014-02-11 20:01:33 <muhoo> abrkn: well one of the dumb things mtgox did was trying to blame bitcoind for their error
2971 2014-02-11 20:01:35 <maaku> Inception: no, this channel is for developers discussion and coordination. a non-stop barrage of status requests cloggs the channel and prevents people from getting work done
2972 2014-02-11 20:01:37 <Luke-Jr> lnovy: not entirely different
2973 2014-02-11 20:01:39 <lnovy> there are 2 edge cases (different from mtgox one) that needs to be solved
2974 2014-02-11 20:02:13 <mswiggs> Is there going to be any standardized word lists for Mnemonic codes?
2975 2014-02-11 20:02:16 <lnovy> Luke-Jr: on low level it might be the same, but mtgox has never given out enough info to be sure
2976 2014-02-11 20:02:21 <maaku> This is an annoying situation and I sympathize, but now that we've gotten responses out that clarify the situation, we need to get back to work on coding
2977 2014-02-11 20:02:22 <muhoo> lnovy: these? https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691
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2979 2014-02-11 20:02:35 <abrkn> ok. im trying to evaluate whether we should shut down deposits and withdraws on justcoin
2980 2014-02-11 20:02:52 <maaku> mswiggs: there is dispute over whether standardized word lists are a good thing or not (not everyone speaks English)
2981 2014-02-11 20:02:53 <c0rw1n> do you rely on txids in justcoin?
2982 2014-02-11 20:02:54 <lnovy> muhoo: that is the final solution
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2984 2014-02-11 20:03:05 <maaku> there is now a reference word list in bip-39 however
2985 2014-02-11 20:03:07 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: only if you're doing something you shouldn't be :P
2986 2014-02-11 20:03:08 <muhoo> lnovy: cool, thanks, that's the information i needed.
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2988 2014-02-11 20:03:15 <mswiggs> maaku: ok so this is left up to the client implementation to decide?
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2990 2014-02-11 20:03:41 <muhoo> abrkn: fyi, https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691, as noted above
2991 2014-02-11 20:03:46 <sneak> mswiggs maaku please see rfc2289 and "pgp word list" article on wikipedia
2992 2014-02-11 20:03:49 <jouke> Luke-Jr: like sending a lot of transactions in a short period of time?
2993 2014-02-11 20:03:51 <abrkn> Luke-Jr: we take a note of tx hashes, but we never use them. we're on bitcoind v0.8.3.0-g40809ae-beta
2994 2014-02-11 20:04:06 <jouke> your bitcoin-nodes uses them to spend change
2995 2014-02-11 20:04:20 <abrkn> Luke-Jr: and we do not care about any tx in a block that's not six deep
2996 2014-02-11 20:04:37 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2997 2014-02-11 20:04:46 <jouke> abrkn: not even your own change?
2998 2014-02-11 20:04:53 <maaku> mswiggs: correct
2999 2014-02-11 20:04:55 <abrkn> jouke: we just sendtoaddress
3000 2014-02-11 20:05:14 <jouke> abrkn: exactly
3001 2014-02-11 20:05:24 <abrkn> jouke: well, sendmany
3002 2014-02-11 20:05:27 <maaku> sneak: those aren't bitcoin standards
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3005 2014-02-11 20:05:49 <sneak> no, they're not
3006 2014-02-11 20:05:59 <sneak> but they are existing standards that exist for good reason and should be reused where appropriate
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3009 2014-02-11 20:06:12 <lechuga_> obrkn: if you are using and recording the return value of sendtoaddress for auditing purposes you may have a problem
3010 2014-02-11 20:06:24 <abrkn> lechuga: we do not use the hash for recording keeping
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3012 2014-02-11 20:06:30 <lechuga_> k
3013 2014-02-11 20:06:51 <mswiggs> sneak: thanks for that
3014 2014-02-11 20:06:52 <abrkn> should we be supplying a higher minonf to sendmany?
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3016 2014-02-11 20:06:58 <maaku> sneak: the pgp word list accomplishes a very different set of requirements
3017 2014-02-11 20:07:03 drayah__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3018 2014-02-11 20:07:22 <maaku> bip-39 intends to create compact, memorable mnemonics
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3022 2014-02-11 20:07:58 <maaku> the pgp word list merely adds much redundancy to voice communication of hashes
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3026 2014-02-11 20:08:28 <maaku> i suggest reading the latest draft of bip 39 - there's a goods description of the requirements for a word list
3027 2014-02-11 20:08:28 <lnovy> abrkn: the key here is the change amount, normally it is reused without any confirmation needed, check if it is your case
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3030 2014-02-11 20:09:16 <mswiggs> I'm just wondering how many times the word list is going to change (for english), I guess I'll use the BIP 39 wordlist.
3031 2014-02-11 20:09:47 <abrkn> i see. disabling withdraws for now, then
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3035 2014-02-11 20:10:59 <Inception> i suggest abrkn and the other exchanges to use the spendzeroconfchange patch
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3037 2014-02-11 20:11:43 <lnovy> https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin/commit/1bbca249b202c4802cc2c4d4de4a26e6392b4d92
3038 2014-02-11 20:12:38 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: why?
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3044 2014-02-11 20:14:39 <muhoo> that's a cute patch. nice.
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3066 2014-02-11 20:26:22 <abrkn> points for previty
3067 2014-02-11 20:26:23 jbitcm- has joined
3068 2014-02-11 20:26:24 <abrkn> brevity*
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3103 2014-02-11 20:37:13 <mriou> hi, I'm having an issue with a test3 net transaction, I've been checking it over and over and a SHA256 doesn't match, however the transaction has been accepted
3104 2014-02-11 20:38:03 attilah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3105 2014-02-11 20:38:05 <mriou> the tx is 99b8b9962f25e246eb0a767ed60be7e4d5a9eff74c2479db8727ad2ce4c43c68, its 2nd input references https://www.biteasy.com/testnet/transactions/639e9e6fd8f1b03ccbe9302f2a74fa523fd2b2ea4cc1d7f94ab8205aae88208e
3106 2014-02-11 20:38:13 skinnkavaj has joined
3107 2014-02-11 20:38:57 <mriou> the SHA256 there runs is supposed to return f531f3041d3136701ea09067c53e7159c8f9b2746a56c3d82966c54bbc553226 but that's not what the actual SHA256 of the input is
3108 2014-02-11 20:39:05 <mriou> I've checked it over and over and over
3109 2014-02-11 20:39:27 drayah has joined
3110 2014-02-11 20:39:33 <mriou> anyone would know if this transaction has been accepted even though it was invalidated because of a bug or something?
3111 2014-02-11 20:40:05 drayah_ has joined
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3113 2014-02-11 20:40:28 <mriou> sorry for all the hex pasted but I thought you might want to check
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3125 2014-02-11 20:45:18 <Luke-Jr> mriou: what?
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3127 2014-02-11 20:45:31 <Luke-Jr> mriou: what exactly are you hashing?
3128 2014-02-11 20:45:38 shovel_boss has joined
3129 2014-02-11 20:45:42 funky has joined
3130 2014-02-11 20:45:44 <shovel_boss> who is satoshi nakamoto?
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3132 2014-02-11 20:45:59 <mriou> the input sig of the transaction
3133 2014-02-11 20:46:01 <Apocalyptic> shovel_boss, trolling is in #bitcoin thanks
3134 2014-02-11 20:46:07 <aynstein> u r
3135 2014-02-11 20:46:07 <aynstein> go away
3136 2014-02-11 20:46:17 <mriou> the script has a SHA256 operation as part of it
3137 2014-02-11 20:46:30 <Luke-Jr> …
3138 2014-02-11 20:46:33 <mriou> the output here: https://www.biteasy.com/testnet/transactions/639e9e6fd8f1b03ccbe9302f2a74fa523fd2b2ea4cc1d7f94ab8205aae88208e
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3141 2014-02-11 20:46:52 <mriou> does a sha256 on the first part of the 2nd input here:
3142 2014-02-11 20:46:54 <mriou> https://www.biteasy.com/testnet/transactions/99b8b9962f25e246eb0a767ed60be7e4d5a9eff74c2479db8727ad2ce4c43c68
3143 2014-02-11 20:47:05 <mriou> sha256 doesn't match what's expected
3144 2014-02-11 20:47:22 <mriou> transaction isn't validated
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3146 2014-02-11 20:47:45 <mriou> and it really does look like it's not valid so I'm wondering how it made it in the test3 chain
3147 2014-02-11 20:48:06 alex_fun has joined
3148 2014-02-11 20:48:22 <maaku> mriou: single-sha256 or double-sha256?
3149 2014-02-11 20:48:30 alex_fun is now known as Guest7406
3150 2014-02-11 20:48:52 <mriou> single
3151 2014-02-11 20:49:01 <mriou> SIZE [20] [22] WITHIN VERIFY SHA256
3152 2014-02-11 20:49:03 <mriou> etc...
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3155 2014-02-11 20:49:25 <mriou> that last guy here in the script is a single SHA256, aka opcode 0xa8
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3160 2014-02-11 20:49:54 <maaku> yes i was just making sure that was what you were expecting
3161 2014-02-11 20:49:55 <alex_fun>  satoshi is the guy who made dogecoin I guess shovel_boss
3162 2014-02-11 20:49:57 <alex_fun> ;)
3163 2014-02-11 20:50:05 <maaku> and you've check that you're deserializing the stack value correctly?
