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9 2014-03-04 00:07:57 <jaychristopher> Whats the easiest way to delete a 0 conf transaction from bitcoind wallet?
10 2014-03-04 00:08:41 <gmaxwell> jaychristopher: wait until the next release and zapwallet.
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12 2014-03-04 00:08:46 <sipa> with 0.9, start with -zapwallettxes
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14 2014-03-04 00:09:03 <jaychristopher> thats a command?
15 2014-03-04 00:09:10 <sipa> a command line flag
16 2014-03-04 00:09:28 <gmaxwell> makes it purge out all the transactions and relearn them from the blockchain.
17 2014-03-04 00:09:37 <jaychristopher> oh interesting
18 2014-03-04 00:09:48 <jaychristopher> can i run that on -qt?
19 2014-03-04 00:09:53 <jaychristopher> from command line
20 2014-03-04 00:10:03 <sipa> why not just something that removes unconfirmed transactions, btw?
21 2014-03-04 00:10:07 <sipa> no need for a rescan...
22 2014-03-04 00:10:13 <sipa> and most likely what you want
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24 2014-03-04 00:10:35 <jaychristopher> agreed, id rather not rescan
25 2014-03-04 00:10:39 <sipa> (jaychristopher: not a question to you - just asking aloud why we don't have that)
26 2014-03-04 00:11:40 <gmaxwell> Sounds fantastic to me. Arguably it could be automatic.
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29 2014-03-04 00:12:30 <jaychristopher> second time I've had this problem, but been 2 years since last time
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44 2014-03-04 00:23:34 <jaychristopher> Btw, Thanks zipa
45 2014-03-04 00:23:50 <jaychristopher> sipa
46 2014-03-04 00:23:51 <jaychristopher> lol
47 2014-03-04 00:23:51 <jaychristopher> sorry
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55 2014-03-04 00:26:54 <olalonde> mornin'
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63 2014-03-04 00:32:11 <jaychristopher> Ah gmaxwell - i saw you answered too and now i see that it's not part of this version huh
64 2014-03-04 00:32:16 <jaychristopher> thats why it's not working
65 2014-03-04 00:33:07 <sipa> in 0.8.6, you can use -salvagewallet
66 2014-03-04 00:33:13 <sipa> but that's a very rough tool
67 2014-03-04 00:33:24 <sipa> it removes everything except your private keys, and rebuilds from there
68 2014-03-04 00:33:38 <sipa> so it loses address book, transactions, timestamps, ...
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70 2014-03-04 00:34:49 <gmaxwell> I still have a wallet that -salvagewallet throughly corrupts.
71 2014-03-04 00:35:56 <sipa> :o
72 2014-03-04 00:37:08 <gmaxwell> my main testnet wallet.. run it through salvage wallet and it goes from like 200k BTC balance to 50 BTC, and unlock doesn't work anymore.
73 2014-03-04 00:37:18 hmsimha has joined
74 2014-03-04 00:37:23 <gmaxwell> No one else seems to have reported this, however.
75 2014-03-04 00:38:28 <edcba> haha
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77 2014-03-04 00:39:11 <edcba> i have a completly borked wallet
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89 2014-03-04 00:52:04 <GMP> gmaxwell: -salvagewallet have dangerous feature: new wallet have priv keys missing in original wallet. if you salvage 50 btc and send 1btc, then delete salvaged wallet, 49 btc (change) is lost forever!!!
90 2014-03-04 00:52:24 <gmaxwell> yes, it gets a new keypool.
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94 2014-03-04 00:53:02 <jaychristopher> so i should send the entire balance to a safe address right away just in case? :)
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98 2014-03-04 00:54:31 <GMP> or, maybe, add some warning somewhere
99 2014-03-04 00:55:14 <gmaxwell> maybe we should hide salvage ... it's really intended to be a last resort rescue option.
100 2014-03-04 00:56:03 <jaychristopher> I just backed up the wallet file and am running salvage - then will transfer full balance immediately to see what happens.
101 2014-03-04 00:56:32 <gmaxwell> make sure you don't transfer it to a key you just got from that wallet. :P
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105 2014-03-04 01:02:08 <mhanne> hi olalonde! nice to see you here, i wanted to ask you about the blproof thing..
106 2014-03-04 01:02:24 <mhanne> is the server supposed to generate a new tree whenever the balance table changes, or in intervals like once a day?
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109 2014-03-04 01:02:50 <gmaxwell> mhanne: you shouldn't update it constantly or you exacerbate the substition problem.
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111 2014-03-04 01:03:06 <gmaxwell> My expectation was that it would get used once a day.
112 2014-03-04 01:03:10 <olalonde> mhanne: hi :) happy to help
113 2014-03-04 01:03:20 <gmaxwell> but other people may have better thoughts.
114 2014-03-04 01:03:34 <olalonde> mhanne: this is not really specified... I'm not really sure what would be best. I guess once a day would be good for now. Eventually it would be nice to have shorter intervals but we would need a way for clients to verify their root.json automatically
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116 2014-03-04 01:04:05 <gmaxwell> mhanne: basically you need to make sure that the service is not giving one tree to one user, and a different tree to another user.
117 2014-03-04 01:04:13 <olalonde> right now.. root.json must be verified manually so the interval should not be too short to let users take the time to make sure the root.json is correct
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119 2014-03-04 01:04:23 <mhanne> substitution problem? you mean that different people can verify they are shown the same root?
120 2014-03-04 01:04:49 <mhanne> that would be hard if it's too often i guess
121 2014-03-04 01:04:50 <olalonde> this could be probably automated by having a trusted third party server that fetches root.json for you and sends it back to you
122 2014-03-04 01:05:00 <olalonde> mhanne: yes
123 2014-03-04 01:05:06 <gmaxwell> mhanne: e.g. say the bank like thing has two customers with 100 coins each. But it's fractional and only owns 100 coins. It gives each user a different root, which shows that all 100 belong to that user.
124 2014-03-04 01:05:49 <gmaxwell> can also be addressed by commitming to the root in the blockchain. or a bunch of other ways. but the criticality of addressing it just depends on how often the updates happen.
125 2014-03-04 01:06:00 <mhanne> yea, that's one thing, they need to be compared by different people
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128 2014-03-04 01:06:25 <mhanne> putting it in the blockchain could help yea
129 2014-03-04 01:06:52 <mhanne> but the other way, if you don't update often, the tree doesn't match the user's balance and you can't verify it automatically
130 2014-03-04 01:07:16 <mhanne> (without either trusting the exchange to truthfully report the changes since the root was generated, or have the user think about it)
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133 2014-03-04 01:08:55 <olalonde> gmaxwell: if it is committed to the blockchain, then wouldn't users need to verify they are given the same transaction?
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136 2014-03-04 01:09:47 <olalonde> one easy to do it would be to use your browser in incognito mode, preferably behind a VPN/proxy and fetch the root.json file
137 2014-03-04 01:10:00 <olalonde> for now...
138 2014-03-04 01:10:02 <gmaxwell> olalonde: to be uber fun with it you commit to it in the coins that you use in the assets side of the proof. To be more realistic, you just have some very well known coin asscoiated with the service.
139 2014-03-04 01:10:12 <olalonde> eventually that process will probably be automated by the extension
140 2014-03-04 01:10:30 <olalonde> gmaxwell: right
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142 2014-03-04 01:11:22 <olalonde> mhanne: are you planning to implement the scheme on your website?
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145 2014-03-04 01:13:39 <mhanne> yes, in fact i already have some code working.. that's the other thing i wanted to ask you.. i first started by just extending the code that generates bitcoin merkle trees, and make it carry along the value. i was surprised to find you build the tree in a completely different way. is there a particular reason?
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149 2014-03-04 01:15:26 <olalonde> mhanne: what do you mean? there are 2 formats that the tool outputs for partial trees... one format is for debugging purposes (using --human flag) and the other one is a JSON format
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151 2014-03-04 01:15:59 <olalonde> mhanne: the complete tree is in a different format because it's just meant for use internally, it is not supposed to be shared with anyone... I was lazy so I just output the internal representation (an array)
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153 2014-03-04 01:17:08 <olalonde> mhanne: internally, all trees are represented as an array to simplify things a bit. but the ouput of the partial tree is in a different format because an array would be too big
154 2014-03-04 01:17:57 <olalonde> mhanne: when the tool loads a partial tree, it transforms the json representation into an array
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156 2014-03-04 01:18:16 <olalonde> mhanne: not sure if I understood your question
157 2014-03-04 01:18:53 <mhanne> sorry, i'm probably misunderstanding something..
158 2014-03-04 01:19:08 <mhanne> https://gist.github.com/mhanne/9338371 this is the code i was using at first
159 2014-03-04 01:19:40 <mhanne> i didn't really understand how you do it, but your way of building the tree seems a lot more fancy
160 2014-03-04 01:19:45 <olalonde> mhanne: you're writing an alternative implementation?
161 2014-03-04 01:20:22 <mhanne> yes.. i've also ported some of your code in the meantime.. but it still didn't help me see what's going on :P
162 2014-03-04 01:20:26 <olalonde> ok, let me have a look. my Ruby is a bit rusty
163 2014-03-04 01:21:23 <mhanne> it basically just loops over all hashes two at a time, hashing them together and adding them to the end of the array
164 2014-03-04 01:22:40 <olalonde> sounds right
165 2014-03-04 01:22:46 <olalonde> actually smarter then what I did eheh
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167 2014-03-04 01:22:55 <olalonde> I put the leafs at the end of the array
168 2014-03-04 01:23:32 <olalonde> I didn't know what a merkle tree was before doing this -_-
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172 2014-03-04 01:24:19 <olalonde> the complete tree representation is not specified because it is just used internally to extract partial trees
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174 2014-03-04 01:24:47 <olalonde> once you got your complete tree, you need a function to extract a partial tree for a given leaf
175 2014-03-04 01:24:58 <olalonde> you can just duplicate your array and remove all irrelevant nodes
176 2014-03-04 01:25:07 <mhanne> well, tbqh. i didn't come up with this myself either ;)
177 2014-03-04 01:25:24 <mhanne> but i was under the impression that that's the way merkle trees are grown in bitcoin-land
178 2014-03-04 01:25:42 <olalonde> yes, I believe it is
179 2014-03-04 01:26:08 <olalonde> my implementation is not very idiomatic
180 2014-03-04 01:26:08 <olalonde> after you removed the nodes, then you got an array with a bunch of null values and relevant nodes
181 2014-03-04 01:26:47 <olalonde> you need to convert that array representation to a node graph that you can serialize to JSON
182 2014-03-04 01:27:13 <olalonde> each node has the following properties: left, right, value, hash. you start at the root node and build the tree
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186 2014-03-04 01:28:15 <olalonde> maybe would have been easier to stick to the array representation...
187 2014-03-04 01:28:36 <olalonde> but its not optimal because you could end up with a huge array with bunch of null values everywhere
188 2014-03-04 01:29:37 <mhanne> ah ok
189 2014-03-04 01:29:53 <mhanne> so you want to keep the current json format
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192 2014-03-04 01:30:28 <mhanne> fair enough, i was just confused, thought maybe it offered some advantage i didn't see
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196 2014-03-04 01:32:10 <mhanne> i'll try to get my version compatible, but probably won't have time before the weekend..
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200 2014-03-04 01:36:07 <olalonde> mhanne: here is how the serialized version of a partial tree should look like https://gist.github.com/olalonde/9338482#file-gistfile1-json
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202 2014-03-04 01:36:29 <olalonde> yes, I think it's better to keep this format for publishing the files.. internally you can use arrays
203 2014-03-04 01:37:11 <mhanne> alright, thank you :)
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205 2014-03-04 01:37:56 <olalonde> the problem with arrays is that it's not very optimized if you have a bunch of empty nodes in the middle of the array... the object representation doesn't care about empty nodes
206 2014-03-04 01:38:12 <olalonde> mhanne: no problem, keep me updated on progress :) I'll link to your implementation
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210 2014-03-04 01:39:39 <olalonde> mhanne: this might help you https://github.com/olalonde/blind-liability-proof/blob/master/lib/tree.js#L226 (array to object representation function)
211 2014-03-04 01:41:30 <olalonde> https://github.com/olalonde/blind-liability-proof/blob/master/lib/tree.js#L65 functions to get left/right indexes for a given index .. yours should be a bit different since your leafs are at the beginning of the array
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213 2014-03-04 01:41:48 <olalonde> back to work, good luck :)
214 2014-03-04 01:42:20 <mhanne> ah, great
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216 2014-03-04 01:42:49 <mhanne> i actually have half of your tree class ported by now... now i'm not sure if i shouldn't just finish it that way
217 2014-03-04 01:43:52 <mhanne> but yea it seems to be easy enough to convert too
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224 2014-03-04 01:47:16 <warren> wumpus: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3383#issuecomment-36453324 wangbus wants to finish this PR, but someone needs to explain what exactly would be acceptable for the separate balances in RPC and UI.
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228 2014-03-04 01:47:47 <warren> wumpus: I'm guessing the watch-only shouldn't mix into real balances for existing RPC commands, and we want new RPC for watch-only?
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230 2014-03-04 01:48:00 <warren> wumpus: and for qt UI we want unconfirmed and confirmed?
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232 2014-03-04 01:48:30 <gmaxwell> I think for everything we want confirmed/unconfirmed/watched
233 2014-03-04 01:48:49 <warren> oh, you don't want watched to have confirmed/unconfirmed of its own?
234 2014-03-04 01:48:55 <gmaxwell> oh
235 2014-03-04 01:48:56 <gmaxwell> maybe.
236 2014-03-04 01:49:02 <gmaxwell> No opinion.
237 2014-03-04 01:49:07 <gmaxwell> I misunderstood your cmment there.
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240 2014-03-04 01:50:44 <warren> Luke-Jr: sipa: anyone else have an opinion on what is desired for watch-only RPC and qt UI?
241 2014-03-04 01:51:34 <gmaxwell> conf unconf wconf wunconf sounds fine to me. ... maybe someone would complain about figure bloat. The GUI could hide the latter two if you're not watching anything.
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244 2014-03-04 01:51:59 <warren> gmaxwell: which RPC commands in particular should have variants?
245 2014-03-04 01:52:01 <Luke-Jr> warren: that PR is totally broken and should not be merged in any form.
246 2014-03-04 01:52:06 drayah has joined
247 2014-03-04 01:52:21 <warren> Luke-Jr: I'm going based on what wumpus said earlier, please comment in the PR
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249 2014-03-04 01:53:10 <Luke-Jr> warren: I already did
250 2014-03-04 01:53:14 <warren> Luke-Jr: if it no longer causes confusion with mixing, do you have any concerns beyond encouraging resuse?
251 2014-03-04 01:53:15 <warren> reuse?
