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54 2014-02-19 00:33:59 <Techguy305> heellooooo
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62 2014-02-19 00:36:18 <benzrf> hello!
63 2014-02-19 00:36:21 ruukasu has joined
64 2014-02-19 00:36:31 <benzrf> how can bitcoin check whether sources are valid and unspent without taking ages each time?
65 2014-02-19 00:37:19 <benzrf> *bitcoin nodes
66 2014-02-19 00:37:29 <ruukasu> >mfw benzrf knows more about magical internet money than I do
67 2014-02-19 00:38:29 <teward> ruukasu, don't
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69 2014-02-19 00:38:45 <benzrf> >tfw chanspeak is banned
70 2014-02-19 00:38:48 <teward> ruukasu, you stopped in #bitcoin, which saved you from my watchful eye, however, don't start here
71 2014-02-19 00:39:02 <benzrf> i run a bot in another channel
72 2014-02-19 00:39:10 <teward> best advice on the planet: if you have nothing constructive to say, say nothing.
73 2014-02-19 00:39:18 <benzrf> the owner programmed it to respond to >mfw and >tfw with 'constructive criticism'
74 2014-02-19 00:39:32 <ruukasu> teward, don't what?
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76 2014-02-19 00:39:46 <benzrf> ruukasu: talk like a fucking moron
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78 2014-02-19 00:40:00 <ruukasu> <benzrf> >tfw
79 2014-02-19 00:40:01 <benzrf> aka a 4chan user
80 2014-02-19 00:40:09 <benzrf> well im doing it ironically so obviously it's ok
81 2014-02-19 00:40:11 <benzrf> duhh
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83 2014-02-19 00:40:33 <benzrf> ruukasu: stop leading me off-topic
84 2014-02-19 00:40:39 <ruukasu> teward, I thought the problem was with the social justice conversation, not the slightly off-topic conversation
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86 2014-02-19 00:40:44 <benzrf> seriously, how is efficient txn validity figured out :(
87 2014-02-19 00:40:58 <teward> ruukasu, if you don't realize what i was talking about when I said "don't" then there's no hope for you
88 2014-02-19 00:41:08 <benzrf> teward: he's also a libertarian who likes ayn rand
89 2014-02-19 00:41:12 <benzrf> i lost hope for him ages ago
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91 2014-02-19 00:41:54 <gmaxwell> Please take this discussion elsewhere.
92 2014-02-19 00:41:57 <teward> ^ that
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94 2014-02-19 00:42:17 <benzrf> man nobody seems to know the answer to my question
95 2014-02-19 00:42:18 <benzrf> u_u
96 2014-02-19 00:42:24 <teward> that's where patience comes in
97 2014-02-19 00:42:27 <sipa> benzrf: we maintain a database of just the unspent transaction outputs
98 2014-02-19 00:42:30 charlesy has joined
99 2014-02-19 00:42:36 <benzrf> hmm
100 2014-02-19 00:42:39 <sipa> benzrf: which is tiny and optimized
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102 2014-02-19 00:43:04 <benzrf> so when a node accepts a new block, it removes any sourced txns from the db?
103 2014-02-19 00:43:21 <sipa> any transaction _outputs_ that are consumed, yes
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105 2014-02-19 00:43:33 <sipa> and adds the transaction outputs that are added by the transactions in that block
106 2014-02-19 00:43:49 <benzrf> OK
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109 2014-02-19 00:44:20 <benzrf> what if there's a bug in your client and it accidentally skips marking a txn as unspent?
110 2014-02-19 00:44:23 <benzrf> *spent
111 2014-02-19 00:44:29 <sipa> then there's a bug in your client
112 2014-02-19 00:44:36 <benzrf> might it accept an invalid block?
113 2014-02-19 00:44:43 <sipa> if there's a bug, anything can happen
114 2014-02-19 00:44:54 <benzrf> true i suppose
115 2014-02-19 00:45:03 <benzrf> ok, ill just implement a simple unspent-txn db
116 2014-02-19 00:45:13 <sipa> what for?
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119 2014-02-19 00:45:20 <benzrf> im writing a minimal-working cc from scratc
120 2014-02-19 00:45:25 <benzrf> for fun
121 2014-02-19 00:45:35 <sipa> ok
122 2014-02-19 00:45:40 <benzrf> i am not trying to make it practical, just theoretically usable
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124 2014-02-19 00:45:47 <benzrf> how do you recommend doing this db?
125 2014-02-19 00:45:55 <benzrf> one giant flat file of unspent txn ids?
126 2014-02-19 00:46:05 <sipa> it is not unspent _transactions_
127 2014-02-19 00:46:07 <benzrf> [im gonna stick with 1 output to a txn, it simplifies things]
128 2014-02-19 00:46:09 <sipa> it is outputs
129 2014-02-19 00:46:12 <benzrf> ^^
130 2014-02-19 00:46:13 <sipa> eh, ok
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132 2014-02-19 00:46:23 <sipa> what programming language?
133 2014-02-19 00:46:29 <benzrf> ruby
134 2014-02-19 00:46:35 <sipa> no clue then
135 2014-02-19 00:46:58 <benzrf> what does btc use?
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137 2014-02-19 00:47:24 <sipa> leveldb as a backend, but there's a custom in-memory cache on top
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139 2014-02-19 00:47:45 <benzrf> im not too worried about speed here
140 2014-02-19 00:48:01 <benzrf> i might add caching if it's unusably slow
141 2014-02-19 00:48:17 <benzrf> why a db?
142 2014-02-19 00:48:22 <benzrf> don't you just need a giant list, not values?
143 2014-02-19 00:48:27 <benzrf> since everything is implicitly mapped to true
144 2014-02-19 00:48:42 <sipa> no, you need the value and scriptPubKey of each of those outputs
145 2014-02-19 00:48:50 <sipa> and some other metadata about transactions
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148 2014-02-19 00:49:01 <sipa> like their height, and whether they were coinbase transactions
149 2014-02-19 00:49:11 <benzrf> coinbase?
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151 2014-02-19 00:49:31 <sipa> yes?
152 2014-02-19 00:49:50 <benzrf> what is coinbase i mean\
153 2014-02-19 00:50:04 <sipa> the first transaction in each block
154 2014-02-19 00:50:18 <sipa> which is a special, in that it has no real inputs
155 2014-02-19 00:50:29 <sipa> but is allowed to spend that block's fees and subsidy
156 2014-02-19 00:50:37 <sipa> that's pretty basic :)
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158 2014-02-19 00:52:05 <benzrf> ah
159 2014-02-19 00:52:09 <benzrf> coinbase = magic txn
160 2014-02-19 00:52:16 <benzrf> i only knew it as the latter
161 2014-02-19 00:52:17 <benzrf> :u
162 2014-02-19 00:52:28 <benzrf> i planned on implementing those by using a magic source
163 2014-02-19 00:54:34 <richardus> are you a wizard
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165 2014-02-19 00:54:47 <benzrf> of course i am!
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175 2014-02-19 01:04:04 <luke-jr_> sipa: usually that's called the generation transaction :p
176 2014-02-19 01:04:13 <luke-jr_> where coinbase is the scriptSig data specifically
177 2014-02-19 01:04:59 <maaku> luke-jr_: the source code calls both coinbase...
178 2014-02-19 01:05:01 <sipa> CTransaction::IsCoinbase()
179 2014-02-19 01:05:09 <sipa> i rest my case :p
180 2014-02-19 01:05:18 <luke-jr_> sure, but that gets confusing XD
181 2014-02-19 01:05:31 <sipa> fair enough
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183 2014-02-19 01:05:41 <sipa> deal with it :)
184 2014-02-19 01:05:41 <maaku> no argument on that
185 2014-02-19 01:06:47 * luke-jr_ notes the GUIs and RPC use "generated" :p
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250 2014-02-19 02:29:08 <maaku> Luke-Jr: are you going to run for a board seat this time?
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253 2014-02-19 02:30:32 <Luke-Jr> maaku: probably, seems people want me to, and nobody else I'd like to see on there has expressed interest AFAIK
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256 2014-02-19 02:34:54 <gavinandresen> The election will be for an Industry seat, so you'll have to get nominated by somebody with an Industry membership.
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262 2014-02-19 02:38:01 <CrackRockerson> Quick question, we are using listtransactions() using the BTC python rpc library.. now the transaction we are getting are unsorted (we are thinking of creating our own local DB to be able to sort the transactions) but is there a smarter way to do this?
263 2014-02-19 02:38:59 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: won't the original 5 seats all be up this year?
264 2014-02-19 02:39:16 <CrackRockerson> I now the that if you call a similar method using the qt client, there is a -sort operator.
265 2014-02-19 02:39:44 <CrackRockerson> But we have had no success in using it on the daemon
266 2014-02-19 02:40:20 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: I dunno, I'd have to look at when everything expires. We want to stagger terms, having everybody expire at the same time is not good
267 2014-02-19 02:40:21 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: personally, I think Tony is a much better fit for an industry seat; and he was interested at least last election, so I wouldn't even try for that most likely
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270 2014-02-19 02:41:11 <gavinandresen> (so maybe next election will be some people running for 1-year and some for 2-year seats⦠or somethingâ¦. that's all stuff I don't really care about, but other people on the board do)
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275 2014-02-19 02:43:05 <gavinandresen> The Foundation is also in the process of being Internationalized, with an umbrella organization and then a US subsidiary. Some of the current board members may move to the US organization (none will serve on both, i don't think⦠again, organizational structure is something I really don't pay much attention to)
276 2014-02-19 02:44:28 <Luke-Jr> that's confusing, I thought it was always international
277 2014-02-19 02:44:32 <gavinandresen> CrackRockerson: sorting in your app versus sorting before returning the data to your app shouldn't really make a difference.
278 2014-02-19 02:45:41 <gavinandresen> CrackRockerson: ⦠and listtransactions doesn't give any sort options. Depending on what you're doing, listsinceblock and keeping track of what transactions you already asked about might be more efficient.
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281 2014-02-19 02:47:17 <CrackRockerson> I see... thanks for your time and response Gavin
282 2014-02-19 02:47:23 <CrackRockerson> really appreciated
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460 2014-02-19 05:59:03 <benzrf> hey
461 2014-02-19 05:59:17 <benzrf> wait nvm <_<
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468 2014-02-19 06:09:13 <bitpar> Hey, I'm trying to integrate bitcoind with a web app I am working on. I'm using listsinceblock to get received BTC from users. If a mutated transaction gets confirmed, will the unconfirmed one be removed from listsinceblock?
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478 2014-02-19 06:21:13 <bitpar> And is there a reason why 'getbalance' gives only the confirmed balance and 'getbalance account' includes unconfirmed?
479 2014-02-19 06:21:46 <Luke-Jr> yes
480 2014-02-19 06:22:33 CBit has joined
481 2014-02-19 06:23:00 <Luke-Jr> accounts are essentially 100% separated from confirmation concepts, for better or worse
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485 2014-02-19 06:25:04 <ummjackson> will probably get banned for this but here goes - the Dogecoin development team needs help. if any experience crypto devs are interested please message me. any help is really appreciated, and i really appreciate all the hard work you put into Bitcoin. thanks
486 2014-02-19 06:26:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ummjackson: Dogecoin is an off-topic joke
487 2014-02-19 06:26:49 <bitpar> Ok, makes sense. If I'm keeping user's addresses and balances in SQL, is there any reason to also use accounts in bitcoind? I've been looking through the wiki and some code examples but I've yet to find a definitive best practice.
488 2014-02-19 06:27:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bitpar: no
489 2014-02-19 06:27:21 <Cusipzzz> don't use bitcoind accounts
490 2014-02-19 06:27:25 glebe has joined
491 2014-02-19 06:27:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Don- ^
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496 2014-02-19 06:31:58 <bitpar> Ok, thank you for your help. One more thing, on malleability again, if I send a transaction and the confirmed hash is different, will the new transaction seen in bitcoind still have a comment I put in? Will the old transaction still appear in the wallet as unconfirmed or does it get cleaned/replaced?
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498 2014-02-19 06:33:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bitpar: as of 0.8.6, it will stick around as unconfirmed forever, if I'm not mistaken
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501 2014-02-19 06:38:31 <bitpar> Does that have any side effects? Assuming I wait for a block, would it still try to spend change using the invalid txhash or would it use the confirmed txhash because that's what's in a block?
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506 2014-02-19 06:45:24 <bitpar> I thought the original transaction would be invalidated if confirmed with another txhash since the original would now have spent inputs.
507 2014-02-19 06:48:36 <bitpar> I think transactions with invalid change stick around so I guess it would be the same for mutated ones too.
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518 2014-02-19 06:58:20 <bitpar> So my understanding is that I will have unconfirmed send/receive transactions stuck in bitcoind if they are confirmed with a different txhash. Am I safe in sending transactions, as in not spending invalid change inputs, as long as I wait for the previous sent transaction to be confirmed?
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523 2014-02-19 07:07:00 <bitpar> And assuming that the block my transaction is confirmed in is not orphaned.
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528 2014-02-19 07:16:00 <shaileshg> hi, how do you i get my bitcoin address private key from satoshi client.. it is giving me some 52 characters long hexadecimal string
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530 2014-02-19 07:16:14 <shaileshg> i believe it should be 64 characters long..
531 2014-02-19 07:16:25 <shaileshg> *do I get...
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533 2014-02-19 07:16:43 <bitpar> dumpprivkey
534 2014-02-19 07:17:09 <shaileshg> bitpar: yeah.. dumpprivkey is giving me 52 characters long string
535 2014-02-19 07:17:20 <shaileshg> and a correction.. its not hex string
536 2014-02-19 07:17:25 <bitpar> that's your private key
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538 2014-02-19 07:18:03 <shaileshg> converting that to wif format is not giving me string starting with 5
539 2014-02-19 07:18:14 <shaileshg> which is what wif address should start with
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543 2014-02-19 07:19:45 <shaileshg> bitpar: The private key in wallet import format should start with 5.
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547 2014-02-19 07:22:15 <bitpar> Isn't dumpprivkey already in WIF?
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549 2014-02-19 07:22:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes
550 2014-02-19 07:22:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It is.
