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  76 2014-02-22 01:27:12 <Belxjander> maybe a dumb question...but is it plausible/possible/too dangerous...
  77 2014-02-22 01:27:23 <davvblack> nothing is too dangerous
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  80 2014-02-22 01:27:36 <gmaxwell> everything is too dangerous.
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  82 2014-02-22 01:27:47 <sipa> nothing is too everything.
  83 2014-02-22 01:28:00 <Belxjander> If a Transaction is registered to the BlockChain,  is it posible to have it require a second confirmation transaction referencing it for the funds to actually transfer..the first transaction simply acting as a funds locking mechanism
  84 2014-02-22 01:28:10 adam3us has joined
  85 2014-02-22 01:28:11 <davvblack> ...why?
  86 2014-02-22 01:28:14 <davvblack> that's already what confirmations do
  87 2014-02-22 01:28:23 <davvblack> just wait for two confirmations if you want two confirmations
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  90 2014-02-22 01:29:53 <Belxjander> I was thinking of a "contract exchange" where both parties in the exchange transfer the BTC but it is effectively BlockChain escrow locked until the second transaction confirms the OTHER transfer of goods/service is complete
  91 2014-02-22 01:30:51 <davvblack> Let me find the link on it, but there's a way to spend to an address such that spending FROM that address necessarily releases the other half of the private key to a different transaction, making trades like that safe automatically
  92 2014-02-22 01:30:54 <Belxjander> not just cnofirmations by blocks and time
  93 2014-02-22 01:31:07 <davvblack> without added complexity of a new protocol
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  95 2014-02-22 01:31:28 <davvblack> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_5:_Trading_across_chains
  96 2014-02-22 01:31:35 <davvblack> this example is basically what you are describing, but more elegantly
  97 2014-02-22 01:31:37 <Belxjander> davvblack: I'm not so conversant with the underlying code model,  and I have only just gotten time to actually take a look under the covers really
  98 2014-02-22 01:31:54 <Belxjander> oh good...so there is an existing way of doing that
  99 2014-02-22 01:31:55 <davvblack> yeah, it has to do with some pretty deep cryptography that even I don't understand fully
 100 2014-02-22 01:32:00 <davvblack> but that page explains it pretty well
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 102 2014-02-22 01:32:38 <davvblack> that whole article is awesome.
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 245 2014-02-22 04:26:40 <davvblack> Is there any talk of supporting an immutable txid (ntxid?) in the reference client purely for RPC calls, aka without a hard fork?  That might be a nice next step
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 249 2014-02-22 04:30:32 <warren> davvblack: folks are against there being a separate index for it.
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 251 2014-02-22 04:31:04 <warren> davvblack: there's a patch to compute it but you can't lookup
 252 2014-02-22 04:31:43 <davvblack> …. that's such a useful index :/
 253 2014-02-22 04:32:03 <davvblack> oh well.
 254 2014-02-22 04:32:19 <davvblack> it should at least arguably be an optional index that you can force it to calculate
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 257 2014-02-22 04:35:36 <freewil> davblack see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3656 for the discussion on ntxid
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 259 2014-02-22 04:35:47 <davvblack> thanks
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 265 2014-02-22 04:39:56 <jgarzik> davvblack, You get an immutable txid once a transaction is confirmed in the blockchain.
 266 2014-02-22 04:41:36 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 267 2014-02-22 04:41:46 <davvblack> yeah, but you can't easily search for a known ntxid, right?
 268 2014-02-22 04:41:53 <davvblack> so the normal use case of an exchange is still awkward
 269 2014-02-22 04:42:58 <davvblack> 1) publish transaction 2) getnormalizedtxid on that 3) store ntxid 4) full scan for it?  I guess you can just pore through each block as they come in… it just seems like it would be better to have an optional index.
 270 2014-02-22 04:43:42 <davvblack> actually i guess it's not a huge deal because you can just watch each block for that ntxid, then when it comes in, pull the txid off of it and save that, then look it up by that later
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 274 2014-02-22 04:44:34 <davvblack> im still reading through this thread too
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 289 2014-02-22 05:04:57 <davvblack> Has there been a discussion of adding a ttl to transactions instead of having it be global?
