1 2014-03-03 00:00:57 <sipa> 0.8.6 may fail to validate the blockchain after running 0.
   2 2014-03-03 00:00:59 <sipa> 0.9
   3 2014-03-03 00:01:01 <[\\\]> actually
   4 2014-03-03 00:01:21 <[\\\]> debug.log has a bunch of "ReacceptWalletTransactions found spent coin "
   5 2014-03-03 00:01:27 <[\\\]> after running .8.6 after .9
   6 2014-03-03 00:01:43 <sipa> now that is interesting
   7 2014-03-03 00:02:06 <[\\\]> I'm currently stuck on the flash screen at "Done Loading"
   8 2014-03-03 00:02:10 <sipa> oh, 0.8.6 after 0.9
   9 2014-03-03 00:02:11 <[\\\]> but its not responsive
  10 2014-03-03 00:02:14 <sipa> yes, that's expected
  11 2014-03-03 00:02:22 <sipa> it should be mentioned in the release notes
  12 2014-03-03 00:02:25 <[\\\]> Windows isn't saying its not responsive
  13 2014-03-03 00:02:35 <[\\\]> but I can't interact with it
  14 2014-03-03 00:02:55 <Persopolis> that's a bit of an extreme test - i was more intrested to know if x86 is running and you start installing 64bit if it detects the x86 running and acts appropriately
  15 2014-03-03 00:03:19 <[\\\]> I can do that too.
  16 2014-03-03 00:04:11 <[\\\]> The debug log shows it was trying to connect to peers up until 45 seconds ago
  17 2014-03-03 00:04:29 <[\\\]> process has activity bouncing up and down, so it doesn't look like its completely hung yet
  18 2014-03-03 00:05:42 <sipa> [\\\]: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3782
  19 2014-03-03 00:05:58 <[\\\]> sipa, I ended up killing it
  20 2014-03-03 00:06:01 <[\\\]> and then restarting and its fine
  21 2014-03-03 00:06:04 <[\\\]> all blocks
  22 2014-03-03 00:06:28 <[\\\]> So at least I didn't have to resync
  23 2014-03-03 00:06:40 <sipa> please comment
  24 2014-03-03 00:07:17 <Persopolis> "sipa is fast"
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  26 2014-03-03 00:10:08 <[\\\]> sipa, pm?
  27 2014-03-03 00:10:30 <sipa> no, on that issue
  28 2014-03-03 00:10:39 <[\\\]> I know, but may I pm
  29 2014-03-03 00:10:50 <sipa> yes, but i'm about to disappear
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  33 2014-03-03 00:13:36 <TheSeven> BlueMatt: btw, while you're at it, you might want to update the package description of the ubuntu bitcoin package... it says the blockchain is 2+ gigabytes... might want to bump that to 20+ ;)
  34 2014-03-03 00:13:42 theRealWild0wnes is now known as Wild0wnes
  35 2014-03-03 00:16:58 <[\\\]> posted.
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  44 2014-03-03 00:23:12 <wallet42> is the order of the pubkeys or signatures somehow relevant in creating a p2sh / redeem Multisig transaction?
  45 2014-03-03 00:23:29 <sipa> the signatures must be in the same order as the public keys
  46 2014-03-03 00:24:04 TheGreatAl has joined
  47 2014-03-03 00:24:13 <wallet42> and omitted signatures are simply ommited or is there a placeholder value?
  48 2014-03-03 00:24:27 <sipa> simply omitted
  49 2014-03-03 00:24:28 <wallet42> in case of 2 of 3
  50 2014-03-03 00:24:30 <wallet42> k
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  53 2014-03-03 00:24:36 <wallet42> thx
  54 2014-03-03 00:25:12 <[\\\]> I just installed .9.0rc2 (x64) while .8.6 was running.
  55 2014-03-03 00:25:23 <[\\\]> The install completed successfully.
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  60 2014-03-03 00:26:01 <[\\\]> It failed on start with a directory lock erro, which is expected, just like you were trying to run multiple copies of the same version.
  61 2014-03-03 00:26:24 <[\\\]> Persopolis ^
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  67 2014-03-03 00:28:32 <skinnkavaj> Good storage huh?
  68 2014-03-03 00:28:34 <skinnkavaj> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcYHOZeb6LA
  69 2014-03-03 00:28:54 jakov has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  70 2014-03-03 00:28:56 <skinnkavaj> Tell me why Bitalo is bad, is it?
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  78 2014-03-03 00:35:46 <wallet42> is it the same order or "reverse" order since stack stuff?
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  83 2014-03-03 00:38:00 <Persopolis> [\\\] that's good :)
  84 2014-03-03 00:39:58 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  85 2014-03-03 00:40:13 <[\\\]> I agree.  I think that the experience is as one would expect (unless you were expected an in place upgrade, which doesn't happen when converting between x64 and X86)
  86 2014-03-03 00:40:35 <Diablo-D3> hey guys
  87 2014-03-03 00:40:48 <Diablo-D3> remember when we said bitcoin will officially be the world's currency when porn accepts it?
  88 2014-03-03 00:40:57 <Diablo-D3> nsfw, obviously: https://www.skweezme.com/get-access
  89 2014-03-03 00:41:04 <Diablo-D3> skeezme is basically the netflix of porn.
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  94 2014-03-03 00:44:08 * Persopolis opens incognito browser window...
  95 2014-03-03 00:45:13 <[\\\]> its awesome you decided that that needed to be posted into -dev.
  96 2014-03-03 00:45:14 <davvblack> There were a bunch of sites that accepted Bitcoin for a few days, then rescinded that on the grounds that it actually drove sales down.
  97 2014-03-03 00:45:25 <davvblack> oh, yeah, wrong channel...
  98 2014-03-03 00:45:47 <Diablo-D3> [\\\]: #bitcoin is supposed to be family friendly or w/e
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 125 2014-03-03 01:05:55 <shesek> davvblack, well, they can't hide an "$99/month subscription" in the footprints under a huge "$0.99 ACCESS!" with bitcoin
 126 2014-03-03 01:06:11 <davvblack> yeah, that's part of it
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 128 2014-03-03 01:06:12 <shesek> they make a lot of money from charging hidden amounts month after month from users
 129 2014-03-03 01:06:20 <davvblack> but i mean, if they can charge what they actually mean to charge, that might work better
 130 2014-03-03 01:06:39 <davvblack> i'd also be MUCH more willing to pay $10 or whatever in BTC rather than give a CC number for a $1 charge to a porn site
 131 2014-03-03 01:06:43 <davvblack> for that exact reason
 132 2014-03-03 01:07:03 <davvblack> this is the wrong room for this discussion, but it doesn't matter since it's so dead in here.
 133 2014-03-03 01:07:47 <shesek> the question is whether more paying users that actually know how much they're going to pay is more profitable than less users that pay higher amounts unknowingly
 134 2014-03-03 01:08:20 <shesek> (well, you also need to take chargebacks into account here - they also lose a lot of money on chargebacks because of their shady tactics)
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 136 2014-03-03 01:08:29 <davvblack> If porn continues only to use predatory/abusive prices, the trend will continue of nobody wanting to pay for porn
 137 2014-03-03 01:08:44 <davvblack> though it's kind of hard to get out of that deathspiral as an industry
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 140 2014-03-03 01:10:12 <shesek> a pay-per-video model can actually work pretty neatly with Bitcoin - part of the video is played for free, then replaced with a bitcoin address QR code
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 142 2014-03-03 01:10:27 <davvblack> mm hmm
 143 2014-03-03 01:10:28 <shesek> they can listen to payments and start playing immediately after receiving the payment
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 289 2014-03-03 02:49:52 <[\\\]> davvblack, it does matter because 1) this channel is publicly logged and linked as a bitcoin development channel and 2) This channel is meant to be a spot for developers to work on bitcoin, not idle chatter.
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 321 2014-03-03 03:11:40 <etotheipi_> anyone aware of an issue with blockchain.info?  I just got a report of a transaction that has 400 confirmations in Armory, biteasy, blockr.io, but blockchain.info shows it unconfirmed
 322 2014-03-03 03:11:57 justusranvier has joined
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 324 2014-03-03 03:13:18 <gmaxwell> can you share the txid with me? (perhaps in PM?
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 330 2014-03-03 03:18:10 <gmaxwell> So I see it too, whats more fun is that bc.i shows some of the outputs as spent, and those spends as confirmed.
 331 2014-03-03 03:18:24 <etotheipi_> oh yeah...
 332 2014-03-03 03:18:55 <etotheipi_> so, I wonder how that happened...
 333 2014-03-03 03:18:56 just[dead] is now known as justanotheruser
 334 2014-03-03 03:18:58 <etotheipi_> 2+ days old
 335 2014-03-03 03:19:31 <gmaxwell> https://blockchain.info/tx-index/114157517 < interesting to see that they 'handle' showing an unconfirmed input on a confirmed transaction.
 336 2014-03-03 03:19:45 <gmaxwell> "
 337 2014-03-03 03:19:46 <gmaxwell> Status: Not Connected (0 Nodes Connected)"
 338 2014-03-03 03:20:29 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 339 2014-03-03 03:20:42 <etotheipi_> Okay, well I'll see if I can find a way to report it to them
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 360 2014-03-03 03:39:23 <lechuga_> does blockexplorer not like p2sh multisig txns
 361 2014-03-03 03:39:36 petcat has joined
 362 2014-03-03 03:39:48 <justanotheruser> lechuga_: I think it calls them "strange"
 363 2014-03-03 03:39:53 <lechuga_> yeah
 364 2014-03-03 03:40:12 <lechuga_> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/4606c37e23d8c27bdeb2f26e276a8ae3b3ffa363dccf6cc5b03b5ce02eee5947#o0
 365 2014-03-03 03:40:15 <lechuga_> that was the redeeming txn
 366 2014-03-03 03:40:29 <lechuga_> it pays to my mycelium testnet wallet
 367 2014-03-03 03:40:39 <lechuga_> but i dont ever see the txn there either
 368 2014-03-03 03:40:47 <lechuga_> i wonder if its not fond of p2sh either
 369 2014-03-03 03:41:55 <justanotheruser> lechuga_: The redemption isn't showing up in mycelium?
 370 2014-03-03 03:42:13 saivann_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 371 2014-03-03 03:42:19 <lechuga_> nope
 372 2014-03-03 03:42:28 <lechuga_> oh nm
 373 2014-03-03 03:42:30 <lechuga_> there it is
 374 2014-03-03 03:42:31 <lechuga_> sry
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 487 2014-03-03 05:36:22 <tunage> where is the bitcoinj project? what task are left to be done?
 488 2014-03-03 05:36:31 ziggamon has joined
 489 2014-03-03 05:36:37 <tunage> I am a java programmer
 490 2014-03-03 05:36:43 <davvblack> https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/list
 491 2014-03-03 05:36:56 <parkerk> Is there any way to run bitcoind/Bitcoin-Qt without having a full block chain? I know there are clients like Multibit and Electrum, but neither seems to support RPC at the moment. I'm trying to run bitcoin on a machine with memory requirements for a project, so I can't afford several gigs of space taken by the chain
 492 2014-03-03 05:37:06 hsmiths has joined
 493 2014-03-03 05:37:09 <davvblack> no, not really
 494 2014-03-03 05:37:11 <davvblack> not and be useufl
 495 2014-03-03 05:37:14 <davvblack> useful
 496 2014-03-03 05:37:26 <parkerk> not and be useful?
 497 2014-03-03 05:37:28 torokun has joined
 498 2014-03-03 05:37:42 <davvblack>  you can't like figure out what coins are at an address without the full blockchain
 499 2014-03-03 05:37:48 <davvblack> afaik
 500 2014-03-03 05:38:02 CryptoBuck has joined
 501 2014-03-03 05:38:03 <davvblack> (in Bitcoin Core's current implementation)
 502 2014-03-03 05:38:08 <parkerk> Theres stuff like SPV though I know, where you can prune heavilly
 503 2014-03-03 05:38:20 <davvblack> yeah, it's possible.  just not yet.
 504 2014-03-03 05:38:29 <parkerk> Oh okay, thanks
 505 2014-03-03 05:38:30 <parkerk> Or does anyone know if Multibit or Electrum support json-RPC?
 506 2014-03-03 05:40:29 <tunage> I got number 46. how difficult would it be (or could bork), implementing l2ptp?
 507 2014-03-03 05:41:28 HeySteve has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 508 2014-03-03 05:41:58 <tunage> it's just a new port.
 509 2014-03-03 05:42:07 <davvblack> so then do it :P
 510 2014-03-03 05:42:30 <tunage> davvblack that's what I am here for brother!
 511 2014-03-03 05:42:38 <davvblack> did you read the thread?
 512 2014-03-03 05:42:40 <davvblack> https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/detail?id=46&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Priority%20Component%20Owner%20Summary
 513 2014-03-03 05:42:40 <tunage> I was picking one.  :)
 514 2014-03-03 05:42:45 <davvblack> it's not just about incoming connections
 515 2014-03-03 05:42:50 <davvblack> it's about deliberately selecting a peer
 516 2014-03-03 05:42:54 <davvblack> which needs a UI
 517 2014-03-03 05:42:56 <davvblack> etc
 518 2014-03-03 05:44:27 <tunage> reading deeper.  bare with me.
 519 2014-03-03 05:45:04 <davvblack> you should just learn C++ and contribute to Bitcoin Core :)
 520 2014-03-03 05:46:03 <parkerk> Or implement RPC ;) looks like there is a bounty https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=105278.0
 521 2014-03-03 05:46:56 ziggamon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 522 2014-03-03 05:46:57 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 523 2014-03-03 05:47:11 <tunage> davvblack don't be a hater.  :)
 524 2014-03-03 05:47:43 m104 has quit (Quit: brb)
 525 2014-03-03 05:47:48 <tunage> I know this stuff. unfortunately at the java side which I consider trash.
 526 2014-03-03 05:48:13 wyager has joined
 527 2014-03-03 05:48:26 <tunage> I am digging deeper and deeper into c++. but I am not that good yet.  :/
 528 2014-03-03 05:48:44 Ursium has quit (Quit: Ursium)
 529 2014-03-03 05:48:45 <davvblack> I'm a positive hater.  Also that bounty is expired fwiw.
 530 2014-03-03 05:49:08 <davvblack> which is apparently no longer 5btc.
 531 2014-03-03 05:49:10 <tunage> davvblack I'm just looking to pitch in.
 532 2014-03-03 05:49:17 <wyager> Does the fact that there are 21,000,000*100,000,000 Satoshis have anything to do with Satoshi wanting the number of Satoshis to fit into the mantissa of a IEEE 754 floating point number? For some reason I thought that was the case, but I can't find anywhere that actually says that.
 533 2014-03-03 05:49:24 m104 has joined
 534 2014-03-03 05:49:47 <tunage> bitcoin already consumes my life, how much worse can it get??
 535 2014-03-03 05:49:52 <gmaxwell> wyager: that was my assumption, but I've never seen id documented.
 536 2014-03-03 05:49:59 <parkerk> Ah, so it is :( guess so one likes RPC
 537 2014-03-03 05:50:21 Jamblico has joined
 538 2014-03-03 05:50:40 Jamblico has left ()
 539 2014-03-03 05:51:00 <wyager> gmaxwell: Yeah, for some reason I was pretty sure that was the reasoning behind it, but I can't find that anywhere! I may add that to some wiki pages as a possible justification.
 540 2014-03-03 05:51:04 <tunage> I want to help, what needs to be done?
 541 2014-03-03 05:51:25 <davvblack> that issues page for bitcoinj :P
 542 2014-03-03 05:51:38 <davvblack> or this one if you learn C++ github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
 543 2014-03-03 05:51:45 <davvblack> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
 544 2014-03-03 05:53:04 <tunage> put this mobips invested training to work!!!!
 545 2014-03-03 05:53:38 sofasurfer has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 546 2014-03-03 05:54:16 wateratosthenes has joined
 547 2014-03-03 05:54:33 <parkerk> Are there public servers for bitcoinj? Or do I need to host my own? From what I understand, bitcoinj talks to servers, which do the heavy work/keep track of the blocks
 548 2014-03-03 05:55:27 <davvblack> nah, bitcoinj still downloads a pruned blockchain, iirc
 549 2014-03-03 05:55:35 embicoin has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 27.0.1/20140212131424])
 550 2014-03-03 05:56:07 embicoin has joined
 551 2014-03-03 05:56:10 <parkerk> Really? I guess I assumed otherwise as multibit uses it
 552 2014-03-03 05:56:27 embicoin has quit (Client Quit)
 553 2014-03-03 05:57:10 <davvblack> "Highly optimised lightweight simplified payment verification (SPV) mode. In this mode, only a small part of the block chain is downloaded and verified, making bitcoinj suitable for usage on constrained devices like laptops, smartphones or cheap virtual private servers. SPV wallets can sync with the blockchain in seconds, even from a cold start."
