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 400 2014-02-23 07:22:52 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: no disdain for C99 at all, but it's basically always trouble on windows
 401 2014-02-23 07:23:49 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I've not encountered problems, so long as I stick to MinGW and avoid %ll* O.o
 402 2014-02-23 07:24:17 <Luke-Jr> and to be fair, the %ll* problem isn't really Windows' fault; their current libcs support C99 just fine (but MinGW uses an old one)
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 404 2014-02-23 07:24:55 <wumpus> I'm sick of hearing it's not their fault, MS killed C99 by not supporting it in MSVC, it's that simple
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 406 2014-02-23 07:25:22 <Luke-Jr> meh, who uses MSVC? <.<
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 408 2014-02-23 07:25:54 <wumpus> not that I particularly care in the case of bitcoin (which is C++), but when writing C the C99 features are pretty nice
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 410 2014-02-23 07:28:40 <Luke-Jr> I wish C added templates
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 418 2014-02-23 07:38:00 <jgarzik> I wish C/C++ added regexes and a standardized JSON-like object
 419 2014-02-23 07:38:27 <jgarzik> as in, in the language support itself, not a lib as they exist now.
 420 2014-02-23 07:38:32 buhbuh has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 421 2014-02-23 07:39:33 <wumpus> agree for C++, C is the ultimate 'batteries not included' language and you need an external library for about everything
 422 2014-02-23 07:39:41 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: C has regexs
 423 2014-02-23 07:39:53 <Luke-Jr> regcomp doesn't count?
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 425 2014-02-23 07:40:07 <Luke-Jr> I mean, it's technically POSIX, but still..
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 428 2014-02-23 07:40:59 <jcrubino> where in the original codebase can I find the testnet address prefixes?
 429 2014-02-23 07:41:23 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, in the language itself.  Compose (build and compile an RE) and template-like, flexible-type RE matching are heavily useful as built-ins in other languages.
 430 2014-02-23 07:41:40 <jgarzik> jcrubino, chainparams.*
 431 2014-02-23 07:41:49 <shaileshg> has anyone explored lian's bitcoin-ruby
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 433 2014-02-23 07:43:16 <wumpus> in C, people don't even agree about what string format to use, let alone what RE library to use
 434 2014-02-23 07:43:38 <shaileshg> lian: what does Bitcoin::Wallet::TxDP do?
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 436 2014-02-23 07:44:46 <jcrubino> jgarzik: is that in a header or cpp file?
 437 2014-02-23 07:45:10 <jcrubino> or how would I search the codebase for it using github?
 438 2014-02-23 07:45:11 <jgarzik> jcrubino, yes
 439 2014-02-23 07:45:17 <jcrubino> : )
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 441 2014-02-23 07:45:59 <jgarzik> jcrubino, sorry, at this point I say this is not a channel for teaching a class on github...
 442 2014-02-23 07:46:08 <jcrubino> noprob
 443 2014-02-23 07:46:21 <jcrubino> jgarzik: chainparams.h
 444 2014-02-23 07:47:12 <shaileshg> hi, how do i implement tx notification?
 445 2014-02-23 07:47:19 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 446 2014-02-23 07:47:37 <jgarzik> shaileshg, all TXs on network, or just yours?
 447 2014-02-23 07:47:43 <shaileshg> kind of observer on blockchain
 448 2014-02-23 07:47:46 <shaileshg> just mine
 449 2014-02-23 07:47:53 <jgarzik> shaileshg, -walletnotify
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 451 2014-02-23 07:51:20 <jcrubino> what is the script hash listed in the address prefix section of the wiki?
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 453 2014-02-23 07:52:02 <jcrubino> ref: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/List_of_address_prefixes
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 461 2014-02-23 07:58:10 <jcrubino> jgarzik: do you ever forsee the official reference client written in anything other than C++?
 462 2014-02-23 07:59:14 <jgarzik> jcrubino, Wise engineers will admit their ability to accurately predict the future is near nil, just like the rest of the human race
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 464 2014-02-23 08:00:39 <jcrubino> jgarzik: how much of the original Satoshi code and engineering methods are still in the codebase?
 465 2014-02-23 08:01:57 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, shh i can predict the future
 466 2014-02-23 08:02:11 * phantomcircuit pulls out crystal ball
 467 2014-02-23 08:02:16 <jcrubino> I ask because there seems to be a disagreement on how good a coder the creator was/is in the bitcoin 2.0 crowd.
 468 2014-02-23 08:02:50 * deego throws the crystal ball, and predicts its parabolic path quite accurately.
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 470 2014-02-23 08:03:03 <phantomcircuit> lol
 471 2014-02-23 08:03:06 adam- has joined
 472 2014-02-23 08:06:38 <jgarzik> jcrubino, Satoshi was an excellent architect, and obviously someone who thought about the system for years.  Fundamentally, he designed an automaton that continues to function to this day, which is an amazing achievement.