3164 2014-02-11 20:50:39 <maaku> actually n/m
3165 2014-02-11 20:50:44 <maaku> nothing complicated there
3166 2014-02-11 20:50:50 <shovel_boss> alex_fun, ohh right
3167 2014-02-11 20:50:56 <shovel_boss> thats why they count in satoshis
3168 2014-02-11 20:50:57 <shovel_boss> i see
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3173 2014-02-11 20:52:39 <mriou> maaku: right
3174 2014-02-11 20:53:25 <mriou> maaku: and if you check that whole script, it even ends with a CHECKSIG but at that point the equalverify consumed the 2 last elements on the stack
3175 2014-02-11 20:53:30 drayah___ has joined
3176 2014-02-11 20:53:38 <mriou> so the CHECKSIG with only one stack element should also have failed
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3181 2014-02-11 20:54:30 <maaku> mriou: yeah I get 0x7d4d98...
3182 2014-02-11 20:54:34 <maaku> is that what you get?
3183 2014-02-11 20:55:03 <mriou> maaku: for the SHA256?
3184 2014-02-11 20:55:08 <maaku> yes
3185 2014-02-11 20:55:27 <mriou> it's run on 3045022100d3c77597af64cb514ec3a3b49c2838922863a910cd7751a8f4dc0b190324c598022011a4155e7e11873dc668c7e9a568f910586f8435d5d69e11273d4555a17a7f1c01
3186 2014-02-11 20:55:36 <mriou> I get c2a351d3983766bd7d924ebfae2840ad2650fdb48930d6a61d24912815984d7d
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3194 2014-02-11 20:58:01 <maaku> mriou: shouldn't it be hashing the 2nd item in the scriptSig
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3197 2014-02-11 20:58:30 <mriou> maaku the 2nd item has been consumed when doing the SIZE, the first operation on the script
3198 2014-02-11 20:58:56 <mriou> doh
3199 2014-02-11 20:59:19 <mriou> that's where the issue is! OP_SIZE keeps the original value in the stack, I was consuming it
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3203 2014-02-11 21:00:15 <mriou> maaku: sorry about that, thanks a lot for looking at me, it always helps realizing your stupid mistakes
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3208 2014-02-11 21:01:30 <maaku> np
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3242 2014-02-11 21:08:15 <jgarzik> 2014-02-11 21:04:42 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: non-canonical-push
3243 2014-02-11 21:08:16 <jgarzik> 2014-02-11 21:05:23 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: non-canonical-push
3244 2014-02-11 21:08:16 <jgarzik> 2014-02-11 21:07:02 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: non-canonical-push
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3278 2014-02-11 21:19:43 <ArthurB> so is it true that the reference client gets stuck in a confused state if change transaction are massaged?
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3282 2014-02-11 21:20:25 <maaku> ArthurB: massaged?
3283 2014-02-11 21:20:38 <ArthurB> malleated if you will
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3286 2014-02-11 21:21:03 <maaku> you can't change any part of the change of a transaction
3287 2014-02-11 21:21:11 <maaku> malleability affects inputs, not outputs
3288 2014-02-11 21:21:31 <ArthurB> yes I know that
3289 2014-02-11 21:21:36 <ArthurB> the
3290 2014-02-11 21:21:42 <shovel_boss> can i get unbanned at #bitcoin
3291 2014-02-11 21:22:00 <petertodd> shovel_boss: no but you can get banned here
3292 2014-02-11 21:22:01 hazek has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3293 2014-02-11 21:22:01 <shovel_boss> i got banned for saying the word doge
3294 2014-02-11 21:22:20 <ArthurB>  question is whether the reference client treats change outputs as spendable immediately
3295 2014-02-11 21:22:31 riplin has joined
3296 2014-02-11 21:22:31 <shovel_boss> bitcoin is dogphobic
3297 2014-02-11 21:22:37 <maaku> ArthurB: no, but there's a patch floating around for that
3298 2014-02-11 21:22:39 <lnovy> yes it does
3299 2014-02-11 21:22:57 <maaku> ArthurB: https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin/commit/1bbca249b202c4802cc2c4d4de4a26e6392b4d92
3300 2014-02-11 21:23:25 <ArthurB> OK so say it does that, it's   problematic but the system still ought to converge after a while
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3302 2014-02-11 21:23:32 <roybadami> Hey, looks like "malleated" is actually a word - according to Wiktionary it means "beaten with a hammer" :-)
3303 2014-02-11 21:23:39 <ArthurB> I'm reading claims that it doesn't
3304 2014-02-11 21:23:43 kantlivelong has left ()
3305 2014-02-11 21:23:45 <maaku> roybadami: appropriate
3306 2014-02-11 21:24:01 <maaku> ArthurB: the reference client does not spend change inputs until they are confirmed
3307 2014-02-11 21:24:06 <ArthurB> I.e. that the client becomes irreversibly confused about the balance
3308 2014-02-11 21:24:11 <maaku> *change outputs
3309 2014-02-11 21:24:22 <ArthurB> if so that's a separate bug in itself
3310 2014-02-11 21:24:23 <lnovy> maaku: except for the change
3311 2014-02-11 21:24:41 <maaku> lnovy: what are you talking about?
3312 2014-02-11 21:24:48 sacrelege has joined
3313 2014-02-11 21:24:50 <lnovy> ok, I need to get some sleep now
3314 2014-02-11 21:25:04 <helo> ArthurB: you can always fix your balance with a (backup first) and then starting with -salvagewallet
3315 2014-02-11 21:25:07 <lnovy> i'm answering to different questions than asked
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3317 2014-02-11 21:25:25 <maaku> ArthurB: it's not a bug. spending zero-conf change makes transactions interdependent - that's not something that's safe in general
3318 2014-02-11 21:25:26 <ArthurB> helo, right of course, but still
3319 2014-02-11 21:26:01 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3320 2014-02-11 21:26:01 <ArthurB> maaku: I realize that, but the client could gracefully realize after 6 blocks that it was confused and get the balance right
3321 2014-02-11 21:26:26 <maaku> ArthurB: i'm not seeing the connection ...
3322 2014-02-11 21:26:41 <maaku> what does spendability of zero conf change outputs have to do with 'balances'?
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3324 2014-02-11 21:27:07 <ArthurB> well it seems that in the reference client
3325 2014-02-11 21:27:19 <ArthurB> the spending of zero conf change
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3328 2014-02-11 21:27:39 <ArthurB> breaks get balance, *permanently*
3329 2014-02-11 21:27:46 Contex has joined
3330 2014-02-11 21:27:51 AriseChikun has joined
3331 2014-02-11 21:27:53 <roybadami> I thought the whole problem here is that the reference client *does* spend unconfirmed change (if no other outputs are available) ??
3332 2014-02-11 21:28:47 foamz has joined
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3334 2014-02-11 21:28:52 <ArthurB> So say you spend unconfirmed change and that transaction gets malleated
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3336 2014-02-11 21:29:10 <maaku> ArthurB: looking at the patch, I was confused - the client does spend zero-conf change now, but only if no other confirmed outputs are available
3337 2014-02-11 21:29:16 <maaku> the patch optionally disables that
3338 2014-02-11 21:29:36 <ArthurB> still
3339 2014-02-11 21:29:37 <roybadami> And then the wallet code gets confused about the wallet balance.... probably it accounts both the TX it sent and the malleated TX that it sees
3340 2014-02-11 21:29:44 <lnovy> it is relevant for high frequency wallets
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3343 2014-02-11 21:30:01 <ArthurB> yes but why does it get  * permanently * confused
3344 2014-02-11 21:30:13 acidmelt has joined
3345 2014-02-11 21:30:13 <ArthurB> that's a separate issue
3346 2014-02-11 21:30:15 <maaku> ArthurB: but regarding balances, it's a wallet/user-display issue that is quite separate
3347 2014-02-11 21:30:16 <roybadami> Also there is a suggestion that bad things happen on block reorgs
3348 2014-02-11 21:30:41 <lnovy> because if you daisy-chain transaction with unconfirmed change and the first is mallated, your coins are stuck
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3353 2014-02-11 21:33:01 <maaku> so i'm testing out a normative transaction ID format, whereby the SIGHASH_ALL hash is encoded in an error-correcting base32 code
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3356 2014-02-11 21:33:34 <maaku> e.g. ca978112ca1bbdcafac231b39a23dc4da786eff8147c4e72b9807785afee48bb becomes X95X14J6-5CQQK5GB-TQ646PSS-2HQ3SM6K-PW1VXZ1M-R7JKKJSY-TS0RX1DX-F79MV3JW
3357 2014-02-11 21:34:33 roidster has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3358 2014-02-11 21:34:35 <maaku> being normative (only covering signed info), case-insensitive, broken into groups, and with error correction codes should solve most problems
3359 2014-02-11 21:34:39 * lianj eyes bleeding
3360 2014-02-11 21:35:09 <petertodd> maaku: I'd recommend you apply your talents to a payment protocol...
3361 2014-02-11 21:35:16 <maaku> lianj: 256-bit hashes are ugly no matter how you encode them...
