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3 2014-03-05 00:01:43 <alex_fun> hello, I saw there is QR facility in wallet, so how i can pay someone if I got their QR code?
4 2014-03-05 00:01:54 <alex_fun> can qt somehow scan it?
5 2014-03-05 00:02:37 <gmaxwell> Persopolis: we would prefer someone not be able to identify which node a transaction originated from. If you have many nodes observing the network and watch timing, and transactions are frequent you can use traffic analysis to make reasonable guesses. I don't think there is anything especially weird about it.
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8 2014-03-05 00:02:53 <gmaxwell> It's similar, though not quite the same as the traffic analysis attacks you get in tor from controlling the entrance nodes.
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11 2014-03-05 00:03:39 <alex_fun> yes tor have been analyses via such tech imo
12 2014-03-05 00:03:45 <HaltingState> sipa, if a person has n*G where G is the base point, and they know n, can they compute the inverse of n*G for addition operator in curve
13 2014-03-05 00:03:59 <Persopolis> gmaxwell: so rotating should in theory help?
14 2014-03-05 00:04:07 <HaltingState> can you get inverse of n*G without knowing n?
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16 2014-03-05 00:04:44 <HaltingState> inverse for addition is easy, but inverse for n times addition is intractable without n?
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18 2014-03-05 00:06:01 <sipa> HaltingState: correct
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20 2014-03-05 00:07:13 <HaltingState> oh, so if they know n*G, then they compute additive inverse of G and then do addition addition on it n times
21 2014-03-05 00:07:15 <gmaxwell> Persopolis: no, rotating increases your chance of being discovered eventually to 100% under most parameter sets in that model.
22 2014-03-05 00:07:20 <HaltingState> ok, this makes sense now
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25 2014-03-05 00:07:39 <gmaxwell> Persopolis: while just using a constant set makes your risk the same as your initial risk (some constant factor on the number of attacker controlled nodes)
26 2014-03-05 00:07:48 <sipa> HaltingState: i don't understand what you're talking about; the group operation doesn't really come into play ever
27 2014-03-05 00:08:04 <HaltingState> sipa, addition is the group operator?
28 2014-03-05 00:08:07 <sipa> yes
29 2014-03-05 00:09:07 <HaltingState> you need inverse operator for addition, to apply to the base point
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31 2014-03-05 00:09:15 <sipa> heh?
32 2014-03-05 00:09:47 <Persopolis> gmaxwell: understood
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34 2014-03-05 00:10:39 <alex_fun> sipa have u ever managed to compiled pkg config on windows to install qr libraries for QT? :)
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36 2014-03-05 00:10:53 <sipa> alex_fun: i haven't used windows in 15 years
37 2014-03-05 00:10:59 <alex_fun> sipa lol oki
38 2014-03-05 00:11:22 <alex_fun> Persopolis: are u trying to futher anon coins use?
39 2014-03-05 00:11:39 <alex_fun> that zero coin solution seems kinda complex
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42 2014-03-05 00:12:27 <Persopolis> alex_fun: no we were just discussing connection strategey for bitcoind
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44 2014-03-05 00:12:44 <alex_fun> oki
45 2014-03-05 00:12:57 <sipa> HaltingState: i don't understand where the inverse operation comes into play
46 2014-03-05 00:13:05 <alex_fun> I so far learn how initial diff set and how its works abit
47 2014-03-05 00:13:11 <sipa> HaltingState: it's used in practice to optimize the multiplication a bit
48 2014-03-05 00:13:16 <alex_fun> as to how make transactions anon yet to see :)
49 2014-03-05 00:13:48 <sipa> HaltingState: but semantically it's not really needed
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53 2014-03-05 00:15:01 <alex_fun> maybe someone here came across this error GLib must be build with -march=i486 or later. when trying to add qr lib for WIN QT, on OSX it works fine :)
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57 2014-03-05 00:15:36 <alex_fun> sipa: btw osx wallet came out to be easy, once I used macdeploy :)
58 2014-03-05 00:15:58 <sipa> i have no idea what you're even trying to do
59 2014-03-05 00:16:03 <sipa> or talking about
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61 2014-03-05 00:16:10 <HaltingState> sipa, i am trying to figure out what information each person has and what they can derive from that information so addition comes into play a little bit
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64 2014-03-05 00:16:42 <sipa> HaltingState: you have a and B, i have A and b
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66 2014-03-05 00:16:52 <sipa> where A = a*G and B = b*G
67 2014-03-05 00:17:07 <sipa> so both can compute a*B = b*A = a*b*G
68 2014-03-05 00:17:22 <HaltingState> but what if you dont have my pubkey
69 2014-03-05 00:17:30 <sipa> i always do
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71 2014-03-05 00:17:34 <HaltingState> i have to send my pubkey with the message
72 2014-03-05 00:17:35 <sipa> you can't do ECDH otherwise
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74 2014-03-05 00:17:42 <sipa> yes?
