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  37 2014-02-16 00:48:36 <implr> I've got a question regarding the key reuse issue
  38 2014-02-16 00:48:45 n0n0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  39 2014-02-16 00:49:05 <implr> lets say I were implementing a webwallet/exchange/any other service that holds large sums of money
  40 2014-02-16 00:49:21 <implr> obviously most of the funds would be in cold storage
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  43 2014-02-16 00:49:53 <implr> which would be implemented by creating a p2sh multisig address, where each key is held by a different person
  44 2014-02-16 00:50:26 <implr> but then I either have to reuse that address(and keys)
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  47 2014-02-16 00:51:21 <implr> or generate new keys and create a new one, but that would mean that all those people would have to meet IRL to safely exchange keys
  48 2014-02-16 00:51:48 <implr> and that might be difficult
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  53 2014-02-16 00:59:07 <Ademan> I know the transaction malleability issue isn't new, but does it have any implications for the payment protocol? It looked like users actually send entire transactions to the merchant, so as long as the merchant pulls the input/output information out of those transactions, everything should work normally, right?
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  55 2014-02-16 01:00:14 <lnovy> malleability will be no issue at all when protocols are out
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  60 2014-02-16 01:05:26 <jgarzik> 2014-02-16 01:02:59 init message: Verifying wallet...
  61 2014-02-16 01:05:27 <jgarzik> 2014-02-16 01:02:59 dbenv.open LogDir=/home/jgarzik/bitcoin/data/database ErrorF
  62 2014-02-16 01:05:27 <jgarzik> ile=/home/jgarzik/bitcoin/data/db.log
  63 2014-02-16 01:05:27 <jgarzik> 2014-02-16 01:02:59 Renamed wallet.dat to wallet.1392512579.bak
  64 2014-02-16 01:05:27 <jgarzik> 2014-02-16 01:02:59 Error: Salvage found errors, all data may not be recoverable
  65 2014-02-16 01:05:27 <jgarzik> .
  66 2014-02-16 01:05:29 <jgarzik> 2014-02-16 01:02:59 Salvage(aggressive) found no records in wallet.1392512579.ba
  67 2014-02-16 01:05:31 <jgarzik> k.
  68 2014-02-16 01:05:33 <jgarzik> 2014-02-16 01:02:59 : wallet.dat corrupt, salvage failed
  69 2014-02-16 01:05:50 <jgarzik> certainly worrisome.
  70 2014-02-16 01:06:14 <kjj> what happened to it?
  71 2014-02-16 01:06:14 <thrasher`> ouch
  72 2014-02-16 01:06:16 <thrasher`> any backups?
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  75 2014-02-16 01:08:54 <jgarzik> kjj, in theory nothing, besides running bitcoind git HEAD on it
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  77 2014-02-16 01:09:05 <jgarzik> thrasher`, yes, have backups
  78 2014-02-16 01:09:16 <jgarzik> But this should not have gotten corrupted in the first place :/
  79 2014-02-16 01:09:43 <wallet42> HD fail?
  80 2014-02-16 01:10:10 <jgarzik> nope.  encrypted+checksummed filesystem.  nothing as simple as that.
  81 2014-02-16 01:10:27 <jgarzik> I wish it were that easy :)
  82 2014-02-16 01:11:01 <Apocalyptic> jgarzik, so you're implying the corruption was software-induced ?
  83 2014-02-16 01:11:23 <kjj> is the wallet still bdb in head?
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  86 2014-02-16 01:12:54 <jgarzik> kjj, yes
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  89 2014-02-16 01:14:32 <kjj> I haven't been following the commits, but in general scrubbing the keys out of the wallet.dat file isn't easy to do
  90 2014-02-16 01:15:30 <kjj> did this come from the head version?  or did you run head once, then revert?
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  97 2014-02-16 01:25:03 <maaku> knotwork: just as likely your system clock is out of sync
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 119 2014-02-16 01:45:37 <Ademan> lnovy: Sorry I don't understand that answer. You referred to "protocols" when I was specifically referring to the payment protocol.
 120 2014-02-16 01:47:01 <Ademan> maaku: I was hoping to rebase on/steal ideas from your coinjoin, is there any chance you'll be pushing soon?
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 123 2014-02-16 01:48:25 <Ademan> last we talked I was fighting python-bitcoinlib over some inconsistent hashing, otherwise I'd have pushed my changes (for what little they're worth)
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 126 2014-02-16 01:49:51 <Ademan> (I know you're using python-bitcoin not python-bitcoinlib, but I opted for python-bitcoinlib due to ubiquity and my own familiarity)
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 187 2014-02-16 02:26:54 <maaku> Ademan: I'm reformulating it into a BIP and will probably just start work on a bitcoin-qt integrated solution directly
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 189 2014-02-16 02:32:21 <maaku> Ademan: the purpose of the python coinjoin client was to experiment with the basic protocol & ideas
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 191 2014-02-16 02:32:52 <maaku> between work I've done, and what andytoshi and others have done, I think there's enough experience to formulate a reasonable integrated p2p solution
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 199 2014-02-16 02:37:01 <jcorgan> maaku: will you be documenting this as an extension to the wire protocol then, so it isn't bitcoin-qt specific?
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 203 2014-02-16 02:39:21 <maaku> jcorgan: yes
 204 2014-02-16 02:39:37 <maaku> that's what the bip would be, a wire protocol extension
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 207 2014-02-16 02:39:53 <maaku> and my first implementation of the bip would be in bitcoind directly
 208 2014-02-16 02:40:01 <jcorgan> cool.  very much looking forward to it.
 209 2014-02-16 02:40:31 <maaku> i don't know a timeframe .. it's what I was working on before this malleability snafu
 210 2014-02-16 02:41:02 <jcorgan> sure
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 218 2014-02-16 02:44:19 <Ademan> maaku: oh... well good to know. I suppose there's nothing useful I can contribute to this then? you were obviously significantly farther along than I knew
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 221 2014-02-16 02:45:08 <maaku> Ademan: just in terms of reformulating the protocol messages. the other stuff hasn't really been worked on
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 223 2014-02-16 02:45:23 <maaku> and those changes (which are more like haphazard notes) are what I'm putting into the BIP
 224 2014-02-16 02:45:40 <maaku> and on the malleability front i'm going to try my hand at sipa's soft fork proposal. we'll see how long that takes
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 226 2014-02-16 02:47:33 <maaku> Ademan: my ideas for handling coin selection for mixing, and anonymity set size estimation, etc. are all still just that - ideas
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 228 2014-02-16 02:50:31 <jcorgan> also, while your first implementation will be for the full node bitcoin-qt, please consider how it might work differently if it were to be added as a capability to an SPV node
 229 2014-02-16 02:50:36 <jcorgan> (if at all)
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 233 2014-02-16 02:52:40 <maaku> jcorgan: it shouldn't matter, as it is all wallet code
 234 2014-02-16 02:53:47 <jcorgan> well, i'll have to wait for the bip, but i'd assume you are defining new p2p messages for what will have previously been out-of-band stuff?
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 236 2014-02-16 02:54:10 <maaku> yeah
 237 2014-02-16 02:55:29 <maaku> optional of course, to just the nodes which expose the joint-transaction service bit
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 242 2014-02-16 02:57:41 <jcorgan> right then.  i'm not trying to pick nits but that isn't just wallet code.  is it correct to assume that the  joint-transaction bit with be orthogonal to any other capabilities?  again, i'm just wanting to ensure that a lightweight wallet that operates purely in SPV mode over p2p would still be able to do CJ sessions
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 244 2014-02-16 03:02:56 <maaku> jcorgan: right i'm saying it shouldn't need to interact with the UTXO chainstate database, just the wallet outputs. i assume that's what you mean by full node
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 247 2014-02-16 03:03:27 <maaku> without being able to check the spend status of other outputs you are more vulnerable to DoS (UTXO committments alleviate this)
 248 2014-02-16 03:04:59 <maaku> but checking spend status of other outputs is not *required* for operation
 249 2014-02-16 03:05:00 <jcorgan> i mean NODE_COINJOIN (or whatever you call it) must not also require NODE_NETWORK in the services field
 250 2014-02-16 03:06:19 <maaku> remind me what NODE_NETWORK means please?
 251 2014-02-16 03:06:38 <jcorgan> it means you are a full node that can be asked for blocks from your local copy of the full blockchain
 252 2014-02-16 03:07:08 <maaku> yes that is not required
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 259 2014-02-16 03:10:52 <jcorgan> very exciting
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 271 2014-02-16 03:14:21 <jcorgan> back when CJ was first proposed, there was the idea that 2-party transaction joining could be automated, with the notion that it would save space on the blockchain
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 275 2014-02-16 03:16:19 <jcorgan> probably too controversial
 276 2014-02-16 03:16:59 <gmaxwell> it requires getting a lot of details right.
 277 2014-02-16 03:17:13 <gmaxwell> and dealing with the fact that your txn has doublepsend exposure from the other participant.
 278 2014-02-16 03:18:11 <gmaxwell> a related idea I had later is that it would be neat if there were a future extension to the payment protocol where you could specify "while writing this txn to me, please also spend this other coin"  e.g. allowing the payment requester to have the payments consolidate some of their other holdings.
 279 2014-02-16 03:18:33 <gmaxwell> also also obsecure the amount actually being paid.
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 282 2014-02-16 03:19:05 <gmaxwell> e.g. 2-party CJ with the person you're paying. But this removes the doublespend risks.
 283 2014-02-16 03:19:19 <gmaxwell> (e.g. that the other CJer will doublespend and force you to reissue the transaction)
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 286 2014-02-16 03:22:50 <kjj> gmaxwell: wouldn't that just be a pp request with multiple endpoints?
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 289 2014-02-16 03:23:12 <gmaxwell> kjj: no, not endpoints _inputs_.
 290 2014-02-16 03:23:38 <gmaxwell> "and spend this 10 BTC coin too, and add it to the output(s) you're paying me"
 291 2014-02-16 03:23:43 <kjj> ahh.  erm, that gets tricky
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 294 2014-02-16 03:24:11 <kjj> the protocol becomes a 2 way thing
 295 2014-02-16 03:24:27 <gmaxwell> it should be in any case, so you can return a refund address.
 296 2014-02-16 03:24:56 <gmaxwell> PP provides _very_ little value if you can't reliably provide a refund address.
 297 2014-02-16 03:25:04 <gmaxwell> might as well give someone a freeking bitcoin uri.
 298 2014-02-16 03:25:18 <kjj> a *signed* bitcoin URL.  :)
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 300 2014-02-16 03:25:56 <gmaxwell> in any case, I was suggesting it as an optional thing in any case, as an extension some users wouldn't understand it and could just ignore it.
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 305 2014-02-16 03:26:59 <kjj> I haven't paid that much attention to work on the protocol since I made my objections to PB known
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 309 2014-02-16 03:28:19 <kjj> but, such an extension to it would have some implications that may be hard to figure out in advance.  does it make the payer a willing accomplice in money laundering if used?  for example
 310 2014-02-16 03:29:07 shaman_ua has joined
 311 2014-02-16 03:29:45 <gmaxwell> kjj: it's just consolidating bills. E.g. "if you pay me with that 10 I can give you a 20 in change". kind of thing. But it also means that you can consolidate your bills with less private data leakage to the general public.
 312 2014-02-16 03:30:39 <gmaxwell> (and less transaction volume)
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 314 2014-02-16 03:31:20 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I think some people consider that to be laundry :/
 315 2014-02-16 03:31:22 <gmaxwell> In commerce people have a requirement to keep their transaction values private from their competition and from other customers.
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 319 2014-02-16 03:32:28 <ajoul> Looking to hire someone for a small task
 320 2014-02-16 03:32:37 <ajoul> I need a pool set up
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 323 2014-02-16 03:33:48 <Luke-Jr> that's no small task, and not on-topic here.
