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   8 2014-02-13 00:07:01 <Imbue> does anyone have an address I can use with a ton of pre-pending 0x00 in the binary address?
   9 2014-02-13 00:07:28 <Imbue> I want to test my base58 function, it seems to work, but I can only generate a few select examples
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  17 2014-02-13 00:09:46 <Aaaaand-its-gone> andytoshi: you can also easily calculate that litecoin is equally secure against a 51% after 47.5 minutes of pow than bitcoin after 60 minutes
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  24 2014-02-13 00:11:00 <Luke-Jr> Aaaaand-its-gone: that's not true either
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  29 2014-02-13 00:13:25 <Imbue> secure against a 51%? I thought a 51% could outmine starting from the genesis block, given enough time
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  39 2014-02-13 00:16:01 <Aaaaand-its-gone> well it's true if you have 51% of 1/4
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  41 2014-02-13 00:16:45 <Aaaaand-its-gone> so 51% of ltc (and bitcoin has difficulty 4x)
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  70 2014-02-13 00:34:42 <optimator> so, it's not correct to say a transaction hash is mutatable until it's included in a block. It's more correct to say it's mutatable until the blockchain is long enough that a reorg is statistically improbable  .
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  72 2014-02-13 00:35:37 <optimator> 6 confs probably
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  74 2014-02-13 00:37:18 <gmaxwell> I don't know why you're picking 6, but otherwise— sure.  Though at one you very nearly require a complicit miner to violate the assumption. Which could happen, indeed, but 6 then is probably not enough. Keep in mind, when you're talking in terms of things that only have denial of service consequences, you don't need as high a bar as in cases where there is a risk of fininical loss.
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  80 2014-02-13 00:39:22 <optimator> If we're using a low bar, then maybe the length of the longest orphan chain + 1?
  81 2014-02-13 00:40:50 <gmaxwell> optimator: you mean like 20 or 75?
  82 2014-02-13 00:42:10 <optimator> i don't know the number off hand... I assumed it was lower. but you're right, the number doesn't really matter
  83 2014-02-13 00:42:33 <coinz4me> ping
  84 2014-02-13 00:42:49 <coinz4me> Woot voiced, now i'll shut up until the current discussion is over.
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  86 2014-02-13 00:43:25 <gmaxwell> optimator: really getting it to the point where complicit behavior from miners is required is probably a fine standard for a denial of service attack, if miners are willing to DOS they have many tools at their disposal.
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  90 2014-02-13 00:44:36 <Aaaaand-its-gone> Luke-Jr: you're right, I was wrong, if x is hash power, then ltc is evenly secure after 15 minutes than bitcoin is after 60 minutes, was confused with x/4, that's wrong because it's just x, because you get 4x time
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  92 2014-02-13 00:45:42 <coinz4me> When someone gets a moment, can they please tell me why this pull request was never incorporated into the mainline?  It seems good.  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3383/files#diff-3b5a9b7d780ff672241548edf2888fcdR359
  93 2014-02-13 00:45:52 <Luke-Jr> Aaaaand-its-gone: now you're more wrong ;)
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  95 2014-02-13 00:46:58 <optimator> @gmaxwell: I was looking at it from a business view. i.e., when can I provide my customer with a txid. but the correct answer is to provide the txid in the longest chain
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  97 2014-02-13 00:47:52 <coinz4me> It's gotten a little stale I think.  I tried to work it in and it was a lot of work and I've got it mostly done, but I'm getting a compile error...   class CWallet’ has no member named ‘SetAddressBook just wondering where that method wandered off too.
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  99 2014-02-13 00:48:37 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: it's not useful
 100 2014-02-13 00:48:44 <coinz4me> In what way?
 101 2014-02-13 00:48:55 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: find a use case
 102 2014-02-13 00:49:34 yodasan has quit (Quit: yodasan)
 103 2014-02-13 00:49:36 <coinz4me> Sure, I want to be able to monitor cold storage addresses for unspent tx's and make a decision whether or not to import my privkey and spend.
 104 2014-02-13 00:49:40 <Luke-Jr> one that isn't categorised as either 1) doing it wrong; or 2) wrong solution for the problem
 105 2014-02-13 00:49:58 <coinz4me> Or a webwallet with no privkeys on board, but people can still check their balances.
 106 2014-02-13 00:50:05 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: you're assuming multiple txs for a single address. that's part of 1) doing it wrong
 107 2014-02-13 00:50:16 <Luke-Jr> addresses don't have balances.
 108 2014-02-13 00:50:27 <coinz4me> No you're right they have unspent txouts
 109 2014-02-13 00:50:44 <Luke-Jr> no
 110 2014-02-13 00:50:48 <Aaaaand-its-gone> Luke-Jr: no don't think so :), if x is percentage of hash power, and total amount of hashpower is the same, then it's just x^6=x^6
 111 2014-02-13 00:50:49 <Luke-Jr> they receive bitcoins
 112 2014-02-13 00:51:15 <Luke-Jr> once
 113 2014-02-13 00:51:44 <coinz4me> Luke you talkng to me or Aaaan?
 114 2014-02-13 00:51:48 <andytoshi> Aaaaand-its-gone: security against a person with <50% hashpower getting lucky and replacing blocks, is different from the cost to a person with >50% hashpower replacing blocks
 115 2014-02-13 00:52:02 <andytoshi> i think you're not distinguishing between those cases
 116 2014-02-13 00:52:23 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: you
 117 2014-02-13 00:52:38 <Luke-Jr> Aaaaand-its-gone is just happily confused it sounds like, and totally off-topic
 118 2014-02-13 00:52:48 <coinz4me> Ok what you are saying is true in an ideal world... However that's not how people including myself use the software.
 119 2014-02-13 00:53:02 <coinz4me> Otherwise why put a donation address in your sig on bitcointalk?
 120 2014-02-13 00:53:53 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: misuse does not justify an overcomplicated feature
 121 2014-02-13 00:54:02 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: especially when a better solution is on the horizon
 122 2014-02-13 00:54:14 <coinz4me> It's only usable once right?  Only gets coins once right?  No, that's just not the truth.  It may be what you guys would like to see happen, but it's not the truth of how the product is used in reality.
 123 2014-02-13 00:54:22 <coinz4me> What is the better solution luke?
 124 2014-02-13 00:54:33 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 125 2014-02-13 00:54:38 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: you will be able to make a watch-only copy of a wallet, and it will see new transactions to any address in that wallet
 126 2014-02-13 00:54:59 <coinz4me> Which is different from adding a watchonly address how?
 127 2014-02-13 00:55:24 <Luke-Jr> it fulfils the use case of people wanting to see wallet activity without privkeys
 128 2014-02-13 00:55:43 <Luke-Jr> watchonly address only "does" that when people are misusing bitcoin
 129 2014-02-13 00:55:54 <coinz4me> Only if you assume that everyone who might share a privkey would want to share a whole wallet as well.
 130 2014-02-13 00:55:56 <Luke-Jr> encouraging broken behaviour
 131 2014-02-13 00:56:18 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: not at all; you will ALSO be able to make a watch-only copy of a subsection of a wallet
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 134 2014-02-13 00:56:52 <coinz4me> If you had the account feature create a distinct wallet for each account then you might be correct.  But a watchonly wallet is just a list of watch only addresses right?  I mean how could it be more?
 135 2014-02-13 00:57:20 <Luke-Jr> no
 136 2014-02-13 00:57:44 <Luke-Jr> the watch-only wallet (or subwallet) is able to monitor infinite addresses
 137 2014-02-13 00:58:11 <coinz4me> Either way, having a watchwallet is a lovely idea.  In the meantime I'm trying to work through a patch and came in just to ask what happened to CWallet::SetAddressBook did it get changed to something else?
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 141 2014-02-13 01:00:58 <Luke-Jr> I think it got renamed.
 142 2014-02-13 01:01:08 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: have you looked at Armory?
 143 2014-02-13 01:01:09 skarloey has joined
 144 2014-02-13 01:01:19 <Luke-Jr> it has all the features "coming soon" in B-Qt
 145 2014-02-13 01:01:21 <coinz4me> Any idea what it got renamed too?
 146 2014-02-13 01:01:30 <Luke-Jr> SetAddressBookName IIRC
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 149 2014-02-13 01:02:37 <coinz4me> Armory doesn't work with altcoins )(AFAIK), I'm putting this patch into a universal webwallet.  If/when you guys get the magic wallet feature I'll revert.  For now a watch only address is the best solution we could come up with.
 150 2014-02-13 01:02:49 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: this is #BITCOIN-dev
 151 2014-02-13 01:02:53 <coinz4me> Thanks luke
 152 2014-02-13 01:03:03 <coinz4me> I know and it's bitcoind I'm patching
 153 2014-02-13 01:03:19 <coinz4me> Thus the question is/was appropriate.
 154 2014-02-13 01:04:08 <coinz4me> I asked why a pull wasn't included and you did a fine job of explaining.  I asked what a member function was renamed too and you explained it well.  You then asked my why not use armory and explained myself.
 155 2014-02-13 01:05:29 <coinz4me> Ok so back to the discussion about immutable tx hashes.  Has MtGox finished driving down the price of BTC so they can buy cheaply enough on the open market, or is this actually a serious threat?
 156 2014-02-13 01:05:48 ystarnaud has joined
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 158 2014-02-13 01:06:11 <coinz4me> Seems to me the problem stemed from them rolling their own client that didn't work with newer versions and the miners were being kind enough to make the tx valid.  Am I missing anything here?
 159 2014-02-13 01:07:20 _ImI_ has joined
 160 2014-02-13 01:07:21 <Luke-Jr> well, their real problem was they were sending people their withdrawls twice, without double spending the retry
 161 2014-02-13 01:07:50 k0k0 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 162 2014-02-13 01:08:25 <coinz4me> Seems to me the first half of that statement was the only part that mattered.
 163 2014-02-13 01:08:45 <Luke-Jr> no, retrying sends is fine as long as you double-spend
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 165 2014-02-13 01:08:52 <coinz4me> If a withdrawl is not going through shouldn't you just look at the address it was sent to and see if the rest of the tx matches?
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 167 2014-02-13 01:09:20 <Luke-Jr> that's one option
 168 2014-02-13 01:09:29 <coinz4me> Is there a better one?
 169 2014-02-13 01:10:15 <Luke-Jr> the most obvious one is to just watch outputs to a given scriptPubKey
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 171 2014-02-13 01:10:30 <Luke-Jr> this works in all cases (including CoinJoins)
 172 2014-02-13 01:10:43 <Luke-Jr> it *does* break with address reuse; I don't consider that a real problem, though
 173 2014-02-13 01:11:12 ens_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 174 2014-02-13 01:11:33 <Luke-Jr> any address reuse safe solution is inherently much more complex
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 177 2014-02-13 01:13:52 <coinz4me> I dunno Luke something in my gut tells me what you're saying about address reuse is wrong.  I mean all you would really have to do is scan the block chain forward from the time the tx was sent looking for one where the inputs match the expected inputs, right?  I mean that's what it's all about.  You can't spend the same inputs twice.
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 181 2014-02-13 01:15:10 <coinz4me> I know everyone is on this "you shouldn't reuse an address" trip lately.  However the fact is we do all the time.  I don't know anyone who doesn't have a donation address that's static.  You really going to go through and change your donation address every single time someone sends a donation?
 182 2014-02-13 01:15:21 <andytoshi> lately?
 183 2014-02-13 01:16:08 <lnovy> can you point me at some discussion on this topic? I don't see a big issue in this too
 184 2014-02-13 01:16:11 <andytoshi> coinz4me: as the sender, you can malleate transactions in a lot of ways (increase fees, add other inputs/outputs) while still keeping the original payment (as defined by the destination address and value) intact. so in general that's all you need to/should track
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 187 2014-02-13 01:16:58 <andytoshi> lnovy: look at the logs on this channel for the last 72 hours. this conversation has happened one thousand times. also look at the bitcoin-development list
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 189 2014-02-13 01:17:08 <lnovy> thx
 190 2014-02-13 01:17:37 <lnovy> anybody knows how to dump window content from irssi if i haven't enabled logging in-front? :D
 191 2014-02-13 01:17:40 <coinz4me> Brainwallet and cold storage are other good examples.  Say I decided to run an exchange.  It would be stupid to keep more than what I needed to cash out my users in a wallet.dat.  It would make so much more sense to send all the excess everyday to a single address stored in a safe or something.
 192 2014-02-13 01:18:17 <Zarutian> here is the thing. This was WELL KNOWN THREE YEARS AGO! why is this ""suddenly"" such a problem now? Sure some exchange fucked up.
 193 2014-02-13 01:19:05 <coinz4me> Agreed
 194 2014-02-13 01:19:12 <coinz4me> But this isn't #mtgox
 195 2014-02-13 01:19:14 <coinz4me> :)
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 197 2014-02-13 01:19:38 <andytoshi> lnovy: logs are at  http://bitcoinstats.com/, it is in the /topic
 198 2014-02-13 01:19:40 <Zarutian> I am just a bit annoyed about how often people come in here OMGing over this.
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 200 2014-02-13 01:19:51 <lnovy> wow
 201 2014-02-13 01:20:13 <lnovy> andytoshi: thanks you very much again good sir
 202 2014-02-13 01:20:14 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: brainwallets are good examples of ways to get robbed.
 203 2014-02-13 01:20:27 <Luke-Jr> cold storage is something that only Armory (AFAIK) supports right now
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 206 2014-02-13 01:20:29 <andytoshi> coinz4me: why in god's name would you use a single address for that?
 207 2014-02-13 01:20:34 <coinz4me> Depends on how you structure it.
 208 2014-02-13 01:20:45 <Zarutian> andytoshi: not knowing better?
 209 2014-02-13 01:20:46 <coinz4me> That was meant at Luke-Jr
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 214 2014-02-13 01:21:27 <coinz4me> Why would you not use a single address, or even create a multisig with at least one sig in a paper wallet?
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 217 2014-02-13 01:21:55 <andytoshi> Zarutian: sure, but the hypothetical was "what if i ran an exchange", where "i" is a person who luke has been talking to for 40 minutes about exactly this
 218 2014-02-13 01:22:17 <coinz4me> Addresses are supposed to be uber secure.  Remember we have a big poster about the sun running out of energy before your private key is cracked.
 219 2014-02-13 01:22:27 <andytoshi> coinz4me: use an HD wallet, armory supports them and there is simple math behind them anyway
 220 2014-02-13 01:22:29 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: addresses are not supposed to be uber secure.
 221 2014-02-13 01:22:46 <coinz4me> It's posted every single time someone thinks they've found a secret hole in bitcoin.
 222 2014-02-13 01:22:47 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: addresses are supposed to be used to receive once, then never again
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 224 2014-02-13 01:23:07 <Luke-Jr> the thing about the sun running out of energy before your private key is cracked, only applies if you use it once
 225 2014-02-13 01:23:18 <Luke-Jr> if you use it more than once, it no longer is necessarily true
 226 2014-02-13 01:23:27 <Zarutian> the addresses are secure. Still you do not want to reuse one much if you do not want to expose the relations between addresses.
 227 2014-02-13 01:23:30 <lnovy> I have some friends repeatly trying to convince me to create an exchange with them, I keep explaining them how hard is to do everything properly thinking of myself I know bitcoin pretty well... I had no idea how wrong was I until I started to idle here...
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 230 2014-02-13 01:24:05 <coinz4me> That might work for an individual luke, but a business is not going to be able to just use an address once and not have 100 million keys to deal with at the end of the year.
 231 2014-02-13 01:24:20 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: once you use a key, you discard it.
 232 2014-02-13 01:24:44 <Zarutian> or just archive it in a truecrypt volume or some such
 233 2014-02-13 01:24:51 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: and any serious business *already* uses a unique address per transaction
 234 2014-02-13 01:25:02 <lnovy> also you can have the keys on demand generated, keeping the generator separate...
 235 2014-02-13 01:25:07 <denisx> even mt.gox
 236 2014-02-13 01:25:08 <Luke-Jr> Zarutian: heck, you could safely publish it at that poitn
 237 2014-02-13 01:25:11 <coinz4me> Luke-Jr that is only true if you have a way of dynamically updating the address.
 238 2014-02-13 01:25:21 tipsfedora has joined
 239 2014-02-13 01:25:31 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: if you don't, you're not a real business
 240 2014-02-13 01:25:50 pigeons has joined
 241 2014-02-13 01:25:54 <xiando> Luke-Jr: You seem to think that every webserver out there should be running a bitcoind and also dynamic scripting of some sort. That's not reality, sorry.
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 243 2014-02-13 01:25:59 <Zarutian> Luke-Jr: well at least five months confirmations away from the transaction that emptied that address. Sure.
 244 2014-02-13 01:26:05 <Luke-Jr> xiando: bitcoind is not needed to give out addresses
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 246 2014-02-13 01:26:18 <Luke-Jr> xiando: I assume webservers *never* run bitcoind.
 247 2014-02-13 01:26:32 <andytoshi> i liked the guy who wanted to have a postit-note pad with a new address on every pad.....and then he was going to run a telephone key escrow service to support them. that was at least creative.
 248 2014-02-13 01:26:48 <xiando> Luke-Jr: So if I have a thttpd with a index.html and and address in it, you suggust I change it manually each time I get a donation?
 249 2014-02-13 01:26:50 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 250 2014-02-13 01:26:54 <Zarutian> Luke-Jr: dedicated 'cash register' machine that is ridiculusly hardened?
 251 2014-02-13 01:27:03 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: you mean every page? interesting
 252 2014-02-13 01:27:15 <Luke-Jr> xiando: if you're a business, you won't have an index.html
 253 2014-02-13 01:27:19 <coinz4me> Luke-Jr I think you and I will likely argue this until the heat death of the universe.  The fact is there are reasons for a static key.
 254 2014-02-13 01:27:19 <Zarutian> andytoshi: I agree with you there. That is at least creative.
 255 2014-02-13 01:27:23 phungus has joined
 256 2014-02-13 01:27:28 johnsoft has joined
 257 2014-02-13 01:27:29 <andytoshi> Luke-Jr: yeah. we told him it'd be easy for customers to just replace the pad with one of their own, and he felt that was insurmountable i think so he left
 258 2014-02-13 01:27:31 <Luke-Jr> Zarutian: it doesn't need to be hardened much
 259 2014-02-13 01:27:46 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: if "incompetence" is a reason..
 260 2014-02-13 01:27:48 <Zarutian> coinz4me: please enumerate the reasons for a static key.
 261 2014-02-13 01:27:49 yodasan has joined
 262 2014-02-13 01:28:02 <coinz4me> LOL you're joking right luke?  You can't seriously believe that a business would not have a static index.html when that is the most common type of page for a business to have.
 263 2014-02-13 01:28:21 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: nonsense, name one business that accepts online payments with a html page
 264 2014-02-13 01:28:22 <andytoshi> coinz4me: no business in history has received payments through a static index.html page
 265 2014-02-13 01:28:31 <Zarutian> aah those brochure websites
 266 2014-02-13 01:29:02 Eiii has joined
 267 2014-02-13 01:29:05 <coinz4me> Primarily having a static key means you only need to keep secure a single key.  You can track payments to that key easily enough.
 268 2014-02-13 01:29:05 <berndj> is/ought problem
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 270 2014-02-13 01:29:40 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: having a HD wallet means you only need to keep secure a single seed.
 271 2014-02-13 01:29:41 Eiii has quit (!~NA@unaffiliated/eiii|Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 272 2014-02-13 01:30:02 <coinz4me> Does bitcoind support an HD wallet at this time?
 273 2014-02-13 01:30:18 <coinz4me> If so I'll shutup and be on my merry, eating my hat along the way.
 274 2014-02-13 01:30:24 <Luke-Jr> nope, bitcoind doesn't support anything other than limited online personal use
 275 2014-02-13 01:30:25 _ImI_ has quit (Quit: _ImI_)
 276 2014-02-13 01:30:26 <Zarutian> Luke-Jr: HD? High Definition? Hash Deterministic?
 277 2014-02-13 01:30:33 <Luke-Jr> Zarutian: Hierarchial Deterministic
 278 2014-02-13 01:31:06 <coinz4me> Basically you give it a seed and probably a vector and it goes to town making new keys like the deterministic keys in bitmessenger right?
 279 2014-02-13 01:31:10 <Luke-Jr> maybe 0.10 will add offline and watch-only wallet capabilities
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 281 2014-02-13 01:31:20 * Zarutian has seen too many OverlyExtenedTwoLetteredAcronyms and OverUsedThreeLetteredAcronyms.
 282 2014-02-13 01:31:23 <coinz4me> Sooo um how is that better than a brainwallet?
 283 2014-02-13 01:31:35 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: a human didn't generate the seed
 284 2014-02-13 01:31:47 <coinz4me> Especially if you change brain wallet to use 2 factors.
 285 2014-02-13 01:31:47 <lnovy> people are stupid, that is the difference
 286 2014-02-13 01:32:06 <coinz4me> A machine seed and a really strong password
 287 2014-02-13 01:32:06 <Zarutian> coinz4me: does hunter2 ring any bells? or even pa55w0rd? ;-Þ
 288 2014-02-13 01:32:06 <Luke-Jr> meh, even smart humans are incapable of entropy
 289 2014-02-13 01:32:14 <Luke-Jr> the human brain is anti-entropy.