252 2014-03-04 01:53:37 <Luke-Jr> you mean if it only shows receives?
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254 2014-03-04 01:53:52 <warren> Luke-Jr: no
255 2014-03-04 01:54:02 <Luke-Jr> then what doy uo mean "mixing"?
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257 2014-03-04 01:54:21 <warren> Luke-Jr: confusion of "real" and "watched" coins in the same balance, I think people agree they don't want that.
258 2014-03-04 01:54:36 <Luke-Jr> warren: that's the smallest of the problems with it
259 2014-03-04 01:54:50 jakov has quit (Quit: Leaving)
260 2014-03-04 01:54:51 <warren> Luke-Jr: I am not too concerned about the reuse issue because we already have that, and we need HD
261 2014-03-04 01:54:58 <Luke-Jr> the big problems are 1) showing "sent" transactions that are entirely unrelated to the added addresses
262 2014-03-04 01:55:03 <Luke-Jr> and 2) encouraging address reuse
263 2014-03-04 01:55:21 <Luke-Jr> warren: we don't have ANYTHING encouraigng reuse right now
264 2014-03-04 01:55:59 <Gerendon> Hiring a programmer proficient in Ruby for a blockchain parser. PM for more information.
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268 2014-03-04 01:57:01 <Luke-Jr> the *only* "use case" proposed for this, is one that we already support easier
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271 2014-03-04 01:57:59 <warren> Gerendon: try #bitcoin-ruby
272 2014-03-04 01:58:17 <Gerendon> warren: thank you
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274 2014-03-04 01:59:11 <warren> Luke-Jr: how is #1 a problem?
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276 2014-03-04 01:59:35 <Luke-Jr> warren: uh, how is it *not*?
277 2014-03-04 01:59:41 <Luke-Jr> everything about #1 is a bug
278 2014-03-04 02:00:08 <warren> Luke-Jr: if it doesn't effect any balances and it is informational only its still a problem?
279 2014-03-04 02:00:25 basva has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
280 2014-03-04 02:00:31 <Luke-Jr> rephrased: when it is used, it adds transactiosn that have *nothing* to do with the wallet or address, to your wallet
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282 2014-03-04 02:00:57 <warren> concrete example?
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285 2014-03-04 02:02:25 <Luke-Jr> warren: import an address used by Joe. When he receives, that shows up in your wallet. Now when he spends bitcoins at some random time in the future entirely unrelated to the address (which is only used to receive of course), his transaction now shows up in your wallet as "send" even though you are not watching any of the addresses nor have anything to do with it
286 2014-03-04 02:03:09 papes11 has joined
287 2014-03-04 02:03:15 <papes11> helix coin is now having bounties up guys!
288 2014-03-04 02:03:33 yubrew has joined
289 2014-03-04 02:03:39 soheil has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
290 2014-03-04 02:03:41 Cylta has left ()
291 2014-03-04 02:05:08 <papes11> Helixcoin is now doing bounties. Please join #thehelixcoin
292 2014-03-04 02:05:10 papes11 has left ()
293 2014-03-04 02:05:11 _ImI_ has joined
294 2014-03-04 02:05:19 <SomeoneWeird> :|
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307 2014-03-04 02:40:00 <warren> Luke-Jr: how is it entirely unrelated if an input from that address is involved?
308 2014-03-04 02:40:24 <warren> Luke-Jr: as long as the unrelated part doesn't effect a balance within the wallet I don't see how this is an issue.
309 2014-03-04 02:40:58 antephialtic has joined
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316 2014-03-04 02:47:05 <warren> Luke-Jr: perhaps it can be considered as "known" but disregarded in a similar manner as a conflicted tx?
317 2014-03-04 02:47:22 <warren> except for the watch-only balance effected by the spent input
318 2014-03-04 02:47:42 bumlike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
319 2014-03-04 02:47:50 ntio3 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
320 2014-03-04 02:48:12 <warren> Luke-Jr: err ... the wallet is already effect in weird ways if you import one address that contributed to a larger tx with unrelated inputs, how is this any different?
321 2014-03-04 02:49:15 pminer has quit (Quit: pminer)
322 2014-03-04 02:51:15 StSeek has joined
323 2014-03-04 02:52:02 <flound1129> how can this be:
324 2014-03-04 02:52:20 <flound1129> $ bitcoind getbalance -> 0.00248484
325 2014-03-04 02:52:21 <flound1129> $ bitcoind getbalance "" -> 1.65183409
326 2014-03-04 02:53:57 just[dead] is now known as justanotheruser
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336 2014-03-04 03:07:25 <gmaxwell> flound1129: because "" is not "*"
337 2014-03-04 03:08:03 <gmaxwell> also in current releases immature coins are counted inconsistently.
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362 2014-03-04 03:34:32 antephialtic has joined
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365 2014-03-04 03:38:52 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
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367 2014-03-04 03:41:38 <gmaxwell> [OT] https://www.gitorious.org/gnutls/gnutls/commit/6aa26f78150ccbdf0aec1878a41c17c41d358a3b GNU TLS, basically the same bug as OSX in certificate validation.
368 2014-03-04 03:42:00 jogos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
369 2014-03-04 03:42:37 <copumpkin> news at 11: fucked-up control flow is easy to get wrong
370 2014-03-04 03:42:49 <copumpkin> (news at 10:42)
371 2014-03-04 03:42:49 <flound1129> can I do a sendmany from *?
372 2014-03-04 03:42:52 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
373 2014-03-04 03:43:23 <The_Fly> if my bitcoind saw a tx, but it never showed up in a block and there's no public (blockchain.info etc.) record of it... has it either just fallen out of mempools and failed to propagate or could there be a doublespend at work
374 2014-03-04 03:43:43 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: more of a statement about the total lack of testing in basically all SSL libraries, alas.... and the fundimental difficulty of testing it.
375 2014-03-04 03:43:51 <maaku> The_Fly: either one? check for yourself
376 2014-03-04 03:43:54 <The_Fly> i have a very low threshold on zeroconf txs anyway so it's not really an issue, i also block withdrawals until all user txs confirm at least once as a measure
377 2014-03-04 03:44:02 <The_Fly> maaku: how can i check
378 2014-03-04 03:44:07 <maaku> see if the inputs are spent
379 2014-03-04 03:44:16 <The_Fly> i can't getrawtransaction on it
380 2014-03-04 03:44:54 <gmaxwell> then it's completely spent. (I don't think there is any other case where that doesn't work) to double check do a gettxout
381 2014-03-04 03:45:19 Gyps has quit (Quit: Gyps)
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384 2014-03-04 03:46:07 <The_Fly> gettxout returns nothing
385 2014-03-04 03:46:15 <maaku> gettxout on what parameters?
386 2014-03-04 03:46:40 <The_Fly> the exact ammount was sent a second time, so i think the user just sent again, which confuses me because his first tx was credited
387 2014-03-04 03:46:42 RedEmerald has left ()
388 2014-03-04 03:47:00 <The_Fly> i do check the inputs for confs, they must have at least one
389 2014-03-04 03:47:03 twobitcoins_ has joined
390 2014-03-04 03:47:32 <The_Fly> maaku: oh do i need includemempool?
391 2014-03-04 03:48:42 twobitcoins has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
392 2014-03-04 03:48:48 <maaku> The_Fly: for each input, check for it with gettxout (you'll get nothing if it's spent)
393 2014-03-04 03:49:11 Emcy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
394 2014-03-04 03:49:25 <The_Fly> checking the inputs of the tx which is stuck at 0 confs?
395 2014-03-04 03:49:32 <maaku> *spent or chained 0 conf
396 2014-03-04 03:49:39 <The_Fly> i am stuck at even querying that tx
397 2014-03-04 03:49:40 Emcy has joined
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399 2014-03-04 03:49:40 Emcy has joined
400 2014-03-04 03:49:40 <maaku> es
401 2014-03-04 03:49:41 <maaku> yes
402 2014-03-04 03:50:06 Gabralkhan_ has joined
403 2014-03-04 03:50:25 <maaku> I'm confused. You have a transaction in your bitcoind that is not yet in the blockchain, yes?
404 2014-03-04 03:50:31 <The_Fly> correct
405 2014-03-04 03:50:56 <maaku> But somehow you don't have that transaction? ("<The_Fly> i am stuck at even querying that tx")
406 2014-03-04 03:50:58 owowo has quit (Quit: owowo)
407 2014-03-04 03:51:15 <The_Fly> ./bitcoind getrawtransaction 2f60b5cbf2e4873382949e720c7941eeec3f1017583623b145f222187d8e57e5
408 2014-03-04 03:51:18 <The_Fly> error: {"code":-5,"message":"No information available about transaction"}
409 2014-03-04 03:51:43 yubrew has joined
410 2014-03-04 03:51:54 Gabralkhan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
411 2014-03-04 03:52:04 <maaku> so how did you get that txid in the first place?
412 2014-03-04 03:52:13 <The_Fly> *shrugs*
413 2014-03-04 03:52:17 Gabralkhan_ has left ()
414 2014-03-04 03:52:35 <The_Fly> user looks legit, i have their oauth on g+ and know what project they're connected with
415 2014-03-04 03:52:57 <The_Fly> they sent the funds (exact same value) again, 10 mins later roughly
416 2014-03-04 03:53:17 <The_Fly> it's not hugely important, i might just have to completely remove zero-conf deposits
417 2014-03-04 03:53:19 hmsimha_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
418 2014-03-04 03:54:04 <The_Fly> i *do* set tight limits on them, as i said, including disallowing subsequent withdrawal until all user deposit txs confirm at least once
419 2014-03-04 03:54:09 <maaku> yes, you should remove zero-conf deposits anyway
420 2014-03-04 03:54:23 <The_Fly> i know, i wanted it for fluidity
421 2014-03-04 03:54:51 <maaku> i won't pounce on you for that this time
422 2014-03-04 03:54:54 _ImI_ has joined
423 2014-03-04 03:54:54 <maaku> what i'm saying is, it doesn't sound like 2f60b5cbf2e4873382949e720c7941eeec3f1017583623b145f222187d8e57e5 ever was a transaction
424 2014-03-04 03:55:08 <The_Fly> it appears in listtransactions
425 2014-03-04 03:55:52 <The_Fly> thanks for not pouncing maaku, i do know it is a security hole, hence the tight guards around it
426 2014-03-04 03:56:10 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
427 2014-03-04 03:56:14 <The_Fly> i was just doing a bit of db auditing, and if this came up again it would mean a user could not withdraw
428 2014-03-04 03:56:39 <The_Fly> since i would deny it on account that they had a stuck tx (in the current implementation)
429 2014-03-04 03:56:45 <The_Fly> hm, that might also have to go...
430 2014-03-04 03:56:47 <maaku> ok well getrawtransaction won't pull from the wallet
431 2014-03-04 03:56:58 <maaku> but if it's in the wallet it should be in the mempool
432 2014-03-04 03:57:20 basva has joined
433 2014-03-04 03:57:45 <The_Fly> box has been rebooted since
434 2014-03-04 03:57:47 <The_Fly> perhaps
435 2014-03-04 03:57:56 <The_Fly> so, it's gone?
436 2014-03-04 03:59:28 <The_Fly> actually im probably going to leave things the way they are, in the case of a double spend i would block any withdrawal (say the user makes a prize, wants to cash out)
437 2014-03-04 03:59:33 <The_Fly> so i dont think im at risk
438 2014-03-04 03:59:38 <maaku> well it would be re-added to the mempool if there wasn't another conflicting transaction
439 2014-03-04 03:59:44 <The_Fly> ./bitcoind gettxout 2f60b5cbf2e4873382949e720c7941eeec3f1017583623b145f222187d8e57e5 1 true ?
440 2014-03-04 03:59:45 <maaku> so you can assume that was the case
441 2014-03-04 04:00:02 <maaku> i assume the one you received 10 min later was a mutated version of the same
442 2014-03-04 04:00:42 Emcy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
443 2014-03-04 04:01:11 Emcy has joined
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446 2014-03-04 04:01:38 <The_Fly> what do you mean? it's from the same address, same value, different time (so different txid)
447 2014-03-04 04:01:58 basva has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
448 2014-03-04 04:02:55 <The_Fly> listtransactions -> http://pastebin.com/9pH5N6Jn
449 2014-03-04 04:03:25 <maaku> The_Fly: there is no time in transactions
450 2014-03-04 04:03:40 <maaku> it has a different txid because some aspect of the transaction is different
451 2014-03-04 04:04:08 <The_Fly> ah sorry
452 2014-03-04 04:04:29 <maaku> this is the classic example of a mutated transaction
453 2014-03-04 04:04:34 <maaku> (and why you don't accept them)
454 2014-03-04 04:04:42 <maaku> the txid associated with a transaction is not final until it hits the chain
455 2014-03-04 04:04:43 <The_Fly> its the only one ive had
456 2014-03-04 04:04:46 <maaku> this confuses the wallet
457 2014-03-04 04:05:23 <The_Fly> i accept zeroconf on the grounds that they cannot withdraw
458 2014-03-04 04:05:32 <The_Fly> if it fails to hit the chain
459 2014-03-04 04:05:48 <The_Fly> but there are non-malicious reasons this could happen, so that is again bad practice?
460 2014-03-04 04:06:38 <The_Fly> mutated == malicious?
461 2014-03-04 04:07:15 shaileshg has joined
462 2014-03-04 04:07:15 <The_Fly> (yes i have been following the gox story :P)
463 2014-03-04 04:07:41 radiator has joined
464 2014-03-04 04:10:27 <The_Fly> it's odd that he moved the funds to 1CfqARw9zMmwWK9svSzcFSGJC3ktjpQ8ir first
465 2014-03-04 04:11:07 <The_Fly> wait, no, that was the deposit address i issued.
466 2014-03-04 04:11:41 <maaku> no, mutated does not mean malicious
467 2014-03-04 04:11:51 <maaku> it could have been anybody between him and the miner
468 2014-03-04 04:11:54 <maaku> and even accidental
469 2014-03-04 04:12:41 <The_Fly> you mean the tx was broken during relay?