 473 2014-02-23 08:07:07 <jcrubino> i agree
 474 2014-02-23 08:07:09 <jgarzik> jcrubino, Not an incredibly fantastic open source engineer.  Little evidence of standard engineering practices
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 476 2014-02-23 08:07:49 <jgarzik> I'm guessing Satoshi was something like a scientist, who programmed out of necessity
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 482 2014-02-23 08:10:35 <wumpus> jcrubino: I do forsee the idea of an 'official reference client' disappearing over time, but switching programming languages just for the sake of switching programming langauges will never happen that's pretty safe to say
 483 2014-02-23 08:11:07 <Luke-Jr> unless you count C++11 as a new language ;p
 484 2014-02-23 08:11:17 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: hah I just realized that after posting
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 490 2014-02-23 08:28:15 <Luke-Jr> Github would also use less storage space without your pointless comment ☺
 491 2014-02-23 08:28:18 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: LOL
 492 2014-02-23 08:28:51 <Luke-Jr> epic response
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 528 2014-02-23 08:29:40 <wumpus> sometimes I tend to imagine that guy stoned
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 576 2014-02-23 08:56:48 <darbsllim[AFK]> guys is there anywhere that I can read about any progress that has been made with multithread re: wallets
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 598 2014-02-23 09:15:48 <freewil> darbsllim[AFK]: multithreading what?
 599 2014-02-23 09:16:00 <freewil> you mean multiple wallets?
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 632 2014-02-23 09:58:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik: How come people here are added with just +o flags?
 633 2014-02-23 09:58:04 ielo has joined
 634 2014-02-23 09:58:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|In general, standard practice on freenode is usually to give ops a set of several useful flags
 635 2014-02-23 09:58:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|+Aiortv is a common set, I think
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 638 2014-02-23 10:02:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Which allow, respectively, viewing of the ACL, inviting yourself to the channel if it's +i, using the op/deop commands, unbanning yourself from the channel, setting the topic, and using the voice/devoice commands
 639 2014-02-23 10:02:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Or is it unvoice)
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 705 2014-02-23 11:19:31 <sipa> jcrubino: we hardly manage to not introduce forking bugs when making incremental changes to the reference client codebase. i don't believe human software engineering state of the art is capable of rewriting it in a different language without changing any of the consensus behaviour
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 709 2014-02-23 11:23:14 <murr4y> why is difficulty included in the block header? isn't it right that each client has to calculate the difficulty themselves (based on time for every 2016 blocks), or someone could just relay blocks with fake low difficulties?
 710 2014-02-23 11:24:00 <sipa> murr4y: why... you'll have to ask satoshi
 711 2014-02-23 11:24:12 <sipa> but it is very usrful for early detection of bad blocks
 712 2014-02-23 11:24:32 <sipa> as we know the maximum rate at which block difficulty can change
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 714 2014-02-23 11:24:55 <sipa> having the height in the header would be even more useful
 715 2014-02-23 11:25:19 <murr4y> ah, you mean so you can discard the block early without having to calculating hashes etc
 716 2014-02-23 11:25:52 <sipa> mostly without storing it on disk
 717 2014-02-23 11:26:24 <murr4y> i see, thanks!
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 719 2014-02-23 11:26:53 <sipa> having the height in there means we can verify proof of work without knowing all parents
 720 2014-02-23 11:27:18 <sipa> eh, having difficulty in there
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 723 2014-02-23 11:28:02 <murr4y> yes, given that you trust it
 724 2014-02-23 11:28:09 <sipa> no
 725 2014-02-23 11:29:32 <sipa> it doesn't let you know what difficulty it should be, but it does allow you to check proof of work compared to its claimed difficulty immediately
 726 2014-02-23 11:29:46 <murr4y> right
 727 2014-02-23 11:31:06 <sipa> with the timestamp we can determine what range of possible difficulties are possible, assuming it descends from the best blocks we already know
 728 2014-02-23 11:32:07 <murr4y> how is that useful though? won't you have to check the actual difficulty sooner or later anyway?
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 737 2014-02-23 11:34:45 <sipa> murr4y: if the claimed difficulty is not within that range of reachable difficulties, wd can discadd the block
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 743 2014-02-23 11:35:20 <sipa> if its pow doesn't match its claimed difficulty, we can discard the block
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 745 2014-02-23 11:35:47 <sipa> sure, later we still need to verify that the claimed pow matches the actually computed pow
 746 2014-02-23 11:36:09 <sipa> but getting there is incredibly difficulty
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 757 2014-02-23 11:38:10 <murr4y> ah yeah, i see
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 821 2014-02-23 12:10:54 <airbreather> Is it normal to receive an "inv" message before a "version" message from the Satoshi client?
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 826 2014-02-23 12:15:34 <sipa> that sounds wrong
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 829 2014-02-23 12:17:18 <airbreather> Would this happen if my "version" message is invalid?  I would have expected it to just stonewall me until I got it right, though...
