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   2 2014-02-21 00:00:23 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: Is the swap necessary?
   3 2014-02-21 00:00:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: I think that's the script for the SHA256 collision bounty
   4 2014-02-21 00:00:54 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: Yes.
   5 2014-02-21 00:01:04 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: yeah, but could it be implemented without the swap
   6 2014-02-21 00:01:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No
   7 2014-02-21 00:01:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|First, you use OP_2DUP OP_EQUAL OP_NOT OP_VERIFY to check that the inputs are different
   8 2014-02-21 00:02:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The second phase, OP_SHA256 OP_SWAP OP_SHA256 OP_EQUAL, hashes one, swaps its hash with the other unhashed one, hashes the other one, and checks for equality
   9 2014-02-21 00:02:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|OP_SHA256 takes the top item on the stack, hashes it, and returns the hash to the stack
  10 2014-02-21 00:03:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So you need to swap the hash of the first item with the second item, so the second item is on top, and gets hashed
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  12 2014-02-21 00:04:05 <justanotheruser> Could you guys give me advice? I wanted to make a lisp-like language, but some opcodes don't really fit, like the stack ones. I can easily turn OP_ADD OP_MUL into (* (+ $1 $2) $3), but I don't know what to do with the stack ops. Is lisp impossible?
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  14 2014-02-21 00:04:22 <sipa> what is your goal?
  15 2014-02-21 00:04:41 <justanotheruser> sipa: a language that is easier than just assembly to use
  16 2014-02-21 00:05:01 <sipa> you want to convert a lisp-like script language to the bitcoin script language?
  17 2014-02-21 00:05:08 <justanotheruser> sipa: yes
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  19 2014-02-21 00:05:16 <sipa> so why do you care about stack operators?
  20 2014-02-21 00:05:22 <sipa> use them if you need to, don't if you don't
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  22 2014-02-21 00:06:49 <emowataji> justanotheruser: are you creating a new scripting subsystem or are you compiling the lisp language down to the bitcoin one?
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  26 2014-02-21 00:07:18 <justanotheruser> sipa: Hmm, so how would I implement the SHA256 bounty? (and (= (SHA256 $1) (SHA256 $2)) (not (= $1 $2)))
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  29 2014-02-21 00:07:42 <justanotheruser> emowataji: just lisp syntax
  30 2014-02-21 00:07:50 <sipa> justanotheruser: looks good
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  33 2014-02-21 00:08:24 <justanotheruser> sipa: THe biggest problem is the space it takes up. I don't want to use 50% more bytes than needed
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  35 2014-02-21 00:08:44 <sipa> well then you'll need an optimizing compiler :)
  36 2014-02-21 00:09:17 <justanotheruser> sipa: yeah. The only thing unoptomized is the and, which could be a swap I think
  37 2014-02-21 00:09:33 <sipa> ??
  38 2014-02-21 00:09:49 <sipa> you're confused
  39 2014-02-21 00:09:56 <sipa> the and is in your source language
  40 2014-02-21 00:09:56 <justanotheruser> I use OP_AND.. Let me see how many bytes my code is VS gmaxwells
  41 2014-02-21 00:10:03 <sipa> ah
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  43 2014-02-21 00:10:12 <sipa> you already have a compiler :)
  44 2014-02-21 00:10:19 <sipa> what do you compile it to?
  45 2014-02-21 00:10:29 <justanotheruser> sipa: I was thinking OP_AND when I said and
  46 2014-02-21 00:10:38 <justanotheruser> sipa: bitcoin scripting language?
  47 2014-02-21 00:10:49 <emowataji> your "(and (= (SHA256 $1) (SHA256 $2)) (not (= $1 $2)))" does the sha256 calculations always whereas I believe gmaxwells script doesn't
  48 2014-02-21 00:11:06 <sipa> emowataji: no operations semantics is given :)
  49 2014-02-21 00:11:11 <sipa> it may optimize it
  50 2014-02-21 00:11:17 <emowataji> ok
  51 2014-02-21 00:11:29 <sipa> justanotheruser: yes, what opcodes do you compile that fragment to?
  52 2014-02-21 00:11:45 <justanotheruser> sipa: one second
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  54 2014-02-21 00:14:03 <justanotheruser> OP_2DUP OP_EQUAL OP_NOT OP_VERIFY OP_SHA256 OP_SWAP OP_SHA256 OP_EQUAL vs OP_2DUP OP_SHA256 OP_SHA256 OP_EQUAL OP_EQUAL OP_NOT OP_AND
  55 2014-02-21 00:14:25 <justanotheruser> 8 ops vs 7? did I miss something or did I make it smaller?
  56 2014-02-21 00:14:47 <emowataji> you need the swap
  57 2014-02-21 00:14:57 <emowataji> otherwise you are hashing the same thing twice
  58 2014-02-21 00:15:16 <justanotheruser> emowataji: ohhhh
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  61 2014-02-21 00:16:33 <justanotheruser> What I was thinking was I would have to give the programmer a swap function, but really it will be behind the scenes
  62 2014-02-21 00:16:49 <sipa> no, you should decide automatically to use it
  63 2014-02-21 00:17:00 <sipa> swap doesn't fit in the sort of language you're building
  64 2014-02-21 00:17:08 <sipa> neither does DUP
  65 2014-02-21 00:17:14 <sipa> or VERIFY
  66 2014-02-21 00:17:38 <emowataji> justanotheruser: do some reasearch on compiling lisp to a stack machine bytecode
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  72 2014-02-21 00:17:56 <justanotheruser> sipa: well DUP is part of it because you define the inputs $1, $2, etc
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  75 2014-02-21 00:18:06 <sipa> yes, but it's there implicitly
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  77 2014-02-21 00:18:10 <sipa> so should swap be
  78 2014-02-21 00:18:15 <sipa> or the other stack elements
  79 2014-02-21 00:18:16 <justanotheruser> sipa: yeah, you're right
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  81 2014-02-21 00:18:25 <sipa> you need them to bring the right arguments to the front
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  85 2014-02-21 00:19:08 <justanotheruser> Okay thanks. My goal is to make bitcoin scripts widely used
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  87 2014-02-21 00:19:37 <justanotheruser> AFAIK right now all scripts must be hand made
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  89 2014-02-21 00:20:16 * sipa off
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 224 2014-02-21 01:21:55 <TheButterZone> https://github.com/vrotaru/btcticker/issues/4
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 263 2014-02-21 01:54:00 <c--O-O> hi i have a weird question, can the devs help mtgox with php withdrawal coding, if he asked? i know that you know a lot. how can you do something like that?
 264 2014-02-21 01:54:59 <maaku> c--O-O: as far as I know mtgox has not offered to pay any developers to assist them
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 268 2014-02-21 01:55:29 <maaku> and besides, their problems are their own. they are not in need of protocol developers to fix this
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 271 2014-02-21 01:57:03 <c--O-O> maaku ok, well is there a way to offer a fix for free, something that both parties will be happy with, and is secure? I'm just saying maybe someone will freely help, given the conditions are right. because their prices have an effect on btc. just saying maybe there is a way to offer to fix the php code in a collaborative way.
 272 2014-02-21 01:57:25 <dhill> free help has been offered
 273 2014-02-21 01:57:32 <c--O-O> i see
 274 2014-02-21 01:57:43 <maaku> c--O-O: free help has been offered far beyond what would be reasonable
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 276 2014-02-21 01:57:54 <c--O-O> i understand.
 277 2014-02-21 01:57:59 <maaku> given the antagonistic, anti-social stance they took
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 279 2014-02-21 01:58:29 <maaku> but their problems are their own - it's their own wallet software and customer service procedures that lost them money
 280 2014-02-21 01:58:51 <maaku> if indeed they lost any money
 281 2014-02-21 01:58:55 <c--O-O> i know you would all give help now... yeah they aren't letting anyone help fix. I don't understand why, maybe they think someone will put some secret code in there to damage everything.
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 283 2014-02-21 01:59:08 <justanotheruser> Sooo... weird question. If I made a tx with the script OP_PUSH 2 OP_ADD OP_PUSH 4 OP_EQUAL, how long would it take for someone to cash in?
 284 2014-02-21 01:59:09 <c--O-O> yes
 285 2014-02-21 01:59:48 <c--O-O> and does bitcoin have a standard exchange platform?
 286 2014-02-21 01:59:53 <c--O-O> i dunno.
 287 2014-02-21 02:00:01 <justanotheruser> c--O-O: bitcoin doesn't have a standard anything
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 289 2014-02-21 02:00:08 <c--O-O> ok
 290 2014-02-21 02:00:11 <teward> exchanges are private entities
 291 2014-02-21 02:00:11 <justanotheruser> except for the protocol standard
 292 2014-02-21 02:00:25 <c--O-O> i thought all i could. it's them.
 293 2014-02-21 02:00:25 <justanotheruser> which is just what is allowed to be in a block
 294 2014-02-21 02:00:29 <teward> they can use whatever frameworks/software/interface/platform they want, so long as they follow the bitcoin protocol
 295 2014-02-21 02:00:41 <teward> as justanotheruser said
 296 2014-02-21 02:01:25 <justanotheruser> I think I'm going to try to figure out how long it takes bitcoin users to solve 2+X=4
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 301 2014-02-21 02:02:20 <maaku> justanotheruser: not very long now that you mentioned it here ;)
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 303 2014-02-21 02:03:25 <justanotheruser> I wonder if bounties for any millenium problems can be encoded into a script
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 312 2014-02-21 02:06:59 <maaku> justanotheruser: almost certainly not
 313 2014-02-21 02:07:22 <maaku> script is extremely limited, especially now that most arithmetic and string manipulation opcodes are disabled
 314 2014-02-21 02:07:51 <maaku> that plus malleability makes script more of a novelty than something useful, most of the time
 315 2014-02-21 02:08:11 <justanotheruser> maaku: How does malleability effect it?
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 319 2014-02-21 02:09:04 <maaku> justanotheruser: because most of the interesting application of scripts are to contracts, and malleability limits what you can do in terms of putting stuff together off-chain
 320 2014-02-21 02:09:38 <justanotheruser> maaku: I don't understand? Malleability can't change a script. What does it matter? TXID isn't part of a script?
 321 2014-02-21 02:09:52 <maaku> TXID is part of an input
 322 2014-02-21 02:10:23 <justanotheruser> maaku: yeah, but if it's in an input, it doesn't matter because the output being spent must already be in the blockchain
 323 2014-02-21 02:10:26 <maaku> so if you chain multiple transactions together (as often is done in contract protocols), you run the risk of the chain being broken by malleability
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 327 2014-02-21 02:10:58 <maaku> justanotheruser: that's exactly the point. many of the interesting applications involve spending outputs which are *not* on the block chain
 328 2014-02-21 02:11:18 <maaku> e.g. pre-signed refund or escrow transactions, or somesuch
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 330 2014-02-21 02:11:33 <justanotheruser> maaku: no way around that other than fixing malleability?
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 338 2014-02-21 02:15:03 <maaku> justanotheruser: correct (although it's not clear yet we fully can fix malleability)
 339 2014-02-21 02:15:24 <justanotheruser> maaku: So sad :'(
 340 2014-02-21 02:15:33 <justanotheruser> Why haven't I heard anything of this until recently?
 341 2014-02-21 02:15:40 <justanotheruser> (recently being 2 minutes ago)
 342 2014-02-21 02:15:55 roasbeef has joined
 343 2014-02-21 02:16:05 <maaku> heard about what? contracts?
 344 2014-02-21 02:16:14 <justanotheruser> maaku: malleability crushing my dreams
 345 2014-02-21 02:16:34 <justanotheruser> ironic isn't it
 346 2014-02-21 02:16:48 njaard has joined
 347 2014-02-21 02:17:05 <njaard> gmaxwell: why is ripemd used instead of a truncated sha256?
 348 2014-02-21 02:17:22 <maaku> njaard: ask satoshi not gmaxwell
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 350 2014-02-21 02:17:45 <njaard> <joke>Who's that</joke>
 351 2014-02-21 02:17:45 <maaku> well it's exactly why there hasn't been much activity with interesting scripts & complicated transaction protocols
 352 2014-02-21 02:18:21 <njaard> what do you mean?
 353 2014-02-21 02:18:33 <justanotheruser> maaku: oh. I thought it was just because people didn't do it
 354 2014-02-21 02:18:58 <gmaxwell> njaard: because truncation of all hash functions isn't safe, its a more conservative design to use something which has been tested in that specific construct (though truncated sha256 now looks fine)
 355 2014-02-21 02:19:20 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: any comments on this?
 356 2014-02-21 02:19:24 <gmaxwell> RIPEMD160 has a greate security trackrecord.  In any case, if you want you could be using HASH256 based keys.
 357 2014-02-21 02:19:37 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: on what?
 358 2014-02-21 02:20:01 <justanotheruser> 21:08 < maaku> justanotheruser: because most of the interesting application of scripts are to contracts, and malleability limits what you can do in terms of putting  stuff together off-chain
 359 2014-02-21 02:20:03 <maaku> justanotheruser: a bit of both. there are interesting things that can be done now
 360 2014-02-21 02:20:11 <maaku> but just aren't because no one does
 361 2014-02-21 02:20:18 <njaard> I'm sorry I asked ;)
 362 2014-02-21 02:20:18 <maaku> no one really uses multisig even
 363 2014-02-21 02:20:36 <justanotheruser> coinswap requires a refund tx right? So tx malleability effects it?
 364 2014-02-21 02:20:41 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: maybe a bit of an exageration, malleability makes any protocol that involves precomputed refunds a little less safe and more complicated. But those protocols are already very complicated.
 365 2014-02-21 02:20:58 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: I even talked about that in the coinswap page!
 366 2014-02-21 02:21:08 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: okay, reading it again
 367 2014-02-21 02:21:23 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 368 2014-02-21 02:21:36 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: you can effectively blind the refund signature using p2sh (or perhaps the new blind ECDSA) so that the exposure is pretty minimal though.
 369 2014-02-21 02:21:40 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 370 2014-02-21 02:21:44 <gmaxwell> but it makes it somewhat more complicated.
 371 2014-02-21 02:21:45 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: ctrl+f malleability gives me nothing
 372 2014-02-21 02:21:56 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: does it make the tx much larger?
 373 2014-02-21 02:22:08 <gmaxwell> no.
 374 2014-02-21 02:22:20 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: Is it possible without protocol changes?
 375 2014-02-21 02:22:29 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: "Also note that care related to mutability is required for the refunds until transaction mutability is solved."
 376 2014-02-21 02:22:36 <njaard> gmaxwell: thank you for the answer
 377 2014-02-21 02:22:40 <gmaxwell> I describe how to work around it in one of the coinflip threads.
 378 2014-02-21 02:22:48 AusBitBank has joined
 379 2014-02-21 02:23:08 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: okay, is the workaround invulnerable?
 380 2014-02-21 02:23:20 <gmaxwell> No.
 381 2014-02-21 02:23:23 <gmaxwell> you just make it so that the refund uses p2sh and a nonce, so the signer doesn't know which txn is theirs... so they'd be forced to mutate all txn to try to break the refund.
 382 2014-02-21 02:23:44 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: oh, well that's not very secure at all
 383 2014-02-21 02:24:08 <justanotheruser> The cost of mutating every transaction and pushing to eligus is fairly small
 384 2014-02-21 02:24:24 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: that isn't going to work.