 324 2014-02-16 03:34:09 <Luke-Jr> pools require ongoing maintenance, and you generally want the person setting it up to be the one who will maintain it
 325 2014-02-16 03:34:28 <ajoul> I just need someone to set it up leave maintaince out of the question
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 327 2014-02-16 03:34:40 <ajoul> and yeah I am willing to hire
 328 2014-02-16 03:35:46 <Luke-Jr> ajoul: try #bitcoin-otc
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 528 2014-02-16 07:38:00 <shaileshg> with following command: lockunspent unlock? [{"txid":txid,"vout":n}]
 529 2014-02-16 07:38:00 <shaileshg> but it is constantly giving me Error: Error parsing JSON:[{txid
 530 2014-02-16 07:38:29 <kjj> figure out how to quote it properly for your system
 531 2014-02-16 07:38:36 <gmaxwell> add single quotes most likely
 532 2014-02-16 07:38:38 <kjj> most likely, you need to wrap the whole thing in ''
 533 2014-02-16 07:38:52 <shaileshg> kjj: ok. trying out
 534 2014-02-16 07:39:53 flotsamu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 535 2014-02-16 07:41:01 <shaileshg> this time.. i did lockunspent true [{'txid' : 'eb95f11ec160beb7490fc8d20ecd3b254e82c49a513202983134424245da4fed', 'vout' : 1}]
 536 2014-02-16 07:41:01 <shaileshg> but still the same error
 537 2014-02-16 07:41:20 <kjj> you didn't need to swap your double quote for single quotes
 538 2014-02-16 07:41:35 <kjj> you needed to stick single quotes around the outside of the whole thing
 539 2014-02-16 07:41:41 <shaileshg> you mean to say '[]' ?
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 541 2014-02-16 07:42:19 <shaileshg> or ['{}']
 542 2014-02-16 07:42:22 <gmaxwell> gah, no. like '[{"txid" : "eb95f11ec160beb7490fc8d20ecd3b254e82c49a513202983134424245da4fed", "vout" : 1}]'
 543 2014-02-16 07:42:23 <kjj> lockunspent true [{"txid...}]  becomes lockunspent true '[{"txid...}]
 544 2014-02-16 07:42:25 <kjj> '
 545 2014-02-16 07:42:30 <anddam> shaileshg: I guess so, the shell till catch a few parenthesis otherwise
 546 2014-02-16 07:42:46 <anddam> s/till/will
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 548 2014-02-16 07:43:42 <shaileshg> Ah! got it.
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 595 2014-02-16 08:56:47 <anddam> per gmaxwell request: https://gist.github.com/anddam/e5659b88a2240f46ba99  Bitcoin 0.8.6 with pull request 2802 applied build on OS X 10.9
 596 2014-02-16 08:57:35 <gmaxwell> ^ leveldb out of file descriptors on OSX.
 597 2014-02-16 08:57:50 <anddam> the GUI application is sill running but the server isn't, should I kill -Qt ?
 598 2014-02-16 09:02:13 roasbeef has joined
 599 2014-02-16 09:02:34 <anddam> updated gist with db.log as well
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 602 2014-02-16 09:12:23 <anddam> btw my ma descriptor is hard limit is unlimited IIRC
 603 2014-02-16 09:12:47 <shesek> implr, each person can have a known master public key
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 605 2014-02-16 09:13:06 <shesek> and you can derive keys from it for usage with multisig
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 607 2014-02-16 09:14:48 <anddam> gmaxwell: actually not unlimited but my max files limit is >10k
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 613 2014-02-16 09:22:10 <venzen> hi all, as far as i'm aware there is no clear doc explaining the TM issue in layman's terms (well, it's not a layman's issue!). I am writing an article by way of clarifying the issue for the average user and distinguishing between events of the past week (since Gox,DDoS and SR have all been grouped under TM by the media, thereby increasing confusion)
 614 2014-02-16 09:23:26 <venzen> in the Bitcoin wiki page we have Sig Malleability and scriptSig malleability defined
 615 2014-02-16 09:24:17 <venzen> may i ask someone to please explain why txid is the main term being refered to?
 616 2014-02-16 09:26:28 <venzen> as i understand, txid is a sig hash - but which one? Sig or scriptSig?
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 618 2014-02-16 09:27:47 <wumpus> txid is a hash of the entire serialized transaction
 619 2014-02-16 09:27:51 <shesek> txid is the transaction hash, not the sig hash
 620 2014-02-16 09:28:00 <wumpus> so simply sha256(transaction)
 621 2014-02-16 09:28:38 <venzen> ok, and that's separate and in addition to there being sig and scriptsig hashes?
 622 2014-02-16 09:28:54 <wumpus> the scriptSig is included in this, which is the part that is being mutated by the DOS
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 624 2014-02-16 09:30:21 <venzen> thanks wumpus, so by changing the scriptSig a node malleates the txid...
 625 2014-02-16 09:30:48 <wumpus> yes: the transaction signatures cover everything but the input scriptSigs, so that's where malleability exists
 626 2014-02-16 09:31:09 <wumpus> changing any other field of the transaction would invalidate the transaction (and need it to be re-signed)
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 628 2014-02-16 09:31:44 <venzen> understood :)
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 630 2014-02-16 09:32:26 <venzen> are these "other fields" called the tarnsaction inputs?
 631 2014-02-16 09:32:36 <wumpus> the proposed normalized transaction hash (#3656) is the value that would get signed by transaction signing, so is by definition not malleable without having to compute a new signature
 632 2014-02-16 09:33:06 <wumpus> no, there are quite some other fields
 633 2014-02-16 09:34:08 <wumpus> version number, input.prevout, input.sequence for every input, all output data, nlocktime all are part of the signature
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 635 2014-02-16 09:34:28 <wumpus> just not input.scriptSig
 636 2014-02-16 09:35:02 <wumpus> (that would be impossible as the signature cannot sign itself :-)
 637 2014-02-16 09:35:09 <venzen> agreed
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 639 2014-02-16 09:37:10 <venzen> so if i understand correctly then only the input.scriptSig can be changed and if it IS changed then the txid hash changes as a result...
 640 2014-02-16 09:37:20 <wumpus> yes
 641 2014-02-16 09:37:31 <venzen> great (sigh of relief)
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 644 2014-02-16 09:38:15 <wumpus> the scriptSig can be changed due to redundancy of representation, but there is only limited wiggle room and further restricting it is being worked on
 645 2014-02-16 09:39:12 <gmaxwell> 01:32 < wumpus> the proposed normalized transaction hash (#3656) is the value that would get signed by transaction signing, so is by definition not malleable without  having to compute a new signature
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 647 2014-02-16 09:39:29 <gmaxwell> ^ only true for a subset of transactions (though the overwhelmingly most common subset!)
 648 2014-02-16 09:39:48 <gmaxwell> since the sighash flags allow the signatures to cover less of the transaction.
 649 2014-02-16 09:40:29 <wumpus> gmaxwell: but that needs 'permission' of the signer of the transaction
 650 2014-02-16 09:41:21 <gmaxwell> wumpus: sure but its critical if you're talking about from the perspective of a reciever. I've already run into developers who thought they could use this on recived transactions and not get confused by them.
 651 2014-02-16 09:41:22 <wumpus> some transactions types are by nature more malleable, but they're quite uncommon
 652 2014-02-16 09:41:38 <venzen> gotcha, ad this is not something i would include in the article - other than saying in the "most common transaction scenario"
 653 2014-02-16 09:41:42 <gmaxwell> it was just a pedantic aside in any case.
 654 2014-02-16 09:41:42 <venzen> *and
 655 2014-02-16 09:42:02 <venzen> :)
 656 2014-02-16 09:42:06 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, im thinking a certain block explorer type site
 657 2014-02-16 09:42:14 <gmaxwell> venzen: To be frank, do you really believe you're qualified to write such an article when you just came here asking for an explination of a transaction id? I think we've already had far too much of the blind leading the blind.
 658 2014-02-16 09:42:17 <phantomcircuit> which recently crashed and it was lul hilarious
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 661 2014-02-16 09:43:33 <shesek> at least he's trying to do it right, which is something I can't say about a lot of reporters
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 663 2014-02-16 09:43:47 <venzen> @gmaxwell, fair point and i would answer that my audience are the average user, so i am really trying to understand for my own confidence before attempting to simplify a cmplex issue
 664 2014-02-16 09:43:54 <shesek> some of them aren't qualified, don't even realize that and don't care enough to ask those questions
 665 2014-02-16 09:44:02 <wumpus> yes at least he's asking here in a normal tone
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 668 2014-02-16 09:44:39 <venzen> it's a reasonable question a
 669 2014-02-16 09:45:19 <gmaxwell> I've stayed up all night twice now explaining things to people, sorry if I'm being testy. I went asked other people to help venzen, when he asked. FWIW. None of them have alas.
 670 2014-02-16 09:45:55 <wumpus> it's understandable gmaxwell
 671 2014-02-16 09:46:40 <venzen> indeed, understandable challenge/question and  one i think i have answered honestly - the issue is just if it is acceptible to ask here (i think it is given the low traffic atm) but that is up to you guys to decide
 672 2014-02-16 09:47:07 <TheSeven> hm... receiving quite a bit of dust spam on random never used addresses recently...
 673 2014-02-16 09:47:19 <gmaxwell> it'll get diverted if it's in the way.
 674 2014-02-16 09:47:28 <gmaxwell> TheSeven: then they're less never used than you thought?
 675 2014-02-16 09:47:29 <shesek> TheSeven, never used? that doesn't make sense
 676 2014-02-16 09:47:41 <shesek> did you publish the addresses somewhere online?
 677 2014-02-16 09:47:53 <wumpus> TheSeven: they must be in the block chain, for example as change address
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 679 2014-02-16 09:48:09 <gmaxwell> I still think it's very interesting that none of my wallets have recieved even a single one of those spams.
 680 2014-02-16 09:48:14 <shesek> I think it might be reasonable to start a -press channel or something like that for technical inquiries and to allow a dialog between reporters and developers
 681 2014-02-16 09:48:27 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I only got it on my android 'bitcoin wallet'
 682 2014-02-16 09:48:35 <gmaxwell> which suggests some connecting factor which isn't true for me.
 683 2014-02-16 09:48:35 <shesek> but I'm not sure if anyone would actually go there... it'll probably become a dead channel quite fast
 684 2014-02-16 09:48:47 <wumpus> not in any of my reference client wallets, maybe they filter it by default, it's 1 satoshi amounts
 685 2014-02-16 09:49:06 <gmaxwell> It's generally a bad hour for such questions a lot of the people who have been doing a lot of explaing are asleep.
 686 2014-02-16 09:49:08 <venzen> shesek: good idea, because it seems like botheration to come asking laymen level q's here
 687 2014-02-16 09:49:18 <gmaxwell> wumpus: nah, we don't filter it.
 688 2014-02-16 09:49:32 <gwillen> I'd help explain if I could
 689 2014-02-16 09:49:41 <gwillen> but frankly I don't trust my knowledge of the issues
 690 2014-02-16 09:49:45 <gmaxwell> venzen: we normally redirect lay questions to #bitcoin (and often will go in there and answer them if no one else is)
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 692 2014-02-16 09:50:19 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I wonder: could it be away of finding the IP behind addresses? after all, many clients rebroadcast also transactions sent to them that don't get confirmed
 693 2014-02-16 09:50:20 <gmaxwell> andytoshi has been doing an epic job of explaining, but I suspect he's asleep.
 694 2014-02-16 09:50:30 <venzen> i think that may be more appropriate (also considering the hour as you say) - i'll do that
 695 2014-02-16 09:50:49 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it could be. though I spoke to someone who thought they found the source and said they were just an idiot.
 696 2014-02-16 09:51:02 <TheSeven> I got some blockchain.info eWallet notifications, but I can't even see which particular addresses caught them, they don't show up in the transaction list
 697 2014-02-16 09:51:22 <gmaxwell> wumpus: in interesting point there is that my wallets are all on tor.
 698 2014-02-16 09:51:37 <wumpus> gmaxwell: mine too, except for the android one.... hmm :-)
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 700 2014-02-16 09:51:45 <gmaxwell> so if it were that kind of attack perhaps you connect to a node and by monitoring it guess its addresses and then spam it to confirm?
 701 2014-02-16 09:51:53 <shesek> I wonder, if wallets would start displaying textual content in OP_RETURN in the gui... how long will it take for spammers to start abusing it with satoshi transactions advertising viagra websites?
 702 2014-02-16 09:52:24 * gmaxwell really regrets including the OP_RETURN <data> change now.
 703 2014-02-16 09:52:37 <gmaxwell> shesek: we forsaw that, however.
 704 2014-02-16 09:52:48 <gmaxwell> So "don't do that" sadly people will.
 705 2014-02-16 09:53:11 <gwillen> gmaxwell: why do you regret that now in particular
 706 2014-02-16 09:53:30 <shesek> "that" being displaying OP_RETURN data it in the gui?