75 2014-03-05 00:17:57 <sipa> so in that case, one of the keys is the actual receiver's pubkey
76 2014-03-05 00:18:03 <sipa> the other is an ephemeral key
77 2014-03-05 00:18:12 <sipa> created by the sender, just for this message
78 2014-03-05 00:18:19 <HaltingState> so my pubkey is in plaintext, so i should generate new random pubkey for first part until session key is setup for symmetric encryption
79 2014-03-05 00:18:33 <sipa> so i want to send an encrypted message to you
80 2014-03-05 00:18:41 <sipa> i have you public key P = p*G
81 2014-03-05 00:18:55 <sipa> i generate an ephemeral key E = e*G
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83 2014-03-05 00:19:21 <sipa> and compute H(e*P), and send (E,enc(key=H(e*P),msg))
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86 2014-03-05 00:19:52 <sipa> the receiver than has p and E, so can compute p*E = p*e*G = e*p*G = e*P, and the hash thereof
87 2014-03-05 00:19:58 <sipa> and can thus decrypt the message
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95 2014-03-05 00:23:33 <keyboard> is that el gamal?
96 2014-03-05 00:24:59 <sipa> almost
97 2014-03-05 00:25:23 <sipa> el gamal uses the shared secret directly and multiplies it with the message, which put very strict constraints on the message
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99 2014-03-05 00:25:36 <sipa> sorry, adds to
100 2014-03-05 00:25:58 <sipa> first hashing it and using that as key for a symmetric encryption algorithm is almost always better
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106 2014-03-05 00:29:57 * Persopolis bids you good night
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110 2014-03-05 00:33:34 <HaltingState> sipa, if someone cracks the ephemeral key E, they can recover e, but without knowing P or p, they still cant recover the symmetric key?
111 2014-03-05 00:34:04 <sipa> recovering either e or p is enough
112 2014-03-05 00:34:15 <sipa> as E and P are public
113 2014-03-05 00:34:21 <HaltingState> but if P is not public
114 2014-03-05 00:34:32 <sipa> at least the sender knows P
115 2014-03-05 00:34:38 <sipa> you must assume the attacker does too
116 2014-03-05 00:34:51 <sipa> otherwise, you could just use P as key
117 2014-03-05 00:35:20 <HaltingState> if the attacker is only reading the packet stream, they can get E, and crack E to get e, but without knowing p or P (which are not sent in packet) they cant decrypt it; so they have to get p/P (somehow)
118 2014-03-05 00:35:37 <sipa> you arguing beside the point
119 2014-03-05 00:35:52 <sipa> if your attack model is an attacker who doesn't know P, then you should be using P as key
120 2014-03-05 00:36:28 <sipa> in every other case, you must assume the attacker knows E and P
121 2014-03-05 00:36:34 <sipa> and that's fine
122 2014-03-05 00:36:47 <sipa> the security is based on not being able to recover e or p from those
123 2014-03-05 00:36:57 <sipa> which requires solving the ECDLP problem
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160 2014-03-05 01:04:09 <HaltingState> sipa, does djb have any opinions on the koblitz curves? is he using them for nacl?
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162 2014-03-05 01:04:59 <gmaxwell> djb has his own pet curve whos implementation gets performance in other ways.
163 2014-03-05 01:05:17 <HaltingState> is he critical of the NIST curves?