 385 2014-02-21 02:24:31 <justanotheruser> Wait, that's wrongly put, but it's still insecure for other reasons
 386 2014-02-21 02:24:35 pierreatwork has joined
 387 2014-02-21 02:24:42 <justanotheruser> GHash.io for example
 388 2014-02-21 02:24:56 go1111111 has joined
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 390 2014-02-21 02:26:33 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: what's wrong with this? https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691
 391 2014-02-21 02:27:08 <gmaxwell> nothing is wrong with it, it's the plan we've been executing on— more or less— for several years now.
 392 2014-02-21 02:27:33 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: has it been accelerated at all recently?
 393 2014-02-21 02:27:47 <gmaxwell> No, why would it be?
 394 2014-02-21 02:28:09 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: because mtgox made the community want it to be accelerated
 395 2014-02-21 02:28:21 <gmaxwell> No, mtgox specifically asked for something entirely unrelated.
 396 2014-02-21 02:28:54 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: what? They said the flaw was malleability, and some of the community believed them, especially after the DoS
 397 2014-02-21 02:28:56 <gmaxwell> Considering that they went basically a year without updating their software to stop producing invalid DER encodings— actively blocking the improvements— it's a pretty long streach to say that they want it.
 398 2014-02-21 02:29:22 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: No, they said they wanted another transaction ID, which they have now.
 399 2014-02-21 02:29:25 BGL has joined
 400 2014-02-21 02:29:47 <maaku> gmaxwell: well mtgox foibles aside, their snafu did make people care about malleability / mutated transactions
 401 2014-02-21 02:29:51 <gmaxwell> They were abundantly clear on this. I'm really getting fed up with dealing with the deception and failed reading comprehension.
 402 2014-02-21 02:29:54 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: I'm not talking about what mtgox wanted, I'm talking about the community (based on /r/bitcoin)
 403 2014-02-21 02:29:58 gmaxwell has left ()
 404 2014-02-21 02:30:31 <justanotheruser> wow...
 405 2014-02-21 02:30:51 * maaku does the same and goes back to work
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 407 2014-02-21 02:33:06 <justanotheruser> "Fortunately, as we announced on Saturday we have now
 408 2014-02-21 02:33:07 <justanotheruser> implemented a solution that should enable withdrawals and mitigate any issues
 409 2014-02-21 02:33:09 <justanotheruser> caused by transaction malleability"
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 426 2014-02-21 02:52:28 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: is there any reason to have the "reuse existing address" checkbox now that we keep a history?
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 441 2014-02-21 03:06:26 <analogrithems> I have an odd question.  I checked my mtgox wallet in the block chain and it shows no transactions.  I asked in mtgox-chat and they said this is because it's an internal transaction.  My question is, does anyone know if other exchanges operate this way also?  Has Mtgox always done this?  Finally is this proof that they are selling bc they don't actually have?
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 445 2014-02-21 03:07:06 <gmaxwell> analogrithems: thats normal, expected, happens elsewhere, always been like that, etc.
 446 2014-02-21 03:07:13 agricocb has joined
 447 2014-02-21 03:09:10 benten has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 448 2014-02-21 03:11:46 <analogrithems> odd, I checked coin base and vaultofsatoshi and the transactions from them both actually show up in the block chain.  Hrrm, I'll check btc-e next
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 452 2014-02-21 03:14:36 <gmaxwell> analogrithems: coinbase makes internal transactions externally, this has been criticized as wasteful in the past.
 453 2014-02-21 03:16:17 <jgarzik> I wonder if any of the wallets adopt a model where they segregate each user's keys into their own walled garden?
 454 2014-02-21 03:16:20 <analogrithems> gmazwell: do you work at gox?
 455 2014-02-21 03:16:25 <jgarzik> I suppose blockchain.info does this by necessity.
 456 2014-02-21 03:16:51 <jgarzik> That would imply internal service transfers would be sent externally.
 457 2014-02-21 03:17:05 <analogrithems> just curious if that makes it difficult to audit if they aren't in the public space.  Also while it may be wasteful it seems like it would ease a lot of peoples concerns of liquidity
 458 2014-02-21 03:17:35 <jgarzik> analogrithems, Gox is impossible to audit, without Gox's permission
 459 2014-02-21 03:17:40 <jgarzik> but
 460 2014-02-21 03:17:44 <jgarzik> this is off-topic for this channel
 461 2014-02-21 03:17:50 <emowataji> jgarzik: would that complicate using cold storage for funds?
 462 2014-02-21 03:18:08 <emowataji> jgarzik: (segregating keys and doing internal transfers externally)
 463 2014-02-21 03:18:32 <jgarzik> emowataji, perhaps yes.  It can be done, with thought.
 464 2014-02-21 03:19:36 <kuzetsa> tail -1000 /home/bitcoin/.bitcoin/debug.log | fgrep progress | cut -d '=' -f 7 | tail -1 is finally at 0.999349
 465 2014-02-21 03:19:39 <kuzetsa> as per [18:16:46] <sipa> ok, let me know how long it takes
 466 2014-02-21 03:19:41 <analogrithems> sorry for the off topic guys just trying to understand what is individual implementation vs recommended method in this wild west new world
 467 2014-02-21 03:19:57 <kuzetsa> so I guess "about 4 hours" ... which is longer than I expected :(
 468 2014-02-21 03:20:19 <analogrithems> is their a better channel that talks about development implementation designs?
 469 2014-02-21 03:21:24 <analogrithems> working on a project that places the whole block chain into elastic search to try new search capabilities
 470 2014-02-21 03:22:47 <kuzetsa> "elastic search" <-- not sure what that means
 471 2014-02-21 03:23:11 <kuzetsa> http://www.elasticsearch.org/ <-- this?
 472 2014-02-21 03:23:30 <k9quaint> jgarzik stole all the gox btc and gave it to the illuminatii in exchange for justin beiber tickets, but thats off topic
 473 2014-02-21 03:23:53 go1111111 has joined
 474 2014-02-21 03:24:59 <kuzetsa> analogrithems: if so, I'm kinda confused by the buzz word: "distributed percolations"
 475 2014-02-21 03:25:18 <kuzetsa> google doesn't know what to make of it either (that term)
 476 2014-02-21 03:25:22 linagee has joined
 477 2014-02-21 03:25:58 <linagee> would it be possible to use the 80 extra bytes from bitcoin 0.9 to point to a URL with .js that nodes can run?
 478 2014-02-21 03:26:08 <linagee> (sort of like ethereum script)
 479 2014-02-21 03:26:26 <analogrithems> kuzetsa: yes www.elasticsearch.org
 480 2014-02-21 03:26:43 <analogrithems> where did you see distributed percolations
 481 2014-02-21 03:26:52 <kuzetsa> analogrithems: ok then, fine... but what are you attempting to accomplish?
 482 2014-02-21 03:26:55 <linagee> or store ethereum script itself in the 80 bytes and allow chaining together multiple parts
 483 2014-02-21 03:27:08 <gmaxwell> linagee: dude, please lay off the drugs.
 484 2014-02-21 03:27:15 <gmaxwell> linagee: what the @#$@ are you thinking?
 485 2014-02-21 03:27:21 AriseChikun has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 486 2014-02-21 03:27:25 <copumpkin> lol
 487 2014-02-21 03:27:43 <linagee> gmaxwell: drinking from the ethereum wine and thinking to how it might be integrated back into bitcoin. :)
 488 2014-02-21 03:27:44 <kuzetsa> analogrithems: (quote from http://www.elasticsearch.org/ ) what's new in 1.0?   snapshot & restore, distributed percolations, aggregations and more
 489 2014-02-21 03:27:48 <gmaxwell> I'm sorry, I can't hear your response past the knife I just planted in your face.
 490 2014-02-21 03:28:01 <linagee> gmaxwell: brutal! :(
 491 2014-02-21 03:28:07 <analogrithems> oh, the es system combines nosql + Java lucene + autosharding and clustering to take very large data sets and allow you to create some really fast data search and aggregation
 492 2014-02-21 03:28:08 <gmaxwell> linagee: Sorry. :P
 493 2014-02-21 03:28:24 <linagee> gmaxwell: adapt or die. I'm trying to adapt.
 494 2014-02-21 03:28:40 <gmaxwell> linagee: you're throughly throughly confused.
 495 2014-02-21 03:28:52 <gmaxwell> So much so that I don't know what to do except set you on fire.
 496 2014-02-21 03:28:53 <linagee> gmaxwell: howso?
 497 2014-02-21 03:29:00 iwilcox has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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 499 2014-02-21 03:29:31 <analogrithems> Initially I'm doing this to try to get a better understanding of how bit coin works under the hood but eventually I'll be using this to create some better metrics about trading based off time, (possibly location if I can find a way to correlate it, maybe IP)
 500 2014-02-21 03:29:32 iwilcox_ is now known as iwilcox
 501 2014-02-21 03:29:34 <linagee> gmaxwell: am I misunderstanding that "there will be 80 extra bytes to store stuff"?
 502 2014-02-21 03:29:52 <gmaxwell> linagee: because what the everlasting fuck. We have a flexible scripting system already. There aren't any "80 extra bytes", ... script rules are part of a cryptographic consensus system, you can't just glom on javascript and urls and not create complete doom.
 503 2014-02-21 03:29:53 SwampTony has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 504 2014-02-21 03:29:59 <gmaxwell> linagee: yes, you are misunderstanding.
 505 2014-02-21 03:30:00 <kuzetsa> analogrithems: bitcoin protocol itself has no concept of exchange rates (so "trading" is not relevant)
 506 2014-02-21 03:30:04 <gmaxwell> And misunderstanding that there would need to be
 507 2014-02-21 03:30:10 reneg has joined
 508 2014-02-21 03:30:11 elgrecoFL is now known as unexpected
 509 2014-02-21 03:30:22 <analogrithems> an example used in elastic search is that 4square uses it to track 4million locations in realtime
 510 2014-02-21 03:30:29 <gmaxwell> and misunderstanding that adding javascript fetched from a URL would be at all viable and wouldn't instantly destroy the network and completely undermine its security.
 511 2014-02-21 03:30:35 SwampTony has joined
 512 2014-02-21 03:30:41 <gmaxwell> and misunderstanding that doing such a thing would be even slightly desirable
 513 2014-02-21 03:30:52 <linagee> gmaxwell: explain the doom part. even if a small number of miners did this, it would work just fine. no need for a 50%+ consensus. you'd just get paid for executing this extra script.
 514 2014-02-21 03:31:05 <linagee> gmaxwell: DAOs...
 515 2014-02-21 03:31:24 <gmaxwell> and misunderstanding that we've worked very hard to avoid introducing turing completenes into script— having almost done so accidentally once— and missing that etherum has _absolutely no_ argument as to how their validation model won't end up completely insecure.
 516 2014-02-21 03:31:27 AriseChikun has joined
 517 2014-02-21 03:31:32 <kuzetsa> analogrithems: I still have no idea what you're trying to accomplish or why
 518 2014-02-21 03:32:04 joesmoe has joined
 519 2014-02-21 03:32:04 <linagee> gmaxwell: please steer me away from ethereum. how would it be insecure? re: the code they run, you mean?
 520 2014-02-21 03:32:08 <gmaxwell> linagee: paid for executing something accomplishes _nothing_ if you want to pay people to execute something go use EC2.
 521 2014-02-21 03:32:12 <analogrithems> kuzetsa: i understand it has no concept or need for exchange rates.  I'm looking to try to see if I can get new metrics about how trades happen, where they come from and go to, which ones are doing more, which exchanges handle the most volume, from where and what time of day they happen
 522 2014-02-21 03:32:55 <gmaxwell> linagee: no, because they have proposed making verifying blocks _very_ expensive, and have not proposed any way that people can get compensated from actually performing the work.
 523 2014-02-21 03:33:00 <analogrithems> similarly to how blockchain.info provides limited details on whats happening when and where
 524 2014-02-21 03:33:02 <kuzetsa> analogrithems: bitcoin protocol has no sense of which nodes (exchange-owned or otherwise) are the intended target for a transaction either.
 525 2014-02-21 03:33:30 <gmaxwell> linagee: executing things outside of the context of consensus is pointless. Why bother? nothing then validates that its being performed correctly or not.
 526 2014-02-21 03:33:36 <linagee> gmaxwell: your ethereum contracts take extra mining fee to run. or they get ignored. more code to run = higher fee.
 527 2014-02-21 03:34:07 <gmaxwell> linagee: yes, which is only paid to the miner that includes them, and not anyone else. But _everyone_ must validate them, or the miner can just falsely include them.
 528 2014-02-21 03:34:10 <analogrithems> kuzetsa: how are sites measuring the trade volume of the exchanges?
 529 2014-02-21 03:34:45 unexpected is now known as elgrecoFL
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 531 2014-02-21 03:34:59 <linagee> gmaxwell: I'm watching Vtalik (sp?) and he didn't address though - what if someone just wants to take up a lot of computing power and can spend an endless amount of money? (similar to, what if someone wants to send a trillion dust transactions on bitcoin. I guess we can just raise the dust threshold, but that seems quite evil.)
 532 2014-02-21 03:35:13 <Luke-Jr> analogrithems: the blockchain is not for auditing purposes.
 533 2014-02-21 03:35:22 <gmaxwell> linagee: step aside while I drop these tanks of nuclear waste in your living room, what do you mean stop? I already paid petertodd for the privledge of doing this.
 534 2014-02-21 03:35:46 johnsoft has joined
 535 2014-02-21 03:36:19 <analogrithems> so far I've only been working with the data from bitcond rpc interface getblock & gettransaction
 536 2014-02-21 03:36:27 <kuzetsa> analogrithems: I agree with what Luke-Jr just said. analogrithems: You have some ideas I don't understand, and I have no idea what or why you're doing whatever you think you want to do.
 537 2014-02-21 03:36:29 SwampTon_ has joined
 538 2014-02-21 03:36:57 <gmaxwell> linagee: then there is the whole question of applications, we have a powerful scripting system in bitcoin which is almost completely unused. It's very powerful and no one is even suggesting things that it can't do— if they were whatever missing opcodes could be provided.
 539 2014-02-21 03:37:13 <gmaxwell> linagee: which is sort of a non-existance proof about the actual usefulness of this stuff.
 540 2014-02-21 03:37:16 <linagee> gmaxwell: anyone who can drum up buzz will get funded though. its a popularity game. even if the model does crumble. like altcoins and dogecoin. /me rinses mouth out from saying that word.
 541 2014-02-21 03:37:29 <analogrithems> as i stated initially it's to understand bc system better, long term is to try to see what data is available to make better metrics
 542 2014-02-21 03:37:44 <gmaxwell> linagee: not to mention that if you don't actually care about real security you can oracle bond any computable function into bitcoin already.. but no one has bothered.
 543 2014-02-21 03:38:19 <kuzetsa> analogrithems: why do you want metrics?
 544 2014-02-21 03:38:21 <linagee> gmaxwell: I do agree with that. but how do you provide unencrypted data to the recipient?
 545 2014-02-21 03:38:37 <kuzetsa> analogrithems: metrics for //what// exactly are you after?
 546 2014-02-21 03:38:42 <gmaxwell> linagee: yea sure, I do get that. But if you want to fight hopepumping you can't do so with technology. No one completely honest will ever be able to compete with the marking pumping of someone not so constrained.
 547 2014-02-21 03:38:47 just[dead] is now known as justanotheruser
 548 2014-02-21 03:39:01 <gmaxwell> linagee: can you try phrasing that question another way?