 290 2014-02-13 01:32:14 <lnovy> yep
 291 2014-02-13 01:32:22 <coinz4me> Hey how come you guessed my brainwallet?  Zaurtian?
 292 2014-02-13 01:32:31 <coinz4me> ;)
 293 2014-02-13 01:32:58 <lnovy> I've seen a nice test in javascript when you clicked randomly 1 or 0 and the script was guessing what you will click next, I was almost shocked :)
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 295 2014-02-13 01:33:48 <coinz4me> So yeah, use a single seed and a vector.  It's not really any different than a brainwallet comprised of 2 parts that are stored offline.  They are functionally identical.
 296 2014-02-13 01:34:05 <coinz4me> Oh one reason for a static key.  Proof of control of funds.
 297 2014-02-13 01:34:16 <jcorgan> lnovy: that's why it is actually possible to win at rock-paper-scissors if you are observant enough
 298 2014-02-13 01:34:23 <coinz4me> I know it's not a use case bitcoind was made for, but serious.
 299 2014-02-13 01:34:34 <lnovy> jcorgan: meh, stone always wins :)
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 301 2014-02-13 01:34:49 <Zarutian> lnovy: and people look on me in askance when I use two four side die to generate hex WPA2 keys.
 302 2014-02-13 01:35:01 <coinz4me> If I want to know if my accountant is on the take, being able to audit activity against a single address makes life much easier.
 303 2014-02-13 01:35:07 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: a watch-only copy of your HD wallet is just as much proof as anything
 304 2014-02-13 01:35:36 _ImI_ has joined
 305 2014-02-13 01:35:41 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: spying on people is not really a goal of bitcoin..
 306 2014-02-13 01:35:58 <coinz4me> Fine luke and I'm not arguing with you on the point of HD wallets.  I solemnly swear the day bitcoind supports it, I will actually and in fact use it.
 307 2014-02-13 01:36:45 <coinz4me> Actually Luke it's the primary goal of bitcoin.  A public transaction record, consensus and accountabilty based on the mathematical intractability of ecdsa signature forgery.
 308 2014-02-13 01:36:58 <andytoshi> why do you need bitcoind to support it? this is simple math and there is software out there which does it for you
 309 2014-02-13 01:37:10 <coinz4me> Yes spying on people is actually a primary goal of bitcoin :)
 310 2014-02-13 01:37:29 <Zarutian> at least on the transaction of plethora of psueonyms?
 311 2014-02-13 01:37:38 <Zarutian> transactions*
 312 2014-02-13 01:38:36 <coinz4me> andystoshi  My assumption is that if it were really a good idea the folks that build this thing would have incorporated it.  If not then there is likely something fundamentally wrong with the idea.
 313 2014-02-13 01:38:50 <coinz4me> Why take the risk, I mean honestly?
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 316 2014-02-13 01:39:22 <coinz4me> At least with a list of static watch only addresses, I already understand the risk and I've deemed it manageable.
 317 2014-02-13 01:39:32 <Zarutian> coinz4me: eh? strange way to say: if it wasnae invented yet then it nae good.
 318 2014-02-13 01:39:44 <andytoshi> if you can't evaluate these ideas you are not smart enough to be doing payment processing
 319 2014-02-13 01:39:46 <coinz4me> Huh?  I never said that
 320 2014-02-13 01:39:54 <andytoshi> plonk
 321 2014-02-13 01:39:56 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: you understand that you are compromising the privacy of EVERYONE YOU INTERACT WITH?
 322 2014-02-13 01:40:05 <coinz4me> It's not the idea it's the implementation of the idea.
 323 2014-02-13 01:40:06 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: and you consider that a decision you have the right to make?
 324 2014-02-13 01:40:19 <coinz4me> You're assuming I would have a single static address
 325 2014-02-13 01:40:27 <Zarutian> coinz4me: your message that starts with "My assumption is that if it were really a good idea..."
 326 2014-02-13 01:40:31 volante has joined
 327 2014-02-13 01:40:45 <Zarutian> andytoshi: that drastic eh?
 328 2014-02-13 01:40:53 <coinz4me> Hold on I can't talk with all 3 of you at once....
 329 2014-02-13 01:41:01 <jcorgan> meh, coinz4me is just trolling
 330 2014-02-13 01:41:16 <coinz4me> Here's the deal.  You guys all 3 of you are being very short sighted.
 331 2014-02-13 01:41:33 <coinz4me> I swear to god I'm not trolling, just because I have a different opinion than you does no make it a troll.
 332 2014-02-13 01:41:53 <coinz4me> Which is the main reason I'm asking all 3 of you to bite tongues for a min and let me explain...
 333 2014-02-13 01:42:02 <Zarutian> plonk indeed
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 335 2014-02-13 01:42:23 <andytoshi> Zarutian: yeah, payment processing with a cryptocurrency requires a grade-school understanding of cryptography. if you can't do that then pay someone else to.
 336 2014-02-13 01:42:31 <coinz4me> Hash Deterministic or HD wallets are nothing more than a brain wallet when it comes down to it.  If it's deterministic then basically if anyone uncovers the algo and seed, you're hosed.
 337 2014-02-13 01:42:35 <coinz4me> Argue that please.
 338 2014-02-13 01:42:37 <andytoshi> but the plonk was just for the beligerance, he could've been djb and i'd have ignored him
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 340 2014-02-13 01:42:43 <skinnkavaj> <+Luke-Jr> the thing about the sun running out of energy before your private key is cracked, only applies if you use it once
 341 2014-02-13 01:42:44 <skinnkavaj> <+Luke-Jr> if you use it more than once, it no longer is necessarily true
 342 2014-02-13 01:42:46 <skinnkavaj> Can you explain this?
 343 2014-02-13 01:42:59 <skinnkavaj> Why isn't it true any longer?
 344 2014-02-13 01:43:27 <coinz4me> OTOH if I pregen a list of say 100k addresses, stick them in a wallet as watch only, then how is that not MORE secure than luke's idea of an HD wallet?
 345 2014-02-13 01:43:43 <andytoshi> skinnkavaj: it might still be true, but there is no security proof of ecdsa so it's a prudent assumption that unnecessary key reuse is bad
 346 2014-02-13 01:43:56 <berndj> 100k things are harder to keep secure than 1 thing?
 347 2014-02-13 01:43:59 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: because now you're depending on ECDSA, not RIPEMD160+SHA256+ECDSA
 348 2014-02-13 01:44:04 <andytoshi> and it's actually easy to screw up ecdsa so that key reuse is fatal, eg the android rng problem
 349 2014-02-13 01:44:10 <Zarutian> oh, that Sony fiasco, was it? :D
 350 2014-02-13 01:44:51 <coinz4me> I think what luke is saying is that sign you need to show your pubkey
 351 2014-02-13 01:45:01 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: ECDSA is pretty strong for a single use, but multiple uses can potentially leak information about the private key (this has happened)
 352 2014-02-13 01:45:07 <coinz4me> Thus the ripemd aspect is stripped away.
 353 2014-02-13 01:46:19 <coinz4me> I'm still waiting for someone to rebutt my previous statement about pregen 100k non-deterministic keys, put them in as addresses only into a wallet.
 354 2014-02-13 01:46:23 <coinz4me> etc
 355 2014-02-13 01:46:28 <Luke-Jr> using current best EC practices, you can probably get very strong security with multiple uses, BUT it's always possible someone discovers a new weakness in the future that breaks it retroactively
 356 2014-02-13 01:46:41 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: I actually do that.
 357 2014-02-13 01:46:46 <coinz4me> So multisig then?
 358 2014-02-13 01:46:50 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: it works fine, with no patches
 359 2014-02-13 01:46:56 rivaler has quit (Quit: rivaler)
 360 2014-02-13 01:47:14 <coinz4me> Seriously?  I've been trying to add watchonly addresses and it's there already?
 361 2014-02-13 01:47:21 <coinz4me> What the heck is the call?
 362 2014-02-13 01:47:22 <Luke-Jr> no
 363 2014-02-13 01:47:29 <Luke-Jr> there is watch-only wallets, without the HD aspect
 364 2014-02-13 01:47:44 hmsimha has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 365 2014-02-13 01:47:58 <coinz4me> Fine and how is this accomplished because it's the reason I'm trying to patch in the first place, so evidently in my absence a new feature was added.
 366 2014-02-13 01:48:03 * lnovy loves you guys for BIP32 existence
 367 2014-02-13 01:48:08 <Billdr> Is there a torrent of a testnet chain somewhere?
 368 2014-02-13 01:48:08 <Luke-Jr> you just copy the wallet, encrypt it to an impossibly long strong-entropy secret, and discard the secret
 369 2014-02-13 01:48:22 <coinz4me> Huh?
 370 2014-02-13 01:48:27 <Luke-Jr> an encrypted wallet without a known secret is watch-only.
 371 2014-02-13 01:48:39 <Zarutian> lnovy: what was BIP32 again? Sign to script?
 372 2014-02-13 01:48:48 <lnovy> HDW
 373 2014-02-13 01:48:51 <Luke-Jr> if you're paranoid, you can also hand-edit the wallet file to remove the encrypted private keys
 374 2014-02-13 01:48:52 <coinz4me> Luke that's good but could you add addreses later?
 375 2014-02-13 01:49:13 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: you'd just repeat the copy. the reason to do 10,000 is so you don't need to ;P
 376 2014-02-13 01:49:46 <coinz4me> So in otherwords no, you can't add new watch addresses as needed.
 377 2014-02-13 01:49:53 <Luke-Jr> you can, it's just a pain
 378 2014-02-13 01:49:56 <coinz4me> But the idea itself is sound, that's good to know.
 379 2014-02-13 01:50:17 <coinz4me> Lol I can't believe I
 380 2014-02-13 01:50:23 <coinz4me> ve burned that much time here.
 381 2014-02-13 01:50:37 <coinz4me> I'll shutup now and let others talk I need to get back to this patch.
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 384 2014-02-13 01:52:49 <coinz4me> Got to admit I hadn't thought about key resuse stripping away the hash and tying a pubkey to an address before.
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 397 2014-02-13 01:58:28 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: Can you not create HD wallets with bitcoin-qt?
 398 2014-02-13 01:58:38 cronus has joined
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 400 2014-02-13 01:59:12 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: not at the moment
 401 2014-02-13 01:59:15 Imbue has joined
 402 2014-02-13 01:59:17 <SomeoneWeird> skinnkavaj, i don't think so at the moment
 403 2014-02-13 01:59:20 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: Why not?
 404 2014-02-13 01:59:29 <skinnkavaj> HD wallets has existed for a while right?
 405 2014-02-13 01:59:39 <SomeoneWeird> because it hasn't been implemented? >_>
 406 2014-02-13 01:59:40 <SomeoneWeird> read the bip
 407 2014-02-13 01:59:43 <skinnkavaj> The idea
 408 2014-02-13 01:59:46 <SomeoneWeird> .. i forgot the idea
 409 2014-02-13 01:59:49 <skinnkavaj> Yeah but why
 410 2014-02-13 01:59:52 <SomeoneWeird> s/idea/number/
 411 2014-02-13 02:00:06 <skinnkavaj> If it's in Electrum and Armory
 412 2014-02-13 02:00:16 <skinnkavaj> Why not implement it in bitcoin-qt?
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 417 2014-02-13 02:03:28 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: Why wouldn't gavin get into bitcoin-qt now when it has existed for a long time in other clients?
 418 2014-02-13 02:03:40 <coinz4me> I think I've just realize why the idea of one time use addresses doesn't sit right with me...  Bare with me a minute while I try to slow my brain down enough to explain it...
 419 2014-02-13 02:03:44 flotsamuel has joined
 420 2014-02-13 02:04:06 <coinz4me> You are essentially placing a bet each time you use a new address that no one else has that same address.
 421 2014-02-13 02:04:14 <Imbue> coinz4me: yep
 422 2014-02-13 02:04:19 <coinz4me> There are only 160 bits in a bitcoin address right?
 423 2014-02-13 02:04:28 <flotsamuel> It's a very good bet, though.
 424 2014-02-13 02:04:28 <phantomcircuit> skinnkavaj, because there are issues with HD wallets that are as of yet unsolved
 425 2014-02-13 02:04:42 [\\\] has joined
 426 2014-02-13 02:04:42 <skinnkavaj> phantomcircuit: What issues? That's exactly what I want to know
 427 2014-02-13 02:04:49 <coinz4me> But there are 256 bytes in a pubkey?  I could be wrong about that I'm not looking at anything and just pulling from memory.
 428 2014-02-13 02:05:01 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: Gavin has limited time, as does everyone else. Bitcoin-Qt is very underfunded.
 429 2014-02-13 02:05:07 <Imbue> coinz4me: yes, it's a lossy step
 430 2014-02-13 02:05:16 <Imbue> coinz4me: there are many privkeys/pubkeys for each address
 431 2014-02-13 02:05:26 <phantomcircuit> skinnkavaj, how would you ever know if I walked your hdwallet public derivation key to the 100,000th node?
 432 2014-02-13 02:05:30 <phantomcircuit> you wouldn't
 433 2014-02-13 02:05:34 <coinz4me> But in a nutshell you're betting that no one else has that address vs someone evil has found a flaw in the ECDSA curve used to generate the pubkey.
 434 2014-02-13 02:05:44 <phantomcircuit> unless you generated 100,000 keys
 435 2014-02-13 02:05:56 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: the former is a much better bet
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 437 2014-02-13 02:06:24 <phantomcircuit> coinz4me, your grasp on large numbers is not good enough to understand that 2^256 is effectively infinity
 438 2014-02-13 02:06:37 <coinz4me> I really do think I want to bet on the curve.  If the curve falls someone's going to fix it in a hurry.  But if suddenly I've sent all my funds to someone else's address there isn't going to be anyone to help.
 439 2014-02-13 02:06:52 <Imbue> coinz4me: why would you send your funds to someone else's address?
 440 2014-02-13 02:07:11 jedunnigan has joined
 441 2014-02-13 02:07:13 <Imbue> coinz4me bear in mind the probability of a collision is roughly (addresses in use)/2^160
 442 2014-02-13 02:07:17 <coinz4me> phantomcircuit your grasp on large numbers is evidently not good enough to realize we aren't talking about 2^256 we're dealing with 2^160
 443 2014-02-13 02:07:24 <skinnkavaj> phantomcircuit: So that ruins the whole purpose of HD wallets then?
 444 2014-02-13 02:07:45 <coinz4me> Also a conversion step from 2^256 to 2^160th an NOT causing a collision?
 445 2014-02-13 02:07:53 chavenor01 has joined
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 447 2014-02-13 02:07:56 <phantomcircuit> skinnkavaj, it's a significant implementation challenge, essentially you have to pick how far you want to walk the chain
 448 2014-02-13 02:08:09 <phantomcircuit> and iirc even whether you want to walk branches of the chain
 449 2014-02-13 02:08:15 aahz has joined
 450 2014-02-13 02:08:35 <coinz4me> Yes imbue and as addresses in use are probably actually only 1 out of 1000 that are actually generated.
 451 2014-02-13 02:08:40 <coinz4me> In time this becomes a real problem.
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 454 2014-02-13 02:09:01 <coinz4me> Still if there WAS an address collision, no one would do anything.
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 457 2014-02-13 02:09:12 <coinz4me> OTOH if ECDSA fell, there would be rapid action.
 458 2014-02-13 02:09:22 <phantomcircuit> sure it becomes a problem, but several hundred billion years after the earth has been engulfed by the expanding sun
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 465 2014-02-13 02:10:02 <phantomcircuit> better get ready for it
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 474 2014-02-13 02:11:15 <coinz4me> I'm not buying it phantomcircuit.  It's a non-zero probability and it doesn't change over time.  The more addresses in use the higher the likelyhood of a collision.  If there is a collision and I happen to be on the wrong side of it, then I've just lost all my coins.  OTOH by reusing an address at least once in a while you are less likely to be impacted by an address collision.
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 482 2014-02-13 02:12:08 <coinz4me> Also by reusing an address at least from time to time, you're betting that a collision is more likely than a flaw.
 483 2014-02-13 02:12:09 ashgaroth2 has joined
 484 2014-02-13 02:12:39 <coinz4me> Also remember the hash algo could be subject to a flaw that would increase the likelyhood of a collision.
 485 2014-02-13 02:12:45 <coinz4me> We might never know.
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 488 2014-02-13 02:13:21 <Billdr> You laugh now, but when I'm a mostly robotic cyborg living on Europa I'll want Bitcoin to be stable.
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 494 2014-02-13 02:13:51 <coinz4me> Anyways that's what didn't sit right with me about the idea.  Hash algorithms fall all the time.  You're betting on no collisions and no flaws.
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 499 2014-02-13 02:14:16 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: reusing an address is more vulnerable to hash collisions
 500 2014-02-13 02:14:19 <Luke-Jr> not less
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 504 2014-02-13 02:14:35 <coinz4me> Ok now my curiosity is piqued.  Please explain.
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 580 2014-02-13 02:15:58 <coinz4me> OMG, server split or what?
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 587 2014-02-13 02:16:14 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: if someone has a way to get collisions, address reuse allows them to target a single hash
 588 2014-02-13 02:16:15 <cysm> my other machine just lagged out ^
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 596 2014-02-13 02:16:28 <Luke-Jr> whereas multiple addresses would need them to collide multiple
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 611 2014-02-13 02:16:56 <coinz4me> Ok, fair enough.  I stand corrected.
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 626 2014-02-13 02:18:27 <darsie> Can the exchanges just stop automatic resend of appearently failed withdrawals and continue normally, processing tickets about failed withdrawals manually?
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 631 2014-02-13 02:18:51 <Luke-Jr> darsie: off-topic
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 640 2014-02-13 02:18:58 <darsie> sorry
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 650 2014-02-13 02:19:14 <darsie> #mtgox?
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 652 2014-02-13 02:19:17 <coinz4me> Hmm netsplit
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 662 2014-02-13 02:19:33 * Luke-Jr kicks freenode
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 665 2014-02-13 02:19:41 <Billdr> #bitcoin is probably an okay place to talk about it as it impacts more than one exchange.
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 669 2014-02-13 02:19:54 <darsie> k
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 695 2014-02-13 02:22:29 <Billdr> There is no testnet blockchain torrent, then?
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 721 2014-02-13 02:24:41 <coinz4me> So the question I have is, if someone went to the trouble of implementing HD wallets, would it even be accepted into the mainline?  I mean weren't there pull requests that added this in the past?
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 727 2014-02-13 02:25:16 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: there have not been, no
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 733 2014-02-13 02:25:27 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: accepting anything into mainline requires testing and review
 734 2014-02-13 02:25:37 <Luke-Jr> not just "I used it, it works" testing, real automated unit tests
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 736 2014-02-13 02:25:59 <Luke-Jr> there *are* HD wallet code foundations in B-Qt, merged and all
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 738 2014-02-13 02:26:04 <Luke-Jr> just not a complete wallet
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 754 2014-02-13 02:27:33 <coinz4me> Or is it really that no one has ever offered up a pull request with it in?
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 776 2014-02-13 02:29:45 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: nobody has written the code to finish it yet
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 803 2014-02-13 02:32:58 <draino> so could a decentralized web of trust system be layered onto bitcoin using deterministic wallets?  how would that even work, wallet software just agrees that this new layer makes sense and implement it?
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 871 2014-02-13 02:42:38 <coinz4me> Anyone know if LogPrintf is old code or new stuff?  I'm trying to debug a patch that went badly.
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 875 2014-02-13 02:43:07 <jgarzik> coinz4me, it is a new name for a facility that has existed for a long time
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 902 2014-02-13 02:45:33 <coinz4me> Ok just trying to identify if the particular section was inserted by the patch, or if it was there.  I'm getting a not defined on it, but I'm working on a heavily forked codebase too.
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 921 2014-02-13 02:47:34 <coinz4me> So is pwallet->nTimeFirstKey just there to tell the wallet that this is the first time we've seen a key and we need to rescan?
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 928 2014-02-13 02:48:15 <coinz4me> Or something else?  The codebase I'm working on shows it as undefined, but it's included in a patch that I'm trying to apply (line by line) :(
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 951 2014-02-13 02:49:53 <Zarutian> what is it with freenode lately? Are their IRC servers under DDoS attacks?
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 954 2014-02-13 02:50:22 <coinz4me> net split maybe?
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 987 2014-02-13 02:53:59 <coinz4me> Are we done with the netsplit now?  Can we have a conversation?
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 994 2014-02-13 02:54:52 <coinz4me> Is there any particular reason that there isn't support for each account being it's own wallet?  Rather than a single wallet.dat wouldn't it just make so much more sense to have alice.dat bob.dat ?
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1030 2014-02-13 03:00:51 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: multi-wallet support would be accepted (once tested, etc)
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1032 2014-02-13 03:01:15 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: but just because you can, does not mean it's a good idea to have separate wallets for every account
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1035 2014-02-13 03:01:33 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: putting multiple accounts into a wallet has few drawbacks, and many advantages
1036 2014-02-13 03:01:36 <coinz4me> Explain?
1037 2014-02-13 03:01:44 <andytoshi> hi, may i be revoiced?
1038 2014-02-13 03:02:03 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: for example, if each account has its own wallet, sending would need to use only coins in that wallet
1039 2014-02-13 03:02:04 <coinz4me> Such as...?