551 2014-02-19 07:22:53 <shaileshg> no. In test mode, its for example "cPxAMKwjuNH6UkCWZm8rZwNpywu67Xqx4Kmq31VPvz53trenpnYB" which doesn't look like in WIF format
552 2014-02-19 07:23:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: uh
553 2014-02-19 07:23:09 <bitpar> Testnet addresses start with a different letter
554 2014-02-19 07:23:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|WIF is just base58
555 2014-02-19 07:23:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|dumpprivkey returns in WIF.
556 2014-02-19 07:24:51 <shaileshg> michagogo|cloud: okay
557 2014-02-19 07:25:24 <bitpar> Wouldn't mempool.removeConflicts(tx) remove any unconfirmed transactions with already spent inputs or does that not affect unconfirmed transactions with already spent inputs that were generated by my client?
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571 2014-02-19 07:43:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bitpar: mempool != wallet
572 2014-02-19 07:44:09 <shaileshg> michagogo|cloud: Oh. I didn't knew there exists two formats for private key.. compressed and uncompressed
573 2014-02-19 07:44:21 <shaileshg> In old format: Private Key WIF (51 characters base58, starts with a '9'):
574 2014-02-19 07:44:31 <shaileshg> In new format: Private Key WIF (compressed, 52 characters base58, starts with a 'c'):
575 2014-02-19 07:44:36 <shaileshg> so, now it makes sense
576 2014-02-19 07:44:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shaileshg: there are 4
577 2014-02-19 07:45:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Testnet/mainnet and compressed/uncompressed
578 2014-02-19 07:45:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|2x2
579 2014-02-19 07:45:15 <shaileshg> hmm
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582 2014-02-19 07:47:24 <shaileshg> michagogo|cloud: any link to its documentation?
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584 2014-02-19 07:48:23 <bitpar> michagogo|cloud: Thanks. Do you know if bitcoind will be ok if I wait for confirmations between each send transactions?
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592 2014-02-19 07:56:54 <bitpar> If I set minconf=6, will that avoid any potential spends of unconfirmed change?
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600 2014-02-19 08:03:08 <Logicwax> all this malleability talk got me thinking, why do the miners get all the authority in whats included in blocks? why aren't nodes a part of this voting process?
601 2014-02-19 08:03:29 <Logicwax> in other words, why can't all nodes hold miners to a baseline set of TXs that are agreed to be included
602 2014-02-19 08:03:48 <Belxjander> trust?
603 2014-02-19 08:03:57 <maaku> Logicwax: #bitcoin, please
604 2014-02-19 08:04:21 <Logicwax> such as something like, "other than your unique coinbase tx, and maybe the last few seconds of TXs, you HAVE to include the last 10 minutes to the last minute of TXs or block is invalid"
605 2014-02-19 08:04:29 <Logicwax> ok
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607 2014-02-19 08:05:35 <bitpar> According to gmaxwell, minconf doesn't even affect which coins are used as inputs https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3651
608 2014-02-19 08:06:18 <gmaxwell> It does not.
609 2014-02-19 08:06:41 <gmaxwell> bitpar: we have a setting now in git to not spend unconfirmed change.
610 2014-02-19 08:07:07 <gmaxwell> It's just a binary flag, but indeed it might be better as a confirmation count, perhaps you should open an issue requesting that if you think you want more than a single confirm of checking.
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613 2014-02-19 08:07:35 <bitpar> For the time being, should I just wait for my last send transaction to be confirmed before sending another to avoid unconfirmed change inputs? Will that prevent any invalid inputs from getting into my sends?
614 2014-02-19 08:07:50 <bitpar> I can just batch send my transactions with sendmany
615 2014-02-19 08:08:12 <wumpus> bitpar: yes, that will avoid it
616 2014-02-19 08:08:17 <gmaxwell> bitpar: sure, that will achieve that endâ it will also only use unconfirmed change as a last resort, if the txn would have otherwise failed.
617 2014-02-19 08:08:31 <wumpus> bitpar: if all your coins are confirmed it cannot use unconfirmed change by definition
618 2014-02-19 08:08:35 <gmaxwell> (already, thats the long-standing behavior)
619 2014-02-19 08:08:45 <wumpus> bitpar: also yes please use sendmany and batch sends
620 2014-02-19 08:08:58 <gmaxwell> though it's a bit hard to depend on the last-resortness since you might end up selecting it due to fee taking you just over the line.
621 2014-02-19 08:09:24 <bitpar> Awesome! I'll wait for a confirm between batch sends, I think that would minimize my load on blockchain too.
622 2014-02-19 08:09:37 <gmaxwell> yea, batching is a great thing to do generally.
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624 2014-02-19 08:12:08 <uiop> Logicwax: because miners are literally and by design the judge and jury of what goes into the blockchain, and what exists in the blockchain is the word of god (where god := miners)
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626 2014-02-19 08:12:31 <Luke-Jr> uiop: not really
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628 2014-02-19 08:12:54 <bitpar> Thank you for your help. I'll use sendmany, it saves on fees and I can just read send transactions from my DB whenever my last transaction gets confirmed instead of having to use message passing.
629 2014-02-19 08:13:27 <uiop> Luke-Jr: what would be your "attack" against miners' ignoring your demands?
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632 2014-02-19 08:14:05 <Luke-Jr> uiop: what demands?
633 2014-02-19 08:14:10 <Luke-Jr> miners who break the rules get ignored
634 2014-02-19 08:14:20 <uiop> Luke-Jr: what rules?
635 2014-02-19 08:14:46 <Luke-Jr> â¦â¦â¦â¦..
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637 2014-02-19 08:15:11 <uiop> Luke-Jr: transaction forwarding rules?
638 2014-02-19 08:15:24 <Luke-Jr> transaction/block validity rules
639 2014-02-19 08:15:35 <uiop> Luke-Jr: if not that, then the only rules are the txn validity rules defined by the spec
640 2014-02-19 08:15:59 <uiop> (obviously i meant w/in those bounds)
641 2014-02-19 08:16:01 <Luke-Jr> there is no spec
642 2014-02-19 08:16:11 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
643 2014-02-19 08:16:24 <uiop> s/spec/our best approzimation/
644 2014-02-19 08:16:30 <uiop> tr z x
645 2014-02-19 08:16:52 sheepman is now known as afk!~sheepman@unaffiliated/sheepman|sheepman
646 2014-02-19 08:18:09 Adlai has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
647 2014-02-19 08:18:25 <Logicwax> uiop: yeah thats what im asking. why make them god? why not have a minimum baseline they have to adhere to, that is agreed by nodes. that way mining pools and 51% wont matter as much
648 2014-02-19 08:18:39 <uiop> but i'm digressing, what i'm really saying is that miners are free to ignore what any particular bitcoin node and/or wallet implem considers acceptable, since they are only constrained by the acceptance of other miners who consider their mined block valid and mine off of it
649 2014-02-19 08:19:15 <Luke-Jr> uiop: but that's not true
650 2014-02-19 08:19:35 <uiop> Luke-Jr: why! (?) :)
651 2014-02-19 08:19:39 <Logicwax> seems it would useful to have nodes all agree on a baseline set of tx's to include. it would be unrealistic to require them to have every TX even if it occured milliseconds ago
652 2014-02-19 08:20:05 <maaku> Logicwax: and what mechanism would that be?
653 2014-02-19 08:20:10 <Logicwax> but if a TX is in a ton of mempools for a while.....maybe it would be useful to have nodes hold them to it
654 2014-02-19 08:20:19 <maaku> It's a rhetorical question - that's *exactly* what bitcoin solves
655 2014-02-19 08:20:31 <Luke-Jr> uiop: because miners aren't all that important
656 2014-02-19 08:20:50 <maaku> There is no way to have nodes "vote" on what gets on the chain except by some fundamentally scarce resource ... eg. proof-of-work
657 2014-02-19 08:21:01 <maaku> This is #bitcoin 101, please toake it there
658 2014-02-19 08:21:35 <uiop> Luke-Jr: :o
659 2014-02-19 08:21:43 <Logicwax> but i dont like the idea of miners getting all the authority. what if Visa just throws shit ton of money at being the dominant hash power so as to charge crazy fees and mine (heh) the data for marketing purposes
660 2014-02-19 08:22:24 <Logicwax> maaku: no, i understand what the miners do and why this isn't the case. im just throwing some food for thought
661 2014-02-19 08:23:10 freggles has quit ()
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664 2014-02-19 08:24:31 <bitpar> Logicwax: Why the longest chain is the only authority is explained in the whitepaper https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
665 2014-02-19 08:24:57 <Logicwax> i guess I shouldn't have said "why"
666 2014-02-19 08:25:20 <Logicwax> im just rethinking things, since the whole ghash.io almost 50% thing was happening a few weeks ago
667 2014-02-19 08:25:39 wateratosthenes has quit (Quit: wateratosthenes)
668 2014-02-19 08:25:53 <Logicwax> although, p2pool somewhat solves miners abuse
669 2014-02-19 08:26:27 <maaku> Logicwax: there is no way to do what you are proposing and stay decentralized. It is impossible.
670 2014-02-19 08:27:02 shaman_ua has joined
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672 2014-02-19 08:27:07 <Logicwax> well, difficulty is voted by all nodes, is it not?
673 2014-02-19 08:27:14 <Luke-Jr> â¦â¦â¦â¦.
674 2014-02-19 08:27:30 <bitpar> Difficulty is computed by a function, it's not voted on.
675 2014-02-19 08:28:07 <Logicwax> computed yes...but the result is whatever 51% of nodes consider is the answer, no?
676 2014-02-19 08:28:19 <wumpus> no
677 2014-02-19 08:28:20 <bitpar> No
678 2014-02-19 08:28:25 <Logicwax> or is it just the miners decide that too?
679 2014-02-19 08:28:28 <bitpar> No
680 2014-02-19 08:28:44 <phillipsjk> In the US participating in something is considered "voting". They think capitalism works too :)
681 2014-02-19 08:29:00 <wumpus> phillipsjk: ;)
682 2014-02-19 08:29:01 <Logicwax> heh
683 2014-02-19 08:29:14 <bitpar> Nodes will not accept any blocks if they do not meet the difficulty requirement calculated by the node.
684 2014-02-19 08:29:48 <Logicwax> so what happens when 10,000 people download a copy of bitcoin-qt that has a slightly modded diffculty calc function
685 2014-02-19 08:30:05 <bitpar> a fork happens
686 2014-02-19 08:30:13 <phillipsjk> Logicwax, likely a block-chain fork.
687 2014-02-19 08:30:15 <Logicwax> is it whatever the miners decide it is?
688 2014-02-19 08:30:34 <Logicwax> well that doesnt sound good :/
689 2014-02-19 08:30:57 <phillipsjk> Miners would have to choose what fork to participate in , as would the non-mining nodes.
690 2014-02-19 08:31:11 <wumpus> Logicwax: well if none of those people is a miner, they would reject every new block
691 2014-02-19 08:31:18 <maaku> Logicwax: please don't fill up this channel with non-development stuff. People are trying to work here.
692 2014-02-19 08:31:30 <phillipsjk> It gets awkward if the non-mining nodes disagree with the miners though.
693 2014-02-19 08:31:44 <uiop> Luke-Jr: (i must say though, your unicode period coup de grace took me for a chuckle)
694 2014-02-19 08:31:45 <Logicwax> maaku: ok ok.....the ball was rolling though. my apologies
695 2014-02-19 08:32:16 <Logicwax> phillipsjk: that sounds like voting to me :)
696 2014-02-19 08:32:25 FortyTwoPoints has joined
697 2014-02-19 08:32:43 <maaku> These are fair questions for someone new to bitcoin to ask (you'll find there are plenty of answers), but #bitcoin or bitcointalk or the bitcoin stack exchange are probably better locations
698 2014-02-19 08:33:43 <Logicwax> maaku: im not asking for what is implemented. but asking to spur thought on improvement
699 2014-02-19 08:33:48 roasbeef has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
700 2014-02-19 08:34:30 <phillipsjk> Logicwax, suggesting improvement is difficult if you do not understand it.
701 2014-02-19 08:34:34 <wumpus> you need to understand how it works before you can think of improvements
702 2014-02-19 08:34:44 <uiop> Logicwax: "improvement" (without consensus) is indistinguishable from an attack
703 2014-02-19 08:35:13 <uiop> in fact, since improvement is subjective, it just might be an attack
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707 2014-02-19 08:37:54 <Logicwax> right. and everything said thus far is exactly as I understood it to be. (except for the severity of the fork). I just wanted to poll some of your thoughts on how a voting system could be implemented
708 2014-02-19 08:38:04 helo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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710 2014-02-19 08:38:08 <Logicwax> or how the block forking that would happen, could not be defined as voting
711 2014-02-19 08:39:04 Plumbum27 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
712 2014-02-19 08:39:14 <uiop> Logicwax: the "voting" is implicit, in the same sense that a mob "votes" to overturn the first car, then to begin the looting. "vote" is another word for "no one can stop it"
713 2014-02-19 08:39:19 <maaku> Logicwax: what you're asking is akin to "What if we built a perpetual motion machine, wouldn't that help?" - why yes, yes it would.
714 2014-02-19 08:39:21 Plumbum27 has joined
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716 2014-02-19 08:40:26 <maaku> Read the whitepaper, the source code, what technical explanations are out there and you will understand why it doesn't even make sense to propose nodes "simply vote"
717 2014-02-19 08:40:34 <Logicwax> uiop: good phrasing.
718 2014-02-19 08:41:12 <Logicwax> but as phillipsjk said with block forking, it sounds like this matches that description of voting (as it wouldnt be the 51% hash power voting, but rather all nodes)
719 2014-02-19 08:41:43 AtashiCon has joined
720 2014-02-19 08:41:50 <phillipsjk> Logicwax, except both candidates win
721 2014-02-19 08:42:00 dipendra has joined
722 2014-02-19 08:42:33 <phillipsjk> ..causing confusion of course.
723 2014-02-19 08:42:45 stingsay` has joined
724 2014-02-19 08:42:50 <bitpar> Logicwax: It's not really voting, my client will disregard a fork that contains a block it considers to be invalid, regardless of the hash power or length of that chain.