 830 2014-02-23 12:19:30 <sipa> yeah
 831 2014-02-23 12:19:48 <sipa> nothing should be sent before the version/verack exchange
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 836 2014-02-23 12:21:04 <sipa> did you receive a version message?
 837 2014-02-23 12:21:18 <airbreather> No
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 839 2014-02-23 12:22:44 <airbreather> Here's the output of my little tool: http://pastebin.com/QEWCbSUn
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 842 2014-02-23 12:24:59 <airbreather> I've never sent a verack, it never sent a version, it's just spitting out invs
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 846 2014-02-23 12:26:00 <airbreather> FWIW, if I comment-out my code that sends "version", then it does just sit there waiting for me
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 905 2014-02-23 13:34:43 <airbreather> hmm... OK, setting the nonce on my "version" message to 0, I now get version and verack from Satoshi.
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 915 2014-02-23 13:43:59 <sipa> airbreather: heh? that shouldn't matter
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 919 2014-02-23 13:46:54 <airbreather> sipa: agreed, it shouldn't, so I must be constructing my outgoing "version" wrong.  one thing I noticed is that the incoming "version" message doesn't have the 4-byte "time" field in its network addresses, even though protocol version = 70001 on both sides, but mine does.
 920 2014-02-23 13:47:31 <airbreather> so I guess it's expecting me to do the same, and it winds up with: receive version message: : version 70001, blocks=0, us=[::ffff]:32512, them=[100::]:0, peer=127.0.0.1:50984
 921 2014-02-23 13:48:24 <sipa> 8-byte time field, you mean?
 922 2014-02-23 13:48:34 <airbreather> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Network_address
 923 2014-02-23 13:48:48 <airbreather> wiki is wrong?
 924 2014-02-23 13:49:34 <sipa> ah
 925 2014-02-23 13:50:01 <airbreather> heh -- something's got to be wrong, because actually looking at it, all that doesn't add up to 26 like the "version" packet has for those fields
 926 2014-02-23 13:51:23 <sipa> the addr structure only has a timestamp when the protocol version is above 31402
 927 2014-02-23 13:51:54 <sipa> but when the version packet is set, the protocol version is set to 209
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 929 2014-02-23 13:52:02 <airbreather> Oh
 930 2014-02-23 13:52:14 <sipa> only after the version/verack exchange it is upgraded to whatever is negotiated
 931 2014-02-23 13:52:14 <airbreather> Sneaky
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 933 2014-02-23 13:52:29 <airbreather> Thanks, that helps a lot
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 943 2014-02-23 14:05:47 <abishek> when sending bitcoins, is there a way to send additional information on the transaction information as text?
 944 2014-02-23 14:06:23 <sipa> no
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 946 2014-02-23 14:06:31 <abishek> ok
 947 2014-02-23 14:06:53 <sipa> bitcoin transactions only contain what is necessary for the world to validate the transfer
 948 2014-02-23 14:07:11 <sipa> anything else is private information you can just as well tell the receiver directly
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 950 2014-02-23 14:07:27 <abishek> ok
 951 2014-02-23 14:07:30 <sipa> which is what the payment protocol accomplishes
 952 2014-02-23 14:07:44 <sipa> (bip70-73)
 953 2014-02-23 14:08:10 <jakov> you could by sending a satoshi to a made up address derived from your message
 954 2014-02-23 14:08:19 <jakov> or some other horrible hack
 955 2014-02-23 14:08:36 <sipa> and burden the blockchain and every validation node's database forever?
 956 2014-02-23 14:09:09 <jakov> if they can pay the tx fee theres nothing to stop them, i dont think its good thats just the way it is
 957 2014-02-23 14:09:17 <sipa> meh
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 959 2014-02-23 14:09:31 <sipa> this is something we should make easy to do at the ui level
 960 2014-02-23 14:09:41 <jakov> sure
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 962 2014-02-23 14:10:02 <sipa> and sure, it's inevitable that people try encumbering the chain with it
 963 2014-02-23 14:10:34 <airbreather> theoretically, couldn't someone just have the scriptSig push their message, then pop it back off?  I think this would be non-standard and would require a larger fee, but it's not like it's impossible, and some pools include non-standard transactions in their blocks.  It's highly discouraged though..
 964 2014-02-23 14:10:38 <jakov> it still seems silly though, might as well send an email
 965 2014-02-23 14:10:48 <jakov> using the same channel they got the btc address from
 966 2014-02-23 14:11:40 <jakov> is there an opcode to push arbitrary strings?
 967 2014-02-23 14:11:42 <airbreather> and it would be just as possible for someone to erase the message from the scriptSig between you sending it and it going into the block
 968 2014-02-23 14:11:56 <airbreather> or even worse, manipulate.
