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477 2014-02-28 02:00:35 <Wild0wnes> question
478 2014-02-28 02:00:50 <Wild0wnes> does bitcoin protocol use a specific port?
479 2014-02-28 02:02:34 <lechuga_> yes
480 2014-02-28 02:03:14 <lechuga_> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5757/what-is-the-difference-between-the-rpc-port-8332-and-port-8333
481 2014-02-28 02:03:49 melvster_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
482 2014-02-28 02:04:47 <Wild0wnes> so it defaults to 8332 but it wouldn't cripple me if my ISP decided to block that port for a day?
483 2014-02-28 02:04:57 CheckDavid has joined
484 2014-02-28 02:05:47 askmike has joined
485 2014-02-28 02:06:42 <Luke-Jr> 8333
486 2014-02-28 02:06:59 <Luke-Jr> it would cripple you until you figured out to change your port
487 2014-02-28 02:07:06 wei__ has joined
488 2014-02-28 02:07:38 <Wild0wnes> so if this became an issue i'm sure they would just have it randomize the port
489 2014-02-28 02:07:47 <Wild0wnes> ya?
490 2014-02-28 02:07:53 Jamesz has joined
491 2014-02-28 02:07:53 <Luke-Jr> probably
492 2014-02-28 02:08:48 agricocb has joined
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494 2014-02-28 02:10:07 Bawse has joined
495 2014-02-28 02:10:15 <olalonde> is there a script that can sign a message with all keys in wallet?
496 2014-02-28 02:10:21 derbumi has joined
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499 2014-02-28 02:14:30 <anton000> is there an api call to check if a given vout of a non-wallet tx is still unspent? or do i have to go thru chainstate?
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507 2014-02-28 02:23:38 <anton000> anyone?
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527 2014-02-28 02:42:25 <olalonde> mmm
528 2014-02-28 02:42:58 michael_lee has joined
529 2014-02-28 02:43:42 <jcrubino> is there a send transactions api call for blockchain.info?
530 2014-02-28 02:52:53 Gyps has joined
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551 2014-02-28 03:10:36 <olalonde> is there any public bitcoind RPC server out there i can use to test some code?
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564 2014-02-28 03:13:51 <justanotheruser> Please give me an example of a script that needs OP_NOP
565 2014-02-28 03:14:58 <jgarzik> a script that invents a new script opcode
566 2014-02-28 03:15:37 roidster has joined
567 2014-02-28 03:16:13 <justanotheruser> jgarzik: what do you mean?
568 2014-02-28 03:16:37 <justanotheruser> Like an OP enforced by miners?
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580 2014-02-28 03:23:58 <jgarzik> justanotheruser, soft fork upgrade, inventing a new op
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583 2014-02-28 03:25:58 <naout> OunSomPed
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597 2014-02-28 03:36:36 <olalonde> is there any way i can install bitcoind without downloading the blockchain? i am mainly interested in the signmessage command
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634 2014-02-28 04:06:10 <olalonde> hey all
635 2014-02-28 04:06:15 <olalonde> everyone sleeping?
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643 2014-02-28 04:18:42 <venzen> i'm also interested in the answer to your last question
644 2014-02-28 04:21:04 buggin_out1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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646 2014-02-28 04:24:31 <venzen> how about passing -connect with a bogus address - that'll prevent fetching the blockchain - and most commands do work...
647 2014-02-28 04:26:51 <olalonde> does listreceivedbyaddress also list addresses which have "spent" their bitcoin
648 2014-02-28 04:27:24 <olalonde> lets say i receive 1 BTC to address A and I spend that bitcoin... will listreceivedbyaddress show A with balance 1 ?
649 2014-02-28 04:28:09 <olalonde> also does listreceivedbyaddress list change addresses?
650 2014-02-28 04:28:29 bawse has quit (Quit: Leaving)
651 2014-02-28 04:28:35 <venzen> you know, i'm not sure... how abt trying that on testnet? should reveal a lot
652 2014-02-28 04:29:24 <olalonde> right
653 2014-02-28 04:29:28 <olalonde> where can i get some testnet coins?
654 2014-02-28 04:29:35 <venzen> someone gave a link to a testnet faucet here the other day...
655 2014-02-28 04:29:42 <venzen> not sure when
656 2014-02-28 04:29:52 <venzen> moment...
657 2014-02-28 04:29:52 <olalonde> im not sure i have enough space on my mac for the blockchain :/
658 2014-02-28 04:30:02 <olalonde> ok thanks
659 2014-02-28 04:30:12 <venzen> yea, blockchain is getting unwealdy
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663 2014-02-28 04:31:25 <olalonde> what i want is to list all addresses with spendable inputs
664 2014-02-28 04:32:36 <anton000> currently 19g full-index lol
665 2014-02-28 04:32:50 <olalonde> testnet blockchain?
666 2014-02-28 04:32:59 <anton000> no
667 2014-02-28 04:33:02 <anton000> live
668 2014-02-28 04:33:08 <olalonde> ok
669 2014-02-28 04:33:35 foamz has joined
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671 2014-02-28 04:35:26 <venzen> olalonde: i found it: http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/
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673 2014-02-28 04:35:42 <olalonde> venzen
674 2014-02-28 04:35:43 <olalonde> thanks
675 2014-02-28 04:35:52 <venzen> no sweat
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679 2014-02-28 04:37:05 <olalonde> in fact what i want to do is sign the same message for all private keys in wallet
680 2014-02-28 04:37:13 <olalonde> at least the private keys who control >0 bitcoins
681 2014-02-28 04:37:26 spinza has quit (Disconnected by services)
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683 2014-02-28 04:37:51 <venzen> hence you want to know how to filter out those <0
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701 2014-02-28 04:38:25 <venzen> <=0
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783 2014-02-28 05:02:59 <justanotheruser> So, how is it determined that OP_MUL is potentially dangerous
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816 2014-02-28 05:08:42 <justanotheruser> What is the difference between OP_NUMEQUAL and OP_EQUAL?
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939 2014-02-28 05:39:33 <jgarzik> bitcoind: tinyformat.h:474: void tinyformat::detail::FormatIterator::finish(): Assertion `0 && "tinyformat: Too many conversion specifiers in format string"' failed.
940 2014-02-28 05:39:36 <jgarzik> GRUMBLE
941 2014-02-28 05:40:06 <jgarzik> ostringstream to the rescue :(
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1102 2014-02-28 07:32:50 <wumpus> jgarzik: where do you get that?
1103 2014-02-28 07:33:40 antephialtic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1105 2014-02-28 07:33:48 <wumpus> jgarzik: that message should appear when there are more % specifiers than arguments
1106 2014-02-28 07:34:40 <wumpus> jgarzik: switching to ostringstream won't solve anything
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1111 2014-02-28 07:37:37 <olalonde> lets say i have a list of addresses, is there a way to get the total balance?
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1114 2014-02-28 07:38:36 <Apocalyptic> olalonde, you can do that with pywallet, get the balance of a specific address then sum them
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1116 2014-02-28 07:38:51 <olalonde> any way to do it with RPC command?
1117 2014-02-28 07:39:33 <Apocalyptic> not unless these addresses belong all to the same account
1118 2014-02-28 07:39:55 <Apocalyptic> but you shouldn't rely on accounts anyway
1119 2014-02-28 07:39:58 <Luke-Jr> …
1120 2014-02-28 07:40:16 <Luke-Jr> addresses don't have balances
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1131 2014-02-28 07:45:31 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: what do you mean? if i have an address, I cannot see how much bitcoins it controls?
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1134 2014-02-28 07:46:47 <olalonde> (its private key controls)
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1137 2014-02-28 07:47:28 <olalonde> what's the number you see when you type an address in blockchain.info?
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1140 2014-02-28 07:48:01 <olalonde> "Final Balance"
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1142 2014-02-28 07:48:12 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: addresses are not private keys
1143 2014-02-28 07:48:26 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: bc.i is full of misinformation, just ignore it
1144 2014-02-28 07:48:27 <olalonde> of course, but you understood what I mean?
1145 2014-02-28 07:48:36 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: it's an entirely meaningless number
1146 2014-02-28 07:48:44 <olalonde> weird
1147 2014-02-28 07:49:08 <olalonde> isn't there a scheme to prove you own bitcoins by signing a message with your private key?
1148 2014-02-28 07:49:08 <Luke-Jr> you get weird stuff when you mix high-level and low-level concepts
1149 2014-02-28 07:49:15 <Luke-Jr> no
1150 2014-02-28 07:49:53 <olalonde> weird, I think gmaxwell mentioned this scheme a while ago here
1151 2014-02-28 07:49:56 <Luke-Jr> it proves you signed a message with a private key, which also has the power to sign a transaction spending a given UTXO
1152 2014-02-28 07:50:10 tlrobinson_ has joined
1153 2014-02-28 07:50:13 <olalonde> yes right
1154 2014-02-28 07:50:16 <Luke-Jr> it does not prove you have any right of ownership over bitcoins represented by that UTXO
1155 2014-02-28 07:50:28 <olalonde> what I mean by balance is the sum of all UTXO spendable by an addresses' private key
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1157 2014-02-28 07:50:36 <olalonde> but I figure its simpler to call it address balance
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1161 2014-02-28 07:50:55 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: addresses don't have private keys; it's unidirectional
1162 2014-02-28 07:50:57 <olalonde> oh you lost me there
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1165 2014-02-28 07:51:43 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: there are many people who can sign messages with an address, where the private key used also controls UTXOs which that individual has no right to or control of
1166 2014-02-28 07:52:03 adam3us has joined
1167 2014-02-28 07:52:24 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: what do you mean? are you referring to non standard scripts?
