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  37 2014-03-01 00:57:09 <lechuga_> lianj: are you the author of the btc ruby lib?
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  51 2014-03-01 01:19:00 <tlrobinson> has anyone bothered to look for 750k BTC worth of malleability in the blockchain yet? it's possible to look for txs that aren't normally generated by wallets, right?
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  54 2014-03-01 01:20:19 <tlrobinson> i was thinking of parsing the blockchain looking for all these https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691 forms of malleability, just wanted to make sure no one has already done it
  55 2014-03-01 01:20:42 tombtc has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  56 2014-03-01 01:20:56 <wilsonnl> trying to compile bitcoin(and qt) on windows7 64bit. when running C:/deps/boost1_55_0>bootstrap.bar mingw i'm getting: not recognize. fuild to build Boost.Build eingine. Any help?
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  59 2014-03-01 01:23:32 <Luke-Jr> wilsonnl: only one person does that regularly, and he's not on IRC often
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  62 2014-03-01 01:24:01 <wilsonnl> hehe dammit, windows is such a pain to compile on
  63 2014-03-01 01:24:27 <Luke-Jr> official builds are built on Linux
  64 2014-03-01 01:24:30 <wilsonnl> spamming litecoin and bitcoin now :D
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  66 2014-03-01 01:24:57 <Luke-Jr> wilsonnl: are you trying to build bitcoin-qt or litecoin?
  67 2014-03-01 01:25:05 <wilsonnl> litecoin
  68 2014-03-01 01:25:11 <Luke-Jr> then it's off-topic here
  69 2014-03-01 01:25:36 <wilsonnl> true, sorry
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  88 2014-03-01 01:47:16 <Ad0> can't one index everything in a relational database?
  89 2014-03-01 01:47:45 pierreatwork has joined
  90 2014-03-01 01:48:17 <sipa> sure
  91 2014-03-01 01:48:23 askmike has joined
  92 2014-03-01 01:51:56 <Ad0> maybe blockchain.info already does that
  93 2014-03-01 01:52:10 <sipa> seems likely
  94 2014-03-01 01:52:12 <Ad0> or jsut have it in-memory :)
  95 2014-03-01 01:52:32 <sipa> one does not exclude the other
  96 2014-03-01 01:52:38 <Ad0> guess not
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 100 2014-03-01 01:57:32 <Cheena> is Satoshi Nakamoto amongst us ?
 101 2014-03-01 01:57:43 <sipa> who knows
 102 2014-03-01 01:57:49 <sipa> does it matter?
 103 2014-03-01 01:58:04 <Cheena> yes
 104 2014-03-01 01:58:12 <Cheena> maybe to some
 105 2014-03-01 01:58:35 <sipa> what difference does it make?
 106 2014-03-01 01:59:42 <Cheena> It would be great knowing more about him from the man himself
 107 2014-03-01 02:00:24 <sipa> that's a very different question
 108 2014-03-01 02:00:44 <sipa> he's clearly chosen to disappear from public
 109 2014-03-01 02:00:58 <sipa> whether he's still watching or not doesn't matter in practice
 110 2014-03-01 02:00:58 <Cheena> oh well
 111 2014-03-01 02:01:02 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 112 2014-03-01 02:01:07 <Cheena> i guess you are right
 113 2014-03-01 02:01:24 <Cheena> meanwhile when i compile it throws this to me
 114 2014-03-01 02:01:25 <Cheena> main.cpp:2087:22: error: use of undeclared identifier 'PUBKEY_ADDRESS'
 115 2014-03-01 02:01:25 <Cheena>         CBlock block;PUBKEY_ADDRESS
 116 2014-03-01 02:02:22 <sipa> there is no PUBKEY_ADDRESS in main.cpp
 117 2014-03-01 02:03:09 <Cheena> silly me i corrupted the code
 118 2014-03-01 02:04:00 <Cheena> the scriptPubKey in main.cpp does it have to be generated or it stays the same ?
 119 2014-03-01 02:04:11 <Cheena> for every alt coin ?
 120 2014-03-01 02:04:19 <sipa> this is not #altcoin-dev
 121 2014-03-01 02:04:47 <Cheena> altcoin-dev does not exist
 122 2014-03-01 02:05:13 <kanzure> you can make it
 123 2014-03-01 02:05:21 <sipa> (i say this, not because i find altcoins uninteresting, but because i'm very tired of the hundreds of altcoins who don't experiment with any interesting changes, and just change a few constants without understanding the code)
 124 2014-03-01 02:05:23 <kanzure> freenode allows for users to join a channel to create it
 125 2014-03-01 02:06:16 <Cheena> @sipa how do you understand the code ? is it documented somewhere ?
 126 2014-03-01 02:06:34 <sipa> Cheena: i spent a few years time working on it
 127 2014-03-01 02:07:06 <Cheena> @sipa i better start from learning C and then understand the code
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 135 2014-03-01 02:18:26 <Cheena> sips are you from Belgium ?
 136 2014-03-01 02:18:30 <Cheena> sipa
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 181 2014-03-01 02:56:44 <rasmuzen> test
 182 2014-03-01 02:56:47 <rasmuzen> woo
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 186 2014-03-01 03:04:31 <todamoon> is there a list of cryptocurrency related white papers somewhere? stuff like satoshi's paper, zerocoin paper, etc.
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 209 2014-03-01 03:23:08 <rasmuzen> is this channel actually active at all?
 210 2014-03-01 03:23:45 <copumpkin> it varies
 211 2014-03-01 03:25:34 <rasmuzen> if I want to check the balance of a public address programmatically, I'm assuming I'll need to run bitcoind or bitcoin-qt, yeah?
 212 2014-03-01 03:25:37 <anton000> since what version did the comprssed pubkey got used as standard?
 213 2014-03-01 03:26:00 <gmaxwell> 40k messages in 2014 so far…
 214 2014-03-01 03:26:18 <rasmuzen> gmaxwell: pretty good actually, thanks
 215 2014-03-01 03:26:36 <gmaxwell> anton000: 0.6.0
 216 2014-03-01 03:27:20 super3 has joined
 217 2014-03-01 03:28:35 <rasmuzen> anybody?
 218 2014-03-01 03:29:51 <gmaxwell> rasmuzen: addresses don't have balances in the bitcoin system, and there is no straightforward way of computing all the coins spendable by a non-wallet key using bitcoind.
 219 2014-03-01 03:31:25 <rasmuzen> gmaxwell: thanks for the reply, how do addresses not have balances? can't I send bitcoins to any public address and then that public address has a balance of whatever I sent it?
 220 2014-03-01 03:31:36 hsmiths_ has joined
 221 2014-03-01 03:32:33 <jrick> addresses don't have an inherit balance, but access to the private key used to generate the address can result in you signing outputs others sent
 222 2014-03-01 03:32:53 <jrick> you have to track those transaction outputs (called utxos)
 223 2014-03-01 03:32:54 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 224 2014-03-01 03:33:07 <gmaxwell> rasmuzen: That doesn't actually reflect how the bitcoin system works. The system tracks spendable txout in utxo by transaction ID/vout. Whenever you send it coins you destroy some of your txouts and create new txouts which are spendable by the other person.
 225 2014-03-01 03:33:44 <gmaxwell> You can go and compute whats spendable by a particular scriptpubkey, but that requires having an (rather large) index by scriptpubkey which we do not have and do not need for normal operations.
 226 2014-03-01 03:34:25 debiantoruser has joined
 227 2014-03-01 03:34:59 <rasmuzen> gmaxwell: sorry I need to clarify that I'm talking about developing a third party application that would check balances for a given public address, nothing to do with core bitcoin software
 228 2014-03-01 03:35:15 <rasmuzen> gmaxwell: is this the right place for that kind of discussion?
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 232 2014-03-01 03:36:05 <gmaxwell> rasmuzen: Apparently not.
 233 2014-03-01 03:36:27 <rasmuzen> gmaxwell: what do you mean apparently...
 234 2014-03-01 03:36:38 yubrew has joined
 235 2014-03-01 03:37:25 <gmaxwell> Well, you're asking questions that don't actually make sense in the context of Bitcoin, and when I explain why you start asking if you're in the right place, so I suppose you must not be.
 236 2014-03-01 03:39:01 CodeShark has quit ()
 237 2014-03-01 03:39:07 <rasmuzen> gmaxwell: excuse my naivety for how Bitcoin actually works, my understanding of the implementation is pretty minimal, didn't mean to offend anyone.
 238 2014-03-01 03:39:22 CodeShark has joined
 239 2014-03-01 03:39:43 <CodeShark> I so much wish the term "address" had NEVER been applied to this
 240 2014-03-01 03:39:43 <CodeShark> it's bitcoin's most horrible misnomer
 241 2014-03-01 03:39:52 <CodeShark> confuses the hell out of ordinary users
 242 2014-03-01 03:40:08 <rasmuzen> codeshark: gmaxwell: so when I go to https://blockchain.info/address/1F1f9TcJam2CZG5uvDKewJGsrhsyP7awUP and it tells me a balance associated with a public address, what is actually going on?
 243 2014-03-01 03:40:20 <CodeShark> it has a large index
 244 2014-03-01 03:40:21 <rasmuzen> or what is the proper terminology
 245 2014-03-01 03:40:28 <CodeShark> keeps track of balances in a large database
 246 2014-03-01 03:40:40 <CodeShark> it's a custom database
 247 2014-03-01 03:40:47 hsmiths_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 248 2014-03-01 03:40:49 <gmaxwell> rasmuzen: bc.i maintains a database hundred of gigabytes in size that traces transaction history and provides a variety of aggregated views of it based on analysis of the transactions.
 249 2014-03-01 03:41:09 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 250 2014-03-01 03:41:15 <rasmuzen> so it calculates balances by iterating through the entire block chain (which is basically a list of transactions) and maintaining it as it updates live?
 251 2014-03-01 03:41:16 <gmaxwell> (and some of this data is somewhat misleading or inaccurate, though coins assigned to addreses aren't one of the things that are)
 252 2014-03-01 03:41:16 <CodeShark> invoice ID would have been a great name, perhaps
 253 2014-03-01 03:41:33 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yea, "order number"
 254 2014-03-01 03:41:41 go1111111 has joined
 255 2014-03-01 03:42:09 <gmaxwell> rasmuzen: or something morally equivalent to that.
 256 2014-03-01 03:42:25 <CodeShark> rasmuzen, blockchain maintains a huge custom database which it updates continuously
 257 2014-03-01 03:42:41 <CodeShark> these functions are NOT essential to the functioning of a bitcoin node
 258 2014-03-01 03:43:21 <rasmuzen> CodeShark: absolutely correct, but I'm in the business of providing consumer-facing bitcoin applications
 259 2014-03-01 03:43:26 <gmaxwell> rasmuzen: we don't current have eqivilent functionality available in bitcoind as its not required for the functionality of the system, it encourages non-scalable designs that can usually be avoided, and it currently would add about 20GBytes storage over what a full node with pruning would take up... though once we have pruning available will probably make such an index available optionally.
 260 2014-03-01 03:43:44 <CodeShark> although having said that, it wouldn't be so terrible to add an optional switch to allow txout indexing in bitcoind
 261 2014-03-01 03:44:00 Application has joined
 262 2014-03-01 03:44:49 <CodeShark> gmaxwell beat me to it :p
 263 2014-03-01 03:44:59 <gmaxwell> Did I beat you to http://canibuildasitehandlingotherpeoplesmoney.com/
 264 2014-03-01 03:45:33 todamoon has joined
 265 2014-03-01 03:45:37 <rasmuzen> gmaxwell: CodeShark: thanks a ton for chatting with me guys, this is really useful and it's fascinating to see the differences in terminology between core developers and general public
 266 2014-03-01 03:45:40 <CodeShark> is that mt gox's new domain?
 267 2014-03-01 03:46:36 <gmaxwell> rasmuzen: by "general public" what that generally means is "blockchain.info"— the service is handy but it creates some pretty substantial misunderstandings about how things actually work under the hood. (some of which have resulted in money loss)
 268 2014-03-01 03:46:54 <gmaxwell> Navigating thats hard. Making things easy often requires abstractions that fail in the edge cases.
 269 2014-03-01 03:47:14 <rasmuzen> gmaxwell: could you elaborate on those misunderstandings
 270 2014-03-01 03:48:16 askmike has joined
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 272 2014-03-01 03:48:24 <gmaxwell> There are many of them, the one responsible for the most actual funds loss is the notion that transactions have a well defined "from". (which results in funds loss when people 'refund' money to an estimated from and the funds go to a third party or into some black hole)
 273 2014-03-01 03:48:41 <gmaxwell> More benign is the belief that transactions carry a sender IP.