725 2014-02-19 08:44:15 <wumpus> -dev is not the place for dreamy ideas without a firm grounding in reality, before you know it people start talking about PoW functions that cure cancer or hosting the blockchain in DHTs
726 2014-02-19 08:44:15 <Logicwax> bitpar: exactly. so you would be casting a vote essentially (your client could be a forked source version, with different rules). whereas, in the TX's the hash power botes
727 2014-02-19 08:45:04 * phillipsjk notes wumpus is not joking.
728 2014-02-19 08:45:10 helo has joined
729 2014-02-19 08:45:29 <bitpar> If I change the source code of my client to use different rules than set by the Bitcoin protocol, then it's not really Bitcoin anymore.
730 2014-02-19 08:46:08 <Logicwax> all I'm trying to say, is that the TX inclusions are voted by hash power. and difficulty (amongst others im sure) is voted by ALL nodes. i'll shutup now.
731 2014-02-19 08:47:08 <wumpus> changing the protocol to avoid 50% attacks is among those things, many people have talked about it, the internet is full of discussions about it, the chance that you'll solve this particular problem is very very small. And if you do have that great proposal please write it down clearly in a way that can be implemented, or even better, make an implementation.
732 2014-02-19 08:48:41 dust-otc has joined
733 2014-02-19 08:49:00 <bitpar> And it's not of much benefit if the implementation introduces centralization or another set of problems.
734 2014-02-19 08:50:05 <uiop> wumpus: lol
735 2014-02-19 08:50:10 <uiop> wumpus: (PoWs and DHTs)
736 2014-02-19 08:50:28 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: someone was arguing with me the other day insisting bitcoin should support scientific research with mining
737 2014-02-19 08:50:51 <Luke-Jr> I don't know why they think Bitcoin can overlap with folding@home any better than SETI can :/
738 2014-02-19 08:50:56 <Logicwax> bitpar: all nodes voting on difficulty isn't centralization. it happens already!
739 2014-02-19 08:51:25 * Luke-Jr wonders at what point Logicwax gets kicked for idiocy >.>
740 2014-02-19 08:51:27 <Logicwax> heh SETI
741 2014-02-19 08:51:29 <antephialtic> I wouldn't be opposed to that, if it was possible to construct such a "useful" PoW that could be a) tunable to a desired difficulty, b) easily verifiable
742 2014-02-19 08:51:29 <uiop> Luke-Jr: the other week i got served a targeted ad for a (real) mining company based out of reno nevada :)
743 2014-02-19 08:51:30 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: and the worst thing is that they mean well, but suggestion without understanding the scope of the problem are just useless
744 2014-02-19 08:52:05 <wumpus> 'why don't we just...'
745 2014-02-19 08:52:17 <antephialtic> and cunningham chains are of dubious usefulness
746 2014-02-19 08:52:28 <wumpus> anyway, this is offtopic for -dev as well
747 2014-02-19 08:52:53 <uiop> haha, i read PoW and POW until just now
748 2014-02-19 08:53:15 <uiop> s/and/as/
749 2014-02-19 08:53:28 <Luke-Jr> uiop: �
750 2014-02-19 08:53:41 <Luke-Jr> like Mario POW?
751 2014-02-19 08:53:44 <uiop> i read proof-of-work as prisoner-of-war until 10 seconds ago :)
752 2014-02-19 08:53:47 <Luke-Jr> o
753 2014-02-19 08:54:27 <bitpar> You should ask them why doesn't scientific research support bitcoin mining with their distributed computing.
754 2014-02-19 08:55:30 oleganza has joined
755 2014-02-19 08:55:53 mappum_ has joined
756 2014-02-19 08:55:53 mappppum has joined
757 2014-02-19 08:57:03 <uiop> (just read it as that in wumpus' last comment though, of course)
758 2014-02-19 08:57:42 <wumpus> let's just hope no one builds an altcoin based on proof-of-war
759 2014-02-19 08:58:20 <uiop> if they did, i wonder if they'd take prisoners?
760 2014-02-19 08:58:31 CBit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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762 2014-02-19 08:58:56 mapppum has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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765 2014-02-19 09:00:18 t7 has joined
766 2014-02-19 09:00:22 <uiop> don't answer that
767 2014-02-19 09:01:46 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it's pretty easy to do proof-you-attacked-another-blockchain.
768 2014-02-19 09:02:21 <uiop> omg, corewars meets the blockchain!
769 2014-02-19 09:02:29 flotsamuel has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
770 2014-02-19 09:03:14 Belxjander has joined
771 2014-02-19 09:04:06 <gmaxwell> good thing SSL doesn't provide non-repudiation, otherwise SSL to ciaworld fact book could get you proof-of-genocide. :(
772 2014-02-19 09:05:04 <Diablo-D3> uh.
773 2014-02-19 09:05:06 <wumpus> well in when people start to blabber about how bitcoin wil bring a dystopia to the world, we can always tell them it could be worse
774 2014-02-19 09:05:06 <Diablo-D3> I.
775 2014-02-19 09:05:07 <Diablo-D3> uih.
776 2014-02-19 09:05:10 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: wat.
777 2014-02-19 09:06:51 foamz has joined
778 2014-02-19 09:06:59 stonecoldpat has joined
779 2014-02-19 09:07:45 <uiop> Diablo-D3: gmaxwell's analogy was a homomorphism, not an iso. the brave new world of post-modernism
780 2014-02-19 09:08:39 TheBison has quit (Quit: TheBison)
781 2014-02-19 09:09:10 dipendra has quit (Quit: Leaving)
782 2014-02-19 09:10:10 Jasmin68k has joined
783 2014-02-19 09:10:22 chemu has joined
784 2014-02-19 09:10:27 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hah!
785 2014-02-19 09:10:47 chemu has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
786 2014-02-19 09:11:14 chemu has joined
787 2014-02-19 09:11:40 <gmaxwell> wumpus: there are template based range checked types that can be used in C++ ... not exactly the speediest stuff.
788 2014-02-19 09:12:00 <gmaxwell> and they often make debugging much harder, since any issue turns into pages of template indirection rubbish.
789 2014-02-19 09:12:00 <wumpus> gmaxwell: right, but CPUs have supported overflow flags since... before I was born
790 2014-02-19 09:12:27 <wumpus> checking those flags would be slower, but it wouldn't need to be much slower
791 2014-02-19 09:12:38 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yep. though algebraic simplification can make them less than useful, also checking the flags register almost always stalls the pipeline.
792 2014-02-19 09:12:43 Eiii has quit ()
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794 2014-02-19 09:13:12 <gmaxwell> clang can compile with integer sanitization, which is nice, but there is a pretty obvious performance hit.
795 2014-02-19 09:14:01 <Diablo-D3> so why not just use Indra?
796 2014-02-19 09:14:09 Elio19 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
797 2014-02-19 09:14:45 <wumpus> gmaxwell: but then you have to make the choice to use it everywhere, it should be an optional thing per case
798 2014-02-19 09:15:02 <wumpus> or per type at least
799 2014-02-19 09:15:04 <antephialtic> q: would it be possible to add a new sighash type w/o a hard fork?
800 2014-02-19 09:15:06 chemu has left ()
801 2014-02-19 09:16:08 <gmaxwell> antephialtic: yes, by adding a new checksig operator, or via P2SH like nesting of a new script kind.
802 2014-02-19 09:16:40 <antephialtic> yeah, I meant as a new checksig operator.
803 2014-02-19 09:17:54 <gmaxwell> antephialtic: though in past contemplation I've had about new sighash flags, it turns out that a lot of ideas that initially sound good have awkward corner cases.
804 2014-02-19 09:18:25 <gmaxwell> so getting the actual mechnics right may be harder than the actual deployment. :)
805 2014-02-19 09:18:45 <antephialtic> gmaxwell: I've been thinking about this today, would it be possible to have a SIGHASH_DOUBLE that signed two inputs & two outputs
806 2014-02-19 09:19:28 <antephialtic> goal is to enable some kind of transaction reassembly (w/ change output) for a 1RTT coinjoin
807 2014-02-19 09:19:49 <gmaxwell> antephialtic: yea I've wanted thatâ or more generally something which could bitmask take a count and offset for both inputs and outputs... and would sign them (and the masks themselves, of course)
808 2014-02-19 09:20:58 profreid has joined
809 2014-02-19 09:21:00 <gmaxwell> I've also wanted the ability to sign value>=x instead of value, so that an output could be increased by another signature...
810 2014-02-19 09:21:26 <antephialtic> I think a major usecase would be for a merchant server in a BIP70 exchange. Merchant would have freedom to coalesce/permute groups of transactions as they please
811 2014-02-19 09:21:46 ThomasV has joined
812 2014-02-19 09:22:46 <antephialtic> could allow for integration of coinjoin & payment protocol
813 2014-02-19 09:23:31 Barbossa87 has joined
814 2014-02-19 09:23:59 <gmaxwell> antephialtic: I'd like there to someday be a payment protocol message that says "if you understand this message, please also add these extra txid:vouts to your transaction so I can coalesce my funds via your payment to me"
815 2014-02-19 09:25:07 <antephialtic> yeah that is another way of doing it. Honestly, its probably more realistic to change bip70 at this point than to change opcodes
816 2014-02-19 09:25:23 <antephialtic> but opcode changes are more interesting to think about :)
817 2014-02-19 09:26:17 Barbossa87 has left ()
818 2014-02-19 09:26:18 <gmaxwell> well it can be added to payment protocol in the future too... just a new bip for a new message type.
819 2014-02-19 09:26:42 <t7> get rid of scripts, they (non standard ones) are not used enough to justify the complexity
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823 2014-02-19 09:29:52 <antephialtic> gmaxwell: also, have you heard anything about ZeroCash? interested to hear your thoughts
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825 2014-02-19 09:35:43 <gmaxwell> t7: go away.
826 2014-02-19 09:36:32 <t7> the minimalists will not be silenced
827 2014-02-19 09:37:03 <t7> we want a tiny, formally verified core
828 2014-02-19 09:37:42 <antephialtic> t7: show us your coq
829 2014-02-19 09:38:32 <t7> we will get a team of 200 to go through each line of C individually
830 2014-02-19 09:38:45 <t7> all with grey beards
831 2014-02-19 09:38:50 <gmaxwell> t7: too badâ first, it's the way it is and there is no way you're convincing people to remove that functoinality, so it's a dead argument. Beyond that, without the ability to bind external things you end up constantly having to transfer coins to centeralized partiesâ defeating the purpose of the system.
832 2014-02-19 09:39:50 TheBison has joined
833 2014-02-19 09:40:10 <gmaxwell> Beyond that, script is actually pretty simple and the implementation of it is within the scope of things that could be formally verified.
834 2014-02-19 09:40:58 swulf-- has joined
835 2014-02-19 09:40:59 <t7> i have a feeling someone already started on that
836 2014-02-19 09:41:09 <t7> i remember reading something
837 2014-02-19 09:41:28 MoALTz_ has joined
838 2014-02-19 09:42:10 <gmaxwell> roconnor started on a haskell implementation which is somethat he said he'd do before a COQ one, but he burned out on bitcoin before finishing the work. (and had a bunch of complaints, though not about script)
839 2014-02-19 09:42:28 <wumpus> having no scripting language means everything has to be special-caed
840 2014-02-19 09:42:32 <wumpus> special-cased*
841 2014-02-19 09:42:53 <gmaxwell> he did convince us to not implement OP_EVAL which would have made formal analysis much harder.
842 2014-02-19 09:43:06 <epscy> t7: I would like to see a fork without the scriptSig stuff
843 2014-02-19 09:44:00 <gmaxwell> meanwhile ethereum people are talking about raising 30k btc to fund development of a "turing complete" script, including stuff like having a JIT as an essential to implement functionality...
844 2014-02-19 09:44:18 <t7> lol
845 2014-02-19 09:44:32 <SomeoneWeird> 0.o
846 2014-02-19 09:44:38 MoALTz_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
847 2014-02-19 09:44:38 <wumpus> and a minimal scripting language could be more minimalistic than trying to enumerate what everyone wants (effectively using C++ as a very inflexible scripting language)
848 2014-02-19 09:44:42 <t7> dont they need to define an upper bound of operations or something?
849 2014-02-19 09:45:09 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: waiiittt...they want a jit as a part of their execution engine?
850 2014-02-19 09:45:10 <BlueMatt> wow....
851 2014-02-19 09:45:21 cr3pe has joined
852 2014-02-19 09:45:31 <gmaxwell> t7: they'll have a cycle counter that burns fees (and then the cycle counter is part of the normative implementation, good freeking luck not having consistency bugs in a JIT there!)
853 2014-02-19 09:45:33 MoALTz_ has joined
854 2014-02-19 09:46:10 <wumpus> ethereum is kind of the other extreme, it will be too complex to make any sense of for humans
855 2014-02-19 09:46:11 <t7> thats not as stupid as it first sounds
856 2014-02-19 09:46:12 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea, latest banter is about eliminating all high level operations like OP_SHA256 and implementing everything in the script, and then just having a smart implementation that does the right thing (TM) to get acceptable performance.
857 2014-02-19 09:46:55 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell:and they have billions in funding and 10 years to get it right before launch, right?
858 2014-02-19 09:47:02 lolstate has joined
859 2014-02-19 09:47:15 MoALTz__ has joined
860 2014-02-19 09:47:24 <gmaxwell> "Good luck!"
861 2014-02-19 09:47:57 <jcorgan> [6~[6~/clear
862 2014-02-19 09:48:29 <gmaxwell> t7: they still have the problem of not being able to compensate nodes for the validation costs, sadly.
863 2014-02-19 09:48:29 <antephialtic> heh, maybe they can just use brainfuck as the scripting language
864 2014-02-19 09:48:55 <wumpus> or VBA :p
865 2014-02-19 09:49:31 <gmaxwell> In any case, it's 180 degrees away from what I think prudent development in that space is. The first is that the realization that script isn'tâ and shoudln't beâ execution itself. Rather script is a transcript of successful execution the TX author performed, and the script+signature should just be a witness proving that the script was executed faithfully and accepted.
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867 2014-02-19 09:49:56 <antephialtic> zkSnark scripts?
868 2014-02-19 09:49:56 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hey, do me a favor
869 2014-02-19 09:50:03 <gmaxwell> Once you've adopted this mental model things like merkelized ASTâ where you only disclose the branches in the script you actually tookâ start making obvious sense.