3362 2014-02-11 21:35:34 <lianj> why encode them at all? other than hex
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3365 2014-02-11 21:36:08 <maaku> lianj: succintness
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3368 2014-02-11 21:36:29 <petertodd> maaku: besides, assuming that there even is a canonical txid - mutability aside - isn't a great idea given things like replace-by-fee, or combining multiple payments together opportunisticly, or coinjoin or...
3369 2014-02-11 21:36:49 <petertodd> maaku: what matters is "was a txout created that the user wanted?"
3370 2014-02-11 21:37:14 <petertodd> maaku: we already have that infrastructure
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3372 2014-02-11 21:38:15 <maaku> petertodd: this is just to solve one particular pain point that people are having trouble with - having a (relatively) succinct hash shared by mutated transactions
3373 2014-02-11 21:38:30 <petertodd> maaku: I know, and I'm saying you're solving the wrong problem
3374 2014-02-11 21:38:34 nirom has joined
3375 2014-02-11 21:39:00 <maaku> petertodd: i'm making the world incrementally better. i'm not making it perfect
3376 2014-02-11 21:39:17 dignork has joined
3377 2014-02-11 21:39:31 <petertodd> maaku: no, you're making the world incrementally worse by baking in assumptions about how you are going to get paid that don't need to be made
3378 2014-02-11 21:39:47 <maaku> having a simple normative transaction id is non-intrusive change to these people's infrastructure
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3381 2014-02-11 21:40:18 <maaku> pragmatic realities win
3382 2014-02-11 21:40:25 <petertodd> maaku: assuming a txid needs to be normative is a step down the wrong path
3383 2014-02-11 21:40:26 rivaler has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3385 2014-02-11 21:40:47 <petertodd> maaku: and the pragmatic reality of "well, did you get a payment for some amount at som address?" matches what users actually want to know
3386 2014-02-11 21:40:51 <maaku> lianj: i also think it is important that any proposal for a normative ID is visually distinct from regular transaction hashes
3387 2014-02-11 21:41:15 <petertodd> maaku: never mind all that complexity will be gone with payment protocols and this will just be yet more baggage
3388 2014-02-11 21:41:36 <maaku> petertodd: i disagree, but i haven't the time to debate it here
3389 2014-02-11 21:42:15 <petertodd> maaku: you'd be wise to spend more time debating than writing ill-thought-out code, you do it a lot
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3392 2014-02-11 21:43:43 <maaku> petertodd: this solves real problems right now, in a way that is non-intrusive to people's already built infrastructure, and which can be deployed immediately
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3394 2014-02-11 21:44:02 <ArthurB> I still don't understand why the client wouldn't recover from making a transaction that does not become part of the blockchain
3395 2014-02-11 21:44:14 <petertodd> maaku: no it can't - deployment requires co-ordination of multiple different wallets to be at all useful. just using addresses:values can be done right now without changing a line of code
3396 2014-02-11 21:44:15 <maaku> this is not the time to be making academic arguments about "if only bitcoin infrastructure was rewritten from the ground up.."
3397 2014-02-11 21:44:25 <petertodd> maaku: you're the one writing new code here :)
3398 2014-02-11 21:44:31 phantomspark has joined
3399 2014-02-11 21:44:40 <petertodd> maaku: this came about from a customer service problem after all
3400 2014-02-11 21:44:45 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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3403 2014-02-11 21:45:23 <maaku> petertodd: and my proposed fix is constrained to solving just customer service problems
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3407 2014-02-11 21:45:40 <ArthurB> regarding  malleability BTW, do not assume that the signature itself isn't malleable
3408 2014-02-11 21:45:50 <roybadami> But a merchant can use any internal (non-maleable) reference they choose for a transaction....  There is no benefit in having an interchange format for such ids, since they will never leave their system
3409 2014-02-11 21:45:56 <maaku> ArthurB: that's why you only cover the signed data for a normative id
3410 2014-02-11 21:46:04 Namworld has joined
3411 2014-02-11 21:46:07 <petertodd> maaku: so name the end-user-facing problem this is going to solve, because that's when you need to dick around with encoding formats
3412 2014-02-11 21:46:26 <petertodd> maaku: hell, you haven't even explaned why error-correcting actually helps here
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3416 2014-02-11 21:46:51 <maaku> petertodd: customer service over the phone
3417 2014-02-11 21:47:02 <money> so is this malleability an actuall bug? can someone use this to withdraw a lot of btc from an exchange?
3418 2014-02-11 21:47:04 jakov has joined
3419 2014-02-11 21:47:11 <roybadami> But the user won't know anthing about these ID's unless all wallets are upgraded
3420 2014-02-11 21:47:16 <maaku> and/or typing out transaction ids in web forms
3421 2014-02-11 21:47:18 <petertodd> maaku: ok, so you're back to customer service, in which case address:value alreayd works
3422 2014-02-11 21:47:19 <lnovy> money: happend with mtgox :)
3423 2014-02-11 21:47:28 <Luke-Jr> money: no. #bitcoin, not here
3424 2014-02-11 21:47:30 Delerium has joined
3425 2014-02-11 21:47:39 <petertodd> maaku: since when do people type this shit out? b: when they do, it's bc.i which can easily do partial match queries...
3426 2014-02-11 21:47:46 <maaku> petertodd: no, it doesn't, not with address reuse (again, real life concerns...)
3427 2014-02-11 21:47:50 he1kki has joined
3428 2014-02-11 21:48:15 <petertodd> maaku: please, you need to have two, simultaneous, transactions with the same value at the same time for that to be a real issue
3429 2014-02-11 21:48:21 <maaku> roybadami: no, anyone who updates *their* wallet can query these ids
3430 2014-02-11 21:48:22 neddyf has joined
3431 2014-02-11 21:48:28 <maaku> you don't need "all" wallets to upgrade
3432 2014-02-11 21:48:30 <starsoccer> sigh so transaction malebility has gone from being a known issue to now a wide scale problem thanks to mtgox
3433 2014-02-11 21:48:34 <money> but how does the attacker get the txid and how does he change it? does he get it from the exchange? and rushes to coinbase? i dunno.
3434 2014-02-11 21:48:52 skarloey has joined
3435 2014-02-11 21:48:58 <starsoccer> i wouldnt be surprised if mtgox is the one making all the transactions ID change to prove a point
3436 2014-02-11 21:49:09 <money> are you building a standard wallet?
3437 2014-02-11 21:49:10 <petertodd> maaku: more to the point, even that scenario has nothing to do with whether or not the sender can verify funds got sent correctly
3438 2014-02-11 21:49:20 <Luke-Jr> money: this is the development channel, not the channel for clueless chatter
3439 2014-02-11 21:49:26 * maaku closes IRC and goes back to writing code
3440 2014-02-11 21:49:31 <petertodd> maaku: walk through the use-cases and you'll see...
3441 2014-02-11 21:49:45 <money> Luke-Jr: well I'm trying to get development help here.
3442 2014-02-11 21:49:45 <petertodd> ^ and that's why engineers get made fun of...
3443 2014-02-11 21:50:07 <Luke-Jr> money: your questions are not related to development.
3444 2014-02-11 21:50:16 <money> are the devs writting a standard wallet?
3445 2014-02-11 21:50:30 <money> Luke-Jr: well how so???
3446 2014-02-11 21:50:31 wildekek has joined
3447 2014-02-11 21:50:42 <petertodd> and hell, even worse, programmers. it's a pity the failure of top-down-design processes as applied to software have blinded people from the value of planning for basically any other process...
3448 2014-02-11 21:50:57 MaxSan has joined
3449 2014-02-11 21:51:16 Hrumph has joined
3450 2014-02-11 21:51:23 <Hrumph> hi
3451 2014-02-11 21:51:29 <Hrumph> its time for the bitcoin devs to reprioritise
3452 2014-02-11 21:51:32 <upb> there is no value in planning anything, AGILE++ FTW
3453 2014-02-11 21:51:38 * Luke-Jr wonders if we need to set the channel +i temporarily
3454 2014-02-11 21:51:48 <pera> Luke-Jr: yes
3455 2014-02-11 21:51:50 <Hrumph> you need to make a universally deployable wallet useable by everyone in cluding exchanges
3456 2014-02-11 21:51:57 <BB-Martino> I'm pretty sure it's priority already @ Hrumph
3457 2014-02-11 21:52:04 <napedia> Luke-Jr yes
3458 2014-02-11 21:52:07 <BB-Martino> oh that.
3459 2014-02-11 21:52:09 <BB-Martino> nvm
3460 2014-02-11 21:52:15 <Hrumph> custome exchange wallets are going to be the ruin of the bitcoin economy
3461 2014-02-11 21:52:16 <lnovy> Luke-Jr: put me in on the list if you do so please :)
3462 2014-02-11 21:52:17 <Inception> Hrumph, +1
3463 2014-02-11 21:52:21 <Luke-Jr> Hrumph: are you paying us?
3464 2014-02-11 21:52:30 <Inception> Luke-Jr: we can pay you
3465 2014-02-11 21:52:33 <Hrumph> Luke-Jr: i can't now after losing so much due to this crap
3466 2014-02-11 21:52:39 <Luke-Jr> Inception: not the point :P
3467 2014-02-11 21:52:45 <abrkn> Inception: +1
3468 2014-02-11 21:53:24 <money> what does all these +1 have to do with development, but are the devs planning to work on a standard bitcoin wallet?
