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  10 2014-02-14 00:04:11 <BlueMatt> sinacc: hmm...ok, well I'll add it to my todo list to (finally) redo the build system over there
  11 2014-02-14 00:04:18 <BlueMatt> mabye in a few months I'll get to it :(
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  13 2014-02-14 00:07:35 <sinacc> Well so do you experience the same problem?
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  58 2014-02-14 00:30:44 <sinacc> Is there anyone who uses builds from the pull-tester (http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/) and for whom they work?
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  60 2014-02-14 00:31:23 <lianj> somehow pr-3656 and gox is getting nowhere :/
  61 2014-02-14 00:31:40 <BlueMatt> sinacc: I dont have a windows vm handy atm
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  66 2014-02-14 00:36:01 <Burrito> *cough*
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  68 2014-02-14 00:37:36 <hasha> 586
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  70 2014-02-14 00:37:42 <hasha> sorry
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 128 2014-02-14 01:17:10 <gdsl-> This cant be good: https://blockchain.info/address/1Enjoy1C4bYBr3tN4sMKxvvJDqG8NkdR4Z
 129 2014-02-14 01:17:38 <gdsl-> Looks like some sort of DOS attack to me
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 133 2014-02-14 01:21:50 <xiando> gdsl-: That's spam for a website, those have a message attached, old news.
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 137 2014-02-14 01:23:58 <gdsl-> Spam in the blockchain :(
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 145 2014-02-14 01:30:11 <lysobit> is transaction malleability considered a "bug"?
 146 2014-02-14 01:30:55 <guest111> it's a design flaw
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 149 2014-02-14 01:32:23 <ibtc> not critical design flaw, which can be worked around
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 167 2014-02-14 01:41:01 <Emcy> why in the fuck cant b.i restrict tagging txns to people who can show they own the address with a signed message
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 169 2014-02-14 01:41:15 <Emcy> do they enjoy being a free advertising platform
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 191 2014-02-14 01:48:38 <dangerm00se> anyone know what's going on? bitcointalk offline ?
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 201 2014-02-14 01:56:43 <devrandom> since 1Enjoy addresses are showing up in blockchain.info, doesn't that mean that their bitcoind is relaying spam?  it could be one of the main reason it's propagating, since they have high connectivity
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 275 2014-02-14 02:46:04 <volante> I'm reading the wiki and trying to understand transaction signatures, particularly Pay-to-PubkeyHash.  it looks like each input needs to have a valid signature over its public key.  how do the signatures become invalid if someone modifies the outputs?  isnt the signature just signing the public key?
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 323 2014-02-14 03:14:57 <lechuga_> how r conflicted txns going to get purged from the mempool
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 358 2014-02-14 03:29:31 <nezZario> Ok, so seriously
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 361 2014-02-14 03:31:01 <nezZario> I wrote some code a few nights ago under the assumption that the txn id could be used as a primary key in a sql database
 362 2014-02-14 03:31:08 <nezZario> It obviously cannot :)
 363 2014-02-14 03:31:22 iwantathink has joined
 364 2014-02-14 03:31:32 <nezZario> I mean, what's the most realistic way to sync an account to a SQL database for further processing?
 365 2014-02-14 03:31:45 <etotheipi_> nezZario: use a pre-signed ID
 366 2014-02-14 03:31:49 <etotheipi_> zero the txIn scripts
 367 2014-02-14 03:31:57 <etotheipi_> and keep a mapping of PSIDs to TxIDs
 368 2014-02-14 03:32:30 <nezZario> Wait a second..
 369 2014-02-14 03:32:31 newy66 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 370 2014-02-14 03:32:34 <etotheipi_> make sure you make the scriptLength VAR_INTs equal to zero when you do it
 371 2014-02-14 03:32:58 HeySteve has joined
 372 2014-02-14 03:33:00 <nezZario> I mean, wait a sec, .. I'm using the API here..
 373 2014-02-14 03:33:06 <etotheipi_> oh, nm
 374 2014-02-14 03:33:15 <nezZario> Yeah, I had a feeling I was missing something =)
 375 2014-02-14 03:33:25 <etotheipi_> though techincally you can still do it
 376 2014-02-14 03:33:36 <etotheipi_> but it will require some manual work
 377 2014-02-14 03:33:53 <etotheipi_> fetch the tx, parse it, zero the scripts, reserialize it, hash it to get the PSID
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 380 2014-02-14 03:34:18 <nezZario> parse it, as in fetch raw ?
 381 2014-02-14 03:34:28 <etotheipi_> okay, I don't think this recommendation is for you :)
 382 2014-02-14 03:34:50 <nezZario> No I'm a really decent programmer.. I'm getting that the txn id can only change if the script is changed?
 383 2014-02-14 03:34:51 <etotheipi_> I'll leave it to someone more knowledgeable about the API to respond
 384 2014-02-14 03:35:11 <etotheipi_> the TxID is the hash of the raw tx
 385 2014-02-14 03:35:29 <etotheipi_> I'm saying, get the raw tx, blank out the scripts, reserialize it, and hash that
 386 2014-02-14 03:36:19 njaard has joined
 387 2014-02-14 03:36:22 <etotheipi_> that hash will be the same no matter how the tx is mutated when it hits the blockchain
 388 2014-02-14 03:36:25 <andytoshi> nezZario: it really depends on what you consider to be the 'same transaction'
 389 2014-02-14 03:36:41 <njaard> hi etotheipi_
 390 2014-02-14 03:36:43 <andytoshi> probably etotheipi_ is right if you're doing something blockchain.info-ish
 391 2014-02-14 03:37:04 <andytoshi> also hi etotheipi_, haven't seen you in a million years. thanks a billion for the diagrams you drew in 2011
 392 2014-02-14 03:37:17 <etotheipi_> andytoshi: thanks :)
 393 2014-02-14 03:37:23 <nezZario> andytoshi: if I wait for it to confirm 2 or 3 times, it should be safe, right?
 394 2014-02-14 03:37:42 <etotheipi_> yeah, I have been avoiding IRC because I lose entire days here, discussing things like how much TNT it would take to reorg 30 blocks :)
 395 2014-02-14 03:37:47 Bear13yte has quit (Quit: Bear13yte)
 396 2014-02-14 03:38:10 <andytoshi> nezZario: yeah, there'd have to be pool involvement to change txids on confirmed transactions. i'd consider them safe after a few..
 397 2014-02-14 03:38:33 Elio19 has joined
 398 2014-02-14 03:38:36 <andytoshi> but strictly speaking it is possible, and there have been 3-blocks-deep reorgs many times before
 399 2014-02-14 03:38:42 <etotheipi_> nezZario: it depends what you're doing... if you are trying to link broadcast transactions to accounts, you'll need to store the PSID somewhere with the account, not just the TxID
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 402 2014-02-14 03:39:25 <etotheipi_> or watch for coins that have the same inputs and outputs of the tx you are expecting
 403 2014-02-14 03:39:27 <andytoshi> so you need to consider what happens to you when it turns out you're wrong. if there is manual database fixing, i guess 3 confirms is a good risk. if there is actual money loss i'd say absolutely not
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 468 2014-02-14 04:20:39 <topace_> hey, i got this error on attempting a withdraw from my wallet, and now the transaction is "stuck" at 0 confirmations...
 469 2014-02-14 04:20:42 <topace_> Error: The transaction was rejected! This might happen if some of the coins in your wallet were already spent, such as if you used a copy of wallet.dat and coins were spent in the copy but not marked as spent here. [-4]
 470 2014-02-14 04:21:07 guest111 has joined
 471 2014-02-14 04:21:35 <topace_> whats the best way to proceed ?
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 482 2014-02-14 04:29:22 <denisx> topace: wait until a fix is out
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 506 2014-02-14 04:43:46 <lifeofcray> test
 507 2014-02-14 04:43:47 <lifeofcray> alright
 508 2014-02-14 04:44:01 <lifeofcray> guys, i'm looking to host a bitcoin wallet for multiple users
 509 2014-02-14 04:44:17 <lifeofcray> do you guys have any suggestion of good, opensource, wallets?
 510 2014-02-14 04:44:24 <lifeofcray> php, mysql, json
 511 2014-02-14 04:44:28 <lifeofcray> or similar
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 518 2014-02-14 04:48:32 <richardus> nice try wallet stealer
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 530 2014-02-14 04:56:44 <lifeofcray> richardus naa
 531 2014-02-14 04:57:18 <lifeofcray> one of the owners of http://bitember.com
 532 2014-02-14 04:57:24 <lifeofcray> looking into expanding
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 537 2014-02-14 04:59:08 <mappum> does bitcoind keep the list of all unspent outputs in memory, or is that too large?
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 577 2014-02-14 05:42:26 <andytoshi> is there a way to get information about the output in listtransactions?
 578 2014-02-14 05:42:33 jtcwang has joined
 579 2014-02-14 05:42:36 <andytoshi> i have figured out the story of all my unconfirmed transactions except one
 580 2014-02-14 05:42:52 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: ^
 581 2014-02-14 05:43:17 <andytoshi> i'm pretty sure i found the tx which invalidated it on bc.i, but i don't remember the story on this one so i'm not sure
 582 2014-02-14 05:44:19 ilovebitcoinfr has joined
 583 2014-02-14 05:45:12 <andytoshi> wait, i do, this one was a no-fee tx which i tried to double-spend and failed (the no-fee version eventually got through)
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 585 2014-02-14 05:46:31 <andytoshi> so of the 16 0-conf entries in my listunspent, ten of them are one double-spend, four of them are another, and the remaining two are two individual attempts to steal PT's OP_CHECKSIG OP_NOT coins
 586 2014-02-14 05:46:42 <andytoshi> neither of the latter are confirmed, but they conflict with each other
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 589 2014-02-14 05:48:04 <gmaxwell> wow you got tx in your wallet that conflict with each other but not one of them is in the chain? I dunno how thats possible.
 590 2014-02-14 05:48:14 iwilcox has joined
 591 2014-02-14 05:48:29 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: you try with that patch?
 592 2014-02-14 05:48:47 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: i constructed both of them by copy/pasting hex from other transactions :P
 593 2014-02-14 05:48:58 <andytoshi> yep, just tried with the patch, things look good, one sec
 594 2014-02-14 05:49:31 <andytoshi> (both are completely nonstandard. i tried to push to eligius -- the first pushed but had no fee, and wasn't mined. the second was rejected because it conflicted)
 595 2014-02-14 05:50:21 <andytoshi> ok, so one conflicted transaction originally appeared four times (as a send and as a receive, and these were duped for some reason)....with the patch it appears only twice (as a send and as a receive, no dupe) and is marked conflicted. success ....
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 601 2014-02-14 05:51:58 <gmaxwell> hm. I'm not sure why it would have been duped or why the patch would have changed that
 602 2014-02-14 05:52:21 <gmaxwell> patch should have just added the conflicted display and confirms -1 to dommed txn (unconfirmed and not in your memory pool)
 603 2014-02-14 05:52:37 <andytoshi> oops, it wasn't duped, there were two addresses involved.
 604 2014-02-14 05:53:01 darwin_ has joined
 605 2014-02-14 05:53:12 <andytoshi> originally it appeared both as a send and as a recieve. now it appears just once, as 'conflicted'. i think that's correct
 606 2014-02-14 05:53:22 <gmaxwell> ah yea, sounds fine.
 607 2014-02-14 05:53:53 <andytoshi> the other conflicted transaction originally appeared 10 times. now it appears 8. it is marked conflicted now, which is great. i'm checking where the 10 and 8 come from..
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 609 2014-02-14 05:54:46 <andytoshi> cool, originally it was there twice as a receive and eight times as a send. now it's just eight times as conflicted. so that's correct also
 610 2014-02-14 05:54:54 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3671 I'd suggest also trying this, but the fact that it only shows normid conflicts makes it unintersting on your wallet, not sure why gavin decided to do it that way, I don't think it's a great approach.
 611 2014-02-14 05:54:57 HeySteve has joined
 612 2014-02-14 05:55:46 <andytoshi> as for the two which were actually unconfirmed, they have vanished from the list.
 613 2014-02-14 05:55:50 <andytoshi> is that right?
 614 2014-02-14 05:56:05 <andytoshi> they conflicted each other but not anything confirmed
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 616 2014-02-14 05:56:26 <andytoshi> oh! the way that i got in that state is i disabled all the checks on sendrawtransaction..
 617 2014-02-14 05:56:43 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: ah, okay, makes a lot more sense now
 618 2014-02-14 05:56:59 <andytoshi> so i think this is the correct behaviour for pepole like me :) it is what i want to have happened anyway
 619 2014-02-14 05:57:04 <gmaxwell> you had me going through the code looking for a way we could annoucne a txn without putting it in the mempool.
 620 2014-02-14 05:57:13 <andytoshi> :P sorry, i forgot i'd done that..
 621 2014-02-14 05:57:22 <gmaxwell> feel free to go post a review on the patch.
 622 2014-02-14 05:57:50 <andytoshi> will do. then i'll try the other one..
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 636 2014-02-14 06:11:29 <topace_> gmaxwell I've got a transaction stuck: "The transaction was rejected! This might happen if some of the coins in your wallet were already spent, such as if you used a copy of wallet.dat and coins were spent in the copy but not marked as spent here"
 637 2014-02-14 06:11:56 <topace_> its deducted my balance from the wallet
 638 2014-02-14 06:12:00 <topace_> and is stuck at 0 confirmations
 639 2014-02-14 06:12:05 <gmaxwell> topace_: what version of bitcoin are you running?
 640 2014-02-14 06:12:09 <topace_> 0.8.6
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 644 2014-02-14 06:12:33 <gmaxwell> topace_: what platform?
 645 2014-02-14 06:12:58 <topace_> linux
 646 2014-02-14 06:12:59 <gmaxwell> topace_: feel like running some pre-release code with some fixes?
 647 2014-02-14 06:12:59 <topace_> 64bit
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 649 2014-02-14 06:13:30 <topace_> i can
 650 2014-02-14 06:13:40 <topace_> i've got a copy of the wallet on a different system
 651 2014-02-14 06:13:48 <topace_> i can take the live wallet offline though
 652 2014-02-14 06:14:02 <gmaxwell> basically you've got a spend of unconfirmed change that will never confirm. Salvage wallet may fix it but its a bit of a blunt instrument and it blows away all of your metadata.
 653 2014-02-14 06:14:02 <topace_> (until I'm sure it'll be fixed)
 654 2014-02-14 06:14:28 <topace_> its a huge wallet.. ~650MB, takes a solid hour to -rescan
 655 2014-02-14 06:14:51 <denisx> what happens to the comments on a zeroconf tx when a patch appears?
 656 2014-02-14 06:15:13 <gmaxwell> There are patches that implement a zapwallettx that will knock them out, which is a nicer thing than salvage but takes a long time to rescan,  and patches to show those txn as conflicted and ignore them for the purpose of authoring new transactions.
 657 2014-02-14 06:15:36 <gmaxwell> denisx: metadata assc is currently lost on those.
 658 2014-02-14 06:16:19 <topace_> i can try zapwallettx fix if you think thats best
 659 2014-02-14 06:16:31 <gmaxwell> topace_: are you able to avoid generating new addresses on it for a while while the wallet is rescanned on another system?
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 663 2014-02-14 06:17:06 <topace_> i can't stop the live system from generating new addresses
 664 2014-02-14 06:17:15 <denisx> how long is long?
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 666 2014-02-14 06:17:48 <topace_> but the copy i have has the same issue even after a -rescan, so i can play/fudge with the copy
 667 2014-02-14 06:17:56 <topace_> until i find  affix
 668 2014-02-14 06:18:10 <topace_> then ill just have to shut the live system down once i know how to fix it there
 669 2014-02-14 06:18:26 <gmaxwell> topace_: I think running with -spendzeroconfchange=0 right now is most prudent, then using  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3669  is probably best at the moment. And should avoid the rescan.
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 671 2014-02-14 06:19:10 <topace_> -spendzeroconfchange=0 on the LIVE system?
 672 2014-02-14 06:19:24 <gmaxwell> yes, but if it's 0.8.6 unpatched then you don't have that.
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 674 2014-02-14 06:19:45 <gmaxwell> spending unconfirmed change is just going to make your problems potentially worse if people are throwing mutants.
 675 2014-02-14 06:20:16 <gmaxwell> There are patches for that for 0.8.6 I'd have to go hunting for them— I don't know where they are. (it's a trivial set of changes)
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 677 2014-02-14 06:20:24 <topace_> live is 0.8.6 stock, so i guess i can't do much on it at the moment.
 678 2014-02-14 06:20:30 <flound1129> what's a safe maximum # of outputs per transaction?  is 50 too high?
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 680 2014-02-14 06:21:08 <gmaxwell> flound1129: 50 sounds fine to me.
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 685 2014-02-14 06:22:08 <andytoshi> does gavin's normtxid order the outputs in some canonical way?
 686 2014-02-14 06:22:14 <gmaxwell> topace_: any case where you spend unconfirmed change is change that your change gets conflicted and you'll end up with coins tied up.
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 688 2014-02-14 06:22:23 <warren> andytoshi: gavin's?
 689 2014-02-14 06:22:28 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: read the code.
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 691 2014-02-14 06:22:46 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: it's just a templatized transaction. why?
 692 2014-02-14 06:23:06 <flound1129> gmaxwell: thx
 693 2014-02-14 06:23:28 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: it turns out one of my double-spends is actually malleated. but this occured before the malleability bot was running.
 694 2014-02-14 06:23:42 <andytoshi> it's a coinjoin so i think they just differ in input/output ordering
 695 2014-02-14 06:23:49 <gmaxwell> er.
 696 2014-02-14 06:23:59 <gmaxwell> that shouldn't match. are you sure they don't match from someone resigning?
 697 2014-02-14 06:24:19 <andytoshi> not sure at all, one sec
 698 2014-02-14 06:24:34 <topace_> okay I'm a git newb, how do i pull that patch into my local code?
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 701 2014-02-14 06:24:47 <gmaxwell> just getrawtxn 1 on it. and diff.
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 704 2014-02-14 06:25:40 <gmaxwell> topace_: there are a bunch of ways ... wget https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3669.patch and applying it with git am -3  or patch, is one way.
 705 2014-02-14 06:25:56 <andytoshi> if i do getrawtransaction it says 'no information available' about the unconfirmed version
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 707 2014-02-14 06:26:06 <gmaxwell> topace_: on second thought -spendzeroconfchange=0 + 3669 will not release any coins you currently have tied up in a conflicted transaction, so you still may need to zap.
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 710 2014-02-14 06:28:02 <topace_> is zapwallettx not 3669?
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 712 2014-02-14 06:29:02 <lnovy> no
 713 2014-02-14 06:29:20 <lnovy> 3659 is zapwallet
 714 2014-02-14 06:29:33 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: you're right, i must've resigned this, the ordering would be the same because my joiner only randomizes the ordering once
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 717 2014-02-14 06:29:48 <andytoshi> and i remember when this happened, the joiner server was in a stable state
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 719 2014-02-14 06:31:32 <topace_> and zapwallettx is better than salvage in this case?
 720 2014-02-14 06:31:40 <topace_> or might either fix the problem?
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 722 2014-02-14 06:32:04 <topace_> salvage is in 0.8.6? i could run it on my wallet copy
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 725 2014-02-14 06:32:43 <gmaxwell> zapwallettx is better than salvage.  Salvage is a very blunt instrument, doesn't always work completely right, and erases everything except keys.
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 727 2014-02-14 06:33:06 <gmaxwell> I'd strongly recommend zapwallettx over salvage.
 728 2014-02-14 06:33:30 <gmaxwell> I've got a testnet wallet here which is completely savaged by salvagewallet. Of course, make a backup first no matter what.
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 731 2014-02-14 06:34:16 <topace_> should i put both 3669 and 3569 in?
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 733 2014-02-14 06:34:26 <gmaxwell> yes.
 734 2014-02-14 06:34:44 <volante> hi. I'm reading the wiki and need some help understanding transaction signatures, specifically Pay-to-PubkeyHash.  it looks like each input needs to have a valid signature over its public key.  how do the signatures become invalid if someone modifies the transaction outputs?  isnt the signature just signing the public key?
 735 2014-02-14 06:34:57 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 736 2014-02-14 06:35:17 <gmaxwell> volante: no the signature signs the whole transaction with the signatures masked out (assuming sighash_all)
 737 2014-02-14 06:36:21 iwilcox has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 738 2014-02-14 06:36:57 <volante> oh i see.  thanks.
 739 2014-02-14 06:37:25 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: tested both of gavin's PRs, posted comments on both. both worked correctly, and i had a good mix of double-spends.
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 743 2014-02-14 06:39:22 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: can you check getunconfirmedbalance ? I assume it's incorrect as noted on the pull: counting the conflicted txn... when it probably shouldn't.
 744 2014-02-14 06:39:26 <topace_> hmm what libdb version do i need? saw something about binary incompatibility across versions..?
 745 2014-02-14 06:39:46 <gmaxwell> topace_: 4.8 assuming you are using the published bitcoin binaries normally.
 746 2014-02-14 06:40:34 <topace_> ugh this is gonna be a mess on ubuntu
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 749 2014-02-14 06:40:50 <topace_> it already has 5.1 as a dependency for other packages
 750 2014-02-14 06:41:00 <gmaxwell> you can have both installed at once, they don't conflict.
 751 2014-02-14 06:41:19 <gmaxwell> If there isn't a 4.8 package for your version I believe the bitcoin ppa run by bluematt has one.
 752 2014-02-14 06:41:27 <gmaxwell> (sorry, I'm not an ubuntu user myself)
 753 2014-02-14 06:41:31 <topace_> ii  libdb4.8                         4.8.30-11ubuntu1                  Berkeley v4.8 Database Libraries [runtime]
 754 2014-02-14 06:41:31 <topace_> ii  libdb4.8-dev                     4.8.30-11ubuntu1                  Berkeley v4.8 Database Libraries [development]
 755 2014-02-14 06:42:09 <topace_> configure doesn't find them
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 757 2014-02-14 06:43:39 <flound1129> gmaxwell: while you're here, do you know why bitcoind strace is spammed with futex errors?
 758 2014-02-14 06:44:06 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: yup, getunconfirmedbalance includes conflicts on both patches. i edited my comments to reflect this
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 763 2014-02-14 06:48:59 <venzen> topace: you also need libdb4.8++-dev
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 767 2014-02-14 06:50:51 <andytoshi> it's 1am here, i'm headed to bed. thx to all the devs for the hard work they have put into bitcoind over the last 72 hours!
 768 2014-02-14 06:51:05 <topace_> indeed
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 770 2014-02-14 06:51:25 <topace_> can't wait for next full release, maybe things will go back to "normal"
 771 2014-02-14 06:51:27 <topace_> lol whatever that is
 772 2014-02-14 06:51:52 <BlueMatt> topace: need to add the ppa
 773 2014-02-14 06:51:52 <topace_> venzen, thanks, thats what i was missing
 774 2014-02-14 06:51:58 <BlueMatt> like apt-add-repository or something
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 779 2014-02-14 06:52:45 <topace_> which ppa ?
 780 2014-02-14 06:52:55 <maaku> the bitcoin ppa
 781 2014-02-14 06:53:07 <maaku> ;;google bitcoin ppa stable
 782 2014-02-14 06:53:07 <gribble> Bitcoin - Stable Channel : “Bitcoin” team - Launchpad: <https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin>; Packages in “Bitcoin - Stable Channel” - Launchpad: <https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin/+packages>; Stable releases : “Yacoin” team - Launchpad: <https://launchpad.net/~yacoin/+archive/yacoin>
 783 2014-02-14 06:54:00 <venzen> topace_: you're welcome. be sure to check the doc at bitcoin/doc/build-unix.md ... saved me many hours (the second time round)
 784 2014-02-14 06:54:04 * BlueMatt -> bed
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 792 2014-02-14 07:04:08 <topace_> starting up now
 793 2014-02-14 07:04:11 <topace_> 2014-02-14 07:03:22 init message: Zapping all transactions from wallet...
 794 2014-02-14 07:04:31 <topace_> zap implies -rescan, so that'll be an hour at least..
 795 2014-02-14 07:05:53 <topace_> 2014-02-14 07:05:12 init message: Loading wallet...
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 802 2014-02-14 07:11:32 <gmaxwell> "-nuketxns"
 803 2014-02-14 07:11:39 <gmaxwell> :P
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 806 2014-02-14 07:13:22 <muhoo> my god. what kind of help do you need to resolve the shitshow that is the corporate media handling of this issue?
 807 2014-02-14 07:14:01 <muhoo> writing docs? reviewing docs? is there a wiki somewhere?
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 813 2014-02-14 07:17:17 <muhoo> it seems that the best communicators have their heads down writing code, reviewing code, thinking, solving problems, etc. and haven't had time to really educate the financial media. so in stead they're parroting mtgox fud, etc.
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 820 2014-02-14 07:21:44 <gmaxwell> muhoo: probably bitstamp getting withdrawls on line would accomplish 10x more than anything else.
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 823 2014-02-14 07:22:13 <muhoo> aye.
 824 2014-02-14 07:22:54 <muhoo> are they blocked on anything from anyone else? or just goign through their own internal process?
 825 2014-02-14 07:23:25 <muhoo> btw "best communicators" is basically, you, and gavin, and a couple others.
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 827 2014-02-14 07:23:47 <anddam> gmaxwell: yea, when you open your exchange let me know and I'll jump in
 828 2014-02-14 07:24:24 <muhoo> i don't think any sane person would want to run an exchange
 829 2014-02-14 07:24:31 <gmaxwell> muhoo: I don't know at this point. There was past communication but it's died down now.
 830 2014-02-14 07:24:40 <gmaxwell> muhoo: exactly (wrt: sane and exchanges)
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 832 2014-02-14 07:25:21 <Luke-Jr> ^
 833 2014-02-14 07:25:56 <anddam> the    Base58Check(version byte,RIPEMD160(SHA256(script)))   address formula at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Base58Check_encoding#Encoding_a_Bitcoin_address is the short version of https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_version_1_Bitcoin_addresses right?
 834 2014-02-14 07:26:07 banghouse has joined
 835 2014-02-14 07:26:15 <maaku> "-nuketxns" is better than "-zapwallettx" (singular)
 836 2014-02-14 07:26:22 <anddam> I should refer to te latter for getting an address from script hash
 837 2014-02-14 07:26:41 <wumpus> muhoo: one good thing to come from this is that I'm seeing a huge spike in interest in bitcoin's internal workings
 838 2014-02-14 07:26:42 lachesis has joined
 839 2014-02-14 07:26:45 <anddam> is there a function in API already for doing that?