870 2014-02-19 09:50:12 MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
871 2014-02-19 09:50:19 <Diablo-D3> explain to me this tx malleability problem
872 2014-02-19 09:50:37 <gmaxwell> And thenâ yea, you can then apply moon-math and start talking about succinct witnesses for execution, and scripts that execute in zero-knoweldge.
873 2014-02-19 09:50:46 MoALTz__ has joined
874 2014-02-19 09:50:49 Elio19 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
875 2014-02-19 09:50:56 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: go get andy's doc.
876 2014-02-19 09:51:00 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: url?
877 2014-02-19 09:51:07 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: grep andytoshi \#bitcoin.log | grep http
878 2014-02-19 09:51:20 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: because this sounds like something I was trying to figure out like two years ago but couldnt make it work
879 2014-02-19 09:51:25 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I dont log irc
880 2014-02-19 09:51:26 <antephialtic> Diablo-D3: this is a good primer http://www.righto.com/2014/02/bitcoin-transaction-malleability.html
881 2014-02-19 09:51:49 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/malleability-faq.pdf
882 2014-02-19 09:52:05 <Diablo-D3> heh
883 2014-02-19 09:52:10 <Diablo-D3> so it IS the problem I was looking at
884 2014-02-19 09:52:19 <Diablo-D3> I should have kept working at it =/
885 2014-02-19 09:52:21 <gmaxwell> antephialtic: even just the merkelized AST stuff can have big space efficiency and privacy advantages.
886 2014-02-19 09:52:55 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: btw, isnt the solution to just not allow garbage in tx?
887 2014-02-19 09:52:57 jtimon has joined
888 2014-02-19 09:53:09 <stonecoldpat> what is this 'AST stuff'?
889 2014-02-19 09:53:20 <jcorgan> what could possibly go wrong?
890 2014-02-19 09:53:25 <Diablo-D3> stonecoldpat: abstract syntax tree
891 2014-02-19 09:53:31 <stonecoldpat> ah ok
892 2014-02-19 09:53:34 Elio19 has joined
893 2014-02-19 09:53:44 <gmaxwell> antephialtic: e.g. if you can redeem a coin with either key1 or key2+key3+key4+key5 why should your key1 spends disclose and extra 128 bytes of information about those other keys?
894 2014-02-19 09:54:54 <uiop> gmaxwell, wumpus: OP_EVAL would turing complete script
895 2014-02-19 09:55:28 <wumpus> well there were very strict limits proposed on OP_EVAL
896 2014-02-19 09:55:30 <antephialtic> gmaxwell: makes sense.
897 2014-02-19 09:56:08 <wumpus> but it does complicate things a lot, I'm happy that an alternative was chosen
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900 2014-02-19 09:59:18 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: btw, the proposed fix is to sign an ast instead of the actual tx?
901 2014-02-19 09:59:51 Raziel has joined
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903 2014-02-19 09:59:57 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: eh, no, that train of thought has nothing to do with the malleability issue
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906 2014-02-19 10:00:55 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: proposed BIP for dealing with malleability: https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691
907 2014-02-19 10:01:17 <Diablo-D3> k
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918 2014-02-19 10:11:15 <gmaxwell> uiop: well OP_EVAL was proposed as depth limited a depth of ~3.
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921 2014-02-19 10:12:04 <gmaxwell> uiop: while no memory limited (or recursion limited) machine meets the most agressive definition, 3 is pretty darn limited.
922 2014-02-19 10:12:37 <gmaxwell> uiop: in any case, it would have greatly complicated static analysis.
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924 2014-02-19 10:13:33 <gmaxwell> OTOH, perhaps people wouldn't be talking about pouring millions in costs on etherum now. :-/ ... really stuff in script is horribly underutilized as is, I love that functionality more than most things in bitcoin, but the reality is that it just is not used.
925 2014-02-19 10:14:02 <gmaxwell> though some uses are killed by little niggles, (uh like malleability making nlocked refunds really hard)
926 2014-02-19 10:14:30 <antephialtic> I think script was just a way for satoshi to nerd snipe a bunch of smart people to work on his project
927 2014-02-19 10:14:43 <antephialtic> (kidding, of course)
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929 2014-02-19 10:14:59 <gmaxwell> antephialtic: you'd think, but there are really only a few people who have explored interesting things with script.
930 2014-02-19 10:15:00 <wumpus> gmaxwell: imo it just becomes too complex for mortals, too many little details, too many things that can be slightly-wrong causing DOS or even money loss at worst
931 2014-02-19 10:15:04 <stonecoldpat> their just a bit complicated, and the wiki does not do it any favours on trying to explain how they work
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935 2014-02-19 10:15:36 <gmaxwell> At least at one point last year I was estimating that something like >90% of all 'fancy' script use was myself an petertodd.
936 2014-02-19 10:16:01 <antephialtic> stonecoldpat: I always liked this document as an intro http://bitcoinhistory.net/Technical_Papers/ProgrammingBitcoinTransactionScripts.pdf
937 2014-02-19 10:16:20 <wumpus> indeed, even this trivial malleability issue that shouldn't be really an issue if you do things the right way caused big havoc
938 2014-02-19 10:16:36 <stonecoldpat> antephialtic: i have not seen that, will give it a read
939 2014-02-19 10:17:31 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yes, though some better tools would help. E.g. you should be able to enter in a list of keys and draw something like a karnaugh map, and get a script out.
940 2014-02-19 10:17:32 <wumpus> maybe in 20 years we can try a bitcoin with more advanced scripting, right now the world just isn't ready for it
941 2014-02-19 10:17:40 <antephialtic> gmaxwell: if you count multisig, one of the blackmarkets has been using them extensively
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943 2014-02-19 10:18:21 <wumpus> gmaxwell: sure, better tools would help, but it takes a long time for good tools to appear, and in the meantime people will just... do something
944 2014-02-19 10:18:28 <gmaxwell> antephialtic: yea, though if we weren't using braindamaged sigining, basic threshold signatures wouldn't even need script.
945 2014-02-19 10:19:43 <gmaxwell> (with schnorr you can do N of N with no special key generation and N of M with a two round multiparty key generation, and the signatures are indistinguishable from a regular single party signature)
946 2014-02-19 10:20:44 gjs278 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
947 2014-02-19 10:21:07 <gmaxwell> antephialtic: in any case, you can do a whole bunch of stuff with a very small amount.
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949 2014-02-19 10:21:10 <antephialtic> gmaxwell: haven't heard of schnorr signatures before.
950 2014-02-19 10:21:17 <antephialtic> wiki time :)
951 2014-02-19 10:21:31 <gmaxwell> Schnorr predated DSA. DSA was the NSA's kludge to avoid the schnorr patents.
952 2014-02-19 10:21:44 <gmaxwell> The schnorr patents expired like ... last year.
953 2014-02-19 10:21:59 <stonecoldpat> antephialtic: way i remember them is by thinking of controlling nuclear weapons, usa needed 2/3 people to activiate the warhead (maybe it was russia?)
954 2014-02-19 10:22:01 gjs278 has joined
955 2014-02-19 10:22:26 <gmaxwell> In any case, with nothing more than N of M threshold signatures and hashlocking you can do an enormous number of things.
956 2014-02-19 10:22:53 <antephialtic> many of the NSA cryptosystems I've looked at seem to be lacking in elegance
957 2014-02-19 10:23:22 <stonecoldpat> what is a hash lock?
958 2014-02-19 10:23:47 <gmaxwell> stonecoldpat: requiring a preimage of a hash to spend a coin.
959 2014-02-19 10:24:21 <antephialtic> gmaxwell: wow that is much simpler than DSA
960 2014-02-19 10:24:24 <gmaxwell> which sounds like a totally boring and not very useful functionality.
961 2014-02-19 10:24:30 <stonecoldpat> gmaxwell: so essentially its password-based spending?
962 2014-02-19 10:24:42 <stonecoldpat> i like that alot, didnt think it was possible
963 2014-02-19 10:24:45 <Logicwax> [02:13] <gmaxwell> though some uses are killed by little niggles, (uh like malleability making nlocked refunds really hard)
964 2014-02-19 10:24:52 <Logicwax> gmaxwell: how does that kill nlocked refunds?
965 2014-02-19 10:25:13 <Logicwax> because they refer to the prev TX via TXID?
966 2014-02-19 10:25:20 <gmaxwell> stonecoldpat: Yes. And it's actually insanely powerful. E.g. some protocols I've proposed that are based on hashlocks: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Zero_Knowledge_Contingent_Payment and https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=321228.0
967 2014-02-19 10:25:24 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: yep.
968 2014-02-19 10:25:39 <Logicwax> ouch. didnt think about that. that.....is unfortunate
969 2014-02-19 10:25:44 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: there is a way around it, mostly.
970 2014-02-19 10:26:20 <gmaxwell> You can effectively blind it so that the other party can't reconize the txn that their refund is a refund for... so they'd have to try to mutate all transactions and not just the one they want to kill the refund for.
971 2014-02-19 10:26:28 <gmaxwell> But that complicates the protocols and its not a complete fix.
972 2014-02-19 10:27:05 <gmaxwell> you can also have the other party put their own funds into the escrow instead of or in addition to a refund, but again, complicates things and isn't a complete replacement.
973 2014-02-19 10:27:55 <Logicwax> hrmm i see
974 2014-02-19 10:28:00 <antephialtic> gmaxwell: is there anything preventing one from using an elliptic curve over a prime field as the underlying group for schnorr?
975 2014-02-19 10:28:05 <gmaxwell> antephialtic: yea, schnorr is nice. Strong security proofs, threshold signatures, blindsigning is straightforward...
976 2014-02-19 10:28:39 <gmaxwell> antephialtic: nope, works fine, thats what eddsa (the ed25519 stuff) really is, (well they use a curve with cofactor 8).
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978 2014-02-19 10:30:05 <antephialtic> gmaxwell: I sure do love me some djb crypto
979 2014-02-19 10:31:45 <gmaxwell> Well, I'm less impressed than I used to be. Not fond of the cofactor in ed255519, nor the crazy thing they do to make it constant time (require the most significant bit of the private key to be 1, which breaks BIP32 like derivation)... doing all the computation in the FPU registers is a bit unholy and at the end of the day its basically within a factor of 2 of a well optimized secp256k1 implementation ::meh:: :P In any case, schnorr ...
980 2014-02-19 10:31:51 <gmaxwell> ... signatures are <3.
981 2014-02-19 10:32:06 <bitpar> How come for sendmany it says, "amounts are double-precision floating point numbers", while sendfrom says, "<amount> is a real and is rounded to the nearest 0.00000001"? Both read the value as int64 nAmount = AmountFromValue() and bitcoinrpc.cpp contains if (strMethod == "sendmany" && n > 2) ConvertTo<boost::int64_t>(params[2]);
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984 2014-02-19 10:33:19 <gmaxwell> bitpar: JSON numbers are "double-precision floating point numbers" all bitcoin values are converted to integer base units (1e-8 BTC) internally, and a double precision number can exactly represent all of these values.
985 2014-02-19 10:33:28 <Logicwax> to save the usefuleness of nlocked TXs from meow-ability, maybe thats a good reason to argue nTX to make it into the protocol (aside from zeroconf change problems)
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989 2014-02-19 10:35:01 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: lol. No. Mallablity is a feature tooâ all the other sighash flags result in inherent mallability. Different transactions having the same hash would be devastating in its own ways.
990 2014-02-19 10:35:35 <gmaxwell> Logicwax: we have a plan we've been executing for years to make it possiblity to make (at the senders option) mallability free txn, the refunds case being a primary motivator for doing that.
991 2014-02-19 10:37:18 <gmaxwell> There have been times when I've wanted the input txid:vout omitted from the signature... but that would be an easily abused functionality.
992 2014-02-19 10:37:26 Tykling has joined
993 2014-02-19 10:37:35 <gmaxwell> (one reason is that it would allow you to make provably timelocked funds)
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995 2014-02-19 10:38:05 <bitpar> I understand that doubles can represent all BTC values. It just seemed odd that sendfrom and sendmany would use different descriptions of what amount is.
996 2014-02-19 10:38:20 <gmaxwell> e.g. you compute the nlocktimed release transaction, set the signature to a nothing up my sleeve number, back compute the public key, and use that as the output in the the transaction paying into the lock.
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998 2014-02-19 10:38:38 <gmaxwell> bitpar: submit documentation fixing pull please. :)
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1003 2014-02-19 10:41:04 <sipa> that convert to int64 is strange
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1005 2014-02-19 10:42:10 <bitpar> Ok, I haven't contributed before. I can change the description of sendmany to match.
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1008 2014-02-19 10:44:04 <antephialtic> gmaxwell: do schnorr signatures still exhibit malleability?
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1010 2014-02-19 10:46:03 <gmaxwell> antephialtic: not the schnorr part itselfâ andytoshi has created a proof that they are not which has preliminary convinced me. Though most of our malleability comes from the bitcoin hybrid cryptosystem, not DSA itself (only one bit comes from DSA as far as we currently know)
1011 2014-02-19 10:47:02 <maaku> yeah, but everything else is within our control to lock down on...
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1014 2014-02-19 10:48:39 <sipa> the signatures are too :)
1015 2014-02-19 10:48:49 <antephialtic> cool. Will do more reading on these later this week. Anyways, I'm off to sleep. goodnight everyone.
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1019 2014-02-19 10:49:19 <maaku> sipa: I mean the (potential, unknown) intrinsic ECDSA malleability
1020 2014-02-19 10:49:51 <maaku> e.g. substituting k values without the private key, or whatever
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1022 2014-02-19 10:51:07 <gmaxwell> maaku: they seem unlikely to me, at least. I do think we'll eventually get a proof that there are no more.
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1026 2014-02-19 10:51:51 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: are Schnorr keys comparable in size to RSA ones for equivalent security?
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1028 2014-02-19 10:52:57 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: when we talk about schnorr around here we're talking about Ec Schnorr... which could use the same group as we use for DSA in bitcoin.
1029 2014-02-19 10:53:28 <gmaxwell> Integer schnorr is like DSA... RSA sized keys.