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 275 2014-03-01 03:49:45 <rasmuzen> gmaxwell: what all do transactions contain?
 276 2014-03-01 03:50:13 <CodeShark> the fact of the matter is bc is a wonderful tool for debugging and checking the operation of the bitcoin network - but it isn't particularly helpful to most end users
 277 2014-03-01 03:50:20 <gmaxwell> the format of a transaction is here https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction
 278 2014-03-01 03:50:46 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: not always wonderful... e.g. they display some invalid transactions as though they were perfectly valid, which is super confusing.
 279 2014-03-01 03:50:56 <gmaxwell> (e.g. send a spend of an immature coinbase directly to them)
 280 2014-03-01 03:52:03 <rasmuzen> gmaxwell: can I use "public key", "public address", and "Bitcoin address" interchangeably?
 281 2014-03-01 03:52:05 <CodeShark> hmm, seems like a simple enough fix - have you let them know about this?
 282 2014-03-01 03:52:17 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: it's a feature, not a bug.
 283 2014-03-01 03:52:29 <CodeShark> lol
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 286 2014-03-01 03:53:23 <gmaxwell> rasmuzen: probably not. often "public key" is used to refer to the ECDSA point encoded inside a bitcoin scriptPubKey and represented by a bitcoin address.
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 290 2014-03-01 03:54:02 <CodeShark> an "address" is actually a specific encoding for a specific type of script
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 292 2014-03-01 03:54:26 <jrick> addresses don't exist at the network level
 293 2014-03-01 03:54:41 <gmaxwell> indeed.
 294 2014-03-01 03:54:48 <rasmuzen> gmaxwell: so a wallet consists of a "private key" and a "bitcoin address"
 295 2014-03-01 03:54:54 Burrito has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 296 2014-03-01 03:55:09 <jrick> an address is a nework id + pubkey hash + checksum
 297 2014-03-01 03:55:18 <jrick> the pubkey hash appears in txout scripts
 298 2014-03-01 03:55:40 <gmaxwell> No, typical wallets are a collection of many private keys— normally a distinct one is used for every transaction for security, privacy, and accounting reasons... the wallet also typically contains transactions related to the wallet and additional metadata.
 299 2014-03-01 03:56:33 <gmaxwell> If you have a private key there isn't a particular need to seperately store a public key or address since you can generate them on the fly but I believe most wallets do (bitcoin-qt does) just to save cpu.
 300 2014-03-01 03:56:51 <CodeShark> you need a lookahead
 301 2014-03-01 03:57:11 <CodeShark> I suppose you could just keep a lookahead in RAM
 302 2014-03-01 03:57:18 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 303 2014-03-01 03:57:18 <jrick> need to save whether it's a compressed pubkey or not too
 304 2014-03-01 03:57:27 <jrick> a single pubkey can give you 2 addresses
 305 2014-03-01 03:57:33 <jrick> er
 306 2014-03-01 03:57:42 <jrick> yeah pubkey
 307 2014-03-01 03:57:51 <jrick> or thus, a single privkey
 308 2014-03-01 03:57:54 <gmaxwell> jrick: thats not really correct. In bitcoin the information about using point compression is effectively part of the private key.
 309 2014-03-01 03:58:08 javax has joined
 310 2014-03-01 03:58:18 <CodeShark> in the base58check encoding it is
 311 2014-03-01 03:58:20 <gmaxwell> (It's information you need to know to spend— definitionally everything you need to know to spend should be stored with the private key)
 312 2014-03-01 03:58:23 <CodeShark> but in the DER encoding it is not
 313 2014-03-01 03:58:58 <gmaxwell> There is no DER encoding of a bitcoin private key.
 314 2014-03-01 03:59:16 <gmaxwell> (yes, it _also_ shows up in the public point.)
 315 2014-03-01 04:00:06 <rasmuzen> gmaxwell: but from a consumer standpoint, you give your bitcoin address out and people can send bitcoins to it, and you can access/send those bitcoins only with your private key
 316 2014-03-01 04:00:15 <rasmuzen> gmaxwell: correct?
 317 2014-03-01 04:00:19 <CodeShark> gmaxwell, you do need to keep your keys indexed by address for things like getreceivedbyaddress :)
 318 2014-03-01 04:00:23 Subo1977 has joined
 319 2014-03-01 04:00:33 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: well, if you don't care about speed… :P
 320 2014-03-01 04:00:38 CSKiro has quit ()
 321 2014-03-01 04:01:17 <gmaxwell> rasmuzen: again, normally you have many addresses and private keys (otherwise how would you know who paid you?, for one example). But yes, thats how it works.
 322 2014-03-01 04:01:25 todamoon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 323 2014-03-01 04:01:29 BurritoBazooka is now known as Burrito
 324 2014-03-01 04:01:32 Burrito has left ("Leaving")
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 326 2014-03-01 04:01:40 <jrick> gmaxwell: ah that makes sense, at least with armory's format it just saves it as a 32-byte number
 327 2014-03-01 04:01:50 wyager has quit (Quit: wyager)
 328 2014-03-01 04:02:07 <CodeShark> rasmusen: a wallet typically contains many keys - from a private key it is possible to generate a public key, from a public key it is possible to generate an address
 329 2014-03-01 04:02:15 <CodeShark> but neither of these two steps can be taken in reverse
 330 2014-03-01 04:02:32 <kanzure> what was one of the steps?
 331 2014-03-01 04:02:43 <CodeShark> private key -> public key -> address
 332 2014-03-01 04:03:18 todamoon has joined
 333 2014-03-01 04:03:22 embicoin_ has left ()
 334 2014-03-01 04:03:37 embicoin has joined
 335 2014-03-01 04:03:47 <rasmuzen> CodeShark: so you give a different bitcoin address to each person who's going to send you coins so that you know who's sending to you, then once you receive those coins you send them to your main bitcoin address, then you can send from there because you know the private key associated with your mail bitcoin address
 336 2014-03-01 04:03:59 <gmaxwell> jrick: last I checked armory never used point compression. .. I suppose you could imagine the flag is an extra 33rd byte which is omitted for uncompressed keys. :P  (don't laugh, thats actually how the base58 check encoding used for WIF works)
 337 2014-03-01 04:04:05 Subo1977__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 338 2014-03-01 04:04:07 <CodeShark> there's no such thing as "your main bitcoin address"
 339 2014-03-01 04:04:27 <jrick> gmaxwell: armory doesn't support compressed pubkeys at all so that's not surprising
 340 2014-03-01 04:04:29 <rasmuzen> how do you associate multiple bitcoin addresses with a single private key?
 341 2014-03-01 04:04:32 <rasmuzen> codeshark:
 342 2014-03-01 04:04:38 <jrick> I had to extend their format
 343 2014-03-01 04:04:43 <jrick> to add a compressed flag
 344 2014-03-01 04:04:44 <CodeShark> bitcoin isn't a post office - it's a bunch of glass boxes with keys on them
 345 2014-03-01 04:05:02 <CodeShark> a transaction opens up some boxes and moves the contents into new boxes
 346 2014-03-01 04:05:15 <CodeShark> the old boxes can never be used again
 347 2014-03-01 04:05:25 <embicoin> hi
 348 2014-03-01 04:05:35 <embicoin> do you know what this message means?
 349 2014-03-01 04:05:36 <embicoin> ===	embicoin #bitcoin-dev Cannot change nickname while banned on channel
 350 2014-03-01 04:05:46 <CodeShark> anyone can see what's inside the box, but only someone who knows the private key can open it
 351 2014-03-01 04:06:11 <CodeShark> everytime you send a transaction, you create one or more brand new boxes
 352 2014-03-01 04:06:12 <embicoin> everytime freenode drops me i have the same problem, i must leave #bitcoin-dev, change nick then join again
 353 2014-03-01 04:06:15 <gmaxwell> embicoin: it means you must be registered with nickserv to talk in here, or to change your nick while you are in here.
 354 2014-03-01 04:06:27 <rasmuzen> CodeShark: so once you send bitcoins with a private key, you can never send bitcoins using that private key again?
 355 2014-03-01 04:06:49 <gmaxwell> set your client to correct with the correct nickname. Or authenticate with your nickname before switching. Nickserve can take the name as an argument as well as the password.
 356 2014-03-01 04:07:09 <CodeShark> rasmuzen: someone can always create another box that requires the same key to open
 357 2014-03-01 04:07:12 <CodeShark> but it's a different box
 358 2014-03-01 04:07:35 <rasmuzen> codeshark: what's different about it? doesn't it have the same bitcoin address and private key?
 359 2014-03-01 04:07:52 <embicoin> gmaxwell: thanks for the help, the problem is that almost everytime when it reconnects my "alter-ego" is still connected to the network, i must msg nickserv ghost to kick it
 360 2014-03-01 04:08:11 <gmaxwell> (Though generally reusing keys is discouraged for security, privacy, and accounting purposes. E.g. if you reuse an address you can't tell which party was paying you)
 361 2014-03-01 04:08:31 <CodeShark> is it the same to have $10 in one locked box as it is to have $1 locked up in ten different boxes, each which can be opened with the same key?
 362 2014-03-01 04:08:59 <CodeShark> in bitcoin, the case of multiple boxes being openable with the same key should not be treated as the norm
 363 2014-03-01 04:09:16 <CodeShark> you should generally assume that not very many boxes will be possible to open with the same key
 364 2014-03-01 04:10:01 <CodeShark> a wallet is much more likely to keep those $10 as a bunch of boxes, perhaps one has $1.12, another has $3.16, another has $.84, etc...
 365 2014-03-01 04:10:20 <CodeShark> and each of those boxes might require a different key to open
 366 2014-03-01 04:10:35 <embicoin> btw gmaxwell my grateful for your hard work with the client :D
 367 2014-03-01 04:10:37 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 368 2014-03-01 04:10:39 <CodeShark> to spend $5, the wallet will select a set of those boxes such that the total contents is $5 or more
 369 2014-03-01 04:10:53 <rasmuzen> CodeShark: so to clarify: every bitcoin address is associated with exactly one glass box
 370 2014-03-01 04:11:10 <CodeShark> if it's more than $5, it will create a brand new box containing the change which can be opened with yet another key
 371 2014-03-01 04:11:43 <CodeShark> no, rasmuzen - a bitcoin address is associated with a public key which is associated with a private key
 372 2014-03-01 04:11:51 skinnkavaj has joined
 373 2014-03-01 04:12:04 <rasmuzen> CodeShark: aware, but where do the metaphorical glass boxes fit in?
 374 2014-03-01 04:12:06 <CodeShark> point is, the "balance" in the wallet is the sum of the contents of all the boxes the wallet is capable of opening
 375 2014-03-01 04:12:10 zl4ttan has joined
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 377 2014-03-01 04:12:21 <CodeShark> regardless of whether or not they share the same key
 378 2014-03-01 04:12:54 <rasmuzen> CodeShark: how can two boxes share the same private key?
 379 2014-03-01 04:13:32 <CodeShark> if someone sends bitcoins to the same address twice, they have effectively created two boxes that can be opened using the same private key
 380 2014-03-01 04:14:05 <rasmuzen> CodeShark: why? why not just put the second stuff into the first box?
 381 2014-03-01 04:14:12 <CodeShark> because that's not how bitcoin works :p
 382 2014-03-01 04:14:22 <CodeShark> once a box is opened, it can never be used again
 383 2014-03-01 04:15:06 <rasmuzen> CodeShark: why is bitcoin implemented this way? wouldn't it be simpler to just have one box associated with each private key?
 384 2014-03-01 04:15:28 <rasmuzen> CodeShark: then let those with knowledge of bitcoin address deposit and those with knowledge of private key withdraw?
 385 2014-03-01 04:16:17 <CodeShark> that's the "intuitive" sense for how it should work according to most people - and one of the reasons the term "address" is so damn annoying
 386 2014-03-01 04:17:19 <rasmuzen> CodeShark: right, but why isn't it implemented that way?
