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 129 2014-02-18 02:38:36 <davvblack> Is there a list of low-priority things missing from the reference implementation that might be nice to have, but the core developers haven't had time to work on?
 130 2014-02-18 02:38:41  has joined
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 132 2014-02-18 02:39:31 <CodeShark> what's the status on nonmalleable txid?
 133 2014-02-18 02:42:38 <jcorgan> davvblack: i'm not sure there is, but a good place to start is: what annoys *you* about bitcoind/qt?
 134 2014-02-18 02:42:58 Lycerion has left ("Leaving")
 135 2014-02-18 02:43:06 <jcorgan> chances are if it annoys you, it annoys others, so that is fertile ground for low hanging fruit
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 137 2014-02-18 02:43:57 <CodeShark> have we decided on a standard for nonmalleable tx hash?
 138 2014-02-18 02:45:31 <CodeShark> how do we deal with SIGHASH type?
 139 2014-02-18 02:46:26 <jcorgan> sipa has published a bip proposal for a long term evolution of the client to improve things
 140 2014-02-18 02:47:09 <Phoebus> ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool ? this is flooding, any ideas?
 141 2014-02-18 02:47:30 <jcorgan> https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691
 142 2014-02-18 02:47:51 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 143 2014-02-18 02:48:25 <CodeShark> thanks
 144 2014-02-18 02:49:20 <CodeShark> oh, that's to make transactions themselves immalleable - that's all good stuff, too - I was wondering about the possibility of an immalleable tx hash for the short term
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 150 2014-02-18 02:50:37 <jcorgan> i'm not sure what you are talking about to be honest
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 153 2014-02-18 02:52:34 <CodeShark> stripping transactions of scriptsigs
 154 2014-02-18 02:52:36 <CodeShark> essentially
 155 2014-02-18 02:52:38 <CodeShark> before hashing
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 157 2014-02-18 02:53:14 <davvblack> yeah, that makes so much more sense to me.
 158 2014-02-18 02:53:14 <CodeShark> having two hashes per transaction - one used in the merkle trees for blocks, the other used as a fingerprint that is immalleable
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 161 2014-02-18 02:55:47 <CodeShark> basically, I'm working on an enterprise wallet and want to make sure that we have the maximal amount of interoperability
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 167 2014-02-18 03:01:19 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: the only non-malleable tx hash is a sPK hash
 168 2014-02-18 03:01:38 <Luke-Jr> that is, a hash of the specific scriptPubKey for the output you want to track
 169 2014-02-18 03:02:26 <CodeShark> right, it is unfortunate that we don't reference outpoints by such a hash
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 173 2014-02-18 03:05:21 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: we could
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 176 2014-02-18 03:05:37 <rusty78> Hey am looking to hire a JSON-RPC proficient programmer for a unique back-end implementation of a web wallet. If you're interested, PM me for more details.
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 180 2014-02-18 03:06:08 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: you mean at the protocol level?
 181 2014-02-18 03:06:25 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: no, that'd be a hardfork :<
 182 2014-02-18 03:08:10 <CodeShark> outputs by themselves are not necessarily unique, though
 183 2014-02-18 03:08:28 <gjs278> can't you just keep a transaction and reduce it from the wallet balance until the confirmations are done
 184 2014-02-18 03:08:37 <gjs278> like store it in a wallet that may or may not be good to go
 185 2014-02-18 03:08:40 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: unfortunately
 186 2014-02-18 03:09:05 <CodeShark> we'd have to introduce either a nonce to the output or require all outputs to be unique
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 189 2014-02-18 03:11:22 <davvblack> Eh, that sounds awkward.
 190 2014-02-18 03:13:04 <andytoshi> davvblack: nah, every tx i receive has a unique output
 191 2014-02-18 03:13:45 Luke-Jr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 194 2014-02-18 03:14:41 <CodeShark> the requirement of unique outputs does place greater state tracking requirements on validation nodes
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 196 2014-02-18 03:15:02 <CodeShark> and might also break things like donation addresses
 197 2014-02-18 03:15:42 <maaku> CodeShark: in theory solveable (steath addresses)
 198 2014-02-18 03:15:53 <maaku> but it's a long way between here and there (and not particularly worth it imho)
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 200 2014-02-18 03:16:15 <CodeShark> right, the second issue is theoretically solvable…but in any case, we're talking about additional validation overhead
 201 2014-02-18 03:16:30 <andytoshi> i should come up with a patch to make reused addresses nonstandard, i bet luke would use it
 202 2014-02-18 03:17:44 HansiHE has joined
 203 2014-02-18 03:19:49 <maaku> well if there's a address index that wouldn't be a bad thing
 204 2014-02-18 03:20:11 <maaku> although it would break things like the sha256 bounties
 205 2014-02-18 03:20:45 <CodeShark> we should stop thinking of transactions as state and instead think of them as state transitions - the utxo set, along with the block header tree, is the state
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 207 2014-02-18 03:22:13 <maaku> *stealth addresses are worth it, making key reuse non-standard or invalid, not so much
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 217 2014-02-18 03:31:48 <ajoul> paying someone 0.3BTC to set up a pool.
 218 2014-02-18 03:32:09 <Luke-Jr> ajoul: stop spamming
 219 2014-02-18 03:32:34 <ajoul> <Luke-Jr> I am not spamming I am spreading the word :)
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 233 2014-02-18 03:44:17 <maaku> ajoul: this is the wrong channel for that
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 298 2014-02-18 04:55:14 <Keverw> Hey. I compiled my own Bitcoin QT on Snow Leopard 32bit and trying to run the binary on my OS X 10.9 Machine. It's only a 8mb image and says to make sure it works with this version of OS X.... I noticed Bitcoin and other coins are all around 30MB. Not sure why it's not running on my newer system when I compiled it on a older one. Any ideas?
 299 2014-02-18 04:55:37 <Keverw> and it works on my snow leopard install. Just not anything else :/
 300 2014-02-18 04:56:01 <Diablo-D3> you said it was a 32bit build of the exe, right?
 301 2014-02-18 04:56:10 <Keverw> .app
 302 2014-02-18 04:56:14 <Diablo-D3> er right
 303 2014-02-18 04:56:18 <Keverw> built on a 32bit machine yes
 304 2014-02-18 04:56:27 <Keverw> Want it to run on 32 and 64 bit machines
 305 2014-02-18 04:56:27 <Diablo-D3> 10.9 and I believe 10.8 as well require 64bit binaries.
 306 2014-02-18 04:56:45 <Diablo-D3> osx no longer supports 32 bit on x86 (nor does it support any other arch anymore)
 307 2014-02-18 04:56:54 <Keverw> oh. In MacPorts, should I set +universal in Macports then?
 308 2014-02-18 04:57:03 <Diablo-D3> dunno, I dont use macports
 309 2014-02-18 04:57:07 <Diablo-D3> Im a homebrew kind of guy
 310 2014-02-18 04:57:27 <Diablo-D3> 10.7 iirc wes the last to support 32 bit x86, and 10.5 was the last to support ppc at all
 311 2014-02-18 04:58:08 <Keverw> hmm. I was reading Bitcoin official is compiled on 32bit snow leopard
 312 2014-02-18 04:58:40 <denisx> Diablo-D3: you are not right
 313 2014-02-18 04:58:46 <denisx> Diablo-D3: bitcoin itself is still 32bit
 314 2014-02-18 04:58:53 <Keverw> Maybe I should try to reinstall my ports and set "+universal" in /opt/local/etc/macports/variants.conf but idk.... Wasted a bunch of time so far so hmm
 315 2014-02-18 04:58:58 <denisx> and runs on my osx 10.9
 316 2014-02-18 04:59:24 <Diablo-D3> denisx: official build has both iirc
 317 2014-02-18 04:59:47 <denisx> I have the official build and it runs 32bit
 318 2014-02-18 04:59:58 <denisx> it would run 64bit if it could
 319 2014-02-18 05:00:04 <Keverw> Wonder why my build won't run on anything other than the system I built it on.
 320 2014-02-18 05:00:14 <Keverw> Haven't try it on any other 32bit Snow Leopard Machines.
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 330 2014-02-18 05:09:46 <Keverw> I git it, then cd into it and run qmake bitcoin-qt.pro "USE_UPNP=-" QMAKE_CC=gcc QMAKE_CXX=g++ RELEASE=1 and then make -f Makefile
 331 2014-02-18 05:10:24 <Keverw> and then it spits out the .app file and it runs on the machine I just built it on, moving it to newer OS X, no luck :/
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 390 2014-02-18 06:09:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|davvblack: there's the issue list on github
 391 2014-02-18 06:10:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Some of those are low-priority nice-to-haves
 392 2014-02-18 06:10:27 <Luke-Jr> davvblack: why focus on low priority things anyway? there's a ton of high priority things we don't have time for.. :|
 393 2014-02-18 06:10:52 <Luke-Jr> davvblack: unit tests are severely lacking, and a great way to learn and get into things (but a bit cumbersome)
 394 2014-02-18 06:12:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And here's another one, that may not be there: RPCs that create a transaction like sendmany and sendtoaddress (select inputs, add change and fee) but give you the raw transaction instead of broadcasting it
 395 2014-02-18 06:13:03 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: s/inputs/outputs/
 396 2014-02-18 06:13:20 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: but isn't that createrawtransaction? :P
 397 2014-02-18 06:13:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right -- select outputs for inputs
 398 2014-02-18 06:13:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: no
 399 2014-02-18 06:13:36 * Luke-Jr notes to self that his new office is like an oven when all doors are shut ._.
 400 2014-02-18 06:14:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|createrawtransaction requires you to manually designate inputs and outputs, including change
 401 2014-02-18 06:15:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|This rpc would automatically handle coin selection, change, and fee
 402 2014-02-18 06:15:22 <Luke-Jr> i c
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 404 2014-02-18 06:15:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It was discussed inhere yesterday, I think
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 407 2014-02-18 06:16:46 <gmaxwell> you just want "hextoaddress"
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 409 2014-02-18 06:16:49 <gmaxwell> enh?