1030 2014-02-19 10:54:00 <jcorgan> that's what i was thinking, but didn't realize you were referring to an EC version of Schnorr
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1042 2014-02-19 11:11:17 <tlrobinson> anyone care to critique my layman's explanation of malleability? http://blog.tlrobinson.net/preview/Fgq9l782N1AxxWrrrVzU/
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1045 2014-02-19 11:16:23 <sipa> tlrobinson: it likely does not require a hard fork to make malleability of common transaction types impossible
1046 2014-02-19 11:16:44 <sipa> though with a hard fork, more complete solutions are possible
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1050 2014-02-19 11:19:30 <tlrobinson> ok thanks
1051 2014-02-19 11:21:47 <sipa> also, some forms of malleability are intentional and a feature required for complex transaction types
1052 2014-02-19 11:22:20 <sipa> so it's inevitable that some software will need to be able to deal with it properly
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1054 2014-02-19 11:24:02 <sipa> however, that's very similar to dealing with double spends (from the poibt of view of your wallet, a mutated transaction is just a new transaction that spends the same funds... however you didn't create it)
1055 2014-02-19 11:25:35 <stonecoldpat> @gmaxwell: hash lock - is that what is used for the zero coin idea? you release coin and reclaim it using a password, and then its no longer linkable?
1056 2014-02-19 11:25:37 <tlrobinson> that's from the recipient's perspective, whereas gox's issue is from the sender's perspective
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1058 2014-02-19 11:27:01 <sipa> tlrobinson: agree
1059 2014-02-19 11:27:22 <sipa> Persopolis: don't pm me with basic questions please
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1064 2014-02-19 11:29:15 <sipa> Persopolis: please ask here or in another channel
1065 2014-02-19 11:29:31 <Persopolis> right - ok - sorry!
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1071 2014-02-19 11:34:31 <Persopolis> I asked in a PM as it is nooby question and didn't wana occupy the channel - but sorry I should have asked if you were willing to PM first
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1073 2014-02-19 11:36:25 <sipa> stop talking about asking your question and just ask it :)
1074 2014-02-19 11:37:29 <Persopolis> lol - I didn't understand what is being modified to cause a change to the transaction hash, but yet without invalidating it
1075 2014-02-19 11:38:29 <sipa> well the transaction hash covers everything including the signatures
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1079 2014-02-19 11:38:58 <justanotheruser> So on the bitcoin.it scripts page it lists inputs for an opcode (usually a certain number of bytes or expressions). Is there any reason anyone would want to override this and have more or less inputs...
1080 2014-02-19 11:39:37 <justanotheruser> ...than it specifies? (I'm specifically asking how well the stack based language would translate to a functional lisp like language)
1081 2014-02-19 11:39:54 <sipa> the signature however doesn't sign the full transaction, but only part of it (in particular, not the signatures thenselves, as you can't know them in advance)
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1083 2014-02-19 11:40:20 <sipa> Persopolis: so all you need is replace the signature script with another valid signature script
1084 2014-02-19 11:40:40 <sipa> adding some dummy push or ignored byte suffices
1085 2014-02-19 11:41:12 <sipa> justanotheruser: i don't understand the question
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1087 2014-02-19 11:41:22 <justanotheruser> sipa: Sorry, I woke up 2 minutes ago
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1103 2014-02-19 11:56:25 <Persopolis> Sipa - thanks - I think I understand - the scriptSig is being modified (with a corresponding non critical change to the script), but the public key is being left intact?
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1105 2014-02-19 12:00:17 <wumpus> the signature is being left intact* just the encoding of it is reduntand and that leaves some wiggling room
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1112 2014-02-19 12:06:47 <wallet42> Luke-Jr: whats a stale block?
1113 2014-02-19 12:07:00 <wallet42> in comparason to a orphan?
1114 2014-02-19 12:07:23 <wallet42> nevermind found the answer on stackexchange
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1116 2014-02-19 12:08:04 <wallet42> https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5859/what-are-orphaned-and-stale-blocks
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1118 2014-02-19 12:09:21 <wallet42> so am i correct if i assume blk* contains only the main chain in the correct order?
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1120 2014-02-19 12:10:03 <wumpus> wallet42: yes
1121 2014-02-19 12:11:05 <wumpus> well the correct order at least, and it won't contain orphans
1122 2014-02-19 12:11:29 <wumpus> it may contain other forks than the main chain
1123 2014-02-19 12:11:51 <wumpus> but everything is connected
1124 2014-02-19 12:11:53 <wallet42> im not sure if i follow...
1125 2014-02-19 12:12:33 <wallet42> blockchain.info has a page where they show orphans, but these are only stored by them and does not necessary shows all ever produced (+orphans) blocks since it is not connected to ever node on the network
1126 2014-02-19 12:12:56 <wallet42> https://blockchain.info/orphaned-blocks
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1129 2014-02-19 12:19:06 <tjopper> I see typo´s in this new blockchain page, were do I report those
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1131 2014-02-19 12:20:52 <sipa> wallet42: that refers to stale blocks
1132 2014-02-19 12:21:36 <wallet42> an "orphan" does not have parents, at least in git
1133 2014-02-19 12:21:37 <sipa> wallet42: orphan blocks are simply blocks without parent (which almost nobody talks about, and everyone uses the word orphan blocks to refer to blocks that cause orphaned coinbase transactions)
1134 2014-02-19 12:21:44 <wumpus> the client doesn't know whether it is on the 'main chain', it only has a local perspective of the best chain known to it at the time and considers that the main chain... but older forks can overtake the current best chain, in which case the blocks from the 'other fork' will already be written to the blkXXXX files
1135 2014-02-19 12:21:47 <wallet42> so ophan does not make sense in blocks
1136 2014-02-19 12:21:57 <sipa> wallet42: it does
1137 2014-02-19 12:22:01 <wallet42> only in transactions if the parent tx becomes invalid
1138 2014-02-19 12:22:15 <sipa> wallet42: a node can receive a block for which the predecessor isn't know
1139 2014-02-19 12:22:27 <sipa> this is what the bitcoind source code calls orphan blocks
1140 2014-02-19 12:22:35 <wallet42> oh okay
1141 2014-02-19 12:22:38 <sipa> and those are not stored on disk, but kept in memory for a short time
1142 2014-02-19 12:22:48 <wallet42> during the downloading, there are orphaned blocks for instance
1143 2014-02-19 12:22:50 <sipa> while we ask for the missing parrent
1144 2014-02-19 12:23:01 <wallet42> so what i really mean is stale blocks
1145 2014-02-19 12:23:16 <wallet42> the terminology orphan comes from coinbase tx,
1146 2014-02-19 12:23:29 <wallet42> which are invalid since not on the main chain
1147 2014-02-19 12:23:34 <wallet42> okay i start to understand
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1149 2014-02-19 12:24:47 <wallet42> so blk** contains stale blocks?
1150 2014-02-19 12:24:48 <sipa> so the blocks in the block files are guaranteed to be in order (for now, once we have parallel block download that won't be the case anymore)
1151 2014-02-19 12:24:49 <wumpus> if you want a linear blocks file get the bootstrap.dat torrent (or use linearize.py on your own files)
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1154 2014-02-19 12:29:29 <wallet42> what does bitcoind do if i tell you i have a block for a height you already have
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1156 2014-02-19 12:29:52 <wallet42> a different one ofc i mean
1157 2014-02-19 12:30:10 <stonecoldpat> wallet42: if there is a block chain bigger than the one you provide, then it gets ignored
1158 2014-02-19 12:30:28 <stonecoldpat> wallet42: so if the current blockchain is at height 100, and the block you provide is at height 99, then yours does not get accepted
1159 2014-02-19 12:30:48 <sipa> wallet42: we simply fetch all blocks you announce
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1161 2014-02-19 12:30:53 <stonecoldpat> wallet42: if their both at the same height, i think its just what it sees first?
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1163 2014-02-19 12:31:01 <sipa> wallet42: and the largest valid chain is considered the active one
1164 2014-02-19 12:31:09 <sipa> and if there are several, the one we saw firs
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1166 2014-02-19 12:31:23 <wallet42> so it gets downloaded but ignored
1167 2014-02-19 12:31:45 <sipa> if it's not an orphan it will get stored on disk
1168 2014-02-19 12:32:04 <wallet42> if i then provide block 99', 100', 101' it also gets loaded and then the reorg is done
1169 2014-02-19 12:33:25 <wallet42> since the client loads and stores all valid blocks, the flooding of nodes with easy to calculate blocks is prevented with the checkpoint function
1170 2014-02-19 12:33:32 <wallet42> still correct/
1171 2014-02-19 12:33:35 <wallet42> ?
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1173 2014-02-19 12:34:12 <stonecoldpat> well for the most part, blocks arent really easy to calculate
1174 2014-02-19 12:35:00 <wallet42> this is true for nowadays blocks
1175 2014-02-19 12:35:26 <wallet42> but for blocks at height < 10'000 its still easy with an ASIC
1176 2014-02-19 12:35:55 <wallet42> put this is prevented by the checkpoints to my understanding
1177 2014-02-19 12:36:05 <wallet42> s/put/but/
1178 2014-02-19 12:36:16 <stonecoldpat> pretty much, as they would be considered an orphan block
1179 2014-02-19 12:36:43 <wallet42> thx for all clarification
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1200 2014-02-19 13:09:47 <sipa> stonecoldpat: orphan? no
1201 2014-02-19 13:09:58 <sipa> stonecoldpat: they just wouldn't be considered active
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1237 2014-02-19 13:51:28 <shaileshg> what is the concept of account
1238 2014-02-19 13:51:39 <sipa> ignore it
1239 2014-02-19 13:51:44 <wallet42> bitcoind has "virtual" accounts
1240 2014-02-19 13:51:52 <sipa> they're bean counters inside a wallet
1241 2014-02-19 13:51:58 <sipa> but don't correspond to actual coins
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1243 2014-02-19 13:52:16 <wallet42> you can use "move" rpc to change balances at will
1244 2014-02-19 13:53:04 <shaileshg> wallet42: change balances between addresses? in same wallet / account?
1245 2014-02-19 13:53:19 <wallet42> shaileshg: account are virtual
1246 2014-02-19 13:53:33 <sipa> shaileshg: addresses don't have balances (only the wallet as a whole has)
1247 2014-02-19 13:53:44 <sipa> shaileshg: and this is about account balances, which are entirely virtual
1248 2014-02-19 13:53:46 <wallet42> shailshg: you can have an empty wallet and create debit/credit
1249 2014-02-19 13:53:48 <sipa> they can go negative even
1250 2014-02-19 13:54:08 <bitpar> Should you leave users' balances in "" or create a users account?
1251 2014-02-19 13:54:19 <wallet42> afaik all balances on all accounts summed up (debit/credit) equals the amount of actual bitcoin in the wallet
1252 2014-02-19 13:54:28 sipa has left ()
1253 2014-02-19 13:54:33 <shaileshg> sipa: okay.. so account have account balances which are entirely virtual?
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1255 2014-02-19 13:55:13 <shaileshg> wallet42: i also think so.. makes sense.. sipa: could you confirm?
1256 2014-02-19 13:55:29 <wallet42> shailshg: yes, you can create a new wallet.dat, then having 0 btc ever recieved you can make move "fromaccount" "toaccount" amount
1257 2014-02-19 13:55:34 <shaileshg> wallet = sum(credit / debit across all addresses)
1258 2014-02-19 13:55:34 <wallet42> move 1 2 10
1259 2014-02-19 13:56:16 <wallet42> now you have listaccounts: { "": 0.000, "1": -10, "2": +10}
1260 2014-02-19 13:57:04 <shaileshg> wallet42: is there any mapping between account and addresses or account and wallet at all?
1261 2014-02-19 13:57:40 <wallet42> im not entirly familiar with the internals, but afaik you can use "setaccount" to tie an address to an virtual account
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1263 2014-02-19 13:57:56 <wallet42> if this address recieves bitcoin, it gets also creditet to the virtual account
1264 2014-02-19 13:58:08 <shaileshg> okay..
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1266 2014-02-19 13:58:36 <wallet42> but again, im not 100% sure on the internals, eg. is the address tieing only for future payments or also past ones etc...
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1268 2014-02-19 13:59:24 <shaileshg> hmm
1269 2014-02-19 13:59:41 <wallet42> sipa: when was the account system implemented? bitcoind v?
1270 2014-02-19 13:59:51 <shaileshg> wallet42: sipa has left
1271 2014-02-19 14:00:27 <bitpar> 0.3.18
1272 2014-02-19 14:02:43 <wallet42> btw.. is there a ticket to "group" rpc methods? it becomes quite a lot and it may confuse new devs. eg. wallet functions, accounting methods, rawtx stuff, mining related stuff
1273 2014-02-19 14:03:21 <wallet42> group for the "help" rpc i mean
1274 2014-02-19 14:03:40 agricocb has joined
1275 2014-02-19 14:04:24 <kjj> a while back I wrote a patch to normalize all of the names, but it wasn't picked up
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1278 2014-02-19 14:05:26 <kjj> oh, for the help message? Oddly enough, I think that is harder
1279 2014-02-19 14:06:03 <kjj> if I recall correctly, the list of RPC commands is made by pulling a line out of each function dispatcher, and then sorting them into alphabetical order
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1283 2014-02-19 14:08:05 <wumpus> grouping rpcs would make sense
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1285 2014-02-19 14:08:43 <wumpus> I guess it would be as easy as adding a 'category' field to the CRPCCommand structure
1286 2014-02-19 14:08:59 <wumpus> then when help is called, group them by that
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1289 2014-02-19 14:10:20 <kjj> that table blows already. at some point (which may not be now) it becomes "cleaner" to return the category by reference
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1293 2014-02-19 14:12:49 <wumpus> well you could also make a CRPCCommand structure per category
1294 2014-02-19 14:12:57 <wumpus> I mean, a table per category
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1296 2014-02-19 14:13:42 <wumpus> then add all the tables at the beginning; I did that once when I was trying to modularize bitcoind
1297 2014-02-19 14:14:00 <wumpus> (ie, the wallet would register its own table of RPC commands)
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1317 2014-02-19 14:31:39 <jgarzik> wumpus, hmmm, interesting thought
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1319 2014-02-19 14:31:48 <jgarzik> wumpus, more complex, but more modular
1320 2014-02-19 14:32:19 <jgarzik> wumpus, (I'm originally responsible for CRPCCommand table, and am a big fan of table-driven code)
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1324 2014-02-19 14:35:53 <wumpus> jgarzik: it would be only marginally more complex; there would be a CRPCTable::Register(const CRPCCommand vRPCCommands*, string categoryName) method to register a new category and its functions (and possibly a symmetric function to unregister, though, as long as there is no online loading/unloading of modules that's not really needed)
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1328 2014-02-19 14:38:07 <jgarzik> wumpus, agreed, but "more complex" also includes supporting and debugging. I've dealt with plug-in RPC systems before, and you'd be surprised where odd behavior crops up. Saw one bug in an early cloud RPC service where -some- of its RPCs would disappear at runtime, at unexpected moments
1329 2014-02-19 14:38:11 <jgarzik> other RPCs worked just fine
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1331 2014-02-19 14:38:56 <jgarzik> it was a bug in an RPC plugin registration routine, that was not multi-thread safe, in a system where plugins come and go at runtime
1332 2014-02-19 14:39:14 <wumpus> that's mostly a problem if you support loading/unloading modules at runtime, not something I'd recommend for bitcoind
1333 2014-02-19 14:39:29 <jgarzik> wumpus, plug-in services are coming...