 290 2014-02-22 05:05:09 <davvblack> ie setting it long so you can set super-low fee low-urgency
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 292 2014-02-22 05:05:37 <davvblack> or setting it very short so you know you can reuse the same inputs with higher fee very soon if it doesn't confirm (ie, to safely withdraw coin from a service)
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 294 2014-02-22 05:09:21 <davvblack> it wouldn't even need to be a hard fork as far as I understand it, because it would only control when nodes start broadcasting transactions that would double-spend already accepted transactions.
 295 2014-02-22 05:09:46 <davvblack> (though maybe there would be an issue with where to store the ttl itself)
 296 2014-02-22 05:10:16 <Luke-Jr> unnecessary
 297 2014-02-22 05:10:42 <davvblack> how do you figure?
 298 2014-02-22 05:11:21 <davvblack> what is the current way of increasing the fee of  an already broadcast transaction while still guaranteeing at most one of them gets included?
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 302 2014-02-22 05:22:14 <jgarzik> davvblack, an exchange must ultimately manage and watch its unspent outputs. those are the "coins" of bitcoin.
 303 2014-02-22 05:22:45 <davvblack> right, i know how outputs work.  I'm just talking of the case where they are skirting the low end of 'ok transaction fees' and a certain transaction is not confirming
 304 2014-02-22 05:22:48 <jgarzik> davvblack, regardless of malleability, you must guard for double-spending prior to confirmation -- and that goes for withdrawals as well as deposits
 305 2014-02-22 05:22:48 <davvblack> how do they up those fees?
 306 2014-02-22 05:23:07 <jgarzik> people knew that for deposits, but forgot for withdrawals
 307 2014-02-22 05:23:21 <davvblack> I think we're not talking about the same thing here
 308 2014-02-22 05:23:49 <davvblack> i just mean that when publishing outgoing transactions, there should be a ttl beyond which you can double spend and the double spend will be relayed by everyone
 309 2014-02-22 05:24:21 <davvblack> specifically to facilitate increasing mining fees without waiting for everyone to forget about the initial transaction
 310 2014-02-22 05:26:20 <uiop> i think that it's impossible (currently) to ever be able to "forget" about a transaction, since if someone ever manages to mine it it's "good"
 311 2014-02-22 05:26:43 <davvblack> yeah, it's ok for the transaction to stay valid
 312 2014-02-22 05:26:50 <davvblack> because im deliberately trying to double spend it
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 314 2014-02-22 05:27:03 <davvblack> i just want people to RELAY it, which they would be unwilling to do while it's still int he pool
 315 2014-02-22 05:27:27 <davvblack> basically, i want send a transaction from A->B with a fee of 0 and a ttl of 30 minutes
 316 2014-02-22 05:27:50 <davvblack> after that time, it still might be mined, which is fine, but also, i could publish a new transaction from A->B with .0001 fee that will actually be picked up
 317 2014-02-22 05:27:57 <davvblack> and the nodes will be willing to relay it because the ttl has passed
 318 2014-02-22 05:28:19 <uiop> err, my comment was slightly misguided but still is correct-ish
 319 2014-02-22 05:28:37 <davvblack> yeah, it was correct, but not a counterpoint to what i was saying
 320 2014-02-22 05:28:47 <uiop> davvblack: yeah, i hear what you're going for
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 322 2014-02-22 05:30:00 <uiop> off the top of my head, it seems like such a scheme would need it worked into the transaction-validity-test (as computed by miners) a test if this ttl has expired
 323 2014-02-22 05:30:17 <davvblack> I think it only needs to be put into the relay code
 324 2014-02-22 05:30:24 <davvblack> and wouldn't need to be a hard fork
 325 2014-02-22 05:30:28 <davvblack> it's fine if both transactions stay mineable
 326 2014-02-22 05:30:29 <uiop> but, is there any way to tell at what time a transaction was issued?
 327 2014-02-22 05:30:37 <davvblack> yeah, iirc?
 328 2014-02-22 05:31:34 <uiop> what if someone lies? (i.e., is it protected by crypto? what if the issuing computer's clock is skewed? on purpose? etc?)
