1 2014-02-24 00:00:56 <todamoon> so far, the best potential solution I've heard is the use of off chain transactions
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3 2014-02-24 00:01:43 <todamoon> or a hard fork that would address those issues if/when they become critical
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9 2014-02-24 00:05:25 <todamoon> gmaxwell: do you see those as potential issues?
10 2014-02-24 00:06:03 <gmaxwell> There are many potential issues, and all of these things exist in a complicated space of many tradeoffs.
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12 2014-02-24 00:06:40 <gmaxwell> I am more concerned about the centeralization of Bitcoin, since centeralizing it moots its purpose. Navigating parameters that yield the best effective decenteralization is hard.
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14 2014-02-24 00:07:11 <todamoon> centralization by miners and large shared wallets?
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16 2014-02-24 00:08:28 <gmaxwell> among other causesâ it's not like additional blocksize is free. or that difficulty can sustain itself to preserve POW as a working security mechenism without non-trivial fee income.
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18 2014-02-24 00:09:19 <gmaxwell> We've already violated the original security model with the situation we have now where single computers have commanded 1/3rd to as much as 1/2 of the hashpower.
19 2014-02-24 00:10:25 <todamoon> presumably, it's in the best interest of miners to not exploit their power but I understand your concern
20 2014-02-24 00:10:38 <todamoon> do you think proof-of-stake would be a viable alternative to POW?
21 2014-02-24 00:11:10 <gmaxwell> thats like arguing it's in the best interest of the fed to not exploit their power, and it ignores the issue when someone compromises that infrastructure (which has happened and has been used to rob a bitcoin site)
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23 2014-02-24 00:11:31 <gmaxwell> (part of the reason that I find things like that more concerning is because its a quiet problem; vs things like fees or transaction throughput are immediately self-evidence)
24 2014-02-24 00:12:00 <gmaxwell> todamoon: So far no one has demonstrated a PoS formulation which is a viable consensus mechnism on its own, I suspect it's not actually possible, which is indeed a bummer.
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26 2014-02-24 00:13:01 <todamoon> I see
27 2014-02-24 00:13:23 <gmaxwell> todamoon: (The PoS mechenisms all suffer from the nothing at stake problem: PoW encourages consensus because you forever burn a valuable resource to mine it, so you want to burn that resource on the one unique chain most likely to survive. In PoS the optimal rational strategy is to mine all possible forks that you do not hate. Results in some funny attacks where you PoW-like grind the PoS to find the history where you are the lucky ...
28 2014-02-24 00:13:29 <gmaxwell> ... winner for every block.)
29 2014-02-24 00:13:39 <todamoon> it just seems inevitable that there is no technical means to avoid miner centralization though
30 2014-02-24 00:13:46 <todamoon> only social means
31 2014-02-24 00:14:13 <todamoon> I see
32 2014-02-24 00:14:30 <gmaxwell> todamoon: well there are technical means but they don't have the right tradeoffs, I expect. There isn't a lot of actual advantage in the centeralization we have today, it's just symmetry breaking that went wrong as far as I can tell.
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34 2014-02-24 00:15:30 <jcorgan> i think it is an inevitable effect of differences in mining operation efficiencies and economies of scale, visible in many industries, that the market converges to a power-law based size distribution; the distribution of hash power seems to fit this.
35 2014-02-24 00:16:00 <gmaxwell> (it's perfectly possible to pool mining without pooling control of the netwrok, but thats not what got implemented. Changing the status quo is hard, esp now that you've got miners with >100k of mining gear running it off a rpi.)
36 2014-02-24 00:16:56 <todamoon> right now, pools "dictate" the block to miners?
37 2014-02-24 00:17:01 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: centeralization in mining today has relatively little to do with the centeralization of hashing. The largest entity I'm aware of has ~7% of the network's hashpower, compared to pools in the 30-50% range. 7% seems less concerning to me.
38 2014-02-24 00:17:14 <sipa> i'd rather say it's hashers who sell their right to vote to a pool
39 2014-02-24 00:17:26 <gmaxwell> todamoon: may be better to call the people who are running mining hardware "hashers" not miners.
40 2014-02-24 00:17:51 <gmaxwell> todamoon: for all pools except P2Pool, effectively.
41 2014-02-24 00:17:56 <todamoon> I see
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43 2014-02-24 00:18:31 <todamoon> I was under the impression that pool hashers were free to build their own block so I didn't see the problem with pools controlling a large part of the hash rate
44 2014-02-24 00:18:45 <sipa> that's how it should be
45 2014-02-24 00:18:56 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: i'd including pools in that distribution
46 2014-02-24 00:19:00 <sipa> but no, hashers usually don't know what block they're really working on
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48 2014-02-24 00:19:24 <gmaxwell> But thats not what got implemented, I don't think anyone really realized that was possible at first. Getwork sort of encourages thinking in terms of controlling the whole thing.
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51 2014-02-24 00:19:56 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: sure, but thats not necessary, it's perfectly possible to pool for payments without handing over control. It just isn't what got implemented.
52 2014-02-24 00:20:35 <todamoon> how many core devs are paid for their work by the way?
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54 2014-02-24 00:20:50 <todamoon> I understand Gavin gets a salary from the bitcoin foundation?
55 2014-02-24 00:20:57 <gmaxwell> todamoon: Gavin and Wumpus recieve paychecks from the Bitcoin foundation. Jgarzik works for Bitpay.
56 2014-02-24 00:21:07 <todamoon> gmaxwell: thanks
57 2014-02-24 00:22:23 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: agree; i think your symmetry breaking argument and my hash rate distribution argument are orthogonal
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162 2014-02-24 02:11:57 <kanzure> gmaxwell: re: "proof of storage" i was looking at this thread, https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/maidsafe-development/W-n-IQ_TUis
163 2014-02-24 02:12:25 <gmaxwell> kanzure: #bitcoin-wizards is actually the right channel. :)
164 2014-02-24 02:12:51 <kanzure> oh hrm
165 2014-02-24 02:13:08 <kanzure> understood, will proceed to use magic
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167 2014-02-24 02:13:28 <gmaxwell> (people should be able to follow this channel to keep up with whats going on in the bitcoin ecosystem, so cryptographic dreaming mostly goes to -wizards)
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169 2014-02-24 02:14:20 <davvblack> C++ noob, how come there's actually stuff defined in some of the .h files, more than just interfaces? For example, hundreds of lines of actual implementation in wallet.h. Shouldn't that all be in wallet.cpp?
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172 2014-02-24 02:15:24 <davvblack> CWallet is particularly weird, almost all of it in the .h is interface stuff, but some parts are completely implented
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186 2014-02-24 02:38:33 <andytoshi> davvblack: because satoshi is an asshole
187 2014-02-24 02:38:39 <davvblack> haha
188 2014-02-24 02:38:49 <davvblack> notch-like?
189 2014-02-24 02:39:14 <andytoshi> davvblack: eg check out CAutoFile, it overloads *, & and -> to make it act like a FILE* in a bunch of contexts
190 2014-02-24 02:39:27 <davvblack> :/
191 2014-02-24 02:39:42 <davvblack> why...
192 2014-02-24 02:40:46 <davvblack> ugh.
193 2014-02-24 02:40:55 <jcorgan> unfortunately, it seems satoshi was not a software engineer by profession
194 2014-02-24 02:41:08 <davvblack> and it's all in serialize.h
195 2014-02-24 02:41:48 <jgarzik> CAutoFile is an RAII wrapper
196 2014-02-24 02:42:30 <gmaxwell> some of the stuff you're complaining about was not in the original codebase... and is actually pretty reasonable.
197 2014-02-24 02:42:36 <jgarzik> serialization would have been protocol buffers or another standard, had Satoshi known about it. He said he would have preferred not to roll his own serialization. That said, the serialization itself is pretty straightforward, and works well in C++ classes and compositions.
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199 2014-02-24 02:43:38 <jcorgan> but--we have what we have, and can at least make incremental improvements, if not wholesale refactoring
200 2014-02-24 02:43:43 <jgarzik> the original codebase at least knew RAII, which eliminated many common errors by design
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202 2014-02-24 02:44:41 <gmaxwell> glad he didn't use protobuf or we'd be much worse off on malleability. :P
203 2014-02-24 02:44:53 <jgarzik> true
204 2014-02-24 02:44:56 <antephialtic> "The reason I didn't use protocol buffers or boost serialization is because they looked too complex to make absolutely airtight and secure. Their code is too large to read and be sure that there's no way to form an input that would do something unexpected."
205 2014-02-24 02:45:05 <antephialtic> - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=632.15
206 2014-02-24 02:45:24 <gmaxwell> and what prefab encoding he did use ultimately did screw us some too.
207 2014-02-24 02:45:51 <gmaxwell> (e.g. openssl's DER implementation happily making sense of gibberish encodings)
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209 2014-02-24 02:46:18 <jgarzik> antephialtic, there ya go... (I misremembered)
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249 2014-02-24 03:23:41 <andytoshi> charlesy:
250 2014-02-24 03:23:49 <andytoshi> oops, meant to type that to my WM, sorry
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294 2014-02-24 04:06:14 <antephialtic> here's a talk that gives a nice overview of BIP 70 by Kevin Greene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGj7TBD_Pfo
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299 2014-02-24 04:10:30 <Genitrust> I am having a hard time verifying this online, but is the minimum transaction 5000 satoshi? or 5400 satoshi?
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302 2014-02-24 04:12:47 <davvblack> 5460 iirc
303 2014-02-24 04:13:20 <Genitrust> i'm trying to find a reference to this amount on the bitcoin wiki... no luck ;(
304 2014-02-24 04:13:35 <davvblack> from core.h
305 2014-02-24 04:13:38 <davvblack> bool IsDust(int64_t nMinRelayTxFee) const
306 2014-02-24 04:13:39 <davvblack> {
307 2014-02-24 04:13:40 <davvblack> // "Dust" is defined in terms of CTransaction::nMinRelayTxFee,
308 2014-02-24 04:13:44 <davvblack> // which has units satoshis-per-kilobyte.
309 2014-02-24 04:13:45 <davvblack> // If you'd pay more than 1/3 in fees
310 2014-02-24 04:13:47 <davvblack> // to spend something, then we consider it dust.
311 2014-02-24 04:13:48 <davvblack> // A typical txout is 34 bytes big, and will
312 2014-02-24 04:13:50 <davvblack> // need a CTxIn of at least 148 bytes to spend,
313 2014-02-24 04:13:51 <davvblack> // so dust is a txout less than 54 uBTC
314 2014-02-24 04:13:53 <davvblack> // (5460 satoshis) with default nMinRelayTxFee
315 2014-02-24 04:13:54 <davvblack> return ((nValue*1000)/(3*((int)GetSerializeSize(SER_DISK,0)+148)) < nMinRelayTxFee);
316 2014-02-24 04:13:54 <davvblack> }
317 2014-02-24 04:14:05 SwampTony has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
318 2014-02-24 04:14:06 <davvblack> pretty authoritative source :)
319 2014-02-24 04:14:16 owowo has joined
320 2014-02-24 04:14:31 <Genitrust> davvblack, NICE @.@
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323 2014-02-24 04:15:31 <davvblack> and put that in the bitcoin wiki if it wasn't there.