1334 2014-02-19 14:39:59 <wumpus> yes, but like with apache those could be specified at startup time
1335 2014-02-19 14:40:14 <jgarzik> wumpus, For example, consider bitcoind integration with P2SH safe addresses, where you auth with a service using 2FA, to get it to sign one key of a multisig: https://www.belshe.com/2013/12/15/p2sh-safe-addresses/
1336 2014-02-19 14:41:22 <jgarzik> bitcoind would be interacting with a specific service that the user has a customer relationship with, over a long period of time. Though granted this is perhaps a bad example, strictly speaking, of a "plugin" but there is some persistence of this relationship in the bitcoin client over time.
1337 2014-02-19 14:42:04 <jgarzik> i.e. sending bitcoins would involve building and signing a local multisig + contacting this service
1338 2014-02-19 14:42:06 <wumpus> agreed, it'd be great to support plugins, but I see no point in loading and unloading modules at runtime for bitcoind... we require restarting right now to change the configuration anyway
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1341 2014-02-19 14:42:37 <jgarzik> Never say never, as an engineer :)
1342 2014-02-19 14:43:00 <jgarzik> Hive or another one of those new wallets already supports explicit third party plugins
1343 2014-02-19 14:43:00 <Inception> Any way to track where donations to 1BTCorgHwCg6u2YSAWKgS17qUad6kHmtQW go? For what kind of work, i mean. I want to donate to specific developements, on a monthly basis
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1345 2014-02-19 14:43:05 <wumpus> well then indeed you got your "more complex"
1346 2014-02-19 14:43:12 <wumpus> to me, it's not worth the headache
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1349 2014-02-19 14:44:23 <wumpus> unless "plugin" is something that runs in a different process and communicates over a pipe, then it's easier
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1357 2014-02-19 14:47:43 <jgarzik> wumpus, honestly that is probably ideal, from a sandboxing perspective
1358 2014-02-19 14:47:50 <jgarzik> wumpus, and we already support that execution model
1359 2014-02-19 14:48:14 <jgarzik> I wouldn't want third party code mucking about in my wallet's address space
1360 2014-02-19 14:48:36 <wumpus> which is indeed a good idea, but that has drifted quite far from 'categorize RPCs' :)
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1363 2014-02-19 14:49:59 <wumpus> how do we support that execution model?
1364 2014-02-19 14:51:17 <jgarzik> wumpus, we already support executing external processes, and boost can do the piping with just a little more work. Yes, drifting quite a bit from original topic ;p
1365 2014-02-19 14:51:22 <jgarzik> -blocknotify etc.
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1367 2014-02-19 14:52:46 <wumpus> jgarzik: right; there is some support, but splitting off for example the wallet to a seperate process would be still quite involved (one'd have to define some interprocess protocol, at least)
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1376 2014-02-19 14:57:58 <kjj> pipes suck, by the way, at least if you need to support more than linux
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1378 2014-02-19 14:59:00 <CodeShark> [peer] <--(p2p protocol)--> [spv layer] <--(signals/slots for in-process, websockets for IPC)--> [applications]
1379 2014-02-19 14:59:05 <jgarzik> wumpus, agreed, though the proposal of simply going ahead and making it a separate program, that runs bitcoind under the hood and communicates via RPC with bitcoind, is moderately attractive after I did preliminary coding on the cross-platform fork+pipe solution
1380 2014-02-19 14:59:21 <jgarzik> wallet can talk RPC & P2P to local bitcoind
1381 2014-02-19 14:59:33 <jgarzik> there's your interprocess communication protocol :)
1382 2014-02-19 14:59:37 <wumpus> kjj: well it can go over tcp/ip as well of course
1383 2014-02-19 14:59:46 <wumpus> kjj: pipes is just the 'safe default'
1384 2014-02-19 14:59:54 <jgarzik> kjj, yes. been there, coded that
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1386 2014-02-19 15:00:19 <wumpus> jgarzik: good point
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1388 2014-02-19 15:00:23 <kjj> sockets seems like overkill
1389 2014-02-19 15:00:27 <jgarzik> kjj, Windows is not so bad, once you write ~200 LOC of shim code to make it work kinda like Unix [but with multiple process exec-like execution]
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1391 2014-02-19 15:00:38 <jgarzik> kjj, overkill... that is already implemented and tested and proven
1392 2014-02-19 15:00:44 <CodeShark> sockets -> maximum flexibility
1393 2014-02-19 15:00:48 <kjj> the only thing that saves them is that portable pipes is slightly worse
1394 2014-02-19 15:00:52 <wumpus> jgarzik: so you'd build a bitcoind without wallet, then use RPC to get management information and the P2P protocol for receiving transactions and such
1395 2014-02-19 15:00:59 <CodeShark> no need for super fast responsiveness - we're not taking a realtime 3D gaming engine
1396 2014-02-19 15:01:01 <jgarzik> wumpus, correct
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1398 2014-02-19 15:01:09 <CodeShark> *talking
1399 2014-02-19 15:01:16 <kjj> now, if we were carrying the RPC session over a protocol more like IMAP than like HTTP, we'd be golden
1400 2014-02-19 15:01:19 <jgarzik> wumpus, that came from a sipa sketch </credit>
1401 2014-02-19 15:01:30 <CodeShark> we should scrap HTTP - HTTP is not good for this kind of thing
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1403 2014-02-19 15:01:35 <wumpus> jgarzik: I prefer that to cooking up yet another protocol
1404 2014-02-19 15:01:37 <jgarzik> CodeShark, +1
1405 2014-02-19 15:01:42 <jgarzik> wumpus, +1
1406 2014-02-19 15:01:52 <wumpus> CodeShark: right, using something else than sockets (like shared memory) is good for a lot of headaches
1407 2014-02-19 15:02:23 <jgarzik> something with sane message boundaries and protobufs would be ideal </rambling off topic somewhat>
1408 2014-02-19 15:02:29 <wumpus> CodeShark: we used boost::interprocess with shared memory for a while for sending the bitcoin uris, talk about overkill :)
1409 2014-02-19 15:02:41 <CodeShark> I've never had a good experience using boost::interprocess
1410 2014-02-19 15:02:53 <wumpus> it crashed very uglyly (sp) on wine
1411 2014-02-19 15:03:10 <CodeShark> last time I tried using it, it basically didn't work
1412 2014-02-19 15:03:23 <jgarzik> localhost sockets are highly optimized... sockets are just fine for IPC
1413 2014-02-19 15:03:49 <wumpus> jgarzik: something based on protobuf for a RPC replacement?
1414 2014-02-19 15:04:07 <kjj> PB is almost never the answer
1415 2014-02-19 15:04:26 <kjj> I object to them much less here than in, ahem, that other place we are using them
1416 2014-02-19 15:04:44 <jgarzik> roll-your-own-marshalling-code-and-layers-over-http is so 2001
1417 2014-02-19 15:05:23 <jgarzik> wumpus, perhaps
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1419 2014-02-19 15:05:27 <kjj> I'd much prefer a TCP socket using a text protocol (8 bit, of course). again, like IMAP
1420 2014-02-19 15:05:49 <wumpus> well once the wallet stuff is moved to another process whatever is left in RPC is read-only or settings
1421 2014-02-19 15:06:12 <jgarzik> wumpus, yep
1422 2014-02-19 15:06:16 <wumpus> or read-only and the "stop" call
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1424 2014-02-19 15:06:52 <wumpus> though it'd make sense for the wallet process to also support JSON RPC at least in the beginning for compatibility
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1426 2014-02-19 15:07:11 <CodeShark> I advocate both a binary and text standard
1427 2014-02-19 15:07:25 <CodeShark> JSON for text, perhaps protobuf for binary
1428 2014-02-19 15:07:25 <wumpus> sounds like overkill
1429 2014-02-19 15:07:31 Necrathex has left ()
1430 2014-02-19 15:07:36 <wumpus> overdesign
1431 2014-02-19 15:07:38 <CodeShark> well, JSON makes writing clients more accessible to more people
1432 2014-02-19 15:07:43 <wumpus> just settle on something
1433 2014-02-19 15:07:44 _ImI_ has joined
1434 2014-02-19 15:07:44 <jgarzik> wumpus, agreed... though I think it's a discussion for perhaps another day. I should not have mentioned it :)
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1436 2014-02-19 15:07:58 <CodeShark> the main downside to JSON is inefficiency
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1438 2014-02-19 15:08:01 <jgarzik> we seem to like the "using sockets + RPC/P2P" wallet process split
1439 2014-02-19 15:08:17 <jgarzik> that's a useful broad consensus on which to move forward
1440 2014-02-19 15:08:19 <wumpus> everything else can be provided as a layer on top
1441 2014-02-19 15:08:21 <wumpus> jgarzik: yep
1442 2014-02-19 15:08:34 <kjj> I only advocate binary for the binary parts. The control messages should be ASCII
1443 2014-02-19 15:08:41 <wumpus> jgarzik: and then the wallet process as well as bitcoind would offer a JSONRPC interface to the outside in the beginning
1444 2014-02-19 15:09:03 <CodeShark> what I've been doing is running a separate process that does SPV and then implementing an API over that
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1446 2014-02-19 15:09:19 <CodeShark> so that bitcoind only does p2p stuff
1447 2014-02-19 15:09:41 c0rw1n has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1448 2014-02-19 15:09:41 <CodeShark> but it could be useful to add a higher level API to bitcoind
1449 2014-02-19 15:09:45 <wumpus> yes, bitcoind would do only p2p stuff
1450 2014-02-19 15:09:59 <jgarzik> an advantage of JSON in general is that of being a text protocol, with all that entails... easier to dump and debug. <historical note> Satoshi would have gone with protobufs, possibly , for binary stuff had he known about it at the time, he says </historical note>
1451 2014-02-19 15:10:47 <swulf--> in ECDSA, point-point multiplication isn't defined, correct?
1452 2014-02-19 15:10:57 <CodeShark> correct
1453 2014-02-19 15:11:05 <swulf--> codeshark: neither is point-integer addition?
1454 2014-02-19 15:11:09 <wumpus> JSON is pretty human readable too
1455 2014-02-19 15:11:15 <CodeShark> swulf-- correct
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1457 2014-02-19 15:11:21 <wumpus> not perfectly, but better than binary stuff :)
1458 2014-02-19 15:11:32 <wumpus> or... xml
1459 2014-02-19 15:11:38 <swulf--> CodeShark: then maybe i'm missing something re: stealth addresses. It suggests using Q'=(Q+c)G, but what is Q*G ?
1460 2014-02-19 15:11:43 <swulf--> or Q+c even
1461 2014-02-19 15:12:04 <kjj> Q and c are scalars
1462 2014-02-19 15:12:21 <swulf--> Uhmm.. Q=dG .. ?
1463 2014-02-19 15:12:22 <wumpus> with a binary protocol you need a dump and format function for everything, it's only worth it if something needs to be super-efficient
1464 2014-02-19 15:12:56 root_empire has joined
1465 2014-02-19 15:13:03 <wumpus> which is not the case for anything bitcoin, all the overhead is in the implementation not the serialization/deserialization of messages
1466 2014-02-19 15:13:10 <CodeShark> if we use a binary protocol, we should make sure to have a consistent means for converting to human-readable textual form
1467 2014-02-19 15:13:30 <wumpus> so if you have that, why not just use the human readable textual form in the first place :)
1468 2014-02-19 15:13:38 <swulf--> kjj: I mean, maybe I'm just still new to ECDSA, but I thought that Q=d*G was a point on the curve, not an integer
1469 2014-02-19 15:13:54 <CodeShark> human-readable textual form is less efficient computationally - but it's probably not a serious issue for our purposes here
1470 2014-02-19 15:14:00 <kjj> swulf--: EC math distributes, a bit
1471 2014-02-19 15:14:07 <wumpus> it's really not an issue here, premature optimization and such
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1473 2014-02-19 15:14:31 <swulf--> kjj: Q'=(Q+c)G=(dG+c)G=dG^2+cG ?
1474 2014-02-19 15:14:42 <swulf--> maybe I need to finish reading the mailing list thread...
1475 2014-02-19 15:14:48 <kjj> er, commutes. sorry
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1477 2014-02-19 15:15:29 <wumpus> jgarzik: would be interesting if satoshi would have used protobuf for the blockchain serialization though :p
1478 2014-02-19 15:15:43 <jgarzik> indeed
1479 2014-02-19 15:16:20 <kjj> I'm pretty sure thay is just shorthand for Q'=(d+c)G = Q*c
1480 2014-02-19 15:16:34 <jgarzik> two more thoughts re JSON-RPC: (1) there are various minor ugly spots that want cleaning up, which are minor breaks in JSON-RPC compatibility. Not worth doing right now, but worth doing before 1.0 and JSON-RPC API gets locked in stone.