 969 2014-02-23 14:12:14 <airbreather> jakov: yeah, the OP_PUSHDATA family
 970 2014-02-23 14:12:19 <jakov> aha
 971 2014-02-23 14:12:30 <jakov> erasing the message will make signature validation fail
 972 2014-02-23 14:12:54 <sipa> airbreather: whatever is necessary for validation must be in the blockchain
 973 2014-02-23 14:13:03 <sipa> otherwise new nodes cannot validate history
 974 2014-02-23 14:13:24 <sipa> there are ways to avoid some data from entering the validation databases
 975 2014-02-23 14:13:44 <sipa> but those are really just something like giving drug addicts clean needles
 976 2014-02-23 14:13:46 <airbreather> ahh... right, the "signature can't sign itself" bit only applies to a specific stack item, not the whole scriptSig
 977 2014-02-23 14:14:00 <sipa> it's still, just slightly less so
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 981 2014-02-23 14:14:16 <sipa> *bad
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 985 2014-02-23 14:17:46 <jakov> has the coinjoin website been used much?
 986 2014-02-23 14:17:50 <jakov> the one from ;;cjs
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 988 2014-02-23 14:20:42 <arubi> hi all, hypothetical question, can 'm of n' transactions be applied recursively?
 989 2014-02-23 14:20:46 <arubi> like this :
 990 2014-02-23 14:20:47 <arubi> {A,B,C}> >(2of3)> >{H}> >(1of2)> >{I}< <{1of2}< <{G}< <{D,E,F}
 991 2014-02-23 14:20:59 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, RE channel flags, no idea.  I don't pretend to be an expert on freenode IRC.  I hate IRC and actively resist any attempt to draw me into channel management.  Had my fill of IRC wars in the 1990s.
 992 2014-02-23 14:21:10 <jgarzik> Screw IRC, where is an improved service?
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1001 2014-02-23 14:30:49 <Adlai> jgarzik: there's URC if you can figure out i2p :P
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1011 2014-02-23 14:39:52 <murr4y> where in the source code is new difficulty calculated? i've been looking on github but can't find it
1012 2014-02-23 14:40:38 <sipa> first of all, difficulty doesn't exist at the protocol level
1013 2014-02-23 14:41:03 <sipa> there is only the target (the maximum allowed hash value), and its 32-bit compact encoding
1014 2014-02-23 14:41:18 <sipa> difficulty is really just max_target / actual_target
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1016 2014-02-23 14:41:49 <murr4y> i'm with you
1017 2014-02-23 14:42:09 <murr4y> so where is the new target calculated? is maybe what i should ask
1018 2014-02-23 14:42:50 <sipa> GetNextWorkRequired in main.cpp
1019 2014-02-23 14:43:49 <arubi> sipa, did you see my question above? ^^
1020 2014-02-23 14:43:59 <murr4y> sweet, thanks
1021 2014-02-23 14:44:34 <sipa> arubi: i don't understand the notation
1022 2014-02-23 14:44:50 <arubi> A..I are keys
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1024 2014-02-23 14:45:10 <arubi> A..B are keys for 2 of 3 transaction from address H
1025 2014-02-23 14:45:29 <arubi> H and I are keys for 1 of 2 transaction from I
1026 2014-02-23 14:45:31 <sipa> there is no 'from' address
1027 2014-02-23 14:45:40 <arubi> or am I looking at it completely wrong?
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1029 2014-02-23 14:46:11 <sipa> bitcoin transactions create outputs, or "coins", of a certain value and assigned to a script
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1031 2014-02-23 14:46:22 <Aurigae> anbody here who knows dependencies of NPM 1.4.3? epcially lowest saupported NODE version? Im trying to run a coffee script but bugging with dependencies, no docs fro mthe devs available
1032 2014-02-23 14:46:29 <sipa> to be able to consume these coins, you must provide inputs that make that script evaluate to true
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1034 2014-02-23 14:46:44 <arubi> alright
1035 2014-02-23 14:46:44 <sipa> Aurigae: what does this have to do with bitcoin?
1036 2014-02-23 14:47:00 <Aurigae> its an exchange script for cryptos ^^
1037 2014-02-23 14:47:09 <Aurigae> lol
1038 2014-02-23 14:47:27 <arubi> eh...
1039 2014-02-23 14:47:43 <sipa> i doubt you're in the right place here; this channel is about the bitcoin protocol and implementations of it
1040 2014-02-23 14:47:53 <Aurigae> NVM
1041 2014-02-23 14:48:16 <sipa> arubi: so all conditions are always just per coin
1042 2014-02-23 14:48:25 <sipa> arubi: transactions consume and produce coins
1043 2014-02-23 14:48:40 <arubi> sipa, so when creating an m of n transaction, what are it's "parts"?
1044 2014-02-23 14:48:47 <arubi> what exactly am I giving to the parties?