1168 2014-02-28 07:52:34 MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1169 2014-02-28 07:53:04 <Luke-Jr> no
1170 2014-02-28 07:53:19 <olalonde> mmm I'm not sure I understand then
1171 2014-02-28 07:53:28 <olalonde> so there's no way to prove you own a given amount of bitcoins?
1172 2014-02-28 07:53:29 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: signed messages prove the address pays you. it does not speak to the UTXOs controlled by the private key which generates that address.
1173 2014-02-28 07:53:46 <Luke-Jr> there is not presently, no.
1174 2014-02-28 07:53:57 <Luke-Jr> in theory, it is possible to make a standard for such a thing
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1176 2014-02-28 07:55:11 <olalonde> so if i sign a message with the private key of 17847DcjNuLCAmvLd2cqj4UZbHbi4PVN6Q, it does not prove I own 0.003 BTC? https://blockchain.info/address/17847DcjNuLCAmvLd2cqj4UZbHbi4PVN6Q
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1178 2014-02-28 07:55:28 <Luke-Jr> 17847DcjNuLCAmvLd2cqj4UZbHbi4PVN6Q is an address, not a private key
1179 2014-02-28 07:55:47 <Luke-Jr> and no
1180 2014-02-28 07:55:48 <olalonde> the private key that generated 17847DcjNuLCAmvLd2cqj4UZbHbi4PVN6Q
1181 2014-02-28 07:56:00 <olalonde> are you pretending not to understand?
1182 2014-02-28 07:56:07 <Luke-Jr> if you sign with that private key, you only prove you are the recipient of bitcoins sent to 17847DcjNuLCAmvLd2cqj4UZbHbi4PVN6Q
1183 2014-02-28 07:56:45 <olalonde> what's the difference between owning bitcoins and being the recipient of bitcoins?
1184 2014-02-28 07:56:59 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1185 2014-02-28 07:57:01 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: there is no evidence whether you have spent those bitcoins since receiving them
1186 2014-02-28 07:57:14 <Apocalyptic> olalonde, i think the point is different pubkeys can result in the same address
1187 2014-02-28 07:57:19 <Luke-Jr> Apocalyptic: no\
1188 2014-02-28 07:57:31 <olalonde> in "theory"
1189 2014-02-28 07:57:36 <olalonde> not in practice
1190 2014-02-28 07:57:40 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: in practice too
1191 2014-02-28 07:58:01 <Apocalyptic> Luke-Jr, no as not the point or no as that statement is false
1192 2014-02-28 07:58:05 <olalonde> has it happened before?
1193 2014-02-28 07:58:13 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: all the time
1194 2014-02-28 07:58:18 <olalonde> isn't the whole premise behind bitcoin is that this kind of collision wont happen?
1195 2014-02-28 07:58:45 <Luke-Jr> oh, not Apocalyptic's thing
1196 2014-02-28 07:58:50 <Luke-Jr> collisions jsut don't happen
1197 2014-02-28 07:59:21 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: do people ever own bitcoins?
1198 2014-02-28 07:59:26 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: sure
1199 2014-02-28 07:59:31 <olalonde> by your definition you never owned any bitcoins unless you spent them
1200 2014-02-28 07:59:39 <Luke-Jr> I never said anything of that sort.
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1202 2014-02-28 08:00:40 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: you seem to be terribly confused, probably because of blockchain.info. unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to help you get past that :/
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1204 2014-02-28 08:00:52 <olalonde> "if you sign with that private key, you only prove you are the recipient of bitcoins sent to 17847DcjNuLCAmvLd2cqj4UZbHbi4PVN6Q"
1205 2014-02-28 08:00:56 <olalonde> this is the confusing part
1206 2014-02-28 08:01:11 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: addresses are only used to receive
1207 2014-02-28 08:01:16 <Luke-Jr> there is no "sending address"
1208 2014-02-28 08:01:33 <Luke-Jr> so you can never tell when someone has sent bitcoins (and therefore no longer owns them)
1209 2014-02-28 08:02:27 <Luke-Jr> to have a balance, you need to know about both receives AND sends out
1210 2014-02-28 08:02:28 <jcorgan> olalonde: being able to sign a message with a private key that was the one that generated a given address only means you have control over any pay-to-pubkey-hash transactions sent to that address. but it doesn't say that you still "own" them, as you might have already spent them forward
1211 2014-02-28 08:02:55 <olalonde> jcorgan: ah, makes sense
1212 2014-02-28 08:02:55 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: it doesn't mean you have control either, since there is a standard which should be exposed to the owner
1213 2014-02-28 08:02:58 <olalonde> jcorgan: thanks
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1215 2014-02-28 08:04:02 <jcorgan> Luke-Jr: can you clarify?
1216 2014-02-28 08:04:11 <olalonde> jcorgan: it does mean I owned at some point in time.. until the moment i spent them
1217 2014-02-28 08:04:35 <Apocalyptic> without being able to tell if that moment happened
1218 2014-02-28 08:04:36 <olalonde> really Luke-Jr I'm wondering if you're intentionally trying to be confusing haha
1219 2014-02-28 08:04:44 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: for example, let's say Bitstamp controls all the private keys for their hot wallet
1220 2014-02-28 08:05:08 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: Bitstamp *should* let you sign messages proving you receive on any address they've issued to you
1221 2014-02-28 08:05:41 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: but your ability to sign messages with it, does not imply you have control over the UTXOs, nor that you have ownership of UTXOs which were created in transactions previously sending to that address
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1223 2014-02-28 08:05:57 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: all it proves, is that you are the recipient of bitcoins sent to the address in question
1224 2014-02-28 08:06:19 <jcorgan> well, in your case, it is really Bitstamp that is doing the signing
1225 2014-02-28 08:06:51 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: it's really a CPU inside some server somewhere. let's not get technical. :P
1226 2014-02-28 08:07:11 <Luke-Jr> the person doing the signing, is the one who issues the command
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1228 2014-02-28 08:07:39 <olalonde> ah now i know what you mean Luke-Jr
1229 2014-02-28 08:07:56 <olalonde> someone could sign a message for you
1230 2014-02-28 08:08:47 <jcorgan> olalonde: but the original point you were bringing up, about finding the "balance" for an address, is mis-conceived
1231 2014-02-28 08:09:31 <jcorgan> there are only unspent transaction outputs, zero or more, that may be claimed if you have the right private key
1232 2014-02-28 08:09:46 <jcorgan> nowhere in bitcoin are there any "balances" recorded or maintained
1233 2014-02-28 08:09:50 <olalonde> sure
1234 2014-02-28 08:09:54 <olalonde> balance is a high level concept
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1236 2014-02-28 08:10:21 <anton000> "balance of an address" = basically collection of unspent transactions that can be opened by the same private key that generated the address
1237 2014-02-28 08:10:51 <anton000> not opened.... "spent"
1238 2014-02-28 08:10:52 <olalonde> it's just shorter to write balance then "unspent transaction outputs"
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1240 2014-02-28 08:11:16 <Luke-Jr> anton000: that number is entirely meaningless
1241 2014-02-28 08:11:47 <jcorgan> but it is dangerous conceptual shortcut, as it leads to thinking like, "can't we just all agree on the 'balance' of all addresses at one time and delete the blockchain before that", etc.
1242 2014-02-28 08:12:22 <anton000> luke-jr: what do you mean?
1243 2014-02-28 08:12:23 <jcorgan> or that since addresses have balances, I can spend some arbitrary amount below that "from" an address
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1245 2014-02-28 08:12:35 <Luke-Jr> anton000: the number you have described has no useful meaning
1246 2014-02-28 08:12:40 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: do you suggest bitcoin wallets should no longer show a balance? maybe they could show the raw blockchain instead -_-
1247 2014-02-28 08:12:45 <Luke-Jr> anton000: it doesn't tell you anything
1248 2014-02-28 08:13:00 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: I suggested nothing of that sort either
1249 2014-02-28 08:13:18 <anton000> lol
1250 2014-02-28 08:13:28 <Luke-Jr> wallets are not addresses; and unlike addresses, wallets have balances
1251 2014-02-28 08:14:05 <jcorgan> you have any one point in time a set of private keys in your wallet that lets you control a list of unspent transaction outputs
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1254 2014-02-28 08:14:49 <Luke-Jr> the balance of a wallet is meaningful, as it tells you how many total bitcoins the wallet can spend on the blockchain
1255 2014-02-28 08:15:44 <anton000> was wondering if there's an api call to check if a given vout of a non-wallet tx is still unspent? or do i have to go thru leveldb and check chainstate myself?
1256 2014-02-28 08:15:58 <Luke-Jr> anton000: getrawtransaction <txid>
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1259 2014-02-28 08:16:07 <Luke-Jr> hmm
1260 2014-02-28 08:16:13 <Luke-Jr> I guess that doesn't tell the status of outputs
1261 2014-02-28 08:16:18 <anton000> yup yup
1262 2014-02-28 08:16:38 <Luke-Jr> that's annoying. such info should be readily available.
1263 2014-02-28 08:16:46 <anton000> i know!
1264 2014-02-28 08:16:55 <Luke-Jr> anton000: time to write a patch! :P
1265 2014-02-28 08:17:00 <jcorgan> it would need to be something like "is txid:vout a member of the UTXO set?"
1266 2014-02-28 08:17:01 <anton000> to think the chainstate db is there
1267 2014-02-28 08:17:08 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: do you have anything against watch only wallets which only contain addresses?
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1271 2014-02-28 08:17:44 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: that does not make sense as a concept.
1272 2014-02-28 08:18:39 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: watch only wallets don't make sense?