1040 2014-02-13 03:02:25 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: but with A, B, C, and D using the same wallet, the wallet can use coins received by any of them
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1047 2014-02-13 03:02:46 <Luke-Jr> thus avoiding/reducing transaction fees, improving privacy, etc
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1049 2014-02-13 03:03:06 <coinz4me> Which is sort of the purpose of an account isn't it?  If they want to mix funds then create an account "shared" and move some funds over.
1050 2014-02-13 03:03:26 <lianj> Luke-Jr: most important it helps with cold storage
1051 2014-02-13 03:03:27 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: mixing in that sense is likely illegal.
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1053 2014-02-13 03:03:36 <Luke-Jr> lianj: right, that too; except bitcoind lacks that support :P
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1060 2014-02-13 03:04:09 <coinz4me> I'm not seeing, the ability to not let my kids spend my bitcoins as being a problem :)
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1062 2014-02-13 03:04:13 <wyager> Luke-Jr: I'm not sure how that would be illegal. coinz4me seems to be suggesting accounts as an absolute separation of identity, until the user specified otherwise, which I think is reasonable
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1076 2014-02-13 03:05:10 <coinz4me> OTOH I've also been a huge proponent of implementing real accounts and ACLs on this thing too.
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1078 2014-02-13 03:05:43 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: that would be sweet
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1080 2014-02-13 03:05:44 <coinz4me> Ideally, one copy of the blockchain shared amongst all the accounts on a given box, with each account on it's own wallet.
1081 2014-02-13 03:05:47 <lianj> coinz4me: sounds like you need to define what you want it for. if its for you and your kids, it sounds fine. if its so a wallet service with 100s accounts maybe not
1082 2014-02-13 03:05:57 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: ideally all sharing a single wallet.
1083 2014-02-13 03:06:13 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: as long as they're staying on the same computer, there is really no benefit to separating out wallets
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1087 2014-02-13 03:06:31 <wyager> There is certainly a benefit!
1088 2014-02-13 03:06:32 <Luke-Jr> lianj: hey, if he can make it scale to 100s of accounts, more power to him! :P
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1090 2014-02-13 03:06:37 <wyager> It makes blockchain data mining a lot harder!
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1092 2014-02-13 03:06:43 <Luke-Jr> wyager: no, it makes it easier
1093 2014-02-13 03:06:51 <wyager> That is definitely not the case
1094 2014-02-13 03:06:54 <coinz4me> I dunno, let me think about this for awhile.  And yes there is a benefit.  Little johnny goes off to college he can take his bitcoins with him without any danger of taking mine.
1095 2014-02-13 03:06:56 <wyager> we may be imagining different things
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1097 2014-02-13 03:07:26 <Luke-Jr> wyager: a wallet with a single account is quite simple to trace by default
1098 2014-02-13 03:07:28 <lianj> coinz4me: you can send little johnny the coins to his new addresses then
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1101 2014-02-13 03:07:46 <coinz4me> You're assuming I didn't kick him out.
1102 2014-02-13 03:07:47 <Luke-Jr> wyager: a wallet with numerous accounts, on the other hand, is hard to trace since it has an implicit CoinJoin-type thing
1103 2014-02-13 03:07:48 <coinz4me> :)
1104 2014-02-13 03:08:15 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: if you kicked him out, then you wouldn't give him his wallet anyway :P
1105 2014-02-13 03:08:18 <coinz4me> Point is if each person has a "wallet file" they can carry around with them, it opens up possibilities you may not be seeing.
1106 2014-02-13 03:08:20 <wyager> I agree. I thought you were saying the opposite
1107 2014-02-13 03:08:34 <Luke-Jr> coinz4me: it's not very wise to carry your money with you :P
1108 2014-02-13 03:08:45 <wyager> I thought we were talking about money separation, not wallet file separation
1109 2014-02-13 03:08:51 <coinz4me> Still ACLs and real seperation of identity would be a good feature add.
1110 2014-02-13 03:09:04 <coinz4me> We're carrying on two conversations that's why you're getting confused.
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1112 2014-02-13 03:09:23 <coinz4me> 2 different ideas and I'm weighing the pros and cons of each.
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1114 2014-02-13 03:09:28 <wyager> Gotcha. I think money separation is definitely a great idea, wallet file separation ain't a bad one
1115 2014-02-13 03:09:35 <wyager> jm2c ;)
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1119 2014-02-13 03:10:11 <lianj> coinz4me: are you talking about 5 users or 100?
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1123 2014-02-13 03:10:25 <coinz4me> I want to add ACLs for bitcoin RPC as well.  It would be nice to not effectively give the ability to send all my coins off to someone who might only need to check a balance.
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1128 2014-02-13 03:10:54 <coinz4me> Lianj, if I did it I would make it for 100s, because that isn't anymore difficult than making it for 5
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1132 2014-02-13 03:11:37 <lianj> coinz4me: if you make it for 100 you want a hotwallet and a cold one. if each account is seperated that gets hard or impossible
1133 2014-02-13 03:12:17 <coinz4me> I think it depends on what you're doing.  But I do wonder about bitcoind's ability to keep up with that many.
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1136 2014-02-13 03:13:12 <lianj> thats why i asked what you intend to do
1137 2014-02-13 03:13:22 <coinz4me> I would honestly rather have it just keep each block intact until all funds have been spent.  But if I'm reading this right, it actually only pays attention and stores info for keys it currently has.  If you add keys later it has to rescan the whole dang block chain.
1138 2014-02-13 03:13:25 <coinz4me> Well....
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1142 2014-02-13 03:13:57 <coinz4me> I intend to bounce the idea around in my head for a few weeks, see if anyone makes any progress on the idea then come back in and claim it was all my idea in the first place.
1143 2014-02-13 03:14:02 <coinz4me> :)
1144 2014-02-13 03:14:46 <coinz4me> In otherwords I don't know I need time to think.  In my case I'm not just talking about work on bitcoind.
1145 2014-02-13 03:14:53 <coinz4me> There are other systems involved.
1146 2014-02-13 03:14:57 <lianj> you haven't define what you want to solve with that idea. to sum it up, you want to build a service ontop of that or use it inside the family context
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1148 2014-02-13 03:15:14 <coinz4me> Both
1149 2014-02-13 03:15:27 <lianj> both have different solutions then.
1150 2014-02-13 03:15:38 <coinz4me> So build for the large and scale down.  Always easier than building for the small and trying to scale up.
1151 2014-02-13 03:15:48 <coinz4me> bbiab
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1168 2014-02-13 03:24:27 <coinz4me> Well I have a fully functional watch wallet, so thanks for the help guys!
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1289 2014-02-13 04:35:46 <freewil> how can i fix my wallet that has a stuck outgoing tx (i assume because it used unconfirmed change from a tx that was muted)
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1291 2014-02-13 04:36:40 <helo> is it true that ltc developers have been helping with bitcoin development?
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1307 2014-02-13 04:50:00 <dust-otc> +helo: I think i've seen Warren contribute some to bitcoin
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1345 2014-02-13 05:29:48 <maaku> helo: protocol developers don't necessarily wear hats. litecoin has been funding some developers to work on generally applicable tech
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1418 2014-02-13 06:39:32 <gmaxwell> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1xqh51/new_mycelium_wallet_feature_confirmations_within/
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1421 2014-02-13 06:40:38 <petertodd> I need to have a word with mycelium...
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1424 2014-02-13 06:41:25 <warren> great idea!
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1426 2014-02-13 06:42:42 <gmaxwell> eventually I'm going to have to stop paying attention to Bitcoin, because few other things can make you feel like such an idiot for not being a theif.  "It's like they're giving! all their monies away!"
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1430 2014-02-13 06:44:00 <gmaxwell> been watching people doing goxcoin for btc trades recently, people selling at the current prices of 70 cts on the dollar are people who are very concerned about risk; so it's unsurprising to see them want to split their 100 btc trade into 20 5 btc transfers.
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1432 2014-02-13 06:44:06 <petertodd> I should do a video where I exploit that
1433 2014-02-13 06:44:18 <gmaxwell> What was interesting to me is that they seemed generally happy to let all those transfers go through unconfirmed.
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1435 2014-02-13 06:44:45 <gmaxwell> so they hypercontrolled for one part of the risk by minimizing their incremental exposure, while ignoring the other.
1436 2014-02-13 06:45:06 <lnovy> omg, just omg
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1438 2014-02-13 06:46:25 <petertodd> their proposes application is especially insane as all you have to do is fine a transaction type that happens to be accepted by most of the network, but ignored by some, and broadcast to the "some" part later
1439 2014-02-13 06:46:38 <petertodd> e.g. double-spend notifications don't help you one bit
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1441 2014-02-13 06:47:20 <petertodd> they really should do a localbitcoins-style escrow service with multisig
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1444 2014-02-13 06:48:44 <abrkn> gmaxwell: "people selling at the current prices of 70 cts on the dollar are people who are very concerned about risk" --sounds like they should refrain from speculating in digital currencies
1445 2014-02-13 06:48:52 <petertodd> oh, which reminds me: I was thinking if we had a new checksig type that could hash only input scriptPubKeys, not txids (or even input amounts), we'd be able to have mycelium do escrow while also providing you with *generic* signatures that could spend any txout with the given scriptPubKeys, but only after the nLockTime expired
1446 2014-02-13 06:49:08 <petertodd> guaranteed that youre money will unlock eventually even if mycelium gets hit by a bus
1447 2014-02-13 06:49:38 <gmaxwell> abrkn: well there are degress of risk within risk. I mean your coin is already risky and maybe thats your tolerance level. :)
1448 2014-02-13 06:49:38 <petertodd> amusingly you can do something kinda similar now with the sighash_single index bug...
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1450 2014-02-13 06:50:19 <gmaxwell> There are people with infinite risk tolerance, but on interaction with a gambling site they become bankrupt and thus no longer interesting to investigation.
1451 2014-02-13 06:50:19 <abrkn> gmaxwell: 70 on the dollar, that's pretty presimistic
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1464 2014-02-13 06:54:37 <abrkn> gmaxwell: i'm seeing 15 transactions stuck at 0 conf in my wallet (listtransactions), starting feb 9th and no new ones for the last 12+ hours. should i be running fixwallet and rescan?
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1494 2014-02-13 07:24:32 <venzen> hi all, quick question: when issuing 'bitcoind listtransactions' there are two timestamps at the end of output: time & timereceived...   what's the difference and which is better to use when tracking a txn?
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1525 2014-02-13 07:50:58 <venzen> i was marked as 'away' - not sure my post showed up previously...
1526 2014-02-13 07:51:03 <venzen> ;seen venzen
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1528 2014-02-13 07:51:16 <venzen> hi all, quick question: when issuing 'bitcoind listtransactions' there are two timestamps at the end of output: time & timereceived...   what's the difference and which is better to use when tracking a txn?
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1532 2014-02-13 07:53:04 <davout> so i tried to run with -txindex=1 on 0.9, it did request me to add a -rescan and restart, which i did, but after rescanning i'm still unable to query for arbitrary TXIDs
1533 2014-02-13 07:53:47 <davout> also if I reboot the client with -txindex=1 i see absolutely nothing in the log indicating the load of transaction indexes
1534 2014-02-13 07:53:48 <TheBison> venzen... IIRC, timereceived is when your client first learned about the transaction. time is the actual transaction timestamp. Normally time and timereceived will be the same, unless your client is offline when the transaction is sent.
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1539 2014-02-13 07:57:17 <davout> also tried adding the option in the bitcoin.conf without much success either
1540 2014-02-13 07:58:46 <wumpus> github is turning into a madhouse
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1548 2014-02-13 08:02:11 <abrkn> davout: i think you need to run once with -reindex and -txindex
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1550 2014-02-13 08:02:38 <davout> that's what i did, took a while as expected, but it doesn't look like it did anything
1551 2014-02-13 08:02:49 <davout> except rescanning ofc
1552 2014-02-13 08:03:01 <davout> but maybe it's my expectations that are wrong here
1553 2014-02-13 08:03:10 <abrkn> then i don't know
1554 2014-02-13 08:03:19 <davout> i'm expecting to be able to do a simple gettransaction on any tx after thath
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1557 2014-02-13 08:04:06 <freewil> davout - i believe gettransaction is only for wallet txs
1558 2014-02-13 08:04:17 <freewil> you have to use getrawtransaction for non-wallet if you have -txindex enabled
1559 2014-02-13 08:04:19 <abrkn> i run with -txindex=1 and am able to getrawtransaction on arbitrary tx
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1561 2014-02-13 08:04:51 <davout> the problem i have with getrawtx is that i don't see a way to tell how confirmed a tx is
1562 2014-02-13 08:06:59 <freewil> the output of getrawtransaction has a confirmations key
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1567 2014-02-13 08:09:17 <davout> freewil: you sure ?
1568 2014-02-13 08:09:32 <freewil> yeah i just checked
1569 2014-02-13 08:09:42 <davout> chained it with decoderawtx and there's no "confirmations" in sight
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1571 2014-02-13 08:10:19 <freewil> hm
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1573 2014-02-13 08:10:25 <freewil> i tried it with a wallet tx
1574 2014-02-13 08:10:29 <gmaxwell> it has a confirmations key but only if the the transaction has confirmations.
1575 2014-02-13 08:10:31 <freewil> not sure if that makes a diff
1576 2014-02-13 08:10:34 <gmaxwell> I thought.
1577 2014-02-13 08:10:36 * gmaxwell checks
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1584 2014-02-13 08:11:21 <gmaxwell>     "confirmations" : 6,
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1587 2014-02-13 08:11:46 <gmaxwell> yep, checked it on some random txn in the blockchain.
1588 2014-02-13 08:11:51 <davout> getrawtx on 0.9 returns some hex, which, chained into decoderawtx does not contain the flag
1589 2014-02-13 08:11:58 <davout> i'll paste you something
1590 2014-02-13 08:12:14 <davout> i'd actually be very happy to be proven an idiot here :-)
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1592 2014-02-13 08:12:48 <freewil> davout there is a second param for getrawtransaction that outputs the actual json
1593 2014-02-13 08:12:57 <freewil> just pass 1 as the second param
1594 2014-02-13 08:13:00 <Luke-Jr> davout: of course decoderawtx doesn't.
1595 2014-02-13 08:13:14 Neseface has joined
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1597 2014-02-13 08:13:24 <Luke-Jr> block depth is not part of the transaction data
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1599 2014-02-13 08:13:40 <davout> Luke-Jr: yep, ofc, it's meta
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1606 2014-02-13 08:14:34 <davout> freewil gmaxwell it does indeed work this way, yay!
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1613 2014-02-13 08:15:03 <davout> Luke-Jr: that's why i was trying with gettx after a tx reindex, thinking just that
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1623 2014-02-13 08:15:49 <davout> thank you for the help!
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1634 2014-02-13 08:17:07 <jcorgan> davout: out of curiosity, how long did your reindex take
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1643 2014-02-13 08:18:44 <davout> jcorgan: took 5 hours on a macbook air /w SSD drive
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1646 2014-02-13 08:19:08 <jcorgan> good data point
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1650 2014-02-13 08:19:50 <abrkn> haha
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1654 2014-02-13 08:20:14 <abrkn> i have one of those myself. nearly melts every time i run bitcoind
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1675 2014-02-13 08:26:07 <davout> abrkn: seems to run just fine with me, what's your problem with it, CPU ?
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1690 2014-02-13 08:28:44 <abrkn> davout: yep, fans start running pretty wild when catching up with the network. maybe it's because i run with txindex
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1705 2014-02-13 08:36:09 * uiop sneezed and it sounded like s/leveldb/sqlite/
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1707 2014-02-13 08:36:29 <uiop> apologized, i'm over the legal limit
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1719 2014-02-13 08:45:56 <wumpus> could be useful for people that want to look at transactions that are inaccessible with getrawtransaction but are in the wallet: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3663
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1752 2014-02-13 09:12:50 <waxwing> wrt tx malleability, might there be some value in wallets automatically splitting large utxos into various smaller "denominations"? messy idea maybe but just a thought.
1753 2014-02-13 09:14:54 <wumpus> waxwing: you mean for high frequency wallets? it's not something to be encouraged in general as you'll create a lot of extra clutter in everyone's UTXO database
1754 2014-02-13 09:15:18 <waxwing> i was thinking more about the reference client, and about consumer/user experience
1755 2014-02-13 09:15:27 napedia has joined
1756 2014-02-13 09:15:35 <waxwing> people were saying how scary it would be if you spent 1 btc out of your 100 btc and you couldn't spend the rest
1757 2014-02-13 09:16:04 <gmaxwell> For some sufficient value of large it probably makes sense. But generally if your breaking makes outputs smaller than your tx sizes you will increase the frees users end up paying, slow their transaction, etc.
1758 2014-02-13 09:16:07 <wumpus> disabling spending of unconfirmed change should be enough for most people, except those that send a lot of transactions at unpredictable rates
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1760 2014-02-13 09:17:07 <gmaxwell> wumpus: issue there is that it leaves you stuck for a long time, but if your inputs have been split thats less likely.
1761 2014-02-13 09:17:13 <waxwing> i tend to agree wumpus. i think my own suggestion is a bit rubbish :)
1762 2014-02-13 09:17:50 <gmaxwell> But e.g. if your averge payment is 1 BTC there is really little reason to have a 50 btc output, and little harm to the network in you having 5 10 btc outputs.
1763 2014-02-13 09:17:53 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well if you have only one input then it could be annoying yes, it would allow sending only one transaction every 10 minutes
1764 2014-02-13 09:18:00 <wumpus> gmaxwell: (or until the previous one confirms)
1765 2014-02-13 09:18:08 <gmaxwell> wumpus: some usage patterns result in having only one output too.
1766 2014-02-13 09:18:34 <wumpus> using sendmany would be better though
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1768 2014-02-13 09:18:41 <gmaxwell> e.g. you move all your funds from one wallet/service to another.
1769 2014-02-13 09:18:43 <gmaxwell> Indeed.
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1771 2014-02-13 09:19:05 <gmaxwell> yea, a lot of the unconfirmed chains that show up could better be done with sendmany or a queuing send.
1772 2014-02-13 09:19:11 <wumpus> of course, you can sendmany to yourself to break up your denominations so to say, but if everyone started doing that automatically you'd get a lot of UTXO clutter
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1774 2014-02-13 09:19:52 <Cocodude> Just FYI, as a horrible workaround for now, when the number of confirmed inputs in my wallet drops to about 10, I issue a manual sendmany from my wallet to other addresses in my wallet, splitting up a ~10BTC input into 10 x 1 BTC inputs.
1775 2014-02-13 09:20:08 <Cocodude> So I do exactly what wumpus says, but don't think it should be a default!
1776 2014-02-13 09:20:24 <gmaxwell> wumpus: a reason to automate it would be to avoid people doing it in a very cluttering way manually.
1777 2014-02-13 09:20:34 <waxwing> perhaps it's what should be done for grandma's wallet, so to speak
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1779 2014-02-13 09:20:57 <gmaxwell> e.g. based on reasonable targets for how many utxo you keep around and what their sizes are.
1780 2014-02-13 09:21:44 <wumpus> waxwing: I don't think your typical grandma will send more than 1 transaction per 10 minutes, on average :P certainly not unpredictable patterns...
1781 2014-02-13 09:21:56 <gmaxwell> and really any negative impact could probably be absorbed by making it also suck up tiny outputs you have or trying to exhaust all coins paid to a single address.
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1783 2014-02-13 09:22:03 <waxwing> wumpus, not in unpredictable patterns, but: buy coffee, then "oh i forgot", then buy donut
1784 2014-02-13 09:22:04 <wumpus> waxwing: if she wants to send coins to all her grandchildren she can use a sendmany and do it at once
1785 2014-02-13 09:22:12 <Cocodude> Can the stochasitic matching of which inputs to use be tweaked to try and maintain a certain level and size of available inputs? I looked at the code but it scared me.
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1787 2014-02-13 09:22:25 <waxwing> wumpus, as was pointed out on btctalk, this scenario would be a bit nasty in a coffee shop
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1790 2014-02-13 09:23:23 <gmaxwell> Cocodude: the knapsack solver right now just tries to minimize the amount of change, it could target any value or spectrum of values without too much work.
1791 2014-02-13 09:23:31 <wumpus> waxwing: eventually we'll stamp out most/all the malleability in txids I hope and we can just start using chains of unconfirmed transactions again...
1792 2014-02-13 09:23:49 sdsd has joined
1793 2014-02-13 09:23:49 <waxwing> oh ok. i got the impression it was a long way off.
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1796 2014-02-13 09:24:06 <wumpus> it may be, I don't know, but I don't like overdesigning intermediate solutions
1797 2014-02-13 09:24:18 <waxwing> gmaxwell, you have a knapsack solver in bitcoin? cool :)
1798 2014-02-13 09:24:25 <wumpus> yes we do :)
1799 2014-02-13 09:24:26 <Cocodude> gmaxwell: Thought so. I wonder whether this would be a reasonable interim solution to help clients maintain a suitable level confirmed txns? It'd be a tricky one to determine what the right level is for any given client though.
1800 2014-02-13 09:24:41 <waxwing> that's np hard isn't it.
1801 2014-02-13 09:24:43 <gmaxwell> waxwing: well, related problem, it's a subset sum problem.