 707 2014-02-16 09:53:52 <wumpus> bitcoin-qt will never display OP_RETURN data in the GUI
 708 2014-02-16 09:53:53 <gmaxwell> gwillen: because of all the bad things people are planning with it, for example I got excited email about someone who'd written a f@#$@ VFS driver to store data in the blockchain, inspired in part by the "approval" that they felt they'd recieved.
 709 2014-02-16 09:53:55 <shesek> or did you mean something else?
 710 2014-02-16 09:54:04 <wumpus> except in hex maybe in the tx details, it's for internal purposes
 711 2014-02-16 09:54:19 <gmaxwell> shesek: displaying. yes. we won't do it, but I won't be shocked when every other wallet does. :(
 712 2014-02-16 09:54:42 <gmaxwell> then I won't be shocked when someone finds a string handling exploit and takes their funds or an XSS vulnerability either. :P
 713 2014-02-16 09:54:51 <gmaxwell> but I'm pessimistic like that
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 715 2014-02-16 09:55:14 <wumpus> hah - or someone storing it in a sql database, ';drop tables  :p
 716 2014-02-16 09:55:26 * TheSeven is somewhat confident that increasing transaction volume and increasing fees will fix that kind of storage/spam problems
 717 2014-02-16 09:55:27 <shesek> I really think OP_RETURN should be limited to hashes, but that boat already sailed :-\
 718 2014-02-16 09:55:45 <wumpus> shesek: how can an algorithm know?
 719 2014-02-16 09:56:04 <shesek> wumpus, gmaxwell had a few ideas on how to accomplish that
 720 2014-02-16 09:56:31 <shesek> one was providing the pre image (separately from the tx/block itself) and penalize blocks that don't have that
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 722 2014-02-16 09:56:52 <gmaxwell> I came up with a way to prove a value is a hash, actually two ways.  Thats one.
 723 2014-02-16 09:57:04 <shesek> and there was some other way for hashes to prove they are indeed hashes with pairing crypto or something like that, but I'm not sure how realistic it is to use
 724 2014-02-16 09:57:10 <shesek> the proof size and all that
 725 2014-02-16 09:57:46 <uiop> where would the preimage be provided if not in the tx/block ?
 726 2014-02-16 09:57:53 <gmaxwell> The other is that I invented (? can't find it else where) a kind of self-certifying hash. shesek: it's just 2x the size for the proof.
 727 2014-02-16 09:57:54 <wumpus> gmaxwell: nice
 728 2014-02-16 09:58:19 <wumpus> I was imagining horrible cat and mouse games, but crypto to the rescue again :)
 729 2014-02-16 09:58:33 <shesek> oh, really? that's very good
 730 2014-02-16 09:58:38 <gmaxwell> shesek: e.g. for 256 bit security its a 64 byte value.
 731 2014-02-16 09:58:58 <shesek> was it seriously considered? I think using that is a great idea
 732 2014-02-16 09:59:21 <shesek> perhaps even just penalizing data without that proof with higher fees requirements
 733 2014-02-16 09:59:56 <shesek> but ideally, completely forbidding non-hash data is the way to go imho
 734 2014-02-16 10:00:09 <gmaxwell> shesek: well its something we could still deploy in the future. probably the downside of it is that it takes a pairing operation to verify.
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 736 2014-02-16 10:00:16 <gmaxwell> so like 1ms to verify. :(
 737 2014-02-16 10:00:16 <venzen> wumpus: thanks for taking the time to explain earlier!
 738 2014-02-16 10:00:16 <venzen> i'm off to #bitcoin
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 740 2014-02-16 10:01:03 <shesek> gmaxwell, I think the overall effect of allowing arbitrary data will be far worse than that though :-\
 741 2014-02-16 10:02:04 <gmaxwell> probably, but there are many ways to do that now. we block non-hashes in OP_RETURN and people will encode into hash160 junk outputs, and I think thats worse.
 742 2014-02-16 10:02:20 <gmaxwell> I do wish the op_return had been limited to 32 or 32+small bytes.
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 744 2014-02-16 10:02:48 <wumpus> gmaxwell: we could still do that right? 0.9 is not released
 745 2014-02-16 10:03:11 <gmaxwell> It got discussed before.
 746 2014-02-16 10:03:18 <shesek> ideally, that proof should be provided everywhere, with pay-to-pubkey-hash and p2sh
 747 2014-02-16 10:03:24 <gmaxwell> maybe others will have changed their mind after seeing some of the response. :P
 748 2014-02-16 10:03:30 <shesek> it is a problem with pay-to-pubkey, though
 749 2014-02-16 10:04:06 <wumpus> I don't understand how that got merged at all if it's still so controversial
 750 2014-02-16 10:04:25 <wumpus> then again, yes the alternatives are worse
 751 2014-02-16 10:04:43 <wumpus> but the size is unlimited now?
 752 2014-02-16 10:04:57 <xiando> TheSeven: there you go, wanting to increase fees again. No wonder dogecoin is more popular
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 754 2014-02-16 10:05:22 <shesek> the alternatives are worse, but OP_RETURN makes it look officially approved
 755 2014-02-16 10:05:26 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it's limited to ~80 bytes now IIRC.
 756 2014-02-16 10:05:45 <TheSeven> xiando: I don't want to increase fees, but I estimate that an increase in fees will be unavoidable as a result of increasing adoption
 757 2014-02-16 10:05:52 <shesek> gives it a "gushpanka", as we say in Israel
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 759 2014-02-16 10:06:16 <gmaxwell> exactly as shesek said, well I supported including it, I thought 80 was too big since it wouldn't encourage hashes. My opinion has soured a bit as I've seen people promote stuff as "officially endorsed data storage"
 760 2014-02-16 10:06:45 <gmaxwell> shesek: "it's kosher"
 761 2014-02-16 10:06:50 <uiop> what about with p2sh? you can't require a preimage for the "sh" (?) (or am i not speaking in the correct context here?)
 762 2014-02-16 10:06:54 <shesek> gmaxwell, yeah... I also got a couple of emails about that
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 764 2014-02-16 10:07:06 <wumpus> ah https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/22de68d and https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/a793424 
 765 2014-02-16 10:07:12 <shesek> people wanting to attach contracts to transactions and stuff like that
 766 2014-02-16 10:07:13 <wumpus> the second one indeed mentions 80 bytes as limit
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 768 2014-02-16 10:07:58 <gmaxwell> uiop: p2sh isn't put in an op_return, ... but see my p2sh^2 post.  Though that was before I thought of self-certifying hashes.
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 771 2014-02-16 10:09:44 <shesek> even if using self-certifying hashes for OP_RETURN won't prevent people from stuffing arbitrary data elsewhere, at least it gives a formal declaration about what data is expected to be on the blockchain and what isn't
 772 2014-02-16 10:09:49 <wumpus> a hash of 80 bytes would exceed the security guarantees of bitcoin itself, so there indeed must have been other reasons behind the value of 80
 773 2014-02-16 10:09:56 <shesek> I think it should be reconsidered, if its not too late
 774 2014-02-16 10:10:58 <shesek> is there a consensus with the core dev team that arbitrary data is bad, or are some people supporting it?
 775 2014-02-16 10:11:03 <gmaxwell> shesek: I'd worry about deploying them so fast, though they're pretty simple. it's the sort of thing I ought to write up in a publication.
 776 2014-02-16 10:11:30 <gmaxwell> shesek: I think there is a general consensus that arbitrary data is bad. We didn't have any internal controversy about the dust threshold stuff, IIRC.
 777 2014-02-16 10:12:04 <shesek> why not delay OP_RETURN then?
 778 2014-02-16 10:12:53 <shesek> or even add it now with high fees, with a future update that cancels the fees when the proof is provided?
 779 2014-02-16 10:12:56 <uiop> it makes me nervous the the bitcoin protocol definition can be modified at the (however justified) whim of a particular implementation
 780 2014-02-16 10:13:23 <gmaxwell> uiop: dunno wtf you're talking about.
 781 2014-02-16 10:13:24 <uiop> (i'm coming from the pov of compilers/proglangs here)
 782 2014-02-16 10:13:27 <wumpus> uiop: this is not about changing the protocol definition
 783 2014-02-16 10:13:31 <gmaxwell> We're certantly not talking about the protocol definition here.
 784 2014-02-16 10:13:46 <wumpus> just about what gets relayed by default
 785 2014-02-16 10:13:48 <uiop> hmm, i'm totally confused then :)
 786 2014-02-16 10:13:59 <uiop> ahh, ok
 787 2014-02-16 10:14:14 <shesek> bbl
 788 2014-02-16 10:14:15 <uiop> i consider relay rules to be essentially protocol-ish
 789 2014-02-16 10:14:32 <gmaxwell> wumpus: we should probably poll the other core folks and see if anyone would hate restricting it back down to 32 bytes.
 790 2014-02-16 10:14:49 <wumpus> uiop: no, they're not, they are node policy and can be changed without even a softfork
 791 2014-02-16 10:15:04 <wumpus> gmaxwell: good idea
 792 2014-02-16 10:15:18 <gmaxwell> I think ~32 bytes at least communicates "this is for hashes"
 793 2014-02-16 10:15:38 <gmaxwell> and differs on systems all over the network. My systems, for example, have pretty much never run stock relay rules.
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 795 2014-02-16 10:16:07 <uiop> wumpus: right, i mean "in-spirit" though, since they (in the current situation of one de-facto implem) effectively determine "the rules"
 796 2014-02-16 10:16:22 <wumpus> uiop: it's the power of defaults, nothing more
 797 2014-02-16 10:16:41 <gmaxwell> uiop: if you don't like my relay rules, don't freeking connect to my nodes. There is, as I mentioned a diveristy.
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 799 2014-02-16 10:17:34 <uiop> i just wonder what would happen if another implementation comes along and gains market-share, *and* relay policy has become a primary method of discouraging various things, will this all come undone if the other implem which now has market share refuses to honor the same relay policy?
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 801 2014-02-16 10:18:10 <hno> uiop, no.
 802 2014-02-16 10:18:25 <gmaxwell> For the most part discouraging things is short term growth stuff, ultimately abusive use should be greatly constrained by the fees market.
 803 2014-02-16 10:18:42 <uiop> i suppose you could always push your tx directly to miners regardless
 804 2014-02-16 10:18:50 <wumpus> uiop: so large groups of people running nodes can decide that they want a different relay policy, that's not a problem in itself, that's good
 805 2014-02-16 10:19:11 <gmaxwell> indeed, nothing wrong with that.
 806 2014-02-16 10:19:18 <uiop> wumpus: hmm, yeah viewed that way it sounds better
 807 2014-02-16 10:19:27 <gmaxwell> this is why rules are not the protocol— no need for systems to match.
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 810 2014-02-16 10:22:00 <uiop> after all, it's impossible to *require* a node to relay *anything* i suppose (just like a proglang spec can't require a compiler which doesn't claim to be an implem of said spec to do *anything*)
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 813 2014-02-16 10:23:21 <uiop> "good faith is unenforceable" i guess
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 824 2014-02-16 10:48:41 <Mallstromm> what do you guys think of stealth addresses? Any chance to see them implemented in QT soon?
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 829 2014-02-16 10:50:38 <wumpus> Mallstromm: I don't know anyone working on that
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 836 2014-02-16 11:01:41 <Mallstromm> having coinjoin and SX addresses in the reference client would be a huge step forward IMO
 837 2014-02-16 11:02:43 <wumpus> well, submit a patch
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 841 2014-02-16 11:05:21 <wumpus> has some standard way of doing coinjoin rendezvous been defined already?
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 846 2014-02-16 11:13:26 <Mallstromm> wumpus: I wouldn't know how to write that patch... I was just chiming in my 0.0000002BTC.
 847 2014-02-16 11:13:40 <Mallstromm> never used blockchain.info until it became the easiest way to use Coinjoin
 848 2014-02-16 11:14:20 <Mallstromm> I'd personally like all my transfers to use Coinjoin by default. That'd be desiderable for everybody IMO. its an important step forward
 849 2014-02-16 11:15:43 <wumpus> yes that would be nice, although it would introduce more moving parts so more things that can go wrong while sending transactions
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 859 2014-02-16 11:31:38 <Mallstromm> I understand
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 866 2014-02-16 11:41:58 <_syslog> saluy
 867 2014-02-16 11:42:01 <_syslog> *t
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 884 2014-02-16 11:55:33 <Bisbee> seems like btc$ on mtgox may reach 0 within 48hrs, all other exchanges healthy; preparing my data analysis to not rely on gox in any way :)
 885 2014-02-16 11:55:50 <Diablo-D3> yeah thats the end of mtgox
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 887 2014-02-16 12:00:08 <jcorgan> \o/
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 896 2014-02-16 12:08:52 <Bisbee> Fitting: http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191096
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 898 2014-02-16 12:10:31 <wumpus> ...lol...