1273 2014-02-28 08:18:46 <Luke-Jr> watch only wallets do
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1275 2014-02-28 08:18:56 <Luke-Jr> the part that doesn't make sense is "which only contain addresses"
1276 2014-02-28 08:19:02 <anton000> my take on that. shouldnt call it wallet... shouldnt also to mix
1277 2014-02-28 08:19:03 <Luke-Jr> if it only contains addresses, it only has a receive direction
1278 2014-02-28 08:19:07 <anton000> my take on that. shouldnt call it wallet... shouldnt also mix
1279 2014-02-28 08:19:14 <Luke-Jr> but a wallet is bidirectional
1280 2014-02-28 08:19:39 <anton000> got Luke's this point reading back at the discussion on git
1281 2014-02-28 08:19:43 banghouse has joined
1282 2014-02-28 08:19:46 <anton000> and i completely agree
1283 2014-02-28 08:19:48 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: what do you mean? aren't watch wallets only for watching, not for spending?
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1288 2014-02-28 08:20:38 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: yes, but you need more information than mere addresses, to watch spending
1289 2014-02-28 08:20:45 <anton000> olalonde: if it is implemented as it is proposed now, you can mix spendable and non spendable addresses
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1291 2014-02-28 08:20:49 <Luke-Jr> with just addresses, you can only watch receiving
1292 2014-02-28 08:20:50 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: what other information is needed?
1293 2014-02-28 08:21:12 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: all the public keys for the wallet you want to watch
1294 2014-02-28 08:21:29 <Luke-Jr> or, the watch-only HD wallet seed to generate those
1295 2014-02-28 08:21:48 <olalonde> interesting. why public key instead of address?
1296 2014-02-28 08:22:00 derbumi_ is now known as derbumi
1297 2014-02-28 08:22:15 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: because the address only receives
1298 2014-02-28 08:22:17 <olalonde> in case someone sends you a non standard transaction?
1299 2014-02-28 08:22:30 <Luke-Jr> someone cannot send you a non-standard transaction unless you tell them to
1300 2014-02-28 08:22:42 <Luke-Jr> (because if you don't ask for it, it isn't to you)
1301 2014-02-28 08:22:44 <olalonde> right
1302 2014-02-28 08:23:03 <olalonde> but why the need for public key instead of address for watch only wallet?
1303 2014-02-28 08:23:15 <Luke-Jr> because addresses don't send
1304 2014-02-28 08:23:15 <olalonde> what is the public key needed for?
1305 2014-02-28 08:23:32 <Luke-Jr> addresses only receive
1306 2014-02-28 08:23:39 <olalonde> public keys send?
1307 2014-02-28 08:23:41 <olalonde> what do you mean?
1308 2014-02-28 08:23:45 <anton000> lololol
1309 2014-02-28 08:23:47 <Luke-Jr> private keys send. public keys let you observe it.
1310 2014-02-28 08:24:11 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1311 2014-02-28 08:24:12 <olalonde> right
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1313 2014-02-28 08:24:27 <olalonde> aren't addresses generated deterministcally from the public key?
1314 2014-02-28 08:25:12 <Luke-Jr> yes
1315 2014-02-28 08:25:26 <Luke-Jr> but addresses are opaque
1316 2014-02-28 08:25:28 <olalonde> If I recall correctly , some wallets let you add addresses for watch only
1317 2014-02-28 08:25:40 <olalonde> are they wrong to do that?
1318 2014-02-28 08:25:54 <Luke-Jr> probably
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1320 2014-02-28 08:26:05 <olalonde> ok
1321 2014-02-28 08:26:06 <anton000> olalonde.. really to understand you have to know a little about the techincalities of transactions
1322 2014-02-28 08:26:18 <olalonde> anton000: I know the technicalities
1323 2014-02-28 08:26:26 <olalonde> hence my confusion
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1325 2014-02-28 08:26:35 <Luke-Jr> you can show a record of all transactions an address has received, in theory, but it's not a wallet since it's unidirectional
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1327 2014-02-28 08:26:47 <olalonde> I don't see how using public keys for a watch only wallet is superior to using addresses
1328 2014-02-28 08:26:50 <olalonde> seems both are equivalent
1329 2014-02-28 08:26:54 <anton000> right now wat you understad as right as a transaction to an address is made by the scriptpubkey: OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG
1330 2014-02-28 08:27:19 <olalonde> anton000: yes
1331 2014-02-28 08:27:29 <anton000> the pubkeyhash is the hash256 of the public key
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1333 2014-02-28 08:27:35 <olalonde> pubKeyHash = address
1334 2014-02-28 08:27:38 <olalonde> right?
1335 2014-02-28 08:27:50 <anton000> the adress is ripemd160(sha256(pubkey))
1336 2014-02-28 08:27:55 <olalonde> right
1337 2014-02-28 08:28:03 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: if a transaction sent to 1foobar creates UTXO 42, UTXO 42 has no relationship to address 1foobar
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1339 2014-02-28 08:28:11 <jcrubino> Luke-Jr: when creating a raw transaction is there any difference between testnet & main?
1340 2014-02-28 08:28:19 <Luke-Jr> jcrubino: doubt it
1341 2014-02-28 08:28:52 <jcrubino> thanks
1342 2014-02-28 08:29:10 <aynstein> m
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1344 2014-02-28 08:29:56 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: "I sent 1 BTC to 1foobar" occurs at the high level, and "UTXO 42 is created, redeemed by public key X" at a low level. But those two events are essentially unrelated to each other strictly speaking
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1347 2014-02-28 08:31:31 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: right. but if I have the public key, I know that its private key redeems UTXO 42.
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1349 2014-02-28 08:31:48 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: yes, but that is unrelated to 1foobar
1350 2014-02-28 08:32:02 <olalonde> isn't 1foobar derived from the public key?
1351 2014-02-28 08:32:14 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: if you are just watching the address 1foobar, you shouldn't pay any attention to UTXO 42
1352 2014-02-28 08:32:24 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: technically, it is. but that's not relevant here.
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1354 2014-02-28 08:33:29 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: so it would not be possible to create a watch only wallet that tracks addresses instead of public keys right?
1355 2014-02-28 08:33:47 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: it doesn't make sense as a concept
1356 2014-02-28 08:33:53 <olalonde> ok
1357 2014-02-28 08:33:56 <Luke-Jr> you have an accumulation, not a wallet
1358 2014-02-28 08:34:05 <olalonde> I thought I saw that at some point but maybe I wasn't paying attention
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1361 2014-02-28 08:37:46 <olalonde> so if i put my bitcoin address on my website to receive donations and use https://blockchain.info/address/1zUtE2Xh4f2AosfuUJJ8Z2AdLcY5jkebd to see the Final Balance, it doesn't necessarily mean that those bitcoins are controlled by me right?
1362 2014-02-28 08:37:56 <aynstein> Luke-Jr: earlier you said public keys let you observe, addresses have a child relationship to public keys right? Is that relationship why addresses are a poor choice for watch only? Or am i way off?
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1364 2014-02-28 08:38:25 <Luke-Jr> aynstein: it's a paradigm/conceptual mismatch
1365 2014-02-28 08:39:03 <Luke-Jr> aynstein: addresses are not related to transactions signed by the private key they are created by
1366 2014-02-28 08:39:12 <aynstein> oh, trying to follow, i am missing something because I am a little bit confused...
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1368 2014-02-28 08:39:39 <Luke-Jr> Key A creates address 1fun, but address 1fun has no relationship with transactions signed by Key A
1369 2014-02-28 08:39:41 <olalonde> of course
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1371 2014-02-28 08:40:22 <olalonde> oh now, I'm even more confused :(
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1373 2014-02-28 08:41:25 <aynstein> and because transactions are recieved by addresses it doesnt matter
1374 2014-02-28 08:41:30 <aynstein> not sent
1375 2014-02-28 08:41:42 <aynstein> right?
1376 2014-02-28 08:41:48 <Luke-Jr> I think you've got it there
1377 2014-02-28 08:41:55 <anton000> unidirectional
1378 2014-02-28 08:42:01 <aynstein> no, but i am starting too.
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1380 2014-02-28 08:42:21 <Luke-Jr> I'm working with the assumption that a wallet is bidirectional - even if watch-only, it still *observes* both sends and receives
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1382 2014-02-28 08:42:43 <anton000> but really as a concept.. i dont any sense in a wallet that you cant spend from
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1384 2014-02-28 08:43:02 <anton000> probably a monitor, i cant spend from... but a wallet as a concept i should be able to
1385 2014-02-28 08:43:04 <Luke-Jr> if someone decides to call something which only observes receives a "watch only wallet", then they can argue using addresses. but that's not a reasonable redefinition IMO
1386 2014-02-28 08:43:32 <olalonde> confusion cleared :)
1387 2014-02-28 08:43:57 <aynstein> ahhhhh, now I understand you're blockchain.i remarks.
1388 2014-02-28 08:45:01 <aynstein> it is only watching,
1389 2014-02-28 08:45:21 <Luke-Jr> bc.i is just confusion
1390 2014-02-28 08:45:30 <anton000> and the implementation in the pull request as it is now, allows it to be mix, whoch really just will make it confusing and has no usecase that i can think of
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1392 2014-02-28 08:45:58 <Luke-Jr> they equate addresses and keys, then show both sides of the key which are unrelated, and imply there is a connection that doesn't exist
1393 2014-02-28 08:46:08 <olalonde> one thing I still understand is how would a watch wallet that uses public keys be different from a watch wallet that uses addresses
1394 2014-02-28 08:46:39 <aynstein> a watch wallet that was a wallet must use keys, I think is the point.
1395 2014-02-28 08:46:48 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: watching a single key makes little sense, but if you have an entire wallet you want to watch, you can watch all its keys
1396 2014-02-28 08:46:54 <aynstein> although the information can be gleened from addresses.
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1398 2014-02-28 08:47:14 <aynstein> or part of.