324 2014-02-24 04:15:33 <Genitrust> davvblack, so therefore, if any tx is less than 5460 satoshis, then can a fee of 0.0001 be used to transfer said satoshis? :D
325 2014-02-24 04:15:44 <davvblack> uh⦠I think the nodes won't relay it
326 2014-02-24 04:15:53 <davvblack> but if you're willing to pay more fees than output, I'm not sure, maybe they will?
327 2014-02-24 04:15:57 <gmaxwell> Genitrust: just put the 'fee' in the output, increasing the output size.
328 2014-02-24 04:16:16 <gmaxwell> You cannot get past the rule with more fees, increase your output size (just put what you were going to put into fee into the output)
329 2014-02-24 04:16:46 <Genitrust> gmaxwell, there are a couple of things i'm wondering... and it mainly has to do with the change address. for example:
330 2014-02-24 04:17:11 <gmaxwell> Genitrust: we'll avoid taking dust change, if the change would have beenâ sayâ 1 satoshi, we'll just turn it into fee and take no change.
331 2014-02-24 04:17:25 <Genitrust> A has 1 address as input, and the outputs are B (1 BTC) and C ... C's size is 500 satoshi. now C contains 500 satoshi...
332 2014-02-24 04:17:45 <Genitrust> ooooh...
333 2014-02-24 04:18:09 <Genitrust> so if change ends up to be less than 5460 satoshi, then that change just automatically becomes the tx fee?
334 2014-02-24 04:18:19 <gmaxwell> yes.
335 2014-02-24 04:18:58 <Genitrust> is exactly 5460 satoshi, then it actually gets stored in the proper output address, yes?
336 2014-02-24 04:19:32 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
337 2014-02-24 04:20:02 <davvblack> yeah
338 2014-02-24 04:20:05 <davvblack> note the < above
339 2014-02-24 04:20:57 <gmaxwell> Genitrust: the wallet code just checs to see if the change fails the IsDust test, and if it doesn't it adds it to the fees and abandons having change.
340 2014-02-24 04:21:24 _ImI_ has joined
341 2014-02-24 04:21:34 <Genitrust> ah ok, makes sense
342 2014-02-24 04:21:53 <Genitrust> gmaxwell, great job with your support in this community... you're beyond awesome.
343 2014-02-24 04:22:05 <Genitrust> and ty davvblack , that code paste was sweet :D haha
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366 2014-02-24 04:47:11 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: heads up, I'm fixing the byte order of hash
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391 2014-02-24 05:31:28 <davec> I was playing around with generating regtest blocks and noticed there is a weird
392 2014-02-24 05:31:31 <davec> interaction in regards to the new canoncial encoding of integers 1-16 as
393 2014-02-24 05:31:33 <davec> OP_1-OP_16 when in the coinbase script. AcceptTransaction specifically denies
394 2014-02-24 05:31:36 <davec> coinbase scripts on version 2 blocks with sigScripts length < 2 bytes. On
395 2014-02-24 05:31:39 <davec> main net, this clearly doesn't matter, but on regtest (or possibly a new
396 2014-02-24 05:31:41 <davec> testnet), with version 2 blocks, if the canoncial encoding for integers is used,
397 2014-02-24 05:31:45 <davec> the serialized height for blocks 1-16 will be a single byte thus failing the
398 2014-02-24 05:31:48 <davec> check. I realize that currently << does not do the canonical encoding, so it
399 2014-02-24 05:31:51 <davec> doesn't apply yet, nor are there currently any version 2 blocks that low, but it
400 2014-02-24 05:31:54 <davec> is something to keep in mind as it does mean there is a weird interaction there.
401 2014-02-24 05:31:57 <davec> Likely it will mean that the coinbase script height must start with a
402 2014-02-24 05:31:59 <davec> non-canonical serialized block height (or changing the consensus rule for
403 2014-02-24 05:32:02 <davec> version 3 blocks).
404 2014-02-24 05:32:41 <Luke-Jr> davec: ⦠what are you pasting?
405 2014-02-24 05:32:55 <davec> I just wrote that up
406 2014-02-24 05:33:20 <davec> I hadn't seen any mention of it in the discussion about the new canonical stuff, so thought I'd bring it up
407 2014-02-24 05:34:32 MoALTz has joined
408 2014-02-24 05:34:53 <davec> Luke-Jr: the last two sentences were in response to you - I realized it was probably still pasting
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412 2014-02-24 05:36:42 <Luke-Jr> davec: no, but it's annoyingly wrapped
413 2014-02-24 05:36:54 <Luke-Jr> davec: what check do you think would fail?
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415 2014-02-24 05:39:45 <davec> if (tx.IsCoinBase())
416 2014-02-24 05:39:45 <davec> {
417 2014-02-24 05:39:45 <davec> if (tx.vin[0].scriptSig.size() < 2 || tx.vin[0].scriptSig.size() > 100)
418 2014-02-24 05:40:35 <Luke-Jr> davec: the height isn't the only thing in the coinbase..
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420 2014-02-24 05:40:42 <Luke-Jr> don't forget the extranonce
421 2014-02-24 05:41:18 <davec> fair enough if there is one - but on regtest (currently at least) there isn't
422 2014-02-24 05:41:29 <davec> I did forget about that for testnet
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425 2014-02-24 05:43:36 <davec> anyways, you're right though, it just means the miner needs to put one in there
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597 2014-02-24 08:21:44 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: are we doing our own printf processing now? assuming all numbers are int64 types? O.o
598 2014-02-24 08:22:05 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes, we have our own typesafe sprintf
599 2014-02-24 08:22:13 Guyver2 has quit (Quit: :))
600 2014-02-24 08:22:17 <wumpus> see tinyformat.h
601 2014-02-24 08:22:26 <Luke-Jr> oh, some C++ magic lets us use %d for everything?
602 2014-02-24 08:22:31 <wumpus> it doesn't use varargs, so doesn't care about size specifiers
603 2014-02-24 08:22:44 <wumpus> yes
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606 2014-02-24 08:24:15 <wumpus> we can also use strings without .c_str()
607 2014-02-24 08:24:51 <wumpus> (or any other type that supports << -based formatting IIRC)
608 2014-02-24 08:25:59 <wumpus> the idea was that it ignores the C99 size specifiers, but it cannot cope with the strange MSVC ones
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610 2014-02-24 08:26:37 <wumpus> which is why this whole redifinition exercise is needed...
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612 2014-02-24 08:27:30 <wumpus> an alternative idea would be to make tinyformat aware of MSVC size specifiers, but that's just postponing the problem to the next architecture that defines non-standard characters...
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615 2014-02-24 08:29:24 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: this is actually tested here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/test/util_tests.cpp#L310
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640 2014-02-24 09:00:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, wikilinks on the BIP pages are borked
641 2014-02-24 09:01:02 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: on which page?
642 2014-02-24 09:01:13 <wumpus> just tried BIP 22 and it worked fine
643 2014-02-24 09:01:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: I noticed it on BIP13
644 2014-02-24 09:01:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|They need to be links back to the wiki, not [[links]]
645 2014-02-24 09:01:52 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|looks at 22
646 2014-02-24 09:01:59 <wumpus> oh you mean something else
647 2014-02-24 09:02:05 fanquake has quit (Quit: fanquake)
648 2014-02-24 09:02:08 <wumpus> there shouldn't be links from the BIPs themselves to the wiki, ideally
649 2014-02-24 09:02:17 wallet42 has joined
650 2014-02-24 09:02:26 zer0def has quit (Quit: Quit:)
651 2014-02-24 09:02:26 <wumpus> thought you meant the other way around
652 2014-02-24 09:03:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Looks like all the wikilinks on bip22 are to that page or other bips
653 2014-02-24 09:03:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's fine, because all the bips are on that "wiki"
654 2014-02-24 09:04:02 <wumpus> IMO BIPS should be self-contained as much as possible and not link to the wiki
655 2014-02-24 09:04:19 Zammo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
656 2014-02-24 09:05:04 zer0def has joined
657 2014-02-24 09:05:06 fanquake has joined
658 2014-02-24 09:05:30 jtimon has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
659 2014-02-24 09:05:33 <wumpus> but gmaxwell is the BIP editor so I defer this to him
660 2014-02-24 09:06:08 napedia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
661 2014-02-24 09:06:13 NewNick has joined
662 2014-02-24 09:06:14 <gmaxwell> I agree. Not an outright exclusion, but at least any normative material should be self contained.
663 2014-02-24 09:06:35 <gmaxwell> Additional explanitory material could be links, but more stable content should be preferred.
664 2014-02-24 09:06:47 Neozonz has joined
665 2014-02-24 09:06:49 <wumpus> well there is a section with See also:, as well as references, but I think inline links should be avoided
666 2014-02-24 09:07:34 <wumpus> in the case of BIP 13 the page is doing [[Script]] to make the word Script a link to the wiki page
667 2014-02-24 09:08:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The n<=3 restriction on multisigs is only for raw multisig, right?
668 2014-02-24 09:08:32 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
669 2014-02-24 09:08:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What was the limit on P2SH multisigs?
670 2014-02-24 09:09:27 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
671 2014-02-24 09:09:48 kobayashi_ has joined
672 2014-02-24 09:10:12 mappum_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
673 2014-02-24 09:10:49 <wumpus> http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-core-development-falling-behind-warns-mike-hearn/ well thanks Mike...
674 2014-02-24 09:12:24 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
675 2014-02-24 09:12:31 Jasmin68k has joined
676 2014-02-24 09:13:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...In the meantime, Hearn says, enhanced payments are one of the main thrusts for bitcoin development. This added feature, destined for the bitcoin client software rather than the core protocol, have been on the table for a while, but havenât yet made it into a release. They promise an easier way to make payments than dealing with long addresses, and they
677 2014-02-24 09:13:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|will also include support for memos.
678 2014-02-24 09:13:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Er. That sounds like the Pyament Protocol, which *is* in master
679 2014-02-24 09:13:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And even the RC...
680 2014-02-24 09:14:03 <wumpus> "This didnât make it into the latest version of the core protocol, however, which Hearn takes as another example of lag in a resource-constrained project, while the commercial bitcoin community powers ahead." ... so, let that "commercial bitcoin community" get off its ass and help?