 549 2014-02-21 03:40:01 <analogrithems> personally I'm just curious about what all this looks like when it's graphed.  I'm a bit of a math nerd.  Is anyone ever curious how much money is spent on a given day on transaction fees?
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 551 2014-02-21 03:40:20 <linagee> gmaxwell: if I want to have a service where I add 2+2 for you, just send money to my bitcoin address, how do I provide a result?
 552 2014-02-21 03:40:22 <analogrithems> what about what is the avg confirmation time?
 553 2014-02-21 03:40:44 SwampTon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 554 2014-02-21 03:41:01 <analogrithems> also with regard to confirmations does the block chain record who does the confirmations?  Is there a way to see who does most of the confirmations?
 555 2014-02-21 03:41:34 <linagee> analogrithems: blockchain.info provides this. (ie, which mining pool does the transaction)
 556 2014-02-21 03:41:35 <kuzetsa> analogrithems: confirmations are nothing more than a transaction being stored in the blockchain, and how deep it is in the chain
 557 2014-02-21 03:41:39 <justanotheruser> analogrithems: the blockchain doesn't record who generates blocks. Blockchain.info tries to, but it's not guaranteed to be accurate
 558 2014-02-21 03:42:05 <gmaxwell> linagee: that isn't what etherum does in any case... everyone executes the script, including the party thta created it... though what you are asking for can actually be done in Bitcoin. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Zero_Knowledge_Contingent_Payment
 559 2014-02-21 03:42:12 Kieraan has joined
 560 2014-02-21 03:42:17 <linagee> justanotheruser: exactly. they are just a third party making a best-effort attempt.
 561 2014-02-21 03:43:01 <kuzetsa> linagee: are you now talking about the thing with confirmations which analogrithems was asking about?
 562 2014-02-21 03:43:23 <kuzetsa> or ... wanting to measure "better-ly" or something
 563 2014-02-21 03:43:25 <kuzetsa> I'm really not sure
 564 2014-02-21 03:43:32 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: Does etherum have the malleability exploit we were just discussing?
 565 2014-02-21 03:43:52 <analogrithems> is the blockchain.info code open sourced?
 566 2014-02-21 03:43:54 <justanotheruser> By that I mean, can it do Zero Knowledge Contingent payments without a problem
 567 2014-02-21 03:43:58 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: it doesn't really exist so it's not really a meaningful question.
 568 2014-02-21 03:44:00 <linagee> gmaxwell: many people *could* do the computation though. send payment to a known dust address (using a seed or something), provide your computation in the "unencrypted form" I was previously talking about. The reward of the computation is bitcoins sent back to the address who solved your problem for you.
 569 2014-02-21 03:44:13 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: good point
 570 2014-02-21 03:44:17 <kuzetsa> analogrithems: much of it is (open source, yes)
 571 2014-02-21 03:44:41 <kuzetsa> analogrithems --> https://github.com/blockchain
 572 2014-02-21 03:44:42 <gmaxwell> linagee: sure but you can do this in bitcoin today.   OP_1 OP_1 OP_ADD OP_EQUALS  tada.
 573 2014-02-21 03:44:57 <kuzetsa> analogrithems: some of their business model / backend stuff might not be open soruce though
 574 2014-02-21 03:45:09 <gmaxwell> but its stupid because its not zero-knoweldge, just like it wouldn't be zero-knoweldge in etherum, meaning anyone who saw the execution could steal the result.
 575 2014-02-21 03:45:22 yubrew has joined
 576 2014-02-21 03:45:25 <gmaxwell> and insanely waseful, since all nodes must repeat the computation.
 577 2014-02-21 03:45:29 <linagee> gmaxwell: that's neat, but I actually meant like the opcodes ethereum has. (the 60 or whatnot.) if they are all there (or even most), then its definitely something I'm interested in
 578 2014-02-21 03:45:33 <gmaxwell> but they don't get paid for it.
 579 2014-02-21 03:46:00 <analogrithems> also the information returned from getblock & gettransaction is that the complete information that is stored in the block chain or is there more?
 580 2014-02-21 03:46:20 <linagee> gmaxwell: I get it. so you'd want a consensus. not a random answer. not sure if that's what ethereum is doing or not...
 581 2014-02-21 03:46:26 <gmaxwell> linagee: You've not actually described an actual application, I think you're basically being defrauded by careless marketing by the Etherum team.
 582 2014-02-21 03:46:39 <linagee> :(
 583 2014-02-21 03:46:39 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: Could you explain what part of tx malleability might not be fixable? I'm reading the github on how to supposedly fix it.
 584 2014-02-21 03:46:59 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: I have no clue what you're talking about.
 585 2014-02-21 03:47:09 <linagee> gmaxwell: have you taken a look at their subcurency CLL?
 586 2014-02-21 03:47:44 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: 21:14 < maaku> justanotheruser: correct (although it's not clear yet we fully can fix malleability)
 587 2014-02-21 03:48:10 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: because we have no proof that there isn't additional algebraic malleability in DSA beyond the amount we know about already.
 588 2014-02-21 03:48:23 <gmaxwell> though it seems likely that there isn't.
 589 2014-02-21 03:48:37 <linagee> https://github.com/jorisbontje/cll-sim/blob/master/examples/subcurrency.cll    compiles to these opcodes: http://pastebin.com/sBpN6pG5
 590 2014-02-21 03:48:51 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: I see. Is it possible to prove that there isn't malleability?
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 593 2014-02-21 03:49:45 <gmaxwell> Probably. Though its not trivial.
 594 2014-02-21 03:49:46 <justanotheruser> s/isn't/isn't additional
 595 2014-02-21 03:49:50 <linagee> gmaxwell: I do suspect ethereum of using sockpuppet accounts to make their project look larger than it actually is. pretty clever though.
 596 2014-02-21 03:49:58 <gmaxwell> andytoshi has created a proof for schnorr which I buy.
 597 2014-02-21 03:50:36 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: Is schnorr easier?/
 598 2014-02-21 03:50:48 <justanotheruser> Damn, I've got to learn to ask question.
 599 2014-02-21 03:51:06 <justanotheruser> Is it easier to make such a proof for schnoor?
 600 2014-02-21 03:51:06 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: yes, its much easier to analyize... which is why there are security proofs for it and few/none for dsa.
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 602 2014-02-21 03:52:38 <kuzetsa> I sure hope that blockchain data reindex (re-creating fresh non-bloated / non-corrupt rev???? files) didn't hurt anyone else's performance on anyone else's instance on this xen node O_O
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 604 2014-02-21 03:54:10 <kuzetsa> sipa: again, thanks. it took less than 5 hours from the time I deleted the rev???? files, realized I might crash without them & proceded to reindex and whatnot
 605 2014-02-21 03:54:42 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: I'm glad you got sorted.
 606 2014-02-21 03:54:53 <kuzetsa> if I end up having to do it again I'll see if I can reboot the xen instance with more ram for a few hours (I'm pretty sure it's prorated by the datacenter if I do that and then step back down to the 1 gig ram tier)
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 609 2014-02-21 03:55:31 <kuzetsa> like I think some sort of cache option was recommended to speed up the reindex, but I can't remember the exact command line flag
 610 2014-02-21 03:56:05 <kuzetsa> dbcache maybe?
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 612 2014-02-21 03:56:37 <kuzetsa> is there an upper limit to how much ram I might throw at it before I get diminishing returns for performance gains?
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 615 2014-02-21 03:57:36 <kuzetsa> and/or maybe is there a lower limit so that I might've done it with just the ram I had available since this server isn't used for hardly anything other than a stable long-running well-connected bitcoin node
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 618 2014-02-21 03:58:33 <kuzetsa> I'm not likely to enable it 24/7 since I also use it as my build environment for various binary packages for ... science or something O_O
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 667 2014-02-21 04:52:52 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3716
 668 2014-02-21 04:54:14 sbrossie has joined
 669 2014-02-21 04:55:24 <freewil> Luke-Jr: do you still have that webpage up that shows the breakdown of nodes by version?
 670 2014-02-21 04:55:30 <Luke-Jr> yes
 671 2014-02-21 04:55:43 <Luke-Jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html
 672 2014-02-21 04:55:47 <freewil> thanks
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 685 2014-02-21 05:19:50 <Michail1> EXCEPTION: St9bad_alloc
 686 2014-02-21 05:19:50 <Michail1> std::bad_alloc
 687 2014-02-21 05:19:50 <Michail1> bitcoin in ProcessMessages()
 688 2014-02-21 05:19:53 <Michail1> Ideas?
 689 2014-02-21 05:23:52 <maaku> analogrithems: this is a perfectly fine channel for talking about recommended procedures for wallet authors
 690 2014-02-21 05:24:06 <maaku> just not the "why does gox do it this way?" questions - we're not gox support
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 697 2014-02-21 05:28:35 <gmaxwell> Michail1: 32 bit system? what bitcoin version?
 698 2014-02-21 05:30:23 <Michail1> raspberry pi.   bitcoind   0.8.6
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 700 2014-02-21 05:30:41 <Luke-Jr> LOL
 701 2014-02-21 05:30:44 <Michail1> :)
 702 2014-02-21 05:30:50 agricocb has joined
 703 2014-02-21 05:31:10 <Michail1> Come on Luke-Jr, you know you're jealous.  :)
 704 2014-02-21 05:33:09 <Luke-Jr> of a poorly performing SBC with known hardware flaws, running probably the most proprietary architecture ever?
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 707 2014-02-21 05:34:33 <Michail1> yes, that.  :)
 708 2014-02-21 05:36:04 <Luke-Jr> Michail1: your question wasn't serious, I presume?
 709 2014-02-21 05:36:47 <Michail1> Well, restarted bitcoind and it's working.  Has passed that block.  So, ETA to reindex is 9+ days..... The question with regards to the error was serious since I don't know what it was and couldn't find with google.
 710 2014-02-21 05:36:58 <Luke-Jr> …
 711 2014-02-21 05:37:15 <Luke-Jr> Michail1: there is about zero chance bitcoind will run on a RPi.
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 714 2014-02-21 05:38:15 <Michail1> zero chance?  Strange, I have it running on 4x pis now; hoever, haven't given them time to index completely.  Highest one is at 274100 blocks.
 715 2014-02-21 05:38:19 christo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 716 2014-02-21 05:38:46 <Luke-Jr> Michail1: at this time, it essentially requires a 64-bit computer
 717 2014-02-21 05:39:35 <Michail1> So, it will fail at a certain block and stop, or do you mean it will just be very very slow?
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 719 2014-02-21 05:39:50 <Luke-Jr> you'll probably see std::bad_alloc again
 720 2014-02-21 05:39:57 <Luke-Jr> that error essentially means "out of memory"
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 722 2014-02-21 05:40:34 <Michail1> Ahhh, thanks.   So, restarting will resolve assuming it doesn't corrupt chainstate/index.
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 726 2014-02-21 05:41:56 <justanotheruser> So would a fix to the malleability of ECDSA be a softfork?
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 730 2014-02-21 05:43:38 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: yes; but you'd need to study it in advanced maths to prove you even *can* fix it
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 733 2014-02-21 05:46:49 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: Can you estimate how much money would need to be thrown at the problem to prove whether you can fix it?
 734 2014-02-21 05:47:03 <Luke-Jr> no
 735 2014-02-21 05:47:36 <Luke-Jr> if I had to guess, I'd say an accurate estimate is as much work as actually doing it. but I don't have enough math background to know for sure if that's true or not.
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 738 2014-02-21 05:52:46 <justanotheruser> Do people generally pay PhD students for this kind of thing?
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 740 2014-02-21 05:53:27 <gmaxwell> andytoshi's been working on it. Not sure if he's made any headway on ECDSA though he did appear to produce a reasonable proof for schnorr.
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 743 2014-02-21 05:54:37 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: this is something that you don't have to be an uber math wiz to attempt. Since generally regular algebra rules apply. Probably getting more people attempting it will be helpful.
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 745 2014-02-21 05:56:50 <maaku> gmaxwell: also, it is in principle possible to soft-fork to use schnorr or lamport signatures, or something else which is proven non-malleable
 746 2014-02-21 05:57:01 <maaku> and in both those cases there would be reasons to do so anyway
 747 2014-02-21 05:57:20 <maaku> (compact multisig and quantum resistance, respectfully)
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 751 2014-02-21 05:58:25 <gmaxwell> not just quantum resistance. "Assumption resistant" since lamports only need a strong hash, while all other schemes need a strong hash plus some other assumption. (e.g. hardness of discrete log in some EC group)
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 755 2014-02-21 06:05:06 <maaku> BlueMatt: if I rebase a pull request, do I need to do anything to get the pull tester to try it again?
 756 2014-02-21 06:05:24 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty sure it will just run again.
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 765 2014-02-21 06:17:20 <maaku> gah now i have to find out why mingw doesn't support the POSIX function ffs
 766 2014-02-21 06:17:30 <maaku> - wait, i think I just did :)
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 770 2014-02-21 06:18:40 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: re IPC; if it can be reduced to a single channel, we have stdio portably
 771 2014-02-21 06:19:04 <Luke-Jr> maaku: you do know Windows is not POSIX-compatible, right? ;)
 772 2014-02-21 06:19:15 <Luke-Jr> maaku: and MinGW is not a POSIX layer
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 775 2014-02-21 06:22:39 <uiop> maaku: it may be helpful that gcc has __builtin_ffs(..)
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 778 2014-02-21 06:24:58 <uiop> Luke-Jr: or you can just carry around a pair of FILE*'s
 779 2014-02-21 06:26:20 <uiop> (although i couldn't find jgarzik's remark(s) that you're referring to, so i'm speaking with no context)
 780 2014-02-21 06:26:50 <maaku> Luke-Jr: that was my smiley
 781 2014-02-21 06:27:04 <Luke-Jr> uiop: -dev ML
 782 2014-02-21 06:27:31 <uiop> ah, i've been meaning to start reading that..
 783 2014-02-21 06:27:40 <maaku> uiop: i was hoping to avoid gcc dependency
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 786 2014-02-21 06:28:34 <jgarzik> uiop, http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/32006864/
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 789 2014-02-21 06:30:32 <Luke-Jr> maaku: static inline int ffs(const int i) { unsigned long rv; return _BitScanReverse(&rv, i) ? rv : 0; }
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 792 2014-02-21 06:31:47 <uiop> maaku: #define FFS(a)({uint64_t __b; asm("movq $64, %0\n\t" "bsf %1, %0" :"=r"(__b) :"r"(a)); __b;}) /* :) */
 793 2014-02-21 06:31:56 <wumpus> ah the good old ffs function :)
 794 2014-02-21 06:32:09 <Luke-Jr> uiop: that won't work on MIPS
 795 2014-02-21 06:32:15 <uiop> Luke-Jr: heh
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 799 2014-02-21 06:32:44 <wumpus> I thought the mesa codebase was swearing when I first encountered it
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 801 2014-02-21 06:33:04 <maaku> uiop: architecture dependency is worse than compiler dependency :)
 802 2014-02-21 06:33:33 <uiop> maaku: i couldn't find the C version in my files, so gave up the search and punted ;)
 803 2014-02-21 06:35:20 <maaku> _BitScanReverse is probably the best option on mingw32
 804 2014-02-21 06:35:38 <maaku> unfortunately I can't inline it because of a circular header dependency :(
 805 2014-02-21 06:36:55 <Luke-Jr> Don't Do That™
 806 2014-02-21 06:36:57 <gmaxwell> there is a fast CLZ implementation in C (plus ifdefs for BSR in gcc and msvc) in the opus codebase
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 808 2014-02-21 06:38:29 <maaku> thanks gmaxwell, I'll look at that
 809 2014-02-21 06:38:32 <maaku> Luke-Jr: don't do what?