 387 2014-03-01 04:17:43 <cysm> because rabbits
 388 2014-03-01 04:17:46 <CodeShark> lol
 389 2014-03-01 04:17:55 <rasmuzen> wat
 390 2014-03-01 04:17:58 <venzen> rasmuzen: consider that the glass boxes need to be recorded in the blockchain, going back and changing the same box with every tx will require changing old blocks
 391 2014-03-01 04:18:49 <rasmuzen> can't the blockchain just contain a list of transactions from glass box with bitcoin address A to glass box with bitcoin address B (and amount)
 392 2014-03-01 04:19:32 <CodeShark> in principle, the block chain could track changes in account balances
 393 2014-03-01 04:19:38 <CodeShark> but that's not how bitcoin was designed
 394 2014-03-01 04:20:08 <jrick> blockchain needs less bloat, not more
 395 2014-03-01 04:20:15 <rasmuzen> CodeShark: I understand that this isn't how bitcoin was designed, I'm trying to understand why because it seems overcomplicated to me and I'm pretty sure that it is this way for a good reason, a reason I'm trying to discover
 396 2014-03-01 04:21:22 <CodeShark> rasmuzen, the block chain actually stores transitions, not state
 397 2014-03-01 04:21:41 <CodeShark> the reason is because the blockchain is fundamentally a timestamping mechanism
 398 2014-03-01 04:21:55 <gmaxwell> rasmuzen: because the system is not instantaneously consistent and must reliably handle reordering of history in a determinstic, predictable, and controllable manner.
 399 2014-03-01 04:22:26 <CodeShark> the key problem that bitcoin sets out to solve is the doublespend problem
 400 2014-03-01 04:22:26 Cheena has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 401 2014-03-01 04:22:34 <gmaxwell> with just state storage it would become impossible to avoid paying someone twice if you needed to replace a transaction paying them with one with a higher fee, for example.
 402 2014-03-01 04:22:41 <CodeShark> the doublespend problem is easily defined in the context of these glass boxes
 403 2014-03-01 04:22:54 <CodeShark> has the box been opened before? if yes it's a doublespend
 404 2014-03-01 04:23:29 <CodeShark> the blockchain serves to establish consensus as to which box existed first
 405 2014-03-01 04:23:49 <CodeShark> once the box gets into the blockchain, its contents cannot be changed
 406 2014-03-01 04:23:50 <jcorgan> rasmuzen: bitcoin transactions are more general than "send bitcoin to address A".  It is actually "whoever can satisfy this output script can spend these bitcoins onward."  The most common (by far) type of output script is "whoever can prove they have the private key that corresponds to this address can spend these onward", but it doesn't have to be the case.
 407 2014-03-01 04:24:29 <jcorgan> so the only thing to do is to track the unspent outputs (UTXOs)
 408 2014-03-01 04:25:08 <jrick> you can publish an output that anyone can spend and I bet you almost no wallets will pick it up
 409 2014-03-01 04:25:26 alexykot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 410 2014-03-01 04:25:40 <gmaxwell> Thats also an important point.  Consider a transaction that can be recovered by keys {A and B} or any two out of {C,D,E} or F but only if he provides a value that hashes to 0xDEADBEEF.
 411 2014-03-01 04:25:51 <helo> all of them will likely pick it up, assuming it gets mined... i think
 412 2014-03-01 04:26:30 <gmaxwell> jrick: of course none will pick it up, it would be highly insecure to display such a transaction to the user.
 413 2014-03-01 04:26:38 <jrick> :)
 414 2014-03-01 04:26:43 <jrick> just illustrating the point
 415 2014-03-01 04:27:00 naout has quit ()
 416 2014-03-01 04:27:10 <rasmuzen> hmmmmmmmmmmm
 417 2014-03-01 04:27:26 <gmaxwell> a wallet should never display transactions sent to a scriptpubkey that they wouldn't have plausably (or did actually) request funds be sent to.
 418 2014-03-01 04:27:27 <CodeShark> rasmuzen: also as jcorgan points out, the lock on the box is actually a challenge in the form of a script
 419 2014-03-01 04:27:47 <rasmuzen> so there's a glass box with some stuff in it, I know the private key associated with that box, I spend *half* of the contents, what happens to the other half?
 420 2014-03-01 04:27:59 <CodeShark> boxes don't need to all have the same type of lock - the lock is actually a computer program which you must complete
 421 2014-03-01 04:28:09 <CodeShark> if you can add the missing piece that opens the lock, you can open the box
 422 2014-03-01 04:28:39 <jcorgan> rasmuzen: you can't spend only half
 423 2014-03-01 04:28:57 <CodeShark> rasumzen: to spend half, you'd create a new box and stick the other half into it
 424 2014-03-01 04:29:13 <CodeShark> and you'd never use the old box again
 425 2014-03-01 04:29:17 LightRider has joined
 426 2014-03-01 04:29:18 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: so any time you spend box contents, you specify where *all* of the contents go, and that can be multiple destination boxes
 427 2014-03-01 04:29:38 <jcorgan> right, and some of those destination boxes can be your own (new) ones
 428 2014-03-01 04:29:48 <rasmuzen> okay
 429 2014-03-01 04:29:58 <rasmuzen> and a box can be opened with exactly one private key?
 430 2014-03-01 04:30:13 <rasmuzen> *hopeful*
 431 2014-03-01 04:30:16 <CodeShark> there exists a specific type of lock that requires exactly one private keyt
 432 2014-03-01 04:30:20 <jcorgan> most boxes are designed to be opened by one private key, but you can make different types of locks
 433 2014-03-01 04:30:29 <CodeShark> but in general, the lock is actually a computer program which you must complete
 434 2014-03-01 04:30:30 <rasmuzen> I see
 435 2014-03-01 04:30:41 yubrew has joined
 436 2014-03-01 04:30:53 <rasmuzen> so is mining bitcoins just completing computer programs that are associated with boxes with coins in them?
 437 2014-03-01 04:31:06 <CodeShark> nope :)
 438 2014-03-01 04:31:11 <rasmuzen> aslk ejaljkh
 439 2014-03-01 04:31:20 <CodeShark> mining is more like a lottery
 440 2014-03-01 04:31:56 <CodeShark> you pick a bunch of random numbers, stick them through a black box, see what comes out - if the number that comes out is sufficiently small, you win
 441 2014-03-01 04:32:07 <CodeShark> the more numbers you try, the more likely you are to win
 442 2014-03-01 04:32:08 <rasmuzen> okay, let's leave mining aside for now then
 443 2014-03-01 04:32:09 cadaver has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 444 2014-03-01 04:32:31 <jcorgan> if you win, you get a free box that has some bitcoin already in it, that didn't come from somewhere else but is newly 'minted'
 445 2014-03-01 04:32:46 <rasmuzen> mkay
 446 2014-03-01 04:32:57 <rasmuzen> is there a more technical term for these glass boxes?
 447 2014-03-01 04:33:03 <CodeShark> txout
 448 2014-03-01 04:33:05 <jcorgan> unspent transaction outputs
 449 2014-03-01 04:33:11 <rasmuzen> okay
 450 2014-03-01 04:33:29 suhailski has joined
 451 2014-03-01 04:33:58 <rasmuzen> what's the diff between txout and utxos
 452 2014-03-01 04:34:10 <CodeShark> unspent means the box hasn't been opened yet
 453 2014-03-01 04:34:33 <CodeShark> the u in utxo
 454 2014-03-01 04:34:33 <jrick> rasmuzen: utxo is an unspent txout
 455 2014-03-01 04:34:40 <rasmuzen> awesome
 456 2014-03-01 04:34:44 <rasmuzen> it's coming together slowly, thanks a ton guys
 457 2014-03-01 04:35:00 exception1493 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 458 2014-03-01 04:35:01 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 459 2014-03-01 04:35:25 gjs278 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 460 2014-03-01 04:35:26 <jrick> if there's a validating tx that references that txout (by txsha and txout index) that output is spent
 461 2014-03-01 04:36:12 suhailski has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 462 2014-03-01 04:36:15 <jcorgan> rasmuzen: and now your understanding is likely better than that of a certain recently defunct bitcoin exchange operator
 463 2014-03-01 04:36:19 suhailski has joined
 464 2014-03-01 04:36:31 <rasmuzen> so if I generate a random private key and spend bitcoins to the associated bitcoin address, I'm effectively creating a glass box where the lock is knowing that private key, who's contents are the bitcoins I just spent
 465 2014-03-01 04:36:45 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: ^_^
 466 2014-03-01 04:36:56 gjs278 has joined
 467 2014-03-01 04:37:00 <CodeShark> precisely, rasmuzen :)
 468 2014-03-01 04:37:16 <rasmuzen> CodeShark: YES, is that how you would state that sentence or did i f** up the terminology?
 469 2014-03-01 04:37:42 <CodeShark> in essence I think you nailed it :)
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 473 2014-03-01 04:39:41 <rasmuzen> CodeShark: so I am very interested in abstracting this and letting people who know nothing about bitcoin store bitcoins in glass boxes that only they have access to via the private key associated with each glass box
 474 2014-03-01 04:39:48 <rasmuzen> in a web application
 475 2014-03-01 04:40:15 Soligor has quit (Quit: Soligor)
 476 2014-03-01 04:40:20 zl4ttan has quit (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
 477 2014-03-01 04:40:20 <jcorgan> rasmuzen: that raises a number of issues you should be aware of
 478 2014-03-01 04:40:46 <CodeShark> as a visualization/educational tool that would be really cool
 479 2014-03-01 04:41:07 rasmuzen_ has joined
 480 2014-03-01 04:41:13 <CodeShark> but for typical use case scenarios, all these details are hidden by the wallet
 481 2014-03-01 04:41:14 <rasmuzen_> hey sorry I got booted somehow
 482 2014-03-01 04:41:26 <CodeShark> I just said two things
 483 2014-03-01 04:41:32 <CodeShark> as a visualization/educational tool that would be really cool
 484 2014-03-01 04:41:32 <rasmuzen_> I got the "but for typical..>"
 485 2014-03-01 04:41:40 <CodeShark> but for typical use case scenarios, all these details are hidden by the wallet
 486 2014-03-01 04:41:44 <rasmuzen_> I see
 487 2014-03-01 04:43:10 <CodeShark> most users never have to look at these boxes directly - the wallet takes care of selecting boxes to open and creating new ones as needed - and just shows the user a balance
 488 2014-03-01 04:43:12 <rasmuzen_> CodeShark: so how does one create a wallet?
 489 2014-03-01 04:43:20 Vulgi_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 490 2014-03-01 04:43:42 <CodeShark> you mean as in write the software?
 491 2014-03-01 04:43:49 <rasmuzen_> CodeShark: lemme back up
 492 2014-03-01 04:44:10 rasmuzen has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 493 2014-03-01 04:44:14 <rasmuzen_> hmm
 494 2014-03-01 04:44:40 <rasmuzen_> CodeShark: no I mean create a bitcoin wallet and store bitcoins there and see my balance, how do I do that?
 495 2014-03-01 04:44:48 _ImI_ has quit (Quit: _ImI_)
 496 2014-03-01 04:45:07 rasmuzen_ is now known as rasmuzen
 497 2014-03-01 04:45:23 <jrick> the wallet itself, at a bare minimum (list of private keys), is simple
 498 2014-03-01 04:45:37 <jrick> but you'll want to save the utxos cooresponding to wallet keys
 499 2014-03-01 04:46:45 <rasmuzen> jrick: but how do I make one? do I need bitcoin-qt or something?
 500 2014-03-01 04:47:07 <jrick> software can create a wallet for you
 501 2014-03-01 04:47:15 <jrick> each may use a different format
 502 2014-03-01 04:47:19 <jcorgan> rasmuzen: there are several different types of wallet software packages you can use
 503 2014-03-01 04:47:22 <jrick> there's no standard wallet per se
 504 2014-03-01 04:47:29 caktux has quit (K-Lined)
 505 2014-03-01 04:48:48 <jcorgan> a wallet is usually just a portion of it.  For example, bitcoin-qt is actually a wallet + bitcoin network node + query server, while Electrum is just a wallet and relies on 3rd party servers
 506 2014-03-01 04:49:10 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: jrick: I think what I want to do is give people a way to create a wallet, store bitcoins there, send and receive bitcoins, and check their balance without ever having to know that there exists a wallet or utxos
 507 2014-03-01 04:49:26 kurtosis has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 508 2014-03-01 04:49:38 <rasmuzen> abstract away all the implementation details of bitcoin
 509 2014-03-01 04:49:39 <CodeShark> all wallet software works to that end to some extent or another :)
 510 2014-03-01 04:49:39 <jcorgan> rasmuzen: i presume you want to do this via a web interface?