470 2014-03-04 04:12:50 <maaku> not broken
471 2014-03-04 04:13:12 <maaku> the hash from which you get the txid covers bits which anyone can change in certain ways without invalidating the transaction
472 2014-03-04 04:13:38 <The_Fly> right
473 2014-03-04 04:13:55 <The_Fly> i think i see what happened, he's sent two to the same address
474 2014-03-04 04:14:02 <The_Fly> i automatically issue a new address every tx
475 2014-03-04 04:14:19 <maaku> no, no, if he did that you would have seen two confirmed transactions
476 2014-03-04 04:14:24 <maaku> what happened was he sent one tx
477 2014-03-04 04:14:48 <maaku> and, somewhere along the way, some bits of it were changed and when it hit the blockchain it had a different hash
478 2014-03-04 04:14:54 macboz_ has joined
479 2014-03-04 04:15:06 <maaku> but it's the same transaction
480 2014-03-04 04:15:17 macboz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
481 2014-03-04 04:15:19 kurtosis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
482 2014-03-04 04:15:37 <maaku> and all it did was confuse applications which accept zero-conf transactions (like yours) into crediting his account twice
483 2014-03-04 04:16:18 <The_Fly> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=kuWPX1ep
484 2014-03-04 04:16:32 <The_Fly> any way to explain the timestamp i have in my db though
485 2014-03-04 04:16:36 wei__ has joined
486 2014-03-04 04:16:54 <The_Fly> i do realise zero conf is terrible, granted, but isn't my no-withdrawl safeguard enough?
487 2014-03-04 04:17:13 <The_Fly> as in, in his state he would not be able to get any funds out until there is a manual audit
488 2014-03-04 04:18:08 ThomasV has joined
489 2014-03-04 04:18:11 <The_Fly> so im covered
490 2014-03-04 04:18:18 <The_Fly> (if it was malicious)
491 2014-03-04 04:18:36 <The_Fly> in his case since it was accidental, yes it's an annoyance for the user
492 2014-03-04 04:18:42 <The_Fly> but hopefully very rare...
493 2014-03-04 04:18:59 <maaku> i don't know what kind of business you run
494 2014-03-04 04:19:23 <maaku> but if it is an exchange, for example, he could use the double-counted balance for a leveraged position
495 2014-03-04 04:19:39 <The_Fly> yes for sure, i would turn instant deposit OFF in that case
496 2014-03-04 04:19:48 <maaku> generally you shouldn't let the user do *anything* with funds that have no confirmation
497 2014-03-04 04:19:59 <The_Fly> absolutely, i agree
498 2014-03-04 04:20:10 <The_Fly> i just wanted flexibility in this system
499 2014-03-04 04:20:23 <The_Fly> it's currently built for a very low-risk project
500 2014-03-04 04:20:36 <maaku> the timestamp is just the localtime when your node saw the transaction
501 2014-03-04 04:20:43 antephialtic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
502 2014-03-04 04:20:48 <maaku> in the first case when you saw it on the network, in the second when you saw it in the blockchain
503 2014-03-04 04:21:04 <The_Fly> ok, i see
504 2014-03-04 04:21:17 <The_Fly> same tx, came in twice, once mutated
505 2014-03-04 04:21:55 <The_Fly> hmmm if only i could write a test vector for this
506 2014-03-04 04:22:17 <The_Fly> the long term goal is to make wallet software that provides some kind of assurance (if i license it)
507 2014-03-04 04:22:20 <radiator> Hi, is anyone working on a decentralized exchange ?
508 2014-03-04 04:22:30 <The_Fly> maaku: but for now it is just in-house
509 2014-03-04 04:22:33 Application has joined
510 2014-03-04 04:22:34 <maaku> The_Fly: speaking of test vecotrs, make sure you handle a reorg properly
511 2014-03-04 04:23:07 <maaku> in a related attack, the first transaction can get a single confirm, then is reorg'd away, and the second transaction accepted
512 2014-03-04 04:23:27 <The_Fly> maaku: yes, if miners collude this can be pulled off right?
513 2014-03-04 04:23:30 <maaku> you need to recognize they are double spends of each other
514 2014-03-04 04:23:47 <maaku> it coudl even be accidental although this is less likely
515 2014-03-04 04:24:16 <The_Fly> waiting for more confs reduces risk of reorg
516 2014-03-04 04:24:48 <The_Fly> actually i do it in a bracketed fashion, so i accpet 0.1 btc or less 0conf, 1btc or less 1conf, 2btc or less 2 conf etc. etc.
517 2014-03-04 04:24:53 <The_Fly> user configurable
518 2014-03-04 04:25:03 <The_Fly> so they can adjust to their desired risk profile
519 2014-03-04 04:25:29 <The_Fly> i am tempted to just say 3 confs for everything now, and then the only thing which would hurt me is hardfork
520 2014-03-04 04:25:35 richcollins has joined
521 2014-03-04 04:25:38 <The_Fly> which i dont know how to detect
522 2014-03-04 04:25:52 theymos has left ("Leaving")
523 2014-03-04 04:25:54 <The_Fly> but i shut down my box when i get a bitcoind alert... heh
524 2014-03-04 04:26:11 kobayashi_ has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
525 2014-03-04 04:26:34 <The_Fly> (i mean client configurable, customers who use this wallet software)
526 2014-03-04 04:27:37 <The_Fly> lol http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=kuWPX1ep "Another blockchain reorg of six or more blocks before July 1, 2013"
527 2014-03-04 04:27:49 <The_Fly> * http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=1408
528 2014-03-04 04:28:01 <maaku> The_Fly: be sure to also shut down if the block rate significantly slows down
529 2014-03-04 04:28:15 <The_Fly> oh yeah?
530 2014-03-04 04:28:27 <The_Fly> that would happen if mining was to grind to a halt?
531 2014-03-04 04:28:28 Namworld has quit ()
532 2014-03-04 04:28:34 <maaku> that's a locally detectable indication that you are on a fork, or a 51% attack started
533 2014-03-04 04:28:45 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
534 2014-03-04 04:28:59 <The_Fly> thanks maaku, all good information
535 2014-03-04 04:29:05 <maaku> could be caused by lots of things - network partition, accidental bug, explicit attack
536 2014-03-04 04:29:25 <The_Fly> what is a good threshold, i guess i can statistically look at the blockchain
537 2014-03-04 04:29:37 <The_Fly> and distribution of blocktime deltas
538 2014-03-04 04:29:52 CSKiro has joined
539 2014-03-04 04:30:06 <maaku> you should be able to figure it out mathmatically - since block finding is a Poisson process
540 2014-03-04 04:30:17 kurtosis has joined
541 2014-03-04 04:30:36 <maaku> I'm feeding my daughter right now so it's hard to break out a pencil & paper
542 2014-03-04 04:30:38 <The_Fly> ok nice math challenge for me :)
543 2014-03-04 04:30:44 <The_Fly> maaku: that's ok
544 2014-03-04 04:30:45 StSeek_ has joined
545 2014-03-04 04:30:56 <The_Fly> feeding her is much more important lol
546 2014-03-04 04:30:56 StSeek_ has quit (Client Quit)
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548 2014-03-04 04:31:21 <maaku> basically just decide what false positive rate you want (how often you can accept your service shutting down & sending you an email/sms under normal circumstances)
549 2014-03-04 04:31:45 <maaku> and how quickly you want to react (how many blocks of history to consider)
550 2014-03-04 04:31:45 <The_Fly> it's a poisson process, is that the case under rapidly increasing/decreasing network hashrate
551 2014-03-04 04:31:53 <The_Fly> and when diff changes
552 2014-03-04 04:32:07 <maaku> yes it is, it is just the rate that changes
553 2014-03-04 04:32:12 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
554 2014-03-04 04:32:29 <maaku> but you shouldn't have to model that, just assume 10 min
555 2014-03-04 04:32:42 omefire has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
556 2014-03-04 04:32:55 wereHamster has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
557 2014-03-04 04:33:09 <maaku> gmaxwell would probably have more input on filter problems like this
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561 2014-03-04 04:34:35 <The_Fly> ok, im interested to discuss this futher at some point, for now the basic implementation i have is quite robust (apart from this double deposit case ive found, which risk can be mitigated by value-bracketed min confirmation limits)
562 2014-03-04 04:35:04 <The_Fly> and withdrawal hold on stuck 0conf tx
563 2014-03-04 04:35:09 <The_Fly> hold/block
564 2014-03-04 04:35:35 <The_Fly> then the only relevant issues beyond this are 51% attack detection/prevention, as you mentioned
565 2014-03-04 04:36:27 <The_Fly> and reorgs (covered in the client-configurable settings, e.g. they can set a hard minconfs of 3 for all deposits)
566 2014-03-04 04:36:57 <The_Fly> for my stupid website https://the-million-bitcoin-homepage.com/
567 2014-03-04 04:37:02 <The_Fly> selling valueless pixels
568 2014-03-04 04:37:21 <The_Fly> i think i can tolerate zeroconf-related failures :P
569 2014-03-04 04:39:03 <The_Fly> although in the case of prize funds it would act as a gradual drain unless the limit is set quite low, so i might move to requiring 1 conf when i inject prize money (anyway thats offtopic)
570 2014-03-04 04:39:14 <The_Fly> thanks again maaku , i really appreciate your help & time
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588 2014-03-04 04:56:29 <The_Fly> well at least i audit my database and transaction processing system, unlike karpeles :P
589 2014-03-04 04:57:24 <radiator> The_Fly: please, dont mention that name in here
590 2014-03-04 04:58:11 <The_Fly> okay
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596 2014-03-04 05:06:36 <Luke-Jr> warren: there is no from address
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623 2014-03-04 05:35:24 <rasmuzen> hi
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626 2014-03-04 05:37:05 <rasmuzen> I'm trying to create a giant table of all utxos that are associated with scriptpubkeys (and the scriptpubkey they're associated with, of course)
627 2014-03-04 05:37:54 <rasmuzen> is there some way I can process the transactions that are downloaded by bitcoind to create such a table?
628 2014-03-04 05:38:20 <rasmuzen> jcorgan: CodeShark: hey :P
629 2014-03-04 05:39:40 <justanotheruser> rasmuzen: I think there is a blockchain parser on bitcointalk
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633 2014-03-04 05:41:15 <rasmuzen> thanks
634 2014-03-04 05:41:53 <rasmuzen> justanotheruser: do you know if it would be possible to do such a thing using just the rpc api?
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656 2014-03-04 06:02:39 <dansmith_btc> rasmuzen, can you iterate over each tx with gettransaction check if it is unspent with gettxout and finally get its script with decoderawtx?
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660 2014-03-04 06:07:15 <anton000> just clarifying in getrawtransaction <txid> 1
661 2014-03-04 06:07:44 <anton000> the returned "value" entry for each vout is in bitcoins already and not satoshi?
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665 2014-03-04 06:10:13 <anton000> nvm... lol checked on blockchain
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801 2014-03-04 08:55:47 <paveljanik> --help for discover should state --discover=<n>
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804 2014-03-04 08:56:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|paveljanik: feel free to correct it
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810 2014-03-04 09:00:16 <paveljanik> will try...
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822 2014-03-04 09:14:31 <Lightsword> does anyone know of any reference code for how to manage generation transaction pool payouts similar to how eligius works?
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824 2014-03-04 09:15:48 <paveljanik> michagog|cloud: done
825 2014-03-04 09:15:52 <paveljanik> o, sorry
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849 2014-03-04 09:38:20 <paveljanik> and now ACKed. Thanks. 10minutes from my github registration. Good.
850 2014-03-04 09:38:21 <paveljanik> ;-)
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852 2014-03-04 09:39:10 <wumpus> paveljanik: yes, documentation improvements are really easy to ACK, we need more of them :)
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873 2014-03-04 09:59:34 <wumpus> anyone with advice here? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3748 submitter has a conflicted transaction and wants to reissue it, but is unsure how
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875 2014-03-04 10:00:36 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: just make another one
876 2014-03-04 10:00:44 <Diablo-D3> the conflicted one can never be valid
877 2014-03-04 10:01:20 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: the way Ive always interpreted those, its effectively an accidental double spend attempt
878 2014-03-04 10:01:20 <wumpus> are you really sure? I'm afraid to cause gox-like issues
879 2014-03-04 10:01:36 <Diablo-D3> heh, afaict, gox never had gox-like issues
880 2014-03-04 10:01:42 <Diablo-D3> gox had magicaltux stealing $400m issues
881 2014-03-04 10:02:02 <wumpus> usually when reissuing the advice is to spend at least one input, but how to actually do that using bitcoind I don't know
882 2014-03-04 10:03:24 <Persopolis> if it's conflicted, could it not mean the other version of this tracsaction went through and therefore another should NOT be created to replace it? but i don't know
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884 2014-03-04 10:03:44 <wumpus> Persopolis: right, that's also an option, that's why I'm not rushing to answer
885 2014-03-04 10:04:11 <wumpus> tho ,"walletconflicts":[]
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887 2014-03-04 10:04:30 <wumpus> I'd interpret that as 'there is no direct duplicate'
888 2014-03-04 10:04:38 <Diablo-D3> Persopolis: thats the way Ive always interpreted it
889 2014-03-04 10:04:42 <Diablo-D3> its not the first time its come up
890 2014-03-04 10:05:21 <wumpus> well there are multiple ways in which a transaction can become conflicted, one is that a malleated duplicate made it into a block, in which case you *don't* want to reissue
891 2014-03-04 10:05:42 <wumpus> another is that the person spent unconfirmed change and the intermediate transaction was malleated, causing the transaction to be 'orphaned'
892 2014-03-04 10:06:00 <Persopolis> so is there a way for him to check outputs he was spending with this transaction and see if anything on blockchain spent that output?
893 2014-03-04 10:06:25 <wumpus> another one is a double-spend attempt (from a wallet backup, for example)
894 2014-03-04 10:06:34 <wumpus> so... yeah :-)
895 2014-03-04 10:07:28 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: yeah it sounds like its either a wallet backup and he tried to issue a tx before the chain completed updating, or he has the wallet running concurrently thus breaking shit
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919 2014-03-04 10:29:27 <koshii> Is this a good place to ask kind of newbie bitcoin dev questions (as in, not core dev, but building things with Bitcoin) ?
920 2014-03-04 10:30:21 <Diablo-D3> koshii: that'd be better for #bitcoin I think
921 2014-03-04 10:30:25 <koshii> OK
922 2014-03-04 10:30:28 <Diablo-D3> but everyone is asleep anyhow
923 2014-03-04 10:30:33 <koshii> Thanks.
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926 2014-03-04 10:34:36 Abishek__ is now known as abishek
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931 2014-03-04 10:41:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|12:01:24 <wumpus> usually when reissuing the advice is to spend at least one input, but how to actually do that using bitcoind I don't know
932 2014-03-04 10:41:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: `bitcoind help createrawtransaction`
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934 2014-03-04 10:45:55 Garnenya has joined
935 2014-03-04 10:46:35 <Garnenya> hello here
936 2014-03-04 10:46:44 <Garnenya> I have question about bitcoin
937 2014-03-04 10:47:28 <Garnenya> which libdb developers are using and why it's not the newest libdb-5?