 810 2014-02-21 06:39:41 <Luke-Jr> circular header :P
 811 2014-02-21 06:40:53 <maaku> ah well what I meant was this stuff would logically go in util.h, but I need to use it in uint256.h, which util.h includes
 812 2014-02-21 06:41:31 <uiop> ah, found BSR (and POPCOUNT) http://pastebin.com/wCD0d70P
 813 2014-02-21 06:41:51 <uiop> iirc bsf (ffs) can do w/out the popcount
 814 2014-02-21 06:42:00 <Luke-Jr> maaku: implement uint256::ffs! :P
 815 2014-02-21 06:42:04 <uiop> and it's almost identical to the bsr code
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 824 2014-02-21 06:50:28 <uiop> Luke-Jr: ah just saw your link, thx
 825 2014-02-21 06:50:50 <uiop> err, i meant jgarzik, thx
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 828 2014-02-21 06:54:05 <jgarzik> wumpus, I'll hack out getwalletinfo before bed
 829 2014-02-21 06:54:34 * jgarzik curses leveldb for not having a clean build, like we do
 830 2014-02-21 06:55:15 <uiop> sqlite has a clean build :)
 831 2014-02-21 06:55:49 <wumpus> jgarzik: #3717 was already updated to add it
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 833 2014-02-21 06:58:40 <jgarzik> wumpus, heh, that was fast.  Looks like he did the right thing, and copied over all the wallet items from 'getinfo'
 834 2014-02-21 06:59:38 <wumpus> jgarzik: yes looks good to me too
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 838 2014-02-21 07:03:09 <jgarzik> wumpus, except for the whole "doesn't compile" thing anyway ;p
 839 2014-02-21 07:03:21 <jgarzik> little details
 840 2014-02-21 07:04:17 <wumpus> oh yes it should at least pass the pull tester 
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 843 2014-02-21 07:07:28 <justanotheruser> Does anyone have complicated example scripts?
 844 2014-02-21 07:07:53 <Luke-Jr> sure
 845 2014-02-21 07:07:57 <Luke-Jr> testnet is full of them
 846 2014-02-21 07:08:32 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: Good suggestion
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 849 2014-02-21 07:11:21 <justanotheruser> Still is pretty tough to find interesting tx
 850 2014-02-21 07:13:59 <jgarzik> <petertodd> Oh, and tighten up the definition of OP_PUBKEY(s) in Solver() while you're at it to only 33 bytes or 65 bytes - current allows up to 120 bytes for no good reason.
 851 2014-02-21 07:14:08 <jgarzik> tempting
 852 2014-02-21 07:14:34 <jgarzik> make >33 non-standard
 853 2014-02-21 07:15:14 <wumpus> wouldn't a compromise for OP_RETURN also be to allow 32 at most? why do we allow 80?
 854 2014-02-21 07:15:20 <maaku> jgarzik: wouldn't that break non-compressed pubkey addresses?
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 856 2014-02-21 07:15:37 <maaku> wumpus: design by committee?
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 858 2014-02-21 07:16:09 <jgarzik> wumpus, 2x 256-bit hash or 1x SHA512 hash + some extra for type specifiers
 859 2014-02-21 07:16:19 <wumpus> as @gmaxwell said a few days ago 32 would be enough to store any kind of hash within the security parameters of bitcoin itself
 860 2014-02-21 07:16:29 <jgarzik> maaku, it would make uncompressed non-standard
 861 2014-02-21 07:16:56 <gmaxwell> making uncompressed non-standard in v3 txn is attractive.
 862 2014-02-21 07:17:04 <wumpus> maaku: yes I meant a compromise between the people that want to disable it commpletely and those that want it enabled
 863 2014-02-21 07:17:08 <gmaxwell> (not forbidden just non-standard)
 864 2014-02-21 07:17:14 <jgarzik> nod
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 866 2014-02-21 07:17:28 <maaku> jgarzik: what I mean is, I can't control whether someone sends me money using one of my old uncompressed addresses
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 868 2014-02-21 07:18:05 <jgarzik> wumpus, existing sketches and some not-widely-deployed code does stuff like "BOND" + hash, to enable easy, decentralized public auditing
 869 2014-02-21 07:18:11 <maaku> it'd be annoying if there were no way to spend it in a relayable transaction
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 879 2014-02-21 07:25:55 <wumpus> maaku: what is the idea behind thia base-32 encoding (#3713), to replace base-58?
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 884 2014-02-21 07:30:25 <jgarzik> maaku, a fair point
 885 2014-02-21 07:30:52 <Luke-Jr> maaku: you can refuse to accept it as payment
 886 2014-02-21 07:31:06 <gmaxwell> wumpus: at least the way I understood it is that its an alterntive encoding that might be better than base58check for some future things.
 887 2014-02-21 07:31:08 ericmuyser has joined
 888 2014-02-21 07:31:13 <Luke-Jr> maaku: unless you tell them to send it there, they have no reasonable expectation that you can access it
 889 2014-02-21 07:31:38 area_ has left ()
 890 2014-02-21 07:31:39 <Luke-Jr> maaku: did you see my earlier base32 encoding suggestion btw?
 891 2014-02-21 07:31:48 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, while true, I can see a situation out there, somewhere, where an unfortunate user is trapped by this decision unknowningly
 892 2014-02-21 07:32:12 <gmaxwell> sadly we can't catch cases of it in scriptpubkeys usefully.
 893 2014-02-21 07:32:13 <wumpus> gmaxwell: for addresses I prefer error detection to error correction, I'd rather be reminded that I typed/copypasted something wrong and make my own correction than have the algorithm do it maybe the wrong way around
 894 2014-02-21 07:32:34 area has joined
 895 2014-02-21 07:32:37 <Luke-Jr> maaku: http://bitcointroll.org/?topic=205878
 896 2014-02-21 07:32:41 <wumpus> maybe it's different for privkeys
 897 2014-02-21 07:32:42 <gmaxwell> wumpus: a valid usecase for this would be disabling the correction and getting stronger detection as a result.
 898 2014-02-21 07:32:42 <jgarzik> wumpus, +100
 899 2014-02-21 07:32:57 * jgarzik also strongly dislikes error correction
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 901 2014-02-21 07:33:01 <gmaxwell> wumpus: a key point is that having correction _possible_ doesn't make detection worse.
 902 2014-02-21 07:33:23 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well then I have nothing against using it with correction disabled
 903 2014-02-21 07:33:51 <gmaxwell> (I fully agree on that, btw, and NAKed luke's old patch to fix non-base58 characters for that reason.  Though for some things correction probably makes sense at least to have available)
 904 2014-02-21 07:34:04 <gmaxwell> also, base 58 is a @#$@#$ @$#@$@# to _read_ because of the mixed case.
 905 2014-02-21 07:34:13 <wumpus> the current 32-bit 'checksum' may not be thorough enough
 906 2014-02-21 07:34:18 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, true dat
 907 2014-02-21 07:34:40 <wumpus> indeed, the mixed case is annoying
 908 2014-02-21 07:34:54 <gmaxwell> I've done trades a couple of times involving reading bitcoin addresses, I'm pretty confortable reading data, but the mixed case has always tripped me up.
 909 2014-02-21 07:35:12 * Luke-Jr also
 910 2014-02-21 07:35:20 <jgarzik> if you change the bitcoin address format, add some hyphens or space periodically
 911 2014-02-21 07:35:41 <maaku> Luke-Jr: no, i hadn't seen it yet
 912 2014-02-21 07:35:55 <maaku> gtw, i found boost::heap::detail::log2 which looks like the best solution
 913 2014-02-21 07:35:57 <Luke-Jr> maaku: maybe some ideas to borrow in it
 914 2014-02-21 07:36:05 <wumpus> can we rename address to 'one-time payment key id' at the same time? :)
 915 2014-02-21 07:36:23 <gmaxwell> the bummer about the base32 stuff is that its rather long.
 916 2014-02-21 07:36:26 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: "invoice id" is so much shorter :P
 917 2014-02-21 07:36:34 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes that's even better
 918 2014-02-21 07:36:41 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I just mean, everything but address really
 919 2014-02-21 07:36:46 <Luke-Jr> hehe
 920 2014-02-21 07:36:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: we can throw in P2SH^2 at the same time :P
 921 2014-02-21 07:37:04 <gmaxwell> I'm also skeptical that maaku's CRC approach is really all that much simpler than a 6 bit RS code, but don't have time to go implement the alternative for comparison.
 922 2014-02-21 07:37:24 <gmaxwell> gah. 5 bit, I don't know why I keep thinking 6 bit.
 923 2014-02-21 07:37:24 <wumpus> and inserting hyphens is a good idea too - having seperate groups makes it easier to distinguish visually
 924 2014-02-21 07:38:15 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: underscores if we want to appease the "double-click must highlight it all" crowd :p
 925 2014-02-21 07:38:23 <wumpus> though those should be optional and just part of the visual representation, not enforced
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 928 2014-02-21 07:38:55 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: but is that so important? people use spaces between IBAN numbers for example
 929 2014-02-21 07:39:06 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: dunno
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 931 2014-02-21 07:39:19 <Luke-Jr> reminder: hopefully addresses will die soonish anyway? :P
 932 2014-02-21 07:39:40 <gmaxwell> not likely. :(
 933 2014-02-21 07:39:41 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: besides, who uses IBAN numbers? O.o
 934 2014-02-21 07:39:54 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: everyone here in europe?
 935 2014-02-21 07:39:56 <gmaxwell> PP is not a replacement for a huge swath of how bitcoin is used.
 936 2014-02-21 07:40:11 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I see.
 937 2014-02-21 07:40:15 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: we use IBANS for every bank transfer now
 938 2014-02-21 07:40:20 <wumpus> even within the country
 939 2014-02-21 07:40:28 <Luke-Jr> bank transfers are very rare in the US
 940 2014-02-21 07:40:37 <maaku> wumpus: the impetus was as an improvement to "helpdesk identifiers" like the proposed ntxid, but it's designed to be useful as a replacement for base58 as well
 941 2014-02-21 07:40:38 <Luke-Jr> outside of things like checks
 942 2014-02-21 07:40:49 <Luke-Jr> and debit cards
 943 2014-02-21 07:41:00 <maaku> of course I don't expect to actually replace base58 for addresses, but if someone is designing something new...
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 946 2014-02-21 07:42:24 <maaku> wumpus: how is error correction worse than error detection? with correction you know or can be told where the error is, and go back to verify
 947 2014-02-21 07:42:25 <jgarzik> credit card numbers use spaces. phone numbers and SSNs use dashes, or more recently, periods.
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 951 2014-02-21 07:42:44 <jgarzik> I would use a space or hyphen, matching existing popular systems.
 952 2014-02-21 07:42:47 <maaku> underscores unfortunately don't work on all browsers for click-to-select
 953 2014-02-21 07:43:16 <Luke-Jr> maaku: lolwut? underscore is \w
 954 2014-02-21 07:43:31 <wumpus> maaku: I wouldn't like error correction for addresses or other IDs that are used in non-reversible operations -- that's just a personal preference
 955 2014-02-21 07:43:51 <gmaxwell> ADl3j2q7hg_hlrk0pxcbb_4pchq1flmh_7w4cz8s0g8_98r4q713hx_hfm8grwzkr  I guess that isn't so bad as an address sort of thing.
 956 2014-02-21 07:44:22 <gmaxwell> maaku: what sparsification of 36->32 are you using? (I just left out aeio because vowels and io are somewhat ambigious)
 957 2014-02-21 07:44:30 <maaku> wumpus: the point is instead of "you typed something wrong." the UI could instead say "did you mean a u instead of a y for digit 12 (highlighted in red)?"
 958 2014-02-21 07:44:52 <maaku> gmaxwell: z-base-32
 959 2014-02-21 07:45:14 <maaku> http://philzimmermann.com/docs/human-oriented-base-32-encoding.txt
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 961 2014-02-21 07:45:34 <gmaxwell> maaku: I've had problems in the past with base32/base36 encodings where "fuckyou" is possible.
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 963 2014-02-21 07:46:38 <wumpus> so even more vanity bullshit
 964 2014-02-21 07:46:44 <maaku> gmaxwell: meh, i prefer to think internationally - there's no way we'd be able to outlaw that for all languages
 965 2014-02-21 07:47:36 <gmaxwell> maaku: getting zotted by automatic filtering is kinda lame though.
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 967 2014-02-21 07:48:03 <gmaxwell> esp with the scunthorpe proble,
 968 2014-02-21 07:48:05 <gmaxwell> er problem
 969 2014-02-21 07:48:43 <wumpus> maaku: okay that could be useful; though, in practice, finding the 12th digit is almost as much work as just re-checking all the previous digits as well
 970 2014-02-21 07:48:57 <wumpus> gmaxwell: what would be the solution to that? a non-alphabetical encoding?
 971 2014-02-21 07:49:04 <gmaxwell> maaku: I'd suggest UI wise that you not actually tell them the correct digit, just the position.
 972 2014-02-21 07:49:12 <gmaxwell> (in order to avoid dilluting the checking power)
 973 2014-02-21 07:49:40 <wumpus> maaku: but yes for the UI it can be useful indeed
 974 2014-02-21 07:49:46 <maaku> gmaxwell: true
 975 2014-02-21 07:50:04 <gmaxwell> wumpus: the normal fix is to leave out vowels. Which as maaku points out is not entirely language neutral (but works better than you might guess, esp since a lot of filtering— even world wide— is english centric.)
 976 2014-02-21 07:51:19 <maaku> well leaving out (most) vowels gets sufficient coverage, but at the cost of adding very confusing / confused combinations of characters (e.g. 1 and L)
 977 2014-02-21 07:51:47 <wumpus> even a fully numeric encoding could generate combinations that may be seen as 'profane' by some filters
 978 2014-02-21 07:52:25 <maaku> gmaxwell: what's an apples-to-apples comparison for RS bits?
 979 2014-02-21 07:52:32 <maaku> i calculated that somehwere but can't find it
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 981 2014-02-21 07:52:38 <gmaxwell> it's certantly impossible to fully thawrt stupidity. Though the bleeding can be reduced.
 982 2014-02-21 07:54:14 <wumpus> but yes, leaving out vowels seems like a good compromise
 983 2014-02-21 07:54:15 * warren adds that to the gmaxwell quote bank.
 984 2014-02-21 07:55:15 <gmaxwell> maaku: if the RS is implemented over GF(2^32) you get  check-digits/2 unknown position corrections, or check-digits known position corrections.  Though you are limited to 32 digits (including checks) in a coding group.
 985 2014-02-21 07:56:15 <gmaxwell> (IIRC though you can get check-digits worth of corrections with unknown positions with high probablity if you can use list-decoding)
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 988 2014-02-21 07:57:27 <gmaxwell> If your errors are IID at the word size level and boundary (e.g. each digit has a independant and equal chance of being either right or entirely wrong) you also get optimal error detection, no other coding scheme (of the same codeword size) can have higher performance.
