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48 2014-02-17 00:44:37 <ibtc> Is there any set time for the next release?
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67 2014-02-17 00:58:53 <gmaxwell> when the did -blockmaxsize= get increased? my nodes here were just choking with >1s gbt latency trying to mine a 750k block.
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70 2014-02-17 01:00:29 <maaku> andytoshi: "Next, because Mt. Gox would not notice the withdrawals, they could request that the withdrawal
71 2014-02-17 01:00:29 <maaku> be reprocessed, and Gox would automatically do so."
72 2014-02-17 01:00:42 <maaku> ^^ change the first "they" to "the customer" (pronoun overload)
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74 2014-02-17 01:01:23 <upb> äo/l andy
75 2014-02-17 01:01:51 <sipa> gmaxwell: recently
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79 2014-02-17 01:03:12 <andytoshi> thx maaku
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85 2014-02-17 01:04:59 <gmaxwell> https://blockchain.info/block-index/468173/0000000000000000ea0e035185296a8aa9288bd0bbe3f0298330beda173fdd71 < some pretty interesting utxo cleanup txn in this block.
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90 2014-02-17 01:06:50 <gmaxwell> several tx with almost 600 txin.
91 2014-02-17 01:06:57 <maaku> andytoshi: also "This can also cause the available balance display to be incorrect" <-- I would clarify this to make certain to the reader that only the display is affected, not the actual spendable balance
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96 2014-02-17 01:10:22 <andytoshi> maaku: i will add after that sentence, "To be clear, this is purely a display bug; there is no loss (or even potential loss) of funds."
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116 2014-02-17 01:43:22 <maaku> andytoshi: sounds good
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119 2014-02-17 01:45:07 <btiefert> I just wrote a quit perl script that counts how many unique client/versions my bitcoind has peered with. I should be able to provide some meaningful demographics soon.
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121 2014-02-17 01:45:20 <btiefert> quick* perl script.
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124 2014-02-17 01:47:43 <maaku> so the SIGHASH_ALL normative/canonical ID would allow coinbase transactions to have the same "ntxid", correct?
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127 2014-02-17 01:48:26 <maaku> I can't think of any problems this causes at the moment, but it's a hidden gotcha
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131 2014-02-17 01:51:01 <gmaxwell> there are a lot of hidden gotchas on ntxid.
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154 2014-02-17 02:14:47 <davvblack> Is there a style guide for the reference client? Or rather, does it adhere to something particular?
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168 2014-02-17 02:25:43 <Luke-Jr> davvblack: imitate what's there, makes a good general rule
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176 2014-02-17 02:30:35 <andytoshi> someone is asking on #bitcoin how git HEAD handles spends of invalidated change
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178 2014-02-17 02:31:07 <davvblack> Doesn't the current head get confused? And show the value twice?
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180 2014-02-17 02:32:06 <davvblack> Part of the hotfix is to make unconfirmed change unspendable
181 2014-02-17 02:32:16 <davvblack> which kind of sidesteps the issue
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187 2014-02-17 02:36:17 <gmaxwell> davvblack: it doesn't make it unspendable, there is an option so you can choose and it defaults to on.
188 2014-02-17 02:36:48 <gmaxwell> It also makes it not spend change which is already doomed (where a conflicting txid has been confirmed) which prevents the problem from snowballing once it has happened.
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260 2014-02-17 03:46:28 <ajoul> so much trouble to install and run bitcoind
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262 2014-02-17 03:46:46 <ajoul> my fucking balls are about to explode, I think something is wrong with my hardware because neither my windows or ubuntu can run this shit
263 2014-02-17 03:46:55 <ajoul> I was having problem running openCL on my computer too
264 2014-02-17 03:47:00 <ajoul> so much bullshit mate
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266 2014-02-17 03:47:04 <ajoul> anyone can help?
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273 2014-02-17 03:49:38 <ibtc> ajoul running bitcoind on windows is as simple as just starting bitcoind.exe
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275 2014-02-17 03:50:14 <davvblack> What problem are you having specifically?
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349 2014-02-17 04:52:02 <Moon_Man> How do I start bitcoin on osx with the -rescan flag?
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357 2014-02-17 05:06:32 <toffoo> Moon_Man type this in Terminal: /Applications/Bitcoin-Qt.app/Contents/MacOS/Bitcoin-Qt -rescan
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361 2014-02-17 05:09:26 <Moon_Man> toffoo: Cool, it's working. Is it normal for the process to become unresponsive? It's using a ton of CPU.
362 2014-02-17 05:09:54 <Moon_Man> And how long would it usually take?
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364 2014-02-17 05:10:58 <toffoo> yes. i think at least a few hours, depends how fast your system is
365 2014-02-17 05:12:11 <Moon_Man> toffoo: Alright, I'll leave it overnight. So if it becomes unresponsive i just leave it alone?
366 2014-02-17 05:12:19 <Moon_Man> Don't try and quit the process and start again?
367 2014-02-17 05:12:45 <toffoo> right, just leave it
368 2014-02-17 05:12:52 <Moon_Man> Gotcha.
369 2014-02-17 05:12:55 <Moon_Man> Thakns
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371 2014-02-17 05:12:59 <Moon_Man> Thanks*
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424 2014-02-17 06:29:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Moon_Man: a rescan will appear to just hang, yes
425 2014-02-17 06:29:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But the time it takes should be on the order of minutes
426 2014-02-17 06:29:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Not hours
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456 2014-02-17 06:49:34 <agentOrange> hey steve!
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460 2014-02-17 06:50:14 <Lasseter> lol
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516 2014-02-17 07:35:58 <freewil> can someone update the link in the github description on bitcoin/bitcoin to use ssl
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536 2014-02-17 07:51:30 <wumpus> freewil: sure
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542 2014-02-17 07:53:03 <freewil> wumpus: thanks
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599 2014-02-17 08:24:49 <Datavetaren> @gmaxwell: Why not canonicalize/normalize signatures on relayed traffic? Wouldn't that be a good half step towards a 100% solution? Or is it too risky?
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621 2014-02-17 08:36:02 <maaku> Datavetaren: that's worse than doing nothing. you''d be actively breaking other people's protocols
622 2014-02-17 08:36:56 <maaku> that may even be what initially got us in this mess (someone accidentally not preserving round-trip serialization during relay)
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627 2014-02-17 08:39:35 <Datavetaren> Maaku: How can it be worse by _only_ converting (r, -(s mod N)) into (r, (s mod N)) (leaving everything else unchanged)? If I understand correctly, the bitcoind client broadcasts canoncalized signatures (r, (s mod N)); never the negative.
628 2014-02-17 08:40:03 <sipa> Datavetaren: there are more bitcoin clients
629 2014-02-17 08:40:16 <maaku> Datavetaren: because you'd be mallating other people's transactions
630 2014-02-17 08:40:27 <maaku> that's exactly what's causing headaches for so many people right now
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633 2014-02-17 08:40:58 <Datavetaren> maaku: Mallaebility is already a problem and has to be dealt with already. This is just steering towards a path where malleability will be eliminated (long term)
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636 2014-02-17 08:41:27 <sipa> it will be eliminates long term
637 2014-02-17 08:41:49 <Datavetaren> sipa: Yes, I know... there are few items left on the list to be implemented. 1 and 6.
638 2014-02-17 08:42:06 <maaku> but not by purposefully mutating people's transactions.
639 2014-02-17 08:42:22 <maaku> not relaying is safer than not mutating
640 2014-02-17 08:42:23 <sipa> but making the experience worse for large part of the ecosystem in the short term may have worse repercussions
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642 2014-02-17 08:43:13 <Datavetaren> maaku: But you can always have "evil" nodes that could mutate relayed transactions anyway; so it's a problem that you just have to be aware with.
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644 2014-02-17 08:43:55 <wumpus> mutating the relayed transactions to canonical form would effectively be a DoS against some clients, on a much larger scale than the current one
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647 2014-02-17 08:44:38 <maaku> Datavetaren: yes but you deal with the problem by making it hard to get non-canonical transactions on the chain, then making it impossible (soft-fork)
648 2014-02-17 08:44:48 <maaku> you *don't* go about mutating other people's transactions
649 2014-02-17 08:44:50 <maaku> that does harm
650 2014-02-17 08:45:10 <wumpus> the solution would be to forbid the non-canonical forms but *after* all clients creating them are fixed
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653 2014-02-17 08:46:29 <Datavetaren> wumpus, maaku: Ok, you've convinced me. It sounds that the current approach is the better one.
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656 2014-02-17 08:47:12 <wumpus> (on the other hand some may be too slow, mtgox never fixed their DER padding even though they knew 0.8 started rejecting it)
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658 2014-02-17 08:48:16 <Datavetaren> wumpus: I know, but hopefully custom bitcoin nodes will learn a lesson and be more reactive next time. I understand that bitcoin core dev is trying to push custom wallets to stay in sync with the new rules.