1481 2014-02-19 15:16:35 <wumpus> that'd basically have amounted to embedding our own protobuf, because version changes could cause forks otherwise
1482 2014-02-19 15:16:41 <CodeShark> the other issue with human-readable textual form is uniqueness of representation and the need to have a unique representation for the sake of hashing
1483 2014-02-19 15:16:59 <swulf--> kjj: thanks. that makes much more sense:)
1484 2014-02-19 15:16:59 <jgarzik> (2) JSON and JSON-RPC are annoyingly malleable, and horrible when dealing with lots of binary data, or when you need to hash a document
1485 2014-02-19 15:17:09 <kjj> if you exclude a couple of rows, ASCII is fully distinct
1486 2014-02-19 15:17:14 <jgarzik> if you find yourself hex-encoding a lot of binary data
1487 2014-02-19 15:17:16 <jgarzik> that's a hint
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1490 2014-02-19 15:17:50 <wumpus> but how is malleability an issue at all for a wallet control protocol?
1491 2014-02-19 15:17:59 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1492 2014-02-19 15:18:00 <wumpus> isn't that just looking for issues? :P
1493 2014-02-19 15:18:00 <CodeShark> it'
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1495 2014-02-19 15:18:28 <wumpus> sure, to represent transactions and the blockchain you'd not want to use JSON
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1497 2014-02-19 15:19:22 <wumpus> it's certainly not that JSON is the ultimate solution for all data representation
1498 2014-02-19 15:19:27 <CodeShark> the malleability stuff can be addressed - it's always possible to format data into a canonical form, or even convert it into some binary representation for that
1499 2014-02-19 15:19:39 <CodeShark> the main disadvantage of JSON, the way I see it, is computational inefficiency
1500 2014-02-19 15:19:52 <CodeShark> but as we said before, probably not a major issue for our purposes
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1502 2014-02-19 15:20:44 <CodeShark> and the main advantage is very high accessibility for client app developers
1503 2014-02-19 15:21:00 <CodeShark> you don't need any special libraries
1504 2014-02-19 15:21:09 <wumpus> JSON is also very verbose compared to binary protocols, so if you need something very low-bandwidth it's a bad choice as well
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1506 2014-02-19 15:21:34 <CodeShark> yes, it is inefficient both in terms of bandwidth and parsing
1507 2014-02-19 15:21:38 <wumpus> but indeed accessability and discoverability is nice here
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1512 2014-02-19 15:23:06 <CodeShark> but we must consider typical throughput requirements
1513 2014-02-19 15:23:07 <wumpus> no need to compile any schemas upfront or for horribly complex introspection APIs
1514 2014-02-19 15:23:20 <jgarzik> wumpus, RE malleability -- people really do offer sha256(my JSON output) on the forums
1515 2014-02-19 15:23:38 <wumpus> jgarzik: ... ugh
1516 2014-02-19 15:23:40 <CodeShark> lol
1517 2014-02-19 15:24:00 Jasmin68k has joined
1518 2014-02-19 15:24:19 <CodeShark> I'm sure if we absolutely needed to we could come up with a canonical representation for any JSON
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1520 2014-02-19 15:24:36 <jgarzik> CodeShark, efforts are already underway at IETF
1521 2014-02-19 15:24:40 <kjj> any serious transaction will reduce the overhead of a purely ASCII protocol, even a verbose one like JSON, to a pittance
1522 2014-02-19 15:24:55 <wumpus> CodeShark: that may be just as frustrating as getting gitian builds to be deterministic :)
1523 2014-02-19 15:25:04 <wumpus> CodeShark: it's possible, but takes a loot of work
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1525 2014-02-19 15:25:08 <jgarzik> I know this because... gavinandresen had cause to research this, because it began to matter in some area / train of thought
1526 2014-02-19 15:25:19 <jgarzik> canonical JSON -> you're gonna have a bad time
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1528 2014-02-19 15:25:51 <gavinandresen> see the JOSE standard for canonical JSON work
1529 2014-02-19 15:26:39 <Luke-Jr> isn't it just removing spaces and giving a defined order to keys on objects? <.<
1530 2014-02-19 15:26:40 <jgarzik> determinism and malleability aren't the biggest issues. other JSON issues include: too-strict parsers, implementations that cast 'number' to a 32-bit integer, without offering 64-bit integer option, float-vs-decimal related bugs, UTF8 encoding annoyances
1531 2014-02-19 15:26:41 <wumpus> jgarzik: if it was any easier the payment protocol would likely have JSON instead
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1533 2014-02-19 15:27:25 <wumpus> 'number' -> 32-bit float even :)
1534 2014-02-19 15:27:33 <jgarzik> protobufs gives you real data types and reproducibility into any language (though yes, as CodeShark indicated, protobufs are not as tightly integrated into some languages as JSON)
1535 2014-02-19 15:27:53 <wumpus> oh yes the lack of a decimal type in JSON is pretty annoying
1536 2014-02-19 15:28:04 <wumpus> that's a good reason to not use it for a wallet protocol
1537 2014-02-19 15:28:10 <CodeShark> I've tended to resort to quoting all integers :)
1538 2014-02-19 15:28:11 <kjj> I'm telling you, the ideal protocol for this looks a hell of a lot like ASCII IMAP with 8-bit data where it makes sense.
1539 2014-02-19 15:28:23 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it is?
1540 2014-02-19 15:28:38 <wumpus> kjj: what number representations does it have?
1541 2014-02-19 15:28:42 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: what is?
1542 2014-02-19 15:28:44 <Luke-Jr> "decimal" is all about how you *handle* JSON anyway
1543 2014-02-19 15:28:44 <CodeShark> and I've also tended to resort to avoiding any floating point data in JSON
1544 2014-02-19 15:28:59 ircuser-2 has joined
1545 2014-02-19 15:29:01 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I can't imagine any reason a wallet protocol would use a decimal type
1546 2014-02-19 15:29:03 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: oh sure, but tell that to some crappy json parser in PHP :p
1547 2014-02-19 15:29:06 <kjj> wumpus: arbitrary precision integer and decimal types
1548 2014-02-19 15:29:15 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, For financial software, a standard that has poor support for number specificity should never be your first choice in data formats.
1549 2014-02-19 15:29:23 <jgarzik> sorry, square peg, round hole.
1550 2014-02-19 15:29:29 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: sure, I'm no fan of JSON
1551 2014-02-19 15:29:35 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: because decimal types should be used for montary amounts
1552 2014-02-19 15:29:50 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: int64_t works fine
1553 2014-02-19 15:30:06 <CodeShark> as long as you quote it :)
1554 2014-02-19 15:30:09 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: not if you want to represent the amount of dollars in a short while :P
1555 2014-02-19 15:30:25 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I thought we were talking wallets!
1556 2014-02-19 15:30:29 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: or Zimbabwean dollars at least :p
1557 2014-02-19 15:30:32 <Luke-Jr> <.<
1558 2014-02-19 15:30:42 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I'm talking montary amounts in general
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1560 2014-02-19 15:31:11 <CodeShark> many languages lack native support for decimal types
1561 2014-02-19 15:31:15 <wumpus> for bitcoin it happens that a uint64_t is enough forever, but that's certainly not true in general
1562 2014-02-19 15:31:37 <CodeShark> and floating point implementations in most languages are fraught with danger
1563 2014-02-19 15:31:38 <kjj> forever is too strong of a word
1564 2014-02-19 15:32:09 <Luke-Jr> 2-digit years were enough forever, until year 2000
1565 2014-02-19 15:32:11 <Luke-Jr> :D
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1570 2014-02-19 15:33:17 <wumpus> CodeShark: sure but if you write financial software responsibly you need some implementation of decimal types, that doesn't mean it's built into the programming language but there's should be plenty of libraries for it
1571 2014-02-19 15:33:22 buhbuh has joined
1572 2014-02-19 15:33:29 <CodeShark> sure, wumpus
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1575 2014-02-19 15:34:29 <CodeShark> unfortunately, many languages make it all too easy to get lazy
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1580 2014-02-19 15:35:25 <CodeShark> especially dynamically typed languages that get clever and try to interpret things automatically for you
1581 2014-02-19 15:35:26 <wumpus> CodeShark: yes that was my conclusion this morning when trying to detect overflows in integer arithmetic in C++ code, programming languages suck, let's go back to assembly :)
1582 2014-02-19 15:36:00 <CodeShark> heh, yeah
1583 2014-02-19 15:36:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hצצ
1584 2014-02-19 15:36:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm
1585 2014-02-19 15:36:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I wonder if anyone's made a Bitcoin net client
1586 2014-02-19 15:36:58 gpmnlxdw has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1587 2014-02-19 15:37:11 samesong has joined
1588 2014-02-19 15:37:15 <wumpus> but for something on-topic, it seems the 1Sochi 1Enjoy spam has stopped
1589 2014-02-19 15:37:16 alon_ has left ()
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1594 2014-02-19 15:39:51 <CodeShark> wumpus, speaking of detecting overflows: https://github.com/CodeShark/cmp/blob/master/src/cmp.c#L189
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1596 2014-02-19 15:40:51 <Persopolis> can anyone spare me a few minutes regarding raw block data synchronisation for an app I'm working on
1597 2014-02-19 15:41:52 <wumpus> CodeShark: isn't that sadness, having to implement carry/overflow on top even though CPUs have had flags for them for decennia
1598 2014-02-19 15:42:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Persopolis: Ask, if someone can and is willing to answer they will
1599 2014-02-19 15:42:32 <wumpus> CodeShark: if that doesn't prove the point that programming languages suck I don't know what will :)
1600 2014-02-19 15:42:38 aynstein has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1602 2014-02-19 15:43:31 <Persopolis> the app holds local cache of let say 1 or 2 months of worth of block data. I'm trying to workout a good way to implement gathering that data on first run of the application
1603 2014-02-19 15:43:49 <alon_> d
1604 2014-02-19 15:44:06 <Persopolis> thereafter it will be small syncs - but i'm trying to keep the app lightwight
1605 2014-02-19 15:44:09 <jgarzik> Persopolis, query the P2P network
1606 2014-02-19 15:45:07 <kjj> you can walk the chain back as far as you care to go using either protocol. p2p will do it in big leaps, and rpc will do it one block at a time
1607 2014-02-19 15:45:09 <alon_> Hi Everyone ! i have a newbie question ! I really like to contribute to the bitcoin project. I saw in the last release notes that they need more unit test guys. How can i start by helping them with unit tests ? Thanks !
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1609 2014-02-19 15:45:50 <Persopolis> what is the min code set to allow me to interact with p2p network
1610 2014-02-19 15:46:20 <kjj> if you aren't already talking p2p, you can do it quickly and easily using RPC.
1611 2014-02-19 15:46:26 <wumpus> alon_: unit tests are in src/test, are based on boost::test
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1614 2014-02-19 15:47:08 <kjj> so, RPC is probably your least-effort way to do this. switching to p2p will be more efficient, and if you plan to do more development, more educational
1615 2014-02-19 15:47:09 <wumpus> alon_: and they get compiled to src/test_bitcoin, which you can run to run all the test cases
1616 2014-02-19 15:48:27 <wumpus> (or alternatively, `make check`, but if you execute it directly you can pass flags such as for verbosity)
1617 2014-02-19 15:49:52 <Persopolis> kjj - thanks - could you point me in the right direction with rpc - For dev/test I've been messing with running bitcoind locally and doing json rpcs to it - but I don't quite get what I would point my queries to in the absence of a local bitcoind where the provider would be ok with things
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1621 2014-02-19 15:52:04 <alon_> wumpus thanks ! i meant, how can i start contributing unit code tests for the project ? just jump on it or there is something more organized ?
1622 2014-02-19 15:52:27 adam3us has joined
1623 2014-02-19 15:52:37 <kjj> Persopolis: getblockcount, getblockhash, getblock
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1627 2014-02-19 15:53:12 <Persopolis> yep I get that - that's what i'm doing now - but pointed at a local bitcoind instance
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1629 2014-02-19 15:53:24 <kjj> getblockcount will tell you how many blocks your RPC server has. getblockhash will return the hash of the block at a given height. getblock will fetch the block itself
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1631 2014-02-19 15:53:41 <wumpus> alon_: not really anything organized, just find some part of the code that lacks tests at the moment and write tests for it
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1633 2014-02-19 15:53:49 <kjj> ok, you need something that doesn't require a local bitcoind?
1634 2014-02-19 15:53:56 <Persopolis> correct :)
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1636 2014-02-19 15:54:42 <kjj> in that case, you are at the mercy of someone running a data feed somewhere
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1638 2014-02-19 15:55:00 <kjj> try http://blockchain.info/api/blockchain_api
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1640 2014-02-19 15:56:10 <Persopolis> no go - got the solution working using that to start with - then made a mistake in the code and got my IP banned - don't think blockchain would stand for the rapid volume of api calls
1641 2014-02-19 15:56:48 <Persopolis> so perhaps need to go down the p2p path?
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1645 2014-02-19 15:57:41 <wumpus> alon_: there are also scripts in qa/rpc-tests that test higher-level things
1646 2014-02-19 15:58:00 <Persopolis> and is there a way to query p2p without running full bitcoind stack
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1651 2014-02-19 16:02:48 <kjj> I'll let someone else take that one. I'm almost positive that people have already written stubs and libraries, but I don't have any experience with them
1652 2014-02-19 16:03:06 <Persopolis> np - thanks for assistance thusfar :)
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1666 2014-02-19 16:11:08 <wumpus> the only other way would be to use a centralized service
1667 2014-02-19 16:11:21 <wumpus> like, indeed, blockchain
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1669 2014-02-19 16:13:19 <stonecoldpat> Persopolis: can you not just store a block chain somewhere and query it? (I imagine u want to do the querying on a low-memory device)?