938 2014-03-04 10:49:14 <sipa> Garnenya: libdb has bad compatibility properties
939 2014-03-04 10:50:05 <sipa> Garnenya: if you have a bitcoind linked against bdb 5.1, you're not able to open your wallet file using 4.8 anymore
940 2014-03-04 10:50:35 <sipa> that is why release binaries use the earliest still-commonly-available bdb version
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945 2014-03-04 10:52:24 <Garnenya> sipa: does it means that if i will move wallet.dat on PC where is only libdb 4.8 i won't be able to open it?:x
946 2014-03-04 10:53:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Garnenya: yes, if BDB 5.1 has touched that wallet
947 2014-03-04 10:53:14 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
948 2014-03-04 10:53:15 <Garnenya> I see...
949 2014-03-04 10:53:22 <Garnenya> thanks for answer:)
950 2014-03-04 10:54:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Garnenya: it's theoretically possible to downgrade, using db5.1_dump and db4.8_load, IIRC
951 2014-03-04 10:54:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But I haven't done it myself, so I can't guarantee that works
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955 2014-03-04 10:56:14 <sipa> downgrading manually is possible yes
956 2014-03-04 10:58:17 <Garnenya> uh-huh... useful :) hmmm.. what about wallet on Windows? i haven't digged about this matter myself yet... but what lib is using windows for making wallet.dat? is it possible to move that file on linux wallet with no harm?
957 2014-03-04 10:58:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Garnenya: windows and linux both use bdb
958 2014-03-04 11:00:30 <Garnenya> 4.8? or 5.1?
959 2014-03-04 11:00:52 <Diablo-D3> 4.8 iirc
960 2014-03-04 11:01:04 <Garnenya> kthx
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979 2014-03-04 11:18:19 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: that's not really useful in this case is it, if I have to explain to every newbie how to use raw transactions ...
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999 2014-03-04 11:43:44 <CodeShark> I realized from our earlier conversation on a generalized multisig policy that nested m-of-n is fundamentally related to the theory of symmetric functions
1000 2014-03-04 11:44:07 airbreather_1 is now known as airbreather
1001 2014-03-04 11:44:51 <CodeShark> Sm,n = x1 x2 x3 ⦠xm + x1 x2 x3 ⦠x_{m-1} x_{m+1} + ...
1002 2014-03-04 11:45:26 <CodeShark> the symmetric polynomial where each term is at most linear in each variable
1003 2014-03-04 11:46:26 <CodeShark> over the field {0,1}
1004 2014-03-04 11:47:08 <CodeShark> finding the simplest representation using solely m-of-n as a primitive amounts to finding the shortest expression only using the symmetric polynomials
1005 2014-03-04 11:47:26 <CodeShark> the two problems are isomorphic
1006 2014-03-04 11:48:25 Eggman33 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1007 2014-03-04 11:50:42 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1008 2014-03-04 11:51:26 <CodeShark> I believe the expression in terms of the symmetric polynomials is actually nique
1009 2014-03-04 11:51:28 <CodeShark> *unique
1010 2014-03-04 11:51:44 <sipa> where is n?
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1014 2014-03-04 11:54:04 <CodeShark> the symmetric polynomial Sm,n(x1, x2, x3, â¦, xm) is the sum of all products of exactly m variables
1015 2014-03-04 11:54:48 <CodeShark> it has the interesting feature over the field {0,1} that it is 0 if fewer than m of the x's are 1
1016 2014-03-04 11:55:10 <CodeShark> it is 1 when exactly m of the x's are 1
1017 2014-03-04 11:55:43 <CodeShark> err, sorry
1018 2014-03-04 11:55:54 <CodeShark> I meant Sm,n(x1, x2, x3, â¦, xn)
1019 2014-03-04 11:56:03 <CodeShark> we form m-tuple products
1020 2014-03-04 11:56:10 <CodeShark> and sum over all such terms
1021 2014-03-04 11:56:46 <CodeShark> every polynomial function has a unique representation in terms of the symmetric polynomials
1022 2014-03-04 11:56:58 <CodeShark> it's an important theorem in galois theory :)
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1024 2014-03-04 11:57:33 <CodeShark> over the field {0,1}, it's even simpler since higher powers than 1 are idempotent
1025 2014-03-04 11:57:43 <CodeShark> so we only need to consider the exponents 0 and 1
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1031 2014-03-04 11:59:37 <CodeShark> since any truth table over a finite set of boolean variables can be represented as a polynomial over {0,1}, there must be a unique representation in terms of the symmetric polynomials
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1034 2014-03-04 12:00:54 <CodeShark> so I think the only issue that remains is the ordering of the variables
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1036 2014-03-04 12:01:31 * t7 googles symmetric polynomials
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1039 2014-03-04 12:03:19 <CodeShark> actually, the theorem states that every symmetric polynomial has a unique representation in terms of the elementary symmetric polynomials
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1046 2014-03-04 12:05:20 <CodeShark> in general, the function we'd be dealing with would not be symmetric - so the problem then becomes splitting it into nested symmetric functions
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1052 2014-03-04 12:07:46 <CodeShark> hmm, in our particular application, satisfaction really just means that at least one of the terms is 1, so + corresponds to inclusive or rather than exclusive or
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1055 2014-03-04 12:09:24 <CodeShark> I'm sure this problem's been studied to death :p
1056 2014-03-04 12:10:35 <CodeShark> inclusive or is equivalent to 1-of-n
1057 2014-03-04 12:11:28 <CodeShark> so we can first factor the polynomial if we can, then treat each factor as a 1-of-n over a set of products
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1065 2014-03-04 12:16:58 <CodeShark> a single term is n-of-n
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1067 2014-03-04 12:17:35 <Xeno-Genesis> Does anyone know of some web service API providing Âsendrawtransaction facilities through an HTTP request, similar to http://blockchain.info/pushtx, but that actually works for P2SH?
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1069 2014-03-04 12:18:22 <CodeShark> so for instance, x1 x2 + x1 x3 factors into x1 (x2 + x3) which leads us to 2of(x1, 1of(x2, x3))
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1073 2014-03-04 12:20:08 <CodeShark> now what happens when you can't factor? say x1 x2 + x1 x3 + x3 x4
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1077 2014-03-04 12:23:27 <airbreather> x1 x2 + x1 x3 + x3 x4, you'd have to pick, right? either x1(x2 + x3) + (x3 x4) or (x1 x2) + x3(x1 + x4)... couldn't you just always factor out the lowest term?
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1079 2014-03-04 12:23:58 <CodeShark> let's count the number of m-of-n operations we must perform in each case
1080 2014-03-04 12:24:39 <airbreather> at least, when the number of m-of-n operations is tied for the lowest
1081 2014-03-04 12:24:50 <TD> sipa: it seems that we need to fix the mining code to compare < nMinRelayFee otherwise the fee drop is useless. concur?
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1083 2014-03-04 12:25:40 <CodeShark> the two forms you gave are equivalent up to a permutation in the x's, airbreather :)
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1087 2014-03-04 12:26:39 <airbreather> so, the policy would accept or reject them both the same?
1088 2014-03-04 12:26:50 <CodeShark> so we can have a canonical sorting of the variables and a well-defined rule in the order of operations
1089 2014-03-04 12:27:29 <CodeShark> for instance, we can put terms containing fewer factors on the left
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1092 2014-03-04 12:28:46 <CodeShark> in expanded form, we have 1of(2of(x1, x2), 2of(x1, x3), 2of(x3, x4))
1093 2014-03-04 12:30:31 <CodeShark> not sure what exactly we're optimizing for
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1095 2014-03-04 12:31:29 <CodeShark> the three forms we just gave require exactly four m-of-n operations, but the expanded form doesn't nest more than two levels deep
1096 2014-03-04 12:31:34 <airbreather> hmm... I see, rote factorization like what I did doesn't reduce below 4 yeah
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1098 2014-03-04 12:32:10 <CodeShark> so perhaps we really can't do any better than that
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1101 2014-03-04 12:33:10 <CodeShark> on the other hand, what you did reduces the number of variables in any given layer to at most two
1102 2014-03-04 12:33:37 <CodeShark> whereas the expanded form requires three at a single level
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1104 2014-03-04 12:34:17 <sipa> TD: i think the fee drop is useless in any case
1105 2014-03-04 12:34:28 <CodeShark> which is more efficient for our purposes seems to depend entirely on the computational model we apply
1106 2014-03-04 12:34:36 <CodeShark> the virtual machine
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1108 2014-03-04 12:34:43 <sipa> TD: it will just result in more transactions not confirming
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1112 2014-03-04 12:35:23 <CodeShark> a stack machine would probably do better with fewer operands and more nesting
1113 2014-03-04 12:35:37 <CodeShark> whereas a register machine might be the exact opposite
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1115 2014-03-04 12:36:35 <Persopolis> are you talking about using logic simplification like karnaugh maps? not following where you are heading :)
1116 2014-03-04 12:37:21 <CodeShark> in a way, yes
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1118 2014-03-04 12:37:48 <Persopolis> i mean what is your goal?
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1120 2014-03-04 12:38:23 <CodeShark> to construct the most efficient bitcoin script in terms of required computational resources to evaluate a nested m-of-n expression
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1122 2014-03-04 12:38:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Xeno-Genesis: there are a few places I know where you can push a raw tx
1123 2014-03-04 12:39:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|In addition to bc.i, they exist at (among others) webbtc, coinbin, and eligius
1124 2014-03-04 12:39:14 <CodeShark> or to construct the shortest possible script
1125 2014-03-04 12:39:18 <CodeShark> might be a better goal
1126 2014-03-04 12:39:39 <CodeShark> the smallest possible script in terms of number of bytes in the script
1127 2014-03-04 12:39:46 <Persopolis> Xeno-Genesis - is running your own bitcoind instance not an option with RPC?
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1130 2014-03-04 12:40:48 <Xeno-Genesis> Thank you michagogo|cloud
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1132 2014-03-04 12:41:33 <Xeno-Genesis> Persopolis, I have some clients that are demoing my technology, and I rather have them install only our command-line software, without dependencies.
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1134 2014-03-04 12:42:17 <Xeno-Genesis> Persopolis, I can assume theyÂll have curl on their systems, but not an up-to-date bitcoind, electrum, or similar.
1135 2014-03-04 12:42:29 <CodeShark> run the bitcoind on your own servers, then :)
1136 2014-03-04 12:43:10 <Persopolis> Xeno-Genesis - just watch out for running foul of web based api calls not being construed as DoS - many of the providers will see repeated rapid api calls as a DoS
1137 2014-03-04 12:43:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Xeno-Genesis: also, you could theoretically find a bunch of peers, connect to them, send the tx, and disconnect
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1139 2014-03-04 12:43:41 <CodeShark> actually, you only need to connect to one :)
1140 2014-03-04 12:44:14 <Xeno-Genesis> michagogo|cloud, That will be availalbe soon with the SPV library. I wish to use something patchy for now until SPV support is done.
1141 2014-03-04 12:44:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|CodeShark: true, but that one may not relay
1142 2014-03-04 12:44:40 <Xeno-Genesis> Persopolis, The demo is run manually, I will never send more than a couple of transactions per minute.
1143 2014-03-04 12:44:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|michagogo|cloud: SPV library?
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1145 2014-03-04 12:44:57 <Xeno-Genesis> michagogo|cloud, Yes, that speaks Bitcoin P2P protocol.
1146 2014-03-04 12:45:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Xeno-Genesis:*
1147 2014-03-04 12:45:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Xeno-Genesis: you don't need a full implementation
1148 2014-03-04 12:45:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just a socket and a few messages
1149 2014-03-04 12:45:32 <CodeShark> just a handshake and a tx message, really
1150 2014-03-04 12:45:34 <Xeno-Genesis> michagogo|cloud, No, just connect to a peer, deliver the TX, disconnect. I get it.
1151 2014-03-04 12:45:34 <Persopolis> ver / verack
1152 2014-03-04 12:45:50 <CodeShark> send version, receive verack, send tx, disconnect
1153 2014-03-04 12:46:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Xeno-Genesis: right - you can easily put the ~4-5 messages you need in your code
1154 2014-03-04 12:46:21 <CodeShark> then connect to another node and grab the mempool and see if your transaction is there :)
1155 2014-03-04 12:46:37 <Xeno-Genesis> WebBTC is cool.
1156 2014-03-04 12:46:43 <Xeno-Genesis> IÂll try it.
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1158 2014-03-04 12:49:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|CodeShark: or connect to a handful, send to one or two
1159 2014-03-04 12:49:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|See if the others inv it
1160 2014-03-04 12:49:18 <CodeShark> yeah, that's the right way to do it
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1162 2014-03-04 12:49:44 <CodeShark> but managing more than one connection at a time requires either multithreading or async i/o :_)
1163 2014-03-04 12:50:21 <CodeShark> and if he's looking for a service that essentially does what sendrawtransaction does, I'm guessing he's not looking to do that
1164 2014-03-04 12:50:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah
1165 2014-03-04 12:50:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|True.
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1173 2014-03-04 12:57:43 <Persopolis> btw how does the code distinguish nodes from one another - i assume it's not purely network address
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1185 2014-03-04 13:02:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Persopolis: what exactly do you mean?
1186 2014-03-04 13:03:41 <Persopolis> so if I have multiple bitcoid clients running on private network and connecting to other nodes through NAT... what do the multiple nodes look like to the external nodes - does it see them as one node? or is there some way it distinguishes them from a single node trying to connect to it multiple times
1187 2014-03-04 13:04:07 <jgarzik> Persopolis, the internal nodes become invisible
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1190 2014-03-04 13:04:31 <jgarzik> Persopolis, Network only knows nodes and what they relay.
1191 2014-03-04 13:04:48 <jgarzik> oh, sorry, I thought you were building a DMZ
1192 2014-03-04 13:05:11 <jgarzik> Persopolis, if it's just multiple nodes behind a NAT, with -no- DMZ, it looks like multiple nodes on the same IP address
1193 2014-03-04 13:05:50 <Persopolis> indeed - does this create a problem?
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1205 2014-03-04 13:11:31 <jgarzik> Persopolis, for the network? no. for you? maybe.
1206 2014-03-04 13:13:15 <Persopolis> ah ConnectNode refuses connection from same address by the looks of it - so your internal nodes will probably end up connecting to differing external nodes
1207 2014-03-04 13:13:56 <Persopolis> maybe not - I think i misread that...
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1211 2014-03-04 13:15:26 <Persopolis> bummer - that's not so good
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1221 2014-03-04 13:22:39 <Persopolis> ideally the nodes should be added based on some sort of unique id generated by the node - that way they can be distinguished from one another
1222 2014-03-04 13:22:56 <sipa> why?