 554 2014-03-03 05:57:15 <davvblack> https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/
 555 2014-03-03 05:57:34 <davvblack> it doesn't know the complete cryptographic history of each coin
 556 2014-03-03 05:57:52 <davvblack> but still knows the value of each address and all spendable outputs
 557 2014-03-03 05:57:55 <parkerk> Ahh, thanks. That's exactly what I need. If only it were in python ;,(
 558 2014-03-03 05:58:14 <davvblack> the only thing for bitcoin i've seen in python are wrappers for the json RPC
 559 2014-03-03 05:58:17 <davvblack> doesn't really count.
 560 2014-03-03 05:58:58 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 561 2014-03-03 05:59:27 <wyager> OK, there was only one relevant wiki page re. the 21 million cap. I've edited it to mention both the reward halving schedule and the IEEE mantissa as possible justifications
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 566 2014-03-03 06:00:31 <davvblack> storing a satoshi value in a float sounds incredibly dangerous to me :P
 567 2014-03-03 06:00:48 <wyager> davvblack: Yeah, but it can be done, which may be why satoshi chose 21M BTC
 568 2014-03-03 06:00:53 <davvblack> the math is pretty close, but that's a weird thing to chose
 569 2014-03-03 06:00:56 <davvblack> mm hmm
 570 2014-03-03 06:01:01 <wyager> He was probably considering javascript clients, for example
 571 2014-03-03 06:01:02 <davvblack> 51 bits or something?
 572 2014-03-03 06:01:07 <wyager> 52
 573 2014-03-03 06:01:11 <davvblack> yea
 574 2014-03-03 06:01:13 <wyager> So it's actually right under half
 575 2014-03-03 06:01:20 torokun has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 576 2014-03-03 06:01:25 <gmaxwell> wyager: it also fits in a decimal64
 577 2014-03-03 06:01:34 <wyager> true
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 581 2014-03-03 06:03:16 <wyager> Clever guy
 582 2014-03-03 06:03:58 <davvblack> heh, fwiw, it is not possible to store all of the satoshi accurately in the default number type in php.
 583 2014-03-03 06:04:01 <gmaxwell> people whine about a lot of things in bitcoin being "arbritary" which are ... more considered than you might expect.
 584 2014-03-03 06:04:20 <gmaxwell> davvblack: depends on how you've compiled php and on which platform, I think. :(
 585 2014-03-03 06:04:27 <wyager> davvblack: Maybe Satoshi wanted people not to make BTC stuff in php :p
 586 2014-03-03 06:04:39 <wyager> Didn't stop karpeles
 587 2014-03-03 06:04:53 <davvblack> i don't think satoshi was a technological prescriptivist :P
 588 2014-03-03 06:05:03 <davvblack> but yeah, there might be a way to compile PHP to allow that.
 589 2014-03-03 06:05:18 <davvblack> again, sounds incredibly dangerous
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 600 2014-03-03 06:20:34 <anton000> bcmath gmp?
 601 2014-03-03 06:20:39 torokun has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 602 2014-03-03 06:21:30 <davvblack> right
 603 2014-03-03 06:22:50 <wumpus> no decimal type in php? or arbitrary precision integer?
 604 2014-03-03 06:23:10 <davvblack> gmp provides those
 605 2014-03-03 06:23:13 <davvblack> not inherently
 606 2014-03-03 06:23:23 <davvblack> php is super lose with type.
 607 2014-03-03 06:23:28 <wumpus> DO NOT store BTC amounts in double (or, the horror, float) 
 608 2014-03-03 06:23:42 <davvblack> iirc, "123412341234123412341234" == "123412341234123412341000" evaluates to true in php
 609 2014-03-03 06:23:46 <davvblack> because they both look 'numbery'
 610 2014-03-03 06:23:50 <davvblack> and get converted silently
 611 2014-03-03 06:23:55 <wumpus> if you have problems with your JSON library and numbers, you could try https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3759
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 617 2014-03-03 06:31:44 <anton000> satoshi can be stored in php int if your on 64bit
 618 2014-03-03 06:32:05 lechuga_ has joined
 619 2014-03-03 06:32:23 <anton000> $ php -r 'echo PHP_INT_MAX;'
 620 2014-03-03 06:32:23 <anton000> 9223372036854775807
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 622 2014-03-03 06:33:02 <anton000> *youre
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 634 2014-03-03 06:45:30 <wumpus> eek...
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 636 2014-03-03 06:49:00 <BCB> how can you tell if the blockchain has been fully downloaded on linux
 637 2014-03-03 06:49:25 <phantomcircuit> BCB, bitcoind or bitcoin-qt
 638 2014-03-03 06:49:28 <wumpus> you'll never download the blockchain fully :)
 639 2014-03-03 06:49:32 <BCB> bitcoind
 640 2014-03-03 06:49:38 <BCB> wumpus caught up
 641 2014-03-03 06:49:41 ziggamon has joined
 642 2014-03-03 06:49:43 <phantomcircuit> BCB, tail ~/.bitcoin/debug.log
 643 2014-03-03 06:49:57 <wumpus> you can check the block you're at with getinfo though
 644 2014-03-03 06:49:59 zer0def has joined
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 646 2014-03-03 06:50:53 <BCB> "blocks" : 286273,
 647 2014-03-03 06:51:37 <BCB> looks like I'm behind
 648 2014-03-03 06:51:55 <BCB> phantomcircuit, where can I find the latest block
 649 2014-03-03 06:52:08 <wumpus> the way bitcoin-qt checks if you're caught up is: look at the time of the last block, if it is recent, you've caught up
 650 2014-03-03 06:52:13 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
 651 2014-03-03 06:52:14 <gribble> 288696
 652 2014-03-03 06:52:30 <BCB> coll
 653 2014-03-03 06:52:32 <BCB> cool
 654 2014-03-03 06:52:33 <BCB> thx
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 658 2014-03-03 06:55:49 <anton000> 288696
 659 2014-03-03 06:56:11 <anton000> i hate you gribble bot lolol
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 664 2014-03-03 07:01:52 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: CodeShark: hey :P
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 683 2014-03-03 07:27:42 <jcorgan> rasmuzen: how are your bitcoin studies coming along?
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 690 2014-03-03 07:38:17 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: good I think
 691 2014-03-03 07:38:40 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: it's a slow and steady process, there's a ton to learn
 692 2014-03-03 07:38:56 m104 has joined
 693 2014-03-03 07:39:08 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: so if I'm trying to check the balance of a wallet, I'm going to have to be able to find out the balance for a set of public keys, yeah?
 694 2014-03-03 07:40:21 <jcorgan> i wouldn't go about it that way
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 697 2014-03-03 07:41:07 <jcorgan> public keys don't have balances
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 699 2014-03-03 07:41:39 <davvblack> (addresses are hashes of public keys, rasmuzen)
 700 2014-03-03 07:41:41 <davvblack> so they are related
 701 2014-03-03 07:41:41 <jcorgan> just keep track in your wallet of all the unspent transaction outputs that you are able to redeem.  they will all have a certain value associated with them, and the sum of those is the wallet ballance.
 702 2014-03-03 07:44:39 <jcorgan> it would probably help adjust your thinking to eliminate the concept of "balances"
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 705 2014-03-03 07:46:02 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: davvblack: isn't each utxo always directly correlated with a public key?
 706 2014-03-03 07:46:09 <jcorgan> that concept has too many misleading associations from its traditional usage in accounting to be usefully applied in bitcoin
 707 2014-03-03 07:46:31 <jcorgan> each utxo *can* be associate with a public key (hashed to an address), but it could also be other things
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 709 2014-03-03 07:46:47 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: like what
 710 2014-03-03 07:46:51 <davvblack> it can also be the hash of a script who's criteria need to be met
 711 2014-03-03 07:46:58 <davvblack> that's how m of n transactions work
 712 2014-03-03 07:47:07 <wumpus> that's it, I'm not going to #bitcoin anymore
 713 2014-03-03 07:47:27 <rasmuzen> wumpus: why do you say that
 714 2014-03-03 07:47:48 <davvblack> obnoxious people like stoned
 715 2014-03-03 07:48:44 <jcorgan> rasmuzen: if you recall from the previous discussion, about the glass boxes, the locks on them are really challenges, that can be opened by satisfying the challenge
 716 2014-03-03 07:49:08 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: so you can have a glass box that isn't associated with a public key?
 717 2014-03-03 07:49:11 <jcorgan> those challenges are often in the form of "prove you have the private key for this address"
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 720 2014-03-03 07:49:36 <davvblack> you could even have a box with a nonsense challenge like "show that 2 = 5"
 721 2014-03-03 07:49:40 <jcorgan> it could be associated with multiple keys
 722 2014-03-03 07:49:43 <davvblack> and sending coins there gets them stuck
 723 2014-03-03 07:49:43 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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 725 2014-03-03 07:50:07 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: how often in practice are those challenges not just "prove that you have the private key for this address" it seems like the vast majority of the time is that type of lock
 726 2014-03-03 07:50:09 <jcorgan> it could be "execute a script that hashes to this"
 727 2014-03-03 07:50:21 <jcorgan> most of the time, yes, but not all the time
 728 2014-03-03 07:50:36 <jcorgan> bitcoin is more general than that
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 730 2014-03-03 07:50:58 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: but if I'm the one creating the glass boxes, then can't I assume they're all created that way?
 731 2014-03-03 07:51:27 brson has joined
 732 2014-03-03 07:52:28 <jcorgan> you could, but it seems like you are going out of your way to mentally fit the idea of single address "balances" and address reuse into what is a more general system
 733 2014-03-03 07:52:52 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: I guess I feel like it's complicating the system to take into account other types of locks, am I wrong/
 734 2014-03-03 07:53:32 <jcorgan> the system is already what it is, you don't gain by pretending it is simpler than that
 735 2014-03-03 07:53:54 <jcorgan> let me put it this way
 736 2014-03-03 07:54:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|rasmuzen: for a wallet, you only care about glass boxes created to fit your key
 737 2014-03-03 07:54:31 <jcorgan> even if all your service ever does is create pay-to-pubkey-hash type transactions, a user's wallet is a collection of those unspent transactions, not a "collection of addresses"
 738 2014-03-03 07:55:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You only need to look for glass boxes that fit your keys when looking for transactions sent to you
 739 2014-03-03 07:55:41 <jcorgan> michagogo|cloud: this is a continuation of a discussion from yesterday, there's some context missing
 740 2014-03-03 07:55:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But if you're trying to get a larger overview of what's going on, you need to consider that there will be other glass boxes
 741 2014-03-03 07:55:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jcorgan: ah, okay
 742 2014-03-03 07:56:14 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 743 2014-03-03 07:56:26 <jcorgan> we left things off with you asking why anyone ever needed more than one address
 744 2014-03-03 07:56:41 <jcorgan> and several of us responded with answers about privacy and information leakage and linkage
 745 2014-03-03 07:56:45 <jcorgan> but then you had to leave
 746 2014-03-03 07:56:56 antephialtic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 747 2014-03-03 07:57:13 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: so do utxos have a unique id or something they can be associated with? I'll need to store a list of utxos per wallet, something like [utxo id, utxo value, utxo lock key]
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 749 2014-03-03 07:58:20 <tarix_jp> you need the txid and the tx index. it probably helps to look at a transaction and then look up where its inputs came from
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 751 2014-03-03 07:58:57 <jcorgan> once confirmed into a block, the tuple [tx_hash, output number] is sufficient to reconstruct everything, but you may want to also cache the tx amount and scriptpubkey as well
 752 2014-03-03 07:59:30 yubrew has joined
 753 2014-03-03 07:59:33 <davvblack> anyone have technical background on the peter todd coinbase consensus thing?
 754 2014-03-03 07:59:57 <rasmuzen> so basically find the tx that the utxo came from, and the output index? then cache the tx amount (for that specific output) and the scriptpubkey
 755 2014-03-03 08:00:04 <tarix_jp> jcorgan: keeping the scriptpubkey speeds up the signing of the input for a new transaction?
 756 2014-03-03 08:01:28 <jcorgan> it identifies what is needed to redeem that output
 757 2014-03-03 08:02:26 <jcorgan> and yes, caching it in the wallet might make it faster to lookup, but that's implementation dependent
 758 2014-03-03 08:02:28 <rasmuzen> so if I wanted to be able to instantly look up the value of any utxo I'd need to linearly process every single transaction in the block chain and maintain a giant index for this stuff?
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 760 2014-03-03 08:02:52 <jcorgan> ?
 761 2014-03-03 08:02:58 <jcorgan> the utxo has the value stored in it
 762 2014-03-03 08:03:13 <jcorgan> you just need to keep track of whether it has already been spent
 763 2014-03-03 08:03:54 <tarix_jp> think carefully if you really want to store utxos that aren't related to you. as of right now there are over 9million of them.
 764 2014-03-03 08:03:55 <rasmuzen> so someone's net worth in bitcoin is the total value across all utxos for which they know the answer to the lock
 765 2014-03-03 08:04:03 <jcorgan> in your case you can let bitcoind manage things and just query it through its RPC interface
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 767 2014-03-03 08:04:22 <jcorgan> rasmuzen: pretty much
 768 2014-03-03 08:05:46 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: would it be at all useful to provide a service that tells you the value of a txo and whether it's unspent or not
 769 2014-03-03 08:05:46 smash_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 770 2014-03-03 08:05:58 <rasmuzen> input: transaction, output index
 771 2014-03-03 08:06:14 <rasmuzen> output: value (int/satoshi), unspent: (bool)
 772 2014-03-03 08:06:45 <rasmuzen> doesn't seem like it
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 774 2014-03-03 08:07:17 <rasmuzen> is it safe to give out your scriptpubkey and bitcoin address?
 775 2014-03-03 08:08:05 markus__ has joined
 776 2014-03-03 08:08:19 <jcorgan> not sure i understand--those are what are published on the blockchain
 777 2014-03-03 08:08:34 theorb has joined
 778 2014-03-03 08:08:37 <rasmuzen> but what if you don't have the blockchain on your computer
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 781 2014-03-03 08:09:03 <rasmuzen> I'm thinking typical user who doesn't have bitcoind/bitcoin-qt, they just use blockchain.info?
 782 2014-03-03 08:09:28 <jeremias> or whatever other wallets there  are
 783 2014-03-03 08:09:34 aegis has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 784 2014-03-03 08:10:08 <jcorgan> if you have had bitcoin sent to an address, and then you tell someone else what that address is, you've given certain financial information about you.  *Especially* in the case where you reuse addresses for more than one transaction.
 785 2014-03-03 08:10:30 ThomasV has joined
 786 2014-03-03 08:10:46 <jcorgan> so in general, the identity mapping between person<==>address is a matter of privacy policy
 787 2014-03-03 08:11:15 aegis has joined
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 789 2014-03-03 08:11:52 <jcorgan> but are you still going with the idea that you'd like to to provide a web wallet service?
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 793 2014-03-03 08:13:16 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: I guess I'm trying to figure that out
 794 2014-03-03 08:13:27 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: it doesn't really feel like there's a big need for another web wallet service
 795 2014-03-03 08:13:36 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: except maybe for other cryptocurrencies
 796 2014-03-03 08:14:03 <wumpus> please don't store money for other people
 797 2014-03-03 08:14:32 <rasmuzen> wumpus: -_- why
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 801 2014-03-03 08:17:12 <wumpus> it is very high risk
 802 2014-03-03 08:18:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|canibuildasitehandlingotherpeoplesmoney.com
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 805 2014-03-03 08:19:50 <rasmuzen> if everybody listened to that advice then we'd have no web wallets or banks or etc.
 806 2014-03-03 08:20:09 <Apocalyptic> well I certainly wish Karpeles did listen to that advice
 807 2014-03-03 08:20:28 <rasmuzen> can you blame him for trying
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 810 2014-03-03 08:20:54 <rasmuzen> anyways
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 817 2014-03-03 08:26:11 <wumpus> rasmuzen: which would be good, with all problems that the proliferation of shady services (some with a glossy finish, "trade with confidence!") has given us
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 822 2014-03-03 08:27:15 <tarix_jp> scams are not unique to bitcoin
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 825 2014-03-03 08:27:49 <wumpus> I'm not so much talking about scams, just mess-ups, and they all start with the promise to keep money for other people
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 828 2014-03-03 08:28:45 <tarix_jp> the current alternatives are terrible.