 989 2014-02-21 07:58:07 <maaku> so 56 digits instead of 62 for a 256-bit number
 990 2014-02-21 07:58:25 <maaku> i must have done my math wrong because that's better than I thought
 991 2014-02-21 07:58:50 <maaku> though the reason for CRC was that Reed Solomon has way, way more complex error correction code
 992 2014-02-21 07:59:32 <maaku> you're limited to 31 digits per group, right?
 993 2014-02-21 07:59:36 <gmaxwell> It _should_ be possible to have a relatively compact table based implementation. Obviously the encode can and thats basically trivial.
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 995 2014-02-21 08:00:08 <maaku> wait, that math is wrong. you can't really leave out digits from a group with RS, can you?
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 997 2014-02-21 08:00:34 <maaku> wait, n/m, I'm tired; of course you can
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 999 2014-02-21 08:00:42 <maaku> they just take on known (zero) values
1000 2014-02-21 08:00:45 <wumpus> do keep in mind that alternate implementations need to implement this as well, so making the encoding very complex will introduce a lot of extra work overall
1001 2014-02-21 08:01:08 <maaku> wumpus: that's why I went with CRC polynomials
1002 2014-02-21 08:01:29 <maaku> significantly less space efficient, but trivially simple to implement
1003 2014-02-21 08:01:29 <gmaxwell> wumpus: encoding is trivial, its the error correcting decode which is potentially complex.
1004 2014-02-21 08:02:01 <maaku> error *detection* for reed solomon isn't as complicated though
1005 2014-02-21 08:02:03 <gmaxwell> considering that base58 check is actually a pretty big PITA, I don't think any of this compares poorly.
1006 2014-02-21 08:02:10 <wumpus> gmaxwell: with 'encoding' I mean the representation, including getting from and to it
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1009 2014-02-21 08:02:36 <gmaxwell> yea, error _detection_ for RS is the same complexity as the encode.  (you just reencode the decoded values and check)
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1011 2014-02-21 08:02:50 <maaku> wumpus: with RS, there are three operations: encoding, decoding with error detection, decoding with error correction - only the last is hard
1012 2014-02-21 08:03:01 <wumpus> yes base58 was a bad choice in retrospect, and also complex, but people have crossed that bridge already
1013 2014-02-21 08:03:02 <maaku> with CRC they are all easy, but space performance is poor
1014 2014-02-21 08:03:38 <gmaxwell> I'm still skeptical that can't be made easy for a small fixed field, but I'd need to go implement it to describe a easy implementation.
1015 2014-02-21 08:03:44 <maaku> (5 check digits per 26 digits imput, total group size of 31 for CRC, 2 check digits per 29 digits input, total group size of 31 for RS)
1016 2014-02-21 08:03:56 <wumpus> for easy implementation it could have been just <hexid><checksum> concatenated
1017 2014-02-21 08:04:52 <maaku> for detection, yes, correction is never that easy
1018 2014-02-21 08:05:12 <gmaxwell> maaku: we might want to coordinate with tor and see if they are interested in a new encoding for their NG hidden service stuff. (they will be increasing key sizes from 80 bits to 256ish bits)
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1021 2014-02-21 08:05:54 <maaku> gmaxwell: yes, that's a good idea
1022 2014-02-21 08:05:56 <gmaxwell> wumpus: all the encodings I think we'd consider would be logically <id><checksum> on a digit boundary level.
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1024 2014-02-21 08:06:44 <maaku> gmaxwell: and if you can find the time, a 5-bit RS coder would be interesting to see
1025 2014-02-21 08:07:15 <maaku> i don't think i will have time to write something like that for at least a month
1026 2014-02-21 08:07:40 <wumpus> gmaxwell: which would be enough IMO, no need for fancy error correction
1027 2014-02-21 08:08:36 <gmaxwell> wumpus: The nice thing is to have an encoding where fancy is possible where it would make sense. E.g. I think for private keys thats a nice extra bit of insurance.
1028 2014-02-21 08:08:49 <wumpus> just imagine the horror that whatever you are thinking up, people will end up implementing in PHP
1029 2014-02-21 08:08:52 <maaku> gmaxwell: an optimal RS coder wouldn't have the same error detection limits though would it?
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1031 2014-02-21 08:09:37 <gmaxwell> maaku: Can you clarify the question?
1032 2014-02-21 08:09:52 <wumpus> gmaxwell: storing the wallet / private keys in something that supports error correction would be very nice, though I'm not sure that you want to use error correction on a single key level in that case
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1034 2014-02-21 08:10:43 <gmaxwell> wumpus: well for storage you really want a different scheme because usually whole disk sectors are trashed at once.  Having an encoding for a private key have correction is handy if, e.g. you print out the keys.
1035 2014-02-21 08:10:58 <maaku> gmaxwell: the chance that more than one error in a group will result in a false negative in the error detector (either pass, or register as one correctable error)
1036 2014-02-21 08:11:11 <wumpus> but even in the case of printing, an 'attack' may wipe a whole region of your document
1037 2014-02-21 08:11:12 <maaku> for the CRC polynomial I coded up, the rate is approx 2^-25
1038 2014-02-21 08:12:12 <maaku> for 5-bit RS it would be 2^-5, right? you'd probably have to include some other sort of error detection
1039 2014-02-21 08:12:16 <wumpus> in any case, yes for private keys it's different...
1040 2014-02-21 08:12:37 <gmaxwell> maaku: if you only have one check digit. per group.
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1043 2014-02-21 08:13:56 <maaku> I'm assuming two for apples-to-apples parity (one correctable digit), so yes approx 2^-10
1044 2014-02-21 08:13:57 <gmaxwell> maaku: the limit of GF(2^5) is indeed interesting and might suggest that this ought to use a concatenated code, and that would make a good error correcting decoder more complicated. I'll thing about that some.
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1050 2014-02-21 08:20:09 <mrkent> gmaxwell, can the malleability actually result in theft?
1051 2014-02-21 08:20:50 <gmaxwell> mrkent: No.  You can creat a theft situation which involves malleability plus other mistakes, but thats true for lots of things.
1052 2014-02-21 08:20:50 <maaku> mrkent: not without some other money-losing mistake
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1054 2014-02-21 08:21:18 <gmaxwell> mrkent: basically IF you reissue transactions without double spending inputs then you will sometimes double pay people (with or without malleability)
1055 2014-02-21 08:21:25 <mrkent> Does the malleable transaction eventually go through?
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1058 2014-02-21 08:21:43 <maaku> mrkent: only one copy will go through
1059 2014-02-21 08:21:56 <maaku> *only one mutant
1060 2014-02-21 08:22:03 <gmaxwell> But if you were doing that horribly dumb thing, malleability may help the bad outcome happen.
1061 2014-02-21 08:22:05 <mrkent> What I heard is that gox will send a new transaction if the first withdraw was mutated
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1063 2014-02-21 08:22:34 <maaku> mrkent: yes, which is a money-losing mistake on their part that has nothing to do with malleability
1064 2014-02-21 08:22:37 <gmaxwell> mrkent: what mtgox was apparently doing is if a transaction didn't go through in 12 (?) hours they would automatically generate a new one and not double spend the original.
1065 2014-02-21 08:22:53 <gmaxwell> But thats broken regardless of malleability.
1066 2014-02-21 08:23:43 <maaku> it's like sending me cash in the mail, i tell you I didn't get it, so you send even more cash
1067 2014-02-21 08:23:53 <maaku> that's broken regardless of what's going on at the post office
1068 2014-02-21 08:23:58 <gmaxwell> (because you can have a case where it really hadn't gone through, and then both go through— say after the coins spent in the first one matures and some user pulls it from their api feed and rebroadcasts)
1069 2014-02-21 08:24:30 <gmaxwell> Had they been sure to always double spend the original there would be no chance of both going through.
1070 2014-02-21 08:24:30 <mrkent> gmaxwell, so if attacker was stealing from gox, they would need the mutated transactions to be on hold somehow for 12 hours to get paid twice?
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1072 2014-02-21 08:25:50 <mrkent> maaku, so you're saying gox sent out 2nd transaction after 12 hr, assuming the first one will be canceled and eventually come back to them?
1073 2014-02-21 08:25:58 <gmaxwell> mrkent: somehow isn't a mystery: mtgox was spending immature coins— which couldn't be relayed or mined for up to 100 blocks— at least since august last year, they were also producing about 1% of their signatures with invalid DER encodings that bitcoin 0.8 won't relay or mine.
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1075 2014-02-21 08:26:43 <gmaxwell> presumably those issues are why they had the automatic reissuing process in the first place. I was unable to find anyone else that was performing automatic transaction reissuing.
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1078 2014-02-21 08:27:27 <mrkent> gmaxwell, what do u mean by "matures"
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1080 2014-02-21 08:29:11 <mrkent> gmaxwell, I see.. very interesting
1081 2014-02-21 08:29:17 <mrkent> just parsed through all that
1082 2014-02-21 08:30:02 <gmaxwell> mrkent: newly generated bitcoins are prohibited from being spent by the hardcoded, enforced by all nodes, innate rules of bitcoin.  MTGox's custom wallet software is apparently unaware of this. (still! they appear to this moment still producing transactions which spend immature coins). Newly generated coins must mature for 100 blocks before they can be spent.
1083 2014-02-21 08:30:29 <gmaxwell> meaning that they produce transactions which all other bitcoin nodes will ignore for upto 100 more blocks, but then will relay and mine completely freely.
1084 2014-02-21 08:30:55 <mrkent> So they claimed that they used some custom software rather than bitcoind. How much validity is there to that?
1085 2014-02-21 08:31:00 <gmaxwell> Until/unless MTGox posts a list of theft transactions though the exact situations around this stuff will remain a mystery.
1086 2014-02-21 08:32:00 <gmaxwell> mrkent: their wallet stuff is certantly not bitcoind. It behaves entirely unlike it, including things like invalid der encodings and the spending of immature coins. IIRC before MT took over MTGOX he was working on his own implementation, so it seems all sensible to me.
1087 2014-02-21 08:32:04 <mrkent> gmaxwell, how does mtgox even have newly generated coins? Only miners have newly generated coins
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1089 2014-02-21 08:32:53 <mrkent> > relay and mine completely freely; by mine, u mean confirm?
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1091 2014-02-21 08:33:26 <gmaxwell> mrkent: because there are some pools like eligius and p2pool pay miners using freshly generated coins, and miners had put mtgox addresses in for their addresses.
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1093 2014-02-21 08:33:58 <gmaxwell> (a thing that was officially supported at mtgox too, AFAIK)
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1095 2014-02-21 08:34:27 <mrkent> gmaxwell, u mean the private key deposit method right?
1096 2014-02-21 08:34:34 <gmaxwell> no.
1097 2014-02-21 08:35:05 <lnovy> no the payment from mining is done by the coinbase transaction
1098 2014-02-21 08:35:23 <lnovy> and some miners just put a mtgox's one there
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1100 2014-02-21 08:35:55 <mrkent> gmaxwell, how does the mining pool spend freshly generated coins?
1101 2014-02-21 08:36:10 <lnovy> it does not... only way is the coinbase
1102 2014-02-21 08:37:05 <gmaxwell> They either generate them directly to where they want them to go— or they wait 100 blocks.
1103 2014-02-21 08:37:28 <mrkent> lnovy, what do u mean coinbase transaction?
1104 2014-02-21 08:37:37 <lnovy> ou boy...
1105 2014-02-21 08:37:56 <mrkent> i am assuming you don't mean the company
1106 2014-02-21 08:37:58 <gmaxwell> mrkent: you're really asking bitcoin 101 stuff, this is better discussion for #bitcoin
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1108 2014-02-21 08:38:07 <lnovy> mrkent: this is a transaction that specifies where the fees and mining reward is "send"
1109 2014-02-21 08:38:46 <mrkent> gmaxwell, I think your idea of 101 is a bit skewed as a developer
1110 2014-02-21 08:38:50 <lnovy> mrkent: also read this after on how eligius is paying miners: http://eligius.st/wiki/index.php/Capped_PPS_with_Recent_Backpay
1111 2014-02-21 08:39:05 <gmaxwell> mrkent: This is a development channel, Mrkent.
1112 2014-02-21 08:40:03 <mrkent> lnovy, I see. I sorta assumed that it was just sent to 1 address
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1114 2014-02-21 08:40:35 <gmaxwell> mrkent: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Vocabulary in any case. And you really should move these questions to #bitcoin
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1116 2014-02-21 08:40:42 <lnovy> mrkent: that's just the basic type, there are many others types of transactions in bitcoin... dig into wiki
1117 2014-02-21 08:40:50 <mrkent> So the freshly generated coin is automatically deposited into pool contributors accounts, some of which is mtgox address
1118 2014-02-21 08:40:58 * lnovy mutes
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1120 2014-02-21 08:42:14 <mrkent> gmaxwell, sure
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1124 2014-02-21 08:44:03 <lnovy> gmaxwell: not sure if this wasn't the same before... but... https://data.mtgox.com/api/1/generic/bitcoin/block_list_tx?depth=188112
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1126 2014-02-21 08:44:34 <lnovy> i've tried couple of blocks, complete clusterfuck
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1135 2014-02-21 08:52:43 <Persopolis> gents could you point me to any docs that defines what the minimal reqs are for interfacing with p2p network that still allows block data queries - i.e. lightweight version of bitcoind
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1137 2014-02-21 08:55:42 <wumpus> Persopolis: I suppose the goal is to query without being queried, so it'd make sense to use the same approach as existing SPV clients
1138 2014-02-21 08:56:33 <lnovy> Persopolis: try look at the some projects like BitcoinKit.framework
1139 2014-02-21 08:56:48 <lnovy> or there was something "new" recently, i cannot remember
1140 2014-02-21 08:57:09 <Persopolis> spv looks good wumpus - ty
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1146 2014-02-21 09:01:26 <wumpus> maaku: I suppose your per-data-item error correction method can be useful when representing seeds for deterministic wallets;  in this case there is only one item to encode/decode
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1175 2014-02-21 09:30:36 <Persopolis> picocoin seems to have good chunk of what i need :) thanks for the help guys
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1217 2014-02-21 10:08:58 <wallet42> http://coinlogic.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/the-protocol-1-block/ aww colors! :)
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1233 2014-02-21 10:29:50 <buhbuh> ;; market sell 10000
1234 2014-02-21 10:29:51 <gribble> Bitstamp | A market order to sell 10000 bitcoins right now would net 5107993.8231 USD and would take the last price down to 462.0000 USD, resulting in an average price of 510.7994 USD/BTC. | Data vintage: 0.0219 seconds
1235 2014-02-21 10:30:20 <SomeoneWeird> are there any public peers?
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1253 2014-02-21 10:49:32 <Mallstromm> ;;market sell 40000
1254 2014-02-21 10:49:33 <gribble> Bitstamp | A market order to sell 40000 bitcoins right now would net 13178919.4229 USD and would take the last price down to 100.0000 USD, resulting in an average price of 329.4730 USD/BTC. | Data vintage: 0.0548 seconds
1255 2014-02-21 10:49:53 <Mallstromm> :D
1256 2014-02-21 10:51:11 <buhbuh> :)
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1264 2014-02-21 10:55:22 <gribble> test
1265 2014-02-21 10:56:10 <lmatteis> guys
1266 2014-02-21 10:56:37 <lmatteis> where do i find info on which chain is accepted by nodes? is it the longest (as in amounts of blocks), or the chain with most work put into it?