1399 2014-02-28 08:48:02 <anton000> lol
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1401 2014-02-28 08:48:19 <anton000> multi-wallet really would solve that
1402 2014-02-28 08:48:33 <anton000> i meant the mixing being confusing
1403 2014-02-28 08:48:48 <Luke-Jr> it's pretty simple to make just a watch-only wallet right now
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1405 2014-02-28 08:49:18 <anton000> the throw away method?
1406 2014-02-28 08:49:23 <Luke-Jr> yeah
1407 2014-02-28 08:49:35 <Luke-Jr> I use it for Eligius's store
1408 2014-02-28 08:49:39 <Luke-Jr> works great
1409 2014-02-28 08:50:00 <anton000> but if im not mistaken you cant add new keys?
1410 2014-02-28 08:50:54 <Luke-Jr> no need
1411 2014-02-28 08:51:04 <Luke-Jr> just make it more than you'll ever need up front
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1416 2014-02-28 08:52:23 <anton000> hmmm... didnt really think of that
1417 2014-02-28 08:53:38 <Luke-Jr> besides, you can always repeat the process
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1419 2014-02-28 08:54:53 <Traubert> I find this whole discussion confusing - is Luke-Jr saying that you *can't* demonstrate control of bitcoins by signing messages?
1420 2014-02-28 08:55:22 <Luke-Jr> Traubert: there is no standard for that today, short of creating a transaction
1421 2014-02-28 08:55:22 <olalonde> yes... I think his point was that you could convince someone else to sign a message for you
1422 2014-02-28 08:55:30 <olalonde> through an website for example
1423 2014-02-28 08:55:51 <Traubert> but barring that - let's say that the signed message is very explicit
1424 2014-02-28 08:56:17 <olalonde> I'm also confused... I think that was his point
1425 2014-02-28 08:56:18 <Luke-Jr> Traubert: the signmessage functionality implies only that you receive bitcoins sent to the address
1426 2014-02-28 08:56:29 <Luke-Jr> Traubert: it does not imply anything about the key, or UTXOs controlled by the key
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1428 2014-02-28 08:57:16 <Traubert> how can a person sign messages with a key without being able to make transactions?
1429 2014-02-28 08:57:22 <Luke-Jr> Traubert: a website (eg, a webwallet or exchange) which issues you addresses to deposit coins with, is expected to allow you to sign messages with the key generating that address
1430 2014-02-28 08:57:36 <Luke-Jr> even though you do not necessarily own the UTXOs controlled by that key
1431 2014-02-28 08:58:09 <Traubert> oooh
1432 2014-02-28 08:58:09 <olalonde> "how can a person sign messages with a key without being able to make transactions?" <-- also wondering (assuming you do own the key)
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1434 2014-02-28 08:58:12 <Luke-Jr> so you might have withdrawn all your bitcoins, but still be able to sign a message using the key that controls 100 BTC in that exchange
1435 2014-02-28 08:58:54 <Traubert> but... surely you don't mean using the key, but using the website's facility for signing messages, or something
1436 2014-02-28 08:59:05 <Traubert> because if you have the key, you can make transactions, right?
1437 2014-02-28 08:59:33 <Luke-Jr> right, you don't have the key directly
1438 2014-02-28 08:59:41 <anton000> in a sense i think you need 2 pieces of info... that you can sign and that the transaction is still utxo
1439 2014-02-28 09:00:00 <Luke-Jr> you have access to sign using the standard format for proving you receive at an address
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1442 2014-02-28 09:01:19 <Traubert> right
1443 2014-02-28 09:01:27 <Traubert> well, that's kind of a silly situation
1444 2014-02-28 09:01:49 <Luke-Jr> nah, just deals with one specific use case
1445 2014-02-28 09:02:08 <Luke-Jr> and nobody has cared to try to add similar functionality for other use cases
1446 2014-02-28 09:02:13 <Luke-Jr> so far
1447 2014-02-28 09:03:22 <Traubert> like "how can an exchange demonstrate to users that it really holds the bitcoins it claims to hold"?
1448 2014-02-28 09:03:28 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: I don't see how making a transaction is any different from the problem with signing
1449 2014-02-28 09:03:38 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: you could make a transaction using a shared wallet as well
1450 2014-02-28 09:04:48 <olalonde> Traubert: I'm actually working on that. but this discussion has really confused me. https://github.com/olalonde/blind-solvency-proof
1451 2014-02-28 09:05:11 <olalonde> getting back to work now :O
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1454 2014-02-28 09:05:29 <Luke-Jr> Traubert: the easiest way would be a transaction to itself with a far-future lock time
1455 2014-02-28 09:05:32 <Luke-Jr> for all funds
1456 2014-02-28 09:05:50 <Luke-Jr> but there's a way to do it such that it doesn't reveal the exchange's UTXOs as well, IIRC
1457 2014-02-28 09:06:05 <Luke-Jr> I don't recall the specifics to that though
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1459 2014-02-28 09:06:47 <Traubert> Luke-Jr: thanks for explaining
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1479 2014-02-28 09:20:56 <dansmith_btc> Hi, are there any tools available to deserialize script? I have deserialized a raw tx using pybitcointools and I get ...'ins':[{'script':'XXX', 'outpoint':...}]. I need to deserialize the XXX part. Any ideas?
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1485 2014-02-28 09:25:12 <wumpus> dansmith_btc: python-bitcoinlib can decode/print scripts
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1488 2014-02-28 09:25:57 <wumpus> and match them against templates
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1501 2014-02-28 09:51:44 <dansmith_btc> wumpus, have you used the lib? I find it frustrating to figure out how it works. i import bitcoin/script.py and do mscript=script.CScript('my hex script'). How do I decode it next?
1502 2014-02-28 09:52:31 <wumpus> yes, I've used it and it should be possible, I suggest checking the source code to find out how to do that
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1644 2014-02-28 12:28:14 <eian> My academic paper will be presented in the financial crypto 2014 conference next weeek. It shows how to map bitcoin addresses to ips. Feel free to read the paper and comment on the corresponding reddit post: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z69dj/new_academic_paper_shows_how_researchers_can_map/
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1652 2014-02-28 12:31:55 <wallet42> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=492006.0
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1663 2014-02-28 12:43:52 <Persopolis> gents, where is the network sync/catchup initiated from
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1667 2014-02-28 12:48:07 <TD> eian: thanks!
1668 2014-02-28 12:48:38 <eian> Sure thing. I need the reddit karma.
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1670 2014-02-28 12:48:48 <eian> I think a few other people here are presenting at the conference
1671 2014-02-28 12:49:16 <TD> eian: i think you could have done CoinSeer using the latest bitcoinj version, but maybe not when you were working on the paper
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1673 2014-02-28 12:49:43 <TD> eian: we are hoping to start routing SPV traffic from bitcoinj users over Tor by default, in the forseeable future. so this would also complicate such analysis
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1675 2014-02-28 12:50:05 <eian> TD: Yeah, that would make my analysis explode :P
1676 2014-02-28 12:50:19 <TD> well it'd probably make no difference actually
1677 2014-02-28 12:50:24 <TD> because SPV clients don't accept connections
1678 2014-02-28 12:50:32 <TD> so you'd be mismapping IPs for them anyway already
1679 2014-02-28 12:50:38 <TD> but it can help against bulk fibre tapping
1680 2014-02-28 12:50:57 <eian> bbl - Need to go to work and all that jazz
1681 2014-02-28 12:51:01 <TD> and people sharing your wifi of course. but then they know your IP already
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1683 2014-02-28 12:55:12 <wumpus> TD: I wondered this when investigating the 1Enjoy 1Soschi spam: do you know if bitcoinj-based wallets rebroadcast received transactions that don't confirm?
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1685 2014-02-28 12:56:03 <TD> yeah they do
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1687 2014-02-28 12:56:09 <TD> i mean they rebroadcast pending transactions
1688 2014-02-28 12:56:45 <wumpus> ok
1689 2014-02-28 12:57:29 <TD> why?
1690 2014-02-28 12:57:29 <wumpus> those transactions were huge, about ~25kb, with lots of outputs
1691 2014-02-28 12:57:45 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
1692 2014-02-28 12:57:57 <wumpus> dunno -- one of my suspicions was that it is a way to find IPs related to addresses
1693 2014-02-28 12:58:44 <TD> bcj 0.11.1 drops these transactions and won't relay them either
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1696 2014-02-28 12:59:26 <wumpus> on the other hand it's also unlikely because the transactions are huge, so a client rebroadcasting them would only imply *one* of the addresses matches, which isn't much info
1697 2014-02-28 13:00:06 <wumpus> good
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1700 2014-02-28 13:01:05 <Persopolis> is network sync done out of ThreadImport?
1701 2014-02-28 13:01:23 <sipa> Persopolis: no, only loading from disk is
1702 2014-02-28 13:01:33 <sipa> Persopolis: syncing from network is normal p2p operation
1703 2014-02-28 13:01:46 <sipa> so threadmessagehandler and such
1704 2014-02-28 13:01:51 <Persopolis> thanks :)
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1707 2014-02-28 13:03:00 <Persopolis> net.cpp i assume?