1802 2014-02-13 09:24:56 <Cocodude> It's clever, but not for the feint of heart.
1803 2014-02-13 09:25:09 <Cocodude> I certainly didn't want to touch it, hence my workaround to use sendmany regularly.
1804 2014-02-13 09:25:20 <wumpus> you'd kind of need to predict user behavior
1805 2014-02-13 09:25:29 <Cocodude> Yeah, that's where it gets tough
1806 2014-02-13 09:25:43 <gmaxwell> maybe faster getting malleability closed now that people care a bunch. A big part of the slowness in updating is major services who won't upgrade their software, esp ones with custom code.
1807 2014-02-13 09:25:47 <xiando> waxwing: Nobody will "buy coffee" with bitcoin. It's fee structure makes it a total failure for micropayments or small payments. This is something no devs or other people with a vested in bitcoin wants to talk about but it's true.
1808 2014-02-13 09:26:24 <gmaxwell> A fun example is that v0.8 stopped relaying/mining invalidly encoded DER, and mtgox only stopped generating invalid der quite recently.
1809 2014-02-13 09:26:25 <Cocodude> Maybe ./bitcoind -usagetype=high could try to maintain lots of inputs
1810 2014-02-13 09:27:07 <wumpus> grandma might want to order lot's of 0.002 BTC coffees, but she may also want to send all her 1000 BTC at once, and if it just got cut into all 0.002 denominations then that will be one big expensive transaction
1811 2014-02-13 09:27:27 <Cocodude> Yup, it'd be a back either way
1812 2014-02-13 09:27:28 <Cocodude> *hack
1813 2014-02-13 09:27:29 <waxwing> wumpus, i was thinking more along the lines of powers of 2
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1815 2014-02-13 09:27:41 <waxwing> although.. that doesn't work either, does it :)
1816 2014-02-13 09:27:44 <gmaxwell> xiando: it can be helpful to seperate bitcoin the currency and bitcoin the payment network. It's perfectly possible to transact in bitcoin value without making one bitcoin transaction per transaction.  There are many ways with a host of different security tradeoffs, all sutiable for coffee.. some offering instant confirmation, which is handy in that case.
1817 2014-02-13 09:28:31 <gmaxwell> One idea I had wrt change that I like was trying to match the change to the payment amount, potentially adding two change outputs to do so.
1818 2014-02-13 09:28:36 <Cocodude> wumpus: I get more than splitting everying into 0.002 I'm thinking of a general pool size taking into account number of dominations and their size.
1819 2014-02-13 09:28:44 <Cocodude> wumpus: Not just splitting up everything into a certain size
1820 2014-02-13 09:28:46 <wumpus> gmaxwell: multi change outputs would be nice :)
1821 2014-02-13 09:28:55 * Cocodude nods
1822 2014-02-13 09:28:55 <waxwing> wumpus, for a consumer wallet, it's better to have expensive for the ultra rare case of sending out everything, than problems buying coffee. maybe.
1823 2014-02-13 09:28:57 <gmaxwell> This would make your change sort of automatically model your spending, and could also increase privacy since it would be less clear which output(s) were change.
1824 2014-02-13 09:29:04 <wumpus> than at least you won't be introducing extra transactions
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1827 2014-02-13 09:29:29 <wumpus> waxwing: I really don't want to make that choice for users
1828 2014-02-13 09:29:32 <gmaxwell> waxwing: well if the result would be over 100kb that transaction would fail. and 1000 btc split into 0.02 would be. :)
1829 2014-02-13 09:30:01 <wumpus> waxwing: also bitcoin-qt/d is hardly a consumer wallet
1830 2014-02-13 09:30:19 <waxwing> yes i totally agree this is not really for qt.
1831 2014-02-13 09:30:38 <wumpus> I also personally hate software that tries to second-guess me
1832 2014-02-13 09:31:27 <Cocodude> I'll stick with my hacky script to make sure the input pool size is always above 12 for now (a number that vaguely suits me)
1833 2014-02-13 09:32:04 <gmaxwell> Yea, Ideally software would be correct. And if it can't be correct it should be determinstic, so its easy to mentally model and work around its shorcomings.  Software that tries to be too smart, ends up still being dumb, but the smartness makes it too hard to mentally model and it seems malevolent.
1834 2014-02-13 09:32:35 <gmaxwell> doubly bad in software handling money. :)
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1836 2014-02-13 09:32:38 <wumpus> but an option to 'cut your change' could be useful 
1837 2014-02-13 09:32:45 <Cocodude> So to override the default
1838 2014-02-13 09:33:21 <wumpus> gmaxwell: exactly!
1839 2014-02-13 09:33:21 <xiando> gmaxwell: interesting that you're saying the "solution" is to not use bitcoin the payment network. please think a about that a bit.
1840 2014-02-13 09:33:41 <Cocodude> -usagetype=high, or possible -targetpoolcount=30 and -targetpoolvalue=1 (30 inputs averaging about 1 BTC) is an option.
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1842 2014-02-13 09:34:12 <Cocodude> Really though, these are heavyweight bodges when we really want to trust our own change outputs a little more if possible
1843 2014-02-13 09:34:21 <gmaxwell> xiando: for coffee? Why not. It's a perfectly reasonable answer.  Fundimentally raw bitcoin can not give you some properties you'd prefer in that context— e.g. instant irreversability or offline operations.
1844 2014-02-13 09:34:57 <gmaxwell> xiando: (or very low fees as you noted!)
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1846 2014-02-13 09:35:14 <gmaxwell> xiando: but there are ways to get those things, with some tradeoffs... tradeoffs which are totally compatible with doing large volumes of low value transactions.
1847 2014-02-13 09:35:14 <waxwing> xiando, i tend to think of bitcoin more as a replacement for RTGS (real time gross settlement) than paper notes. but this is a teeny weeny bit off topic, no?
1848 2014-02-13 09:35:35 alex_fun has joined
1849 2014-02-13 09:35:41 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I don't have examples of this in financial software, but the number of times that 'intelligent' printer software trying to second-guess intentions and mess up careful computations to get something exactly right... at least old machines simply did what you set them to, if you screw up it's your fault, but skill gets it right over time... now it's correction, overcorrection, over-over-correction...
1850 2014-02-13 09:36:11 <alex_fun>  xiando: it can be helpful to seperate bitcoin the currency and bitcoin the payment network. It's perfectly possible to transact in bitcoin value without making one bitcoin transaction per transaction.  There are many ways with a host of different security tradeoffs, all sutiable for coffee.. some offering instant confirmation, which is handy in that case.  How its possible?
1851 2014-02-13 09:36:18 <waxwing> Cocodude, bodges, exactly.
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1853 2014-02-13 09:36:37 <xiando> waxwing: yes, it's not #bitcoin, sorry, just blurred out.
1854 2014-02-13 09:36:42 <Datavetaren> Q: OP_CHECKSIG & malleability: If i understand this correctly, there's a separate ECDSA signature (per input), does that mean you can split a transaction with multiple inputs into several transactions and broadcast them?
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1856 2014-02-13 09:37:04 <waxwing> gmaxwell, but isn't it already the case that the qt software is being 'intelligent' in handling change, i'm not sure its current operation is that different from just adding a "change cutting" option
1857 2014-02-13 09:37:27 <alex_fun> also what is this bug MTgox seems to be inventing? all exchanges work fine
1858 2014-02-13 09:37:31 <alex_fun> it seems they simply dont wish to pay
1859 2014-02-13 09:37:36 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: No, you cannot, unless it was intentionally constructed that way. (e.g. SIGHASH_SINGLE|ANYONE_CAN_PAY)
1860 2014-02-13 09:37:46 <Cocodude> waxwing: It's being intelligent but in an obvious way (e.g. you have a 1 BTC input, you want to send 1 BTC, let's use that and not do a split/recombine)
1861 2014-02-13 09:38:15 <alex_fun> Cocodude: by default in person sends x amount from win wallet it send all in 1 go right?
1862 2014-02-13 09:38:20 <Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: Ok, thanks.
1863 2014-02-13 09:38:34 <gmaxwell> waxwing: I think it may be fine, handled cautiously. Ideally in a way that is smart enough to be helpful but not so complicated that its surprising.
1864 2014-02-13 09:38:44 <Cocodude> alex_fun: Yes, it all gets sent in one go. We're talking about how it chooses which inputs to use
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1866 2014-02-13 09:39:10 <alex_fun> Cocodude: well it can only use inputs it can access right?
1867 2014-02-13 09:39:11 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: the signatures in the default SIGHASH_ALL cover everything except the signatures.
1868 2014-02-13 09:39:24 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: which is why things like coinjoin are possible.
1869 2014-02-13 09:39:24 <Cocodude> alex_fun: That goes without saying
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1871 2014-02-13 09:40:10 <alex_fun> Cocodude: so say there are inputs worth 100 BTC and it sends 1 btc, seems easy , what can be the issue?
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1876 2014-02-13 09:41:19 <wumpus> I suppose there can even be a privacy gain in multiple change outputs, if well-chosen
1877 2014-02-13 09:41:21 <Datavetaren> @gaxmwell: I see. So all the txin/txout refs are in SIGHASH_ALL. Good.
1878 2014-02-13 09:41:26 <Cocodude> alex_fun: Maintaining a suitable sized pool of inputs that have had at least one confirmation. This more affects wallets used frequently.
1879 2014-02-13 09:42:34 <alex_fun> cool
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1881 2014-02-13 09:42:58 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: right, you could choose to make them otherwise, and if you use exclusively SIGHASH_SINGLE|ANYONE_CAN_PAY then the transaction could be split, exactly as you suggested.
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1884 2014-02-13 09:44:38 <epscy> Cocodude: what is the consensus about how to deal with that problem?
1885 2014-02-13 09:44:45 <Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: But it would be good to canonicalize the scriptSig then? Perhaps prioritize those with the smallest possible byteseq having same meaning? (Reading https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691 but there are "hacks" (3)-(5) here to canonicalize)
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1887 2014-02-13 09:45:32 <Cocodude> epscy: Not sure. It sounds like it'd only work with multiple change outputs as gmaxwell suggested (we don't want to add a secondary transaction really)
1888 2014-02-13 09:45:40 <Cocodude> epscy: But it's a bodge at the end of the day
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1890 2014-02-13 09:45:55 <Cocodude> epscy: So maybe running a hacky script outside bitcoind is actually the right answer for now
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1892 2014-02-13 09:46:30 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: there is no need to "priortize", we can just outright forbid non-canonical encodings.
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1894 2014-02-13 09:46:42 <gmaxwell> And then there is no race-risk where priority would fail.
1895 2014-02-13 09:46:57 <gmaxwell> it would just be immutable unless you chose to use features which were inherently mutable.
1896 2014-02-13 09:47:17 <epscy> Cocodude: i see, thanks
1897 2014-02-13 09:47:45 <Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: I understand that an equivalence check would be hard for scriptSig, but I was imagining that if two bitcoin tx had the same txin/txout but the scriptSig in one of them was "smaller" (lexicographically speaking), then the node would relay the smallest one. So the original broadcaster would then only have to prove that he indeed has the "smallest" scriptSig (not sure how easy that
1898 2014-02-13 09:47:45 <Datavetaren> is)
1899 2014-02-13 09:48:09 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: you can never prove that you don't know something. :)
1900 2014-02-13 09:48:23 <Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: :) I guess I have to prove it :)
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1902 2014-02-13 09:48:49 <Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: But you see where I'm trying to go with this?
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1905 2014-02-13 09:49:12 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: on that list fixes for 2,3,4 are already deployed, 5 is checked in but not released, 7,8 are the senders choice, and so you can just choose to not be in that situation.
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1907 2014-02-13 09:49:24 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: I see what you're saying but I believe it is not generally helpful.
1908 2014-02-13 09:49:35 <gmaxwell> You're assuming a datamodel that doesn't apply to bitcoin.
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1912 2014-02-13 09:50:32 <gmaxwell> and would create nasty attacks if you tried to apply it as a blockchain rule. E.g. tx get mined and is burried in several blocks and then I present a "lower sorting" transaction. Now what?
1913 2014-02-13 09:50:39 <Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: Fantastic on your progress!
1914 2014-02-13 09:51:09 <gmaxwell> I mean, 2,3,4 were done a year ago basically. The implementation for 5 was in september.
1915 2014-02-13 09:51:10 <Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: I'm in learning mode, so all my "proposals" are really questions.
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1917 2014-02-13 09:51:41 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: basically you cannot be confident that anyone has the same data as you until it is deeply burried in the blockchain.
1918 2014-02-13 09:52:00 <gmaxwell> The purpose of the blockchain is to bring nodes to a consensus about the ordering and identity of transactions in the past.
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1920 2014-02-13 09:52:32 <Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: What about (1)?
1921 2014-02-13 09:52:56 <gmaxwell> Eventually we need to deny altered transactions from entering into the blockchain, so that miners cannot create mutations to attack people. So any tool we use long term must be sutable as a blockchain validty rule, and so it can't assume there is consistent data between nodes.
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1923 2014-02-13 09:53:34 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: requires changing signing behavior before the mutation can be blocked, the change is in bitcoin git for some months now.
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1925 2014-02-13 09:54:19 <venzen> so mutated transactions are confirmed AND blocked at present?
1926 2014-02-13 09:54:28 <gmaxwell> but it may take a long time to deploy since all signers must change and some may be in firmware and offline devices which are hard to convince people to change. Sipa proposes perhaps we only restrict some tx versions, in which case, we can use a faster timeline.
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1929 2014-02-13 09:55:25 <gmaxwell> venzen: some forms of mutation are blocked from being relayed or mined by miners with unmodified software, not all— yet.
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1931 2014-02-13 09:55:44 <venzen> gmaxwell: thanks
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1934 2014-02-13 09:56:01 <Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: Ok, can you briefly say what the new signing process is? What is being done differently?
1935 2014-02-13 09:56:45 <gmaxwell> It took a long time to deploy the rule for (2) because we had to track down many implementations which were incorrect, producing invalid der encodings and convince them to update.
1936 2014-02-13 09:57:03 <Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: Re "lower sorting": I was imagining this only for unconfirmed transactions in the pool. But maybe that's not good enough.
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1938 2014-02-13 09:57:27 <gmaxwell> we ultimately couldn't find all of them. One that we didn't find— for example— was MTGOX, who only recently fixed their der encoding, even though the network had been blocking the transactions for most of a year.
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1940 2014-02-13 09:58:18 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: it isn't because then people go around depending on it and a miner could then mutate and cause whatever badness can be caused. Also, if you start relaying multiple alternatives it makes for a nice DOS attack.
1941 2014-02-13 09:58:18 <Datavetaren> @gaxmwell: Yes, I know. MTGOX discovered it the hard way once the nodes upgraded to 0.8+
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1944 2014-02-13 09:59:08 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: no they didn't, they seemed to continue to ignore it. They were also spending immature coinbases, which has always been invalid. Their automatic process of reissuing transactions apparently kept the pain to an acceptable level.
1945 2014-02-13 09:59:22 <Cocodude> Ouch!
1946 2014-02-13 09:59:45 <Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: Interesting why nobody discovered the exploit sooner then.
1947 2014-02-13 10:00:26 <shesek> gmaxwell, I'm wondering... did anyone ever confirm bitcoinjs-lib's implementation was correct?
1948 2014-02-13 10:00:47 <gmaxwell> shesek: it wasn't IIRC I think it produced negative values. But it was fixed, IIRC.
1949 2014-02-13 10:00:49 <AWeSomeAo> But, if MtGox had used bitcoind, they would not have had those problems?
1950 2014-02-13 10:01:13 <gmaxwell> AWeSomeAo: They would not have.
1951 2014-02-13 10:01:22 <shesek> they'd probably have other problems, though
1952 2014-02-13 10:01:22 <Datavetaren> AWeSomeAo: It's hard to use bitcoind for a million accounts though.
1953 2014-02-13 10:01:29 <shesek> I'm not sure if it could scale to what they're doing
1954 2014-02-13 10:01:47 <gmaxwell> yes, indeed, I wouldn't say they should have been using bitcoind.
1955 2014-02-13 10:02:04 <gmaxwell> shesek: well there certantly are people doing higher transaction volumes with it. But yea.
1956 2014-02-13 10:02:15 <gmaxwell> it has its own limitations.
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1958 2014-02-13 10:03:04 <gmaxwell> shesek: if you want to look at the source history if it was fixed it probably would have been sep to dec 2012.
1959 2014-02-13 10:03:33 <gmaxwell> shesek: see posts like: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=106461.msg1168678#msg1168678
1960 2014-02-13 10:03:48 <shesek> it was still the original version, right?
1961 2014-02-13 10:03:52 <shesek> not one of the newer forks?
1962 2014-02-13 10:04:00 <shesek> and yeah, I was just trying to search for it... thanks
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1966 2014-02-13 10:06:09 <Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: Thanks for your time. Back to work here.
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1991 2014-02-13 10:20:18 <ItsDom> I'm trying to wrap my head around non-standard transactions in the qt client. They're not forwarded by the standard client, and if there was a non standard transaction that was somehow spendable by a private key in your wallet, it wouldn't show up as available balance either - is that correct?
1992 2014-02-13 10:20:57 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: it would, once it was in the blockchain.
1993 2014-02-13 10:21:24 <gmaxwell> basically non-standardness only applies to loose transactions, if they do make it into the blockchain, then there they are.
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1999 2014-02-13 10:24:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;cjs
2000 2014-02-13 10:24:25 <gribble> Coinjoin Status: There is no currently open session. Visit https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/ or http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ to start one.
2001 2014-02-13 10:24:49 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: okay thanks. So is the IsMine stuff at the end of script.cpp how it checks to see if a transaction "credits" the user?
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2003 2014-02-13 10:25:12 <abrkn> does coinjoin actually work?
2004 2014-02-13 10:25:22 <gmaxwell> abrkn: sure.
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2006 2014-02-13 10:25:36 <abrkn> gmaxwell: nice, i'll try it later
2007 2014-02-13 10:26:35 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: yes.
2008 2014-02-13 10:26:56 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: okay. But in there, there's no logic to explain how it knows if a non standard transaction credits the user?
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2011 2014-02-13 10:28:10 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: What are you expecting? It checks if any of its outputs are to script pubkeys that it has the keys for.
2012 2014-02-13 10:29:03 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: non-standardness can be a property of scriptpubkeys too, not just the whole transaction. But a non-standard scriptpubkey is never paying to us.
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2016 2014-02-13 10:29:42 <gmaxwell> (because we don't issue 'addresses' corresponding to any non-standard scriptpubkeys)
2017 2014-02-13 10:29:49 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: Sorry I should have made myself clear about that.
2018 2014-02-13 10:29:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ItsDom: If you don't recognize the sPK as being yours, it isn't
2019 2014-02-13 10:30:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah, what gmaxwell said
2020 2014-02-13 10:30:19 <airbreather> michagogo|cloud, I like that explanation
2021 2014-02-13 10:30:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Slow/intermittent connexion, sorry)
2022 2014-02-13 10:30:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Huh?
2023 2014-02-13 10:30:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Connection*
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2025 2014-02-13 10:30:32 <ItsDom> But what I'm getting at is that if it's not a standard recognised transaction type, then there's no logic in the code yet to be able to identify if the non standard transaction credits the user
2026 2014-02-13 10:30:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is connexion a word? Why did my phone auto-correct it?
2027 2014-02-13 10:30:55 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: the definition of "yours" is basically "you issued it"   ... I mean I could cryptographically hash your drivers license number and use that as a private key, in theory you could redeem it.. I wouldn't expect your wallet to just find it. :P
2028 2014-02-13 10:30:56 <Grouver> When the expire time of a payment request has expired you can't load it up into your bitcoin client obviously. it will say: 'Payment request expired'. But why do you can send an expired payment request? Shouldnt it just say, 'This payment request has expired,  are you sure you want to send it?'
2029 2014-02-13 10:31:25 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: I think you're confusing non-standard transactions with unusual pubkey scripts.
2030 2014-02-13 10:31:36 kyle_torpey has joined
2031 2014-02-13 10:31:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Grouver: are you asking "why not allow you to pay it anyway"?
2032 2014-02-13 10:31:45 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: a transaction is usually non-standard for reasons entirely unrelated to the scriptpubkeys.
2033 2014-02-13 10:31:57 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: and all of those reasons are irrelevant there.
2034 2014-02-13 10:32:03 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, seems like your phone thinks you are british
2035 2014-02-13 10:32:08 <shesek> Connexion is an alternative British English spelling of the word connection[1]
2036 2014-02-13 10:32:11 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: you're right, I am confusing the 2. by standard, you mean defined as isStandard in main.cpp?
2037 2014-02-13 10:32:15 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: the only transactions you should expect a wallet to reconize are ones paid to addresses the wallet issued.
2038 2014-02-13 10:32:31 <ItsDom> so standard tx must have scriptsigs of less than 500bytes etc.
2039 2014-02-13 10:32:44 torokun has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2040 2014-02-13 10:32:54 <Grouver> michagogo|cloud,  Thats how it is now. I should at least give the user an warning that the payment request has expired.
2041 2014-02-13 10:32:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: heh
2042 2014-02-13 10:32:55 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: right. Thats normally what we're talking about when we say non-standard. And thats all totally irrelevant for IsMine.