 511 2014-03-01 04:49:44 Arnavion has joined
 512 2014-03-01 04:49:45 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: right
 513 2014-03-01 04:49:50 <fanquake> ;;blocks
 514 2014-03-01 04:49:51 <gribble> 288397
 515 2014-03-01 04:49:52 <jcorgan> so here is the critical issue
 516 2014-03-01 04:50:03 <jcorgan> where are the private keys created and stored?
 517 2014-03-01 04:50:35 <jcorgan> the answer to that question drives the entire architecture of your service
 518 2014-03-01 04:50:44 <jcorgan> and also the security aspects you'll have to manage
 519 2014-03-01 04:51:02 <CodeShark> if you want to write a wallet yourself, I suggest you start simple
 520 2014-03-01 04:51:18 <CodeShark> implement key generation and transaction signing
 521 2014-03-01 04:51:56 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: I would like to make it so that the glass box that, at the end of the day, contains all of the coins, is only known by the user OR it is in a database owned by me but encrypted with a password only known to the user
 522 2014-03-01 04:52:08 <rasmuzen> sorry, the private key for the glass box*
 523 2014-03-01 04:52:37 <CodeShark> in general there is no box that contains all the coins at the end of the day
 524 2014-03-01 04:52:47 <jcorgan> all the glass boxes are public knowledge
 525 2014-03-01 04:53:00 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
 526 2014-03-01 04:53:04 <rasmuzen> or a set of glass boxes that are all associated with a single private key that is only known by the user
 527 2014-03-01 04:53:13 <CodeShark> in general your bitcoins are strewn about a bunch of boxes all over the block chain
 528 2014-03-01 04:53:15 <rasmuzen> (but they don't know there's more than one)
 529 2014-03-01 04:53:16 <CodeShark> at any given moment
 530 2014-03-01 04:53:17 <jcorgan> it is only the private keys that open them to store bitcoin or open them to retrieve them that must be secured
 531 2014-03-01 04:53:45 <rasmuzen> right, but I control where they're stored once they are put into a glass box that I know about
 532 2014-03-01 04:53:51 _ImI_ has joined
 533 2014-03-01 04:53:58 <CodeShark> no, miners are the ones who determine that
 534 2014-03-01 04:54:12 <jcorgan> and where and how those keys are generated and stored (user's machine?, web server? elsewhere?) that is the very first thing you need to decide
 535 2014-03-01 04:54:19 <CodeShark> miners are the ones who stick your boxes into the block chain
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 538 2014-03-01 04:54:57 <CodeShark> the wallet itself doesn't really care about where it's stored - it just cares whether or not it exists and whether or not it's been opened
 539 2014-03-01 04:55:23 <CodeShark> it might care about how long ago it was stored
 540 2014-03-01 04:55:30 <CodeShark> the older, the more secure
 541 2014-03-01 04:55:32 <rasmuzen> are you guys typically on here? I gotta run but this is really educational for me
 542 2014-03-01 04:55:34 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
 543 2014-03-01 04:55:45 [7] has joined
 544 2014-03-01 04:55:56 <rasmuzen> and I think I'm really close to finally getting the answer I came here for
 545 2014-03-01 04:55:57 <rasmuzen> haha
 546 2014-03-01 04:55:59 <jcorgan> there are many people typically on here that can answer your questions, so if we aren't someone else should be able to help you
 547 2014-03-01 04:56:53 <rasmuzen> gmaxwell: codeshark: jcorgan: alright, thank you so much guys. cheers.
 548 2014-03-01 04:56:54 <jcorgan> i can't emphasize enough, however, that the most critical design aspect of a service you are wanting to create is how the private keys get generated and stored
 549 2014-03-01 04:57:19 <rasmuzen> there would only be a single private key
 550 2014-03-01 04:57:30 <rasmuzen> and it would be *effectively* generated on client side
 551 2014-03-01 04:57:33 <jrick> bad bad bad bad
 552 2014-03-01 04:57:38 <rasmuzen> why
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 554 2014-03-01 04:57:48 <jrick> you need private keys for each address
 555 2014-03-01 04:57:58 <CodeShark> if you want to use a single master key, I highly recommend you look into deterministic keychain generation
 556 2014-03-01 04:58:04 <rasmuzen> why do I need more than one address
 557 2014-03-01 04:58:09 <jrick> privacy
 558 2014-03-01 04:58:24 <rasmuzen> is it bad to tell people your public address?
 559 2014-03-01 04:58:32 <rasmuzen> for a glass box where coins are stored
 560 2014-03-01 04:58:45 <CodeShark> it's bad to use the word "address" in this context, period :p
 561 2014-03-01 04:58:53 <jrick> maybe, once you spend from an address the pubkey is revealed (before then, the only thing public is the pubkey hash)
 562 2014-03-01 04:59:03 <rasmuzen> hah
 563 2014-03-01 04:59:16 <jrick> but if you send change back to the same address you know who is the recipient and who was the sender
 564 2014-03-01 04:59:47 <rasmuzen> what's so wrong with having a single private key and having all your glass boxes locked with that private key?
 565 2014-03-01 05:00:02 <rasmuzen> then people send to the pubkey of that private key
 566 2014-03-01 05:00:11 <jrick> you can encrypt all your private keys with the same secret
 567 2014-03-01 05:00:19 <jcorgan> it reduces the privacy of all the other people who send bitcoin to that address
 568 2014-03-01 05:00:34 <rasmuzen> what if I don't care who's sending to me?
 569 2014-03-01 05:00:43 <rasmuzen> then does it matter?
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 571 2014-03-01 05:00:50 <CodeShark> rasmuzen, it is generally recommended to issue a different receiving address for each payment - the only significant exception right now is donation addresses
 572 2014-03-01 05:00:50 <jcorgan> the other people who send to you might care
 573 2014-03-01 05:01:06 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: why would they care
 574 2014-03-01 05:01:51 <jrick> if some controversial site was taking donations and I donated to them I wouldn't want others to know that
 575 2014-03-01 05:01:52 <jcorgan> bad guy A sends you bitcoin to an address, now everyone else who sends bitcoin to that address are one hop away in an investigation of bad buy A
 576 2014-03-01 05:01:56 <CodeShark> rasmuzen, you can either encrypt your keys with the same secret as jrick says  - or you can use a deterministic keychain
 577 2014-03-01 05:02:09 <jrick> CodeShark: you can do both
 578 2014-03-01 05:02:30 <jrick> in fact you can encrypt the private keys and chain pubkeys
 579 2014-03-01 05:02:32 <CodeShark> you can use multiple deterministic keychains and encrypt the master keys with the same secret :)
 580 2014-03-01 05:02:33 <jrick> (armory does that)
 581 2014-03-01 05:02:34 <CodeShark> sure, why not?
 582 2014-03-01 05:02:38 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 583 2014-03-01 05:02:41 <rasmuzen> well I'm not doing sketchy things, I'm just running a bank system basically, why would anyone care if who they send money to is public?
 584 2014-03-01 05:03:03 <jcorgan> it's not about you
 585 2014-03-01 05:03:22 <jcorgan> by reusing addresses, you provide a linkage between everyone spending to you
 586 2014-03-01 05:03:57 TheBison has quit (Quit: TheBison)
 587 2014-03-01 05:03:59 <rasmuzen> and people don't want other people to know who their spending to
 588 2014-03-01 05:04:17 <jcorgan> that could be one reason someone wouldn't like it
 589 2014-03-01 05:04:22 debiantoruser has joined
 590 2014-03-01 05:04:24 <rasmuzen> is there another ?
 591 2014-03-01 05:04:31 <gmaxwell> rasmuzen: e.g. because of address reuse your customers can see what you pay your suppliers, and what each other pay. Your competition can see your prices and sales volume. In personal use your landlord can see what your income is, and the mugger who works part time at the coffee shop can figure out how much he can earn if it mugs you.
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 593 2014-03-01 05:05:35 <rasmuzen> I see, really gotta run, thanks a ton guys, I'll be back :)
 594 2014-03-01 05:05:42 <jcorgan> take care
 595 2014-03-01 05:07:04 <todamoon> hola
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 597 2014-03-01 05:07:37 <olalonde> good morning / afternoon / evening
 598 2014-03-01 05:07:58 <jcorgan> it's nice sometimes to be able to educate an intelligent but uninformed person, with them actually listening and digesting what you are telling them.  so rare :)
 599 2014-03-01 05:08:26 <fanquake> Anyone building master with QT 5.2?
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 693 2014-03-01 07:52:41 <wumpus> fanquake: yes
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 696 2014-03-01 07:54:16 <fanquake> wumpus compiling fine? Last time I checked 5.2.1 was giving me trouble.
 697 2014-03-01 07:54:27 <wumpus> works fine for me
 698 2014-03-01 07:54:44 <wumpus> I only test ubuntu linux and windows (through gitian) though
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 700 2014-03-01 07:55:48 <wumpus> hm windows gitian dependencies are 5.2.0, not 5.2.1, so not sure about .1
 701 2014-03-01 07:55:51 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
 702 2014-03-01 07:55:55 <fanquake> No worries, I'll try building again this arvo.
 703 2014-03-01 07:56:09 <wumpus> what platform?
 704 2014-03-01 07:56:27 <fanquake> osx 10.8.5
 705 2014-03-01 07:56:38 <wumpus> ohhh osx, gavin is having big trouble with that too
 706 2014-03-01 07:57:01 giustoXricordarl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 707 2014-03-01 07:57:10 <fanquake> with QT specifically?
 708 2014-03-01 07:57:14 <wumpus> as it look now we're going to ship the OSX build against qt4
 709 2014-03-01 07:57:16 <wumpus> any qt5
 710 2014-03-01 07:57:25 <fanquake> :(
 711 2014-03-01 07:57:34 <wumpus> nothing deep, just some build system issue
 712 2014-03-01 07:57:55 <fanquake> Just tried compiling now with 5.2.1, I see
 713 2014-03-01 07:57:58 <fanquake> In file included from ./../paymentserver.h:34:
 714 2014-03-01 07:57:59 <fanquake> ../../../src/qt/paymentrequestplus.h:12:10: fatal error: 'QByteArray' file not found
 715 2014-03-01 07:58:12 <wumpus> that's a problem in the pkgconfig files IIRC
 716 2014-03-01 07:58:22 <wumpus> the include path is not correct
 717 2014-03-01 07:58:44 <wumpus> I remember someone was going to file an upstream issue for that, not sure if that happened
 718 2014-03-01 07:59:35 <fanquake> hmm ok. I'll take a look
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 723 2014-03-01 08:03:53 <jcrubino> how can I uncompress a hex_compressed public key?
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 737 2014-03-01 08:12:17 <wumpus> by computing the y coordinate for the EC point, usually your crypto lib will handle this, why do you want to do this manually?
 738 2014-03-01 08:17:08 <jcrubino> wumpus: I am working on multisig and would like to be able to sue what ever format the user inputs
 739 2014-03-01 08:17:21 <jcrubino> be able to use
 740 2014-03-01 08:17:49 oneginlaptop has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 741 2014-03-01 08:18:41 <jcrubino> can bitcoinjs do this?