1267 2014-02-21 10:58:26 <stonecoldpat> longest
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1269 2014-02-21 10:58:34 <stonecoldpat> as longest = most work put into it
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1274 2014-02-21 11:01:29 <maaku> buhbuh: do it.
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1276 2014-02-21 11:02:04 <maaku> lmatteis: most work
1277 2014-02-21 11:02:17 <maaku> *most work and valid
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1282 2014-02-21 11:05:24 <wumpus> yes the one where the sum of GetBlockWork() is largest ( https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.h#L805 ) is regarded as main chain
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1285 2014-02-21 11:08:05 <stonecoldpat> (this is because its provable that most work has gone into the longest chain - as you have got some results, if nodes were working longer on a single block, there is no evidence about the amount of work they haev actually done)
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1287 2014-02-21 11:08:22 <chairman_meow> hello
1288 2014-02-21 11:08:32 <ZjP> not the longest, but the one with highest difficulty adjusted length
1289 2014-02-21 11:09:56 <stonecoldpat> ZjP: it would be the longest, as nodes dont expect the most difficult block, but one that meets a certain threshold, in other words, 'the longest chain of blocks that meet the expected difficulty' - as solving anymore more difficult than required is wasted effort
1290 2014-02-21 11:11:13 <wumpus> but you could by accident find a block that is more difficult than necessary?
1291 2014-02-21 11:11:55 <wumpus> okay unlikely...
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1293 2014-02-21 11:12:20 <stonecoldpat> you could i guess, if its 1(a) vs 1(b) block, and b is more difficult... i guess b would be expected ?
1294 2014-02-21 11:12:33 <stonecoldpat> im not sure if the most difficult in that chance is expected, or just the one heard first
1295 2014-02-21 11:12:57 <stonecoldpat> i remember some discussion about it when the self-miner attack was proposed, but memory is a bit hazy
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1298 2014-02-21 11:13:25 <stonecoldpat> expected = accepted**
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1301 2014-02-21 11:15:32 <ZjP> stonecoldpat: I'm referring to two significantly different chains with different difficulty settings. It was my understanding that one with trivially small difficulty that was very long would be ignored.
1302 2014-02-21 11:15:48 <ZjP> (since it would have significantly less proven work)
1303 2014-02-21 11:15:53 <maaku> stonecoldpat: no the work is the difficulty, not the actual hash value
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1306 2014-02-21 11:16:46 <wumpus> people, please don't make jgarzik's proposal on the mailing list into a sandbox discussion, I think we can all agree that splitting off the wallet is a good thing for all kinds of reasons
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1309 2014-02-21 11:17:44 <gmaxwell> I had avoided that trap.
1310 2014-02-21 11:18:17 <stonecoldpat> ZjP: well, if you had one very long chain of blocks with weak difficulty, (weaker difficulty than expected by a client) then it wouldnt get accepted anyway
1311 2014-02-21 11:18:52 <gmaxwell> (almost started writing up a list of data leak bugs in firefox that didn't lead to code execution, but realized that it was a pointless tangent, regardless of the specific advantages I think everyone working on the software agrees we want that kind of seperation)
1312 2014-02-21 11:20:08 <stonecoldpat> ZjP: what i'm not sure about - if you had two chains of blocks with equal length, will the more difficult one to produce get accepted? as far as I was concerned its the first chain of blocks you hear first
1313 2014-02-21 11:21:39 <stonecoldpat> ZjP: because when the self-miner attack was proposed, people were talking about having a 'coin flip' to decide between blocks or rehashing the result and taking the highest/lowest value of that
1314 2014-02-21 11:22:46 <ZjP> stonecoldpat: I think you are correct, the first being accepted.
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1317 2014-02-21 11:27:37 <wumpus> yes, looks like if nChainWork is exactly the same it chooses the first being accepted, see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L78
1318 2014-02-21 11:28:42 <wumpus> then in the unlikely case if even that is the same (such as when loading from disk), it chooses the one with lowest pointer address
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1320 2014-02-21 11:29:56 <roybadami> How about choosing the one that was received at a time closest to its timestamp.  It has the advantage that premined blocks will almost always lose (because the preminer won't know at what time they will want to send the block).
1321 2014-02-21 11:30:30 <stonecoldpat> roybadami: you can't really trust timestamps, thats the main problem
1322 2014-02-21 11:30:42 <stonecoldpat> roybadami: timestamps are 'relatively' synced, not absolutely
1323 2014-02-21 11:31:01 <wumpus> you can never trust timestamps on the internet, one of the reasons that we need a block chain in the first place
1324 2014-02-21 11:31:41 <roybadami> You don't have to trust them.  But a timestamp of 'now' proves that either you generated the block just now, or you premined it knowing exactly when you intended to broadcast it
1325 2014-02-21 11:31:51 <roybadami> There is no way to fake that
1326 2014-02-21 11:32:00 <stonecoldpat> what do you mean by 'now'?
1327 2014-02-21 11:32:15 <wumpus> also, preminers? how are they a threat to an existing blockchain?
1328 2014-02-21 11:32:37 <roybadami> Oh, only that it makes the selfish mining attack harder to accomplish
1329 2014-02-21 11:32:42 <roybadami> selfish pool
1330 2014-02-21 11:32:44 <stonecoldpat> wumpus: i think hes talking about the selfish-miner attack, you keep a block secret until one is discovered
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1332 2014-02-21 11:33:12 <wumpus> right
1333 2014-02-21 11:33:19 <stonecoldpat> but to be fair, at the moment as far as im aware there is no evidence that it has even occurred
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1335 2014-02-21 11:37:04 <mrkent> gmaxwell, have you looked into bitiodine by any chance?
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1340 2014-02-21 11:39:06 <roybadami> Is there a good reason why Bitcoin doesn't just require all nodes to be ntp sync'd like pretty much every other cryptographic protocol does?
1341 2014-02-21 11:40:04 <gmaxwell> roybadami: becuase it would be unnecessary and it would introduce centeralization. (NTP is very much not a decenteralized protocol, and it's not even particularly secure as its normally deployed)
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1347 2014-02-21 11:46:22 <wumpus> I suppose in that case the bound 'blocks can have a timestamp up to two hours in the future' could be reduced a bit, but how would that concretely help?
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1352 2014-02-21 11:51:33 <gmaxwell> wumpus: ::nods:: the retarget interval is such that the 2-hour skew can at most give you a half a percent change in difficulty.
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1391 2014-02-21 12:36:01 <gpmnlxdw> If the script do not transfer all txs' btc to others, the remain is the fee, is it?
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1394 2014-02-21 12:37:44 <gpmnlxdw> e.g. one tx have 1 btc, then I transfter 0.9 to another address, and do not mention the recharged address, then the 0.1 btc will be looked as the fee?
1395 2014-02-21 12:38:01 <gpmnlxdw> in script not the btc client
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1397 2014-02-21 12:39:13 <wumpus> if the inputs add up to more than the outputs of a transaction, the diffrence is regarded as fee (this has nothing to do with scripts though)
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1437 2014-02-21 13:27:22 <JackH> do we have a list of good seed nodes that we can connect to, to catch up with the the blockchain?
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1440 2014-02-21 13:28:31 <lysobit> wumpus, gmaxwell: is this paste legit? I have no record of it in my scrollback. http://pastebin.com/DaSph9uT http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1yj5b5/unverified_pastebin_gmaxwell_irc_log_mtgox_was/
1441 2014-02-21 13:28:48 <gmaxwell> lysobit: it's from #bitcoin
1442 2014-02-21 13:28:52 <lysobit> ah
1443 2014-02-21 13:29:30 <Mallstromm> its legit
1444 2014-02-21 13:31:08 <Mallstromm> lysobit: gmaxwell also made an interesting calculation of the inputs being double spents, to try to have an aprox. (very rough) amount of *possible* stolen coins
1445 2014-02-21 13:31:17 lysobit is now known as musalbas
1446 2014-02-21 13:31:48 <Mallstromm> it was something like 1250 coins, seems something Gox can absorb without too much problem
1447 2014-02-21 13:32:27 <musalbas> Mallstromm: according to a Mt.Gox transparency report from 2012, 90-98% of Bitcoins were in cold storage. How could so much have been lost?
1448 2014-02-21 13:33:16 <musalbas> Mallstromm: though I suppose 1250 isn't much for an exchange
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1451 2014-02-21 13:34:09 <Mallstromm> musalbas: because Gox "willingly" sent those coins to the attackers - and in an automated way
1452 2014-02-21 13:34:31 <musalbas> Mallstromm: surely not the ones that are in cold storage, though
1453 2014-02-21 13:34:40 <Mallstromm> I mean, is not like the attackers hacked they hot wallet... They got a transaction of the same amount being re-broadcasted over and over
1454 2014-02-21 13:34:50 <gmaxwell> this is not #mtgox-chat guys.
1455 2014-02-21 13:35:19 <Mallstromm> (sorry)
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1516 2014-02-21 15:01:30 <Techhnyne> any devs here?
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1521 2014-02-21 15:08:46 <kinlo> Techhnyne: yes, this is after all a dev channel, but I guess they are a bit shy now :)
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1526 2014-02-21 15:13:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|kinlo: or just busy
1527 2014-02-21 15:14:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or asleep
1528 2014-02-21 15:14:08 <kinlo> shy I tell ya :p
1529 2014-02-21 15:14:22 <kinlo> (mind the smileys!)
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1547 2014-02-21 15:26:51 <wumpus> just ask the question
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1552 2014-02-21 15:30:55 <Techhnyne> haha
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1583 2014-02-21 15:54:51 <jouke> Is there a way to get the raw transaction out of the wallet? (wallet, so not mempool)
1584 2014-02-21 15:55:11 <Persopolis> yep
1585 2014-02-21 15:55:22 <Persopolis> json rpc
1586 2014-02-21 15:56:00 <Persopolis> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_Calls_list
1587 2014-02-21 15:56:14 <jouke> It is a wallet transaction
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1589 2014-02-21 15:56:41 <jouke> it is a transaction that is only in my wallet
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1591 2014-02-21 15:57:18 <Persopolis> you can do either - you can look at all blocks with all transactions or query your own wallet - look at the link mate
1592 2014-02-21 15:57:27 <Techhnyne> hey guys  so i have an idea for a coin but i would like it based off btc but be able to change between sha and script at set difficulties   is that possible?
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1595 2014-02-21 15:58:23 <jouke> Persopolis: it is only in my wallet, not in any block.
1596 2014-02-21 15:58:42 <jouke> and since it is only in my wallet, getrawtransaction doesn't work.
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1598 2014-02-21 15:59:47 <Luke-Jr> Techhnyne: scamcoins are off-topic in #bitcoin*
1599 2014-02-21 16:00:00 <Michail1> :)
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1602 2014-02-21 16:00:30 <Techhnyne> sorry it is not a scam coin, its a coin idea that would  take btc place if thats what your worried about
1603 2014-02-21 16:00:41 <Luke-Jr> Techhnyne: it's off-topic.
1604 2014-02-21 16:00:57 <Techhnyne> great  well off topic can someone answer me of pm me
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1606 2014-02-21 16:01:06 <Techhnyne> or* pm me
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1611 2014-02-21 16:02:26 <Persopolis> jouke - you can do any block - not just your wallet
1612 2014-02-21 16:02:48 <Persopolis> I pulled off 50,000 blocks last night using the rpc
1613 2014-02-21 16:03:16 <wumpus> jouke: gettransaction in master has a 'hex' field
1614 2014-02-21 16:03:35 <wumpus> jouke: in 0.8.x there is no way to get that information
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1620 2014-02-21 16:05:07 <Persopolis> but you can get the transaction data using get block
1621 2014-02-21 16:05:13 <wumpus> jouke: see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/3a1c20b and https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/05add3f , should be possible to cherry-pick them into 0.8.6
1622 2014-02-21 16:05:23 <wumpus> Persopolis: not if the transaction is not in a block but only in a wallet
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1627 2014-02-21 16:06:04 <wumpus> Persopolis: for example if it is a conflicted transaction that has been ejected from the mempool and will never be mined
1628 2014-02-21 16:06:24 <Persopolis> perhaps take a step back  - what are you trying to do jouke?
1629 2014-02-21 16:06:31 <Techhnyne> does btc algo , or any algo allow for it to switch algo types after reaching certain difficulty?
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1632 2014-02-21 16:07:25 <Luke-Jr> !ops Techhnyne is flaunting the rules, and an idiot
1633 2014-02-21 16:07:26 <gribble> Error: "ops" is not a valid command.
1634 2014-02-21 16:07:32 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
1635 2014-02-21 16:08:10 <kinlo> jouke: 0.9 will have a function to remove those stuck transactions, pywallet can fix those stuck transactions for now
1636 2014-02-21 16:08:20 <Techhnyne> Luke-Jr is a lil panzy and likes to cry
1637 2014-02-21 16:08:48 <wumpus> Techhnyne: please take non-development talk to #bitcoin
1638 2014-02-21 16:09:07 <Luke-Jr> sigh, now I have to find an op there too
1639 2014-02-21 16:09:08 <kinlo> jouke: or at least I saw that patch being submitted to 0.9, dunno if it is already accepted
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1641 2014-02-21 16:09:21 <jouke> kinlo: it seems to be a double spent and I want to try to find some more info on it.
1642 2014-02-21 16:09:27 <Persopolis> wumpus - I misread what jouke had said - I thought he was asserting the API does not give him anything from outside of his wallet
1643 2014-02-21 16:09:31 phungus_ is now known as phungus
1644 2014-02-21 16:09:33 <Techhnyne> wumpus im asking a simple question that i should be able to get an answer from devs  if any of you here really are devs
1645 2014-02-21 16:09:34 * wumpus wonders where he can get a banhammer
1646 2014-02-21 16:09:45 <kinlo> jouke: you can just dump the wallet.dat with berkley tools
1647 2014-02-21 16:09:54 <kinlo> and examine every record inside it
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1649 2014-02-21 16:10:01 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: looks like nanotube and gavinandresen have +F here
1650 2014-02-21 16:10:04 <Luke-Jr> and jgarzik
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1653 2014-02-21 16:11:01 <helo> o/
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1655 2014-02-21 16:11:22 <wumpus> woohoo
1656 2014-02-21 16:11:35 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: /msg chanserv flags #bitcoin-dev wumpus +o
1657 2014-02-21 16:11:50 * Luke-Jr wouldn't mind it either
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1668 2014-02-21 16:20:33 <Persopolis> wumpus so does listtransactions not give you list of transaction for your wallet? and then can you not getrawtransaction?
1669 2014-02-21 16:20:33 <dhill> what would be the implications of bitcoind inv'ing its mempool on peer connect?
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1683 2014-02-21 16:24:40 <wumpus> Persopolis: getrawtransaction will only get you transactions from the memory pool
1684 2014-02-21 16:25:00 <wumpus> Persopolis: and the blockchain w/ -txindex option
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1690 2014-02-21 16:26:47 <Persopolis> so a failed transaction will be in neither - but the wallet still records it somewhere?
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1693 2014-02-21 16:28:17 <wumpus> right
1694 2014-02-21 16:28:28 <wumpus> the wallet remembers everything, for forensics and stuff
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1697 2014-02-21 16:29:02 <Persopolis> wierd that it provides no api to extract it :S
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1701 2014-02-21 16:29:31 <wumpus> Persopolis: an API was introduced for that, read a few messages back
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1705 2014-02-21 16:32:06 <Persopolis> clearly having a stupid day... ty
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1743 2014-02-21 17:09:50 <maaku> Luke-Jr: does Eligius accept OP_RETURN data outputs?