164 2014-03-05 01:05:23 <gmaxwell> sure, who isn't?
165 2014-03-05 01:05:32 <gmaxwell> (good thing we don't use one)
166 2014-03-05 01:06:01 <HaltingState> i was screaming at telehash/xmpp guy for using the r1 curve and he thought it was the "secure" one, with those hidden parameters
167 2014-03-05 01:06:14 <gmaxwell> he's whined about the rho speedup that endomorphism in our curve gives.. about a 1.5 bit reduction in security, but then his own preferred curve of this size is several bits weaker rho security wise to begin with.
168 2014-03-05 01:06:16 <HaltingState> curves with "random" parameters are safer, suppodely, lol
169 2014-03-05 01:06:38 <HaltingState> is the secp256k1 curve in prime field or what is the order of the field?
170 2014-03-05 01:06:58 <gmaxwell> it's a prime field.
171 2014-03-05 01:07:19 <gmaxwell> (DJB's own preferred curve has a cofactor which is a bit boggling)
172 2014-03-05 01:08:06 * jcorgan is just happy i can finally follow this conversation and have a reasonable understanding of what you're talking about :)
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175 2014-03-05 01:09:54 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, there was graduate student with some paper on parameters for ecc curves and potential insecure if some polynomial held, but only held for very specificly constructed curves and he wasnt allowed to publish paper or something
176 2014-03-05 01:10:01 <HaltingState> and no one will tell me exactly what was in paper
177 2014-03-05 01:10:22 * gmaxwell expresses skepticism
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179 2014-03-05 01:12:25 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, non-prime field ECC
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183 2014-03-05 01:13:35 <gmaxwell> ah, well my skepticism is independant of that, but yea, I really would be hard pressed to use a non-prime field.
184 2014-03-05 01:14:03 <gmaxwell> though I'm not aware of any reason why DJB's cofactor of 8 would itself break anything.
185 2014-03-05 01:16:18 <HaltingState> something with koblitz curves
186 2014-03-05 01:16:42 <HaltingState> http://crypto.stackexchange.com/a/2882
187 2014-03-05 01:17:05 <gmaxwell> the word koblitz is usless.
188 2014-03-05 01:17:21 <gmaxwell> what is commonly called koblitz is not the curve we use.
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190 2014-03-05 01:17:38 <gmaxwell> most things called koblitz are implemented over a binary field, which I wouldn't touch with a 5 foot pole.
191 2014-03-05 01:18:02 <gmaxwell> our curve has a cofactor of 1.
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195 2014-03-05 01:21:10 <HaltingState> i remember in undergraduate doing index calculus algorithm and remember something value about groups with order divisible by small primes being weak. but wiki says the attack doesnt work for ecc
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211 2014-03-05 01:35:42 <sipa> gmaxwell: why wouldn't you use curves over a binary field?
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222 2014-03-05 01:47:32 <gmaxwell> sipa: there a bunch of transfer like attack progress for characteristic-2 fields, not enough to break anything. None of these techniques look applicable to large characteristic (though they could be applied to any small characteristic like 2 or 3)
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227 2014-03-05 01:49:53 <gmaxwell> (and the other reason I would generally avoid characteristic 2 is that there are a whole lot of patents around it.. like seas of patents that look like "do obvious thing in a field with characteristic-2")
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262 2014-03-05 02:25:01 <Belxjander> maybe a completely dumb question...but what are the PoW scripting limitations for transactions?
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264 2014-03-05 02:25:28 <Belxjander> can you specify for within a set time the transaction then initiates a reversal transaction ?
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336 2014-03-05 03:53:37 <lnovy> !seen bd_
337 2014-03-05 03:53:38 <gribble> bd_ was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 year, 18 weeks, 2 days, 18 hours, 22 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <bd_> when most of the data is pseudorandom keys and signatures, compression doesn't make much difference. on-disk, of course, there's index data and stuff too though
338 2014-03-05 03:53:54 <lnovy> !seen bd__
339 2014-03-05 03:53:55 <gribble> bd__ was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 years, 3 weeks, 1 day, 18 hours, 21 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <bd__> and/or those inputs can be internal wallet keys that are used only for splits
340 2014-03-05 03:54:00 <lnovy> hmm
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348 2014-03-05 04:01:21 <jcorgan> what's the recommend method for doing RPC with bitcoind from Python these days? I've turned up bitcoin-python from wlaanj, python-bitcoinrpc from jgarzik, and of course using raw python-jsonrpc. Is it a matter of taste or is there a clear preference one way or the other?