 840 2014-02-14 07:27:12 <maaku> wumpus: yes, that's very good
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 856 2014-02-14 07:37:32 <muhoo> wumpus: sure, in the long run it  makes the system stronger.
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 858 2014-02-14 07:38:18 <murr4y> hi all - is there a changelog for protocol changes somewhere?
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 861 2014-02-14 07:40:42 <wumpus> murr4y: not specifically, though generally protocol changes are first described in a bip which you can fine here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips
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 865 2014-02-14 07:43:16 <murr4y> aha, thanks
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 870 2014-02-14 07:49:18 <venzen> muhoo: re- corporate/mainstream gorefest - it's the social mood in general IMO - nothing would detract them now... had this happened during the highs the headlines would have been "Bitcoin exchanges successfully defend against DDoS"
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 872 2014-02-14 07:51:13 <venzen> once the exchanges re-enable withdrawals and this upgrade is released; there should be a wider turn in mood around the same time... the devs are doing great work here.
 873 2014-02-14 07:51:22 <wumpus> it will die down anyway, and in a few weeks everyone will have forgotten what the fuss was about
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 875 2014-02-14 07:51:48 <muhoo> that's been the pattern, true.
 876 2014-02-14 07:52:31 <wumpus> ... and there will be lots of new people which never went through this to cry wolf about the next issue happens
 877 2014-02-14 07:52:53 <muhoo> so far i've been through 3 bubbles and crashes
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 881 2014-02-14 07:54:41 <tommygunner> just another case of webwallets
 882 2014-02-14 07:54:54 <tommygunner> people always need to learn the hard way
 883 2014-02-14 07:55:57 <muhoo> it's the inexorable march of technology. stuff grows, flaws get exposed (or exploited), bugs get fixed, system gets stronger.
 884 2014-02-14 07:56:29 <wumpus> well not people in general, there could just as well be a majority of people getting things right, but you never hear them.. that's the distortion lens of the internet
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 892 2014-02-14 07:58:19 <wumpus> you only hear about problems problems problems
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 895 2014-02-14 08:00:05 <muhoo> i remember this: http://www.phworld.org/history/attcrash.htm somehow the phone network is still here
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 899 2014-02-14 08:03:13 <anddam> http://goo.gl/1vGGFS has two transactions from the mtgox missing pool api, the second has an ['out']['addr'] value that start with 6, I guess that's not a bitcoin address, right?
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 901 2014-02-14 08:05:22 <wumpus> looks like hex not base58
 902 2014-02-14 08:05:58 <wumpus> (and no, it doesn't look like the decoded hex form of the address either, no version byte for example)
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 904 2014-02-14 08:07:59 <wumpus> it's 160 bits so it is likely the raw hash160(sha256(pubkey))
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 906 2014-02-14 08:09:59 <anddam> hash160 is RIPEMD-160 right?
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 908 2014-02-14 08:10:27 <wumpus> yes
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 910 2014-02-14 08:11:32 <wumpus> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_version_1_Bitcoin_addresses
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 912 2014-02-14 08:12:44 <anddam> wumpus: that's what I'm reading
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 919 2014-02-14 08:15:36 <wumpus> oh I see now it was posted a few lines before too, sorry \o/
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 983 2014-02-14 08:46:54 <anddam> ok that was straight forward https://gist.github.com/anddam/8997785
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 985 2014-02-14 08:47:11 <anddam> without the space
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 988 2014-02-14 08:51:23 <anddam> the blockchain I have on my computer contains info about all transactions, doesn't it?
 989 2014-02-14 08:51:53 <tommygunner> naturally
 990 2014-02-14 08:51:57 <wumpus> anddam: you could remove some intermediate encode/ .decode('hex') steps, but looks ok
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 993 2014-02-14 08:53:21 <wumpus> anddam: depends on what you mean with 'all transactions', it will contain all confirmed transactions up until the point you are synchronized
 994 2014-02-14 08:53:51 <anddam> wumpus: I prefer readability, in this case adherence to the wiki page, over code optimization
 995 2014-02-14 08:53:59 <anddam> I mean I only have to parse a handful of tx once
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 997 2014-02-14 08:54:05 <Logicwax> question about malleability.....
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 999 2014-02-14 08:54:39 <Logicwax> if someone has a donation address that people donate to, and they keep using that address, and its cleared out every so often (money tx'd from it to another holding address)....
1000 2014-02-14 08:54:48 <wumpus> anddam: I'm not sure it is good for readability to do extra steps, but ok, I don't really mind it was just a suggestion
1001 2014-02-14 08:54:56 <anddam> wumpus: I see, thanks
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1004 2014-02-14 08:55:48 <Logicwax> lets say, i convince someone who controls a donation address to send me a few BTC from it.    couldn't I record that transaction, malform it so it gets another TXID, and then replay it back at a later time?
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1007 2014-02-14 08:56:38 <anddam> Logicwax: replay it?
1008 2014-02-14 08:56:53 <Logicwax> like if wikipedia accepts donations at an address, and i convince the webmaster to send me 1BTC from that address at any point in time.....couldnt i keep submitting that TX again and again with a new txid if i malform it?
1009 2014-02-14 08:57:05 <Logicwax> anddam: re-submit it
1010 2014-02-14 08:58:02 <wumpus> Logicwax: you can, but it would be pointless, only one variant will count
1011 2014-02-14 08:58:03 <anddam> you mean because the input would eventually have available non spent money (UTXO?)
1012 2014-02-14 08:58:18 <Logicwax> yeah.
1013 2014-02-14 08:58:25 <wumpus> Logicwax: if it was THAT easy, don't you think everyone would be bankrupted by now :-)
1014 2014-02-14 08:58:27 <Logicwax> it sounded like from this URL: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3656#issuecomment-35055553    that it could happen
1015 2014-02-14 08:58:41 <Logicwax> i know wumpus, thats why im asking.   what exactly stops that from happening?
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1017 2014-02-14 08:59:23 <wumpus> Logicwax: all nodes and miners validate transactions, and they reject transactions that conflict with a prior transactions, no conflicting transactions (such as double spends) can make it into the block chain
1018 2014-02-14 08:59:27 <Logicwax> thepiratebay has a constant re-usable donation address.   im sure they transfer money out of it every so often.   but even as it gets filled back up with more transactions, what stops the replay?
1019 2014-02-14 08:59:30 <wumpus> Logicwax: read up on double spending protection in bitcoin
1020 2014-02-14 08:59:56 <anddam> I think the conflict is not obvious to him in this case (to me neither actually)
1021 2014-02-14 08:59:57 <Logicwax> i know, but wouldnt this NOT be a double spend if the address is re-filled?
1022 2014-02-14 09:00:30 <wumpus> It would certainly a double spend. Everything that tries to spend the same inputs twice is a double-spend
1023 2014-02-14 09:00:38 <anddam> it'd be like an automated ATM withdraw from your PoV
1024 2014-02-14 09:00:40 <wumpus> for a second time*
1025 2014-02-14 09:00:48 <anddam> so inputs are unique
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1027 2014-02-14 09:00:54 <Logicwax> well then how does emptying an address a second time different than this?
1028 2014-02-14 09:01:31 <wumpus> Logicwax: this has nothing to do with addresses, transactions happen on a lower level (inputs and outputs)
1029 2014-02-14 09:01:38 <Logicwax> if you send me 10 BTC to XXXXX, i then TX 10 BTC out of that to YYYYY.    then later someone else TX 10 BTC to XXXXX, then why cant i respend whats in XXXXXX
1030 2014-02-14 09:01:51 <Logicwax> hrmm
1031 2014-02-14 09:02:06 <anddam> tommygunner: about "Works only for addresses in the local wallet, external addresses will always show 0." how would I go for querying external addresses?
1032 2014-02-14 09:02:24 <Logicwax> ohhh wait, perhaps even when they re-empty the address, it still uses the prev outputs of all those who donated
1033 2014-02-14 09:03:13 <Logicwax> yeah i get it now....stupid question
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1039 2014-02-14 09:06:02 <wumpus> Logicwax: when a transaction spends prior coins it needs to identify the exact input (txid-vout) pair that it spends, you can see the addresses and keys as an authentication layer on top but they don't identify 'coins'
1040 2014-02-14 09:06:45 <Logicwax> yeah
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1042 2014-02-14 09:07:58 <wumpus> and even if you understand all that, you can still mess up, bitcoin is complex and please stop asking stupid questions instead of making stupid assumptions :)
1043 2014-02-14 09:08:13 <wumpus> -stop
1044 2014-02-14 09:08:46 <Logicwax> well i wasnt assuming, heh.  i knew it wouldn't work
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1046 2014-02-14 09:08:58 <Logicwax> but it was my way of proposing "what mechanism stops this?"
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1048 2014-02-14 09:09:11 <wumpus> yes but I mean it's better to ask instead of just doing something which turns out to be wrong later
1049 2014-02-14 09:09:23 <Logicwax> but then i realized, the Malleability doesnt change the situation
1050 2014-02-14 09:09:27 <wumpus> like using txids for persistently identifying transactions like people did
1051 2014-02-14 09:09:37 <Logicwax> oh yeah definitely
1052 2014-02-14 09:09:49 <wumpus> if they bothered to ask a 'dumb question' here it probably wouldnt have happened
1053 2014-02-14 09:09:55 <lnovy> txids are not unique ;)
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1056 2014-02-14 09:11:08 <wumpus> lnovy: oh really? :P
1057 2014-02-14 09:11:45 <lnovy> wumpus: really really... only those of transactions with unspent outputs are unique
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1061 2014-02-14 09:12:52 <wumpus> they are entirely unique, just not stable over mutations that don't affect the signature/validity, so you can have multiple txids for what you would call one transaction, but you still can't have multiple transactions with one txid (unless you count sha256 collisions...)
1062 2014-02-14 09:13:04 <lnovy> It is like hour or so when I revealed this secret to mr. karpales :)
1063 2014-02-14 09:13:07 <wumpus> anyway that's splitting hairs
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1065 2014-02-14 09:13:25 <Logicwax> dont the current proposed fixes still leave the problem of zeroconf change?
1066 2014-02-14 09:13:40 <lnovy> you can have two instances of exactly the same transaction to byte in blockchain
1067 2014-02-14 09:13:46 <wumpus> Logicwax: yes, using zeroconf change will remain a gamble
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1069 2014-02-14 09:13:52 <lnovy> therefore txid is not unique
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1074 2014-02-14 09:14:08 <wumpus> Logicwax: you can solve that problem by not spending zeroconf change
1075 2014-02-14 09:14:17 <wumpus> lnovy: no, you can't have that!
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1077 2014-02-14 09:14:33 <wumpus> lnovy: you cannot have duplicate transaction in the block chain!
1078 2014-02-14 09:14:49 <lnovy> wumpus: read and learn: 00~https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0030.mediawiki01
1079 2014-02-14 09:15:06 <Logicwax> yeah..easier said than done i bet.   im sure lots of POS systems need to use zeroconf change
1080 2014-02-14 09:15:07 <lnovy> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0030.mediawiki
1081 2014-02-14 09:15:48 <wumpus> Logicwax: or you can spend zeroconf change but you have to take care that the transaction may change under you, so you may have to re-sign
1082 2014-02-14 09:15:50 <lnovy> Logicwax: in that situation you either have to wait or just have more spare coins
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1084 2014-02-14 09:16:38 <Logicwax> oh geez...according to that link, coinbase TXs were hit too?   ouch
1085 2014-02-14 09:17:23 <Logicwax> wumpus: well why the hell do transactions need to reference other TXs in the same block left over from change by their TXID?  isnt the input identifer enough?
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1088 2014-02-14 09:17:38 <wumpus> Logicwax: lnovy is just confusing things, the duplicates that bip 0030 is talking about have nothing to do with the duplicates used in the DOS
1089 2014-02-14 09:18:27 <wumpus> Logicwax: because thransactions don't 'know' they will end up in the same block in advance
1090 2014-02-14 09:18:32 <lnovy> Logicwax: imagine a situation when you are solo-mining directly to the exchange address and suddenly they are unable to process any outgoing transaction for 100 blocks
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1095 2014-02-14 09:20:00 <Logicwax> but what good does the TXID help?  during validation, wouldn't the inputs->outputs->inputs be all stringed together?
1096 2014-02-14 09:20:12 <Logicwax> cus in the end, thats all that matters
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1098 2014-02-14 09:20:26 <Logicwax> so why bother using TXID as the indentifier of a prev transaction
1099 2014-02-14 09:20:31 <wumpus> Logicwax: because it identifies (together with  vout id#) what coin your input wants to spend
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1101 2014-02-14 09:20:53 <wumpus> Logicwax: it is what is used to chain the transactions together
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1103 2014-02-14 09:20:54 <Logicwax> right.  so couldnt it JUST be vout id#?
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1105 2014-02-14 09:21:15 <wumpus> eh no... vout id is a small integer, usually 0
1106 2014-02-14 09:21:24 <Logicwax> ah
1107 2014-02-14 09:21:25 <wumpus> (depending on the number of outputs the prev tx has)
1108 2014-02-14 09:22:36 <Logicwax> hypothetically speaking, it sounds like using the inputs/output identifiers as truth would make more sense, if you cant garuntee TXIDs to be truth
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1113 2014-02-14 09:23:15 <lnovy> txid:vout is unique in your unspent coins, but not in all coins you could have possibly recieved... you need to have this in mind when you do eg. accounting
1114 2014-02-14 09:23:51 <Logicwax> good point
1115 2014-02-14 09:23:57 <lnovy> but even thou txid is not unique, you can make ntxid unique on your outgoing transactions
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1117 2014-02-14 09:24:21 <lnovy> but you need to slip a transaction in between
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1122 2014-02-14 09:26:19 <lnovy> in the end, I thought this was first usable thing of ntxid that would deserve standardisation, but then blocknum:txid is much more effective
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1124 2014-02-14 09:26:41 <wumpus> blocknum is not a good measure as it may change under reorganizations
1125 2014-02-14 09:27:13 <lnovy> it is good enough, it's solid after short time
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1129 2014-02-14 09:27:41 <Logicwax> i have to read up on what ntxid is
1130 2014-02-14 09:27:43 <wumpus> no, it's not good enough, please don't get people from one broken solution to another
1131 2014-02-14 09:27:47 <Logicwax> thats a new one for me
1132 2014-02-14 09:28:04 <lnovy> and probability of having same txids closer than 100 blocks is very very small
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1134 2014-02-14 09:28:51 <lnovy> wumpus: at least it is unique by definition, ntxid is not, you have to be carefull to make them so
1135 2014-02-14 09:28:54 <wumpus> yes but if it happens it would be disastrous if people use that way of identifying transactions
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1139 2014-02-14 09:29:31 <lnovy> no, I'm not speaking about identifiing transaction to other party, I'm talking accounting here
1140 2014-02-14 09:29:51 <wumpus> at least if they reissue with different inputs, if they reissue with the same inputs it's always ok
1141 2014-02-14 09:30:20 <Logicwax> is ntxid a new proposal?
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1143 2014-02-14 09:30:35 <lnovy> no, txid is not unique -> ntxid is not unique
1144 2014-02-14 09:30:48 <lnovy> yes, I'm trying to kill it
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1147 2014-02-14 09:31:01 <lianj> b/win21
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1150 2014-02-14 09:31:24 <Logicwax> oh...the gox proposed thingy
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1168 2014-02-14 09:40:20 <xiando> 10:39 <AvalonSales> I SELL: Avalon1 110GH/s bitcoin mining machines. Message me for more info!
1169 2014-02-14 09:40:40 ilovebitcoinfr has joined
1170 2014-02-14 09:40:51 <wumpus> xiando: please don't relay spam here
1171 2014-02-14 09:40:53 <xiando> onjoin spam when joining this channel from that thing, that nick not in channel so something/some other nick here triggers it
1172 2014-02-14 09:41:26 <wumpus> I think you can report spammers in #freenode
1173 2014-02-14 09:41:57 <Elio19> I totally want one of those ^
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1179 2014-02-14 09:45:25 <Mallstromm> may I ask if there is an ETA for a fix for the malleability issue? I know there won't be a fix that will make txid immutable, but something that will clean up our QT's and will make the balance to be displayed correctly
1180 2014-02-14 09:46:02 <under_hood> Mallstromm: look at github
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1182 2014-02-14 09:46:21 <under_hood> Mallstromm: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3671
1183 2014-02-14 09:46:44 <Mallstromm> "I need to sleep on the last commit, I'm afraid it might open up services to a double-spend attack if a blockchain re-org is done."
1184 2014-02-14 09:46:54 <under_hood> however take in to account bitcoin is security criticall software so code review and acceptance can take long time
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1187 2014-02-14 09:47:22 <anddam> sorry to re-ask but who am I supposed to query bitcoind for coins received by a non-mine address?
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1189 2014-02-14 09:47:41 <anddam> oh, "mine" is a double-entendre in the bitcoin context
1190 2014-02-14 09:47:45 <under_hood> Mallstromm: there is work done. ETA is unknown. But it is on good way. example Sipahash(tm)
1191 2014-02-14 09:47:46 <Elio19> Mallstromm, did you consider take the money from their account before asking bitcoind for a txid?
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1193 2014-02-14 09:48:00 <anddam> should I use some third-party API like blockchain.info?
1194 2014-02-14 09:48:25 <wumpus> anddam: you can't with the stock bitcoind, there is a patch floating around for building a by-address index
1195 2014-02-14 09:49:09 <Mallstromm> Elio19: I did not understand what you mean, sorry
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1197 2014-02-14 09:49:36 <Elio19> Mallstromm, it's okay.
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1201 2014-02-14 09:52:31 <Logicwax> yeah the guy who devs coinpunk refers to that patch
1202 2014-02-14 09:52:36 <Logicwax> the bitcoind watchonly patch
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1205 2014-02-14 09:53:27 <Logicwax> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2861
1206 2014-02-14 09:53:39 <Logicwax> ^^ thats the watchonly patch
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1211 2014-02-14 09:55:02 <Elio19> For example: when the users click the withdraw button, shrink their balance then relay the transaction to bitcoind. Not confirm a txid is potential workaround, right?
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1224 2014-02-14 10:03:33 <anddam> wumpus: is there a third party tool better suited? like an external program rather than patching my running bitcoind?
1225 2014-02-14 10:04:13 <anddam> wumpus: I'm sorry but I don't know how blockchain is stored, I thought that since it has info about all txs it could be queried
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1229 2014-02-14 10:04:57 <wumpus> anddam: all the info is stored in the blockchain that you downloaded, the only thing missing is an index for efficient loopups
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1231 2014-02-14 10:05:02 <maaku> anddam: that information would have to be indexed to be efficiently queried
1232 2014-02-14 10:05:05 <wumpus> lookups*
1233 2014-02-14 10:05:15 <wumpus> anddam: which is what the patched bitcoind's would do
1234 2014-02-14 10:05:24 <wumpus> (+ add an RPC to query the index)
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1236 2014-02-14 10:05:43 <anddam> wumpus: ok what if I want to query inefficiently?
1237 2014-02-14 10:05:54 <wumpus> anddam: see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2802
1238 2014-02-14 10:05:56 <anddam> I mean is that a matter of efficiency or vanilla bitcoind cannot do it at all?
1239 2014-02-14 10:05:59 <anddam> thanks
1240 2014-02-14 10:06:06 <wumpus> anddam: you can query all blocks one-by-one and look for transactions
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1243 2014-02-14 10:06:38 <anddam> that's like the ~300k blocks
1244 2014-02-14 10:07:17 <anddam> so I should iteratively go through each block, get each transaction and check output of each of those, right?
1245 2014-02-14 10:07:22 <wumpus> anddam: iterate over all existing blocks with getblockhash, then you can query the blocks with getblock
1246 2014-02-14 10:07:26 <anddam> the output of a transaction is an address, right?
1247 2014-02-14 10:07:48 <wumpus> yes, that is what the indexing process does, but if you want to do a linear query you need to go through everything for every query
1248 2014-02-14 10:08:01 <anddam> I see the complexity there
1249 2014-02-14 10:08:13 <maaku> anddam: vanilla bitcoind doesn't expose any capability to scan the entire block chain for information
1250 2014-02-14 10:08:26 <anddam> how's the blockchain stored? isn't there a RDBMS?
1251 2014-02-14 10:08:37 <maaku> (think about how long it would take to scan 17GB of data for each and every query)
1252 2014-02-14 10:08:41 <maaku> no
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1254 2014-02-14 10:08:48 <maaku> it's a series of flat files
1255 2014-02-14 10:08:54 <maaku> definately not a rdbms
1256 2014-02-14 10:09:02 <wumpus> maaku: yes it does, you can query all the data using getblockhash/getblock
1257 2014-02-14 10:09:04 <anddam> I guess the adoption of a rdbms has been discussed
1258 2014-02-14 10:09:20 <maaku> wumpus: those use the indices...
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1260 2014-02-14 10:09:34 <maaku> you can't query by e.g. address which is what he's asking about
1261 2014-02-14 10:09:41 <maaku> (unless you apply the addressindex patch)
1262 2014-02-14 10:09:50 <anddam> maaku: btw I didn't realize you were talking as well because the color scheme in this term has highlight almost the same as regular text
1263 2014-02-14 10:09:56 <wumpus> maaku: sure, you'd have to iterate over all blocks with those calls and find the matching transactions yourself
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1266 2014-02-14 10:10:05 <wumpus> maaku: it's super-super-slow but possible, that was the point
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1268 2014-02-14 10:11:20 <anddam> and isn't there a dedicated querying tool, I have to patch bitcoin
1269 2014-02-14 10:11:39 <anddam> what happens if I try to start two bitcoind instances?
1270 2014-02-14 10:11:49 <maaku> anddam: why would you want to?
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1272 2014-02-14 10:11:54 <anddam> can it corrupt my chain/wallet/chair?
1273 2014-02-14 10:11:57 <maaku> don't do it in the same data directory
1274 2014-02-14 10:12:00 <anddam> maaku: by mistake, for instance
1275 2014-02-14 10:12:12 <maaku> the 2nd one will recognize what is going on and shut down
1276 2014-02-14 10:12:14 <anddam> I have the Qt program running and I run bitcoind
1277 2014-02-14 10:12:38 <wumpus> anddam: you can't, the datadir is protected against simultaneous instances
1278 2014-02-14 10:12:51 <wumpus> you can of course run multiple instances with different data dirs
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1280 2014-02-14 10:13:16 <Xman> is there anynews about the bug
1281 2014-02-14 10:13:27 <maaku> and to a limited extent you can share blockchain files that have already been fully downloaded
1282 2014-02-14 10:13:37 <maaku> Xman: what bug
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1293 2014-02-14 10:21:10 <anddam> wumpus: that is now https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3652
1294 2014-02-14 10:24:07 <wumpus> maaku: yes, you can swap out the blockchain data when the processes are not running
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1298 2014-02-14 10:26:59 <anddam> what is bitcoin-cli?
1299 2014-02-14 10:27:14 <anddam> or better, how does it differ from bitcoind?
1300 2014-02-14 10:27:23 <anddam> I built using makefile.osx and got only bitcoin-qt and bitcoind
1301 2014-02-14 10:27:58 <anddam> but I see how a client would be more likely be called bitcoin or bitcoin-cli rather than bitcoind
1302 2014-02-14 10:28:54 <wumpus> anddam: bitcoin-cli is the RPC client for bitcoind/-qt
1303 2014-02-14 10:29:17 <anddam> wumpus: is it a different target?
1304 2014-02-14 10:29:19 <wumpus> anddam: it is in the process of being split off from bitcoind, but for 0.9.x you can still use bitcoind as a RPC client too (after that, it will only be a server)
1305 2014-02-14 10:29:20 <anddam> I'd like to build it as well
1306 2014-02-14 10:29:41 <anddam> oh nice, because that's what I expected from the "bitcoind" name
1307 2014-02-14 10:29:48 <anddam> I'm on 0.8.6
1308 2014-02-14 10:30:01 <wumpus> only 0.9 has bitcoin-cli; on 0.8.6 you still need to use bitcoind
1309 2014-02-14 10:30:21 <wumpus> (or you can copy a bitcoin-cli from a 0.9 build and use it for 0.8.6, that would work but is overkill)
1310 2014-02-14 10:30:41 <anddam> wumpus: thanks, I just had to understand that
1311 2014-02-14 10:31:05 <wumpus> if you want forward compatibility you could symlink bitcoind to bitcoin-cli already
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1313 2014-02-14 10:31:11 <Logicwax> [02:08] <maaku> (think about how long it would take to scan 17GB of data for each and every query)
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1315 2014-02-14 10:31:19 <Logicwax> then how are TXs verified so quickly?
1316 2014-02-14 10:31:22 <wumpus> or make an alias, or...
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1318 2014-02-14 10:31:48 <Logicwax> how does each TX get checked against its inputs that are prev outputs so quickly without iterating and finding which blocks those prev ones are in
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1321 2014-02-14 10:32:01 <wumpus> Logicwax: because that uses a different kind of indexing
1322 2014-02-14 10:32:13 <shaileshg> test
1323 2014-02-14 10:32:25 <wumpus> Logicwax: verifying txes is done by keeping the current UTXO, it has nothing to do with an index by address
1324 2014-02-14 10:32:30 <anddam> point is I'm using 0.8.6 that is several months old, I guess I should go with pull request 2802 rather than the updated 3652
1325 2014-02-14 10:33:23 <Logicwax> wumpus: so you mean, whenever a TX is checked....no one actually goes back (however far) to the previous TX to check?
1326 2014-02-14 10:33:36 <Logicwax> all the info in the input is included?
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1328 2014-02-14 10:35:00 <shaileshg> I know OP_RETURN can be used to add data to a transaction without the data ever appearing in the UTXO set, as seen in 1a2e22a717d626fc5db363582007c46924ae6b28319f07cb1b907776bd8293fc
1329 2014-02-14 10:35:02 <jouke> There is no difference in the way .9 and .8 use the wallet, so I should be able to load our .9 wallet in .8 client right?
1330 2014-02-14 10:35:17 <shaileshg> However, a note on wikipedia says that this mechanism is not yet a standard transaction type, and thus will not be relayed by nodes on mainnet.