 329 2014-02-22 05:31:48 <davvblack> all good questions
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 331 2014-02-22 05:32:24 <uiop> kerberos (the protocol) has all kind of problems with clock skew
 332 2014-02-22 05:32:36 <uiop> (misc somewhat-relevant remark)
 333 2014-02-22 05:32:39 <davvblack> bitcoin is already weak to that iirc
 334 2014-02-22 05:32:49 <davvblack> if miners clocks vary by more than 2 hrs they will hard fork
 335 2014-02-22 05:33:16 <uiop> kerberos is sensitive within 5 minutes iirc
 336 2014-02-22 05:34:34 <robonerd> i'm sensitive all day
 337 2014-02-22 05:34:48 * robonerd rubs his body
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 341 2014-02-22 05:37:42 <uiop> robonerd: perhaps ntp desensitizing lotion is in order
 342 2014-02-22 05:38:02 <robonerd> no need, i run freebsd and keep it updated
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 398 2014-02-22 06:34:20 <phillipsjk> looks like FreeBSD uses a log rotator called "newsyslog"
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 441 2014-02-22 07:51:15 <dansmith_btc> HI, can bitcoind's sendrawtransaction send any arbitrary tx, or is there a limitation like e.g the rawtx inputs must be present in utxo?
 442 2014-02-22 07:54:47 <wumpus> dansmith_btc: you can only use it to send transactions that are accepted by the mempool
 443 2014-02-22 07:55:11 <wumpus> so AFAIK yes that means the inputs have to be in the utxo set or mempool
 444 2014-02-22 07:56:06 <dansmith_btc> wumpus, so if I run bitcoind in an unsynced offline mode, there is no utxo and mempool, and hence I can't do sendrawtransaction, right?
 445 2014-02-22 07:56:24 <wumpus> hmm I'm not sure
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 447 2014-02-22 07:56:56 <wumpus> there is also the orphans map, to be honest I don't know exactly the mechanism there, and whether sendrawtransaction will put your transaction there
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 450 2014-02-22 08:02:18 <wumpus> but orphans don't get relayed, they just get stored
 451 2014-02-22 08:02:49 <wumpus> but I checked: sendrawtransaction will raise an error without relaying your transaction if AcceptToMemoryPool fails, it will not even bother with orphan(missing input) txes
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 469 2014-02-22 08:41:30 <sipa> wumpus: i recently filed a bug to male sendrawtransaction reporting better
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 487 2014-02-22 09:16:33 <wumpus> yes it should at least return some reject reason
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 598 2014-02-22 11:26:56 <jupiterfunk> Hi.  Which transaction types are included in Bitcoin RPC call: listunspent  ?
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 605 2014-02-22 11:29:19 <sipa> jupiterfunk: it lists the unspent transaction _outputs_ your wallet has
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 611 2014-02-22 11:30:02 <jupiterfunk> sipa, outputs from which transaction types besides pay-to-pubkey-hash and pay-to-pub-key ?
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 613 2014-02-22 11:30:09 <vrs> anyone using armory in here? (#armory is basically empty)
 614 2014-02-22 11:30:26 <vrs> it's been stuck at "building databases: 17%" for hours
 615 2014-02-22 11:30:50 <sipa> jupiterfunk: anything paid to an address your wallet created
 616 2014-02-22 11:31:04 <sipa> jupiterfunk: which can include multisig, if you own all keys
 617 2014-02-22 11:31:40 <sipa> vrs: ask etotheipi_
 618 2014-02-22 11:31:54 <vrs> etotheipi_: see above
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 621 2014-02-22 11:32:52 <vrs> version is 0.90-beta
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 624 2014-02-22 11:34:19 <vrs> or no, actually git
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 649 2014-02-22 11:56:59 <_syslog> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=481620.0
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 659 2014-02-22 12:12:23 <jonyesa> hi!, im experimenting with cryptos and id like to know what this code in main.cpp will do int64 nSubsidy = 200 * COIN;      if(nHeight == 10)     {     nSubsidy = 10000 * COIN;     }
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 661 2014-02-22 12:13:21 <jonyesa> will the rewards always be 200 and in the tenth block 10000?