 410 2014-02-18 06:17:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: huh?
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 412 2014-02-18 06:17:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;help ud
 413 2014-02-18 06:17:37 <gribble> (ud <an alias, 0 arguments>) -- Alias for "lucky --snippet site:urbandictionary.com $*".
 414 2014-02-18 06:17:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;ud enh
 415 2014-02-18 06:17:46 <gribble> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=enh | enh. a word that can be used for anything. you can have a whole conversation with just this word. "Hi." "Enh?" "Nice day isnt it?" "Enh"(in a "meh" voice) ETC.
 416 2014-02-18 06:18:03 <Luke-Jr> …
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 418 2014-02-18 06:18:57 <Arnavion> Wow that really is a thing
 419 2014-02-18 06:19:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: I don't know what hextoaddress is, but it doesn't sound like what I'm talking about
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 422 2014-02-18 06:19:39 <gmaxwell> hex instead of send. :)
 423 2014-02-18 06:20:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I think I said this
 424 2014-02-18 06:20:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The RPCs would be like sendmany and sendtoaddress
 425 2014-02-18 06:20:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But they would return a raw transaction, rather than actually sending
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 430 2014-02-18 06:25:38 <gmaxwell> thats what I meant by hextoaddress because, you know, hex instead of send.
 431 2014-02-18 06:25:43 <gmaxwell> nevermind.
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 433 2014-02-18 06:25:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell, Luke-Jr: see 18:45 UTC
 434 2014-02-18 06:26:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: Oh, I see
 435 2014-02-18 06:26:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Actually, I think there was more about it earlier than that
 436 2014-02-18 06:26:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That was just a brief mention
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 450 2014-02-18 06:34:02 <Rebroad> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3696 - I've finished testing this now and am happy with it.
 451 2014-02-18 06:34:05 <davvblack> luke-jr thanks, I'll check it out.  Unit tests sounds like a great place to start
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 453 2014-02-18 06:34:29 <davvblack> I just didn't want to start writing something useful and have it finished out from under me while I'm still getting acquainted with the codebase
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 459 2014-02-18 06:40:32 <Rebroad> I'd like to add to pull 3696 so that I can update the splash screen message also with the percentage. Is it possible to include a variable in the splash screen message like this?
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 461 2014-02-18 06:42:01 <davvblack> Have you looked at qt/splashscreen.cpp?
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 463 2014-02-18 06:42:57 <davvblack> er, nm ofc
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 470 2014-02-18 06:49:22 <arowser> Why the irc log server site http://bitcoinstats.com/ changed to a graphite site now?
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 472 2014-02-18 06:55:08 <Rebroad> davvblack, I will look at it now, thanks
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 485 2014-02-18 07:21:11 <shaileshg> Hi, is there any list of standard transaction types accepted by the current build of 0.8.6 ?
 486 2014-02-18 07:22:51 <shaileshg> and how does the clients / nodes decide which transaction to relay and which to not? Do they modify the client or is such kind of logic in built to the officially release bitcoind client?
 487 2014-02-18 07:23:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: raw m-of-n where n<=3, p2sh, p2pkh, p2pk
 488 2014-02-18 07:24:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's all I can think of
 489 2014-02-18 07:24:15 <shaileshg> michagogo|cloud: okay
 490 2014-02-18 07:24:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, they modify the client
 491 2014-02-18 07:24:47 <shaileshg> so, there is nothing in official client which says no to non-standard outputs
 492 2014-02-18 07:25:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: huh?
 493 2014-02-18 07:25:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It doesn't relay them
 494 2014-02-18 07:25:15 <davvblack> there is… main.cpp CheckInputs
 495 2014-02-18 07:25:17 <davvblack> i believe
 496 2014-02-18 07:25:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or accept them into the mempool
 497 2014-02-18 07:25:27 <davvblack> in the main client
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 500 2014-02-18 07:25:45 <shaileshg> i meant to say that there is nothing in official client with doesn't relay non-standard outputs?
 501 2014-02-18 07:25:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: yes there is
 502 2014-02-18 07:26:06 <shaileshg> in main.cpp as suggested by davvblack
 503 2014-02-18 07:26:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Grep for and read IsStandard
 504 2014-02-18 07:26:07 <shaileshg> ?
 505 2014-02-18 07:26:17 <shaileshg> okay
 506 2014-02-18 07:26:18 <shaileshg> hmm
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 508 2014-02-18 07:26:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You'll see what it does, and where it's called
 509 2014-02-18 07:26:37 <shaileshg> hmm
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 545 2014-02-18 08:02:44 <antephialtic> would it be feasible for a BIP70 server to automatically coinjoin outgoing transactions before sending them out to the network?
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 552 2014-02-18 08:08:26 <sipa> CodeShark: an hash that doesn't permit malleability is likely impossible, if you want to account for all signature hash types
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 559 2014-02-18 08:11:50 <sipa> CodeShark: imho such a normalized txid is useful for one purpose only: simplify identification and searching for transactions by humans
 560 2014-02-18 08:12:42 <sipa> CodeShark: software will have to deal with malleability anyway (or at least with its generalization which isn't that much harder: double spending)
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 576 2014-02-18 08:23:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|antephialtic: As in, the merchant?
 577 2014-02-18 08:23:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The thing is that that would require the merchant to pass another transaction back to the user to sign, if I understand correctly
 578 2014-02-18 08:24:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It would be a second round trip, if I understand correctly
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 588 2014-02-18 08:43:29 <antephialtic> michagogo|cloud: yeah, the merchant. what if the outputs for each transaction are signed with SIGHASH_SINGLE
 589 2014-02-18 08:43:54 <antephialtic> could the merchant then reassemble a bunch of smaller transactions into a larger one without another round trip
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 600 2014-02-18 08:53:36 <antephialtic> actually, let me rephrase that. Given n  valid signed transactions (w/o the signing keys), is it possible to create m transactions such that the same inputs are consumed and the same outputs created, but the inputs/outputs are arbitrarily permuted
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 609 2014-02-18 09:03:48 <sipa> antephialtic: no
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 612 2014-02-18 09:04:41 <sipa> oh, with alternative sighash types that is likely possible
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 616 2014-02-18 09:06:27 <maaku> antephialtic: it is very limited what you can do with that
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 620 2014-02-18 09:07:50 <antephialtic> sipa: yeah, I am thinking of using SIGHASH_SINGLE|SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY
 621 2014-02-18 09:07:57 <antephialtic> maaku: how so
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 623 2014-02-18 09:08:08 <maaku> antephialtic: that links one input to one output
 624 2014-02-18 09:08:33 <maaku> and yes you can then reorder those anyway you want (so long as the single inputs still match up with the single outputs)
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 626 2014-02-18 09:09:04 <maaku> but that excludes a lot of applications for which people often bring up that question (e.g. colored coin exchange)
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 628 2014-02-18 09:09:43 <antephialtic> yeah, I was more thinking along the lines of applications to the merchant server for BIP70
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 632 2014-02-18 09:10:01 <maaku> CodeShark sipa: also, ntxid may bring back edge cases we thought we got rid of, like non-unique ntxids for coinbase transactions
 633 2014-02-18 09:10:24 <maaku> antephialtic: there a very, very few cases were you only care about one single output
 634 2014-02-18 09:10:47 <maaku> usually you need change outputs as well, or in general n inputs and m outputs
 635 2014-02-18 09:11:24 <maaku> there is (sadly) no combination of sighash modes which will let you do that and still be compoasable
 636 2014-02-18 09:11:39 <antephialtic> good point. that is possible with SIGHASH_NONE, but that requires trust
 637 2014-02-18 09:12:01 <maaku> which is another way of saying its not possible :)
 638 2014-02-18 09:12:10 <maaku> if trust is acceptable, use paypal
 639 2014-02-18 09:13:28 <antephialtic> indeed. just a random idea I had after reading about bip70. Seems like you need 2 round trips (with unpredictable latency between them) to do any kind of mixing as part of the payment
 640 2014-02-18 09:14:28 <antephialtic> back to the drawing board
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 644 2014-02-18 09:16:42 <sipa> maaku: bip34 guarantees that coinbase outputs will have unique ntxids
 645 2014-02-18 09:17:18 <sipa> maaku: but in general, i'm in favor of not advertizing ntxid as a solution for everything, and it very likely has edge cases we did not consider
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 648 2014-02-18 09:19:44 <maaku> sipa: why? the input script is cleared in ntxid construction
 649 2014-02-18 09:20:06 <maaku> s/script/coinbase string
 650 2014-02-18 09:21:18 oleganza has joined
 651 2014-02-18 09:22:31 <maaku> we could probably get around that by specifying different treatment for coinbase transactions
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 653 2014-02-18 09:23:06 <maaku> (ntxid==txid for coinbase transactions)
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 656 2014-02-18 09:24:24 <lnovy_> not really imho
 657 2014-02-18 09:24:59 <lnovy_> ou, sorry, that should be the treatment...
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 660 2014-02-18 09:26:30 <sipa> maaku: i'm confused; you're right
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 665 2014-02-18 09:32:01 <lnovy_> can you confirm me please, that coinbase transactions eg. if solomining to the same address will have the same nxtid everytime?
 666 2014-02-18 09:32:18 <lnovy_> I cannot get grasp of if from the source code...
 667 2014-02-18 09:32:31 <sipa> i believe so, yes
 668 2014-02-18 09:33:20 <lnovy_> I need to relay this to MagicalTux, because I'm pretty sure, he is also using ntxids for incomming transaction also... thx
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 671 2014-02-18 09:36:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, maybe ntxids should be an off-by-default compile-time option?