1708 2014-02-28 13:03:10 <wumpus> I wonder if it'd make sense to do block chain synchronization over plainnet and broadcasting wallet transactions over TOR
1709 2014-02-28 13:03:34 <sipa> Persopolis: protocol, net, main
1710 2014-02-28 13:03:38 <sipa> mostly main
1711 2014-02-28 13:03:52 <Persopolis> thankyou kind sir
1712 2014-02-28 13:03:54 <sipa> see SendMessages and ProcessMessages
1713 2014-02-28 13:03:56 <sipa> in main
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1715 2014-02-28 13:05:26 <wumpus> it's pretty cool that for java there is this library now to use the Tor network directly, wish there was something comparable for C/C++
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1745 2014-02-28 13:31:31 <wumpus> an option would be a bitcoin-qt-tor bundle, but that's difficult to do in a cross-platform way with more moving parts
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1747 2014-02-28 13:33:36 <Persopolis> sipa: could you check my understanding plz main->appinit->appinit2->registernodesignals->sendmessages->pushgetblocks which is passing the locator based on previous getblock
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1752 2014-02-28 13:37:15 <sipa> Persopolis: it's a lot more complex than that
1753 2014-02-28 13:37:31 <sipa> also it's not really registernodesignals calling sendmessages
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1756 2014-02-28 13:40:28 <Persopolis> i know this is all async message processing once connected to a node - haven't understood where node selection is made for sync or in fact how the spftware prevents parallel duplication of sync to multiple nodes
1757 2014-02-28 13:42:30 <sipa> it does not
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1761 2014-02-28 13:42:57 <sipa> we basically download a block from whoever announces it to us
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1763 2014-02-28 13:44:10 <Persopolis> set getblocks essentially get issued to all connected nodes? and whoever responds first is what goes in first, rest ditched as duplicates?
1764 2014-02-28 13:44:30 <Persopolis> meant to read So instead of set
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1766 2014-02-28 13:44:41 <sipa> eh yes and no
1767 2014-02-28 13:44:54 <Persopolis> rofl
1768 2014-02-28 13:45:09 <sipa> there is a concept of a sync node, and we make sure that node is always at least once asked for a getblocks, to start the sync cycle
1769 2014-02-28 13:45:16 <sipa> and if the sync node disappears, another is chosen
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1771 2014-02-28 13:45:50 <sipa> but that's all, the rest is a cycle of getblocks -> inv -> getdata -> block -> getblocks
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1776 2014-02-28 13:47:03 <Persopolis> ah that's what I was missing - sync node - makes a lot more sense now and also explains why it is quite hard to make sync work using multiple nodes
1777 2014-02-28 13:47:09 <jgarzik> wumpus, RE tor lib, +100
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1783 2014-02-28 13:50:42 <Persopolis> sync node related to node->fStartSync flag?
1784 2014-02-28 13:50:58 <sipa> iirc yes
1785 2014-02-28 13:51:27 <Persopolis> sipa - many thanks - you are a total gent being patient with me :)
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1788 2014-02-28 13:52:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Persopolis: note that hopefully sync nodes will go away when headers-first is ready
1789 2014-02-28 13:53:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or rather, they won't play as much of a central role in the sync process
1790 2014-02-28 13:53:46 <sipa> there still will be a syncnode, similar to now, but it will only drive the headers-syncing process
1791 2014-02-28 13:53:54 <sipa> which becomes independent from the block-syncing process
1792 2014-02-28 13:54:04 <Persopolis> michael_lee - yes i know you guys are working on that - i'm just educating muself :)
1793 2014-02-28 13:54:06 <sipa> headers: getheaders -> headers -> getheaders -> ...
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1795 2014-02-28 13:54:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: yeah, I realized that was probably the case as soon as I tapped send
1796 2014-02-28 13:54:22 <sipa> blocks: getdata -> block -> getdata -> ...
1797 2014-02-28 13:54:36 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: i'm impressed; it took me a while to realize that :)
1798 2014-02-28 13:54:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Persopolis: "you guys" is mostly sipa
1799 2014-02-28 13:55:12 <sipa> s/sipa/sipa when he finds some spare moment/
1800 2014-02-28 13:55:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: uh, how else?
1801 2014-02-28 13:55:39 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: i just didn't think about it really until i started implementing it - then that became obvious of course
1802 2014-02-28 13:55:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Got it
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1804 2014-02-28 13:57:18 <Persopolis> a round robin dispatcher for connected nodes
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1808 2014-02-28 14:02:42 <Persopolis> i assume you have to build the chain linkage fully before parallel getdata
1809 2014-02-28 14:03:02 <sipa> indeed
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1836 2014-02-28 14:31:30 <justanotheruser> What is the difference between OP_NUMEQUAL and OP_EQUAL?
1837 2014-02-28 14:32:03 <sipa> byte-per-byte comparison vs numeric comparison
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1839 2014-02-28 14:32:58 <justanotheruser> sipa: isn't the number representation of two values going to be the same if their byte-by-byte comparison is the same (and vice versa)?
1840 2014-02-28 14:33:12 <sipa> yes, no
1841 2014-02-28 14:33:24 <sipa> 0x00 0x01 is numerically equal to 0x01
1842 2014-02-28 14:33:38 <justanotheruser> ah
1843 2014-02-28 14:33:46 <sipa> byte equality implies numeric equality of course
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1845 2014-02-28 14:33:58 <justanotheruser> I forgot they could be different lengths
1846 2014-02-28 14:34:38 <justanotheruser> thanks sipa
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1876 2014-02-28 15:05:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, I disconnected?
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1878 2014-02-28 15:05:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There goes my voice :-/
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1883 2014-02-28 15:09:51 <justanotheruser> So, how is it determined that OP_MUL is potentially dangerous?
1884 2014-02-28 15:10:15 Subo1977 has joined
1885 2014-02-28 15:10:28 <sipa> justanotheruser: ask satoshi
1886 2014-02-28 15:10:32 Datavetaren has quit ()
1887 2014-02-28 15:11:06 <justanotheruser> ;;seen satoshi
1888 2014-02-28 15:11:06 <gribble> satoshi was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 years, 1 week, 5 days, 15 hours, 9 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <satoshi> satoshi is here!
1889 2014-02-28 15:11:18 <sipa> he never joined irc
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1894 2014-02-28 15:12:01 <justanotheruser> sipa: Do no coredevs know?
1895 2014-02-28 15:12:25 <sipa> justanotheruser: the reason was simply "nobody is using it, so we don't know whether it actually works"
1896 2014-02-28 15:12:28 <sipa> presumably
1897 2014-02-28 15:12:45 <sipa> probably people at the time didn't realize that re-enabling would be much harder later on
1898 2014-02-28 15:13:03 <sipa> but for all intents and purposes, OP_MUL simply doesn't exist
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1900 2014-02-28 15:13:16 <sipa> and re-enabling it would be just as hard as implementing it from scratch
1901 2014-02-28 15:13:24 <sipa> (=a hard fork)
1902 2014-02-28 15:13:25 <justanotheruser> sipa: Is it OP_NOP, or is it invalid?
1903 2014-02-28 15:13:46 <sipa> i believe it is invalid
1904 2014-02-28 15:14:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, it is
1905 2014-02-28 15:15:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It doesn't exist as an opcode, and is treated no differently from any other non-existent opcode, aborting execution as a failure.
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1907 2014-02-28 15:15:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Unless I'm misremembering)
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1909 2014-02-28 15:16:23 <justanotheruser> I hope some of the useful ops gen enabled in the near future
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1912 2014-02-28 15:17:33 <sipa> justanotheruser: hardfork != near future
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1914 2014-02-28 15:18:26 <justanotheruser> sipa: there has been a hardfork like every other year
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1916 2014-02-28 15:18:44 <justanotheruser> every other meaning once every two years, not every year except 2014
1917 2014-02-28 15:18:48 <sipa> justanotheruser: there has been exactly one hardfork ever, and that one was to fix a very uncontroversial bug
1918 2014-02-28 15:19:01 <sipa> on may 15th, 2013
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1920 2014-02-28 15:19:13 <justanotheruser> sipa: wasn't there one in 2009 to fix OP_RETURN?
1921 2014-02-28 15:19:18 <sipa> justanotheruser: that was a soft fork
1922 2014-02-28 15:19:27 <justanotheruser> sipa: oh, my mistake then
1923 2014-02-28 15:19:29 <sipa> hard fork == old clients become incompatible
1924 2014-02-28 15:19:33 <wumpus> enabling individual opcodes will likely not be done, it would be a redesign of the scripting system, if a hardfork is needed anyway it'd better be done properly in one go
1925 2014-02-28 15:19:40 <sipa> yeah
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1927 2014-02-28 15:20:23 <justanotheruser> well hopefully the scripting system will be ready to go on a testnet and will be implemented next time a hardfork is necessary
1928 2014-02-28 15:20:43 <wumpus> testnet or another side-chain
1929 2014-02-28 15:20:46 <jouke> sipa: the >21million-transaction fix was a hardfork as well wasn't it?
1930 2014-02-28 15:21:05 derbumi has joined
1931 2014-02-28 15:21:14 <sipa> jouke: afaik it only made some things invalid that were valid before, so no
1932 2014-02-28 15:21:26 <wumpus> justanotheruser: just wondering, what do you need OP_MUL for so badly?
1933 2014-02-28 15:21:34 <wumpus> +for
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1935 2014-02-28 15:22:05 <justanotheruser> wumpus: nothing, I am trying to make a language for compiling to the bitcoin scripting language, and it is a bit weird that it's disabled
1936 2014-02-28 15:22:27 <sipa> justanotheruser: that just makes it easier for you
1937 2014-02-28 15:22:39 <sipa> as you don't need to provide the equivalent in your source language
1938 2014-02-28 15:22:41 <justanotheruser> sipa: adding OP_MUL is trivial
1939 2014-02-28 15:22:50 <sipa> irrelevant :)
1940 2014-02-28 15:22:52 <justanotheruser> for me
1941 2014-02-28 15:23:03 <justanotheruser> obviously I don't mean a hardfork is trivial
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1943 2014-02-28 15:23:10 <wumpus> you can make up your own scripting system, compiling to the current bitcoin script is likely not worthwhile
1944 2014-02-28 15:23:14 <wumpus> :P
1945 2014-02-28 15:23:24 <justanotheruser> wumpus: why not?