1331 2014-02-14 10:35:29 <wumpus> jouke: yes, certainly
1332 2014-02-14 10:35:39 <shaileshg> can anyone suggest how can i add data to a transaction with it being accepted in blockchain
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1334 2014-02-14 10:36:20 <wumpus> wallets are backward and forward compatible across bitcoin versions (given that the same berkelydb version is used for building both versions)
1335 2014-02-14 10:36:42 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1336 2014-02-14 10:37:03 <wumpus> (also given that you don't do -upgradewallet, which can break older versions with that wallet, but between 0.8 and 0.9 there have been no incompatible wallet changes)
1337 2014-02-14 10:37:28 <lnovy> shaileshg: like this? http://www.thenoteblock.com/notes/89
1338 2014-02-14 10:37:44 <Logicwax> wumpus: so when checking a TX, the software never finds the prevouts back in the blockchain from long ago?
1339 2014-02-14 10:37:50 <wumpus> Logicwax: part of the verification is to go back to the the previous tx'es, but those are handily kept around in the utxo index
1340 2014-02-14 10:38:14 <Logicwax> oh i thought the utxo index was optional
1341 2014-02-14 10:38:35 <wumpus> Logicwax: the utxo is a dynamic set of outputs that haven't been spent yet
1342 2014-02-14 10:39:16 <Logicwax> is that index just an index of pointers to the TXs themselves in the blockchain binary files?   or is it the TXs themselves?
1343 2014-02-14 10:39:56 <shaileshg> lnovy: yes.. but i can't see where the note is in txn https://helloblock.io/mainnet/transactions/9e24e1de1489f88e4b405417aa04e79915cf9467621cba35e6887539df31b0d2
1344 2014-02-14 10:40:27 <wumpus> Logicwax: afaik the UTXO set contains the actual transactions not pointers, but I'm not 100% sure there, use the source if you want to be sure
1345 2014-02-14 10:41:03 <wumpus> Logicwax: it's coins.cpp/h
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1347 2014-02-14 10:41:39 <Logicwax> thanks wumpus
1348 2014-02-14 10:41:55 <Logicwax> that UTXO db must be huge.....for it *is* the actual bitcoins in existence
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1351 2014-02-14 10:42:35 <shaileshg> lnovy: ?
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1355 2014-02-14 10:43:03 <lnovy> shaileshg: the message is encoded in adresses
1356 2014-02-14 10:43:25 <wumpus> Logicwax: it's not that large, remember that it only contains the data about unspent txes, spent ones are thrown out
1357 2014-02-14 10:43:40 <wumpus> fully spent*
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1359 2014-02-14 10:43:59 <lnovy> shaileshg: click on the address, take hash160 and display it in ascii
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1362 2014-02-14 10:44:06 <Logicwax> yeah...but all unspent TXs are really any and all coins that are in existence
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1364 2014-02-14 10:44:25 <lnovy> shaileshg: output adresses of course
1365 2014-02-14 10:44:27 <Logicwax> (as coins dont exist, only a path of TXs from coinbase to UXTO is)
1366 2014-02-14 10:44:34 <shaileshg> hmm
1367 2014-02-14 10:44:41 <shaileshg> lnovy: let me check
1368 2014-02-14 10:45:11 <wumpus> Logicwax: ~/.bitcoin/chainstate is only 370MB here
1369 2014-02-14 10:45:42 <Logicwax> lnovy: sounds like a way to destroy some BTC ;P
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1371 2014-02-14 10:46:00 <lnovy> yep, it's not very creative :)
1372 2014-02-14 10:46:04 <Logicwax> oh wow.  370MB?   that must be pointers than........riiiiight?
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1374 2014-02-14 10:46:21 <Logicwax> heh
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1377 2014-02-14 10:46:53 <Logicwax> so if TXs are *only* verified via the UTXO db and not by going back before those TXs and before those and so on..........then why keep the blockchain around then?
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1379 2014-02-14 10:47:14 <wumpus> Logicwax: to spread the love
1380 2014-02-14 10:47:30 <Logicwax> just prune blocks older than 100 blocks ago off
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1382 2014-02-14 10:47:40 <lnovy> to check other other peoples coins
1383 2014-02-14 10:47:49 <wumpus> when you want to *build* the UTXO set, you need the whole blockchain 
1384 2014-02-14 10:47:54 <Logicwax> why keep all those blocks?  (and here i thought the whole time, that TXs were checked by tracing them all the way back to their coinbase)
1385 2014-02-14 10:47:58 <wumpus> so you might as well keep it around to spread it to others that need it
1386 2014-02-14 10:48:01 <wumpus> that's P2P :)
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1389 2014-02-14 10:48:44 <Logicwax> yeah...but why does everyone need it?  i mean we can all agree on a UTXO set on a certain day at a certain time and the hash of it, and go home happy right?
1390 2014-02-14 10:49:06 <wumpus> because you sometimes need to roll back (for example, in the case of reorganizations)
1391 2014-02-14 10:49:10 <lnovy> utxo keeps all the existing coins? holy fsm now I get why the d***coin's wallet is so big...
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1393 2014-02-14 10:49:20 <Logicwax> yeah....thats why i said like 100 blocks
1394 2014-02-14 10:49:34 <wumpus> Logicwax: but yes you could code a client that do that
1395 2014-02-14 10:49:42 <wumpus> Logicwax: it's be just another security tradeoff
1396 2014-02-14 10:50:02 <wumpus> lnovy: hehe
1397 2014-02-14 10:50:23 <Logicwax> im still impressed that 370MB holds all of the bitcoins that exist
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1399 2014-02-14 10:50:54 <lnovy> alt the coins, not bitcoins :)
1400 2014-02-14 10:51:02 <lnovy> if you get me
1401 2014-02-14 10:51:12 <Logicwax> you mean divisions, yeah
1402 2014-02-14 10:52:26 <Logicwax> any of you know a thing or two about stealth addresses?    I've been asking around for a bit, about why its better to use a separate nonce then the pubkey from the payor
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1404 2014-02-14 10:53:07 <Logicwax> after looking at:  http://imgur.com/rHhNKL6
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1406 2014-02-14 10:53:22 <Logicwax> it looks like using the pubkey from the TX would be fine, and wouldnt decrease security
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1410 2014-02-14 10:56:01 <Logicwax> as a payee....id just take every TX on the network, grind my privkey against the payor's pubkey, now that becomes shared secret.   now add that to my pubkey addr, and check if thats the address the BTC was sent to
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1412 2014-02-14 10:57:21 <shaileshg> lnovy: is there any better way or provision in bitcoin protocol to include some kind of short msg without wasting some bitcoins
1413 2014-02-14 10:58:11 <shaileshg> lnovy: it also works using OP_RETURN
1414 2014-02-14 10:58:32 <shaileshg> does it means if i have OP_RETURN in txn, it will get accepted in mainnet
1415 2014-02-14 10:58:33 <shaileshg> ?
1416 2014-02-14 10:58:51 <lnovy> shaileshg: yes, upcomming OP_RETURN and you can also put same garbage in coinbase transaction
1417 2014-02-14 10:59:28 <lnovy> it wouldn't get relayed, but it should be valid even now
1418 2014-02-14 10:59:30 <shaileshg> lnovy: coinbase txn is the first txn in block.. you mean to say only in coinbase txn or any txn?
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1421 2014-02-14 11:00:05 <shaileshg> lnovy: what does it mean not getting relayed?
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1424 2014-02-14 11:00:54 <lnovy> shaileshg: there is mandatory number of 1 inputs, which is ignored in coinbase transaction
1425 2014-02-14 11:01:07 <Logicwax> yeah, Provably Prune-able Outputs
1426 2014-02-14 11:01:13 <lnovy> shaileshg: don't have time for that bro :)
1427 2014-02-14 11:01:35 <shaileshg> okay. np. pointers to any link i can go through would be gr8
1428 2014-02-14 11:01:39 <shaileshg> :)
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1431 2014-02-14 11:02:35 <lnovy> shaileshg: try pull 2738 and this https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=290
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1433 2014-02-14 11:02:55 <shaileshg> k. thnx lnovy
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1436 2014-02-14 11:05:56 * Logicwax thinks it wont be so funny one day when people realize that their messages sent via thenoteblock.com was destroying $1000s of dollars worth of btc
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1441 2014-02-14 11:08:50 <lnovy> Logicwax: think about that pizza :)
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1491 2014-02-14 11:55:50 <Mallstromm> do we know if the mutating transactions spam attack has stopped for now?
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1506 2014-02-14 12:03:03 <JyZyXEL> seems like a lot of people got bit by this mutating feature
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1512 2014-02-14 12:06:45 <Tecan> what really happens is things get lost in the conversion process on the exchanges
1513 2014-02-14 12:06:55 <Tecan> or something
1514 2014-02-14 12:08:26 <porquilho> venzen_
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1531 2014-02-14 12:31:33 <venzen_> porquilho: hi
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1533 2014-02-14 12:31:53 <porquilho> hey
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1535 2014-02-14 12:32:10 <porquilho> what is your view on btc?
1536 2014-02-14 12:32:41 <venzen_> i'm idling here but quiet now... just a moment
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1539 2014-02-14 12:40:15 <venzen_> porquilho: i'm using a new irc client and it's not setup right so i'll answer here: BTC has all the potential it ever had plus a mainstream adoption phase lies ahead. SO all is looking positive and the team developing this are all competent. I say when this badmood period passes we'll see a strong uptrend in price
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1542 2014-02-14 12:42:24 <delf_> it would help a lot to save the little bit of trust that still exists if there would be any offical statement WHEN a patch will be available. all i hear all the day is "devs are working on it, it's quite simple to patch, will be out soon" ..what does "soon" mean? today? this month? o_O
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1544 2014-02-14 12:43:22 <porquilho> ok venzen_
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1548 2014-02-14 12:44:38 <wumpus> delf_: what exactly do you need a patch for? what problem are you having?
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1550 2014-02-14 12:45:04 <venzen_> delf: what can they do? nothing is broken...
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1554 2014-02-14 12:46:39 <Mallstromm> nothing is broken? What about 0-conf transactions between two parties that trust each other? Now no merchant can accept 0-conf, which kills BTC usability for Point-Of-Sale transactions. If you totally disallow unconfirmed change to be spent then a totally akward thing will happen: a user has 100 BTC, spends 0.1BTC and now he has 99.9 unspendable BTC - that's BROKEN
1555 2014-02-14 12:46:41 <wumpus> well there are certainly things broken, there is a DoS going on and some wallet implementations can be affected, effectively preventing you from spending temporarily... but it certainly doesn't affect everyone
1556 2014-02-14 12:46:44 <delf_> ?? sure it is
1557 2014-02-14 12:47:03 <wumpus> so, again, where do you specifically need a fix for?
1558 2014-02-14 12:47:08 <wumpus> what*
1559 2014-02-14 12:47:37 <Mallstromm> wumpus: I need a fix so I can keep accepting 0-conf transactions to the customers I trust buying cheap items from me
1560 2014-02-14 12:47:39 <wumpus> if the problem is that you can't withdraw from your exchange, you should bug them, not here
1561 2014-02-14 12:47:56 <delf_> ...read the news... o_O https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/
1562 2014-02-14 12:48:06 <lnovy> well I have a plan how to fix that, but have no time for that now...
1563 2014-02-14 12:48:15 <lnovy> i'm busy hodling
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1567 2014-02-14 12:48:36 <iKant> delf_: the trajectory of this conversation is heading towards: You are in the wrong channel
1568 2014-02-14 12:48:46 <delf_> right.
1569 2014-02-14 12:49:16 <wumpus> Mallstromm: so you want to accept 0-conf transactions, and that has gotten even riskier?
1570 2014-02-14 12:49:52 <wumpus> Mallstromm: well in a way it hasn't as long as you only accept 0-conf transactions that build upon transactions that are already in the block chain
1571 2014-02-14 12:49:55 <Mallstromm> wumpus: 0-conf was NOT risky if I trusted the counterparty - now even if I trust the counterparty their transaction might not confirm. Really, downplaying that is simply retarded
1572 2014-02-14 12:50:06 <lnovy> there's no problem in accepting, but issuing transaction while sparing 0-conf change
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1574 2014-02-14 12:50:32 <wumpus> Mallstromm: it's only a problem if there are *chains* of zero-conf transactions
1575 2014-02-14 12:50:38 <venzen_> soem peeople are never satisfied... i've watched the devs sweating their braincells here supporting all manner of custom wallet implementation issues. We have an Open Source Bitcoin and people come stomping their feet here saying they want 0-conf transactions... nice attitude...
1576 2014-02-14 12:50:58 <lnovy> chain of two is enough
1577 2014-02-14 12:51:06 <wumpus> lnovy: yes
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1579 2014-02-14 12:51:16 <wumpus> in any case that is a wallet implementation problem, as mentioned
1580 2014-02-14 12:51:38 <wumpus> again, it's not a an urgent problem with the network
1581 2014-02-14 12:51:38 <Mallstromm> I mean, there was no way somebody was going to try to double spend when buying a coffee. That was empirically true. Now, as a merchant, you just cannot accept 0-conf transactions. I cannot accept BTC in my business as I can't make my customers to wait 10 or more minutes before I give them a coffee
1582 2014-02-14 12:51:38 <lnovy> yes, we will just implement another band-aid
1583 2014-02-14 12:51:54 <Mallstromm> wumpus: if you do not see that as a serious issue, then we are really not on the same page
1584 2014-02-14 12:51:59 <wumpus> Mallstromm: this does *not* make actual double spending easier
1585 2014-02-14 12:52:20 <lnovy> I see there are you going
1586 2014-02-14 12:52:29 <Mallstromm> wumpus: I UNDERSTAND THAT. but still, a fact remains: I cannot accept 0-conf transactions in my business, and thus I CANNOT ACCEPT BITCOIN. Is that clear?
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1588 2014-02-14 12:52:32 <torokun> Mallstromm: bitcoin was never ideal for instantaneous transactions
1589 2014-02-14 12:52:37 <wumpus> Mallstromm: and why are you not helping? why are you stupidly trolling in the IRC channel with your arms in the air?
1590 2014-02-14 12:52:55 <wumpus> Mallstromm: wasting our time
1591 2014-02-14 12:52:59 <torokun> the real expectation is that a transaction should be in a block to be confirmed.
1592 2014-02-14 12:53:03 <Mallstromm> wumpus: trolling? wasting your time?
1593 2014-02-14 12:53:17 <lnovy> I thought the 0-conf problem is mainly applicable to high speed wallets and "practically ony 1 coin in it" wallet
1594 2014-02-14 12:53:23 <torokun> that's how it was designed...
1595 2014-02-14 12:53:26 <wumpus> lnovy: yes, it is
1596 2014-02-14 12:54:59 <delf_> well...whatever.... can anyone tell if PR #3657 on git master is the solution for the 0-conf issues?
1597 2014-02-14 12:55:02 <Mallstromm> torokun: cool. Then I can't accept bitcoin in my business. I cannot trust the transactions broadcasted by the customer I TRUST. Marvellous. And let's be canonical, so we all need to wait 6 confirmations when buying something. That will play wonderfully well in brick-and-mortar businesses
1598 2014-02-14 12:55:03 <lnovy> I might not see how the *risk* of getting not payed has changed... basically you were not accepting 0-conf because you trusted the network to mine it, you trusted your customer
1599 2014-02-14 12:55:08 <lnovy> this is the same now
1600 2014-02-14 12:55:19 <iKant> As has been said before. There is a need to distinguish between bitcoins and the bitcoin (payment) network.
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1604 2014-02-14 12:56:23 <Mallstromm> lnovy: no its not the same. Till now it was 100% safe to accept unconfirmed transactions broadcasted by honest users. Now its not anymore, there's no more POS usability for BTC
1605 2014-02-14 12:56:24 <lnovy> delf_: it is a temporary fix that makes sure you chained coins won't get stucked, but I wouldn't call it a solution...
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1607 2014-02-14 12:56:40 <wumpus> it was *NEVER* 100% safe to accept unconfirmed tranactions, never
1608 2014-02-14 12:56:49 <wumpus> don't spread misinfo here
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1610 2014-02-14 12:57:12 <wumpus> you don't have a guarantee that miners will mine the transaction
1611 2014-02-14 12:57:24 <lnovy> Mallstromm: how is that so? how could you be sure, that it was actually broadcasted to the real network?
1612 2014-02-14 12:57:26 <delf_> Inovy: ah, thx for the info :)
1613 2014-02-14 12:58:24 <Mallstromm> wumpus: yes you had if the transaction had the proper fee and you had the guarantee that the user was honest
1614 2014-02-14 12:59:09 <lnovy> delf_: we can further improve it by resigning the dependant transaction when a new block is mined with mutated parent I think, in some time the attacker will stop doing this as it would be boring...
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1616 2014-02-14 13:00:13 * porquilho live fight on econometrics channel, porquilho vs moriaty (last round porquilho owned him) but he is back for some more
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1618 2014-02-14 13:00:24 <Mallstromm> if you want to get picky, its NEVER 100% safe to accept a transaction... Regardless of the confirmations. Because there's alway a chance for a miner with enough hashing power to reverse the confirmation. You cannot discard the fact that some miner could reach 99.9% of hashing power, right? So don't get picky on me. 0-conf were absolutely safe, they are not anymore. That kills POS usability
1619 2014-02-14 13:01:18 Tray_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1620 2014-02-14 13:01:21 <torokun> 0conf transactions are not "unsafe"
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1622 2014-02-14 13:01:55 <lnovy> man current BRIX is over 680 milion USD and it was over bilion yesterday... that is for just half of a network... this guy won't be reversing your transaction :)
1623 2014-02-14 13:02:00 <torokun> it's just possible that there could be a double spend that could nix them and that's always been the case
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1625 2014-02-14 13:02:22 <wumpus> 0-conf only works if you have a commitment from the user that he/she will do everything to get you an confirmed transaction eventually
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1627 2014-02-14 13:03:17 <Apocalyptic> " 0-conf were absolutely safe" wtf am i reading
1628 2014-02-14 13:04:26 <lnovy> I think 0-conf transactions are overused for things that they are totaly non-fiting
1629 2014-02-14 13:05:12 <oleganza> lnovy: fancy contracts like rapidly-adjusted micropayments are relying on unconfirmed tx IDs. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_7:_Rapidly-adjusted_.28micro.29payments_to_a_pre-determined_party
1630 2014-02-14 13:05:26 <lnovy> 0-conf transaction is something very volatile and very cheap to mangle with
1631 2014-02-14 13:05:28 <wumpus> Apocalyptic: as I said before, if there is any good in this it's that people learn a lot more about bitcoin's workings
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1633 2014-02-14 13:05:35 <Apocalyptic> well for micropayment that's fine
1634 2014-02-14 13:05:43 <Apocalyptic> cause you can potentially eat a loss
1635 2014-02-14 13:06:00 <oleganza> you cannot easily make a blind "refund" tx based on a hash of an unrevealed (=> unconfirmed) "lock" transaction
1636 2014-02-14 13:06:11 <oleganza> one way to fix it is something like that: http://oleganza.com/bitcoin-epita-2014.pdf
1637 2014-02-14 13:06:21 <wumpus> Apocalyptic: sure, you can take 0-tx transactions and potentialy eat the loss, that hasn't changed
1638 2014-02-14 13:06:29 <epscy> bitcoin is terrible for POS anyway
1639 2014-02-14 13:06:29 <oleganza> when both parties lock some amount, make a broadcast and then make a refund
1640 2014-02-14 13:06:35 <epscy> it's internet money
1641 2014-02-14 13:06:36 <lnovy> oleganza: I will look into that
1642 2014-02-14 13:06:53 <epscy> why do people keep trying to make it do things that IRL money already does well?
1643 2014-02-14 13:07:45 <roybadami> epscy: Credit cards at POS are expensive (more so for small businesses than large) so there is definitely an advantage for Bitcoin there if it can be made to work well
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1645 2014-02-14 13:07:59 <venzen_> +epscy: exactly - they even say it: "For everything else (0-conf) there's Mastercard"
1646 2014-02-14 13:08:50 <epscy> roybadami: the problem there is customers love credit cards, some people think merchants are more influential than customers, i am not sure i agree with that
1647 2014-02-14 13:08:55 <epscy> anyway off topic
1648 2014-02-14 13:09:04 <wumpus> epscy: that's more of a #bitcoin discussion
1649 2014-02-14 13:09:05 <wumpus> right
1650 2014-02-14 13:09:33 <wumpus> ideas to use bitcoin for POS are very welcome here, you should just be aware of the limitations and dangers of 0-conf transactions
1651 2014-02-14 13:10:11 <oleganza> here's an idea: a distributed clearing mesh (vs "clearing house") that transfers IOUs in BTC back and forth between pairs of anonymous nodes
1652 2014-02-14 13:10:19 <oleganza> so you can pay for a coffee in seconds.
1653 2014-02-14 13:10:20 <roybadami> Right now bricks and mortar businesses that accept XBT get a publicity boost just the same as Internet businesses.  I pay by XBT at a couple of the pubs run by Individual Pubs and it seems to work reasonably well these days....
1654 2014-02-14 13:10:45 <epscy> sure, i just think it's very rare for people to do things over the internet that can't put up with a 30 minute wait to see if it confirms
1655 2014-02-14 13:10:47 <oleganza> difference from Ripple is that every IOU is mutually ensured by a bigger amount of BTC locked up in blockchain
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1657 2014-02-14 13:11:27 <oleganza> and when the debt goes above the threshold (defined by amount of collateral locked up), then a real BTC tx is made by the debtor to clear the debt
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1663 2014-02-14 13:14:53 <lnovy> oleganza: I think this would be just little bit difficult with possible aborts and restarts, but even here malleability itself won't cause anything to be stolen by anybody...
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1666 2014-02-14 13:16:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, can a scriptSig be zero-length?
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1671 2014-02-14 13:18:44 <oleganza> lnovy: in the currently suggested rapidly-adjusted micropayments scheme (RAM) user will have their money locked at the mercy of the service provider with no recourse.
1672 2014-02-14 13:19:01 <oleganza> if service provider modifies their tx and broadcasts it
1673 2014-02-14 13:19:16 <oleganza> so the refund tx would be useless
1674 2014-02-14 13:19:48 <oleganza> if tx is not malleable, then the protocol works perfectly
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1677 2014-02-14 13:21:11 <oleganza> one way to improve it is to require service provider to lock up some of their money too.
1678 2014-02-14 13:21:17 <oleganza> but that's not as elegant as before
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1681 2014-02-14 13:23:02 <venzen_>  oleganza: you mention not having TM would mean the protocols works perfectly...
1682 2014-02-14 13:23:16 <venzen_> so as written at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_Malleability
1683 2014-02-14 13:23:37 <oleganza> just in case, i meant micropayments protocol
1684 2014-02-14 13:23:38 <venzen_> the malleability is required in order for later extentions to the protocol?
1685 2014-02-14 13:23:48 <venzen_> i see
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1687 2014-02-14 13:24:42 <oleganza> venzen_ "the malleability is required in order for later extentions to the protocol" - what do you mean?
1688 2014-02-14 13:25:21 <venzen_>  oleganza: i'm reading that at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_Malleability - where the doc talks about scriptSig Malleability
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1690 2014-02-14 13:25:49 <venzen_> and how "Preventing scriptSig malleability is being considered as well"
1691 2014-02-14 13:25:50 <oleganza> ah, yes
1692 2014-02-14 13:25:56 <wumpus> venzen_: yes but only if the sender of the transaction chooses to allow it
1693 2014-02-14 13:26:04 <venzen_> hhmm
1694 2014-02-14 13:26:37 <wumpus> venzen_: malleability in normal transactions only causes confusion and will be removed
1695 2014-02-14 13:26:54 <oleganza> ok, just to clarify:
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1697 2014-02-14 13:27:07 <oleganza> input scripts are stripped off when hash of tx is computed for signature
1698 2014-02-14 13:27:22 <oleganza> so you can append 0x01 OP_DROP to any input script and it'll work fine
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1700 2014-02-14 13:27:48 <oleganza> right now isStandard check is a soft prohibition of such extensions
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1702 2014-02-14 13:28:12 <venzen_> understood and it says so in the doc with regards to simplifying the stack
1703 2014-02-14 13:28:19 <oleganza> but for more complex scripts, we cannot afford figuring out what is the "minimal correct input script" should be to prevent malleability
1704 2014-02-14 13:28:28 <oleganza> so
1705 2014-02-14 13:29:00 <oleganza> normalized ID is an idea to compute such "hash for signature" for the index = 0 and replacing all input scripts with empty script
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1707 2014-02-14 13:29:15 <lnovy> oleganza: i don't thing this is solvable as of now in this use-case.
1708 2014-02-14 13:29:22 <oleganza> that normalized ID right now is optional
1709 2014-02-14 13:29:24 <lnovy> (rapid micropayments)
1710 2014-02-14 13:29:34 <oleganza> lnovy: my thought too
1711 2014-02-14 13:29:40 <venzen_> thanks for expplaining
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1713 2014-02-14 13:30:20 <oleganza> lnovy: however, if counterparty locks up equivalent amount of cash, then they are in the equal position vis-a-vis their client
1714 2014-02-14 13:30:26 <oleganza> so less risk for the user
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1716 2014-02-14 13:30:47 <wumpus> oleganza: I'm not sure if there is any case in which a more complex scriptSig is desirable
1717 2014-02-14 13:31:09 <oleganza> wumpus: for any more complex scriptPubKey you'd need more complex scriptSig
1718 2014-02-14 13:31:22 <oleganza> BTW, I personally detest and avoid using "scriptPubKey" and "scriptSig" names
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1720 2014-02-14 13:31:42 <oleganza> input script and output script is 100500% more clear
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1722 2014-02-14 13:32:21 <lnovy> oleganza: if this is a internet provider, you have no way to be sure the counter-locking occured, maybe through tor, but that is somewhat cyclic...
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1725 2014-02-14 13:32:36 <oleganza> lnovy: ?
1726 2014-02-14 13:32:51 <oleganza> i can be sure because locking tx is signed by both parties and they sign all inputs and all outputs
1727 2014-02-14 13:33:01 <oleganza> so i can see that they put the same $100 as me.
1728 2014-02-14 13:33:22 <oleganza> and when lock tx becomes confirmed, it's a proof that they really locked up $100 too
1729 2014-02-14 13:33:39 <lnovy> oleganza: he can pay this from fake transaction change with 0-confirmation...