 672 2014-02-18 09:37:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|since they're not useful for much besides help-desk type thingd
 673 2014-02-18 09:37:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(wait, did any ntxid stuff get into our code?)
 674 2014-02-18 09:37:38 <sipa> maaku: using txid==ntxid for coinbase transactions sounds fine
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 677 2014-02-18 09:38:31 <lnovy_> ok, mtgox is fine, using ntxid only for outbound
 678 2014-02-18 09:38:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No, we don't have any ntxid code, it would appear from a quick skim of the commits page
 679 2014-02-18 09:39:08 <the_file> im looking to buy a miner, got $1500 anyone know ideal miner?
 680 2014-02-18 09:40:15 <sipa> lnovy_: that's a good argument, and maybe a reason not to change things
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 682 2014-02-18 09:40:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(disregard my half-thought earlier)
 683 2014-02-18 09:40:34 <sipa> maaku: an ntxid should only ever be used when chosen by the sender
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 692 2014-02-18 09:45:03 <lnovy_> sipa: there is very slight possibility to get duplicate ntxid of outgoing transactions when "reindexing" all history of some business transaction database which was here before bip34 came into effect. An exception for coinbase should do no harm and would solve this situation.
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 694 2014-02-18 09:45:53 <lnovy_> or we should at least document it :)
 695 2014-02-18 09:46:27 <sipa> lnovy_: still, an ntxid should only be used when the sender knows it's safe to do so
 696 2014-02-18 09:46:36 <sipa> lnovy_: in case of a coinbase, there is no sender
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 698 2014-02-18 09:47:04 <lnovy_> sipa: this is a second transaction, not coinbase transaction, that I'm speaking about...
 699 2014-02-18 09:47:27 <sipa> there are no non-coinbase duplicate txids
 700 2014-02-18 09:47:39 <sipa> there were two instances of duplicate coinbase txids
 701 2014-02-18 09:47:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If I understand correctly, there could have been prior to height-in-coinbase
 702 2014-02-18 09:47:54 <sipa> but those are very long ago
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 704 2014-02-18 09:48:03 <sipa> there could have been indeed, but there aren't
 705 2014-02-18 09:48:06 <lnovy_> sipa: if somebody is solomining to mtgox deposit adress, and somebody would make a withdrawal to different but same address twice, duplicate ntxid is born
 706 2014-02-18 09:48:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But nobody actually did that
 707 2014-02-18 09:48:42 <sipa> lnovy_: yes, and that's exactly a case where an ntxid should not be used
 708 2014-02-18 09:48:56 <sipa> lnovy_: just like when you're using alternative sighash types
 709 2014-02-18 09:49:07 <maaku> I only brought it up because services like bc.i are talking about providing ntxid indices
 710 2014-02-18 09:49:27 <lnovy_> sipa: if there are only two cases of duplicate txid, I will just check, do you know how to find them fast?
 711 2014-02-18 09:49:41 <sturles> maaku: They are already providing.  Not just talking about.
 712 2014-02-18 09:49:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The solution is for mtgox to spend all coinbases they get to a new address
 713 2014-02-18 09:50:08 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: not at all
 714 2014-02-18 09:50:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh?
 715 2014-02-18 09:50:27 <maaku> sturles: hard to provide a standard interface when there is no standard
 716 2014-02-18 09:50:30 <lnovy_> there is no potential problem now, only with old data... potentialy
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 718 2014-02-18 09:50:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, or just make sure not to spend 2 coinbases in withdrawals to the same destination
 719 2014-02-18 09:50:38 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: an ntxid is only useful for cases where a _sender_ wants to identify their transactions, knowing that they are ntxid-compliant
 720 2014-02-18 09:50:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: right
 721 2014-02-18 09:50:51 <sipa> a coinbase transaction has no sender, so it simply never applies
 722 2014-02-18 09:50:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I mean, a way for them to make sure they're ntxid compliant
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 724 2014-02-18 09:51:09 <maaku> lnovy_: no, with the current pull request new coinbase transactions could have the same ntxid (but different txid)
 725 2014-02-18 09:51:13 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: irrelevant
 726 2014-02-18 09:51:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: referring to 11:47:49 <lnovy_> sipa: if somebody is solomining to mtgox deposit adress, and somebody would make a withdrawal to different but same address twice, duplicate ntxid is born
 727 2014-02-18 09:51:29 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: different coinbases have different txids
 728 2014-02-18 09:51:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But wha-oh
 729 2014-02-18 09:51:43 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: so the spending transactions have different ntxids
 730 2014-02-18 09:51:43 <maaku> again, no reasyon you would actually want an ntxid for a coinbase ... but it's an edge case to think about
 731 2014-02-18 09:52:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: right, my bad... I was confusing ntxids with...
 732 2014-02-18 09:52:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|something else...
 733 2014-02-18 09:52:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|idk what
 734 2014-02-18 09:52:11 <sipa> maaku: i sort of like having a clear and obvious example of why nxtids cannot be used for everything
 735 2014-02-18 09:52:14 <lnovy_> but the txid is different, so transaction to be made from this coin from coinbase will have always different ntxid
 736 2014-02-18 09:52:17 <sipa> maaku: but that should be clearly documented
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 738 2014-02-18 09:52:32 <maaku> lnovy_: correct
 739 2014-02-18 09:52:48 <lnovy_> so there is no problem now...
 740 2014-02-18 09:52:54 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tries to figure out what made him think that
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 744 2014-02-18 09:54:36 <lnovy_> is this the only case or there is another one? https://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000743f190a18c5577a3c2d2a1f610ae9601ac046a38084ccb7cd721
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 746 2014-02-18 09:54:56 <sipa> there should be two cases, both between height 90k and 100k
 747 2014-02-18 09:54:57 <sipa> iirc
 748 2014-02-18 09:55:21 <lnovy_> so four coinbases transactions total?
 749 2014-02-18 09:55:55 <maaku> yeah. i can't think of a single case requiring a ntxid for a coinbase, that isn't stretching the concept beyond its useful limit
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 751 2014-02-18 09:56:21 <sipa> lnovy_: yes
 752 2014-02-18 09:56:26 <lnovy_> thx
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 755 2014-02-18 09:56:55 <maaku> except the ntxid-index service provider, but they can just as easily adopt the convention that most-recent transaction with shared ntxid is returned
 756 2014-02-18 09:57:08 <maaku> or exclude coinbases from the index
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 758 2014-02-18 09:58:35 <uiop> is the "n" in ntxid standing for "new" ?
 759 2014-02-18 09:59:04 <sipa> normalized
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 761 2014-02-18 09:59:09 <uiop> ah
 762 2014-02-18 09:59:28 <wumpus> no no no not "new", that implies it will replace anything
 763 2014-02-18 09:59:34 <lnovy_> that one I linked is unspent, still possible to create a mess with it...
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 765 2014-02-18 10:00:13 <sipa> lnovy_: no, because only the last one can be spent
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 767 2014-02-18 10:00:20 <uiop> wumpus: heh
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 770 2014-02-18 10:01:29 <lnovy_> sipa: really? can you point me? isn't it possible that if one is spent, after rescan bitcoind would allow the second one to be spend?
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 772 2014-02-18 10:02:02 <sipa> lnovy_: no, BIP30
 773 2014-02-18 10:02:33 <sipa> lnovy_: the second transaction with the same txid overwrites the first
 774 2014-02-18 10:02:34 <lnovy_> doesn't
 775 2014-02-18 10:02:44 <lnovy_> brb
 776 2014-02-18 10:03:14 <sipa> actually, not really BIP30... this was the behaviour before bip30 too
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 778 2014-02-18 10:03:23 <sipa> iirc bip30 mentions it, though
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 780 2014-02-18 10:04:03 <sipa> but i'm not sure
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 784 2014-02-18 10:10:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's annoying that since we moved the BIPs to github, finding them with Google is an extra click
 785 2014-02-18 10:10:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(since the search still turns up the wiki page)
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 788 2014-02-18 10:11:16 <Diablo-D3> http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/176676-graphene-nanoribbons-could-be-the-savior-of-moores-law
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 790 2014-02-18 10:12:32 <easye> I'm a bit confused about the presence/absence of the autogen.sh in the bitcoin git repository.  Why is it present in the master branch, but not for branches like 0.8.6?
 791 2014-02-18 10:13:00 derbumi has joined
 792 2014-02-18 10:13:03 <ZjP> already been run by any chance?
 793 2014-02-18 10:13:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Because 0.8.6 and earlier didn't use autotools
 794 2014-02-18 10:13:48 <easye> michagogo|cloud: Ok.  That explains things.
 795 2014-02-18 10:13:51 <easye> Thanks.
 796 2014-02-18 10:13:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The move from static makefiles in the source tree to autotools happened in git after 0.8.2
 797 2014-02-18 10:14:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And 0.8.[>=3] was branched off from 0.8.2
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 799 2014-02-18 10:15:34 <easye> michagogo|cloud: how are the source distributions packaged?
 800 2014-02-18 10:15:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|see doc/release-process.md
 801 2014-02-18 10:16:00 <easye> michagogo|cloud: Checking... thanks.
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 813 2014-02-18 10:23:34 <lnovy_> X
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 815 2014-02-18 10:25:53 <easye> michagogo|cloud: Ah.  so bitcoin-0.8.6-linux.tar.gz contains Linux binaries *and* the source.
 816 2014-02-18 10:26:24 <sipa> up to 0.8.x there were no actual source distributions
 817 2014-02-18 10:26:30 <sipa> just packaged along with the binaries
 818 2014-02-18 10:26:34 <easye> And there is no such thing as an "source only" release.
 819 2014-02-18 10:27:05 * easye is coming from the perspective of trying to figure out how to package bitcoin for MacPorts.
 820 2014-02-18 10:27:23 <easye> But starting with 0.9.x there will be source only releases?
