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   9 2014-02-12 00:03:29 <BB-Martino> Total confirmed: 172.99321013 (24)
  10 2014-02-12 00:03:43 <BB-Martino> [23:48] <michagogo|cloud> Your balance is 156.18406013
  11 2014-02-12 00:03:49 <BB-Martino> take that.
  12 2014-02-12 00:03:50 <BB-Martino> :P
  13 2014-02-12 00:04:42 <BB-Martino> the listaccounts feature is completely out of sync with getbalance, which is out of sync with the total number of spendable coins as well
  14 2014-02-12 00:04:58 <BB-Martino> time for rescan? :)
  15 2014-02-12 00:05:53 <jgarzik> BB-Martino, make sure all queries are asking for the same number of confirmations
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  17 2014-02-12 00:06:00 <jgarzik> otherwise balances will differ naturally
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  19 2014-02-12 00:06:24 <BB-Martino> jgarzik: I did listunspent and listunspent 1 as well
  20 2014-02-12 00:06:27 <BB-Martino> same output
  21 2014-02-12 00:06:31 <BB-Martino> all coins are confirmed
  22 2014-02-12 00:06:33 <BB-Martino> with at least 1
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  26 2014-02-12 00:07:24 <jgarzik> BB-Martino, listaccounts can definitely get out of sync :/   Sometimes I use an adjustment account to fix balances manually :(
  27 2014-02-12 00:07:25 <BB-Martino> same with >3
  28 2014-02-12 00:07:42 <BB-Martino> that's the fun part
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  30 2014-02-12 00:07:45 <BB-Martino> if i re-adjusted it
  31 2014-02-12 00:07:49 <BB-Martino> and moved the negative over to the main account
  32 2014-02-12 00:07:53 <BB-Martino> THEN it would be out of sync
  33 2014-02-12 00:08:07 <BB-Martino> because the getbalance bitbargain command gives back the right value
  34 2014-02-12 00:08:19 <BB-Martino> if i -20'd it, my accounting would show missing coins
  35 2014-02-12 00:08:28 <BB-Martino> but listunspent confirmed it that i do actually have that much coin, AND confirmed
  36 2014-02-12 00:09:12 <BB-Martino> (which i'm really happy for btw)
  37 2014-02-12 00:09:22 agath has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  38 2014-02-12 00:09:47 <BB-Martino> i'd be even happier if that ridiculous 350+ BTC getbalance result was real
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  46 2014-02-12 00:14:13 <BB-Martino> jgarzik: Seriously, i wrote a php script in 2 minutes to add up the numbers from the json output, confirmed coins only, it gives the right balance as expected. But with bitcoind, there's currently no way of getting even close to that number by doing getbalance, except I do getbalance on the bitbargain account directly and ignore the negative 20 in the "" account
  47 2014-02-12 00:14:14 ircuser-2 has joined
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  49 2014-02-12 00:14:42 <BB-Martino> (talking about listunspent)
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  52 2014-02-12 00:15:08 <BB-Martino> hi pieh0
  53 2014-02-12 00:15:16 Pieh0 has joined
  54 2014-02-12 00:15:21 <BB-Martino> oh.
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  56 2014-02-12 00:15:39 <BB-Martino> mistook a part for a join (also, sorry for making it look like i'm spamming, apparently everyone's asleep)
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  59 2014-02-12 00:16:46 <jgarzik> BB-Martino, yah, fundamentally, the account system is a bolt-on, optional, top layer.  listunspent and friends peek under the covers of that layer.
  60 2014-02-12 00:18:08 <BB-Martino> is 'getbalance' included in that?
  61 2014-02-12 00:18:14 <BB-Martino> a bolt-on, optional top layer?
  62 2014-02-12 00:18:34 <lechuga_> it's #ifdef'd
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  66 2014-02-12 00:20:30 <maaku> can someone send me some testnet coins plz? moECsK8Xo5DZaGDiJM6pweMzzP8cYNpKy3
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  68 2014-02-12 00:22:37 <Imbue> maaku: sent
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  73 2014-02-12 00:29:02 <maaku> thanks!
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  84 2014-02-12 00:41:00 <Luke-Jr> why does 0.8.6 contain so many commits not in master? O.o
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  96 2014-02-12 00:44:52 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: backports that weren't clean?
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 109 2014-02-12 00:50:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I can't find a number of them in master at all :/
 110 2014-02-12 00:50:06 <Luke-Jr> eg * c4892eb Log reason for non-standard transaction rejection
 111 2014-02-12 00:50:18 <Luke-Jr> hrm
 112 2014-02-12 00:50:25 SeksiCKret has joined
 113 2014-02-12 00:50:28 <SeksiCKret> anyone getting 1 satoshi donations from randoms sending 100's of 1 satoshis in one tx to individual outputs for those 1 sats?
 114 2014-02-12 00:50:28 <Luke-Jr> master's full log has it.. /me pokes git
 115 2014-02-12 00:50:56 <Luke-Jr> aha, I see why. I bet I consider that a feature
 116 2014-02-12 00:51:00 <gmaxwell> SeksiCKret: it appears to be a dos attack.
 117 2014-02-12 00:51:30 <SeksiCKret> if it was sent to my paper wallet do i have security to fear at all?
 118 2014-02-12 00:51:34 <SeksiCKret> i read about the botnet thingy
 119 2014-02-12 00:51:52 <Luke-Jr> there is no botnet thing
 120 2014-02-12 00:51:55 <SeksiCKret> i believe i generated them in a secure fashion, offline, restart before going on line, not online prior to gen etc.
 121 2014-02-12 00:52:04 pootietang has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
 122 2014-02-12 00:52:24 <Luke-Jr> SeksiCKret: what generated the entropy?
 123 2014-02-12 00:52:24 <SeksiCKret> well the "attack" i glanced at the FUD and thought it wouldnt affect much if I wasnt moving $ in or out of exchange, wallets, or 2part wallets
 124 2014-02-12 00:52:33 <SeksiCKret> mouse movements
 125 2014-02-12 00:52:48 <Luke-Jr> SeksiCKret: the DoS spam thing isn't a risk, but I wouldn't bet on weak entropy
 126 2014-02-12 00:53:15 <Luke-Jr> I don't consider mouse movements strong personally, but it seems popular among some things I'd expect to be secure so *shrug*
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 128 2014-02-12 00:53:21 <SeksiCKret> okay
 129 2014-02-12 00:53:22 freewil has joined
 130 2014-02-12 00:53:33 <SeksiCKret> after botnet clears ill do a real hardwallet with researched entropy techniques
 131 2014-02-12 00:53:33 freewil has left ()
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 133 2014-02-12 00:53:47 <Luke-Jr> SeksiCKret: right now, Armory is the most proven way
 134 2014-02-12 00:53:49 <SeksiCKret> so my security isnt to risk with this ddos more than the generalized risk of a 2part wallet being hacked?
 135 2014-02-12 00:53:51 <SeksiCKret> check
 136 2014-02-12 00:54:00 <SeksiCKret> i was also having another q relating to a project im doing
 137 2014-02-12 00:54:08 <SeksiCKret> using cas bitcoin utility to make privkey codes
 138 2014-02-12 00:54:17 <SeksiCKret> is that a secure methodology on a fresh install/boot/run
 139 2014-02-12 00:54:22 freewil has left ()
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 141 2014-02-12 00:54:24 <Luke-Jr> SeksiCKret: if you send to your offline address more than once, and also spend from it, *that* may introduce a risk
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 143 2014-02-12 00:54:28 <lnovy> also some techniques of feeding the mouse input into the seed of prng i have seen were... interesting at least :)
 144 2014-02-12 00:54:28 <SeksiCKret> i need like 7mm across privkey qrs
 145 2014-02-12 00:54:39 <SeksiCKret> its a paper wallet that never gets spent only my deposits to savings go there
 146 2014-02-12 00:54:40 <Luke-Jr> SeksiCKret: I suggest a never-online netbook with Armory
 147 2014-02-12 00:54:52 <SeksiCKret> does it generate minipriv key pub key combos?
 148 2014-02-12 00:55:07 <SeksiCKret> QR code size/readability is a factor for me.
 149 2014-02-12 00:55:09 bpd has joined
 150 2014-02-12 00:55:10 <SeksiCKret> Thanks for the help btw
 151 2014-02-12 00:55:13 <SeksiCKret> :)
 152 2014-02-12 00:55:26 <SeksiCKret> ive read about armory generator but havent explored it yet.
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 154 2014-02-12 00:55:41 <Luke-Jr> SeksiCKret: "minipriv key" is not something I'd consider secure.
 155 2014-02-12 00:55:47 <Luke-Jr> SeksiCKret: Armory generates real paper wallets
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 157 2014-02-12 00:56:29 <SeksiCKret> oh
 158 2014-02-12 00:56:41 <SeksiCKret> casascius uses minipriv key stuff and is considered secure no?
 159 2014-02-12 00:57:02 <Luke-Jr> no comment :p
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 162 2014-02-12 00:57:08 <lnovy> :))
 163 2014-02-12 00:57:39 <SeksiCKret> [:
 164 2014-02-12 00:57:41 <SeksiCKret> ty
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 168 2014-02-12 00:58:00 <SeksiCKret> i havent sent them to proof pending this issue so ill keep testing to create security for my friends :D
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 265 2014-02-12 02:34:58 <uiop> maaku: (re: BSD reed solomon) https://github.com/dlbeer/quirc is a BSD qrcode decoding lib, and src code looks well-done
 266 2014-02-12 02:35:20 <uiop> maaku: (if not the context your searching in, possibly adaptable)
 267 2014-02-12 02:36:11 <uiop> see lib/decode.c
 268 2014-02-12 02:36:14 Bear13yte has joined
 269 2014-02-12 02:37:56 InsiderJoe has joined
 270 2014-02-12 02:38:03 <uiop> (also, there's libqrencode, which is BSD and presumably must have the matching encoding functions http://fukuchi.org/works/qrencode/ )
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 280 2014-02-12 02:46:13 <BB-Martino> I know it's late, but would anyone with a decent amount of transactions, and using accounts care to compare their getbalance "*" 3 output with the output of my script when fed the result of listunspent 3 ?
 281 2014-02-12 02:46:22 <BB-Martino> https://bitbargain.co.uk/unspentcount.txt
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 284 2014-02-12 02:46:40 <BB-Martino> (and of course let me know if there's a difference)
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 313 2014-02-12 03:15:21 <P4Titan> Hello
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 315 2014-02-12 03:15:35 <SuSEno> World
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 319 2014-02-12 03:19:21 <P4Titan> Within the blockchain, can the sending address of a transaction be found?
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 323 2014-02-12 03:20:51 <lechuga_> if you mean the first broadcaster of the txn
 324 2014-02-12 03:20:51 <lechuga_> no
 325 2014-02-12 03:21:04 <andytoshi> P4Titan: there is no 'sending address'. sometimes there is an address which the coin used to be associated to, but that's not useful for anything
 326 2014-02-12 03:21:08 <lechuga_> (their IP address)
 327 2014-02-12 03:21:29 <andytoshi> as in, there is no reason to expect it is associated to the sender
 328 2014-02-12 03:21:42 <andytoshi> this is in the /topic, actually
 329 2014-02-12 03:21:44 <P4Titan> So when I send coins, my seding address is not recorded anywhere
 330 2014-02-12 03:22:12 Neozonz has joined
 331 2014-02-12 03:22:30 <andytoshi> P4Titan: um, if you are asking because you want to hide from the NSA, no, the address that your coins are associated to is indeed public
 332 2014-02-12 03:23:11 <lechuga_> you can know the address associated with the key that signed a txin used for the payment
 333 2014-02-12 03:23:14 <andytoshi> P4Titan: so data analyzers can get it because there's a good chance it's an actual "sending address". people who want return addresses or something can't use it for that though because "a good chance" is not good enough
 334 2014-02-12 03:23:21 <Luke-Jr> P4Titan: there isn't a sending address
 335 2014-02-12 03:23:43 <Luke-Jr> P4Titan: coins aren't held by addresses, they're *sent to* them.
 336 2014-02-12 03:24:15 <andytoshi> what Luke-Jr said. that's how you want to think about this.
 337 2014-02-12 03:24:41 sacrelege has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 338 2014-02-12 03:25:19 <P4Titan> Yes, I am aware, but I am trying to implement something for my own project, and it requires a transaction to be verified if it came from a specific address. I need something unique that the sender can show that proves the coins came from them. I guess I could use the signature somehow.
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 344 2014-02-12 03:27:15 <andytoshi> ok, there is no sending address so you are barking up the wrong tree there. if you want to authenticate people use a normal way of authenticating people
 345 2014-02-12 03:27:17 <c--O-O> <@MagicalTux> [12:03:59] <Concurrent581072> MagicalTux, are you waiting on the btc devs to make a fix regarding malleability, or is mtgox working on something on their end(like other exchanges) to keep it from being exploited? <- we are working with the bitcoin devs to work out a standard way to solve this, then will implement it
 346 2014-02-12 03:27:23 <c--O-O> is this true?
 347 2014-02-12 03:27:55 <Luke-Jr> P4Titan: it's impossible to verify a transaction "came from a specific address", because they DON'T come from addresses
 348 2014-02-12 03:28:22 <P4Titan> In what sense?
 349 2014-02-12 03:28:30 <Luke-Jr> you can verify a person has the ability to RECEIVE WITH an address, but there is no sending identifier to verify
 350 2014-02-12 03:28:42 <Luke-Jr> P4Titan: addresses are only used to receive, not to send
 351 2014-02-12 03:29:00 <P4Titan> Ok, but is there not a signing aspect that is unique
 352 2014-02-12 03:29:07 <Luke-Jr> c--O-O: more like an excuse really
 353 2014-02-12 03:29:08 rivaler has quit (Quit: rivaler)
 354 2014-02-12 03:29:12 <Luke-Jr> c--O-O: off-topic here tho
 355 2014-02-12 03:29:19 <c--O-O> LUKE
 356 2014-02-12 03:29:27 <Luke-Jr> P4Titan: there is no sending identifier at all, only receiving. you can have a receiver sign.
 357 2014-02-12 03:29:30 <c--O-O> I asked in #BITCOIN THEY SENT ME HERE
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 359 2014-02-12 03:29:37 <lechuga_> lol
 360 2014-02-12 03:30:28 <lechuga_> all of the dice sites work by inferring sender based on the signer of the inputs
 361 2014-02-12 03:30:53 <lechuga_> and assuming if you pay to the first address in the txins it gets back to the spender
 362 2014-02-12 03:31:07 <lechuga_> but that is really bad
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 365 2014-02-12 03:32:11 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: there is no address in txins. you're just confusing him more >_<
 366 2014-02-12 03:32:22 <lechuga_> well the address associated with the key that signed the txin
 367 2014-02-12 03:33:14 <lechuga_> which you can infer from its previous txout but i should stop because im making this worse for him
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 370 2014-02-12 03:34:44 <Luke-Jr> yeah, it's like Joe's sister's half-brother's first roommate :D
 371 2014-02-12 03:34:51 <lechuga_> lol exactly
 372 2014-02-12 03:35:58 <andytoshi> everyone in my family marries their sister's half-brother's first roommate, so my software will treat that as 'wife', thx for the help guies
 373 2014-02-12 03:36:13 <Luke-Jr> lol
 374 2014-02-12 03:36:18 <lechuga_> lool
 375 2014-02-12 03:36:28 <P4Titan> loool
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 377 2014-02-12 03:36:35 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: excellent explanation there :D
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 408 2014-02-12 04:10:28 <jMyles> I have the following question: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1xofsj/eli31_and_understand_p2p_networking_and_crypto/
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 416 2014-02-12 04:16:36 <berndj> jMyles, is this in relation to gox? if so, i'd say it just shifts the problem. now the malleability issue moves from "waiting for a particular txid to confirm" to the "knowing how to recognize a tx as the one you've been waiting to get confirmed"
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 419 2014-02-12 04:18:40 <jMyles> berndj: So there's no way to refer to an unconfirmed transaction other than by ID?  (I'm sorry if this is unduly elementary for this channel, feel free to RTFM me).
 420 2014-02-12 04:18:41 <lechuga_> i may or may not have answered you
 421 2014-02-12 04:18:48 <lechuga_> via reddit
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 447 2014-02-12 04:32:56 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, so what's going on with bitstamp?
 448 2014-02-12 04:33:30 hmmma has joined
 449 2014-02-12 04:33:59 <Ontolog> i have 0.8.6-beta installed on os x and the database became corrupted; now i can't even start the app. any way for me to trigger a redownload of the entire database?
 450 2014-02-12 04:34:08 <Ontolog> like a directory i can remove?
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 452 2014-02-12 04:34:40 <phantomcircuit> Ontolog, it did?
 453 2014-02-12 04:34:41 <phantomcircuit> shit
 454 2014-02-12 04:34:48 <phantomcircuit> that was supposed to have been fixed in 0.8.6
 455 2014-02-12 04:34:56 <Ontolog> yeah i had 0.8.5
 456 2014-02-12 04:34:57 <phantomcircuit> Ontolog, what's the exact error?