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 743 2014-03-01 08:19:08 <wumpus> this topic describes the maths behind it https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=162805
 744 2014-03-01 08:19:36 <wumpus> w/ openssl you can simply use EC_KEY_set_conv_form to change the key representation
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 749 2014-03-01 08:25:54 <jcrubino> thanks
 750 2014-03-01 08:28:14 <jcrubino> the bitcointalk thread is a gem
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 801 2014-03-01 09:31:52 <CodeShark> been thinking a lot about BIP0032, wondering whether it might not be a good idea to use two separate child functions - one for constructing signing keys, another for derivation, so we can keep these two things separate
 802 2014-03-01 09:32:23 <CodeShark> right now, each HD key is dual-use - it can either serve to as a signing key or as a derivation key
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 804 2014-03-01 09:33:50 <CodeShark> this means that in practice, each node is either a leaf in the derivation tree (but a parent to signing keys) or is a nonleaf in the derivation tree (but generates no signing keys directly)
 805 2014-03-01 09:34:29 <CodeShark> or you can mix these two functions within the same generation, but it makes things much more complicated and error prone when developing applications
 806 2014-03-01 09:34:54 <wumpus> well let's not make BIP0032 even more complicated, even right now people are implementing subsets at most
 807 2014-03-01 09:35:10 <CodeShark> one of the reasons it's so complicated to use, IMHO, is because this distinction is not made clearly
 808 2014-03-01 09:35:27 <CodeShark> I've been racking my brain trying to make good use of the H part of HD
 809 2014-03-01 09:35:45 <CodeShark> and I still can't really come up with a good core data model
 810 2014-03-01 09:36:25 <CodeShark> by splitting up these two functions, it's much easier to make good use of the H because you can always keep adding deeper derivation layers to any node even if you've already been using the node to generate signing keys
 811 2014-03-01 09:36:41 <wumpus> yeah in retrospect we should have went with a BIP for the D (just private, hardened derivation) first, and then add the H optionally for people that need it
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 813 2014-03-01 09:37:28 <CodeShark> trying to find a good workaround to this issue
 814 2014-03-01 09:37:40 <CodeShark> you could preallocate a certain range, I suppose
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 816 2014-03-01 09:37:57 <CodeShark> i.e. only the first half of the children will be used for signing keys, the rest are used for derivation
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 818 2014-03-01 09:38:30 <CodeShark> 2 billion signing keys should still probably be sufficient for most applications
 819 2014-03-01 09:38:40 <CodeShark> or actually, sorry, one billion
 820 2014-03-01 09:39:03 <CodeShark> or I guess you could allocate more to signing keys
 821 2014-03-01 09:39:31 <CodeShark> problem is that unless we standardize this, interoperability might be an issue
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 824 2014-03-01 09:40:46 <CodeShark> and it's a pain that signing keys can also be used as derivation keys
 825 2014-03-01 09:41:24 <CodeShark> would be nice when given an extkey to know it is a node and not a signing key
 826 2014-03-01 09:42:07 <CodeShark> perhaps we could still develop a BIP for the D part
 827 2014-03-01 09:42:29 <CodeShark> and keep BIP0032 exclusive to generating derivation trees and not signing keys
 828 2014-03-01 09:44:43 <CodeShark> the way I see it, real-world organizational hierarchies are apt to change and grow organically - as such, it is near impossible to get the organizational structure correct when first creating an account
 829 2014-03-01 09:45:30 <CodeShark> the more that the organizational hierarchy is mixed up with individual signing key generation, the less flexible the structure becomes
 830 2014-03-01 09:47:20 <CodeShark> say you create an organization - at first it's just you - so you just have a single node that creates signing keys. Then you create two separate departments in your organization - so you simply branch off the root node. the signing keys you had initially created have no bearing on this decision at all
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 832 2014-03-01 09:47:55 <CodeShark> you don't need to plan for creating two departments up front
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 835 2014-03-01 09:50:58 <CodeShark> with the current approach, the workaround might be to always reserve the first child strictly for node derivation and always make node derivations two generations
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 837 2014-03-01 09:51:07 <CodeShark> but that seems ugly :)
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 839 2014-03-01 09:51:25 <CodeShark> would be much nicer to have a solid D implementation that's seeded with the node
 840 2014-03-01 09:52:13 <CodeShark> and we can still do it, wumpus :)
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 843 2014-03-01 09:55:18 <CodeShark> the issue isn't really whether H is optional - but the fact that the current approach requires deciding up front what your organizational structure will look like
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 846 2014-03-01 09:56:01 <CodeShark> this is what makes the current approach (without some workaround) essentially unworkable for usabilitywise
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 850 2014-03-01 09:58:25 <CodeShark> the workaround of always reserving a particular child exclusively for hierarchichal derivation faces the further complication that a child with a particular index has a tiny but finite probability of being invalid :)
 851 2014-03-01 09:59:26 <CodeShark> it would be nice for the D part to ensure that the map between the integers and the signing keys is always well-defined
 852 2014-03-01 10:00:04 <CodeShark> otherwise, trying to figure out what the nth key in the sequence is technically requires going through all the previous keys
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 854 2014-03-01 10:00:13 <CodeShark> unless you're willing to chance it :)
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 857 2014-03-01 10:02:29 <CodeShark> for the hierarchy, this isn't as big an issue as generally speaking you won't be dealing in thousands upon thousands of children at each level - and the association between a department and a particular node needs to be documented and indexed somewhere anyhow
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 859 2014-03-01 10:02:53 <CodeShark> but signing keys need to be generated on the fly, on demand, and in large numbers
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 868 2014-03-01 10:24:09 <wumpus> right, there are lots of ways a real world hierarchy could work -- to be honest I think we first need a few examples of people actually using the hierarchical part, it feels to be like classical overdesign, remember that most wallets at this point don't even support determinism yet
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 871 2014-03-01 10:28:09 <CodeShark> I'm trying to be one of those first few examples - this isn't just hypothetical stuff - I have a real product using this right now
 872 2014-03-01 10:28:45 <CodeShark> and I can tell you that the hierarchical part is a pain to manage from a usability standpoint if it's mixed with the deterministic signing keys
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 874 2014-03-01 10:29:47 <wumpus> that's because you are the first to get there
 875 2014-03-01 10:30:48 <wumpus> it makes sense to adapt BIP0032 (or create new BIP even) after there are a few real, useable implementations
 876 2014-03-01 10:31:01 <wumpus> this is happening with the payment request stuff too
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 878 2014-03-01 10:33:25 <wumpus> I suggest writing a post to the mailing list
 879 2014-03-01 10:34:14 <wumpus> I don't think all wallet authors frequent here
 880 2014-03-01 10:34:31 <Jere_Jones> What is the use case for so many signing keys?
 881 2014-03-01 10:36:11 <wumpus> lots of transactions
 882 2014-03-01 10:37:37 <Jere_Jones> Oh. I was thinking message signing. That makes MUCH more sense.
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 886 2014-03-01 10:40:38 <wumpus> after all if you handle things properly for every invoice / change transaction you need a new key (multiple keys if you use some scheme to break up coins)
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 892 2014-03-01 10:43:25 <Jere_Jones> It was my misunderstanding. I thought he wanted different keys for performing transactions and signing messages. Which made no sense to me. Signing as in signing transactions is completely understandable.
 893 2014-03-01 10:45:46 <wumpus> right
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 937 2014-03-01 11:41:28 <chichov> is there any lower bound on the target? (Bits field)
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 939 2014-03-01 11:42:26 <chichov> according to the wiki it's 0x008000, but there seems to be a byte missing and when plugged into the formula it results in 1/2
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 941 2014-03-01 11:46:35 <chichov> it seems rather that 0x03000001 could be a valid lower bound, as it would result in 0x1
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1039 2014-03-01 14:23:19 <gavinandresen> wumpus jgarzik sipa : I'm going to tag v0.9.0rc2 and create a 0.9.0 branch, our 0.9.0 milestone issues list is empty
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1045 2014-03-01 14:29:59 <Aurigae> should bitcoind be configured with "./configure --enable-hardening" in a production environment?
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1047 2014-03-01 14:31:16 <gavinandresen> Aurigae: yes
1048 2014-03-01 14:31:22 <Aurigae> thx :)
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1051 2014-03-01 14:32:03 <gavinandresen> Aurigae: … just don't let --enable-hardening give you a false sense of security, if we've done our jobs correctly --enable-hardening does exactly nothing.
1052 2014-03-01 14:33:14 <Aurigae> kk
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1069 2014-03-01 15:01:34 <Persopolis> gents, --enable-profiling doesn't seem to be working any more - is that intentional
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1075 2014-03-01 15:07:33 <Goonie> Has 0.9.0rc switched to mBTC by default? If not, is there a specific reason or is it just that nobody supplied a pull req?
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1079 2014-03-01 15:10:20 <wumpus> gavinandresen: ACK
1080 2014-03-01 15:10:43 <wumpus> Goonie: nope, no unit switches by default
1081 2014-03-01 15:11:01 <gavinandresen> wumpus: tag pushed, branch created
1082 2014-03-01 15:11:02 <wumpus> Goonie: no one can ever agree on that anyway
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1084 2014-03-01 15:11:29 <gavinandresen> wumpus: I'll start me some gitian-building in a couple minutes
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1088 2014-03-01 15:13:13 <wumpus> ok I'm building too
1089 2014-03-01 15:16:35 <Luke-Jr> any reason the gitian Mac target wasn't merged?
1090 2014-03-01 15:17:35 <gavinandresen> what gitian mac target?
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1095 2014-03-01 15:19:30 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: the one cfields finished, to produce Mac DMGs with gitian
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1097 2014-03-01 15:21:00 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: I'm not seeing a pull request… I seem to recall it relied on some maybe-not-well-supported bits and pieces to work
1098 2014-03-01 15:21:33 <Luke-Jr> hrm, I recall the latter being fixed up at least
1099 2014-03-01 15:21:58 <gavinandresen> ok, my memory is famously bad for that kind of detail
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1101 2014-03-01 15:22:03 <Luke-Jr> he's not on IRC anymore, wonder if warren can get in touch with him
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1103 2014-03-01 15:22:25 <gavinandresen> I exchanged email with cfields last night, he said he'd wake up around now-ish....
1104 2014-03-01 15:22:32 <Luke-Jr> ok
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1117 2014-03-01 15:29:08 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: there's https://github.com/theuni/osx-cross-depends, AFAIK the last and still unsolved problem was getting a deterministic DMG
1118 2014-03-01 15:29:46 <sipa> gavinandresen: ack
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1121 2014-03-01 15:31:47 <gavinandresen> wumpus sipa:  along with the general "February was a very bad month for Bitcoin" … the Windows code signing certificate re-issue process is still stuck in certificate authority verification purgatory
1122 2014-03-01 15:32:09 <wumpus> bleh, well we'll survive a RC without it
1123 2014-03-01 15:32:18 <gavinandresen> yup
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1160 2014-03-01 16:10:34 <gavinandresen> wumpus: our linux builds match
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1183 2014-03-01 16:36:37 <abrkn> is weilu on irc?
1184 2014-03-01 16:36:43 <cfields> gavinandresen: still around?
1185 2014-03-01 16:37:31 <cfields> gavinandresen: most of the hackery for osx cross buliding involves building qt itself
1186 2014-03-01 16:37:47 <CodeShark> cfields, what about building qt on OS X and then just copying over the binaries?
1187 2014-03-01 16:37:51 <cfields> if the official binaries were used instead, the process would be pretty clean
1188 2014-03-01 16:38:16 <CodeShark> I guess you're after a deterministic build of the libraries as well
1189 2014-03-01 16:38:40 InsiderJoe has joined
1190 2014-03-01 16:38:46 <cfields> CodeShark: doesn't really help for 2 reasons. 1: it's as much of a pain to build on osx. 2: one of the major goals is to be able to build without the need for osx.
1191 2014-03-01 16:38:49 <CodeShark> although you have to draw the line at some point, presumably - you're not going to build libc++ from scratch, no?
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1193 2014-03-01 16:39:10 <sipa> i
1194 2014-03-01 16:39:14 <sipa> i'd say: ideally, yes
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1197 2014-03-01 16:39:24 <cfields> CodeShark: well, the current osx qt5 build process uses the binaries, so there's no difference there
1198 2014-03-01 16:39:42 <CodeShark> sipa! I found a problem with BIP0032 :)
1199 2014-03-01 16:39:44 <sipa> it's not impossible to envision a deterministic build process on gentoo or something
1200 2014-03-01 16:39:52 <sipa> CodeShark: regarding your mail?
1201 2014-03-01 16:40:02 <xabbix> are there any known performance issues with wallets that contains large amounts of accounts?
1202 2014-03-01 16:40:03 <CodeShark> yes
1203 2014-03-01 16:40:24 <CodeShark> hierarchical nodes are folders, signing keys are files - they coexist on the same filesystem but have distinct properties
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1205 2014-03-01 16:40:32 <CodeShark> you cannot create subfiles in files
1206 2014-03-01 16:40:43 <gavinandresen> cfields: I'm almost around… about to disappear for lunch for a bit.  currently gitian building windows in a slow VirtualBox VM...
1207 2014-03-01 16:40:51 <cfields> sipa: it already builds a good bit of llvm for the toolchain, libc++ wouldn't be a stretch
1208 2014-03-01 16:42:07 <gavinandresen> cfields: fetching the official binary for OSX deterministic builds would be OK with me, deterministic builds are a definite improvement and perfect-enemy-of-the-better and all that
1209 2014-03-01 16:42:10 <sipa> CodeShark: from bip32:
1210 2014-03-01 16:42:12 <sipa> It is not advised to represent this data in base58 format though, as it may be interpreted as an address that way (and wallet software is not required to accept payment to the chain key itself).