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3475 2014-02-11 21:55:34 <gmaxwell> Please keep this channel free of noise. It should be used for working discussion by bitcoin infrastructure developers. Take your speculation and random complaints to #bitcoin.
3476 2014-02-11 21:55:34 crazy987 has joined
3477 2014-02-11 21:56:22 <gmaxwell> If you are not a bitcoin developer, pool operator, major service provider, or a user with a concrete and actionable proble (primary tech support is #bitcoin though) please avoid commenting unless you are sure you have something useful to contribute.
3478 2014-02-11 21:56:29 Burrito has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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3480 2014-02-11 21:56:35 <gmaxwell> I will re-moderate if the noise keeps up
3481 2014-02-11 21:56:43 <goodbtc> but ... some wre kicked out of #bitcoin due ... off-topic :P
3482 2014-02-11 21:56:43 wsirc_9586 has joined
3483 2014-02-11 21:56:49 Burrito has joined
3484 2014-02-11 21:56:50 <lnovy> :)
3485 2014-02-11 21:56:53 <uiop> (resending) before we go +i, i'd like to add that any exchange relying on bitcoind for its correct operation would be well served by funding bitcoind development with a small portion of their large trading fee profits
3486 2014-02-11 21:57:26 <Inception> uiop: we can fund the bitcoin project regarding this issue. i represent an exchange. not a major one, but a successful one.
3487 2014-02-11 21:57:35 <davout> uiop: you seem to be vastly underestimating the cost of running an exchange
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3489 2014-02-11 21:58:04 wsirc_9586 has joined
3490 2014-02-11 21:58:21 <Luke-Jr> davout: part of the cost of running an exchange, is maintaining software for it
3491 2014-02-11 21:58:56 <Luke-Jr> davout: demanding people you aren't paying, to maintain software for you, is not reasonable.
3492 2014-02-11 21:59:08 <Luke-Jr> but that's also off-topic here, so #bitcoin for futhrer
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3494 2014-02-11 21:59:17 AndChat has joined
3495 2014-02-11 21:59:18 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: +1
3496 2014-02-11 21:59:21 wsirc_9586 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3497 2014-02-11 21:59:26 <uiop> davout: nonzero profit ==> nozero n% of profit. put another way, weigh the cost against hiring a programmer capable of writing the custom code you need.
3498 2014-02-11 21:59:27 <davec> hey guys - I noticed with the "new" (I know it's been around on master for a few months) reject message is sent all over without actually checking the negotiated protocol version.  Shouldn't it only be sending a message which didn't exist until pver 70002 if the negotiated version is at least that level?
3499 2014-02-11 21:59:29 wsirc_9586 has joined
3500 2014-02-11 22:00:17 <davout> Luke-Jr: this makes exactly zero sense, the way FOSS works is that you scratch your own itch, and I happen to not itch thank you very much
3501 2014-02-11 22:00:20 <Luke-Jr> davec: all protocol versions have all unknown commands as "ignored" by definition
3502 2014-02-11 22:00:35 <Luke-Jr> davout: if you don't itch, it's a non-issue in the first place
3503 2014-02-11 22:01:02 emptyGox has joined
3504 2014-02-11 22:01:09 <uiop> Inception: i'm not knowledgeable about exactly how funding would work in this situation, but i encourage you to blaze the trail :)
3505 2014-02-11 22:01:26 <davec> Luke-Jr: ok thanks for the clarification
3506 2014-02-11 22:02:15 <wumpus> davout: well if you see how Linux gets developed it's mostly people in companies (such as IBM and Intel and Redhat) that contribute, we hardly see that in bitcoin right now
3507 2014-02-11 22:02:30 * midnightmagic golfclap for oncoming +m
3508 2014-02-11 22:02:52 attilah has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3509 2014-02-11 22:03:01 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: I'm not +ming it again now, but I voiced people so it would be minimally disruptive to do so.
3510 2014-02-11 22:03:02 * uiop says please
3511 2014-02-11 22:03:02 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3512 2014-02-11 22:03:17 <midnightmagic> o7
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3514 2014-02-11 22:03:26 <Apocalyptic> sounds reasonable
3515 2014-02-11 22:03:32 <hammond> bitcoin sucks, putting +V doesn't hide the facts it's compleetly bugged to hell and people are being hacked from their monies.
3516 2014-02-11 22:03:48 <Bisbee> wrong channel hammond
3517 2014-02-11 22:03:49 <gmaxwell> hammond: #bitcoin please
3518 2014-02-11 22:03:51 <davout> uiop: it might make much more sense to hire your own developer and not share the improvement back if it helps your competition too
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3520 2014-02-11 22:04:01 <lechuga_> must be a full moon
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3522 2014-02-11 22:04:10 <davout> but like you said it's all about a cost/benefit balance
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3524 2014-02-11 22:05:06 <davout> wumpus: yes we do, I kindly remind you that gox paid 10k BTC to the foundation, that seems to be going to funding development of the client
3525 2014-02-11 22:05:17 <uiop> davout: this is true, and the same tradeoff that exists with linux. by not contributing back you need to shoulder the ongoing maintenance burden. this can easily become unbearable quickly if your profit margin is small enough
3526 2014-02-11 22:05:50 <wumpus> davout: well contributing back and helping the entire ecosystem can have advantages as well, if anything because you don't need to maintain a large patchset on top
3527 2014-02-11 22:06:06 <wumpus> davout: I mean directly, not indirectly
3528 2014-02-11 22:06:25 <davout> uiop wumpus yes, contributing back has advantages, ofc
3529 2014-02-11 22:06:59 <davout> incidentally that's how gox burnt itself, by having their own private implementation that did not benefit from the work of the community
3530 2014-02-11 22:07:02 <wumpus> davout: I'm not sure why you would want to encourage people to be egoistic and not contribute back, but whatever floats your boat
3531 2014-02-11 22:07:03 <Hans-Martin> are there short-term plans on releasing client code that is
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3533 2014-02-11 22:07:24 <wumpus> davout: right
3534 2014-02-11 22:07:40 <gmaxwell> Hans-Martin: that is ???????  (oh the torture)
3535 2014-02-11 22:07:40 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3536 2014-02-11 22:07:56 <Hans-Martin> ...less vulnerable to the current kind of attack? (i.e. that would check scripts for weird opcodes)
3537 2014-02-11 22:07:57 <uiop> heh
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3539 2014-02-11 22:08:05 <Hans-Martin> sorry, hit return accidentally
3540 2014-02-11 22:08:11 <wumpus> weird opcodes even, woohoo
3541 2014-02-11 22:08:16 <wumpus> beeewaare
3542 2014-02-11 22:08:16 <Apocalyptic> afaik it has nothing to do with opcodes
3543 2014-02-11 22:08:23 <davout> wumpus: well, if you make some "pro" feature that is really useful and saves you tons of time it might not make sense to share it back for your competition to use, but again it's a thin line, it backfired in a spectacular way for gox
3544 2014-02-11 22:08:29 Doug_ has joined
3545 2014-02-11 22:08:42 <gmaxwell> "spooke opcodes"  ... but Hans-Martin do you mean whatever jerk is flooding the network with the pushdata mutants?
3546 2014-02-11 22:08:45 <foamz> im not sure if there really is a way to "fix" transaction malleability
3547 2014-02-11 22:08:48 <Hans-Martin> yup
3548 2014-02-11 22:08:59 <jakov> if the feature is that good your competitors will presumably code it up too
3549 2014-02-11 22:09:05 esse- has joined
3550 2014-02-11 22:09:06 <Luke-Jr> foamz: probably not; certainly would take years
3551 2014-02-11 22:09:10 <jakov> especially if you poach each other's employees
3552 2014-02-11 22:09:13 rivaler has joined
3553 2014-02-11 22:09:23 <gmaxwell> Hans-Martin: I merged a change written back in Sept 2013 that blocks those an hour or so ago.
3554 2014-02-11 22:09:51 <Billdr> Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to get my VM going before I leave in a few minutes... The other day I was told you're always looking for testers. Is there a particular OS I should spin up or do you just want as many eyes doing as many things as possible?
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3556 2014-02-11 22:10:09 <davout> jakov: but they'll reduce their margins by investing resources in it, bottom line is that you don't want necessarily want to help your competition
3557 2014-02-11 22:10:16 <Hans-Martin> gmaxwell: I fear that other no-op opcode tricks might be used when that change becomes effective, or do you protect against those, too?
3558 2014-02-11 22:10:27 <gmaxwell> Hans-Martin: for years.
3559 2014-02-11 22:10:36 <davout> if i had an itch to scratch it'd be AMQP integration
3560 2014-02-11 22:10:55 <Hans-Martin> gmaxwell: good to hear!
3561 2014-02-11 22:11:03 <gmaxwell> Billdr: we get the least testing on windows and osx.
3562 2014-02-11 22:11:15 <andytoshi> Billdr: there are also one or two people who come on periodically asking about openbsd. you could show them some love ;)
3563 2014-02-11 22:11:16 <wumpus> davout: there's someone that did zmq integration
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3565 2014-02-11 22:11:38 <davout> wumpus: in some fork i think, iirc genjix did it
3566 2014-02-11 22:11:42 <foamz> what are you blocking gmaxwell?
3567 2014-02-11 22:11:44 <foamz> non standard sigs?
3568 2014-02-11 22:11:44 <midnightmagic> I have what appears to be a functional netbsd bitcoind running.