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1046 2014-02-23 14:49:07 <sipa> arubi: so, what happens for a 2-of-3 output for example
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1048 2014-02-23 14:49:35 <sipa> arubi: 3 parties A B and C combine their public keys, and create a script that says "require 2 signatures from these 3 keys"
1049 2014-02-23 14:49:47 <sipa> they hash that script, and turn it into a P2SH address
1050 2014-02-23 14:49:53 <sipa> they give out the P2SH address
1051 2014-02-23 14:49:58 <sipa> and then you can send coins to it
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1054 2014-02-23 14:50:32 <sipa> basically, you're creation a transaction which has an output that says "to consume me, you must provide a script whose hash is H, plus inputs to make it valid"
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1056 2014-02-23 14:51:12 <sipa> now A, B and C can jointly craft a transaction which consumes that coin, by signing the spending transaction with 2 of their signatures
1057 2014-02-23 14:52:35 <arubi> So the combined public keys from A B and C create the public key for the address that is controlled by them?
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1059 2014-02-23 14:53:01 <sipa> there is no "public key for the address" anymore
1060 2014-02-23 14:53:25 <sipa> it's an address that refers to a script (which, in turn, requires signatures by 2 out of 3 specific keys)
1061 2014-02-23 14:53:33 <sipa> not an address that refers to a public key directly
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1063 2014-02-23 14:53:55 <arubi> Ah, that's what I've been missing then
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1065 2014-02-23 14:54:11 <arubi> I was thinking this process could go on recursively
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1067 2014-02-23 14:54:34 <sipa> you can create more complex scripts, too, though they are non-standard
1068 2014-02-23 14:54:37 <arubi> like having 2 addresses that are of 2 of 3 kind, and treat them as 1 of 2 kind
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1070 2014-02-23 14:54:58 <arubi> I see
1071 2014-02-23 14:55:00 <sipa> with the addresses? no
1072 2014-02-23 14:55:08 <arubi> but with a script
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1074 2014-02-23 14:55:12 <sipa> you can't do a 1-of-2 on 2 2-of-3 addresses
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1076 2014-02-23 14:55:27 <sipa> you can accomplish the same with a more advanced script, though
1077 2014-02-23 14:55:35 <sipa> but that requires knowledge of all public keys
1078 2014-02-23 14:55:36 <arubi> that's pretty cool
1079 2014-02-23 14:55:39 <arubi> sure
1080 2014-02-23 14:56:43 <arubi> well thanks sipa !
1081 2014-02-23 14:56:54 <sipa> yw
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1103 2014-02-23 15:23:26 <leofidus-ger> what is the recommended way to send a transaction through the json-rpc api and later confirm that it went through?
1104 2014-02-23 15:23:42 <leofidus-ger> with the intend of automatically handling failed transactions
1105 2014-02-23 15:24:27 <leofidus-ger> so just saving the txid would probably be a bad idea because of malleability
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1138 2014-02-23 16:15:39 <leofidus-ger> anybody?
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1141 2014-02-23 16:19:44 <Imbue> check that the input has been consumed?
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1146 2014-02-23 16:23:03 <leofidus-ger> That sounds like a good idea.
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1149 2014-02-23 16:23:57 <Imbue> if I am following you, the aim of what you are doing may need to be corrected
1150 2014-02-23 16:24:16 <Imbue> if a transaction is 'failed' (i.e. it was signed but not confirmed for whatever reason)
1151 2014-02-23 16:24:31 <Imbue> if you are to reissue it, you must re-use the initial inputs
1152 2014-02-23 16:25:27 <leofidus-ger> to make sure that it can't be send twice if the initial transaction confirms later?
1153 2014-02-23 16:25:29 <Imbue> in a sense, this means you don't really _need_ to check if it has 'failed', it is just nice, because you avoid having invalid transactions bouncing around the network
1154 2014-02-23 16:25:37 <Imbue> yes
1155 2014-02-23 16:26:43 <leofidus-ger> Didn't think of that
1156 2014-02-23 16:26:46 <Imbue> basically you must either a) consider it spent, regardless of whether it is on the chain or b) 'double spend' the input back to yourself, and then once that has confirmed you are free to make a new tx
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1158 2014-02-23 16:27:01 <Imbue> or double spend the input to the original recipient of course
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1161 2014-02-23 16:28:09 <Imbue> because your unconfirmed tx might be hiding on my HDD. someone who knows more about the protocol may be able to say whether this tx ever 'times out' or if I can send it next year and watch it go through :p
1162 2014-02-23 16:28:36 <sipa> it could still go through a year from now
1163 2014-02-23 16:28:47 <leofidus-ger> good point :D
1164 2014-02-23 16:29:06 <sipa> assuming the inputs are available, a valid transaction never becomes invalid
1165 2014-02-23 16:29:21 <leofidus-ger> or a malicious node could potentially successfully hold it back and relay it later
1166 2014-02-23 16:29:45 <Imbue> indeed
1167 2014-02-23 16:30:20 <leofidus-ger> So I could store the initial raw transaction and if the inputs haven't been used in the blockchain after x blocks I just send the same raw transaction again? Or is that something that the client already does?