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 830 2014-03-03 08:30:03 <tarix_jp> if i had a paper wallet in my house i would never be able to leave. one dumb neighbor and poof, up in smoke.
 831 2014-03-03 08:30:33 <wumpus> so you put it in another person's paper wallet, which can go poof as well
 832 2014-03-03 08:30:53 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it's enough that that I've noticed a negative emotional reaction twitter 'bootstrap' ... it seems like its is a scam signal to me.
 833 2014-03-03 08:31:30 mattco_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 834 2014-03-03 08:33:01 <rasmuzen> does nobody find it useful to be able to create a public/private key pair, send bitcoins to that public address, check the balance "of that address", then send bitcoins from that address with the private key and not have to know about all the utxo stuff?
 835 2014-03-03 08:33:32 Krellan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 836 2014-03-03 08:33:33 <rasmuzen> I feel like that abstraction layer is awesome, and 99.9% of people will never know about utxos and eventually most probably won't even know about public/private keys
 837 2014-03-03 08:33:39 <tarix_jp> every wallet client insulates the user from utxos
 838 2014-03-03 08:34:12 <wumpus> gmaxwell: it's certainly the 'the easy way' to do web design, makes sense as a bit of a stink signal... on the other hand, a company investing everything in a nice design instead of security would not get far either, so it's also a deceiving signal (but by lack of information...)
 839 2014-03-03 08:34:40 jeewee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 840 2014-03-03 08:35:21 <gmaxwell> yea, wasn't an intentional signal... I just saw a site with it and felt uneasy and then realized it was because so many scam sites had used it too.
 841 2014-03-03 08:35:29 <jcorgan> wumpus: bootstrap screams "let's throw something up quickly", a sign of a company without proper resources or who is only planning to be around for a short while
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 843 2014-03-03 08:36:10 <sipa> davvblack: it is absolutely possible to find out wallet balances without downloading full block history - you just can validate everything
 844 2014-03-03 08:36:16 <Apocalyptic> <jcorgan> wumpus: bootstrap screams "let's throw something up quickly", a sign of a company without proper resources or who is only planning to be around for a short while // I must disagree on this
 845 2014-03-03 08:36:34 <jcorgan> Apocalyptic: correction, "screams to me"
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 848 2014-03-03 08:36:54 <Apocalyptic> I run a service with a boostrap website and i don't belong to either of those categories
 849 2014-03-03 08:36:59 hmmma has joined
 850 2014-03-03 08:37:46 <tarix_jp> coinbase ran on pure bootstrap for 18 months or so?
 851 2014-03-03 08:38:21 <jcorgan> Apocalyptic: of course.  i'm just relating, after seeing what seems like hundreds of marginal companies using bootstrap, what reaction i have, like gmaxwell mentioned
 852 2014-03-03 08:38:22 <Apocalyptic> jcorgan, but i get that it may seem so
 853 2014-03-03 08:38:28 ntio1 has joined
 854 2014-03-03 08:39:27 <jcorgan> it's like companies that only have webforms for feedback or contact, or that use cheesy stock photography
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 856 2014-03-03 08:40:22 <sipa> rasmuzen: that abstraction is awesome... but completely unsafe
 857 2014-03-03 08:40:42 <rasmuzen> sipa: why?
 858 2014-03-03 08:40:55 <sipa> rasmuzen: you're trusting a third party to tell you how much money you have
 859 2014-03-03 08:41:05 ntio has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 860 2014-03-03 08:41:35 <rasmuzen> sipa: you don't use a bank?
 861 2014-03-03 08:42:18 <sipa> rasmuzen: yes
 862 2014-03-03 08:42:28 <rasmuzen> sipa: yes you don't or yes you do?
 863 2014-03-03 08:42:44 <sipa> rasmuzen: i do
 864 2014-03-03 08:42:57 <rasmuzen> sipa: so you trust a third party service to tell you how much money you have?
 865 2014-03-03 08:43:08 <sipa> rasmuzen: no, i pay them for it
 866 2014-03-03 08:43:27 <rasmuzen> sipa: do you consider that unsafe?
 867 2014-03-03 08:43:30 <sipa> no
 868 2014-03-03 08:43:45 <sipa> just unfortunate
 869 2014-03-03 08:44:00 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: so if I want to create a service that provides the total value of all unspent outputs associated with a given scriptpubkey, I'll need to process all transactions and create a giant index?
 870 2014-03-03 08:44:13 <sipa> rasmuzen: yes
 871 2014-03-03 08:44:37 <rasmuzen> I realize that utxos aren't necessarily associated with a scriptpubkey, that's only a subset of all utxos
 872 2014-03-03 08:44:40 <rasmuzen> I'm only interested in those for now
 873 2014-03-03 08:45:02 <rasmuzen> sipa: jcorgan: then what's the easiest way to retrieve and process all transactions? bitcoind?
 874 2014-03-03 08:45:06 <sipa> rasmuzen: i'm just saying that it is a huge responsibility... and judging from what has happened in the bitcoin world so far, many have screwed up
 875 2014-03-03 08:45:17 <jcorgan> rasmuzen: yes, you do.  bitcoind can do most of the heavy lifting for you.
 876 2014-03-03 08:45:53 <sipa> rasmuzen: if you want to go through as many hoops as banks do, then please do, but just the regulations are probably horrible
 877 2014-03-03 08:46:20 <sipa> rasmuzen: and with bitcoin, there is no need for that
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 879 2014-03-03 08:46:47 <sipa> there are several open source packages that can do this for you, locally, without trusting any service
 880 2014-03-03 08:47:03 <rasmuzen> sipa: but that isn't scalable
 881 2014-03-03 08:47:15 <sipa> how so?
 882 2014-03-03 08:47:49 <rasmuzen> sipa: you're talking about offline wallets?
 883 2014-03-03 08:48:09 Emzy has joined
 884 2014-03-03 08:48:16 <sipa> i'm talking about any bitcoin wallet implementation
 885 2014-03-03 08:48:22 <rasmuzen> that isn't a web wallet
 886 2014-03-03 08:48:55 <sipa> well web wallets are a wallet implementation tok, just not one you run yourself
 887 2014-03-03 08:49:00 <sipa> *too
 888 2014-03-03 08:49:35 <rasmuzen> so say I want to send you money, I need to install something on my computer to do that?
 889 2014-03-03 08:49:51 <sipa> is that unreasonable?
 890 2014-03-03 08:49:56 <rasmuzen> completely
 891 2014-03-03 08:50:05 <sipa> then there is no hope for bitcoin
 892 2014-03-03 08:50:13 <rasmuzen> I'm at a restaurant, you just paid for dinner, I wanna give you ten bucks from my phone
 893 2014-03-03 08:50:15 <wumpus> or on your phone, or use a specific device for the purpose like a trezor, ...
 894 2014-03-03 08:50:27 <wumpus> is this news?
 895 2014-03-03 08:50:32 <sipa> oh, sure, doesn't need to be a desktop system
 896 2014-03-03 08:50:36 <rasmuzen> I'm not gonna have the entire block chain downloaded on my phone
 897 2014-03-03 08:50:43 <sipa> you don't need to
 898 2014-03-03 08:50:53 <wumpus> what are you talking about, none of the phone apps download the whole blockchain
 899 2014-03-03 08:51:14 <davvblack> look at how bitcoinj does it
 900 2014-03-03 08:51:16 <wumpus> (at least the ones I know of ...)
 901 2014-03-03 08:51:32 <rasmuzen> then how can they be sure how much money you have in your wallet?
 902 2014-03-03 08:51:39 <tarix_jp> yeah, all of the phone clients are SPV clients :)
 903 2014-03-03 08:51:42 <davvblack> you can't be 'sure'
 904 2014-03-03 08:51:46 <sipa> they use lightweight verification
 905 2014-03-03 08:51:49 <davvblack> but you can be 'somewhat confident'
 906 2014-03-03 08:51:58 <davvblack> which still has a bunch of 9s on the end
 907 2014-03-03 08:52:14 <davvblack> it just requires trust in the miners, where the normal client doesn't
 908 2014-03-03 08:52:38 <sipa> it basically requires miners to conspire against you, if they want to make you false believe you received money
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 911 2014-03-03 08:53:43 <wumpus> and lying miners still can't steal your coins directly, unlike webwallet operators
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 915 2014-03-03 08:54:11 <rasmuzen> blah
 916 2014-03-03 08:54:33 <rasmuzen> so what do you have to put on your phone to enable you to send money from it?
 917 2014-03-03 08:54:49 <sipa> "bitcoin wallet for android" for example
 918 2014-03-03 08:54:57 <tarix_jp> from nothing (block chain.info) to a light weight client
 919 2014-03-03 08:55:02 <sipa> is an actual bitcoin client
 920 2014-03-03 08:55:41 <rasmuzen> but what do you have to input into the app to enable it to send money?
 921 2014-03-03 08:55:58 <tarix_jp> address + amount
 922 2014-03-03 08:56:01 <sipa> well you have to send bitcoin to it...
 923 2014-03-03 08:56:06 <tarix_jp> do you have an android phone?
 924 2014-03-03 08:56:08 <wumpus> usually a QR code
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 926 2014-03-03 08:56:14 <wumpus> NFC is also supported
 927 2014-03-03 08:56:15 <sipa> before it can send any yourself
 928 2014-03-03 08:56:22 <sipa> or just a URI
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 930 2014-03-03 08:57:41 <rasmuzen> so the app has a separate bitcoin address that you send to or you put your own bitcoin address onto it?
 931 2014-03-03 08:58:00 <wumpus> yes the app is a complete bitcoin wallet
 932 2014-03-03 08:58:01 <sipa> it has its own
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 934 2014-03-03 08:58:29 <wumpus> you can send coins to it, and it can spend them again
 935 2014-03-03 08:58:50 <rasmuzen> see that's not how people think
 936 2014-03-03 08:59:09 <sipa> and "your own bitcoin address" sounds a bit incorrect... addresses aren't really supposed to be reused for more than one payment (though many applications make it hard)
 937 2014-03-03 08:59:11 <rasmuzen> people have a bank account, they can spend the funds in their bank account with their credit card, or they can enable a mobile app (eg venmo) to spend their funds
 938 2014-03-03 08:59:19 <rasmuzen> they aren't going to send funds to their phone to spend from their...
 939 2014-03-03 08:59:20 <rasmuzen> that isn't scalable
 940 2014-03-03 08:59:27 <wumpus> this is not about how people think but how things are actually are
 941 2014-03-03 08:59:28 <rasmuzen> there*
 942 2014-03-03 08:59:51 <tarix_jp> anyway, if you have an android phone and want to install the bitcoin testnet wallet i would be happen to send you some to play with. you can send them around and look at the transactions they generate.
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 945 2014-03-03 09:00:10 <sipa> i don't know... i put physical notes and coins in my physical wallet too
 946 2014-03-03 09:00:19 <sipa> that's very much the same
 947 2014-03-03 09:00:35 <wumpus> yes it is sort of the same
 948 2014-03-03 09:00:49 <wumpus> you carry the money along with you in your phone instead of your wallet
 949 2014-03-03 09:00:52 <sipa> has worked reasonably well for the last few centuries
 950 2014-03-03 09:00:57 <rasmuzen> it's going away
 951 2014-03-03 09:01:11 <rasmuzen> I can't remember the last time I even had cash in my wallet
 952 2014-03-03 09:01:23 <rasmuzen> I pay with my phone or card always
 953 2014-03-03 09:01:23 <sipa> there is work around being abke to share a bitcoin wallet across multiple devices
 954 2014-03-03 09:01:42 <sipa> but it has obvious security risks
 955 2014-03-03 09:01:50 <rasmuzen> what if your computer dies? then you lose all your coins?
 956 2014-03-03 09:01:54 <sipa> no
 957 2014-03-03 09:01:59 <rasmuzen> where's the backup?
 958 2014-03-03 09:02:03 <sipa> elsewhere
 959 2014-03-03 09:02:06 <rasmuzen> lol
 960 2014-03-03 09:02:25 <sipa> what's funny?
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 962 2014-03-03 09:02:29 <rasmuzen> elsewhere is a third party's database
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 964 2014-03-03 09:02:40 <sipa> no
 965 2014-03-03 09:02:43 <rasmuzen> it will be
 966 2014-03-03 09:02:52 <rasmuzen> for 99.9% of users of bitcoin in 5 years
 967 2014-03-03 09:03:00 <sipa> probably
 968 2014-03-03 09:03:04 <wumpus> bitcoin pretty much has the same risk profile with regard to theft or loss as gold, anyway this is veering off-topic for #-dev
 969 2014-03-03 09:03:22 <rasmuzen> alright I'll shut up
 970 2014-03-03 09:03:31 <wumpus> (though you can't backup your gold! :P)
 971 2014-03-03 09:03:39 <rasmuzen> lol
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 973 2014-03-03 09:04:10 <sipa> the way forward that actually provides good security without giving up access to your coins, is through multisig
 974 2014-03-03 09:04:24 <sipa> where you require an additional signature by a third party
 975 2014-03-03 09:04:31 <wumpus> but if it's gone it's gone, so you don't want to carry along large amounts of it (or even access to it) everywhere you go
 976 2014-03-03 09:04:51 <sipa> who is configured to for example not sign automatically abkve a certain amount
 977 2014-03-03 09:05:01 <sipa> or enforce daily limits
 978 2014-03-03 09:05:17 <sipa> or require confirmation through (say) an SMS before continuing
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 981 2014-03-03 09:08:47 <wumpus> in that case the third party can refuse you access to your coins but it cannot steal them
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 983 2014-03-03 09:10:39 <sipa> you probably want 2-of-3 multisig, where one of the keys is secure storage (vault?)
 984 2014-03-03 09:11:00 <sipa> so you can still access everything using this
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 986 2014-03-03 09:11:10 <wumpus> good poiint
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 993 2014-03-03 09:14:43 <wumpus> at least it can be done, if only developers of new services focused on that instead of building another dime a dozen web wallet
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 999 2014-03-03 09:19:36 <gmaxwell> I mean, thats why we rushed to get p2sh deployed so there would be no sender side hangups when one of these innovative wallets showed up.
1000 2014-03-03 09:19:41 _yoy_ has joined
1001 2014-03-03 09:19:55 <gmaxwell> We didn't want people to choose to not do that because coins couldn't be sent to such a wallet.
1002 2014-03-03 09:20:16 dabb has joined
1003 2014-03-03 09:20:28 <gmaxwell> And I don't know if we were mistaken that doing that was necessary and most of sufficient simply because there are major widely used clients that still will not send to p2sh.
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1009 2014-03-03 09:24:03 <wumpus> is there anything else that we can do to make P2SH more well-known?
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1012 2014-03-03 09:25:18 <wumpus> maybe something that allows building P2SH scripts/addresses in the GUI?
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1014 2014-03-03 09:26:17 <gmaxwell> I think that we're finally over the hump now, since bitcoinj has it it'll just take updates from the things using it to remove that barrier.
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1016 2014-03-03 09:26:48 <gmaxwell> I can't tell if its working in bc.i yet, if not, that needs to be fixed. Armory needs to be fixed still, but I think thats a lesser impact.
1017 2014-03-03 09:27:07 <gmaxwell> I mean, whos going to care about creating addresses when people can't send them funds? :P
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1020 2014-03-03 09:28:27 <gmaxwell> beyond that, we're missing a bunch of things in the ecosystem.  I don't believe any normal wallet can do a n-factor wallet.. the only way to do it with bitcoin-qt is via raw transactions, and even then you need to use a blockexplorer to find the txouts to spend because we don't have a way to add a p2sh address to the wallet without having the keys.
1021 2014-03-03 09:29:35 <wumpus> sure, agreed, but giving it more visibility sometimes helps, so people that want to create services realize it's there and usable right now without rocket science
1022 2014-03-03 09:29:38 * sipa does the watch-only dance
1023 2014-03-03 09:30:12 <wumpus> +1 sipa
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1025 2014-03-03 09:30:47 <gmaxwell> wumpus: so I had a conversation with some pool operators wrt moving their funds to multisig earlier.