 899 2014-02-16 12:10:57 <uiop> hah
 900 2014-02-16 12:11:12 * uiop right-click save-image-as
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 902 2014-02-16 12:14:01 <jcorgan> it doesn't get much loller than that
 903 2014-02-16 12:15:15 <jcorgan> sad, though--could you imagine how much the bitcoin community would have rallied around mtgox and help them to address their issues if karpeles had simply mea culpa'd instead of shitting in the pool?
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 908 2014-02-16 12:19:42 <Bisbee> reliance on any one exchange is a foolish move tbh, I'd like to see a p2p secure exchange built
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 910 2014-02-16 12:20:44 <jcorgan> Bisbee: how to you handle fiat in a p2p, decentralized manner?
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 914 2014-02-16 12:24:01 <Bisbee> jcorgan: If I find an answer I'll share it :)
 915 2014-02-16 12:25:29 <jcorgan> please do :)  solving counterparty risk for fiat payments in a distributed way would be...enormous.
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 967 2014-02-16 13:27:58 <wallet42> is blockchain.info\s coinjoin not affected by tx malleability?
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 970 2014-02-16 13:32:45 <jcorgan> don't see any reason why it should be
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 974 2014-02-16 13:35:26 <wallet42> as far as i understand it, a coinjoin operation is a series of transactions, depending on each other. if the txid[0] changes, txid[1] becomes invalid
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 976 2014-02-16 13:36:36 <Aurigae> test
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 979 2014-02-16 13:37:38 <jcorgan> coinjoin is a single joined transaction that get broadcast all at once
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 982 2014-02-16 13:39:35 <Aurigae> Found Berkeley DB other than 4.8 <--- got this while compiling bitcoind, obv i have 5.1, in my sources i have no libdb4.8++ only, libdb4.8 , is that ok to replace libdb 5.1? or should i do –with-incompatible-bdb
 983 2014-02-16 13:39:37 <Aurigae> ?
 984 2014-02-16 13:39:58 <sipa> Aurigae: yes, if you don't need your wallets to be compatible with release binaries
 985 2014-02-16 13:40:16 <Aurigae> thx, so its safe to go with 5.1
 986 2014-02-16 13:40:18 <Aurigae> ?
 987 2014-02-16 13:40:19 <sipa> yes
 988 2014-02-16 13:40:22 <Aurigae> thx
 989 2014-02-16 13:40:23 <Aurigae> :)
 990 2014-02-16 13:40:32 <sipa> but it means your wallet.dat file won't work anymore with bitcoind versions that use 4.8
 991 2014-02-16 13:40:47 <Aurigae> im fine with that :)
 992 2014-02-16 13:40:50 <sipa> apart from that, perfectly safe
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1013 2014-02-16 14:08:22 <Aurigae> thx sipa, works like a charm
1014 2014-02-16 14:08:22 <Aurigae> nodes@39175:~/bitcoin/src$ ./bitcoind &
1015 2014-02-16 14:08:22 <Aurigae> [1] 18336
1016 2014-02-16 14:08:22 <Aurigae> nodes@39175:~/bitcoin/src$ ./bitcoind getinfo
1017 2014-02-16 14:08:22 <Aurigae> {
1018 2014-02-16 14:08:22 <Aurigae>     "version" : 90000,
1019 2014-02-16 14:08:22 <Aurigae>     "protocolversion" : 70002,
1020 2014-02-16 14:08:23 <Aurigae>     "walletversion" : 60000,
1021 2014-02-16 14:08:23 <Aurigae>     "balance" : 0.00000000,
1022 2014-02-16 14:08:24 <Aurigae>     "blocks" : 6500,
1023 2014-02-16 14:08:24 <Aurigae>     "timeoffset" : 0,
1024 2014-02-16 14:08:25 <Aurigae>     "connections" : 4,
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1032 2014-02-16 14:30:08 <wallet42> is there a service that tracks all coinjoin transactions?
1033 2014-02-16 14:30:27 <wallet42> (seem like) coinjoin transactions
1034 2014-02-16 14:30:39 <wallet42> i wonder how many there are per hour
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1037 2014-02-16 14:31:29 <shesek> I think its more reasonable to ask once in how many hours there's one
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1039 2014-02-16 14:31:52 <shesek> there aren't that many...
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1163 2014-02-16 16:41:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|12:05:41 <shesek> gives it a "gushpanka", as we say in Israel
1164 2014-02-16 16:41:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ohhh, is that what that word means?
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1166 2014-02-16 16:42:35 <shesek> heh, yes :)
1167 2014-02-16 16:42:43 <shesek> I wondered if you were around when I wrote that
1168 2014-02-16 16:42:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I was not, but IRCCloud was :-)
1169 2014-02-16 16:43:11 <shesek> according to wikitonary, "חותם רשמי של בעל סמכות (אדם או מוסד) למסמך, להתנהגות או לפעולה" or "מתן לגיטימציה, אישור, או הסכמה."
1170 2014-02-16 16:43:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ahhhh
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1172 2014-02-16 16:46:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|16:08:10 <Aurigae> nodes@39175:~/bitcoin/src$ ./bitcoind &
1173 2014-02-16 16:47:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Aurigae1: You may want the "daemon" option
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1177 2014-02-16 16:47:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|either on the command line or in the config file
1178 2014-02-16 16:47:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, as of 0.9.0 there's the `bitcoin-cli` executable for RPC calls\
1179 2014-02-16 16:47:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|s/\//
1180 2014-02-16 16:48:47 <arubi> does bitcoin-cli drop to a shell of itself or is it just a call for rpc from the regular shell?
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1184 2014-02-16 16:49:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|arubi: it does exactly what bitcoind does when you use bitcoind for an rpc call
1185 2014-02-16 16:50:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's just a separate executable
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1187 2014-02-16 16:50:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And IIRC the plan is to remove that functionality from bitcoind in 0.10
1188 2014-02-16 16:50:20 <arubi> alright, thanks
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1190 2014-02-16 16:50:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(don't quote me on that, though)
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1192 2014-02-16 16:50:40 <arubi> seems logical with bitcoin-cli
1193 2014-02-16 16:50:51 <arubi> to drop cli support from bitcoind that is
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1197 2014-02-16 16:52:57 <sipa> yeah, mixing rpc server and client in one has always been confusing
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1199 2014-02-16 16:53:20 <sipa> up to the point where some people believe that the only way to use it is through that binary
1200 2014-02-16 16:53:45 <sipa> whether bitcoind <command> is dropped in 0.10 will depend on when it is released, i guess
1201 2014-02-16 16:54:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I seem to recall someone saying that the plan was to drop it, but I could be wrong
1202 2014-02-16 16:55:14 Mopman has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1203 2014-02-16 16:55:22 <sipa> yeah, eventually for sure
1204 2014-02-16 16:55:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Though we may want to have a release that prints a message to stderr when bitcoind is used
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1227 2014-02-16 17:03:05 <kinlo> shouldn't that be in 0.9 already?
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1232 2014-02-16 17:03:48 <kinlo> also, it is not a big change, I'll have much more troubles with the other 0.9 changes :)
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1245 2014-02-16 17:08:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;cjs
1246 2014-02-16 17:08:48 <gribble> Coinjoin Status: There is no currently open session. Visit https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/ or http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ to start one.
1247 2014-02-16 17:08:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|kinlo: Yeah, it probably should be
1248 2014-02-16 17:08:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|but it's not
1249 2014-02-16 17:09:04 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|pokes gribble
1250 2014-02-16 17:09:25 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wonders if it's andytoshi's server or ,,gribble causing the delay
1251 2014-02-16 17:09:25 <gribble> yes I am gribble. why do you keep bothering me?
1252 2014-02-16 17:09:57 <andytoshi> michagogo|cloud: looks like my server is being weird
1253 2014-02-16 17:10:16 <andytoshi> which is weird, considering i'm SSH'd into the same physical box right now to say this..
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1261 2014-02-16 17:10:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is gribble not threaded?
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1263 2014-02-16 17:11:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(or whatever the term is for "can do two things at once")
1264 2014-02-16 17:11:26 <andytoshi> nvr mind, it's fine, it's just not responding to pings. that's a router setting i never got around to changing..
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1292 2014-02-16 17:34:42 <shaileshg> Hi. Has anyone tried OP_RETURN here?
1293 2014-02-16 17:35:18 [EddyF] has joined
1294 2014-02-16 17:35:18 <shaileshg> any tool to create transaction with OP_RETURN scriptPubKey
1295 2014-02-16 17:35:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: OP_RETURN is not intended to be used.
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1299 2014-02-16 17:36:12 <shaileshg> michagogo|cloud: it is intended to be used for inserting up to 80 bytes data in blockchain
1300 2014-02-16 17:36:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Don't stuff arbitrary data into the blockchain.
1301 2014-02-16 17:36:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: No, it's not
1302 2014-02-16 17:36:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's a way of making doing so less harmful
1303 2014-02-16 17:37:04 <shaileshg> michagogo|cloud: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2738 says it has been merged
1304 2014-02-16 17:37:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: To borrow an analogy from Luke-Jr, OP_RETURN is "Please don't rape me, but if you do, at least do it gently"
1305 2014-02-16 17:37:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, it's merged, but it's not something that's good to use
1306 2014-02-16 17:37:42 <shaileshg> michagogo|cloud: whatever. In either case, it has been merged
1307 2014-02-16 17:37:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you insist on stuffing data into the blockchain, OP_RETURN is the least bad way of doing it
1308 2014-02-16 17:38:00 <sipa> ^- that makes me want to argue for removing it again
1309 2014-02-16 17:38:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But you shouldn't do it.
1310 2014-02-16 17:38:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Yes, me too
1311 2014-02-16 17:38:09 <shaileshg> then what do you suggest to use if I want to insert some meta-data for later use in blockchain per transaction
1312 2014-02-16 17:38:14 <sipa> shaileshg: don't
1313 2014-02-16 17:38:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: don't
1314 2014-02-16 17:38:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: jinx
1315 2014-02-16 17:38:22 <sipa> shaileshg: there is no point in putting in the blockchain
1316 2014-02-16 17:38:32 <sipa> where you burden every node in the world forever with it
1317 2014-02-16 17:38:56 <sipa> if you have meta-data that needs to be associated with the transaction, send it to the receiver directly
1318 2014-02-16 17:39:07 <sipa> that is what the payment protocol accomplishes, for example
1319 2014-02-16 17:39:20 <sipa> the blockchain is only for what is necessary for the world to validate the transfer
1320 2014-02-16 17:39:38 <shaileshg> sipa: if I want to provide some particular kind of service to end users in a way that they can verify the service just by looking up the blockchain instead of pinging my server everytime for it.. i think inserting some small data would be a way to do it
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1322 2014-02-16 17:40:08 <gmaxwell> shaileshg: no, not really— you should just publish the data for them and then they don't need to ping you.
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1326 2014-02-16 17:40:48 <shaileshg> gmaxwell: you are saying kind of web page or api..?
1327 2014-02-16 17:41:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Since it's been merged, seeing how people are reacting to it makes me think that it was a bad idea
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1333 2014-02-16 17:42:50 <wallet42> my coinjoin tx got anuallated
1334 2014-02-16 17:42:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;cjs
1335 2014-02-16 17:42:59 <gribble> Coinjoin Status: There is no currently open session. Visit https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/ or http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ to start one.
1336 2014-02-16 17:43:05 <shaileshg> sipa: but its auto-prunable without being relayed to other nodes
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1338 2014-02-16 17:43:11 <sipa> shaileshg: you misunderstand
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1340 2014-02-16 17:43:16 <sipa> shaileshg: it does not enter the UTXO set
1341 2014-02-16 17:43:24 <shaileshg> so, i don't think it will burden every node forever with it
1342 2014-02-16 17:43:32 <sipa> shaileshg: but it becomes part of the blockchain, and associated bandwidth with it
1343 2014-02-16 17:43:53 <sipa> shaileshg: it still hurts
1344 2014-02-16 17:43:57 <sipa> shaileshg: just slightly less badly
1345 2014-02-16 17:44:30 <sipa> if it were not relayed to other nodes, it could just as well be not there in the first place, right?