 821 2014-02-18 10:27:35 <sipa> in the 0.9 build process there are source packages built
 822 2014-02-18 10:28:31 <easye> sipa: And I should check out the v0.9.0rc1 branch in github to see what that will look like?
 823 2014-02-18 10:28:44 * Aurigae trying to figure how to clear bash history on every logout from ssh on ubuntu 12.04
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 826 2014-02-18 10:29:33 <easye> Aurigae: echo "cat /dev/null > ~/.bash_history" > ~/.bash_logout
 827 2014-02-18 10:29:46 <roybadami> aurigae: not quite what you're asking, but if I need to avoid saving history from an interactive bash shell I do kill -9 $$
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 829 2014-02-18 10:29:49 <sipa> easye: that won't learn you much, as there is no published build of 0.9rc1
 830 2014-02-18 10:30:23 <Aurigae> y, for now i run the command on every logout, bec i enter my passphrase on every session ^^
 831 2014-02-18 10:30:41 <easye> sipa: So studying "master" is the best way to guess which way the puck is heading?
 832 2014-02-18 10:30:43 <sipa> you shouldn't type your passphrase as a bash command
 833 2014-02-18 10:30:55 <sipa> easye: yes, master is currently very close to 0.9.0rc1
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 836 2014-02-18 10:31:07 <easye> Ok.  Thanks all!
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 843 2014-02-18 10:40:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|easye: Also, you may want to read the scripts in contrib/gitian-descriptors
 844 2014-02-18 10:40:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|To give you an idea of what the actual build process used for releases is
 845 2014-02-18 10:41:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(although that's currently not used for OS X builds, I think coryfields was working on that)
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 849 2014-02-18 10:43:28 <lnovy_> sorry guys, I just got fired, I will get back here later :)
 850 2014-02-18 10:43:43 <sipa> ... fired?
 851 2014-02-18 10:43:46 <sipa> or disconnected?
 852 2014-02-18 10:43:59 <lnovy_> fired, like from work fired :)
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 870 2014-02-18 10:59:58 <t7> lnovy_: why ?
 871 2014-02-18 11:00:11 <t7> i must know...
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 874 2014-02-18 11:00:34 <lnovy_> t7: I didn't come to work last week... guess why :)
 875 2014-02-18 11:00:48 <t7> errr drugs and hookers?
 876 2014-02-18 11:00:55 <lnovy_> gox :)
 877 2014-02-18 11:02:02 <t7> what just freaking out?
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 880 2014-02-18 11:02:45 <lnovy_> later...
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 887 2014-02-18 11:08:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|o_O
 888 2014-02-18 11:08:28 <sipa> :o
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 908 2014-02-18 11:31:18 <signor777> i have a question about transaction malleability: what's the reason that the txid is not signed? why not sign the whole transaction? Is there a reason at all or is this simply a design flaw?
 909 2014-02-18 11:32:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|signor777: a cryptographic signature cannot sign itself
 910 2014-02-18 11:32:23 <sipa> signor777: becayse the txid is the hash of the whole transaction, including the signature
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 912 2014-02-18 11:32:54 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: actually, it can (but not in our setting)
 913 2014-02-18 11:33:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: orly?
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 915 2014-02-18 11:33:43 <wumpus> signor777: also, some transaction types explicitly allow malleability by using other sighash flags than SIGHASH_ALL
 916 2014-02-18 11:33:48 <lnovy_> sipa: i've read O'Connor's article on which base BIP 30 came to life and I'm still not sure, if those duplicate coinbase coins cannot be spent two times... On what do you base your statement that only the second one can be spent? thx
 917 2014-02-18 11:34:03 <sipa> lnovy_: the implementation
 918 2014-02-18 11:34:36 <highman78> what is the easiest way to learn cryptography?
 919 2014-02-18 11:35:02 <sipa> highman78: go to school? :)
 920 2014-02-18 11:35:07 <lnovy_> sipa: so it's not forbiden per se, only mainstream bitcoind will behave this way for sure?
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 923 2014-02-18 11:35:39 <sipa> lnovy_: that is the only definition of "forbidden per se"
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 928 2014-02-18 11:35:54 <sipa> lnovy_: the rules are defined by what the network does
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 930 2014-02-18 11:36:23 <sipa> lnovy_: also, this was a statememt about how things were before bip30
 931 2014-02-18 11:36:32 <sipa> now it is just illegal to overwrite a txid
 932 2014-02-18 11:36:39 <lnovy_> sipa: BIP30 does not states, that these coins both cannot be spent...
 933 2014-02-18 11:36:56 <signor777> sipa: but if the txid is the hash of the complete transaction it should be trivial to detect transaction malleability, right? Why are transactions even relayed if the txid doesn't match the transaction?
 934 2014-02-18 11:37:20 <lnovy_> it is ilegal to accept transaction with the same txid if duplicate in blockchain has unspent outputs, right?
 935 2014-02-18 11:37:39 <sipa> lnovy_: correct
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 938 2014-02-18 11:37:57 <lnovy_> but if the outputs would be spent, the only thing that prohibitits spending the second coin is implementation of bitcoind
 939 2014-02-18 11:37:58 <wumpus> signor777: because the malleability is in the signature, the part that cannot be part of the signature itself but is part of the hash
 940 2014-02-18 11:38:16 <sipa> lnovy_: the implementation of bitcoind is the rule
 941 2014-02-18 11:38:17 <wumpus> signor777: so the transaction is not invalidated, but the hash changes
 942 2014-02-18 11:38:36 <sipa> lnovy_: not that this is a good thing, but it is inevitable
 943 2014-02-18 11:39:11 <sipa> lnovy_: a consensus sysyem like bitcoin has the strange effect that compatibility is more important than correctness
 944 2014-02-18 11:39:57 <sipa> lnovy_: so bip30 prevents the same utxo from being created twice, and every utxo can only be sprnt once
 945 2014-02-18 11:40:00 <signor777> wumpus: aaaaah ok now i get it, thanks!
 946 2014-02-18 11:40:05 <lnovy_> sipa: i'm afraid, that if one day, satoshi's client had no absolute majority, hard-fork could occur because of this
 947 2014-02-18 11:40:36 <sipa> lnovy_: if alternate implementations do not match bitcoind bug-for-bug, that is by definition a hard fork
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 949 2014-02-18 11:40:45 <sipa> lnovy_: majority or not is irrelevant even
 950 2014-02-18 11:40:52 <lnovy_> sipa: dupliacte utxo would not exist in the same blockchain-time...
 951 2014-02-18 11:40:59 <sipa> ?
 952 2014-02-18 11:41:31 <lnovy_> sipa: first one create, then spend, second one created, legal by BIPs, forbiden by implementation
 953 2014-02-18 11:41:51 <sipa> why forbidden by inplementation?
 954 2014-02-18 11:42:00 <lnovy_> sipa: you have said so... no?
 955 2014-02-18 11:42:04 <sipa> no
 956 2014-02-18 11:42:12 <sipa> create, create, spend, spend
 957 2014-02-18 11:42:26 <sipa> that is not allowed by implementations
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 959 2014-02-18 11:42:46 <sipa> create, spend, create, spend is perfectly legel by bip30 and implementations
 960 2014-02-18 11:43:50 <lnovy_> sipa: how about, create, create... they both exists, bip30 come to life, spend, only second one now is unspend, spend again
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 963 2014-02-18 11:44:21 <sipa> lnovy_: bip30 doesn't change anything here
 964 2014-02-18 11:44:33 <sipa> the second one overwrites the first one's utxo
 965 2014-02-18 11:45:22 <lnovy_> in bitcoind implementation or generally?
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 967 2014-02-18 11:45:31 <sipa> lnovy_: that is the same thing
 968 2014-02-18 11:45:51 <sipa> there is no definition of the rules but how bitcoind implements it, sadly
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 970 2014-02-18 11:47:27 <lnovy_> sipa: ok, another way, what was the reason for bip34 to only forbid txid duplication with unspent outputs? why does it not states, that a block with a transaction with the txid as already included in the blockchain is invalid?
 971 2014-02-18 11:47:43 <sipa> you mean bip30
 972 2014-02-18 11:48:05 <lnovy_> sipa: yes, mea culpa
 973 2014-02-18 11:48:05 <sipa> the reason is that the alternative would require every bitcoin node to keep track of every txid ever created
 974 2014-02-18 11:49:08 <sipa> now they only need to keep track of unspent outputs by txid, which is already necessary for validation anyway
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 976 2014-02-18 11:50:04 <sipa> and bip34 solves the problem altogether without any burden: just prevent identical txids from being created in the first place
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 979 2014-02-18 11:50:59 <lnovy_> sipa: exactly, also not to cause the whole chain to be invalid up to second instance of coinbase transaction... so because these transactions were valid then, they are valid even now, they are 2 separate coins with rooted in a coinbase with same txid but in different block
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 981 2014-02-18 11:51:44 <lnovy_> and nothing prevents them both to be spent legally, if the created transaction output is spent before the second coin is used
 982 2014-02-18 11:51:56 <sipa> indeed
 983 2014-02-18 11:52:12 <sipa> it could have been made illegal, but there would be no point
 984 2014-02-18 11:52:57 <sipa> well, except prevent wallets from having to deal with identical txids
 985 2014-02-18 11:53:27 <sipa> i guess, in case of: create, spend, create, bip30, spend
 986 2014-02-18 11:53:42 <sipa> you could end up with two identical spend transactions still
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 988 2014-02-18 11:55:15 <sipa> not sure if such a case exists
 989 2014-02-18 11:55:44 <lnovy_> all four coinbase transactions are to be spend yet
 990 2014-02-18 11:56:33 <lnovy_> it would be great, if holder would destroy these coins :(
 991 2014-02-18 11:57:03 <sipa> then there is no problem at all
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 995 2014-02-18 11:58:29 <lnovy_> not now... think of the future, this is not documented anywhere and O'Conners attack using there is not possible only because of sideeffect of how bitcoind handles utxos...