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 682 2014-02-22 12:37:48 <chavenorbos> How do I reset my bitcoin testing account?   Or wipe all my ACCOUNTS.
 683 2014-02-22 12:38:28 <_syslog> remove wallet.dat
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 686 2014-02-22 12:38:44 <_syslog> you cannot delete address. only rename accounts.
 687 2014-02-22 12:38:49 <Whoop> please transfer your coins to someone else prior, test coins need to be mined like real ones also - waste if you're just going to delete them
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 690 2014-02-22 12:41:01 <chavenorbos> @Whoop where do you want me to send the coins?
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 692 2014-02-22 12:41:46 <chavenorbos> @_syslog does the wallet.dat include my real coins as well?
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 694 2014-02-22 12:42:00 <davout> hey
 695 2014-02-22 12:42:00 <Whoop> http://tpfaucet.appspot.com
 696 2014-02-22 12:42:05 <davout> quick question about locktime
 697 2014-02-22 12:42:21 <Whoop> chavenorbos: 1DRnurMWfTWXL9oG8iVED8r6qubqPKw7Vj per that link
 698 2014-02-22 12:42:25 <chavenorbos> @_syslog when I create a new ADDRESS after removing the .dat file will it recreate.
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 701 2014-02-22 12:42:50 <Whoop> urh mimoZNLcP2rrMRgdeX5PSnR7AjCqQveZZ4 rather sorry
 702 2014-02-22 12:42:51 <davout> what happens if a miner includes a transaction into a mined block despite lock time saying it can't be included before another year or so? does the block get rejected by other miners ?
 703 2014-02-22 12:43:08 <chavenorbos> @Whoop - Do I need to wait for the transaction to CONFIRM before nuking the account?
 704 2014-02-22 12:43:17 <chavenorbos> @Whoop - Do I need to wait for the transaction to CONFIRM before nuking the ACCOUNT = DAT FILE.
 705 2014-02-22 12:43:21 <davout> or will other miners not care about that and consider the block valid anyway ?
 706 2014-02-22 12:44:15 <Whoop> Should be fine to just delete without waiting for >1 confirmation
 707 2014-02-22 12:44:25 <chavenorbos> @Whoop they are sent away.
 708 2014-02-22 12:44:44 <Whoop> thanks
 709 2014-02-22 12:44:52 <chavenorbos> @Whoop are the real coins and the test coins saved in the same wallet.dat file?
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 711 2014-02-22 12:48:16 <chavenorbos> X last question the wallet.dat is in the testnet3.
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 757 2014-02-22 13:44:09 <Jere_Jones> Is bitcoind pronounced "bitcoin-dee" or "bitcoin'd"? Or maybe some other way?
 758 2014-02-22 13:45:11 <jakov> i usually say dee because its a daemon like sshd httpd
 759 2014-02-22 13:45:19 <sipa> i say bitcoin-dee
 760 2014-02-22 13:45:31 <Jere_Jones> Cool. Thanks.
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 767 2014-02-22 13:49:35 <bitblender> :)
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 772 2014-02-22 13:52:40 <davout> what happens if a miner includes a transaction into a mined block despite lock time saying it can't be included before another year or so? does the block get rejected by other miners ?
 773 2014-02-22 13:52:45 <davout> or will other miners not care about that and consider the block valid anyway ?
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 780 2014-02-22 13:57:05 <gpmnlxdw> how to create a raw transaction to spend from multi input transaction? Must I append redeemScript for each tx?
 781 2014-02-22 13:57:24 <gpmnlxdw> 	bitcoind createrawtransaction '[{"txid":"xxx","vout":0,"scriptPubKey":"xxx","redeemScript":"xxx"}]' '{"targetaddr":0.1}'
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 783 2014-02-22 13:58:33 <gpmnlxdw> if it just spend one transaction, I know it should like previous, but how about spend two or more? to repeat the same scriptPubKey and redeemScript consequently?