1946 2014-02-28 15:23:36 <wumpus> because it's so locked down
1947 2014-02-28 15:24:29 <justanotheruser> wumpus: If malleability is fixed, then there are a ton of smart contracts possible
1948 2014-02-28 15:24:32 <wumpus> and anything you can write using it is simple enough to understand as 'assembly'
1949 2014-02-28 15:24:49 <Persopolis> a bitcoin script builder/tester might be useful though for service developers
1950 2014-02-28 15:25:07 <justanotheruser> Yes, I don't intend to have users use it
1951 2014-02-28 15:25:48 <justanotheruser> More companies who need to lock their TX certain ways
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1955 2014-02-28 15:26:43 <justanotheruser> At the very least, it will be useful as an assembler
1956 2014-02-28 15:26:50 <Persopolis> though atm as wumpus says, possibilities are limited
1957 2014-02-28 15:27:04 <wumpus> it's like initial programmable GPUs were too simple to warrant high level languages, later on the programmability became better and better and nowadays everyone uses higher level languages
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1959 2014-02-28 15:27:30 <justanotheruser> wumpus: it's pretty low level. The only thing it handles is stack manipulation
1960 2014-02-28 15:27:51 <justanotheruser> And choosing which "push" to use based on the data
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1962 2014-02-28 15:28:19 <Persopolis> first use case for a script tool would be to demonstrate use case for script OPs that are disabled/not yet created to make scripting more rich
1963 2014-02-28 15:29:32 <wumpus> justanotheruser: that makes sense
1964 2014-02-28 15:30:28 <justanotheruser> Persopolis: "I am really bad at math. Can someone solve 5x = 10"? (makes tx with 1btc output with script saying "PUSH 5 OP_MUL PUSH 10 OP_EQUAL"
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1968 2014-02-28 15:30:32 <wumpus> not using the right kind of push runs afoul of the new non-canoncial-pushes check
1969 2014-02-28 15:31:01 <wumpus> justanotheruser: mind that miners can steal your bounty
1970 2014-02-28 15:31:09 <Persopolis> lol
1971 2014-02-28 15:31:14 <justanotheruser> wumpus: but they will be able to solve my math problem...
1972 2014-02-28 15:32:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Not his problem
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1974 2014-02-28 15:32:22 <wumpus> justanotheruser: I mean, someone solves your math problem, submits a transaction to claim the bounty, then a miner takes the answer and makes sure that a modified transaction makes it into the chain where he claims the bounty
1975 2014-02-28 15:32:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|He puts out the bounty, he gets the answer
1976 2014-02-28 15:32:44 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: well it is if it disincivitizes people to do anything at all
1977 2014-02-28 15:32:45 <justanotheruser> wumpus: I see what you're saying
1978 2014-02-28 15:32:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: that's true
1979 2014-02-28 15:33:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But for 5x=10...
1980 2014-02-28 15:33:33 <Persopolis> I heard the NSA requested a new OP - OP_STORE_IP
1981 2014-02-28 15:33:34 <justanotheruser> wumpus: could you rephrase 10:29 < wumpus> not using the right kind of push runs afoul of the new non-canoncial-pushes check
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1986 2014-02-28 15:34:22 <wumpus> justanotheruser: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3025/files
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1989 2014-02-28 15:36:12 <justanotheruser> wumpus: The compiler should select the correct PUSH based on data size
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2001 2014-02-28 15:45:37 <waxwing> is it possible to have a script in a transaction which only returns true if the signer can provide a proof of work? like a partial preimage thing like bitcoin itself? so like mining to get the outputs of a transaction?
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2004 2014-02-28 15:49:44 <Persopolis> yes - an unspendable script - it goes to the miner
2005 2014-02-28 15:50:19 <waxwing> Persopolis, :) yes, that fits the definition, but i am thinking more of a "toy" mining problem with a lower difficulty
2006 2014-02-28 15:50:32 <waxwing> apologies if my question is slightly stupid or insane, that is very possible..
2007 2014-02-28 15:51:50 <Persopolis> as far as I understand things, there is no interface for such a thing, though the script easily expresses it - so a toy problem would need to be noticed and manually solved at the moment
2008 2014-02-28 15:52:33 <Persopolis> e.g. look at Transaction problem at the bottom of https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
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2014 2014-02-28 15:54:57 * Persopolis ceveats what his says by clarifying he is a near total noob and probably unqualified to answer your question
2015 2014-02-28 15:56:18 <waxwing> right. i guess the only extra piece is whether you can make it a partial preimage problem so the difficulty can be set
2016 2014-02-28 15:56:33 <waxwing> as you say the solving would be outside the protocol, of course
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2018 2014-02-28 15:57:21 <waxwing> presumably there is some kind of "greater than" op code
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2024 2014-02-28 15:59:08 <Persopolis> perhaps better to discuss what you are trying to do in #bitcoin and then come back to implementation methodology
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2026 2014-02-28 15:59:51 <waxwing> sure. i have no fixed goal in mind, just musing; was interested in whether it's technically possible in scripts.
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2067 2014-02-28 16:45:02 <jcorgan> In https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules, on the section for "'Block' Messages", there is a list of acceptance rules when receiving a block from a peer. Is this still accurate, or should I consult the source?
2068 2014-02-28 16:45:16 <sipa> it is unlikely to be up to date
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2070 2014-02-28 16:45:56 <jcorgan> thought that might be the case, thanks
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2074 2014-02-28 16:48:28 <dansmith_btc> Hi, is there a convenient python script to perform OP_CHECKSIG on scriptSig? Would be really helpful if I could avoid spending hours rolling my own.
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2107 2014-02-28 17:19:49 <Persopolis> dansmith_btc - check this https://github.com/phantomcircuit/bitcoin-alt - it's an incomplete abandoned project, but may have a snippet for you to reuse
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2115 2014-02-28 17:23:12 <wumpus> python-bitcoinlib has the ecdsa stuff, though I don't think it has script evaluation for any opcodes
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2247 2014-02-28 18:16:14 <petertodd> wumpus: I just got SignatureHash() to work in python-bitcoinlib, so OP_CHECKSIG works
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2250 2014-02-28 18:16:38 <petertodd> dansmith_btc: ^
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2252 2014-02-28 18:17:05 <petertodd> wumpus: passes all the bitcoin core unit tests fwiw
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2254 2014-02-28 18:19:32 <wumpus> nice
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2256 2014-02-28 18:20:40 <petertodd> wumpus: pity I'm setting a bad example re: reimplementing EvalScript(), but I need to get practice w/ consensus-critical code for mastercoin
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2264 2014-02-28 18:31:59 <alex_fun> hello
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2266 2014-02-28 18:32:19 <alex_fun> does newest bitcoin-qt support qr codes?
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2276 2014-02-28 18:33:23 <petertodd> alex_fun: it can display a qr code; i don't think it can scan one
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2279 2014-02-28 18:34:56 <alex_fun> oki thanks
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2337 2014-02-28 19:23:07 <Luke-Jr> ok, so we have a consensus-except-for-just-Gavin <.<
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2354 2014-02-28 19:33:23 <_biO_> regarding the size / groth rate of the blockchain: is this a non-issue, because of what is described in https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf ("Reclaiming Disk Space") and just not implemented yet? Or am I misunderstanding something here?
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2357 2014-02-28 19:35:15 <Luke-Jr> _biO_: even if you reclaim the disk space later, it must still be used first
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2359 2014-02-28 19:35:39 <Luke-Jr> _biO_: nodes always need to download and process the data, even if they delete it when done
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2363 2014-02-28 19:37:40 <_biO_> so it's not possible to have something like a snapshot of all balances that everyone agrees upon in a cryptographically secure way?
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2365 2014-02-28 19:38:10 <_biO_> you'll always have to "replay" all transactions?
2366 2014-02-28 19:38:18 <haakonn> i have a very tiny fix for build instructions for debian/qt5, should i make a pull request or what?
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2369 2014-02-28 19:39:13 <jcrubino> when creating the hexstring of a raw transaction... what is that exactly?
2370 2014-02-28 19:39:15 <jcrubino> 01000000014444c90c53ca2593b0ece719b1fbb86770aa436655fd58867cee7f6160b2e4dd010000008b483045022032e8b463d29e469f3eff1a881690ef89148fe493307c4c756f1c0cf33611ba44022100e424e7c8932cac7b42776e8cbe095d7af3014ef979bf7c914ce83e5e2158feaa0141048d6b5ac81d778a0fa26b8e6e2e5fca91cd4cf301dc2cc1bbe911375240d71062141609a3915208d2223f6a10332d738450343caadb9686e2a694618ef93486f0ffffffff0210270000000000001976a9147988a01a23036789c9495b033bed69a882d98f968
2371 2014-02-28 19:39:15 <jcrubino> 8ace01b1800000000001976a914b1ecc42dcd49dc3a376b9d048340fc94fa31c47988ac00000000
2372 2014-02-28 19:39:28 <jcrubino> is that my hex string or not?
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2381 2014-02-28 19:46:22 <jcrubino> anyone know what code -22
2382 2014-02-28 19:46:29 <jcrubino> means
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2386 2014-02-28 19:48:26 <jrick> rpcprotocol.h: RPC_DESERIALIZATION_ERROR = -22, // Error parsing or validating structure in raw format
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2388 2014-02-28 19:48:51 <jcrubino> jrick: what is the best way to debug a transaction?