 996 2014-02-18 11:58:41 <lnovy_> using these coins
 997 2014-02-18 11:59:07 <sipa> well that would be a buggy implementation
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1002 2014-02-18 12:00:26 <lnovy_> what if one day, devels will decide it's better not to track utxo from the beggining but just backtrack from the end upto some snapshot... or something like that...
1003 2014-02-18 12:00:27 <sipa> and that is not roconnor's attack, btw
1004 2014-02-18 12:01:02 <sipa> which relies on exactly the current behaviour of bitcoind
1005 2014-02-18 12:01:43 <sipa> his attack is this: create -> (create ->) -> spend
1006 2014-02-18 12:02:00 <sipa> where the part between brackets is in a side chain that gets reorganized
1007 2014-02-18 12:02:28 <sipa> a node that sees the sidechain overwrites the utxo entry, and removes it when disconnecting the chain
1008 2014-02-18 12:02:34 <sipa> causing the spend to be invalid
1009 2014-02-18 12:02:46 <sipa> while nodes that do not see the side chain consider it valid
1010 2014-02-18 12:03:27 <lnovy_> details aside, would you be agains a BIP that would formalize the current bitcoind behaviour?
1011 2014-02-18 12:03:39 <sipa> yes
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1013 2014-02-18 12:03:53 <sipa> i am in favor of a BIP to *document* it
1014 2014-02-18 12:03:59 <sipa> but it cannot be formalized
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1016 2014-02-18 12:04:31 <sipa> because if it would not describe the actual implementation, it would be the document that is wrong
1017 2014-02-18 12:05:12 <erle-> are you sure that the 5th rule of https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691 is even possible to implement?
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1019 2014-02-18 12:05:29 <lnovy_> I don't this I follow, I will prepare a proposal and let you know...
1020 2014-02-18 12:05:44 <sipa> erle-: yes, i actually did
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1022 2014-02-18 12:06:14 <wumpus> erle-: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/87fe71e1fc810ee120a10063fdd26c3245686d54
1023 2014-02-18 12:06:15 <lnovy_> essentially it will just make the second block not create a coin if the first one is still unspent
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1026 2014-02-18 12:06:28 <lnovy_> but the block will still be valid
1027 2014-02-18 12:06:33 <sipa> lnovy_: no, it overwrites it
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1029 2014-02-18 12:06:48 <lnovy_> okay, overwrite
1030 2014-02-18 12:06:50 <sipa> with a new height, and all outputs unspent
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1033 2014-02-18 12:07:53 <Mallstromm> hi guys, sorry if this has been answered many times: any ETA on a QT/bitcoind update that gets rid of the malleated transactions from our wallets?
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1035 2014-02-18 12:08:55 <lnovy_> that bip would not target anything after BIP34, because these transactions cannot be created, it only targets those four old...
1036 2014-02-18 12:09:12 <lnovy_> so no height needs to be mentioned
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1038 2014-02-18 12:09:49 <sipa> Mallstromm: 0.9 will
1039 2014-02-18 12:09:55 <lnovy_> i will put it on paper, i'm very hard to be understood sometimes :)
1040 2014-02-18 12:09:56 <wumpus> Mallstromm: dunno for sure, but it's probably time for a new 0.9.0rc soon
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1050 2014-02-18 12:16:01 <Mallstromm> sipa: thanks, any ETA on 0.9? days, weeks?
1051 2014-02-18 12:18:15 <wumpus> it's done when it's done, if you need it any sooner you can build from source
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1053 2014-02-18 12:19:15 <wumpus> or use another workaround, like the wallettools w/ -notxes
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1067 2014-02-18 12:26:43 <wumpus> it's more important to get this right than to do anything quickly
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1090 2014-02-18 12:44:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Mallstromm: if you're looking to remove transactions from your wallet, you can use pywallet
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1127 2014-02-18 13:43:06 <shaileshg> what does it mean by "transaction has been verified but not yet confirmed by a node"
1128 2014-02-18 13:43:08 <shaileshg> ?/
1129 2014-02-18 13:44:13 <shaileshg> this you get in response of mempool request
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1131 2014-02-18 13:45:57 <wumpus> where do you get that?
1132 2014-02-18 13:47:00 <shaileshg> wumpus: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#mempool
1133 2014-02-18 13:47:05 <shaileshg> 1st line
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1148 2014-02-18 14:00:12 <wumpus> shaileshg: it means that they have been verified by the node (for correctness as well as against the UTXO set) but not yet mined into a block
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1150 2014-02-18 14:00:28 <shaileshg> wumpus: oh. okay
1151 2014-02-18 14:01:03 <wumpus> feel free to improve the wording on the wiki, it's a bit unclear indeed
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1176 2014-02-18 14:22:02 <jgarzik> does Bitcoin-Qt have any way to dump a privkey to a QR code (paper wallet)?
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1179 2014-02-18 14:22:38 <jgarzik> I know bitcoind inside and out, but don't know the full Qt featureset
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1181 2014-02-18 14:22:50 <wumpus> jgarzik: no, qr code functionality is currently only used for bitcoin: URIs
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1185 2014-02-18 14:24:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, does it allow saving a bitcoin: QR code as a file?
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1188 2014-02-18 14:25:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or is it just fisplay?
1189 2014-02-18 14:25:08 <wumpus> making bitcoin-qt a suitable tool for creating paper wallets would involve much more than that, I think armory is the best choice for that right now
1190 2014-02-18 14:25:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Display*
1191 2014-02-18 14:25:26 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: yes it can save it as a file
1192 2014-02-18 14:25:33 <wumpus> as well as copy the image to the clipboard
1193 2014-02-18 14:25:46 Goonie has joined
1194 2014-02-18 14:25:54 <jgarzik> wumpus, private-key-to-printable-QR-code would be straightforward and useful
1195 2014-02-18 14:26:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Which format(s)?
1196 2014-02-18 14:26:02 <jgarzik> wumpus, anyway, thanks muchly for the answer
1197 2014-02-18 14:26:09 * jgarzik was thinking Armory, too
1198 2014-02-18 14:26:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Can you point Armory at a running Bitcoin?
1199 2014-02-18 14:27:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(As opposed to it running one itself)
1200 2014-02-18 14:28:24 <wumpus> jgarzik: in general we don't want to encourage people doing things with individual keys in Bitcoin-Qt
1201 2014-02-18 14:28:44 <wumpus> that's why there is no "Dump privkey" in the menu at all, qr code or not
1202 2014-02-18 14:29:18 <wumpus> the abstraction should be wallets, and IMO printing a wallet seed makes more sense than printing an individual privkey
1203 2014-02-18 14:29:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah, true
1204 2014-02-18 14:29:46 <wumpus> but that can only come after the wallet is deterministic
1205 2014-02-18 14:30:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If that were to be added, I'd argue it should be create, not dump
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1209 2014-02-18 14:31:22 <wumpus> also printing is not secure in many cases; IIRC armory encourages to print encrypted stuff, then haves the user write a few words down himself for decryption
1210 2014-02-18 14:31:34 GaGu has joined
1211 2014-02-18 14:31:48 <wumpus> right, 'create' would be different, then you would effectively have a standalone tool
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1216 2014-02-18 14:32:10 <wumpus> as in, create a privkey for printing/export which can be optionally imported into the current wallet
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1218 2014-02-18 14:33:17 <Michail1> Is there a way to tell bitcoind to restart/reindex from a certain block?
1219 2014-02-18 14:33:55 <wumpus> Michail1: no
1220 2014-02-18 14:34:11 oMy has joined
1221 2014-02-18 14:34:13 <Michail1> I ask, because I am trying to run a full node on a raspberry pi.  It seams each time I get to "blocks" : 274112, I run into an error:   "errors" : "Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade."
1222 2014-02-18 14:34:34 shaman_u_ has joined
1223 2014-02-18 14:34:37 <Michail1> I use a backup of the chainstate at 271000, but once I hit 274112, it blows up on me each time.
1224 2014-02-18 14:35:00 <wumpus> what version are you using?
1225 2014-02-18 14:35:08 <Michail1> 0.8.6
1226 2014-02-18 14:35:08 shaman___ has joined
1227 2014-02-18 14:35:20 <Michail1> compiled on the pi (1.1 hours)
1228 2014-02-18 14:35:21 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1229 2014-02-18 14:35:36 <Michail1>     "version" : 80600,
1230 2014-02-18 14:35:36 <Michail1>     "protocolversion" : 70001,
1231 2014-02-18 14:35:36 <Michail1>     "walletversion" : 60000,
1232 2014-02-18 14:35:42 <wumpus> you're importing from a bootstrap file?
1233 2014-02-18 14:35:46 <Michail1> yes.
1234 2014-02-18 14:36:01 <wumpus> sounds like the file may be corrupted if it fails every time at the same place
1235 2014-02-18 14:36:06 derbumi has joined
1236 2014-02-18 14:36:24 <jgarzik> wumpus, in general, I agree
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1238 2014-02-18 14:36:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Michail1: try hashing the file
1239 2014-02-18 14:36:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|16:31:52 <wumpus> as in, create a privkey for printing/export which can be optionally imported into the current wallet
1240 2014-02-18 14:36:57 melvster has joined
1241 2014-02-18 14:37:03 <Michail1> thanks.  will do.
1242 2014-02-18 14:37:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Meh, I think the last past should be omitted
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1246 2014-02-18 14:38:16 <Subo1977_> Michail1:  take the bootstrap.dat from sourceforge. its up to Block 279000
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1249 2014-02-18 14:38:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It shouldn't be easy IMO to import a key
1250 2014-02-18 14:38:37 Doug___ has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1251 2014-02-18 14:38:40 <Michail1> 14gb.  I did.