 457 2014-02-12 04:35:01 <phantomcircuit> oh
 458 2014-02-12 04:35:04 <Ontolog> and then because of the error
 459 2014-02-12 04:35:08 <Ontolog> i tried using 0.8.6
 460 2014-02-12 04:35:11 <phantomcircuit> Ontolog, running bitcoin-qt or bitcoind
 461 2014-02-12 04:35:17 <Ontolog> qt
 462 2014-02-12 04:35:21 <Ontolog> via the gui launcher
 463 2014-02-12 04:35:36 <phantomcircuit> it should ask you if you want to reindex
 464 2014-02-12 04:35:39 <phantomcircuit> did it not ?
 465 2014-02-12 04:35:59 <Ontolog> Assertion failed: (pfork != NULL), function SetBestChain, file src/main.cpp, line 1769.
 466 2014-02-12 04:36:03 Emcy has joined
 467 2014-02-12 04:36:08 <Ontolog> it was starting the reindex but then crashes
 468 2014-02-12 04:36:15 <Ontolog> in fact with 0.8.5 it was reindexing
 469 2014-02-12 04:36:19 <Ontolog> but it would never complete
 470 2014-02-12 04:36:23 <Ontolog> it was just stay stuck
 471 2014-02-12 04:36:25 <Ontolog> for days on end
 472 2014-02-12 04:36:31 oPen_syLar has joined
 473 2014-02-12 04:36:37 <Ontolog> so now i just want to download again so i guess i just delete the blocks directory?
 474 2014-02-12 04:37:35 <Luke-Jr> have you considered bad hardware?
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 476 2014-02-12 04:39:37 <freewil> what happens if you start to run out of disk space
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 480 2014-02-12 04:44:24 <maaku> uiop: thanks, that looks adaptable
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 491 2014-02-12 04:53:10 <gfawkes_> le sigh.. looks like im gonna have to write a something to get rid of these annoying sochi spam coins =\
 492 2014-02-12 04:53:48 djcoin_ has joined
 493 2014-02-12 04:53:56 <gfawkes_> bundle 'em into a transaction and send them to a blackhole address i guess
 494 2014-02-12 04:54:17 <gmaxwell> gfawkes_: no you won't!
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 497 2014-02-12 04:54:29 <gmaxwell> gfawkes_: https://github.com/petertodd/dust-b-gone
 498 2014-02-12 04:54:42 <Cusipzzz> +1 dust-b-gone
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 500 2014-02-12 04:55:08 <gmaxwell> gfawkes_: sending to a blackhole address is bad for the network too, since it creates more utxo that must persist forever.
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 511 2014-02-12 05:00:56 <torokun> mmm.  a lot of these things could be fixed, couldn't they?  If you had to prime an address by publishing something signed before using it, you could help avoid black hole addresses maybe.
 512 2014-02-12 05:02:10 pierreatwork has joined
 513 2014-02-12 05:03:20 <gmaxwell> torokun: no, not really.
 514 2014-02-12 05:03:31 AusBitBank has joined
 515 2014-02-12 05:03:33 <gmaxwell> torokun: a destroyed private key is no less a blackholed address.
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 518 2014-02-12 05:04:01 <torokun> true, but at least you'd know someone had the private key before using the address.
 519 2014-02-12 05:04:11 <torokun> can't do anything about their throwing it away...
 520 2014-02-12 05:04:32 AusBitBank has joined
 521 2014-02-12 05:04:51 <gmaxwell> no, you wouldn't even then. It's possible to back-construct a public key from a provably random signature and a message.  but then no one has the private key so no _other_ message could ever be signed with it.
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 523 2014-02-12 05:05:11 <phantomcircuit> lol
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 528 2014-02-12 05:05:30 <gmaxwell> torokun: its not like a blackhole address thing is something that happens by chance, people intentionally do it. there existing just one intentional way is enough.
 529 2014-02-12 05:06:17 <gmaxwell> besides, there are protocols where where disclosing the signature in advance breaks security.
 530 2014-02-12 05:06:25 <torokun> true, it's moot i guess.
 531 2014-02-12 05:06:27 sbrossie has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 532 2014-02-12 05:06:41 <gmaxwell> (e.g. ones where the signature is coerced to reveal a secret someone else wants)
 533 2014-02-12 05:07:26 Bear13yte has joined
 534 2014-02-12 05:08:26 <torokun> gm: do you think there will be some sort of fix that gets exchange wallets functioning correctly again relatively soon?
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 538 2014-02-12 05:09:15 <gmaxwell> torokun: ask the exchanges.
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 541 2014-02-12 05:09:38 exfor has joined
 542 2014-02-12 05:10:13 <exfor> I'm this room was interesting today.
 543 2014-02-12 05:10:18 <exfor> sure*
 544 2014-02-12 05:10:34 <torokun> it looked like the reference client might be undergoing updates to deal with it.
 545 2014-02-12 05:10:48 <BB-Martino> reserve keys are keys to use for change addresses  and newly generated addresses with getnewaddress, correect?
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 548 2014-02-12 05:11:33 <BB-Martino> dumped my walllet, wondering why such a large number of them
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 554 2014-02-12 05:14:17 <BB-Martino> whatever they are, my question is: aren't they reserved for later use? do they become unreserved at some point? and if so, should there not be just 100 of them or so?
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 566 2014-02-12 05:21:10 <lechuga_> hmm
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 568 2014-02-12 05:21:39 <lechuga_> its not obvious to me how exchanges which levergae headless client with their own external wallet impl
 569 2014-02-12 05:21:59 <lechuga_> are going to safely use inputs/outputs to identify transactions
 570 2014-02-12 05:22:12 <lechuga_> actually nm
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 572 2014-02-12 05:22:42 <lechuga_> was hng up on sendtoaddress returning the txid and then you need to query for the raw txn to get the inputs/outputs
 573 2014-02-12 05:22:47 <lechuga_> hung*
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 576 2014-02-12 05:23:04 <lechuga_> and a race with the txn hitting the blockchain before you get the raw txn
 577 2014-02-12 05:23:32 <lechuga_> but if you do it right it seems fine
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 585 2014-02-12 05:27:33 <maaku> BB-Martino: you want a pool of addresses in case you have to restore from a backup
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 590 2014-02-12 05:30:06 <flotsamuel> I've been out. Any luck figuring out the balance issue, BB-Martino?
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 608 2014-02-12 05:41:06 <jMyles> In my barely-educated-on-the-matter mind, I'm increasingly in favor of wontfix on most of the "malleable" properties of transactions.
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 610 2014-02-12 05:41:36 <jMyles> It seems to me that inputs and outputs are the proper way to identify unconfirmed transactions.
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 613 2014-02-12 05:43:50 <BB-Martino> flotsamuel: yes and no. listunspent more or less matches with the expected balance of users, but listaccounts and getbalance report the craziest things. So  now i've written a script to create a csv from the pywallet dump with the requested account names, and i'm importing the .csv into a newly created fresh wallet
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 618 2014-02-12 05:45:07 <flotsamuel> BB-Martino: bummer. good luck man. Were you using the account system at all beyond getbalance?
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 623 2014-02-12 05:48:21 <BB-Martino> yeah, but now i'm importting everything into ""
 624 2014-02-12 05:48:25 <BB-Martino> and that's what i'll use
 625 2014-02-12 05:48:32 <flotsamuel> And did you do a -salvagewallet to get to this current state?
 626 2014-02-12 05:48:52 <BB-Martino> no, see above (rm wallet.dat, import with filtered labels)
 627 2014-02-12 05:49:01 <flotsamuel> gotchya
 628 2014-02-12 05:49:03 <BB-Martino> it won't finish any time soon tho
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 635 2014-02-12 05:55:22 <helo> jMyles: you are right!
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 637 2014-02-12 05:56:08 <justanotheruser1> Does any bitcoin dev want a free domain name?
 638 2014-02-12 05:56:25 <helo> what domain? (not a dev, just curious)
 639 2014-02-12 05:56:58 <justanotheruser1> helo: *.(com||info||net||org)
 640 2014-02-12 05:57:18 <justanotheruser1> I really need to brush up on regex
 641 2014-02-12 05:57:32 <amiller> google.com is an element of *.(com||info||net||org)
 642 2014-02-12 05:57:39 <amiller> can you get that one, it would be useful
 643 2014-02-12 05:57:40 <helo> yeah, i think they'd like google.com
 644 2014-02-12 05:57:58 <jMyles> justanotheruser1: Don't we all.  A friend of mine and I made a new year's resolution to be seriously good at regexs and grep arguments by the end of the year
 645 2014-02-12 05:58:28 <justanotheruser1> Don't you get technical with me
 646 2014-02-12 05:59:10 rdymac has joined
 647 2014-02-12 05:59:17 <justanotheruser1> I was probably just going to waste my free domain and buy coinstealingmalware.com
 648 2014-02-12 05:59:39 benrcole has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 649 2014-02-12 06:01:38 <jcorgan> justanotheruser1: i find this very useful http://www.debuggex.com/
 650 2014-02-12 06:02:31 <justanotheruser1> thanks jcorgan. Do you want a free domain?
 651 2014-02-12 06:02:49 forever-d has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 652 2014-02-12 06:03:00 <jcorgan> if i get to pick it
 653 2014-02-12 06:03:14 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 654 2014-02-12 06:03:20 <jcorgan> dontbesuchadogehole.com
 655 2014-02-12 06:03:42 SeksiCKret has quit ()
 656 2014-02-12 06:04:58 <helo> can we get whywasibanned.com with a cname to dontbesuchadogehole.com?
 657 2014-02-12 06:05:45 payday has quit ()
 658 2014-02-12 06:05:49 <helo> (taking full advantage of the devs getting sleep after a busy day to go waaaay offtopic in here...)
 659 2014-02-12 06:06:05 <jcorgan> lold
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 680 2014-02-12 06:18:25 <jcorgan> cool, grabbed dontbesuchadogehole.com, now I need something to point it to.
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 683 2014-02-12 06:22:03 <justanotheruser1> jcorgan: perhaps the pastebin where dogecoiners discuss manipulating the market?
 684 2014-02-12 06:23:04 <jcorgan> that could work
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 686 2014-02-12 06:23:09 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 687 2014-02-12 06:23:38 <jcorgan> not exactly sure how to set up a redirect (never used namecheap before) but i'd be happy to let you walk me through it
 688 2014-02-12 06:24:26 <justanotheruser1> jcorgan: me either :P, I just got a bunch of codes. They were giving them out at a hackathon
 689 2014-02-12 06:24:41 gabens has joined
 690 2014-02-12 06:24:42 Ninsei_ has joined
 691 2014-02-12 06:24:58 <justanotheruser1> They actually announced that I won .5btc for our teams product, but they changed it to $250 in namecheap credits
 692 2014-02-12 06:25:18 ItSANgo_ has joined
 693 2014-02-12 06:25:26 <jcorgan> i'm not arguing ith free domains
 694 2014-02-12 06:25:45 <jcorgan> btw, whydidyoubanme.com is indeed free (though whywasibanned.com is not)
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 697 2014-02-12 06:27:24 <lechuga_> it seems like sendtoaddress should return the raw txn
 698 2014-02-12 06:27:59 <super3> hmmm it would be cool to have some bitcoin rpc domains
 699 2014-02-12 06:28:00 <lechuga_> seems silly to force you to call getrawtransaction to get enough details to properly identify the first call
 700 2014-02-12 06:29:06 <gmaxwell> This stuff is offtopic for here, guys.
 701 2014-02-12 06:29:31 <justanotheruser1> So... I was under the assumption that a transaction was propagated iff the output wasn't being used as an input in the mempool. How does tx malleability change this?
 702 2014-02-12 06:32:33 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser1: it doesn't.
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 704 2014-02-12 06:32:58 <gmaxwell> assuming that what you said means what it does.
 705 2014-02-12 06:33:19 <gmaxwell> (a tx is propagated if accepted into the mempool, which can only happen if its inputs aren't already spent there)
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 708 2014-02-12 06:34:12 <justanotheruser1> gmaxwell: but the dos is based on transaction malleability right? And the dos happens because doublespends can be propagated right? And doublespends being propagated isn't related to malleability right?
 709 2014-02-12 06:35:20 <thrasher> is the attacker still at it?
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 712 2014-02-12 06:36:24 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser1: doublespends are not propagated.
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 718 2014-02-12 06:38:32 <flotsamuel> thrasher: answered in #bitcoin
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 721 2014-02-12 06:38:51 <justanotheruser1> gmaxwell: oh? Is there somewhere I can read about how this is happening then?
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 723 2014-02-12 06:38:55 <bitblender> Are the changes to the reference client workarounds to make the reference client work with TM or is the changes planned a "real" fix to remove the possibility of TM?
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 725 2014-02-12 06:39:26 <jMyles> Where is the main discussion about whether TM is a "bug" and whether it's appropriate to "fix" it?
 726 2014-02-12 06:39:49 <bitblender> jMyles that was two days ago ;)
 727 2014-02-12 06:39:57 <jMyles> bitblender: Where can I read it?
 728 2014-02-12 06:40:13 Tr has joined
 729 2014-02-12 06:40:15 <bitblender> history of this channel and #bitcoin
 730 2014-02-12 06:40:30 <gmaxwell> bitblender: removing transaction mutability will take a very long time, and has been in progress for a very long time.
 731 2014-02-12 06:41:20 <bitblender> gmaxwell ty
 732 2014-02-12 06:41:50 <gmaxwell> (at the moment, its still possible that it is impossible to remove it completely too.)
 733 2014-02-12 06:42:04 <justanotheruser1> gmaxwell: Do you have any idea when the DoS will stop? Why are these 1 satoshi tx being propogated?
 734 2014-02-12 06:42:09 <gmaxwell> though we can remove all the forms we know of.
 735 2014-02-12 06:42:14 <jMyles> gmaxwell, bitblender: I'm surprised that there's no talk over whether or not its even desirable to remove it.
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 738 2014-02-12 06:42:52 <warren> hm, why isn't that satoshi flood being stopped by IsDust?
 739 2014-02-12 06:42:54 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser1: the 1satoshi should only be propagated only by people who have overridden the minrelayfee settings.
 740 2014-02-12 06:43:13 <gmaxwell> warren: because people have overridden that because we gave them a knob.
 741 2014-02-12 06:43:14 <justanotheruser1> gmaxwell: is that the entirety of the DoS?
 742 2014-02-12 06:43:23 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 743 2014-02-12 06:43:33 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser1: some miners are mining the 1satoshi spam too.
 744 2014-02-12 06:43:36 <warren> are they being confirmed into blocks?
 745 2014-02-12 06:43:40 <warren> ugh
 746 2014-02-12 06:43:43 <warren> why!?!
 747 2014-02-12 06:44:46 <bitblender> gmaxwell: but these changes will make it so only original txid's will make it into the blockchain, not any that has muted?
 748 2014-02-12 06:44:54 <justanotheruser1> gmaxwell: So the DoS is entirely the fault of users propagating these tx?
 749 2014-02-12 06:45:06 <bitblender> still they can fly around, but should never be confirmed into blocks?
 750 2014-02-12 06:45:18 Evolyn_ has joined
 751 2014-02-12 06:45:34 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser1: the 1satoshis? yea, pretty much.
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 753 2014-02-12 06:45:49 <gmaxwell> bitblender: what changes?
 754 2014-02-12 06:46:32 <jcorgan> aegis: ouch.  i do a lot of trading there, but glad i leave 0 BTC in the wallet there
 755 2014-02-12 06:46:40 <gmaxwell> fixing mutability? no. We fix it by first making non-canonical forms non-standard so nodes neither relay or mine them. Then after they are completely dead on the network we can introduce a new network rule that prevents anyone from mining them.
 756 2014-02-12 06:46:53 chris349 has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
 757 2014-02-12 06:46:55 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: hm?
 758 2014-02-12 06:46:59 <bitblender> gmaxwell: to the reference client to help fix the TM thing
 759 2014-02-12 06:47:07 <jcorgan> wrong channel, but looks like localbitcoins.com is down
 760 2014-02-12 06:47:18 <bitblender> after these fixes, will we only get real txid's in the blockchain?
 761 2014-02-12 06:47:43 <gmaxwell> bitblender: yes, in perhaps one or two years.
 762 2014-02-12 06:47:55 <gmaxwell> assuming that hardware wallets don't make it become infeasable to deploy.
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 765 2014-02-12 06:50:03 <bitblender> ok
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 770 2014-02-12 06:53:16 <Luke-Jr> bitblender: there's still no guarantee about immutability even then tho
 771 2014-02-12 06:53:58 Pasha is now known as Cory
 772 2014-02-12 06:54:09 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well perhaps a year from now we'll actually have one.
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 794 2014-02-12 07:16:21 <jspilman> where's the best place to go to understand the issues from txid tracking vs input address tracking? it sounds like some recent developments may need some fixes in bitcoind, or at least I think a more comprehensize guide on the "right way" people should be doing it?
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 797 2014-02-12 07:18:52 <gmaxwell> jspilman: I think your question is too vague.  Tracking for what purpose?