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661 2014-02-17 08:49:08 <Datavetaren> wumpus: MtGox got wacked because they just didn't care (spending immature coins, etc.) and then ignoring the DER encoding.
662 2014-02-17 08:49:19 <wumpus> yes it should be documented in a BIP what the canonical form is so wallets can prepare
663 2014-02-17 08:50:31 <maaku> wumpus: I think the sad reality is that we can't wait for all wallets to be fixed
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669 2014-02-17 08:51:54 <Datavetaren> maaku: That's reality, but hopefully custom wallets will be more reactive next time. Important changes (like enforcing DER encoding) should also be broadcasted somehow so anyone with custom wallets become aware. Ideally on CNN, but that's not going to happen anytime soon :)
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675 2014-02-17 08:52:59 <wumpus> Datavetaren: releasing a BIP and posting on the mailing list should be enough
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677 2014-02-17 08:53:26 <maaku> Datavetaren: hopefully people will take it more seriously after this experience
678 2014-02-17 08:53:44 <Datavetaren> wumpus: I know it should be enough, but unfortunately it isn't.
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680 2014-02-17 08:54:20 <maaku> the 0.8 change was well announced, and people even did some sleuthing to track down the offenders (e.g. blockchain.info) and get them to change their code
681 2014-02-17 08:54:20 <wumpus> Datavetaren: why not?
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683 2014-02-17 08:54:29 <wumpus> maaku: exactly
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687 2014-02-17 08:55:06 <Datavetaren> wumpus: I fear that most custom wallets clone the bitcoin source code and then "forget" about it; they don't read the github comments every day.
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689 2014-02-17 08:55:37 <wumpus> Datavetaren: they should read the mailing list, it is general and spans implementations
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691 2014-02-17 08:55:52 <wumpus> obviously they don't need to follow all github comments
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695 2014-02-17 08:56:08 <Datavetaren> maaku, wumpus: Well, after this experience I think all custom clients will be more careful. Especially the big ones.
696 2014-02-17 08:56:12 <maaku> I don't follow all the github comments
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698 2014-02-17 08:56:26 <maaku> but if you're writing wallet software, you should be on the bitcoin-development list, period
699 2014-02-17 08:56:28 <sipa> Datavetaren: if most wallets cloned bitcoind, we wouldn't have non-der pushes ever
700 2014-02-17 08:56:38 <maaku> it'd be irresponable not to
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703 2014-02-17 08:57:05 <sipa> my experience is quite the opposite: people hate reading code, so they reimplement everything
704 2014-02-17 08:57:17 <sipa> even the parts that don't need reimplementation
705 2014-02-17 08:57:21 <Datavetaren> maaku: Yes, you just proved MtGox was irresponsible, or they did read didn't care :)
706 2014-02-17 08:58:12 <wumpus> they see reimplementing as a way of learning, which is okay, but it doesn't mean that you should use your own 'educational' version in production... certainly not for an exchange :p
707 2014-02-17 08:58:16 <Datavetaren> sipa: I certainly didn't. There are some problematic aspects in the bitcoin client (SelectCoins() is not particularily efficient), but I made my changes so it is relatively easy to merge in changes.
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712 2014-02-17 09:00:31 <Datavetaren> Anyway, thanks for chatting with you all. Need to get back to "normal" work :)
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786 2014-02-17 09:43:47 <Aurigae> hi guys, what does make vs make -f ?
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790 2014-02-17 09:45:02 <wumpus> try: man make
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793 2014-02-17 09:45:54 <Aurigae> i just want to know what it does, im currently setting up a multi qt client node. I have compiled all the clients yesterday but had dependency conflicts, so i have to do it all again, each qt client seems to have different build commands
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796 2014-02-17 09:46:14 <Aurigae> currenltly fiddleing with namecoin
797 2014-02-17 09:46:53 <Aurigae> i thought to remember the command for ubuntu 12.04 is "make -f upnp=-" to build without upnp
798 2014-02-17 09:47:09 <Aurigae> google isnt that cooperative right now
799 2014-02-17 09:47:53 <wumpus> google is always uncoorporative if you try to search for -x, as it will interpret -x as 'exclude x'
800 2014-02-17 09:48:02 <wumpus> that's why I suggested the man page
801 2014-02-17 09:48:06 <Aurigae> i now operators very will
802 2014-02-17 09:48:14 <Aurigae> "-x" wourld solve that
803 2014-02-17 09:48:37 <Aurigae> brackets tell google to search exactly whats in brackets
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808 2014-02-17 09:49:34 <Aurigae> ill get there, its just a lot time for searching xd
809 2014-02-17 09:51:25 <Aurigae> got it ..
810 2014-02-17 09:51:28 <Aurigae> The way to specify the name of the makefile is with the `-f' or `--file' option (`--makefile' also works). For example, `-f altmake' says to use the file `altmake' as the makefile.
811 2014-02-17 09:51:41 <Aurigae> http://www.chemie.fu-berlin.de/chemnet/use/info/make/make_9.html
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838 2014-02-17 10:04:53 <Aurigae> http://pastebin.com/0jwTwHft recompiled namecoind but still same problem - namecoind running but cant connect to server on ./namecoind getinfo or any other command
839 2014-02-17 10:05:07 <Aurigae> cant even stop it
840 2014-02-17 10:05:57 <Aurigae> solved, lol
841 2014-02-17 10:06:00 <Aurigae> ...
842 2014-02-17 10:06:17 <Aurigae> added too much nodes to the conf
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877 2014-02-17 10:21:41 <anddam> when is approximately 0.9.0 likely to be released?
878 2014-02-17 10:21:59 <anddam> released-ly
879 2014-02-17 10:22:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|anddam: When someone says "Okay, I think we're ready" and others agree
880 2014-02-17 10:22:07 <anddam> make it more adverbish-ish
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882 2014-02-17 10:22:19 <anddam> Okay, I think we're ready
883 2014-02-17 10:22:20 <sipa> "soon, but not too soon"
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885 2014-02-17 10:22:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, there will be at least an 0.9.0rc2
886 2014-02-17 10:22:40 <sipa> we already had 0.9.0rc1, but the malleability issues slow things down a bit now
887 2014-02-17 10:22:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|^
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894 2014-02-17 10:25:28 <akakak> Is blockchain.info undergoing maintenance?
895 2014-02-17 10:25:51 <jeremias> don't know really
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899 2014-02-17 10:28:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|akakak: not afaik. Why?
900 2014-02-17 10:29:23 <akakak> was having some connectivity issues. I looked at their block, looks like they had some downtime.
901 2014-02-17 10:29:33 <akakak> ...not sure if it's over.
902 2014-02-17 10:29:50 <jeremias> they announced some downtime earlier
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905 2014-02-17 10:30:40 <akakak> I'm guessing they are implementing the new normalized ID index
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915 2014-02-17 10:36:38 <Aurigae> hi, why is the symlink to /dev/null in this tut? http://www.wikihow.com/Clear-Bash-History, isnt it enough to just rm ~/.bash_history ?
916 2014-02-17 10:37:26 <wumpus> Aurigae: symlinking is a crude way to prevent bash history from being re-created
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918 2014-02-17 10:38:23 <gmaxwell> though you could just turn it off... there are a bunch of parameters to control history, its size, etc.
919 2014-02-17 10:38:44 * Aurigae is squeezing google once again :) thx guys
920 2014-02-17 10:38:51 <wumpus> indeed that's why I said 'crude way', it's not the official way but people have been doing it for very long
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1055 2014-02-17 11:48:14 <waxwing> (possibly a crazy question): is it possible to encumber a utxo so it can only be spent to a particular address?
1056 2014-02-17 11:48:55 <shaileshg> Hi, in case of escrow using multi-sig (2 out of 3), can bitcoin owner spend his bitcoins if merchant has signed it, but escrow provider hasn't?
1057 2014-02-17 11:49:23 <waxwing> shaileshg, yes, 2 of 3 means any 2 of the 3
1058 2014-02-17 11:49:23 <shaileshg> moreover, can it lead to double spending?
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1060 2014-02-17 11:50:01 <shaileshg> waxwing: user can't sign the spending.. so it has to be escrow provider and merchant (2 out of 3)
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1063 2014-02-17 11:50:44 <shaileshg> but my question is if the transaction is not completed (i.e. escrow provider hasn't yet signed it).. can user spend that bitcoin meanwhile anywhere else?
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1065 2014-02-17 11:51:04 <shaileshg> or does his inputs get blocked
1066 2014-02-17 11:51:12 <waxwing> shaileshg, oh i see. answer should be yes.