1168 2014-02-23 16:30:38 <leofidus-ger> using bitcoind as client obviously
1169 2014-02-23 16:30:45 <sipa> transactions in your wallet are rebroadcasted periodically
1170 2014-02-23 16:30:48 <sipa> until they confirm
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1172 2014-02-23 16:31:41 <leofidus-ger> great
1173 2014-02-23 16:33:13 <leofidus-ger> suppose my transaction is included into the blockchain with a different txid, both transactions would be visible in listtransactions in bitcoind?
1174 2014-02-23 16:33:28 <sipa> yes
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1177 2014-02-23 16:35:22 <leofidus-ger> Soif that happens I can just look through transactions that I haven't issued myself (according to my external bookkeeping) and search those for one that uses the same inputs
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1409 2014-02-23 19:56:14 <BW^-> is there more than one textual format representation of a bitcoin address?
1410 2014-02-23 19:56:34 <BW^-> where is there a reference-quality validator of human readable bitcoin address string?
1411 2014-02-23 19:56:52 <robonerd> hm, good questions
1412 2014-02-23 19:57:17 <BW^-> robonerd: what are the answers?
1413 2014-02-23 19:57:26 <BW^-> for sure BitcoinD has a validator in it
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1415 2014-02-23 19:58:18 <antephialtic> BW^-: see this file https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/base58.h
1416 2014-02-23 19:59:24 <antephialtic> also read this wiki page: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_Bitcoin_addresses
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1455 2014-02-23 20:45:48 <Mqrius> Is there a web interface for finding a blockchain transaction of a certain amount of bitcoins around a specific date?
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1470 2014-02-23 21:08:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BW^-: really, an address is just a certain encoding of a pubkey hash
1471 2014-02-23 21:09:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You could theoretically use any format you want to convey that hash, and use it to create transactions
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1527 2014-02-23 22:10:26 <rgenito> i've been looking for an article on this, but cannot find one... what can a merchant (or exchange) do to prevent someone scamming them with a transaction malleability attack?
1528 2014-02-23 22:12:36 <lechuga_> gmaxwell's reddit post/subsequent replies just made me spit out my coffee
1529 2014-02-23 22:12:42 <lechuga_> and i wasn't even drinking any
1530 2014-02-23 22:12:47 <jakov> link?
1531 2014-02-23 22:13:01 <lechuga_> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ymwzj/mtgox_still_authoring_invalid_transactions/
1532 2014-02-23 22:13:31 <lechuga_> the curmudgeon comment was prob the best but there r at least a couple gems in there
1533 2014-02-23 22:14:48 <rgenito> lechuga_: lol
1534 2014-02-23 22:14:59 <rgenito> ty for sharing :)
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1536 2014-02-23 22:17:00 <Zarutian> rgenito: not watch for the txnid to show up in a block. Rather look for kind of an triple of (from:exchange, to:customer, amount:x)
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1538 2014-02-23 22:17:44 <rgenito> Zarutian: so basically, it's best that the merchant records the txid that their client reports after they send the coins?
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1540 2014-02-23 22:18:01 <rgenito> (that way, when someone gives them a different txid, they say, "um, not sure what tx you're talkin about, but that's not ours!")
1541 2014-02-23 22:18:34 <emowataji> rgenito: it's best not to use the txid. check the address you gave the user and see if the right amount is deposited in it.
1542 2014-02-23 22:19:37 <rgenito> ahh, so it's best not to even consider the txid when dealing with these matters... better to look up the address via blockchain?
1543 2014-02-23 22:19:39 <emowataji> rgenito: otherwise if you use the txid their client records and it is beaten by a malleable one then you won't record that it happened
1544 2014-02-23 22:19:49 <emowataji> rgenito: imo yes
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1546 2014-02-23 22:20:00 <emowataji> rgenito: this is made easier if you use unique addresses
1547 2014-02-23 22:20:07 <rgenito> emowataji: i figured that my company would only use the txid that our client generated.
1548 2014-02-23 22:20:43 <emowataji> rgenito: unfortunately that will just look like the transaction is stuck or never confirms if a malleable one gets in the block
1549 2014-02-23 22:21:30 <emowataji> rgenito: it's a bit annoying. I used to provide the txid to the user as a way for them to track withdrawals but now that's unreliable.
1550 2014-02-23 22:22:04 <rgenito> oooh you're right... if the malleable one gets in the block, then "our" txid can disappear
1551 2014-02-23 22:22:13 <emowataji> rgenito: right
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1553 2014-02-23 22:22:30 <rgenito> is there an API command to check the address? (say, if i dont feel like going to blockchain.info anymore?)
1554 2014-02-23 22:22:51 <emowataji> rgenito: getreceivedbyaddress
1555 2014-02-23 22:23:15 <rgenito> thanks! i guess the idea will be to always look at the receive address given to a customer...