2043 2014-02-13 10:33:08 drayah has joined
2044 2014-02-13 10:33:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's funny because when I talk, people sometimes tell me I have a British accent
2045 2014-02-13 10:33:19 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: okay. IsMine just checks if the scripts themselves grant money to spend to a private key in my wallet - right?
2046 2014-02-13 10:33:20 <Grouver> Cause now users can load a payment request in time and then send the request to late.
2047 2014-02-13 10:33:24 herra has joined
2048 2014-02-13 10:33:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Which there is absolutely no reason for
2049 2014-02-13 10:33:47 <Grouver> send the payment to late *
2050 2014-02-13 10:33:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ItsDom: it's yours if it's to a scriptPubKey that you issued
2051 2014-02-13 10:33:59 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2052 2014-02-13 10:34:10 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: no, it checks that the script is one of the forms that it would have issued, and then checks the for the keys to see if it could have issued that particular one.
2053 2014-02-13 10:34:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: were you affected by the CC outage this morning?
2054 2014-02-13 10:34:28 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, better than an Israeli accent... I hate that :(
2055 2014-02-13 10:34:32 <shesek> CC outage?
2056 2014-02-13 10:34:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah
2057 2014-02-13 10:34:39 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: yes, that's what I was getting at. so if it's an unusual script, it there's no code in the switch statement to do it.
2058 2014-02-13 10:34:44 maz0 has joined
2059 2014-02-13 10:34:50 <shesek> as in credit card? or something else?
2060 2014-02-13 10:34:53 MolokoBot has left ()
2061 2014-02-13 10:34:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|שב״א apparently listed the dollar exchange rate at 0
2062 2014-02-13 10:35:08 MolokoDesk has joined
2063 2014-02-13 10:35:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|In it's daily data update files
2064 2014-02-13 10:35:16 viajero has joined
2065 2014-02-13 10:35:29 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: Correct, and doing so is actually completely intractable in the limit, and wouldn't be a good practice in any case.
2066 2014-02-13 10:35:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Retailix didn't check that, and pushed it out to all it's users
2067 2014-02-13 10:35:59 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: okay, thanks for confirming that. I shall work on my understanding of the correct terms in future, sorry to make that longer winded than it needed to be.
2068 2014-02-13 10:36:00 attilah has quit (Quit: Bye)
2069 2014-02-13 10:36:12 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: e.g. someone writes a transaction that pays to X or Y and you have key Y in your wallet and overly clever matching realizes it can redeem it and adds it to your balance.
2070 2014-02-13 10:36:23 attilah has joined
2071 2014-02-13 10:36:30 drayah_ has joined
2072 2014-02-13 10:36:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hundreds or thousands of merchants, including entire gas station chains (e.g. Paz) and supermarket chains (e.g. Rami Levy and Mega) all got the broken data, which screwed up the systems
2073 2014-02-13 10:36:48 Jankxed has joined
2074 2014-02-13 10:36:49 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: and then you think you are paid and you give them the goat you're selling them.  and WHAM they claw back the funds,  and now you have no funds and no goat.
2075 2014-02-13 10:36:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Making it impossible to process credit cards
2076 2014-02-13 10:36:59 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: that's exactly what I was thinking about.
2077 2014-02-13 10:37:03 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: so by design we only look for things we would have issued.
2078 2014-02-13 10:37:03 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, lol, how something like that happens?
2079 2014-02-13 10:37:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: human error, apparently
2080 2014-02-13 10:37:15 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: so that's why it's basically just restricted to the usual scripts
2081 2014-02-13 10:37:17 <shesek> and no, I was home all day, didn't use a cc today
2082 2014-02-13 10:37:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Combined with what I would assume is division by zero
2083 2014-02-13 10:37:49 mattco1 has joined
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2085 2014-02-13 10:37:59 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: but the implication of that is that using the scripting language in any way other than the usual ways is pointless unless you're certain the other person is using a client that specifically recognises that combination of scripts.
2086 2014-02-13 10:38:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ItsDom: hmm?
2087 2014-02-13 10:38:21 drayah__ has joined
2088 2014-02-13 10:38:27 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: it's also about the cognative model of transactions. We think the correct way to reason about scriptpubkeys is that they always should be provided by the recipent(s).   "Of course I payed you, it was in the basement, behind the filing cabnet, beneight the sign that said beware the leopard!"
2089 2014-02-13 10:38:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|A scriptPubKey is enervated by the receiver
2090 2014-02-13 10:38:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Generated*
2091 2014-02-13 10:38:55 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: of course it is, actually figuring out what pays you is an NP problem, and one which is easily hard on average.
2092 2014-02-13 10:39:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|They can be set up to detect any scripts they like
2093 2014-02-13 10:39:19 <area> Just want to mention the peanut gallery's appreciation of that reference, gmaxwell ;-)
2094 2014-02-13 10:39:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And once again, gmaxwell beats me
2095 2014-02-13 10:39:30 <Grouver> jgarzik, You know why you can send an expired payment request but cant load it up when it has expired? It should be wonderfull if the user is prevented from sending an expired payment request or at least warned about it.
2096 2014-02-13 10:39:42 <ItsDom> ha, okay, thanks.
2097 2014-02-13 10:39:51 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2098 2014-02-13 10:39:55 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2099 2014-02-13 10:40:01 <ItsDom> I know the client doesn't forward non-standard transactions, but does it forward transactions with unrecognized scripts?
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2102 2014-02-13 10:40:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ItsDom: one of the IsStandard checks is whether the sPK is one of a few templates
2103 2014-02-13 10:41:10 drayah has joined
2104 2014-02-13 10:41:15 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: well, it's a bit more flexible than what we can IsMine.
2105 2014-02-13 10:41:17 <ItsDom> michagogo|cloud: wait a minute, so isStandard does care about the script?
2106 2014-02-13 10:41:23 <gmaxwell> Plus P2SH could be anything.
2107 2014-02-13 10:41:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right
2108 2014-02-13 10:41:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ItsDom: yes
2109 2014-02-13 10:41:40 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: I did say this above!
2110 2014-02-13 10:41:57 drayah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2111 2014-02-13 10:41:59 <ItsDom> I thought isStandard was just concerned with length and certain things, not specific script types though.
2112 2014-02-13 10:42:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Pay to pubkey, pubkey hash, script hash, multisig, op_return+small data
2113 2014-02-13 10:42:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's all I can remember off the top of my head
2114 2014-02-13 10:42:28 <ItsDom> ] <gmaxwell> ItsDom: a transaction is usually non-standard for reasons entirely unrelated to the scriptpubkeys.
2115 2014-02-13 10:42:29 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: it checks a lot of stuff.
2116 2014-02-13 10:42:35 <ItsDom> from that, I took that isStandard doesn't care about the script
2117 2014-02-13 10:42:48 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: oh sorry, no 'usually' there.
2118 2014-02-13 10:43:04 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: no worries, my fault:)
2119 2014-02-13 10:43:24 Thepok has joined
2120 2014-02-13 10:44:01 <Grouver> meh, i will ask him when he is here.
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2125 2014-02-13 10:45:05 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: if you've got some new scriptpubkey type you'd like standard, ... we haven't added any in a while it would be nice to do so.
2126 2014-02-13 10:45:09 <airbreather> ItsDom: if you can read code, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L393 has the rules for standard-or-not
2127 2014-02-13 10:45:35 <ItsDom> airbreather: was literally just looking at that - I can't find where it checks against the 4 types of usual scripts though.
2128 2014-02-13 10:46:07 <airbreather> ItsDom: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L454 --> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L1414 I think
2129 2014-02-13 10:46:11 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: I have no ideas yet, but basically that's what I'm looking at. I'm wanting to throw together a paper or something about the scripting language, specifically, how it's changed and whats possible and what's actually supported
2130 2014-02-13 10:46:25 drayah__ has joined
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2132 2014-02-13 10:47:15 <airbreather> ItsDom: and then https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L1197
2133 2014-02-13 10:47:28 <ItsDom> airbreather: yeah, found it, it's in Solver
2134 2014-02-13 10:47:37 coke0 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2135 2014-02-13 10:47:39 <ItsDom> airbreather: didn't look  at that previously, thanks.
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2141 2014-02-13 10:48:00 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: everythings actually supported. I mean you can pretty easily get non-standard transactions mined, there are ones mined basically every day.
2142 2014-02-13 10:48:14 coke0 has joined
2143 2014-02-13 10:48:40 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: if you'd like to expirement, the best way is— of course— with testnet.  The IsStandard doesn't apply there.
2144 2014-02-13 10:48:42 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: thats what I'm looking at too, I'm trying to compile a breakdown of the proportions of different types of scriptPubkeys.
2145 2014-02-13 10:48:53 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: cheers, I keep meaning to experiment.
2146 2014-02-13 10:49:09 stalled has joined
2147 2014-02-13 10:49:45 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: I've been looking and it seems the vast majority (as in about 58/60million) txouts are pay2pub-key-hash.
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2150 2014-02-13 10:50:44 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: but I also want to document some of the quirks and flaws in the implementation, like the oddness of handling OP_RESERVED (e.g. some of them do nothing, so why not disable them the same other commands have been disabled?)
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2154 2014-02-13 10:51:36 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: ...
2155 2014-02-13 10:51:44 <gmaxwell> Becuase there in place for forward compatiblity.
2156 2014-02-13 10:51:59 <gmaxwell> Perhaps you should understand it a bit better before documenting "flaws"
2157 2014-02-13 10:52:49 drayah__ has joined
2158 2014-02-13 10:52:56 <gmaxwell> (of which there are plenty, sure.. but kind of a boner example there. do nothing operators are, however, intended to be defined as something in the future in a soft-fork)
2159 2014-02-13 10:53:06 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: what's the benefit of forward compatibility. why have OP_RESERVE as a constant, and not have reserved constants for 0xb9 - 0xf9?
2160 2014-02-13 10:53:15 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2161 2014-02-13 10:53:22 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: it's not so much "flaws" as inconsistancies.
2162 2014-02-13 10:53:37 <ItsDom> I also want to look into some other bit petertodd said the other days about some lacking testing.
2163 2014-02-13 10:54:03 <ItsDom> as well as looking through changes over time in the source. (obvsiously a fw of the commands weren't disabled originally but were after some security issues etc.)
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2166 2014-02-13 10:54:52 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: becuase they are different kind of forward compatiblity. e.g. when we considered OP_EVAL it would have used OP_NOP1.
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2168 2014-02-13 10:55:04 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: and things like OP_VER which renders an entire script invalid unless it occurs in a non-executing if branch??
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2170 2014-02-13 10:55:29 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: yes, because you would make a branch which was only executed on nodes enforcing the new rules.
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2173 2014-02-13 10:55:53 <gmaxwell> (which would treat that OP_VER as something non-fatal)
2174 2014-02-13 10:56:06 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: I understand that there's OP_NOP0 - 10 which go up 0xb9, but why stop there? why not name them RESERVED3....
2175 2014-02-13 10:56:20 Jankxed has joined
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2177 2014-02-13 10:56:34 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: Because they are NOPs they're defined to not change the stack.
2178 2014-02-13 10:56:42 piuk has joined
2179 2014-02-13 10:56:47 <gmaxwell> And in a soft fork they can't start changing the stack.
2180 2014-02-13 10:56:55 <gmaxwell> (or it will break the consensus)
2181 2014-02-13 10:57:01 drayah has joined
2182 2014-02-13 10:57:21 <ItsDom> so OP_VER is basically another forward compatibility thing too?
2183 2014-02-13 10:57:36 drayah__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2185 2014-02-13 10:57:45 <ItsDom> So NOP, RESERVED and OP_VER are forward compatibility?
2186 2014-02-13 10:57:51 <gmaxwell> Yes.
2187 2014-02-13 10:57:52 drayah_ has joined
2188 2014-02-13 10:58:05 <ItsDom> So what about 0xba - 0xfa?
2189 2014-02-13 10:58:33 <ItsDom> I understand there's a need for leeway, but why restrict the leeway by assigning OP_CODES in the first place?
2190 2014-02-13 10:58:51 <gmaxwell> ...
2191 2014-02-13 10:58:58 <ItsDom> why not have them all just like 0xba - 0xfa ?
2192 2014-02-13 10:59:04 <gmaxwell> You understand that script validity is enforced by the whole network right?
2193 2014-02-13 10:59:17 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: yes, everyone checks every script.
2194 2014-02-13 10:59:25 drayah__ has joined
2195 2014-02-13 11:00:07 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: I understand that's why people don't want to change the scripting language, because it's virtually impossible without a hard fork.
2196 2014-02-13 11:00:13 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: an opcode that isn't enumerated fails the script unconditionally, this is not very useful for forward compatiblity.
2197 2014-02-13 11:00:30 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: though we've done so successfully.
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2199 2014-02-13 11:00:54 maxplm has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2200 2014-02-13 11:00:55 <ItsDom> ItsDom: OP_RESERVED doesnt have any implementation in the big switch statement so fails unconditionally doesn't it?
2201 2014-02-13 11:01:13 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: only if its evaluated.
2202 2014-02-13 11:01:16 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: yeah, I'm not familiar on the specifics, but some other people mentioned it is doable, but very very hard to do safely
2203 2014-02-13 11:01:30 <ItsDom> ItsDom: and why wouldn't it be evaluated?
2204 2014-02-13 11:01:33 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2205 2014-02-13 11:01:35 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: *
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2207 2014-02-13 11:01:56 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: e.g. inside an unexecuted branch.
2208 2014-02-13 11:02:07 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: why is OP_RESERVED handled differently to OP_RESERVED1 & 2?
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2210 2014-02-13 11:02:36 <gmaxwell> Is it? that I don't remember of the top of my head.
2211 2014-02-13 11:02:37 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: really? I thought OP_RESERVE caused a fail regardless because it's got no implementation so will return default false
2212 2014-02-13 11:02:48 <ItsDom> gmaxwell:  I think so, let me double chec,
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2215 2014-02-13 11:03:16 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: fall through in the switch doesn't matter unless its in an executed branch, IIRC.
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2217 2014-02-13 11:03:43 <gmaxwell> because there is a execution check at the top
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2221 2014-02-13 11:04:50 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: my mistake, they are handled the same. But they're also handled the same as e.g. 0xab I think.
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2227 2014-02-13 11:06:33 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: 3am here, so perhaps we'll chat later when I'm not likely to give you wrong answers. :)
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2230 2014-02-13 11:07:14 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: no worries, I really appreciate your input, sorry if my tone comes across as critical, it's really not, I think Bitcoin is an amazing system and you've all done a cracking job of improving and building on it too!
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2233 2014-02-13 11:08:26 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: oh pfft, there are all kinds of weird things. I do just get frustrated when people have a very myopic look and they fail to list the actual flaws and instead list a bunch of intention features they didn't understand. So I hope you won't fall into that trap. :P
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2237 2014-02-13 11:09:14 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: no, i'm very wary of that. I've been researching Bitcoin for 3 years now, and only now am I getting confident enough to start questioning things hopefully without sounding like a totally imbecile.
2238 2014-02-13 11:09:34 <swulf--> ItsDom: I'm in a similar boat :P
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2240 2014-02-13 11:10:01 drayah___ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2241 2014-02-13 11:10:01 <ItsDom> swulf--: :) glad to know i'm not the only one. I hate feeling like I'm wasting peoples time by asking questions I could answer myself if I looked through the code.
2242 2014-02-13 11:10:09 drayah_ has joined
2243 2014-02-13 11:10:56 <gmaxwell> so long as you find some stuff that surprises me you aren't failing as far as I'm concerned. :P  people who supposidly did a lot of work and find nothing that surprises me, well every time I read a bunch of the code I can find something I forgot or never knew that surprises me.
2244 2014-02-13 11:11:26 <swulf--> for example, I just posted a suggestion on reddit about the normalized txid stuff, but I'm too nervous to actual propose it to the devs:P don't want to be seen as an idiot ;)
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2247 2014-02-13 11:12:27 <gmaxwell> swulf--: too late!
2248 2014-02-13 11:12:29 <gmaxwell> ...
2249 2014-02-13 11:12:33 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: Hopefully I can present some new stuff to you one day, and hopefully what I present will provide more value than I've taken by wasting your time answering my questions!
2250 2014-02-13 11:12:38 <gmaxwell> now that the pressure is off you can participate like normal?
2251 2014-02-13 11:12:45 <swulf--> is it? :P
2252 2014-02-13 11:12:49 <ItsDom> haha
2253 2014-02-13 11:12:57 <swulf--> sure... mind if I /msg it ?
2254 2014-02-13 11:13:00 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: If I minded the questions I just wouldn't answer, so no worries.
2255 2014-02-13 11:13:06 <gmaxwell> sure
2256 2014-02-13 11:13:08 <gmaxwell> go ahead
2257 2014-02-13 11:13:33 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: that's reassuring. I'm always pleasantly surprised by how easy it is to speak to a dev in here virtually 24/7
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2262 2014-02-13 11:15:48 <ItsDom> Is there a place along the lines of WannabaBitcoinersAnonymous where people who aren't so confident in their own abilities can make suggestions and inputs without having to worry about being chastised for being noobish.
2263 2014-02-13 11:16:02 <ItsDom> (I suppose the Web.)
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2265 2014-02-13 11:17:19 <BitCoroner> other than in the comments of sipa's pull request (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3656), has MagicalTux been in communication with the core devs that anyway is aware of? looks like he finally just started discussing it a few hours ago
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2273 2014-02-13 11:21:27 <fanquake> ;;blocks
2274 2014-02-13 11:21:27 <gribble> 285609
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2276 2014-02-13 11:23:46 <gmaxwell> ItsDom: well you should probably idle in #bitcoin-wizards which is sort of for rockety sciency stuff that is not nearterm, but also functions a bit of an OT louge for technically clueful  people.
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2279 2014-02-13 11:24:28 <ItsDom> gmaxwell: cool, I'll take a look around - thanks.
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2345 2014-02-13 12:03:28 <iwilcox> Justcoin mentioned: "Today, I've been running a tool created by Gavin Andresen to fix a small number of transactions in our wallet that were not confirming for a long time."
2346 2014-02-13 12:03:37 <iwilcox> Is that tool fit for general consumption?
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2348 2014-02-13 12:04:29 <freewil> and/or what tool would that be
2349 2014-02-13 12:04:36 <iwilcox> I've had a couple of people with stuck txs that try to spend unconfirmed change and -salvagewallet didn't help (gave them wallets with zero history/zero balance)
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2356 2014-02-13 12:06:22 <iwilcox> I just told them to wait, since I don't really want to direct them to do wallet exports/imports (would involve clients I don't use/understand/approve of, and is risky for less technical users).
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2363 2014-02-13 12:08:53 <freewil> what is the process for exporting/importing to fix a stuck unconfirmed tx
2364 2014-02-13 12:09:25 <freewil> is it just starting with a new wallet and importing the priv keys over from the old one?
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2368 2014-02-13 12:10:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|freewil: Are you looking to make the wallet forget an unconfirmed transaction?
2369 2014-02-13 12:11:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Download pywallet.py from https://github.com/jackjack-jj/pywallet
2370 2014-02-13 12:11:09 <lnovy> that would also lose you transaction that were spending unconfirmed change and the previous transaction was malleated and mined. The tool in question (a suppose) takes these transaction (or just the next one to the malleated one) and fix the input to match.
2371 2014-02-13 12:11:54 <freewil> well i have a tx i tried to send that gave me the double-spend warning
2372 2014-02-13 12:12:20 <freewil> so i assume it tried to spend unconfirmed change from a tx that got muted
2373 2014-02-13 12:12:51 <abrkn> "<iwilcox> Is that tool fit for general consumption?" -- i have absolutely no idea. thermoman has done more testing than i
2374 2014-02-13 12:12:54 <lnovy> not sure what the behavior is...
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2376 2014-02-13 12:13:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|freewil: From a transaction that you sent that got mutated?
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2379 2014-02-13 12:13:33 <freewil> michagogo|cloud:  correct
2380 2014-02-13 12:13:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you know the txid of the transaction that didn't confirm, download pywallet.py that I linked above
2381 2014-02-13 12:14:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Then, run it with the --web option
2382 2014-02-13 12:14:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Open a browser to localhost:8989
2383 2014-02-13 12:14:22 oPen_syLar has joined
2384 2014-02-13 12:14:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Go to the "DELETE" tab, change the wallet location if the default is wrong, and paste the txid in the Keys box
2385 2014-02-13 12:15:58 <lnovy> abrkn, thermoman: is the tool that you used public/available to use for others?
2386 2014-02-13 12:16:29 <freewil> michagogo|cloud:  ok - so after i do that, should the balance of that tx return so i can spend it?
2387 2014-02-13 12:16:33 <abrkn> lnovy: https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools/blob/master/fixwallet.py
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2389 2014-02-13 12:17:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|freewil: That transaction will be forgotten by the wallet
2390 2014-02-13 12:17:25 <freewil> ok - that is what i want
2391 2014-02-13 12:17:26 <freewil> thanks
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2393 2014-02-13 12:17:58 <lnovy> abrkn: thanks, and is it doing the input rewrite or this will just trim invalid transactions and we need to recreate them again?