1067 2014-02-17 11:51:13 <shaileshg> for the aforementioned transaction
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1070 2014-02-17 11:51:42 <anddam> that's just cute https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3689
1071 2014-02-17 11:51:57 <anddam> and totally troll
1072 2014-02-17 11:52:02 <waxwing> until a tx is broadcast, another tx can be created and broadcast instead. but if you're talking about a utxo in a msig address, obviously the alternative also has to have the proper combination of sigs
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1074 2014-02-17 11:53:51 <shaileshg> waxwing: I am not talking about utxo (correct me if i m wrong).. let user A wants to pay to merchant B using escrow C.. he uses output of previous transactions to pay the merchant.. but need 2 signs of B & C before B can redeem bitcoins..
1075 2014-02-17 11:54:08 <shaileshg> lets say it takes 7 days for A to tell C to release payment to B
1076 2014-02-17 11:54:42 <shaileshg> Can A spend his bitcoins (he used in aforementioned txn) meanwhile?
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1078 2014-02-17 11:54:50 <anddam> while querying the daemon using after applying PR #2802 I'm stumbling into error https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2522
1079 2014-02-17 11:54:52 <shaileshg> if not, how do you ensure / check it
1080 2014-02-17 11:55:11 <shaileshg> if yes, how to implement escrow service
1081 2014-02-17 11:55:31 <waxwing> shaileshg, if A has spent 1BTC into the multisig first, then the escrow (C) is waiting for the merchant (B) to send the goods
1082 2014-02-17 11:55:41 <shaileshg> right..
1083 2014-02-17 11:55:54 <waxwing> at that point the 1BTC is a utxo in the msig address,
1084 2014-02-17 11:56:01 <anddam> I see that's been patched by commiting a lower default max_open_file option in leveldb
1085 2014-02-17 11:56:07 <shaileshg> hmm
1086 2014-02-17 11:56:10 <waxwing> it can only be spent with 2 of the 3 signatories
1087 2014-02-17 11:56:22 <waxwing> signatures rather
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1089 2014-02-17 11:56:29 <shaileshg> okay.. and it will be mined in the blockchain?
1090 2014-02-17 11:56:37 <shaileshg> i.e. registered
1091 2014-02-17 11:56:43 <anddam> why am I getting "LevelDB read failure: IO error: " if that's supposedly been fixed?
1092 2014-02-17 11:57:32 <waxwing> not sure your question shaileshg
1093 2014-02-17 11:57:43 <waxwing> example: https://blockchain.info/address/3ADuJrz6TcXwb36N8GYAmPxiwT4RqMRdfG
1094 2014-02-17 11:57:45 <shaileshg> waxwing: lets say B doesn't ship the goods.. then what would happen.. can A get back his bitcoins
1095 2014-02-17 11:57:50 <waxwing> yes
1096 2014-02-17 11:57:54 <shaileshg> how
1097 2014-02-17 11:58:02 <waxwing> if C is convinced that B defaulted
1098 2014-02-17 11:58:07 <sipa> waxwing: no, you cannot limit what an output can be spent to
1099 2014-02-17 11:58:18 <waxwing> he signs a transaction to send the bitcoins to A
1100 2014-02-17 11:58:25 <waxwing> and A also has to sign it
1101 2014-02-17 11:58:29 <waxwing> sipa, thanks
1102 2014-02-17 11:58:35 <sipa> waxwing: google for coincovenant if you want to hear about exotic ideas that would allow this
1103 2014-02-17 11:58:35 <waxwing> i guessed so but i had to ask :)
1104 2014-02-17 11:58:53 <waxwing> sipa, i kind of also guessed that :)
1105 2014-02-17 11:59:09 <waxwing> sipa, thanks very much for the "link"
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1108 2014-02-17 12:00:30 <shaileshg> waxwing: C has to create new transaction for sending bitcoins to A?
1109 2014-02-17 12:01:03 <shaileshg> If so, how does C gets the bitcoins which were supposed to be received by B as the transaction would have B's address in the output
1110 2014-02-17 12:01:38 <waxwing> the transaction to send out from the 3... address hasn't been fixed at the point where the escrow is set up
1111 2014-02-17 12:01:54 <shaileshg> ohh.. okay
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1113 2014-02-17 12:02:01 <waxwing> think of the multisig address like other addresses: you put money into it, then, later, whoever controls it can spend money out of it
1114 2014-02-17 12:02:14 <shaileshg> right.. p2sh
1115 2014-02-17 12:02:16 <shaileshg> ?
1116 2014-02-17 12:02:22 <waxwing> the difference is that 2 different pubkeys(people) have to decide *together* to spend out of it
1117 2014-02-17 12:02:26 <waxwing> yes p2sh
1118 2014-02-17 12:02:37 <waxwing> sorry i may have violently missed the point; i thought you were talking about p2sh
1119 2014-02-17 12:03:38 <shaileshg> here.. which two parties pubkeys are to be used to decide *together*, out of A, B & C
1120 2014-02-17 12:04:03 <shaileshg> if i m missing some basic things.. any link detailing escrow kind of payments and how to form such transaction would be gr8
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1122 2014-02-17 12:04:35 <waxwing> any 2 of the 3, if you set it up that way
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1124 2014-02-17 12:04:53 <waxwing> in general it can be M of N, but N>3 is nonstandard i think
1125 2014-02-17 12:05:07 <sipa> within P2SH, N can be up to 15or so
1126 2014-02-17 12:05:20 <shaileshg> hmm.. okay
1127 2014-02-17 12:05:40 <waxwing> there's not much documentation, i started from https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/3966071
1128 2014-02-17 12:06:32 <shaileshg> waxwing: okay. thanks :)
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1132 2014-02-17 12:08:59 <waxwing> sipa, i think only eligius is allowing N>3, maybe i'm wrong or not up to date there
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1134 2014-02-17 12:10:00 <sipa> in bare multisig, yes
1135 2014-02-17 12:10:22 <shaileshg> and 2 in the createmultisig is M out of N (3).. ?
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1144 2014-02-17 12:14:57 <waxwing> sipa, what is clothed multisig? :)
1145 2014-02-17 12:15:08 <waxwing> shaileshg, yes M=2 N=3 i nthat example
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1147 2014-02-17 12:16:41 <sipa> waxwing: P2SH
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1149 2014-02-17 12:17:10 <sipa> in bare multisig (so actually putting the M-of-N script in the scriptPubKey), there is a limit of N <= 3
1150 2014-02-17 12:17:21 <sipa> if it's wrapped inside P2SH, there is no such limit
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1152 2014-02-17 12:20:58 <waxwing> sipa, ah ok that's another layer of my lack of knowledge .. is gavin's 2 of 3 example bare multisig?
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1155 2014-02-17 12:21:33 <sipa> no
1156 2014-02-17 12:21:40 <sipa> you can't create those with bitcoind
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1167 2014-02-17 12:34:59 <Aurigae> is there an easy way to prevent nmap scans on my server?
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1178 2014-02-17 12:48:26 <buhbuh> Anyone knows if sipa's secp256k1 implementation is used in bitcoind ?
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1181 2014-02-17 12:55:36 <wumpus> buhbuh: not by default, currently
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1185 2014-02-17 12:56:50 <wumpus> buhbuh: it should be possible to use it, and in time the plan is to switch over
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1220 2014-02-17 13:20:30 <buhbuh> wumpus: thanks. Sipa's implementation looks really good. I wonder what's the performance relative to OpenSSL, and if use of AVX(2) has been explored.
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1228 2014-02-17 13:23:51 <sipa> buhbuh: up to 6x
1229 2014-02-17 13:23:59 <sipa> on x86_64
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1235 2014-02-17 13:28:42 <buhbuh> sipa: waouw. nice. Congrats on the job! With which 'field' implementation ?
1236 2014-02-17 13:29:12 <sipa> the assembly one (5x64_asm)
1237 2014-02-17 13:29:20 <buhbuh> I was reading the glv 'splitk' function.
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1239 2014-02-17 13:29:22 <sipa> i did not write the assembly code, by the way
1240 2014-02-17 13:29:44 <sipa> i also didn't come up with that optimization or the constants involved; Hal Finney did
1241 2014-02-17 13:29:54 <buhbuh> Isn't it possible to pre-compute n/2 as well ?
1242 2014-02-17 13:30:32 <sipa> probably (not looking at the code now), but this method is called exactly once in a verification
1243 2014-02-17 13:30:39 <buhbuh> And also, I do not know for sure but there might be an addition of n/2 too much.
1244 2014-02-17 13:30:53 <buhbuh> I guess to round up to the nearest integer.
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1246 2014-02-17 13:31:19 <sipa> yeah
1247 2014-02-17 13:31:41 <buhbuh> Oh really ? I thought the endomorphism was used quite often to spped up multiplies.