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1029 2014-03-03 09:32:06 <wumpus> good, some early adopters
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1031 2014-03-03 09:32:11 <gmaxwell> And the barriers we hit were (1) no multisig, (2) only create raw (they considered it a danger and they'd rather have something that guarenteed correct fees), (3) format for signatures that packed inputs, but thats easy to work around, (4) no solver for the script they really want to use (which isn't a plain n of m)) ... I think that was it.
1032 2014-03-03 09:32:25 <gmaxwell> er (1) should be no watching wallet to get the inputs, sorry, 1:30 in the morning here
1033 2014-03-03 09:32:54 <gmaxwell> (4) could can just wait and be plain n-of-m at first. So I think the biggest barrier was watching.
1034 2014-03-03 09:33:09 <gmaxwell> oh and their own pool software can't actually pay to a p2sh address, but that sounded like an easy fix.
1035 2014-03-03 09:33:29 Emcy has joined
1036 2014-03-03 09:36:11 <gmaxwell> Ultimately we need something better than watching. . ... e.g. Create multsig wallet (e.g. that would come after multiwallet support) where you pop in extended pubkeys and it knows how to create signing requests... but bare metal support would be a start.
1037 2014-03-03 09:36:21 <wumpus> I'll try to fix the nits in the watch only pull and get (1) for next release
1038 2014-03-03 09:36:45 <gmaxwell> I lost track of the nits.
1039 2014-03-03 09:37:02 <gmaxwell> was it just having a seperate 'watched balance' ?
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1041 2014-03-03 09:37:04 <wumpus> the main one is that the watch only balance should be reported separately
1042 2014-03-03 09:37:07 <wumpus> yes
1043 2014-03-03 09:37:33 <gmaxwell> makes sense, I guess it should also get flags in list transactions (category?) and listunspent
1044 2014-03-03 09:37:38 <wumpus> the getbalance balance has always been the amount of coins that can be spent now with the keys we have at the moment
1045 2014-03-03 09:38:10 <wumpus> yes, in listunspent there is already a flag
1046 2014-03-03 09:38:29 <wumpus> not sure about listtransactions, but indeed there should be one so they can be identified
1047 2014-03-03 09:38:54 <gmaxwell> the other thing they wanted was BIP32 public derrivation, so they wouldn't be stuck with a single key, but I think that at that point it was biting off too much at once.
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1052 2014-03-03 09:43:22 <sipa> having bip32 watchonly chains
1053 2014-03-03 09:43:23 coeus has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1054 2014-03-03 09:43:36 <sipa> and even better, automatic p2sh of several bip32 chains
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1056 2014-03-03 09:43:42 <sipa> would be awesome
1057 2014-03-03 09:43:55 <sipa> and perhaps cleaner than the current watchonly code
1058 2014-03-03 09:44:11 <sipa> though a large part would be shared, i guess
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1060 2014-03-03 09:44:40 <wumpus> I believe CodeShark is doing that
1061 2014-03-03 09:44:53 <CodeShark> indeed I am :)
1062 2014-03-03 09:45:07 <CodeShark> I've actually already done that
1063 2014-03-03 09:45:14 <wumpus> including the p2sh part?
1064 2014-03-03 09:45:14 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea thats what they want, automatic p2sh of multiple bip32 chains.
1065 2014-03-03 09:45:25 <CodeShark> but I'm reworking it a bit to allow a more flexible hierarchy
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1069 2014-03-03 09:45:53 <gmaxwell> there is also a web implementation of this.. in any case, for that kind of thing you'd want to watchadd an extended redeemscript. (one that has bip32 pubkeys in it)
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1071 2014-03-03 09:46:32 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: what about satisfaction flexiblity.
1072 2014-03-03 09:46:32 <CodeShark> for a working implementation, https://github.com/ciphrex/CoinVault
1073 2014-03-03 09:46:48 <CodeShark> satisfaction flexibility?
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1076 2014-03-03 09:48:10 <gmaxwell> e.g. the demand here was for A&&B||(A||B&&2-of-3(C,D,E))   basically both operators OR one of the operators and two of three semitrusted third parties. ::ducks::
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1079 2014-03-03 09:49:00 <CodeShark> wouldn't that require a nonstandard script?
1080 2014-03-03 09:49:04 buhbuh has joined
1081 2014-03-03 09:49:13 <gmaxwell> sadly I don't see any obvious way to really make a rational rule for encoding that stuff beyond saying how many keys there are total and a karnaugh map. :P
1082 2014-03-03 09:49:23 <gmaxwell> yea so? we can add scripts to the standard set at an time you know.
1083 2014-03-03 09:49:33 <gmaxwell> (also pools don't really care)
1084 2014-03-03 09:50:20 <anton000> with:  OP_HASH160 b472a266d0bd89c13706a4132ccfb16f7c3b9fcb OP_EQUAL  <-- so anyone can spend as long as they have scripSig correcthorsebatterystaple  ?
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1087 2014-03-03 09:50:41 <CodeShark> from my experience working with this stuff, it's too complicated usabilitywise to allow for arbitrary satisfaction for each specific script - you need to select a set of master keychains and then apply a common satisfaction policy to the set
1088 2014-03-03 09:51:09 <CodeShark> at this point I've only fully implemented m-of-n
1089 2014-03-03 09:51:16 <CodeShark> globally defined on a set of keychains
1090 2014-03-03 09:51:24 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I agree. e.g. spefiy that A B C D E  are extended public keys, and then have a single satisfyablity rule for the wallet over them.
1091 2014-03-03 09:51:36 <CodeShark> that's how CoinVault works :)
1092 2014-03-03 09:51:53 <gmaxwell> right and I was asking if you thought of or had done anything more complex than m of n
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1095 2014-03-03 09:52:16 <CodeShark> not yet - it's hard enough to properly apply m-of-n at this point
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1097 2014-03-03 09:52:39 <CodeShark> we're talking a significant usage learning curve, let alone the implementation hurdles
1098 2014-03-03 09:52:55 <gmaxwell> At least I think that $random-rule is no harder beyond the specification, the rest of the procedure is the same.
1099 2014-03-03 09:53:06 <gmaxwell> "go collect signature, young lad"
1100 2014-03-03 09:53:07 tarix_jp has quit (Quit: tarix_jp)
1101 2014-03-03 09:53:11 gfhxc has joined
1102 2014-03-03 09:53:21 <CodeShark> I actually think implementing arbitrary satisfiability is *easier* than coming up with a good usability model for typical applications :)
1103 2014-03-03 09:54:04 <gmaxwell> I don't know that it changes the usability at all, other than the UI just needs to tell you what signatures remaining would satisfy it.
1104 2014-03-03 09:54:21 <gmaxwell> but you've actually done ui for this, I have not.
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1106 2014-03-03 09:54:55 <CodeShark> well, if we're planning on relaying these types of transactions I'll start thinking about how to allow for such policies
1107 2014-03-03 09:55:19 <CodeShark> right now the UI just has two fields - m and n :)
1108 2014-03-03 09:56:30 <CodeShark> perhaps for now we can just use a notation like the one you gave
1109 2014-03-03 09:56:51 <CodeShark> at least internally
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1112 2014-03-03 09:58:13 <CodeShark> I've found the most annoying thing so far to be the fact that some children of an extended key might not exist, although the probability for a specific child not existing is ~3.73446e-39
1113 2014-03-03 09:58:34 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: tricky part is efficient encoding in script, e.g. there isn't a unique encoding to script, and the most efficient one isn't the most obvious (E.g. no need to ever repeat a pubkey)
1114 2014-03-03 09:58:35 <CodeShark> so I'm now debating whether to even account for this case at all :)
1115 2014-03-03 09:59:10 <CodeShark> right, gmaxwell - I'd love to actually have a decent script compiler :)
1116 2014-03-03 09:59:20 <CodeShark> that can optimize
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1118 2014-03-03 09:59:39 <CodeShark> but it doesn't really seem worth doing unless we intend to relay these transactions
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1120 2014-03-03 10:00:16 <CodeShark> and since right now we're using such a tiny number of script types it doesn't seem worth the effort
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1122 2014-03-03 10:01:32 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: We'll relay it if there is an application able to use it. there is a cyclic problem here that I can't describe the isstandard rule without knowing what scripts it would support. :)
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1124 2014-03-03 10:02:11 <gmaxwell> but I don't think there would be any opposition to allowing fancier satisfaction rules, and everytime it seems I manage to get someone interested in multisig they want something slightly more complicated.
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1127 2014-03-03 10:02:34 <CodeShark> it seems like we have a serious bottleneck in development, then. in general, computer systems are designed by people who cannot possibly conceive of all the applications - the applications come later
1128 2014-03-03 10:03:02 <CodeShark> at least at a systems level
1129 2014-03-03 10:03:13 <wumpus> CodeShark: it's good that you're working on applications, feedback from that can be used to improve the rules
1130 2014-03-03 10:03:44 <CodeShark> by allowing more free usage of the bitcoin script, we encourage more developers to try to come up with good applications
1131 2014-03-03 10:03:56 <gmaxwell> but really, you should never let IsStandard guide you. We'll accomidate any sane usage.
1132 2014-03-03 10:03:57 <CodeShark> by restricting it, we've killed much of the incentive to experiment
1133 2014-03-03 10:04:11 <wumpus> CodeShark: also you can get around isstandard by submitting directly to pools, it shouldn't hold you back
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1137 2014-03-03 10:04:43 <CodeShark> not all pools support nonstandard scripts - you might be waiting a long time before confirmation
1138 2014-03-03 10:04:51 <wumpus> well on testnet all the experimentation is possible, and that's where it should be happening in the first place
1139 2014-03-03 10:04:53 <gmaxwell> you can say that, and yet usage of the stuff that is allowed is zilch. In the long term I hope we'll improve that, in the short term we need to be prudent to consider that attacks or damage to forward compatiblity we open up.
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1142 2014-03-03 10:05:39 <CodeShark> by having to hardcode specifically allowed script types, we've essentially negated any benefit that could come from having a scripting language
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1145 2014-03-03 10:05:40 <sipa> well you can send *TO* nonstandard p2sh all you like
1146 2014-03-03 10:06:11 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: already don't have to hard code "specifically" allowed, e.g. the n of m stuff opens over a range.
1147 2014-03-03 10:06:24 <CodeShark> right, as sipa says sending isn't a problem
1148 2014-03-03 10:06:26 <CodeShark> it's redeeming them
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1150 2014-03-03 10:06:48 <CodeShark> and I would like to see p2sh become standard for to
1151 2014-03-03 10:06:51 <sipa> CodeShark: i agree partially, but the ability to just flip a policy to add a new script type is vastly easier than hardforking...
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1155 2014-03-03 10:08:35 <gmaxwell> figuring out what the minimum safe IsStandard is something that needs to be done, I don't know if anyone of us has given it much though. It needs to still block the obvious malleabiltiy abuses as well as forward compatiblity abuses (e.g. using the NOP op_codes, or tx version)
1156 2014-03-03 10:09:02 <CodeShark> so then perhaps the best way to move forward with this signature policy thing is to write up a few examples of specific scripts
1157 2014-03-03 10:09:53 <CodeShark> the second step would be a tool that can transform human-readable expressions to script and vice versa
1158 2014-03-03 10:10:01 <CodeShark> a compiler of sorts
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1160 2014-03-03 10:10:33 <_andares> have there been previous attempts at a "script"ing language?
1161 2014-03-03 10:10:34 <gmaxwell> well if your intermediate step is just a truth table, then you can abstract the specification and the optimization.
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1163 2014-03-03 10:11:02 <gmaxwell> and a truthtable is something that could be easily seralized an in extended public key that describes the wallet.
1164 2014-03-03 10:11:16 <CodeShark> right
1165 2014-03-03 10:11:16 <gmaxwell> though perhaps not the best idea if the optimization isn't unique.
1166 2014-03-03 10:11:25 <CodeShark> yeah, we need uniqueness
1167 2014-03-03 10:11:41 <gmaxwell> so it might just need to be a redeemscript with template public keys.
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1170 2014-03-03 10:12:10 <gmaxwell> (in the seralization at least, a truthtable would be a fine intermediate language)
1171 2014-03-03 10:12:21 <_andares> why do scripts have to uniquely express a truth table?
1172 2014-03-03 10:12:35 <CodeShark> because different scripts produce completely different hashes
1173 2014-03-03 10:12:38 <gmaxwell> because you need do be damn sure to have multiple systems come up with the same script.
1174 2014-03-03 10:12:44 <gmaxwell> or otherwise they won't see the transactions.
1175 2014-03-03 10:13:18 <_andares> are the scripts included in the signed bit of the transaction?
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1177 2014-03-03 10:13:30 <_andares> I guess they can't be, if the scripts reference the hash of the signature or something.
1178 2014-03-03 10:13:37 <CodeShark> the script hash identifies the script that will be redeeming the output
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1180 2014-03-03 10:14:07 <_andares> and the script hash is included in the signature?
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1182 2014-03-03 10:14:19 <CodeShark> no, the script hash is send in the transaction output
1183 2014-03-03 10:14:31 <CodeShark> the hash of the script necessary to redeem that output
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1187 2014-03-03 10:15:45 <CodeShark> we want a way to specify keys and a policy as input and get a unique redeemscript as output
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1190 2014-03-03 10:16:47 <CodeShark> the hash of the redeemscript is then used to send bitcoins to the account
1191 2014-03-03 10:17:43 <CodeShark> the policy can be represented, as gmaxwell says, as a truth table
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1193 2014-03-03 10:18:12 <_andares> yes, I suppose so
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1195 2014-03-03 10:18:24 <_andares> although it might be a very large truth table
1196 2014-03-03 10:18:58 <_andares> but it would be simple to generate a truth table for any arbitrary script
1197 2014-03-03 10:19:14 <_andares> you'd just have to run the script symbolically, trying both sides of every branch
1198 2014-03-03 10:19:26 <_andares> like a standard symbolic execution engine (e.g. Pex)
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1203 2014-03-03 10:21:23 <CodeShark> going from script to truth table is in some sense simpler because you don't need to worry about optimization and uniqueness
1204 2014-03-03 10:21:55 <gmaxwell> _andares: we're only taking about a narrow subset of script.
1205 2014-03-03 10:22:02 <_andares> oh.
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1207 2014-03-03 10:22:12 <_andares> I think it is also possible to do this for any script, as well
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1209 2014-03-03 10:22:31 <_andares> but it may be computationally expensive
1210 2014-03-03 10:22:39 <gmaxwell> and the truth table cannot be bigger than 2^{pubkeys} size, and the limit of 520 bytes in p2sh means that it's limited to 2^16 or so tops.
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1214 2014-03-03 10:23:06 <_andares> are pubkeys the only inputs to the script?
1215 2014-03-03 10:23:15 <CodeShark> no, signatures are
1216 2014-03-03 10:23:21 <_andares> er, signatures rather
1217 2014-03-03 10:23:24 <CodeShark> yes
1218 2014-03-03 10:23:26 <gmaxwell> _andares: lol. if you've got a few spare universes, considering we can do arith and feed the outputs into cryptographic hashes.
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1221 2014-03-03 10:24:30 <_andares> gmaxwell: right, but the execution engine doesn't actually evaluate any hashes or do any arithmetic.
1222 2014-03-03 10:24:35 <gmaxwell> ...
1223 2014-03-03 10:24:38 <gmaxwell> yes it does.
1224 2014-03-03 10:24:49 <_andares> the script -> truth table converter engine, I mean
1225 2014-03-03 10:24:59 <_andares> the engine which, given a script, produces a symbolic truth table
1226 2014-03-03 10:25:01 <gmaxwell> or just even a OP_ADD PUSH_42 OP_EQUAL OP_VERIFY ...  and you've got like 32 billion ways to satisfy that alone.
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1230 2014-03-03 10:25:37 <airbreather> sounds like an awfully big truth table
1231 2014-03-03 10:25:42 <_andares> the truth table is symbolic.. it'd be of the form (x1, x2, x3, x4) -> SUCCESS or (x1', x2', x3', x4') -> FAILURE
1232 2014-03-03 10:25:47 <gmaxwell> (er 32 billion sounded to much like an actual number tha actual number is 4 billion)
1233 2014-03-03 10:25:53 <_andares> where x_i are logical (symbolic) constraints
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1235 2014-03-03 10:26:19 <_andares> so in the example you gave, it'd be (stack_0 == hash) -> SUCCESS
1236 2014-03-03 10:26:20 <_andares> one entry
1237 2014-03-03 10:26:27 <_andares> where stack_0 and hash are symbolic values
1238 2014-03-03 10:26:27 <gmaxwell> okay this coversation has become a waste of time. In any case what codeshark and I were talking about was a narrow parameterization over pubkeys, nor generallizing all finite state machines.