2394 2014-02-13 12:17:59 <abrkn> lnovy: we stopped bitcoind, backed up wallet, ran "fixwallet.py --datadir=/btc --notxes", replaced wallet with walletNEW.dat (made by fixwallet.py), started bitcoind with -rescan
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2397 2014-02-13 12:18:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|abrkn: Erm, you can delete transactions from a wallet more easily than that
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2399 2014-02-13 12:19:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't know if that script is still good and usable, note that it hasn't been touched in years
2400 2014-02-13 12:19:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|pywallet can delete transactions, if that's what you're looking for
2401 2014-02-13 12:19:57 <iwilcox> Is pywallet up to date?  I feared it was just as old.
2402 2014-02-13 12:20:11 <lnovy> ha, it's trimming --notxes, so the pywallet solution is much more elegant and faster
2403 2014-02-13 12:20:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Last commit on pywallet was 23 bays ago
2404 2014-02-13 12:20:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|days*
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2407 2014-02-13 12:21:37 <abrkn> i'm just repeating what a dev said would be worth an attempt. i don't know what will or will not work in your situation
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2411 2014-02-13 12:24:10 <freewil> this looks like it does something similar to what michagogo|cloud suggested: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3659
2412 2014-02-13 12:24:12 <wumpus> will pywallet also re-mark the outputs as spendable if you remove a transaction? that would be great
2413 2014-02-13 12:24:49 <wumpus> the reason for suggesting the drastic --notxes fix and a rescan was to get the outputs administration in order, which simply deleting a record from the wallet will not
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2415 2014-02-13 12:25:55 <wumpus> yes, #3659 -zapwallettx does exactly the same as fixwallet.py --notxes followed by a rescan, except that it's built into bitcoind itself
2416 2014-02-13 12:25:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I know that in cases where I've accidentally sent a 0-fee transaction and wanted to double-spend with less change, deleting the transaction with pywallet allowed me to spend the inputs again
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2418 2014-02-13 12:27:00 <iwilcox> Doesn't sound like either pyfoo is the sort of thing I'd inflict on these less technical folks anyway; they'd be happy installing another client but probably not installing Python.  Thanks all, anyway; good to know the range of options.
2419 2014-02-13 12:27:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: If you can read Python well, https://github.com/jackjack-jj/pywallet/blob/master/pywallet.py#L2133
2420 2014-02-13 12:28:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...zap? Why not delete or remove or clear?
2421 2014-02-13 12:29:04 <iwilcox> Or forget or abandon? :)
2422 2014-02-13 12:29:07 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: hmm a quick glance seems to tell me that it just deletes the record from the database; updating vfSpent for the dependent transactions would be much more complex
2423 2014-02-13 12:29:13 <lnovy> :
2424 2014-02-13 12:29:15 <lnovy> :D
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2426 2014-02-13 12:29:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Hmm, so why did it work for me?
2427 2014-02-13 12:30:09 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: no clue! maybe it triggered a rescan somehow
2428 2014-02-13 12:30:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Don't think so
2429 2014-02-13 12:30:26 <wumpus> (no idea if a rescan recomputes vfSpent tho)
2430 2014-02-13 12:30:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Bitcoin opened at a normal speed, I think
2431 2014-02-13 12:30:42 <wumpus> well then you just got lucky
2432 2014-02-13 12:30:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And IIRC a rescan hangs the client as it starts
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2436 2014-02-13 12:40:23 <lnovy> vfSpent mindboggles...
2437 2014-02-13 12:40:44 <wumpus> lnovy: the plan is to get rid of it completely
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2439 2014-02-13 12:42:02 <wumpus> it's not robust at all to store spendability persistently
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2442 2014-02-13 12:46:08  has quit (Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2444 2014-02-13 12:46:27 <jaakkos> to kill input script malleability, why can't we sign the whole input script without signatures, then we're only left with ECDSA malleability?
2445 2014-02-13 12:46:58 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: the scriptsig is the signature.
2446 2014-02-13 12:47:30 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: in any case, we can kill it (for the transaction types that are not fundimentally malleable) without doing that.
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2449 2014-02-13 12:47:38 <Eliel> gmaxwell: I think jaakkos means replace the signatures with a placeholder that's always the same, then take a hash of that.
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2452 2014-02-13 12:48:14 <gmaxwell> Eliel: I have no clue how you extracted that from his comment.
2453 2014-02-13 12:48:18 <jaakkos> i was looking at https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691
2454 2014-02-13 12:48:35 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: yes, and many of the things there are already solved.
2455 2014-02-13 12:48:36 <jaakkos> and i understood that people could add stuff to input scripts while keeping the tx valid
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2466 2014-02-13 12:49:55 <gmaxwell> 2, 3, 4  are non-standard as of v0.8,  5 is made non-standard in GIT.  7 and 8 are the senders choice ("so don't do that!").
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2470 2014-02-13 12:50:22 <gmaxwell> Once all the non-senders choice things are non-standard, we could move to disallow them in blocks.
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2475 2014-02-13 12:50:44 <lifeofcray> could someone ask to unban me in #bitcoin?
2476 2014-02-13 12:50:45 <Datavetaren> gmaxwell: What about 1 and 6?
2477 2014-02-13 12:50:47 quijibo has joined
2478 2014-02-13 12:50:52 <lifeofcray> i asked about the price 1-2 months ago
2479 2014-02-13 12:50:52 gbg has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2480 2014-02-13 12:50:58 <lifeofcray> a bit overkill
2481 2014-02-13 12:51:22 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: 1 is made consistent in git.
2482 2014-02-13 12:51:22 gbg has joined
2483 2014-02-13 12:51:46 <gmaxwell> 6 is simple, similar to 5 to make non-standard, it just hasn't had code written yet.
2484 2014-02-13 12:51:56 <Datavetaren> gmaxwell: 1: Ok, but we need to disallow the negative, right?
2485 2014-02-13 12:52:09 <gmaxwell> 6 is also not applicable to ordinary spends.
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2487 2014-02-13 12:52:24 <Datavetaren> gmaxwell: 6, ok good... almost a non-issue then
2488 2014-02-13 12:53:01 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: before that can be done the signing behavior must change. The code to not allow the other type is written too, but it can't be deployed yet.
2489 2014-02-13 12:53:09 Cryo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2490 2014-02-13 12:53:21 <Datavetaren> gmaxwell: Ok, that's fine.
2491 2014-02-13 12:53:35 <Datavetaren> gmaxwell: i.e. these changes take time, I understand that.
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2493 2014-02-13 12:53:53 <gmaxwell> I previously thought it would take 1-2 years to deploy that, considering how long it took to get the fix to 2 deployable. But perhaps the recent attention will make it easier.
2494 2014-02-13 12:54:04 cagedwisdom has joined
2495 2014-02-13 12:54:34 <Datavetaren> gmaxwell: It's right to be careful in a $10 billion market. No rush pleae :)
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2497 2014-02-13 12:54:53 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: some people seem to be of the opinion that much rushing is required.
2498 2014-02-13 12:55:18 <Datavetaren> gmaxwell: Unfortunately, most people don't understand how complicated things are.
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2502 2014-02-13 12:58:59 <Datavetaren> gmaxwell: This is probably not the right time to ask :) but have you considered adding an instrunction OP_NOW for current time in UTC? Could that be used to implement conditional funds? Or is it a bad idea?
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2504 2014-02-13 13:00:35 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: it would instantly fork the network.
2505 2014-02-13 13:00:49 <gmaxwell> Time is not consistent.
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2507 2014-02-13 13:00:58 <Eliel> Datavetaren: Sounds like a hairy mess to figure out how to implement without breaking things.
2508 2014-02-13 13:01:51 <Datavetaren> gmaxwell: True about time consistency, but you could have quantize time into days (instead of milliseconds)
2509 2014-02-13 13:02:04 <warren> https://github.com/Lolcust/Tenebrix-QT/commit/775d9ec644c0ddc09e7e6eb2a051ceb27a653313
2510 2014-02-13 13:02:06 * warren runs
2511 2014-02-13 13:02:12 * warren failing to sleep
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2513 2014-02-13 13:02:19 <Eliel> Datavetaren: if it returned the sequence number of the latest block, it might be usable.
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2515 2014-02-13 13:02:40 <gmaxwell> Eliel: that doesn't survive reorgs.
2516 2014-02-13 13:03:08 <gmaxwell> evaluating height in script is a frequent 'oh that has yucky consequences' proposal.
2517 2014-02-13 13:03:15 <Datavetaren> +Eliel: Agreed, better to use block sequence number
2518 2014-02-13 13:03:58 <wumpus> I suppose a > operator on current block would work but not < or =
2519 2014-02-13 13:04:11 <Datavetaren> gmaxwell: Ok, sounds messy then.
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2521 2014-02-13 13:04:35 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yup > would be like locktime.
2522 2014-02-13 13:04:44 <wumpus> yes it would be exactly like locktime
2523 2014-02-13 13:04:46 <Datavetaren> gmaxwell: I was imagining a system where a merchant can send targeted rebate coupons which an expiration date.
2524 2014-02-13 13:05:03 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: it's easy enough to do that without any time in the script.
2525 2014-02-13 13:05:21 <andytoshi> wumpus: it's a bit unlike locktime in that the tx could be confirmed before the locktime is up
2526 2014-02-13 13:05:35 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: e.g. just send people private keys and if they don't redeem them, sweep them themselves.
2527 2014-02-13 13:05:35 <andytoshi> wumpus: also note that if you tried to implement just > naively, users could use OP_NOT to get <
2528 2014-02-13 13:05:39 <andytoshi> this is subtle :)
2529 2014-02-13 13:05:44 <lnovy> you can do that with multisig + locktime imho, merchant would scrape the coupons on expiration, no?
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2531 2014-02-13 13:05:57 <Datavetaren> gmaxwell: Yes, but that requires you to do extra transactions (to cancel them)
2532 2014-02-13 13:06:08 <Datavetaren> gmaxwell: (You = merchant)
2533 2014-02-13 13:06:25 <gmaxwell> Datavetaren: well anything needs an extra transaction eventually.
2534 2014-02-13 13:07:01 <wumpus> andytoshi: indeed, it's very subtle, there would still be plenty of ways to abuse it
2535 2014-02-13 13:07:25 <c--O-O> mtgox is blaming again, http://www.forbes.com/sites/leoking/2014/02/13/mt-gox-ceo-mark-karpeles-responds-to-widespread-bitcoin-criticism/
2536 2014-02-13 13:07:26 <wumpus> andytoshi: that makes a afraid of systems like ethereum, we can hardly get bitcoin right, so let's introduce even more complexity! 
2537 2014-02-13 13:07:52 <c--O-O> he is also saying that the devs are implementing a longer more complicated fix, rather than an easier fix.
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2539 2014-02-13 13:08:12 <Datavetaren> gmaxwell: I need to think about that, but you're probably right.
2540 2014-02-13 13:08:29 <lnovy> that article is full of lies and half-truths...
2541 2014-02-13 13:08:38 <wumpus> article discussion is #bitcoin
2542 2014-02-13 13:09:14 <andytoshi> wumpus: re ethereum, hopefully we will learn a lot from it, but i agree with your non-optimism
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2548 2014-02-13 13:13:52 <Datavetaren> gmaxwell: re  "e.g. just send people private keys and if they don't redeem them, sweep them themselves.": Well, I was imagining a multi-sig, so that the merchant + the customer private keys, so the merchant enforce that it can only by used at his/hers store. Then you can add a conditional so the merchant signature takes precedence to cancel it (by redeeming it back to himself).
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2550 2014-02-13 13:16:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Datavetaren: At that point, why give the customer any control?
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2552 2014-02-13 13:16:57 <Datavetaren> +michagogo|cloud: It's a rebate coupon.
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2554 2014-02-13 13:18:36 <theorbtwo> At that point, what's wrong with the normal way of doing it, completely local to the vendor?
2555 2014-02-13 13:18:59 <theorbtwo> "Enter code aoisgh at checkout, and we'll remove 5% from the price!"
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2557 2014-02-13 13:20:46 <shesek> damn it forbes, really? the second page is just a single paragraph (that last link)
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2559 2014-02-13 13:20:52 <Datavetaren> theorbtwo: Well, that code can leak. But I imagine in a future world where bitcoin is so common that everyone has it on its cell phone. It's very convinent when you pay to just use thouse coupons whenever they're avaialble.
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2562 2014-02-13 13:23:39 <theorbtwo> The point of cupons and rebate deals is that many people don't use them.
2563 2014-02-13 13:24:15 <Datavetaren> theorbtwo: That's also why the issuer can control how many to print (digitally signed coins as described above).
2564 2014-02-13 13:24:41 <c0rw1n> so that would just be tying up bitcoins for nothing? hm i can think of a few creative accounting tricks with that...
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2567 2014-02-13 13:27:23 <Datavetaren> c0rw1n: You don't need cupons to do accounting tricks... just buy any (relevant) asset before closing the year :)
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2570 2014-02-13 13:30:37 <lnovy> is there any ETA on next release?
2571 2014-02-13 13:30:58 <lnovy> or can you point me at some policy of that...
2572 2014-02-13 13:31:12 <epscy> i'm toying with the idea of writing an accounting layer for bitcoin services, does anyone have any thoughts of the requirements of something like this?
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2574 2014-02-13 13:32:12 <lnovy> just wait for payment protocols
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2576 2014-02-13 13:33:02 <lnovy> ow, sorry, that's not it
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2624 2014-02-13 14:10:52 <jgarzik> mornin'
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2632 2014-02-13 14:15:42 <Mallstromm> mornin'
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2658 2014-02-13 14:41:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|afternoon
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2674 2014-02-13 14:58:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: just reread the earlier conversations re: removing transactions
2675 2014-02-13 14:58:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Would it work if you used pywallet to delete both the unconfirmed, mutant transaction *and* its input(s)?
2676 2014-02-13 15:00:38 yubrew has joined
2677 2014-02-13 15:01:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Also, is a partial rescan possible?)
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2689 2014-02-13 15:07:13 <Subo1977> hi, when will a new Bitcoin-Qt version be released for the masses?
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2691 2014-02-13 15:09:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Subo1977: when it's ready
2692 2014-02-13 15:09:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There's already an RC
2693 2014-02-13 15:10:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you want, I have builds of the RC for Windows I could give you
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2695 2014-02-13 15:10:49 <Subo1977> michagogo|cloud: is it a .9er ?
2696 2014-02-13 15:11:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes
2697 2014-02-13 15:11:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|0.9.0rc1
2698 2014-02-13 15:11:22 <Michail1> is it worth downloading or best to simply wait?
2699 2014-02-13 15:11:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Actually, the build I have might be slightly more recent than 0.9.0rc1 -- I'm not positive
2700 2014-02-13 15:11:48 <Cocodude> That was 13 days ago? Presumably it doesn't feature any of the recent enhancements/tweaks/ideas that came about since the malleability issues?
2701 2014-02-13 15:12:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Nope
2702 2014-02-13 15:12:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So yes, it's not exactly what will be 0.9.0, but it's close
2703 2014-02-13 15:12:58 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: if you have a second to clarify something for me - we discussed malleability and my understanding was that others may add commands to scriptSig, in addition to modifying the ECDSA signature in scriptSig, is this correct?
2704 2014-02-13 15:13:24 <jaakkos> so i didn't quite understand 14:46:48 < gmaxwell> jaakkos: the scriptsig is the signature
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2706 2014-02-13 15:14:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jaakkos: a Bitcoin signature is a scriptSig
2707 2014-02-13 15:14:22 <jaakkos> i thought scriptSig includes sig and pubkey
2708 2014-02-13 15:14:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The Bitcoin signature happens to embed an ECDSA signature
2709 2014-02-13 15:15:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That is, the Bitcoin signature for a pay-to-pubkey-hash scriptPubKey
2710 2014-02-13 15:15:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Basically, Bitcoin can be thought of as a new cryptosystem
2711 2014-02-13 15:16:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That happens to embed ECDSA operations as an option
2712 2014-02-13 15:16:27 <jaakkos> i'm trying to understand other forms of malleability in addition to ECDSA signatures, and i've understood the scriptSig can be modified in other ways in addition to the ECDSA sig
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2715 2014-02-13 15:17:13 <jaakkos> is that correct?
2716 2014-02-13 15:17:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes
2717 2014-02-13 15:17:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Have you read sipa's gist?
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2721 2014-02-13 15:17:55 <justanotheruser1> How can OP_CHECKSIG work if it checks signature(hash(output, input, script)) and part of the input is signature(hash(output, input, script))
2722 2014-02-13 15:17:55 <jaakkos> i've also understood that the hash signed by ECDSA is computed without including anything from the input scripts
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2724 2014-02-13 15:18:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jaakkos: right
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2726 2014-02-13 15:18:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You obviously can't have a signature signing itself
2727 2014-02-13 15:18:41 <justanotheruser1> michagogo|cloud: yes, that is why I'm confused
2728 2014-02-13 15:18:51 <justanotheruser1> Isn't part of the inputs the signature though?
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2730 2014-02-13 15:18:57 <jaakkos> so my question was, why don't we include everything else from input scripts when computing the hash-to-be-signed, except the ECDSA sig itself?
2731 2014-02-13 15:18:59 <justanotheruser1> Or is the scriptsig separate
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2733 2014-02-13 15:19:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I think ,,(op_checksig) covers it
2734 2014-02-13 15:19:12 <gribble> Error: "op_checksig" is not a valid command.
2735 2014-02-13 15:19:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uh
2736 2014-02-13 15:19:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;bc,wiki op CHECKSIG
2737 2014-02-13 15:19:21 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIG | Feb 4, 2014 ... OP_CHECKSIG is script opcode used to verify that the signature for a tx input is valid. OP_CHECKSIG expects two values to be on the stack, ...
2738 2014-02-13 15:19:40 <justanotheruser1> thanks, I was just reading the brief description on ;;bc,wiki scripts
2739 2014-02-13 15:21:15 <jaakkos> michagogo|cloud: i've started reading sipa's gist, but i just want to understand what the problem is with what i'm suggesting
2740 2014-02-13 15:21:42 <jaakkos> because i feel like that would throw a huge bunch of problems out of the window.
2741 2014-02-13 15:21:53 <jaakkos> but there is probably something i don't understand.
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2744 2014-02-13 15:24:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Could you try wording it differently?
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2748 2014-02-13 15:26:42 <jaakkos> michagogo|cloud: now we don't hash anything from input script for ECDSA signing; why not hash everything from input script that is possible (ie. everything else but the ECDSA sig which we don't have yet)
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2750 2014-02-13 15:27:09 <jaakkos> so that way the script would not be malleable any more
2751 2014-02-13 15:27:13 <jaakkos> except for ECDSA malleability.
2752 2014-02-13 15:27:50 <jaakkos> so then other people could not add anything to the input script when you've signed it.
2753 2014-02-13 15:28:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So you're suggesting that the hash to be signed should include the pubkey and other scriptSig elements, with a placeholder for the actual signature?
2754 2014-02-13 15:28:15 <jaakkos> yes.
2755 2014-02-13 15:28:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, I can't personally see a problem there, but there may be one I'm missing
2756 2014-02-13 15:28:34 <gavinandresen> That is a hard-forking change, aint' gonna happen anytime soon
2757 2014-02-13 15:28:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Also, it's a change you can't make now)
2758 2014-02-13 15:29:18 <gavinandresen> Well, we could make it a soft-forking change if we created a new signature-checking opcode… but that ain't gonna happen anytime soon either.
2759 2014-02-13 15:30:11 <gavinandresen> And right this minute, discussing "we should do this in a year or two" changes will be ignored, because we're busy
2760 2014-02-13 15:30:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Grr, I don't like when my mobile connection is weak and I end up saying the same thing that someone else says, before I see them saying it
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2822 2014-02-13 15:58:27 <justanotheruser1> Is softspending allowed within the blockchain? If not, then how could miners spend anyone-can-pay tx? Or can they not until it is in the previous block?
2823 2014-02-13 15:58:35 <justanotheruser1> *anyone-can-spend
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2834 2014-02-13 16:03:16 <wumpus> softspending?
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2838 2014-02-13 16:05:22 <plaprade> justanotheruser1:  I'm not sure what anyone-can-spend transactions are. But if you have some available, I'd gladly spend them :D
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2840 2014-02-13 16:06:01 <justanotheruser1> wumpus: spending a tx that hasn't been confirmed
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2843 2014-02-13 16:06:15 <justanotheruser1> plaprade: You probably won't be able to spend them unless you own a pool
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2845 2014-02-13 16:06:37 <justanotheruser1> They tend to ignore someone spending an anyone can spend tx and spend it themselves
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2848 2014-02-13 16:07:57 <wumpus> right, it's not something you'd normally do with other people's transactions, but spending outputs of a tx that hasn't been confirmed is possible
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2851 2014-02-13 16:08:35 <justanotheruser1> wumpus: so within a block there is a set of tx where ones output is used in anothers input?
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2857 2014-02-13 16:12:44 <jgarzik> justanotheruser1, yes, anyone-can-spend transactions may exist.  yes, miners may spend them, just like anyone else.  presumably, a smart miner would build spending such TXs into their mining logic, to catch them immediately.  otherwise, a bot, run by anyone, could spend them.
2858 2014-02-13 16:13:10 <jgarzik> justanotheruser1, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Identity_protocol_v1 includes anyone-can-spend example, as a proof of publication
2859 2014-02-13 16:14:44 <jgarzik> Until miners catch on, someone running an anyone-can-spend bot might make some money.
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2862 2014-02-13 16:15:11 <jgarzik> Or if you are creating such an identity yourself, you can easily spend that fee back to yourself immediately (until miners catch on).