1248 2014-02-17 13:31:51 <buhbuh> I need to read more...
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1251 2014-02-17 13:32:39 <sipa> it's used exactly once to transform p*Q + n*G into p1*Q + p2*Q' + n*G
1252 2014-02-17 13:32:50 <sipa> where p1 and p2 are 128-bit numbers only
1253 2014-02-17 13:32:59 <sipa> and Q' is Q*lambda
1254 2014-02-17 13:33:01 <buhbuh> yes, correct.
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1256 2014-02-17 13:33:52 <buhbuh> meaning once per point multiplication, right ?
1257 2014-02-17 13:34:13 <sipa> we only do one point multiplication
1258 2014-02-17 13:34:18 <sipa> in a verification
1259 2014-02-17 13:34:22 <buhbuh> per verification.
1260 2014-02-17 13:34:23 <buhbuh> yep
1261 2014-02-17 13:34:33 <buhbuh> anyway, it's a detail.
1262 2014-02-17 13:34:57 <buhbuh> How about AVX(2), any idea if it could speed things up ?
1263 2014-02-17 13:35:07 <sipa> i don't know anything about that, tbh
1264 2014-02-17 13:35:07 <buhbuh> ...further ?
1265 2014-02-17 13:35:39 <buhbuh> I mean this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Vector_Extensions
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1267 2014-02-17 13:36:11 <buhbuh> Also, one thing I did not look into yet is modular reduction.
1268 2014-02-17 13:36:45 <buhbuh> Is it taking advantage of the special form of the moduli ?
1269 2014-02-17 13:36:49 <sipa> yes
1270 2014-02-17 13:37:24 <buhbuh> :) You guys did it by the book, eh !
1271 2014-02-17 13:37:50 <sipa> i was inspired a bit by the ed25519 implementations :)
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1273 2014-02-17 13:38:10 <buhbuh> Ahhh. That will explain.
1274 2014-02-17 13:38:32 <sipa> where there is one that uses 5 64-bit limbs to represent field elements
1275 2014-02-17 13:38:38 <sipa> which seemed very useful here
1276 2014-02-17 13:38:48 <sipa> as it means much fewer reductons
1277 2014-02-17 13:38:50 <buhbuh> Then you discarded it ?
1278 2014-02-17 13:38:53 <sipa> no
1279 2014-02-17 13:39:41 <buhbuh> yes, it is a very useful representation.
1280 2014-02-17 13:40:01 <buhbuh> The W-NAF thingy earns you maybe 30-35%.
1281 2014-02-17 13:40:10 <andytoshi> sipa: i have as a course project this semester to investigate batch ecdsa verification, fingers crossed
1282 2014-02-17 13:40:14 <buhbuh> And the GLV mmaybe 25%.
1283 2014-02-17 13:40:40 <buhbuh> But the big win comes from the 5 x 64 representation I suppose.
1284 2014-02-17 13:40:46 <sipa> buhbuh: with GLV it;s around 6x as fast as openssl, without GLV it's more like 4.5x
1285 2014-02-17 13:40:49 <sipa> andytoshi: cool
1286 2014-02-17 13:41:00 <sipa> andytoshi: i still don't understand how it can be useful for us
1287 2014-02-17 13:41:07 <buhbuh> Batch verification is nice. But dangerous :)
1288 2014-02-17 13:41:18 <sipa> andytoshi: as you get an exponential blowup in combinations to test per added signature
1289 2014-02-17 13:41:26 <sipa> as you only know R.x, not the full point R
1290 2014-02-17 13:41:32 <sipa> so there are 2 possibilities for R.y
1291 2014-02-17 13:41:36 <andytoshi> right, yeah
1292 2014-02-17 13:41:56 <buhbuh> Change the protocol to send R.
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1294 2014-02-17 13:42:02 <andytoshi> lol, that would be nice..
1295 2014-02-17 13:42:15 <sipa> buhbuh: if we'd do that, we can just drop ecdsa altogether
1296 2014-02-17 13:42:21 <buhbuh> It's a student project, right ?
1297 2014-02-17 13:42:41 <buhbuh> sipa: oh no, that curve is too nice.
1298 2014-02-17 13:42:51 <andytoshi> buhbuh: sure, but the point is for it to be useful
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1300 2014-02-17 13:42:59 <sipa> buhbuh: i didn't say changing the curve :p
1301 2014-02-17 13:43:01 <andytoshi> buhbuh: we can keep the same curve, just use a different sig algo
1302 2014-02-17 13:43:17 <andytoshi> say, one which can be batch-verified, and has an actual security proof, and is nonmalleable...
1303 2014-02-17 13:43:22 <andytoshi> and faster
1304 2014-02-17 13:43:25 <andytoshi> and simpler
1305 2014-02-17 13:43:38 <buhbuh> sipa: I see. Right. The curve yes, ECDSA, no. That would fly.
1306 2014-02-17 13:43:49 <sipa> can schnorr be batch-verified?
1307 2014-02-17 13:43:53 <sipa> from my reading, it cannot
1308 2014-02-17 13:44:37 <buhbuh> andytoshi: they are reported attack against batch verifications.
1309 2014-02-17 13:44:37 <andytoshi> sipa: eddsa can be, that's essentially schnorr.. you may be right
1310 2014-02-17 13:44:56 <andytoshi> because 'essentially' means he changed the compression and encoding
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1312 2014-02-17 13:45:41 <andytoshi> buhbuh: cite?
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1314 2014-02-17 13:46:17 <buhbuh> let me see...
1315 2014-02-17 13:46:39 <buhbuh> I stumbled upon it when implementing it for our beloved curve.
1316 2014-02-17 13:47:06 <buhbuh> Was recommending randomization. Which basically nullifies the benefits.
1317 2014-02-17 13:47:57 <buhbuh> Maybe this one: https://eprint.iacr.org/2012/582.pdf
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1322 2014-02-17 13:48:50 <buhbuh> + ref 1 and 2.
1323 2014-02-17 13:48:55 <andytoshi> thx buhbuh, i'll check these out
1324 2014-02-17 13:49:35 <buhbuh> But in +principle+ batch verification fully applies to our business.
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1326 2014-02-17 13:50:13 <buhbuh> In +practice+ both the R problem, and the described attacks+recommended wortkaround would appear to make it useless.
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1328 2014-02-17 13:50:41 <andytoshi> cool, this is great to know nonetheless
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1341 2014-02-17 13:55:40 <buhbuh> Did I read somewhere that for our beloved curve, n is congruent to 1 mod 6 )
1342 2014-02-17 13:55:55 <buhbuh> -) + ?
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1344 2014-02-17 13:56:13 <buhbuh> Any way to take advantage of that ?
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1382 2014-02-17 14:25:03 <UukGoblin> WAT
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1385 2014-02-17 14:25:21 <UukGoblin> gox will keep relying on a new-transaction-id?
1386 2014-02-17 14:25:30 <UukGoblin> which will be maintained by blockchain? :-O
1387 2014-02-17 14:25:33 <UukGoblin> sounds rather crazy
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1408 2014-02-17 14:36:53 <helo> when a customer opens a ticket saying "i didn't get the bitcoin i withdrew", apparently they feel that they absolutely must have some long string they can send the user as "proof" to appease them
1409 2014-02-17 14:37:15 <helo> why they don't just send the customer a copy of the transaction itself, i do not know
1410 2014-02-17 14:37:29 <sipa> humans do not like long hexadecimal strings
1411 2014-02-17 14:38:18 <helo> for that matter, there should be an option for the customer to download the tx payload in some way that bitcoin-qt (or other wallet) can see
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1415 2014-02-17 14:42:44 <wumpus> not sure it's a good idea, that would bypass network relaying restrictions and give the user a transaction that will probably never confirm
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1417 2014-02-17 14:43:49 <wumpus> and if it is confirmed the user will see it in his own wallet anyway, so you could refer to it by (n)txid without sending the payload
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1420 2014-02-17 14:46:44 <wumpus> but if desirable it could be implemented as a bitcoin URI extension for example bitcoin:tx=<tx payload>
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1426 2014-02-17 14:50:25 <helo> it seems at least better than getting some txid variant (verifiable only through blockchain.info) of a tx that will never confirm
1427 2014-02-17 14:50:43 <andytoshi> wumpus: if the tx will never confirm, they can bring it here and we can say "gox fucked up", then they can go to gox and say "the devs told me XYZ"
1428 2014-02-17 14:51:04 <andytoshi> then the next time they shutter, we will have logs which show the kinda stuff gox was putting into transactions
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1438 2014-02-17 15:07:02 <wumpus> a client could then show the transaction information and give the option to import it into the wallet (if sent to any receiving addresses in the wallet)
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1440 2014-02-17 15:09:00 <oleganza> hey there. Who is interested in blind ECDSA signatures to be used in blockchain?