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1224 2014-03-04 13:24:20 <Persopolis> if a service provider doesn't want to expose those servers through a DMZ, they end up with a single point of failiure
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1228 2014-03-04 13:26:36 <jgarzik> Persopolis, it is a single point failure for the network at large, to have a bunch of nodes on the same network
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1231 2014-03-04 13:27:19 <sipa> the reason for avoiding the same subnet is to make sybil attacks harder
1232 2014-03-04 13:27:31 <sipa> as it means the attacker has to control many networks
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1235 2014-03-04 13:28:19 <Persopolis> jgarzik - come on - not really a problem for the network... but it is a problem for a service provider if they can only run a single instance of bitcoind
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1237 2014-03-04 13:29:27 <jgarzik> Persopolis, yes, it is a problem for the network if measures are not taken, think about it
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1239 2014-03-04 13:29:56 <Persopolis> jgarzik out of the entire network, how many node do you think would be run out of the same subnet
1240 2014-03-04 13:30:29 <Persopolis> not a large percentage... so this is not a network resilience issue - this is a system resilience issue for the provider
1241 2014-03-04 13:30:32 <jgarzik> Persopolis, mostly irrelevant to the security discussion of many nodes clustered on a single network
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1243 2014-03-04 13:30:43 <jgarzik> Persopolis, locally, you can run as many as you want
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1246 2014-03-04 13:31:43 <Persopolis> jgarzik the point is to try and avoid service providers having a single point failure
1247 2014-03-04 13:32:13 <Persopolis> but i think there is a way to satisfy both
1248 2014-03-04 13:33:14 <Persopolis> you can currently specifiy connect=<ip>, adding a flag to say if <ip> not aviable then switch to any
1249 2014-03-04 13:34:03 <Persopolis> that way a provider can have primary server with no connect switch, a secondary server with connect=primary server + switch to connect to any if primary not avail
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1252 2014-03-04 13:35:08 <Persopolis> how does that sound?
1253 2014-03-04 13:37:39 <jgarzik> Persopolis, like I said, locally, you may run however many you want. The point I was trying to make is that the network will try to avoid clusters of nodes, for very important reasons.
1254 2014-03-04 13:38:03 <jgarzik> Persopolis, a big provider running multiple nodes is just fine
1255 2014-03-04 13:39:02 <Persopolis> jgarzik - but currently they are limited to having one interface with outside network - i'm just proposing a simple way to work around that
1256 2014-03-04 13:39:17 <sipa> heh?
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1260 2014-03-04 13:40:00 <jgarzik> sipa, NAT -> single IP address, I presume he means
1261 2014-03-04 13:40:38 <sipa> so?
1262 2014-03-04 13:42:25 <Persopolis> thats where my question started sipa - i asked if that was a problem - jgarzik saod it might be a problem if the external nodes see my internal nodes as a single node
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1264 2014-03-04 13:42:43 <Persopolis> which looking through the code looks like they would
1265 2014-03-04 13:43:55 <sipa> why do you want incoming connections?
1266 2014-03-04 13:44:22 <Persopolis> i didn't say that
1267 2014-03-04 13:44:28 <sipa> then it doesn't matter
1268 2014-03-04 13:44:34 <sipa> you can make outgoing connections all you want
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1270 2014-03-04 13:45:35 <Persopolis> let me just elaborate afresh.. Service provider has 2 nodes behind NAT - Nodes A and B - they connect to an external node X - X sees A and B as just one node because they have the same IP
1271 2014-03-04 13:46:27 <sipa> no it does not
1272 2014-03-04 13:46:36 <Persopolis> lol
1273 2014-03-04 13:46:36 <sipa> they're two independent connections
1274 2014-03-04 13:46:48 <epscy> they would have to be on different ports to get incoming connections right?
1275 2014-03-04 13:47:16 <epscy> actually they should be on different ports anyway if the NAT does upnp
1276 2014-03-04 13:47:19 <epscy> i think
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1278 2014-03-04 13:47:24 <sipa> yes, but it's about outgoing connections, so that doesn't matter
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1280 2014-03-04 13:47:56 <Persopolis> when I look at the code, I can only see network address of being used to distinguish nodes
1281 2014-03-04 13:48:11 <sipa> where precisely?
1282 2014-03-04 13:48:57 <Persopolis> can't recall precisely now - but was looking at things like ConnectNode and FindNode
1283 2014-03-04 13:49:23 <sipa> ah, hmm
1284 2014-03-04 13:49:40 <sipa> but you'd probably be using -addnode if you want to connect to a specific external node anyway
1285 2014-03-04 13:49:48 <sipa> wait
1286 2014-03-04 13:49:50 <sipa> nevermind
1287 2014-03-04 13:49:54 <Persopolis> =D
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1290 2014-03-04 13:51:36 <sipa> Persopolis: for outgoing connections, you're right
1291 2014-03-04 13:51:52 <sipa> Persopolis: but i doubt that X will care about the address of the connections of A and B
1292 2014-03-04 13:51:58 <sipa> if it does, that's probably a bug
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1294 2014-03-04 13:52:47 <Persopolis> I suspect it will reuse FindNode function :S
1295 2014-03-04 13:53:15 <Persopolis> e.g. to store node stats
1296 2014-03-04 13:53:18 <Persopolis> version etc
1297 2014-03-04 13:53:36 <sipa> why?
1298 2014-03-04 13:53:51 <sipa> can you please look at the code or test this first?
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1301 2014-03-04 13:56:13 <Persopolis> sipa - yes of course - but please remeber I'm asking in here to get guidance - i've only been messing with the code for a few days - it takes me 10 times longer to even locate the right area to look at
1302 2014-03-04 13:57:52 <Persopolis> and I've looked once and repeated my understanding here to confirm if it was right...
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1314 2014-03-04 14:11:25 <TD> sipa: why blocks are not full
1315 2014-03-04 14:11:38 agricocb has joined
1316 2014-03-04 14:11:49 <TD> sipa: besides, relatively speaking if all transactions drop their fee together, it should make no difference to how many transactions confirm
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1318 2014-03-04 14:12:23 <TD> BlueMatt: is gavin around?
1319 2014-03-04 14:13:17 <sipa> TD: if all of them do, sure
1320 2014-03-04 14:13:36 <sipa> unless miners don't want to mine them anymore :)
1321 2014-03-04 14:13:53 <sipa> (which probably won't happen for a while)
1322 2014-03-04 14:14:22 <TD> at any rate, the mining code still needs adjustment
1323 2014-03-04 14:14:37 <jgarzik> TD, relatively speaking, if all transactions drop their fee together, it certainly could make a great deal of difference how many transactions confirm, if miners dislike that fee adjustment
1324 2014-03-04 14:14:48 Gyps has quit (Quit: Gyps)
1325 2014-03-04 14:14:56 <jgarzik> it always makes a difference when you change the economics on a wide scale
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1327 2014-03-04 14:16:52 <TD> miners could all simultaneously decide they want more fees and go on strike tomorrow, regardless of any fee drop
1328 2014-03-04 14:16:58 <TD> that's the nature of the system
1329 2014-03-04 14:17:32 <TD> i worry more about users "going on strike"
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1333 2014-03-04 14:22:02 <jgarzik> TD, I don't, right now
1334 2014-03-04 14:22:20 <jgarzik> TD, my public nodes have seen ever-increasing client traffic, both volume and node count
1335 2014-03-04 14:22:31 <jgarzik> TD, anecdotal evidence points to same
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1338 2014-03-04 14:23:19 <TD> doesn't mean much - perhaps growth would be 2x as fast if transactions were cheaper. (i doubt that, but the point holds)
1339 2014-03-04 14:23:44 <TD> anyway, miners are free to adjust upwards if they don't like the pro-growth hints in the source code
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1348 2014-03-04 14:39:40 <TD> oh FFS
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1350 2014-03-04 14:40:14 <TD> so it's not enough that mt gox collapses in a messy heap. now another exchange got hacked because they never heard of database transactions, and a bitbank also got their hot wallet drained and closed up shop
1351 2014-03-04 14:40:31 <TD> i wonder if we need some kind of big flashing warning on the front of bitcoin.org saying DO NOT GIVE YOUR COINS TO THIRD PARTIES
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1358 2014-03-04 14:42:37 <wumpus> more like DO NOT STORE YOUR COINS WITH THIRD PARTiES; only keep your coins on an exchange while trading, they're not banks and don't have any such guarantees...
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1360 2014-03-04 14:43:46 BTC_Bear is now known as hbrntng!~BTC_Bear@unaffiliated/btc-bear/x-5233302|BTC_Bear
1361 2014-03-04 14:43:52 <sipa> http://canibuildasitehandlingotherpeoplesmoney.com/
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1370 2014-03-04 14:48:29 <Emcy> TD which bitbank
1371 2014-03-04 14:48:33 <Emcy> and which other exchange
1372 2014-03-04 14:48:43 <jgarzik> Emcy, this vvv
1373 2014-03-04 14:48:45 <jgarzik> <jgarzik> Another hack: http://flexcoin.com/
1374 2014-03-04 14:48:46 <jgarzik> <jgarzik> hot wallet emptied
1375 2014-03-04 14:48:46 <jgarzik> <jgarzik> And another, that I had never heard of: https://twitter.com/Poloniex/status/440734781689446400
1376 2014-03-04 14:49:15 <Emcy> sipa aw shit son is that marquee
1377 2014-03-04 14:49:23 <Emcy> i didnt even know that was still in html
1378 2014-03-04 14:49:23 <jgarzik> TD, I'll say it again... bitcoin is /too easy/ to use :)
1379 2014-03-04 14:49:46 <jgarzik> TD, You can set up a site that stores millions, without knowing much about computer programming, much less financial security
1380 2014-03-04 14:50:04 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1381 2014-03-04 14:50:07 <TD> yeah
1382 2014-03-04 14:50:10 <Emcy> "All other users will be directed to Flexcoin's "Terms of service" located at "Flexcoin.com/118.html" a document which was agreed on, upon signing up with Flexcoin."
1383 2014-03-04 14:50:11 <jgarzik> TD, that is the least cost avenue in the short term :(
1384 2014-03-04 14:50:13 <Emcy> hahaha thats cold
1385 2014-03-04 14:50:25 <TD> i wish there was a way to fix that
1386 2014-03-04 14:50:41 <TD> unfortunately i'm not sure what it is, beyond just "staying the course" of trying to develop low-trust infrastructure
1387 2014-03-04 14:51:01 <Emcy> do we have a running tally of how expensive the "stop giving your moeny to other peoplet o look after" lesson has been so far
1388 2014-03-04 14:51:09 <jgarzik> make crappier APIs. require each API call to solve a human-displayed math equation of a level required to work at Google, Inc.
1389 2014-03-04 14:51:12 <jgarzik> ;p
1390 2014-03-04 14:51:23 <Emcy> got to be coming up on hald a billion dollars
1391 2014-03-04 14:51:42 <gmaxwell> someone will just post a patch to disable that. :P The patch will introduce a remote root exploit by accident too.
1392 2014-03-04 14:52:15 <stonecoldpat> theres a long history of exchanges blowing up :/ (someone even did a paper on it) - needs to be more public knowledge about the risks
1393 2014-03-04 14:52:41 _biO_ has joined
1394 2014-03-04 14:52:45 <gmaxwell> there is a nice list on bct, but it's actually incomplete.
1395 2014-03-04 14:52:55 <TD> lol
1396 2014-03-04 14:53:04 <gmaxwell> (of failures that resulted in funds losts)
1397 2014-03-04 14:53:06 <Emcy> i wonder if its fundamentally a convenience issue as the wisdom says, or if theres some other psychological thing going on
1398 2014-03-04 14:53:28 <Emcy> that people just really want some sort of authority entity to take control or somthing
1399 2014-03-04 14:53:33 <TD> "yes"
1400 2014-03-04 14:53:47 <Emcy> and that keeps being any bozo setting up a slick website with total trash for a backend
1401 2014-03-04 14:53:48 <TD> + speculators, for exchanges
1402 2014-03-04 14:53:48 <comboy> I think that user friendly decentralized web of trust could help with these problems
1403 2014-03-04 14:54:00 <gmaxwell> It's much easier to build vulnerable things, much easier to monetize building vulnerable things... perhaps even fundimentally easier to use them, but the jury is still out on that one.
1404 2014-03-04 14:54:02 <stonecoldpat> emcy: i think people are just accustomed to people offering a service and trusting them instantly
1405 2014-03-04 14:54:09 <TD> ironically that blogger who published the leaked mt gox presentation admitted he uses coinbase as his web wallet
1406 2014-03-04 14:54:12 maaku has joined
1407 2014-03-04 14:54:18 <TD> he doesn't actually host his own coins
1408 2014-03-04 14:54:20 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83794.0 "List of Bitcoin Heists"
1409 2014-03-04 14:54:36 maaku is now known as Guest24413
1410 2014-03-04 14:54:45 <Emcy> gmaxwell good lord is that a potted history of bitcoin or what
1411 2014-03-04 14:55:17 <gmaxwell> it's missing a bunch too
1412 2014-03-04 14:55:17 <TD> the poloniex hack is especially stupid because it resulted from a lack of database transactions, and his proposed fix was "the withdrawal daemon should check for negative balances" wtf?!
1413 2014-03-04 14:55:27 <Emcy> that shit is going to be printed off and entered int he record on some hearing about regulating the shit out of bitcoin
1414 2014-03-04 14:55:53 <wumpus> another person misunderstanding the account system in bitcoind :( can we please get rid of it now
1415 2014-03-04 14:55:54 <TD> arguably if you're pretending to be a bank, you *should* have the shit regulated out of you. not that regulations can magically make software secure or people competent
1416 2014-03-04 14:55:55 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, MPOE-PR (or whatever) had a great, comprehensive list
1417 2014-03-04 14:55:59 <jgarzik> naturally excluding anything MP-related
1418 2014-03-04 14:56:13 <jgarzik> and full of expletives and silly insinuations
1419 2014-03-04 14:56:23 <gmaxwell> TD: other currently operating major services have had database atomoticity issues, but just weren't fatal.
1420 2014-03-04 14:56:47 <jgarzik> wumpus, +1
1421 2014-03-04 14:56:50 <TD> do popular frameworks not make atomic db operations easily accessible or something?
1422 2014-03-04 14:56:53 <Emcy> TD thats arguably true
1423 2014-03-04 14:56:59 <TD> it's been ages since i did any web app programming
1424 2014-03-04 14:57:05 <wumpus> people see the account system in bitcoind and think 'hey, I can store balances for users!'
1425 2014-03-04 14:57:16 <jgarzik> TD, Transactions Are Hard, Let's Let AutoCommit Handle It
1426 2014-03-04 14:57:19 <Goonie> TD: Is it correct that Bitcoin Core 0.9 will start creating outputs in the range of 5460-546 Satoshis in transactions that can go to bitcoinj wallets?
1427 2014-03-04 14:57:27 <TD> it won't create them
1428 2014-03-04 14:57:33 <jgarzik> (roughly paraphrasing many web db frameworks)
1429 2014-03-04 14:57:35 <Goonie> no?