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356 2014-03-05 04:06:17 <jgarzik> jcorgan, no one holy grail official way. python-bitcoinrpc is generally recommended, but some python3 people complain about it. python-bitcoinlib, the more general and larger lib, includes it also.
357 2014-03-05 04:06:59 <jcorgan> great, thanks
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375 2014-03-05 04:26:51 <Tril> git master doc/build-unix.md wrong? "--with-miniupnpc No UPnP support miniupnp not required"
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377 2014-03-05 04:29:06 <Tril> should probably say --without-miniupnpc
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399 2014-03-05 04:45:55 <sugarpuff> i don't get the disk space problem. someone want to help? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=501039.0
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402 2014-03-05 04:50:36 <maaku> jcorgan: it doesn't really matter so long as you are using decimal values for interpretation of amount values
403 2014-03-05 04:50:57 <maaku> i maintain python-bitcoin which uses the requests package for connections
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504 2014-03-05 07:08:30 <just[dead]> Do most programs that require the blockchain and making tx modify the reference client, or have a program that starts an instance of bitcoind while interacting with its json rpc?
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521 2014-03-05 07:25:22 <wumpus> just[dead]: most just use the reference client
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528 2014-03-05 07:28:56 <just[dead]> wumpus: doesn't really answer my questions...
529 2014-03-05 07:29:14 <just[dead]> *question
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531 2014-03-05 07:33:10 <antephialtic> just[dead]: pretty rare to modify the reference client unless you are at a large scale, and even then that can be dangerous unless you really know what you're doing. I would stick to json-RPC
532 2014-03-05 07:33:45 <just[dead]> antephialtic: So if I make a program that will be run locally by people, it should just make an instance of bitcoind?
533 2014-03-05 07:33:58 <wumpus> to make tx you certainly don't need to modify the reference client
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537 2014-03-05 07:34:32 <wumpus> just submit them with sendrawtransaction
538 2014-03-05 07:34:46 <antephialtic> just[dead]: that is the usual way of doing things. Have your users setup their own instance of bitcoind, and then have your app connect to it to connect with the network
539 2014-03-05 07:34:54 <just[dead]> wumpus: I mean building the program off of the reference client so there doesn't need to be local http communication
540 2014-03-05 07:35:16 <wumpus> just[dead]: you can do that, but why would you?
541 2014-03-05 07:35:29 <antephialtic> alternatively, check out bitcoinJ, it can connect to the network on its own and has some nice classes for constructing transactions
542 2014-03-05 07:35:31 <just[dead]> wumpus: so it is all in one
543 2014-03-05 07:35:42 <wumpus> just[dead]: seperation into processes is a good thing usually
544 2014-03-05 07:35:48 <just[dead]> antephialtic: ehh, I don't think I want to stray from the reference client
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547 2014-03-05 07:36:59 <antephialtic> just[dead]: bitcoinJ is very high quality. Using the reference client is key if you need to fully verify transactions, but if you are just generating them and sending them out to the network, bitcoinJ is a good choice
548 2014-03-05 07:37:12 <just[dead]> wumpus: It can be separated into processes without requiring the users to download two programs
549 2014-03-05 07:37:28 <wumpus> just[dead]: obviously; many installers install multiple programs
550 2014-03-05 07:37:34 <just[dead]> antephialtic: I basically need all bitcoind capabilities
551 2014-03-05 07:37:56 <just[dead]> wumpus: I suppose. I'd rather have a standalone executable though
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553 2014-03-05 07:38:22 <just[dead]> And I'd rather not have the user have to mess with making sure they aren't running two bitcoind instances and all that
554 2014-03-05 07:38:44 <wumpus> just[dead]: yes if you insist on that it leaves only very few options
555 2014-03-05 07:38:49 <just[dead]> But I guess if it just works with the other bitcoind, then there is no risk of the user having two blockchains
556 2014-03-05 07:39:14 <antephialtic> just[dead]: either way the experience will be shitty if you bundle bitcoind, the user will still need to download the whole blockchain, etc.