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1443 2014-02-17 15:10:20 <oleganza> the idea is to lock the funds in (lets say) 5-of-9 multisig tx with 9 friends (who will later authenticate you in person or over the phone), but to NOT reveal the transaction that they will sign
1444 2014-02-17 15:10:47 <oleganza> so they sign something and will never be able to find on the blockchain if they really signed some tx or not.
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1446 2014-02-17 15:11:47 <kjj> I think a bunch of people would be interested in blind ECDSA signatures in general, but not for anything blockchain related
1447 2014-02-17 15:11:47 <kjj> like I said, a bunch of people
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1449 2014-02-17 15:13:48 <oleganza> kjj: how about that http://oleganza.com/blind-ecdsa-draft-v1.pdf
1450 2014-02-17 15:14:30 <oleganza> kjj: the idea is to avoid having all secrets at once on a single machine. So SSSS or other kinds of 2-factor auth are no go.
1451 2014-02-17 15:14:41 <oleganza> also, see discussion here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=440572.0
1452 2014-02-17 15:16:54 <shesek> oleganza, does it matter if they sign the tx themselves, or provide you with something that allows you to do it yourself?
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1454 2014-02-17 15:17:22 <shesek> oh, "the idea is to avoid having all secrets at once on a single machine"... didn't see that. never mind
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1456 2014-02-17 15:17:35 <oleganza> shesek: they must provide something tied to the hash of my intended transaction
1457 2014-02-17 15:18:03 <oleganza> so if someone stole all my keys, they still can't do anything.
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1459 2014-02-17 15:23:09 <shesek> oleganza, I was thinking about having each friend provide a pubkey, and using your_pubkey*friend_pubkey for each key in the multisig
1460 2014-02-17 15:23:20 <shesek> without revealing your pubkey to them
1461 2014-02-17 15:23:48 <shesek> then, they could provide you with the private key which'll allow you to construct the multisig private keys
1462 2014-02-17 15:24:17 <shesek> without your public key, they can't know what's the actual public keys used in the multisig and see what funds it has
1463 2014-02-17 15:24:25 <shesek> and without your private key, they can't spend
1464 2014-02-17 15:24:33 <shesek> but that doesn't work with "avoid having all secrets at once on a single machine"
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1467 2014-02-17 15:24:57 <oleganza> shesek: exactly
1468 2014-02-17 15:25:00 <shesek> well, it doesn't have to be a single machine, but you'll have to combine your and their private keys somewhere
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1471 2014-02-17 15:28:18 <oleganza> with blind multisig scheme, you only need to make sure your tx hash is not altered. That's pretty easy to do. Then, separate parties sign the transformed hash and give you back signatures
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1475 2014-02-17 15:30:35 <kjj> what was your solution to hiding r ?
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1477 2014-02-17 15:32:14 <oleganza> kjj: i do full blinding / unblinding of both hash and intermediate signature
1478 2014-02-17 15:32:27 <oleganza> kjj: so in the end, both r and pubkey are completely unknown to the signer
1479 2014-02-17 15:32:33 <oleganza> and signature
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1483 2014-02-17 15:33:58 <kjj> yes, but what was your method? I'm trying to avoid having to pull the full PDF
1484 2014-02-17 15:34:08 <oleganza> kjj: PDF is very short
1485 2014-02-17 15:34:17 <oleganza> see #4
1486 2014-02-17 15:34:35 <oleganza> on third page
1487 2014-02-17 15:35:19 <oleganza> jgarzik: would you like to check blind ECDSA signatures proposal? http://oleganza.com/blind-ecdsa-draft-v1.pdf
1488 2014-02-17 15:35:46 <oleganza> "The scheme is particularly useful in a multi- signature transaction (âM-of-Nâ) that securely locks funds using private keys of third parties, but keeps information about the funds absolutely private to the initiator and the recipient of the transaction."
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1490 2014-02-17 15:36:13 <oleganza> kjj: it's just a couple of linear transforms and basic algebra
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1492 2014-02-17 15:36:31 <jgarzik> oleganza, sounds interesting, but busy on other stuff right now
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1522 2014-02-17 16:12:04 <rusty78> Hey am looking to hire a JSON-RPC programmer for a unique back-end implementation of a wallet. If you're interested, PM me for more details.
1523 2014-02-17 16:13:29 <t7> rusty78: what language?
1524 2014-02-17 16:15:09 <rusty78> I had PHP in mind, but there's no strict requirement
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1529 2014-02-17 16:17:45 <agentOrange> rusty78: I can help you
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1534 2014-02-17 16:23:02 <maaku> oleganza: might want to ask on wizards
1535 2014-02-17 16:23:37 <oleganza> maaku: ?
1536 2014-02-17 16:25:45 <maaku> your blind ecdsa paper
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1539 2014-02-17 16:26:03 <maaku> tryasking for input on #bitcoin-wizards
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1541 2014-02-17 16:26:17 <oleganza> ah, ok
1542 2014-02-17 16:26:18 <oleganza> thanks
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1544 2014-02-17 16:28:58 <maaku> waxwing: you might be interested in reading about "coincovenants" (google it)
1545 2014-02-17 16:29:19 <sipa> maaku: already mentioned it to him :)
1546 2014-02-17 16:29:27 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1547 2014-02-17 16:29:32 <maaku> ah thx
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1573 2014-02-17 16:58:51 <elgrecoFL> Everything good with Bitcoin? many sites are reporting different block heights.
1574 2014-02-17 16:59:52 <jouke> what sites?
1575 2014-02-17 17:00:12 <jouke> I am at 286372
1576 2014-02-17 17:00:27 <elgrecoFL> wait... they just caught up. sry.
1577 2014-02-17 17:00:33 <Cusipzzz> 286372
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1581 2014-02-17 17:05:15 <helo> that block was 30 minutes old... "slow site slow"
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1599 2014-02-17 17:21:47 <NeatBasis> Can this work? In a 2 out of 3 multidig address, 2 people sign the same unsigned transaction and we have now 2 signed transactions. Can we derive a valid broadcastable transaction from these 2 transactions?
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1605 2014-02-17 17:23:15 <sipa> NeatBasis: that is incorrect
1606 2014-02-17 17:23:27 <sipa> NeatBasis: two people together create a single transaction
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1608 2014-02-17 17:23:44 <sipa> there are no two different versions of the transaction involved
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1610 2014-02-17 17:24:14 <NeatBasis> that's what I thought. I was having an argument that there is no way this could work
1611 2014-02-17 17:24:36 <sipa> how so?
1612 2014-02-17 17:25:21 <sipa> well, to be honest, one way to implement it is effectively by doing what you say
1613 2014-02-17 17:25:54 <sipa> but i think most implementations now go unsigned -> one party signs -> second party signs -> broadcast
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1618 2014-02-17 17:27:59 <NeatBasis> Well I had the understanding that the signatures are layered upon eachother
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1620 2014-02-17 17:28:21 <bitnumus> anyone here experienced with highcharts fancy a small job ?
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1622 2014-02-17 17:28:47 <sipa> NeatBasis: signatures never sign eachother
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1624 2014-02-17 17:30:09 <NeatBasis> So it would be possible to take one unsigned transaction, deliver it to the key holders for signing and then combine the signed transactions into a valid transaction?
1625 2014-02-17 17:30:19 <sipa> should be, yes
1626 2014-02-17 17:30:39 <NeatBasis> ok. nice.
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1628 2014-02-17 17:32:30 <oleganza> sipa: i'd love to hear your thoughts on blind signatures: http://oleganza.com/blind-ecdsa-draft-v1.pdf
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1713 2014-02-17 18:23:48 <muhoo> NeatBasis: pretty sure i've done it. it was a thread called "i taint rich"
1714 2014-02-17 18:24:04 <muhoo> that is where i learned of it
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1723 2014-02-17 18:26:48 <NeatBasis> muhoo found it
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1725 2014-02-17 18:27:18 <NeatBasis> still need to educate myself a lot more it seem
1726 2014-02-17 18:27:20 <NeatBasis> s
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1751 2014-02-17 18:39:35 <bitblender> Is there any way of calculating the fee when doing a createrawtransaction? Like when i have my two arrays of inputs outputs for the transaction, can i send this so some RPC call and get a transaction fee value back?
1752 2014-02-17 18:40:16 <bitblender> i have seen some formulas for calculating fee but thats not all that is needed... there is age of the UTXO's used also
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1754 2014-02-17 18:41:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bitblender: fee is outputs minus inputs
1755 2014-02-17 18:41:25 <jgarzik> bitblender, if you are using createrawtransaction, you REALLY REALLY need to know the answer to that before using createrawtransaction... The fee is easy, itself: "inputs - outputs == fee"
1756 2014-02-17 18:41:41 <bitblender> and hopefully we will have dynamic fee soon, is there going to be a way of calculating this?