3569 2014-02-11 22:12:04 <Billdr> Well windows is easy enough for me. I probably don't have time to do *every* version. 7 and 8 (not RT) useful enough?
3570 2014-02-11 22:12:04 <wumpus> davout: even a pull, but there wasn't enough interest in testing/maintaining it and the pull withered over time
3571 2014-02-11 22:12:19 <davout> gmaxwell: i built 0.9rc on osx and it runs perfectly fine, stable and all
3572 2014-02-11 22:12:38 <Billdr> Also, is there a task list? I didn't see anything on github.
3573 2014-02-11 22:12:57 <midnightmagic> sadly my netbsd 6.x-inside-kvm eats itself after a while so running in there isn't an option.
3574 2014-02-11 22:13:01 <wumpus> Billdr: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues?direction=desc&sort=created&state=open
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3578 2014-02-11 22:13:44 <jcorgan> wumpus: i have been looking at resurrecting the zmq patch, however, it looks like 'fredan' has created a repo for it to exist as a patch
3579 2014-02-11 22:13:56 <gmaxwell> The advice I give to new contributors goes like:  Test things and report bugs, start reviewing pulls, submit test cases, and add improvements in areas that you understand to solve problems that you care about.
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3582 2014-02-11 22:14:34 <wumpus> jcorgan: I'm also interested in resurrecting it, but only after modularity changes to bitcoind
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3584 2014-02-11 22:14:53 <uiop> jcorgan: zeromq?
3585 2014-02-11 22:15:07 * uiop recently loves zeromq
3586 2014-02-11 22:15:28 * Luke-Jr wasn't too impressed with zeromq, but whatever works works
3587 2014-02-11 22:15:30 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes, good advice
3588 2014-02-11 22:16:01 <Billdr> Alright. I'll keep watching the issues emails and I'll review https://github.com/bitcoin/QA/blob/master/TestPlanExecution.md (not sure how I missed that before). Thanks.
3589 2014-02-11 22:16:10 <wumpus> gmaxwell: especially more people reviewing changes would be useful
3590 2014-02-11 22:16:42 <jcorgan> wumpus: yes, i saw your note about the modularization stuff for 1.0
3591 2014-02-11 22:16:55 <uiop> Luke-Jr: at first it looks like frivolous C++ masturbation.. but then, you're like "oh wow, this is super useful and easy"
3592 2014-02-11 22:17:02 <davout> uiop jcorgan i'm using rabbitmq in production, not sure how it overlaps with zmq
3593 2014-02-11 22:17:13 <gmaxwell> wumpus: It also is a great way to learn about more of the software.
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3595 2014-02-11 22:17:37 <gmaxwell> and a little more directed than just reading the whole thing yourself for the sake of reading it.
3596 2014-02-11 22:17:47 <jcorgan> for a personal use case i'm going to create a zeromq pub port for relaying transactions and blocks
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3598 2014-02-11 22:18:33 <uiop> jcorgan: that would sweet
3599 2014-02-11 22:18:35 <jcorgan> but agree that there is a much bigger case to be made for zeromq to act as a bus between more independent modules in the 1.0+ timeframe
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3602 2014-02-11 22:18:56 <Luke-Jr> davout: I'd like to respond to something you said earlier, but you're not in #bitcoin :<
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3605 2014-02-11 22:19:53 <uiop> you (one) could also make a (zmq-PUB -> websocket) bridge and webprogrammers would swoon
3606 2014-02-11 22:19:58 <wumpus> jcorgan: the intention is not to make zeromq a fixed part of bitcoind, but rather just one of the possible interfaces (like JSON RPC, websocket, etc...)
3607 2014-02-11 22:20:00 <jcorgan> zeromq is a little versiony though, with concurrent 2.x, 3.x, and I guess now 4.x versions spanning common distributions
3608 2014-02-11 22:20:02 <xiando> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/1bbca24  any reason the default is to spend unconfirmed change? I just assumed default would be not to
3609 2014-02-11 22:20:36 <uiop> jcorgan: yeah, i just had package zmq4 for rhel6 myself
3610 2014-02-11 22:20:39 <wumpus> xiando: see #3624
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3612 2014-02-11 22:21:14 <jcorgan> wumpus: you may already know this, but zeromq would act as an excellent internal message passing bus (very lightweight in that regard) between modules, a la the actor model
3613 2014-02-11 22:21:26 <uiop> inproc://
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3618 2014-02-11 22:22:25 <jcorgan> and modules communicating this way could be on the same processor or distributed
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3621 2014-02-11 22:22:43 <jcorgan> but right now I think you guys have more important things to deal with...
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3626 2014-02-11 22:23:21 <uiop> davout: i'm not familiar with rabbitmq, but have heard of it
3627 2014-02-11 22:23:41 <xiando> wumpus: I believe you mean 3654 but thanks anyway, found it ;)
3628 2014-02-11 22:23:43 brson has joined
3629 2014-02-11 22:24:01 <upb> it doesnt overlap at all, since it's a real mq with a broker :)
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3632 2014-02-11 22:25:22 <jcorgan> yeah, zmq is really lightweight, no broken involved, more like "structured messages over sockets with simple state machines to handle different message passing semantics"
3633 2014-02-11 22:25:29 <jcorgan> broken => broker
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3635 2014-02-11 22:25:51 <upb> the zmq name is really unfortunate imo
3636 2014-02-11 22:26:17 <jcorgan> and those sockets can easily be just shared memory queues or TCP sockets without out much change in the code that uses them
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3639 2014-02-11 22:28:34 <davout> uiop: rabbitmq is pretty neat
3640 2014-02-11 22:28:56 <davout> so if i understand correctly zmp is much closer to the metal but also much lighter
3641 2014-02-11 22:29:49 <davout> my use case is that i'd like to listen to transactions as they come and handle them at app level, maybe redis pub/sub could do too
3642 2014-02-11 22:30:14 <lechuga_> and walletnotify isnt sufficient?
3643 2014-02-11 22:30:25 <davout> i used to use gavin's monitortx patch but it's not really maintained
3644 2014-02-11 22:31:03 <jcorgan> davout: yes, zmq is very close to the metal. a pub/sub queue would let you monitor incoming TXes asynchronously, and if nobody is connected to the queue, there is no overhead
3645 2014-02-11 22:31:17 <davout> lechuga_: maybe, i'd need to look into it, i'm not really familiar with the improvements since 0.5, but i don't want to have the keys in my wallet
3646 2014-02-11 22:31:49 <lechuga_> ah ok then it wouldn't work for u
3647 2014-02-11 22:32:03 <davout> the way i understand it walletnotify will tell you about TXES that are relevant to your own wallet, i manage addresses separately
3648 2014-02-11 22:32:23 <lechuga_> you dont create them with getnewaddress?
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3650 2014-02-11 22:32:42 <maaku> davout: ZMQ and AMQP do very different things ... which one is better depends on your needs (e.g. reliability, performance)
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3653 2014-02-11 22:33:23 <jcorgan> right.  i ultimately want to build a filter module external to bitcoind that would connect via zmq, bloom filter incoming TXes, then republish them on another queue
3654 2014-02-11 22:33:31 <davout> lechuga_: nah, i create them deterministically from a master public key, this way i can audit my database in realtime to check that all addresses are actually legit and not have to keep anything sensitive on my servers
3655 2014-02-11 22:33:53 <lechuga_> k
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3660 2014-02-11 22:34:21 <dexX7> assuming i have a service that creates tx and after broadcasting shows to it's users something like "check the tx, here is your txid", can i be sure that this id stays valid and if not, what's best practise in this case? no ids are used internally.
3661 2014-02-11 22:34:27 <lechuga_> what library do you use for that? out of curiosity...
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3664 2014-02-11 22:34:38 <davout> maaku: i was under the impression that AMQP is the protocol, of which ZMQ is an implementation, apparently i'm wrong here :-)
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3667 2014-02-11 22:35:16 <jcorgan> for bitcoin, there already exists https://github.com/fredan/bitcoin-zmq
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3669 2014-02-11 22:35:26 <davout> lechuga_: https://github.com/prusnak/addrgen
3670 2014-02-11 22:35:34 wsirc_9586 has joined
3671 2014-02-11 22:35:40 <jcorgan> i haven't contacted the author yet to see how fresh it is, and to me it looks a little over-engineered anyway
3672 2014-02-11 22:36:03 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: do you think you'll have time to pick commits for 0.8.7? or should I try to budget time for that?
3673 2014-02-11 22:36:08 <maaku> davout: no, ZMQ has nothing to do with AMQP (or message queing in general), except a confusing name
3674 2014-02-11 22:36:08 <davout> jcorgan: yea, simplest things are best
3675 2014-02-11 22:36:24 <davout> maaku: well, that's a success, i got confused
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3679 2014-02-11 22:36:50 <maaku> the Z in ZMQ means zero, as in zero-message-queue, as in not-a-message-queue
3680 2014-02-11 22:36:51 <maaku> horrible name
3681 2014-02-11 22:37:08 <davout> i see
3682 2014-02-11 22:37:13 <maaku> ZMQ is basically TCP/IP sockets + pub/sub and other features
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3684 2014-02-11 22:37:34 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: what kind of release would 0.8.7 be? just the workarounds for malleability abuse?