557 2014-03-05 07:39:14 <just[dead]> wumpus: Do you have examples of desktop applications using bitcoind separately?
558 2014-03-05 07:39:26 <antephialtic> check out chromawallet
559 2014-03-05 07:39:29 <just[dead]> antephialtic: yeah, but that is needed for anonymity
560 2014-03-05 07:39:36 <just[dead]> and non-SPV security
561 2014-03-05 07:39:39 <wumpus> just[dead]: there are also some other libraries and frameworks that can be used for interaction with the bitcoin network, for example picocoin, libbitcoin, and probably many others
562 2014-03-05 07:39:47 <wumpus> just[dead]: armory
563 2014-03-05 07:40:43 <just[dead]> wumpus: I'd rather not stray from the reference client and risk consensus breaking. Along with that, bitcoind is very useful for automating tasks
564 2014-03-05 07:40:46 <wumpus> but bitcoinj is the most mature of the alternative implementations
565 2014-03-05 07:41:00 <wumpus> only drawback, you're stuck with java :)
566 2014-03-05 07:41:08 <just[dead]> wumpus: I don't doubt it, but I think it is still a risk
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568 2014-03-05 07:41:38 <antephialtic> wumpus: bitcoinj has fixed chain-splitting bugs in every release :(
569 2014-03-05 07:41:40 <wumpus> multibit as well as all of the android clients use it, and it has a very good testing framework
570 2014-03-05 07:41:59 <just[dead]> Okay, so ask if the user has the blockchain downloaded, ask if they have bitcoind and then based on that, give them a certain executable?
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572 2014-03-05 07:42:57 <wumpus> antephialtic: yeah you wouldn't want to use it for mining :) it's only used for SPV clients for a good reason
573 2014-03-05 07:43:12 <antephialtic> wumpus: agreed.
574 2014-03-05 07:44:11 <antephialtic> just[dead]: if you don't mind answering, what features are you trying to build in your app that require the full blockchain?
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581 2014-03-05 07:50:50 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: bot bullshit in #bitcoin?
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584 2014-03-05 07:51:22 <justanotheruser> antephialtic: Decentralized marketplace based on bitcoin and bitmessage
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642 2014-03-05 08:29:30 <TD> good morning
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705 2014-03-05 09:14:58 <paveljanik> How do I change a commit message on github?
706 2014-03-05 09:15:31 Emzy has joined
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711 2014-03-05 09:16:54 <maaku> paveljanik: by rewriting history
712 2014-03-05 09:17:01 petcat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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716 2014-03-05 09:19:13 <paveljanik> maaku: and in UI/click level?
717 2014-03-05 09:19:21 coolacid has joined
718 2014-03-05 09:20:34 <maaku> i'm not sure you can
719 2014-03-05 09:20:42 <maaku> on purpose, mind you, because it breaks stuff
720 2014-03-05 09:20:57 <maaku> when you change the commit message, you change the commit hash
721 2014-03-05 09:21:25 <maaku> but maybe there is a UI way to do the same, I don't use the UI much
722 2014-03-05 09:21:45 derbumi has joined
723 2014-03-05 09:22:03 <jcorgan> paveljanik: you can use git gui and check "amend last commit" to change the commit. when you push you'll need to force push
724 2014-03-05 09:22:31 <paveljanik> jcorgan: and github interface?
725 2014-03-05 09:23:10 <paveljanik> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3798#issuecomment-36722048
726 2014-03-05 09:23:14 nshsplit is now known as nsh
727 2014-03-05 09:23:20 <jcorgan> ah, not sure, i use github most for storing a backup of repos but not their interface stuff
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741 2014-03-05 09:33:51 <SomeoneWeird> paveljanik, you can't do it from github interface, on purpose
742 2014-03-05 09:33:56 <SomeoneWeird> it's a destructive change
743 2014-03-05 09:34:05 <SomeoneWeird> also, s/server/daemon/
744 2014-03-05 09:34:37 derbumi has quit (Quit: derbumi)
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747 2014-03-05 09:35:38 <paveljanik> Hmm.