1252 2014-02-18 14:38:47 gpmnlxdw has joined
1253 2014-02-18 14:38:57 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: well but in this case it'd at least be a self-generated key
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1255 2014-02-18 14:39:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Sweeping is a different matter -- it'd be great to have that feature
1256 2014-02-18 14:39:21 <gpmnlxdw> how can I get the raw hash code of a transaction if I know the txid or tx hash code?
1257 2014-02-18 14:39:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Hmmv
1258 2014-02-18 14:39:35 <wumpus> but agreed, importing a key that you send to someone else is a bad idea
1259 2014-02-18 14:39:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|s/v/?/
1260 2014-02-18 14:39:39 benrcole1 has joined
1261 2014-02-18 14:39:41 <gpmnlxdw> and that's not a tx of my wallet
1262 2014-02-18 14:39:59 bebopzzz has joined
1263 2014-02-18 14:39:59 <wumpus> gpmnlxdw: getrawtransaction <txid>
1264 2014-02-18 14:40:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, I wasn't thinking of it in terms of "is that key generated well"
1265 2014-02-18 14:40:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gpmnlxdw: you'll need to run Bitcoin with txindex=1
1266 2014-02-18 14:40:27 <gpmnlxdw> wumpus: thank you, but I want get the transaction of others, not from/to me
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1268 2014-02-18 14:40:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Then you can grt any tx
1269 2014-02-18 14:41:01 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: I was thinking about the correct battery horse key that many people tried to import, wrecking their wallet
1270 2014-02-18 14:41:10 <gpmnlxdw> hi micha,  like this ? "bitcoin-qt txindex=1"
1271 2014-02-18 14:41:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: ah
1272 2014-02-18 14:41:17 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1273 2014-02-18 14:41:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gpmnlxdw: put txindex=1 in bitcoin.conf
1274 2014-02-18 14:41:40 <gpmnlxdw> ok
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1276 2014-02-18 14:41:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Then, `bitcoin-qt -reindex`
1277 2014-02-18 14:41:51 <gpmnlxdw> any instruction about this configure？
1278 2014-02-18 14:41:56 <gpmnlxdw> oooo
1279 2014-02-18 14:42:25 <gpmnlxdw> Thank you, any document about this?
1280 2014-02-18 14:42:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gpmnlxdw: what os are Yukon?
1281 2014-02-18 14:42:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You on*
1282 2014-02-18 14:44:10 JLR14_ has left ("See you guys")
1283 2014-02-18 14:44:33 <gpmnlxdw> Linux
1284 2014-02-18 14:44:39 Kaisyu has joined
1285 2014-02-18 14:44:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|OS X? Windows? Unix-like?
1286 2014-02-18 14:44:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gpmnlxdw: you might want ,,(bc,wiki running bitcoin)
1287 2014-02-18 14:44:53 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Running_Bitcoin | Nov 22, 2013 ... You can run one copy of either Bitcoin or bitcoind on your system at a time (if you accidently try to launch another, the copy will let you know that ...
1288 2014-02-18 14:44:58 <gpmnlxdw> Suse linux
1289 2014-02-18 14:45:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The file is ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
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1291 2014-02-18 14:45:50 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, will you be going to the conference on the 27th?
1292 2014-02-18 14:45:54 <gpmnlxdw> yes， I know :)
1293 2014-02-18 14:45:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: conference?
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1296 2014-02-18 14:46:41 <gpmnlxdw> well , I'd better to look for the instruction from google
1297 2014-02-18 14:47:05 <shesek> the Israeli Bitcoin Association and Thepeople (pc.co.il) are organizing a Bitcoin conference
1298 2014-02-18 14:47:16 <arubi> go one..
1299 2014-02-18 14:47:19 <arubi> on*
1300 2014-02-18 14:47:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gpmnlxdw: see the link I just posted via gribble
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1302 2014-02-18 14:47:34 <gpmnlxdw> hi michia, One more question, Can I get all others' tx information in this way?
1303 2014-02-18 14:47:54 <gpmnlxdw> ok
1304 2014-02-18 14:47:59 <wumpus> gpmnlxdw: yes
1305 2014-02-18 14:48:02 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1306 2014-02-18 14:48:11 <gpmnlxdw> so faint .....
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1309 2014-02-18 14:48:32 <gpmnlxdw> I'm using blockchain.info to search such things ....
1310 2014-02-18 14:48:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: info link?
1311 2014-02-18 14:48:59 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, http://www.meetup.com/bitcoin-il/events/164898892/
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1315 2014-02-18 14:49:25 <shesek> I think... that apparently I'm going to give a talk there
1316 2014-02-18 14:49:42 <shesek> just found out by seeing my name listed at http://bitcoin14.events.co.il/ o_O
1317 2014-02-18 14:50:08 <arubi> 200 ils.. what's wrong with people..
1318 2014-02-18 14:50:33 <shesek> I asked Meni about that possibility some time ago, but he didn't give me a definitive answer... I just now found out that I'm listed there
1319 2014-02-18 14:50:55 <gpmnlxdw> Hi micha, I just join this channel, so please post the link to me again, thanks :)
1320 2014-02-18 14:51:21 <shesek> that's really quite strange :O I haven't prepared anything and its in like a week
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1322 2014-02-18 14:51:46 <shesek> I hope its just a temporary placeholder or something
1323 2014-02-18 14:53:29 <gpmnlxdw> oh I got it,
1324 2014-02-18 14:53:34 <gpmnlxdw> thank you Micha!
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1326 2014-02-18 14:53:49 <shesek> arubi, yeah, its quite expensive :-\ but they organized a lot of free conferences/events in the past, and they're saying this one is going to be quite serious
1327 2014-02-18 14:53:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: heh
1328 2014-02-18 14:54:03 Raccoon has joined
1329 2014-02-18 14:54:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I mean, the topic makes sense for you :P
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1332 2014-02-18 14:54:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It'd be cool to go, but I don't think I can
1333 2014-02-18 14:55:09 <arubi> shesek, I know I know, but still.. the price is pretty up there..
1334 2014-02-18 14:55:41 <shesek> arubi, are you from Israel too?
1335 2014-02-18 14:55:41 <gpmnlxdw> So, anything that I got from blockchain.info , could be figure out once after "bitcoin-qt -reindx"？
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1337 2014-02-18 14:55:51 <arubi> yea
1338 2014-02-18 14:55:54 <gpmnlxdw> @_@
1339 2014-02-18 14:55:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gpmnlxdw: no
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1341 2014-02-18 14:56:16 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, ah, that's too bad... I wanted to say hi
1342 2014-02-18 14:56:17 <gpmnlxdw> Only transactions?
1343 2014-02-18 14:56:32 <shesek> gpmnlxdw, with txindex you can get transactions and blocks
1344 2014-02-18 14:56:46 <shesek> there's also an unmerged pull request for an address index
1345 2014-02-18 14:56:52 <shesek> by sipa, #2802 iirc
1346 2014-02-18 14:57:01 <arubi> shesek, i imagined you saw my nick on #bitcoin-il
1347 2014-02-18 14:57:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: I could probably take the day off school, but 200₪ is not inexpensive
1348 2014-02-18 14:57:09 <wumpus> getting blocks AFAIK is also possible without txindex
1349 2014-02-18 14:57:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also it's in TA
1350 2014-02-18 14:57:24 <gpmnlxdw> Ok, Thank you all so much, I'll try it
1351 2014-02-18 14:57:28 <wumpus> txindex is just that, for transactions
1352 2014-02-18 14:57:29 <shesek> wumpus, yeah, it is
1353 2014-02-18 14:57:43 <shesek> I meant, with txindex he can get transactions, and he can also generally get blocks
1354 2014-02-18 14:57:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Which I'm completely unfamiliar with
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1356 2014-02-18 14:58:27 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, I can try asking if I can give people free passes... once I figure out if I'm really giving a speak there, heh
1357 2014-02-18 14:58:45 <shesek> where are you from?
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1360 2014-02-18 14:59:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And it starts at 8, and i don't think I want to wake up at 5 am
1361 2014-02-18 15:00:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: PM'd
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1374 2014-02-18 15:13:04 <gpmnlxdw> I suppose bitcoin-qt should support all possible query
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1376 2014-02-18 15:14:41 <wumpus> all possible? doubtful
1377 2014-02-18 15:15:14 <gpmnlxdw> at least all blockchain.info can do
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1379 2014-02-18 15:16:15 <gpmnlxdw> that will save valuable time for applications
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1383 2014-02-18 15:19:02 <wumpus> that's not going to happen, though, for most people those extra indices will just waste disk space, and it complicates the code resulting in more maintenance effort and bugs
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1385 2014-02-18 15:19:28 <wumpus> bitcoind/-qt cannot be everything for everyone, if you need a certain tool use the right tool for the job
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1387 2014-02-18 15:20:31 <gavinandresen> yes, use the right tool for the job
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1390 2014-02-18 15:20:58 <gavinandresen> core code already does too many things, I'd like to make it smaller / do less.
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1399 2014-02-18 15:29:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gpmnlxdw: if you have a few hundred GB, try abe
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1423 2014-02-18 15:42:06 <gpmnlxdw> I have tried abe , not so easy to use, from my first glance  :)
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1425 2014-02-18 15:42:36 <gpmnlxdw> how many extra space needed if bitcoin-qt rebuild all index?
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1432 2014-02-18 15:48:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gpmnlxdw: txindex adds a gig or two, iirc
1433 2014-02-18 15:48:42 <arubi> gpmnlxdw, when I ran abe last time, the db was over 50 or even 60gb
1434 2014-02-18 15:49:00 <arubi> and that was a couple of months back
1435 2014-02-18 15:50:28 <abrkn> whats the easiest way to convert base58check to hex?