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1432 2014-03-04 14:58:12 <TD> we have to wait for the new version to roll out sufficiently far before it's safe to create such transactions
1433 2014-03-04 14:58:15 <gmaxwell> TD: well examples you copy off the web generally don't encourage it. some services have been doing things using the trendy fast key=value systems without good transactions support, in fact.
1434 2014-03-04 14:58:29 nickler has joined
1435 2014-03-04 14:59:07 <TD> high level dynamic languages + technology designed for building web search engines + fashion == doom
1436 2014-03-04 14:59:34 <TD> i remember google's first attempt to build a social network on top of bigtable
1437 2014-03-04 14:59:41 <TD> no transactions, of course.
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1439 2014-03-04 14:59:54 <TD> so there were lots of nightly mapreductions that tried to find database inconsistencies and repair them
1440 2014-03-04 14:59:59 <kjj> nuke all references to accounts in the help listings and put big warnings on the wiki pages
1441 2014-03-04 15:00:15 <TD> sometimes you could find things like photo albums where you could click through forward but not backwards
1442 2014-03-04 15:00:36 <TD> in a social network that is merely inadequate. in a financial website ....
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1444 2014-03-04 15:01:26 <gmaxwell> See, even a place full of super smart people can make these mistakes... and without the crazy incentives of the possible profits from handling other people's money. :)
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1447 2014-03-04 15:02:19 <gmaxwell> kjj: But ... accounts are super useful for sticking flags on transactions, without them I'd have a much harder time of making sense of my transaction history. :( "WTF is that transaction for?!"
1448 2014-03-04 15:02:25 <TD> in fairness to the orkut team, this was the "new" version. the "old" version was a .NET app running on windows with SQL Server, and it melted down as soon as the site was switched on and went viral
1449 2014-03-04 15:02:40 <TD> the "new" version had all kinds of database consistency issues but it could handle a ton of traffic
1450 2014-03-04 15:03:07 <wumpus> gmaxwell: we'd keep the labeling of course
1451 2014-03-04 15:03:15 <wumpus> gmaxwell: just no faux balances and 'move' anymore
1452 2014-03-04 15:03:56 <gmaxwell> ah. +1 then, I think thats fine. would remove a bunch of codeâ code which I cannot always vouch for.
1453 2014-03-04 15:04:13 <jgarzik> "tags"
1454 2014-03-04 15:04:15 <wumpus> labeling receiving addresses (and even sending addresses) can be useful
1455 2014-03-04 15:04:20 <wumpus> UI uses both...
1456 2014-03-04 15:04:28 <kjj> gmaxwell: I'm not suggesting that we remove them. I'm suggesting that we don't draw attention to them without warnings
1457 2014-03-04 15:04:34 <jgarzik> apply one or more tags to a keypair
1458 2014-03-04 15:04:54 <kjj> how many months have been wasted here teaching people what accounts can and can't do?
1459 2014-03-04 15:04:55 <wumpus> even 'filter transactions by label' can be useful
1460 2014-03-04 15:05:15 <gmaxwell> kjj: not removing means keeping most of the costs...
1461 2014-03-04 15:05:28 <sipa> yeah, either get rid of them, or fix them
1462 2014-03-04 15:05:31 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes it would get rid of some questionable code as well
1463 2014-03-04 15:05:31 <sipa> i'd vote for the former
1464 2014-03-04 15:05:47 <kjj> they aren't broken, they just don't do what 99% of the people think they do
1465 2014-03-04 15:05:58 <gmaxwell> they are a little broken.
1466 2014-03-04 15:06:07 <gmaxwell> And a lot surprising.
1467 2014-03-04 15:06:10 <wumpus> kjj: those 99% of people all want something dfferent from them
1468 2014-03-04 15:06:37 <Persopolis> jgarzik & sipa - only outgoing connections are policed against being on the same /16 subnet, still haven't worked out how incoming connections get into main mesaging loops
1469 2014-03-04 15:06:54 <wumpus> kjj: which is a good indication that it belongs on another level, in the application
1470 2014-03-04 15:06:55 <sipa> Persopolis: thanks for looking it up
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1472 2014-03-04 15:07:08 <sipa> Persopolis: look at where the CNode constructor is called
1473 2014-03-04 15:07:20 <sipa> iirc that's in two places; once for outgoing and once for incoming
1474 2014-03-04 15:07:45 <wumpus> kjj: also the presence of an easy (looking) account system encourages people to store balances for others, which is what we want to avoid ...
1475 2014-03-04 15:08:13 <gmaxwell> well esp if they store balances for others using that.. doom awaits.
1476 2014-03-04 15:08:35 <sipa> especially lack of any reasonable way to keep backups
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1480 2014-03-04 15:09:34 <kjj> maintaining 3rd party deposits is beyond the scope of the reference client
1481 2014-03-04 15:09:49 <wumpus> yes
1482 2014-03-04 15:09:53 <sipa> kjj: i think that's the best argument so far for removing the accounts code
1483 2014-03-04 15:10:11 <sipa> i'd want a completerawtransaction RPC, which uses the coin selection code to take a partial raw transaction, and adds inputs + change outputs to make it complete transaction
1484 2014-03-04 15:10:23 <kjj> but as gmaxwell points out, they are useful for other things, essentially labels
1485 2014-03-04 15:10:37 <wumpus> kjj: labels will be kept regardless
1486 2014-03-04 15:10:39 <gmaxwell> yea, but most of their code complexity is related to the non-label use
1487 2014-03-04 15:11:02 <kjj> then nuke everything that's not needed for labelling
1488 2014-03-04 15:11:35 <kjj> sipa: I was looking at making raw versions of sendtoaddress and sendmany. they both need major refactoring
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1492 2014-03-04 15:14:02 <kjj> I'm not a big fan of passing a flag down 4 or 5 levels of calls, but that is the easiest way to do it.
1493 2014-03-04 15:14:48 <kjj> I don't spend enough time in the code to have a good idea of what the refactored version would look like
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1495 2014-03-04 15:15:55 <sipa> kjj: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3794
1496 2014-03-04 15:16:37 <kjj> I'll drop some comments there
1497 2014-03-04 15:17:07 <t7> wow github does realtime page updates
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1505 2014-03-04 15:27:51 <kjj> zoinks. That was way back in December
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1517 2014-03-04 15:38:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Emcy: <marquee> is, yeah. Actually, <blink> isn't, but I worked around that by copying a code snippet from Wikipedia
1518 2014-03-04 15:38:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|t7: yeah, though not always perfect
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1520 2014-03-04 15:39:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|When a PR is updated, for example, sometimes the Files tab won't update and will show the previous diff even though the new commit shows up in the discussion tab
1521 2014-03-04 15:39:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Or maybe that's just when you rewrite history, idk)
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1524 2014-03-04 15:42:50 <jgarzik> sipa, a transaction assistant RPC seems like it could potentially reduce "94 BTC in fees" type errors
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1526 2014-03-04 15:43:51 <sipa> jgarzik: i'd like to see things split up in 4 steps: 1) build your outputs (and potentially inputs you certainly want to use) manually 2) find inputs + change to make it a full but unsigned transactions 3) sign that transaction 4) send/commit that transaction to wallet
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1529 2014-03-04 15:44:13 <sipa> jgarzik: for 1) the parameters are outputs/amounts and potentially manual prevouts
1530 2014-03-04 15:44:55 <sipa> jgarzik: for 2) the parameters are a set of unspent outputs
1531 2014-03-04 15:44:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|17:42:11 <jgarzik> sipa, a transaction assistant RPC seems like it could potentially reduce "94 BTC in fees" type errors <-- already prevented in 0.9
1532 2014-03-04 15:46:26 <sipa> sorry, a set of unspent outputs + a keypool for sending change to
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1535 2014-03-04 15:46:38 <sipa> for 3) the parameters are a keystore
1536 2014-03-04 15:49:29 <jgarzik> sipa, "i'd like to see things split up in 4 steps" +1 on each of those steps
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1540 2014-03-04 15:50:29 <sipa> right now, you can either do 2/3/4 together using sendtoaddress/sendmany, or you can start at 3) using signrawtransaction/sendrawtransaction
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1543 2014-03-04 15:51:52 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think anything that has coin selection might want to take a strategy argument. E.g. I'd usually run with a modifier that says "add all/many of the txouts that go to the scriptpubkeys I'm already spending"
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1545 2014-03-04 15:52:13 <jgarzik> strategies
1546 2014-03-04 15:52:26 Gyps has quit (Quit: Gyps)
1547 2014-03-04 15:52:50 <jgarzik> {"conf-6", "conf-1", "dust removal"}
1548 2014-03-04 15:53:03 <sipa> we need a CoinSelectionStrategyFactoryAdaptorSingleton
1549 2014-03-04 15:53:48 <jgarzik> []
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1552 2014-03-04 15:54:23 <jgarzik> in kernel land we call that StudlyCaps
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1554 2014-03-04 15:57:25 <Persopolis> sipa - so far as I can tell, for incomming connections it does not care one bit about the source address - nodeId seems to be what is referenced and that is created per new socket connection regardless of source address
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1556 2014-03-04 15:57:40 <sipa> Persopolis: that's what i expected yes
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1558 2014-03-04 15:57:54 <gmaxwell> oh oh I know, it could take an argument with a bytecode that implements the strategy! :P
1559 2014-03-04 15:58:22 <sipa> we need a protobuf for defining the strategy
1560 2014-03-04 15:58:34 <sipa> so it can be passed as a payment protocol extension
1561 2014-03-04 15:58:56 <gmaxwell> maybe I'm wrong about it being an argument and coin selection stragey should just be a global setting, not sure.
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1563 2014-03-04 15:59:44 <gmaxwell> Most of the time I want to do maximal dust cleaning subject to the constraint that it not gratitiously hurt privacy. But my usage may be odd, I get a lot of small payments from p2pool mining.
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1581 2014-03-04 16:14:12 <HaltingState> sipa, people want that thing for exchanging symmetric keys with ECC, with the secret point on curve; can you add that to libray
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1585 2014-03-04 16:16:08 <sipa> you can already do ECDH with my library
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1589 2014-03-04 16:18:47 <Persopolis> sipa can I PM?
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1591 2014-03-04 16:18:58 <sipa> yes
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1593 2014-03-04 16:20:56 <HaltingState> sipa, is the function in secp256k1.h? I greped "ECDH"
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1595 2014-03-04 16:21:11 <sipa> HaltingState: you need the multiplicative tweak
1596 2014-03-04 16:21:31 <sipa> there's no "ECDH" as such in the library, but the required operations are there
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1598 2014-03-04 16:21:35 <sipa> it's trivial
1599 2014-03-04 16:22:04 <sipa> both compute a private key, compute the corresponding public key, send the public keys to eachother, and then tweak the other's public key with their own private key
1600 2014-03-04 16:22:09 <sipa> the result is the shared secret
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1602 2014-03-04 16:23:49 <kjj> the shared secret is (your private key) * (their public key), which is equal to G * (your privkey) * (their privkey)
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1605 2014-03-04 16:26:13 <HaltingState> sipa, tweak_mult is multiplication in curve and add is addition?
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1607 2014-03-04 16:26:25 <sipa> yes
1608 2014-03-04 16:27:16 <dhill> so flexcoin.com is done
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1610 2014-03-04 16:27:32 <kjj> it was done a while back when it changed ownership
1611 2014-03-04 16:28:26 <kjj> or at least that was the signal that I used to remove my meager deposit
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1613 2014-03-04 16:29:08 <sipa> i had never heard about it
1614 2014-03-04 16:29:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|same here
1615 2014-03-04 16:29:50 <kjj> they charged a fee to send, which was more than the mining fee, and they shared the difference with their depositors as a dividend
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1674 2014-03-04 17:03:30 <jcorgan> when will people start demanding much higher standards for bitcoin companies they send their BTC, fiat, and identity credentials to?
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1676 2014-03-04 17:03:58 <Apocalyptic> I think it's off-topic here
1677 2014-03-04 17:04:22 <jcorgan> sorry, wrong window
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1702 2014-03-04 17:18:02 <wumpus> jcorgan: maybe if someone publishes the human DNA on github it could be fixed? :p
1703 2014-03-04 17:18:26 <wumpus> or rather, human mind dump
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1706 2014-03-04 17:20:38 <jcorgan> i think nature is its own github, and DNA is being constantly edited and improvements identified through countless encounters. some 19th century biologist first figured this out :)
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1709 2014-03-04 17:21:46 <wumpus> hah
1710 2014-03-04 17:21:56 <HaltingState> sipa, confirm: if I have pubkey P and want to send them message. I choose random n and then send g^n and encrypt message with AES with key sha256( (g^n)^P))
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1715 2014-03-04 17:22:41 <sipa> HaltingState no, sha256(P^n)
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1717 2014-03-04 17:22:50 <sipa> (g^n)^P doesn't exist
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1772 2014-03-04 18:06:14 <dansmith_btc> Let's say, the same tx was broadcast from two points in the original and in the malled form. My bitcoind picked up the original, yet the malled nded up included n a block. Will my bitcond forever treat the original tx as unconfirmed?
1773 2014-03-04 18:06:46 <sipa> yes
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1782 2014-03-04 18:12:17 <wumpus> 0.9 treats it as 'conflicted'
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1798 2014-03-04 18:24:10 <dansmith_btc> Is my understanding correct that when I fund a 2-of-3 address, I should refrain from creating a spend-from-multisig tx until I see the confirmed txid? Is it possible to address utxo in any way which avoids knowing the txid?
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1847 2014-03-04 18:58:53 <andytoshi> dansmith_btc: no :( in bitcoin utxos are addressed by txid:output_index
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1920 2014-03-04 19:54:02 <chichov> what is precisely OP_CODESEPARATOR and SCRIPT_PART1 - SCRIPT_PART4 in https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png ?
1921 2014-03-04 19:54:17 mattco_ is now known as mattco
1922 2014-03-04 19:55:12 <sipa> chichov: you can reasonably assume it will never be used
1923 2014-03-04 19:55:13 <chichov> when I see the raw script in a transaction I only see the typical public key script encoding of: OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG
1924 2014-03-04 19:55:16 <sipa> chichov: it's ancient
1925 2014-03-04 19:55:50 <sipa> but if you encounter OP_CODESEPARATORs in scripts when computing a sighash, you must remove them
1926 2014-03-04 19:55:53 <chichov> sipa: alright, so I can simplify these things away without any concerns?
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1928 2014-03-04 19:56:15 <sipa> if you want to write verification code, you should take them into account
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1930 2014-03-04 19:56:21 <chichov> oh, that's new to me
1931 2014-03-04 19:56:24 <chichov> what are they used for?