681 2014-02-24 09:14:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right -- that's pretty much what Gavin said the other say, IIRC
682 2014-02-24 09:14:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|day*
683 2014-02-24 09:14:48 <wumpus> this would be like Intel complaining that Linus isn't doing enough work on Intel's new features, without lending out development help
684 2014-02-24 09:16:11 rodarmor has joined
685 2014-02-24 09:17:10 <Luke-Jr> or Google insisting their patches get merged into Linux as-is or not at all (more or less)
686 2014-02-24 09:17:12 <wumpus> and for example, HD wallets didn't make it into bitcoinj either yet, so how far is bitcoinj ahead really?
687 2014-02-24 09:17:27 yubrew has joined
688 2014-02-24 09:17:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, I hadn't heard Gox resigned from the Foundation
689 2014-02-24 09:17:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: Er?
690 2014-02-24 09:17:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Can they do that?
691 2014-02-24 09:17:56 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: you mean their Android patches?
692 2014-02-24 09:18:17 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
693 2014-02-24 09:19:12 <Luke-Jr> yes
694 2014-02-24 09:19:30 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: they didn't really "get away with" it
695 2014-02-24 09:19:46 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: essentially, Android was (is?) a fork of Linux, not really Linux proper
696 2014-02-24 09:21:41 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
697 2014-02-24 09:22:58 stonecoldpat has joined
698 2014-02-24 09:23:27 disident has joined
699 2014-02-24 09:23:53 disident has left ()
700 2014-02-24 09:24:14 random_cat has joined
701 2014-02-24 09:25:35 <wumpus> android uses a fork of the linux kernel with some extra features (but only the kernel, not the rest of the ecosystem), some of which are quite neat, others wouldn't really fit into the normal linux ecosystem
702 2014-02-24 09:25:45 jogos has joined
703 2014-02-24 09:28:53 benrcole has joined
704 2014-02-24 09:31:11 benrcole1 has joined
705 2014-02-24 09:33:18 _ImI_ has joined
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708 2014-02-24 09:33:44 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
709 2014-02-24 09:33:53 <venzen> sometimes projects produce great forks - i'm thinking of the WRT router project, and LEAF (cutdown embedded linux) - Android is a fine example of that even if Google are not :p
710 2014-02-24 09:36:07 <Mqrius> New iPhone and OSX bug: they broke SSL/TLS. You _do not_ want to use your Apple devices the coming few days, unless you want to lose your bank account, email, etc. IPhone has an update ready, OSX doesn't yet.
711 2014-02-24 09:36:08 benrcole1 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
712 2014-02-24 09:37:35 <stonecoldpat> Mqrius: as long as your on a private network you should be "ok"
713 2014-02-24 09:38:09 <stonecoldpat> Mqrius: plus just use google chrome, thats not effected by bug
714 2014-02-24 09:38:15 wallet42 has joined
715 2014-02-24 09:38:38 <Mqrius> stonecoldpat: unless another computer on your private network is compromised. Maybe you have an "insecure" computer on which you don't do banking etc
716 2014-02-24 09:39:02 <Mqrius> stonecoldpat: you're right, but I'm still telling everyone not to use it at all until there's a patch :p
717 2014-02-24 09:39:20 <stonecoldpat> Mqrius: no of course, good on you for raising awareness :)
718 2014-02-24 09:39:39 <stonecoldpat> http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/02/extremely-critical-crypto-flaw-in-ios-may-also-affect-fully-patched-macs/ gives example of the code error, its a joke tbh
719 2014-02-24 09:39:43 <Mqrius> Chrome works, except if you have desktop widgets syncing in the background for example.
720 2014-02-24 09:40:01 <wumpus> looks like a merge error
721 2014-02-24 09:40:11 NewNick has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
722 2014-02-24 09:40:11 zrad has joined
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724 2014-02-24 09:40:57 mappum_ has joined
725 2014-02-24 09:41:01 <wumpus> a very common one, at that, some linters/code checkers catch those
726 2014-02-24 09:41:24 <stonecoldpat> yeah, i think some compilers would have picked it up as some code becomes unreachable
727 2014-02-24 09:43:27 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
728 2014-02-24 09:43:36 Ksipax has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
729 2014-02-24 09:43:50 Persopolis has joined
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735 2014-02-24 09:49:49 zrad has quit (Quit: Leaving)
736 2014-02-24 09:51:17 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
737 2014-02-24 09:51:48 lmatteis has joined
738 2014-02-24 09:52:29 <wumpus> yes
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740 2014-02-24 09:53:46 Blackreign has joined
741 2014-02-24 09:54:45 Eiii has quit (!NA@unaffiliated/eiii|)
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748 2014-02-24 10:05:00 knotwork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
749 2014-02-24 10:05:28 <wumpus> bitcoind could probably benefit from more extensive static analysis too, although doing that for C++ is rocket science in itself
750 2014-02-24 10:06:03 knotwork has joined
751 2014-02-24 10:06:20 wateratosthenes has joined
752 2014-02-24 10:06:36 <jgarzik> wumpus, heh, true enough
753 2014-02-24 10:06:51 <jgarzik> The kernel had pretty good code analysis tools
754 2014-02-24 10:07:03 <wumpus> yes, Linux does that pretty well
755 2014-02-24 10:07:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, is this transaction invalid, or merely nonstandard?
756 2014-02-24 10:07:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|0100000002248930A44AEA511EBE6E05986395EB470FC1AA896369C92FA979A68E35C856D20000000005515102AC91FFFFFFFFDA36DA91BA768A3F9779AD2FEDEA2AEE62CFC16560C15FFB5432E1160701DF380000000008005151515102AE91FFFFFFFF0170281200000000001976A91425F745A99EDB5C193383EF8BA4762EF91B56FC8388ACFF000000
757 2014-02-24 10:07:37 Cocodude has left ()
758 2014-02-24 10:07:45 <jgarzik> The project was big enough that it attracted multiple players who build static analysis tools, and would routinely post results of their audits. The first generation was pretty crappy, catching all sorts of correct-code-that-scares-most-C-coders.
759 2014-02-24 10:07:46 <wumpus> maybe mozilla could help, they have a huge C++ codebase and I know they have some efforts going on
760 2014-02-24 10:07:56 <jgarzik> The second generation got sophisticated, and caught many kernel bugs.
761 2014-02-24 10:08:12 <jgarzik> Now the static analysis is run routinely at many sites, like our pull tester
762 2014-02-24 10:08:30 <gmaxwell> wumpus: clang's scan-build stuff reports nothing, IIRC, which is sort of concerning in and of itself.
763 2014-02-24 10:08:49 ziggamon has joined
764 2014-02-24 10:09:57 <wumpus> jgarzik: indeed, most 'code checkers' used in companies check for simple patterns, including a lot of false positives that are correct but just a bit strange, kind of distracting from real bugs... but it does appear that more thorough analysis can be useful
765 2014-02-24 10:10:11 adam3us has joined
766 2014-02-24 10:10:41 <wumpus> gmaxwell: clang's static checker didn't support C++ very well, at least back when I tried
767 2014-02-24 10:11:05 <wumpus> it was mostly aimed at objective C...
768 2014-02-24 10:11:32 <gmaxwell> it does a pretty great job on C, I'd take it over coverity most of the time (coverity tries too hard to suppress false positives I think)
769 2014-02-24 10:11:50 yubrew has joined
770 2014-02-24 10:12:26 songz has joined
771 2014-02-24 10:13:06 <wumpus> yes for C is also works well
772 2014-02-24 10:13:17 <airbreather> michagogo|cloud, according to https://blockchain.info/decode-tx, the script on the first input is 0x515102ac91 -- 0x51 is "next 81 bytes are data to push onto the stack", but clearly the script only has 4 bytes. I'm going with invalid unless there's something I'm missing.
773 2014-02-24 10:13:39 <airbreather> s/4 bytes/4 more bytes/
774 2014-02-24 10:13:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|airbreather: no, it's OP_1
775 2014-02-24 10:13:52 <airbreather> and yes I'm missing something obvious
776 2014-02-24 10:13:54 <airbreather> thanks
777 2014-02-24 10:14:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's only 0x01-0x4b that do that
778 2014-02-24 10:14:36 <airbreather> yup... was looking at the wrong column on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
779 2014-02-24 10:16:10 <wumpus> the order of the script opcodes sometimes confuses me too
780 2014-02-24 10:16:46 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
781 2014-02-24 10:17:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BC.I is annoying with its pushtx reject messages
782 2014-02-24 10:17:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"Invalid Signature"
783 2014-02-24 10:17:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And as far as I can tell, it isn't
784 2014-02-24 10:19:02 <gmaxwell> it says that for a lot of non-standard stuff
785 2014-02-24 10:19:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah, I assumed as much
786 2014-02-24 10:19:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But I wish it were more descriptive
787 2014-02-24 10:19:28 <airbreather> michagogo|cloud, going to go with "weird, nonstandard, and valid"
788 2014-02-24 10:19:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Apparently it doesn't fit through Eligius's filter either
789 2014-02-24 10:19:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|.whois Luke-Jr
790 2014-02-24 10:19:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bah
791 2014-02-24 10:20:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And that's not the right command, either
792 2014-02-24 10:20:31 <airbreather> he said something just over an hour ago in #eligius
793 2014-02-24 10:21:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|airbreather: Yeah, I did reissue the correct command
794 2014-02-24 10:21:07 <airbreather> side note, any reason the "005151515102ae91" script isn't just "02ae91"?
795 2014-02-24 10:21:32 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, there's a pull request to make it more descriptive
796 2014-02-24 10:21:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|airbreather: it's checkmultisig
797 2014-02-24 10:21:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik: A PR on bc.i?
798 2014-02-24 10:21:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Didn't know they're OS
799 2014-02-24 10:21:50 <jgarzik> no, github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/
800 2014-02-24 10:21:58 pierreatwork has joined
801 2014-02-24 10:22:02 <jgarzik> the TX-rejected bit
802 2014-02-24 10:22:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh
803 2014-02-24 10:22:54 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3730
804 2014-02-24 10:23:46 JackH has joined
805 2014-02-24 10:24:53 <airbreather> Isn't the output from 38df010716e13254fb5fc16065c1cf62ee2aeaed2fad79973f8a76ba91da36da n:0 just in the format, "anyone that can find some data that hashes to 38430c4d1c214bf11d2c0c3dea8e5e9a5d11aab0 can spend me", same idea for d256c8358ea679a92fc9696389aac10f47eb956398056ebe1e51ea4aa4308924 n:0
806 2014-02-24 10:25:21 ericmuyser has joined
807 2014-02-24 10:27:01 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
808 2014-02-24 10:27:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|airbreather: It's p2sh
809 2014-02-24 10:27:27 [EddyF] has joined
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811 2014-02-24 10:27:52 [EddyF] is now known as Guest49612
812 2014-02-24 10:28:07 <airbreather> michagogo|cloud, haha. forgot about that special-case, thanks
813 2014-02-24 10:28:54 <airbreather> now I'm no longer sure if that transaction is valid or not...