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2391 2014-02-28 19:49:12 <jrick> but pretty sure that error is overloaded (used in other contexts where the deserialization succeeded but something else failed)
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2393 2014-02-28 19:49:32 <jrick> use decoderawtransaction
2394 2014-02-28 19:49:46 <andytoshi> jrick: decoderawtransaction will just give a -22, no info
2395 2014-02-28 19:50:00 <andytoshi> jcrubino: i use my rust tx parser with some extra trace output :s
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2397 2014-02-28 19:50:51 <jcrubino> https://dpaste.de/ZsOv
2398 2014-02-28 19:51:17 <jcrubino> first off where do I get a rust tx parser?
2399 2014-02-28 19:51:25 <andytoshi> jcrubino: that decodes fine for me
2400 2014-02-28 19:52:02 <andytoshi> jcrubino: rust is the language, you have to dl and build a compiler for it first. i run my txes through coinjoin-merge-unsigned to parse them, at
2401 2014-02-28 19:52:05 <jcrubino> sencondly; does that need to be in another format when sending to sendrawtransaction?
2402 2014-02-28 19:52:23 <andytoshi> https://github.com/apoelstra/coinjoin/
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2404 2014-02-28 19:53:12 <jcrubino> andytoshi: I did not realize coinjoin was in rust
2405 2014-02-28 19:53:18 <jcrubino> until now
2406 2014-02-28 19:53:20 <andytoshi> nope, decoderaw and sendraw use the same parser
2407 2014-02-28 19:53:20 <jrick> jcrubino: http://sprunge.us/HPSe
2408 2014-02-28 19:53:25 <andytoshi> jcrubino: that's the server-side code
2409 2014-02-28 19:53:46 <andytoshi> the client is in C, which is awful
2410 2014-02-28 19:54:22 <jcrubino> What made rust the go to choice?
2411 2014-02-28 19:54:23 <jrick> jcrubino: oh damn that's my testnet, but so addresses will be wrong if that's a mainnet tx
2412 2014-02-28 19:54:42 <jcrubino> jrick: they are testnet
2413 2014-02-28 19:54:46 <jrick> ah k
2414 2014-02-28 19:54:53 <jcrubino> thanks for posting that
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2420 2014-02-28 19:56:16 <andytoshi> jcrubino: rust has strong type safety and pointer semantics, and a -ton- of static analysis because of it
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2422 2014-02-28 19:56:46 <andytoshi> jcrubino: rust code can be just as low-level as C, and for normal code you don't need GC or manual memory management
2423 2014-02-28 19:57:03 <andytoshi> the static analysis is just that good that the compiler does it all for you, even with closures and pointers
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2440 2014-02-28 20:02:36 <jrick> jcrubino: and no, sendrawtransaction takes a serialized tx encoded as a hexstring
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2448 2014-02-28 20:05:40 <andytoshi> oh, derp, i meant the output of decoderaw can go into sendraw
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2450 2014-02-28 20:06:08 <andytoshi> no i didn't, never mind, i need some coffee
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2452 2014-02-28 20:06:47 <jcrubino> andytoshi: it works
2453 2014-02-28 20:06:50 <jcrubino> for me
2454 2014-02-28 20:06:51 <jcrubino> I think
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2502 2014-02-28 20:48:30 <dansmith_btc> Hi, are all outputs always signed or is there a way to partially sign certain outputs? Purely an academic exercise here
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2509 2014-02-28 20:51:47 <dansmith_btc> Use case: create an offline tx, sign it and pass it to the recepient. Let the recepient choose the output and broadcast.
2510 2014-02-28 20:52:23 <iwilcox> Doesn't that write a blank cheque?
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2513 2014-02-28 20:53:15 <dansmith_btc> iwilcox, yes, if the sender so desires, it's not that bad
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2518 2014-02-28 20:56:25 <yofuthamucka> Hello devs
2519 2014-02-28 20:56:31 buZz has joined
2520 2014-02-28 20:56:34 <yofuthamucka> Needed some support on running an ALT coin daemon.. was wondering if I should be asking here?
2521 2014-02-28 20:56:37 <dansmith_btc> got it, SIGHASH_NONE does that
2522 2014-02-28 20:56:44 <buZz> has anyone here interfaced to bitcoind's RPC over SSL from perl? :D i'm having a hard time getting it to work ..
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2548 2014-02-28 21:11:35 <Ad0> is there a guide for making a safe service using a wallet? and wallet strategies for managing lots of users
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2550 2014-02-28 21:11:57 <Ad0> whether you should have a huge wallet vs lots of small wallets etc
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2562 2014-02-28 21:23:36 <shadylog> Ad0: use the bitcoind rpc api
2563 2014-02-28 21:23:43 <shadylog> Ad0: don't make a custom client
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2565 2014-02-28 21:25:24 <Ad0> shadylog: yeah I figure that's the best idea
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2568 2014-02-28 21:25:34 <Ad0> bitcoind on localhost
2569 2014-02-28 21:25:45 <Ad0> I guess it accepts multiple requests at once?
2570 2014-02-28 21:25:52 <Ad0> as in thread safe
2571 2014-02-28 21:25:56 <buZz> yes
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2586 2014-02-28 21:27:11 <Ad0> great
2587 2014-02-28 21:27:30 <Ad0> but let's say if you had an exchange or a casino, is there like a pattern / guide for wallet handling ?
2588 2014-02-28 21:27:41 <Ad0> I guess it's cumbersome to have a 1:1 wallet / user
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2638 2014-02-28 21:36:21 <skinnkavaj> Quote from Sunnyking
2639 2014-02-28 21:36:23 <skinnkavaj> However in my opinion blockchain data structure has some inherent scalability limitations, so such a goal is probably not wise for a single cryptocurrency. Note currently PPC/XPM still has a lower fee than bitcoin in terms of the real fee value. So there is no need to rush this topic. In fact the minimum fee is enforced in protocol to require a hardfork when changing minimum fee, exactly
2640 2014-02-28 21:36:23 <skinnkavaj> to encourage long term thinking and careful decision making regarding transaction fees. We should have plenty of time to observe bitcoin's struggle with block chain capacity (in terms of both total blockchain size and throughput/block size), the delicate balance between transaction fee, block chain capacity and user experience. In contrast to bitcoin dev I value decentralization and
2641 2014-02-28 21:36:23 <skinnkavaj> usability over a lower transaction fee.
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2754 2014-02-28 22:14:06 <chichov> does anyone have information on how the timestamp is adapted during mining?
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2762 2014-02-28 22:17:09 <justanotheruser> chichov: what do you mean "adapted"?
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2768 2014-02-28 22:18:12 <chichov> I've heard that it is updated every few seconds during mining so that it doesn't diverge too far from the time the block is mined
2769 2014-02-28 22:18:25 <chichov> see http://james.lab6.com/2012/01/12/bitcoin-285-bytes-that-changed-the-world/ search for "every few seconds"
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2773 2014-02-28 22:19:46 <justanotheruser> chichov: It looks like some mining clients change the time every few seconds so they don't have to keep changing the block header that they're hashing every second.
2774 2014-02-28 22:20:00 <justanotheruser> This isn't part of the protocol though, just a mining client
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2778 2014-02-28 22:20:51 <chichov> that's rather odd
2779 2014-02-28 22:21:17 <chichov> alright, so the timestamp is fixed when the mining process begins and isn't changed at any point?
2780 2014-02-28 22:21:31 <chichov> at least according to the protocol
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2782 2014-02-28 22:22:11 <justanotheruser> chichov: No, the timestamp is fixed after a valid block has been generated.
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2785 2014-02-28 22:23:04 <chichov> that doesn't make much sense - the timestamp is included in the block header hash and cannot be changed
2786 2014-02-28 22:23:31 <justanotheruser> chichov: Exactly. You don't care about an invalid block, so you can change the timestamp and make a new blcok
2787 2014-02-28 22:23:45 <chichov> and it says in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm that the timestamp is adapted every few seconds as well
2788 2014-02-28 22:24:12 <justanotheruser> chichov: It might be referring to the reference client. Either way, the timestamp doesn't have to be exact
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2790 2014-02-28 22:24:54 <chichov> if you receive a block then verification will fail because the timestamp isn't correct
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2792 2014-02-28 22:25:07 <chichov> the resulting hash will (most likely) not be below the target
2793 2014-02-28 22:25:11 <justanotheruser> chichov: you don't change the timestamp of a valid block
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2795 2014-02-28 22:25:44 <justanotheruser> you change the timestamp value every X seconds, so the potentially valid block you're trying to generate will be closer to the real time
2796 2014-02-28 22:25:47 <jcorgan> chichov: the timestamp can be varied at will during the search for a hash that meets the difficulty; once a satisfactory hash has been found, the block is broadcast, and of course the timestamp cannot be changed after that
2797 2014-02-28 22:26:09 <chichov> jcorgan: that's exactly what I'm trying to say
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2799 2014-02-28 22:26:32 <chichov> jcorgan: I'm just trying to find the code where the timestamp is updated every few seconds during the mining process
2800 2014-02-28 22:26:54 <justanotheruser> chichov: the first article you linked seemed to know where the code was
2801 2014-02-28 22:26:55 <chichov> as it says in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm, it is updated every couple seconds
2802 2014-02-28 22:27:16 <chichov> justanotheruser: it's an old post, the reference isn't valid anymore
2803 2014-02-28 22:28:15 <justanotheruser> The timestamp isn't changed when you have made a valid block. Mining involves hashing 100000000s of block headers until you get a valid one
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2807 2014-02-28 22:30:56 <chichov> I'm talking about the mining process, not what happens after a valid block has been generated
2808 2014-02-28 22:31:40 <justanotheruser> chichov: The mining process is changing the nonce of a block header until the hash of the block header is below a certain valu
2809 2014-02-28 22:32:17 <chichov> I believe you misunderstand my question
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2811 2014-02-28 22:33:07 <justanotheruser> in bitcoins source, main.cpp line 1300 they have UpdateTime()
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2890 2014-02-28 23:10:51 <skinnkavaj> Can I generate a private key with responding public key in bitcoin-qt?