 798 2014-02-12 07:19:17 qwdf has joined
 799 2014-02-12 07:20:27 <jspilman> was looking at some recently press releases, and then this channel's history, and it sounds like some people are having issues with balance tracking showing dupes? so I mean tracking as in balances (unconfirmed as well as confirmed)
 800 2014-02-12 07:21:19 <jspilman> ok, I can be more specific. does bitcoind show mutliple unconfirmed transactions if txid is unique but inputs and outputs are the same?
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 803 2014-02-12 07:25:23 <jspilman> Kind of tricky terminology, there are double spends which you might actually care about tracking, and there are 'same spend / diff txid' a subclass of double-spend but actually it's the "same" transaction.
 804 2014-02-12 07:25:52 <warren> Bitcoin master is failing to build for me (and gmaxwell apparently).  http://pastebin.com/i4SVuTMY
 805 2014-02-12 07:26:10 <gmaxwell> meh, go fix it.
 806 2014-02-12 07:26:14 <Luke-Jr> lol
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 808 2014-02-12 07:26:35 <jspilman> Is bitcoind oblivious to same-spend? It seems like the best defense to malleability is not to try to prevent propagation, but to be oblivious to same-spends in any case
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 811 2014-02-12 07:26:41 <gmaxwell> I didn't mention it because whatever it is it should be trivial to fix.
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 813 2014-02-12 07:27:13 <gmaxwell> jspilman: no, thats a myopic perspective because it assumes the cosmetic problem of both potentially showing up in the transaction list is the only problem.
 814 2014-02-12 07:28:04 <gmaxwell> jspilman: a mutation also invalidates all child transactions, so it is potentially more disruptive than just the stuff in the list.
 815 2014-02-12 07:28:41 <gmaxwell> more importantly, making the non-canonical forms not propagate is the first step towards making them invalid in the blockchain entirely.
 816 2014-02-12 07:29:46 <jspilman> right, since txid is used for indexing inputs
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 819 2014-02-12 07:30:27 <jspilman> and child transactions can't be updated to reference the new txid without resigning
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 821 2014-02-12 07:31:12 <jspilman> so mutability creates a real drag on the network because you can't queue up more transactions than you have input set
 822 2014-02-12 07:32:05 <wumpus> warren: do a make clean first
 823 2014-02-12 07:32:09 <gmaxwell> well, you _can_ but there is some risk that the transactions will be invalidated in that case.
 824 2014-02-12 07:32:24 <gmaxwell> oh see thats why I didn't go further, the problem went away for me. :P
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 828 2014-02-12 07:34:20 <jspilman> so to the extend that you chain unconfirmed transactions, which may not be recommended, but does allow leeway when batching transactions, an active mutator can cause problems
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 841 2014-02-12 07:42:10 <warren> wumpus: that fixed it, didn't want to do it because my laptop is slow
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 858 2014-02-12 07:50:53 <wumpus> warren: then get a faster laptop, your development time is worth more than a stupid piece of hw :)
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 860 2014-02-12 07:50:58 <jspilman> do miners currently prioritize or penalize long unconfirmed chains? I guess profit maximization would be to include chains if fees are decent all the way down? are there downsides to including chains in blocks?
 861 2014-02-12 07:51:19 <warren> wumpus: perhaps after I get a job ... a little concerned at the moment
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 863 2014-02-12 07:51:56 <gjs278> I thought everyone here got rich off the $1k days
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 865 2014-02-12 07:54:26 <jspilman> if bitcoind receives a transaction does it detect it's a mutated same-spend and discard it? or does it let it into the mempool? if it gets into mempool, does it increase getbalance?
 866 2014-02-12 07:54:39 <BlueMatt> its a double-spend, effectively
 867 2014-02-12 07:54:41 <BlueMatt> so, no
 868 2014-02-12 07:54:47 <BlueMatt> (as in, discarded)
 869 2014-02-12 07:55:59 <wumpus> jspilman: it can affect getbalance if there are unconfirmed change outputs that get duplicated, for example if there is one version of the outgoing transaction in a block and another forever unconfirmed
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 872 2014-02-12 07:57:19 <jspilman> @wumpus that sounds like you are saying that the double-spend (actually a same-spend) does get into the mempool?
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 876 2014-02-12 07:57:36 <wumpus> jspilman: I'm talking about tha wallet; the mempool is unrelated here
 877 2014-02-12 07:57:59 <jspilman> wumpus: what is getbalance looking at for unconfirmed transactions if not the mempool?
 878 2014-02-12 07:58:04 <wumpus> jspilman: only one version of the transaction can be in the mempool, and it gets purged if that or another version makes it into a block
 879 2014-02-12 07:58:17 <gmaxwell> getbalance only ever looks at the wallet.
 880 2014-02-12 07:58:47 <jspilman> unconfirmed transactions in the wallet are distinct from transactions in mempool? I would have thought they would be a strict subset?
 881 2014-02-12 07:59:32 <wumpus> also unconfirmed outgoing transactions are counted against the balance (so that the balance is updated after you spent) -- not entirely sure there what will happen
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 883 2014-02-12 08:00:11 <jspilman> how do both get into the wallet without them both touching mempool? is this a case where one tx is in mempool+wallet and then times out only from mempool, and then the mutated tx gets into mempool and then ends up duplicated in the wallet?
 884 2014-02-12 08:00:15 <gmaxwell> say you recive a transaction for you, you add it to the wallet. Then that transaction gets doublespent and the doublespend is confirmed instead of the one in the wallet, say the double spend is also paying you.  Now it shows up in a block and you add it to your wallet too.
 885 2014-02-12 08:00:32 <gmaxwell> at the end the first transaction is still unconfirmed, but it is not in your mempool.
 886 2014-02-12 08:00:36 <wumpus> jspilman: one comes in through the mempool the other through a block
 887 2014-02-12 08:01:02 <jspilman> @gmaxwell: still unconfirmed? at the end isn't the first transaction completey dead? it should be gone from wallet and mempool
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 889 2014-02-12 08:01:35 <wumpus> yes it should be hidden from the wallet in the case it is invalidated by a block, but that doesn't happen currently
 890 2014-02-12 08:01:42 <gmaxwell> It absolutely should not be gone from the wallet.
 891 2014-02-12 08:02:09 <jspilman> if they were double or same spend? why would you want to keep the orphan in the wallet AND have it effect getbalance?
 892 2014-02-12 08:02:11 <gmaxwell> Do you want to destroy the evidence that someone defrauded you with a doublespend?  (in the general case— not even talking about mutation there)
 893 2014-02-12 08:02:32 <jspilman> I can understand keeping a log of the orphan, but orphans can't increase getbalance yes?
 894 2014-02-12 08:02:36 <gmaxwell> it doesn't effects getbalance unless you authored it, which is a special case indeed.
 895 2014-02-12 08:02:43 <jspilman> oh damn
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 897 2014-02-12 08:03:28 <jspilman> is that considered a bug?
 898 2014-02-12 08:04:17 <gmaxwell> jspilman: that your change can get mutated on you and goof stuff up? yes. Though its one we've known about for a long time.
 899 2014-02-12 08:05:18 <jspilman> gmaxwell: I mean more specifically that mutatation hitting a block cause getbalance to count the orphan and therefore appear too high?
 900 2014-02-12 08:06:01 <warren> I agree the original tx should be kept somehow in the case of a confirmed mutant.
 901 2014-02-12 08:06:14 <warren> The rest of the wallet should gracefully deal with it, but not delete it.
 902 2014-02-12 08:06:19 <warren> You need it for records.
 903 2014-02-12 08:06:27 <wumpus> jspilman: the invalidated transaction should be hidden, and no longer count toward balance, but it can't be removed
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 905 2014-02-12 08:07:34 <gmaxwell> I've long wanted a notion of negative confirmation count— how deep a reorg would have to be to have any hope of saving a transaction, I tried to implement it once but it's actually quite a gnarly layer violating mess.
 906 2014-02-12 08:07:58 <gmaxwell> If we had that, though, it would be easy, never count a negative confirmed transaction is IsConfirmed() .. mine or not.
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 908 2014-02-12 08:08:01 <jspilman> yeah, that sounds like a can of worms
 909 2014-02-12 08:08:17 <wumpus> gmaxwell: ... makes sense
 910 2014-02-12 08:09:10 <jspilman> without that currently the only way to 'cleanup' is to forget? at some point there has to be a way to release it, -10, -100...
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 912 2014-02-12 08:09:30 <wumpus> because a reorg can always bring back the transaction, so *marking* it permanently as dead is not a solution either
 913 2014-02-12 08:09:34 <wumpus> darn this is complicated...
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 915 2014-02-12 08:09:47 <gmaxwell> yea, a reorg can switch the cases.
 916 2014-02-12 08:10:05 <wumpus> or it could bring a third case in case our happy mutator continues
 917 2014-02-12 08:10:52 <wumpus> jspilman: I don't think it matters, you could keep it around forever at not much cost just hide it from the user
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 919 2014-02-12 08:12:04 <jspilman> does that require having a 'negative confirmation count' or is it enough to have an 'IsOrphan' flag?
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 924 2014-02-12 08:13:42 <gmaxwell> Sipa's proposal was 16:04 <sipa> what if we make the wallettx.isactive() criterion: mature && confirmed || inmempool
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 926 2014-02-12 08:14:51 <jspilman> would you say.... wallettx.isorphan == !wallettx.isactive
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 930 2014-02-12 08:15:57 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I can see no holes in that, though the mempool would have to be careful then never to evict your own unconfirmed transactions
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 932 2014-02-12 08:16:45 <warren> wumpus: I know at least one entity that might want to expire its own unconfirmed transactions ...
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 934 2014-02-12 08:17:43 <wumpus> gmaxwell: (as long as they're not orphaned, that is)
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 947 2014-02-12 08:24:15 <jspilman> how is it that self-authored double-spends / mutators effect getbalance while other orphans and double-spends do not?
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 951 2014-02-12 08:25:34 <gmaxwell> because unconfirmed third party transactions never change the default balance display.
 952 2014-02-12 08:25:57 <jspilman> of course, self-authored are special cased to begin with
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 954 2014-02-12 08:26:04 <jspilman> ok, thanks, makes sense.
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 958 2014-02-12 08:30:35 <jspilman> on a completely different topic, has anyone thought up an alternative to weil pairings for making an SPV-ready stealth address?
 959 2014-02-12 08:31:57 <jspilman> are there more implementations available other than that stanford library? I'm finding it a bit hard to approach
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 971 2014-02-12 08:44:05 <flotsamuel> jspilman: the sx python implementation is pretty simple
 972 2014-02-12 08:44:26 <flotsamuel> Code: https://github.com/spesmilo/sx/blob/master/src/sx-stealth-new https://github.com/spesmilo/sx/blob/master/src/sx-stealth-send https://github.com/spesmilo/sx/blob/master/src/sx-stealth-recv
 973 2014-02-12 08:44:42 <flotsamuel> Operation: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Sx/Stealth
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 987 2014-02-12 08:52:57 <flotsamuel> From what I understand that implementation was actually inspired by yours, jspilman, so maybe that's not what you looking for when you're asking for "implementations"? :)
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 991 2014-02-12 08:55:28 <Cocodude> Quick question. The patch involving bSpendZeroConfChange - is that enough to get things moving again safely, even though there will be some major throughput issues?
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 994 2014-02-12 08:59:03 <gmaxwell> jspilman: the library pond is using is another alternative.
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 996 2014-02-12 08:59:23 <gmaxwell> Cocodude: moving again for what?
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 999 2014-02-12 08:59:36 <wumpus> Cocodude: it is enough to make sure that you don't build chains of unconfirmed transactions which can be broken (and thus get stuck forever) by mutability abuse
1000 2014-02-12 08:59:51 <wumpus> malleability*
1001 2014-02-12 08:59:52 <Cocodude> gmaxwell/wumpus: Thanks, that'll do for now
1002 2014-02-12 09:00:54 <Cocodude> Idea being is that I'm going to decrease throughput by only allowing large purchases/withdrawals. If I start running out of confirmed change regularly, I'll just increase the minimum purchase/withdrawal amount.
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1019 2014-02-12 09:08:13 <koryu> hi, is thats the place to get in contact with core developers?
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1023 2014-02-12 09:11:14 <kinlo> koryu: what do you want to ask?
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1030 2014-02-12 09:13:17 <koryu> i am a developer but i never worked on an open source project. i wonder if bitcoin needs more developers and how many hours the main developers spend on bitcoin.
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1032 2014-02-12 09:13:44 <wumpus> koryu: yes, we can always use more developers!
1033 2014-02-12 09:13:47 <DiabloD3> koryu: bitcoin always needs more
1034 2014-02-12 09:13:51 <DiabloD3> damnit wumpus
1035 2014-02-12 09:13:55 <kinlo> koryu: opensource projects indeed always need more
1036 2014-02-12 09:14:02 <kinlo> koryu: you can spend as much time as you want
1037 2014-02-12 09:14:10 * DiabloD3 hunts the wumpus 
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1039 2014-02-12 09:14:43 <kinlo> koryu: gavin is fulltime, others are just writing in their free time
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1042 2014-02-12 09:16:02 <koryu> so you have a regular job and after that you spend time in developing btc. how long would a new dev need to get familiar with the code and be any useful for the team?
1043 2014-02-12 09:16:46 <kinlo> koryu: depends on the skillset of the dev... I'd recommend just to get familiar with the code first.... just go over to github, build it, read it, browse the tickets...
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1045 2014-02-12 09:16:52 <wumpus> koryu: gmaxwell had useful advice for new contributors yesterday, let me look it up
1046 2014-02-12 09:16:54 <DiabloD3> koryu: there are no full time bitcoin devs atm I think
1047 2014-02-12 09:17:03 <wumpus> <gmaxwell> The advice I give to new contributors goes like:  Test things and report bugs, start reviewing pulls, submit test cases, and add improvements in areas that you understand to solve problems that you care about.
1048 2014-02-12 09:17:03 <wumpus> <wumpus> gmaxwell: especially more people reviewing changes would be useful
1049 2014-02-12 09:17:03 <wumpus> <gmaxwell> wumpus: It also is a great way to learn about more of the software.
1050 2014-02-12 09:17:03 <wumpus> <gmaxwell> and a little more directed than just reading the whole thing yourself for the sake of reading it.
1051 2014-02-12 09:17:06 <kinlo> DiabloD3: gavin is fulltime, no ? :)
1052 2014-02-12 09:17:11 <DiabloD3> kinlo: not as dev
1053 2014-02-12 09:17:19 <DiabloD3> kinlo: he wears a bunch of hats for the foundation
1054 2014-02-12 09:17:19 <wumpus> I'm working full time on bitcoin at the moment
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1056 2014-02-12 09:17:51 <kinlo> wumpus: how do you survive ? :)
1057 2014-02-12 09:17:52 drenllateno has left ()
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1059 2014-02-12 09:18:14 <DiabloD3> hes not human
1060 2014-02-12 09:18:14 <DiabloD3> duh
1061 2014-02-12 09:18:20 <wumpus> kinlo: I don't :) no, I get a grant from the bitcoin foundation
1062 2014-02-12 09:18:39 <kinlo> wumpus: I assumed only gavin got foundation backing
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1064 2014-02-12 09:19:19 <kinlo> oh well, doesn't really matter, as long as bitcoin improves
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1066 2014-02-12 09:19:39 <wumpus> kinlo: yes, that used to be the case, but I'm also helping full time for the last few months
1067 2014-02-12 09:20:04 <koryu> ok thank you. i will start downloading the repository and take a look. is there any faq for new devs?
1068 2014-02-12 09:20:20 <DiabloD3> kinlo: you do realize who gavin is, right?
1069 2014-02-12 09:20:33 <wumpus> koryu: read the stuff in doc/ for your platform, at least
1070 2014-02-12 09:20:49 <DiabloD3> kinlo: he has an actual title at the foundation
1071 2014-02-12 09:21:04 <kinlo> DiabloD3: ofcourse...
1072 2014-02-12 09:21:19 <Plarkplark_> Are devs working on a fix for malleability? Is that even possible?
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1074 2014-02-12 09:21:41 <kinlo> Plarkplark_: there is a fix scheduled to be included in next version afaik, sipa has been working on it
1075 2014-02-12 09:21:44 <Plarkplark_> That would make your coins unspendable after each transaction, because the change address needs to confirm first...
1076 2014-02-12 09:21:59 <koryu> ok thx :) then i will continue working and take a look at this in the evening
1077 2014-02-12 09:22:01 <kinlo> koryu: there was a nice talk on fosdem about helping open source projects, perhaps you should see it
1078 2014-02-12 09:22:08 <wumpus> working on a fix for malleability *abuse*, malleability itself won't be solved that quickly if possible at all
1079 2014-02-12 09:22:24 <Plarkplark_> kinlo: not to nag, but is there an eta? Should be think hours, days or weeks or months?
1080 2014-02-12 09:22:29 <wumpus> but it should no longer be possible to use it as a DOS attack
1081 2014-02-12 09:22:42 <koryu> link me pls :)
1082 2014-02-12 09:22:43 <Plarkplark_> Sorry, I mean *abuse* fix indeed.