814 2014-02-24 10:29:17 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
815 2014-02-24 10:29:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|airbreather: ac91 and ae91 are the scripts
816 2014-02-24 10:30:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|{"asm" : "OP_CHECKSIG OP_NOT","type" : "nonstandard","p2sh" : "3Db2yLjibuyS9r1JZ4p1mQXr3ZBMA1Zhf6"}
817 2014-02-24 10:30:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|{"asm" : "OP_CHECKMULTISIG OP_NOT","type" : "nonstandard","p2sh" : "36pW5sDLZx5dMEgXzY8bwMoQX9uCLXT3nD"}
818 2014-02-24 10:30:58 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
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824 2014-02-24 10:36:33 <airbreather> this one's making my brain hurt...
825 2014-02-24 10:36:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|airbreather: How so?
826 2014-02-24 10:37:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ac91 means, give me any invalid pubkey and signature pair
827 2014-02-24 10:38:08 _ImI_ has joined
828 2014-02-24 10:38:18 <airbreather> non-p2sh scripts are easy to run in my head at 5:30 AM, p2sh makes it a little more complicated
829 2014-02-24 10:39:08 dugo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
830 2014-02-24 10:39:28 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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833 2014-02-24 10:47:11 <Persopolis> do you ever get the feeling certain parts of bitcoin protocol are divergent from the norms without decent rationale, or perhaps that's just how it feels to a newb
834 2014-02-24 10:47:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Persopolis: like what?
835 2014-02-24 10:48:18 aielima has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
836 2014-02-24 10:48:29 <Persopolis> primary and most simple example being switches between little and big endian
837 2014-02-24 10:48:29 Zarutian has joined
838 2014-02-24 10:49:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(also, which norms?)
839 2014-02-24 10:49:16 djcoin_ has quit (Quit: djcoin_)
840 2014-02-24 10:49:17 aielima has joined
841 2014-02-24 10:49:33 <airbreather> Persopolis, I don't think you're the only one thinking that: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist#Navel_gazing_.2F_Protocol_housekeeping
842 2014-02-24 10:49:40 <airbreather> at least that specific case
843 2014-02-24 10:49:48 <Persopolis> mainstream computing - i.e. the architecture of most machines used by ordinary joes
844 2014-02-24 10:50:10 askmike has joined
845 2014-02-24 10:51:01 <Persopolis> here is one snippet on the script wiki: "Scripts are big-endian." followed by "The stacks hold byte vectors. Byte vectors are interpreted as little-endian..."
846 2014-02-24 10:51:04 <sipa> in theory, it is very simple: everything is little endian, but some things done by crypto libraries (which internally use big endian) whose in/out is considered as byte arrays by bitcoin
847 2014-02-24 10:51:08 benrcole2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
848 2014-02-24 10:51:19 <sipa> scripts are big endian? wtf?
849 2014-02-24 10:51:25 <sipa> scripts are not numbers
850 2014-02-24 10:51:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uh?
851 2014-02-24 10:51:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Scripts aren't big-endian
852 2014-02-24 10:51:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|They're parsed in order
853 2014-02-24 10:51:53 <wumpus> that's like saying English is big-endian
854 2014-02-24 10:52:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or like saying Hebrew is little-endian :-P
855 2014-02-24 10:52:12 <wumpus> hehe
856 2014-02-24 10:52:27 <Persopolis> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script - look at line top paragraph
857 2014-02-24 10:52:27 <sipa> dictionaries sort words big-endianny
858 2014-02-24 10:52:46 wallet42 has joined
859 2014-02-24 10:53:05 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|doesn't see that on the wiki page
860 2014-02-24 10:53:09 <stonecoldpat> i love how the sentence is there... but just out of context
861 2014-02-24 10:53:18 NewNick has joined
862 2014-02-24 10:53:20 <stonecoldpat> its three lines above 'contents'
863 2014-02-24 10:53:22 <wumpus> most dictionaries, although little-endian dictionaries are used in some cases (for example in poetry)
864 2014-02-24 10:53:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|stonecoldpat: no it's not
865 2014-02-24 10:53:48 ziggamon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
866 2014-02-24 10:53:48 <stonecoldpat> its not now ;)
867 2014-02-24 10:53:54 <airbreather> lol!
868 2014-02-24 10:53:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|:-P
869 2014-02-24 10:54:27 <sipa> good
870 2014-02-24 10:54:53 <wumpus> someone improved the wiki, give him a medal!
871 2014-02-24 10:54:58 <Persopolis> rofl - ok i better find a different example now
872 2014-02-24 10:55:01 mattco has quit ()
873 2014-02-24 10:55:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Persopolis: Also, it says at the top
874 2014-02-24 10:55:10 <sipa> Persopolis: in any case, almost all bitcoin stuff is little-endian, except inside cryptographic datastructures
875 2014-02-24 10:55:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"Forth-like, Script is simple, stack-based, and processed from left to right."
876 2014-02-24 10:56:02 <sipa> there is some odd overlap though, like block hashes which are sha256 output as byte arrays, but then afterwards interpreted as little endian to compare to the target
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879 2014-02-24 10:56:35 <wallet42> ETA for bitcoin-qt 0.9?
880 2014-02-24 10:56:43 <sipa> when it is ready
881 2014-02-24 10:56:45 <airbreather> yeah, "uint256" gave me a hard time yesterday
882 2014-02-24 10:56:46 <wallet42> :D
883 2014-02-24 10:57:08 <wallet42> okay i ask more like: not until $date
884 2014-02-24 10:57:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wallet42: Not in the next 2 minutes
885 2014-02-24 10:57:31 <wallet42> :P
886 2014-02-24 10:57:33 <wallet42> thx
887 2014-02-24 10:57:37 <sipa> not trying to claim here that bitcoin's dealing with endianness is perfectly sane... but there is some explanation for it
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889 2014-02-24 10:58:22 <sipa> wallet42: i think we'll have an rc2 soon
890 2014-02-24 10:58:26 <Persopolis> would I be right in saying SHA256 doesn't give a rats bottom what endian it's source for input is in - therefore the whole big-endian requirement just forces everyone to reverse byte orders for no purpose?
891 2014-02-24 10:58:27 Blackreign has quit (Ping timeout: 269 seconds)
892 2014-02-24 10:58:58 <sipa> Persopolis: sure, but from bitcoin's point of view there is no reversing
893 2014-02-24 10:59:18 <sipa> it gets a byte array from openssl, as interprets it as litle endian, like it does with everything
894 2014-02-24 11:00:05 <sipa> if you look at the big picture of course, knowing that sha256 creates those bytes by serializing big endian numbers, sure
895 2014-02-24 11:00:06 <Persopolis> but anyone generating anything has to change endians + anyone verifying
896 2014-02-24 11:00:12 <JackH> hey I am reading more and more that the developers here are leaving/not being paid for important work etc.
897 2014-02-24 11:00:21 <JackH> how would one go about paying a core developer
898 2014-02-24 11:00:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|JackH: Decide who you want to send money to
899 2014-02-24 11:00:37 <JackH> and would that core developer also help with custom coding in bitcoin projects then?
900 2014-02-24 11:00:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And ask them for an address
901 2014-02-24 11:00:47 <jgarzik> JackH, hire one or grow one. preferably, grow one.
902 2014-02-24 11:00:54 <JackH> well I was looking for a longer term relationship
903 2014-02-24 11:01:00 <sipa> Persopolis: yeah, unfortunate decisions... but not going to change
904 2014-02-24 11:01:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|JackH: So talk to someone and make a proposal
905 2014-02-24 11:01:20 <sipa> JackH: then offer them a contract
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909 2014-02-24 11:01:45 <JackH> The thing is that, we are a danish company, doing a scandinavian Bitcoin implementation, and we have one programmer. but....I could see our company paying for a guru's hours and also have him dedicate some of that time for core bitcoin stuff
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912 2014-02-24 11:02:01 <jgarzik> JackH, absolutely
913 2014-02-24 11:02:13 <sipa> sounds like the right attitude
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915 2014-02-24 11:02:26 <jgarzik> JackH, as I said, "grow one" -- ideal is teaching new people to be core developers
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917 2014-02-24 11:02:29 <JackH> cos it sucks, seeing the article on coindesk, on how little attention you guys get
918 2014-02-24 11:02:31 <jgarzik> share knowledge widely
919 2014-02-24 11:02:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(and jgarzik can say that... he's employed by BitPay)
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921 2014-02-24 11:03:07 <JackH> well I could see growing one, by first having one of the core dudes teaching "us/him"
922 2014-02-24 11:03:12 <jgarzik> we can mentor people who are motivated to learn, people who are willing to screwup, take feedback, revise their stuff and submit it again
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926 2014-02-24 11:03:18 <JackH> or something like that
927 2014-02-24 11:03:23 <bitnumus> Hi, what happened here? > EXCEPTION: St9bad_alloc
928 2014-02-24 11:03:38 <wumpus> bitnumus: you ran out of memory or virtual address space
929 2014-02-24 11:03:40 <emowataji> bitnumus: you ran out of memory
930 2014-02-24 11:03:44 <jgarzik> JackH, yes. Anyone can learn just by being motivated and asking questions here, when you get stuck
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933 2014-02-24 11:03:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik: BTW, I was pleasantly surprised the other day when I clicked on the bitcoin: link in a BitPay invoice and saw the green box
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936 2014-02-24 11:04:09 <bitnumus> wumpus, i've freed it up
937 2014-02-24 11:04:11 <bitnumus> how can i continue ?
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943 2014-02-24 11:04:22 <sipa> jgarzik: to be honest, i think we're not particularly an easy project to contribute to
944 2014-02-24 11:04:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(NameSilo.com)
945 2014-02-24 11:04:46 <jgarzik> sipa, agreed, but I have experience with such projects, and bringing people into them
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947 2014-02-24 11:04:56 <sipa> jgarzik: for example, issues reported don't say whether a fix for it would be acceptable
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949 2014-02-24 11:05:01 <sipa> or having roadmap
950 2014-02-24 11:05:21 Azelphur_ has joined
951 2014-02-24 11:05:22 <jgarzik> sipa, kernel has high stakes, high learning curve, high acceptance, and no roadmap
952 2014-02-24 11:05:25 pierreatwork has joined
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954 2014-02-24 11:05:31 <sipa> fair enough
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957 2014-02-24 11:05:51 <wumpus> issues that don't have any acceptable fix usually get closed
958 2014-02-24 11:05:58 <jgarzik> sipa, OTOH, kernel also has 1000x more developers, and thus more people working on dev tools, "kernel newbie" projects for new kernel hackers, and such
959 2014-02-24 11:06:08 <wumpus> which doesn't mean there aren't any very hard ones, of course
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964 2014-02-24 11:06:27 <sipa> yeah, we often see people asking here "what can i work on to contribute?"
965 2014-02-24 11:06:38 <sipa> and the most common answer is "tests!"