1757 2014-02-17 18:42:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What that makes dynamic isn't what fee is attached to transactions
1758 2014-02-17 18:42:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But rather, what fee the software, when creating a transaction, will add
1759 2014-02-17 18:42:48 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, the reverse... inputs - outputs == fee
1760 2014-02-17 18:42:57 <bitblender> yeah i just add 0.0001 to them all now, and its always one input and two outputs (one for change)... seems it should be enough
1761 2014-02-17 18:43:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Erm, yes, that is what I meant
1762 2014-02-17 18:43:03 <sipa> bitblender: do you want to know the fee *of* a raw transaxtions, or what fee is *needed* when creating one?
1763 2014-02-17 18:43:09 <bitblender> also i have used this formula $size = (float) count($txinputs) * 148 + 44 / 1024;
1764 2014-02-17 18:43:14 <bitblender> maybe thats not right...
1765 2014-02-17 18:43:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bitblender: I think it's 1000, not 1024
1766 2014-02-17 18:43:28 <sipa> bitblender: the formula is just bytes*feeperbyte
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1768 2014-02-17 18:43:46 <bitblender> ouh
1769 2014-02-17 18:43:47 <jgarzik> bitblender, Building raw transactions has a history of programmers getting fees wrong. We've sometimes seen fees of 5-90 BTC accidentally attached to a TX
1770 2014-02-17 18:43:48 <sipa> bitblender: there is an old rule that allows free transactions in some cases
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1772 2014-02-17 18:44:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, and 148 is the number for compressed pubkeys, are you using those?
1773 2014-02-17 18:44:05 <sipa> bitblender: which requires sufficient priority
1774 2014-02-17 18:44:10 <jgarzik> in general, these are dangerous waters
1775 2014-02-17 18:44:15 <jgarzik> look at outputs via 'gettxout'
1776 2014-02-17 18:44:24 <sipa> where priority is defined the way you mention
1777 2014-02-17 18:44:29 <bitblender> but i think all my transactions is going to be under 1000 bytes as they all use only one unspenttransaction as input and two outputs, one for change.
1778 2014-02-17 18:44:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bitblender: How old are the inputs you're spending?
1779 2014-02-17 18:44:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And how big?
1780 2014-02-17 18:44:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, is a fast confirmation important to you?
1781 2014-02-17 18:44:57 <sipa> you need 1 btc * 1 day per 250 bytes
1782 2014-02-17 18:45:05 <sipa> for the priority rule
1783 2014-02-17 18:45:09 <bitblender> alright
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1785 2014-02-17 18:45:16 <bitblender> hmm 144 confirms
1786 2014-02-17 18:45:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Note that as of 0.9, the 250 bytes isn't the transaction size
1787 2014-02-17 18:45:22 <bitblender> is 1 day if im correct
1788 2014-02-17 18:45:27 <sipa> yes
1789 2014-02-17 18:45:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But rather, the modified transaction size, with 110 bytes subtracted per input
1790 2014-02-17 18:46:14 <bitblender> sipa to answer your question its the fee needed when creating one
1791 2014-02-17 18:46:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So a 250-byte transaction with 1 input counts as a 140-byte transaction
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1793 2014-02-17 18:46:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Meaning that it requires fewer "bitcoin-days destroyed", to use one term for it
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1796 2014-02-17 18:50:23 <bitblender> all this math is already included somewhere in the bitcoin reference client but there seems to be no easy way of reaching it...
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1799 2014-02-17 18:52:01 <davvblack> just a simple "What should the fee for this be?"?
1800 2014-02-17 18:52:25 <sipa> well there isn't an interface for deciding outputs either
1801 2014-02-17 18:52:47 <davvblack> you mean handling change?
1802 2014-02-17 18:52:50 <bitblender> that would be nice, like a function that takes the same inputs as createrawtransaction but just gives me the fee needed
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1805 2014-02-17 18:53:17 <bitblender> im listing with listunspent and then sorting to use the oldest first
1806 2014-02-17 18:53:28 <jgarzik> not as easy -- the fee might impact input selection
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1809 2014-02-17 18:53:39 <bitblender> creating two arrays, .. send it to createrawtransaction
1810 2014-02-17 18:53:41 <sipa> bitblender: even more needed is something like sendmany, but creating a raw transaction instead of sending it
1811 2014-02-17 18:53:42 <jgarzik> you might need to add or adjust inputs, to include the fee
1812 2014-02-17 18:53:55 <sipa> that could alsp deal with fees
1813 2014-02-17 18:54:01 <sipa> because of what jgarzik says
1814 2014-02-17 18:54:05 <shesek> and add an output for the change, which can also change the required fees
1815 2014-02-17 18:54:16 <bitblender> hmmm
1816 2014-02-17 18:54:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's a whole chicken-and-egg thing
1817 2014-02-17 18:54:25 <shesek> unless you have an exactly sized inputs that don't leave change
1818 2014-02-17 18:54:27 <rusty78> Hey am looking to hire a JSON-RPC programmer for a unique back-end implementation of a wallet. If you're interested, PM me for more details.
1819 2014-02-17 18:54:28 <bitblender> yeah...
1820 2014-02-17 18:54:51 <jgarzik> rusty78, This is not an appropriate channel for job ads...
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1822 2014-02-17 18:55:21 <rusty78> Alright mb, I was told earlier I could if I kept it to a minimum
1823 2014-02-17 18:55:34 <davvblack> iirc, 0<N
1824 2014-02-17 18:55:39 <davvblack> so not mentioning it would be the minimum
1825 2014-02-17 18:55:55 <davvblack> for all natural N
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1828 2014-02-17 18:56:11 <rusty78> Minimum was meant as not very often in the specific context, however my bad, I will lay off
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1848 2014-02-17 19:11:13 <lechuga_> is OP_RETURN standard now?
1849 2014-02-17 19:12:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lechuga_: define "now"
1850 2014-02-17 19:12:46 <gmaxwell> better, why are you asking?
1851 2014-02-17 19:12:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's not stable in any released version
1852 2014-02-17 19:12:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And ^
1853 2014-02-17 19:13:05 PK is now known as PK|Dinner
1854 2014-02-17 19:13:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hint: if it's "to use it", you shouldn't
1855 2014-02-17 19:13:37 <Logicwax> so its not realisticly useable yet?
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1858 2014-02-17 19:14:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Logicwax: It shouldn't be used
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1860 2014-02-17 19:14:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|just about ever
1861 2014-02-17 19:14:50 <Logicwax> because?. ......stability?
1862 2014-02-17 19:15:04 <sipa> because it's still abuse of the network
1863 2014-02-17 19:15:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No, because it's ab-what sipa said
1864 2014-02-17 19:15:13 <sipa> just slightly less painful abuse
1865 2014-02-17 19:15:19 <sipa> compared to the alternatives
1866 2014-02-17 19:15:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|+11
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1869 2014-02-17 19:16:39 <maaku> lechuga_ Logicwax : there are few if any reasons to ever use OP_RETURN
1870 2014-02-17 19:16:54 <maaku> but if you insist on throwing data in your transactions that's the way to do it
1871 2014-02-17 19:17:08 <maaku> please don't rape the network, but if you do at least use a condom
1872 2014-02-17 19:17:10 <Logicwax> i can think of a few
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1875 2014-02-17 19:17:28 <sipa> hint: whatever you're putting in the transaction, you can probably just tell the recipient in private
1876 2014-02-17 19:17:30 <Logicwax> i mean it was there for a reason right?. prunable outputs
1877 2014-02-17 19:17:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Logicwax: 21:16:40 <maaku> but if you insist on throwing data in your transactions that's the way to do it
1878 2014-02-17 19:17:50 <sipa> Logicwax: no, the reason is people are putting data in transactions already, and in ways that hurt more
1879 2014-02-17 19:17:50 <Goonie> Is there any new spam activity going on? New = today or maybe since yesterday.
1880 2014-02-17 19:17:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Specifically because it's prunable
1881 2014-02-17 19:18:02 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: meh, proof-of-publication is generically useful. consider for example my decentralized exchange application which absolutely needs it, as well as my earlier announce/commit sacrifices, which again need it
1882 2014-02-17 19:18:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: I'm pretty sure I said "almost"
1883 2014-02-17 19:18:36 <sipa> petertodd: useful doesn't imply that it's no abuse, by some definitions
1884 2014-02-17 19:18:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And als- sipa'd again
1885 2014-02-17 19:18:58 <Logicwax> i have a friend who runs a vpn service who is interested in having btc tx's be used to fully automate account creation.. the prunable outputs are great for username or refund addr
1886 2014-02-17 19:18:59 <sipa> using the blockchain as a fileserver is also "useful", just very inefficient
1887 2014-02-17 19:19:10 <sipa> Logicwax: please use the payment protocol for that
1888 2014-02-17 19:19:21 <sipa> Logicwax: there is absolutely no need for spamming the world with that information
1889 2014-02-17 19:19:22 <petertodd> sipa: heh, I've got unreleased code for doing exactly that
1890 2014-02-17 19:19:42 <Logicwax> payment protocol?