3685 2014-02-11 22:37:43 <davout> maaku: ok, so if you aren't connected the message is lost
3686 2014-02-11 22:37:47 <maaku> which, in practice, is sufficient for what many people use message queues for, and far more performant
3687 2014-02-11 22:37:49 <gmaxwell> wumpus: on the spendzeroconfchange— it's intutively correct— but did you test it?  e.g. have a wallet with nothing but unconfirmed change in it to spend and try spending?
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3689 2014-02-11 22:37:54 <maaku> but if you actually need a message queue, ZMQ is not it
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3691 2014-02-11 22:38:04 <maaku> davout: yes
3692 2014-02-11 22:38:16 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: just fixes (minimal workarounds if necessary)
3693 2014-02-11 22:38:28 <davout> maaku: the cool thing about a message queue is that you can turn parts of your infrastructure on and off and it just picks up where it left
3694 2014-02-11 22:38:28 <jcorgan> maaku: right, it is intended as a lighter weight framework, and is not restricted to tcp/ip
3695 2014-02-11 22:38:48 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I'd be scanning through all the commits to master to see what is a fix, personally
3696 2014-02-11 22:38:53 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I didn't do any such specific testing
3697 2014-02-11 22:38:54 <maaku> davout: right, and for that you need a real message queue
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3699 2014-02-11 22:39:11 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I'd like sipa's push isstandard change + spendzeroconfchange + something to unfuxor a wallet that has had its change mutated.
3700 2014-02-11 22:39:15 <gmaxwell> wumpus: okay, I'll test.
3701 2014-02-11 22:39:16 <Luke-Jr> but arguably only the malleability abuse is a major issue
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3703 2014-02-11 22:39:35 <gmaxwell> unfuxoring seems hard. :(
3704 2014-02-11 22:39:56 cheako has joined
3705 2014-02-11 22:39:59 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes that seems like the most difficult thing to get right
3706 2014-02-11 22:40:07 <Luke-Jr> warren: ping, 0.8.7 is of interest to you as well I think
3707 2014-02-11 22:40:30 <warren> Luke-Jr: I'm already testing backports.
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3710 2014-02-11 22:41:02 <helo> unfuxoring is complicated by append-only?
3711 2014-02-11 22:41:11 <gmaxwell> Also, I think we should backport the ecdsa signing change.
3712 2014-02-11 22:41:21 <warren> pr #?
3713 2014-02-11 22:41:23 <Subo1977> how is armory ffected?
3714 2014-02-11 22:41:45 <helo> Subo1977: you'll probably need to talk to their devs... see #armory
3715 2014-02-11 22:41:57 <helo> (not a channel, nm)
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3718 2014-02-11 22:42:05 <Luke-Jr> warren: ok, if I get time I'll scan over master commits for unrelated fixes that might be good in 0.8.7; otherwise, sounds like you have it covered?
3719 2014-02-11 22:42:08 <wumpus> helo: it's complicated because it's a complicated recursive search
3720 2014-02-11 22:42:13 <lnovy> Subo1977: i've heard it just crashes gracefully when mutated transaction comes in, but I've not tested :)
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3724 2014-02-11 22:42:33 <warren> Luke-Jr: please do scan
3725 2014-02-11 22:42:38 <warren> i'm getting food
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3727 2014-02-11 22:43:21 <wumpus> Subo1977: AFAIK armory is not affected because it only regards confirmed transactions
3728 2014-02-11 22:43:52 <Subo1977> ah ok
3729 2014-02-11 22:43:54 <muhoo> electrum?
3730 2014-02-11 22:44:14 <gmaxwell> warren: it's e0e14e43d9586409e42919f6cb955540134cda2a  but that is on top of a81cd96805ce6b65cca3a40ebbd3b2eb428abb7b so cherry picking it might be hard.
3731 2014-02-11 22:44:18 <lnovy> Subo1977: https://twitter.com/TheBitcoinimist/status/433278864228237312
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3733 2014-02-11 22:45:19 <BB-Martino> quick question, probably answered before, sorry... Will bitcoind prefer confirmed coins over unconfirmed when selecting inputs?
3734 2014-02-11 22:45:41 <wumpus> BB-Martino: yes, it has always preferred confirmed coins
3735 2014-02-11 22:45:45 <lnovy> BB-Martino: of course, selecting those with 6 and more
3736 2014-02-11 22:46:10 <Luke-Jr> 6+ confirms, 1+ confirms, 0+ confirms (change only)
3737 2014-02-11 22:46:20 <Luke-Jr> in that order
3738 2014-02-11 22:46:31 <gmaxwell> lnovy: not just 6, it prefers >=6 to >0 to it's own 0 confirmed change.  and it will never spend an unconfirmed coin from a third party.
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3744 2014-02-11 22:47:06 <lnovy> gmaxwell: Luke-Jr answered this completly, I didn't
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3746 2014-02-11 22:47:12 <BB-Martino> Thank you.
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3759 2014-02-11 22:56:04 <uiop> davout: (ok, so if you aren't connected the message is lost): for PUB sockets send(..) w/ no connected SUB's discards the msg, but for PUSH sockets send(..) blocks waiting f/ >1 connected PULL socket. there are 10-ish socket types, and they differ in what subset of {send,recv} are implemented and blocking/discarding/round-robin/etc behavior
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3763 2014-02-11 22:57:16 <davout> uiop: so not fire and forget
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3765 2014-02-11 22:57:20 coiners has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3766 2014-02-11 22:57:47 <uiop> davout: depending on the type of socket you create, yes or no
3767 2014-02-11 22:58:24 <uiop> which is the nice part, you choose the socket types to match your requirements
3768 2014-02-11 22:58:37 <davout> uiop: yea i see, you can have F&F if you're ok with the message being lost if there are no connections on the other side
3769 2014-02-11 22:58:55 <jcorgan> also, you can build up a broker if you want, that can store, queue, and forward messages if you want, etc., but that is a layer above what zmq does
3770 2014-02-11 22:58:56 <uiop> oh, right. yes PUB is F&F
3771 2014-02-11 22:58:59 jborkl has quit (Quit: jborkl)
3772 2014-02-11 22:59:01 <davout> uiop: the socket type being chosen at random would be a little impractical :-)
3773 2014-02-11 22:59:04 LeapingLennie has joined
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3776 2014-02-11 23:01:31 <muhoo> more verbose: is electrum effected by the malleability bug/ddos too?
3777 2014-02-11 23:02:16 <uiop> davout: zmq_socket(3): http://api.zeromq.org/4-0:zmq-socket
3778 2014-02-11 23:03:19 <jcorgan> if you want to drink the koolaid: http://zguide.zeromq.org/page:all#-MQ-in-a-Hundred-Words
3779 2014-02-11 23:03:31 KuDeTa has joined
3780 2014-02-11 23:03:43 <esse-> Just a thought experiment, lets imagine that the majority of transactions on the network would me malleable ones, meaning the network would use a lot of resources rejecting them, would this slow the entire network down or would it have little to no effect on its efficiency?
3781 2014-02-11 23:04:07 lalopalo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3783 2014-02-11 23:05:18 <jcorgan> i like to think of it as "all the benefits of Erlang's fine-grained, message passing parallelism, without the...Erlang"
3784 2014-02-11 23:05:24 Muis_ has joined
3785 2014-02-11 23:06:27 <uiop> here's a version of that zmq_httpd code at the bottom of zmq_socket(3) that doesn't not work http://pastebin.com/zh0K9Q5P
3786 2014-02-11 23:06:48 tjopper has joined
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3792 2014-02-11 23:08:22 <jcorgan> muhoo: it's hard to say off hand whether Electrum client is affected, you might ask on bct.org
3793 2014-02-11 23:08:31 Muis has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3794 2014-02-11 23:08:51 <muhoo> jcorgan: thx i asked in #electrum
3795 2014-02-11 23:09:08 <esse-> jcorgan: was that an answer meant for me?
3796 2014-02-11 23:09:29 <helo> esse-: nodes that have seen one version of the transaction will not relay alternate mutations of it, so it shouldn't slow things down much.
3797 2014-02-11 23:09:52 <jcorgan> muhoo: do please share the answer :)
3798 2014-02-11 23:10:46 <muhoo> the answer might require me sittig down to read some python for a while
3799 2014-02-11 23:11:24 <esse-> helo: Ok thanks, so that is not a feasible way to slow things down no matter how large the botnet is then.
3800 2014-02-11 23:11:29 Bear13yte has joined
3801 2014-02-11 23:11:32 Bukowski has joined
3802 2014-02-11 23:12:05 <esse-> scalability is not an issue with such an event i presume
3803 2014-02-11 23:12:22 <helo> right.
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3817 2014-02-11 23:17:44 <jaakkos> i noticed the merging of the "disable spending change" patch, but is there a plan to fixing the hanging transactions that are not related to spending change?
3818 2014-02-11 23:18:54 <jaychritsopher> can I close bitcoin daemon immediately after sending a tx or do I need to wait some time for it to hit the network?
3819 2014-02-11 23:19:18 Bukowski has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3820 2014-02-11 23:19:35 <andytoshi> jaychritsopher: it is broadcast immediately, then every half hour or so thereafter. the first broadcast should be enough, so you're good
3821 2014-02-11 23:19:44 Aahzmundus has joined
3822 2014-02-11 23:19:55 <jaychritsopher> thanks - broadcasts until it gets picked up or forever?