1932 2014-03-04 19:56:30 <sipa> they're not used
1933 2014-03-04 19:56:35 <sipa> and they are completely useles
1934 2014-03-04 19:56:42 <sipa> but someone may still put them in a transaction
1935 2014-03-04 19:56:57 <chichov> something of a NOP?
1936 2014-03-04 19:57:02 <sipa> yes
1937 2014-03-04 19:57:28 <sipa> actually, no
1938 2014-03-04 19:57:34 <sipa> it will not have the intended effect
1939 2014-03-04 19:57:35 <chichov> mhm, another way to make transaction malleable?
1940 2014-03-04 19:57:41 Hunger- has joined
1941 2014-03-04 19:57:42 <sipa> that was the purpose yes, originally
1942 2014-03-04 19:57:57 <sipa> to control which part of a signature was signed
1943 2014-03-04 19:58:19 <chichov> stop right here, this doesn't make sense to me
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1945 2014-03-04 19:58:30 <chichov> you cannot sign a signature at the same time
1946 2014-03-04 19:58:38 <sipa> s/signature/script/, sorry
1947 2014-03-04 19:58:41 <chichov> without it existing prior to its creation
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1951 2014-03-04 19:59:01 <sipa> the codeseparator would be in the output script, not the signature
1952 2014-03-04 19:59:06 <chichov> aha, so its somewhat of a delimeter
1953 2014-03-04 19:59:09 <sipa> yes
1954 2014-03-04 19:59:15 <sipa> but it can't be used anymore
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1956 2014-03-04 19:59:32 <sipa> since the OP_RETURN changes which split evaluation of scripts into two parts
1957 2014-03-04 19:59:46 <sipa> and there is no meaningful way to use it anymore
1958 2014-03-04 19:59:59 <sipa> but if you're writing verification code, you should technically be prepared to deal with it
1959 2014-03-04 20:00:04 <sipa> as it's not illegal to use
1960 2014-03-04 20:00:08 <chichov> could you elaborate on the OP_RETURN? I haven't seen it anywhere in a typical script
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1962 2014-03-04 20:00:59 <sipa> back in 2009, scripts were evlauated by running scriptSig + OP_CODESEP + scriptPubKey, and requiring a nonzero result
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1965 2014-03-04 20:01:27 <chichov> from what I see now it's simply scriptSig + scriptPubKey ?
1966 2014-03-04 20:01:29 <sipa> someone realized (thankfully), that you could just put "1 OP_RETURN" in scriptSig, and it would always evaluate to true
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1968 2014-03-04 20:01:44 <sipa> no, now it's eval(scriptSig), copy the resulting stack, and then eval(scriptPubKey)
1969 2014-03-04 20:02:05 <sipa> so there were 2 changes made to deal with this
1970 2014-03-04 20:02:26 <sipa> first, OP_RETURN was changed from "stop processing here" to "stop processing and instantly mark the evaluation as failed"
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1972 2014-03-04 20:02:52 <sipa> secondly, instead of eval(scriptSig + OP_CODESEP + scriptPubKey), it was turned into 2 separate evaluations
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1974 2014-03-04 20:03:14 <chichov> very interesting - I haven't seen this noted anywhere
1975 2014-03-04 20:03:23 <chichov> ever since when is this done this way?
1976 2014-03-04 20:03:51 <sipa> somewhere in 2009 or 2010
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1978 2014-03-04 20:04:44 <chichov> I still always read that simply (scriptSig + scriptPubKey) is evaluated
1979 2014-03-04 20:04:58 <sipa> that's incorrect, it's more complicated
1980 2014-03-04 20:05:03 <chichov> thank you for pointing this out, else I'd have a huge bug in my documentation
1981 2014-03-04 20:05:04 <sipa> and with p2sh, it's way more complicated
1982 2014-03-04 20:05:58 <chichov> with p2-pubkey and p2-pubhash you do eval(scriptSig), copy stack, eval(scriptPubKey)?
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1984 2014-03-04 20:06:12 <sipa> with every script, that's what you do
1985 2014-03-04 20:06:15 xabbix has joined
1986 2014-03-04 20:06:25 <sipa> the script evaluation is independent of what type of template you use
1987 2014-03-04 20:06:41 <chichov> what is special about p2sh?
1988 2014-03-04 20:07:11 InsiderJoe has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1989 2014-03-04 20:07:17 <sipa> but with p2sh, there is an additional step, "magic", which cuts of the last element of the stack produced by eval(scriptSig), and re-running evaluation as if that stack element was the scriptPubKey
1990 2014-03-04 20:07:33 medellin has joined
1991 2014-03-04 20:07:48 <sipa> with the remaining stack elements as initial stack
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1994 2014-03-04 20:08:23 <chichov> that does sound indeed "magical"
1995 2014-03-04 20:08:29 <sipa> read bip16
1996 2014-03-04 20:08:37 <chichov> I'll have to read into that to understand the voodoo behind it
1997 2014-03-04 20:09:12 <sipa> the high-level purpose is simple: move the actual script (normally in scriptPubKey) to the input, and instead only have a hash of that script in scriptPubKey
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1999 2014-03-04 20:09:26 <sipa> which means the sender doesn't need to know the full script the receiver wants, only the hash of it
2000 2014-03-04 20:09:36 <sipa> further more, it takes less space in the UTXO set
2001 2014-03-04 20:11:00 <chichov> let me elaborate on this for a second
2002 2014-03-04 20:12:38 <chichov> typically, eg in a p2-pubhash transaction, we copy scriptPubKey in scriptSig of the input field, blank out all the scriptSig's of other inputs, serialize it, append the hashTypeCode and build a signature over that, right?
2003 2014-03-04 20:13:26 <sipa> computing the signature hash is a totally separate question
2004 2014-03-04 20:13:41 <sipa> i was just explaining the execution flow of evaluations :)
2005 2014-03-04 20:13:54 <sipa> but in the general case, that's about what happens for signature hashes yes
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2007 2014-03-04 20:16:08 <chichov> now from what I read in BIP16, you appear to include the hash of (pubkey OP_CHECKSIG) in scriptPubKey?
2008 2014-03-04 20:16:44 <sipa> if you'd want to use p2sh yes
2009 2014-03-04 20:17:13 <sipa> so the scriptPubKey becomes a script that checks not the actual condition, but just the presense of the right script
2010 2014-03-04 20:17:35 <sipa> and then there's the magical extra step that for such scripts, there is an addition run of the evaluation engine, on the embedded script
2011 2014-03-04 20:17:37 <chichov> how does this improve anything?
2012 2014-03-04 20:17:48 <sipa> the sender doesn't need to know what script the receiver wants
2013 2014-03-04 20:17:58 <sipa> and even better: can't
2014 2014-03-04 20:18:17 <sipa> (as it's none of his business)
2015 2014-03-04 20:18:29 medellin has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2016 2014-03-04 20:18:34 <chichov> but typically the sender has to specify conditions under which the output can be claimed
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2018 2014-03-04 20:18:49 <sipa> it's the receiver that determines those conditions, not the sender
2019 2014-03-04 20:19:02 <sipa> "i'd like you to pay to my safe 2-of-3 escrow address"
2020 2014-03-04 20:19:14 <chichov> in p2sh, you mean?
2021 2014-03-04 20:19:22 <sipa> always
2022 2014-03-04 20:19:50 <sipa> i determine to which script (or address) you can send something before i consider your debt paid
2023 2014-03-04 20:20:22 <sipa> it's no different in non-bitcoin: i choose which bank account and with which message you need to pay, before i consider an invoice paid
2024 2014-03-04 20:20:46 <chichov> but you typically specify eg that the pubkey has to be X and that you know the private key matchin it
2025 2014-03-04 20:20:58 <sipa> the sender doesn't care what that condition is
2026 2014-03-04 20:20:59 <chichov> matching*
2027 2014-03-04 20:21:23 <chichov> well, he wants to make sure that only the right person can claim it
2028 2014-03-04 20:21:28 <sipa> yes
2029 2014-03-04 20:21:37 <sipa> but the sender just said "pay to address A"
2030 2014-03-04 20:21:42 <sipa> eh
2031 2014-03-04 20:21:45 <chichov> more or less, yea
2032 2014-03-04 20:21:53 <sipa> the receiver just says "pay to address A"
2033 2014-03-04 20:22:00 <sipa> the sender doesn't care what that address is
2034 2014-03-04 20:22:04 <chichov> but he also said: "he has to know the pubkey of hash(pubkey) and the private key"
2035 2014-03-04 20:22:05 <sipa> or what pubkey is associated with it
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2037 2014-03-04 20:22:19 <sipa> yes, the sender needs to _state_ that in his transaction
2038 2014-03-04 20:22:24 <sipa> but doesn't _care_ about it
2039 2014-03-04 20:22:40 <sipa> the receiver determines what the sender has to put in his transaction output
2040 2014-03-04 20:22:52 <chichov> yep, that's right
2041 2014-03-04 20:23:05 <sipa> so, extend this to complex scripts
2042 2014-03-04 20:23:09 <sipa> you owe me something
2043 2014-03-04 20:23:13 <chichov> and the magic of p2sh is that we can turn it around?
2044 2014-03-04 20:23:20 <sipa> no, it makes it right
2045 2014-03-04 20:23:37 <sipa> but i'm using a fancy multidevice wallet which uses signatures from both my pc and my phone
2046 2014-03-04 20:23:52 <chichov> "bleh"
2047 2014-03-04 20:24:04 <sipa> before p2sh, i'd need to tell you "i want you to send coins to <special script with pubkey X and pubkey Y>"
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2049 2014-03-04 20:24:13 <sipa> and you'd need a way to enter that in your wallet software
2050 2014-03-04 20:24:24 <chichov> exactly
2051 2014-03-04 20:24:26 <sipa> so you'd have arbitrarily long addresses, as they'd need to encode all scripts
2052 2014-03-04 20:24:31 <chichov> but I don't really want to bother with that
2053 2014-03-04 20:24:38 <sipa> with p2sh, all i need to do is tell you the hash of that complex script
2054 2014-03-04 20:24:43 <sipa> which is as long as a normal address
2055 2014-03-04 20:25:03 <sipa> and you don't even need to know that i'm using a fancy multidevice wallet
2056 2014-03-04 20:25:11 <sipa> in fact, you can't know (until i spend it again)
2057 2014-03-04 20:25:18 <chichov> yep
2058 2014-03-04 20:25:56 <chichov> so, instead of "special extra long script" you give me a hash of that
2059 2014-03-04 20:25:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And the scripts can be as simple or as complex as you want
2060 2014-03-04 20:26:04 <chichov> what changes for the receiver?
2061 2014-03-04 20:26:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|chichov: Basically, the receiver can get their coins paid to whatever script they want
2062 2014-03-04 20:26:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Whether that's a multisig, or anything else
2063 2014-03-04 20:26:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You can also do things like publish the script as a challenge
2064 2014-03-04 20:27:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;lucky site:bitcointalk.org hash collision bounty
2065 2014-03-04 20:27:09 <gribble> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293382.0
2066 2014-03-04 20:27:13 daybyter has joined
2067 2014-03-04 20:27:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Like that^
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2069 2014-03-04 20:27:56 <chichov> good luck finding a collision on these^^
2070 2014-03-04 20:28:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So it's known that the 2.47173817 BTC at address 37k7toV1Nv4DfmQbmZ8KuZDQCYK9x5KpzP can be claimed by anyone who can show a SHA1 collision
2071 2014-03-04 20:28:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And because they're addresses, anyone can send to them to contribute to the bounty
2072 2014-03-04 20:32:26 <gmaxwell> wow, thats up to 2.471 btc now?
2073 2014-03-04 20:33:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Apparently
2074 2014-03-04 20:33:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, just realized I think I forgot to PR my gitian sigs for 0.9.0rc2
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2081 2014-03-04 20:36:32 <chichov> alright, now I get the idea behind p2sh, thanks a lot!
2082 2014-03-04 20:36:33 <chichov> are there any good reasons to evaluate scripts as eval(scriptSig), copy stack, eval(pubKeyScript) after OP_RETURN was banned?
2083 2014-03-04 20:37:18 <sipa> maybe not
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2085 2014-03-04 20:37:43 <sipa> but it's still unclear to me in what ways the two scripts could be made to unintentionally interact
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2087 2014-03-04 20:37:57 <sipa> so i think it's nice to have a clear separation
2088 2014-03-04 20:38:08 <chichov> and no strange OP_CODESEPERATORs huh?
2089 2014-03-04 20:38:33 Goonie has joined
2090 2014-03-04 20:39:06 <sipa> we should ban those :)
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2093 2014-03-04 20:40:07 <chichov> alright, now that everything is clear, I'll get back to writing my specification
2094 2014-03-04 20:40:14 <chichov> sipa: thanks for the help
2095 2014-03-04 20:43:45 <chichov> now that I read the wiki article on Script, all the evaluations would have to be rewritten
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2097 2014-03-04 20:44:28 <chichov> good thing I've asked you
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2113 2014-03-04 20:57:52 <chichov> one thing is odd - in pay-to-pubkey when evaluating the public key script the topmost element is the signature instead of the public key
2114 2014-03-04 20:58:22 <chichov> is there any special trick how this is fixed?
2115 2014-03-04 20:58:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm?
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2117 2014-03-04 20:58:45 <sipa> why does it need to be fixed?
2118 2014-03-04 20:58:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's correct.
2119 2014-03-04 20:59:09 <sipa> the alternative would require a swap before checking
2120 2014-03-04 20:59:26 Lightsword has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2121 2014-03-04 20:59:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Er, wait
2122 2014-03-04 20:59:40 <chichov> doesn't the first element on the stack have to be the public key and then the signature?
2123 2014-03-04 20:59:48 <sipa> no
2124 2014-03-04 20:59:54 <sipa> oh
2125 2014-03-04 21:00:06 <sipa> the topmost element needs to be the signature, the one before the pubkey
2126 2014-03-04 21:00:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|chichov: in pay-to-pubkey, the scriptsig is just the sig
2127 2014-03-04 21:00:08 <chichov> sounds like a bingo
2128 2014-03-04 21:00:17 <sipa> ehm
2129 2014-03-04 21:00:18 <sipa> wait
2130 2014-03-04 21:00:21 <sipa> the other way around
2131 2014-03-04 21:00:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Then the scriptPubKey pushes the pubkey
2132 2014-03-04 21:00:36 <sipa> as the scriptSig is evaluated first, so the pubkey is pushed after the signature
2133 2014-03-04 21:00:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|so the pubkey is on top, then the signature
2134 2014-03-04 21:00:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And that's the correct order
2135 2014-03-04 21:01:23 <chichov> yep, true
2136 2014-03-04 21:01:34 <chichov> confused the hell out of it
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2138 2014-03-04 21:02:48 <chichov> switched it in my drawings and wondered what I've created
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2140 2014-03-04 21:04:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: do you have write access to the gitian.sigs repo?