1670 2014-02-19 16:13:55 <Persopolis> yep - it gets locally stored - the question was about how to get the bulk data into local cache
1671 2014-02-19 16:13:59 <stonecoldpat> Persopolis: So if its on a raspberry pi - just query the data on your computer? i imagine thats possible
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1678 2014-02-19 16:15:40 <Persopolis> so I can do quite a few different things if I was the only user of the app - but looking for a solution that allows me to release the software to others
1679 2014-02-19 16:17:43 <stonecoldpat> this may use quite a bit of data - but you could just download parts of the chain you require? if you dont want it all stored locally
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1687 2014-02-19 16:20:25 <Persopolis> so my solution at the moment - running local bitcoind - json rpc get latest block, and walk backwards till date criteria met and store them in local repository - going forward want to have a lightweight app and bitcoind is too heavyweight - and so far I've failed to identify any centralised service I could query rather than have my own bitcoid instance
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1699 2014-02-19 16:29:09 <Persopolis> guessing a total rethink required :) perhaps have to provide my own centralised server for the app instances to interface to
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1702 2014-02-19 16:31:43 <stonecoldpat> from the sounds of it (and to my limited knowledge) it sounds like the best thing to do - as you cant query other nodes on the network i think
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1765 2014-02-19 17:34:08 <wumpus> looks like it are always /Satoshi:0.8.1/ nodes that relay the 1Sochi 1Enjoy spam transactions, newer nodes will (rightly) regard them as dust; also all the transactions are 25K+
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1767 2014-02-19 17:37:32 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it's been btcguild and slush mining them for the most part when they get mined.
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1772 2014-02-19 17:41:46 <chmod755> so 0.8.2 doesn't relay the spam transactions?
1773 2014-02-19 17:42:35 <wumpus> did any ever get mined? haven't checked everything, but I think I saw only incoming transactions for those addresses
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1779 2014-02-19 17:44:40 <wumpus> chmod755: either that or no one I'm connected to is running 0.8.2 :)
1780 2014-02-19 17:45:08 <chmod755> wumpus, you're not connected to me....
1781 2014-02-19 17:45:11 <chmod755> :P
1782 2014-02-19 17:45:37 <chmod755> maybe i should upgrade
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1792 2014-02-19 17:55:24 <wumpus> in the first phase of the 'attack' a lot of outputs (about 1000) were created to those addresses, those *were* mined, and in the second phase those outputs are used for satoshi flooding, those transactions are not mined, but spam the mempools of older versions of bitcoin
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1795 2014-02-19 17:55:47 <wumpus> and also show up in the transaction lists of multibit and android wallet
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1799 2014-02-19 17:58:02 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, some are getting mined. I went around nagging people to stop mining them.
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1805 2014-02-19 18:05:07 <wumpus> there are lots of different ones, I've already encountered 120, all with 749/750 outputs, and about 62333 unique output scriptPubKeys
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1836 2014-02-19 18:33:10 <wumpus> if there is change the change output is always the last (750th) one, and the change goes back to either one of the 1Sochi/1Enjoy addresses
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1848 2014-02-19 18:38:49 <evan82> Where's it put the core dumb on a segfault in linux?
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1858 2014-02-19 18:49:09 <Gnaf> gmaxwell: -zapwallettxes=2 did the job that -rescan and -reindex couldn't. It cleaned the unconfirmed (for days) BTC 0.27 transaction that was blocking my funds to be spent. The received 1Wh4bh transaction of BTC 0.005 was also blocking the funds . I better remove that one with pywallet before it blocks any furter transactions. Anyways, you saved my day (and BTC). Zapwallettxes should be in...
1859 2014-02-19 18:49:10 <Gnaf> ...the regular bitcoind commands if you ask me (but nobodys gonna). If you have a bitcoin donation address, pm me.
1860 2014-02-19 18:49:45 <wumpus> zapwallettxes is already merged IIRC
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1862 2014-02-19 18:51:19 <Gnaf> wumpus: a couple of days ago afaik
1863 2014-02-19 18:52:09 <wumpus> so it's already part of 'the normal bitcoind commands'
1864 2014-02-19 18:52:11 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't have expected recan and reindex do do anything. :) Glad you got fixed.
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1868 2014-02-19 18:54:01 <Gnaf> wumpus: but only in init.cpp, not in regular bitcoind help
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1870 2014-02-19 18:54:26 <gmaxwell> Gnaf: bitcoind help only lists rpcs it doesn't list startup options.
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1874 2014-02-19 18:55:09 <wumpus> well running it while bitcoind is running is not very safe, that's why it's a startup option
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1897 2014-02-19 19:07:10 <wumpus> in 2.5 hours, they have spammed about 90k unique addresses (some twice or more times), with a send rate of about 1 transaction per minute
1898 2014-02-19 19:08:06 <Emcy> is someone dusting every address in the chain?
1899 2014-02-19 19:08:28 <rusty78> Why would anyone spend the time to do that?
1900 2014-02-19 19:08:40 <wumpus> I haven't checked the distribution of target addresses throughout the block chain, but that's my guess Emcy
1901 2014-02-19 19:09:01 <wumpus> all the addresses that I've checked have been used before on the chain
1902 2014-02-19 19:09:24 <Emcy> rusty78 who knows. Perhaps trolling, perhaps dust with stolen coin to dissuade blacklists. Or something else
1903 2014-02-19 19:11:05 <rusty78> Is the dusting making the network confirmations move significantly slower atm?
1904 2014-02-19 19:11:26 <Emcy> blockrate is unaffected
1905 2014-02-19 19:11:27 <wumpus> well they never confirm, so dissuading blacklists is probably not the reason
1906 2014-02-19 19:11:39 <Emcy> confirming YOUR txn might be, if blocks were getting full perhaps
1907 2014-02-19 19:11:41 <Emcy> but theyre not
1908 2014-02-19 19:11:46 <Emcy> and the economics should take care of it anyway
1909 2014-02-19 19:12:10 <wumpus> the whole reason seems to be to show the two addresses in android wallet, as it afaik is the only client that shows 'from address'
1910 2014-02-19 19:12:18 <Emcy> wumpus why dont they confirm? zero fee?
1911 2014-02-19 19:12:38 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I still think its very interesting what they aren't spamming.
1912 2014-02-19 19:13:25 <Emcy> ?
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1916 2014-02-19 19:14:40 <wumpus> Emcy: they're 25k transactions with 749 and 750 outputs, haven't checked the fee but it's likely not very much
1917 2014-02-19 19:15:04 <wumpus> not enough for such a huge transaction, otherwise they would consume their coins very quickly
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1921 2014-02-19 19:16:13 <wumpus> gmaxwell: it is, though my guess is that they're spamming everything, but the transactions don't show up in recent bitcoind/-qt because they're dropped as dust before accepting into mempool/wallet
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1924 2014-02-19 19:17:50 <wumpus> looks like the dust check was added in 0.8.2, so it makes sense I'm not seeing them from that or later versions
1925 2014-02-19 19:21:49 <wumpus> sometimes there is a small overlap between the lists of 749 addresses they send to, so it may be that they're randomly sampling from a (very) large list with every transaction
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1943 2014-02-19 19:42:54 <wumpus> my guess would be random sampling from a list of 2.5 million addresses; anyone have an idea how many unique addresses have been used on the blockchain in total?
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1962 2014-02-19 19:56:40 <Techguy305> Well if anyone wants to dump bitcoin for cash, just shoot me a PM Grin
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1970 2014-02-19 20:00:11 <wumpus> Techguy305: this is not a trading channel, try #bitcoin-otc
1971 2014-02-19 20:00:24 <swulf--> the speed at which testnet blocks are coming out is pretty interesting... :P
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1977 2014-02-19 20:01:33 <_syslog> salut
1978 2014-02-19 20:02:32 <_syslog> the apicall listaccounts returns unexpected values. the wallet balance is 0 but listaccounts shows account1=>20, account2=>10, ...
1979 2014-02-19 20:02:41 <_syslog> *results not values.
1980 2014-02-19 20:02:53 <swulf--> syslog: are there other accounts with negative values?
1981 2014-02-19 20:03:02 <_syslog> no, all of them 0
1982 2014-02-19 20:03:11 * swulf-- shrugs
1983 2014-02-19 20:03:54 <_syslog> i can give you proof if you want ?
1984 2014-02-19 20:05:39 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1986 2014-02-19 20:06:07 <swulf--> i'm not familiar enough to help with that ;)
1987 2014-02-19 20:06:24 <_syslog> the balance must be 10 but listaccounts call returns accounts with more balance. here is a ss for you
1988 2014-02-19 20:06:25 <_syslog> http://s28.postimg.org/o35la1j6k/screen4.jpg
1989 2014-02-19 20:06:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|swulf--: Heh, how fast are they coming?
1990 2014-02-19 20:06:57 <swulf--> michagogo:: 5-6 per minute?
1991 2014-02-19 20:07:29 _ImI_ has joined
1992 2014-02-19 20:07:31 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|pulls out his BE
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1994 2014-02-19 20:08:04 <_syslog> In accounts widget shows account has total: 25 BTC, but getbalance shows wallet has only 10 BTC
1995 2014-02-19 20:08:15 <_syslog> also there is no negative account. as you can see.
1996 2014-02-19 20:08:59 roidster has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1999 2014-02-19 20:11:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|swulf--: just sped it up a bunch
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2001 2014-02-19 20:12:03 <swulf--> michagogo: you added some hashing power?
2002 2014-02-19 20:12:14 glebe has joined
2003 2014-02-19 20:12:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yep, with a clock set ahead to abuse the 20-minute rule
2004 2014-02-19 20:12:35 <swulf--> nice :P
2005 2014-02-19 20:12:55 <_syslog> any ideas why this is happening ?
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2017 2014-02-19 20:19:10 <benzrf> try to find major flaws
2018 2014-02-19 20:19:11 <benzrf> oops
2019 2014-02-19 20:19:17 <benzrf> anybody care to mess around with what ive written so far for my cc
2020 2014-02-19 20:19:22 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021 2014-02-19 20:19:24 <benzrf> and maybe try to find major flaws?
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2023 2014-02-19 20:19:30 <benzrf> no networking written yet, just backend stuff like block verification
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2025 2014-02-19 20:19:46 <Persopolis> whats the mathematical relation between difficulty and bits fields of a block
2026 2014-02-19 20:20:33 <Persopolis> if any...
2027 2014-02-19 20:20:35 <SomeoneWeird> science
2028 2014-02-19 20:21:29 <Persopolis> shall I start calling you Jesse?
2029 2014-02-19 20:22:03 <_syslog> well if you do that there is another word after science.
2030 2014-02-19 20:22:28 <Persopolis> just what I was thinking :) - also he could have said magnets
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2038 2014-02-19 20:27:52 <Persopolis> seriously is there a way to derive one from the other?
2039 2014-02-19 20:28:13 <benzrf> :[
2040 2014-02-19 20:28:20 <benzrf> pls i need testing
2041 2014-02-19 20:28:21 <benzrf> ;-;
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2043 2014-02-19 20:28:40 <swulf--> persopolis: that information is readily available on the web
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2072 2014-02-19 20:53:42 <wumpus> so each minute this spammer generates a transaction; it randomly picks one of 1000 inputs, randomly picks 749 addresses from the list of all addresses used in the block chain, and sends them all a satoshi (appearing as 1Enjoy in clients that display 'from address')... then in a second transaction, it sends the same 749 addresses another satoshi from a different input (appearing as 1Sochi in clients that display 'from address')
2073 2014-02-19 20:53:58 <wumpus> it sound about as pointless as it gets :)
2074 2014-02-19 20:54:04 <zooko> Heh heh.
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2083 2014-02-19 21:03:24 <swulf--> wumpus: so, what's the point?
2084 2014-02-19 21:04:07 <benzrf> cmon ;-;
2085 2014-02-19 21:04:23 <benzrf> can anybody spare a few minutes to look over and/or test out what exists of my cc
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2093 2014-02-19 21:06:58 <wumpus> swulf--: no clue, at least it's clear that it is a patched/custom client that sends them, and it's very regular so entirely automated
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2095 2014-02-19 21:07:20 <swulf--> hmm
2096 2014-02-19 21:07:43 <zooko> You don't know that the selection of source and target is "random".
2097 2014-02-19 21:07:58 <wumpus> zooko: it looks uniformly random
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2101 2014-02-19 21:09:31 <wumpus> I don't know if the target set is the full set of addresses in the block chain, but it must be a very large list, and selection from it appears to happen randomly
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2105 2014-02-19 21:15:19 <wumpus> in any case I'll collect some more data and maybe upload it tomorrow, if someone wants to run statistics on it
2106 2014-02-19 21:16:32 <zooko> Cool.
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2163 2014-02-19 22:02:57 <jonyesa> need some help with a new coin. will pay you. pm if youre a linux user
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2170 2014-02-19 22:04:59 <daybyter> no new coins...there are already way too many...
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2178 2014-02-19 22:09:49 <Gerendon> For picking a coding language for the framework of an exchange; any recommendations for php vs python vs alternatives?
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2181 2014-02-19 22:10:17 <upb> definitely PHP, the worlds largest bitcoin exchange where you can trade with confidence runs on PHP
2182 2014-02-19 22:10:48 <Gerendon> upb: I've been suggested against PHP considering it has trouble scaling, what exchange are you talking about however?
2183 2014-02-19 22:10:53 <daybyter> java...
2184 2014-02-19 22:10:56 <daybyter> I like java...
2185 2014-02-19 22:11:26 <upb> Gerendon: mtgox
2186 2014-02-19 22:11:32 <daybyter> :-)
2187 2014-02-19 22:11:44 <sipa> sounds off topic here
2188 2014-02-19 22:12:10 <Gerendon> ubp: I hope that was a sarcastic comment
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2191 2014-02-19 22:12:52 <Gerendon> ubp: Hasn't mtgox been hacked multiple times, along with recurrent trading lag?
2192 2014-02-19 22:13:05 <gmaxwell> OFF TOPIC
2193 2014-02-19 22:13:26 roasbeef has joined
2194 2014-02-19 22:13:34 <Gerendon> alright mb
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2212 2014-02-19 22:29:04 <catcow> off topic should be a clothing brand
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2278 2014-02-19 23:21:07 <Emcy> http://blog.libtorrent.org/2012/12/swarm-connectivity/ Looks like theyre changing the peer selection algos in bittorrent
2279 2014-02-19 23:21:19 <Emcy> interesting, probably relevant to bitcoin too
2280 2014-02-19 23:21:41 <Emcy> dem node graphs
2281 2014-02-19 23:22:04 <gmaxwell> they made in == out before?!
2282 2014-02-19 23:22:05 <gmaxwell> wtf.
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2286 2014-02-19 23:22:45 <Emcy> ?
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2302 2014-02-19 23:28:56 <DougieBot5000> Is the routing block on dust transactions still active? And if so, is it still 56 uBTC?
2303 2014-02-19 23:29:27 <Emcy> 5430 satoshis iirc
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