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1439 2014-02-18 15:51:47 <gavinandresen> wumpus: RE: insufficient funds flakiness: that is worrisome.  I'm compling -DDEBUG_LOCKORDER and working through the qa/rpc-tests tests, fixing mutex locking issues in the wallet
1440 2014-02-18 15:52:19 <wumpus> abrkn: in what language?
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1443 2014-02-18 15:52:41 <wumpus> gavinandresen: I haven't checked yet what bash command/ transaction causes the error
1444 2014-02-18 15:52:48 <abrkn> wumpus: any, could be an irc bot. just doing it once now
1445 2014-02-18 15:52:59 <gavinandresen> wumpus: it'd be one of the sendtoaddress calls
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1447 2014-02-18 15:53:41 <wumpus> abrkn: ok, I generally use bitcoin.base58 in python-bitcoinlib 
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1449 2014-02-18 15:55:30 <gpmnlxdw> @_@
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1454 2014-02-18 15:56:15 <wumpus> gavinandresen: last time I saw an error like this it was a race due to the blocks/transactions not yet propagated to the nodes
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1456 2014-02-18 15:56:49 <gavinandresen> wumpus: could be the test is missing a WaitBlocks ...
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1469 2014-02-18 16:03:31 <wumpus> gavinandresen: that sounds more likely than an error in the wallet
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1474 2014-02-18 16:05:07 <gavinandresen> wumpus: mmm.  Test looks OK, and the sends should never fail unless you're running -nospentzeroconfchange
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1477 2014-02-18 16:05:39 <gavinandresen> Could be a longstanding race condition bug.
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1479 2014-02-18 16:05:57 <wumpus> I'm not running with anything special, just the bitcoind compiled from that pull
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1483 2014-02-18 16:07:20 <ajoul> I try to execute cgminer in ubuntu but nothing happens
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1499 2014-02-18 16:17:22 <wumpus> ajoul: #bitcoin-mining
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1505 2014-02-18 16:18:43 <abrkn> blockchain.info displays transaction to a 3-address as "Estimated Confirmation Time: Very Soon (High Priority)". is that just a display bug?
1506 2014-02-18 16:19:08 <chairman_meow> hello
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1508 2014-02-18 16:19:34 <wumpus> abrkn: ask them
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1510 2014-02-18 16:19:51 <chairman_meow> which specific part of bitcoin finds other peers? in the context of decentralization
1511 2014-02-18 16:19:51 <chairman_meow> I was hoping to fork just that part
1512 2014-02-18 16:19:51 <chairman_meow> for my botnet
1513 2014-02-18 16:19:51 * chairman_meow was joking
1514 2014-02-18 16:19:59 <Graet> abrkn, blockchauin.info is a private business, best tyo ask them rather in the bitcoin -dev chanel
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1517 2014-02-18 16:20:19 <abrkn> Graet: i phrased this poorly. is there any special priority given by miners, that you know of, to multi sig txes?
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1519 2014-02-18 16:20:37 <chairman_meow> but I need that part
1520 2014-02-18 16:20:50 <Graet> not that i know of
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1522 2014-02-18 16:22:23 <wumpus> likely not
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1587 2014-02-18 17:08:47 <Wild0wnes> can i ask a general DAC question in here or is that too off topic?
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1589 2014-02-18 17:09:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|chairman_meow: I would guess net.cpp?
1590 2014-02-18 17:09:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|abrkn: an address starting with a 3 doesn't mean it's a multisig
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1597 2014-02-18 17:18:25 <Wild0wnes> guess i'll shoot:
1598 2014-02-18 17:18:27 <Wild0wnes> what is the best place to start when looking at all the options as a whole for decentralized apps?    i.e. mastercoin/counterpart/ethereum/bitshares etc
1599 2014-02-18 17:19:26 <Wild0wnes> i know they are all in developement... but is there a place to go that talks about all of them... (something without just one or two posts i mean)
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1605 2014-02-18 17:22:30 <abrkn> Wild0wnes: etherum has an irc channel and a forum
1606 2014-02-18 17:23:09 <abrkn> Wild0wnes: maybe http://www.reddit.com/r/coindev/
1607 2014-02-18 17:23:51 <Wild0wnes> thank you abrkn
1608 2014-02-18 17:24:05 <Wild0wnes> looking for something that is specific to smart contracts  / Decentralized apps / but not specific to a platform
1609 2014-02-18 17:24:35 <Wild0wnes> etherum is a platform... so me asking about other platforms on there would be out of line
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1628 2014-02-18 17:40:04 <Michail1> I redownloaded bootstrap from sourcef.  279000 block.  Anyone have the MD5 or SHA-1 for it?  (Also, torrent file info shows a diff HASH than the MD5/SHA-1
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1638 2014-02-18 17:41:55 <mmu_alu> Hello , when i develop service using "bitcoind" , how can i be noticed realtime transaction ? ( which API to use )
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1647 2014-02-18 17:50:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|mmu_alu: maybe you want walletnotify?
1648 2014-02-18 17:50:28 <mmu_alu> yes , but i want to not to use third party API
1649 2014-02-18 17:50:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Michail1: SHA1: 405f39084737aa9924de079b1769a0c610923494
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1651 2014-02-18 17:50:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|SHA256: ae10c1eca0bb4fd9b6ec96675ab9464dd5797f99cd1b58ef7b5180fd2b5f63be
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1653 2014-02-18 17:51:16 <Michail1> michagogo|cloud - Thanks.   So, my bootstrap was bad.  I match you for the new download.
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1655 2014-02-18 17:51:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I can give you MD5 in a moment
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1657 2014-02-18 17:51:51 <mmu_alu> I try to search by walletnotify , thank you
1658 2014-02-18 17:52:46 <Michail1> (Would be nice if sourcef would have the hashes listed.)  No need for MD5.  We match for sha1 (for the download I just made which is diff that the file I had been loading from).    So, will work now.  (hopefully)
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1662 2014-02-18 17:56:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Michail1: It's on sourceforge? o_O
1663 2014-02-18 17:57:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The best place to get it is the forum thread
1664 2014-02-18 17:57:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0
1665 2014-02-18 17:57:05 <Michail1> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/blockchain/
1666 2014-02-18 17:57:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Interesting
1667 2014-02-18 17:58:33 <Michail1> Ok, well, it matches jgar's hash.   So, all good now.
1668 2014-02-18 17:59:02 <Michail1> PS.  This might be the entire issue I have been fighting with the rPi for the last couple of weeks.  Will know in about 24 hours.
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1675 2014-02-18 18:05:49 <mmu_alu> thank you , michagogo|cloud , it is solved
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1682 2014-02-18 18:10:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...about time...
1683 2014-02-18 18:10:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Michail1: d8c0dc99232e748a5fa536337a8c4b5f *bootstrap.dat
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1685 2014-02-18 18:12:12 <Michail1> I closed the screen, but if we match on SHA-1, then we should match for MD5, right?   :)
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1687 2014-02-18 18:12:27 <Michail1> But will recheck when the file is moved to usb key anyway.
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1689 2014-02-18 18:14:02 <wallet42> is there a good document somewhere how to handle reorgs?
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1753 2014-02-18 19:03:26 <shaileshg> did anyone found any anomaly in in data size in this transaction http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/d29c9c0e8e4d2a9790922af73f0b8d51f0bd4bb19940d9cf910ead8fbe85bc9b ?
1754 2014-02-18 19:03:37 <shaileshg> shouldn't it be capped at 80 bytes
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1756 2014-02-18 19:04:21 <gmaxwell> shaileshg: thats only an IsStandard() rule.
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1761 2014-02-18 19:06:03 <shaileshg> gmaxwell: so..?
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1763 2014-02-18 19:07:16 <shaileshg> if its not standard transaction.. it doesn't need to confirm to data size rules?
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1765 2014-02-18 19:07:50 <gmaxwell> shaileshg: There is no data size rule, there is just an IsStandardness check that tests the size.
1766 2014-02-18 19:08:17 <shaileshg> and also, is it because OP_RETURN will be in 0.9.0 as one of the standard transaction type, there will be 80 bytes rule on it?
1767 2014-02-18 19:09:01 <shaileshg> gmaxwell: plz modify my last statement according to what you just said and answer that too
1768 2014-02-18 19:09:19 <shaileshg> i.e. IsStandard check will apply on OP_RETURN from 0.9.0
1769 2014-02-18 19:09:28 <shaileshg> as it will be one of the standard txn type?
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1774 2014-02-18 19:13:23 <gmaxwell> shaileshg: Generally OP_RETURN shouldn't be used— it's provided as a standard transaction type with a size limit— which we've been talking about about reducing down to ~32 bytes. as a less harmful way to do a harmful thing.  Like needle exchanges for heroin addicts.
1775 2014-02-18 19:13:50 <shaileshg> gmaxwell: right.
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1777 2014-02-18 19:15:15 <Logicwax> haha needle exchanges
1778 2014-02-18 19:16:09 <shaileshg> gmaxwell: i m just trying to understand what is possible and what not in bitcoin protocol with the current released code and work in progress.. would like to start with reading source code, but haven't touched c++ in long time.. don't know from where to start
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1783 2014-02-18 19:18:27 <shaileshg> gmaxwell: but point noted :)
1784 2014-02-18 19:18:56 <sipa> shaileshg: _any_ script is _valid_
1785 2014-02-18 19:19:12 <sipa> shaileshg: valid is the criterion for ending up in the blockchain, and the only thing miners need to care about
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1787 2014-02-18 19:19:25 <sipa> IsStandard is just a local policy, that some clients may disagree about
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1789 2014-02-18 19:19:36 <sipa> IsStandard is about what transactions are relayed
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1791 2014-02-18 19:19:53 <sipa> but a miner can put anything valid in the blockchain
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1794 2014-02-18 19:20:18 <shaileshg> sipa: Oh. Okay.
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1796 2014-02-18 19:20:59 <Michail1> michagogo|cloud - thanks.  We match there too.