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970 2014-02-24 11:06:50 <wumpus> and then you spend almost an hour writing a reply, and you never hear from them again
971 2014-02-24 11:06:50 <sipa> while that is certainly one pf the most necessary things
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973 2014-02-24 11:06:58 <jgarzik> ...and then you have to have a fair amount of knowledge to write a good test, too
974 2014-02-24 11:07:02 <wumpus> most useful contributors in the project never asked, they just did
975 2014-02-24 11:07:05 <sipa> it is not what motivates people
976 2014-02-24 11:07:11 <wumpus> well they asked for details, but not what to do
977 2014-02-24 11:07:17 <sipa> wumpus: agree
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979 2014-02-24 11:07:32 <jgarzik> that's the standard for open source -- scratch your own itch, figure out your own shit
980 2014-02-24 11:07:37 <gmaxwell> it's not just that its needed, it's a good introductory task... I usually also include "what interest you" in my list.
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982 2014-02-24 11:08:00 <sipa> i disagree that it's a good introduction
983 2014-02-24 11:08:11 <jgarzik> nod
984 2014-02-24 11:08:18 <jgarzik> newbies really benefit from an assignment
985 2014-02-24 11:08:31 <sipa> or rather, the research you need to do to write a good test is a good introduction
986 2014-02-24 11:08:45 <sipa> but it is not what someone will end up doing if you tell them to write tests
987 2014-02-24 11:09:04 <gmaxwell> thats really what I meant by that. Also the task has finite boundaries and is generally unlikely to end up stuck in review nitpicking (except when the test if obviously bad)
988 2014-02-24 11:09:18 <gmaxwell> (I guess we had an example of that recently)
989 2014-02-24 11:09:33 ahmedbodi-ZzZz_ has joined
990 2014-02-24 11:10:01 <gmaxwell> I also suggest a non-development class of 'testing' e.g. not unit tests but actually testing, which may result in an itch you can scratch, but I don't think I've seen anyone really respond to that.
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992 2014-02-24 11:10:23 <sipa> jgarzik: btw, what was the reason for making the opreturn data push up to 80 bytes?
993 2014-02-24 11:10:42 <wumpus> it's not like tests get a lot of reviewing though; see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3712 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3559
994 2014-02-24 11:10:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: IIRC it was for a SHA512 hash plus a bit of metadata
995 2014-02-24 11:10:56 <sipa> it seems unnecessarily high to me, amd it is really being interpreted by many as "ooh, we're allowed store data in the chain now!"
996 2014-02-24 11:11:17 FK42 has joined
997 2014-02-24 11:11:31 <sipa> why sha512? nothing in the system has such large key strength
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999 2014-02-24 11:11:57 <wumpus> especially the latter is very old, it doesn't seem so dumb that it doesn't even warrant reviewing
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1001 2014-02-24 11:12:56 <wumpus> agreed sha512 makes little sense, why use something stronger than bitcoin itself
1002 2014-02-24 11:13:16 <sipa> is there any actual use case for >32 bytes?
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1009 2014-02-24 11:15:19 <Persopolis> i'm finding bitcoin dev a very steep learning curve - perhaps i'm getting too old :)
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1013 2014-02-24 11:15:20 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well I have some hope that now that building is easier, people will scratch there itches sooner
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1015 2014-02-24 11:15:44 <wumpus> their*
1016 2014-02-24 11:15:51 <sipa> wumpus: ack on that one... i generally accept any test code that succeeds and isn't doing something undefined or architecture-dependent
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1018 2014-02-24 11:16:28 <sipa> refactoring the code to make parts reusable in other projects would also help a lot
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1040 2014-02-24 11:18:35 <wumpus> that would be especially useful for the consensus part
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1053 2014-02-24 11:20:08 <stonecoldpat> at present no, but i guess its impossible to determine when sha256 will be become redundant
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1062 2014-02-24 11:20:39 <wumpus> couldn't it be replaced with a better stronger function with the same output size in that case?
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1064 2014-02-24 11:21:14 <sipa> it would be a hard fork + spv wallet update still
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1067 2014-02-24 11:21:35 <sipa> it would likely be uncontroversial if there is actual high risk of failure
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1072 2014-02-24 11:21:42 <wumpus> I mean for the stuff that would be stored in the OP_RETURN field
1073 2014-02-24 11:21:43 <sipa> but i doubt that will come suddenly
1074 2014-02-24 11:21:50 <sipa> oh
1075 2014-02-24 11:21:53 <sipa> ha
1076 2014-02-24 11:22:06 <wumpus> but yes even for bitcoin it would be possible with a hardfork
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1079 2014-02-24 11:23:18 <sipa> anyway, absent any actual use cases, i'd be in favor of reducing the limit to 32 bytes
1080 2014-02-24 11:23:27 <sipa> it can always be increased later
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1083 2014-02-24 11:24:33 <gmaxwell> and maybe change the data field name to <HASH> in all documentation? :P
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1085 2014-02-24 11:24:55 <wumpus> I'd be in favor of that, too, or 40 maybe
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1087 2014-02-24 11:27:04 <wumpus> and calling the field <HASH> (instead of <GRAFFITI>?) is a good idea
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1090 2014-02-24 11:28:35 <gmaxwell> GRAFFITI tehe
1091 2014-02-24 11:28:41 <Persopolis> so are people actually using it to store data?
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1096 2014-02-24 11:34:39 <sipa> wumpus: 32 bytes nicely conveys that it's for a hash; less so with 40 bytes
1097 2014-02-24 11:34:49 <sipa> but if there's a good use case, sure
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1099 2014-02-24 11:35:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: could still describe it as a "32 byte hash and 8 byte tag"
1100 2014-02-24 11:36:08 <gmaxwell> <tag 8 bytes><hash 32 bytes>
1101 2014-02-24 11:36:27 <sipa> gmaxwell: describe it as <hash> in all documentation... which documentation?
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1103 2014-02-24 11:36:42 <sipa> btw, no bip for that either afaik
1104 2014-02-24 11:38:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: release notes, comment in the source for the isstandard check.
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1112 2014-02-24 11:51:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does anyone happen to know of an https website running on a port other than 443 and/or a http site running on port 443?
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1114 2014-02-24 11:52:38 <wumpus> python -m SimpleHTTPServer 443 ? :p
1115 2014-02-24 11:54:26 <wumpus> (too bad it doesn't have a SimpleHTTPSServer)
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1154 2014-02-24 12:40:38 <gavinandresen> Good morning everybody
1155 2014-02-24 12:41:17 Coincidental has joined
1156 2014-02-24 12:41:23 <ikbenwouter> good morning
1157 2014-02-24 12:42:37 <sipa> good afternoon
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1162 2014-02-24 12:47:56 <wumpus> morning
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1164 2014-02-24 12:50:54 <gavinandresen> sipa: have you had a chance to review #3694 ? (remove vfSpent/vtxPrev) will you have a chance soon?
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1179 2014-02-24 13:06:05 <Persopolis> is there profiling build of bitcoind
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1327 2014-02-24 14:20:56 <_syslog> is it worth to code a opensource multicoin escrow service ?
1328 2014-02-24 14:21:18 <Diablo-D3> _syslog: it wouldnt be a bad thing
1329 2014-02-24 14:22:15 <_syslog> Diablo-D3: i coded a muticontrol interface but no one looks interested or ppl have trust isusue.
1330 2014-02-24 14:22:30 <Diablo-D3> well thats the problem with escrow
1331 2014-02-24 14:22:33 <Diablo-D3> you need to trust the guy doing it
1332 2014-02-24 14:22:35 <_syslog> so i need to know before start
1333 2014-02-24 14:22:53 <Diablo-D3> a better solution would be doing escrow inside of the block chain
1334 2014-02-24 14:23:01 <Diablo-D3> and bitcoin doesnt do that yet
1335 2014-02-24 14:23:15 <_syslog> hmmm
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1338 2014-02-24 14:24:19 <Persopolis> Diablo-D3 - could the script not be used for that in some way
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1340 2014-02-24 14:24:30 <Diablo-D3> Persopolis: thats how it'd be implemented
1341 2014-02-24 14:24:33 <Diablo-D3> theres no ui for it yet
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1344 2014-02-24 14:26:32 <Persopolis> i wondered about scripts requiring external input and how the clients would deal with them - think you answered my question - but i assume the scripts would make it across the network intact and if someone were to write a client with a UI, then that could be it
1345 2014-02-24 14:26:56 <Diablo-D3> yup
1346 2014-02-24 14:27:04 <Diablo-D3> you should talk with gmaxwell if you want to know more
1347 2014-02-24 14:27:47 <Persopolis> i'm just trying to pick up what i can at the mo :) - still a total noob at this
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1353 2014-02-24 14:31:33 <sipa> Persopolis: scripts cannot depend on external state
1354 2014-02-24 14:31:43 <sipa> the can only observe the transactions they are spent in
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1357 2014-02-24 14:34:05 <Persopolis> sipa - i must have misunderstood something, you know the transaction puzzle example on the wiki, how does that one work
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1359 2014-02-24 14:34:19 <sipa> ah, that's what you mean by 'external'
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1361 2014-02-24 14:34:51 <Persopolis> <- noob - so perhaps using inappropriate terminology
1362 2014-02-24 14:34:59 <sipa> the rule is simple: to spend an output, you msut provide inputs that make it evaluate to true
1363 2014-02-24 14:35:11 <sipa> *that make its output script evaluate to true
1364 2014-02-24 14:35:28 <sipa> with "external state" people usually refer to oracles, for example, checking whether someone is still alive
1365 2014-02-24 14:35:38 <sipa> not something encoded inside the transaction
1366 2014-02-24 14:35:58 <Persopolis> what I meant was something that wasn't sent as part of the original transaction
1367 2014-02-24 14:36:18 <sipa> the crediting transaction only provides the condition for spending it
1368 2014-02-24 14:36:31 <sipa> the spending transactions provides inputs to make that condition evaluate to true
1369 2014-02-24 14:36:49 <sipa> there is no difference between regular send-to-pubkey-hash transactions, or those puzzles you refer to
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1371 2014-02-24 14:37:45 <Persopolis> :( not what i foolishly assumed
1372 2014-02-24 14:38:58 <Persopolis> i thought it provided a mechanism whereby the recipient could push the hash value into the stack and make the transaction condition true
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1377 2014-02-24 14:44:09 <Persopolis> which i suppose is kinda what happens - except it's the spending transaction whereas I was thinking it was the crediting
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1381 2014-02-24 14:50:08 <Persopolis> is there any way timestamps can be used as an enforcement rule in a script
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1383 2014-02-24 14:52:09 <Persopolis> e.g. a credit transaction that can only be spent for 2 days - if not spent beyond that, credit different recipient
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1397 2014-02-24 15:12:17 <jcorgan> you can ask a recipient to sign a transaction spending the money back to you, with a timelock of two days, then give you the tx (don't broadcast it)
1398 2014-02-24 15:12:44 <jcorgan> if they don't spend it, you can broadcast the tx to get the funds back
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1400 2014-02-24 15:12:58 <jcorgan> if they do spend it, your tx would become a double spend and never get confirmed
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1405 2014-02-24 15:13:31 <jcorgan> not sure if i said that entirely right
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1407 2014-02-24 15:13:54 <Persopolis> i followed enough to figure it's rather cumbersome :P
1408 2014-02-24 15:14:16 <jcorgan> nothing that couldn't be automated and hidden in a UI
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1410 2014-02-24 15:15:26 <Persopolis> true - one question - that original spending transaction, how would you send it without broadcast? outside of the p2p?