2141 2014-03-04 21:04:40 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: yes
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2161 2014-03-04 21:25:31 <chichov> why is nSequence set for all inputs, aside from the current one, to 0 for SIGHASH_NONE?
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2167 2014-03-04 21:29:05 <gmaxwell> chichov: because they're being masked out so they don't change the signature... so the signature isn't invalidated by them being updated.
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2169 2014-03-04 21:30:31 <chichov> is the same done for SIGHASH_ALL?
2170 2014-03-04 21:31:10 <sipa> with sighash all you do not want to allow the inputs to be updated, so no
2171 2014-03-04 21:31:15 <chichov> I can imagine it's not, but want to be sure
2172 2014-03-04 21:31:29 <sipa> use the source
2173 2014-03-04 21:31:46 <chichov> alright, makes sense. The others change
2174 2014-03-04 21:32:20 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L1035
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2176 2014-03-04 21:33:14 <chichov> alright, thanks
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2182 2014-03-04 21:43:02 <chichov> I just see an odd discrepancy - according to the wiki in the SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY the input vector is set to a length of 1 and then the subScript is set as the first member of the input vector
2183 2014-03-04 21:43:30 <chichov> whereas in the code it's simply the current transaction input that is set as the only member of the input vector (which makes more sense)
2184 2014-03-04 21:44:05 <chichov> so, is there a mistake in the wiki or did I misinterpret something?
2185 2014-03-04 21:44:08 <sipa> link?
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2187 2014-03-04 21:44:48 <chichov> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIG
2188 2014-03-04 21:45:02 <chichov> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L1025
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2190 2014-03-04 21:46:55 <sipa> both are correct
2191 2014-03-04 21:47:09 <sipa> the serialization of the subscript happens in line 10333
2192 2014-03-04 21:47:10 <sipa> 1033
2193 2014-03-04 21:48:11 <sipa> 1025 just makes sure that even if nIn is 0, we serialize for the input being signed
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2195 2014-03-04 21:48:44 <sipa> you may want to look at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/test/sighash_tests.cpp
2196 2014-03-04 21:48:52 <sipa> which contains the old code for computing the sighash
2197 2014-03-04 21:49:01 <sipa> which is what is described on the wiki
2198 2014-03-04 21:49:05 <chichov> indeed, the it sounds promising
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2201 2014-03-04 21:49:12 <sipa> the result of both should be identical, of course
2202 2014-03-04 21:49:15 <chichov> s/the//
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2204 2014-03-04 21:51:15 <chichov> so you simply use scriptPubKey of the referenced output?
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2206 2014-03-04 21:51:35 <sipa> no, whatever is passed in as scriptCode
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2208 2014-03-04 21:51:57 <sipa> if there are no codeseparators, that is equal to the whole scriptPubkey
2209 2014-03-04 21:52:10 <chichov> oh, that's what you mean
2210 2014-03-04 21:53:00 <chichov> any reason why all the other input fields are basically blanked out?
2211 2014-03-04 21:53:13 <sipa> so they can be signed independently
2212 2014-03-04 21:53:28 <sipa> otherwise you'd need to wait for input 1 to be signed before you can sign input 2
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2214 2014-03-04 21:54:08 <chichov> uhm, what I mean is that prevout and nSequence are gone as well
2215 2014-03-04 21:54:11 <chichov> at least so it seems
2216 2014-03-04 21:55:02 <sipa> that's not true
2217 2014-03-04 21:55:11 <sipa> only for sighash_single and sighash_none
2218 2014-03-04 21:55:37 <chichov> that's what I understand when I read "subScript is set as the first and only member of this vector" (in the input vector context)
2219 2014-03-04 21:56:00 <sipa> meh, just follow the code
2220 2014-03-04 21:56:06 <chichov> alright
2221 2014-03-04 21:56:13 <sipa> the wiki desciption is certainly inaccurate at least, and possibly just wrong
2222 2014-03-04 21:56:47 <chichov> okay then, thanks
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2269 2014-03-04 22:38:14 <BCB> anyone know why there is a node called AAP-MultiServices off the coast of Africa
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2311 2014-03-04 23:10:10 <richcollins> According to block explorer, these two blocks happened out of order chronologically
2312 2014-03-04 23:10:10 <richcollins> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/block/0000000007c5db3c84b8b499317056610d502a07f5a25c6dc170cc9caa82f141
2313 2014-03-04 23:10:13 <richcollins> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/block/000000000005b77c8fde1406794363d00ebe47c01e4fb3e7a45c4126db6fe43e
2314 2014-03-04 23:10:26 <richcollins> Am I misunderstanding the Time field or is block explorer broken?
2315 2014-03-04 23:10:31 <sipa> perfectly normal
2316 2014-03-04 23:10:44 <sipa> the timestamp field has an allowed range of over 2 hours
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2319 2014-03-04 23:13:09 <richcollins> ah ok
2320 2014-03-04 23:13:57 <richcollins> sipa how does that happen in practice?
2321 2014-03-04 23:14:13 <sipa> miners chooses the timestamp. done.
2322 2014-03-04 23:14:13 <richcollins> Since the next block has to refer the previous
2323 2014-03-04 23:14:41 <sipa> there is no requirement that the next block's timestamp is after the previous
2324 2014-03-04 23:14:57 <richcollins> sipa, OK thanks
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2326 2014-03-04 23:15:21 <sipa> the actua condition is: the timestamp of a block needs to be after the median of the past 11 ones
2327 2014-03-04 23:15:28 <sipa> and less than 2 hours in the future
2328 2014-03-04 23:15:49 <sipa> which typically means ~3 hours range
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2343 2014-03-04 23:25:54 <Persopolis> bitcoin-qt in server mode should go beyond 8 connections i assume?
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2346 2014-03-04 23:27:30 <gmaxwell> Persopolis: has nothing to do with 'server mode'â it just depends on you having incoming connections working.
2347 2014-03-04 23:28:23 <Persopolis> ah thanks - thought it may have been to do with pre-release state
2348 2014-03-04 23:29:08 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
2349 2014-03-04 23:29:45 <Persopolis> 8 a hard limit on outgoing connections then?
2350 2014-03-04 23:29:59 <gmaxwell> Yes, and a really ample one in any case.
2351 2014-03-04 23:30:13 Zifre has joined
2352 2014-03-04 23:30:24 <Persopolis> indeed - just didn't twig and tried to add node without effect :)
2353 2014-03-04 23:30:53 <sipa> iirc you can -addnode more than 8 nodes
2354 2014-03-04 23:31:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: not currently.
2355 2014-03-04 23:31:56 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2356 2014-03-04 23:32:18 johnsoft has joined
2357 2014-03-04 23:32:30 <gmaxwell> sipa: it won't be able to get a semaphore.
2358 2014-03-04 23:32:56 <gmaxwell> this also results in stupidtly like it not connecting to your addnoded peers because they go down and it fills in a random peer first.
2359 2014-03-04 23:33:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: iirc, -addnode tries to grab a semaphore, but continues if it fails
2360 2014-03-04 23:34:09 <gmaxwell> sipa: sure, but if you're full it will just continue forever. with a long (minute?) sleep.
2361 2014-03-04 23:34:20 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2362 2014-03-04 23:34:58 Coincidental has joined
2363 2014-03-04 23:35:01 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2364 2014-03-04 23:35:38 <gmaxwell> e.g. my mining node right now has addnode=public.us-west.relay.mattcorallo.com:8334 but getpeerinfo | grep addr | grep 8334
2365 2014-03-04 23:35:42 <gmaxwell> returns nothing.
2366 2014-03-04 23:35:55 chichov has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2367 2014-03-04 23:36:08 <gmaxwell> if I restart it, it'll connect to it, but eventually it loses it, and because addrnode is less agressive than the reconnect logic it won't last.
2368 2014-03-04 23:38:11 <gmaxwell> Arguably this is a security bug. :-/
2369 2014-03-04 23:38:50 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2370 2014-03-04 23:38:50 <sipa> the connect logic should be merged for both
2371 2014-03-04 23:39:05 <sipa> so it just considers addnoded peers first, if a new connection is to be established
2372 2014-03-04 23:39:17 <gmaxwell> I agree, what I also think we should do is allow one extra connection, and if we have too many, pick one to hang up.
2373 2014-03-04 23:39:33 <sipa> yeah, peer rotation
2374 2014-03-04 23:39:56 <BCB> gmaxwell: why are there six nodes in the ocean off the coast of africa?
2375 2014-03-04 23:39:58 <gmaxwell> even ignoring rotation... e.g. if we have slots used by non-addnode nodes and there are addnode nodes we're not connected to.
2376 2014-03-04 23:39:59 chichov has joined
2377 2014-03-04 23:40:09 <gmaxwell> BCB: because your geolocation database is dumb.
2378 2014-03-04 23:40:17 <sipa> gmaxwell: right
2379 2014-03-04 23:40:23 basylib has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2380 2014-03-04 23:40:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: I have some mixed feelings about rotation, it's hard to reason about the threat model. We should certantly rotate if we think we might be isolated, bother otherwise we might be more private to stick with the same nodes. :(
2381 2014-03-04 23:41:09 <BCB> gmaxwell: so my google geolocation DB is different than your db
2382 2014-03-04 23:41:17 <gmaxwell> "your db"?
2383 2014-03-04 23:41:51 Krellan has quit (Excess Flood)
2384 2014-03-04 23:42:16 <gmaxwell> BCB: what are you looking at precisely?
2385 2014-03-04 23:42:17 Krellan has joined
2386 2014-03-04 23:42:25 <BCB> gmaxwell: you said "my" geolocation DB
2387 2014-03-04 23:42:38 <BCB> the first node my transaction hit on blockchain.info
2388 2014-03-04 23:42:46 [CS]Kiro has joined
2389 2014-03-04 23:42:50 <gmaxwell> so go yell at bc.i?
2390 2014-03-04 23:42:52 <sipa> well something is giving you IP addresses, and something is translating those to geolocations
2391 2014-03-04 23:43:25 <BCB> I thought you guys would know. Thanks. I'll do that
2392 2014-03-04 23:43:57 <gmaxwell> BCB: if its off the coast of africa it's probably lat long 0,0
2393 2014-03-04 23:45:40 <sipa> gmaxwell: hmm
2394 2014-03-04 23:46:01 <sipa> gmaxwell: even if done at very low frequency (like one rotation per hour)?
2395 2014-03-04 23:46:48 <gmaxwell> sipa: Not sure. There is a whole paper on this question realtive tor tor, and it made them implement special functionality where your tor node will pick a small set of nodes to _always_ use as its first hop.
2396 2014-03-04 23:47:15 InsiderJoe has joined
2397 2014-03-04 23:47:46 <gmaxwell> basically, assuming that the user transacts constantly, and the attacker has some fraction of the network, and that getting a couple first hop transactions from the user identifies it... how long can this go on until they get caught?
2398 2014-03-04 23:48:38 <gmaxwell> w/ rotation it's 100% after a long enough time, while "always use a particular set of entrance nodes" is the strategy that reduces your odds of getting caught to just the fraction of the nodes the attacker controls in that model.
2399 2014-03-04 23:49:00 <Persopolis> but tor's weakness in terms identification is first hop - do we have a similar concern?
2400 2014-03-04 23:49:12 mariorz has joined
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2402 2014-03-04 23:49:44 <gmaxwell> Persopolis: we do, though in some cases worse than tor's in some cases less than tors.
2403 2014-03-04 23:50:37 <mariorz> hi. I have a couple of nodes running on the testnet that claim to have downloaded the whole blockchain but their blockcount does not match among them or with the one reported here http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/q/getblockcount
2404 2014-03-04 23:50:53 YoY__ has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2405 2014-03-04 23:51:06 <mariorz> one reports 53395, the other 53408
2406 2014-03-04 23:51:11 <gmaxwell> "blocks" : 202855,
2407 2014-03-04 23:51:31 <gmaxwell> ^ testnet
2408 2014-03-04 23:51:32 chichov has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2409 2014-03-04 23:51:41 <mariorz> yeah, that's what blockexplorer.com reports too
2410 2014-03-04 23:51:42 _yoy_ has joined
2411 2014-03-04 23:51:53 <mariorz> what could be up with my nodes?
2412 2014-03-04 23:52:12 InsiderJoe has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2413 2014-03-04 23:52:14 _yoy_ has quit (Client Quit)
2414 2014-03-04 23:52:27 <gmaxwell> you're not actually running the current testnet?
2415 2014-03-04 23:52:36 <gmaxwell> what bitcoin version are you using?
2416 2014-03-04 23:54:02 <HaltingState> sipa, n * Q, n is private key, Q is pubkey, pubkey is point on curve, privatekey is integer; so n*Q on left is Q raised to power of private key (multiplication in curve/notation?)
2417 2014-03-04 23:54:04 <mariorz> oh, probably not the latest
2418 2014-03-04 23:54:33 <HaltingState> is there any convension with writing it on left/right or its communicative so it doesnt matter?
2419 2014-03-04 23:54:36 <mariorz> did not know there are different testnets per version, will get the latest
2420 2014-03-04 23:54:40 <mariorz> gmaxwell: thanks
2421 2014-03-04 23:54:54 soheil has joined
2422 2014-03-04 23:54:58 <sipa> HaltingState: n*P = P*n = n point additions of P with itself
2423 2014-03-04 23:55:08 InsiderJoe has joined
2424 2014-03-04 23:55:16 bbrian has joined
2425 2014-03-04 23:55:17 <sipa> where point addition is the EC group operation
2426 2014-03-04 23:56:27 <mariorz> I'm running version 32400 on both nodes
2427 2014-03-04 23:56:28 <HaltingState> sipa, point additions are not commutative in ecc curves right?
2428 2014-03-04 23:56:36 mxisaac has joined
2429 2014-03-04 23:56:57 <Persopolis> gmaxwell: can you elaborate on privacy aspect of bitcoin regarding node connections - not got my head around threats posed
2430 2014-03-04 23:57:09 agricocb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2431 2014-03-04 23:57:20 agricocb has joined
2432 2014-03-04 23:57:32 <sipa> mariorz: where did you get that?
2433 2014-03-04 23:57:58 <sipa> mariorz: 0.3.24 is almost 3 years old
2434 2014-03-04 23:58:06 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2435 2014-03-04 23:58:12 <sipa> and anything below 0.8 is unlikely to work still
2436 2014-03-04 23:58:19 <mariorz> sipa: probably from synaptic
2437 2014-03-04 23:58:22 _yoy_ has joined
2438 2014-03-04 23:58:57 <mariorz> sipa: will get latest, thanks for the help