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1735 2014-02-14 13:33:58 <oleganza> he can, but we don't start business until lock tx is confirmed
1736 2014-02-14 13:34:04 <oleganza> so i don't care what money he puts in
1737 2014-02-14 13:34:04 <lnovy> which when finaly reaching internet is already doublespend
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1740 2014-02-14 13:34:53 <oleganza> if we are talking about wifi station, i assume it gives some limited amount of internet conn to get blockchain confirmation
1741 2014-02-14 13:34:59 <oleganza> aha
1742 2014-02-14 13:35:06 <oleganza> no, there's no problem really
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1744 2014-02-14 13:35:14 <oleganza> because if the ISP puts in bogus input
1745 2014-02-14 13:35:16 yubrew has joined
1746 2014-02-14 13:35:19 <oleganza> then the lock tx is never valid
1747 2014-02-14 13:35:25 <lnovy> again, if this is your only ISP, how can you be sure that coin inputing the locked amount will not be already doublespent in real internet...
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1749 2014-02-14 13:35:31 <oleganza> and his revenue coming from that lock tx is also never valid
1750 2014-02-14 13:35:39 <oleganza> so it's ISP's problem, not mine
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1752 2014-02-14 13:36:08 <lnovy> aaa, you mean on transaction is locked, not two vice-versa
1753 2014-02-14 13:36:11 <lnovy> makes sense
1754 2014-02-14 13:36:12 <oleganza> i myself is sure to increase his share on the output only *after* he gave me a bit of a service.
1755 2014-02-14 13:36:52 <lnovy> i was thinking about two locked amounts in two separate transactions
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1758 2014-02-14 13:37:18 <jeremias> <
1759 2014-02-14 13:37:48 <oleganza> so the only thing that needs to be changed in RAM scheme is:
1760 2014-02-14 13:37:48 <oleganza> 1) lock tx also includes the same amount from the service provider
1761 2014-02-14 13:37:49 <oleganza> 2) timelocked refund tx is signed *after* lock tx is confirmed (to protect against malleability)
1762 2014-02-14 13:37:50 <oleganza> 3) in "adjusted" payment tx, service provider gets his locked money back
1763 2014-02-14 13:38:09 porquilho has joined
1764 2014-02-14 13:38:14 <oleganza> (hehe, "only thing" being 3 things)
1765 2014-02-14 13:38:24 _ImI_ has joined
1766 2014-02-14 13:39:15 <lnovy> and one needs to wait for confirmation in the begining, adding average 4 minutes before the business can start...
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1771 2014-02-14 13:39:52 <lnovy> I'm not sure if this wasn't reasonable even before
1772 2014-02-14 13:39:56 <lnovy> might be...
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1775 2014-02-14 13:41:13 <oleganza> lnovy: yeah...
1776 2014-02-14 13:41:47 <oleganza> lnovy: bitcoin promise is broken. I'll go panic sell.
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1778 2014-02-14 13:42:21 <oleganza> i think it's more reasonable to get malleability fixed once and for all by transitioning to a "normalized" hash used in merkle trees and tx inputs
1779 2014-02-14 13:42:24 RBRubicon has joined
1780 2014-02-14 13:42:27 <lnovy> i will just hodl more :)
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1783 2014-02-14 13:43:02 <topace_> gmaxwell: zapwallettx seems to have worked (it took 6 hours to run, instead of a normal rescan that only takes 1 hour)
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1785 2014-02-14 13:43:07 <lnovy> the hash is not everything... script is the real pain imho
1786 2014-02-14 13:43:11 <topace_> but the corrupt transaction no longer shows in list transactions
1787 2014-02-14 13:43:30 <oleganza> lnovy: ?
1788 2014-02-14 13:43:32 <topace_> and gettranaction says it doesn't exist or is invalid
1789 2014-02-14 13:43:39 <topace_> and the balance is back to what it should be
1790 2014-02-14 13:43:52 <lnovy> oleganza: changing push for push2 etc.
1791 2014-02-14 13:43:59 <lnovy> ect
1792 2014-02-14 13:43:59 <Xman> #bitcoin
1793 2014-02-14 13:44:01 <oleganza> "normalized id" strips all input scripts, so there's no problem
1794 2014-02-14 13:44:31 <lnovy> then if you have single OR in that, there is a problem no?
1795 2014-02-14 13:44:42 <oleganza> where ?
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1797 2014-02-14 13:45:09 <lnovy> i think maxwell has stated something like that in thet pull comment
1798 2014-02-14 13:45:11 <lnovy> w8
1799 2014-02-14 13:45:12 <oleganza> input scripts are data-only (they can have operators, but those could be statically reduced to data-only because input script is always prepended to output script)
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1801 2014-02-14 13:45:31 <oleganza> lnovy: ah, i guess i understand
1802 2014-02-14 13:45:51 <oleganza> lnovy: pls send me a link to that pull req
1803 2014-02-14 13:46:59 <lnovy> oleganza: that seems to be something with the view of the sender/signer https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3656#issuecomment-34845855
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1806 2014-02-14 13:48:32 <oleganza> i see
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1808 2014-02-14 13:49:24 <lnovy> i'm not really into the script yet, but if it is possible to reduce it to some canonical form, something like a reduction in functional programing
1809 2014-02-14 13:50:10 <oleganza> i think gmaxwell is making too much of the external meaning
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1811 2014-02-14 13:50:19 <oleganza> with example of 1 of {A,B}
1812 2014-02-14 13:51:02 <oleganza> because for real security of a contract only thing is important: is tx valid or not. If it's valid, who cares how exactly it was made valid
1813 2014-02-14 13:51:09 <lnovy> we can keep the freedom of not having exactly enumerated transaction types and still fight malleability
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1816 2014-02-14 13:52:15 <oleganza> lnovy: if I sign off 1-of-2 tx and you, as a joke, change it with your signature instead, it does not really make any difference - practically it will still be the same tx that I accepted
1817 2014-02-14 13:53:20 <oleganza> gmaxwell mentioned external factors like "legal implications", but it's really irrelevant if the contract scheme insures *actual* security, not fake "law-enforced" security
1818 2014-02-14 13:53:53 <oleganza> if prev tx said "can be spent by either party", then *either* signature is equally valid for all intents and purposes
1819 2014-02-14 13:54:26 <lnovy> the core problem here is that it is possible to point on things that are not yet set in stone.
1820 2014-02-14 13:54:39 <oleganza> regarding ANYONECANPAY, when more people join tx, number of inputs will change
1821 2014-02-14 13:54:45 <oleganza> so normalized id will be different
1822 2014-02-14 13:55:48 <oleganza> lnovy: yeah, i have to think more about all that
1823 2014-02-14 13:56:27 <oleganza> another option is to replace signatures with indexed placeholders
1824 2014-02-14 13:56:46 <oleganza> and keep signatures in the "attachment"
1825 2014-02-14 13:56:59 <oleganza> so we don't have to clear all inputs at all
1826 2014-02-14 13:57:07 <oleganza> * input scripts i mean
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1828 2014-02-14 13:58:30 <oleganza> merkle trees and tx hashes will be the same. Signatures must be canonical. SignatureHash will override signature attachment with zeros, so its size can't be played with.
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1830 2014-02-14 13:59:33 <oleganza> so instead of "<signature> <pubkey>" we'll have "<0> <pubkey>" and CHECKSIG will have one level of indirection to get signature at index 0 in the "attachment"
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1832 2014-02-14 14:00:06 <lnovy> it might be possible to solve this by pointing not at your direct parent but to some deeper generation already like 6 blocks in the blockchain and than you would walk the the tree down adding public keys parts of the transactions, relevant index and hashing that in every step down
1833 2014-02-14 14:00:20 <lnovy> (that was just a wild shot)
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1838 2014-02-14 14:01:16 <oleganza> lnovy: don't see how it helps when you tweak the unconfirmed tx. Confirmed parents will be the same, unconfirmed leaf will change
1839 2014-02-14 14:01:28 <anddam> does Gavin hang around here?
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1841 2014-02-14 14:02:15 <lnovy> oleganza: the way that out inputs will be invariant even then malleation occurs later
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1843 2014-02-14 14:02:48 <oleganza> lnovy: i don't get the idea
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1845 2014-02-14 14:03:08 <oleganza> lnovy: first, do you propose to keep SignatureHash() as is - stripping input scripts
1846 2014-02-14 14:03:10 <oleganza> ?
1847 2014-02-14 14:03:22 <oleganza> and changing how tx hash is computed
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1849 2014-02-14 14:04:30 <lnovy> oleganza: instead of your input pointing at txid:n you would be pointing at txid of transaction 3 blocks deep in the chain, describining the path you are cousing
1850 2014-02-14 14:04:34 <lnovy> choosing
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1852 2014-02-14 14:05:20 <oleganza> lnovy: how does it help when the pointing tx is pointing to an unconfirmed one which can change?
1853 2014-02-14 14:05:36 <oleganza> afaics, parents and path will be the same up to the leaf
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1855 2014-02-14 14:06:50 <lnovy> if you are chaining using your 0-conf change, it is now easy to break your chain cutting the rest at least to another block
1856 2014-02-14 14:07:20 <lnovy> and you would need to resign...
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1860 2014-02-14 14:08:50 <lnovy> from the data that is signed a pointer back is the vector of attack, if the attacker make it pointing to invalid txid, chain is broken
1861 2014-02-14 14:10:05 <lnovy> i would reverse that for these chains, keeping normally pointing backward but when I would need to, I could describe the path forward from some set in stone ancestor
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1866 2014-02-14 14:14:30 <orion> Hi. I am on FreeBSD 10.0-RELEASE and am getting this error repeatedly when trying to download the block chain: http://i.imgur.com/JoRxifp.png
1867 2014-02-14 14:14:38 <orion> And then bitcoin-qt terminates.
1868 2014-02-14 14:14:49 tlweb has joined
1869 2014-02-14 14:14:57 <orion> I am running v0.8.6.0-g03a7d67-beta.
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1872 2014-02-14 14:15:47 <lnovy> does your openssl have needed cryptos?
1873 2014-02-14 14:16:35 <lnovy> i think i saw similar one on RHEL/Fedora... and there are no ECs in their openssl
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1880 2014-02-14 14:21:07 <oleganza> i have a brilliant idea
1881 2014-02-14 14:21:30 <oleganza> before gavin and co forbid non-normalized pushdata in isStandard check
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1885 2014-02-14 14:23:08 <oleganza> user wallets should be able to vote too
1886 2014-02-14 14:23:11 <oleganza> miners have coinbase
1887 2014-02-14 14:23:25 <oleganza> users only have transactions and harsh isStandard limitations
1888 2014-02-14 14:23:32 <oleganza> but pushdata size is not there yet
1889 2014-02-14 14:23:32 Tray_ has joined
1890 2014-02-14 14:23:41 <orion> lnovy: ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384:ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-SHA384:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-SHA:SRP-DSS-AES-256-CBC-SHA [...]
1891 2014-02-14 14:23:53 <orion> Is that what you were referring to?>
1892 2014-02-14 14:23:57 <oleganza> so if we suggest new tx version, users can vote by (say) using PUSHDATA4
1893 2014-02-14 14:24:00 agricocb has joined
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1895 2014-02-14 14:24:13 <lnovy> orion: i'm sorry you would have to ask somebody else, i don't remember those
1896 2014-02-14 14:24:22 <orion> ok
1897 2014-02-14 14:25:19 <lnovy> oleganza: this is yet over my mind...
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1899 2014-02-14 14:26:58 <lnovy> oleganza: the main problem (current issue) with malleability is that attacker can double spend for you but only with the same overall effect and therefore chained transactions are now pointing their inputs to an invalid transaction
1900 2014-02-14 14:27:17 <lnovy> this is only possible because they are pointing at a transaction not yet in block
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1903 2014-02-14 14:28:47 <lnovy> i would make it possible for all of the chain members to point to a confirmed transaction when this transaction is their common ancestor and they can discribe the path from it to them  (or prove prove the knowlege of the path)...
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1906 2014-02-14 14:29:51 <lnovy> attacker can then malleate as hi wishes, but he won't be able to break the chain
1907 2014-02-14 14:30:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|oleganza: Er, what?
1908 2014-02-14 14:30:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The thing is, you can't enforce a vote per user
1909 2014-02-14 14:30:39 <oleganza> michagogo|cloud: I suggest voting per transaction
1910 2014-02-14 14:30:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Transactions are easy and cheap to spam
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1912 2014-02-14 14:31:09 <oleganza> michagogo|cloud: only confirmed txs count
1913 2014-02-14 14:31:19 <oleganza> michagogo|cloud: so you'd have to pay for spam a lot
1914 2014-02-14 14:31:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So in other words, miners vote.
1915 2014-02-14 14:32:00 <oleganza> michagogo|cloud: on a side note, miners wouldn't vote for something not supported by majority of people - otherwise miners would mine something for no one
1916 2014-02-14 14:32:01 <lnovy> this common ancestor must be an unspend coin and therefor you would need to rehash and rebroadcast only that part of the chain that didn't made it to the block after recieving it
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1918 2014-02-14 14:32:33 <oleganza> michagogo|cloud: but your point is valid
1919 2014-02-14 14:32:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|oleganza: Transaction-based voting is impossible
1920 2014-02-14 14:33:06 <oleganza> michagogo|cloud: i guess i understand why, but could you please elaborate? in case i miss something
1921 2014-02-14 14:33:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Sorry, g2g
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1923 2014-02-14 14:33:58 <andytoshi> oleganza: this is basic stuff, read bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf then go ask on #bitcoin please
1924 2014-02-14 14:34:15 <oleganza> andytoshi: thanks, i've read that already
1925 2014-02-14 14:34:45 <lnovy> i don't find the voting benefitial here, miners are voting even now when they are choosing which transaction to put in, they are allowed to put even some nonstandards there and this is actually the way it should be
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1928 2014-02-14 14:35:10 <oleganza> i mean, if miners are not sure how many users will support brand-new transactions v2, how can they know?
1929 2014-02-14 14:35:31 <oleganza> one way (probably, broken) is to have wallets vote by marking their txs in some special way
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1931 2014-02-14 14:36:04 <lnovy> oleganza: try to thing about the proven common ancestor + proof of the path usage instead of txid:n
1932 2014-02-14 14:36:06 <oleganza> miners really willing to know how many people support v2, will not discriminate txs, but monitor how many of them are marked
1933 2014-02-14 14:36:43 <oleganza> lnovy: i'll try, but i don't get how it fixes problem with micropayments scheme
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1935 2014-02-14 14:36:53 <lnovy> miners are the ones making the rules and their are motivated to make good rules only by mining profit and fees
1936 2014-02-14 14:37:26 <lnovy> oleganza: it fixes malleability
1937 2014-02-14 14:37:56 <lnovy> making it a future-proof non-issue
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1939 2014-02-14 14:39:43 <lnovy> and can be used as a invariant identifier of unconfirmed transations too
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1941 2014-02-14 14:40:24 <lnovy> and it would be only three times longer than current txid :D
1942 2014-02-14 14:40:59 <torokun> I plan to read more about the transaction format now, but can someone explain simply why the design of the transaction data structure couldn't avoid this malleability problem by basically providing a signature for the entire transaction?
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1944 2014-02-14 14:41:05 <lnovy> you could also use txid after you are sure the transaction made it to the chain
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1949 2014-02-14 14:43:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|torokun: A cryptographic signature cannot sign itself.
1950 2014-02-14 14:43:52 <lnovy> I think if was never planed for a _need_ to do 0-conf chains or the need of having invarint pointer to unconfirmed transaction
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1952 2014-02-14 14:44:10 <torokun> no, but a private key can sign a whole transaction record
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1955 2014-02-14 14:44:16 <lnovy> that should not be an issue
1956 2014-02-14 14:44:28 <torokun> and append the signature to the beginning or end
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1958 2014-02-14 14:44:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|torokun: OP_CHECKSIG signs everything except the signature
1959 2014-02-14 14:44:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(The scriptSig, that is)
1960 2014-02-14 14:45:49 <torokun> michagogo|cloud: if that's true, then how can any signed part of the transaction be changed and still match the signature?
1961 2014-02-14 14:47:04 <lnovy> just change the things that are not covered by it
1962 2014-02-14 14:47:58 <oleganza> lnovy: you have to make full script runtime analysis to figure out which pushdata is signature and which is not
1963 2014-02-14 14:48:00 <oleganza> too complicated
1964 2014-02-14 14:48:19 <oleganza> i suggest simply moving signatures out of the script and leaving short indexes pointing to a signature
1965 2014-02-14 14:48:23 <oleganza> and not stripping input scripts
1966 2014-02-14 14:48:26 <torokun> he said it signs everything except the signature...
1967 2014-02-14 14:48:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|torokun: everything except the scriptSig
1968 2014-02-14 14:48:49 <oleganza> torokun: you may have multiple signatures and complex IF/ELSE conditions
1969 2014-02-14 14:49:01 <oleganza> scriptSig != signature, it's a bunch of different data
1970 2014-02-14 14:49:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|oleganza: yes,  that would be a good way to do it
1971 2014-02-14 14:49:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Now, go back to 2009 and suggest it to Satoshi
1972 2014-02-14 14:50:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Making the change now is impossible -- it'd be a hard fork
1973 2014-02-14 14:50:03 <torokun> oleganza: re indexes...  I was thinking the same thing, although I don't know too much about the format really
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1976 2014-02-14 14:50:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|torokun: ^^
1977 2014-02-14 14:50:32 <torokun> right. but might be a better design?
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1981 2014-02-14 14:51:44 <torokun> in my simplistic thinking you just treat the whole txn as a block and sign it and append a signature, then the client treats a known token in the script as referring to the appended signature
1982 2014-02-14 14:52:30 <oleganza> torokun: michagogo|cloud: lnovy: http://blog.oleganza.com/post/76632095311/suggestion-how-to-fix-transaction-malleability
1983 2014-02-14 14:52:44 <oleganza> kind of informal BIP
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1997 2014-02-14 14:58:13 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: that breaks in a number of ways
1998 2014-02-14 14:58:46 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: how?
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2004 2014-02-14 15:00:26 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: it seems to assume the scriptSig only uses the ECDSA CHECK[MULTI]SIG opcodes, and doesn't address other possible scripts (not sure this is a problem or not yet)
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2007 2014-02-14 15:00:52 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: but the biggest part is that this would be a hardfork, and you're suggesting treating it as a softfork with a "miner vote"
2008 2014-02-14 15:01:06 <oleganza> if we introduce LAMPORT_CHECKSIG later, it'll find its signature indirectly, like CHECKSIG
2009 2014-02-14 15:01:26 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: what if we implement Lamport with the existing opcodes?
2010 2014-02-14 15:01:26 <oleganza> i don't say it's a soft fork
2011 2014-02-14 15:01:33 <oleganza> we need user software to support tx v2
2012 2014-02-14 15:01:43 <oleganza> i don't yet know how user software can vote
2013 2014-02-14 15:01:46 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: there is no way to get a "vote" on user software
2014 2014-02-14 15:01:50 <Luke-Jr> right ;)
2015 2014-02-14 15:02:13 <Luke-Jr> if it were possible, we wouldn't need a blockchain
2016 2014-02-14 15:02:21 <oleganza> yup
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2018 2014-02-14 15:03:08 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: how do you implement lamport with existing opcodes if you can't have "hash of current tx" ?
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2020 2014-02-14 15:03:31 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: we can generalize my idea: by allowing any pushdata to be "indirect"
2021 2014-02-14 15:03:56 <oleganza> if you introduce "OP_TXHASH" opcode to do lamport sigs in opcode
2022 2014-02-14 15:03:59 <oleganza> *in opcodes
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2026 2014-02-14 15:04:24 <oleganza> and user will decide which data they have to "strip" to make signatures work
2027 2014-02-14 15:04:57 <torokun> oleganza: sorry, what do you mean by stripping data?
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2029 2014-02-14 15:05:30 <oleganza> torokun: signatures must be stripped from input scripts to verify themselves
2030 2014-02-14 15:05:35 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
2031 2014-02-14 15:05:37 <oleganza> today we strip all input scripts
2032 2014-02-14 15:05:51 <oleganza> i suggest we don't, but put signatures in a separate storage (which is stripped)
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2034 2014-02-14 15:06:05 <oleganza> Luke-Jr suggests that some other data in input script may be needed to be stripped in the future
2035 2014-02-14 15:06:17 <torokun> right
2036 2014-02-14 15:06:25 <oleganza> so i suggested to allow not only CHECKSIG arguments to be indirect, but any pushdata to be indirect (optionally)
2037 2014-02-14 15:06:33 <torokun> IMHO that would have been the right solution from the befinning
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2040 2014-02-14 15:06:44 <oleganza> so you can say "i want to push this data, but so it's stripped for signing purposes"
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2043 2014-02-14 15:07:55 <torokun> no, I don't think you want nonsig data to be doable that way because then it would be mutable right?
2044 2014-02-14 15:08:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Again, all this is great, but can't be done in Bitcoin until someone comes up with a way to communicate with Satoshi back in 2008
2045 2014-02-14 15:08:17 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: I suppose that could work reasonably then, but then there's the whole "false sense of security" thing
2046 2014-02-14 15:08:30 <torokun> could be done in an altcoin
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2048 2014-02-14 15:08:41 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: explain?
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2051 2014-02-14 15:08:56 <oleganza> what's false about security here?
2052 2014-02-14 15:09:00 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: transaction malleability is only a real problem if people are doing insecure things in the first place
2053 2014-02-14 15:09:18 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_7:_Rapidly-adjusted_.28micro.29payments_to_a_pre-determined_party
2054 2014-02-14 15:09:35 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: here the scheme relies on non-malleable transaction to ensure refund
2055 2014-02-14 15:09:41 samson_ has joined
2056 2014-02-14 15:09:45 <oleganza> and it would work perfectly if tx wasn't malleable
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2058 2014-02-14 15:10:25 <torokun> what exactly are people changing in these transactions?
2059 2014-02-14 15:10:26 <oleganza> it's insecure only due to malleability
2060 2014-02-14 15:10:39 <torokun> to get a different txid?
2061 2014-02-14 15:10:47 <oleganza> torokun: service provider may change T1 rendering refund T2 invalid
2062 2014-02-14 15:10:56 <lnovy> there... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3656#issuecomment-35091518
2063 2014-02-14 15:10:58 <oleganza> and your money will be locked at the mercy of service provider
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2065 2014-02-14 15:11:12 <lnovy> I will kill this crap eventually...
2066 2014-02-14 15:11:25 <torokun> no, I mean what data in the transaction record can be changed ?
2067 2014-02-14 15:12:10 <oleganza> torokun: are you asking how tx is malleable?
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2070 2014-02-14 15:12:40 <torokun> what portions of a transaction record are malleable
2071 2014-02-14 15:12:42 <lnovy> and if there is no colition in the blockchain now, I will make sure to make one...
2072 2014-02-14 15:13:05 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: I see, you have a point there.
2073 2014-02-14 15:13:34 <oleganza> torokun: http://www.righto.com/2014/02/bitcoin-transaction-malleability.html
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2075 2014-02-14 15:13:54 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: and isStandard is not enough fix
2076 2014-02-14 15:14:20 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: because for some complex scheme with non-standard scripts the inputs will be non-standard too and making sure they are "canonical" might be way to complicated
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2080 2014-02-14 15:15:34 <oleganza> i think about isStandard as just a "damage containment" measure. So that 95% of boring transactions are all the same and do not break non-robust clients
2081 2014-02-14 15:16:14 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: so what are thought about "strippable" pushdata?
2082 2014-02-14 15:16:43 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: we may have an opcode acting as a prefix before pushdata or OP_<N>
2083 2014-02-14 15:17:11 <oleganza> e.g. OP_INDIRECT. Saying "next data will be an index of data in the separate container".
2084 2014-02-14 15:17:15 <torokun> ok, thanks for that link
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2086 2014-02-14 15:18:04 <oleganza> so "<signature> <pubkey>" will become "OP_INDIRECT OP_0 <pubkey>" and signature itself will be stored under index 0 in the tail of tx.
2087 2014-02-14 15:18:25 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: the biggest issue is that fixing this use case (no matter how it's done) requires a hardfork
2088 2014-02-14 15:18:33 <torokun> so it seems that the contents of the script (instructions and arguments) are not part of the signed data?
2089 2014-02-14 15:19:02 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: for a stack-based language, "OP_0 OP_INDIRECT <pubkey>" would be better
2090 2014-02-14 15:19:05 <oleganza> torokun: https://github.com/oleganza/CoreBitcoin/blob/master/CoreBitcoin/BTCTransaction.m#L385
2091 2014-02-14 15:19:13 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: makes sense
2092 2014-02-14 15:19:26 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: yes, hardfork would be needed anyway because today TM is allowed
2093 2014-02-14 15:19:31 <oleganza> or
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2096 2014-02-14 15:20:04 <oleganza> can we find a smart solution to have miners-only vote to support some sort of "canonical" scripts
2097 2014-02-14 15:20:05 <oleganza> e.g.
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2099 2014-02-14 15:20:07 <Luke-Jr> actually, it *might* be possible to hide this inside a softfork
2100 2014-02-14 15:20:08 <oleganza> YEAH
2101 2014-02-14 15:20:09 <oleganza> YEAH
2102 2014-02-14 15:20:15 <torokun> in that article the number of bytes to push was changed. if that were signed you couldn't do that...
2103 2014-02-14 15:20:18 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: thanks for pushing away from hardfork
2104 2014-02-14 15:20:22 <oleganza> so
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2106 2014-02-14 15:20:34 <oleganza> OP_NOP1 using for "strip the next pushdata for signature"
2107 2014-02-14 15:20:45 <Luke-Jr> that wouldn't be a softfork
2108 2014-02-14 15:20:48 <oleganza> yup
2109 2014-02-14 15:20:57 <oleganza> ah, yes
2110 2014-02-14 15:21:00 <Luke-Jr> you'd need a P2SH v2 that interprets the script differently
2111 2014-02-14 15:21:15 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: that's the idea
2112 2014-02-14 15:21:30 <oleganza> but it'd be hardfork too
2113 2014-02-14 15:21:38 <oleganza> because everyone supports P2SH v1
2114 2014-02-14 15:21:48 <oleganza> or we use different script template than P2SH
2115 2014-02-14 15:21:55 <oleganza> which is today != P2SH
2116 2014-02-14 15:21:58 <torokun> are there reserved op codes?