1556 2014-02-23 22:23:24 <emowataji> rgenito: yes
1557 2014-02-23 22:23:29 <rgenito> "welp, looks like we sent the coins, there are 0 confirmations. just gotta wait for it to be picked up!"
1558 2014-02-23 22:23:43 <rgenito> txid only works in an honest world... perhaps txid should be removed @.@
1559 2014-02-23 22:23:44 <emowataji> rgenito: if you don't use unique addresses per transaction just track the balance returned by getreceivedbyaddress vs the balance held in your system
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1562 2014-02-23 22:25:17 <rgenito> makes sense
1563 2014-02-23 22:25:36 <emowataji> rgenito: also make sure you are using a bitcoind with the change that stops it from using unconfirmed change transactions
1564 2014-02-23 22:25:54 <emowataji> rgenito: otherwise you risk building chains of unconfirmed transactions
1565 2014-02-23 22:26:21 <emowataji> rgenito: or make sure your payments only happen when all sent transactions have a couple of confirmations
1566 2014-02-23 22:26:36 <rgenito> oooh, are you saying that some bitcoind versions have a "getreceivedbyaddress" that has a balance which includes unconfirmed change addresses?
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1569 2014-02-23 22:27:09 <emowataji> rgenito: no, what happens is that bitcoind thinks unconfirmed change is safe so in some circumstances can select those coins as inputs for other transactions
1570 2014-02-23 22:27:18 <emowataji> rgenito: but in a malleable world this is an unsafe assumption
1571 2014-02-23 22:27:20 <rgenito> ahh
1572 2014-02-23 22:27:49 <rgenito> does bitcoind 0.9+ disregard unconfirmed change to use as input for other transactions?
1573 2014-02-23 22:28:13 <rgenito> i feel as if one day i'll end up developing in the bitcoin world... i seem to be learning more and more about the raw engineering part of it... lol
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1575 2014-02-23 22:28:30 <emowataji> rgenito: I believe there were patches to that effect with a command line argument to enable/disable landed recently
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1580 2014-02-23 22:30:58 <emowataji> rgenito: the other approach is to queue payments
1581 2014-02-23 22:31:08 <rgenito> ah ya know what... i have an idea, tell me if this works:
1582 2014-02-23 22:31:14 <emowataji> rgenito: and empty the queue at regular intervals, ensuring there are no 0-conf transactions outstanding first.
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1584 2014-02-23 22:31:36 <rgenito> the solution is to USE txid's. and here's how:
1585 2014-02-23 22:31:53 <rgenito> (i should make a workflow chart of this)
1586 2014-02-23 22:32:29 <rgenito> 1) when customer requests transaction, record company wallet's reported txid
1587 2014-02-23 22:33:54 <rgenito> 2) when customer complains, if their supplied txid doesn't match ours in system, they're talking about a txid that we never supplied them with
1588 2014-02-23 22:34:22 <rgenito> 3) looking at a customer txid that matches the one we have on file... then that means we DID send the transaction (hence, we have a transaction piece of informatioN)
1589 2014-02-23 22:34:34 <rgenito> 4) never resend any transactions. only use txid for info purposes
1590 2014-02-23 22:34:49 <rgenito> (if txid is present, then the transaction happened no matter what)
1591 2014-02-23 22:35:14 <rgenito> <--- done
1592 2014-02-23 22:35:28 <emowataji> rgenito: it may not have happened if it's based on an uncofirmed change output chain
1593 2014-02-23 22:35:30 <rgenito> ^-- i've learned more from that lol
1594 2014-02-23 22:35:38 <rgenito> emowataji: correct
1595 2014-02-23 22:35:53 <emowataji> other than that, yes, for info purposes only it's good
1596 2014-02-23 22:35:56 <rgenito> 5) if the transaction didn't happen, then tell user, "oh well, i guess ya just gotta wait a little more. we don't control the btc network, it controls itself. remember?"
1597 2014-02-23 22:36:13 * porquilho sometimes uses ⌜∃ x | P(x). Q(x)⌝ for ⌜∃ x. (P(x) ∧ Q(x))⌝ and ⌜∀ x | P(x). Q(x)⌝ for ⌜∀ x. (P(x) ⇒ Q(x))⌝
1598 2014-02-23 22:36:40 <emowataji> rgenito: it'll never happen though in the change output case
1599 2014-02-23 22:36:51 <emowataji> rgenito: so you'll need a manual step to fix those up
1600 2014-02-23 22:36:59 <rgenito> it appears the lesson is: "consider any txid as something that could've been altered. never use txid for judgement on whether to request, sent, or hold onto coins :D"
1601 2014-02-23 22:37:54 <Luke-Jr> I'd think the lesson is more of "don't use unconfirmed coins, even if they're yours"
1602 2014-02-23 22:37:59 <rgenito> emowataji: correct, the whole change thing seems to be something very important to consider
1603 2014-02-23 22:38:33 <Luke-Jr> [22:09:59] <rgenito> i've been looking for an article on this, but cannot find one… what can a merchant (or exchange) do to prevent someone scamming them with a transaction malleability attack? <-- don't send people coins twice; done!