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1240 2014-03-03 10:27:19 <CodeShark> yeah, we're specifically talking about a script type that just checks which pubkeys we have signatures for, whether that subset of pubkeys satisfies the policy, and verifies the signatures
1241 2014-03-03 10:27:40 <_andares> ah okay, sorry to interrupt the discussion
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1243 2014-03-03 10:30:01 <CodeShark> the policy can be expressed as a subset of the powerset of the pubkeys
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1246 2014-03-03 10:31:56 <CodeShark> we could also use m-of-n as a primitive, I suppose
1247 2014-03-03 10:32:06 <Diablo-D3> [05:25:17] <gmaxwell> (er 32 billion sounded to much like an actual number tha actual number is 4 billion)
1248 2014-03-03 10:32:11 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: lol 32 bits.
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1250 2014-03-03 10:32:24 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yea, efficiency requires it I think.
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1252 2014-03-03 10:32:56 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: btw, are there ANY exchanges that will willingly submit to third party audits?
1253 2014-03-03 10:33:28 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: Im asking because this is something the foundation might want to look into addressing
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1255 2014-03-03 10:33:48 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: bitcoin is rather dead in the water if theres no useful US exchange
1256 2014-03-03 10:33:57 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: and I dont want to see 4 years of my hard work go up in flames
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1259 2014-03-03 10:35:17 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: sounds kind of OT for -dev
1260 2014-03-03 10:35:22 <olalonde> has anyone written a compiler for bitcoin scripts?
1261 2014-03-03 10:35:51 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: the foundation has no channel
1262 2014-03-03 10:36:04 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: so yes, its very on topic for -dev
1263 2014-03-03 10:36:07 <wumpus> olalonde: AFAIK no one has even defined a useful human-friendly language yet for that, let alone a compiler
1264 2014-03-03 10:36:22 <olalonde> wumpus: ok , just wondering :)
1265 2014-03-03 10:36:24 <wumpus> olalonde: but if you read back there are some ideas...
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1267 2014-03-03 10:36:38 <airbreather> CodeShark / gmaxwell: So if I'm understanding this right, are we trying to find a way to create something like an m-of-n P2SH transaction that the receiver can identify as "theirs" without having to produce the original script hash?
1268 2014-03-03 10:36:48 <olalonde> wumpus: I have started working on one just for fun but I've never written a compiler before so it will be pretty crappy
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1271 2014-03-03 10:37:29 <olalonde> wumpus: so far, the parsing part kind of works.. compiling is still work in progress
1272 2014-03-03 10:37:41 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: maybe most of the interesting options can be logically expressed as nested n-of-m
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1275 2014-03-03 10:38:00 <airbreather> a.k.a. "I'll broadcast an unsolicited P2SH transaction that meets this standard policy, and you can figure out that it's yours"?
1276 2014-03-03 10:38:03 <wumpus> olalonde: well if you define a useful language first and give some examples, I'm sure people will pick it up and write good compilers
1277 2014-03-03 10:38:20 <CodeShark> airbreather: that would also be nice but isn't necessary for the immediate issue we're discussing
1278 2014-03-03 10:38:37 <CodeShark> for now let's assume the receiver was the one who issued the script hash in the first place
1279 2014-03-03 10:38:40 <airbreather> OK, more scrolling for me.
1280 2014-03-03 10:38:42 <wumpus> olalonde: I do think a higher-level language is important eventually to wider adoption of scripts
1281 2014-03-03 10:38:57 <gmaxwell> airbreather: and there is no way to identify it as your short of also producing the script.
1282 2014-03-03 10:40:09 <olalonde> wumpus: I'm using a Javascript like syntax... and it's pretty close to the actual script language except easier to read/write if you are not used to stack based languages
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1284 2014-03-03 10:40:16 <olalonde> wumpus: https://github.com/olalonde/compiler/blob/master/test/source
1285 2014-03-03 10:40:37 <Diablo-D3> aaaaaand gmaxwell doesnt respond
1286 2014-03-03 10:40:44 <Diablo-D3> he probably has me on ignore
1287 2014-03-03 10:40:55 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: nested m-of-n seems like a reasonable approach
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1291 2014-03-03 10:42:05 <CodeShark> for the sake of space efficiency, we probably don't want to be repeating the full 33-byte pubkeys if they occur in multiple places
1292 2014-03-03 10:42:13 <uiop> what does the "nested" here mean? (like as in, (2,3) of [(3,4),(1,2),(1,1)] ?)
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1294 2014-03-03 10:42:18 <CodeShark> so perhaps the beginning of the script should be an index of some sort
1295 2014-03-03 10:42:33 <CodeShark> or hmm - stack machine
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1297 2014-03-03 10:43:21 <CodeShark> nested would be something like 2-of(pubkey1, 2-of(pubkey2, pubkey3, pubkey4))
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1299 2014-03-03 10:43:56 <uiop> ah, hmm
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1301 2014-03-03 10:46:22 <uiop> a boolean function minimizer would probably be required for sanity..
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1303 2014-03-03 10:46:54 <wumpus> so gmaxwell's ealier  A&&B||(A||B&&2-of-3(C,D,E))    would be   1-of(2-of(A,B),2-of(1-of(A,B),2-of-3(C,D,E)))   :p
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1306 2014-03-03 10:48:45 <wumpus> it is slightly easier to understand than a big logic formula
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1323 2014-03-03 11:16:52 * uiop is just now recovering from the tangent all this talk launched him on ...
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1350 2014-03-03 11:49:01 <nicksavers> Is there any serious proposal to reduce the blockchain size in the future? Would a solution to replace the genesis block with a new one in which all addresses still containing funds at a certain checkpoint get a coinbase transaction be off the table?
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1355 2014-03-03 11:56:01 <wumpus> you could already do that: package up the UTXO set at a certain point and only process the chain from there  ... just another compromise trust-wise
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1367 2014-03-03 12:10:04 <sipa> nicksavers: reduce the blockchain size... no, that's not possible
1368 2014-03-03 12:10:18 <sipa> nicksavers: reduce how much of it you need to store, that's a different question
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1372 2014-03-03 12:12:09 <nicksavers> could you hint as to why that would fail?
1373 2014-03-03 12:12:51 <kuzetsa> it can't easily be 100% provably zero-trust without having the entire chain
1374 2014-03-03 12:13:20 <kuzetsa> but that's just my own understanding of the logic for why the entire chain is needed on each full node
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1376 2014-03-03 12:13:56 <sipa> kuzetsa: exactly
1377 2014-03-03 12:14:11 <nicksavers> Wouldn't any client that uses the new genesis block be compatible with the old network?
1378 2014-03-03 12:14:59 <sipa> nicksavers: the blockchain is not "the state of all ledgers", it's the authoritative history that led to it
1379 2014-03-03 12:15:09 <anton000> we need entire chain to prove where each coin originated from
1380 2014-03-03 12:15:09 <kuzetsa> nicksavers: depends on how it was imlpemented... it seems plausible that some method of implementing such an idea might be possible, but it starts to drift away from being zero trust
1381 2014-03-03 12:15:18 <sipa> nicksavers: every full node already has a database with just what is necessaery for validating new blocks
1382 2014-03-03 12:15:23 <sipa> nicksavers: it's a few 100 MB
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1384 2014-03-03 12:15:52 <sipa> nicksavers: the problem is that i can't just give that database to you, as you have no way of validating that i'm not lying, and claiming my own balance is higher than it is
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1386 2014-03-03 12:16:05 <sipa> nicksavers: you need the blockchain not for that database, but to prove that it is correct
1387 2014-03-03 12:16:16 <sipa> nicksavers: there is, however, no actual need for storing that blockchain
1388 2014-03-03 12:16:23 <kuzetsa> yeah, sipa!!! go brains!!!
1389 2014-03-03 12:16:24 <wumpus> sipa: except serving it to others
1390 2014-03-03 12:16:30 <sipa> wumpus: exacylyu
1391 2014-03-03 12:16:32 <sipa> *exactly
1392 2014-03-03 12:16:36 <kuzetsa> (just said the exact reasons for what I was thinking, and qualified it with facts and shit)
1393 2014-03-03 12:16:48 <anton000> lol
1394 2014-03-03 12:17:04 <nicksavers> can't everybody validate the new genesis block based on the old blockchain?
1395 2014-03-03 12:17:18 <nicksavers> thereby slowly phasing it out
1396 2014-03-03 12:17:33 <wumpus> your node could throw away the blockchain the minute it comes in, apart from the UTXO set and the transactions it's interested in for other reasons (like the wallet)... that's sort of what SPV nodes do, except that they don't even receive the whole block chain because the (bloom) filtering can be done on the sending node
1397 2014-03-03 12:17:57 <wumpus> eh, SPV don't even maintain a UTXO set
1398 2014-03-03 12:17:59 <sipa> nicksavers: that's what we already do, for *every* block
1399 2014-03-03 12:18:06 <sipa> nicksavers: we don't touch the blockchain data
1400 2014-03-03 12:18:13 <sipa> only the summary built from all previous blocks
1401 2014-03-03 12:18:25 <nicksavers> alright, got it.
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1404 2014-03-03 12:19:18 <anton000> 19G currently
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1406 2014-03-03 12:20:03 <sipa> the utxo set (=those summaries) are some 330M
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1408 2014-03-03 12:20:26 <anton000> 352m on mine
1409 2014-03-03 12:20:34 <Persopolis> what's the overhead of storing blockchain in berkley DB
1410 2014-03-03 12:20:38 <wumpus> so, peanuts
1411 2014-03-03 12:20:57 <sipa> Persopolis: we don't store the blockchain in BDB
1412 2014-03-03 12:21:00 <sipa> and never did
1413 2014-03-03 12:21:10 <Persopolis> just flat files?
1414 2014-03-03 12:21:18 <wumpus> yes
1415 2014-03-03 12:21:19 <sipa> up to 0.7, the block index and transaction index were in BDB
1416 2014-03-03 12:21:26 <sipa> while the actual blocks were flat files
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1418 2014-03-03 12:21:46 <sipa> since 0.8, there is no transaction index anymore, but the block index and chainstate (which replaces the txindex) is in leveldb
1419 2014-03-03 12:21:54 <wumpus> raw files with the blocks in them in network format
1420 2014-03-03 12:21:58 <Persopolis> just trying to work out how 14.x GB of blockchain data is translating to 20GB+
1421 2014-03-03 12:22:16 <sipa> Persopolis: there are undo files too
1422 2014-03-03 12:22:20 <sipa> which are 2-3 GB
1423 2014-03-03 12:22:26 <wumpus> (that's also why you can concatenate them to a bootstrap.dat to be used to bootstrap new nodes)
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1425 2014-03-03 12:24:33 <Persopolis> looking at very basic model of blockchain size and it's showing about 45GB raw by begining of 2016
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1427 2014-03-03 12:25:15 <anton000> how many connections do you guys usally allow to your bitocind instance? and idead on average monthly bandwidth use?
1428 2014-03-03 12:25:45 <anton000> *ideas
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1437 2014-03-03 12:37:53 <shadylog> where can I find the full log of the solvency proof and/or hypothetical exchange that maintains a full blockchain but centralized and mined only by the exchange's server?
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1439 2014-03-03 12:41:14 <Persopolis> compression only saves 25% - not a particularly high saving, but higher than what I would have guessed it would be given the use of crypto in the data
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1445 2014-03-03 12:48:14 <wumpus> Persopolis: looking at the hexdump of the block files it's explainable: islands of random looking data but also small spans of 00 and ff and some other repeating structures
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1451 2014-03-03 12:50:43 <Persopolis> wumpus: yep came to the same conclusion as I look at block files in hex viewer :) - challenging thing to address, but speeds of people's internet connections are going up exponentially too
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1454 2014-03-03 12:52:56 <wumpus> compressing the blk00118.dat (one-to-last) block file with gzip -9 yield about 20% compression for compressing the entire file, a practical compression scheme would compress per-block to still make it possible to retrieve individual blocks
1455 2014-03-03 12:53:32 <wumpus> not really worth the extra complexity for so little gain
1456 2014-03-03 12:54:07 <Persopolis> 100% agree - but then 45GB of data per new install is a lot of data both for the source and destinations
1457 2014-03-03 12:54:28 <Persopolis> should have read, source(s) and destination
1458 2014-03-03 12:54:58 greenspa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1459 2014-03-03 12:55:10 <wumpus> yeah, running a full node is not for everyone
1460 2014-03-03 12:56:13 <kinlo> aren't we going to implement pruning?  ie keep only the last 2000 blocks or so?
1461 2014-03-03 12:56:27 <Persopolis> indeed - guessing SVP is an area to concentrate on as btc moved towards mainstream
1462 2014-03-03 12:56:52 <wumpus> well if you want to store only the last 2000 blocks you could
1463 2014-03-03 12:56:52 <kinlo> in the end, headers + last 2000 block uxto's + last 2000 blocks should be enough for most cases
1464 2014-03-03 12:57:10 <kinlo> where 2000 would be configurable
1465 2014-03-03 12:57:29 <wumpus> read a few screens back it was explained
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1467 2014-03-03 13:00:11 <wumpus> the only reason for storing the whole block chain is for serving it to others, it helps the P2P network
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1475 2014-03-03 13:03:35 <wumpus> I'm not sure how useful a node would be that would only serve the last 2000 blocks; it would not be useful to new installs (then again, they could use a blockchain torrent) but nodes that are catching up could use them
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1478 2014-03-03 13:06:26 <nicksavers> As for that idea, my understand is that any new genesis block would need to reach consensus before old blockchain data could be discarded.
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1484 2014-03-03 13:13:41 <wumpus> no, there cannot ever be a new genesis block
1485 2014-03-03 13:14:06 <wumpus> that was explained, seems we're stuck in a loop
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1488 2014-03-03 13:17:10 <lnovy> new genesis is like a hard-hard-hard-hard-fork, not going to happend ever.
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1498 2014-03-03 13:30:49 <nicksavers> sipa explained that there could be no single authority giving it out.. which I agree with. However, if every client had the ability to validate this new genesis block based on the full blockchain from first genesis up until that point, then perhaps after enough time has passed, people could trust it.
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1502 2014-03-03 13:31:11 <CodeShark> ?
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1507 2014-03-03 13:31:39 <CodeShark> sorry, was doing something else and just saw "if every client had the ability to validate this new genesis block based on the full blockchain" and my WTF alarm went off
1508 2014-03-03 13:32:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|010000000354b55b62a934d53afff6cdba91cef68cb7359c8ae81b6c278f94260b011e31d4000000006b48304502210098b13d4f16108a6f98d5e2fe301bceba779c81818617762bcfd01f8947cd42c702204c19cbed35f10fcb1f30946b6113afb13b3e41afa7d9fafc8ab0f092af7f83060121026f0f3588651577f5a7c7d2a9b63fb4e8c36f890200e4e912212785e6408b53eaffffffffacad5d70c0c164a171267dfdc9bf40ce0cc94c57b413eb015eebe3
1509 2014-03-03 13:32:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|c413cef3e2000000006b483045022100d0d5812b20b63bd932e916691b7cf2c082240184bcd29fbc1f0ff3d08fa853770220374397ee2bae2ddfcb0ba1e0b47f3726400e404295b2536724f1bae3e748d3830121026f0f3588651577f5a7c7d2a9b63fb4e8c36f890200e4e912212785e6408b53eaffffffff6d63ce3d0532a8999d7696953786e76949f82945fabad794e29a6c7df3e6f712000000006b483045022100ee03f9f8ddc6b39cd0627a5f4fac02ac
1510 2014-03-03 13:32:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|3bcac87abef8d0955334031f27fd06c10220056b8a7674401485c9b0e7da5a645a62ab0d6afb22e631fe6a6bc96e709aea470121026f0f3588651577f5a7c7d2a9b63fb4e8c36f890200e4e912212785e6408b53eaffffffff01d0d1137e030000001976a9149439ec7397964fe701de42a8aa9361a1263d532088ac01000000
1511 2014-03-03 13:32:09 <wumpus> then it wouldn't be a genesis block would it? the genesis block is the first block, ever
1512 2014-03-03 13:32:32 <CodeShark> new genesis block = no block chain exists yet
1513 2014-03-03 13:32:34 phantomcircuit has joined
1514 2014-03-03 13:32:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Eep
1515 2014-03-03 13:32:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sorry!