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2864 2014-02-13 16:15:40 <k9quaint> can you make an "anyone but one guy" TX?
2865 2014-02-13 16:15:50 <jgarzik> no
2866 2014-02-13 16:15:53 <k9quaint> drat
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2868 2014-02-13 16:16:06 <k9quaint> I was gonna make an Anyone but Gmaxwell faucet :)
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2877 2014-02-13 16:18:45 <justanotheruser1> jgarzik: yes, but can you softspend within a block? Or does a miner have to put the anyonecanspend in a block then hope they get the next block?
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2884 2014-02-13 16:29:58 <plaprade> I believe justanotheruser1 is asking if two dependant transactions can be included inside the same block. I think the answer is yes. It would surprise me otherwise.
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2895 2014-02-13 16:33:43 <lnovy> just for you guys to know, implementing ntxids at mtgox will still leave their implementation broken until they start tracking the number of confirmation of everycoin. as they are (probably) just trying to use oldest coins they will end up spending their unconfirmed changes and malleating the previous transaction will (besides stucking the coin again) render once issued "non-changeable" ntxids changeable (or needing to be reissued) again.
2896 2014-02-13 16:33:47 <jgarzik> justanotheruser1, I have no idea what a softspend is.  Yes, for nLockTime-locked transactions, a miner would put the spend into their block, and hope they find a block.  For transactions without a time lock, anyone may spend into the next block, so it becomes a competition across the network, to see who can mine and spend the same inputs first.
2897 2014-02-13 16:33:58 <jgarzik> 1,000 people will "double spend" the same input all at once
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2901 2014-02-13 16:35:32 <wumpus> lol are people now seriously worried about SHA256 collisions in the normalized transaction id thread? this gets crazier and crazier
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2903 2014-02-13 16:36:07 <justanotheruser1> jgarzik: softspend is spending an unconfirmed tx
2904 2014-02-13 16:36:21 <justanotheruser1> I know it's atleast non-standard. Not sure if it's invalid
2905 2014-02-13 16:36:50 <lnovy> wumpus: I was thinking about pointing at the colisions, but then I realised it's more probable that a dog will be killed by an asteroid in a desert... on mars...
2906 2014-02-13 16:37:28 <jgarzik> wumpus,  It is unlikely that the universe will be destroyed in the next femtosecond.  But it might happen!  :)
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2908 2014-02-13 16:38:07 <lnovy> universe destruction? I could not care less :D
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2910 2014-02-13 16:38:11 <justanotheruser1> It's more likely that I will flip heads 100000000000000000000000000 times in a row than a collision happening
2911 2014-02-13 16:38:21 <justanotheruser1> Significantly more likely
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2913 2014-02-13 16:38:45 <wumpus> jgarzik: yes it may happen! but if that was all humanity was afraid of and spent discussing that instead of worrying about real dangers all the time we'd probably have been eaten by tigers by now :)
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2915 2014-02-13 16:39:26 * lnovy clapping
2916 2014-02-13 16:39:47 <akakak> ntxid's are not validated so someone could create intentional collisions and dos an exchange or try to manipulate their account, right?
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2918 2014-02-13 16:40:12 <lnovy> right, or you can just you the energy and mine a block!
2919 2014-02-13 16:40:16 <jgarzik> We've evolved to the point where humanity has developed trade specialization:  we dedicate a certain portion of humanity to thinking about crazy shit -all day long-, leaving the rest of us to be productive.
2920 2014-02-13 16:40:22 <lnovy> use
2921 2014-02-13 16:41:26 <akakak> lnovy, if I mine a block I get a block reward.  If I can manipulate exchange accounts, I could get significantly more.
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2924 2014-02-13 16:41:54 <wumpus> akakak: in the same way that you can guess private keys to get people's wallet balances, you mean?
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2927 2014-02-13 16:42:49 <lnovy> akakak: no, ntxid is used on sender side, no recieving, so everything you could do as falsely confirm their outgoing transaction :)
2928 2014-02-13 16:43:12 <wumpus> inmymem: that, too
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2933 2014-02-13 16:44:49 <lnovy> anyway the whole ntxid idea is broken on so many levels, I hope it will not end up in the master in the end.
2934 2014-02-13 16:46:02 <wumpus> it's use is pretty limited, but it appears all the exchanges are using something like it so we may just as well standardize something
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2940 2014-02-13 16:48:08 <akakak> ...but so I could send transactions using the same ntxid to manipulate my exchange account. The exchange presumably needs to also validate the inputs/outputs & timestamp.
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2944 2014-02-13 16:48:25 <lnovy> wumpus: what is the benefit of that? it's only useful for sending party and is not used in bitcoind itself for anything, wouldn't it be better just to leave this free to implement?
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2946 2014-02-13 16:48:55 <wumpus> akakak: please link me to that paper about generating specific sha256 hashes, I have some uses for that
2947 2014-02-13 16:49:06 <lnovy> akakak: exchange doesn't use your ntxid for deposits, it is used only for withdrawals
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2949 2014-02-13 16:49:40 <lnovy> it actually cannot be used on recieving side for accounting
2950 2014-02-13 16:49:48 <akakak> Inovy, so?  I can generate false withdrawals on other people's accounts, right?
2951 2014-02-13 16:50:00 <lnovy> akakak: no
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2953 2014-02-13 16:50:50 <akakak> why not?
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2955 2014-02-13 16:51:02 <lnovy> akakak: ntxids cannot be reversed to a transaction to be matched in exchange's internal system, it's the other way around, first you need the transaction then you can have ntxid
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2958 2014-02-13 16:51:44 <wumpus> seriously if sha256 is that broken that you can generate transactions with a specific target ntxid we have much larger issues, for example because the same input is used for signing... so it'd basically allow faking signatures
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2964 2014-02-13 16:52:13 <akakak> I'm not suggesting sha256 is broken - obviously it isn't
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2968 2014-02-13 16:52:42 <wumpus> and if it gets broken there are much worse issues, the attack vector you're worrying about is not realistic
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2970 2014-02-13 16:52:57 <helo> most wallets will reject subsequent transactions with txids that conflict with one they have already seen, unless that subsequent txid is mined in a block.
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2972 2014-02-13 16:53:29 <akakak> I'm talking about the fact that the network doesn't validate the ntxid, so I can add any ntxid I want on future transactions and try to mess with an exchange's internal accounting
2973 2014-02-13 16:53:32 <helo> so you shouldn't ever see more than two txids, unless a reorg occurs
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2975 2014-02-13 16:53:52 <wumpus> you cannot ADD a ntxid to a transaction, it's COMPUTED from the transaction
2976 2014-02-13 16:54:00 <wumpus> did you look at the frigging code at all?
2977 2014-02-13 16:54:31 <helo> are transactions malleable into more than two forms?
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2979 2014-02-13 16:55:14 <wumpus> helo: yes; I wouldn't know exactly how many forms are possible, but quite a lot even if you consider just scriptsig and different types of pushdata
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2981 2014-02-13 16:55:26 <akakak> wumpus, the code is on the service side, so it is arbitrary.
2982 2014-02-13 16:55:44 <wumpus> akakak: randomly generated code?
2983 2014-02-13 16:56:06 <akakak> ?
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2985 2014-02-13 16:56:29 <wumpus> helo: if you include all the possible types of malleability I expect quite an combinatorial explosion
2986 2014-02-13 16:56:32 <akakak> I'm talking about a malicious wallet. Or even a manually constructed transaction
2987 2014-02-13 16:56:44 <lnovy> why would they consider your faked transaction with ntxid valid if it's not in a block? and no miner would mine that...
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2989 2014-02-13 16:57:27 <akakak> Maybe it's not fake.  Maybe it's a real transaction that just intentially uses the same ntxid
2990 2014-02-13 16:57:47 <wumpus> helo: on the other hand your wallet can only see two at most: the original and the one that made it into a block (except in case of reorganizations)
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2992 2014-02-13 16:58:10 <lnovy> so they will just get falsibly the transaction as confirmed, so what?
2993 2014-02-13 16:58:12 <andytoshi> what is ntxid? txid+index?
2994 2014-02-13 16:58:21 <lnovy> one way or another, it will confirm
2995 2014-02-13 16:58:33 <andytoshi> akakak: you cannot create two transactions with the same txid
2996 2014-02-13 16:58:40 <wumpus> andytoshi: the 'sipahash', see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3656
2997 2014-02-13 16:59:03 <andytoshi> thx wumpus, i didn't know the new work
2998 2014-02-13 16:59:04 <andytoshi> word
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3000 2014-02-13 16:59:34 <helo> might be interesting if someone had cracked into an exchange, and was more interested in getting problematic transactions mined than stealing funds. (but people that don't care about bitcoin value acquisition can screw with bitcoin in any number of ways)
3001 2014-02-13 16:59:36 <wumpus> I also liked sipahash better but I don't think he likes his name attached :)
3002 2014-02-13 16:59:45 <helo> err "cracked into a mining pool"
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3004 2014-02-13 16:59:57 <lnovy> holy fms
3005 2014-02-13 17:00:03 <helo> SipaCare
3006 2014-02-13 17:00:08 <lnovy> this gave me cancer...
3007 2014-02-13 17:00:31 <akakak> Inovy, it will confirm.  ...and then tomorrow I just add the same ntxid to a totally different transaction.  Then the exchange idiotically just updates their balance again, seeing another confirmed transaction with that same ntxid.
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3009 2014-02-13 17:01:04 <jcorgan> akakak: you are not listening.  you don't just "add" an arbitrary ntxid to a transaction.
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3011 2014-02-13 17:01:17 <wumpus> akakak: for the last time, you cannot just 'attach a ntxid' to a transaction, it is computed from the transaction, if you change the transaction you get a different ntxid but not in a predictable way
3012 2014-02-13 17:01:55 <wumpus> akakak: I kindly suggest you get a clue
3013 2014-02-13 17:02:19 <akakak> If I compile my own wallet code, can't I modify it to set an arbitrary ntxid?
3014 2014-02-13 17:02:29 <lnovy> This is a not a serious proposal for inclusion into bitcoind. This is a simple implementation of a proposed standard to verify compatibility. // what a relief...
3015 2014-02-13 17:02:36 <akakak> please be patient guys - I'm trying to understand
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3017 2014-02-13 17:03:34 <wumpus> helo: someone that wants problematic transactions mined would probably hack into a pool
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3019 2014-02-13 17:04:12 <plaprade> ntxid is the result of a computation, not a label. Of course, if you write your own wallet, you can label the transactions in any way you want. But that will only live within your wallet. Other nodes will compute the ntxid on their own.
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3022 2014-02-13 17:05:06 <lnovy> even if they counted the same ntxid as you, that transaction would be either invalid or non-standard (unless it would be a valid transaction and therefore correct non-faked ntxid)
3023 2014-02-13 17:05:19 <wumpus> plaprade: exactly
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3025 2014-02-13 17:05:52 <akakak> plaprade, ah, I see.  So the ntxid isn't actually broadcast at all
3026 2014-02-13 17:06:24 <lnovy> there you go!
3027 2014-02-13 17:06:37 <plaprade> akakak:  No, the ntxid will not be broadcast. Nodes that need it will compute it on their end
3028 2014-02-13 17:07:27 <akakak> So there doesn't even really need to be consensus on how to build it.  It would just be useful for systems cross-referencing transactions
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3031 2014-02-13 17:08:11 <lnovy> no it won't be useful for that as it does not cover the whole range of possible transaction types, you can account with it on reciever side
3032 2014-02-13 17:08:22 <lnovy> it is only useful for sender
3033 2014-02-13 17:09:08 <lnovy> ...you cannot account with it...
3034 2014-02-13 17:09:55 <lnovy> if you want to account on reciever side, don't reuse addresses and use them as an id
3035 2014-02-13 17:10:13 <wumpus> lnovy: what kinds of transactions are excluded? are there actually any of those in use?
3036 2014-02-13 17:10:46 <wumpus> I would be really sad if it didn't support SIGHASH_UNICORN transactions
3037 2014-02-13 17:11:20 <lnovy> wumpus: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3656#issuecomment-34845855
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3039 2014-02-13 17:14:00 <wumpus> lnovy: you didn't answer either question
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3044 2014-02-13 17:16:10 <lnovy> wumpus: gmaxwell has given an example... I would say any other transaction type even the future types that doesn't fit the use case of this crap.
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3046 2014-02-13 17:16:42 <lnovy> generation transaction comes to mind :)
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3048 2014-02-13 17:18:16 <wumpus> lnovy: what he did was give an example in which you'd want a different kind of normalized transaction id, that there is no one-size-fits all for all purposes
3049 2014-02-13 17:18:17 <lnovy> coinjoin transactions would be given the same ntxid on reciever side and for accounting you need them to be different
3050 2014-02-13 17:19:08 <wumpus> lnovy: why would it not work for generation transactions?
3051 2014-02-13 17:19:09 <lnovy> wumpus: I agree that what mtgox was asking is not possible, I'm stating that ntxid is not usable as an accouting id on reciever side
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3054 2014-02-13 17:20:28 <lnovy> wumpus: if there are multiple outputs and both of these outputs ends up in your exchange but for different customers, then ntxid will not help you
3055 2014-02-13 17:21:01 <lnovy> it is only relevant and usable on sender side
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3059 2014-02-13 17:22:29 <lnovy> and there is no benefit of knowing this ntxid on the reciever side... you can check your balance without it and if you want to do accounting you just use different address for every transaction.
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3061 2014-02-13 17:22:48 <wumpus> lnovy: it would 'help' you in the same way the normal txid would
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3065 2014-02-13 17:24:07 <lnovy> yes, txid is enough here, but again, this is some property of transaction that is useful only on reciever side and I would have left how to create it on their decidion
3066 2014-02-13 17:24:46 <wumpus> it still can't hurt to define a standard
3067 2014-02-13 17:25:11 <lnovy> if there is no benefit than making it a standard just hurts
3068 2014-02-13 17:25:26 <wumpus> that's a circular argument
3069 2014-02-13 17:25:56 <lnovy> what are standard for?
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3074 2014-02-13 17:27:31 <lnovy> standards are here to make cooperation between different parties easier, I don't see the benefit in cooperation between parties here.
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3078 2014-02-13 17:28:22 <wumpus> it makes sure people use something remotely sane, instead of roll their own that makes even less sense...
3079 2014-02-13 17:29:10 <wumpus> seeing how many exchanges were using txids to uniquely identify transactions, an advisory standard on this could have avoided a lot of trouble
3080 2014-02-13 17:29:13 <lnovy> wumpus: you are "forcing" them to use something for their internal purporses, no benefit in cooperation...
3081 2014-02-13 17:29:46 <lnovy> that should not be called a standard but a best-practice
3082 2014-02-13 17:29:49 <wumpus> forcing even? wow
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3084 2014-02-13 17:30:13 <lnovy> i've quoted that, but you were the first to say "it makes sure that"
3085 2014-02-13 17:30:47 <viajero> Inovy: you are fighting against windmills. and why are u flooding this channel after several ppl explained u the issue on ##mtgox-chat?
3086 2014-02-13 17:31:54 <viajero> everybody gets it. just not you. so either live with it, or do more research
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3088 2014-02-13 17:32:06 <lnovy> viajero: I've told that, I don't think this should not be a standard
3089 2014-02-13 17:32:15 <lnovy> should be
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3092 2014-02-13 17:32:52 <viajero> yeah, i got that. a lot of ppl think it should. and most of them seem to have a better understanding of the matter than you
3093 2014-02-13 17:33:02 Ursium has joined
3094 2014-02-13 17:33:06 <lnovy> viajero: how do you measure that?
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3096 2014-02-13 17:33:56 <viajero> by the competence which speaks out of their comments and/or history
3097 2014-02-13 17:34:45 <lnovy> viajero: hit me, compare us two, you and me
3098 2014-02-13 17:35:06 Guest16644 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3099 2014-02-13 17:35:17 <viajero> anyway, good luck with your fight. need to go.
3100 2014-02-13 17:35:24 <lnovy> see ya
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3112 2014-02-13 17:41:08 <HaltingState> where is sipa
3113 2014-02-13 17:41:36 diegofv_ has joined
3114 2014-02-13 17:41:53 <HaltingState> is highest bit of 31st bit = =1, correct for enforcing signature mutability for the modulo/complement signatures
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3126 2014-02-13 17:45:45 <jcorgan> it seems there are several distinct "issues" that are getting confused by people coming into #bitcoin asking questions (original malleability property known for 3 years, problems at mtgox in their code, the DOS broadcast attack and its impact, reference client balance display, reference client coin control and unconfirmed change, perhaps others).  It would be useful to have something to point to help explain the relationship of all these.
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3129 2014-02-13 17:47:32 <jcorgan> a recurring question is something like "have the core devs fixed the bitcoin bug that prevents mtgox and the other exchanges from reopening?"
3130 2014-02-13 17:48:07 phrog has joined
3131 2014-02-13 17:49:08 <jcorgan> so much has happened in 48 hours that i myself don't have a clear picture of everything in play
3132 2014-02-13 17:50:18 <jcorgan> ideas for how to improve the communication situation?
3133 2014-02-13 17:50:40 <realazthat> what does "confirmations" field mean for a block that is not at the tip?
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3135 2014-02-13 17:51:55 <lianj> jcorgan: good point
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3146 2014-02-13 17:55:03 <jcorgan> based on the level of activity on github, the core devs are furiously working on actually solving things, but paradoxically, that feeds into the idea that there is something "broken" on the network that the core devs need to "fix"
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3149 2014-02-13 17:55:51 <anddam> hello
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3151 2014-02-13 17:56:05 <anddam> who's building the OSX dmg with binary Bitcoin-Qt?
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3153 2014-02-13 17:56:30 <anddam> also is latest stable reported to correctly build with clang?
3154 2014-02-13 17:56:37 <maaku> adam3us: gavinandresen
3155 2014-02-13 17:56:43 <anddam> that's me, I figure
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3157 2014-02-13 17:56:52 <maaku> er yea
3158 2014-02-13 17:56:52 <anddam> what timezone is Gavin in?
3159 2014-02-13 17:57:12 <maaku> EST I think, although I don't know he's currently there
3160 2014-02-13 17:57:17 <anddam> thanks
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3163 2014-02-13 17:58:12 <maaku> anddam: i have no problem building with clang... on <=10.8
3164 2014-02-13 17:58:30 <maaku> it's after I switched to 10.9 that builds aren't reliable
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3167 2014-02-13 17:59:25 <gwb3> hi all, what do ACK and NACK mean?
3168 2014-02-13 17:59:41 <maaku> jcorgan: it would be useful to have someone act as PR representative
3169 2014-02-13 17:59:53 <maaku> *some non-developer, cause we're all busy
3170 2014-02-13 18:00:04 <anddam> maaku: due to SDK change?
3171 2014-02-13 18:00:06 <maaku> gwb3: approve / not-approve
3172 2014-02-13 18:00:11 <jcorgan> i'd have a go at writing up something of a summary, but 1) I in no way speak for anyone but myself, and 2) I need some input and guidance from people involved, who are all really busy
3173 2014-02-13 18:00:20 <anddam> maaku: I jumped from 10.7 to 10.9, what's the minimum SDK target you have?
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3175 2014-02-13 18:00:57 <maaku> anddam: not sure why, due to a variety of errrors; i've stopped doing 10.9 builds
3176 2014-02-13 18:01:09 <lianj> jcorgan: agreed, its not about short term protocol change at all. i wonder what gox is waiting for, pr-3656 should be enough to test and go with it until longterm changes are made.
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3179 2014-02-13 18:01:37 <viajero> good idea: maaku	jcorgan: it would be useful to have someone act as PR representative
3180 2014-02-13 18:01:58 <gwb3> maaku: thanks
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3182 2014-02-13 18:02:15 <maaku> lianj: maybe they're waiting on some normative transaction ID too? they mentioned this in their press release
3183 2014-02-13 18:02:43 <jcorgan> well, i'd like to help in some way, but i rather suspect i'm not the kind of person you'd want as a "PR representative" :)
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3185 2014-02-13 18:02:52 <maaku> I'm working on a variant of sipa's normtxid branch with error correction codes
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3192 2014-02-13 18:05:24 <lianj> maaku: what benefits do error correction codes have for this case?
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3203 2014-02-13 18:11:16 <lianj> maaku: i don't see any. its an service internal id, why would you need error correction encoding? didn't we have that topic yesterday already?
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3212 2014-02-13 18:16:17 <anddam> is the redefine of insert at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/v0.8.6/src/serialize.h#L898 correct?
3213 2014-02-13 18:16:31 <anddam> in master one of the two has a MSVC define
3214 2014-02-13 18:16:42 <jcorgan> lianj: Of all the things that need communicating most clearly right now, I think your statement is the most useful--nothing that is happening on the network requires any short term changes in the bitcoin protocol or reference client; devs are working long term on improving malleability, and short term on some reference client issues related to balance display and coin selection.
3215 2014-02-13 18:17:53 <jcorgan> In addition, some trial implementations of ideas are being done to create a way to help merchants/exchanges implement better accounting.
3216 2014-02-13 18:18:08 <lianj> right, thats what the rpc call is
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3218 2014-02-13 18:18:41 <anddam> oh in 0.8.6 too, the first insert has just gone in master
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3220 2014-02-13 18:20:06 <jcorgan> does anyone have any suggestions on improving the wording of the two statements above?