2891 2014-02-28 23:11:06 <Diablo-D3> yes
2892 2014-02-28 23:11:10 <skinnkavaj> How?
2893 2014-02-28 23:11:10 <Diablo-D3> just create a new address.
2894 2014-02-28 23:11:17 <Dizzle> The Receive tab.
2895 2014-02-28 23:11:27 <skinnkavaj> can I see the private key there?
2896 2014-02-28 23:11:47 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: what are you trying to do?
2897 2014-02-28 23:11:48 <Dizzle> Nope, but you can go to Help/Debug and type a command in to get that.
2898 2014-02-28 23:12:03 <skinnkavaj> Dizzle: What's the command?
2899 2014-02-28 23:12:04 <Luke-Jr> private keys are a low-level part-of-a-wallet; humans shouldn't touch them
2900 2014-02-28 23:12:25 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: Generate private key and public key with bitcoin-qt instead of bitadresses.org site
2901 2014-02-28 23:12:27 <Dizzle> skinnkavaj: dumpprivkey <public addr>
2902 2014-02-28 23:12:33 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: why?
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2905 2014-02-28 23:12:41 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: Cold storage?
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2907 2014-02-28 23:12:48 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: sounds like a recipe for disaster
2908 2014-02-28 23:12:52 <Diablo-D3> yeah
2909 2014-02-28 23:12:53 <skinnkavaj> Why?
2910 2014-02-28 23:13:02 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: because you're not supposed to mess with private keys
2911 2014-02-28 23:13:10 <Luke-Jr> if you need cold storage, use something actually designed to do that
2912 2014-02-28 23:13:12 <Luke-Jr> like Armory
2913 2014-02-28 23:13:13 <Diablo-D3> skinnkavaj: bitcoind/-qt wasnt meant for that usage
2914 2014-02-28 23:13:35 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: I use bitadresses.org and import privkey
2915 2014-02-28 23:13:41 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: bad idea
2916 2014-02-28 23:13:44 <skinnkavaj> why?
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2918 2014-02-28 23:13:57 <Dizzle> If you want to have it in cold storage, best to create the private key outside of your wallet, otherwise it has effectively been tainted. Armory has tooling for this as Luke-Jr suggests. You can also use a client-side javascript or Python key generator, of which there are plenty out there.
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2920 2014-02-28 23:13:59 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: because you're not supposed to do that
2921 2014-02-28 23:14:16 <freesbies> How can I delete a address on bitcoin-qt client wallet?
2922 2014-02-28 23:14:20 <Luke-Jr> you cannot
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2924 2014-02-28 23:14:34 <skinnkavaj> Dizzle: Tainted?
2925 2014-02-28 23:14:38 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: private keys are not intended to be handled individually
2926 2014-02-28 23:14:39 <skinnkavaj> If i reinstall my os
2927 2014-02-28 23:14:42 <skinnkavaj> Install bitcoin-qt
2928 2014-02-28 23:14:50 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: cold storage should be a HD wallet seed only
2929 2014-02-28 23:14:50 <skinnkavaj> And then remove everything
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2933 2014-02-28 23:15:11 <Dizzle> skinnkavaj: yes, as in you've had your private key stored AND managed in a place connected to the Bitcoin network and the Internet as a whole, which goes against the cold storage concept.
2934 2014-02-28 23:15:40 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: the *ideal* scenario is to get a cheap netbook that you never connect to the internet, and run Armory on it
2935 2014-02-28 23:15:56 <Luke-Jr> but even if you can't do that, Armory is the only realistic solution
2936 2014-02-28 23:16:05 <Luke-Jr> although IIRC someone said electrum added similar functionality recently
2937 2014-02-28 23:16:30 <Dizzle> freesbies: deleting addresses from your bitcoin-qt wallet can have undesired consequences on the wallet's accounting. You can use a 3rd-party wallet editor like pywallet to accomplish this though if you're feeling nutty.
2938 2014-02-28 23:17:07 <skinnkavaj> Dizzle: My plan was to just delete the whole wallet and reformat the computer
2939 2014-02-28 23:17:08 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: the probability you *lose* bitcoins, is something like 20% of people who try to micromanage private keys
2940 2014-02-28 23:17:12 <skinnkavaj> After I have generated the private key
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2943 2014-02-28 23:17:53 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: Example?
2944 2014-02-28 23:18:02 <Dizzle> skinnkavaj: you could do that. Quite a bit of effort to do something that is simpler done with something like vanitygen, sx, or one of those other little apps.
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2946 2014-02-28 23:18:46 <freesbies> Dizzle: Are there any other alternative to pywallet?
2947 2014-02-28 23:18:54 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: example; you use the address more than once, and after you spend 2 of the UTXOs, your K value wasn't enough entropy so someone calculates your private key and steals the rest
2948 2014-02-28 23:19:07 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: AS long as I import privkey and send the whole amount to another address i should be fine?
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2950 2014-02-28 23:19:15 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: example: you import the private key to a wallet, and send some, but forget the change address
2951 2014-02-28 23:19:15 <Dizzle> freesbies: that's probably the biggest one. I'm sure there are others though. I really don't recommend this practice though.
2952 2014-02-28 23:19:31 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: maybe you will be. but it's still a stupid idea and high risk
2953 2014-02-28 23:19:37 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: I would personally never do it myself.
2954 2014-02-28 23:19:49 <skinnkavaj> I don't understand this
2955 2014-02-28 23:19:50 <skinnkavaj> after you spend 2 of the UTXOs, your K value wasn't enough entropy so someone calculates your private key and steals the rest
2956 2014-02-28 23:20:11 <Luke-Jr> (and I'm definitely not one to be incompetent about handling it if I tried)
2957 2014-02-28 23:20:30 <freesbies> Dizzle: I just want to clean up my wallet which is a mess now.
2958 2014-02-28 23:20:34 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: if you don't understand that, then you don't know enough to handle it safely
2959 2014-02-28 23:21:00 <Luke-Jr> freesbies: future versions won't show a list of addresses, so you won't need to worry :D
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2963 2014-02-28 23:22:34 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: If I take the private key with responding public key, write it on paper, then reinstall everything.. And next time in 5 years if I want to spend that BTC, I import everything by importprivkey and then send everything to another address (ex an exchange).. How can that be any risk?
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2965 2014-02-28 23:22:43 <freesbies> Luke-Jr: So how would I see the address?
2966 2014-02-28 23:23:30 <Dizzle> freesbies: gotchya. not sure what would be best approach.
2967 2014-02-28 23:23:32 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: risk is pretty low if you do that, but I still wouldn't advise doing it that way
2968 2014-02-28 23:23:49 <skinnkavaj> Pretty low? Should be no risk at all
2969 2014-02-28 23:24:01 <Luke-Jr> you forget relays
2970 2014-02-28 23:24:07 <skinnkavaj> ?
2971 2014-02-28 23:24:20 <Luke-Jr> quite possible someone runs a relay that decodes your private key, and automatically steals what it can
2972 2014-02-28 23:24:35 <skinnkavaj> Runs a relay?
2973 2014-02-28 23:24:36 <skinnkavaj> How?
2974 2014-02-28 23:24:45 <Luke-Jr> sigh
2975 2014-02-28 23:24:59 <Luke-Jr> if you have to ask these things, why are you playing with fire instead of using a supported cold wallet system?
2976 2014-02-28 23:25:15 <skinnkavaj> You dont wanna know
2977 2014-02-28 23:25:25 <skinnkavaj> What is a relay?
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2979 2014-02-28 23:26:04 <jcorgan> Luke-Jr: how is someone supposed to master knowledge of these subjects if every time they ask a question you just sign and tell them they shouldn't be "playing with fire"?
2980 2014-02-28 23:26:11 <jcorgan> sign=sigh
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2982 2014-02-28 23:26:35 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: there's a difference between studying the protocol, and asking for assistance playing with fire.
2983 2014-02-28 23:26:45 <Luke-Jr> they shouldn't be playing with fire, no matter how much they study it.
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2985 2014-02-28 23:27:02 <skinnkavaj> Please explain what a relay is and how it can decode my private key
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2988 2014-02-28 23:29:14 <Goonie> There is nothing wrong with playing with fire, as long as its only a small fire.
2989 2014-02-28 23:29:32 <skinnkavaj> ... and you have water nearby
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2992 2014-02-28 23:30:57 <keyboard> I guess a relay is someone between your wallet and a miner
2993 2014-02-28 23:32:29 <emowataji> skinnkavaj: and example of decoding private keys http://www.nilsschneider.net/2013/01/28/recovering-bitcoin-private-keys.html
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3019 2014-02-28 23:47:59 <Luke-Jr> tcatm: nice article
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3021 2014-02-28 23:48:24 <tcatm> Luke-Jr: Which one?
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3023 2014-02-28 23:48:37 <Luke-Jr> [23:31:54] <emowataji> skinnkavaj: and example of decoding private keys http://www.nilsschneider.net/2013/01/28/recovering-bitcoin-private-keys.html
3024 2014-02-28 23:48:52 <tcatm> ah, thanks :)
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3030 2014-02-28 23:52:11 <Cheena> Hey
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3032 2014-02-28 23:53:51 <Cheena> I want to develop a coin for my local network, just to understand how the bitcoin network works and learn in the process can anybody point me in the right direction ?
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3034 2014-02-28 23:55:41 <Cheena> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=225690.0 i've followed this for reference
3035 2014-02-28 23:56:35 <Persopolis> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification & get src off git
3036 2014-02-28 23:57:32 <Cheena> cool thank you Persopolis :)
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