1744 2014-02-21 17:10:28 <shaileshg> maaku: yes
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1747 2014-02-21 17:10:57 <Luke-Jr> maaku: not intentionally.
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1749 2014-02-21 17:11:35 <maaku> you've fixed it right, so it no longer does?
1750 2014-02-21 17:11:42 <Luke-Jr> not sure
1751 2014-02-21 17:11:48 <Luke-Jr> working on a 0.9-based miner branch now
1752 2014-02-21 17:11:50 <shaileshg> Luke-Jr: how does coinbase / blockchain run their wallet service.. or how to run one? what would be relationship between users, wallet, account and addresses?
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1754 2014-02-21 17:11:53 <Luke-Jr> bloom_tests.cpp:49:5: warning: this decimal constant is unsigned only in ISO C90 [enabled by default]
1755 2014-02-21 17:11:55 <Luke-Jr>      CBloomFilter filter(3, 0.01, 2147483649, BLOOM_UPDATE_ALL);
1756 2014-02-21 17:11:58 <Luke-Jr> ^ any ideas what this is about?
1757 2014-02-21 17:12:35 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: why?
1758 2014-02-21 17:12:59 <maaku> thanks Luke-Jr, responding to forum people who think the key to using OP_RETURN is just to submit it to Eligius
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1760 2014-02-21 17:13:18 <shaileshg> i want to make a demo service and want to understand how to implement web based wallet service for multiple users
1761 2014-02-21 17:14:14 <Luke-Jr> maaku: if it works right now, hopefully we will fix that soon
1762 2014-02-21 17:15:13 <shaileshg> ?
1763 2014-02-21 17:15:46 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: you'd just keep a tally if a user (or account) balance; when they send bitcoins, do it from a shared hot wallet; when they want to receive, generate a new address in the same hot wallet and flag it so you credit the correct account when bitcoins come in
1764 2014-02-21 17:16:04 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: ideally automate transfers to cold wallet based on needs
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1766 2014-02-21 17:17:15 <shaileshg> Luke-Jr: needs.. such as?
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1768 2014-02-21 17:17:23 <shaileshg> parameters to it
1769 2014-02-21 17:18:09 <shaileshg> user has one_to_one mapping to account?
1770 2014-02-21 17:18:11 <Luke-Jr> depends on daily bitcoin transfer volume
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1772 2014-02-21 17:18:33 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: well, you wouldn't use bitcoind accounts
1773 2014-02-21 17:18:44 <Luke-Jr> you *could* have a multi-account system for users
1774 2014-02-21 17:19:15 <shaileshg> Oh. Account on application / db level instead of bitcoind accounts?
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1776 2014-02-21 17:20:12 <Luke-Jr> yes
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1778 2014-02-21 17:20:27 <Luke-Jr> this way you can swap out the hot wallet as needed too
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1780 2014-02-21 17:21:55 <shaileshg> hmm
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1783 2014-02-21 17:23:18 <wumpus> Luke-Jr:  2147483649 needs an U
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1787 2014-02-21 17:24:26 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: eh.. and LL, it doesn't fit into a 32-bit integer
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1789 2014-02-21 17:25:25 <wumpus> and the third parameter of CBloomFilter is an unsigned int... so it will overflow
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1792 2014-02-21 17:26:31 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: what? C++ doesn't imply those as necessary? C does :/
1793 2014-02-21 17:26:37 <wumpus> the comment says ' Same test as bloom_create_insert_serialize, but we add a nTweak of 100' .. .and then it passes 2147483649 and not 100 as nTweak
1794 2014-02-21 17:26:48 sheepman is now known as afk!~sheepman@unaffiliated/sheepman|sheepman
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1796 2014-02-21 17:26:58 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: well plenty of problems, one of things I mentioned must be it
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1798 2014-02-21 17:28:44 <shaileshg> what is the diff between send coins and transfer coins here https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Accounts_explained#Typical_Uses
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1800 2014-02-21 17:29:57 <kjj> move adjusts the totally fictional balances that bitcoind maintains internally without any outward change
1801 2014-02-21 17:30:12 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: sending is to a bitcoin address
1802 2014-02-21 17:30:19 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: transferring is between bitcoind accounts
1803 2014-02-21 17:30:48 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: when you're doing a transfer between two accounts in the same system, you usually don't want to generate a blockchain transaction, just move the numbers around
1804 2014-02-21 17:30:54 <shaileshg> Luke-Jr: in transferring, if I move from my account to your, will it mean I can actually spend that less amount in future?
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1806 2014-02-21 17:31:23 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: accounts are allowed to go negative.
1807 2014-02-21 17:31:25 <Luke-Jr> in bitcoind
1808 2014-02-21 17:31:27 <shaileshg> hmm.. so move if its in same system, send if its between two systems
1809 2014-02-21 17:31:46 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: again, I would not recommend using bitcoind for accounting
1810 2014-02-21 17:31:53 <Luke-Jr> implement move in your own database
1811 2014-02-21 17:31:56 <kjj> accounts are almost certainly the wrong solution to whatever problem you are trying to solve
1812 2014-02-21 17:32:26 <Luke-Jr> kjj: no, he wants accounts
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1814 2014-02-21 17:32:39 <wumpus> indeed, don't use accounts, the implementation is likely not fit for whatever you're trying to do
1815 2014-02-21 17:32:50 <kjj> lots of people want accounts.  almost none of them are right
1816 2014-02-21 17:32:56 <shaileshg> Luke-Jr: but I have a basic concern.. if I implement move in my own database.. user can still use his private key to send money elsewhere unless I don't give him his private key
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1818 2014-02-21 17:33:15 <shaileshg> which I think is what coinbase etc are also doing
1819 2014-02-21 17:33:20 <kjj> someone should put a big "Don't use accounts, bad" across the top of that page
1820 2014-02-21 17:33:24 <wumpus> ehhhh if you give anyone private keys from your wallet.dat you're in for a lot of pain
1821 2014-02-21 17:33:35 <gmaxwell> we need a "canIbuildAsiteHandlingOtherPeoplesMoney.com" that just displays NO.
1822 2014-02-21 17:33:41 <Luke-Jr> shaileshg: there are no circumstances where you should be giving users private keys
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1824 2014-02-21 17:34:22 <shaileshg> wumpus: think of running a waller service provider.. i m not giving my private keys to anyone..
1825 2014-02-21 17:34:29 <shaileshg> Luke-Jr: hmm
1826 2014-02-21 17:34:33 <wumpus> gmaxwell: +1
1827 2014-02-21 17:34:54 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: i can write another faq.. this one is tricky because there is not really a common thread amongst these kinds of questions
1828 2014-02-21 17:34:56 <Luke-Jr> actually, I suspect the legal hurdles are harder than the technical ones
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1831 2014-02-21 17:37:10 <rebroad> when bitcoin-qt rescans as a result of an upgrade to 0.9, if the process is killed during the rescan, it has to do the whole rescan again when it's next run - can't it just continue from where it left off?
1832 2014-02-21 17:37:52 <gmaxwell> huh?!
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1834 2014-02-21 17:38:21 <gmaxwell> there is no "rescans as a result of an upgrade (from 0.8.x) to 0.9"
1835 2014-02-21 17:38:41 <rebroad> gmaxwell, oh... I assumed it was related to that.. so, why is it rescanning then..?
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1837 2014-02-21 17:39:28 <gmaxwell> no idea. see what your logs say right after startup?
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1870 2014-02-21 18:00:32 <Joric> hi everyone, gmaxwell
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1873 2014-02-21 18:02:34 <rebroad> does gmaxwell not get covered by "everyone"?!
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1876 2014-02-21 18:06:53 <shaileshg> rebroad: lols
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1884 2014-02-21 18:13:34 <Diablo-D3> hrm
1885 2014-02-21 18:13:42 <Diablo-D3> anyone hear of a company named libery teller?
1886 2014-02-21 18:13:46 <Diablo-D3> *liberty
1887 2014-02-21 18:13:57 <Diablo-D3> OH WAIT
1888 2014-02-21 18:13:59 <Diablo-D3> THEY'RE THEM
1889 2014-02-21 18:14:02 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit!
1890 2014-02-21 18:14:39 Adlai` has quit (Client Quit)
1891 2014-02-21 18:14:50 <Diablo-D3> my neighbor was like "hi, Im in boston atm, I just saw some interview going on for chinese TV about this company and they're some bitcoin company"
1892 2014-02-21 18:14:58 <Diablo-D3> and I never heard of them
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1896 2014-02-21 18:15:07 <Diablo-D3> they're the goddamned commercial bitcoin ATM company
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1969 2014-02-21 19:23:40 <Inkata> Hi all
1970 2014-02-21 19:24:13 <Inkata> How do I register to talk?
1971 2014-02-21 19:24:32 <kjj>  /msg nickserv help
1972 2014-02-21 19:24:37 <Inkata> oh, sorry, freenode nick register :-)
1973 2014-02-21 19:24:52 rdymac has joined
1974 2014-02-21 19:24:59 * Inkata blushes, already done it
1975 2014-02-21 19:25:00 tmsk_ has quit (Quit: tmsk_)
1976 2014-02-21 19:25:12 <kuzetsa> Inkata: did you identify?
1977 2014-02-21 19:25:22 <Inkata> kuzetsa: yes
1978 2014-02-21 19:25:29 rvhnt has joined
1979 2014-02-21 19:25:39 <kuzetsa> in that case I'm not sure what you're asking
1980 2014-02-21 19:25:50 <kuzetsa> the channel topic you mean?
1981 2014-02-21 19:26:00 JackH has joined
1982 2014-02-21 19:26:35 <Inkata> yes I saw register to talk, then I asked, then I realized it meant "register your nick" which I had done already
1983 2014-02-21 19:26:46 <kuzetsa> heh
1984 2014-02-21 19:27:34 <kuzetsa> it occurs to me now that you wouldn't have even been able to ask that question if you hadn't identified for your nick
1985 2014-02-21 19:27:47 <kuzetsa> so it was silly of me to ask if you identified
1986 2014-02-21 19:27:59 <Inkata> it was double silly, i'm sorry
1987 2014-02-21 19:28:02 <Inkata> If I want to develop something bitcoin related, do I always need to talk to an instance ob bitcoind? Is that always the entry point to the network?
1988 2014-02-21 19:29:17 dhill has joined
1989 2014-02-21 19:29:22 <kuzetsa> Inkata: it doesn't have to be bitcoind per-se, but on some level your "thing you develop which is bitcoin related" will need to have some sort of inter-connected (protocol level) connection to other bitcoin nodes (which might not neccessarily be all based on bitcoind / bitcoin-qt)
1990 2014-02-21 19:29:55 <kuzetsa> bitcoind is a common choice though, yeah.
1991 2014-02-21 19:30:24 chairman_meow has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1992 2014-02-21 19:30:28 <kuzetsa> some developers make an attempt at their own implementation of the bitcoin p2p protocol
1993 2014-02-21 19:31:26 <JackH> the most interesting about the bitcoin protocol is the block-chain validation process, soo much can be made around that - aka. colored coins for example
1994 2014-02-21 19:31:48 <Inkata> kuzetsa: thanks. Can I assume that big portals like, dunno, blockchain or cryptsy have already re-implemented the p2p protocol, and smaller projects marshall JSON in and out of a bitcoind instance?
1995 2014-02-21 19:32:13 * kuzetsa shrugs
1996 2014-02-21 19:32:26 <kuzetsa> I don't know what the stats are & who uses what
1997 2014-02-21 19:32:57 <kuzetsa> I just tend to trust in the fungability of bitcoin itself on a protocol level
1998 2014-02-21 19:33:45 <kuzetsa> on a protocol level, if the transactions are bouncing around and make it into blocks, doesn't matter how it was done so long as it's valid protocol (and by "valid" all that even means is "does not go against consensus of the bitcoin p2p network")
1999 2014-02-21 19:34:22 <Inkata> ok. I'll start small and learn the ropes talking to my bitcoind and then move up, if possible :-)
2000 2014-02-21 19:34:30 <kuzetsa> good luck :)
2001 2014-02-21 19:35:05 <kuzetsa> the bitcoind JSON-RPCs are pretty well documented for the most part
2002 2014-02-21 19:35:07 <Inkata> thanks kuzetsa, JackH
2003 2014-02-21 19:35:20 <kuzetsa> just as an example...
2004 2014-02-21 19:35:45 samesong has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2005 2014-02-21 19:36:03 <kuzetsa> the way a lot of mining pools operate is by talking to an instance of bitcoind via JSON-RPC and then they proxy out the data to miners using stratum protocol
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2011 2014-02-21 19:37:09 <Inkata> right! my p2pool node needs a local instance to talk to
2012 2014-02-21 19:37:13 super3 has joined
2013 2014-02-21 19:37:17 <Inkata> (i'm mining alts, tho)
2014 2014-02-21 19:37:47 <kuzetsa> yeah, same thing
2015 2014-02-21 19:38:03 <kuzetsa> except you can do things other than mining via the JSON-RPC API thinger
2016 2014-02-21 19:38:23 <kuzetsa> p2pool just happens to be a good example
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2018 2014-02-21 19:38:32 <super3> jgarzik, sorry on the incorrect source
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2034 2014-02-21 19:48:42 <richcollins> Is there a web wallet for testnet?
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2041 2014-02-21 19:54:18 <super3> richardu1, good question. if there isn't there probably should be
2042 2014-02-21 19:55:01 <super3> richardu1, http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/
2043 2014-02-21 19:55:07 <super3> richardu1, google...
2044 2014-02-21 19:55:29 dust-otc has joined
2045 2014-02-21 19:56:00 <dexX7> hi, getaccountaddress returns unexpected addresses which were not linked to the account label in the first place, at least not intentionally. http://i.imgur.com/pWGY7Pl.png ... anything i missed here?
2046 2014-02-21 19:59:35 tgerring has quit ()
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2048 2014-02-21 20:01:24 <richcollins> super3: Thanks I tried that one but it's giving me errors when I try to access my wallet
2049 2014-02-21 20:01:54 <super3> if you have an android phone i know there is a testnet wallet for that
2050 2014-02-21 20:02:00 <richcollins> Yeah I might just do that
2051 2014-02-21 20:02:03 <super3> would that serve your purposes?
2052 2014-02-21 20:02:05 antephialtic has joined
2053 2014-02-21 20:02:07 <super3> cool
2054 2014-02-21 20:02:08 <richcollins> don't want to download blockchain
2055 2014-02-21 20:02:20 <richcollins> and don't want to run 2 bitcoin-qt on same machine
2056 2014-02-21 20:02:35 <richcollins> thx
2057 2014-02-21 20:02:38 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
2058 2014-02-21 20:02:44 <super3> uh use a vm?
2059 2014-02-21 20:03:00 rdponticelli has joined
2060 2014-02-21 20:03:11 <super3> richardu1, posted this yesterday http://armoryguide.com/bootstrapping-the-blockchain/
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2080 2014-02-21 20:24:43 <vrs> can I rsync my blockchain from somewhere else instead of downloading it from the network? the download is coming in rather slowly
2081 2014-02-21 20:24:55 <vrs> I used bootstrap.dat and only roughly five weeks are left
2082 2014-02-21 20:26:20 <phillipsjk> how slowly?