1211 2014-03-01 16:42:28 <CodeShark> it's not just a matter of representation, though - it's a matter of intrinsic structure
1212 2014-03-01 16:42:41 <CodeShark> you don't want to create new branches off the same depth where you already have signing keys
1213 2014-03-01 16:42:47 <sipa> agree
1214 2014-03-01 16:43:04 <cfields> gavinandresen: in that case, the cross build is probably a reasonable way to go then
1215 2014-03-01 16:43:14 <CodeShark> and in general you're going to start with a very simple hierarchy (perhaps just a single parent) and then later extend it by adding branches
1216 2014-03-01 16:43:22 <sipa> CodeShark: i don't think so
1217 2014-03-01 16:43:25 <CodeShark> that's the most typical practical use case scenario I can think of
1218 2014-03-01 16:43:30 <cfields> gavinandresen: with the goal of building qt by hand as a next step
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1220 2014-03-01 16:43:37 <CodeShark> generally speaking you will not know the structure of your organization at the beginning
1221 2014-03-01 16:43:37 <sipa> CodeShark: i don't really consider the wallet itself to be hierarchical
1222 2014-03-01 16:43:44 <sipa> CodeShark: just the derivation code
1223 2014-03-01 16:44:14 <CodeShark> right, what I'm thinking is having two distinct types of derivation - one for child nodes and one for child signing keys
1224 2014-03-01 16:44:35 <CodeShark> the signing keys are just a deterministic sequence generated from the node
1225 2014-03-01 16:44:44 <gavinandresen> wumpus: my win32 build doesn't match yours, but I've got inputs that don't match. I'll rebuild those and try again….
1226 2014-03-01 16:44:51 <sipa> CodeShark: well, not going to change the specification now
1227 2014-03-01 16:45:03 <CodeShark> by keeping the two separate, it means it's always possible to branch off from any node even if you've already created signing keys at that level
1228 2014-03-01 16:45:18 <CodeShark> it makes the H part of HD practical
1229 2014-03-01 16:45:41 <CodeShark> no need to change the spec, sipa
1230 2014-03-01 16:45:50 <CodeShark> we can keep BIP0032 as it is for the hierarchical part
1231 2014-03-01 16:45:51 GMP has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1232 2014-03-01 16:45:58 <CodeShark> we just need a separate signing key generation function
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1235 2014-03-01 16:47:23 <sipa> that would be a pretty invasive change, imho
1236 2014-03-01 16:47:30 <sipa> and i understand your concern
1237 2014-03-01 16:47:40 <sipa> but i'm not in favor of changing things now
1238 2014-03-01 16:48:03 <CodeShark> well, I'm not happy with the workarounds I've come up with…and this issue is really going to make it hard for app developers to use HD wallets fully
1239 2014-03-01 16:48:16 <sipa> i don't really see the problem: you use every node just once
1240 2014-03-01 16:48:24 <sipa> either you use it as a key, or you use it to build a new chain
1241 2014-03-01 16:48:39 <sipa> it would have been nice to make that more explicit, agree
1242 2014-03-01 16:48:44 <CodeShark> it becomes extremely problematic once you start doing things like multisigs :)
1243 2014-03-01 16:48:47 <CodeShark> believe me, I'm trying hard
1244 2014-03-01 16:49:14 <CodeShark> with multisigs, you want an easy way to establish correspondences between keys on different parallel trees
1245 2014-03-01 16:49:19 <sipa> multisig(2,3,chain1,chain2,chain3)
1246 2014-03-01 16:49:25 <sipa> yes
1247 2014-03-01 16:49:51 <sipa> which means you can't branch off those again
1248 2014-03-01 16:49:58 <sipa> but that's why there's an account level above
1249 2014-03-01 16:50:19 <CodeShark> then you're stuck - imagine if every time you wrote a regular file to your file system you were prevented from creating folders in at the same level
1250 2014-03-01 16:50:26 <CodeShark> that's what I'm dealing with now :)
1251 2014-03-01 16:50:41 <CodeShark> I don't really know how deep my hierarchy will go or whether I'll need new folders right now
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1255 2014-03-01 16:50:45 <CodeShark> but I still want to write files
1256 2014-03-01 16:50:56 <CodeShark> I want to have the option to create subdirectories in the future
1257 2014-03-01 16:51:05 <CodeShark> THAT is what gives the hierarchical file system its power
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1259 2014-03-01 16:51:26 <sipa> filesystems already have the problem that you can't create a file and a directory with the same name
1260 2014-03-01 16:51:54 <CodeShark> yes, but that's something of a different problem
1261 2014-03-01 16:51:56 <sipa> and if you designate some directory as "everything in here is going to be files with a particular purpose", well, then yes you can't create subdirectories in it
1262 2014-03-01 16:52:12 <CodeShark> with signing keys, you want regularity in their generation
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1264 2014-03-01 16:52:22 <sipa> you're essentially turning that directory into a superfile, rather than an actual part of the hierarchy
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1266 2014-03-01 16:52:30 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: I'm only vaguely paying attention.. but can't you just create new branches/hierarchy and then empty out the old wallets (by sweeping funds)?  Not ideal, but that seems workable.
1267 2014-03-01 16:52:35 <xabbix> sipa wumpus gavinandresen: are there any known performance issues with wallets that contains large amounts of accounts? I'm talking about over 10K accounts, anyone has experienced any issues?
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1269 2014-03-01 16:52:47 <sipa> xabbix: only number of transactions matters
1270 2014-03-01 16:52:50 <sipa> xabbix: also, don't use accounts
1271 2014-03-01 16:52:57 <xabbix> sipa: Why not?
1272 2014-03-01 16:53:02 <sipa> many known problems
1273 2014-03-01 16:53:07 <xabbix> oh, was not aware. ok
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1275 2014-03-01 16:53:37 <xabbix> thanks, is there any where I can read about the performance issues with a lot of transactions?
1276 2014-03-01 16:53:42 <CodeShark> gavinandresen: you still can't reclaim the hierarchy level - you'd have to essentially rebuild entire portions of your tree
1277 2014-03-01 16:53:43 <xabbix> any documented benchmark etc?
1278 2014-03-01 16:53:53 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: yes…. and….
1279 2014-03-01 16:53:55 <sipa> xabbix: just pretty much every wallet operation scales in the number of transactions
1280 2014-03-01 16:54:01 suhailski has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1281 2014-03-01 16:54:03 <CodeShark> doesn't anyone else find this a bit ugly? :)
1282 2014-03-01 16:54:10 <sipa> gavinandresen: that's not really the issue
1283 2014-03-01 16:54:11 <gavinandresen> xabbix: having documented benchmarks would be great, you should do that.
1284 2014-03-01 16:54:29 <sipa> CodeShark: you just have to be careful, but i don't see how you can't solve that by managing cleanly
1285 2014-03-01 16:54:49 <xabbix> gavinandresen, is there any way for me to do it without spamming the blockchain? I guess I would need to create quite a lot of transactions..
1286 2014-03-01 16:54:50 <sipa> CodeShark: for example, you could have a rule: only have actual keys in */0/...
1287 2014-03-01 16:54:51 <CodeShark> sipa: about the best workaround I have right now is to alternate generations
1288 2014-03-01 16:55:09 <CodeShark> you always reserve one child for hierarchical derivation, use the rest for signing keys
1289 2014-03-01 16:55:19 <CodeShark> then that one child is used as the parent of the next generation
1290 2014-03-01 16:55:39 <gavinandresen> sipa: I thought the issue was an organizational change, that requires a different hierarchy structure for the wallet.  Seems to me even worst case of generating a new master key and completely different hierarchy wouldn't be that terrible.  And you'd want a way of rotating the master key every once in a while anyway, any system that assume that the master key can never ever be compromised would be a broken system.
1291 2014-03-01 16:56:03 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1292 2014-03-01 16:56:04 <CodeShark> this workaround allows for contiguous signing keys (or at least with very high probability) always
1293 2014-03-01 16:56:06 <sipa> gavinandresen: that's a good point
1294 2014-03-01 16:56:37 <cfields> gavinandresen: need anything from me before i head out?
1295 2014-03-01 16:56:38 <sipa> CodeShark: ok, solved :)
1296 2014-03-01 16:56:44 suhailski has joined
1297 2014-03-01 16:57:10 <gavinandresen> cfields: can you whip up a 0.9.0rc2 Bitcoin-Qt.app before you leave and put it somehwere I can test it?
1298 2014-03-01 16:57:14 <gavinandresen> (qt5-based)
1299 2014-03-01 16:57:31 <gavinandresen> cfields: also: what OSX version and XCode version are you building with?
1300 2014-03-01 16:57:34 <cfields> gavinandresen: i linked one in my last mail
1301 2014-03-01 16:57:53 <cfields> oh, from tag you mean?
1302 2014-03-01 16:58:05 <gavinandresen> cfields: yes, from tag
1303 2014-03-01 16:58:28 <cfields> ok
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1307 2014-03-01 16:59:37 <cfields> osx 10.6.8. Xcode 3.2.6.
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1329 2014-03-01 17:17:55 <cfields> gavinandresen: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zuq4l7z7g5zx6ts/Bitcoin-Qt-0.9-rc2.dmg
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1339 2014-03-01 17:27:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Shavua tov, everyone
1340 2014-03-01 17:27:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I see rc2 is tagged.
1341 2014-03-01 17:28:27 WKNiGHT has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1342 2014-03-01 17:28:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There's a new 0.9.0 branch? Why?
1343 2014-03-01 17:29:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Are there already changes being merged for 0.10?
1344 2014-03-01 17:29:26 <sipa> no
1345 2014-03-01 17:29:47 <sipa> a new 0.9 branch?
1346 2014-03-01 17:30:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|From https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
1347 2014-03-01 17:30:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|   f30fbbf..d6e0e17  master     -> origin/master
1348 2014-03-01 17:30:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo| * [new branch]      0.9.0      -> origin/0.9.0
1349 2014-03-01 17:30:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo| * [new tag]         v0.9.0rc2  -> v0.9.0rc2
1350 2014-03-01 17:30:23 <sipa> oh, seems there is
1351 2014-03-01 17:30:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Github says, "This branch is 0 commits ahead and 0 commits behind master"
1352 2014-03-01 17:30:50 <sipa> ok
1353 2014-03-01 17:30:55 <gavinandresen> new branch 'cause jgarzik wanted one.
1354 2014-03-01 17:31:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What's this new setup.py in the root of the tree?
1355 2014-03-01 17:31:48 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: that'd be a mistake....
1356 2014-03-01 17:31:56 <sipa> that doesn't seem to belong thrre
1357 2014-03-01 17:32:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|heh
1358 2014-03-01 17:32:26 <gavinandresen> artifact of git subtree that I probably messed up, because I never used git subtree before....
1359 2014-03-01 17:32:32 draino has joined
1360 2014-03-01 17:32:44 <gavinandresen> (to pull in python-bitcoinrpc for regression tests in qa/rpc-tests)
1361 2014-03-01 17:32:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I guess the jsonrpc and bitcoinrpc dirs are also mistakes?
1362 2014-03-01 17:33:47 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: yes, that should all be qa/rpc-tests/python-bitcoinrpc/
1363 2014-03-01 17:34:12 pierreatwork has joined
1364 2014-03-01 17:34:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(also, is the Mac gbuild thing ready for 0.9.0, or will it wait for later?)
1365 2014-03-01 17:34:44 <gavinandresen> mac gitian building?  will wait for later
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1367 2014-03-01 17:35:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay
1368 2014-03-01 17:35:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'll gbuild now booted into my Ubuntu machine
1369 2014-03-01 17:36:00 onu2 has joined
1370 2014-03-01 17:36:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And then tomorrow I'll gbuild in a VM with LXC, and upload my sigs
1371 2014-03-01 17:38:09 <cfields> gavinandresen: do you want me to move forward with the cross build for osx, aiming for a .9 build? i'm all for it, but rc3 is a scary place for that kind of change.
1372 2014-03-01 17:38:37 <gavinandresen> cfields: move forward, yes, but aim for 0.9.1
1373 2014-03-01 17:38:53 <gavinandresen> … hopefully we won't need a 0.9.0rc3
1374 2014-03-01 17:39:23 <onu2> im storing wallet.dat (which is encrypted with a strong passphrase) in an encrypted truecrypt container. this is overkill, right?