1083 2014-02-12 09:22:48 <kinlo> Plarkplark_: there is no real issue...
1084 2014-02-12 09:23:12 <kinlo> Plarkplark_: it's just an anoyance people implementing wallets must take notice of, not a big problem
1085 2014-02-12 09:23:16 <kinlo> koryu: http://video.fosdem.org/2014/Janson/Saturday/Software_Archaeology_for_Beginners.webm
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1087 2014-02-12 09:23:22 <wumpus> Plarkplark_: some stuff is already merged in master
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1089 2014-02-12 09:23:33 <wumpus> software archeology, haha
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1091 2014-02-12 09:23:41 <kinlo> wumpus: it was a nice talk :)
1092 2014-02-12 09:23:43 <koryu> ty
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1094 2014-02-12 09:24:13 <Plarkplark_> can we limit dust transactions further, for the time being?
1095 2014-02-12 09:24:32 <Plarkplark_> like minimal send = 0.00001 or something? making it econom. unfeasable?
1096 2014-02-12 09:24:33 <wumpus> what would that do? dust is not even the problem
1097 2014-02-12 09:25:01 <Plarkplark_> Kinda related to the spam on the network lately. but ok, yes not really related.
1098 2014-02-12 09:25:04 <Plarkplark_> i need some sleep.
1099 2014-02-12 09:25:11 <Plarkplark_> thanks for the feedback, bye.
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1103 2014-02-12 09:29:20 <koryu> ok, thx for the talk :) cya guys
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1119 2014-02-12 09:41:01 <GamerSg> Can anyone tell me if getbalance "xx" 3 is still reliable?
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1140 2014-02-12 10:00:16 <maaku> is uint256 stored little endian or big endian?
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1143 2014-02-12 10:01:06 <wumpus> where?
1144 2014-02-12 10:01:14 <maaku> in memory
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1146 2014-02-12 10:01:56 <maaku> wait i just had the bright idea of looking at openerator<
1147 2014-02-12 10:02:08 <maaku> it starts with the last element so i guess little endian. n/m
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1149 2014-02-12 10:02:22 <wumpus> yes, little endian
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1151 2014-02-12 10:03:05 <wumpus> (to be precise it's stored as a little-endian array of uint32's, if your system would be big endian you'd get some kind of hybrid...but we don't do big endian architectures here )
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1154 2014-02-12 10:04:09 <maaku> yeah, what i'm doing will sadly add one more thing that has to change for a big endian architecture
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1156 2014-02-12 10:04:15 <maaku> though i wonder if that will ever happen
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1158 2014-02-12 10:05:20 <Eliel> will there be a bugfix release soon to help wallets not become confused due to transaction malleability?
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1160 2014-02-12 10:06:38 <wumpus> maaku: well only one person has to care enough about bigendian architectures and step up and do a lot of work, it could happen (though I honestly don't think so, either, AFAIK none of th architectures in common use is be anymore)
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1162 2014-02-12 10:06:54 <maaku> Eliel: people are working on many things. when we know, it will undoubtedly be discussed here. please be patient
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1164 2014-02-12 10:07:57 <maaku> wumpus: yeah as far as I know even those which are traditionally BE now have LE emulation modes, for exactly this reason
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1174 2014-02-12 10:19:12 <GamerSg> Can anyone tell me if getbalance "accName" 3 is still reliable?
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1180 2014-02-12 10:23:35 <thermoman> is there a (private) irc channel where bitcoin devs and exchange operators can chat?
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1192 2014-02-12 10:29:20 <Datavetaren> Malleability: Can anyone give a quick comment on 2nd posting of https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=460467.0 ?
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1194 2014-02-12 10:30:22 <uiop> bitcoin devs: it would be exceedingly professional of you if you made an official statement on your position/plans for addressing (or not) the issues at hand, since the vast majority of exchange operators/etc seem to be relying 100% on bitcoind (not implying they shouldn't).
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1200 2014-02-12 10:31:03 <maaku> Datavetaren: having consensus-critical data which is not protected by hash in the merkle structure is a very bad idea
1201 2014-02-12 10:31:06 <uiop> or alternatively, concrete and explicit implementation advice to avoid the recently highlighted pitfalls
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1205 2014-02-12 10:31:40 <Datavetaren> +maaku: No, the 2nd posting, not the 1st.
1206 2014-02-12 10:31:48 <t7>  uiop remove leading zeros?
1207 2014-02-12 10:32:00 <t7> store data in the correct format?
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1209 2014-02-12 10:32:25 <t7> convert data to the correct format before comparing?
1210 2014-02-12 10:33:20 <uiop> t7: i had more in mind "you must build a database of the blockchain, create an index on txouts/blahs, and where before you were searching by txid, not you must (1) .., (2) .., (3).. , (4a) .., .."
1211 2014-02-12 10:33:44 <maaku> Datavetaren: there's no way to know what the 'smallest' transaction is
1212 2014-02-12 10:34:04 <t7> uiop: should be covered in the original paper, i think
1213 2014-02-12 10:34:06 <uiop> t7: "the options for parsing the blockchain data are as follows..."
1214 2014-02-12 10:34:08 <uiop> t7: etc
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1216 2014-02-12 10:34:27 <Datavetaren> +maaku: Are you sure? I think for the majority of cases it should be relatively easy.
1217 2014-02-12 10:35:38 <uiop> t7: perhaps, but for the benefit of all the exchange/equiv operators scrambling to properly implement automated mass-withdrawal systems, an official statement with official implementation advice would be very welcome on many different levels
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1219 2014-02-12 10:36:03 <maaku> Datavetaren: we don't know if script signatures are malleable
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1222 2014-02-12 10:36:23 <maaku> and if they are, then we don't know or may not be able know which signature form is 'smallest'
1223 2014-02-12 10:36:45 <t7> uiop: it would be helpful but it may be a lot of work
1224 2014-02-12 10:37:04 <uiop> t7: what would be a lot of work?
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1226 2014-02-12 10:37:17 <t7> all that documentation
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1228 2014-02-12 10:37:29 <Datavetaren> +maaku: I think public script signatures are mallaeble (you can push/pop dummy data, right?), but I still think it should be relatively easy to find the smallest for simple transactions. After all, it's not a TM complete language.
1229 2014-02-12 10:37:45 <maaku> Datavetaren: no i don't mean scriptSig - i mean the signature itself
1230 2014-02-12 10:37:51 Ursium has quit (Quit: Ursium)
1231 2014-02-12 10:37:54 <t7> uiop: its a good idea, you should get started and people will likely help out :)
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1233 2014-02-12 10:38:01 <maaku> it may or may not be possible to aglebraicly modify the signature so that a different number is stored, but it is still valid
1234 2014-02-12 10:38:13 <uiop> t7: for fuck's sake, i'm talking about a one page official statement and rough implementation sketch :)
1235 2014-02-12 10:38:29 <uiop> t7: are not at least some devs being paid?
1236 2014-02-12 10:38:39 <dexX7> they are
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1238 2014-02-12 10:38:42 <dexX7> at least some
1239 2014-02-12 10:38:47 <dexX7> afaik
1240 2014-02-12 10:38:54 <maaku> that's just the first example I could think of something for which it isn't possible to easily enumerate values; there are probably others
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1242 2014-02-12 10:39:08 <t7> uiop: it will not be one page lol
1243 2014-02-12 10:39:13 <uiop> t7: anyways, i'm not trying to be confrontational, just suggesting what i feel would be very welcome at this point
1244 2014-02-12 10:39:53 <Datavetaren> +maaku: Hmmm
1245 2014-02-12 10:39:56 <uiop> t7: anything can be one page, if you zoom out enough.
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1255 2014-02-12 10:45:58 <uiop> t7: said an another way, given a set of sql "CREATE TABLE"'s, what is the one-liner that would replace "SELECT .. FROM transactions WHERE txid = ..;". this would be the content of the sketch.
1256 2014-02-12 10:46:17 <uiop> (along with the "CREATE TABLE"'s)
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1258 2014-02-12 10:46:34 <maaku> uiop: no, most of the devs are not paid
1259 2014-02-12 10:46:44 <maaku> at this this is not people's day job
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1261 2014-02-12 10:46:52 <Datavetaren> +maaku: I see, you're talking about  (r, -s (mod N)) for example?
1262 2014-02-12 10:46:52 <maaku> with a small, small handful of exceptions
1263 2014-02-12 10:46:57 <uiop> maaku: ah, ok
1264 2014-02-12 10:46:59 <maaku> Datavetaren: yes
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1266 2014-02-12 10:48:16 <uiop> t7: (of course, it could be phrased in s/sql/<whatever>/)
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1269 2014-02-12 10:49:40 <maaku> uiop: though one solution is for people to step up and start paying core developers ;)
1270 2014-02-12 10:49:46 <Datavetaren> +maaku: Shouldn't it be possible to restrict that? (So it is more difficult to choose a "random" s). The rest of my argument should be ok, right?
1271 2014-02-12 10:50:09 <maaku> Datavetaren: it *is* random, and needs to be
1272 2014-02-12 10:50:26 <maaku> beyond that we don't know much about the math here. no one has explored it
1273 2014-02-12 10:50:35 <uiop> maaku: i wholeheartedly agree.
1274 2014-02-12 10:50:50 <maaku> regarding the rest of your argument; it must be all or nothing
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1276 2014-02-12 10:51:20 <uiop> t7: "uiop: its a good idea, you should get started and people will likely help out :)"
1277 2014-02-12 10:51:26 <maaku> you'd better be able to prove that the transaction you generated is the lexographically smallest possible transaction, or else you've made the situation worse
1278 2014-02-12 10:51:41 <maaku> (beause the attacker just figures out a smaller one and gets all nodes to switch to his)
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1280 2014-02-12 10:51:46 <uiop> t7: ok. however i am not a bitcoin developer, so any such "statement" from me would not be "official"
1281 2014-02-12 10:52:12 <uiop> t7: which is the more important part imo ("official statement")
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1284 2014-02-12 10:52:49 <Datavetaren> +maaku: True
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1294 2014-02-12 11:03:23 <uiop> is there a particular reason the "value" field in the "TxOut" structure is an int64_t instead of a uint64_t?
1295 2014-02-12 11:04:35 <uiop> (in other words, "value" can't be negative, can it?)
1296 2014-02-12 11:05:13 <random_cat> is there a convenient way to find all bids and offers i have open?
1297 2014-02-12 11:05:25 <uiop> random_cat: wrong channel?
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1301 2014-02-12 11:06:45 <random_cat> yes -- i thought this was ripple. sorry
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1310 2014-02-12 11:10:15 <Tykling> soooo.. I have these two transactions from yesterday that still have 0 confirmations and seem "stuck"
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1312 2014-02-12 11:11:12 <Tykling> I got this error error: {"code":-4,"message":"Error: The transaction was rejected! This might happen if some of the coins in your wallet were already spent, such as if you used a copy of wallet.dat and coins were spent in the copy but not marked as spent here."} when I ran "bitcoind sendtoaddress ...."
1313 2014-02-12 11:12:15 <Tykling> but I don't see how that could be the case :)
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1318 2014-02-12 11:15:28 <wumpus> Tykling: that problem is explained pretty well here http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1xm49o/due_to_active_malleable_transaction_relayers_it/
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1320 2014-02-12 11:16:14 <wumpus> Tykling: master already has a change to not spend unconfirmed change because of that
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1326 2014-02-12 11:18:16 <Tykling> wumpus: I see, so.. what, where are the btc now ?
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1328 2014-02-12 11:18:38 <Tykling> they will reappear in the sending wallet when bitcoind gets upgraded
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1331 2014-02-12 11:19:55 <Billdr> Can you post your transaction id Tykling? I'm curious about something.
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1333 2014-02-12 11:20:22 <Tykling> sure but I can't find it anywhere except in my local listtransactions, blockchain.info doesn't see it
1334 2014-02-12 11:20:27 <Tykling> sec
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1338 2014-02-12 11:21:53 <Billdr> Is it possible that you're attempting to spend coins from an unconfirmed transaction?
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1340 2014-02-12 11:23:48 <Billdr> I misread your initial issue Tykling. Sorry about that. Should probably wait until after coffee to speak.
1341 2014-02-12 11:24:28 <Tykling> Billdr: the last "receive" transaction I see is from january and has over 2000 confirmations so I do
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1343 2014-02-12 11:24:31 <Tykling> ok
1344 2014-02-12 11:24:33 <Tykling> :)
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1351 2014-02-12 11:29:59 <Datavetaren> +maaku: Thanks for making me wiser :) (I felt that something had to be wrong.) It looks like the malleability problem is quite unsolvable (or is there a solution long-term)?
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1355 2014-02-12 11:35:00 <BW^-> so the mtgox press release was about a non issue
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1360 2014-02-12 11:43:26 <BW^-> http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2014/02/10/mt-gox-blames-bitcoin-core-developer-greg-maxwell-responds/
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1362 2014-02-12 11:45:11 <mathis98> thats the ticket
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1368 2014-02-12 11:49:20 <BW^-> mathis98: ticket, what do you mean?
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1370 2014-02-12 11:49:43 <uiop> is there a reference for script canonicalization rules?
1371 2014-02-12 11:49:55 <mathis98> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyp9fh-u4w8
1372 2014-02-12 11:50:01 <BW^-> it was kind of unwise of them to blame the bitcoin protocol for an internal issue of their own
1373 2014-02-12 11:50:22 <mathis98> it was, but that doesnt mean there is not a wider problem
1374 2014-02-12 11:50:30 <swulf--> to be fair, bitcoind doesn't make it "trivial" to not use txids
1375 2014-02-12 11:50:49 <swulf--> listtransactions rpc call lists a txid for unconfirmed transactions - that right there is already asking to be abused
1376 2014-02-12 11:50:49 <mathis98> mark needs to deflect from the fact that hes just a bad developer... that or they need to crash the market and recoup the coins that were stolen
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1378 2014-02-12 11:52:27 <Tykling> wumpus: can you explain where the btc I tried to send are now - they appear neither at the sending or at the receiving end - do I need to wait for the new version of bitcoind or is there something I can do now ? thanks!
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1382 2014-02-12 11:53:16 <uiop> oh, n/m.
1383 2014-02-12 11:53:52 <wumpus> Tykling: if they're only held up by a never-confirming transaction they're still in your wallet... with -salvagewallet -rescan  you get rid of them and see the true balance (but do this with a copy, as you'll lose all metadata like labels)
1384 2014-02-12 11:54:07 <wumpus> Tykling: and yes, there will be an update that cleans this up
1385 2014-02-12 11:54:20 <Tykling> wumpus: <3 awesome, thank you for your help!
1386 2014-02-12 11:54:40 <uiop> what's the max number of operands a script opcode has?
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1389 2014-02-12 11:55:01 <Cocodude> I've got a nasty, hacky idea to increase throughput of Bitcoin transactions (i.e. the number of unspent inputs available that have > 0 confirmations).
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1396 2014-02-12 11:56:18 <Cocodude> Can I: 1. Send 10 BTC to another Bitcoin address from wallet A. 2. Send 1 BTC back, wait for a confirm, send another BTC back, wait for a confirm etc. until all are sent. 3. End up with 10 usable 1 BTC inputs at the first wallet?
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1398 2014-02-12 11:56:53 <BW^-> anyhow i guess it's positive that the market learns to be resistent against weird news.
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1402 2014-02-12 11:57:15 <airbreather> uiop: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script -- I think it would depend on how you define "operand".  For my latest project, I'm defining an operand as "number of items that the script runner has to pop off the stack", which can be indefinitely many with things like OP_PICK / OP_ROLL
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1404 2014-02-12 11:57:24 <wumpus> Cocodude: yes, you can do a sendmany to yourself with 10 1 BTC outputs for example
1405 2014-02-12 11:57:41 <wumpus> Cocodude: once that confirms you'll have 10 1 BTC inputs
1406 2014-02-12 11:57:45 <Cocodude> wumpus: Ah, that's an even nicer idea. Thanks. I think that'll help as a workaround.
1407 2014-02-12 11:58:10 <uiop> airbreather: nice, thanks
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1409 2014-02-12 11:59:47 <uiop> airbreather: oh, right. by "operand" i meant "data following the opcode in the insn stream that is associated with that opcode"
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1412 2014-02-12 12:02:18 <airbreather> uiop: 0x4e 0xFF 0xFF 0xFF 0xFF (+4294967295 bytes)
1413 2014-02-12 12:02:33 <airbreather> Gonna be hard to beat that one
1414 2014-02-12 12:04:04 <uiop> i'll issue you a preliminary "heh", to be confimed once i "get it" :)
1415 2014-02-12 12:04:47 <uiop> ah
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1417 2014-02-12 12:05:00 <uiop> OP_PUSHDATA4 <size> <data>
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1420 2014-02-12 12:05:24 <wumpus> I suspect noone is going to need OP_PUSHDATA4 any time this century :)
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1423 2014-02-12 12:06:56 <airbreather> wumpus: well.. OP_PUSHDATA2 only lets you push a single data field up to 64k onto the stack... are you saying 64k ought to be enough for anyone?