1346 2014-02-16 17:44:36 <sipa> it IS relayed, and stored
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1348 2014-02-16 17:44:47 <sipa> but not in the database, just in the blockchain
1349 2014-02-16 17:44:54 <shaileshg> sipa: I see. What you are saying is that it will be with every node having that block or blockchain.. just that it won't show up in listunspent?
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1352 2014-02-16 17:44:57 <andytoshi> does anyone remember roughly when gox started using their nonstandard signatures? (sorry to be OT, i think that question could cause a shitstorm on #bitcoin)
1353 2014-02-16 17:45:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|19:37:04 <+michagogo|cloud> shaileshg: To borrow an analogy from Luke-Jr, OP_RETURN is "Please don't rape me, but if you do, at least do it [slightly more] gently"
1354 2014-02-16 17:45:17 <sipa> shaileshg: listunspent is a wallet RPC, that has nothing to do with it, wallets work indepdently
1355 2014-02-16 17:45:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|andytoshi: A very long time ago, IIRC
1356 2014-02-16 17:45:26 <wallet42> i'm pretty sure that the sharedcoin operstion got canceled because of tx maleablity
1357 2014-02-16 17:45:31 <sipa> shaileshg: the RPC it affects is gettxoutsetinfo
1358 2014-02-16 17:45:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It was only recently that they *stopped*, IIRC
1359 2014-02-16 17:46:10 <sipa> shaileshg: nodes keep a fast-accessible database of all unspent transaction outputs, in order to be able to quickly validate transactions and blocks
1360 2014-02-16 17:46:18 <sipa> shaileshg: OP_RETURN outputs do not enter that database
1361 2014-02-16 17:46:39 <shaileshg> sipa: hmm
1362 2014-02-16 17:47:15 <shaileshg> sipa: and that is local db if I m running client on my machine..
1363 2014-02-16 17:47:20 <sipa> yes
1364 2014-02-16 17:47:25 <sipa> it's in $DATADIR/chainstate
1365 2014-02-16 17:47:28 <shaileshg> so it doesn't matter much in lowering the burden on blockchain
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1367 2014-02-16 17:47:31 <shaileshg> hmm
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1370 2014-02-16 17:48:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: Correct. The *only* thing it does is keep the output out of the UTXO set.
1371 2014-02-16 17:48:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Rather, that's what OP_RETURN does
1372 2014-02-16 17:49:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What relaying OP_RETURN+smalldata outputs does is simply make it as easy to use OP_RETURN as it is to use other methods
1373 2014-02-16 17:49:52 <shaileshg> hmm
1374 2014-02-16 17:50:20 <shaileshg> if i want to check how transaction behave with OP_RETURN in testnet.. how can i check it
1375 2014-02-16 17:51:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: Erm, what do you mean, how it behaves?
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1377 2014-02-16 17:51:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Testnet already has IsStandard disabled, so #2738 is irrelevant to it
1378 2014-02-16 17:51:36 sassamo has joined
1379 2014-02-16 17:51:37 <shaileshg> michagogo|cloud: I think it answered my question.. it will get accepted thr..
1380 2014-02-16 17:51:38 <shaileshg> hmm
1381 2014-02-16 17:51:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The only thing to test would be the pruning from the utxo set
1382 2014-02-16 17:52:05 <shaileshg> michagogo|cloud: if isStandard is enabled.. will #2738 be accepted by miners?
1383 2014-02-16 17:52:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uh, what?
1384 2014-02-16 17:52:32 <shaileshg> in mainnet.. will transaction having OP_RETURN be registered in block by miners?
1385 2014-02-16 17:52:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It depends on the miner
1386 2014-02-16 17:53:04 <sipa> miners do what they want
1387 2014-02-16 17:53:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Each miner decides what to mine
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1390 2014-02-16 17:53:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I believe some miners do mine OP_RETURN transactions, yes
1391 2014-02-16 17:54:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Whether or not the transaction will *get* to the miner, though, is a different story
1392 2014-02-16 17:54:11 <shaileshg> ?
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1395 2014-02-16 17:55:07 <shaileshg> why so? won't it be relayed to the miner through other nodes
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1397 2014-02-16 17:55:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, but only if a chain of nodes that will relay the transaction from you to the miner exists
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1399 2014-02-16 17:56:47 <wallet42> how is the terminology of a) tx beeing forwarded, b) blocks with tx are accepted ?
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1402 2014-02-16 17:57:15 <shaileshg> michagogo|cloud: when I said I wanted to check how transaction with OP_RETURN will behave in testnet, I precisely wanted to check if it will be relayed from my machine to the miner..
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1404 2014-02-16 17:57:40 <wallet42> for instance a block with a tx habing 1 satoshi output would be protocol valid, but not forwarded in the bitcoind client right?
1405 2014-02-16 17:57:44 <shaileshg> Also, it will be gr8 if you can explain it in context of mainnet with IsStandard() check
1406 2014-02-16 17:57:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: Yes, I can guarantee that it will be relayed from you to the miner in testnet, because on testnet, everything is relayed
1407 2014-02-16 17:57:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|IsStandard is disabled on testnet
1408 2014-02-16 17:58:03 <Luke-Jr> s/disabled/not used/
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1410 2014-02-16 17:58:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right.
1411 2014-02-16 17:58:21 <shaileshg> yeah.. I know that now.. what about mainnet..
1412 2014-02-16 17:58:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wallet42: Anything that's in a block reaches everyone, assuming it's not actually invalid
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1415 2014-02-16 17:59:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wallet42: A transaction with a 1-satoshi output will generally not be relayed, but if it gets into a block, it will reach everyone through that block.
1416 2014-02-16 17:59:05 <shaileshg> does the current release have any technical implementation to prevent such a transaction to propagate in the network..
1417 2014-02-16 17:59:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: The current release is 0.8.6
1418 2014-02-16 17:59:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|0.8.6 does not relay OP_RETURN transactions by default.
1419 2014-02-16 17:59:29 <shaileshg> or can I assume it will be relayed from me to miner
1420 2014-02-16 17:59:53 <shaileshg> michagogo|cloud: sorry.. means upcoming 0.9.* version
1421 2014-02-16 18:00:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|In current git head, OP_RETURN+smalldata is relayed, yes
1422 2014-02-16 18:00:18 <shaileshg> okay
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1424 2014-02-16 18:00:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But there's no guarantee that that will be the case in 0.9.0
1425 2014-02-16 18:00:30 <shaileshg> hmm
1426 2014-02-16 18:00:37 <wallet42> if it reads "is not relay", does this mean it wont be accepted by a node at all or will it be accepted but not forwarded? meaning, if i throw it directly to a miner node it will eventually be included?
1427 2014-02-16 18:00:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I've seen a few people talking about reverting that particular change
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1429 2014-02-16 18:00:54 <shaileshg> hmm.. i could sense that
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1431 2014-02-16 18:01:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wallet42: AFAIK, if it fails IsStandard, unmodified Bitcoin Core will not accept it into the mempool
1432 2014-02-16 18:01:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So it won't be relayed nor mined
1433 2014-02-16 18:01:34 <wallet42> okay thx
1434 2014-02-16 18:01:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(keeping in mind that most large miners use modified bitcoind)
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1436 2014-02-16 18:03:08 <shaileshg> michagogo|cloud: has anyone done analysis on size by which blockchain will bloat if OP_RETURN is allowed in the mainnet viz-a-viz many ways people can use that feature to inject important information regarding a txn in the blockchain for anyone to confirm at any later point in time..
1437 2014-02-16 18:03:23 <sipa> shaileshg: that's an impossible question
1438 2014-02-16 18:03:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: How would such analysis be done?
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1440 2014-02-16 18:03:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You'd need to know/predict how much it would be used
1441 2014-02-16 18:03:48 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: there is no legit value in injecting data into the blockchain
1442 2014-02-16 18:03:52 <shaileshg> yeah.. average size of a txn is?
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1446 2014-02-16 18:03:58 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: the *only* advantage is *forcing* unwilling people to store it
1447 2014-02-16 18:04:19 <sipa> shaileshg: the question is much more whether people will create transactions specifically for the purpose of being able to use OP_RETURN
1448 2014-02-16 18:04:46 <sipa> otherwise the question is simple: every transaction can increase by something lke 91 bytes
1449 2014-02-16 18:04:59 <wallet42> wait… 3/4 multisig is non-standard?
1450 2014-02-16 18:05:11 <sipa> wallet42: in P2SH it is (unintentionally) standard
1451 2014-02-16 18:05:26 <shaileshg> to solve first part.. a small fee can be imposed on OP_RETURN transactions to avoid spam problem
1452 2014-02-16 18:05:31 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not exactly
1453 2014-02-16 18:05:39 <wallet42> so i can send to P2SH but the redeem script is non-standard?
1454 2014-02-16 18:05:46 <sipa> wallet42: no, you can spend it just fine
1455 2014-02-16 18:05:59 <shaileshg> only those who have legitimate need to use OP_RETURN to serve their customers would be willing to pay the fee (which in turn would come from customer)
1456 2014-02-16 18:06:04 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: a huge fee, and even then you lack a way to distribute it to the entire network storing it
1457 2014-02-16 18:06:10 <sipa> shaileshg: the problem is that the fee goes to miners
1458 2014-02-16 18:06:16 <sipa> shaileshg: and not to everyone you're burdening with it
1459 2014-02-16 18:06:19 <wallet42> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L434
1460 2014-02-16 18:06:19 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: there is no legitimate need to use OP_RETURN, ever
1461 2014-02-16 18:06:45 <sipa> wallet42: that method isn't used for P2SH
1462 2014-02-16 18:06:51 <gmaxwell> current fees are subudized by lack of demand in any case. Additional blockchain size is near pure externality.
1463 2014-02-16 18:07:04 <wallet42> sipa: ok thx (uff)
1464 2014-02-16 18:07:08 <shesek> Luke-Jr, I don't know if that's true... there are some use cases where its useful to commit a transaction to something specific
1465 2014-02-16 18:07:16 <sipa> there are use cases, yes
1466 2014-02-16 18:07:30 <shesek> that something is better sent off-blockchain, but an hash of it attached to the transaction could be useful
1467 2014-02-16 18:07:33 <Luke-Jr> shesek: that does not require burdening the blockchain with the data
1468 2014-02-16 18:07:50 <shaileshg> Luke-Jr: what is the alternative in your mind
1469 2014-02-16 18:08:07 <shaileshg> not that i run api-service
1470 2014-02-16 18:08:22 <shaileshg> *I have to run..
1471 2014-02-16 18:08:32 <wallet42> you could store a hash of ASCII- bernanke in the blockchain with OP_RETURN
1472 2014-02-16 18:08:36 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: you have to run some kind of service, no matter what.
1473 2014-02-16 18:09:08 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: trying to minimise your own costs by forcing others to bear it at 0.0001% efficiency is NOT acceptable
1474 2014-02-16 18:09:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|IIRC the stealth addresses thing requires OP_RETURN?
1475 2014-02-16 18:09:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(a data output, anyway)
1476 2014-02-16 18:09:59 <sipa> one implementation of them, yes
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1478 2014-02-16 18:11:05 <wallet42> sipa: is there another implementation of it w/o op_return?
1479 2014-02-16 18:11:39 <sipa> using OP_DROP for example (which is worse in terms of UTXO and blockchain impact, but more flexible)
1480 2014-02-16 18:11:39 <shaileshg> Luke-Jr: its not about cost, but about single point of failure.. with blockchain kind of open distributed database.. the meta-information would be available for ever (unless apocalypse happens)
1481 2014-02-16 18:11:46 <sipa> or just sending the data offchain
1482 2014-02-16 18:11:58 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: only because you're forcing people to store it against their will
1483 2014-02-16 18:12:14 <sipa> (in which case you lose the primary advantage of stealth addresses, namely the lack of need for a bidirection communication channel)
1484 2014-02-16 18:12:19 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: obviously you can always have your own distributed data store for people to opt-into without the blockchain
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1531 2014-02-16 18:54:36 <andytoshi> can somebody proofread this?: http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/malleability-faq.pdf
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1537 2014-02-16 18:58:44 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|clicks
1538 2014-02-16 18:59:29 <denisx> andytoshi: you blame for mtgox while bitcoind had the same problem
1539 2014-02-16 18:59:36 <denisx> I still do not understand that
1540 2014-02-16 18:59:56 <andytoshi> denisx: are you fucking kidding me
1541 2014-02-16 19:00:15 <denisx> no
1542 2014-02-16 19:00:17 sbonaparte has joined
1543 2014-02-16 19:00:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|andytoshi: "Therefore, it is impossible to use this to steal money or invalidate transactions."