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1412 2014-02-24 15:15:55 <jcorgan> the timelocked "refund" transaction? yes, it would have to be out-of-band
1413 2014-02-24 15:16:19 <Persopolis> thanks jcorgan :)
1414 2014-02-24 15:16:35 <_syslog> Persopolis: create raw transaction save into database if user spend broadcast if not delete from database.
1415 2014-02-24 15:17:01 <_syslog> *external database
1416 2014-02-24 15:17:04 <_syslog> *external ui
1417 2014-02-24 15:18:08 <Persopolis> yep - i was trying to workout if a small extension to the script could allow end to end to be within network
1418 2014-02-24 15:20:09 <Persopolis> but I think there may be far better ways of doing an extension to enable "safe" escrow - getting to the mindset that it's probably better dealt on top of btc protocol rather than inside it
1419 2014-02-24 15:20:22 <helo> you could just schedule it to be sent via sendrawtransaction in 2 days and not worry about other details
1420 2014-02-24 15:20:36 <helo> if its inputs had already been spent, the sendraw would do nothing
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1422 2014-02-24 15:21:21 <helo> Persopolis: bitcoin already supports escrow to the extent that it is able afaict
1423 2014-02-24 15:22:17 <helo> it can give control to two-of-three parties (M-of-N) which must agree where funds should go
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1429 2014-02-24 15:24:15 <Persopolis> helo could you elaborate how that is achieved plz
1430 2014-02-24 15:26:09 <dexX7> can someone tell me, what i'm doing wrong here? trying to build op_return transactions and for some reason, depending on the actual payload, it sometimes is accepted and sometimes not, but i guess there is a fundamental mistake somewhere :).. http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=MyNJYm49
1431 2014-02-24 15:26:16 <helo> Persopolis: join me in #bitcoin
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1434 2014-02-24 15:27:51 * Luke-Jr smacks dexX7
1435 2014-02-24 15:28:03 <dexX7> please teach me
1436 2014-02-24 15:28:03 <dexX7> hehe
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1438 2014-02-24 15:28:24 <Luke-Jr> dexX7: yes, there is a fundamental mistake
1439 2014-02-24 15:28:35 <Luke-Jr> dexX7: you're NOT SUPPOSED TO BUILD OP_RETURN TRANSACTIONS
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1442 2014-02-24 15:29:14 <dexX7> it's just for education and science, nothing spam-ish :p
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1445 2014-02-24 15:30:56 <Luke-Jr> dexX7: it didn't sound like you were talking about testnet
1446 2014-02-24 15:31:53 <dexX7> meh, you as miner should be happy about that
1447 2014-02-24 15:33:20 <helo> dexX7: perhaps they don't accept it because they want it to DIAF?
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1449 2014-02-24 15:35:18 <Apocalyptic> helo, we don't like it cause it messes up the UTXO if i'm correct
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1454 2014-02-24 15:37:35 <dexX7> it was promoted as "op_return tx are now a type standard tx" ;)
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1457 2014-02-24 15:38:05 <helo> DIAF is appropriate for such things
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1462 2014-02-24 15:39:55 <helo> yeah... it's better than alternatives, but we'd still be happy if it was just not used (in addition to the poor alternatives)
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1465 2014-02-24 15:41:09 <helo> i have trouble thinking of a problem where op_return data would really be the best solution
1466 2014-02-24 15:41:09 <dexX7> would you tell me what's wrong with the tx anyway? please :)
1467 2014-02-24 15:41:36 <Luke-Jr> dexX7: glare at whoever promoted it
1468 2014-02-24 15:41:57 <helo> there are so many alternatives that are actually designed to store data
1469 2014-02-24 15:42:24 <helo> it seems akin to deciding to implement video chat over twitter
1470 2014-02-24 15:42:36 <dexX7> like encoding data in multisig addresses?
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1472 2014-02-24 15:43:20 <helo> like not-encoding-data-in-the-blockchain
1473 2014-02-24 15:43:27 <dexX7> boom! got it.. it's [push 1 byte] [op_return] [payload]
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1476 2014-02-24 15:48:18 <Apocalyptic> out of curiosity is there any reason why the selected generator in secp256k1 is the one chosen ?
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1478 2014-02-24 15:48:43 <shesek> anyone knows what's the keys limitation when using multisig with p2sh outputs?
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1481 2014-02-24 15:49:40 <shesek> the maximum 3 limitation isn't applied with p2sh, its limited by the length of the script... but I'm not sure how many keys its exactly
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1489 2014-02-24 15:53:00 <jgarzik> what is the name of that project that stored images in the blockchain recently? the one that gmaxwell thankfully talked down from this lunacy?
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1504 2014-02-24 16:04:09 <swulf--> man, I would love a script opcode that would do CHECKSIG against an arbitrary hash of data
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1506 2014-02-24 16:04:45 <quellhorst> is the gribble source anywhere?
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1522 2014-02-24 16:14:45 <Apocalyptic> since what version is addrindex available ?
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1524 2014-02-24 16:16:15 <shesek> Apocalyptic, afaik, none
1525 2014-02-24 16:16:17 <shesek> it was never merged
1526 2014-02-24 16:16:25 <shesek> you can use sipa's branch though (see pull request 2802), it works quite well for me
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1529 2014-02-24 16:17:27 <Apocalyptic> thanks shesek
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1537 2014-02-24 16:21:05 <jcorgan> actually, 2802 was forward ported to 3652
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1539 2014-02-24 16:22:16 <jcorgan> so it works against 0.9.x. I just tested yesterday it still cleanly merges into current master.
1540 2014-02-24 16:22:47 <jcorgan> i think sipa was hoping it would die, but I necro'd it :)
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1545 2014-02-24 16:24:09 <jcorgan> if you find it useful, please comment on the new pull reqeust
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1551 2014-02-24 16:25:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: I think it was in the area of 15-20
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1553 2014-02-24 16:25:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Don't quote me on that, though
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1565 2014-02-24 16:35:18 <stonecoldpat> jgarzik: gmail 1, you 0 ;)
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1677 2014-02-24 17:40:38 <alex_fun> hey folks
1678 2014-02-24 17:40:45 <alex_fun> I followed this tutorial http://gavintech.blogspot.com/2011/11/deploying-bitcoin-qt-on-osx.html
1679 2014-02-24 17:41:08 <alex_fun> when I run sudo port install $(cat /tmp/portsinstalled) it gives error illegal variable
1680 2014-02-24 17:41:12 <alex_fun> any idea what can it be?
1681 2014-02-24 17:42:00 <_syslog> alex_fun: gie this command and out output here
1682 2014-02-24 17:42:00 <_syslog> #ls -lh /tmp |grep portsinstalled
1683 2014-02-24 17:42:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|alex_fun: Might be the fact that it's from 2011
1684 2014-02-24 17:42:23 <_syslog> i bet there is no file in tmp.
1685 2014-02-24 17:42:35 <_syslog> i bet 0.5 vtc
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1687 2014-02-24 17:43:36 <alex_fun> but ls -lh returns nothing
1688 2014-02-24 17:43:38 <alex_fun> when I run nano I see file in tmp
1689 2014-02-24 17:44:18 <alex_fun> well I can see it in finder
1690 2014-02-24 17:44:18 <alex_fun> too
1691 2014-02-24 17:44:28 <alex_fun> http://pastebin.com/BmV1YAr6
1692 2014-02-24 17:44:53 mappum is now known as 5EXAANQ7F
1693 2014-02-24 17:44:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, looks like that's not a how-to for building Bitcoin-Qt on OS X
1694 2014-02-24 17:45:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What are you trying to do exactly?
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1735 2014-02-24 17:46:06 <_syslog> -wtf
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1739 2014-02-24 17:46:14 <alex_fun> michagogo|cloud: build wallet on osx
1740 2014-02-24 17:46:15 <alex_fun> I built it with default libs it crashes on 10,9
1741 2014-02-24 17:46:54 <alex_fun> then i came across this articles to recompile libs with 10.5 sdk
1742 2014-02-24 17:46:54 <alex_fun> :D
1743 2014-02-24 17:47:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|alex_fun: Did you read https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-osx.md ?
1744 2014-02-24 17:47:05 <alex_fun> what happen to syslog? :D
1745 2014-02-24 17:47:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|He left
1746 2014-02-24 17:48:00 <alex_fun> yes
1747 2014-02-24 17:48:00 <alex_fun> Creating a release build
1748 2014-02-24 17:48:12 <alex_fun> or MacPorts, that means editing your macports.conf and setting macosx_deployment_target and build_arch: macosx_deployment_target=10.5 build_arch=i386 ... and then uninstalling and re-installing, or simply rebuilding, all ports.
1749 2014-02-24 17:48:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(hmm, that file is not fully up to date, it still talks about Makefile.osx)
1750 2014-02-24 17:48:30 <alex_fun> then I went to da blog to see how to rebuild all ports
1751 2014-02-24 17:48:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|alex_fun: That's a compatibility thing for older OSes, I think
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1755 2014-02-24 17:48:51 <alex_fun> nope it works if done like Gavin said
1756 2014-02-24 17:48:51 <alex_fun> :)
1757 2014-02-24 17:49:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|In other words, if you want to be able to build binaries on 10.8 that will work for 10.5
1758 2014-02-24 17:49:05 <alex_fun> with 10.5 target
1759 2014-02-24 17:49:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But I don't use Macs, so I could be wrong
1760 2014-02-24 17:49:26 <alex_fun> yes I use 10.8 and idea for it to work on 10.5 and higher
1761 2014-02-24 17:49:26 <alex_fun> :D
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1763 2014-02-24 17:49:45 <alex_fun> but last part where mac ports use cat to check file and install all named ports fails
1764 2014-02-24 17:50:01 <alex_fun> its pretty simple command i dont know whats wrong
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1771 2014-02-24 17:51:52 <alex_fun> lianji when I am rebuilding mac port libs to compile osx wallet I get sudo port install $(cat /tmp/portsinstalled ) Illegal variable name.
1772 2014-02-24 17:52:04 <alex_fun> do u know some way to fix it or what can it be?