1891 2014-02-17 19:19:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: I saw a blog post that says there's alreade code for that in the blockchain
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1893 2014-02-17 19:19:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: ...
1894 2014-02-17 19:20:08 <Luke-Jr> maaku: two wrongs don't make a right :<
1895 2014-02-17 19:20:17 <sipa> yeah, i'm tired
1896 2014-02-17 19:20:19 <sipa> sorry
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1901 2014-02-17 19:20:47 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, http://www.righto.com/2014/02/ascii-bernanke-wikileaks-photographs.html ?
1902 2014-02-17 19:20:53 <sipa> Logicwax: a new protocol for negotiating a transaction on the fly
1903 2014-02-17 19:21:00 <sipa> Logicwax: by talking to the receiver directly
1904 2014-02-17 19:21:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: I think that was the one, yes
1905 2014-02-17 19:21:11 <sipa> Logicwax: which includes a memo field, and a refund address
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1907 2014-02-17 19:21:22 <shesek> not quite as a filesystem, its a python script that merges txs/outputs into binary files
1908 2014-02-17 19:21:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Logicwax: ,,(google --lucky --snippet BIP 70), IIRC
1909 2014-02-17 19:21:25 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0070 | BIP: 70 Title: Payment Protocol Author: Gavin Andresen <[email protected]> Status: Draft Type: Standards Track Created: 29-07-2013Â ...
1910 2014-02-17 19:21:42 <Logicwax> yeah but for privacy concerns that wouldnt satisfy a lot of requirements
1911 2014-02-17 19:21:45 <shesek> but I did see someone mentioning that he knows someone who wanted to write an actual filesystem driver that uses the blockchain as a backend
1912 2014-02-17 19:21:51 <sipa> Logicwax: ?
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1914 2014-02-17 19:22:09 <sipa> Logicwax: it's much more private than putting it in the blockchain for everyone to see ffw
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1916 2014-02-17 19:22:51 <Logicwax> no cus you could encrypt it....and the service passivly recieves the data
1917 2014-02-17 19:22:59 <sipa> use tor
1918 2014-02-17 19:23:02 <Logicwax> im just saying, there are good uses
1919 2014-02-17 19:23:10 <sipa> this is certainly not one
1920 2014-02-17 19:23:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Logicwax: Maybe, but if so, that's not ojne of them
1921 2014-02-17 19:23:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...sipa'd one more -_-
1922 2014-02-17 19:23:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|once*
1923 2014-02-17 19:23:43 <sipa> the cost of burdening every node in the world forever with your totally private data that nobody but you and the receive care about
1924 2014-02-17 19:23:52 <Logicwax> this prunable outputs thing is like parents reluctantly giving kids condoms, or the gov giving clean needles to druggies
1925 2014-02-17 19:23:52 <sipa> does not weigh up to you not using tor if you want some privacy
1926 2014-02-17 19:24:12 <Logicwax> "its there to prevent worse abuse but dont use it!"
1927 2014-02-17 19:24:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Logicwax: Exactly.
1928 2014-02-17 19:24:36 <gmaxwell> yes, its like giving clean needles to druggies. :P
1929 2014-02-17 19:24:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah, I think that one fits more than the first
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1931 2014-02-17 19:25:33 <sipa> i love the analogy :)
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1937 2014-02-17 19:26:06 <gmaxwell> "The drug addiction is bad, but HIV infections are worse."
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1939 2014-02-17 19:26:31 <maaku> gmaxwell: that's much better
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1942 2014-02-17 19:27:15 _syslog has joined
1943 2014-02-17 19:27:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Although...
1944 2014-02-17 19:27:48 ericmuys_ has joined
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1946 2014-02-17 19:27:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The rape analogy gets the point across that it's hurting the whole network
1947 2014-02-17 19:28:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The clean needles protect the user, not the rest of the world
1948 2014-02-17 19:28:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|While our case is the exact opposite
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1950 2014-02-17 19:29:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The user doesn't care that he has to store that data forever, he's glad to. It's everyone else that's hurt by being forced to keep the data around.
1951 2014-02-17 19:29:46 <maaku> yeah i don't like cheapening the r-word though
1952 2014-02-17 19:29:58 <Luke-Jr> I don't think it cheapens it.
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1954 2014-02-17 19:30:30 <Luke-Jr> more like it expresses that spam *really is* bad, not "oh, just copyright infringement"
1955 2014-02-17 19:30:42 <Luke-Jr> or "oh, just stupid drug laws"
1956 2014-02-17 19:30:55 <Logicwax> but isnt prunable outputs mean its not kept around?
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1958 2014-02-17 19:30:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Logicwax: NO.
1959 2014-02-17 19:31:03 <Luke-Jr> Logicwax: not kept around IN ONE PLACE
1960 2014-02-17 19:31:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's pruned from the UTXO set and that's IT
1961 2014-02-17 19:31:13 <Luke-Jr> still has to be kept everywhere else
1962 2014-02-17 19:31:54 <Logicwax> oh that makes sense now.. i was wondering how it was prunable without effecting the merkle tree
1963 2014-02-17 19:32:02 Eiii has joined
1964 2014-02-17 19:32:47 <maaku> everyone who syncs the block chain from now until eternity will have to download and process and store those OP_RETURN outputs
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1966 2014-02-17 19:33:26 <Logicwax> well theres always shared secrets via stealth txs
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1970 2014-02-17 19:34:30 <Logicwax> speaking of which, im still looking for a reason why its not good to use the pubkey of one of the inputs instead of a separate nonce
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1972 2014-02-17 19:34:57 <_syslog> my project almost completed. here is the first look http://s3.postimg.org/qjfygcuk2/screen1.jpg
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1975 2014-02-17 19:36:27 <sipa> that looks extensive
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1977 2014-02-17 19:37:44 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: because the author of the transaction may not have any of those secrets (consider an offline wallet), because if they're reused the secret will be repeated, and becase it marries you to using ECDSA to control your own coins transactions.
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1980 2014-02-17 19:39:05 <Logicwax> well in the case that you do have those secrets
1981 2014-02-17 19:39:40 <Logicwax> because all alice needs to do is her privkey x bobs pubkey, then adds that result to his pubkey addr
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1983 2014-02-17 19:40:14 <_syslog> @sipa as you know my english is not well, you refer to window width or something else ?
1984 2014-02-17 19:40:18 <Logicwax> and he just scans all txs of the network and grinds each pubkey input against his privkey, then takes result and adds to his pubkey
1985 2014-02-17 19:40:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|_syslog: I think he means that it does a lot
1986 2014-02-17 19:40:38 <Logicwax> if the result addr is the output then tx is for him
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1988 2014-02-17 19:40:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(or something like that)
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1990 2014-02-17 19:41:06 <Logicwax> everyone insists that alice should make another pub/priv key pair and transmit the nonce over side channel
1991 2014-02-17 19:41:14 <Logicwax> but i dont see how thats any more secure
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1994 2014-02-17 19:42:40 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: please reread my message.
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1997 2014-02-17 19:43:39 <Logicwax> how is it reused?. alice only gets the same secret when sending to bon
1998 2014-02-17 19:43:42 <Logicwax> *bob
1999 2014-02-17 19:43:46 <Logicwax> not to anyone else
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2002 2014-02-17 19:44:35 <Logicwax> and youre still married to ECDSA whether you communicate a separate nonce or not
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2005 2014-02-17 19:45:27 <gmaxwell> I made three sepereate points. (1) your own signing key may be in an offline wallet, so you may not have access when you author the transaction online to use any of those secrets.
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2008 2014-02-17 19:45:56 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: (2) alice paying to bob would also pay the same address, making it distinguishable; which was the goal to avoid.
2009 2014-02-17 19:46:03 <Logicwax> yes.. agree with (1)
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2015 2014-02-17 19:46:33 <Logicwax> no, she would be paying to bob+secret = new addr
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2017 2014-02-17 19:46:44 <gmaxwell> (3) alice could no-longer use non-ECDSA scriptpubkeys to control her own coins if she wanted to send to possible bob's using stealth. (or even ecdsa but some fancy script that bob won't know how to extract the pubkey from)
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2021 2014-02-17 19:47:17 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: every time alice pays bob she would pay to the _same_ address the alice previously paid to bob.