1797 2014-02-18 19:21:00 <Michail1>                 MD5                             SHA-1
1798 2014-02-18 19:21:00 <Michail1> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
1799 2014-02-18 19:21:00 <Michail1> d8c0dc99232e748a5fa536337a8c4b5f 405f39084737aa9924de079b1769a0c610923494
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1817 2014-02-18 19:42:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: Meh, I still think the heroin needle analogy is backwards
1818 2014-02-18 19:43:18 <gmaxwell> Why? if you're going to go around doing something bad, we want want to at least keep the badness out of the utxo set.
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1821 2014-02-18 19:44:49 <sipa> you think it's good for you, everyone knows it's bad for you, and all we can do is make it a little less bad
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1823 2014-02-18 19:46:11 <gmaxwell> well, and we can reduce the public health externality somewhat.
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1825 2014-02-18 19:46:13 <maaku> except in bitcoin, everyone knows it's bad for everyone
1826 2014-02-18 19:46:28 <maaku> but it's the best analogy i've seen so far
1827 2014-02-18 19:46:45 <gmaxwell> maaku: some of these data storage people are really hyped up about "the bitcoin protocol, it will revolutionize dog grooming!" or whatever.
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1830 2014-02-18 19:49:42 <nym> heya, i am having trouble getting a latest copy of the blockchain. can anyone recommend a mirror? the largest torrent i've found has 200k blocks
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1832 2014-02-18 19:50:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The thing is that heroin is bad for you
1833 2014-02-18 19:50:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And not really bad for other people
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1835 2014-02-18 19:50:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And certainly not bad for every person everywhere in the world
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1837 2014-02-18 19:50:59 <sipa> if you live in a country with subsidized healthcare, it is bad for everyone :)
1838 2014-02-18 19:51:03 <richardus> externalities don't exist, bitcoin in a nutshell
1839 2014-02-18 19:51:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|This, though, isn't exactly bad for you
1840 2014-02-18 19:51:13 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: HIV and hepatitis-c is really bad in the population, and non-clean needles in heroin use contribute to the spread of those diseases.
1841 2014-02-18 19:51:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It is, however, bad for every single archival node
1842 2014-02-18 19:52:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: Okay, so it's somewhat bad for others, but most of the badness affects you
1843 2014-02-18 19:52:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|This is the user, abusing the network
1844 2014-02-18 19:53:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's beneficial to the user, because they have this data stored securely forever
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1846 2014-02-18 19:53:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But it's bad for everyone else
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1848 2014-02-18 19:54:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I think the rape analogy is much more analogous to the situation of blockchain spam
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1851 2014-02-18 19:59:08 <maaku> sipa: if only I had that luxury :)
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1854 2014-02-18 20:00:38 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: yes, but i've known people who have actually been though that and I wouldn't want to cheapen the word.
1855 2014-02-18 20:00:51 <maaku> blockchain data storage is not an act of physical and emotional violence that can destroy a person.
1856 2014-02-18 20:01:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|maaku: Okay, true
1857 2014-02-18 20:01:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Can you come up with something else?
1858 2014-02-18 20:03:58 <maaku> i've been trying :\
1859 2014-02-18 20:04:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's hard, because you want it to be something fairly serious and harmful
1860 2014-02-18 20:04:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Not something like jaywalking or copyright infringement
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1862 2014-02-18 20:04:53 <maaku> the needle-exchange is the best i've seen so far, though not perfect as we just said
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1866 2014-02-18 20:05:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|maaku: I, personally, think it's bad, not just imperfect
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1868 2014-02-18 20:05:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Because (as I just mentioned) it's basically backwards
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1887 2014-02-18 20:19:38 <Luke-Jr> maaku: why are we assuming blockchain spam is "cheap"/not-as-bad-as-rape?
1888 2014-02-18 20:20:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: Come on, you can't say it's *as bad*
1889 2014-02-18 20:20:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|22:00:34 <maaku> blockchain data storage is not an act of physical and emotional violence that can destroy a person.
1890 2014-02-18 20:20:42 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: context to context, it's essentially equivalent
1891 2014-02-18 20:21:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: Yes, it's lasting, permanent damage to the blockchain
1892 2014-02-18 20:21:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But it's a sensitive subject
1893 2014-02-18 20:22:04 <maaku> Is C++11 (e.g. lambda expressions) kosher for bitcoin-core?
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1895 2014-02-18 20:23:48 <Luke-Jr> maaku: I wouldn't recommend anything that won't work on Debian/CentOS/Gentoo stable
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1898 2014-02-18 20:26:58 <Luke-Jr> so GCC 4.4 (CentOS-restricted)
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1901 2014-02-18 20:29:11 <maaku> ok thanks
1902 2014-02-18 20:29:38 <maaku> (that's a no)
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1905 2014-02-18 20:31:23 <sipa> maaku: i've been looking forward to using c++11 :)
1906 2014-02-18 20:31:36 <sipa> but so far i think we still need to support some ancient system
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1909 2014-02-18 20:35:33 <Luke-Jr> Debian used to get all sorts of crap about being outdated, but CentOS seems always ancienter
1910 2014-02-18 20:35:40 <Luke-Jr> and Gentoo sometimes even falls behind
1911 2014-02-18 20:36:05 <Luke-Jr> (and I don't take Ubuntu seriously)
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1913 2014-02-18 20:36:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: Well, wheezy does
1914 2014-02-18 20:37:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sid is up to date
1915 2014-02-18 20:37:14 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: I only consider stable.
1916 2014-02-18 20:37:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Not sure how recent jessie is
1917 2014-02-18 20:37:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah
1918 2014-02-18 20:37:30 <sipa> "Sid is up to date."
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1925 2014-02-18 20:43:35 <Imbue> I'm using Debian ATM. in the past I did have concerns about it being out of dat
1926 2014-02-18 20:43:37 <Imbue> date*
1927 2014-02-18 20:43:56 <Imbue> I think recently, the linux desktop is just generally more mature, so it doesn't feel as much of an issue to run stuff that's not $latest-best-thing
1928 2014-02-18 20:44:40 <Imbue> drivers especially, I remember back in '05 it used to be a fun game because backports often just didn't exist for your hardware, so it was unstable or GTFO
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1947 2014-02-18 21:02:41 <nym> how many blockXXXX.dat files are there at the moment in .bitcoin for a fully synced blockchain?
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2038 2014-02-18 21:56:08 <Logicwax> heh geez i didnt think the needle analogy would stir up debate
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2040 2014-02-18 21:56:39 <Logicwax> i was pulling it out my ass when i originally said it......but arent all analogies by definition flawed somewhat?
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2043 2014-02-18 21:57:40 <Logicwax> also, if people want to use the prunable outputs / block spam / Op drop....... perhaps miners could just require a minimum fee to include them
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2046 2014-02-18 21:58:36 <sipa> analogies are like trucks: they work only as long as they don't break down
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2049 2014-02-18 22:01:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: yeah, and the needle analogy is held together with duct tape
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2051 2014-02-18 22:03:09 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: yeah, and duct tape is like the force (dark side, white side, holds the universe together)
2052 2014-02-18 22:03:25 <helo> Logicwax: miners don't have incentive to require higher fees-per-kb for spam vs non-spam. they generally just want fees.
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2054 2014-02-18 22:03:49 <sipa> the default relay policy could require it though
2055 2014-02-18 22:03:54 <sipa> which doesn't sound bad to me
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2057 2014-02-18 22:04:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: did I say duct tape?
2058 2014-02-18 22:05:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I meant masking tape
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2102 2014-02-18 22:35:22 <wallet42> are orphaned blocks also stored in blk*.dat files?
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2107 2014-02-18 22:38:57 <Luke-Jr> wallet42: stale blocks are, but not real orphans
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2118 2014-02-18 22:56:27 <antephialtic> so I've been thinking about how to make coinjoin possible in one RTT per user, rather than 2
2119 2014-02-18 22:57:29 <antephialtic> essentially what would be needed is a new sighash mode that allowed a user to sign a particular set of inputs/outputs
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2121 2014-02-18 22:58:31 <antephialtic> combined with sighash_all, this would allow a server to permute multiple in/out sets into a single (or multiple) transaction
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2126 2014-02-18 22:59:30 <sipa> antephialtic: that requires a hard fork
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2129 2014-02-18 22:59:40 <antephialtic> *err combined with sighash_anyonecanpay
2130 2014-02-18 22:59:54 <sipa> actually, not necessarily
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2133 2014-02-18 23:02:31 <antephialtic> something like SIGHASH_GROUP1, SIGHASH_GROUP2, ...
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2136 2014-02-18 23:04:06 <antephialtic> actually, even simpler would be SIGHASH_DOUBLE, allowing both an output and change address
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2194 2014-02-18 23:46:59 <andytoshi> antephialtic: try to make this proposal concrete. is it space efficient? can it be verified efficiently? how much extra flexibility does it give you, and is that worth the cost?
2195 2014-02-18 23:47:40 <andytoshi> antephialtic: it's a fun thing to think about for an alt but it's actually hard to pull off.
2196 2014-02-18 23:48:03 <antephialtic> andytoshi: I've decided to do a bit more research first. I'm reading through script.cpp so I 100% understand how OP_CHECKSIG works first.
2197 2014-02-18 23:48:06 <Logicwax> [14:03] <sipa> the default relay policy could require it though
2198 2014-02-18 23:48:21 <Logicwax> sipa: definitely would be a good idea!
2199 2014-02-18 23:49:59 <andytoshi> antephialtic: oh, and one more thing to think about for coinjoins is whether an attacker can match inputs to outputs just by looking at which inputs sign which outputs.
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2201 2014-02-18 23:50:46 <sipa> yep, make sure you don't reduce privacy by making it eg obvious which change and output belong together
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2205 2014-02-18 23:53:49 <antephialtic> yeah, I was thinking about that. will do some more thinking.
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