2117 2014-02-14 15:22:20 <oleganza> torokun: https://github.com/oleganza/CoreBitcoin/blob/master/CoreBitcoin/BTCOpcode.h
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2120 2014-02-14 15:23:41 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: since P2SH is using specific byte template
2121 2014-02-14 15:24:00 <Anderkent> So someone probably asked and answered this before, but I can't find it; why are the maleable bits of a transaction included in the hash? Doesn't the signed part uniquely identify a transaction anyway, so referencing intputs as (hash-of-signed-part, index) should be safe, and allow chaining transactions in a single block even despite malleability? Thanks
2122 2014-02-14 15:24:21 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: we can use PUSHDATA2 instead of PUSHDATA1 there
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2128 2014-02-14 15:30:53 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: so if we have new kind of P2SHv2 with PUSHDATA2 in OP_HASH160 <pushdata2> OP_EQUAL, then we can enforce new meaning of OP_NOP1 as OP_STRIP_FOR_SIGNATURE
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2130 2014-02-14 15:31:03 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: and that'll be a softfork
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2132 2014-02-14 15:31:44 <oleganza> such transactions will be safe to issue when majority of miners execute them correctly.
2133 2014-02-14 15:31:52 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: thought?
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2152 2014-02-14 15:44:05 <epscy> Anderkent: it's a good question, one I would like the answer to as well, I would assume a collection of inputs and outputs would be uniquely identifiable by a hash as well
2153 2014-02-14 15:44:55 <epscy> perhaps the protocol should enforce the ordering of the inputs and outputs to prevent people from just changing the order to generate a different hash?
2154 2014-02-14 15:45:09 <Anderkent> can't change the order without violating the signature, surely?
2155 2014-02-14 15:45:14 <epscy> obv i guess that would be a hardfork right now, but is that feasible?
2156 2014-02-14 15:45:19 <epscy> Anderkent: not sure
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2158 2014-02-14 15:45:56 <epscy> i suspect this has something to do with the scriptSig stuff
2159 2014-02-14 15:46:05 <epscy> but i don't know enough to be sure
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2163 2014-02-14 15:49:22 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: http://blog.oleganza.com/post/76635779918/softfork-suggestion-how-to-fix-transaction
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2166 2014-02-14 15:49:38 <oleganza> how about that soft fork way to fix malleability?
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2173 2014-02-14 15:53:58 <skinnkavaj> Is it when you spend from one address it's less secure or is it if you use the same address for deposits but don't spend from it?
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2175 2014-02-14 15:56:05 <helo> when you spend
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2181 2014-02-14 15:57:19 <helo> skinnkavaj: but it's not really "insecure" even then. just "insecure if there were to be a mind-blowingly surprising vulnerability in ECDSA"
2182 2014-02-14 15:58:14 <skinnkavaj> So I don't have to be worried about as long as I just deposit to it and never spend more than once?
2183 2014-02-14 15:58:31 <skinnkavaj> Then you can have a static donation address, as long as you change it when you spend
2184 2014-02-14 15:58:38 <GMP> hi, i think there is potential security issue with recent malleability crap: bitcoind accounted unconfirmed change as (account) balance, right? receiving same tx with another txid adds to balance again! someone can withdraw to his own deposit address, hope for tx to mutate, and get 2x btc balance (on the exchange/service)
2185 2014-02-14 15:58:56 <helo> bitcoin would be in for a pretty bumpy ride if there was an ECDSA vulnerability. whoever is doing this tx malleability would be able to steal people's coin to the same extent if ECDSA was insecure, even if you only used addresses once.
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2187 2014-02-14 16:00:30 <helo> skinnkavaj: it's safest from a "if the sky were to fall" perspecitve, yes. but it is still bad for privacy (which is the best argument for not reusing addresses)
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2189 2014-02-14 16:01:45 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: soft-fork really needs a supermajority (or all) of miners, not merely a majority
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2191 2014-02-14 16:02:51 <oleganza> yes
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2193 2014-02-14 16:03:03 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: just like in P2SH. Did i fail to mention it?
2194 2014-02-14 16:03:05 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: and I would suggest OP_HASH160 OP_RIPEMD160 <…> OP_EQUAL instead of confusing people using a non-canonical push
2195 2014-02-14 16:03:16 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: you started off saying only a mere majority ;)
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2197 2014-02-14 16:03:49 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: fixed, thanks
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2199 2014-02-14 16:04:06 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: I'm not sure what the purpose of your rule 2 is
2200 2014-02-14 16:04:17 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: so extra RIPEMD160 over Hash160?
2201 2014-02-14 16:04:33 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: OP_STRIP would be inherently hardforking. OP_LOOKUPUNSIGNED would be better
2202 2014-02-14 16:04:46 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: yes, the extra RIPEMD160 also adds a feature gmaxwell suggested a while back
2203 2014-02-14 16:04:53 <oleganza> how ?
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2205 2014-02-14 16:05:29 <oleganza> rule 2 is to stay "compatible" with how Bitcoin works today: it replaces input script with the currently evaluated output script. I'm not sure it's really necessary
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2208 2014-02-14 16:06:28 <oleganza> maybe I wasn't clear enough. OP_STRIP during evaluation is OP_NOP. It's only for signatureHash to find and remove signatures
2209 2014-02-14 16:06:41 <oleganza> why do you name it "lookup"?
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2212 2014-02-14 16:07:38 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: also, this change *does* require regular users to upgrade their software
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2214 2014-02-14 16:08:15 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: to create txs, yes. But to accept - not. They'll just check hash equality.
2215 2014-02-14 16:08:18 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: keep in mind, the goal of your change here is to have the indexed txid be non-malleable. that means the data *must* live outside the transaction itself.
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2217 2014-02-14 16:08:41 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: to validate, no. to send or receive, they need an upgrade.
2218 2014-02-14 16:09:40 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: but to receive they'll just check the hash and that's it.
2219 2014-02-14 16:09:57 <oleganza> those who need protection against malleability, will upgrade, other's don't need to bother
2220 2014-02-14 16:10:09 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: to receive, they need to create the new addresses :p
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2222 2014-02-14 16:10:30 <oleganza> well, it counts as "we want non-malleable transaction here"
2223 2014-02-14 16:10:45 <oleganza> for micropayments protocol that's acceptable.
2224 2014-02-14 16:10:53 <oleganza> both parties want to support that
2225 2014-02-14 16:11:14 <oleganza> those who just need to pay from A to B can use current malleable txs and stay happy
2226 2014-02-14 16:12:12 * lnovy feels very ashamed
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2228 2014-02-14 16:13:10 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if this should really go the OP_CHV route so we aren't stuck with the BIP16 limitations again
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2234 2014-02-14 16:13:37 <Anderkent> oleganza: well, it's not exactly 'stay happy' if you can't spend your change transaction until it confirms
2235 2014-02-14 16:14:00 <Anderkent> (but I suppose it's not a regression, so fair enough, don't *have* to upgrade)
2236 2014-02-14 16:14:10 <Luke-Jr> Anderkent: could always use it for non-malleable change ;)
2237 2014-02-14 16:14:26 <Luke-Jr> actually, maybe not
2238 2014-02-14 16:14:50 <Luke-Jr> it's the inputs it affects, so you'd need to use coins all received using it
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2243 2014-02-14 16:15:07 <Luke-Jr> that would.. complicate the code
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2245 2014-02-14 16:15:20 <Luke-Jr> "spend unmined change, only iff all inputs are of P2SHv2 form"
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2249 2014-02-14 16:16:58 <Anderkent> hm, I don't follow; if you know your change will come from transaction with txid A, why can't you spend with some other already mined inputs?
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2251 2014-02-14 16:17:34 <Anderkent> (me not following is not surprising though, since i've never paid much attention to the protocol; if this takes a long time to explain I'm happy to take your word for it :)
2252 2014-02-14 16:18:07 <oleganza> Anderkent: yeah, currently spending unconfirmed change proved to be risky and messy
2253 2014-02-14 16:18:10 DjangoSi has joined
2254 2014-02-14 16:18:27 <Anderkent> sure, but isn't that because you don't know the txid
2255 2014-02-14 16:18:42 DjangoSi has quit (Client Quit)
2256 2014-02-14 16:18:55 <oleganza> to know txid we need it to be fixed. I proposed two solutions: hard-fork and soft-fork
2257 2014-02-14 16:18:56 <Anderkent> if either the txid was immutable (i.e. only based on the signed parts), or you had a way of making the entire tx immutable (what your solution aimed for, i think? maybe?)
2258 2014-02-14 16:19:01 dangerm00se has joined
2259 2014-02-14 16:19:06 <oleganza> hard-fork: http://blog.oleganza.com/post/76632095311/hardfork-suggestion-how-to-fix-transaction
2260 2014-02-14 16:19:14 <oleganza> soft-fork: http://blog.oleganza.com/post/76635779918/softfork-suggestion-how-to-fix-transaction
2261 2014-02-14 16:19:48 <oleganza> to change the way txid is calculated today we need a hard fork
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2265 2014-02-14 16:20:10 <oleganza> if you don't want a hardfork, we need to accept that some transactions are allowed to be malleable forever
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2267 2014-02-14 16:20:14 <Anderkent> the first one seems overcomplicated; if you're already hard forking why not just change the way you refer to previous transactions in inputs to use a hash that's consistent
2268 2014-02-14 16:20:16 <oleganza> and it's opt-in feature
2269 2014-02-14 16:20:31 <oleganza> those who want old txs - can have them. Those who want no TA, will use new P2SHv2
2270 2014-02-14 16:21:03 <oleganza> Anderkent: that's exactly what I propose. A way to compute a consistent hash
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2272 2014-02-14 16:21:15 <oleganza> to do that we need to be careful with "stripping signatures"
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2274 2014-02-14 16:21:28 <oleganza> so i propose moving them explicitly outside the script
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2276 2014-02-14 16:21:34 <oleganza> using special prefix
2277 2014-02-14 16:21:59 <oleganza> but since hard fork is hard, we may also have an intermediate solution
2278 2014-02-14 16:22:01 <Anderkent> doesnt hash(input-ids, output-ids) work?
2279 2014-02-14 16:22:03 <oleganza> like P2SHv2
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2281 2014-02-14 16:23:05 <maaku> oleganza: isn't your soft version still a hard fork?
2282 2014-02-14 16:23:14 <maaku> old clients will not validate the new format
2283 2014-02-14 16:23:22 <Luke-Jr> maaku: but they will accept it
2284 2014-02-14 16:23:56 <oleganza> maaku: it's exactly like with P2SH. Old clients will only check hash
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2286 2014-02-14 16:24:33 <berndj> are there any "cold" reservoirs of transactions? dead man's switch services maybe?
2287 2014-02-14 16:24:34 <maaku> but the hashes will be different, no?
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2289 2014-02-14 16:24:40 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: what did you mean regarding extra ripemd160?
2290 2014-02-14 16:24:41 <maaku> or am I interpreting it wrong?
2291 2014-02-14 16:24:42 <Luke-Jr> maaku: the signatures would be relayed with the block, but not part of the current block data
2292 2014-02-14 16:24:48 <oleganza> something suggested by gmaxwell
2293 2014-02-14 16:24:51 <SeksiCKret> so bitlicensing is really real? No moar mining on my gpu because the guv will be all hurrdurr we need taxes
2294 2014-02-14 16:25:05 thepok2 has joined
2295 2014-02-14 16:25:17 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: after decoding the address, the 160-bit value would be RIPEMD160'd an extra time to get the final hash used
2296 2014-02-14 16:25:50 <Luke-Jr> SeksiCKret: never heard of it, and off-topic here
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2298 2014-02-14 16:25:57 <oleganza> Luke-Jr yeah, this i get.
2299 2014-02-14 16:26:04 <oleganza> Luke-Jr: but what about "extra RIPEMD160 also adds a feature gmaxwell suggested a while back"
2300 2014-02-14 16:26:12 <SeksiCKret> okay im banned in bitcoin for asking questions so meh. Read something about it yesterday. lates.
2301 2014-02-14 16:26:13 <Luke-Jr> oleganza: that's it
2302 2014-02-14 16:26:25 <oleganza> SeksiCKret: it's bitcoin-dev, not #bitcoin
2303 2014-02-14 16:26:38 <Anderkent> oleganza: he means he's banned in #bitcoin so he came here
2304 2014-02-14 16:27:01 <oleganza> i begin to see why
2305 2014-02-14 16:27:02 <SeksiCKret> uhm doesnt things affecting the bitcoin protocol also need development. shrugs not saing anything else for fear of getting banned for asking too many qs
2306 2014-02-14 16:27:23 <maaku> oleganza: what does your hard-fork accomplish that requiring normalized scriptSigs does not?
2307 2014-02-14 16:27:42 <SeksiCKret> does this apply: have there been any colored coin derivatives that are launched for bitcoin? I hope thats not TOO off topic.
2308 2014-02-14 16:27:45 <Luke-Jr> maaku: "normalized scriptSigs" are not currently possible.
2309 2014-02-14 16:27:47 <oleganza> maaku: complex output scripts require complex input scripts. Normalizing signatures is not enough
2310 2014-02-14 16:28:00 <Luke-Jr> SeksiCKret: altcoins are off-topic too
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2312 2014-02-14 16:28:53 <SeksiCKret> ill refrain from commenting on my opinion but whateer guys
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2315 2014-02-14 16:29:28 <maaku> Luke-Jr: what do you mean? there's some uncertainty about whether the signature itself is malleable, but other than that ...
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2317 2014-02-14 16:30:24 <maaku> oleganza: no, the only movement of data between scriptSig and scriptPubKey is the stack - any scriptSig can be reduced to a series of pushdata opcodes, which can be normalized
2318 2014-02-14 16:30:25 <oleganza> maaku: I can prepend 0x01 OP_DROP to an input script and it'll go through
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2321 2014-02-14 16:30:54 <oleganza> maaku: only contained by isStandard check, but for non-standard scripts it's irrelevant anyway
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2323 2014-02-14 16:31:11 <maaku> oleganza: https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691
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2329 2014-02-14 16:32:20 <oleganza> maaku thanks
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2340 2014-02-14 16:35:38 <maaku> shaileshg: OP_RETURN is accepted by a very large percentage of miners
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2345 2014-02-14 16:37:41 <maaku> shaileshg: I would certainly not do it the way thenotebook does
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2347 2014-02-14 16:37:57 <maaku> that would be reckless and irresponsible
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2383 2014-02-14 16:59:22 <dexX7> hey, i created strange tx (inserted op_nop, op_drop for example) and now i'm wondering.. how can i use these outputs? tried to spent them via standard tx, but now i'm unable to sign with signrawtransaction :/
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2391 2014-02-14 17:05:13 <andytoshi> dexX7: signrawtransaction actually fails? if you can set up a normal tx so that it signs the right stuff, you can then copy/paste the signature into your weird transaction with a text editor..
2392 2014-02-14 17:05:14 tesserajk has joined
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2394 2014-02-14 17:06:36 <maaku> dexX7: signrawtransaction only signs what it can understand...
2395 2014-02-14 17:06:37 tesserajk has joined
2396 2014-02-14 17:06:48 <dexX7> yes, it doesn't insert any signature. i'm trying to spent non-standard tx with a standard tx
2397 2014-02-14 17:06:53 <dexX7> hmm.. i thougth so
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2400 2014-02-14 17:07:40 <dexX7> for example https://blockchain.info/tx/d087410c172f57a7857b6341c952592de7934d1fee0fc745e9b7569487656876
2401 2014-02-14 17:09:30 <Luke-Jr> dexX7: that doesn't make sense.
2402 2014-02-14 17:09:32 mattolson has joined
2403 2014-02-14 17:09:42 <Luke-Jr> what is non-standard is non-standard.
2404 2014-02-14 17:09:47 <Luke-Jr> you can't "make" it standard
2405 2014-02-14 17:09:49 <dexX7> so?
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2407 2014-02-14 17:11:06 <andytoshi> dexX7: to get OP_CHECKSIG OP_NOT to pass, just copy a signature from any other transaction, you don't need signrawtransactions
2408 2014-02-14 17:11:12 <andytoshi> signrawtransaction*
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2411 2014-02-14 17:11:53 <dexX7> it's NOP, not NOT
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2413 2014-02-14 17:12:03 <andytoshi> oh lol
2414 2014-02-14 17:12:56 <maaku> dexX7: the bitcoind code just pattern matches to see if the script is one it knows it can solve
2415 2014-02-14 17:12:58 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: why copy a sig at all? just leave the stack empty :P
2416 2014-02-14 17:13:09 <maaku> you'll have to calculate the ecdsa sig yourself, or patch bitcoind to recognize the script
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2419 2014-02-14 17:14:08 <andytoshi> tx d256c8358ea679a92fc9696389aac10f47eb956398056ebe1e51ea4aa4308924 has OP_NOT (though it's hidden behind a p2sh address), i misread that the hashes are the same because they both start with d..
2420 2014-02-14 17:15:19 <dexX7> is there a way to tell bitcoind what to sign? something like "here, this is your input, ignore all balances and whatsoever, simply sign it with privkey x"?
2421 2014-02-14 17:15:33 nick43 has joined
2422 2014-02-14 17:15:38 <maaku> dexX7: signmessage
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2424 2014-02-14 17:15:50 <maaku> you'll have to reformat the signature afterwards
2425 2014-02-14 17:16:00 <andytoshi> dexX7: in this case i'd just patch bitcoind to recognize the OP_NOP, since it's functionally identical to a standard pay-to-pubkeyhash
2426 2014-02-14 17:16:35 <GMP> sorry for bringing up potential security issue again: listaddressgroupings RPC API / CWallet::GetAddressBalances() treats unconfirmed IsFromMe() tx'es as confirmed. services, relying on this API can count transaction (withdraw to deposit address) twice in case of txid mutation - malicious user can multiply their funds by 2. can anyone confirm that is not the case?
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2428 2014-02-14 17:17:20 <andytoshi> GMP: nobody can multiply their funds by confusing their client
2429 2014-02-14 17:17:22 <dexX7> thanks for the hints :)
2430 2014-02-14 17:17:27 majoh has joined
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2432 2014-02-14 17:17:48 <andytoshi> but in general maaku is right .. i'd not do this in future if you don't know how to spend :)
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2435 2014-02-14 17:18:03 <andytoshi> or at least use testnet
2436 2014-02-14 17:18:13 <gmaxwell> GMP: You'll need to provide more details, because the counting there is only of the self-change, not payments from external parties.
2437 2014-02-14 17:18:26 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: wrt GMP's question, note he said "services"
2438 2014-02-14 17:18:39 <andytoshi> oh, sorry
2439 2014-02-14 17:19:02 <dexX7> hehe yea.. i made a few of those, but actually didn't think about what to do next
2440 2014-02-14 17:19:53 <Anderkent> andytoshi: consider an exchange that uses one wallet per user and trusts getAddressBalances; the user withdraws 0.01 out of his 1 bitcoin, the rest goes back into the wallet as a change; the transaction is mutated, the reported ballance is 1.98, he then sells that for USD/whatever
2441 2014-02-14 17:20:25 <gmaxwell> maaku: signmessage is fundimentally incompatible, it uses a different hash specifically to prevent someone from using that to perform an attack.
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2443 2014-02-14 17:21:04 <Jere_Jones> gmaxwell: Useful to know
2444 2014-02-14 17:21:06 <gmaxwell> Anderkent: but if it really were "one wallet per user" then there is no attack there, you cannot withdraw coins that the wallet doesn't have.
2445 2014-02-14 17:21:07 <Luke-Jr> Anderkent: there is no such thing as getAddressBalances..
2446 2014-02-14 17:21:23 <gmaxwell> and indeed, there is no "getAddressBalances".
2447 2014-02-14 17:21:34 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: they can't withdraw coins but they can perhaps sell for USD and withdraw that..
2448 2014-02-14 17:21:57 <Anderkent> well, I was just looking at his initial message
2449 2014-02-14 17:22:14 aynsteinaltego is now known as aynstein
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2453 2014-02-14 17:23:25 <GMP> the point was: listaddressgroupings RPC API is unsafe
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2455 2014-02-14 17:23:53 mps has joined
2456 2014-02-14 17:23:59 <gmaxwell> GMP: why are you commenting about listaddressgroupings?
2457 2014-02-14 17:27:23 wallet42 has joined
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2459 2014-02-14 17:28:00 <gmaxwell> GMP: again, this is only related to change, it doesn't appear with transactions sent by a third party. Or associated with any previously known or user associated address.
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2462 2014-02-14 17:29:06 <GMP> gmaxwell: the theory is there exists multiple potential bugs, allowing users to trick service/exchange into depositing 'fake' btc by withdrawing from service _to_ service and mutating tx in the process.  listaddressgroupings is just one case when balance counted incorrectly
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2464 2014-02-14 17:30:16 <gmaxwell> GMP: I understand what you're saying, but I'm still not seeing how it can result in that. The 'extra' funds are not attributed to any user.
2465 2014-02-14 17:30:48 tombtc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2466 2014-02-14 17:31:04 <gmaxwell> (The closest I could see is Anderkent's one wallet per user; but I am reasonably confident that no one is operating that way because the software doesn't support more than one wallet)
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2469 2014-02-14 17:32:32 <gmaxwell> FWIW, the counting is now fixed.
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2471 2014-02-14 17:34:49 <Gnaf> 150 dollar, and then its gone...
2472 2014-02-14 17:34:50 <Gnaf> 2 days ago i sent with a vanilla Bitcoin QT8.5-Wallet a transaction to my bitstamp wallet (http://postimg.org/image/9472fvl4d/)
2473 2014-02-14 17:34:52 <Gnaf> it never arrived
2474 2014-02-14 17:34:53 <Gnaf> The transaction, BTC 0.27 and fee BTC 0.0007, both deducted from wallet txid: b0517bd3dd205332628bc3b0285a78c09fac06311b645c7b8decc10612404045
2475 2014-02-14 17:34:54 <Gnaf> have not been verified by the bitcoinnetwork at all
2476 2014-02-14 17:34:56 <Gnaf> 0/6 confirmations
2477 2014-02-14 17:34:58 <Gnaf> Not only are my bitcoins disappearing into nothing, i also receive 0.005 bitcoins out of nothing
2478 2014-02-14 17:34:59 <Gnaf> 1Wh4bh account
2479 2014-02-14 17:35:00 Raziel has joined
2480 2014-02-14 17:35:01 <Gnaf> From a sender that didn't sent it to me, to an account i didn't know i had
2481 2014-02-14 17:35:02 <Gnaf> Unable to decode input address, txid: 2ee6d8ea223e118075882edba876f01b30f407eb6c6d31c40bd6664a17f20f0c
2482 2014-02-14 17:35:04 <Gnaf> CScript::ExtractAddress garbage
2483 2014-02-14 17:35:05 <Gnaf> Receiving becomes questionable and sending bitcoins is going nowhere
2484 2014-02-14 17:35:06 <Gnaf> I used to love bitcoin, now you are fucking with me.
2485 2014-02-14 17:35:08 <Gnaf> 150 dollar, and then its gone...
2486 2014-02-14 17:35:10 <andytoshi> Gnaf: fuck off
2487 2014-02-14 17:35:17 <andytoshi> sorry, you are typing too fast
2488 2014-02-14 17:35:25 <andytoshi> i did not think you would stop
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2491 2014-02-14 17:36:27 <andytoshi> Gnaf: the txid you posted may correspond to a transaction which was malleated and then confirmed with a different ID. so you will not see confirmations with the old ID, even though the tx went through
2492 2014-02-14 17:36:48 <andytoshi> if the transaction was actually not confirmed, it never left you. in either case no funds are lost
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2494 2014-02-14 17:36:54 <jaakkos> shouldn't he see the malleated tx?
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2500 2014-02-14 17:42:14 <jaakkos> Gnaf: is your bitcoin client really connected to the network? because 1JNyKaTtDeUKZynmyKSctcHr695FS1tGDK has not received a 0.27 transaction
2501 2014-02-14 17:42:16 <andytoshi> jaakkos: yeah, he should. i think this has simply not been confirmed
2502 2014-02-14 17:42:32 <andytoshi> that's what i see too. and i don't see the txid on any of my nodes or bc.i
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2506 2014-02-14 17:43:05 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I'm wondering if we should have some kind of gui thing that offers to zap for you.  Right now I think with all fixes in, our handling of the case where a forever stuck conflicted transaction is holding inputs is bad.
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2508 2014-02-14 17:43:34 <gmaxwell> wumpus: but maybe if it detects at startup live inputs being held by a conflicted transaction it could offer to zap it?
2509 2014-02-14 17:43:56 <Gnaf> jaakos: yep my qt8.5 wallet is online and the 0.2707 is deducted from my wallet
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2511 2014-02-14 17:44:36 <andytoshi> Gnaf: well it's not actually, otherwise the network would have noticed a spend to the destination address
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2514 2014-02-14 17:45:09 <Gnaf> andytoshi: that what i thought  aswell
2515 2014-02-14 17:45:24 <jaakkos> Gnaf: the client displays the sync status in lower right corner
2516 2014-02-14 17:45:33 <jaakkos> how many blocks have you received?
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2519 2014-02-14 17:47:04 <andytoshi> Gnaf: cool. there is no 'twilight' state in which coins disappear, transactions are atomic. so if the network has not seen the tx then it simply didn't happen. (ofc, convincing your client of this might be a pain)
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2521 2014-02-14 17:47:25 <Gnaf> jaakkos: 285842 and http://postimg.org/image/oigmtcc1r
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2523 2014-02-14 17:48:49 <gmaxwell> Gnaf: you just need to zap that transaction and your wallet will be fine. There is a kludgy way you can do it, but if you can wait a few days they'll be an updated version out that makes your life easier.
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2526 2014-02-14 17:49:23 <andytoshi> it's weird though that it hasn't broadcast, there appears to be nothing wrong with it and there are no malleated versions out there
2527 2014-02-14 17:49:27 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: did you read the previous lines?
2528 2014-02-14 17:50:06 <Gnaf> gmaxwell: oke, i am not in a hurry, how can i do that?
2529 2014-02-14 17:50:29 <jaakkos> Gnaf: your problem seems to be different.
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2531 2014-02-14 17:51:22 <andytoshi> jaakkos: zapping will still fix it fwiw
2532 2014-02-14 17:51:46 <jaakkos> well why wouldn't it broadcast
2533 2014-02-14 17:51:46 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: I don't see what you're thinking, it sounds pretty obvious to me that he spend the losing side of some unconfirmed change in that transaction.