1375 2014-03-01 17:39:51 <cfields> ok
1376 2014-03-01 17:39:59 <sipa> onu2: an encrypted wallet.dat only protects private keys
1377 2014-03-01 17:40:15 <sipa> onu2: someone finding the wallet file may still see your addresses and transactions
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1379 2014-03-01 17:40:38 <cfields> gavinandresen: is there a plan for 0.9.1? or just whenever it proves necessary?
1380 2014-03-01 17:40:40 <onu2> sipa, but cant do any transactions..
1381 2014-03-01 17:40:42 <sipa> so if you want to protect against that too, then an extra encryption layer may make sense
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1383 2014-03-01 17:41:01 <sipa> but for just protecting your funds, it doesn't add anything
1384 2014-03-01 17:41:12 <onu2> sipa, thanks, i was just being extra paranoid
1385 2014-03-01 17:41:20 <gavinandresen> onu2: if it is a gigabyte-big trucrypt container, then the size can be a deterrent from a remote attacker stealing and then trying to bruteforce it offline, too.
1386 2014-03-01 17:42:06 <gavinandresen> cfields: I'd like 0.9.1 to happen fairly quickly after 0.9.0 (a month or so).
1387 2014-03-01 17:42:15 <gavinandresen> … and then 0.9.2 ...
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1414 2014-03-01 18:13:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3718
1415 2014-03-01 18:13:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why was it 120? o_O
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1427 2014-03-01 18:23:54 <coinz4me> This chan only for the official client?  I have a question about a value in bitcoinj.
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1438 2014-03-01 18:36:58 <dansmith_btc> Hi, if the same utxo is broadcast simultaneously in two diff txs, is it a realistic scenario that one half of network is having one tx in mempool and the other half has another tx in mempool. So now it's all up to the miner's mempool which tx gets included in a block. Am I correct?
1439 2014-03-01 18:38:09 <coinz4me> Not positive here, but IIRC that value is a hash of the contents of the tx, so they would have to be the same tx to have the same value.
1440 2014-03-01 18:38:27 <coinz4me> Oh wait nm just re-read your original.
1441 2014-03-01 18:38:29 <jakov> dansmith_btc yes
1442 2014-03-01 18:38:30 <coinz4me> I'll shut up now.
1443 2014-03-01 18:38:53 <jakov> eventually one will win i.e. be included in a block several levels deep
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1445 2014-03-01 18:40:29 <coinz4me> https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/core/src/main/java/com/google/bitcoin/params/MainNetParams.java contains a value dumpedPrivateKeyHeader = 128;  Anyone know where they got that value from?
1446 2014-03-01 18:40:54 <coinz4me> When I dump a priv key I don't actually see 128 anywhere.
1447 2014-03-01 18:41:14 WKNiGHT- is now known as WKNiGHT
1448 2014-03-01 18:41:33 <dansmith_btc> So my option on how to proceed without waiting for a confirmation would be to query bc.i's double-spend attempts page after 10 secs or so after the broadcast. If there were no double-spend attempts seen within 10 secs then all node's mempool should be the same.
1449 2014-03-01 18:42:53 <jcorgan> dansmith_btc: you may want to consult actual statistics on p2p network propagation; IIRC it was measured over a minute for 95%.
1450 2014-03-01 18:44:37 <jakov> dansmith_btc also the double spender might mine the tx themselves
1451 2014-03-01 18:44:45 <jakov> instead of sending it out, so you'd  never see it
1452 2014-03-01 18:44:51 <jakov> they'd need a lot of hash power but it could be done
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1454 2014-03-01 18:45:58 <dansmith_btc> jakov, agreed, but in my use case the likelihood that an attacker is also the miner is non-existent
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1456 2014-03-01 18:46:12 <jakov> yep, all depends on your circumstances
1457 2014-03-01 18:46:27 <jakov> dont sell your house without waiting for 12 confirmations
1458 2014-03-01 18:46:44 <jakov> sell a coffee as soon as you see the tx propagated out
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1481 2014-03-01 19:05:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'd like to get #3775 merged before 0.9.0 is tagged, if possible. Anyone disagree?
1482 2014-03-01 19:05:47 <andytoshi> dansmith_btc: "just ask bc.i" is NEVER a strategy for making decisions, you will lose money if you believe the things they say
1483 2014-03-01 19:05:57 <andytoshi> dansmith_btc: this has been beaten to death here and on #bitcoin, that's all i'll say about it
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1488 2014-03-01 19:14:59 <kanzure> other than keeping a separate bitcoin.conf, are there any other caveats to running multiple testnets on the same machine?
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1497 2014-03-01 19:27:14 <CodeShark> kanzure, as long as you make sure to assign a different datadir to each one there's no problem
1498 2014-03-01 19:27:40 <kanzure> CodeShark: and is that also in the conf file?
1499 2014-03-01 19:27:47 <kanzure> datadir=something
1500 2014-03-01 19:27:50 <CodeShark> the conf file is in the datadir
1501 2014-03-01 19:28:06 <CodeShark> so if you just specify the datadir as a command line parameter you should be ok
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1505 2014-03-01 19:29:00 <kanzure> CodeShark: what about ports?
1506 2014-03-01 19:29:08 <CodeShark> oh, right :)
1507 2014-03-01 19:29:10 <CodeShark> that too
1508 2014-03-01 19:29:23 <CodeShark> at least if you want to run them at the same time
1509 2014-03-01 19:29:55 <CodeShark> although…gotta check how bitcoind forks the daemon from the cli
1510 2014-03-01 19:30:03 <CodeShark> you might need to give each process a different name
1511 2014-03-01 19:31:21 <kanzure> is there a script in bitcoin.git that does this for testing/development purposes?
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1515 2014-03-01 19:33:51 <gavinandresen> kanzure: see qa/rpc-tests  -- they all create multiple -regtest bitcoinds, with different datadirs and ports
1516 2014-03-01 19:33:59 <kanzure> thank you
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1519 2014-03-01 19:35:25 <CodeShark> ah, no need to give each process a different name - the app detects whether another instance is running based on whether or not the datadir is locked
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1522 2014-03-01 19:36:15 <CodeShark> so bitcoind -datadir=<dir> -port=<port>
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1524 2014-03-01 19:36:55 <kanzure> curious, i would have expected it to read port from the config file
1525 2014-03-01 19:37:06 <CodeShark> oh, actually you can do that
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1528 2014-03-01 19:37:31 <CodeShark> the only thing you cannot set in the config file is the datadir because the datadir is needed to access the config file :)
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1530 2014-03-01 19:39:12 <sipa> actually, i think you can
1531 2014-03-01 19:39:34 <sipa> but you need to specify the path to the config file in that case
1532 2014-03-01 19:39:44 <sipa> (unsure, haven't tested)
1533 2014-03-01 19:40:37 <jcorgan> yes, you can put datadir= in a config file and specificy the config file on the command line
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1536 2014-03-01 19:42:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why does pulltester not detect and skip testing versions that make no code changed?
1537 2014-03-01 19:42:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|changes*
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1539 2014-03-01 19:42:54 <gavinandresen> Anybody else here able to gitian-build? 0.9.0rc2 builds for wumpus and I match, we need more builders....
1540 2014-03-01 19:43:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen: building as we speak
1541 2014-03-01 19:43:15 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: awesome, thanks
1542 2014-03-01 19:43:18 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1543 2014-03-01 19:43:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I just finished rebuilding ass deps
1544 2014-03-01 19:43:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|all*
1545 2014-03-01 19:43:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And they match wumpus's in_manifest
1546 2014-03-01 19:43:59 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: feel free to make pulltester smarter, it is at qa/pull-tester in the tree
1547 2014-03-01 19:44:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|This is booted into Ubuntu, using KVM
1548 2014-03-01 19:44:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Tomorrow I'll build on DO and in a VM using LXC
1549 2014-03-01 19:44:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If I get matches there I'll sign and push
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1567 2014-03-01 19:57:10 <Persopolis> trustno1@all
1568 2014-03-01 19:57:34 <Persopolis> sorry wrong chan
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1592 2014-03-01 20:02:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|micha@micha-Precise-ExtHD:~/GitianBuild/gitian.sigs/0.9.0rc2$ diff -s michagogo/bitcoin-build.assert laanwj/bitcoin-build.assert
1593 2014-03-01 20:02:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Files michagogo/bitcoin-build.assert and laanwj/bitcoin-build.assert are identical
1594 2014-03-01 20:02:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen: ^
1595 2014-03-01 20:02:41 antephialtic has joined
1596 2014-03-01 20:02:54 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: huzzah!
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1601 2014-03-01 20:03:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'll PR tomorrow after I do LXC builds on DO and in a VM
1602 2014-03-01 20:03:30 Adlai has joined
1603 2014-03-01 20:03:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(btw, do you have an opinion on #3775?)
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1614 2014-03-01 20:09:45 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: i tagged #3775 as low-priority improvement. Definitly not serious enough to prevent 0.9.0rc2 from becoming 0.9.0 final
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1616 2014-03-01 20:10:21 <InsiderJoe> gavin
1617 2014-03-01 20:10:26 <InsiderJoe> when will we see bitcoin out of beta?
1618 2014-03-01 20:10:32 <InsiderJoe> like BitcoinQT 1.0.0
1619 2014-03-01 20:10:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|InsiderJoe: probably not anytime soon
1620 2014-03-01 20:10:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|if ever
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1623 2014-03-01 20:11:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen: Yeah, not serious at all :-P
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1625 2014-03-01 20:12:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So if we need an rc3 that'll go in, but if not it'll be in 0.9.1?
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1627 2014-03-01 20:12:36 <gavinandresen> InsiderJoe: we're getting closer, but it is still much too easy for mere mortals to have their bitcoins stolen from a Bitcoin-Qt wallet.
1628 2014-03-01 20:12:50 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: With the vfspent change do we still have the situation where a spend of conflicted change ends up with a conflicted spend and a balance of 0? — if so I have some concern that it might cause funds loss if people discard wallets reading 0 when they really have unspent txouts.
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1631 2014-03-01 20:13:32 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: no, that is fixed-- the second spend will also be conflicted, and won't count in the balance.
1632 2014-03-01 20:14:02 <gavinandresen> (err, I guess "yes, that is fixed")
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1635 2014-03-01 20:15:27 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: great okay, thanks for saving me the time in simulating that again.
1636 2014-03-01 20:15:28 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: #3755 is exactly the type of "noisy" pull request that I don't like, but I'm less tolerant of "lets tidy things up because… well, because they look messy" pull requests that other core devs
1637 2014-03-01 20:16:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen: That other core devs... what?
1638 2014-03-01 20:16:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, did you mean than?
1639 2014-03-01 20:16:36 <gavinandresen> yes, "than other core devs"
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1649 2014-03-01 20:21:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|micha@micha-Precise-ExtHD:~/GitianBuild/gitian.sigs/0.9.0rc2-win$ diff -s laanwj/bitcoin-build.assert michagogo/bitcoin-build.assert
1650 2014-03-01 20:21:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Files laanwj/bitcoin-build.assert and michagogo/bitcoin-build.assert are identical
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1652 2014-03-01 20:23:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|\o/
1653 2014-03-01 20:23:19 djcoin_ has joined
1654 2014-03-01 20:27:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(if anyone cares, I have my bins at http://michagogo.cadoth.net
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1660 2014-03-01 20:31:38 <sipa> dang, did we cross 30 PH/s already :(
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1671 2014-03-01 20:37:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wow, really?
1672 2014-03-01 20:37:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;nethash
1673 2014-03-01 20:37:19 <gribble> 29228257.6809
1674 2014-03-01 20:37:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Not quite
1675 2014-03-01 20:37:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: why :-( ?
1676 2014-03-01 20:37:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|s/-//
1677 2014-03-01 20:37:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;help nethash
1678 2014-03-01 20:37:43 <gribble> (nethash takes no arguments) -- Shows the current estimate for total network hash rate, in Ghps.
1679 2014-03-01 20:39:11 <sipa> ;;nethash
1680 2014-03-01 20:39:11 <gribble> 29228257.6809
1681 2014-03-01 20:39:18 _ImI_ has quit (Client Quit)
1682 2014-03-01 20:39:20 <sipa> ha
1683 2014-03-01 20:39:39 <sipa> well, i adjusted my graphs again to go up to 50 :)
1684 2014-03-01 20:40:29 jogos has joined
1685 2014-03-01 20:41:39 <Persopolis> is there an easy way to do profiling build i.e. -pg
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1698 2014-03-01 20:52:34 <Luke-Jr> saivann_: ping
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1721 2014-03-01 21:23:40 <jordandotdev> hey guys anyone connected to armoryd via JSON-RPC?