1604 2014-02-23 22:38:33 <rgenito> ahh true, thx everyone! i'm determined to map this out now...
1605 2014-02-23 22:38:56 <Luke-Jr> you can only get scammed if you pay people twice (or more..)
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1621 2014-02-23 22:53:46 <rgenito> back @.@ with another question... anyone can obviously send a transaction to pub address A. how come A cannot be its own change address? -.-
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1623 2014-02-23 22:54:47 <weex> rgenito: it can be but generally address reuse is discouraged
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1625 2014-02-23 22:56:58 <rgenito> i see... so let's say A sends some coins to B and C (change address). 10 minutes go by... can C be used as input for a transaction sent to D?
1626 2014-02-23 22:57:48 <sipa> yes
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1628 2014-02-23 22:58:29 <weex> no need to wait 10 minutes though
1629 2014-02-23 22:58:52 <rgenito> sweeet. 1 second could go by i'm sure and it'd still work
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1634 2014-02-23 23:03:08 <leofidus-ger> Why is address reuse discouraged?
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1638 2014-02-23 23:03:25 <sipa> bad for privacy
1639 2014-02-23 23:03:33 <leofidus-ger> for private wallets I see the privacy implications, but what about public services?
1640 2014-02-23 23:03:36 <sipa> (not just yours, everyone using the system)
1641 2014-02-23 23:04:16 <sipa> even for public services, it's better to be able to selectively reveal ledger entries
1642 2014-02-23 23:04:35 <sipa> rather than having everyone's information about interacting with it public
1643 2014-02-23 23:05:08 <leofidus-ger> ok, that makes sence
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1650 2014-02-23 23:13:58 <antephialtic> what's a good issue on github to try contributing to bitcoin-core?
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1677 2014-02-23 23:40:15 <Luke-Jr> antephialtic: unit tests
1678 2014-02-23 23:40:27 <Luke-Jr> antephialtic: or one of the existing pull requests, testing it
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1680 2014-02-23 23:43:30 <todamoon> hi all. can anyone explain me why 10 mins / block was chosen by satoshi?
1681 2014-02-23 23:43:38 <todamoon> are there drawbacks to having a shorter confirmation time?
1682 2014-02-23 23:44:59 <sipa> the block interval needs to be significantly longer than the block propagation time (with large blocks, which you may not notice initially)
1683 2014-02-23 23:45:08 <sipa> otherwise, you get a higher forking rate
1684 2014-02-23 23:45:33 <gmaxwell> at the limit of very short interval the network would effectively stop converging entirely.
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1686 2014-02-23 23:46:07 <todamoon> I see
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1689 2014-02-23 23:46:53 <Luke-Jr> the more blocks, the faster the minimum footprint for a SPV client as well
1690 2014-02-23 23:47:01 <Luke-Jr> faster it grows in size, I mean
1691 2014-02-23 23:47:14 <Luke-Jr> also, 10 minutes is arguably the shortest reasonable confirmation time
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1693 2014-02-23 23:47:47 <Luke-Jr> (nevermind that *most* blocks are under 10 minutes, since the long-block time is unbounded)
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1696 2014-02-23 23:48:38 <Luke-Jr> probably a longer block time would be better, except for the fact that it's only an averagre
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1708 2014-02-23 23:54:13 <todamoon> has this been an issue for altcoins that use lower average confirmation times?
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1710 2014-02-23 23:55:08 <gmaxwell> todamoon: there have been ones that have completely imploded due to it— yes. But only with really insane settings.... most altcoin have virtually no transactions, nor people who notice their level of reorgs.
1711 2014-02-23 23:55:25 <todamoon> right
1712 2014-02-23 23:55:42 <gmaxwell> (e.g. "liquidcoin" failed into non-convergence due to blocks being found too fast)
1713 2014-02-23 23:55:51 <todamoon> haha ok
1714 2014-02-23 23:56:16 <todamoon> do you see it as a possiblity that bitcoin might have to "hard fork" some time in the future?
1715 2014-02-23 23:56:50 <gmaxwell> Why do you ask?
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1717 2014-02-23 23:57:03 <todamoon> just curious if bitcoin devs see it as a possibility
1718 2014-02-23 23:57:13 <todamoon> or if they will do all in their power to keep the protocol fixed
1719 2014-02-23 23:57:17 <gmaxwell> Not one to be taken lightly.
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1721 2014-02-23 23:57:55 <todamoon> right
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1723 2014-02-23 23:58:43 <todamoon> there's 2 things I'm a bit worried about.. block size and possibility of fee increase as rewards get smaller