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1547 2014-02-16 19:01:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's mostly true
1548 2014-02-16 19:01:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Except when you chain unconfirmed transactions
1549 2014-02-16 19:01:49 <andytoshi> oh, right, i should clarify that there because i bring up chains a few times later on
1550 2014-02-16 19:01:51 <andytoshi> thx
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1554 2014-02-16 19:02:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"As Bitcoin’s ECDSA signatures are completely non-malleable, no signed data can be changed by anyone after the fact"
1555 2014-02-16 19:02:26 Aurigae has joined
1556 2014-02-16 19:02:30 <shaileshg> what does it mean? "Sign as many inputs as possible for raw transaction (serialized, hex-encoded). The first argument may be several variations of the same transaction concatenated together; signatures from all of them will be combined together, along with signatures for keys in the local wallet." as mentioned under "signrawtransaction <hex string>
1557 2014-02-16 19:02:30 <shaileshg> [{"txid":txid,"vout":n,"scriptPubKey":hex},...] [<privatekey1>,...] [sighash="ALL"]" in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions
1558 2014-02-16 19:02:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does the canonical signature stuff not count?
1559 2014-02-16 19:02:37 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: that's not true...
1560 2014-02-16 19:02:37 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: no, the padding was made non-standard in v0.8.0
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1565 2014-02-16 19:02:52 <denisx> how is the second paragraph of "is there something wrong with the bitcoin client" not affecting mtgox?
1566 2014-02-16 19:02:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(the thing about negative modulo or whatever it was)
1567 2014-02-16 19:03:13 <andytoshi> michagogo|cloud, sipa: i changed that line to 'malleating a transaction cannot reroute funds or invalidate it'
1568 2014-02-16 19:03:21 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: thx, fixed
1569 2014-02-16 19:03:26 <gmaxwell> denisx: mtgox doesn't run the reference software.
1570 2014-02-16 19:03:34 <andytoshi> i thought so, but 0.8.0 came out a really long time ago..
1571 2014-02-16 19:03:46 <Bisbee> The only thing affecting mtgox is mtgox itself; http://shuvel.in/btc/mtgox/
1572 2014-02-16 19:04:13 <denisx> gmaxwell: but this problem with zeronconf change is also affecting them, right?
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1574 2014-02-16 19:04:27 <sipa> denisx: they don't use zeroconf change
1575 2014-02-16 19:05:07 <shaileshg> Hi, can anyone explain me what the first two lines in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions#signrawtransaction_.3Chex_string.3E_.5B.7B.22txid.22:txid.2C.22vout.22:n.2C.22scriptPubKey.22:hex.7D.2C....5D_.5B.3Cprivatekey1.3E.2C....5D_.5Bsighash.3D.22ALL.22.5D are trying to do
1576 2014-02-16 19:06:08 <gmaxwell> shaileshg: uh. The lines there are trying to explain to what the RPC does to you.
1577 2014-02-16 19:06:48 <shaileshg> gmaxwell: when it says "Sign as many inputs as possible", does it refer to inputs in the txn?
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1579 2014-02-16 19:07:19 <gmaxwell> shaileshg: yes, there is one scriptsig per txin, it tries to produce as may of the scriptsigs as it can.
1580 2014-02-16 19:08:00 <shaileshg> Oh right.. you mean to say one scriptSig per input.. right?
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1583 2014-02-16 19:09:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: what's what he said
1584 2014-02-16 19:09:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|er
1585 2014-02-16 19:09:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: *
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1588 2014-02-16 19:11:06 <shaileshg> michagogo|cloud: Ok. What would it mean when it says "The first argument may be several variations of the same transaction concatenated together..."
1589 2014-02-16 19:11:22 <shaileshg> "... signatures from all of them will be combined together"
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1592 2014-02-16 19:12:13 <shaileshg> how can <hex string> be several variations of same txn concatenated together? and what does variations exactly means in terms of varying stuff..
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1595 2014-02-16 19:12:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|andytoshi: I think "Mark Karpeleas" is misspelled
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1600 2014-02-16 19:13:49 <gmaxwell> shaileshg: it means that you can author a transaction, send it off to two people to sign, they'll sign for their respective parts, and then you can merge them again into a single transaction.
1601 2014-02-16 19:13:57 <maaku> andytoshi: did you conclusively show that ECDSA signatures are non-malleable (modulo s->-s)?
1602 2014-02-16 19:14:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: What the wiki appears to be describing is that if you have several versions of the same transaction, each with a different input or inputs signed, you can concatenate them together and pass them to signrawtransaction
1603 2014-02-16 19:14:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I was unaware of this behavior...
1604 2014-02-16 19:14:45 <andytoshi> maaku: nope. it's like this signature algo is designed to evade any form of proof
1605 2014-02-16 19:14:56 <shaileshg> gmaxwell: Oh. Multi-sig.
1606 2014-02-16 19:15:04 <maaku> cue NSA conpiracy theories....
1607 2014-02-16 19:15:07 <andytoshi> lol
1608 2014-02-16 19:15:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: No, not multisig, I don't think
1609 2014-02-16 19:15:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Er, maybe multisig
1610 2014-02-16 19:15:33 <andytoshi> i'm confident that there's no more simple malleability, but not at all confident that there's no more malleability period.
1611 2014-02-16 19:15:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But that sounds to me like it's referring to, for example, coinjoin-type transactions
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1613 2014-02-16 19:15:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|where different parties sign different inputs
1614 2014-02-16 19:16:02 <shaileshg> michagogo|cloud: my bad.. not multisig.. its different here
1615 2014-02-16 19:16:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(but I was unaware of that functionality, so don't take anything I say about that particular bit as fact)
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1617 2014-02-16 19:16:20 <shaileshg> what gmaxwell is saying is that two people using their outputs to spend in same txn
1618 2014-02-16 19:16:29 <shaileshg> which is not what multi-sig is..
1619 2014-02-16 19:17:27 <shaileshg> michagogo|cloud: I think so
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1626 2014-02-16 19:24:14 <shaileshg> gmaxwell: plz correct if I am wrong. What you are saying is that a transaction can have two inputs with two different pub-key respectively.. I can send it off to two people (having private key) to sign.. they will return their signed transaction hex (i.e. raw txn with signature).. I can merge two hex to form single txn hex
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1628 2014-02-16 19:24:40 <shaileshg> *send hex off to..
1629 2014-02-16 19:25:19 <gmaxwell> shaileshg: yes, or multisignature.
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1640 2014-02-16 19:37:11 <vekexasia> can someone tell me why a tx of 0.133499 BTC with only one input
1641 2014-02-16 19:37:22 <vekexasia> required a fee of 0.0001 BTCC ?
1642 2014-02-16 19:37:38 <vekexasia> the tx input was 25 block older
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1644 2014-02-16 19:37:58 <sipa> does it have a tiny output?
1645 2014-02-16 19:38:03 <vekexasia> 0.133499
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1647 2014-02-16 19:38:12 <sipa> how large?
1648 2014-02-16 19:38:20 <vekexasia> how can i discover?
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1650 2014-02-16 19:38:54 <sipa> what client sent it?
1651 2014-02-16 19:39:08 <vekexasia>     "version" : 90000,
1652 2014-02-16 19:39:24 <andytoshi> thx for the help guys, i have refreshed my faq at http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/malleability-faq.pdf
1653 2014-02-16 19:40:03 <Bisbee> be warey with btc-e at the moment http://shuvel.in/btc/btce/
1654 2014-02-16 19:40:04 <vekexasia> i'm trying to send it using rpc command sipa
1655 2014-02-16 19:40:19 <sipa> vekexasia: doesn't gettransaction tell you the size?
1656 2014-02-16 19:41:01 Michail1 has joined
1657 2014-02-16 19:41:02 <vekexasia> hmm
1658 2014-02-16 19:41:06 <vekexasia> sipa i'ts gone
1659 2014-02-16 19:41:10 <sipa> ?
1660 2014-02-16 19:41:13 <vekexasia> i cannot get it anymore
1661 2014-02-16 19:41:16 <sipa> ...?
1662 2014-02-16 19:41:21 <vekexasia> don't make me explain.
1663 2014-02-16 19:41:21 <vekexasia> :P
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1666 2014-02-16 19:43:46 <vekexasia> i had to restart bitcoin daemon
1667 2014-02-16 19:43:56 <vekexasia> and I think the transaction was not sent ?
1668 2014-02-16 19:44:02 <vekexasia> i had a wallet.dat copy
1669 2014-02-16 19:45:14 <vekexasia> sipa https://blockchain.info/tx/a01bfd0d807a88638c66db5390a445351a941e9b6ee91fc592d5de7df0c2b315
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1671 2014-02-16 19:45:48 <sipa> ok, so it's 225 bytes, thanks :)
1672 2014-02-16 19:45:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vekexasia: Probably just a priority thing
1673 2014-02-16 19:46:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(priority too low)
1674 2014-02-16 19:46:28 <vekexasia> i need to find a way to calculate the fees upfront
1675 2014-02-16 19:46:33 <vekexasia> before sending the money
1676 2014-02-16 19:46:33 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|does some quick math
1677 2014-02-16 19:46:38 <sipa> vekexasia: yeah, too low priority
1678 2014-02-16 19:46:48 <sipa> if you'd have waited ~ a day, it could be without fee
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1681 2014-02-16 19:47:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vekexasia: Your priority is 8,902,666.6666666666666666666666667
1682 2014-02-16 19:47:30 <sipa> vekexasia: and to do that, you need the raw transaction interface
1683 2014-02-16 19:47:43 <sipa> which allows constructing a transaction without sending it
1684 2014-02-16 19:47:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just over a day, in fact
1685 2014-02-16 19:48:03 <vekexasia> michagogo|cloud, is that low or high?
1686 2014-02-16 19:48:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vekexasia: feeless threshold is 56m, IIRC
1687 2014-02-16 19:48:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|57,600,000, actually
1688 2014-02-16 19:48:39 <sipa> (which corresponds to 1 bitcoin-day, for a 250 byte transactions)
1689 2014-02-16 19:49:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wait, wasn't there some change involving subtracting a few bytes for each input to encourage sweeping?
1690 2014-02-16 19:49:10 <vekexasia> sipa do you've any way to
1691 2014-02-16 19:49:14 <vekexasia> sorry
1692 2014-02-16 19:49:22 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: i don't know if that got merged
1693 2014-02-16 19:49:27 <vekexasia> any link where i can understand how to use the rawtransaction stuff?
1694 2014-02-16 19:49:38 <sipa> there are some tutorials
1695 2014-02-16 19:49:41 <sipa> but it's tricky
1696 2014-02-16 19:49:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google github bitcoin don't count priority encourage sweeping
1697 2014-02-16 19:49:46 <gribble> [Fee logic] Don't count txins for priority to encourage sweeping. by ...: <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2945>; public laanwj / release-notes-0.9.0rc1.txt Last active ... - Gists - GitHub: <https://gist.github.com/laanwj/8693503>; bitcoin - GitHub: <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3644>
1698 2014-02-16 19:49:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yep, it got merged
1699 2014-02-16 19:49:58 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: cool
1700 2014-02-16 19:50:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vekexasia: If you're feeling adventurous, you could upgrade to git master
1701 2014-02-16 19:51:12 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: i think he is
1702 2014-02-16 19:51:26 <vekexasia> michagogo|cloud, what should that do'
1703 2014-02-16 19:51:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: I have reason to believe not
1704 2014-02-16 19:51:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|one sec
1705 2014-02-16 19:51:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|21:46:16 <vekexasia> i need to find a way to calculate the fees upfront
1706 2014-02-16 19:51:52 <vekexasia> yep so?
1707 2014-02-16 19:51:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vekexasia: Git includes coin control
1708 2014-02-16 19:52:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Which, among other things, allows you to (mostly) manually create your transactions
1709 2014-02-16 19:52:31 <sipa> < vekexasia>     "version" : 90000,
1710 2014-02-16 19:52:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|As well as give you stats about sizes and fees
1711 2014-02-16 19:52:36 coeus has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1712 2014-02-16 19:52:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Oh, hmm
1713 2014-02-16 19:52:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vekexasia: Wait, bitcoind or Bitcoin-Qt?