2534 2014-02-14 17:51:50 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell sipa wumpus: have a little time to brainstorm a bit?
2535 2014-02-14 17:51:58 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yes.
2536 2014-02-14 17:52:18 <gavinandresen> cool.  I'm wrestling with accounts (yeah yeah, we should deprecate....)
2537 2014-02-14 17:52:27 * phantomcircuit imagines sand swirrling around in gmaxwell's brain
2538 2014-02-14 17:52:32 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: hmm... i would've expected he'd see 2 unconfirming txs in that case, but maybe it's not the case
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2540 2014-02-14 17:52:37 <gavinandresen> So:  imagine you've got accounts "a" and "b", each with 10 BTC
2541 2014-02-14 17:52:43 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, zomg please do, i would be sooooo happy
2542 2014-02-14 17:52:47 <Gnaf> gmaxwell: how do i do this zapping, where do i start
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2544 2014-02-14 17:53:07 <gavinandresen> You spend 1 BTC from a, then use the unconfirmed change to spend 2 BTC debited from b.
2545 2014-02-14 17:53:28 <gavinandresen> Account balances are then: a : 9 BTC, b: 8 BTC.
2546 2014-02-14 17:53:31 <andytoshi> jaakkos: no, if he spent invalid change the tx would not have even left his node, nowhere for multiple transactions to appear
2547 2014-02-14 17:54:06 <gavinandresen> Now the first 1 BTC transaction gets mutated, and the mutant gets mined….
2548 2014-02-14 17:54:18 <gavinandresen> Question is: what should the account balances be?
2549 2014-02-14 17:54:49 <gavinandresen> "a" has two -1 BTC debits, one of which is mined and the other of which is conflicted.
2550 2014-02-14 17:55:00 <gavinandresen> "b" has a -1 BTC debug, which is conflicted.
2551 2014-02-14 17:55:30 <upb> how do you know youve been coding too much? typo debit as debug :P
2552 2014-02-14 17:55:32 <gmaxwell> _should_ in a world with fixed software still be 9/8 ... I'm guessing with current git and fixes it would be 8,10 ?
2553 2014-02-14 17:55:46 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, iirc there is no way to correctly fix that since the accounting entries aren't linked to the transaction
2554 2014-02-14 17:55:52 <gavinandresen> If b's balance goes back to 10 BTC, then there is a window where an attacker might be able to make the account go negative if a re-org brings back the original transactions
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2556 2014-02-14 17:56:12 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: sure they are.
2557 2014-02-14 17:56:27 <phantomcircuit> oh
2558 2014-02-14 17:56:48 <phantomcircuit> ok then they should be 10:10 and the default account 0
2559 2014-02-14 17:56:49 <phantomcircuit> er
2560 2014-02-14 17:56:52 <phantomcircuit> -1
2561 2014-02-14 17:57:27 <gavinandresen> My current thinking is that conflicted debits SHOULD count against account balances for a while.  Either some-number-of-blocks, or some-fixed-time.
2562 2014-02-14 17:57:48 <denisx> looks like bitcoind needs a journal like filesystems have
2563 2014-02-14 17:57:48 <gavinandresen> That prevents Bad Things from happening in a re-org.
2564 2014-02-14 17:58:12 <phantomcircuit> denisx, the wallet is bdb which is a journaled database actually
2565 2014-02-14 17:58:14 <denisx> on zfs it is called intentlog
2566 2014-02-14 17:58:22 <lechuga_> ...
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2568 2014-02-14 17:58:26 <phantomcircuit> (supposedly... im not sure it's *actually* journaled)
2569 2014-02-14 17:58:36 <gavinandresen> e.g. "b"'s balance would be 8 BTC until the conflicted transaction is 24 hours old.
2570 2014-02-14 17:59:18 <lechuga_> couldnt it be 8 until [minconf]
2571 2014-02-14 18:00:05 <gavinandresen> lechuga_: you mean the [minconf] used in the spendfrom call that created it?
2572 2014-02-14 18:00:26 <lechuga_> i was thinking minconf used for listaccounts or whatever you're querying for balance
2573 2014-02-14 18:00:38 <gmaxwell> minconf in spendfrom does almost nothing.
2574 2014-02-14 18:00:55 <gmaxwell> (It just controls the decision to send or not, nothing about coinselection.)
2575 2014-02-14 18:01:41 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: minconf also doesn't change counting your own spends. It just avoids counting third party payments that don't meet your own definition of 'confirmed'.
2576 2014-02-14 18:01:49 <gavinandresen> lechuga_: interesting idea….
2577 2014-02-14 18:02:07 <lechuga_> if a twin hits minconf you show 10 and if both linger pre-minconf u show 8
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2579 2014-02-14 18:02:10 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: but it COULD change the counting of conflicted debits.
2580 2014-02-14 18:02:10 <lechuga_> or somethign tte
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2583 2014-02-14 18:03:04 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Wouldn't this case be solve by realizing that the two transactions in question are mutually exclusive and functionally identical and just treating them like one transaction for the purpose of this computation?
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2586 2014-02-14 18:03:39 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: that would solve the accounting for "a" -- it has a conflicted spend and a mutant-but-confirmed spend.
2587 2014-02-14 18:03:52 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: right gotcha.
2588 2014-02-14 18:03:54 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: the issue is for "b", which used unconfirmed change from a....
2589 2014-02-14 18:04:04 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: but b still need to be counted too.
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2592 2014-02-14 18:04:47 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: well… if the conflict is buried deep enough then it is safe to assume the spend failed
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2595 2014-02-14 18:04:58 <gavinandresen> … so b's balance can go back up.
2596 2014-02-14 18:05:20 <gmaxwell> Hm. that might also answer another question I had, how do we release any spent coins that transaction might be jamming.
2597 2014-02-14 18:05:36 <gmaxwell> e.g. B's transaction might spend the change, plus some other coins. And now those coins are unavailable for spending.
2598 2014-02-14 18:05:36 <jaakkos> Gnaf: we're discussing your case on #bitcoin to not disturb the devs here
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2601 2014-02-14 18:06:36 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: so we could release after a while too. a  -conflictreleaseblocks  but then we need to know how deep the conflict is.
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2605 2014-02-14 18:06:59 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: right, and we don't necessarily know for old wallets (new wallets could keep track)
2606 2014-02-14 18:07:10 <Gnaf> jaakkos: oke tnx
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2609 2014-02-14 18:07:32 <gmaxwell> well fortunately for self-conflicts the data should all be in the wallet, thats better than the generic doublespend case.
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2611 2014-02-14 18:07:52 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yup.
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2613 2014-02-14 18:07:54 <lechuga_> what do you mean by "how deep the conflict is" what is deepness?
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2617 2014-02-14 18:08:32 <gavinandresen> "how many blocks ago did a transaction get mined that meant this transaction can never confirm"
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2619 2014-02-14 18:08:56 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: if we have such a thing it should probably be awfully high, I'd worry that 6 might misbehave during a network event... maybe just default it to something crazy like 36 and someone who wants it freed faster can change the setting.
2620 2014-02-14 18:09:19 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yes, that's why I though 24 hours (116 blocks) ....
2621 2014-02-14 18:09:45 <gavinandresen> wait… 24 * 6 == 144
2622 2014-02-14 18:10:09 <gavinandresen> eh, round it down to 111....
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2624 2014-02-14 18:10:11 <gmaxwell> I was debating to correct or wondering if 11 was intentional. :)  In any case, sure. I think that sounds sane.
2625 2014-02-14 18:10:20 <denisx> round it to 120
2626 2014-02-14 18:10:28 <denisx> then the block is confirmed anyway
2627 2014-02-14 18:10:40 <gmaxwell> denisx: then the block is confirmed?!
2628 2014-02-14 18:11:02 <gmaxwell> denisx: there is nothing in the bitcoin protocol with a behavior at 120.
2629 2014-02-14 18:11:41 <Luke-Jr> it might make sense to take depth-of-conflict into account when selecting coins, but perhaps unnecessarily complex
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2631 2014-02-14 18:12:02 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: we'll never select a coin we know is conflicted (with current patches)
2632 2014-02-14 18:12:32 <gmaxwell> oh do you mean avoiding selecting the winner too?
2633 2014-02-14 18:12:41 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'm thinking in the case where you send a transaction consuming X and Y, then X is double-spent; Y needs to be spendable, eventually
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2636 2014-02-14 18:13:58 <gmaxwell> In an ideal world all those confirmed counts used for filtering selection shouldn't be confirms but height advantage over the next best chain that the input doesn't exist in, but thats a hideously complex thing to implement.
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2640 2014-02-14 18:14:38 <gmaxwell> we already prefer coins which have higher confirm counts, which I think generally approximates what you're asking for there.
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2647 2014-02-14 18:16:04 <gavinandresen> ok, -conflictreleaseblocks with a high default feels like the best path forward for now.  lechuga_ 's idea to tie it to the [minconf] for the getbalance call you're making is interesting, but would be harder to test/implement/explain, and I don't think it the extra complexity is worth it.
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2649 2014-02-14 18:16:39 <lechuga_> seems reasonable
2650 2014-02-14 18:16:50 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yea, and if it releases all the spent inputs then it also is the last fix I think we need to solve people's problems who are goofed up right now.
2651 2014-02-14 18:17:27 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: the spent inputs were always released, I believe. Just weren't counted properly in getbalance calls.
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2654 2014-02-14 18:18:47 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: always you mean w/ the conflicted patch?  I didn't think they lost their vfSpent flag.
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2659 2014-02-14 18:20:32 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: mmm… I'll extend my test case to exercise that.
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2661 2014-02-14 18:21:30 <gavinandresen> right after I finish changing from using normtxids to outpoints….
2662 2014-02-14 18:21:46 <gmaxwell> :)
2663 2014-02-14 18:21:59 <gmaxwell> \O/
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2683 2014-02-14 18:28:30 <vekexasia> is there a way to calculate the tx fees
2684 2014-02-14 18:28:35 <vekexasia> using rpc methods?
2685 2014-02-14 18:28:41 <vekexasia> before sending the money?
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2704 2014-02-14 18:37:34 <maaku> you don't need rpc
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2706 2014-02-14 18:37:41 <maaku> sum(inputs) - sum(outputs)
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2713 2014-02-14 18:42:15 <etotheipi_> quick question: isn't the VAR_INT describing the length of the scriptSig also malleable?  I don't see it in https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691
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2716 2014-02-14 18:43:05 <vekexasia> maaku, ?
2717 2014-02-14 18:43:36 <vekexasia> I feel stupid to ask but what do you mean?
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2721 2014-02-14 18:45:52 <lechuga_> etotheipi: the code rejects noncanonical varints
2722 2014-02-14 18:46:09 <andytoshi> is that part of IsStandard though?
2723 2014-02-14 18:46:15 <lechuga_> etotheipi_: ^
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2725 2014-02-14 18:47:12 <lechuga_> but i think thats a good point
2726 2014-02-14 18:47:20 <lechuga_> and should be mentioned
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2728 2014-02-14 18:48:33 <etotheipi_> oh, isStandard() is checking for minimum-sized varints?
2729 2014-02-14 18:48:33 <lechuga_> it's part of ReadCompactSize in serialize.h
2730 2014-02-14 18:48:47 <lechuga_> it will throw an exception if you try it
2731 2014-02-14 18:49:01 <etotheipi_> but we're talking about validity, correct?  not just isStandard
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2734 2014-02-14 18:49:43 <lechuga_> its at a lower level than that
2735 2014-02-14 18:49:45 <andytoshi> etotheipi_: for now we are just talking isStandard
2736 2014-02-14 18:50:20 <andytoshi> though i wonder if it is actually invalid..
2737 2014-02-14 18:50:26 <lechuga_> you should mention it to sipa on his proposal though
2738 2014-02-14 18:50:29 <lechuga_> wonder if what is invalid?
2739 2014-02-14 18:50:54 <andytoshi> i wonder if the rejection of non-min-sized varints in in consensus code
2740 2014-02-14 18:51:01 <lechuga_> its not
2741 2014-02-14 18:51:09 <lechuga_> its enforced at the time of desrialization
2742 2014-02-14 18:51:16 <andytoshi> ok, thx
2743 2014-02-14 18:51:19 <lechuga_> it wont even make it to the point of being considered standard
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2745 2014-02-14 18:51:46 <andytoshi> ..so if i mine a tx with a bloated varint i can crash peoples' bitcoinds?
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2747 2014-02-14 18:52:37 <lechuga_> im assuming the exception is caught
2748 2014-02-14 18:52:51 <andytoshi> eh, i'll make one and see how decoderawtransaction handles it
2749 2014-02-14 18:53:31 <lechuga_> godspeed
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2754 2014-02-14 18:57:13 <andytoshi> says 'tx decode failed'
2755 2014-02-14 18:57:20 <lechuga_> sounds about right
2756 2014-02-14 18:57:24 <andytoshi> my coinjoin code decodes it happily, so i didn't make any typos..
2757 2014-02-14 18:57:50 NeatBasis has joined
2758 2014-02-14 18:57:56 <etotheipi_> so non-canonical var-ints are actually invalid altogether?
2759 2014-02-14 18:58:01 <maaku> it should nevertheless be documented as a protocol rule
2760 2014-02-14 18:58:12 <etotheipi_> when did that happen?
2761 2014-02-14 18:58:14 <lechuga_> agreed
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2763 2014-02-14 18:58:51 <andytoshi> i'll change my decoder to allow this, then try to send one out on testnet..
2764 2014-02-14 18:58:53 <lechuga_> etotheipi_: you could try gitblame :)
2765 2014-02-14 18:59:01 <lechuga_> git blame*
2766 2014-02-14 18:59:22 <sneak> anyone have any thoughts about the Enjoy and Sochi payments sending 0.00000001 btc to thousands and thousands of addresses?
2767 2014-02-14 18:59:30 <sneak> i think it's a large-scale deanonymization attack
2768 2014-02-14 18:59:39 <lechuga_> i highly doubt it
2769 2014-02-14 18:59:41 <sneak> looking to cross-correlate keys by payment combinations
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2772 2014-02-14 19:01:06 * porquilho happy valentines day to everyone
2773 2014-02-14 19:01:36 <andytoshi> varints are little endian right?
2774 2014-02-14 19:01:38 jtimon has joined
2775 2014-02-14 19:01:40 <lechuga_> yes
2776 2014-02-14 19:02:02 <andytoshi> ok, thx, just sanity checking :)
2777 2014-02-14 19:02:06 <lechuga_> np
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2783 2014-02-14 19:02:54 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: they're signed, too
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2785 2014-02-14 19:03:38 <lechuga_> luke-jr knows why i am intimately familiar with this code :)
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2787 2014-02-14 19:04:01 <andytoshi> Luke-Jr: yeah, i'm changing the scriptSiglen because that's not signed
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2792 2014-02-14 19:04:40 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: pretty sure it is
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2795 2014-02-14 19:04:57 <andytoshi> though it's just as easy to change something before signing, presumably the 'tx decode failed' path is the same for signraw and decoderaw
2796 2014-02-14 19:05:47 <gmaxwell> sneak: maybe it is, who knows, it's really DOSed some services. figure out how to get dust-b-gone deployed to lots of people in order to end it being a deanon attack.
2797 2014-02-14 19:06:13 <gmaxwell> sneak: also, go nag whatever pools are mining them and ask them why. You have to override bitcoind defaults to mine those things.
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2804 2014-02-14 19:08:09 <lechuga_> are they actually being mined
2805 2014-02-14 19:08:15 <sneak> gmaxwell: hrm, interesting point
2806 2014-02-14 19:08:19 <lechuga_> the two i got yesterday morning are still sittin gthere in the mempool
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2808 2014-02-14 19:09:24 <sneak> gmaxwell: it's a bummer that such hugely abusive (and privacy-compromising) transactions would require a hard fork to prohibit now
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2815 2014-02-14 19:13:55 <gmaxwell> sneak: we'd (community around here at least) never consider hard forking to prohibit them in any case.
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2817 2014-02-14 19:14:37 <gmaxwell> wallets can also deal with these things via things like dust-b-gone... so the privacy part isn't why they need to be inhibited, it's the utxo bloat impact that demands inhibiting them.
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2821 2014-02-14 19:16:15 <sneak> gmaxwell: i know
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2827 2014-02-14 19:17:23 <sneak> (i know re: hard fork, i mean)
2828 2014-02-14 19:17:31 <sneak> dust-b-gone is news to me, but i am hugely glad it exists
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2834 2014-02-14 19:19:36 <gmaxwell> sneak: I think it's interesting that I haven't recieved a single one of these bits of dust.
2835 2014-02-14 19:19:55 ahbritto has joined
2836 2014-02-14 19:20:17 <sneak> i got a few to coinbase deposit addresses of mine. i'd previously heard of them but have not received any in my wallets yet
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2838 2014-02-14 19:20:29 <sneak> i don't care because coinbase pools internally, that's no biggie
2839 2014-02-14 19:20:41 <sneak> but my worry is cross-contaminating stuff in my other wallets
2840 2014-02-14 19:20:53 <sneak> i should probably generate new addresses and mix/clean my coins and just put them elsewhere
2841 2014-02-14 19:21:00 [BNC]dansmith is now known as dansmith_btc
2842 2014-02-14 19:21:05 <sneak> my main wallet is in -qt going back to april of 2011
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2845 2014-02-14 19:21:19 <nezZario> here I'll ask here
2846 2014-02-14 19:21:22 <sneak> seeing my many >1000btc spends shouldn't be on my screen anymore anyway
2847 2014-02-14 19:21:28 <nezZario> please let me know if it's not an appropriate place to ask
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2855 2014-02-14 19:22:25 <nezZario> but, I keep hearing about the inputs & outputs, .. how can I see the inputs & outputs in the api?
2856 2014-02-14 19:22:47 <nezZario> I read your paper andytoshi but it didn't clear anything up, but it at least let me know what I'm confused about
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2863 2014-02-14 19:24:34 <lnovy> nezZario: maybe this will help https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions
2864 2014-02-14 19:24:36 <andytoshi> nezZario: getrawtransaction and decoderawtransaction. the inputs are described by a previous txid and an output index
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2878 2014-02-14 19:33:53 <Tecan> how do i launch bitcoind to connect to the rpc server ?
2879 2014-02-14 19:34:01 <Tecan> i need to make wallets
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2881 2014-02-14 19:36:06 <nezZario> Tecan: look at the bitcoin.conf example in the wiki, it has everything you need
2882 2014-02-14 19:36:37 <nezZario> So let me get this straight, the point driven home here is that addresses don't actually have a balance because it's just a pub/priv key pair in the end
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2885 2014-02-14 19:37:33 <nezZario> It's actually the transactions that have signed a leaf to that public key pair (the receiving address) themselves that give "balance" if you could describe it as that
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2887 2014-02-14 19:37:58 <andytoshi> nezZario: less than that, you don't really care that an address is a priv/pubkey pair, an address is a payment destination, it labels outputs
2888 2014-02-14 19:38:21 <Luke-Jr> nezZario: addresses aren't a keypair. they're opaque.
2889 2014-02-14 19:38:48 <nezZario> they represet "probably" a keypair - is that correct?
2890 2014-02-14 19:39:07 <nezZario> oh
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2892 2014-02-14 19:39:15 <nezZario> yeah, but that would just be silly to say
2893 2014-02-14 19:39:16 <Imbue> nezZario: an address represents <big number> of keypairs
2894 2014-02-14 19:39:29 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2895 2014-02-14 19:39:33 <Imbue> so it's not really sensible to think about them in that way
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2897 2014-02-14 19:39:47 <andytoshi> an address is a payment destination, addresses label utxos, it's not relevant how they're computed
2898 2014-02-14 19:40:19 <andytoshi> somehow you own certain utxos, the mechanism of that involves keypairs from which addresses are derived, but all that's relevant from a user perspective is that you own them
2899 2014-02-14 19:41:08 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: you own bitcoins, not utxos
2900 2014-02-14 19:41:13 <Luke-Jr> wallets control utxos
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2903 2014-02-14 19:42:00 <nezZario> you have the authority to reassign utxo's .. ?
2904 2014-02-14 19:42:09 <Luke-Jr> nezZario: authority is a legal concept.
2905 2014-02-14 19:42:19 <Luke-Jr> wallets have the capability to spend utxos :p
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2909 2014-02-14 19:42:33 <Imbue> well, ownership is a legal concept too :P
2910 2014-02-14 19:42:46 <Adrao> Nice linguistics!
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2912 2014-02-14 19:42:50 <Luke-Jr> exactly
2913 2014-02-14 19:43:08 <Luke-Jr> that's why talking about low-level technical aspects in terms of ownership/authority is not very sensible
2914 2014-02-14 19:43:13 <Imbue> you are in possession of private keys
2915 2014-02-14 19:43:17 <Luke-Jr> technical aspects are independent from legalities
2916 2014-02-14 19:43:28 <Imbue> that's about as far as you can go without ambiguity I think
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2920 2014-02-14 19:44:13 <nezZario> :)
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2924 2014-02-14 19:45:28 <nezZario> so how do websites (like blockchain.info) derive even the notion of "sending" addresses? .. they're just backing up one step where the utxo before it was *labeled* to go to?
2925 2014-02-14 19:46:01 <andytoshi> nezZario: yes, and that ofc has nothing to do with the sender, so they're just lying for the sake of lying
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2927 2014-02-14 19:46:13 <gmaxwell> nezZario: yea, they're analyizing the history, but the analysis can sometimes be misleading, since it doesn't really express ownership.
2928 2014-02-14 19:46:29 <gmaxwell> /sendership.
2929 2014-02-14 19:46:35 <andytoshi> or nicely, 'misleading despite being asked not to, and despite the confusion it causes'
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2932 2014-02-14 19:47:06 <andytoshi> where are varints serialized in the source?
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2934 2014-02-14 19:47:24 <nezZario> oh my, I think I understand it
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2936 2014-02-14 19:48:58 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: not just confusion, it's caused people to lose funds. :(
2937 2014-02-14 19:49:29 <nezZario> Appreciate it.. I'm just trying to write some example scripts to handle bitcoin, .. I just want to ensure I have it correct
2938 2014-02-14 19:49:41 * Luke-Jr has had donors send donations to entirely unrelated people :/
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2940 2014-02-14 19:49:50 <nezZario> gmaxwell: not to bother you, is there a simple scenario where someone could loose funds?
2941 2014-02-14 19:49:58 <Luke-Jr> nezZario: if you have any concept of a "sender address", it isn't correct
2942 2014-02-14 19:50:24 <nezZario> Luke-Jr: I understand the notion is incorrect, I'm struggling a bit to understand it
2943 2014-02-14 19:50:36 <gmaxwell> nezZario: sure. I send you some funds for something. And then you decide, oops I need to return those funds. — instead of contacting me (or having prompted me for a refund address at the start) you use bc.i's idea of the 'from'.
2944 2014-02-14 19:50:56 <gmaxwell> Now those coins end up getting paid to another person or to a private key you don't have anymore.
2945 2014-02-14 19:51:09 <andytoshi> nezZario: it's tough because we aren't consistent with the level of abstraction we use to explain these things. imo luke's is the best, but i find that his explanations (a) leave people asking for more technical details, and (b) don't really explain why, if addresses are opaque payment destinations, bc.i is happily displaying 'sending addresses' and 'address balances'
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2947 2014-02-14 19:51:42 <gmaxwell> (in the first case: because you used a shared wallet, or paid via a coinjoin, or some other complicated arrangement.)
2948 2014-02-14 19:51:51 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: b: blockchain.info is full of misinformation and just plain wrong :P
2949 2014-02-14 19:51:56 <nezZario> Ohhh-ok
2950 2014-02-14 19:52:22 <Imbue> isn't that just a misunderstanding of a returns process, though?
2951 2014-02-14 19:52:25 <Luke-Jr> a: technical details should be spoken of strictly isolated from high-level concepts, or there *will* be confusion
2952 2014-02-14 19:52:35 <Imbue> the input is what the input is, it may not be sensible to send coins back to it, those are seperate
2953 2014-02-14 19:52:54 <andytoshi> Luke-Jr: :P right, and then it's the secretive cabal of devs refusing to explain things and insisting that things aren't true when they're right there on the internet
2954 2014-02-14 19:53:22 <andytoshi> but yeah, you're right, i should fix my faq to separate more clearly
2955 2014-02-14 19:54:31 <Luke-Jr> maybe someday someone will fund writing a book explaining Bitcoin at every level; we can split it into low-level protocol, high-level concepts, and then dedicate an entire section to explaining how the abstraction is implemented
2956 2014-02-14 19:54:51 Application has joined
2957 2014-02-14 19:54:54 <Imbue> Luke-Jr: do you think that's possible, though?
2958 2014-02-14 19:55:05 <Imbue> Luke-Jr: I tend to think it would mostly be easier for people to attempt to code a wallet
2959 2014-02-14 19:55:20 <Imbue> can you explain the C Programming Language in words? you will probably learn more effectively by doing
2960 2014-02-14 19:55:35 <nezZario> Now that's an interesting concept
2961 2014-02-14 19:55:54 <Luke-Jr> Imbue: I agree, but I don't think everyone learns the same way
2962 2014-02-14 19:56:08 <Luke-Jr> there are many people who don't understand Bitcoin, because right now the ONLY way to learn it is by example
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2964 2014-02-14 19:56:17 <nezZario> ok, well here is my last question for the day and I'll get back to reading
2965 2014-02-14 19:56:36 <nezZario> what would be a more appropriate term for "From:" on bc.i's website?
2966 2014-02-14 19:56:40 <nezZario> Even if it was a sentence
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2971 2014-02-14 19:57:48 <Luke-Jr> nezZario: "random address that really has absolutely nothing to do with this transaction"
2972 2014-02-14 19:57:53 <nezZario> lol
2973 2014-02-14 19:57:57 <nezZario> clear enough then
2974 2014-02-14 19:58:01 <Imbue> hmm... receiving address of the input transaction?
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2976 2014-02-14 19:58:45 <gmaxwell> Imbue: yea, it's so but relative to _this_ transaction it may be pretty meaningless.