3823 2014-02-11 23:20:05 <andytoshi> jaychritsopher: until it is confirmed
3824 2014-02-11 23:20:10 <jaychritsopher> 1 confirm?
3825 2014-02-11 23:20:21 <andytoshi> yeah
3826 2014-02-11 23:20:23 <jaychritsopher> thanks andy
3827 2014-02-11 23:20:28 <jaychritsopher> toshi
3828 2014-02-11 23:20:35 <jaychritsopher> ;)
3829 2014-02-11 23:20:36 <andytoshi> np
3830 2014-02-11 23:21:17 <jaychritsopher> looking at jaakkos' question, it's probably related to mine then - I made a tx ~15 mins ago and it's not been confirmed once yet
3831 2014-02-11 23:21:42 _Datavetaren has left ()
3832 2014-02-11 23:21:45 <jaychritsopher> Is there a link to read about hanging tx's right now?
3833 2014-02-11 23:22:07 <andytoshi> ah, it might've been modified and confirmed.. the link about gox's situation is http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1x93tf/some_irc_chatter_about_what_is_going_on_at_mtgox/cf99yac
3834 2014-02-11 23:22:10 _Datavetaren has joined
3835 2014-02-11 23:22:20 <andytoshi> but i don't know if there is a good writeup about bitcoind's confusion
3836 2014-02-11 23:22:34 <jaakkos> what you would see is, you get a new transaction on your list with txid that you didn't make, and you will see your original txid never confirming.
3837 2014-02-11 23:22:52 Coincidental has joined
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3839 2014-02-11 23:23:11 <jaakkos> i was asking if there is an emergency plan for this yet without hardfork
3840 2014-02-11 23:23:47 <jaychritsopher> I do see several tx's with like 5 copies 0 confirms except the first
3841 2014-02-11 23:23:53 vbuterin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3842 2014-02-11 23:23:58 <andytoshi> ah. well, without restarting that conversation too much, there is no emergency and no need for a fork, just UI cleanup
3843 2014-02-11 23:24:09 <_Datavetaren> Q: Couldn't the malleability problem be solved by the miners? Let the miners prioritize smallest tx (number of bytes) for same inputs+outputs; if equal in length: then lexicographically smallest?
3844 2014-02-11 23:24:17 <jaakkos> andytoshi: ok
3845 2014-02-11 23:24:20 morcos has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
3846 2014-02-11 23:24:38 <muhoo> right, my understanding is it's more an accounting problem for sorting out the modded txes in people's views of their wallets?
3847 2014-02-11 23:24:43 error7889 has joined
3848 2014-02-11 23:24:52 <andytoshi> _Datavetaren: no, "the miners" are not a homogeneous group and bitcoin is set up so we don't have to trust them
3849 2014-02-11 23:25:11 <muhoo> or as gordon put it "unfux0ring"
3850 2014-02-11 23:25:15 <gmaxwell> _Datavetaren: not all changes increase size. and malleability is not solved by trusting miners to do the right thing. Also, the other transaction will usually not have been heard by miners.
3851 2014-02-11 23:25:21 <Mallstromm> well, its certainly messing up with many bitcoin services,,,,, the accounting problem means delays and possibily mistakes
3852 2014-02-11 23:25:21 <gribble> Error: ",,," is not a valid command.
3853 2014-02-11 23:25:24 <andytoshi> muhoo: correct, there is some wallet confusion but the network is in a definite (correct) state where nobody has lost money
3854 2014-02-11 23:25:46 BCB has joined
3855 2014-02-11 23:25:56 <Mallstromm> andytoshi: i wouldn't say "nobody has lost money"
3856 2014-02-11 23:26:12 <muhoo> some people doublespent, i.e. on mtgox
3857 2014-02-11 23:26:19 <andytoshi> Mallstromm: i would.
3858 2014-02-11 23:26:20 <_Datavetaren> "not all changes increase size"; that's why I said lexicographically.
3859 2014-02-11 23:26:21 <Mallstromm> first, time is money and its is halting at least part of btc's economy.
3860 2014-02-11 23:26:31 <jaakkos> andytoshi: but are you not going to remove the tx that doesn't confirm, from the node?
3861 2014-02-11 23:26:37 <Mallstromm> secondly, probably mtgox has lost money to this
3862 2014-02-11 23:26:49 JZavala has joined
3863 2014-02-11 23:27:01 <jaakkos> andytoshi: also i suppose, currently that tx affects displayed balance and later i suppose it should not
3864 2014-02-11 23:27:02 <andytoshi> jaakkos: no, that does need to be fixed. there will be a fix out soon, but not emergency soon
3865 2014-02-11 23:27:15 <jaakkos> andytoshi: a fix that is not a hard fork?
3866 2014-02-11 23:27:48 <muhoo> i don't understan why a hard fork would even be a possibility, let alone a necessity.
3867 2014-02-11 23:27:52 <gmaxwell> _Datavetaren: what do you hope that will accomplish?
3868 2014-02-11 23:27:53 <andytoshi> Mallstromm: this is off topic for -dev, but gox lost money because they sent money out that they didn't mean to. malleability did not cause that, their own incompetence caused it, just like every other time they've done something stupid and lost money
3869 2014-02-11 23:27:59 flotsamuel has joined
3870 2014-02-11 23:28:00 <jaakkos> muhoo: to kill malleability
3871 2014-02-11 23:28:04 <andytoshi> jaakkos: no, ofc not, it is entirely a UI problem
3872 2014-02-11 23:28:18 <jaakkos> last year's fork wasn't too bad...
3873 2014-02-11 23:28:33 <muhoo> the devs put in a bip to make forks easier and smoother back then
3874 2014-02-11 23:29:03 <Mallstromm> andytoshi: unintentional double spending because of unconfirmed change is not a possibility? If it is, is not *only* UI, am I right?
3875 2014-02-11 23:29:15 <gmaxwell> please move this to #bitcoin
3876 2014-02-11 23:30:02 yodasan has joined
3877 2014-02-11 23:30:03 onthefrynge has joined
3878 2014-02-11 23:30:04 <muhoo> hmm good point. these guys are still wrestling an octopus. sorry for the noise.
3879 2014-02-11 23:30:07 <skinnkavaj> Yeah getting boring, let's talk about bitcoin 0.9
3880 2014-02-11 23:30:36 t3st3r has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3881 2014-02-11 23:30:56 dignork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3882 2014-02-11 23:31:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, there's going to be an 0.8.7?
3883 2014-02-11 23:31:31 dignork has joined
3884 2014-02-11 23:31:43 <_Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: Instead of enforcing uniqueness at the protocol level, I thought that good common sense of picking the right tx, broadcasters can then attempt to find that tx (by lexicographically sorting). It doesn't have to be "invalid" to produce another tx, just that miners will prioritize. Isn't it the case that most miners run the official software?
3885 2014-02-11 23:31:52 aielima has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
3886 2014-02-11 23:32:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What branches have the change that removed wine from the Windows deps gbuild?
3887 2014-02-11 23:32:04 cagedwisdom has joined
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3889 2014-02-11 23:32:24 wsirc_9586 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3890 2014-02-11 23:32:27 <lnovy> _Datavetaren: miners wouldn't see two versions of tx in most cases
3891 2014-02-11 23:32:34 <gmaxwell> _Datavetaren: then I screw you over by producing a modifying your transaction to produce a lower lexagraphic sort.
3892 2014-02-11 23:32:51 <gmaxwell> and as lnovy says, the miner will never see the other version in most cases.
3893 2014-02-11 23:32:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Specifically, does 0.8.7 have that change? What Windows deps will it be using? if building the deps still uses wine, hopefully I have my deps zip somewhere)
3894 2014-02-11 23:32:57 Imbue has joined
3895 2014-02-11 23:32:58 ThomasV has joined
3896 2014-02-11 23:33:00 <_Datavetaren> @gmaxwell Yes, but how low can you go?
3897 2014-02-11 23:33:06 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|looks at his +, puzzled
3898 2014-02-11 23:33:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|When'd that happen?
3899 2014-02-11 23:33:30 <muhoo> michagogo|cloud: they were going to go +i because of the noise earlier
3900 2014-02-11 23:33:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|muhoo: Do you mean +m?
3901 2014-02-11 23:33:54 bpd has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
3902 2014-02-11 23:33:54 <gmaxwell> _Datavetaren: by using invalid encodings, lower than any user with correct software. It is still, also, not a fix, because miners can then exploit anything that can be exploited by not following this rule.
3903 2014-02-11 23:33:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|+v and +i are orthogonal
3904 2014-02-11 23:34:22 <_Datavetaren> @gmaxwell, lnovy: Ok, too bad then. I thought that within 10 minutes you would have seen all tx.
3905 2014-02-11 23:34:46 RedEmerald has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3906 2014-02-11 23:34:53 sebicas has left ()
3907 2014-02-11 23:35:23 <_Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: But as long as a majority of miners do follow this rule? It's in their own interest that the network is working?
3908 2014-02-11 23:35:39 <gmaxwell> _Datavetaren: no, it would only take one breaking it.
3909 2014-02-11 23:35:46 Neozonz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3910 2014-02-11 23:35:49 <gmaxwell> Please take some time to learn more about how bitcoin works.