1714 2014-02-16 19:52:51 <vekexasia> bitcoind
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1716 2014-02-16 19:52:54 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: the only way to use coin control in bitcoind is thrugh the raw transaction api
1717 2014-02-16 19:52:58 <vekexasia> i'm using the rpc interface
1718 2014-02-16 19:53:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah.
1719 2014-02-16 19:53:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: right
1720 2014-02-16 19:53:17 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1721 2014-02-16 19:53:17 <vekexasia> sipa, do you've a link to the tutorials you said me about before?
1722 2014-02-16 19:53:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The "original" coin control, as it were -- sorry, I was just assuming bitcoin-qt
1723 2014-02-16 19:53:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vekexasia: What exactly are you running? v0.9.0rc1, or something else?
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1725 2014-02-16 19:54:06 <vekexasia> hpow do i know?
1726 2014-02-16 19:54:30 <sipa> where did you get the binary you're running?
1727 2014-02-16 19:54:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Where did you get what you're run-
1728 2014-02-16 19:54:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|what sipa said
1729 2014-02-16 19:55:04 <vekexasia> github
1730 2014-02-16 19:55:12 <vekexasia> i compiled a couple of days ago
1731 2014-02-16 19:55:18 <vekexasia> maybe a week
1732 2014-02-16 19:56:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vekexasia: Okay, I think you have the safe(r) raw transaction API
1733 2014-02-16 19:56:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That prevents you from accidentally sending too huge fees
1734 2014-02-16 19:56:19 <vekexasia> nice :)
1735 2014-02-16 19:56:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(still be careful, though)
1736 2014-02-16 19:56:41 <vekexasia> well i still have to understand how to use them :P
1737 2014-02-16 19:56:42 <vekexasia> lol
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1739 2014-02-16 19:58:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, how long ago did that go in?
1740 2014-02-16 19:58:18 <vekexasia> what?
1741 2014-02-16 19:58:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, there we go
1742 2014-02-16 19:58:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell:fewer_fee_footguns
1743 2014-02-16 19:58:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|5 months ago
1744 2014-02-16 19:59:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vekexasia: Oh, looks like the threshold is a whole BTC
1745 2014-02-16 19:59:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So you definitely want to be careful and try on testnet first
1746 2014-02-16 19:59:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Basically, it's fairly simple: you call createrawtransaction, and then give it two parameters
1747 2014-02-16 20:00:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|First is an array ([]) of hashes ({}), with each hash having the keys "txid" and "vout"
1748 2014-02-16 20:00:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Each one representing an input
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1750 2014-02-16 20:00:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The second parameter is a hash representing the outputs, with the keys being the addresses and the values being the amounts
1751 2014-02-16 20:00:59 <vekexasia> ok and that gives me?
1752 2014-02-16 20:01:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And, very important: make sure to include a change output
1753 2014-02-16 20:01:14 <vekexasia> change output?
1754 2014-02-16 20:01:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That gives you a hex-serialized, unsigned, raw transaction
1755 2014-02-16 20:01:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vekexasia: Yes. Do you know what change is?
1756 2014-02-16 20:01:30 <vekexasia> no
1757 2014-02-16 20:01:32 <vekexasia> :(
1758 2014-02-16 20:01:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, that's critical
1759 2014-02-16 20:01:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;bc,wiki change
1760 2014-02-16 20:01:42 <gribble> http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change | Oct 31, 2012 ... This is known as change. Say you want to buy a candy bar ($1) from a store. You open your wallet (fiat wallet) and inside there is a single $20 ...
1761 2014-02-16 20:01:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|^
1762 2014-02-16 20:01:45 <kjj> no offense, but if you don't know what change is, you'd better stay the hell away from the raw interface until you do
1763 2014-02-16 20:01:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, what kjj said
1764 2014-02-16 20:02:09 <vekexasia> kjj, no offense at all
1765 2014-02-16 20:02:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's a pretty simple concept, but a very important one
1766 2014-02-16 20:02:14 <vekexasia> 'm here to understand :)
1767 2014-02-16 20:03:43 Aslick has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1768 2014-02-16 20:03:51 <kjj> who wants to add sendtoaddressraw and sendmanyraw to the RPC interface?
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1771 2014-02-16 20:04:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|kjj: So, coin selection and change output, but not signing?
1772 2014-02-16 20:04:41 <kjj> yup
1773 2014-02-16 20:04:49 <vekexasia> that would solve me the issue
1774 2014-02-16 20:04:50 <kjj> useful for things like coin joiners
1775 2014-02-16 20:05:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|kjj: Well, not andytoshi's
1776 2014-02-16 20:05:07 <vekexasia> if i don't have to select the source
1777 2014-02-16 20:05:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Actually, nvm
1778 2014-02-16 20:05:10 <vekexasia> etc
1779 2014-02-16 20:05:18 <kjj> I planted the idea in a few heads a while back, hoping that one of them would do it so I wouldn't have to
1780 2014-02-16 20:05:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ignore the last 2 lines
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1783 2014-02-16 20:05:57 <benten-> Anyone here in London at the moment?
1784 2014-02-16 20:06:09 <kjj> millions, I'd think
1785 2014-02-16 20:06:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|kjj: there are only 27+586 people in here atm
1786 2014-02-16 20:06:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And at least one of them is a bot
1787 2014-02-16 20:07:05 Aslick has joined
1788 2014-02-16 20:07:10 <kjj> oh, sorry.  I wasn't reading carefully, missed the "here"
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1797 2014-02-16 20:16:29 <maaku> kjj: yes, that'd bre useful
1798 2014-02-16 20:17:16 <kjj> I think the problem is that the people that look at it come to the same conclusion.
1799 2014-02-16 20:17:17 sassamo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1800 2014-02-16 20:17:49 sassamo has joined
1801 2014-02-16 20:18:03 <kjj> "unwinding this stack of calls is going to suck.  I'll let someone else do it."
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1803 2014-02-16 20:19:57 <maaku> andytoshi: your faq still says "As Bitcoin’s ECDSA signatures are completely non-malleable, no signed data
1804 2014-02-16 20:19:57 <maaku> can be changed by anyone after the fact"
1805 2014-02-16 20:20:13 <maaku> but we don't know if ECDSA signatures are non-malleable
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1808 2014-02-16 20:23:25 <andytoshi> maaku: oh, that's a semantic subtlety
1809 2014-02-16 20:23:37 <andytoshi> i mean you can't modify the message through the signature
1810 2014-02-16 20:23:52 <andytoshi> i'm talking about ecdsa malleability, not transaction malleability
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1812 2014-02-16 20:24:06 <maaku> andytoshi: yeah but people are going to be reading this because they are confused
1813 2014-02-16 20:24:15 <maaku> and they are going to pick out these little facts and remember them
1814 2014-02-16 20:24:23 non2 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1815 2014-02-16 20:24:36 <maaku> so we should try to be as pedanticly true as possible
1816 2014-02-16 20:24:49 <andytoshi> what i wrote is pedantically true :P
1817 2014-02-16 20:24:59 <maaku> heh
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1819 2014-02-16 20:25:02 <andytoshi> i'll change the sentence to not use the word malleability tho, that's the only place i use it in that sense
1820 2014-02-16 20:25:12 <andytoshi> and you're right that i'm just going to confuse people
1821 2014-02-16 20:25:13 <maaku> but no, i'm talking about the first clause --- yes
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1825 2014-02-16 20:28:06 <maaku> "because an ECDSA signature can't be modified to sign/apply to different data..."
1826 2014-02-16 20:28:11 <maaku> or something
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1828 2014-02-16 20:29:20 <maaku> malleability just needs to be taboo'd there because it is taking on a different technical meaning
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1830 2014-02-16 20:30:32 <benten-> Anyone have any idea how many total gox transactions were mutated?
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1832 2014-02-16 20:31:17 <lnovy> you mean "fixed"?
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1835 2014-02-16 20:32:35 <maaku> benten: gox was sending non-standard transactions which weren't being relayed
1836 2014-02-16 20:33:02 <maaku> somebody was helpfully or accidentally putting them into standard form
1837 2014-02-16 20:33:27 <benten> Ah. I thought gox was trying to re-issue transactions using totally different inputs
1838 2014-02-16 20:33:28 <maaku> (totally separate issue from the more recent PUSHDATA2 dos attack that's going on)
1839 2014-02-16 20:33:38 <kjj> just out of curiosity, how much evidence of this is there?  have the broken versions been found in actual mempools?
1840 2014-02-16 20:33:39 <lnovy> it's actually exactly the opposite of what has happend to others
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1843 2014-02-16 20:34:03 <lnovy> not exactly, but principialy the opposite
1844 2014-02-16 20:35:17 <maaku> benten: they did, which is how they lost money
1845 2014-02-16 20:35:23 <maaku> but that has *nothing* to do with malleability
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1848 2014-02-16 20:35:54 <benten> Out of curiosity, for someone to have figured out the pushdata2 dos attacks in the first place, is this an indicator its someone fairly well versed in bit coin protocol or just a totally random ddos?
1849 2014-02-16 20:36:07 <maaku> kjj: evidence for gox's incompetent serialization? we've been seeing and discussing it here for a year
1850 2014-02-16 20:36:22 <maaku> benten: no, this has been well documented for 3+ years
1851 2014-02-16 20:36:42 <benten> I realize the pushdata2 has, but has the potential for a ddos using it been documented?
1852 2014-02-16 20:36:51 <maaku> yes
1853 2014-02-16 20:36:53 <benten> ah
1854 2014-02-16 20:36:56 <maaku> and it is not a ddos
1855 2014-02-16 20:36:56 <benten> gotcha
1856 2014-02-16 20:37:02 <benten> just dos?
1857 2014-02-16 20:37:05 <kjj> maaku: evidence that someone actually "fixed" them and got them into blocks first
1858 2014-02-16 20:37:33 <maaku> kjj: they don't have to get them in blocks first, as the originals were not being relayed
1859 2014-02-16 20:37:55 <maaku> they just have to peer to gox, correct the tx, and automatically the corrected one will be the one others see
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1861 2014-02-16 20:38:30 <maaku> and again, this could have been unintentional - it's easy to see how an implementation could have not preserved round-trip serialization in the normal course of relaying
1862 2014-02-16 20:38:40 <benten> maaku: any theories into why someone did the dos?
1863 2014-02-16 20:39:01 <kjj> ahh.  so the devs really did screw gox by setting the main client to refuse to relay oddly padded sigs
1864 2014-02-16 20:39:04 <lnovy> maaku: good point, never thought about that!
1865 2014-02-16 20:39:24 <maaku> kjj: what? no
1866 2014-02-16 20:39:43 <kjj> that seems to be a necessary condition for what you are describing
1867 2014-02-16 20:39:52 <maaku> the move to make that non-standard took over a year, and we worked extra hard to track down all the people who were doing non-standard transactions
1868 2014-02-16 20:39:55 <maaku> *including* gox
1869 2014-02-16 20:40:37 <maaku> we had everything short of a big neon sign you can see from space telling people - including gox - about the change and its ramifications
1870 2014-02-16 20:40:55 <kjj> I was being sarcastic about the screwing part
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1872 2014-02-16 20:41:00 <lnovy> ^ this sentence just proved that MT has lied hard in that forbes interview
1873 2014-02-16 20:41:28 <kjj> but what they were doing was totally safe until the network mostly stopped relaying their padded sigs in favor of the repacked ones
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1875 2014-02-16 20:42:03 <maaku> it was still totally safe until they started re-issuing transactions with fresh inputs
1876 2014-02-16 20:42:13 <maaku> (also a giant no-no we've been warning people about)
1877 2014-02-16 20:42:43 <sipa> everyone missed the fact that mtgox's transactions were non-standard, because less than 1% of their transactions had non-DER signatures
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1880 2014-02-16 20:44:13 <kjj> more importantly, once the majority relaying policy on the network flipped over, then their customers, in bulk, had the ability to withdraw funds that would never be reflected in their account balances
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1883 2014-02-16 20:45:09 <kjj> so it no longer needs a conspiracy with a botnet doing high speed relaying of the modified transactions or a miner specifically picking the new versions over the originals
1884 2014-02-16 20:45:22 <Cusipzzz> the fact they reissued withdrawals with fresh inputs based on unconfirmed txids vanishing was the killer
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1886 2014-02-16 20:45:25 <lnovy> that 1% is pretty significant information, thx
1887 2014-02-16 20:46:16 <sipa> lnovy: it's an assumption based on how their signatures were implemented, not an actual observation
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1891 2014-02-16 20:46:51 <lnovy> sipa: anyway it's much much lower than I thought...