1516 2014-03-03 13:32:43 <nicksavers> it would be the genesis block of a compatible parallel blockchain
1517 2014-03-03 13:32:54 <wumpus> you can rename any block to be your genesis block and pretend that anything before it doesn't exist, of course, but then you need to trust someone to give you the correct state at that point
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1520 2014-03-03 13:35:31 <nicksavers> The current blockchain gives you that trust .. you can use the current blockchain to give trust to the new blockchain
1521 2014-03-03 13:35:38 <wumpus> as I said many messages ago, that would be just another compromise with regard to trust, you've never seen the blocks before it so you have to take someones word (in the form of a UTXO set) for it
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1523 2014-03-03 13:37:31 <nicksavers> no you should verify that UTXO set against eh original blockchain... after that is done, you could run a client using only that new blockchain. If enough people start trusting the new client, there will be consonsus on the new blockchain.
1524 2014-03-03 13:37:39 <wumpus> sure, you can verify it, but then you need the whole chain again
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1527 2014-03-03 13:38:18 <nicksavers> only during a transition phase where everybody can verify it.
1528 2014-03-03 13:38:39 <wumpus> but how to verify that everyone verified it?
1529 2014-03-03 13:38:48 <wumpus> it's elephants all the way down
1530 2014-03-03 13:38:51 <denisx> 0.9rc2 crashes for me on osx 10.9.2 instantly
1531 2014-03-03 13:39:07 <wumpus> denisx: known issue: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3778
1532 2014-03-03 13:39:14 <denisx> ok
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1540 2014-03-03 13:45:25 <nicksavers> wumpus: you don't - everybody needs to make that decision for themselves. But currently we all have consensus on what the current genesis block is, I'm thinking the bitcoin-devs, users and miners can come together in a crisis situation and decide which (sufficiently verified block) to use as the new genesis if necessary.
1541 2014-03-03 13:46:11 <wumpus> there was someone working on committing to UTXO states in block coinbases, no idea what happened to that
1542 2014-03-03 13:46:20 <wumpus> a crisis situation?
1543 2014-03-03 13:46:26 <Persopolis> nicksavers - for what purpose?
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1548 2014-03-03 13:48:32 <wumpus> nicksavers, if you want to start from an trusted UTXO snapshot you can do that all by yourself, you don't need anyone else's help
1549 2014-03-03 13:48:41 <nicksavers> less storage, bandwidth needed and to get rid of unnecessary validation processing, in order to make it more accessible to people to have a copy of the full blockchain.... in order to promote decentralisation
1550 2014-03-03 13:48:53 <anton000> ??
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1552 2014-03-03 13:49:30 <nicksavers> wumpus: I think all everybody needs to agree on is a block# to take their own UTXO snapshot
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1554 2014-03-03 13:49:53 <anton000> a hard fork.. what happens to those running old clients?
1555 2014-03-03 13:50:08 <nicksavers> I think they would still be compatible
1556 2014-03-03 13:50:12 <wumpus> nicksavers: but I mean, why involve others at all? just make your own UTXO snapshot which you can trust yourself because you made it yourself :p
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1558 2014-03-03 13:50:25 <Persopolis> nicksavers - plenty are willing to run a full node, and the joe public who doesn't want to, can use an SVP type client
1559 2014-03-03 13:50:30 Emzy has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
1560 2014-03-03 13:50:30 <nicksavers> to make it easier for people
1561 2014-03-03 13:50:43 <nicksavers> ok, I'll stop now. Thanks for the thought
1562 2014-03-03 13:50:43 <anton000> dont see easier here
1563 2014-03-03 13:50:56 <anton000> prollw ould save badwidth
1564 2014-03-03 13:50:59 <anton000> data space
1565 2014-03-03 13:51:04 <anton000> *prolly
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1572 2014-03-03 13:52:45 <Persopolis> in fiat environment, banks keep transaction records for a minimum of 7 years
1573 2014-03-03 13:53:39 olalonde has joined
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1575 2014-03-03 13:54:18 <olalonde> are there any checks made on scripts to check if they are valid?
1576 2014-03-03 13:54:27 <olalonde> not for relaying but just validating
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1582 2014-03-03 14:00:52 <sipa> kinlo: you cannot prune utxos by age
1583 2014-03-03 14:01:12 <sipa> kinlo: as you won't know if you see an unknown input of it was missing or justnpruned
1584 2014-03-03 14:01:32 <sipa> kinlo: you can shard utxos though, like only maintain those with a particular prefix hash
1585 2014-03-03 14:01:41 <kinlo> sipa: isn't the uxto just the uxto for the latest block, with a rewind-database to transform it into the previous's block uxto?
1586 2014-03-03 14:01:46 <lnovy> you could shard by age also
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1588 2014-03-03 14:02:07 <sipa> kinlo: so what do you mean by "utxo for the last 2000 blocks"
1589 2014-03-03 14:02:20 <sipa> lnovy: no, because you don't know the age of something you pruned
1590 2014-03-03 14:02:29 <kinlo> uxto for the last block + rewind information to re-create the uxto for the previous blocks
1591 2014-03-03 14:02:54 <lnovy> sipa: i was pointing for some mechanism that would find younger utxo faster... like a cache of utxos
1592 2014-03-03 14:03:14 <lnovy> sipa: but no pruning of utxos in any case is possible
1593 2014-03-03 14:03:51 <wumpus> lnovy: but you always have to query all the shards to come up with a negative answer in that case
1594 2014-03-03 14:03:58 <sipa> lnovy: that opens up a nice dos attack for someone by spending many old coins
1595 2014-03-03 14:04:14 <sipa> kinlo: right, sure
1596 2014-03-03 14:04:15 <lnovy> sipa: which wouldn't last for long, does it?
1597 2014-03-03 14:04:39 <kinlo> sipa: I was under the impression that that was what is in the chainstate database, no?
1598 2014-03-03 14:05:31 <lnovy> wumpus: sharding was a bad term, sorry
1599 2014-03-03 14:06:08 <lnovy> I was thinking about RLU cache all the time...
1600 2014-03-03 14:06:13 <lnovy> LRU
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1602 2014-03-03 14:08:17 <lnovy> wumpus: there's nothing we could do about negative answers, the only speed up is possible for the possitive ones
1603 2014-03-03 14:08:38 <lnovy> er... utxos is the speedup for negative answers as it is :)
1604 2014-03-03 14:08:53 <wumpus> lnovy: well if you shard by hash prefix as sipa mentions, you know where to look, you only have to look in one place to get a negative answer
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1606 2014-03-03 14:09:22 <lnovy> wumpus: yeah, but that's just simple indexing then
1607 2014-03-03 14:09:35 <wumpus> lnovy: if you want to do that by age you need an additional index that maps the hashes to age
1608 2014-03-03 14:10:17 <lnovy> wumpus: sharding in this context is just a multilevel index
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1610 2014-03-03 14:10:25 <lnovy> (prefix sharding)
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1612 2014-03-03 14:11:04 <lnovy> i think of sharding as something to do with multi-host storage, not applicable here really.
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1636 2014-03-03 14:33:51 xman has joined
1637 2014-03-03 14:33:59 <xman> https://blockchain.info/zh-cn/address/128Fc3xedpDpfxp9eNn2h29JP6BwcteM8W  what's wrong with this address?
1638 2014-03-03 14:34:34 <lnovy> xman: what are you pointing at? I see no problem on the first sight
1639 2014-03-03 14:34:51 <xman> send first
1640 2014-03-03 14:34:56 mhanne has joined
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1644 2014-03-03 14:36:09 <lnovy> xman: that time is just a time when blockchain.info first get to know about tx, they are included in the same block, so no problem with this
1645 2014-03-03 14:36:47 TheBison has joined
1646 2014-03-03 14:36:47 <xman> oh,I see
1647 2014-03-03 14:37:12 eian has joined
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1649 2014-03-03 14:38:04 <lnovy> xman: but it could mean a possible doublespend try or something like that... which would have caused for the first transaction not to be relayed to blockchain.info and so it got to know about it from new block first
1650 2014-03-03 14:38:25 abishek has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1651 2014-03-03 14:40:46 <xman> yes,someome have an hour
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1676 2014-03-03 15:01:38 <eian> Andrew Miller in here?
1677 2014-03-03 15:02:08 <eian> I know you are here at the Financial Crypto conference with me but  I'm blind and can't read name tags lol
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1685 2014-03-03 15:23:54 <jgarzik> heh
1686 2014-03-03 15:24:01 <TD> good afternoon
1687 2014-03-03 15:24:07 <jgarzik> a horde of people asked me about Barbados conf, too
1688 2014-03-03 15:24:15 <eian> are you here? :)
1689 2014-03-03 15:24:18 <jgarzik> TD, are you in Barbados too?
1690 2014-03-03 15:24:22 <TD> nope
1691 2014-03-03 15:24:26 <TD> are you?
1692 2014-03-03 15:24:29 <jgarzik> eian, nope, nobody wanted to pay for the trip
1693 2014-03-03 15:24:31 <jgarzik> ^
1694 2014-03-03 15:24:37 <eian> :(
1695 2014-03-03 15:24:49 <eian> There is a bitcoin foundation meeting right next to my room
1696 2014-03-03 15:24:58 <eian> not sure what is going on in there
1697 2014-03-03 15:25:40 <jgarzik> Plotting to take over the world ;p
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1699 2014-03-03 15:25:50 <eian> that is what I figured
1700 2014-03-03 15:26:19 <eian> jgarzik, I am presenting my paper here on Thursday: http://www.bitcoinsecurity.org/2014/01/20/mapping-bitcoin-addresses-to-ips-hard-but-possible/
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1708 2014-03-03 15:32:38 <jgarzik> eian, groovy
1709 2014-03-03 15:33:20 <eian> there are a few bitcoin papers on Thursday and a Bitcoin workshop on Friday
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1716 2014-03-03 15:43:06 <t7> eian: i take it this won't work if you use an online service to relay transaction ?
1717 2014-03-03 15:43:25 * t7 should read it first
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1720 2014-03-03 15:43:46 <eian> t7, yes - our paper focused on low hanging fruit
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1724 2014-03-03 15:44:17 <eian> our conclusion says even discusses the limitations of our approach
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1734 2014-03-03 15:52:32 <t7> eian: thats pretty one oh one oh oh one one one oh oh one
1735 2014-03-03 15:53:25 <eian> was that morse core? 10100111001
1736 2014-03-03 15:53:34 <eian> code**
1737 2014-03-03 15:53:40 <Joric> did you see the last mtgox press release? "
1738 2014-03-03 15:53:43 <Joric> illegal access through the abuse of a bug in the bitcoin system"
1739 2014-03-03 15:54:03 <Joric> is it fixed already? i'm scared
1740 2014-03-03 15:54:09 <sipa> dude
1741 2014-03-03 15:54:11 <justanotheruser> Joric: I think they're still claiming that because it gives them some legal advantage
1742 2014-03-03 15:54:22 <eian> I thought it had something to do with them acting on unconfirmed transactions
1743 2014-03-03 15:54:24 <justanotheruser> Joric: there is no malleability bug in bitcoin
1744 2014-03-03 15:54:48 <sipa> the bitcoind wallet deals badly with malleability, but mtgox wasn't using that
1745 2014-03-03 15:54:52 mattco_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1746 2014-03-03 15:54:56 <Joric> the matter is it's official now %)
1747 2014-03-03 15:55:04 <sipa> they were just doing reissues of non confirming transactions
1748 2014-03-03 15:55:09 <sipa> which is just foolish
1749 2014-03-03 15:55:52 <justanotheruser> Hopefully malleability is eliminated in the next year or so
1750 2014-03-03 15:56:08 <sipa> unwanted malleability, maybe
1751 2014-03-03 15:56:28 <Joric> sipa, didn't you patch this malleability bug in the last beta?
1752 2014-03-03 15:56:39 <justanotheruser> Then we will be able to bring on the smart contracts
1753 2014-03-03 15:56:50 <Apocalyptic> <justanotheruser> Hopefully malleability is eliminated in the next year or so // there is no issue
1754 2014-03-03 15:56:53 <Joric> "bug" ofc, with braces
1755 2014-03-03 15:57:11 <justanotheruser> Apocalyptic: what do you mean?
1756 2014-03-03 15:57:23 <sipa> Joric: we improved the wallet's behaviour wrt double spends (which malleability is a special case of)
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1759 2014-03-03 15:57:28 <shesek> Apocalyptic, it does cause some issues... like pre-signing a refund tx as part of smart contracts and some other use-cases where the txid needs to be known ahead of time
1760 2014-03-03 15:57:41 <sipa> Joric: but that has nothing to do with mtgox, as they weren't using the bitcoind wallet at all
1761 2014-03-03 15:57:58 <justanotheruser> Removal of malleability is a feature, not a bug fix. The system behaves fine with malleability, but special transactions can be made with malleability eliminated
1762 2014-03-03 15:58:04 <jgarzik> Joric, The blockchain consensus mechanism was not impacted.  The blockchain removes all malleability anyway, and always has.  Don't get blown away by hysterical headlines...
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1764 2014-03-03 15:58:20 <Apocalyptic> "Removal of malleability is a feature, not a bug fix." << this
1765 2014-03-03 15:58:41 <Joric> i've seen their php code, http://pastebin.com/W8B3CGiN horrible, just horrible
1766 2014-03-03 15:58:43 <jgarzik> Transactions are naturally malleable, until confirmed in the blockchain.
1767 2014-03-03 15:58:52 <Joric> still blaming core developers
1768 2014-03-03 15:59:05 <Apocalyptic> Joric, yeah...
1769 2014-03-03 15:59:29 <sipa> Joric: presumably trying to shift legal liability away
1770 2014-03-03 15:59:32 <sipa> (bah)
1771 2014-03-03 16:00:00 <eian> where did you get this php - is this publicly available?
1772 2014-03-03 16:00:21 <Joric> eian, http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zeurx/alleged_mtgox_code_leaked_on_irc_node_by_russian/
1773 2014-03-03 16:00:34 <justanotheruser> it could be fake though
1774 2014-03-03 16:00:42 <Apocalyptic> does seem consistent
1775 2014-03-03 16:00:45 <eian> ah, ok
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1782 2014-03-03 16:02:05 <justanotheruser> 0)Sell all your bitcoins 1) Spend $1000 in man hours making a fake mtgox source code. 2) Claim you stole the AML KYC db along with the source code 3) Let price drop 4) Buy 5) ?? 6) Profit
1783 2014-03-03 16:02:34 <justanotheruser> Although, step 3 didn't really work out
1784 2014-03-03 16:02:38 <Joric> sadly price didn't drop much atm
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1789 2014-03-03 16:07:12 <nanotube> eian: heh, you're looking at a public pastebin, and asking if it is publicly available? :)
1790 2014-03-03 16:07:15 yubrew has joined
1791 2014-03-03 16:07:26 <nanotube> "is this really on my screen" ?
1792 2014-03-03 16:08:33 <anton000> lol
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1799 2014-03-03 16:12:50 <TD> Joric: is there any such thing as non-horrible PHP? this stuff looks relatively clean compared to a lot of stuff i've seen
1800 2014-03-03 16:12:59 <TD> Joric: the code leaks from black market reloaded were hilarious
1801 2014-03-03 16:13:55 <TD> i like line 1345 :/
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1803 2014-03-03 16:15:52 <Joric> too bad
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1807 2014-03-03 16:21:08 <TD> hmm i can't find where the tx was recreated/reissued
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1809 2014-03-03 16:21:58 <LyndsySimon> Hello all. I'm trying to implement Bitcoin's base58check function in Python, and haven't been able to find anything showing the expected results of the intermediate steps. Does someone have a link that shows the function broken down into steps with the anticipated values printed? How about a set of tests with inputs and their correct output?
1810 2014-03-03 16:22:10 <TD> possibly line 1490
1811 2014-03-03 16:22:35 <sipa> TD: it's potentially invoked from elsewhere
1812 2014-03-03 16:23:12 <jcorgan> LyndsySimon: check https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_version_1_Bitcoin_addresses
1813 2014-03-03 16:23:32 <LyndsySimon> jcorgan: Awesome! I have no idea how I didn't find that, because i've looked
1814 2014-03-03 16:23:32 <jcorgan> steps 5-9 are base58check encoding
1815 2014-03-03 16:23:58 <LyndsySimon> jcorgan: I've been using https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Base58Check_encoding
1816 2014-03-03 16:23:59 <jcorgan> the "testing suite" link at the bottom will show you the other direction
1817 2014-03-03 16:24:43 <jcorgan> beware, though, that the above doesn't document compressed public keys.  it's not strictly relevant to base58check encoding or decoding (which can and is used for many things), but just fyi
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1819 2014-03-03 16:25:48 <sturles> Joric: I have seen *much* worse PHP code than this.  I think it is pretty clean and readable compared to most PHP code I've seen.  The code confirms the observed behaviour of their system, btw.  But there is more to the leak than malleability.