3221 2014-02-13 18:22:17 <lianj> i think between the lines that statement was given a couple of times already, by various devs
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3223 2014-02-13 18:23:20 <maaku> lianj: a normative id is basically for customer service use only
3224 2014-02-13 18:23:45 <maaku> and, e.g., when giving over the phone you can't expect someone to give 64 digits without an error
3225 2014-02-13 18:24:10 <lianj> maaku: but thats not whats required for bitstamp and gox to go back online
3226 2014-02-13 18:24:24 <maaku> (I've worked front-line phone support before. Having no error detection is asking for trouble)
3227 2014-02-13 18:24:34 <lianj> the customer only needs to look at his address balance. a txid is not needed at all
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3230 2014-02-13 18:25:09 <lianj> the normtxid is just for internal use on the exchange account side, or clients internal wallet balance of unconfirmed coins
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3232 2014-02-13 18:25:23 <lianj> *accounting
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3236 2014-02-13 18:26:12 <maaku> lianj: no, transaction IDs are used by exchanges for identifying withdraw transactions
3237 2014-02-13 18:26:19 <maaku> *identifying to the customer
3238 2014-02-13 18:26:28 <maaku> mtgox explicitly called this out as a source of problems for them
3239 2014-02-13 18:26:29 <lianj> wrongly used then
3240 2014-02-13 18:27:01 <maaku> lianj: well, yes, imho they should be using a description of the transaction itself instead
3241 2014-02-13 18:27:12 <v_y> what's up with all of the single satoshi transfers?
3242 2014-02-13 18:27:26 <lianj> v_y: different topic, jackass spam
3243 2014-02-13 18:28:03 <maaku> but no amount of ivory tower finger wagging is going to help here. they use txids in customer support, and there are non-intrusive ways in which that process can be made better and safer
3244 2014-02-13 18:28:11 <roybadami> jcorgan: I think the statement that no short term changes in the reference client are needed isn't really true (and confusing, given the second part of the statement then goes on to describe the short term work being done on the reference client)
3245 2014-02-13 18:28:28 <v_y> lianj: are they successfully dosing the network, or being filtered?
3246 2014-02-13 18:28:39 <maaku> that's a pragmatically better approach than telling them to redesign their entirely customer service workflow, retrain all their workers, etc.
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3248 2014-02-13 18:28:45 <anddam> maaku: does the Bitcoin-Qt application bundle contain CLI executable too?
3249 2014-02-13 18:28:56 <maaku> anddam: I don't know
3250 2014-02-13 18:29:12 <anddam> maaku: I thought you were building on osx <10.9
3251 2014-02-13 18:29:19 <lianj> v_y: yes and no. but a couple (or lots) of miners have made sure to not mine them. mining below dust amount is non standard anyway
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3253 2014-02-13 18:29:30 <maaku> anddam: I don't know what gavin includes in his builds
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3256 2014-02-13 18:30:40 <lianj> maaku: if all you do is encode pr-3656 differently, please don't. if the only use case is that you can give that id over the phone than its sounds like a joke :D tcp/mail has good enough error correction already
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3258 2014-02-13 18:31:44 <anddam> maaku: btw I only see that little redefine, I just correctly built 0.8.6 on 10.9
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3260 2014-02-13 18:31:53 <anddam> committing the update to ports
3261 2014-02-13 18:34:56 <maaku> lianj: over the phone, typing from paper or 2nd device. it's a human-oriented number; why is being concerned about human errors a joke?
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3263 2014-02-13 18:35:44 <maaku> anddam: I don't do mac os x builds
3264 2014-02-13 18:36:00 <maaku> *anymore
3265 2014-02-13 18:36:10 <andytoshi> jcorgan: if you want to write up a pdf or something i'm happy to proofread it
3266 2014-02-13 18:36:35 <jcorgan> roybadami: then, to clarify, the solutions to the problems the exchanges are working to address do not *require* any short-term changes to the bitcoin protocol or reference software.  As a separate issue, the DOS underway has revealed some issues with the reference client related to balance display and coin selection; the devs are working short term to address those, but this is separate from the exchange issues (which lie in the exchange's own 
3267 2014-02-13 18:36:50 <andytoshi> as you say, there are four or five issues and it would be nice to point to something that disambiguates it
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3271 2014-02-13 18:37:36 <andytoshi> rather than having users saying stupid things, get called stupid and confused, and then start railing on the devs for being conspiratorial
3272 2014-02-13 18:37:39 <lianj> maaku: it is because there is no usecase/need to transfering a (n)txid over such channels. did you ever do that with normal txids previously. your originally said gox uses it to inform the user of the txid after submitting the withdraw form and via mail. those cases don't need error correcting encoding
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3274 2014-02-13 18:38:58 <maaku> lianj: it's not a need, it's a time-saving feature
3275 2014-02-13 18:39:08 <lianj> also keep in mind that this ntxid is only of short term use, meaning while the tx iself is in unconfirmed state. after it mined into a block the normal protocol txid is just fine
3276 2014-02-13 18:39:23 <roybadami> jcorgan: the exchanges using the reference client can be hit by problems spending unconfirmed change, no?
3277 2014-02-13 18:39:26 <maaku> in the mtgox case you read the ID over the phone. having error correction saves everyone's time
3278 2014-02-13 18:39:38 <maaku> this is about saving money for businesses, not a security feature
3279 2014-02-13 18:39:40 <lianj> how is it a time saving feature. printing the hex vs some other encoding in the mail is no timesaving at all
3280 2014-02-13 18:39:53 <jcorgan> roybadami: i'm not clear on that one
3281 2014-02-13 18:40:03 <lianj> maaku: where do they read the id over the phone?
3282 2014-02-13 18:40:58 <jcorgan> andytoshi: i think if we can work out an accurate, informative, unbiased statement here by iterating, it would be faster
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3286 2014-02-13 18:43:30 <andytoshi> jcorgan: nah, i think a useful statement would be too long. you can throw a .tex on github or something
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3291 2014-02-13 18:44:31 <lianj> maaku: you went from its needed, to its not useful but time safer to its a security feature. like yesterday i quit that discussion now. its not what gox really needs, and not want the protocol needs because its only useful for the unconfirmed state
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3294 2014-02-13 18:46:56 <anddam> is bitcoind supposed to go in */sbin on UNIX systems?
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3296 2014-02-13 18:47:32 <lnovy> more like /usr/bin i guess
3297 2014-02-13 18:47:33 <anddam> I had the idea that it was used as client as well
3298 2014-02-13 18:48:14 <lnovy> it's not a system tool in any way
3299 2014-02-13 18:48:15 <jcorgan> anytoshi: yeah, i see your point, but i think it is premature.  if we can iterate on a common understanding of the multiple, concurrent things that are happening here, at that point i can write up a summary and FAQ for review
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3302 2014-02-13 18:48:54 <jcorgan> i just don't feel like i have a sufficient grasp on all the details to do that yet
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3304 2014-02-13 18:49:39 <jcorgan> so we don't need to iterate a statement here, just make sure there is a consensus among the devs that what will go into such a statement is accurate and useful
3305 2014-02-13 18:49:54 <jcorgan> or i could be going about this incorrectly
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3316 2014-02-13 18:55:30 <anddam> maaku: but you used to build, right?
3317 2014-02-13 18:55:43 <maaku> anddam: long time ago. i can't help you
3318 2014-02-13 18:55:46 <anddam> maaku: I don't get if the makefiles should set up Info.plist or not
3319 2014-02-13 18:55:49 <anddam> I'll dig in
3320 2014-02-13 18:56:32 <maaku> lianj: "need" depends on the hat you wear. This has nothing to do with protocol security. But for a businessman running a helpdesk (I've been there), what saves time saves you money, and rightly can be called a "need" if it affects profitability
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3332 2014-02-13 18:57:56 <lianj> maaku: have you ever/often communicated a bitcoin tx id over the phone?
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3335 2014-02-13 18:59:09 <andytoshi> jcorgan: i understand the issue in great detail, i can proofread anything. but i've explained it 600 times in the last 72 hours, i don't have the morale to do it again
3336 2014-02-13 18:59:13 <andytoshi> so i can't help iterate, sorry
3337 2014-02-13 18:59:38 <jcorgan> andytoshi: fair enough.  i'm hoping to create something that will save you from having to explain 600 more times.
3338 2014-02-13 18:59:52 <jcorgan> when i have something coherent, i be sure to ask for your review on it
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3340 2014-02-13 19:00:18 <andytoshi> jcorgan: thanks a million :)
3341 2014-02-13 19:00:29 <xiando> "I agree dead might not be the best word, especially if it can become undead! but difficult to think of another term. In some ways it is a ghost or zombie."
3342 2014-02-13 19:00:33 <maaku> jcorgan: just write something and ask for feedback before spreading it
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3345 2014-02-13 19:01:17 <jcorgan> maaku: absolutely
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3347 2014-02-13 19:02:05 <maaku> jcorgan: you'll find that we won't have time to help you write anything. but we'll make time to review something before it goes to press
3348 2014-02-13 19:02:12 <maaku> that's just human psychology in stressful situations...
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3352 2014-02-13 19:03:27 <jcorgan> agreed, i completely undertstand.  i've written both technical manuals and press releases in a professional capacity, so i know the drill.
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3369 2014-02-13 19:09:57 <anddam> what's the default source of stable tarball, sourceforge or github?
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3373 2014-02-13 19:15:07 <wumpus> anddam: the only place to get the source is github, only binary release files are uploaded to sourceforge
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3388 2014-02-13 19:21:41 <anddam> wumpus: thanks
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3396 2014-02-13 19:24:41 <agentOrange> wow that forbes article is bullshit
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3399 2014-02-13 19:25:58 <roybadami> Well, according to Reuters, hackers are sending mutated lines of code into the program :-)
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3401 2014-02-13 19:26:16 <roybadami> It's a wonder it still compiles...
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3404 2014-02-13 19:27:16 <roybadami> So any statement that helps to educate the media as to what is going on can only help
3405 2014-02-13 19:28:26 <TZander> roybadami: I loved that part (mutated lines of code) :)
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3409 2014-02-13 19:32:06 <roybadami> OT I know, but a few months ago there was also a news article that explained that Bitcoins were produced by a process called "data mining" :)
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3411 2014-02-13 19:33:44 <wumpus> roybadami: if you generate the random code according to the right syntax it will compile (doing anything useful is a whole other ballgame of course, maybe you could use some evolutionary algorithm :-)
3412 2014-02-13 19:34:13 <roybadami> Hmm, I guess injecting random lines of code could be used as a DoS on the pull tester
3413 2014-02-13 19:34:56 <andytoshi> wumpus: you can use a combinatorial tool called 'boltzmann generators' to create large uniformly-random instances of code which satisfy some regular expression
3414 2014-02-13 19:35:13 <andytoshi> i'm sure you could find a subset of compilable c++ that you can describe that way
3415 2014-02-13 19:35:39 <wumpus> andytoshi: hah, interesting
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3419 2014-02-13 19:36:44 <andytoshi> wumpus: actually i'm certain, you do int main() BLOCK, where BLOCK is { BLOCK* }, and make sure that the distribution of BLOCK* has greater than 50% chance of being nothing
3420 2014-02-13 19:36:45 <wumpus> andytoshi: I was thinking of markov chains myself
3421 2014-02-13 19:37:19 <andytoshi> hmm, markov chains would be better for iterative-style code and can probably be "mutated" in nicer ways :P
3422 2014-02-13 19:38:19 <roybadami> If you use identifiers, then you need to care about more than just syntax.  (Have they been declared in the relevent scope, are they of a suitable type.)
3423 2014-02-13 19:38:58 <lnovy> genetics is also usable here
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3427 2014-02-13 19:39:46 <roybadami> So, take an infinite number of altcoins, each running a different mutated version of the reference client....
3428 2014-02-13 19:42:53 <lnovy> ready, what now?
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3454 2014-02-13 20:06:54 <anddam> can anyone comment on the redefine in 0.8.6 serialize?  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/v0.8.6/src/serialize.h#L898
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3456 2014-02-13 20:07:06 <anddam> I just remove the first one
3457 2014-02-13 20:07:08 <anddam> removed*
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3459 2014-02-13 20:08:56 <anddam> the 0.8.6 client for mac say it's "0.8.6-beta" is the beta actually part of the release number?
3460 2014-02-13 20:09:05 <anddam> I mean the 0.8.6 Bitcoin-Qt binary
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3463 2014-02-13 20:10:40 <maaku> anddam: bitcoin is still beta
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3467 2014-02-13 20:13:06 <anddam> should I specify that as well in Info.plist?
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3475 2014-02-13 20:15:36 <anddam> I'm not sure what part of the makefile should replace the $VERSION placeholder in it, after processing makefile.osx I obtain the application bundle with $VERSION and $YEAR
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3536 2014-02-13 20:59:58 <P4Titan> Hello, can someone explain what the SignSignature does?
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3560 2014-02-13 21:14:20 <P4Titan> Is there a way for a transaction to be signed by then sender, proving that he sent it?
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3566 2014-02-13 21:17:56 <lysobit> P4Titan: I believe all transactions are signed by the sender, otherwise anyone could just create fake transactions!
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3569 2014-02-13 21:18:24 <P4Titan> So there is a way to prove I sent a transaction to an address
3570 2014-02-13 21:18:32 <P4Titan> and not someone else
3571 2014-02-13 21:19:23 <lysobit> Yes, it's called the blockchain
3572 2014-02-13 21:19:33 <P4Titan> ok
3573 2014-02-13 21:19:45 <richardus> hue
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3621 2014-02-13 21:47:48 <petertodd> http://www.thenoteblock.com/ <- "Roses will wither, but the Blockchain is forever."
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3624 2014-02-13 21:48:06 <petertodd> something tells me luke-jr and gmaxwell would dump any girl who used that immediately...
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3635 2014-02-13 21:52:33 <roasbeef> http://www.thenoteblock.com/notes/89
3636 2014-02-13 21:52:36 <roasbeef> love is forever
3637 2014-02-13 21:52:51 guruvan has joined
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3639 2014-02-13 21:53:01 <petertodd> lol
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3642 2014-02-13 21:54:11 <edcba> where are the btc going ?
3643 2014-02-13 21:54:28 <maaku> edcba: they are burned in the most destructive way possible
3644 2014-02-13 21:54:32 <maaku> where is the developer for this?
3645 2014-02-13 21:54:44 <petertodd> scott@helloblock.io
3646 2014-02-13 21:54:51 <edcba> we can't prevent that anyway
3647 2014-02-13 21:55:08 <petertodd> edcba: yup
3648 2014-02-13 21:55:11 <maaku> edcba: we can ... but not easily in the near term
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3650 2014-02-13 21:55:23 <edcba> bitcoin v2 ? :)
3651 2014-02-13 21:55:24 <petertodd> no, we can't, even with p2sh^2
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3654 2014-02-13 21:56:38 <maaku> petertodd: we can prevent the basic problem of it being cost effective for people to put this crap in the utxo set forever
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3657 2014-02-13 21:57:17 <petertodd> maaku: yes, the blockchain in general, no
3658 2014-02-13 21:57:25 <petertodd> maaku: (the service already mentions op-return fwiw)
3659 2014-02-13 21:57:33 <maaku> petertodd: but it doesn't use it
3660 2014-02-13 21:57:42 <maaku> the outputs aren't OP_RETURN outputs
3661 2014-02-13 21:57:46 <petertodd> maaku: on reddit they say they're changing that soon
3662 2014-02-13 21:57:57 <petertodd> maaku: they didn't realize 40% of hashing power supports it
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3666 2014-02-13 21:58:53 <petertodd> maaku: anyway, storing hashes happens in the utxo set forever is very useful for all kinds of protocols
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3671 2014-02-13 22:01:19 <P4Titan> Does anyone know in what function a bitcoin transaction is confirmed?
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3673 2014-02-13 22:01:52 <edcba> Accept something iirc
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3682 2014-02-13 22:03:56 <edcba> look at CheckBlock :)
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3684 2014-02-13 22:04:09 <maaku> petertodd: yes, but people should be paying for that usage
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3688 2014-02-13 22:04:35 <P4Titan> edcba: You mean CheckWork?
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3694 2014-02-13 22:06:20 <edcba> ok there is a CheckTransaction...
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3696 2014-02-13 22:06:41 <edcba> but what do you mean by confirmed ?
3697 2014-02-13 22:06:44 _ImI_ has joined
3698 2014-02-13 22:06:57 <P4Titan> Checks if the transaction is legitimate
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3704 2014-02-13 22:10:19 <edcba> there is CheckTransaction but you should really read the whole thing
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3706 2014-02-13 22:11:12 <edcba> also use an IDE to navigate into source code then it's easy to find what you are looking for...
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3708 2014-02-13 22:12:01 <P4Titan> Yes, but the bitcoin project is pretty big
3709 2014-02-13 22:12:43 <P4Titan> I found CheckTransaction, It was under CTransaction::CheckTransaction
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3712 2014-02-13 22:13:27 <anddam> getreceivedbyaddress "Works only for addresses in the local wallet, external addresses will always show 0." - how do I check non local wallet addresses?
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3728 2014-02-13 22:23:21 <helo> anddam: add up the value of unspent outputs that have been sent to them
3729 2014-02-13 22:24:52 <helo> anddam: this isn't part of bitcoind's functionality, as you've noticed
3730 2014-02-13 22:25:50 <maaku> anddam: there's an address-index pull request that can be used to find the relevant transactions, and sum them yourself
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3738 2014-02-13 22:31:19 <quellhorst> do any current bitcoin clients support multi-sig transactions?
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3743 2014-02-13 22:33:16 <roasbeef> electrum does I think
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3750 2014-02-13 22:36:14 <gvrooyen> maaku: any idea what the title of that pull request is? can't seem to find it
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3755 2014-02-13 22:42:11 <anddam> helo: is there a more appropriate tool for the job?
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3763 2014-02-13 22:47:34 <anddam> how do I get addresses for default account?
3764 2014-02-13 22:47:55 <anddam> wiki says    The default account is named with the empty string ("" in JSON)    but getaddressesbyaccount ""
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3766 2014-02-13 22:48:08 <anddam> returns an empty JSON result
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3769 2014-02-13 22:49:22 <andytoshi> anddam: you don't want to use bitcoind accounts
3770 2014-02-13 22:49:30 <anddam> I don't?
3771 2014-02-13 22:49:39 <anddam> I'm playing with the RPC for the first time
3772 2014-02-13 22:49:44 <anddam> what should I be using instead?
3773 2014-02-13 22:50:18 <ThiagoCMC> bitcoind getaccountaddress ""
3774 2014-02-13 22:50:20 <ThiagoCMC> =)
3775 2014-02-13 22:50:54 <anddam> yes, what I fool I was
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3777 2014-02-13 22:51:55 <andytoshi> anddam: just ignore accounts
3778 2014-02-13 22:52:13 <andytoshi> what is wrong with getbalance/getnewaddress/listunspent?
3779 2014-02-13 22:52:51 <ThiagoCMC> I'm a heavy user of accounts...
3780 2014-02-13 22:53:05 <ThiagoCMC> It works great for me...   =)
3781 2014-02-13 22:53:36 <jouke> +1 here
3782 2014-02-13 22:54:12 <andytoshi> jouke, ThiagoCMC: ok, sure, but they don't behave the way a new user might expect and they tend to cause weird questions
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3784 2014-02-13 22:54:29 <ThiagoCMC> Mmmm... Gotcha...
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3789 2014-02-13 22:56:56 <maaku> gvrooyen: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3652
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3799 2014-02-13 23:04:38 <gvrooyen> Thanks, maaku! This seems to be quite valuable for applications that need to track balances outside the local wallet.
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3864 2014-02-13 23:45:01 <sinacc> t
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3866 2014-02-13 23:45:25 <sinacc> guys I'm trying to run bitcoin pull-tester builds from http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/ and they are just crashing on startup on windws. Any help?
3867 2014-02-13 23:45:30 <sinacc> they're supposed to be statically linked right? (and are judging from ~90Mb sizes...)
3868 2014-02-13 23:45:49 <BlueMatt> yes....''
3869 2014-02-13 23:45:51 <BlueMatt> should work
3870 2014-02-13 23:46:15 <sinacc> Well they are crashing on startup.
3871 2014-02-13 23:46:28 <sinacc> Tried with 'current'.
3872 2014-02-13 23:46:28 <BlueMatt> any other info you can provide?
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3875 2014-02-13 23:48:20 <sinacc> Some info from the "bitcoind.exe has stopped working" window: APPCRASH Exception Code:	c0000005  Exception Offset:	00082b37  OS Version:	6.1.7601.2.1.0.256.1.
3876 2014-02-13 23:48:36 _ImI_ has joined
3877 2014-02-13 23:49:12 <sinacc> It is a pretty vanilla x64 Windows 7...
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3879 2014-02-13 23:49:29 <sinacc> I've taken them from /pull-tester/current/out/bitcoind.exe path, maybe I shouldn't use "out" dir?
3880 2014-02-13 23:50:07 <sinacc> No files are created in the data directory. Have tried with -datadir and with no options at all. Have tried with -daemon as well and some other options.
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3885 2014-02-13 23:51:38 <sinacc> c0000005 is Access Violation I think.
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