2977 2014-02-14 19:59:01 <Imbue> sure
2978 2014-02-14 19:59:21 Namworld has joined
2979 2014-02-14 19:59:25 <Luke-Jr> "address used to receive the bitcoins sent which created this utxo being consumed"
2980 2014-02-14 19:59:30 <Imbue> basically the important thing to realise is that this 'sending address' or 'from' or whatever you want to call it may not be useful to you
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2982 2014-02-14 19:59:50 <Imbue> it seems correct to say it's a 'from' address, though
2983 2014-02-14 19:59:58 <gmaxwell> Imbue: It really isn't.
2984 2014-02-14 20:00:05 <Luke-Jr> [Wednesday, February 12, 2014] [3:35:51 AM] <andytoshi> everyone in my family marries their sister's half-brother's first roommate, so my software will treat that as 'wife', thx for the help guies
2985 2014-02-14 20:00:09 <Luke-Jr> ^ best explanation so far
2986 2014-02-14 20:01:36 <gmaxwell> Imbue: thats kinda like saying that if I hand you a dollar and you had a magical way to tell which was the last location that dollar was mailed via the post office, you then decide that dollar is "from" that address.
2987 2014-02-14 20:01:45 <Imbue> gmaxwell: yes; exactly
2988 2014-02-14 20:01:50 <andytoshi> Imbue: (a) it's never useful because without context you can't tell what that address is, and if you do have context (eg you are communicating with your sender and he tells you what the address is), the address is redundant. (b) it's not a 'from' address, it isn't related to the person who's sending the money
2989 2014-02-14 20:01:51 <Imbue> i was just about to post that
2990 2014-02-14 20:02:04 <Imbue> it does not necessarily mean that 'person that controls this address initiated transaction'
2991 2014-02-14 20:02:13 <Imbue> merely that the final step before transmission to you is that address
2992 2014-02-14 20:02:37 <gmaxwell> not even necessarily final, as the private keys could have invisibly changed ownership several times.
2993 2014-02-14 20:03:00 <gmaxwell> (there are now things that can embed private keys in tamper resistant hardware and trade among devices, like a reusable physical bitcoin)
2994 2014-02-14 20:03:15 <Imbue> i suppose it is some level of ambiguity in the term 'from'
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2996 2014-02-14 20:03:40 <Imbue> if I drive from Paris to Berlin I would say that I came 'from' paris, but technically I also came 'from' the city which precedes berlin immediately
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2998 2014-02-14 20:04:00 <gmaxwell> Zeno's transaction analysis.
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3000 2014-02-14 20:04:02 <Imbue> i suppose that no-one actually uses the term in that way is enough to dismiss that usage
3001 2014-02-14 20:04:05 <Imbue> gmaxwell: :D
3002 2014-02-14 20:04:12 <nezZario> That's perfect
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3004 2014-02-14 20:04:35 <muhoo> Luke-Jr: has anyone been approached to write an oreilly book on bitcoin?
3005 2014-02-14 20:04:41 emowataji has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3006 2014-02-14 20:04:43 <Luke-Jr> not afaik
3007 2014-02-14 20:04:43 <muhoo> or approached them to write one?
3008 2014-02-14 20:04:51 <gmaxwell> But really the thing people almost always want out of a from is really a "refund address" or a "sender identifier" and it doesn't function as those— at least not reliably (which is worse than never functioning at all)
3009 2014-02-14 20:04:54 <muhoo> the world needs one, for sure.
3010 2014-02-14 20:05:04 <Luke-Jr> frankly, most people who might be approached are probably unqualified
3011 2014-02-14 20:05:07 <Imbue> gmaxwell: I agree
3012 2014-02-14 20:05:20 <Luke-Jr> it'd end up like media articles
3013 2014-02-14 20:05:28 <gmaxwell> the payment protocol lets you have a _real_ refund address though.
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3015 2014-02-14 20:05:49 <gmaxwell> plus, you can always ask for one before giving people an address to pay (excluding broadcast, anonymous, donation addresses)
3016 2014-02-14 20:06:15 <muhoo> Luke-Jr: not if it were written or even just edited by someone competent.
3017 2014-02-14 20:06:25 <Ademan> Why does the payment protocol use protocol buffers? I'd been meaning to ask that... Does the rest of the protocol use them? I assumed the serialization I saw in the source was just a custom binary packing
3018 2014-02-14 20:06:34 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: my point is they wouldn't be asking someone competent :P
3019 2014-02-14 20:06:48 emowataji has joined
3020 2014-02-14 20:06:58 <Luke-Jr> Ademan: just because satoshi does something stupid does not make it a good idea
3021 2014-02-14 20:07:35 <gavinandresen> muhoo: i vaguely remember Andreas Antonopoloosdodsouresadfous saying he was writing an Oreilley bitcoin book
3022 2014-02-14 20:07:42 <gmaxwell> oh boy
3023 2014-02-14 20:07:45 <gavinandresen> but that is exactly the type of thing I am good at misremembering
3024 2014-02-14 20:07:46 <Imbue> i can't really see how a bitcoin 'book' would end up being anything but a glorified collection of wikipedia articles
3025 2014-02-14 20:07:47 <Ademan> I guess my question was more "why not json?" for the payment protocol?
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3027 2014-02-14 20:08:06 <Imbue> wiki* not wikipedia.
3028 2014-02-14 20:08:12 <lechuga_> lol
3029 2014-02-14 20:08:12 <Imbue> it would look like Python's documentation.
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3031 2014-02-14 20:08:28 <Ademan> mostly glorious but with infuriating omissions?
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3034 2014-02-14 20:08:41 * Luke-Jr wonders if anyone competent in the area of bitcoin tech knowledge is also competent in the area of writing books.
3035 2014-02-14 20:08:49 <muhoo> that's the problem Luke-Jr
3036 2014-02-14 20:08:50 <Ademan> that's what editors are for
3037 2014-02-14 20:09:01 <Luke-Jr> Ademan: JSON is terrible
3038 2014-02-14 20:09:10 <Ademan> Luke-Jr: JSON is ubiquitous
3039 2014-02-14 20:09:18 <gavinandresen> Ademan: the embed-binary-data-in-JSON-for-encryption-and-signing standards are new and kinda scary.
3040 2014-02-14 20:09:20 <muhoo> oreilly likes partnerships and coauthors, usually. and maybe that's why. and they are very experienced editor
3041 2014-02-14 20:09:31 <muhoo> (s)
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3044 2014-02-14 20:10:48 <muhoo> but i'm saying this because it is apparent to me that it's necessary and inevitable at this point. more people need to be more educated, and that education would smooth bumps like the ones we're going through now.
3045 2014-02-14 20:11:27 <Ademan> gavinandresen: I guess I imagined just having a "signature" field on the json object which is a base64 encoded signature for the bytes we care about appended to each other (merchant name, address, value for each output, etc)
3046 2014-02-14 20:11:37 <Imbue> muhoo: that only makes sense if the book is any more accessible than the source or bitcoin.it as is
3047 2014-02-14 20:11:41 <Ademan> but I trust if I disagree with you guys I'm wrong lol
3048 2014-02-14 20:11:57 <lechuga_> bitcoin for dummies
3049 2014-02-14 20:12:01 <muhoo> Imbue: anyway, i'll drop it until the present emergency is passed, but just throwing it ou there
3050 2014-02-14 20:12:10 <Ademan> lechuga_: hrm, that sounds like a lucrative book to write
3051 2014-02-14 20:12:13 MoALTz_ has joined
3052 2014-02-14 20:12:16 <gavinandresen> Ademan: see http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/jose/
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3054 2014-02-14 20:13:01 <lechuga_> bitcoin for the otherwise technically inclined but ignorant of the implementation details
3055 2014-02-14 20:13:04 <Imbue> muhoo: I don't think it's a bad idea per se; I just feel like it would have to be more of a textbook
3056 2014-02-14 20:13:20 kosta_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3057 2014-02-14 20:13:23 <Imbue> muhoo: you can't learn mathematics without notation, for example
3058 2014-02-14 20:13:25 macromeez has left ()
3059 2014-02-14 20:13:31 <Imbue> i mean you 'can', but... no
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3063 2014-02-14 20:13:47 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: can you try the lastest version of 3671 with your wallet that has the doublespends? the defintion of a conflict has been expanded.
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3066 2014-02-14 20:15:01 <lechuga_> bitcoin pop-up book for the children
3067 2014-02-14 20:15:10 <Imbue> lol
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3069 2014-02-14 20:15:14 <muhoo> Imbue: could gloss over the deep math and refer peopel to scneier's applied crypto. just hit the basics, the theory of operation, what are script sigs, what are inputs and outputs, what tools and libraries are out there, a few illustrative sample projects in maybe python or something accessible
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3072 2014-02-14 20:15:21 <lechuga_> i can imagine a 3 page sequence where the pop-up blockchain gets bigger each turn of the page
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3077 2014-02-14 20:16:01 <lechuga_> and marvin the miner gets his reward
3078 2014-02-14 20:16:03 venzen has joined
3079 2014-02-14 20:16:11 <muhoo> lechuga_: whatever, if you look forward to millions of people using bitcoin for daily life, the amount of knowledge will need to be spread wider.
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3081 2014-02-14 20:16:43 <lechuga_> i think your point is valid im just amusing myself with OT
3082 2014-02-14 20:16:46 <muhoo> i remember when knowing what an ip address was or a router was, or a subnet mask, was esoteric knowlege only high priests were aware of
3083 2014-02-14 20:16:50 <Imbue> lechuga_: lol
3084 2014-02-14 20:16:58 <Imbue> lechuga_: who plays the role of the boogeyman
3085 2014-02-14 20:17:06 <lechuga_> obv the fed
3086 2014-02-14 20:17:45 <muhoo> now everyone has a fucking $50 router blinking away on their desk.
3087 2014-02-14 20:18:16 <muhoo>  /EOT
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3091 2014-02-14 20:22:12 <btiefert> -
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3094 2014-02-14 20:23:26 <gmaxwell> err.
3095 2014-02-14 20:23:58 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: latest version of 3671:
3096 2014-02-14 20:23:58 <gmaxwell> bitcoind  listtransactions  "*" 10000
3097 2014-02-14 20:23:58 <gmaxwell> error: no response from server
3098 2014-02-14 20:24:06 ahbritto_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3099 2014-02-14 20:24:06 <gmaxwell> but the daemon is still responding... didn't crash.
3100 2014-02-14 20:24:27 <gmaxwell> LOLOL
3101 2014-02-14 20:24:29 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: i'll try 3671, will be an hour or two, i'm eating and still scarring up my client to try and mall varints
3102 2014-02-14 20:24:41 Elio19 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3103 2014-02-14 20:24:43 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: don't bother yet, it's busted atm.
3104 2014-02-14 20:24:49 ahbritto_ has joined
3105 2014-02-14 20:24:55 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: it's mishandling generated coin.
3106 2014-02-14 20:25:05 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: actually if you have no mined bitcoin it should be okay.
3107 2014-02-14 20:25:23 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: it's okay to double spend nothingness. :)
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3119 2014-02-14 20:33:59 <venzen> script load nicklist.pl
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3121 2014-02-14 20:36:12 <venzen> apologies all, doing irssi client config while loggen in here.
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3145 2014-02-14 20:48:21 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I must be missing an IsCoinBase()… I'll generate a test case with an orphan block and see if I can reproduce
3146 2014-02-14 20:49:05 mtgox701 has joined
3147 2014-02-14 20:51:18 <gmaxwell> This wallet has something like 1682 generated txn, which it all through were conflicts of each other. It was not happy.
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3150 2014-02-14 20:53:21 <gavinandresen> ah… my test case has exactly one mature coinbase… I'll make it more complicated. Should be a trivial fix....
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3153 2014-02-14 20:55:14 macromeez has joined
3154 2014-02-14 20:56:24 <macromeez> Hi guys, I'm trying to use bitcoind from the command line to understand more of the protocol.  I've created a new address using 'bitcoind getnewaddress' and then sent it a small amount from my coinbase account.  However whenever i use 'bitcoind getreceivedbyaddress ADDRESS' it shows as 0 (It's been 20 minutes).  Am i missing a step here?
3155 2014-02-14 20:56:29 RoboTeddy has joined
3156 2014-02-14 20:56:35 <macromeez> sorry if that was posted multiple times, just learning how free node works
3157 2014-02-14 20:56:46 hellome has joined
3158 2014-02-14 20:57:27 <anddam> I'm trying to apply https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2802 to tag 0.8.6, I see 0.8.6 doesn't have the functions for disk access for blocks all, see last hunk of main.h patch
3159 2014-02-14 20:58:10 <anddam> what tag should I use for that pull request?
3160 2014-02-14 20:58:25 <anddam> the commits are from July 30
3161 2014-02-14 20:58:31 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: fixed
3162 2014-02-14 20:58:59 <porquilho> gmaxwell are you there?
3163 2014-02-14 20:59:29 Aslick has quit ()
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3166 2014-02-14 21:01:39 <anddam> does sipa hangs around here?
3167 2014-02-14 21:01:40 SuperDev has joined
3168 2014-02-14 21:01:58 _syslog has joined
3169 2014-02-14 21:01:59 <_syslog> asa
3170 2014-02-14 21:02:06 <_syslog> salut,
3171 2014-02-14 21:02:10 <flotsamuel> macromeez: that call will only return things with a confirmation by default. I'm guessing you could you could use minconf=0 as a parameter to see more (unless the command only uses the blockchain, idk).
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3174 2014-02-14 21:03:12 <_syslog> i'm having some (3 actually ) problems with jsonRPC. first problem is how can i get last N(number) transactions ?
3175 2014-02-14 21:03:33 ahbritto_ has joined
3176 2014-02-14 21:03:46 <_syslog> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list
3177 2014-02-14 21:03:49 <flotsamuel> anddam: he does, though not this channel as much. Nick: sipa
3178 2014-02-14 21:03:49 jRock is now known as ibuybtc
3179 2014-02-14 21:03:53 <andytoshi> _syslog: listtransactions '*' N
3180 2014-02-14 21:03:57 ahbritto has joined
3181 2014-02-14 21:04:00 ibuybtc is now known as iBuyBTC
3182 2014-02-14 21:04:32 <_syslog> andytoshi:  but thank you
3183 2014-02-14 21:04:49 <_syslog> *no but ( my mistake ) just thank you
3184 2014-02-14 21:04:50 austinhill has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3185 2014-02-14 21:04:50 <andytoshi> _syslog: you'll want to experiment a bit, it lists each transaction once per affected address
3186 2014-02-14 21:04:55 Anderkent]away has joined
3187 2014-02-14 21:05:00 <andytoshi> which might not be what you expect
3188 2014-02-14 21:05:02 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: whats our policy on showing items in output that are empty?  Right now this lists a walletconflicts with an empty list on every txn... I know some other things we omit when they aren't applicable.
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3195 2014-02-14 21:06:06 <macromeez> flotsamuel: Things should be confirmed by now then right?
3196 2014-02-14 21:06:13 <macromeez> or does something special need to happen for confirmations
3197 2014-02-14 21:06:30 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: for reference: immature coinbases currently cause a getbalance and getbalance "*" discrepency.
3198 2014-02-14 21:06:38 <macromeez> also, i passed 0 as the second parameter for minconf to be 0 and still nothing
3199 2014-02-14 21:06:41 <gmaxwell> (they show up in "*" but not regular getbalance)
3200 2014-02-14 21:06:50 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I think it is annoying to write code like:  if key exists in object… then....
3201 2014-02-14 21:06:52 <flotsamuel> It needs to get included in a "proven" block. Maybe around 10m. You can check that address in blockchain.info to see if it has received any blocks with it yet.
3202 2014-02-14 21:07:02 <flotsamuel> ( macromeez )
3203 2014-02-14 21:07:06 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I agree. plus people don't even know that the key is possible if its rare.
3204 2014-02-14 21:07:11 macro has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3205 2014-02-14 21:07:11 <anddam> flotsamuel: thanks
3206 2014-02-14 21:07:21 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: okay, just making sure it was intentional.
3207 2014-02-14 21:08:01 <macromeez> flotsamuel: here is the transaction, it looks like it has lots of confirmations - https://blockchain.info/address/1JVRGZ294XbzLi8mb1q8dr6i6K187Xmwun
3208 2014-02-14 21:08:05 <flotsamuel> gmaxwell: if you don't mind me asking, what constitutes an immature coinbase?
3209 2014-02-14 21:08:14 <macromeez> and I'm running bitcoind on my own laptop
3210 2014-02-14 21:08:21 tlweb has joined
3211 2014-02-14 21:08:44 <gmaxwell> flotsamuel: one which doesn't meet the network criteria for being spent— is less than 100 deep in the chain.
3212 2014-02-14 21:09:10 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: if you could test.
3213 2014-02-14 21:09:12 glebe has joined
3214 2014-02-14 21:09:45 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: yep, will do
3215 2014-02-14 21:10:13 <flotsamuel> OK, thanks, gmaxwell. There's been some talk of an issue that causes getbalance and the qt UI to not show the correct amount (regardless of transaction malleability). Is this related? I haven't been around enough for context.
3216 2014-02-14 21:10:37 <gmaxwell> flotsamuel: sorry, thats underdefined.
3217 2014-02-14 21:10:54 <gmaxwell> flotsamuel: "not show the correct" amount could mean a lot of things depending on what you think correct is.
3218 2014-02-14 21:12:09 <flotsamuel> gmaxwell, I suppose I mean: not show what the true balance is amongst receiving and change addresses even though any related transactions are 6+ confirmed. Fixed with a -salvagewallet.
3219 2014-02-14 21:12:16 <flotsamuel> It's completely possible I'm mixing things up though.
3220 2014-02-14 21:12:34 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
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3222 2014-02-14 21:13:25 <jgarzik> New testnet browser at http://test.bitcore.io/
3223 2014-02-14 21:13:34 <gmaxwell> flotsamuel: certantly this wouldn't be changed by a -salvagewallet. A lot of people get confused between the difference between getbalance and getbalance "" (listaccountbalances...)
3224 2014-02-14 21:13:44 glebe has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3225 2014-02-14 21:13:52 <jgarzik> mainnet http://live.bitcore.io/
3226 2014-02-14 21:14:03 <jgarzik> If there are some useful metrics to add, speak up.
3227 2014-02-14 21:15:00 <edcba> it seems youporn added more value to bitcoin that last week than bitcoin foundation...
3228 2014-02-14 21:15:01 <flotsamuel> OK, I might be thinking of something else. I had to reconstitute a wallet where even the Qt balance was missing some amount using -salvagewallet. It really bothers me that I never tracked down why.
3229 2014-02-14 21:15:11 <gmaxwell> edcba: as it should be.
3230 2014-02-14 21:15:37 <edcba> yeah
3231 2014-02-14 21:16:21 CBit has joined
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3233 2014-02-14 21:16:27 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: bah…  i'm an idiot....
3234 2014-02-14 21:16:28 <flotsamuel> macromeez: what does "getaccount" return for that address? Maybe getnewaddress doesn't like it when you don't give it an account? Might be better discussion for #Bitcoin at this point also.
3235 2014-02-14 21:16:42 venzen has quit (Quit: leaving)
3236 2014-02-14 21:17:40 <gmaxwell> It's fine to use getnewaddress without an account.
3237 2014-02-14 21:17:56 rdponticelli has left ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.")
3238 2014-02-14 21:18:17 <flotsamuel> gmaxwell: does it get added to the "local wallet" without an account specified?
3239 2014-02-14 21:18:40 Anderkent]away has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3240 2014-02-14 21:18:49 <flotsamuel> wiki reads: If [account] is specified (recommended), it is added to the address book so payments received with the address will be credited to [account].
3241 2014-02-14 21:19:12 <gmaxwell> recommended? using accounts is not recommended at all.
3242 2014-02-14 21:19:16 <gmaxwell> what page is that?
3243 2014-02-14 21:19:46 <flotsamuel> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list
3244 2014-02-14 21:19:58 iwantathink has quit (Quit: iwantathink)
3245 2014-02-14 21:21:25 <gmaxwell> flotsamuel: thanks.
3246 2014-02-14 21:21:50 <lechuga_> gmaxwell: is using sendmany from the default account when you have no other accounts still a perf issue?
3247 2014-02-14 21:22:22 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: ... why did you think it was a performance issue?
3248 2014-02-14 21:22:39 <lechuga_> i didnt think it was bu ti thought the general use of accounts at scale was
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3250 2014-02-14 21:23:02 <lechuga_> rather, i have no reason to believe it is
3251 2014-02-14 21:23:16 <gmaxwell> The only thing that the account setting does in send many is selects which account to charge for the send, and which to check the total on to decide if the spend is permitted.
3252 2014-02-14 21:23:33 <lechuga_> isnt the checking a potential perf problem
3253 2014-02-14 21:23:44 <lechuga_> if i were to have several accounts
3254 2014-02-14 21:24:08 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
3255 2014-02-14 21:24:11 Elio19 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3256 2014-02-14 21:24:25 <gmaxwell> it iterates all transactions regardless.
3257 2014-02-14 21:24:30 Starduster has quit (Quit: gotta go)
3258 2014-02-14 21:25:57 <lechuga_> so only querying for a balance is a perf problem at scale? is that fair to say?
3259 2014-02-14 21:27:02 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: There are, no doubt, many problems. If you'd like to expore them you can rig IsMine to return true and put the whole blockchain in your wallet. :P
3260 2014-02-14 21:27:25 <gmaxwell> but its an interesting point that that stupid balance test in sendmany needlessly slows down the operation.
3261 2014-02-14 21:27:25 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: ok, with the new 3671 my fee-change double spend txes now show each other under walletconflicts. nothing else has changed from the old version. i'll post that on github
3262 2014-02-14 21:28:17 <lechuga_> ive constructed my wallet in such a way to completely avoid accounts altogether
3263 2014-02-14 21:28:17 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: perhaps we could fastpath that out at least when no accounts are in use at all.
3264 2014-02-14 21:28:20 <lechuga_> and maintain them myself
3265 2014-02-14 21:28:33 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: as you probably should.
3266 2014-02-14 21:28:44 <lechuga_> and i havent tested but my concern is with using sendmany since it does use accounts as part of the api
3267 2014-02-14 21:28:59 <lechuga_> even if i only used the default
3268 2014-02-14 21:29:20 <lechuga_> right now i use sendtoaddress
3269 2014-02-14 21:29:23 <lechuga_> but im intending to optimize
3270 2014-02-14 21:29:56 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: one possibility is that we add an option to disable all those account balance checks entirely.
3271 2014-02-14 21:30:12 <gmaxwell> which would of course, avoid the performance hit there.
3272 2014-02-14 21:30:30 <lechuga_> ok
3273 2014-02-14 21:30:43 <lechuga_> but it does sound like i shoudl expect a perf issue even if my only account is ""
3274 2014-02-14 21:31:02 <lechuga_> wrt sendmany
3275 2014-02-14 21:31:28 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: well, same performance as calling getbalance.
3276 2014-02-14 21:32:36 <lechuga_> k
3277 2014-02-14 21:32:43 <lechuga_> i guess ill measure it at scale
3278 2014-02-14 21:32:48 <gavinandresen> the bitcoind wallet code is not optimized for large wallets, period.  "Patches welcome"
3279 2014-02-14 21:33:06 <lechuga_> well whats the definition of large wallet
3280 2014-02-14 21:33:10 <lechuga_> 3 of accounts?
3281 2014-02-14 21:33:11 <lechuga_> #
3282 2014-02-14 21:33:14 <jgarzik> millions of addresses
3283 2014-02-14 21:33:21 <lechuga_> ah ok
3284 2014-02-14 21:33:23 <gavinandresen> tens of thousands of transactions
3285 2014-02-14 21:33:43 <lechuga_> and when you say bitcoind wallet code you're just referring to the account abstraction correct?
3286 2014-02-14 21:33:53 <gavinandresen> no
3287 2014-02-14 21:34:23 <lechuga_> so trying to use a headless bitcoind at scale is fundamentally flawed?
3288 2014-02-14 21:34:33 <lechuga_> regardless of account use
3289 2014-02-14 21:34:37 <gavinandresen> using it for what?
3290 2014-02-14 21:34:46 <lechuga_> large wallet service
3291 2014-02-14 21:34:48 <lechuga_> bc.i scale
3292 2014-02-14 21:34:54 <gavinandresen> don't do that.
3293 2014-02-14 21:35:48 rivaler has joined
3294 2014-02-14 21:35:50 <lechuga_> because it will perform terribly?
3295 2014-02-14 21:35:59 <gavinandresen> Or if you do decide to do that, please make your changes tidy and well-tested and submit patches back to core.
3296 2014-02-14 21:36:11 <gavinandresen> yes, it will get slower and slower the more successful your service gets.
3297 2014-02-14 21:36:49 iwilcox_ has joined
3298 2014-02-14 21:36:50 <gavinandresen> When I say "it" I mean simple things like sending a transaction, because coin selection is not optimized for gazillions of unspent txouts in the wallet....
3299 2014-02-14 21:37:10 <lechuga_> ah ok
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3302 2014-02-14 21:37:34 iwilcox_ is now known as iwilcox
3303 2014-02-14 21:37:37 <lechuga_> does the foundation recommend some subset of libraries for building a scaleable wallet?
3304 2014-02-14 21:37:45 <gmaxwell> in any case, you can test all this without too much trouble by simply creating a simulated load in an isolated testnet or by importing a huge swath of the blockchain into the wallet.
3305 2014-02-14 21:37:59 <gavinandresen> no, the foundation doesn't have the resources to carefully evaluate codebases....
3306 2014-02-14 21:38:14 <lechuga_> do they have an unofficial anecdotal suggestions? :)
3307 2014-02-14 21:38:18 <lechuga_> any*
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3309 2014-02-14 21:38:50 <gmaxwell> I'd personally recommend you not run a business that holds other people's money, period. And certantly not when you haven't already assembled a team that was highly expert on these subjects.
3310 2014-02-14 21:39:04 <gavinandresen> +1
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3313 2014-02-14 21:39:35 <lechuga_> only one way to become an expert
3314 2014-02-14 21:39:39 <lechuga_> ime
3315 2014-02-14 21:39:42 <edcba> gmaxwell is such a sage
3316 2014-02-14 21:39:59 <gavinandresen> The businesses that have assembled teams with the expertise to build scalable wallets seem to be busy running their businesses, but maybe somebody would be willing to sell their solution
3317 2014-02-14 21:40:11 ZPK has joined
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3319 2014-02-14 21:40:35 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: if you're looking to enhance your personal expertise, go create a simulated enviroment and find things that break. I promise there will be things that break.