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1778 2014-02-24 17:52:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|alex_fun: try replacing the newlines with linebreaks
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1782 2014-02-24 17:53:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|erm
1783 2014-02-24 17:53:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|with spaces*
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1789 2014-02-24 17:54:03 <alex_fun> michagogo|cloud: any easy way to do it in nano?
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1791 2014-02-24 17:54:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|alex_fun: it's not that many linebreaks
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1793 2014-02-24 17:54:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just do it manually
1794 2014-02-24 17:54:38 <alex_fun> ok how to do it manually?
1795 2014-02-24 17:54:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|uhh
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1797 2014-02-24 17:54:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just replace the newlines with spaces...
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1802 2014-02-24 17:55:21 <alex_fun> In the edit box, if a line of text is so short that the first word of the next line would fit on it, this indicates that there is an invisible newline code at the end.
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1805 2014-02-24 17:55:48 <alex_fun> if its invisible how I suppose to replace it? u mean put all libs on 1 line?
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1807 2014-02-24 17:55:53 <alex_fun> separate by spaces?
1808 2014-02-24 17:55:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...yes, that is what I mean
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1810 2014-02-24 17:56:19 <alex_fun> ty
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1814 2014-02-24 18:00:33 <alex_fun> michagogo|cloud: same
1815 2014-02-24 18:00:34 <alex_fun> illegal variable name
1816 2014-02-24 18:00:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just put the port names on the command line, don't bother with the file
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1821 2014-02-24 18:02:53 <alex_fun> ty michagogo|cloud mr common sense
1822 2014-02-24 18:02:53 <alex_fun> :D
1823 2014-02-24 18:02:53 <alex_fun> I salute u :)
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1844 2014-02-24 18:09:05 <tlrobinson> gmaxwell: what's the immortal transaction problem referenced here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3721#issuecomment-35748839
1845 2014-02-24 18:12:06 <Joric> what a dull name how about an undead or a zombie transaction
1846 2014-02-24 18:12:08 <andytoshi> tlrobinson: txes which won't ever confirm (say, dust outputs or insufficient fee), but stay in mempools and block replacement txes
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1917 2014-02-24 19:05:16 <dexX7> Luke-Jr: i like the how eligius confirmed the tx https://blockchain.info/tx/e89809cc9ad2f6dee66375ae98bc9f1b5331a20aca85cee82239a1a39fe79dae?show_adv=true ;)
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1925 2014-02-24 19:07:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|dexX7: heh, I guess he didn't get around to making it not take those
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1931 2014-02-24 19:10:20 <bitblender> What would the new fee be? 0.00001
1932 2014-02-24 19:10:56 c0rw1n has joined
1933 2014-02-24 19:11:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bitblender: excuse me?
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1935 2014-02-24 19:11:26 <bitblender> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3305 this is ACK'ed
1936 2014-02-24 19:11:37 <bitblender> i just wonder what 10x smaller fee would be
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1943 2014-02-24 19:14:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bitblender: hmm, didn't know that had happened
1944 2014-02-24 19:14:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Looks like 0.00001, but that's just for relaying
1945 2014-02-24 19:15:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Not creation
1946 2014-02-24 19:15:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(And it's just a default)
1947 2014-02-24 19:15:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If I'm not misreading, that is
1948 2014-02-24 19:15:30 <bitblender> yeah
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1953 2014-02-24 19:17:38 <jgarzik> hum
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1955 2014-02-24 19:17:57 <jgarzik> it is more than a little disappointing that Bitcoin Wallet rolled out mBTC support, with near-zero community coordination
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1957 2014-02-24 19:19:55 <bitblender> Bitcoin Wallet?
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1960 2014-02-24 19:21:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik: re: channel flags: oh, so who does do that?
1961 2014-02-24 19:21:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bitblender: Android, I think
1962 2014-02-24 19:21:34 <jgarzik> bitblender, Android. bitcoinj-based.
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1969 2014-02-24 19:26:51 <jgarzik> ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: scriptsig-non-canonical-push
1970 2014-02-24 19:26:54 <jgarzik> oh yeah
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1972 2014-02-24 19:28:33 <lechuga_> are people still trying to use PUSHDATA2
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1986 2014-02-24 19:34:59 <Genitrust> for best practices, would it be better to store btc values (in python) as an integer or python's decimal type?
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1990 2014-02-24 19:35:53 <Genitrust> i was considering integer format (and when necessary, using btc/100000000. for arithmetic)
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1992 2014-02-24 19:36:26 <Genitrust> but now i'm looking at python's "decimal" from the decimal module... and this looks... like exactly what i'm looking for
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1998 2014-02-24 19:39:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Genitrust: if there's a decimal type, you can use that
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2032 2014-02-24 20:10:56 <Genitrust> michagogo|cloud, ty :)
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2045 2014-02-24 20:20:14 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: ping
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2048 2014-02-24 20:21:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: ping
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2051 2014-02-24 20:22:48 <Luke-Jr> ,
2052 2014-02-24 20:23:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: mind giving Eligius a transaction to mine?
2053 2014-02-24 20:23:22 <Luke-Jr> http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php
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2055 2014-02-24 20:23:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: it doesn't like it
2056 2014-02-24 20:23:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Already tried)
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2060 2014-02-24 20:25:34 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: would it be evil to change the output? :P
2061 2014-02-24 20:25:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: maybe :-P
2062 2014-02-24 20:27:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Obviously it'd be nice if you didn't, but meh)
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2065 2014-02-24 20:29:14 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: do you know C?
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2067 2014-02-24 20:29:51 <Luke-Jr> like a review of http://codepad.org/4chShR79
2068 2014-02-24 20:29:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't, no
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2070 2014-02-24 20:30:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Sorry
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2105 2014-02-24 20:57:40 <tonokip> is there a doc for cross compiling under the new build system?
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2110 2014-02-24 21:05:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tonokip: I'm not sure, but I managed to cross-compile from Linux to Windows by pulling the script from the gitian descriptor
2111 2014-02-24 21:06:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(and making a couple dirname tweaks, etc)
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2118 2014-02-24 21:10:17 <tonokip> michagogo|cloud, ty
2119 2014-02-24 21:10:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: Awesome, thanks
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2122 2014-02-24 21:12:50 <tonokip> michagogo|cloud, so u just ran the script or went through it line by line?
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2126 2014-02-24 21:16:05 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: np
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2128 2014-02-24 21:17:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tonokip: I copied the script into its own file
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2130 2014-02-24 21:18:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Then I added on the lines in gbuild that get added to the start of every script
2131 2014-02-24 21:18:33 <Luke-Jr> lolwut, I really never optimised libblkmaker
2132 2014-02-24 21:18:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And then, I went through line by line in the editor to make sure that everything made sense
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2134 2014-02-24 21:18:44 <Luke-Jr> it hashes every transaction, every time it makes work! :P
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2137 2014-02-24 21:24:34 <tonokip> michagogo|cloud, do you have your copy uploaded anywhere for download? :)
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2139 2014-02-24 21:24:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tonokip: I can check if I have it somewhere
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2143 2014-02-24 21:25:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, there are all the deps
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2145 2014-02-24 21:27:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tonokip: Looks like what I have is a bit hacked up, I was experimenting and stuff
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2147 2014-02-24 21:28:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tonokip: I mean, one way you could get cross-compiled builds to work is if you just gbuild them
2148 2014-02-24 21:29:21 <jmordica> Is there any software capable of splitting hashing power into different pools? So the use case is, me and a buddy of mine have 2 miners that we want to split into multiple pools and share the profit.
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2150 2014-02-24 21:30:03 <tonokip> michagogo|cloud, yea i guess i need to go that route
2151 2014-02-24 21:30:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tonokip: And as a bonus, if you set up gitian builds, you can help with releases
2152 2014-02-24 21:31:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Are you on 64-bit Ubuntu running directly on the machine, with hardware virtualization support?
2153 2014-02-24 21:31:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(that's the easiest setup)
2154 2014-02-24 21:31:56 <tonokip> on windows, main linux box is the rig
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2156 2014-02-24 21:32:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I mean, what are you building on
2157 2014-02-24 21:32:32 <tonokip> well the only way to build bitcoin now is on linux
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2159 2014-02-24 21:32:54 <tonokip> so yea 64bit lubuntu rig
2160 2014-02-24 21:32:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...I mean, what are the details of the machine you'll be building on?
2161 2014-02-24 21:33:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is it running 64-bit Ubuntu, running directly on the machine, with hardware virtualization support?
2162 2014-02-24 21:33:16 <tonokip> cheap celeron 64bit lubuntu
2163 2014-02-24 21:33:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Celeron? Hmm
2164 2014-02-24 21:34:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Which model, do you know?
2165 2014-02-24 21:34:39 <tonokip> Celeron_G1620_27GHz_LGA_1155
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2168 2014-02-24 21:35:45 <tonokip> im looking to see how to check
2169 2014-02-24 21:35:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tonokip: Okay, great
2170 2014-02-24 21:36:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|http://ark.intel.com/products/virtualizationtechnology says you have VT-x
2171 2014-02-24 21:36:28 djcoin_ has joined
2172 2014-02-24 21:36:36 <tonokip> ya proc info seems to agree (vmx)
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2178 2014-02-24 21:38:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tonokip: So you can run in a KVM VM, which is the easiest way to do it
2179 2014-02-24 21:38:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Clone https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder, follow the readme
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2181 2014-02-24 21:39:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|One thing to note: at the make-base-vm stage, add "--suite precise"
2182 2014-02-24 21:39:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(since Bitcoin is built in precise VMs)
2183 2014-02-24 21:39:45 Application has joined
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2185 2014-02-24 21:40:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And in the sanity-testing section as well, substitute precise for lucid
2186 2014-02-24 21:40:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Then follow https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/release-process.md
2187 2014-02-24 21:41:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(you can skip the Linux build steps, as well as the actual release stuff. Just look at the sections labelled "Fetch and build inputs" and "Build bitcoind and bitcoin-qt on Linux32, Linux64, and Win32"
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2194 2014-02-24 21:42:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, and also export VERSION=<whatever you want to build>
2195 2014-02-24 21:42:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or, just replace ${VERSION} in the gbuild command with that
2196 2014-02-24 21:42:55 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2197 2014-02-24 21:43:35 Bisbee has joined
2198 2014-02-24 21:43:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(oh, and if you're building something that's not recent master, git checkout that point, so you have the right descriptors, and check if anything's different in release-process.md)
2199 2014-02-24 21:44:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's almost midnight here, so I need to go to bed, but if you have any trouble, you can ask questions and/or get help here or perhaps in #bitcoin-build
2200 2014-02-24 21:45:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Either someone else will help out, or I will when I see your messages
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2208 2014-02-24 21:48:22 <tonokip> k ty
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2213 2014-02-24 21:51:56 <jmordica> Is there any software capable of splitting hashing power into different pools? So the use case is, me and a buddy of mine have 2 miners that we want to split into multiple pools and share the profit.