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1893 2014-02-16 20:47:35 <sipa> if the R or S values was less than 1/512 of 2^256, they still serialized them as 32 bytes, while DER dictates to not have padding zero byte in front
1894 2014-02-16 20:47:38 <lnovy> now I'm pretty sure that only a handful of coins could be stollen
1895 2014-02-16 20:48:48 <sipa> which, for transactions with 2 inputs, means about 1 in 128
1896 2014-02-16 20:49:13 <lnovy> thx
1897 2014-02-16 20:49:47 <kjj> seems like a simple enough bug to fix.
1898 2014-02-16 20:49:56 <sipa> it was fixed
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1900 2014-02-16 20:50:19 <lnovy> with account verification and daily limits, not a feasible attack then...
1901 2014-02-16 20:51:02 <sipa> that was only how it was detected
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1907 2014-02-16 20:53:32 <lnovy> with each added input the probability is doubled?
1908 2014-02-16 20:53:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, has anyone done the math on priority post-https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2945/files
1909 2014-02-16 20:53:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|?
1910 2014-02-16 20:54:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I know that before that change, the number was 1 BTC for one day in a 250-byte transaction
1911 2014-02-16 20:54:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Still is, in fact
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1966 2014-02-16 21:38:28 <gmaxwell> kjj: mtgox was screwed wrt transactions not getting relayed for a long time, because they were spending immature coins— I assume this is why they had an automated reissue process in the first place.
1967 2014-02-16 21:38:59 <Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: You mentioned a couple of days ago that you canonicalize on signatures, i.e. (r, -(s mod N)) becomes (r, (s mod N)). Is this also the case for relayed transactions?
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1969 2014-02-16 21:39:59 <gmaxwell> No, we never change a relayed transaction.
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1971 2014-02-16 21:40:27 <gmaxwell> we will either relay it or not.
1972 2014-02-16 21:40:28 <Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: Ok
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1997 2014-02-16 21:57:45 <vekexasia> do i have to include the "change" in the sendmany method?
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2004 2014-02-16 22:00:52 <richcollins> are m-of-n tx standard yet?
2005 2014-02-16 22:01:00 <gmaxwell> richcollins: for years
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2007 2014-02-16 22:01:10 <richcollins> gmaxwell: Is there a reference for standard tx?
2008 2014-02-16 22:01:15 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2009 2014-02-16 22:01:18 <richcollins> I couldn't find any recent info
2010 2014-02-16 22:01:55 <richcollins> I see the BIP https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0011
2011 2014-02-16 22:02:06 <richcollins> but no status or discussion
2012 2014-02-16 22:02:23 <gmaxwell> The source code, I'm not aware of any overview. Really you wouldn't have likely seen anything written about m-of-n before they were standard, so I'm not sure where the confusion would have come from that they might not be.
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2019 2014-02-16 22:05:28 <richcollins> First thing I saw was this:
2020 2014-02-16 22:05:28 <richcollins> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/2802/why-are-m-of-n-transactions-not-used-today
2021 2014-02-16 22:05:41 <richcollins> "Almost all nodes on the network will not relay multisignature transactions because they are not "standard," and almost all miners will not include them in the blocks that they create (for the same reason)."
2022 2014-02-16 22:05:52 <richcollins> answered Feb 3 '12 at 1:37 gavinandresen
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2024 2014-02-16 22:06:04 <richcollins> although as you said that was years ago
2025 2014-02-16 22:06:10 <sipa> richcollins: that's not true anymore
2026 2014-02-16 22:06:21 <uiop> richcollins: there are mining pools that accept any transaction (i believe)
2027 2014-02-16 22:06:21 <sipa> they are stNandard now, and have been for a long timr
2028 2014-02-16 22:06:43 <richcollins> and scriptpubkey is:
2029 2014-02-16 22:06:45 <richcollins> 2 <K1> <K2> <K3> 3 CHECKMULTISIGVERIFY
2030 2014-02-16 22:06:45 <richcollins> ?
2031 2014-02-16 22:06:51 <sipa> or p2sh
2032 2014-02-16 22:07:04 <sipa> most multisig usage (even though it is rare) uses p2sh
2033 2014-02-16 22:07:21 <richcollins> which means an input using this scriptpubkey as an output will require at least 2 sigs to validate?
2034 2014-02-16 22:07:33 <sipa> if you want it to
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2037 2014-02-16 22:08:28 <uiop> richcollins: you use the script language to code your requirements
2038 2014-02-16 22:09:05 <richcollins> right so I can use that to create a requirement that any tx that wants to spend that output will require 2 sigs of the 3 keys
2039 2014-02-16 22:09:09 <uiop> (requirements that must be fulfilled for value of that output to be used as input to another tx)
2040 2014-02-16 22:09:21 <uiop> i.e., spent
2041 2014-02-16 22:09:35 <richcollins> but that requirement doesn't say anything about how that output will be spent
2042 2014-02-16 22:09:45 <uiop> how do you mean "how" ?
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2049 2014-02-16 22:10:08 <uiop> *what do you mean by "how"?
2050 2014-02-16 22:10:19 <richcollins> meaning it can contain any scriptpubkey
2051 2014-02-16 22:10:19 <richcollins> as long as 2 of those 3 keys sign it
2052 2014-02-16 22:10:46 <richcollins> 2 <K1> <K2> <K3> 3 CHECKMULTISIGVERIFY locks the corresponding input bitcoin
2053 2014-02-16 22:11:01 <gmaxwell> richcollins: thanks for the pointer for the out of date info, I'll prod gavin to see if he can update his response there.
2054 2014-02-16 22:11:07 <richcollins> and the tx that uses it as an input unlocks it
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2056 2014-02-16 22:11:37 <richcollins> gmaxwell: thanks.  I was expecting to find a list of standard tx somewhere but I didn't find anything recent
2057 2014-02-16 22:11:43 <richcollins> and nothing including m-of-n
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2059 2014-02-16 22:13:02 <richcollins> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script doesn't have it listed as a standard tx, for instance
2060 2014-02-16 22:13:26 <richcollins> although it does have "Standard Transaction to Bitcoin address"
2061 2014-02-16 22:13:32 <richcollins> and "Standard Generation Transaction"
2062 2014-02-16 22:13:43 <uiop> richcollins: you can see the current "rules" here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp
2063 2014-02-16 22:13:45 <uiop> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.h
2064 2014-02-16 22:14:06 <richcollins> thx
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2069 2014-02-16 22:15:13 <richcollins> BTW here is what most people will see when searching for the list of standard transactions
2070 2014-02-16 22:15:14 <richcollins> https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=standard+bitcoin+transactions&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
2071 2014-02-16 22:15:42 <richcollins> (I would guess)
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2074 2014-02-16 22:16:15 <uiop> richcollins: it looks like currently, in IsStandard(), "// Support up to x-of-3 multisig txns as standard"
2075 2014-02-16 22:16:27 <richcollins> I'm experimenting with an implementation of http://nashx.com/HowItWorks using script
2076 2014-02-16 22:16:42 <richcollins> Seems like I should be able to use 2 of 2 multisig
2077 2014-02-16 22:16:55 * uiop want to code up sha256 in script OP_ codes :)
2078 2014-02-16 22:17:00 <uiop> *wants
2079 2014-02-16 22:17:11 <richcollins> both parties sign a tx that encumbers their bitcoin
2080 2014-02-16 22:17:20 <sipa> use OP_SHA256 ?
2081 2014-02-16 22:17:21 <richcollins> and then both parties would have to sign a tx that releases them
2082 2014-02-16 22:17:26 <richcollins> lest they be lost forever
2083 2014-02-16 22:17:34 <uiop> sipa: but that's too easy mang!
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2085 2014-02-16 22:17:48 <sipa> uiop: there is no other way, i think
2086 2014-02-16 22:18:02 <uiop> sipa: if might make a good test case for an evaluator, too
2087 2014-02-16 22:18:32 <uiop> sipa: heh, i mean literally as in the transliteration of "gcc -S"
2088 2014-02-16 22:18:49 <sipa> uiop: you'd need shift operators at least
2089 2014-02-16 22:18:59 <sipa> which are disabled
2090 2014-02-16 22:19:02 <uiop> sipa: oh, yeah
2091 2014-02-16 22:19:13 <gmaxwell> s/disabled/effectively non-existing/.
2092 2014-02-16 22:19:20 <sipa> and mod 2^32
2093 2014-02-16 22:19:24 <uiop> sipa: i guess i'd have to pull out and tweek the evaluator too
2094 2014-02-16 22:19:38 <sipa> uiop: that makes it sort of pointless :)
2095 2014-02-16 22:20:08 <gmaxwell> the script would be longer than the 10k limit too.
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2097 2014-02-16 22:20:25 <uiop> sipa: unfortunately, it does diminish it slightly :)
2098 2014-02-16 22:21:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|23:57:30 <vekexasia> do i have to include the "change" in the sendmany method?
2099 2014-02-16 22:21:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No.
2100 2014-02-16 22:22:11 <uiop> maybe i'll look at what opcodes're currently enabled and try to think of something that'll run
2101 2014-02-16 22:22:28 <uiop> and that's under 10k
2102 2014-02-16 22:22:37 * uiop makes note
2103 2014-02-16 22:22:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|All the send* RPCs take care of input selection, change, and fees for you
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2105 2014-02-16 22:25:05 <uiop> also, any such thing (eg sha256) would be limited to a fixed-size input unfortunately since no loops (not unfortunately)
2106 2014-02-16 22:25:09 * uiop thinks out loud
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2110 2014-02-16 22:27:17 <uiop> ouch, and you'd have to unroll it for each input block
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2119 2014-02-16 22:33:11 <uiop> i bet in 10 years there's be a compiler from C subset (stylyzed stmt-level, like a shader lang or something) to bitcoin script
2120 2014-02-16 22:33:16 <uiop> *there'll
2121 2014-02-16 22:33:35 <sipa> just introduce OP_CPLUSPLUS
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2123 2014-02-16 22:33:45 <uiop> heh
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2128 2014-02-16 22:35:24 <uiop> and all these finance types'll squint into their iRetinas implementing their customers darkest desires
2129 2014-02-16 22:35:38 <gmaxwell> uiop: I don't actually think including the code in the script is all that interesting beyond small sizes, because what we want is not the code but instead proof that the code accepted.
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2131 2014-02-16 22:36:52 <gmaxwell> and once you start getting beyond a few kilobytes there are several different routes for proof-of-knoweldge which should be more compact than the actual program.
2132 2014-02-16 22:38:16 <uiop> gmaxwell: yeah, i hear you on the fine line between sanity and out-of-control-script-reaches-javascript-pandemic-proportions, but with the full range of arith ops and the crypto primitives i bet you could consistently come up with useful primitives you've never thought of if you spent enough time at it
2133 2014-02-16 22:38:42 <uiop> *and that are small enough for sanity
2134 2014-02-16 22:39:02 <HeySteve> ZoltanTokay is spamming virus links
2135 2014-02-16 22:39:39 <HeySteve> thanks. it's that fake Flash update
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2137 2014-02-16 22:41:26 <jcorgan> yeah, he was kicked from #bitcoin a little while ago
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2144 2014-02-16 22:45:39 <uiop> gmaxwell: err, the point i was going for and failed to reach was.. with useful primitives that have enough (but a finite number of) variations that enumerating-and-promoting them to opcodes would get messy
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2151 2014-02-16 22:48:56 <richcollins> It looks like multisig keys aren't hashed?
2152 2014-02-16 22:48:57 <richcollins> https://blockchain.info/tx/09dd94f2c85262173da87a745a459007bb1eed6eeb6bfa238a0cd91a16cf7790?show_adv=true
2153 2014-02-16 22:49:04 <richcollins> Is that to save space?
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2165 2014-02-16 22:55:14 <jakov> thats the other kind of multisig
2166 2014-02-16 22:55:24 <jakov> theres a few kinds
2167 2014-02-16 22:55:30 <jakov> i forget the details
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2169 2014-02-16 22:55:43 <sipa> no, that ia not the reasom
2170 2014-02-16 22:56:00 <sipa> it is because checkmultisig takes public keys, not hashes of them
2171 2014-02-16 22:56:20 <sipa> however, you can take a hash of _all_ the public keys
2172 2014-02-16 22:56:25 <sipa> if you use p2sh
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