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1427 2014-02-12 12:08:30 <wumpus> airbreather: yes, but I said suspect, not I know for sure!
1428 2014-02-12 12:08:46 <wumpus> airbreather: so I don't hope that my statement will be (mis)quoted by generation after generation of trolls... the horror :)
1429 2014-02-12 12:08:50 Inception has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1430 2014-02-12 12:08:55 <airbreather> :-D
1431 2014-02-12 12:09:32 [EddyF]_ has joined
1432 2014-02-12 12:10:27 <uiop> wumpus: i'm marking you down as saying "64k is enough for anyone!"
1433 2014-02-12 12:10:44 <uiop> :)
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1436 2014-02-12 12:11:34 * uiop feels like he heard that one before, right after being told how you use to have to walk to school uphill both ways
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1438 2014-02-12 12:12:59 <wumpus> hehehe
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1440 2014-02-12 12:18:26 <uiop> ok, so the part i'm unclear on is whether (suppose you now need to search for a transaction you've issued which may be mangled to the maximum possible degree), do you need to (after you've narrowed it down/whatever) essentially canonicalize the scripts of all possible candidates in order to determine if a transaction really is the one you issued?
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1443 2014-02-12 12:19:02 <jgarzik> uiop, you'll never find all possible sources of malleability
1444 2014-02-12 12:19:05 <uiop> i feel like you must be able do the equivalent by implication somehow
1445 2014-02-12 12:19:09 <jgarzik> uiop, look at the unspent outputs
1446 2014-02-12 12:19:29 <uiop> jgarzik: ah, ok
1447 2014-02-12 12:19:53 <airbreather> jgarzik: unspent or spent?
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1451 2014-02-12 12:21:00 <jgarzik> airbreather, to be clear, you look monitor outputs to observe them being spent, or not
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1453 2014-02-12 12:22:47 <uiop> oh. i see now. nice
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1455 2014-02-12 12:24:47 <airbreather> yeah... watch for the exact outputs your transaction is spending... if you've issued a signed transaction that spends that set of outputs, then anything that spends any of those same outputs is either "your transaction", a double-spend you issued, a compromised private key, or sky-is-falling day
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1457 2014-02-12 12:25:18 <uiop> jgarzik: so the "best" you can do then is to be able to detect if outputs have been spent or not, but not whether your transaction has *enabled those outputs to be* spent?
1458 2014-02-12 12:25:54 <uiop> err, wait, that might be misguided question
1459 2014-02-12 12:25:56 * uiop thinks
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1463 2014-02-12 12:26:35 <Datavetaren> @jgarzik: Could a transaction hash be based by not including the ECDSA signature? (assuming things like (r, -s (mod N)) is the problem)
1464 2014-02-12 12:27:09 <jgarzik> Datavetaren, there is the SignatureHash standard already
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1466 2014-02-12 12:27:34 <uiop> airbreather: ah, i didn't see your comment. i see.
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1469 2014-02-12 12:28:34 <Datavetaren> @jgarzik: Do you have a pointer to some online doc so I can read and learn?
1470 2014-02-12 12:28:46 <uiop> airbreather, jgarzik: ok, perfect, i understand now. thanks
1471 2014-02-12 12:29:55 <jgarzik> Datavetaren, just the source code, for that
1472 2014-02-12 12:30:13 mambru has joined
1473 2014-02-12 12:30:15 <Datavetaren> @jgarzik: That's fine... which file?
1474 2014-02-12 12:31:26 <jgarzik> Datavetaren, script.cpp
1475 2014-02-12 12:31:40 <Datavetaren> @jgarzik: Thanks!
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1478 2014-02-12 12:36:06 <Datavetaren> @jgarzik: Is it really possible to solve the malleability problem at all? (Even long-term?)
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1480 2014-02-12 12:36:50 <jgarzik> Datavetaren, not 100%, no
1481 2014-02-12 12:37:00 <jgarzik> Datavetaren, it is "solved" by getting your transaction confirmed
1482 2014-02-12 12:37:33 <Datavetaren> @jgarzik: It's because of ECDSA modulos, right?
1483 2014-02-12 12:37:44 _ImI_ has joined
1484 2014-02-12 12:37:45 <Datavetaren> @jgarzik: Yes, we can always live with it.
1485 2014-02-12 12:37:52 <jgarzik> Datavetaren, not one specific reason
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1487 2014-02-12 12:39:00 <Datavetaren> @jgarzik: Well, if it wasn't for those ECDSA modulos you could always come up with a unique encoding? Or are there other possible sources?
1488 2014-02-12 12:39:15 <obsidion> does the SignatureHash standard generate the txid hash by hashing the transaction excluding all of the input scriptSig fields?
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1490 2014-02-12 12:39:35 <jgarzik> Datavetaren, other sources
1491 2014-02-12 12:39:40 <jgarzik> obsidion, something like that, yes
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1496 2014-02-12 12:44:16 <Datavetaren> @jgarzik: Well, I guess it isn't too bad anyway, because you could hash the output addresses and use that as a key to see when they show up in the blockchain, regardless of txhash. The only problem is that some wallet implementations thought that it would be safe to immediately reuse change back to itself without waiting for confirmations.
1497 2014-02-12 12:44:21 <obsidion> is there any reason why the scriptSig would need to be included when generating the txid hash? wouldn't it always just be <sig> <pubKey>? (which would always be verified during OP_CHECKSIG anyway and so wouldn't need to be included in the hash to prevent tampering?)
1498 2014-02-12 12:44:24 <jeremias> what excatly is the information, which can be changed for the malleable transactions?
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1500 2014-02-12 12:45:46 <jeremias> eg. what information do the attackers modify in the transaction
1501 2014-02-12 12:46:45 <jgarzik> jeremias, anything that is not digitally signed, which is mostly trivial details like binary encoding changes
1502 2014-02-12 12:46:56 <jgarzik> jeremias, no payment details may be changed
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1504 2014-02-12 12:47:49 <jgarzik> obsidion, the definition of a txhash is the hash of a tx.  it is required by the protocol at various stages.
1505 2014-02-12 12:49:06 <obsidion> i see, so it's not something easily changed because all the clients and miners are currently going about it in a particular (the originally specified) way
1506 2014-02-12 12:49:16 <Datavetaren> @jgarzik, jeremias: But that would be quite easy to guard against with ASN.1 DER encoding. The problem I see it is protecting against stuff like (r, -s (mod N)). That I don't see a solution for.
1507 2014-02-12 12:49:23 <jeremias> can lock_time be changed?
1508 2014-02-12 12:49:52 <jgarzik> jeremias, no
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1516 2014-02-12 12:52:35 <jeremias> hmm, because I found transaction, for which sendmany has succesfully generated txid, but now the transaction is not found anywhere, and I can't get the transaction data using getrawtransaction
1517 2014-02-12 12:52:43 <jeremias> now just thinking, what are the risks here
1518 2014-02-12 12:53:03 orweinberger has joined
1519 2014-02-12 12:53:33 <jeremias> if I can assume if that transaction will never show up or not
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1523 2014-02-12 12:56:34 <obsidion> is there any practical reason why an opcode would be used in scriptSig?
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1527 2014-02-12 12:59:48 <obsidion> Datavetaren: is it possible to differentiate/discern if a signature was generated using (r,s) or (r, -s (mod N))?
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1531 2014-02-12 13:02:42 <Datavetaren> obsidion: There can be many other ways of mathmatically producing equivalent valid signatures. (r, -s (mod N)) is just one example.
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1534 2014-02-12 13:05:14 <obsidion> sounds like it would have been better if the original specification definition of a txid was the hash of a tx excluding the scriptSig fields
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1537 2014-02-12 13:06:39 <obsidion> is there any downside to this method? (besides the fact that it's already implemented differently in all of the clients)
1538 2014-02-12 13:07:10 <Datavetaren> obsidion: I think there are many more sources. @jgarzik hinted that it cannot be 100% fixed. Using transaction hashes for id's to track transactions is a dead end.
1539 2014-02-12 13:08:29 <Datavetaren> obsidion: To track your transaction, compute a hash of the output addresses (used in the transaction) and use that as a key to see when they show up in the blockchain.
1540 2014-02-12 13:08:38 <wumpus> obsidion: there are may more sources of malleability, see https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691
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1542 2014-02-12 13:09:59 <jgarzik> obsidion, "should have been" does not matter... changing should-have-beens requires a hard fork.
1543 2014-02-12 13:10:12 deanclkclk has joined
1544 2014-02-12 13:10:14 <Datavetaren> +wumpus: Thanks for that link
1545 2014-02-12 13:11:53 Ursium has joined
1546 2014-02-12 13:12:01 <obsidion> jgarzik, good point
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1552 2014-02-12 13:13:32 <honeymonster> Forgive my ignorance, but isn't the "quick fix" for exchanges simply to keep a hash of the input/output/amount and use that instead of the TxID?
1553 2014-02-12 13:14:00 <Datavetaren> honeymonster: Yes, but you need to be careful how you manage change as well.
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1555 2014-02-12 13:15:08 <honeymonster> Ah okay, what do you mean by being careful?
1556 2014-02-12 13:15:47 <c--O-O> so where is the ticket for the mutation fix everyone is talking about, about the mutationable txid. or something
1557 2014-02-12 13:15:54 <Datavetaren> Most wallets (I think it includes Bitstamp) reused the change immediately before waiting for confirmation. This is not safe because txhashes can change until confirmed.
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1559 2014-02-12 13:16:39 <c--O-O> are people working on this?
1560 2014-02-12 13:16:45 <honeymonster> Aha, I see
1561 2014-02-12 13:16:49 <Datavetaren> honeymonster: So this means that exchanges would have to split up their coins in reasonable chunks to maximize throughput.
1562 2014-02-12 13:17:02 <jgarzik> yes
1563 2014-02-12 13:17:26 <c--O-O> how can I get a confirmation that work is being done on this, MtGox announced that he will be working with devs. but is there any way to confirm this thru a pull ticket or pull request?
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1567 2014-02-12 13:17:45 <Datavetaren> honeymonster: Perhaps a malloc() type of algorithm with round robin on the free lists?
1568 2014-02-12 13:17:52 <honeymonster> Sounds like it could be a pain to manage multiple wallets, but definitely sounds beneficial
1569 2014-02-12 13:18:02 <wumpus> c--O-O: see the recent issues / commits on github
1570 2014-02-12 13:18:11 <c--O-O> I haven't seen anyone very cooperative with mtgox, so I'm asking is there a pull request?
1571 2014-02-12 13:18:18 <c--O-O> where is the github.
1572 2014-02-12 13:18:25 ejhong has joined
1573 2014-02-12 13:18:25 <c--O-O> and do you know wumpus?
1574 2014-02-12 13:18:37 <wumpus> do some research of your own, if we spend all day talking to people here no work would get done at all
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1577 2014-02-12 13:19:13 <c--O-O> well in the space of time you took to write that long sentence you could have said "yes".
1578 2014-02-12 13:19:18 <c--O-O> in my opinion
1579 2014-02-12 13:19:34 <wumpus> <jgarzik> yes
1580 2014-02-12 13:20:17 <c--O-O> I'm not a programmer on bitcoin, so it would be daunting, a simple yes or no from you , the experts would give me, and others, a clarification. We aren't all expert githubbers.
1581 2014-02-12 13:20:37 <honeymonster> Datavetaren: that sounds like it would work
1582 2014-02-12 13:21:15 <c--O-O> anyone, with a christian soul? would mind giving me this update?
1583 2014-02-12 13:21:38 Ursium has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1584 2014-02-12 13:21:45 c--O-O has joined
1585 2014-02-12 13:22:18 <c--O-O> OH
1586 2014-02-12 13:22:22 <c--O-O> I see now
1587 2014-02-12 13:23:31 <c--O-O> jgarzik: answered a yes, but I didn't know if it was to me, or to other chatters. because it was just a yes with no nickname in front.
1588 2014-02-12 13:23:51 <c--O-O> you could have added my nick, is it that bad?
1589 2014-02-12 13:24:12 brand0 has joined
1590 2014-02-12 13:25:07 <c--O-O> are you guys happy to do this fix for mtgox?
1591 2014-02-12 13:25:37 Starduster has joined
1592 2014-02-12 13:26:01 armabilo has joined
1593 2014-02-12 13:26:31 <jgarzik> c--O-O, You chatter like a hen.  Take chatter to #bitcoin.  This channel is for development questions and discussion only.
1594 2014-02-12 13:27:37 <honeymonster> Datavetaren: Thanks for your help, appreciate it
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1597 2014-02-12 13:29:12 <Aahzmundus> jgarzik: I remember you saying the payment protocol was live on bitpay a few days ago, would parts of how the payment protocal works, passing the transaction back the the merchent AND broadcasting it, help to resolve transaction maliability attacks? or is it mostly unrelated...
1598 2014-02-12 13:29:44 TheBison has joined
1599 2014-02-12 13:29:51 <jgarzik> Aahzmundus, possibly help mitigate
1600 2014-02-12 13:30:04 thijs has joined
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1602 2014-02-12 13:31:44 <v3ry3l33te> is there testnet version of fixes?
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1610 2014-02-12 13:34:21 <Datavetaren> @jgarzik: Looking at this list: https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691 it seems with (1)-(6) would cover at least the basic transactions, correct?
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1613 2014-02-12 13:35:42 <jgarzik> Datavetaren, -ENOPARSE your question
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1620 2014-02-12 13:39:20 <morcos> Is the eventual goal to reallow the spending of zero-conf outputs by making txid's somehow immutable or is that neither feasible or desirable (i think it is desirable)?
1621 2014-02-12 13:39:28 <Datavetaren> @jgarzik: For example, take item (7): "If a scriptPubKey starts with an OP_DROP", so what about just having "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 ... OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG", would item (7) still be relevant.
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1623 2014-02-12 13:40:00 <jgarzik> morcos, zero-conf transactions will never be fully secure
1624 2014-02-12 13:40:12 <jgarzik> that goes far beyond malleability
1625 2014-02-12 13:40:53 <jgarzik> Datavetaren, punt, coding
1626 2014-02-12 13:41:26 <Datavetaren> @jgarzik: The ending dot should have been a questionmark.
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1629 2014-02-12 13:42:55 <morcos> understood, but seems like one could imagine scenarios in which there is enough out of band security with the counterparty (such as a change output)
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1634 2014-02-12 13:45:57 <uiop> i've written up an explicit worked example of identifying all malleated transactions of a given original transaction (in sql), which i think is correct (?) http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=nfT1xukg
1635 2014-02-12 13:46:26 <uiop> so all you have to do (as jgarzik and airbreather said) is find all other transactions with identical txins?
1636 2014-02-12 13:46:28 <Datavetaren> @jgarzik et al: Ok, cool, I understand the sitauation much more now. And thanks for making me wiser :)
1637 2014-02-12 13:48:24 <uiop> ("identical txin" := identical (hash,index))
1638 2014-02-12 13:48:56 Tray_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1639 2014-02-12 13:48:56 <uiop> actually, i didn't check the indexes there
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1645 2014-02-12 13:53:05 <uiop> (and i didn't check that all returned txns had same # of txins/txouts)
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1652 2014-02-12 13:55:40 <btcinsight> Is some consensus emerging to address malleability issues?
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1659 2014-02-12 13:57:54 <jeremias> btcinsight: I guess that now there is a consensus that it is an issue, which is a good thing :)
1660 2014-02-12 13:57:58 Raziel has joined
1661 2014-02-12 13:58:09 <jeremias> but I don't really know, on which timetable there is an update coming to the binary
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1663 2014-02-12 13:59:18 <phillipsjk> btcinsight, and that a proper fix will take years. Work-around is to track coin inputs, not txids
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1665 2014-02-12 14:00:04 <phillipsjk> coin inputs use txids, but they are buried in the block-chain and can not be easily changed.
1666 2014-02-12 14:00:16 <jeremias> hmm, coin inputs?
1667 2014-02-12 14:00:19 <jeremias> what do you mean
1668 2014-02-12 14:00:20 datagutt has joined
1669 2014-02-12 14:00:31 <BitCoroner> jeremias: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#tx
1670 2014-02-12 14:00:34 <Apocalyptic> <phillipsjk> coin inputs use txids // that part only doesn't make sense
1671 2014-02-12 14:00:59 <uiop> the hash in txin's he means?
1672 2014-02-12 14:01:02 <jeremias> well, coin inputs for a single tx can be a quite long...
1673 2014-02-12 14:01:03 <Apocalyptic> they are referred to by their txids, but that has nothing to do with the resulting txid
1674 2014-02-12 14:01:41 <phillipsjk> what uiop said.
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1676 2014-02-12 14:02:01 <BitCoroner> what i think phillipsjk means is that it's ok to use tx id's from transactions that are confirmed
1677 2014-02-12 14:02:11 ejhong has joined
1678 2014-02-12 14:02:30 <phillipsjk> You have to, AFAIK.