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1825 2014-03-03 16:27:41 <TD> sturles: can you find the part where they auto-recreate transactions that don't confirm?
1826 2014-03-03 16:27:49 <sturles> But there seem to be some mix of using bitcoind commands and accounting for some transactions, and their own transactions for some.  And it isn't complete.
1827 2014-03-03 16:28:20 <jcorgan> LyndsySimon: there are likely dozens of similar implementations of base58check encoding on the web in Python
1828 2014-03-03 16:28:25 <jcorgan> here is my own: https://github.com/jmcorgan/bip32utils/blob/master/bip32utils/Base58.py
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1831 2014-03-03 16:29:08 <Joric> python is by far the easiest, built in big numbers
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1837 2014-03-03 16:31:30 <LyndsySimon> jcorgan: Thanks - I'll look at it. The code I've found so far was procedural and not Python3-compatible. I'm writing an OO library and parsing what I had so far was harder than writing from scratch.
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1840 2014-03-03 16:32:34 <jcorgan> i'm afraid i haven't much felt the need to step up to Python 3.0 compatibility myself
1841 2014-03-03 16:33:03 <LyndsySimon> jcorgan: Is your library on PyPI?
1842 2014-03-03 16:33:18 <denisx> I hope python3 does not go the way of perl6
1843 2014-03-03 16:33:28 <LyndsySimon> jcorgan: Python3 isn't really necessary IMO if you're writing things for yourself. I'm wanting to release it, so that's different.
1844 2014-03-03 16:33:34 <wumpus> python-bitcoinlib has an implementation as well (https://github.com/petertodd/python-bitcoinlib), dunno if it's py3 compatible
1845 2014-03-03 16:33:41 <jcorgan> bip32utils is not on PyPI, yet
1846 2014-03-03 16:34:00 <LyndsySimon> denisx: It won't. It's adoption has been slow in production, but everyone I know is using it for exploratory stuff. The scientific community has embraced it, too. It's entrenched.
1847 2014-03-03 16:34:03 <jcorgan> i need to get a little more proficient at the setup.py/packaging process
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1851 2014-03-03 16:35:41 <LyndsySimon> jcorgan: As do I. My own library hasn't been given a firm license yet, but I'm partial to MIT/BSD-style anyhow. I'll probably just include your stuff boily for now, and refactor it down later if and when I have more complete.
1852 2014-03-03 16:36:01 <LyndsySimon> jcorgan: Would you be open to relicensing it under another free license at some point in the future?
1853 2014-03-03 16:36:07 <LyndsySimon> (just in case)
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1856 2014-03-03 16:36:38 <jcorgan> bip32utils?  it's MIT licensed, does that create an issue for you?
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1861 2014-03-03 16:39:34 <LyndsySimon> jcorgan: I have no issues at all, I just haven't decided on a license. If I ended up going with BSD, or CC0, etc, I'd like the flexibility to do so.
1862 2014-03-03 16:40:07 <LyndsySimon> jcorgan: OTOH, the standard is public. If I needed to switch to another license, I could always come back later and refactor it out. Nevermind :)
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1867 2014-03-03 16:42:04 * LyndsySimon hates the legal aspects of software development.
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1870 2014-03-03 16:43:29 <jcorgan> i'm not a licensing guru, but my understanding is that MIT-licensed code can be pretty much incorporated without conflict into most other FOSS-licensed code; the only requirement is that the copyright notice be preserved.  The disclaimer of warranties might count as an unacceptable restriction for some of them perhaps.
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1873 2014-03-03 16:50:56 <dansmith_btc> Hi, is there a service which shows double spend attempts apart from bc.i ?
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1876 2014-03-03 16:55:42 <sturles> TD: Looks like they will call sendAmount (line 543) with an array of inputs, and then see sendAmount line 159 to 168.
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1878 2014-03-03 16:56:01 <sturles> TD: Will respend at least one input to invalidate the previous tx.
1879 2014-03-03 16:56:33 <sturles> The automation itself is probably done somewhere else.
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1909 2014-03-03 17:12:26 <gmaxwell> wumpus: last 2000 blocks? _very_ useful. it's a very significant fraction of all block requests— because of nodes that are online intermittently. Plus nodes need recent blocks for reorgs in any case... so by serving them you avoid overloading nodes with more of the history for free.
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1912 2014-03-03 17:16:15 <jgarzik> LyndsySimon, don't re-implement base58check in python, several have already done so :)
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1914 2014-03-03 17:16:37 <LyndsySimon> jgarzik: Thanks - I'm working with the code jcorgan gratiously supplied at the moment.
1915 2014-03-03 17:17:20 <LyndsySimon> jgarzik: It only needs to be made Python3-compatible to work with my code. I believe I have encoding working now, working on decoding.
1916 2014-03-03 17:17:49 <jcorgan> LyndsySimon: if you get the python3 changes working, i'd be happy to merge a pull request for those
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1918 2014-03-03 17:18:27 <LyndsySimon> jcorgan: I've forked your library and will be submitting the PR in an hour or so, hopefullly.
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1920 2014-03-03 17:18:44 <jcorgan> nice
1921 2014-03-03 17:18:46 <LyndsySimon> I've not spent enough time in Python3 yet to fully grok unicode strings vs. bytearrays.
1922 2014-03-03 17:18:51 <LyndsySimon> So it's taking a moment.
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1924 2014-03-03 17:19:15 <jcorgan> if you feel especially ambitious/generous, you could do the same for the rest of the code base :)
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1926 2014-03-03 17:19:50 <jcorgan> everywhere i use strings, i guess it would be more appropriate in python3 to use byte arrays
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1931 2014-03-03 17:24:25 <Michail1> I am getting a shit ton of transactions from 71.80.103.167:8333    Is this normal?
1932 2014-03-03 17:25:07 <Michail1> ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : free transaction rejected by rate limiter
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1935 2014-03-03 17:28:49 <jcorgan> nice that my EC2 onion node is back to 84 connections.  For whatever reason it had gotten as low as 30, from an initial equilibrium of about 105
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1939 2014-03-03 17:30:10 <jcorgan> hmm, lots of dust transactions being rejected
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1942 2014-03-03 17:31:38 <Persopolis> jcorgan how much does it cost yo to run on EC2?  bandwidth usage not too costly?
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1944 2014-03-03 17:33:01 <jcorgan> not really.  i use EC2 for a lot of things so the increment of running a hidden node is not that great.  i'd have to break out the bill and parse it to see what the actual amount is.
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1952 2014-03-03 17:34:25 <Persopolis> fair do if you are using it already - i know the 15GB of the free tier aint even close to being enough to do full sync :D
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1956 2014-03-03 17:36:13 <jcorgan> the initial sync requires more RAM than the free tier can provide.  mine is running on a m1.small, and it looks like it *might* be able to run on a t1.micro in the steady state.  but there are other things i do on the node.
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1958 2014-03-03 17:37:01 <Persopolis> can any of you help me out with the configure script / make file?
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1960 2014-03-03 17:38:47 <Persopolis> want to slip in -pg to build and link commands across the board, but it been 13 years since i played with make files :)
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1967 2014-03-03 17:41:48 <Michail1> jcorgan - how much ram do they provide?
1968 2014-03-03 17:42:29 <jcorgan> t1.micro is ~700MB, m1.small and m1.medium are both 1.7GB
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1970 2014-03-03 17:42:50 <wumpus> gmaxwell: interesting, so there may be a use in a node that maintains blocks in a circular buffer and only serves the latest, would be easier to run such a thing on ARM boxes or smaller VPSes
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1972 2014-03-03 17:43:10 <Michail1> pi was fine with a sync.  512mb  (although took weeks)
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1977 2014-03-03 17:44:01 <wumpus> Persopolis: something like ./configure LDFLAGS="-pg" CPPFLAGS="-pg -O" 
1978 2014-03-03 17:44:23 <Persopolis> thanks wumpus
1979 2014-03-03 17:44:38 <jcorgan> not sure why, but with t1.micro it kept hitting the OOM killer.  Right now in steady state with 85 connections the resident memory is 550MB.
1980 2014-03-03 17:44:41 Alina-malina has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1981 2014-03-03 17:44:47 <jcorgan> for bitcoind
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1985 2014-03-03 17:45:25 <wumpus> Michail1: hah a raspberri pi is really low end, I have a few 4-core ARM boxes that may be good for running nodes, but attaching a large external HDD kind of defeats the purpose
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1987 2014-03-03 17:46:09 <jcorgan> this is 0.9.0rc1, btw; should get rc2 up and running
1988 2014-03-03 17:46:25 <Michail1> wumpus - I have 3 pi's now running full node (obviously as a concept - fun).   I am now looking up on doing the same with with the RK3188 (mk809)
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1991 2014-03-03 17:48:00 <wallet42> Michail1: how long does the block verification takes?
1992 2014-03-03 17:48:28 Alina-malina has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1993 2014-03-03 17:48:40 <wallet42> Michail1: what version are you running, im vert inertested tell me more :)
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1996 2014-03-03 17:49:41 <wumpus> Michail1: mine have i.mx6 (cubox-i)
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1998 2014-03-03 17:50:01 <jcorgan> with EC2 m1.small and whatever connectivity amazon provides to the world from the us-west datacenter, a full sync from scratch took less than a day, and this was ll over onion nodes
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2001 2014-03-03 17:50:23 <petertodd> wumpus: python-bitcoinlib is py3 compat
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2003 2014-03-03 17:50:32 <wumpus> petertodd: cool
2004 2014-03-03 17:50:45 <Michail1> wallet42 - compile bitcoind takes about an hour.  Copying blocks from a windows machine about an hour.  Reindex (because of chainstate not being compatible with windows or centos) took just over 2 weeks.
2005 2014-03-03 17:50:54 maaku has joined
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2007 2014-03-03 17:51:01 <Michail1> The catchup from the 2 week lag took another full day.
2008 2014-03-03 17:51:08 smash has joined
2009 2014-03-03 17:51:36 <Michail1> But, now, you can simply copy chainstate from one pi to another.
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2013 2014-03-03 17:52:04 <wumpus> chainstate is not compatible with windows or centos? that's strange
2014 2014-03-03 17:52:05 basva has joined
2015 2014-03-03 17:52:19 <Michail1> PS.  Running on SDram is slow.  better to use usb thumb drive so it is way faster.  Also, one use with a SSD drive usb which is even faster.
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2017 2014-03-03 17:52:56 <Michail1> wumpus - Yes, I was able to copy /blocks  however, chainstate would fail each time.   can PM if you would like.
2018 2014-03-03 17:53:10 <wumpus> Michail1: I believe you, just wonder why
2019 2014-03-03 17:53:56 <Michail1> I have several units.  Will retest.
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2022 2014-03-03 17:54:38 <sipa> wait? what?
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2024 2014-03-03 17:54:46 <sipa> the same bitcoind version?
2025 2014-03-03 17:54:51 <Michail1> yes
2026 2014-03-03 17:54:54 <sipa> which?
2027 2014-03-03 17:54:55 <Michail1> 8.6
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2030 2014-03-03 17:55:17 <gmaxwell> he's saying the one on arm is not compatible with x86 centos or windows.
2031 2014-03-03 17:55:23 <sipa> oh
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2033 2014-03-03 17:55:27 <Michail1> :)
2034 2014-03-03 17:55:29 <sipa> yeah, that's known
2035 2014-03-03 17:55:32 <sipa> but not understood
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2037 2014-03-03 17:55:46 <sipa> as leveldb has a well-documented on-disk format
2038 2014-03-03 17:55:51 <Michail1> ^
2039 2014-03-03 17:55:51 <sipa> there must be a bug in arm leveldb
2040 2014-03-03 17:55:53 <gmaxwell> maybe a signed vs unsigned char bug someplace?
2041 2014-03-03 17:56:09 <jcorgan> is rpi big-endian?
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2043 2014-03-03 17:56:12 <gmaxwell> no
2044 2014-03-03 17:56:19 <wumpus> no, little endian ARM
2045 2014-03-03 17:56:24 <wumpus> 32 bit
2046 2014-03-03 17:56:34 <wumpus> big endian is not even worth trying :)
2047 2014-03-03 17:56:58 <jcorgan> i never caught the rpi bug, i guess i should have
2048 2014-03-03 17:57:09 <gmaxwell> better off without, there are better arm socs.
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2050 2014-03-03 17:57:25 <wumpus> I don't have a rpi either, but lots of other ARM boxes
2051 2014-03-03 17:58:17 <Persopolis> a bit offtopic but would love to hear your recommendations on arm socs
2052 2014-03-03 17:58:18 <gmaxwell> usually portablity issues to arm in my expirence are either unaligned reads— which tend to have spectacular results, or other issues with char being unsigned.
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2055 2014-03-03 17:59:10 <gmaxwell> Persopolis: I like odroid rpi's arm core is really really really slow, more than the clockrate suggests.
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2058 2014-03-03 18:00:02 <LyndsySimon> jcorgan: it works! :)
2059 2014-03-03 18:00:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: it's pretty impressive that the result is internally consistent files
2060 2014-03-03 18:00:13 <jcorgan> \o/
2061 2014-03-03 18:00:26 <sipa> gmaxwell: i guess it'd be more likely that it wouldn't be able to read its own files either
2062 2014-03-03 18:00:31 <Persopolis> gmaxwell - unaware of odriod - will look - thanks
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2064 2014-03-03 18:00:59 <LyndsySimon> jcorgan: I had to change the return value of decode(), but otherwise the changes are just dealing with Python3's string type. I'm adding some docs now.
2065 2014-03-03 18:01:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, apparently the Bank of Israel put out a press release a couple weeks back about bitcoins
2066 2014-03-03 18:01:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|http://www.boi.org.il/en/NewsAndPublications/PressReleases/Pages/19-02-2014-BitCoin.aspx
2067 2014-03-03 18:01:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(TL;DR: a warning, informing the public about potential risks, etc. Not making any specific recommendation or instruction for or against it.)
2068 2014-03-03 18:02:03 <jcorgan> thanks.  it will of course need to work with either 2 or 3
2069 2014-03-03 18:02:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|In a meeting convened by the Governor of the Bank of Israel, with the participation of representatives from  [...] , it was agreed to continue to examine various perspectives related to the use of, and trade in, virtual currencies. These perspectives include possible macro affects, their legal standing, their regulation, money laundering and terror financing
2070 2014-03-03 18:02:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|risks, taxation, and consumer protection.
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2074 2014-03-03 18:03:13 <petertodd> asdf~.~.
2075 2014-03-03 18:03:21 <LyndsySimon> jcorgan: LOL, of course. Getting it to work in 3 only is easy, most of that time was getting it to work in both. I've tested on 2.7.6 and 3.3.4
2076 2014-03-03 18:03:32 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
2077 2014-03-03 18:03:54 <jcorgan> i don't remember the site but there was a good world-map of central bank positions, colored by "friendliness" to bitcoin
2078 2014-03-03 18:03:57 <LyndsySimon> correction: 2.7.5 and 3.3.4
2079 2014-03-03 18:04:14 <wallet42> Michail1: how long much cpu time does it takes to verify an arriving blog
2080 2014-03-03 18:04:31 basva has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2081 2014-03-03 18:04:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jcorgan: I think it was in the coindesk "state of bitcoin 2013" slideshow
2082 2014-03-03 18:04:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|maybe elsewhere too
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2084 2014-03-03 18:05:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'd say Israel is now firmly in the "investigative" category
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2086 2014-03-03 18:05:21 <Michail1> sipa / gmaxwell - If either of you would like full access to the a synced pi, you are welcome to have full access.
2087 2014-03-03 18:05:25 <Michail1> wallet42 - blog?