3320 2014-02-14 21:41:00 <gmaxwell> You can then look for solutions, fix them yourself, etc. And by doing so, you will gain expertise.
3321 2014-02-14 21:41:04 Elio19 has joined
3322 2014-02-14 21:41:47 <gmaxwell> last time I imported the whole blockchain into the wallet, I think the blockchain was ~2gb.
3323 2014-02-14 21:41:56 <lechuga_> well that's what i was going to do but im trying to make an initial choice of tools
3324 2014-02-14 21:42:18 <gmaxwell> I don't believe there are any highly scalable wallet tools publically available.
3325 2014-02-14 21:42:55 <gmaxwell> There are a number of services that do use bitcoind in some capacity, but I don't know what level of modifications they're running with.
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3328 2014-02-14 21:44:39 <lechuga_> so the suggestion seems to be distilled down to: give it a simulated shot with bitcoind and identify/fix why it doesnt work well for that use
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3331 2014-02-14 21:45:36 <lechuga_> which is helpful for me if so
3332 2014-02-14 21:46:08 <flotsamuel> I'm interested in starting an open source Kinesis implementation of bitcoin... but not *that* interested.
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3340 2014-02-14 21:48:26 <murr4y> so, i'm receiving extra data after getaddr -> addr. addr sends 1000 ips and works fine, but there's extra data after which is unrecognized. here's hexdump of successful addr: http://pastebin.com/ntsvLJck and the weird extra data: http://pastebin.com/4BDm7aQE - and a wireshark ss for good measure http://i.imgur.com/jTJN5vV.jpg
3341 2014-02-14 21:48:33 DjangoSi1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3342 2014-02-14 21:48:41 <murr4y> any idea what that data is? or how i can approach finding out?
3343 2014-02-14 21:50:16 <lechuga_> in any case, appreciate your guys time and advice, thx!
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3346 2014-02-14 21:51:47 <gmaxwell> murr4y: do you mean the 'checksum'?
3347 2014-02-14 21:51:58 ahmed_bodi is now known as cryptoninja
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3353 2014-02-14 21:52:31 <murr4y> well it's nearly 44k of data, much more than a checksum
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3383 2014-02-14 22:09:24 <Logicwax> <gmaxwell> nezZario: sure. I send you some funds for something. And then you decide, oops I need to return those funds. — instead of contacting me (or having prompted me for a refund address at the start) you use bc.i's idea of the 'from'.
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3385 2014-02-14 22:09:56 <Logicwax> gmaxwell:  so is the concept of "from:" addresses bad ONLY when using shared wallets or coinjoin?
3386 2014-02-14 22:10:00 chris3 has left ()
3387 2014-02-14 22:10:19 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: no, that list was not exhaustive there, and I went on to list some more things below.
3388 2014-02-14 22:11:03 <Logicwax> well i see you spoke of privkey changing ownership and such...
3389 2014-02-14 22:11:30 <Logicwax> but lets say im just running the bitcoin-qt client at home, and I pay a website.    they could refund back to my address and that would be okay, right?
3390 2014-02-14 22:11:47 <andytoshi> Logicwax: how would that know that that's ok?
3391 2014-02-14 22:11:53 sassamo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3392 2014-02-14 22:12:09 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: Yes, its harmless in _some_ situations, but results in irreversable loss in others.
3393 2014-02-14 22:12:14 <Logicwax> andytoshi:  regardless, i just want to know on a technical level if that would be harmless
3394 2014-02-14 22:12:15 <andytoshi> Logicwax: and however they find out, why can't you use that communication channel to just give them a new address, since you're expecting a new payment?
3395 2014-02-14 22:12:25 <btiefert> Logicwax, There is a chance that it would work out okay.  A *chance*
3396 2014-02-14 22:12:26 sassamo has joined
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3398 2014-02-14 22:12:39 <Luke-Jr> Logicwax: there is no concept of "from:"
3399 2014-02-14 22:12:49 <andytoshi> Logicwax: from the exchange's POV no, there is expected harm
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3401 2014-02-14 22:13:03 <Logicwax> andytoshi: well its nice to not use another side communication channel
3402 2014-02-14 22:13:04 <Luke-Jr> Logicwax: you could sue them for not refunding you and probably win.
3403 2014-02-14 22:13:30 <andytoshi> Logicwax: ...ok, but you need to use another communication channel if you intent to receive a payment.
3404 2014-02-14 22:13:33 <Imbue> Logicwax: the issue is that you are completely and irrevocably screwed if you send coins to an address that is not 'in use'
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3406 2014-02-14 22:13:49 <Imbue> Logicwax: if you are wrong in your assumption that you can refund to this address, you have lost those coins, gone
3407 2014-02-14 22:13:50 <Luke-Jr> Logicwax: without some communications channel, they don't have an address to make the payment!
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3409 2014-02-14 22:14:31 <Logicwax> i just always looked at it from the perspective of running my own client at home:  when i pool together inputs into an output, i am also saying "UTXOs sent to THIS ADDRESS" (being the from: addr)
3410 2014-02-14 22:14:32 <andytoshi> Logicwax: it would be nice not to stop all the time too, do you run through all traffic lights because there exist situations where you don't crash?
3411 2014-02-14 22:14:39 Azrael_- has joined
3412 2014-02-14 22:14:40 <Azrael_-> hi
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3414 2014-02-14 22:14:51 <Imbue> Logicwax: the 'private keys gone' issue is also not as academic as it seems; imagine that I used an address a year ago, then moved all the remaining coins to a new wallet and deleted it
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3416 2014-02-14 22:14:55 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: see also my dollar / post office example.
3417 2014-02-14 22:14:57 <Azrael_-> in the code, where can i find how many blocks it takes between difficulty-changes?
3418 2014-02-14 22:15:01 <Imbue> perhaps that's not best practice, but I imagine a lot of people do that
3419 2014-02-14 22:15:32 <Luke-Jr> Imbue: best practice does not dictate holding an EC private key beyond redeeming it once, IMO
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3421 2014-02-14 22:15:46 <andytoshi> Logicwax: what definition of 'from' makes what you just said a sequitor?
3422 2014-02-14 22:15:49 <Imbue> Luke-Jr:  :)
3423 2014-02-14 22:15:57 <Luke-Jr> personally, if I implemented a HD wallet, I *would* discard EC privkeys after using them
3424 2014-02-14 22:16:16 <Logicwax> Imbue: well, you would have the same problem if you provided a refund address and then a year down the road lost that key and moved everything to another wallet as well
3425 2014-02-14 22:16:23 c0rw1n has joined
3426 2014-02-14 22:16:30 <gmaxwell> Azrael_-: nTargetSpacing but please don't waste our time with altcoin discussion if thats where you're going.
3427 2014-02-14 22:16:40 <Luke-Jr> Logicwax: but it's your fault then
3428 2014-02-14 22:16:47 <Imbue> Logicwax: sure. the key point really is that you should ask before issuing a refund
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3431 2014-02-14 22:17:07 <Imbue> Logicwax: in the 'real world', you might be able to figure out a solution if you send funds to a no-longer-used bank account
3432 2014-02-14 22:17:09 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: yes, but at least you would expect that a refund address you handed out would potentially be recieving more coins, vs some paper wallet you only used once and trashed afterwards.
3433 2014-02-14 22:17:09 <andytoshi> Logicwax: an address is a payment destination. if you destroy the destination and don't tell the sender ofc you will lose money
3434 2014-02-14 22:17:11 <Azrael_-> gmaxwell: no, i just want to understand how all the coins calculate it and how it is done in the code. trying to understand the overall interactions
3435 2014-02-14 22:17:11 <Imbue> bitcoin doesn't work like that
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3439 2014-02-14 22:18:48 <Logicwax> andytoshi: yeah i agree with that as well
3440 2014-02-14 22:19:46 <Logicwax> I guess I just always thought of "from:" addresses as the address UTXOs were sent to, that you are now spending.      I know it breaks down when you consider shared wallets/coinjoin/exchanges/etc
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3443 2014-02-14 22:20:21 <gmaxwell> etc etc etc.. there really is no from, there are coins you are spending ... who were sent some place previously, but that may be of little relevant to anything anyone would call "from".
3444 2014-02-14 22:20:51 mattolson has joined
3445 2014-02-14 22:20:52 <Imbue> actually, I can sort of see the real-world-banking analogy now
3446 2014-02-14 22:21:09 <Logicwax> well the only relevancy would be that you at some point had control of the "previos place"
3447 2014-02-14 22:21:13 <Imbue> if you could actually see the 'from' on a bank transfer, you might see something silly like From: <bank provider>
3448 2014-02-14 22:21:15 <ArthurB> could someone explain me a little bit the logic behind op_checksig regarding op_codeseparator?
3449 2014-02-14 22:21:16 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: you may not have.
3450 2014-02-14 22:21:28 Doug__ has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
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3452 2014-02-14 22:21:50 <Luke-Jr> ArthurB: obsolete design decisions that were removed before bitcoin stabilised
3453 2014-02-14 22:22:05 <andytoshi> ArthurB: i think the idea was that you could have different parties sign different parts of the transaction
3454 2014-02-14 22:22:06 <ArthurB>  why not just sign the whole tx_out?
3455 2014-02-14 22:22:14 <ArthurB> ah
3456 2014-02-14 22:22:28 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: for example say you owe me 1 btc.  I want to buy a castle from Imbue, which handidly costs 1 BTC.  I go to you and say "hey, that 1 BTC? send it 1o <address I got from Imbue>" and you do.  I never controlled your wallet.
3457 2014-02-14 22:22:42 <gmaxwell> (and likewise in many other examples too)
3458 2014-02-14 22:22:43 <berndj> gmaxwell, what's that there-is-no-from-address challenge tx again? that really helped reset my thinking
3459 2014-02-14 22:22:44 <Luke-Jr> also, sPK + sS used to be concatenated
3460 2014-02-14 22:22:51 <Imbue> no way!
3461 2014-02-14 22:22:52 <Luke-Jr> not run independently like they are now
3462 2014-02-14 22:22:55 <Imbue> you're not getting my castle :<
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3464 2014-02-14 22:23:43 <gmaxwell> berndj: maybe it was this one? 54fabd73f1d20c980a0686bf0035078e07f69c58437e4d586fb29aa0bee9814f  "what is the from address there?"
3465 2014-02-14 22:23:50 <berndj> yes that one
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3467 2014-02-14 22:24:36 <nezZario> wow, that's a good example
3468 2014-02-14 22:24:41 <Logicwax> gmaxwell: but that doesnt make sense.....if you transfer that to any other analogy, you were a 3rd party mediator.    thats like me paypaling Imbue, and then he eventually refunds me back.  you would never be able to lay a claim with paypal
3469 2014-02-14 22:24:41 <btiefert> gmaxwell I love how you just described web wallets using debts and 3rd parties :)
3470 2014-02-14 22:24:49 <ArthurB> so when making a signature with say sihhash_all, you are basically signing the input and all the outputs, correct?
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3472 2014-02-14 22:25:04 <andytoshi> berndj: https://blockchain.info/tx/d72f8aca7159e8a21ae32d8b91ff12196eb9ea7d9f944d3b41b8d47c55d2351d is another example which doesn't even have any funny scripts
3473 2014-02-14 22:25:29 <Imbue> Logicwax: it's simply meant to illustrate that the inputs are not necessarily 'owned' by the person you think
3474 2014-02-14 22:25:36 <ArthurB> i mean the connected output
3475 2014-02-14 22:25:41 <Imbue> Logicwax: if I withdraw from Mt Gox to your address, the 'from' address is going to be Gox
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3477 2014-02-14 22:25:44 <berndj> Logicwax, think of a dead drop. you know how to get the money (it's the grey bag in the trashcan at the corner of Nth ave and Mth st) but you can't know who it came from, in the general case
3478 2014-02-14 22:25:57 <btiefert> Logicwax: gmaxwell just accurately described the bulk of actual use of bitcoin; except the person that owes you the BTC is the *exchange*, which you direct to pay to the castle seller
3479 2014-02-14 22:26:17 <nezZario> andytoshi: what's special about that tx you posted?  d72f8aca...
3480 2014-02-14 22:26:17 <Logicwax> yeah...and I totally agree with that in terms of mtgox/exchanges/whatever
3481 2014-02-14 22:26:37 <andytoshi> nezZario: at least one of those inputs is mine, but probably not all of them and i don't remember which one(s)
3482 2014-02-14 22:26:51 <Logicwax> in that case though, its implied.   mtgox is handling my money.  they should get the refund
3483 2014-02-14 22:26:54 <andytoshi> was mine*
3484 2014-02-14 22:27:04 <Luke-Jr> Logicwax: …
3485 2014-02-14 22:27:09 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: I mean I just described something using ordinary people— and I've made transactions like that.
3486 2014-02-14 22:27:18 <gmaxwell> Where I bought funds using funds someone else owed me.
3487 2014-02-14 22:27:19 <berndj> Logicwax, think of the output script of your input as more like specifying a condition under which they're spendable, rather than as a "place" where they are
3488 2014-02-14 22:27:23 <gmaxwell> er bought things.
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3490 2014-02-14 22:28:27 <btiefert> well said, berndj
3491 2014-02-14 22:28:45 <btiefert> The condition just *might* be that of demonstrating custody.
3492 2014-02-14 22:28:50 <berndj> sure, in 99.999999999999% of transactions today, that condition happens to be "if you can unlock the door of the house at address X", but it isn't necessarily so
3493 2014-02-14 22:29:01 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: sorry, I'm not sure you're an ordinary person.. :p
3494 2014-02-14 22:29:20 <nezZario> on a slightly unrelated note, I can't get getrawtransaction to work for all transactions.. I read on a forum thread that the input has to be unspent.. but didn't look at it long
3495 2014-02-14 22:29:22 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I'm pretty sure that kind of trade happens in communities even in the USD world pretty often.
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3497 2014-02-14 22:29:31 <Luke-Jr> sure
3498 2014-02-14 22:29:36 <Luke-Jr> just saying, bad example :P
3499 2014-02-14 22:29:40 <gmaxwell> nezZario: unless you have a txindex it only works for unspent inputs.
3500 2014-02-14 22:29:51 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well I wanted ones that involved no services with accounts in-care-of.
3501 2014-02-14 22:30:01 <nezZario> is a txindex just an integer?
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3503 2014-02-14 22:30:08 <Luke-Jr> boolean
3504 2014-02-14 22:30:13 <gmaxwell> and didn't involve something really complicated and rocketscience.
3505 2014-02-14 22:30:24 <gmaxwell> nezZario: note, enabling it requires a reindex, which takes a while.
3506 2014-02-14 22:30:34 <nezZario> ooooh...
3507 2014-02-14 22:30:41 <nezZario> i was wondering, I didn't see it in the 'help'
3508 2014-02-14 22:30:57 <nezZario> or it didn't work, one or the other, it was a few hours ago
3509 2014-02-14 22:31:23 <gmaxwell> it's a setting you put in your bitcoin.conf.
3510 2014-02-14 22:31:34 <nezZario> was googling but thanks :)  i'll look
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3519 2014-02-14 22:38:53 <etotheipi_> is the S-value parity the only feature of the new rules that makes it a hard-fork?   i.e. if we did everything else we could make the updates as a softfork...?
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3522 2014-02-14 22:40:25 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: huh? there is nothing that makes it a hard fork at all.
3523 2014-02-14 22:40:51 <etotheipi_> aren't we talking about doing a hard fork to fix malleability in the long run?
3524 2014-02-14 22:41:02 <etotheipi_> (sorry I've been out of the loop and trying to piece things together... little late to the party)
3525 2014-02-14 22:41:03 <gmaxwell> No. A soft fork is fine.
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3527 2014-02-14 22:41:36 <etotheipi_> so we are just changing isStandard()/relay rules, not validity, to fix the malleability?
3528 2014-02-14 22:41:41 <Logicwax> gmaxwell: ok, how about this.  what if an exchange pooled together the funds in your balance, and sent them to a new address.   then after that was confirmed, used that address to send funds under your direction
3529 2014-02-14 22:42:07 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: eventually validity will be changed, but since it is a strict reduction in things which are valid its just a softfork.
3530 2014-02-14 22:42:10 <Logicwax> wouldn't this allow the exchange to be just like a regular client at home on your pc?   so that every TX you send truely does come from an address you own?
3531 2014-02-14 22:42:13 <Imbue> Logicwax: then under those very specific conditions you may be able to consider that a 'from' address
3532 2014-02-14 22:42:14 <lifeofcray> GOG IS GIVING AWAY DUNGEON KEEPER! GET IT NOW! GOGOGO!
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3534 2014-02-14 22:42:23 <Imbue> Logicwax: but if you already know that, then you already know an address anyway
3535 2014-02-14 22:42:37 <Imbue> so you don't need to care about the one presented in the transaction
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3537 2014-02-14 22:43:34 <maaku> Logicwax: why do you want a from address? It's not something that can be enforced at the protocol level.
3538 2014-02-14 22:43:56 <Logicwax> i don't.  im not making an argument for it either.  im just trying to understand.
3539 2014-02-14 22:44:32 <Luke-Jr> it's pretty easy to get a return address, actually
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3541 2014-02-14 22:44:40 <Imbue> Logicwax: well, you can clearly create transactions for which the input addresses are controlled by a person who accepts returns
3542 2014-02-14 22:44:41 <Luke-Jr> just refuse to give a payment address until you're provided one :D
3543 2014-02-14 22:44:57 <Imbue> Logicwax:your issue is ensuring that this is true without using a side channel
3544 2014-02-14 22:45:05 <Imbue> Logicwax: and if you use the side channel then it is pointless
3545 2014-02-14 22:45:10 <Logicwax> and i totally see how this all breaks down with any example involving a shared system (exchanges, shared wallets, whatever)
3546 2014-02-14 22:45:19 <Luke-Jr> Imbue: you ALWAYS need a side channel, period.
3547 2014-02-14 22:45:28 <Logicwax> but on a running-the-client-at-home, i can see the example of a "From:" address
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3549 2014-02-14 22:45:32 <Luke-Jr> you need some way to convey the scriptPubKey or address
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3551 2014-02-14 22:45:47 <maaku> yes if you explicitly state/assume that you will only receive inputs from pubkey scripts that the sender actually owns and from a wallet that can handle reused addresses,
3552 2014-02-14 22:46:04 <maaku> and half a dozen other conditions i'm too lazy to think of, then yes it will work (by definition)
3553 2014-02-14 22:46:12 <Imbue> Luke-Jr: lol, duh. :D sure.
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3555 2014-02-14 22:46:27 <maaku> but since all those assumptions are useless in practice, it's not very interesting to pursue
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3558 2014-02-14 22:47:42 <Eliel> It's always possible to create a new address using a public key and txid that is redeemable only by the person with the public key. It'd be feasible to create a standard for using that to create a return address. However, this kind of a standard is useless unless every service supports it.
3559 2014-02-14 22:48:03 <Logicwax> maaku:  thanks.   thats what I needed to hear.   and i wouldn't say useless in practice, as it would be the case with the QT client running on a pc
3560 2014-02-14 22:48:05 <Eliel> umm, I mean, redeemable only by the person with the private key corresponding to the public key
3561 2014-02-14 22:48:18 <maaku> Logicwax: no Logicwax, it doesn't work in that case either
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3563 2014-02-14 22:49:15 <btiefert> Quick question: do we happen to have a wishlist compiled of non-core development needs?  e.g.: test frameworks, network simulations, test environments?  I'm trying to find the best way to contribute my IT automation skillset to the effort.
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3568 2014-02-14 22:50:15 <Logicwax> maaku: well if i pay some website with my QT client at home, they easily refund me back by sending back to the address all of my inputs were originally sent to
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3570 2014-02-14 22:50:32 <Logicwax> or at least, one of my inputs were originally sent to
3571 2014-02-14 22:50:37 <maaku> Logicwax: how does the service provider know you paid with a standard transaction using the reference client?
3572 2014-02-14 22:50:41 <Luke-Jr> btiefert: unit tests!
3573 2014-02-14 22:50:51 <Luke-Jr> btiefert: unit tests are DESPERATELY needed
3574 2014-02-14 22:50:57 <Logicwax> maaku: they don't.  i was just saying, it *could* work in that case
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3577 2014-02-14 22:51:20 <maaku> Logicwax: no, it doesn't. "works" means they can send it back while being sure it's not going into oblivion
3578 2014-02-14 22:51:39 <maaku> if that's not what you mean by "works", then it's not a very useful word
3579 2014-02-14 22:51:52 <Logicwax> ok ok symantecs
3580 2014-02-14 22:51:59 <btiefert> Luke-Jr, Perfect.  What's the best way to get started?  Just find a function that's not unit tested and do classic input permutations?  Or do we have a wishlist of specific things in most need of unit tests?
3581 2014-02-14 22:52:30 <Luke-Jr> btiefert: everything really needs unit tests, but testing the consensus-critical code is most important
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3583 2014-02-14 22:52:43 <Logicwax> but yeah, i meant technically that specific experiment would work.  you could refund me back if i used my Qt client.   i could over a sideband channel say "hey im busy driving on the road right now, just refund me back at my address"
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3585 2014-02-14 22:53:10 <maaku> Logicwax: but ifyou have that side channel, you could just as easily send a new refund address
3586 2014-02-14 22:53:13 <berndj> it would be a billion times easier if the code were in a library one could link to
3587 2014-02-14 22:53:14 <maaku> which would be better and safer
3588 2014-02-14 22:53:23 <Luke-Jr> berndj: it is now. kinda.
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3590 2014-02-14 22:53:43 <Logicwax> in fact thats probably a better way to phrase it.   as in, I tell someone "hey im not at my computer right now, can you just send back to my address?  i used the qt reference client"
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3592 2014-02-14 22:54:10 <Luke-Jr> Logicwax: and then it shows up with a label for "Payment for contract work in 2011"
3593 2014-02-14 22:54:19 <btiefert> Logicwax, you might be interested in reading about BIP 70.
3594 2014-02-14 22:54:20 <Luke-Jr> or doesn't show up at all, since it was a change address
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3596 2014-02-14 22:55:15 <Logicwax> yeah heh, but at least you'd have the money
3597 2014-02-14 22:55:24 <Logicwax> i mean, totally not the way to go about things.   i agree
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3601 2014-02-14 22:56:53 <Logicwax> btiefert: thanks, i'll read that
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3604 2014-02-14 22:58:00 <Logicwax> i was thinking that the OP_DROP / provable prunable feature they are adding could be used for this purpose
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3606 2014-02-14 22:59:39 <maaku> Logicwax: it could but it's not a good idea; read BIP-70
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3634 2014-02-14 23:14:09 <muhoo> Luke-Jr: is there a to-do list of tests needed? a code-coverage tool output? is that somethign a new contributor could dive in and start hacking on?
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3638 2014-02-14 23:14:52 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: probably, but I don't know where
3639 2014-02-14 23:14:53 <muhoo> writing tests is usually a pretty good grunt-level entry-level task on most projects
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3641 2014-02-14 23:15:17 <Luke-Jr> once upon a time, the pull request tester complained if you increased code not covered by tests :P
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3643 2014-02-14 23:15:20 <gmaxwell> muhoo: I run coverage periodically, but it's not very complete.  and yes I do recommend tests to people as a good way to start contributing.
3644 2014-02-14 23:15:30 <muhoo> Luke-Jr: i remember that! i think bluematt wrote it
3645 2014-02-14 23:15:32 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yes, but it was buggy so it got turned off. :(
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3647 2014-02-14 23:16:14 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: pull tester is always buggy <.<
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3649 2014-02-14 23:16:42 <muhoo> well if there's a list somewhere of tests needed, i'll at least have a look at it. i'm feeling like i want to help but i'm not sure how. time/braincells are limited at the moment.
3650 2014-02-14 23:16:54 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: almost everything needs tests still :/
3651 2014-02-14 23:17:57 <muhoo> and i'm fighting the little voice in the back of my head screaming "please don't make me write c++!"
3652 2014-02-14 23:18:42 <muhoo> but hey, tests are like stfu, there's nothing hard about that, it's just tedium.
3653 2014-02-14 23:19:17 <sipa> good tests are hard... but indeed rarely as exciting as writing code that actually does something
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3655 2014-02-14 23:20:11 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: if you prefer to get started on C, libblkmaker probably has some more potential tests that could be written too
3656 2014-02-14 23:20:45 <Luke-Jr> and it implements concepts common to bitcoind, so you can possibly move straight from those to the equivalent there
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3661 2014-02-14 23:23:57 <gmaxwell> I'm really bummed about people joining #cgminer and asking how to solo and conman directing them to "solopool" because cgminer can't solomine on its own w/ bitcoind. :(
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3664 2014-02-14 23:24:52 <Mallstromm> gmaxwell: why?
3665 2014-02-14 23:25:13 <etotheipi_> any idea how much tx mutation is actually occurring/succeeding?
3666 2014-02-14 23:25:30 <etotheipi_> sounds like there was tons of double-spends the other day
3667 2014-02-14 23:25:57 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: join me in #solopool to lightly try to warn people off without hopefully getting banned? XD
3668 2014-02-14 23:25:57 <gavinandresen> muhoo : moving the pulltester virtual machine to Precise, or, even better, figuring out how to make pull-tester build using the gitian-builder scripts, would be mega-awesome
3669 2014-02-14 23:25:59 <sipa> i see transactions with non-standard pushes (which are almost certainly intentional mutations) every few minutes
3670 2014-02-14 23:26:10 <gmaxwell> Mallstromm: because a major advantage of solo mining is not delegating your control over mining to some unknown third party.
3671 2014-02-14 23:26:21 <Mallstromm> right
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3677 2014-02-14 23:29:08 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: btw, someone is trying to solo mine on Mac with Bitcoin-Qt (in #eligius ), any ideas why that might fail?
3678 2014-02-14 23:29:17 <Luke-Jr> seems -server isn't working
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3680 2014-02-14 23:31:02 <gmaxwell> no idea.
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3692 2014-02-14 23:44:47 <maaku> another reason for an integrated p2pool sometime in the future...
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3695 2014-02-14 23:46:04 <Luke-Jr> maaku: bad idea
3696 2014-02-14 23:46:22 <Luke-Jr> favouring one pool just because solo mining is broken on Mac..?
3697 2014-02-14 23:46:49 <gmaxwell> if -server isn't working p2pool isn't going to work for that user.
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