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1726 2014-03-01 21:25:32 <droark> Hello. I'm having a little trouble understanding the concept of network-adjusted time (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_timestamp). Can anybody answer a question or two for me?
1727 2014-03-01 21:25:44 <jakov> dont ask to ask
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1729 2014-03-01 21:26:13 skinnkavaj has joined
1730 2014-03-01 21:26:43 <droark> I'm doing this as part of a job assignment where I'm validating the blockchain. If it's not appropriate, that's fine. I'll head to another channel.
1731 2014-03-01 21:27:26 <jakov> just ask what it is you dont understand
1732 2014-03-01 21:27:43 bdhuser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1734 2014-03-01 21:28:38 <droark> I'm not sure what's meant by the following statement: "'Network-adjusted time' is the median of the timestamps returned by all nodes connected to you." Are the timestamps collected upon connection to the nodes? Are they updated periodically? I'd assume so.
1735 2014-03-01 21:29:17 <jakov> they are collected once and your client stores the difference between your time and that nodes time
1736 2014-03-01 21:29:19 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1737 2014-03-01 21:29:40 <droark> Excellent. Thanks.
1738 2014-03-01 21:29:41 <jakov> yes they are collected upon connection
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1741 2014-03-01 21:31:39 <jakov> hmm
1742 2014-03-01 21:31:56 <jakov> i realise sooner or later we're gonna need an update to change the timestamp
1743 2014-03-01 21:32:04 <jakov> unsigned 32 bit only goes up to
1744 2014-03-01 21:32:27 <jakov> year 2106
1745 2014-03-01 21:32:35 <jakov> there will still be unmined bitcoins left
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1747 2014-03-01 21:34:31 <droark> I could swear I read somewhere that there are ways to get around that problem, so long as there's at least one transaction with 58 years or however long a timestamp can cover. I could easily be wrong, though.
1748 2014-03-01 21:34:46 <droark> *68 years.
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1751 2014-03-01 21:36:11 <ft_> maybe here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_timestamp
1752 2014-03-01 21:36:14 <jakov> it will just be changed to a 64 bit number
1753 2014-03-01 21:36:23 paveljanik has joined
1754 2014-03-01 21:36:39 <jakov> otherwise it will overflow back to 1970
1755 2014-03-01 21:38:24 buhbuh has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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1757 2014-03-01 21:39:49 <sipa> jakov: no, we can just define it is a 64-bit number of which only the lowest 32 bits are encoded
1758 2014-03-01 21:40:20 <sipa> jakov: with the extra rule "if a block would go back more than 1 day, it's instead assumed that the higher order 32 bit increment"
1759 2014-03-01 21:40:33 yubrew has joined
1760 2014-03-01 21:40:44 <jakov> still though, wont 64 bits have to be sent over the network when 32 bits were sent earlier?
1761 2014-03-01 21:40:53 <sipa> ...
1762 2014-03-01 21:40:57 <sipa> read what i said
1763 2014-03-01 21:41:04 InsiderJ_ has joined
1764 2014-03-01 21:41:05 <tmgomez> anyone here savi on the stratum mining twisted and the python frontend
1765 2014-03-01 21:41:31 <tmgomez> please PM me
1766 2014-03-01 21:42:59 <jakov> sipa wait so where are those extra 32 bits stored?
1767 2014-03-01 21:43:10 <jakov> or so you lose precision at the lower end
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1769 2014-03-01 21:43:40 <sipa> jakov: the _lower_ 32 bits are always transmitted
1770 2014-03-01 21:43:48 <sipa> jakov: the _higher_ 32 bits are implicit
1771 2014-03-01 21:43:56 <jakov> ah right
1772 2014-03-01 21:44:13 <jakov> and you work out what the higher bits should be by looking at other blocks
1773 2014-03-01 21:44:20 <sipa> if you see a block with a timestamp that is let's say more than 1 year before its parent block, you assume it is 2^32 seconds later
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1775 2014-03-01 21:44:49 <sipa> we could probably do with 16-bit or 24-bit timestamps :)
1776 2014-03-01 21:44:49 <jakov> yes
1777 2014-03-01 21:44:50 <jakov> ok
1778 2014-03-01 21:45:03 coingenuity has joined
1779 2014-03-01 21:45:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;calc 2**16/60/60
1780 2014-03-01 21:45:18 <gribble> 18.2044444444
1781 2014-03-01 21:45:19 Luke-Jr has joined
1782 2014-03-01 21:45:19 <tmgomez> anyone here savi on the stratum mining twisted and the python frontend??
1783 2014-03-01 21:45:36 <kanzure> somewhat. what do you need.
1784 2014-03-01 21:45:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: I think 18 hours is pushing it
1785 2014-03-01 21:46:10 ft_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1787 2014-03-01 21:47:19 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: ok, 20 bits
1788 2014-03-01 21:47:28 Adlai has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1789 2014-03-01 21:47:38 <tmgomez> kanzure you talking to me?
1790 2014-03-01 21:47:47 <kanzure> kinda.
1791 2014-03-01 21:47:49 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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1794 2014-03-01 21:48:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;calc 2**20/60/60
1795 2014-03-01 21:48:58 <gribble> 291.271111111
1796 2014-03-01 21:49:17 zer0def has joined
1797 2014-03-01 21:49:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|A week and a half?
1798 2014-03-01 21:49:44 <sipa> for one block?
1799 2014-03-01 21:50:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: well, with Bitcoin as it is today, very unlikely
1800 2014-03-01 21:50:24 Dickyb0b has joined
1801 2014-03-01 21:50:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But if there's a sudden drop in hashrate...
1802 2014-03-01 21:50:55 <jakov> to go from 10 minutes to a week and a half
1803 2014-03-01 21:51:24 <jakov> many tens of percentage points drop in hashrate
1804 2014-03-01 21:51:26 copumpkin has joined
1805 2014-03-01 21:51:30 <Dickyb0b> which open source mining software could i modify in c++ to an irc based mining bot?
1806 2014-03-01 21:51:33 Ashaman has joined
1807 2014-03-01 21:51:46 <jakov> where does the irc come into it?
1808 2014-03-01 21:52:00 <Dickyb0b> my modify?
1809 2014-03-01 21:52:37 <jakov> cgminer is open source in c++
1810 2014-03-01 21:52:44 <jakov> wonder what the irc is for, you coding a botnet?
1811 2014-03-01 21:52:57 paveljanik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1812 2014-03-01 21:52:57 <jakov> dont bother, cpu and gpus are wont mine much
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1814 2014-03-01 21:53:02 <Dickyb0b> a what?
1815 2014-03-01 21:53:05 <iwilcox> In what sense is your mining bot "based" in IRC?
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1821 2014-03-01 21:53:25 <Dickyb0b> just commads in irc to launch the miner
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1823 2014-03-01 21:54:04 <Dickyb0b> il take alook at cgminer thx
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1825 2014-03-01 21:55:27 <jakov> damn according to wikipedia botnets have really reduced as a problem lately
1826 2014-03-01 21:55:38 <jakov> i guess since tablets and smartphones are being used now
1827 2014-03-01 21:56:29 <Dickyb0b> yeh ive heard about that
1828 2014-03-01 21:56:39 <Dickyb0b> mining secretly on victims pc
1829 2014-03-01 21:57:13 <Dickyb0b> microsoft are catching alot in security updates
1830 2014-03-01 21:57:56 <Aurigae> a 8 or 16 gb ram dependency could have banned botnets long ago
1831 2014-03-01 21:58:03 <Aurigae> lol
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1834 2014-03-01 21:59:08 <jakov> what do you mean Aurigae ?
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1836 2014-03-01 22:00:47 <Dickyb0b> on here which is the file with the c++ source code?
1837 2014-03-01 22:00:49 <Dickyb0b> http://ck.kolivas.org/apps/cgminer
1838 2014-03-01 22:01:06 InsiderJ_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1839 2014-03-01 22:01:24 <Dickyb0b> i downloaded cgminer-4.0.1-windows.7z
1840 2014-03-01 22:01:51 <Dickyb0b> but its just the program that runs
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1844 2014-03-01 22:03:27 <droark> CGMiner: https://github.com/ckolivas/cgminer
1845 2014-03-01 22:03:39 <droark> I assume that's it, anyway. Have never used it.
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1848 2014-03-01 22:04:13 <skinnkavaj> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=494841.0
1849 2014-03-01 22:05:19 <Aurigae> hoax?
1850 2014-03-01 22:05:32 <Aurigae> o0
1851 2014-03-01 22:06:02 Plinker__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1852 2014-03-01 22:06:09 <sipa> looks like bullshit
1853 2014-03-01 22:06:11 rdymac has joined
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1855 2014-03-01 22:06:36 <jakov> Betteridge's law of headlines might apply here
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1860 2014-03-01 22:07:52 <jakov> so looks like its based on the halving the block reward
1861 2014-03-01 22:08:05 <jakov> is done by bit shift right
1862 2014-03-01 22:08:15 <jakov> then it rolls over
1863 2014-03-01 22:08:32 <sipa> lol
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1865 2014-03-01 22:08:44 <jakov> using >>> instead of >> or whatever the c++ notation is
1866 2014-03-01 22:08:59 <jakov> presumably
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1868 2014-03-01 22:09:43 <sipa> >> is a shift operator, not a rotation operator
1869 2014-03-01 22:09:51 <sipa> if you shift more than 64, the result is 0
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1871 2014-03-01 22:10:13 <jakov> i know, im just saying what the blog says
1872 2014-03-01 22:10:35 <jakov> i cant believe something that simple would've been missed, its much more likely its some blogger FUD
1873 2014-03-01 22:10:52 <jcorgan> the issue reported was originally discovered and discussed in December 2012
1874 2014-03-01 22:11:00 <jcorgan> here is the original thread and description
1875 2014-03-01 22:11:02 <jcorgan> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130614.msg1399528#msg1399528
1876 2014-03-01 22:11:04 <Aurigae> premine promo
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1890 2014-03-01 22:22:59 <anton000> just verifying if -daemon isn't set... -pid wont be created?
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1894 2014-03-01 22:26:29 <petertodd> jcorgan: you can test that in regtest mode btw - has a reward drop interval of 150 blocks
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1897 2014-03-01 22:27:38 <jcorgan> hmm, sound interesting
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1969 2014-03-01 23:33:20 <jcorgan> are duplicate coinbases the only time to expect a tx hash to appear more than once in the blockchain?  if so, does it then make sense to assume that (block_hash, tx_hash) is a unique pair?
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1972 2014-03-01 23:35:40 <jcorgan> also, was the problem with the duplicate coinbases corrected, hence we will never see them again after the original ones?
1973 2014-03-01 23:35:58 <Eliel_> jcorgan: it was corrected, yes
1974 2014-03-01 23:36:36 <jcorgan> thanks
1975 2014-03-01 23:36:38 <gmaxwell> yes, the inclusion of the block height in the coinbase prevents duplication, so long as one isn't a full sha256 collision.
1976 2014-03-01 23:36:58 <jcorgan> ah, came across that proposed fix, didn't see if it had been implemented
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1983 2014-03-01 23:46:45 <naout> hi. whats the name of the bip sound in bitcoin when
1984 2014-03-01 23:46:45 <naout>                      recived transaction?
1985 2014-03-01 23:47:03 <Luke-Jr> I don't think Bitcoin-Qt has any sounds..?
1986 2014-03-01 23:47:27 <naout> it has a bip
1987 2014-03-01 23:47:36 <Luke-Jr> maybe your OS adds it
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1990 2014-03-01 23:50:47 <jakov> maybe putchar(7) ?
1991 2014-03-01 23:51:00 <jakov> aka printing \x07 to stdout
1992 2014-03-01 23:51:05 <jakov> makes a beep
1993 2014-03-01 23:51:14 <sipa> bitcoind certainly doesn't do that
1994 2014-03-01 23:51:29 <sipa> no idea what Qt does with popup messages or notifications or such
1995 2014-03-01 23:52:10 <Luke-Jr> think it just tells the OS to do it
1996 2014-03-01 23:52:12 <Luke-Jr> :D
1997 2014-03-01 23:52:24 <gmaxwell> I think you're leaving a blockchain.info window open
1998 2014-03-01 23:52:30 <gmaxwell> or that
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