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1680 2014-02-12 14:03:59 <jeremias> hmm
1681 2014-02-12 14:04:03 <jeremias> but what about bitcoind
1682 2014-02-12 14:04:06 <btcinsight> Do you know if the fix will be more like sipa BIP, or something else (like not hashing scriptsig)
1683 2014-02-12 14:04:29 <jeremias> I don't see the txid stuff as a problem
1684 2014-02-12 14:04:52 <jeremias> eg. in our case (localbitcoins), we haven't had cases where someone tries to trick customer support to rebroadcast the tx
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1686 2014-02-12 14:05:07 <jeremias> but the bitcoind is clearly messed up etc
1687 2014-02-12 14:05:15 <phillipsjk> Gmaxwell was saying the fix to stop relaying modified transactions (ans non-standard), then eventually make them illegal.
1688 2014-02-12 14:05:38 <jeremias> so there is a way to check if a tx is modified or not?
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1690 2014-02-12 14:06:13 <Apocalyptic> phillipsjk, non-standard tx are relayed ?
1691 2014-02-12 14:07:20 <phillipsjk> If you see two transaction spending the same inputs, something is up.
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1693 2014-02-12 14:07:37 <phillipsjk> Apocalyptic, s/ans/as3
1694 2014-02-12 14:07:37 <uiop> jeremias: no, but you can search for all transaction which have been included in a block and which have identical txins to the transaction you originally issued. any such transaction must be either identical to or malleated versions of the tx you originally issued
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1696 2014-02-12 14:07:46 * phillipsjk needs 2 more hours of sleep
1697 2014-02-12 14:08:30 <brand0> all Gox needed to do was wait until big enough confirmation before trusting tx id, no?
1698 2014-02-12 14:08:31 <Apocalyptic> <phillipsjk> If you see two transaction spending the same inputs, something is up. // yeah but this is nothing new, you're describing a classic old double spend
1699 2014-02-12 14:08:56 <jeremias> uiop: the problem is, that I have a txid, I can get the info using gettransaction command, but not with getrawtransaction
1700 2014-02-12 14:09:02 <jeremias> uiop: so I can't see the inputs :(
1701 2014-02-12 14:09:32 <uiop> jeremias: i'm not sure how to actually accomplish this with bitcoind however
1702 2014-02-12 14:09:58 <jeremias> :(
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1705 2014-02-12 14:10:55 <jgarzik> jeremias, That is quite odd.  if a tx is visible via gettransaction, getrawtransaction should also work.
1706 2014-02-12 14:11:38 <phedny> running bitcoind with txindex=1 on testnet requires about 600M disk storage; is it known how much is required for mainnet?
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1710 2014-02-12 14:13:05 <uiop> phedny: iirc .bitcoind folder was 17G+ as of december-something
1711 2014-02-12 14:13:24 <jeremias> "error: {"code":-5,"message":"No information available about transaction"}"
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1713 2014-02-12 14:13:29 <phedny> uiop: okay, thanks :)
1714 2014-02-12 14:13:41 <jeremias> however the transaction is not seen on the bitcoin network either
1715 2014-02-12 14:14:13 <jouke> jeremias: try the debug.log for that transaction.
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1722 2014-02-12 14:18:29 <jeremias> to me it seems, that it had elsewhere spent output
1723 2014-02-12 14:18:41 <jeremias> however debug.log doesn't seem to tell which output tx the tx had used
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1725 2014-02-12 14:19:10 <jeremias> hmm no, it tells that
1726 2014-02-12 14:19:22 <jeremias> and the used output is not seen on the network either
1727 2014-02-12 14:20:21 <jeremias> ok, it is a change address
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1746 2014-02-12 14:42:46 <helo> phedny: that 17GB is without -txindex=1
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1768 2014-02-12 14:57:12 <denisx> is there a way to tell bitcoind to run only with ipv6
1769 2014-02-12 14:57:18 <denisx> even outgoing
1770 2014-02-12 14:57:37 <wumpus> probably something like: -onlynet=ipv6
1771 2014-02-12 14:58:08 <TheWildHorse_> Can someone help me out, semi-new to this stuff, I have a general understanding how bitcoin works but am wondering something. I'm trying to use the blockchain API (which is down right now, I know, I know) to make a list of recent transactions on a single adress. Now, how can I determine if the account recieved bitcoin or if it sent them. Do I have to iterate trough all of the senders and recievers until I find my adress?
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1781 2014-02-12 15:01:10 <uiop> helo: that 17GB is w/ -txindex=1, but as of mid-december
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1784 2014-02-12 15:02:58 <denisx> wumpus: that did not work ;(
1785 2014-02-12 15:05:40 <TheWildHorse_> Noone willing to help?
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1788 2014-02-12 15:06:30 <pigeons> TheWildHorse_: not with bc.i api
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1790 2014-02-12 15:07:24 <denisx> wumpus: hmm, my fault, it seems to work, thanks!
1791 2014-02-12 15:07:30 <wumpus> denisx: maybe IPv6 instead of ipv6
1792 2014-02-12 15:07:37 <wumpus> denisx: command line options are fiddly
1793 2014-02-12 15:07:42 <wumpus> denisx: ok great!
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1796 2014-02-12 15:08:16 <uiop> TheWildHorse_: their api docs should help (i would, but i'm unfamiliar)
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1798 2014-02-12 15:08:23 <denisx> wumpus: it seems outgoing is now ipv6 only and the incoming port is also ipv4
1799 2014-02-12 15:08:29 <denisx> but that can be firewalled
1800 2014-02-12 15:08:49 <wumpus> right, it's probably not the most tested setup
1801 2014-02-12 15:09:02 * jgarzik misses that IRC bot, that used to spit out one-liners on each newly filed issue or pull req
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1803 2014-02-12 15:09:24 <denisx> wumpus: but it should be when tor is part of it
1804 2014-02-12 15:10:31 <TheWildHorse_> uiop: They aren't really written well, just show you the URL to access the JSON and the example output
1805 2014-02-12 15:11:50 <wumpus> denisx: yeah - there's onlynet=Tor too, my gut feeling says that gets a lot more testing than ipv6 :)
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1808 2014-02-12 15:13:10 <uiop> TheWildHorse_: what concrete query do you want to perform?
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1812 2014-02-12 15:14:49 <TheWildHorse_> uiop: Well, I recieve a list of transaction and each transaction has it's inputs and outputs. How can I check if the transaction withdrew or deposited the funds from or to my adress
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1826 2014-02-12 15:22:03 <chmod755> random question: is there a bitcoind without a wallet? (just relaying transactions and the blockchain)
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1828 2014-02-12 15:23:33 <uiop> TheWildHorse_: you can lookup all transactions associated with your address with the "Single Address" queries https://blockchain.info/api/blockchain_api
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1830 2014-02-12 15:26:08 <chmod755> uiop, blockchain.info is currently fixing the api
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1834 2014-02-12 15:27:47 <uiop> it looks like they've got DOS guards on, with a timed redirect that breaks non-browsers..
1835 2014-02-12 15:28:16 <chmod755> yep...
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1837 2014-02-12 15:28:53 <chmod755> CloudFlare...
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1839 2014-02-12 15:28:58 <mids> such as authentication with the android client
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1846 2014-02-12 15:31:48 <jgarzik> chmod755, Yes, disable-wallet support is a new feature in forthcoming 0.9
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1848 2014-02-12 15:32:06 <jgarzik> chmod755, You may disable the wallet at runtime, or compile it out at compile time.
1849 2014-02-12 15:32:27 <jgarzik> I call it "router mode"
1850 2014-02-12 15:32:40 <jgarzik> or something like that
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1853 2014-02-12 15:33:00 <chmod755> jgarzik, oh nice
1854 2014-02-12 15:33:32 <chmod755> jgarzik, btw bootstrap.dat is being downloaded a lot http://imgur.com/FqiaCi8
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1858 2014-02-12 15:34:19 <ikbenwouter> yes that torrent is pretty active lately
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1874 2014-02-12 15:45:52 <jgarzik> chmod755, yay :)
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1893 2014-02-12 15:49:16 <wilsonnl> anyone here that can help me out with compiling litecoin on OSX 10.9 (mavericks). installed dependencies with macports (sudo port install boost db48 qt4-mac openssl miniupnpc git) and cloned litecoin from github. When compiling I'm getting this: http://pastebin.com/TwUDw8Km
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1944 2014-02-12 16:03:15 <TD> good evening
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2069 2014-02-12 16:42:16 <andytoshi> wsirc_9586: please fix your connection
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2080 2014-02-12 16:47:02 <murr4y> hi all, is it correct that testnet-seed.bitcoin.petertodd.org is a dns for active nodes in the testnet?
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2169 2014-02-12 17:16:43 <chavenorbos> test
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2175 2014-02-12 17:19:27 <davout> how can i get the transaction confirmations for a TX that's not in my wallet using bitcoind ?
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2178 2014-02-12 17:20:10 <davout> i chained getrawtx and decoderawtx but i have no indication of the block it's included in, or of the confirmations
2179 2014-02-12 17:20:35 <davout> gettx doesn't provide data for transactions that aren't relevant to keys i have in my wallet
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2188 2014-02-12 17:24:03 <Apocalyptic> davout, you have to run bitcoind with -txindex
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2192 2014-02-12 17:24:29 <davout> Apocalyptic: will it reindex everything when i start running it, taking ages ?
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2195 2014-02-12 17:24:38 <Apocalyptic> yes
2196 2014-02-12 17:25:23 <davout> Apocalyptic: ok, thanks, it solves my problem, thank you very much! you just earned yourself a beer at the next meetup
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2198 2014-02-12 17:25:42 <Apocalyptic> heh, I would like LemonWay validating my acc better :)
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2200 2014-02-12 17:25:53 <davout> Apocalyptic: you're on my list
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2202 2014-02-12 17:26:37 <thermoman> davout: -txindex=1 takes some time the first run
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2204 2014-02-12 17:26:57 <thermoman> 0.5-some hours
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2207 2014-02-12 17:27:15 <davout> i assume something in the order of a couple of hours, that doesn't really matter, it solves my problem, even if it solves it a couple hours later :-)
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2211 2014-02-12 17:28:40 <chavenorbos> What is the most effective way to check an ACCOUNT to see if funds have been sent to it (conf=7)?   I will have 1,000's of accounts.
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2221 2014-02-12 17:31:02 <davout> chavenorbos: getbalance accepts an account parameter
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2252 2014-02-12 17:40:43 <chavenorbos> davout: The user is exchanging the bitcoins for ingame currency.  At the moment each user get's their own ADDRESS to send bitcoins to.  The issue with getbalance() is this dosn't reflect the ingame balance.  Thus I'd have to be keeping track on both ends.  This is pretty tough when I have over 1,000's of accounts and would like to be checking for incoming transactions every minute.   Is
2253 2014-02-12 17:40:43 <chavenorbos> there anyway to mark off a transaction so it isn't returned when pulling list of transactions in the future?
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2259 2014-02-12 17:42:31 <maaku> chavenorbos: no :(
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2264 2014-02-12 17:43:26 <jcorgan> davout: the first time reindexing with -txindex (for me) takes overnight
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2278 2014-02-12 17:48:03 <Jankxed> Sorry, is the DDos still in full swing?
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2289 2014-02-12 17:52:54 <phantomcircuit> jcorgan, only if your computer is terrible
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2291 2014-02-12 17:52:56 <phantomcircuit>  :)
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2293 2014-02-12 17:53:05 <phantomcircuit> (something tells me davout has a proper server to run this one)
2294 2014-02-12 17:53:41 <jcorgan> EC2 m1.small :)
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2301 2014-02-12 17:54:46 <davout> phantomcircuit: i have a couple to choose from, is it CPU bound or IO bound? I'm gonna run it on a regular computer for today and I can choose between a ok cpu /w SSD or a normal HDD with much better CPU
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2316 2014-02-12 17:58:59 <jcorgan> davout: it is definitely I/O bound, as it is reindexing blocks already stored locally
2317 2014-02-12 17:59:09 <davout> ok, so SSD it shall be
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2320 2014-02-12 18:00:02 * jcorgan wonders if there is a way to do this temporarily on a ramdisk
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2324 2014-02-12 18:01:22 <andytoshi> jcorgan: you can mount a local tmpfs, if you have 20 gigs of ram..
2325 2014-02-12 18:01:43 <andytoshi> on .bitcoin
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2329 2014-02-12 18:02:24 <jcorgan> sure.  but wonder if there is a way to leave blockchain on HDD and just have the indexes in RAM
2330 2014-02-12 18:02:48 <jcorgan> until done, then copy them back
2331 2014-02-12 18:02:55 <jcorgan> maybe with symlink on dir
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2337 2014-02-12 18:04:46 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: there is some option to use more RAM
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2342 2014-02-12 18:06:14 <jcorgan> cool.  i've already reindexed (also with addrindex=1) on all my nodes, so no worries, but good to know for the future, thanks
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2345 2014-02-12 18:06:58 <phillipsjk> jcorgan, most OSs try to do good a good job of disk caching anyway.
2346 2014-02-12 18:07:12 <davout> with addrindex i can get all the information for any address? that's really neat
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2349 2014-02-12 18:07:42 <jcorgan> it seems controversial, but PR #3652 gives you that (originally implemented by sipa as #2802)
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2351 2014-02-12 18:07:52 <davout> guess that's the correct time to say thank you for the hard work done!
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2354 2014-02-12 18:09:32 ahmed_bodi is now known as cryptoninja
2355 2014-02-12 18:09:39 <jcorgan> i just refreshed it to work with current master
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2359 2014-02-12 18:10:19 * Luke-Jr notes addresses are essentially a non-malleable txid ;)
2360 2014-02-12 18:10:36 <jcorgan> just fyi with addrindex the blockchain+database is currently 22G
2361 2014-02-12 18:10:53 cryptoninja is now known as ahmed_bodi
2362 2014-02-12 18:11:00 <jcorgan> +1 Luke-Jr
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2369 2014-02-12 18:12:31 <phillipsjk> Luke-Jr, if you are naughty, addresses can refer to more than 1 tx :)
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2378 2014-02-12 18:13:48 <Luke-Jr> phillipsjk: I'm okay with naughty uses having trouble :P
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2382 2014-02-12 18:14:56 <phillipsjk> OT, but I am planning on using your pool until I get my Bitcoin node up. Got a mining blade sitting idle ATM.
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2389 2014-02-12 18:16:48 <Doobie420> hello, could one of the devs potentially hop over to #mooncoin and assist those devs with some wallet compiling issues they are having? They are trying to implement the gravity well fix and are having issues
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2391 2014-02-12 18:17:18 <Doobie420> i know mooncoin is based on dogecoin, which is based off of litecoin, but any help would be appreciated
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2394 2014-02-12 18:18:03 <Doobie420> specifically deaconboogie and syntaks are working on it
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2501 2014-02-12 18:56:18 <SirDefaced> ls
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2513 2014-02-12 18:59:29 <bitblender> :wq
2514 2014-02-12 19:00:02 <chavenorbos> Does moving bitcoins from one ACCOUNT to another create a new bitcoin transaction?
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2523 2014-02-12 19:02:25 <SirDefaced> for some reason trying to compile with gitian is being difficult today
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2526 2014-02-12 19:03:06 <SirDefaced> it compiled all the deps fine, go to compile the qt's says I cant connect to the vm -,-
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2548 2014-02-12 19:11:04 <SirDefaced> ssh: connect to host localhost port 2223: Connection refused
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2580 2014-02-12 19:22:27 <jgarzik> ;;kickban wsirc_9586
2581 2014-02-12 19:22:28 <gribble> Error: "kickban" is not a valid command.
2582 2014-02-12 19:22:31 <jgarzik> bah
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2585 2014-02-12 19:23:12 <gmaxwell> heh. there are uuids arguing with each other on github.
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2591 2014-02-12 19:25:21 <bitblender> just... do it !
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2596 2014-02-12 19:28:07 <Bisbee> hm
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2601 2014-02-12 19:29:05 <enodios> gmaxwell: uuid? as in unique universal identifier? or a different meaning in this context? I don't understand.
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2604 2014-02-12 19:29:42 <Bisbee> ;;ban wsirc_9586
2605 2014-02-12 19:29:42 <gribble> Error: "ban" is not a valid command.
2606 2014-02-12 19:29:48 <gmaxwell> enodios: I never said it was easy to understand; thats what makes it funny.
2607 2014-02-12 19:29:50 <maaku> jcorgan: the blockchain index is in a separate directory, just put that in a ramdisk
2608 2014-02-12 19:30:22 <jcorgan> yeah, that's what i was thinking the symlink would do
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2616 2014-02-12 19:32:33 <Luke-Jr> uncertain candidate commits for 0.8.7: http://0bin.net/paste/sbzIbfOXzbrkijxq#SXNRXBpLGyTnFtbXJan7NgXgeJB7ijhjGXRTbA6tmV8= <-- can anyone provide (possibly obvious) insight or opinions?
2617 2014-02-12 19:32:40 <enodios> gmaxwell: ah, you're referring to PR 3657?
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2655 2014-02-12 19:43:11 <chavenorbos> How can I move funds from one ACCOUNT to another ACCOUNT in my wallet?
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2662 2014-02-12 19:45:39 <sturles> To move 42 BTC from account a to account b: bitcoind move a b 42
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2672 2014-02-12 19:47:09 <chavenorbos> +sturles: Do I have to move the entire amount?