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2227 2014-02-24 22:02:52 <phillipsjk> jmordica, if you have two miners, why is splitting needed?, also, #bitcoin-mining.
2228 2014-02-24 22:03:13 digit_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2229 2014-02-24 22:03:28 <jmordica> I'm looking for a proxy or some type of software I can point the miners to and control it at that level
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2233 2014-02-24 22:05:16 <jmordica> like divide the TOTAL hashing power between multiple pools
2234 2014-02-24 22:05:19 <jmordica> does that make sense?
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2236 2014-02-24 22:06:11 <sipa> why?
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2266 2014-02-24 22:30:49 <Luke-Jr> jmordica: BFGMiner supports it
2267 2014-02-24 22:33:41 <jmordica> so you can run bfgminer on a server and proxy your miners through it?
2268 2014-02-24 22:34:18 <Luke-Jr> sure, or just run your miners on it
2269 2014-02-24 22:34:25 mattolson has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2270 2014-02-24 22:34:41 <jmordica> and it can divide the total hashing power?
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2273 2014-02-24 22:36:23 <jmordica> so if I have 3 miners and point them all to the one bfgminer box, I can divide the total power among multiple pools?
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2275 2014-02-24 22:36:38 <jmordica> not having to divide one specific miner?
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2277 2014-02-24 22:36:59 <Luke-Jr> jmordica: yes, though you may lose some efficiency
2278 2014-02-24 22:37:02 <jmordica> I also saw bithopper. is this similar?
2279 2014-02-24 22:37:06 <jmordica> I got ya
2280 2014-02-24 22:37:09 <jmordica> very cool
2281 2014-02-24 22:37:20 Persopolis has joined
2282 2014-02-24 22:37:21 <Luke-Jr> seriously though, phillipsjk was right about pointing you at #bitcoin-mining
2283 2014-02-24 22:37:24 <Luke-Jr> it's off-topic here
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2285 2014-02-24 22:37:41 _ImI_ has joined
2286 2014-02-24 22:38:10 <jmordica> ok thanks
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2290 2014-02-24 22:42:07 <Luke-Jr> huh, so OP_RETURN OP_RIPEMD160 is considered standard by master
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2293 2014-02-24 22:44:02 <sipa> orly?
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2299 2014-02-24 22:49:08 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it only checks the data size is not >80, it doesn't check the opcode
2300 2014-02-24 22:50:07 <sipa> i see
2301 2014-02-24 22:51:03 <gmaxwell> should probably just check that its a push1 now.
2302 2014-02-24 22:52:03 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: then it's impossible to do 0-16 as the data
2303 2014-02-24 22:52:19 <sipa> we have a IsCanonicalPush now, no? :)
2304 2014-02-24 22:52:29 <Luke-Jr> sipa: that's why :P
2305 2014-02-24 22:53:09 <sipa> well, it's in an output; i don't really care that they're usng push1 or direct push
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2307 2014-02-24 22:54:17 <Luke-Jr> right, but if OP_SMALLDATA checks for OP_PUSHDATA1, then people are *forced* to use the non-canonical form to pass
2308 2014-02-24 22:54:51 <Luke-Jr> which may be an obstacle if we someday want to make it a protocol rule
2309 2014-02-24 22:55:05 <gmaxwell> I don't know that we'd ever protocol rule anything in the scriptpubkey.
2310 2014-02-24 22:55:16 <gmaxwell> (of a output)
2311 2014-02-24 22:55:45 <Luke-Jr> something like IsCanonicalPush IMO makes better sense as a protocol rule only if it applies to all Scripts
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2313 2014-02-24 22:56:05 <Luke-Jr> inconsistencies screw up alt implementors
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2315 2014-02-24 22:56:52 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, IsCanonicalPush could be added as a relay rule fairly easily
2316 2014-02-24 22:58:02 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, check that the opcode is not OP_PUSHDATA*, like Jeremy described on the list
2317 2014-02-24 22:58:17 <jgarzik> or technically, < OP_PUSHDATA
2318 2014-02-24 22:58:47 <sipa> yeah, just making sure that it is *some* data push is fine by me
2319 2014-02-24 22:59:00 <sipa> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1yt5fo/bitcoin_transaction_fee_to_reduce_by_10x/cfns03v
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2328 2014-02-24 23:03:42 <jgarzik> WHEW
2329 2014-02-24 23:03:57 <jgarzik> This is regular old wallet.dat corruption, that I cannot blame on bitcoind
2330 2014-02-24 23:04:04 Zifre has joined
2331 2014-02-24 23:04:15 * jgarzik was fearing that it was bitcoind's fault, downgrading from 0.9-HEAD to 0.8.6
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2333 2014-02-24 23:04:37 <jgarzik> going from HEAD to 0.8.6 still causes 0.8.6 to poop itself, claiming chainstate db corruption
2334 2014-02-24 23:04:51 <jgarzik> but that's different. woo hoo... my wallet is the corrupted, and it's a local issue ;p
2335 2014-02-24 23:04:57 Nesetalis has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2336 2014-02-24 23:04:57 <jgarzik> (I have backups)
2337 2014-02-24 23:06:38 <sipa> jgarzik: yeah, we need a release notes thing to warn that upgrading will make your chain database incompatible
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2340 2014-02-24 23:07:06 <jaakkos> wallet.dat corrupted randomly on your disk?
2341 2014-02-24 23:07:39 <sipa> money corrupts
2342 2014-02-24 23:07:44 <sipa> it's a universal law
2343 2014-02-24 23:07:52 go11111111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2344 2014-02-24 23:08:24 <phantomcircuit> sipa, >.>
2345 2014-02-24 23:08:46 <sipa> dang
2346 2014-02-24 23:08:52 <jaakkos> heh. perhaps you should be running a checksumming filesystem, though.
2347 2014-02-24 23:08:57 <sipa> no need to look for another explanation for these leveldb corruptions anymore
2348 2014-02-24 23:09:19 <jgarzik> jaakkos, it is a mystery, as I run always an encrypting, checksumming filesystem setup
2349 2014-02-24 23:09:30 <gmaxwell> would make a nice coinion article. "Developers ask bitcoin users to stop calling it money!"
2350 2014-02-24 23:09:31 go11111111111 has joined
2351 2014-02-24 23:09:32 <jaakkos> ECC memory?
2352 2014-02-24 23:09:55 <sipa> yeah, my memory has a native secp256k1 implementation too
2353 2014-02-24 23:11:16 Free_ has joined
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2355 2014-02-24 23:15:12 <upb> LOL
2356 2014-02-24 23:16:38 <phantomcircuit> sipa, lol
2357 2014-02-24 23:16:50 _ImI_ has quit (Quit: _ImI_)
2358 2014-02-24 23:17:24 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, sure you're not using an incompatible bdb
2359 2014-02-24 23:17:56 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, pretty sure. it's on the list of things to check.
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2368 2014-02-24 23:22:52 <Persopolis> what's the footprint of bitcoind like in terms of mem & cpu demands
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2370 2014-02-24 23:23:27 <sipa> memory: like 800 MB these days?
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2372 2014-02-24 23:23:36 <sipa> cpu: during sync, whatever it can get
2373 2014-02-24 23:23:41 <sipa> afterwards pretty limited
2374 2014-02-24 23:24:13 <Persopolis> that's good - lower than i thought it would be
2375 2014-02-24 23:24:38 <jrick> those 800MB include the utxo set?
2376 2014-02-24 23:25:10 <gmaxwell> No.
2377 2014-02-24 23:25:22 <gmaxwell> it's not forced to be in ram.
2378 2014-02-24 23:26:10 benrcole1 has joined
2379 2014-02-24 23:26:14 <jrick> right - just wondered if it did for performance
2380 2014-02-24 23:26:42 <sipa> setting a higher -dbcache raises that number (mostly during initial sync), and it does improve performance very significantly
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2383 2014-02-24 23:28:54 <Persopolis> what's the main bottleneck
2384 2014-02-24 23:30:41 <sipa> when syncing from network: the silly block fetching algorithm that getd confused and only fetches from a single peer
2385 2014-02-24 23:30:45 <tonokip> so for the mutability issue, is this all we need to prevent it, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/1bbca249b202c4802cc2c4d4de4a26e6392b4d92
2386 2014-02-24 23:31:38 <tonokip> "Add option to avoid spending unconfirmed change"
2387 2014-02-24 23:32:17 _ImI_ has joined
2388 2014-02-24 23:32:20 <gmaxwell> tonokip: thats all you need to prevent your own txn getting stuck due to it, yes.
2389 2014-02-24 23:32:54 lnovy is now known as krtek_net
2390 2014-02-24 23:33:32 <tonokip> and run with -spendzeroconfchange 0
2391 2014-02-24 23:33:34 <Persopolis> sipa i thought someone was already working on block fetching
2392 2014-02-24 23:33:48 <sipa> Persopolis: yes, me, very slowly :)
2393 2014-02-24 23:34:07 <Persopolis> :)
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2398 2014-02-24 23:37:31 <todamoon> hi
2399 2014-02-24 23:38:06 <todamoon> if I understand correctly, in the even of a chain fork, the longest chain wins right?
2400 2014-02-24 23:38:56 <todamoon> is "longest" measured in terms of blocks or in terms of size?
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2403 2014-02-24 23:41:00 <andytoshi> todamoon: neither, in terms of total POW
2404 2014-02-24 23:41:43 <todamoon> how is total POW calculated? I thought the client just counted how many blocks were mined
2405 2014-02-24 23:41:56 <todamoon> for each chain
2406 2014-02-24 23:42:03 <melvster> when you do a getrawtransaction as verbose, you get a parament "n" in the "vout"s ... what actually is that n, it does appear in block explorer API at all ...
2407 2014-02-24 23:42:22 <melvster> s/parament/parameter
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2410 2014-02-24 23:42:55 <melvster> e.g. https://people.xiph.org/~greg/signdemo.txt
2411 2014-02-24 23:43:06 <melvster> "vout" : [
2412 2014-02-24 23:43:06 <melvster> {
2413 2014-02-24 23:43:06 <melvster> "value" : 50.00000000,
2414 2014-02-24 23:43:06 <melvster> "n" : 0,
2415 2014-02-24 23:43:19 mattolson has joined
2416 2014-02-24 23:43:31 <todamoon> probably because JSON arrays are not ordered
2417 2014-02-24 23:43:53 <todamoon> the n is probably there to tell you the order of "vout"s
2418 2014-02-24 23:44:07 <sipa> mattolson: the number of the output
2419 2014-02-24 23:44:13 <sipa> eh, melvster
2420 2014-02-24 23:44:20 benrcole has joined
2421 2014-02-24 23:44:22 <sipa> todamoon: they are ordered
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2423 2014-02-24 23:44:44 <todamoon> right, I confused with objects
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2425 2014-02-24 23:45:07 <melvster> lol, thanks ... seems really obvious now!
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