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2025 2014-02-17 19:47:59 <Logicwax> ok, understood.. if she pays to bob repeatidly
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2030 2014-02-17 19:48:24 <Logicwax> but at least for each payor its unique
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2032 2014-02-17 19:48:42 <Logicwax> plus it would only be the same if she used the same inputs again though
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2034 2014-02-17 19:49:06 <Logicwax> so actuat no....wouldnt sending to bob a 2nd time be a diff addr?
2035 2014-02-17 19:49:15 <gmaxwell> no.
2036 2014-02-17 19:49:29 <Logicwax> since the secret is based off of her privkey x his pubkey
2037 2014-02-17 19:49:37 <Logicwax> privkey of her input
2038 2014-02-17 19:51:08 <Logicwax> cus all bob has to do is grind every tx pubkey against his privkey....then he has secret which to build a new addr to test against for any outputs
2039 2014-02-17 19:51:34 <Logicwax> and her inputs would be different each time she paid
2040 2014-02-17 19:51:56 <gmaxwell> No, because many people frequently reuse keys for a multitude of reasons.
2041 2014-02-17 19:52:36 <Logicwax> yeah if she re-used inputs again
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2043 2014-02-17 19:52:59 <gmaxwell> you can't re-use an input; but a distinct input could have the same scriptPubKey.
2044 2014-02-17 19:53:11 <Logicwax> if she had more money sent to same reused addr, then she would have same shared secret
2045 2014-02-17 19:53:28 <gmaxwell> correct.
2046 2014-02-17 19:53:29 <Logicwax> right.. thats what i meant to say
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2048 2014-02-17 19:54:53 <Logicwax> so others have said that not providing the nonce separately is less secure.....so is addr reuse of the inputs the only answer as to why?
2049 2014-02-17 19:55:13 <Logicwax> (youre other points dont touch on security, just on how universal this is)
2050 2014-02-17 19:55:35 <gmaxwell> ... making it impossible for senders to use an offline wallet is pretty concerning for security.
2051 2014-02-17 19:55:54 <gmaxwell> not to mention the implications for coinjoins, which I didn't mention
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2053 2014-02-17 19:56:44 <Logicwax> well, thats more of "does not support offline wallets"
2054 2014-02-17 19:56:50 <Logicwax> or coinjoins
2055 2014-02-17 19:57:03 <Luke-Jr> Logicwax: that's "less secure"
2056 2014-02-17 19:57:11 <Logicwax> but some were simply stating that using alices pubkey is less secure in of itself
2057 2014-02-17 19:57:15 <gmaxwell> It means that no one who uses these things can send you coins. This is highly undesirable.
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2059 2014-02-17 19:57:27 <Logicwax> true
2060 2014-02-17 19:57:44 <gmaxwell> (cant upgrade their cryptosystem/ etc)
2061 2014-02-17 19:57:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: sounds like a good way for a criminal to try to social engineer someone into putting their wallet online ;)
2062 2014-02-17 19:58:24 <Logicwax> well ecsda is plenty good enough
2063 2014-02-17 19:58:54 <Logicwax> i just think using this stealth technique is useful in communicating more without bloating blockchain
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2065 2014-02-17 19:59:11 <Logicwax> as the shared secret could be used for things like account creation, etc
2066 2014-02-17 19:59:11 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: ecdsa has considerable problems, though not related to the basic security. Including no native ability to do threshold signatures.
2067 2014-02-17 19:59:32 <sipa> Logicwax: if you're doing bidirection communication with the receiver, there is no need for stealth addresses
2068 2014-02-17 20:00:02 <Logicwax> sipa: thats the point.. to cut down on bidirection
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2070 2014-02-17 20:01:49 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: a single x-corrid is probably worth avoiding the crazy layering violations and suicide pact bonding of how you manage your own coins from whom you're able to send funds to.
2071 2014-02-17 20:02:02 <Logicwax> like in my friends vpn example.. he wants to provide vpns and have it totallly automated and
2072 2014-02-17 20:02:32 <gmaxwell> at one point I suggested supporting either orâ but its an extra distinguisher, and it increases implementation complexity a lot to have to try to go figure out the publickey, exp since it may not even be in the transaction paying you.
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2074 2014-02-17 20:03:26 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: if you're running a VPN service, presumably you have internet access and don't need to try to communicate over the blockchain.
2075 2014-02-17 20:03:34 <Logicwax> its not too hard to send coins from offline wallet to new temp addr that you control before forwarding again
2076 2014-02-17 20:04:39 <Logicwax> the point is, he wants very little comm with users.. as nowadays you can be subpoened and are liable for keeping records.. going towards an automated passive route is less liability for the vpn owner
2077 2014-02-17 20:05:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Logicwax: Erm, with VPN signups you are, by definition, going to have bidirectional communication
2078 2014-02-17 20:05:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It can be as simple as a web form that takes a username and password to register and gives you back an address to pay to
2079 2014-02-17 20:05:48 <Logicwax> not exactly.. not for "signups"
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2081 2014-02-17 20:06:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, for a VPN service
2082 2014-02-17 20:06:07 <Logicwax> shared secret could be usrrname and password
2083 2014-02-17 20:06:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You are going to have the user connecting to you
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2085 2014-02-17 20:06:42 <Logicwax> user connecting to you could be from other bouncers or vpns.. thats up to the user how much they want to divulge
2086 2014-02-17 20:07:04 <Logicwax> this is at least puts it in the hands of the user
2087 2014-02-17 20:07:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|My point is, they're connecting to you for the traffic going through the VPN
2088 2014-02-17 20:07:34 <Logicwax> yes.
2089 2014-02-17 20:07:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|They can use the same method of communication to have you give them an address to pay
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2092 2014-02-17 20:08:42 <Logicwax> but this opens the door for other things where you would want to send coins somewhere and have it cause some state change in that service that you share a secret eith
2093 2014-02-17 20:08:46 <Logicwax> *with
2094 2014-02-17 20:09:54 <Logicwax> you could, in my example, create a vpn account to use in the future.. that would have no connection to you until the day you useit
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2096 2014-02-17 20:10:37 <Logicwax> could also allow users to pick things from store or machine by eventually giving shared secret to unlock
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2098 2014-02-17 20:11:21 <Logicwax> point is, comm in one direction.. things waiting for you whenever you want
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2100 2014-02-17 20:13:33 PK is now known as Dinner!~PK@pdpc/supporter/active/pk|PK
2101 2014-02-17 20:13:43 <midnightmagic> or you could just use frost or syndie or i2pbote or any one of a half-dozen other non-p2p messaging mechanisms that are already deployed
2102 2014-02-17 20:14:10 <Logicwax> thats complex
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2104 2014-02-17 20:14:55 <Logicwax> much easier for bob to grind TXs pubkeys against his privkey and check outputs against result
2105 2014-02-17 20:15:07 <Logicwax> that way its passive and automated
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2198 2014-02-17 21:14:35 <donta> ;;seen Luke-Jr
2199 2014-02-17 21:14:35 <gribble> Luke-Jr was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 hour, 16 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: sounds like a good way for a criminal to try to social engineer someone into putting their wallet online ;)
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2273 2014-02-17 22:07:33 <flound1129> does salvagewallet blow away all unbroadcasted tx's?
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2275 2014-02-17 22:08:43 <sipa> yes
2276 2014-02-17 22:08:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|flound1129: Yes
2277 2014-02-17 22:08:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(it actually does more than that...)
2278 2014-02-17 22:08:58 <sipa> all unconfirmed transactions, even
2279 2014-02-17 22:09:07 <sipa> and address book entries
2280 2014-02-17 22:09:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It deletes everything but keys
2281 2014-02-17 22:09:10 <sipa> and labels
2282 2014-02-17 22:09:12 <sipa> and moves
2283 2014-02-17 22:09:15 <sipa> and accounts
2284 2014-02-17 22:09:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|All metadata is wiped
2285 2014-02-17 22:09:22 <sipa> and timestamops
2286 2014-02-17 22:09:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you run git head, there's a command to just zap the transactions
2287 2014-02-17 22:09:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or you can use pywallet to delete transactions
2288 2014-02-17 22:10:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(not an RPC, a command-line option)
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2297 2014-02-17 22:13:08 <davvblack> Is there a tool built to run t he malleability attack on testnet?
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2299 2014-02-17 22:14:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you're looking to do it just to a transaction or two, it's trivial to do manually
2300 2014-02-17 22:14:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I haven't seen any code to automate it, but there may be some out there
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2386 2014-02-17 23:26:48 <rusty78> Hey am looking to hire a JSON-RPC proficient programmer for a unique back-end implementation of a web wallet. If you're interested, PM me for more details.
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