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 787 2014-02-22 14:04:52 <sipa> davout: then that block is invalid
 788 2014-02-22 14:05:01 <sipa> davec: and no full node will accept it
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1088 2014-02-22 15:01:35 <vrs> unrelated to freenode instability, ffffffuuuuuuu
1089 2014-02-22 15:01:35 <vrs> developers, please make your clients more crash resistant because rescanning >10GB of data overheats some people's hardware
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1104 2014-02-22 15:02:24 <vrs> crash resistant as in, if anything crashes during a large indexing operation, don't require me to do a full rescan >_>
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1255 2014-02-22 15:03:45 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: is this disdain for C99 simply because the project is C++?
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2013 2014-02-22 16:22:08 <swulf--> does transaction malleability break the rapidly-adjusted micropayments protocol?  T2 (as described on the wiki) signs the input using the hash of a tx (T1) that's not in the blockchain yet. if after T1 is broadcast, it's malated and makes it into the blockchain, that invalidates T2 and server can disappear preventing the output of T1 from being spent.  am I missing something?
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2827 2014-02-22 19:25:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|swulf--: malleability breaks any protocol involving a chain of unannounced (unmined) transactions, yes.
2828 2014-02-22 19:25:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|19:33:13 <gmaxwell> we need a "canIbuildAsiteHandlingOtherPeoplesMoney.com" that just displays NO.
2829 2014-02-22 19:26:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anyone want to host that?
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2831 2014-02-22 19:26:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|As soon as this transaction confirms, I can supply the domain
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2833 2014-02-22 19:28:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Actually, never mind -- I just thought of a place to put it
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2843 2014-02-22 19:36:58 <swulf--> michagogo: thanks for confirming:)
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2865 2014-02-22 19:40:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|http://paste.debian.net/83523/
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2884 2014-02-22 19:49:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hey, cool -- I didn't realize BitPay was already doing payment requests
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2978 2014-02-22 20:00:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: http://canibuildasitehandlingotherpeoplesmoney.com/ should be up within 5 minutes
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2982 2014-02-22 20:01:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Looks like it's up, actually
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2984 2014-02-22 20:01:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Feel free to suggest any improvements... my HTML is weak to nonexistent
2985 2014-02-22 20:01:45 <gunnis> Needs more <marquee>
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2989 2014-02-22 20:02:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Like that?
2990 2014-02-22 20:02:54 brocktice is now known as Guest76926
2991 2014-02-22 20:03:05 <gunnis> Theeere we go.. nice work
2992 2014-02-22 20:03:21 <qupop>  Is there a website I can configure to emit a loud noise whenever the price of bitcoin reaches a certain price?
2993 2014-02-22 20:03:34 Techguy305 has joined
2994 2014-02-22 20:03:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gunnis: Actually, reload it
2995 2014-02-22 20:04:01 <gunnis> Nearing perfection..!
2996 2014-02-22 20:04:02 kiddouk has joined
2997 2014-02-22 20:04:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, the <blink> doesn't seem to be working
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3000 2014-02-22 20:05:22 <gunnis> <span style="text-decoration: blink;">NO</span>
3001 2014-02-22 20:05:24 stalut has joined
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3003 2014-02-22 20:05:55 <Arnavion> <blink> was dropped from browsers a long time ago
3004 2014-02-22 20:06:02 Happzz has joined
3005 2014-02-22 20:06:12 <Arnavion> I thought <marquee> was too but evidently not
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3007 2014-02-22 20:07:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ooh, how about this?
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3010 2014-02-22 20:07:42 <Arnavion> Eyes, goggles, etc.
3011 2014-02-22 20:08:04 Guest72444 is now known as jrick_
3012 2014-02-22 20:08:06 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: hehe.
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3014 2014-02-22 20:08:19 <gunnis> Looking good. maybe just a under_construction.gif at the bottom
3015 2014-02-22 20:08:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Heh, refresh it again
3016 2014-02-22 20:08:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(stole a code snippet from Wikipedia)
3017 2014-02-22 20:09:23 <gunnis> Niiice ;)
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3025 2014-02-22 20:17:52 <jcorgan> hahahaha
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3053 2014-02-22 20:30:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Made the colors a bit more hideous
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3102 2014-02-22 21:01:51 <_syslog> http://redd.it/1yne86
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