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2675 2014-02-12 19:48:21 <Luke-Jr> chavenorbos: move whatever amount you want.
2676 2014-02-12 19:48:38 glebe has joined
2677 2014-02-12 19:48:43 <Luke-Jr> chavenorbos: note there is a *possibility* accounts will be removed from bitcoind in the future
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2685 2014-02-12 19:51:43 <chmod755> are there any other addresses that have been used to spam or was it just 1Enjoy and 1Sochi?
2686 2014-02-12 19:52:17 <chavenorbos> +Luke-Jr: After executing the MOVE command conn.listreceivedbyaccount() is still showing the same results.
2687 2014-02-12 19:52:37 <Luke-Jr> chavenorbos: you're using the wrong method; listaccounts
2688 2014-02-12 19:52:59 <Luke-Jr> chmod755: lol, there are a TON of spam
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2692 2014-02-12 19:53:59 <venzen_> chavenorbos: you should probably get familiar with the wallet by using -testnet first... just mine some testcoins on there and experiment
2693 2014-02-12 19:54:01 <chmod755> Luke-Jr, i mean addresses with a similar behavior
2694 2014-02-12 19:54:20 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2695 2014-02-12 19:54:37 <chavenorbos> venzen: Yeah I've been messing with it.
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2698 2014-02-12 19:55:36 <chavenorbos> Ok with the move account I've actually made the balances negitive -- how does that effect the system?
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2702 2014-02-12 19:57:28 <wumpus> is it some new trend to make github accounts with UUIDs names?
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2705 2014-02-12 19:58:36 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I've never seen it.
2706 2014-02-12 19:58:44 <wumpus> uuids make really inconvenient identifiers, for anything, even for people
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2709 2014-02-12 20:00:47 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: can you comment on a short list of fixes I'm not sure are applicable to 0.8.x?  http://0bin.net/paste/YPFzVyjDB8mMQqC7#tmsbm262DPMtU9ZWlMrK7plG6cgHuzyjYlXhP1zR+7w=
2710 2014-02-12 20:00:55 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I suspect the second one is mocking the first, it made me giggle, at least.
2711 2014-02-12 20:01:24 <Luke-Jr> ah, I see where they are  >_<
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2719 2014-02-12 20:05:05 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: many of those make no sense in 0.8.x as prerequisites are missing or the bugs that they fix don't exist yet :) 
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2722 2014-02-12 20:06:12 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: that's what I was hoping/expecting to hear - can you quickly list which ones are n/a?
2723 2014-02-12 20:06:13 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: tbh I think it would be best to limit 0.8.7 changes as much as possible to what is really necessary due to the DoS
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2729 2014-02-12 20:07:52 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: (see PM)
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2732 2014-02-12 20:08:57 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: reject insanely high fees sounds like a good one to have
2733 2014-02-12 20:09:13 christop1e has joined
2734 2014-02-12 20:09:50 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: as are the missing locks in the UI wallet code, but I'm not sure of how much they apply to 0.8 code becuase most of those problems were introduced with coin control
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2736 2014-02-12 20:10:30 <Luke-Jr> hmm
2737 2014-02-12 20:10:48 <Luke-Jr> I'll dig into analysing those then I guess
2738 2014-02-12 20:10:53 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: gui initialization order is not an issue in 0.8, build time building from tarball isn't either (that's post-autotools cleanup)
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2742 2014-02-12 20:12:35 <wumpus> 1bbca24 Add option to avoid spending unconfirmed change,  we certainly want to backport that one
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2745 2014-02-12 20:14:34 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: thanks
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2748 2014-02-12 20:17:36 <wumpus> 1f12844 Fix importprivkey / rescan  this one too
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2757 2014-02-12 20:23:19 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: that one will be difficult, I suspect >_<
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2762 2014-02-12 20:26:33 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: ok, if it isn't straightforward, don't bother backporting, otherwise it's too much of a risk for a stable release
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2767 2014-02-12 20:31:05 <gmaxwell> hm. that one may actually be important.
2768 2014-02-12 20:31:14 <gmaxwell> though maybe we don't need the whole thing.
2769 2014-02-12 20:31:26 <gmaxwell> I think it fixed an issue I had where salvage wallet wouldn't find all the spendable coins.
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2774 2014-02-12 20:33:14 <wumpus> I see what luke-jr means with difficult: the change sets mapKeyMetadata for the key as well as nCreateTime for the wallet; both don't exist in 0.8
2775 2014-02-12 20:33:38 <flotsamuel> I had an issue like that recently myself and had to salvage the wallet even though it listed what I thought were all the transactions.
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2778 2014-02-12 20:34:34 <gmaxwell> hm. maybe the issue I'm thinking of didn't even exist in 0.8 ... except there seemed to be a 0.8 user reporting not seeing all their coins after a salvage.
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2780 2014-02-12 20:34:51 <wumpus> gmaxwell: the fix importprivkey change mentioned wouldn't affect salvagewallet, just the importprivkey RPC
2781 2014-02-12 20:35:28 <jgarzik> Related:  didn't one user report their walletversion getting downgraded?
2782 2014-02-12 20:36:09 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I think the salvage misbehavior problem may have been something like the create time being set to something wrong, thus it not bothering to rescan
2783 2014-02-12 20:36:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: so the user merely did this as a workaround..
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2787 2014-02-12 20:37:09 <gmaxwell> wumpus: if the issue still exists, I can reliably reproduce it on my testnet wallet, I guess I should try.  I had assumed that change would fix it.
2788 2014-02-12 20:37:20 <gmaxwell> will do shortly.
2789 2014-02-12 20:37:43 <wumpus> gmaxwell: the wallet birthday stuff doesn't exist yet in 0.8, seems like an issue that popped up after that; if it exists in 0.8 and 0.9 it must be something else altogether
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2794 2014-02-12 20:38:22 <wumpus> salvagewallet/rescan not getting all transactions would be bad though...
2795 2014-02-12 20:38:40 <wumpus> certainly as it's used as a workaround now
2796 2014-02-12 20:38:42 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: if the wallet birthday doesn't exist, then the rescan fix is n/a too, right?
2797 2014-02-12 20:38:56 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes, I suppose so
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2803 2014-02-12 20:42:54 <wumpus> gmaxwell: there may be other places (in 0.9) where nCreateTime in the key metadata is not set correctly. By default it is 0, which means 'fill in the current timestamp',
2804 2014-02-12 20:43:03 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, wumpus: If you _do_ have some key metadata, any, then the wallet birthday is set to that minimum.
2805 2014-02-12 20:43:24 <jgarzik> i.e. if you have 1,000 keys and 1 metadata from yesterday, your bday is yesterday
2806 2014-02-12 20:43:57 <jgarzik> salvagewallet probably needs to set the birthday to 2009
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2808 2014-02-12 20:44:09 <wumpus> or 1, like importprivkey does after the fix
2809 2014-02-12 20:45:03 <jgarzik> nod
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2811 2014-02-12 20:45:27 <wumpus> BTW the original change in that pull was to default the key creation date in new metadata to 1, instead of set it just for importprivkey
2812 2014-02-12 20:45:29 <jgarzik> No, wait, the code gets it right and sets to 1 if metadata is not complete.
2813 2014-02-12 20:45:49 <jgarzik>     if ((wss.nKeys + wss.nCKeys) != wss.nKeyMeta)
2814 2014-02-12 20:45:49 <jgarzik>         pwallet->nTimeFirstKey = 1; // 0 would be considered 'no value'
2815 2014-02-12 20:45:59 <wumpus> ok so that was fixed already, good
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2820 2014-02-12 20:46:29 <Emcy> so i know you knew about txn mallebility years ago. But did anyone know it could be used to dos the netowrk on this scale?
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2827 2014-02-12 20:48:06 <k9quaint> if exchanges had handled tx malleability correctly, would a DDoS even be possible?
2828 2014-02-12 20:48:24 <helo> network service hasn't been interrupted, just some poorly implemented services
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2833 2014-02-12 20:49:34 <Emcy> the qt client is able to be stopped from transacting
2834 2014-02-12 20:49:46 <Emcy> if the user does some specific things
2835 2014-02-12 20:50:10 <wumpus> I only thought of using transaction malleability as a DoS after the mtgox issues
2836 2014-02-12 20:50:29 <wumpus> and seemingly many people  at the same time... including a few that actually did it :/
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2842 2014-02-12 20:52:52 <Emcy> so it turned out to be a known unknown
2843 2014-02-12 20:52:53 <helo> Emcy: that's an example of one of the poorly implemented services ;)
2844 2014-02-12 20:53:37 rgb has joined
2845 2014-02-12 20:53:42 <Emcy> oh i sure do love semantics games thats why i became a high powered lawyer. No wait i didnt :p
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2859 2014-02-12 21:02:01 <wumpus> k9quaint: if the issue with mtgox wouldn't have happened, transaction mallability would never have been in the spotlight so much and no one probably would have gotten the idea to do a mass DoS with it... it would still have been possible, of course 
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2862 2014-02-12 21:02:44 <wumpus> k9quaint: and in principle it isn't even a DoS against the network, it's just that mass mutation uncovered bugs in some wallet implementations causing anything from mild visual clutter to being unable to spend (so DoS against the wallet)
2863 2014-02-12 21:02:53 <vekexasia> hello all, Does someone know if there's a way to know the tx fee upfront . Before sending the money?
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2870 2014-02-12 21:05:03 <optimator> Is it correct to state that using the bitcoind api you can't determine if a given Tx hash has a mutated twin?
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2875 2014-02-12 21:06:33 <lechuga_> you can
2876 2014-02-12 21:06:48 <optimator> lechuga_: how?
2877 2014-02-12 21:06:48 <MaxSan> you need to check the timestamp + the input + output addresses
2878 2014-02-12 21:07:00 <lechuga_> you can scan txns on blocknotify and compare ins/outs with txns you may have made
2879 2014-02-12 21:07:04 <lechuga_> if they match but the hash doesnt
2880 2014-02-12 21:07:17 <MaxSan> ^^
2881 2014-02-12 21:07:17 <lechuga_> you have found a twin
2882 2014-02-12 21:07:23 <lechuga_> which can be confirmed by inspecting the scriptsigs
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2885 2014-02-12 21:08:10 <optimator> ah, got it
2886 2014-02-12 21:08:25 <wumpus> vekexasia: not if you use sendfrom/sendmany, as you can't know in advance what inputs it will select; with the rawtransactions API it may be possible
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2890 2014-02-12 21:11:07 <optimator> lechuga_: and scriptsigs are always immutable?
2891 2014-02-12 21:11:53 <lechuga_> no thats the issue
2892 2014-02-12 21:11:56 <lechuga_> they are mutable
2893 2014-02-12 21:11:58 <optimator> right
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2895 2014-02-12 21:12:28 <lechuga_> https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691
2896 2014-02-12 21:12:38 <optimator> so for now the comparing Txin & TxOut with a reference transaction is the way to go?
2897 2014-02-12 21:12:39 <lechuga_> those are the ways (that we know of) in which they can be mutated
2898 2014-02-12 21:12:58 <optimator> + maybe timestamp
2899 2014-02-12 21:13:07 <lechuga_> if you want to see if a txn you make finds its way into the blockchain you need to store and compare its inputs/outputs
2900 2014-02-12 21:13:12 <lechuga_> with those found in the blockchain
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2907 2014-02-12 21:15:48 <BitCoroner> wumpus: i agree, it's not really a DoS. seems more like spam
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2909 2014-02-12 21:16:03 <wumpus> optimator: it's my experience that you cannot get the raw transaction for the unconfirmable one of the twins though  (getrawtransaction doesn't fetch from the wallet), so it's hard to compare them using the RPC API
2910 2014-02-12 21:16:04 <lechuga_> well its a DoS from the perspective of buggy exchanges
2911 2014-02-12 21:16:28 <lechuga_> oh interesting
2912 2014-02-12 21:16:47 <lechuga_> that seems like a major problem
2913 2014-02-12 21:17:01 <lechuga_> for exchanges leveraging the rpc api
2914 2014-02-12 21:17:19 <lechuga_> oh well
2915 2014-02-12 21:17:25 <Bisbee> aren't exchanges the real problem here? isn't there scope for a p2p bitcoin-style exchange?
2916 2014-02-12 21:17:28 <lechuga_> you can certainly get it if its for the txn you spent
2917 2014-02-12 21:17:40 <lechuga_> and presumably that may become th euncofnrimable one
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2919 2014-02-12 21:17:49 <lechuga_> unconfirmable*
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2921 2014-02-12 21:18:34 <flotsamuel> lechuga_: there are cases where even a casual Bitcoin-Qt 0.8.6 user could be denied the ability to send their coins after subsequent transactions. "denied" even though there'd be plenty of workarounds.
2922 2014-02-12 21:18:41 <optimator> wumpus: but I could watch the new blocks and when I see one that matches my inputs/outputs I would assume that whatever the Tx hash of the transaction included in that block would be my new (or existing) Tx hash??
2923 2014-02-12 21:20:11 <c--O-O> hi, where can i read about the fix, or the theory for the tx fix?
2924 2014-02-12 21:21:18 <wumpus> optimator: yes the idea would be to consider the evil twin transaction non-existent with respect to balance and spendability; see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3661
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2930 2014-02-12 21:21:58 <flotsamuel> c--O-O, some of the specific fixes proposed (not all have been merged): https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3651 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3660 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3661
2931 2014-02-12 21:22:08 alexykot1 has joined
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2935 2014-02-12 21:23:23 <c--O-O> ok
2936 2014-02-12 21:23:46 <c--O-O> it will be interesting to read the theory for the fix of this problem.
2937 2014-02-12 21:24:04 <saizai> FYI: My PAC's (new) FEC AOR about Bitcoin is now up. https://makeyourlaws.org/fec/bitcoin or http://saos.fec.gov/saos/searchao "pending advisory opinion requests" AO 2014-02. I have to go but feel free to email me (sai@makeyourlaws.org) or FEC (ao@fec.gov) w/ comments.
2938 2014-02-12 21:24:30 brson has joined
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2940 2014-02-12 21:24:40 <Imbue> does anyone here have some experience with python-ecdsa?
2941 2014-02-12 21:25:21 Tray_ has joined
2942 2014-02-12 21:25:37 <Imbue> I am trying to run the test scripts, errors about relative imports, does the library need to be installed in some way rather than simply being run from directory?
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2944 2014-02-12 21:27:13 <flotsamuel> c--O-O: if you want some background on the bitcoind/bitcoin-qt issue, this comment is a somewhat decent writeup: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1xo1jd/in_case_you_missed_it_the_qt_wallet_is_also/cfd2ioi you can also search the #Bitcoin logs for the word "gmaxwell" over the past 24h ;)
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2952 2014-02-12 21:30:04 <Imbue> hm, same issue after installing with pip
2953 2014-02-12 21:30:13 <Imbue> i'll try python help.
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2957 2014-02-12 21:30:54 <c--O-O> ok
2958 2014-02-12 21:31:05 <c--O-O> and any diagrams have been drawn?
2959 2014-02-12 21:31:06 <flotsamuel> Imbue: will pm to keep this place on the core dev topics.
2960 2014-02-12 21:31:13 <Imbue> thanks flotsamuel
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2972 2014-02-12 21:39:06 <gmaxwell> wumpus: crud the bug w/ rescanning I hit before still exists
2973 2014-02-12 21:39:10 <gmaxwell> Start: freshly started git master on testnet "balance" : 197824.21000000,
2974 2014-02-12 21:39:10 <gmaxwell> Stop daemon, restart with salvagewallet "balance" : 150.00000000,
2975 2014-02-12 21:39:10 <gmaxwell> Opps.
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2979 2014-02-12 21:39:22 <gmaxwell> so yea...
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2983 2014-02-12 21:41:12 <gmaxwell> and a -rescan does not fix.
2984 2014-02-12 21:41:23 <c--O-O> seems hard to fix, and not enough resources to work with, from what I've read. but the rest went right past me.
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2989 2014-02-12 21:44:16 <gmaxwell> oh another bug: my wallet passphrase no longer worked after the salvagewallet.
2990 2014-02-12 21:44:47 Michail1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2994 2014-02-12 21:46:50 <gmaxwell> yea, I can confirm salvagewallet is savagewallet for my testnet wallet, it's fully reproducable.
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2997 2014-02-12 21:48:12 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, iirc salvagewallet does have a warning about being risky right?
2998 2014-02-12 21:48:50 c0rw1n has joined
2999 2014-02-12 21:49:27 <phantomcircuit> shit... i can hear the PDU beeping from here
3000 2014-02-12 21:49:34 <gmaxwell> Indeed. I'm not really complaining except for the fact that we've been suggesting that people with mutantfuxored wallets that don't mind losing metadata run it... and I have proof that at least for some wallets this might be undesirable.
3001 2014-02-12 21:49:45 samesong has joined
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3003 2014-02-12 21:50:13 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the only way im aware of to fix wallets with a bunch of mutated tx's is to dump the private keys and reload them
3004 2014-02-12 21:50:24 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, see -wiz
3005 2014-02-12 21:50:25 Michail1 has joined
3006 2014-02-12 21:50:40 <gmaxwell> thats morally what salvagewallet should be doing.  iirc dumpwallet doesn't exist in 0.8.