2083 2014-02-21 20:26:51 dust-otc has joined
2084 2014-02-21 20:26:53 <phillipsjk> my machine needed 27hours of CPU time to catch up.
2085 2014-02-21 20:27:22 <vrs> 100kB/s, though it varies
2086 2014-02-21 20:27:39 sipa has joined
2087 2014-02-21 20:27:41 <vrs> and yeah this poor laptop overheated a few times in the process
2088 2014-02-21 20:28:00 <vrs> on one occasion corrupting something so I had to rescan
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2096 2014-02-21 20:31:52 <phillipsjk> I think I was getting about 300kB/s
2097 2014-02-21 20:32:01 <venzen_> vrs: 100kB/s is good going. i saw someone on the #p2pool channel earlier today who was downloading the blockchain on an Amazon virt server and he was getting 5kB/s
2098 2014-02-21 20:32:20 daybyter has joined
2099 2014-02-21 20:32:28 <vrs> 500k now even
2100 2014-02-21 20:32:33 <sipa> it almost entirely depends on whom you're downloading from
2101 2014-02-21 20:32:48 <phillipsjk> my bandwitdh usage is fogged by my mining blade.
2102 2014-02-21 20:34:03 <vrs> I operate a node whenever I can and I've seeded roughly a terabyte of bootstrap.dat over time
2103 2014-02-21 20:34:17 <venzen_> sipa> so getting a better speed is really up to knowing which are "faster" nodes?
2104 2014-02-21 20:35:02 <vrs> does a bitcoin client working over Tor stay within the network or does it always go over exits?
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2107 2014-02-21 20:35:28 <sipa> venzen_: for initial sync, you're best off using -connect=IP, with just a single IP
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2109 2014-02-21 20:35:55 <helo> vrs: see doc/tor.md
2110 2014-02-21 20:36:33 <sipa> vrs: it can do both
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2112 2014-02-21 20:37:57 <vrs> helo: ah nice, thanks
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2127 2014-02-21 20:46:27 <venzen_> sipa: the person was doing their first sync and asking #p2pool "How do I make it faster?" and people were saying "It takes a long time. Leave it running over-night." and then the OP wanted to know "How does one tell it to only connect to the fastest peers?!"
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2134 2014-02-21 20:48:38 <venzen_> Well, i was laughing, but then the above conversation raised the issue again. and one wonders: wouldn't it be great to connect to the fastest nodes everythime you have to catch up :)
2135 2014-02-21 20:48:53 Namworld has joined
2136 2014-02-21 20:49:22 <maaku> well that isn't really the solution
2137 2014-02-21 20:49:35 <maaku> rather it should smartly use whatever bandwidth is availble from each peer
2138 2014-02-21 20:49:41 <maaku> which we're working towards... slowly
2139 2014-02-21 20:50:00 <Persopolis> *claps* i.e. the point of a p2p
2140 2014-02-21 20:50:04 <sipa> also, the situation for catching up and for keeping in sync is different
2141 2014-02-21 20:50:11 <sipa> Persopolis: not really
2142 2014-02-21 20:50:16 <sipa> Persopolis: p2p == decentralization
2143 2014-02-21 20:50:31 <sipa> p2p filesharing is about using bandwidth from everyone
2144 2014-02-21 20:50:37 <sipa> but that isn't bitcoin's primary purpose
2145 2014-02-21 20:50:46 <sipa> for example, the situation for catching up and for keeping in sync is different
2146 2014-02-21 20:50:55 <phillipsjk> For keeping is sync, you only want the new block from 1 peer.
2147 2014-02-21 20:50:58 <sipa> for catching up, you indeed want max bandwidth
2148 2014-02-21 20:50:59 <Persopolis> sipa: yes but if people keep choosing fast ones to connect to, you don't have much of a decentralised network
2149 2014-02-21 20:51:10 <sipa> for keeping in sync, it's latency that matters
2150 2014-02-21 20:51:20 <sipa> minimizing roundtrips
2151 2014-02-21 20:51:39 <sipa> as what ultimately matters is propagation of blocks through the network
2152 2014-02-21 20:51:55 <phillipsjk> Sipa: if they have lots of peers, bandwidth matters too.
2153 2014-02-21 20:52:07 <sipa> true
2154 2014-02-21 20:52:18 <sipa> latency is of course limited to amount_of_data / bandwidth
2155 2014-02-21 20:53:11 <venzen_> for catch-up:  hence the workaround of getting the blockchain torrent file (fast) and then having less to catch up
2156 2014-02-21 20:53:37 <sipa> yeah
2157 2014-02-21 20:53:48 <sipa> once we have parallel block download, it will be a lot better
2158 2014-02-21 20:54:22 <Persopolis> the moment you start attempting to micromanage a p2p network, it stops being a p2p and turns into a hub and spoke architecture with lower resiliency
2159 2014-02-21 20:54:58 yubrew has joined
2160 2014-02-21 20:55:16 <sipa> Persopolis: it's an illusion that every node in the network is equal
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2162 2014-02-21 20:55:29 <sipa> some are just willing to contribute more than others, and that's fine
2163 2014-02-21 20:55:44 <sipa> we just need to make sure to not only connect to those who like to be connected to
2164 2014-02-21 20:55:53 <sipa> as that would make sybil attacks significantly easier
2165 2014-02-21 20:56:47 <Persopolis> sipa: ofc it is - but let the p2p do it's job - for sync and catchup the higher number of node connections gives you the aggregated bandwidth - thereafter your multiple connections serve as resilience for the network
2166 2014-02-21 20:57:22 <sipa> i'm not sure whether you're agreeing with me or not :)
2167 2014-02-21 20:57:38 <sipa> the current problem is that we only fetch blocks from a single peer, and in order
2168 2014-02-21 20:57:43 <sipa> that's planned to be changed
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2170 2014-02-21 20:58:19 <sipa> when that's the case, you let the p2p network do its job
2171 2014-02-21 20:58:28 <Persopolis> lol - mostly agreeing - but also defending my statement about p2p networks - but download of blocks being spread is a good idea imho
2172 2014-02-21 20:58:31 <sipa> and use some heuristics to pick faster peers
2173 2014-02-21 20:58:40 <sipa> meh, downloads blocks is easy
2174 2014-02-21 20:58:53 <sipa> it's just raw data, with no latency or indexing requirements
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2176 2014-02-21 20:59:00 <sipa> all it needs is diskspace and bandwidth
2177 2014-02-21 20:59:11 <sipa> which are easy, compared to latency and verification
2178 2014-02-21 20:59:34 <sipa> not saying you're wrong of course
2179 2014-02-21 20:59:43 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2180 2014-02-21 20:59:50 <sipa> and encouraging having nodes to download history from is important
2181 2014-02-21 21:00:21 <Persopolis> let me check I understood what you meant by "the current problem is that we only fetch blocks from a single peer" - fetch for what purpose are you talking about?
2182 2014-02-21 21:00:35 <sipa> catching up
2183 2014-02-21 21:00:39 <sipa> downloading history
2184 2014-02-21 21:00:47 <Persopolis> yep - so we are agreeing lol
2185 2014-02-21 21:00:55 bettertodaythant has joined
2186 2014-02-21 21:00:59 <vrs> "some are just willing to contribute more than others, and that's fine" this, I have 100mbit flat here and whatever my tor node doesn't take up, I'm happy to fill with blockchain traffic
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2188 2014-02-21 21:01:18 <vrs> ("here" meaning one of my servers, not my home sadly)
2189 2014-02-21 21:01:29 <sipa> i'm just saying that decentralization of verification is a much harder and more important problem than spreading the blockchain around
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2193 2014-02-21 21:02:03 <Persopolis> ofc - my statement was purely in the context of catchup / first sync
2194 2014-02-21 21:03:25 <vrs> well if the network was efficient at spreading the blockchain arond, we wouldn't need torrents
2195 2014-02-21 21:04:00 <sipa> vrs: sure
2196 2014-02-21 21:04:06 <sipa> that's just a temporary hack
2197 2014-02-21 21:04:46 <sipa> or rather, i don't mind there being *many* ways to acquire blockchain data
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2199 2014-02-21 21:04:52 <sipa> including a torrent
2200 2014-02-21 21:05:02 <sipa> but the reason for its existance now is just because the alternative sucks
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2202 2014-02-21 21:05:41 <Persopolis> sipa what's the proposed solution for spready block downloads - given the prev/next block chaining, I assume some other mechanism is required to partition the requests to multiple sources
2203 2014-02-21 21:06:18 <Persopolis> spreading*
2204 2014-02-21 21:07:02 <sipa> Persopolis: already implemented
2205 2014-02-21 21:07:22 <sipa> Persopolis: i've been working (slowly, very slowly...) on headers-first sync
2206 2014-02-21 21:07:35 <sipa> where the client first downloads (and verifies) just the block headers
2207 2014-02-21 21:07:47 <sipa> including verification of PoW
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2209 2014-02-21 21:08:12 <sipa> and then just fetches the blocks it known to be almost-certainly-valid from all its peers that are caught up as well
2210 2014-02-21 21:08:22 <sipa> out-of-order
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2213 2014-02-21 21:10:39 <Persopolis> fair enough - btw how compressible are the raw blocks
2214 2014-02-21 21:11:15 <sipa> not much
2215 2014-02-21 21:11:30 <sipa> maybe 40% with much effort
2216 2014-02-21 21:13:00 <Persopolis> not worth the load on the transmitting node then
2217 2014-02-21 21:14:08 <abishek> is it possible to retrieve the sender address from a particular transaction?
2218 2014-02-21 21:14:43 <abishek> i am able to get the from address from the getrawtransaction method, but is that address always right?
2219 2014-02-21 21:15:08 <sipa> abishek: bitcoin transactions do not have a 'from' address
2220 2014-02-21 21:15:52 <sipa> abishek: what exists is "the address the coins consumed by the transaction previously belonged to", but this is almost always useless information
2221 2014-02-21 21:15:57 <abishek> sipa, doing `$bitcoinobj->decoderawtransaction($bitcoin->getrawtransaction('txid')); shows the from address, can you clarify what that is
2222 2014-02-21 21:16:10 <abishek> oh ok
2223 2014-02-21 21:16:13 <sipa> eh no, it is not there
2224 2014-02-21 21:16:30 <sipa> there's only the input coins, and the output addresses and amounts
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2227 2014-02-21 21:18:23 <jgarzik> super3, no worries
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2249 2014-02-21 21:33:31 <BCB> can I rm my debug.log if it gets too large
2250 2014-02-21 21:35:17 <vrs> yes
2251 2014-02-21 21:35:29 <vrs> you can also turn it off
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2254 2014-02-21 21:38:55 <phillipsjk> does it automatically get rotated at all?
2255 2014-02-21 21:40:55 <sipa> at restart
2256 2014-02-21 21:40:59 <sipa> at startup, rather
2257 2014-02-21 21:41:53 <phillipsjk> I will have to add a crontab entry I guess. (-HUP does the same thing, right?)
2258 2014-02-21 21:42:19 [EddyF] has joined
2259 2014-02-21 21:42:30 <sipa> indeed
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2266 2014-02-21 21:44:15 <phillipsjk> grr: kill: Arguments should be jobs or process id's.
2267 2014-02-21 21:44:51 <sipa> killall -HUP bitcoind
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2275 2014-02-21 21:48:08 <phillipsjk> That did not give an error message, but I see no log rotation either.
2276 2014-02-21 21:49:10 yubrew has joined
2277 2014-02-21 21:49:33 <sipa> it just closes and reopens the log
2278 2014-02-21 21:49:38 <sipa> you have to do the rotation
2279 2014-02-21 21:49:48 <phillipsjk> looks like gavin suggest you can just move the log or something: https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=292.0
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2290 2014-02-21 21:55:41 <phillipsjk> 3 digit topic number even.
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2324 2014-02-21 22:18:08 <_syslog> some guy banned my #bitcoin ( chamunks )
2325 2014-02-21 22:18:20 <_syslog> can you tell him i'm not scammer or something else please.
2326 2014-02-21 22:18:55 <jcorgan> looks like you were banned from #bitcoin for posting URLs
2327 2014-02-21 22:19:21 <_syslog> i'm not posted any scam urls,
2328 2014-02-21 22:19:31 <_syslog> i send my own project for showcase.
2329 2014-02-21 22:19:37 <_syslog> and get some info about it.
2330 2014-02-21 22:19:47 <jcorgan> this isn't the place to discuss it
2331 2014-02-21 22:19:51 <sipa> complain to ops there, please
2332 2014-02-21 22:20:29 <_syslog> sorry
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2344 2014-02-21 22:38:09 <_syslog> why i'm getting kicked all the time from #bitcoin ?
2345 2014-02-21 22:38:26 cryptomatic has joined
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2347 2014-02-21 22:39:18 <coingenuity> _syslog: you're posting urls which is banned, and then evading your ban and coming back
2348 2014-02-21 22:39:47 <coingenuity> _syslog: you need to stay silent for the next few hours and learn how the IRC community works
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2350 2014-02-21 22:40:31 <justanotheruser> I am having difficulty finding complicated transactions in the testnet. Is there some place that lists useful complex tx?
2351 2014-02-21 22:40:37 <_syslog> but i didn't share any illegal or harmful thing
2352 2014-02-21 22:41:10 <justanotheruser> _syslog: you broke the no links rule. And your link was very sketchy looking.
2353 2014-02-21 22:41:35 <_syslog> what it is mean sketchy ?
2354 2014-02-21 22:41:55 <jcorgan> _syslog: this is not the place to argue about it, or you will get banned from here as well
2355 2014-02-21 22:41:58 <sipa> _syslog: please stop complaining here; just wait a few hours
2356 2014-02-21 22:42:06 <_syslog> ok.
2357 2014-02-21 22:42:15 <_syslog> can i share link from here ?
2358 2014-02-21 22:42:53 <sipa> what is it about?
2359 2014-02-21 22:42:54 <_syslog> i promise it was only my project for controlling multiple rpc serverç
2360 2014-02-21 22:43:00 john5223 has joined
2361 2014-02-21 22:43:02 <coingenuity> _syslog: no, you cannot share links here!
2362 2014-02-21 22:43:10 <coingenuity> stop asking about it!
2363 2014-02-21 22:43:15 Application has joined
2364 2014-02-21 22:43:54 <_syslog> Ok.
2365 2014-02-21 22:44:05 nirom has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2366 2014-02-21 22:44:46 <_syslog> i developed a multirpc server control interface ( Linux+php+mysql ) it still on alpha development.
2367 2014-02-21 22:45:13 <_syslog> it uses ssh2 auth for login, and allow to control rpc servers on web.
2368 2014-02-21 22:45:27 go1111111 has joined
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2379 2014-02-21 22:56:14 <Luke-Jr> coingenuity: this is -dev, there's no general rule against links here..
2380 2014-02-21 22:57:40 _syslog has joined
2381 2014-02-21 22:58:41 <wallet42> is it true that multisig is only allowed if m >= 50% n ?
2382 2014-02-21 22:58:53 <wallet42> eg is 2 out of 5 invalid?
2383 2014-02-21 22:59:07 <sipa> no
2384 2014-02-21 22:59:39 <wallet42> thx
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2390 2014-02-21 23:04:48 <_syslog> can i talk now ?
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2394 2014-02-21 23:05:57 <_syslog> http://s1.postimg.org/bwuchn4ri/screen6.jpg   here is the image. if you want  to more info contact to me via pm.
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