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2157 2014-03-03 19:05:09 <joelsbeard> ;;ticker
2158 2014-03-03 19:05:38 <gribble> Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 687.69, Best ask: 688.0, Bid-ask spread: 0.31000, Last trade: 687.69, 24 hour volume: 55212.51589555, 24 hour low: 553.0, 24 hour high: 710.0, 24 hour vwap: 612.981668613
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2178 2014-03-03 19:20:08 <jcorgan> hmm, seems like part of the reason my EC2 node has fewer connections than normal is that it is currently banning one node very few minutes
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2181 2014-03-03 19:21:04 <jcorgan> need to turn on the debugging in more detail to see why
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2199 2014-03-03 19:35:59 <shesek> what's up with bc.i? "Status: Not Connected (0 Nodes Connected)" https://blockchain.info/connected-nodes
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2201 2014-03-03 19:37:37 <jcorgan> weird, i'm two blocks ahead of bc., but they are still scrolling transactions
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2212 2014-03-03 19:45:10 <pointychimp> I'm three ahead. weird
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2217 2014-03-03 19:47:42 <jcorgan> they were 0 nodes connected, then 21, then 0 now 16
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2222 2014-03-03 19:49:01 <pointychimp> number seems to be headed up now.
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2226 2014-03-03 19:51:07 <linagee> when I mine with say, bfgminer, am I solving hashes and providing answers to a pool, or just solving hashes and informing a pool when I've found "the winning hash"?
2227 2014-03-03 19:51:23 * linagee realizes its obviously the first one
2228 2014-03-03 19:51:43 <sipa> you report all almost-valid-blocks
2229 2014-03-03 19:51:44 <linagee> so then - could a large pool use incoming/outgoing hashes/nonces to generate a SHA256 rainbow table?
2230 2014-03-03 19:52:11 <linagee> (yes, I realize the enormous amount of space that would take to store.)
2231 2014-03-03 19:52:19 <sipa> you have no idea what a rainbox table is, i think :)
2232 2014-03-03 19:52:34 <sipa> building a rainbow table requires iterating through all possible inputs
2233 2014-03-03 19:52:46 <sipa> which means all valid block headers
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2236 2014-03-03 19:52:49 <sipa> which is over 2^512
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2238 2014-03-03 19:53:02 <linagee> sipa: that was my understanding of what a rainbow table is, yes.
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2240 2014-03-03 19:53:24 <sipa> i hope you realize you can't possible iterate over 2^512 inputs :)
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2242 2014-03-03 19:53:31 <copumpkin> unicorn table
2243 2014-03-03 19:53:42 <linagee> copumpkin: is that the correct name for a partial rainbow table?
2244 2014-03-03 19:53:49 <copumpkin> no, just made it up
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2246 2014-03-03 19:53:56 <linagee> :) and now it must be used
2247 2014-03-03 19:54:09 <copumpkin> it's a secret, sorry
2248 2014-03-03 19:54:10 <sipa> typical rainbow tables are built from 2^40 or 2^50 inputs
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2250 2014-03-03 19:54:31 <midnightmagic> A rainbow table is not usually just a straight lookup table. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_table
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2262 2014-03-03 20:03:02 <nsh> rainbow table? definitely more likely to be fabulous than straight
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2288 2014-03-03 20:21:21 <jcorgan> hmm, bc.i is still stuck on 288773, but report 709 nodes connected
2289 2014-03-03 20:22:27 <jcorgan> i'm 7 ahead of that on a 0.9.0rc1 node, wonder if they're having a problem with some block on whatever custom software they are using
2290 2014-03-03 20:23:05 <paveljanik> jcorgan: the same here, rc1, 288780
2291 2014-03-03 20:23:09 <petertodd> jcorgan: what's the coinbase?
2292 2014-03-03 20:23:17 <pointychimp> 288780 on version:80600
2293 2014-03-03 20:23:19 <jcorgan> for which
2294 2014-03-03 20:23:21 <petertodd> jcorgan: wonder if it's a eligius block
2295 2014-03-03 20:23:28 <petertodd> jcorgan: for the block just after the one bc.i is on
2296 2014-03-03 20:23:41 <jcorgan> checking
2297 2014-03-03 20:23:56 <esse-> is blockchain.info messed up or has it really been 1hour 9min since last block?
2298 2014-03-03 20:24:06 <sipa> it is messed up
2299 2014-03-03 20:24:11 <esse-> allright
2300 2014-03-03 20:24:17 <pointychimp> tx of coinbase is 9d622b5cd0315ebadffa8093a9a6c6c4a29472dbbbe04c1099f85a32ed0b7f7e
2301 2014-03-03 20:24:27 <petertodd> hmm, webbtc.com isn't stuck, and they pretty much always fail on weirdness...
2302 2014-03-03 20:24:33 <gmaxwell> uh guys, I'm stuck too
2303 2014-03-03 20:24:39 <pointychimp> blockexplorer is working
2304 2014-03-03 20:24:39 <gmaxwell>     "blocks" : 288780,
2305 2014-03-03 20:24:48 <jcorgan> 780 is what i have
2306 2014-03-03 20:24:50 ConvivialMatt has joined
2307 2014-03-03 20:24:52 <jcorgan> 773 is what bc.i is stuck on
2308 2014-03-03 20:24:55 Ksipax has joined
2309 2014-03-03 20:24:56 <gmaxwell> oh whew.
2310 2014-03-03 20:24:58 <petertodd> gmaxwell: 780 means your ok
2311 2014-03-03 20:25:09 <gmaxwell> I should add a tslb to getinfo or something.
2312 2014-03-03 20:25:21 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2313 2014-03-03 20:25:34 <jcorgan> what's a quick way to get the coinbase out of RPC
2314 2014-03-03 20:25:38 <jcorgan> by blockheight
2315 2014-03-03 20:25:46 <sipa> you need txindex
2316 2014-03-03 20:25:50 <jcorgan> i have it
2317 2014-03-03 20:26:06 <sipa> getrawtransaction <txid> 1
2318 2014-03-03 20:26:11 buhbuh has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2319 2014-03-03 20:26:14 <gmaxwell> ~/src/bcm/bax/src/bitcoind getrawtransaction `~/src/bcm/bax/src/bitcoind getblock 000000000000000068fa19e17915810c1b7ea795d0d82efc92733a76cf632be5 | grep '      "' | head -1 | cut -d'"' -f2` 1
2320 2014-03-03 20:27:14 <pointychimp> this what you're looking for? 030668040d00456c6967697573005314d85afabe6d6d3098ca91070fbec8f1163f73390ecad7a144a276901be6da754c061451a5e7660400000000000000002f737333352f00102da90b000000000000ed18
2321 2014-03-03 20:27:32 <jcorgan> eligius
2322 2014-03-03 20:27:45 _ImI_ has joined
2323 2014-03-03 20:27:57 <gmaxwell> the coinbase of 288774 doesn't parse as a script but otherwise doesn't look concerning.
2324 2014-03-03 20:30:53 <jcorgan> < petertodd> jcorgan: wonder if it's a eligius block
2325 2014-03-03 20:31:00 <jcorgan> it is
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2329 2014-03-03 20:31:54 <gmaxwell> I'm not seeing anything espeically weird about it.
2330 2014-03-03 20:32:18 <gmaxwell> it's very big.
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2332 2014-03-03 20:34:42 <jcorgan> yeah, 900k
2333 2014-03-03 20:35:30 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2334 2014-03-03 20:36:09 <pointychimp> 288776 even bigger
2335 2014-03-03 20:37:03 axvf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2337 2014-03-03 20:38:53 <gmaxwell> sounds like the sort of blocks that trigger <0.8 misbehavior.
2338 2014-03-03 20:39:33 <jcorgan> blockexplorer.com is uptodate
2339 2014-03-03 20:39:37 Visionalert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2340 2014-03-03 20:39:51 <jcorgan> no sure if they fixed their code base after the one a month or so ago
2341 2014-03-03 20:40:11 <jcorgan> that was a 0.7 bug
2342 2014-03-03 20:40:12 <gmaxwell> the block after the one where bc.i is at spends 4404 txouts.
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2351 2014-03-03 20:43:42 <paveljanik> was there any limit at 4096 perhaps?
2352 2014-03-03 20:44:33 <sipa> no
2353 2014-03-03 20:44:44 <wizkid057> I didnt do it
2354 2014-03-03 20:44:50 * wizkid057 blames gribble
2355 2014-03-03 20:45:16 <sipa> there used to be a limit close to ~4500 "modified txids in a block", which means the union of the sets of all txids in the block, and all txids it spends coins from
2356 2014-03-03 20:45:26 <sipa> in 0.7
2357 2014-03-03 20:45:52 edcba has joined
2358 2014-03-03 20:46:47 <jcorgan> that in fact might be the case then
2359 2014-03-03 20:46:56 drayah has joined
2360 2014-03-03 20:47:08 <jcorgan> with 4400 txins and probably 100 txes in that block
2361 2014-03-03 20:47:41 imsaguy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2362 2014-03-03 20:49:22 <gmaxwell> 1810 tx created in that block.
2363 2014-03-03 20:50:19 mattco has joined
2364 2014-03-03 20:50:36 <sipa> note that it's not the number of txins that counts
2365 2014-03-03 20:50:36 Joric has quit ()
2366 2014-03-03 20:50:43 <gmaxwell> I know counting.
2367 2014-03-03 20:50:44 <sipa> it's the number of distinct txids those inputs are from
2368 2014-03-03 20:51:03 <gmaxwell> and an additional 3956 distinct txids updated so— 5766 touched.
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2373 2014-03-03 20:51:37 <jcorgan> all the 0.7 nodes connected in my debug log are old so i can't see what their latest is
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2376 2014-03-03 20:53:21 <paveljanik> receive version message: /Satoshi:0.8.1/: version 70001, blocks=288783
2377 2014-03-03 20:53:23 <paveljanik> ok
2378 2014-03-03 20:53:27 <paveljanik> the oldest
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2380 2014-03-03 20:57:39 <jcorgan> heh, i do have a number of 0.7 nodes that have connected over the last several days that are stuck at *277595* which was the weeks ago block that blockexplorer.com choked at due to 0.7 issues, so someone is running these and hasn't noticed they've been stuck for weeks
2381 2014-03-03 20:58:13 <sipa> almost all 0.7 nodes my crawler knows about are stuck at or below 252k
2382 2014-03-03 20:58:36 coeus has joined
2383 2014-03-03 20:58:41 joelsbeard has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2384 2014-03-03 20:58:41 <jcorgan> 252450, yeah, i see that
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2386 2014-03-03 20:59:10 <paveljanik> 0.7 @277595: how it happened?
2387 2014-03-03 20:59:32 <gmaxwell> they're not just stuck there, they get stuck at random spots.
2388 2014-03-03 20:59:43 Guest23137 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2389 2014-03-03 21:00:02 coeus has quit (Client Quit)
2390 2014-03-03 21:00:09 basva has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2391 2014-03-03 21:00:22 <jcorgan> of the 10 in my logs for the last two weeks, 6 are at 277595 and 2 at 25240
2392 2014-03-03 21:00:31 StarenseN has quit (Quit: StarenseN)
2393 2014-03-03 21:00:31 porqui has joined
2394 2014-03-03 21:00:33 <jcorgan> 252450
2395 2014-03-03 21:01:36 afafaf has joined
2396 2014-03-03 21:02:00 <jcorgan> paveljanik: i think 277596 triggered the same bug as last april when 0.8 came out, too many database locks needed to process the block so it would fail
2397 2014-03-03 21:02:19 go1111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2400 2014-03-03 21:02:30 <sipa> i have a bunch of nodes stuck at 252450, at 2716xx, at 27123x
2401 2014-03-03 21:02:41 porquilho has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2402 2014-03-03 21:03:15 albertojimenez has joined
2403 2014-03-03 21:03:24 <jcorgan> darn thos botnet operators who don't keep up with the latest bitcoind!
2404 2014-03-03 21:03:47 parus_ has left ()
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2406 2014-03-03 21:04:03 <paveljanik> I see receive version message: /Satoshi:0.8.6/: version 70001, blocks=262594
2407 2014-03-03 21:04:13 <jcorgan> Satoshi:0.7
2408 2014-03-03 21:04:15 <paveljanik> 85.50.152.142
2409 2014-03-03 21:04:19 <sipa> paveljanik: yes?
2410 2014-03-03 21:04:40 <paveljanik> 2014-03-03 20:56:35
2411 2014-03-03 21:04:45 <sipa> paveljanik: what about it?
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2413 2014-03-03 21:05:06 <paveljanik> 262594 only
2414 2014-03-03 21:05:14 <gmaxwell> So?
2415 2014-03-03 21:05:15 <sipa> well presumably he's still catching up
2416 2014-03-03 21:05:24 <gmaxwell> thats just at connect time.
2417 2014-03-03 21:05:34 <paveljanik> yes
2418 2014-03-03 21:05:35 parus has joined
2419 2014-03-03 21:06:50 <sipa> unless you see several nodes at exactly the same block, there is little reason to assume they're stuck at it
2420 2014-03-03 21:07:15 go1111111 has joined
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2427 2014-03-03 21:14:05 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2428 2014-03-03 21:14:11 <astrolabe> 2 hours since the last block?
2429 2014-03-03 21:14:16 antephialtic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2433 2014-03-03 21:15:20 <paveljanik> astrolabe: blockchain?
2434 2014-03-03 21:15:23 <paveljanik> .i?
2435 2014-03-03 21:15:27 Cylta has joined
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2437 2014-03-03 21:15:40 <astrolabe> Yeah
2438 2014-03-03 21:15:42 <paveljanik> people have bc.i as a homepage 8)
2439 2014-03-03 21:15:42 <Cylta> who played with code recently? =)
2440 2014-03-03 21:16:16 <astrolabe> How long does it have to get before I should suspect a bug?
2441 2014-03-03 21:16:38 <astrolabe> ;;calc exp(12)
2442 2014-03-03 21:16:39 <gribble> 162754.791419
2443 2014-03-03 21:18:11 toffoo has joined
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2445 2014-03-03 21:18:36 <paveljanik> maybe the bc.i problem lies elsewhere - like corrupted db/file system etc. and not in their bitcoind/software
2446 2014-03-03 21:18:40 <artifexd> ;;tslb
2447 2014-03-03 21:18:44 <gribble> Time since last block: 2 hours, 5 minutes, and 6 seconds
2448 2014-03-03 21:19:01 <paveljanik> 8) ok ;-)
2449 2014-03-03 21:19:46 _ImI_ has quit (Quit: _ImI_)
2450 2014-03-03 21:19:57 <artifexd> bc.i has the last block at height 288773. My local client has the height at 288786.
2451 2014-03-03 21:20:18 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2452 2014-03-03 21:20:20 <astrolabe> Oh.  Thanks.
2453 2014-03-03 21:20:36 <paveljanik> artifexd: have a look at the chat log. A few moments before you joined...
2454 2014-03-03 21:20:37 <artifexd> ;;blocks
2455 2014-03-03 21:20:38 <gribble> 288773
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2457 2014-03-03 21:21:02 <Cylta> so, it's only problem with bc.i?
2458 2014-03-03 21:21:04 <num1> sipa, previously your site had a couple graphs on the network itself, such as number of peers and version distribution. have they been moved to a different url or did you get rid of them?
2459 2014-03-03 21:21:15 <paveljanik> http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2014/03/03
2460 2014-03-03 21:21:18 <paveljanik> sorry for url ;-)
2461 2014-03-03 21:21:18 <sipa> num1: i never had such graphs
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2466 2014-03-03 21:23:05 <artifexd> paveljanik My comments were directed at providing astrolabe more information. Specifically that the blockchain continues to grow. Gribble and bc.i are just having issues.
2467 2014-03-03 21:23:32 <artifexd> I'll go back to lurking now. :)
2468 2014-03-03 21:24:07 <num1> I certainly remember a graph of the number of peers that nicely showed a decrease after the reward halving, maybe you just used to link to it sipa?
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2520 2014-03-03 22:00:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: fair point on the timestamps.
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2573 2014-03-03 22:35:30 <jcorgan> well, bc.i is unstuck, anyone know what happened?
2574 2014-03-03 22:35:47 <copumpkin> piuk fell asleep, stopped turning the crank
2575 2014-03-03 22:35:53 <jcorgan> lold
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2578 2014-03-03 22:37:01 <sipa> num1: i never linked to other sites
2579 2014-03-03 22:37:39 <sipa> jcorgan: cleaning lady unplugged the ethernet cable, i suppose
2580 2014-03-03 22:37:51 <num1> okay, I must be mistaken then.
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2629 2014-03-03 23:13:24 <GMP> ;;blocks
2630 2014-03-03 23:13:25 <gribble> 288791
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2674 2014-03-03 23:54:37 <olalonde> hola
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