3007 2014-02-12 21:51:03 <Imbue> flotsamuel: figured out the issues now. their readme is bunk as you say. importing it into my own code and using it works fine.
3008 2014-02-12 21:51:15 <flotsamuel> cool
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3023 2014-02-12 22:04:32 <chichov> isn't the int type platform dependent? if so, don't we run into problems using it for variables in eg the transaction class? (it has version, bits and nonce as int/uint)
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3026 2014-02-12 22:06:41 <andytoshi> chichov: the network format for transactions is specified at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
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3030 2014-02-12 22:07:21 denisx_ is now known as denisx
3031 2014-02-12 22:07:26 <andytoshi> bitcoind frequently exploits the fact that that network spec matches an ordinary little-endian machine, yes, so there are some implicit conversions in there
3032 2014-02-12 22:08:11 <bitblender> have the TM attack stopped?
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3040 2014-02-12 22:17:57 <nightlingo> guys... I have a rather stupid question.. but here goes: I get why exchanges work only with wire transfers, to defend themselves against chargebacks. But what do they do with all these photo id and proof of residency documents? run them through security check sites ?
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3042 2014-02-12 22:18:34 <lechuga_> they need to comply or at least feign compliance with anti-money laundering laws
3043 2014-02-12 22:18:41 <lechuga_> and thats offtopic for #bitcoin-dev
3044 2014-02-12 22:18:46 <lechuga_> better question for #bitcoin
3045 2014-02-12 22:19:26 c0rw1n has joined
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3048 2014-02-12 22:19:46 <nightlingo> lechuga_ thank you
3049 2014-02-12 22:20:24 <nightlingo> lechuga_ already asked there but your info was more helpful :)
3050 2014-02-12 22:22:19 tombtc has quit (Quit: Wychodzi)
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3055 2014-02-12 22:24:31 <SeksiCKret> you have to at least ask to comply with AML i thought.
3056 2014-02-12 22:24:59 <SeksiCKret> and a declaration that the said party is in compliance or whatever words you technically need ie "you agree to not fund or participate in money laundering or terrorism" etc
3057 2014-02-12 22:25:52 Coincidental has joined
3058 2014-02-12 22:26:15 <SeksiCKret> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/1746
3059 2014-02-12 22:26:20 Hans-Martin has joined
3060 2014-02-12 22:26:21 melvster has joined
3061 2014-02-12 22:26:56 <SeksiCKret> I declare (or certify, verify, or state) under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed on (date). (Signature)”.
3062 2014-02-12 22:27:16 <SeksiCKret> providing ID may be stated as a declaration of agreement of said aforementioned without a signature if its stated to be such i think?
3063 2014-02-12 22:27:17 cr3pe has quit (Quit: leaving)
3064 2014-02-12 22:27:44 <denisx> if anybody needs an ipv6 peer: 2a00:1328:e100:cc42:230:48ff:fe92:55c
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3072 2014-02-12 22:35:10 <money> so there are some unexpected design glitches? and not because there is so much infrastructure around the coin it's not easy to change these?
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3077 2014-02-12 22:37:47 <chichov> is actually sending money to oneself allowed?
3078 2014-02-12 22:38:25 <andytoshi> chichov, money: #bitcoin please, there is too much uninformed malleability talk here
3079 2014-02-12 22:38:49 <chichov> oh, alright
3080 2014-02-12 22:39:31 <edcba> chichov: there is no real concept of "identity" in bitcoin: 2 bitcoin instances are 2 "identities"
3081 2014-02-12 22:39:40 chichov has quit ()
3082 2014-02-12 22:39:45 <Imbue> lol
3083 2014-02-12 22:40:05 <c--O-O> so some bottlenecks are being reached?
3084 2014-02-12 22:40:19 freggles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3085 2014-02-12 22:40:52 <c--O-O> or is it possible to fix this malleability problem?
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3105 2014-02-12 22:50:56 <helo> malleability cannot be absolutely prevented, but its side-effects can be eliminated
3106 2014-02-12 22:51:59 Bukowski has joined
3107 2014-02-12 22:52:05 <Bukowski> j #mtgox
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3120 2014-02-12 23:00:08 bitinsta1t is now known as bitinstant
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3132 2014-02-12 23:04:16 <quellhorst> is it true your wallet is tied up for 1 hour after spending on one transaction?
3133 2014-02-12 23:04:23 agricocb has joined
3134 2014-02-12 23:04:59 <Luke-Jr> quellhorst: what?
3135 2014-02-12 23:05:38 <quellhorst> Luke-Jr: https://twitter.com/patio11/status/433710124566581248
3136 2014-02-12 23:06:03 <Luke-Jr> quellhorst: that's pretty much entirely bogus.
3137 2014-02-12 23:06:08 <quellhorst> that is what i thought
3138 2014-02-12 23:06:20 <Luke-Jr> it's *possible* for that to happen, but rare and only if you do it a certain way
3139 2014-02-12 23:06:21 <quellhorst> could someone respond to that?
3140 2014-02-12 23:06:54 <edcba> isn't there some faq for users ?
3141 2014-02-12 23:06:54 <Luke-Jr> I don't use Twitter.
3142 2014-02-12 23:06:56 <quellhorst> guy is spreading fud to 10,000 people
3143 2014-02-12 23:07:05 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3144 2014-02-12 23:07:15 <k9quaint> there are 6bil on the planet, 10K aint nothin
3145 2014-02-12 23:07:17 <emowataji> patio11 spreads fud on hacker news too
3146 2014-02-12 23:07:33 <edcba> bitcoin always had fud
3147 2014-02-12 23:07:40 <emowataji> no doubt they're referring to changes to require the change output to be confirmed before respending it
3148 2014-02-12 23:08:03 <Luke-Jr> fun fact: one of the assumptions in that scenario is that you're flat broke without the paycheck..
3149 2014-02-12 23:08:49 <quellhorst> lol
3150 2014-02-12 23:09:06 fud has joined
3151 2014-02-12 23:09:14 <fud> hello friends
3152 2014-02-12 23:09:15 <fud> lol
3153 2014-02-12 23:09:33 <Apocalyptic> seriously...
3154 2014-02-12 23:10:07 * k9quaint spreads fud
3155 2014-02-12 23:10:18 <fud> lol
3156 2014-02-12 23:10:18 Lexa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3157 2014-02-12 23:10:21 <k9quaint> oops, forgot to confirm no adam's apple ;(
3158 2014-02-12 23:10:35 skarloey has joined
3159 2014-02-12 23:10:45 <edcba> yeah bitcoin gets no love with apples
3160 2014-02-12 23:10:46 <Luke-Jr> IF you're flat broke outside of the paycheck, AND the paycheck is sent using a single output, AND you don't think in advance to pay for other things you need at the same time, AND no miner finds a block for an hour, THEN maybe you have a delay..
3161 2014-02-12 23:11:14 <Apocalyptic> that's a lot of ANDs
3162 2014-02-12 23:11:14 <fud> Luke is not good at Fud
3163 2014-02-12 23:11:15 <Luke-Jr> remember that miners usually find a block every 10 minutes, and often it's faster due to difficulty being slow to catch up
3164 2014-02-12 23:11:19 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3165 2014-02-12 23:11:26 <Apocalyptic> Luke is good at fighting fud
3166 2014-02-12 23:11:35 <fud> nah
3167 2014-02-12 23:11:39 <fud> he dont use twitter
3168 2014-02-12 23:11:43 <fud> :P
3169 2014-02-12 23:11:50 skarloey has quit (Client Quit)
3170 2014-02-12 23:12:07 <k9quaint> it's always Eve's fault, I just wish she would leave Alice and Bob alone
3171 2014-02-12 23:12:12 <SeksiCKret> what if you use an online wallet that bears risk on 2-3 confirms v 6?
3172 2014-02-12 23:12:37 riplin has joined
3173 2014-02-12 23:12:38 Zarutian has joined
3174 2014-02-12 23:13:01 <Luke-Jr> SeksiCKret: you mean 2-3 blocks to confirm instead of 6? irrelevant
3175 2014-02-12 23:13:11 <Luke-Jr> to spend change, 2 blocks is plenty
3176 2014-02-12 23:13:14 pierreatwork has joined
3177 2014-02-12 23:13:25 <fud> btw is there some easy formula to know how much hash it takes to solve 1 bitcoin block at min diff? aka use this to estimate next difficulty given current rate of hash
3178 2014-02-12 23:13:29 <edcba> maybe the client could split for you if that's the case...
3179 2014-02-12 23:13:30 [\\\] has joined
3180 2014-02-12 23:13:56 <Luke-Jr> fud: … that's how all the estimates work
3181 2014-02-12 23:14:07 <edcba> "easy"
3182 2014-02-12 23:14:49 <fud> yes that I know - I played a bit here and got formula however would be nice to compare results
3183 2014-02-12 23:14:56 <quellhorst> Luke-Jr: lol, trying to compress all that into 1 tweet
3184 2014-02-12 23:15:09 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
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3187 2014-02-12 23:16:02 <Luke-Jr> quellhorst: easy: if you're a broke beggar with no foresight at all and only one donor, then that's a real risk
3188 2014-02-12 23:16:18 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3189 2014-02-12 23:16:18 <Luke-Jr> oh wait, forgot the miner thing
3190 2014-02-12 23:16:23 <Luke-Jr> quellhorst: easy: if you're a broke beggar with no foresight at all and only one donor, then that's a real risk if miners are unlucky
3191 2014-02-12 23:16:48 <quellhorst> nice
3192 2014-02-12 23:16:55 <fud> u pay check at risk if u spend some as it locked in chain - sounds like MTGOX spin LOL
3193 2014-02-12 23:17:05 <edcba> if you get only 1 coin of 10c you can't spend 5c before you get change back
3194 2014-02-12 23:17:25 <fud> but MTGOX is member of btc foundation so its all cool ;p
3195 2014-02-12 23:17:29 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3196 2014-02-12 23:17:41 <SeksiCKret> how many blocks to confirm in bitcoin i forget is it actually 6 but youre saying 2 is fine for change, correct?
3197 2014-02-12 23:17:55 johnsoft has joined
3198 2014-02-12 23:18:11 <quellhorst> if it is a small transaction, 1 confirmation is typically ok
3199 2014-02-12 23:18:15 <Luke-Jr> SeksiCKret: that's subjective.
3200 2014-02-12 23:18:22 <SeksiCKret> k
3201 2014-02-12 23:18:25 <Luke-Jr> SeksiCKret: if it's a car, you want to wait at least 6 IMO
3202 2014-02-12 23:18:30 <Luke-Jr> if it's a house, I'd give it 100
3203 2014-02-12 23:18:35 <SeksiCKret> yah...
3204 2014-02-12 23:18:48 <Luke-Jr> if it's a $10 food, maybe 1 at most
3205 2014-02-12 23:19:19 Hrumph has joined
3206 2014-02-12 23:19:52 <SeksiCKret> so that guys post is srsly fud & misunderstanding.
3207 2014-02-12 23:20:21 <fud> or food for thoughts
3208 2014-02-12 23:20:23 <fud> lol
3209 2014-02-12 23:20:23 <SeksiCKret> i have a paper wallet i inquired about last night, had 2 satoshis deposited 1each by a diff addy. how long until these unconfirms dissappear?
3210 2014-02-12 23:20:31 <SeksiCKret> paycheck for hodl
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3212 2014-02-12 23:21:00 agricocb has joined
3213 2014-02-12 23:21:01 <SeksiCKret> its been ~~24hrs i believe.
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3232 2014-02-12 23:32:33 <fud> in LTC confirms are 4 times faster does it mean it needs 4X time to be as secure as btc? for example 6 confirms of btc = 24 of ltc? or not
3233 2014-02-12 23:32:51 TecanBTC has quit (Quit: Live Long And Phosphor!)
3234 2014-02-12 23:33:03 mattco1 has joined
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3237 2014-02-12 23:33:36 <Aaaaand-its-gone> (1/N)^4 or 1/(4N), calculate yourself
3238 2014-02-12 23:33:53 johnsoft has joined
3239 2014-02-12 23:33:58 <andytoshi> fud: if the networks were at the same hashrate, yes. an hour of POW is an hour of POW
3240 2014-02-12 23:34:10 <andytoshi> though the resource consumption is different so it's hard to say what "the same hashrate" means
3241 2014-02-12 23:34:11 <Luke-Jr> fud: yes
3242 2014-02-12 23:34:39 <Aaaaand-its-gone> andytoshi: that's not true, see my comment
3243 2014-02-12 23:34:44 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: more blocks does bring the variance down a bit, but it is indeed countered by other factors
3244 2014-02-12 23:35:18 Lexa has joined
3245 2014-02-12 23:35:26 <fud> to double spend person can produce faster blocks faster so I guess thats why
3246 2014-02-12 23:35:54 caktux has joined
3247 2014-02-12 23:36:21 <Imbue> in Bitcoin address format (base58check), leading zero bytes are converted to 1
3248 2014-02-12 23:36:31 <fud> I tried to solve math behind java double spend calculator (probabilities at x hash rate and y confirms) yet  to understand it ;:)
3249 2014-02-12 23:36:36 <andytoshi> Aaaaand-its-gone: right, sorry. if your attack model is somebody with a small amount of hashpower getting lucky, more blocks is better
3250 2014-02-12 23:36:42 <Imbue> but in a testnet address, the leading byte is nonzero
3251 2014-02-12 23:37:02 <Imbue> are testnet addresses always 34 characters long, then? or are the interim zeroes still converted/compressed?
3252 2014-02-12 23:37:39 paxtoncamaro91 has joined
3253 2014-02-12 23:37:52 <fud> andytoshi:  how come/
3254 2014-02-12 23:38:44 yubrew has joined
3255 2014-02-12 23:39:26 <fud> person probality is directly linked to his hashrate
3256 2014-02-12 23:39:27 <andytoshi> fud: basically every time you get a block faster than the network, that is an individual instance of you getting lucky. do it several times in a row and your chances drop exponentially
3257 2014-02-12 23:39:36 Hans-Martin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3259 2014-02-12 23:40:04 <fud> there is small advantage if u solve block u get a first go at solving it too
3260 2014-02-12 23:40:08 inmymem has quit (Quit: inmymem)
3261 2014-02-12 23:40:14 <andytoshi> fud: this is actually in bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf, you will see that for an attacker with <50% of the hashpower, the numbers have nothing to do with the blockrate
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3269 2014-02-12 23:41:55 <fud> andytoshi: and say at diff X how can calculate how much it would take to solve next block on target, not below not above
3270 2014-02-12 23:42:09 <fud> then I can see total network hash and estimate next diff
3271 2014-02-12 23:42:12 ralphtheninja has joined
3272 2014-02-12 23:42:15 <fud> and more :0
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3274 2014-02-12 23:42:47 coiners has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3275 2014-02-12 23:42:59 <andytoshi> fud: the probability of finding a valid hash is very small so in the limit the block distribution in time tends to a poisson process. this is standard mathematics, OT for -dev... if you want to see stats check bitcoin.sipa.be
3276 2014-02-12 23:43:07 coke0 has joined
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3278 2014-02-12 23:43:24 <andytoshi> poisson distribution*
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3283 2014-02-12 23:45:29 Guyver2 has quit (Quit: :))
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3286 2014-02-12 23:47:15 <Aaaaand-its-gone> if you calculate x^4 = x/4, you get x=0 or x=0.63 and two complex numbers, if x<0.63, then it's easier solve a bitcoin block than 4 litecoin blocks , if x>0.63 it's the other way
3287 2014-02-12 23:47:49 <Aaaaand-its-gone> and x is the percentage hash power you have
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3291 2014-02-12 23:50:33 <Aaaaand-its-gone> so you can say that litecoin is more secure after 4 blocks, than bitcoin after 1 block (unless someone has more than 63% hash power
3292 2014-02-12 23:50:42 Blackreign has joined
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3294 2014-02-12 23:51:43 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3295 2014-02-12 23:52:27 <andytoshi> Aaaaand-its-gone: that's neat.
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3298 2014-02-12 23:55:32 mattco1 is now known as mattco
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3300 2014-02-12 23:57:03 pablog has joined
3301 2014-02-12 23:57:26 <viajero> !seen sturle
3302 2014-02-12 23:57:27 <gribble> I have not seen sturle.
3303 2014-02-12 23:58:01 <viajero> !seen sturles
3304 2014-02-12 23:58:01 <gribble> sturles was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 hours, 12 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <sturles> To move 42 BTC from account a to account b: bitcoind move a b 42
3305 2014-02-12 23:58:05 gotnate has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3306 2014-02-12 23:58:42 drenllateno has joined
3307 2014-02-12 23:59:38 <viajero> !seen gmaxwell
3308 2014-02-12 23:59:38 <gribble> gmaxwell was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 hours, 8 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <gmaxwell> thats morally what salvagewallet should be doing.  iirc dumpwallet doesn't exist in 0.8.