3911 2014-02-11 23:36:07 AaronvanW has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3912 2014-02-11 23:36:25 phantomspark has joined
3913 2014-02-11 23:36:59 RedEmerald has joined
3914 2014-02-11 23:37:11 <_Datavetaren> Ok, I'll do.
3915 2014-02-11 23:37:51 riplin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3916 2014-02-11 23:38:02 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: ops reserving the right to go +m or even +i if things get out of hand again
3917 2014-02-11 23:38:08 nirom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3918 2014-02-11 23:38:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|maaku: Ah, so the 51 voiced users are in case of a +m?
3919 2014-02-11 23:38:44 Neozonz_ has joined
3920 2014-02-11 23:38:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Got it.
3921 2014-02-11 23:38:49 <maaku> yes
3922 2014-02-11 23:38:53 LeapingLennie has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3923 2014-02-11 23:38:56 <Aahzmundus> What would it take to get +v if and when that happens?
3924 2014-02-11 23:39:15 <muhoo> Aahzmundus: bullshit noise like this, i expect :-P
3925 2014-02-11 23:39:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Aahzmundus: Convince an op that you can contribute to the discussion, I'd imagine
3926 2014-02-11 23:39:23 antephialtic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3927 2014-02-11 23:39:34 <maaku> Aahzmundus: contribute usefully to the development discussions going on here
3928 2014-02-11 23:39:50 Guest47055 has quit ()
3929 2014-02-11 23:39:56 q2vJT3N2AOwIWy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3930 2014-02-11 23:40:00 ejhong has quit (Quit: ejhong)
3931 2014-02-11 23:40:20 roasbeef has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
3932 2014-02-11 23:40:45 <maaku> if anyone knows a quality BSD-licensed C++ reed solomon encoder/decoder, please let me know
3933 2014-02-11 23:40:53 morcos has joined
3934 2014-02-11 23:41:55 LeapingLennie has joined
3935 2014-02-11 23:42:06 <BB-Martino> anyone around? yet another question
3936 2014-02-11 23:42:19 inmymem has joined
3937 2014-02-11 23:42:48 <BB-Martino> btc@nl:~$ bit getbalance bitbargain 1
3938 2014-02-11 23:42:49 <BB-Martino> 177.06960506
3939 2014-02-11 23:42:51 <BB-Martino> btc@nl:~$ bit getbalance "*" 1
3940 2014-02-11 23:42:52 <BB-Martino> 156.18406013
3941 2014-02-11 23:42:58 <BB-Martino> which one do i believe?
3942 2014-02-11 23:43:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BB-Martino: try getbalance "" 1
3943 2014-02-11 23:43:26 <BB-Martino> btc@nl:~$ bit getbalance "" 1
3944 2014-02-11 23:43:27 <BB-Martino> -21.08554493
3945 2014-02-11 23:43:29 <BB-Martino> btc@nl:~$
3946 2014-02-11 23:43:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right.
3947 2014-02-11 23:43:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Take a look at the output of listaccounts
3948 2014-02-11 23:43:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(I think that was the command)
3949 2014-02-11 23:44:07 <BB-Martino> the funny thing is, before i updated from 0.8.5 to 0.8.6, getbalance bitbargain 1 was ~175
3950 2014-02-11 23:44:28 <BB-Martino> the negative in the "" account was all something i was told here to disregard
3951 2014-02-11 23:44:41 <BB-Martino> and i believed it because the ~175 number is right
3952 2014-02-11 23:44:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BB-Martino: Well, your wallet balance is the balance of all accounts
3953 2014-02-11 23:44:47 nirom has joined
3954 2014-02-11 23:45:04 <BB-Martino> michago|cloud: that's exactly what it isn't, as it turned out.
3955 2014-02-11 23:45:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...
3956 2014-02-11 23:45:26 <BB-Martino> well, it's supposed to be
3957 2014-02-11 23:45:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The actual number of bitcoins in your wallet is the sum of the balances of all your accounts
3958 2014-02-11 23:45:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Including ""
3959 2014-02-11 23:45:37 <BB-Martino> i completely agree and wish it was the case
3960 2014-02-11 23:45:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It is.
3961 2014-02-11 23:45:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you have account A with 10 bitcoins
3962 2014-02-11 23:46:03 <BB-Martino> the numbers did NOT add up with the previous version
3963 2014-02-11 23:46:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And account "" with -5 bitcoins
3964 2014-02-11 23:46:10 Starduster has quit (Quit: gotta go)
3965 2014-02-11 23:46:23 <BB-Martino> okay, then explain this:
3966 2014-02-11 23:46:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The balance of your wallet is 5 bitcoins, and that's the maximum you can spend
3967 2014-02-11 23:46:31 <BB-Martino> btc@nl:~$ bit getbalance
3968 2014-02-11 23:46:33 <BB-Martino> 346.49345401
3969 2014-02-11 23:46:42 coke0 has joined
3970 2014-02-11 23:46:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BB-Martino: unconfirmed transactions
3971 2014-02-11 23:46:46 <goodbtc> well, is not exactly brain surgery, isn't it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I
3972 2014-02-11 23:47:10 ahmed_bodi has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3973 2014-02-11 23:47:12 <BB-Martino> michago: RIGHT, except all of the accounts add up to less
3974 2014-02-11 23:47:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BB-Martino: run the listaccounts command
3975 2014-02-11 23:47:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|listaccounts takes a minconf parameter
3976 2014-02-11 23:47:34 <BB-Martino> running listaccounts:     "bitbargain" : 177.06960506,     "PayGW" : 0.20000000,     "" : -21.08554493,
3977 2014-02-11 23:47:37 <BB-Martino> running listaccounts 0
3978 2014-02-11 23:47:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That parameter defaults to 1
3979 2014-02-11 23:47:40 oPen_syLar has joined
3980 2014-02-11 23:47:40 oPen_syLar has quit (Changing host)
3981 2014-02-11 23:47:40 oPen_syLar has joined
3982 2014-02-11 23:47:51 <BB-Martino>     "" : -21.08554493,     "PayGW" : 0.20000000,     "bitbargain" : 209.22478394,
3983 2014-02-11 23:47:52 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, correct me if im wrong (i'm a bit tired/hungry/caffeine deprived)
3984 2014-02-11 23:47:54 <BB-Martino> i count less than 200
3985 2014-02-11 23:48:03 <BB-Martino> even though getbalance gives me over 300
3986 2014-02-11 23:48:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Your balance is 156.18406013
3987 2014-02-11 23:48:26 <phantomcircuit> but could you not generate a transaction id from the hash of a transactions outputs + signatures in the inputs
3988 2014-02-11 23:48:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You won't be able to send, say, 157 bitcoins
3989 2014-02-11 23:48:42 <BB-Martino> michagogo: so the number 346.49345401 comes from where exactly?
3990 2014-02-11 23:48:49 <phantomcircuit> BB-Martino, getbalance "*" 0
3991 2014-02-11 23:48:51 <phantomcircuit> BB-Martino, getbalance "*" 1
3992 2014-02-11 23:48:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'm not sure, honestly
3993 2014-02-11 23:48:55 yodasan has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3994 2014-02-11 23:48:56 <phantomcircuit> read the docs for getbalance
3995 2014-02-11 23:49:04 <BB-Martino> btc@nl:~$ bit getbalance "" 0
3996 2014-02-11 23:49:06 <BB-Martino> -21.08554493
3997 2014-02-11 23:49:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BB-Martino: try listunspent, analyze those manually
3998 2014-02-11 23:49:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|and also listunspent 0
3999 2014-02-11 23:49:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's 2 AM, I need to get to sleep. Goodnight.
4000 2014-02-11 23:49:45 <BB-Martino> yeah thanks, will dig through those now. later.
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4002 2014-02-11 23:49:50 <phantomcircuit> BB-Martino, listaccounts
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4004 2014-02-11 23:50:00 <phantomcircuit> getbalance works on an accounts basis
4005 2014-02-11 23:50:23 <BB-Martino> you both keep telling me that, other people (i think one was a dev) said to disregard those numbers because it reports them wrong
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4007 2014-02-11 23:50:38 <BB-Martino> and you can't explain the >300 btc number in any way with doing getbalance and listaccounts
4008 2014-02-11 23:51:03 <phantomcircuit> BB-Martino, the getbalance rpc call is in general bizarre
4009 2014-02-11 23:51:07 <BB-Martino> plus, like i said, before the update, doing getbalance bitbargain 1 gave me a 175 btc number
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4011 2014-02-11 23:51:21 <phantomcircuit> there is special logic for when you specify "*" as the account which makes it slightly less bizarre
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4013 2014-02-11 23:51:32 <BB-Martino> and if no coins were lost due to this, that's the number it should be.
4014 2014-02-11 23:51:42 <BB-Martino> and the negative in "" should not exist
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4018 2014-02-11 23:52:30 <BB-Martino> because nothing is sent from there, and if i deduct it from the main account's balance, it would mean that much coin is lost
4019 2014-02-11 23:52:42 <BB-Martino> but it wasn't the case before this update
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4027 2014-02-11 23:55:35 <esse-> helo: thanks for ur reply, but it seems some transactions are not being confirmed as a cause of this DoS attack according to Gavin (they are working on a fix). So an even larger scale attack would worsen the situation with the current software it seems (read his blog on bitcoinfoundation)
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