748 2014-03-05 09:35:38 <paveljanik> pavel@opencl:~/bitcoin/src> ./bitcoind --help | head
749 2014-03-05 09:35:38 <paveljanik> Bitcoin Core Daemon version v0.9.0rc2-4-gc975e99-dirty-beta
750 2014-03-05 09:35:38 <paveljanik> Usage:
751 2014-03-05 09:35:38 <paveljanik> bitcoind [options] Start Bitcoin server
752 2014-03-05 09:35:54 zer0def has joined
753 2014-03-05 09:35:56 <paveljanik> I thought that Bitcoin Core Daemon is a high level name
754 2014-03-05 09:36:00 suhailski has joined
755 2014-03-05 09:36:03 <paveljanik> abd we are starting Bitcoin server
756 2014-03-05 09:36:11 <paveljanik> as I wrote in the message.
757 2014-03-05 09:36:18 <sipa> hmm?
758 2014-03-05 09:36:29 SwampTony has joined
759 2014-03-05 09:36:32 <sipa> ah
760 2014-03-05 09:36:39 Eagle[TM] has joined
761 2014-03-05 09:36:51 <paveljanik> this is trivia, I just want to learn how to contribute.
762 2014-03-05 09:37:06 <sipa> the message should probably say "Bitcoin Core Daemon" too
763 2014-03-05 09:37:40 nickler has joined
764 2014-03-05 09:39:38 <paveljanik> ok, so I will change it again.
765 2014-03-05 09:44:05 <paveljanik> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3798/files
766 2014-03-05 09:45:30 vegard has joined
767 2014-03-05 09:45:42 <jouke> Goonie: is there a way to help debug the wallet? Are there log files somewhere maybe? We are testing the latest version with bip71-support, but it keeps failing with "wrong signature"
768 2014-03-05 09:46:11 <jouke> While the reference client accepts the paymentrequest without a problem.
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774 2014-03-05 09:50:29 <paveljanik> sipa: you mean like this? https://github.com/paveljanik/bitcoin/commit/974a26f17cf4425d1b0da75dc9a2844b343373a8
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778 2014-03-05 09:52:08 <Joric> just wondering did anyone try bruteforcing github commits? it uses 7 digits in markup, difficulty appears to be it's less than 1 in btc terms, 28 bits vs 32 bits
779 2014-03-05 09:53:29 <Joric> one could use vanity commit numbers this way, eg. 0000001, 0000002 etc %)
780 2014-03-05 09:53:39 <jouke> Goonie: sorry, i mean bip72
781 2014-03-05 09:53:58 <paveljanik> this is git...
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791 2014-03-05 10:02:58 <wumpus> Joric: if it's like the command-line tool, it uses as many digits as needed to distinguish the commit uniquely (starting at 7)
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839 2014-03-05 10:47:05 <Goonie> jouke: still there?
840 2014-03-05 10:47:47 <jouke> yes
841 2014-03-05 10:47:53 iftu has joined
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843 2014-03-05 10:48:21 <jouke> The request is served via an http connection with an other domainname the request is signed with.
844 2014-03-05 10:48:44 <Goonie> there is the android logfile. If you're running ubuntu, "apt-get install android-tools-adb" and then use "adb logcat"
845 2014-03-05 10:49:07 <Goonie> That should not be an issue.
846 2014-03-05 10:49:42 kurtosis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
847 2014-03-05 10:49:47 <Goonie> the payment protocol even works via non-http, e.g. Intents or NFC.
848 2014-03-05 10:49:59 debiantoruser has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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851 2014-03-05 10:55:06 <jouke> Goonie: trying to get adb to work, will get back to you
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853 2014-03-05 10:55:34 <Goonie> jouke: If you want, you can give me an URL and I'd test myself.
854 2014-03-05 10:56:20 <Goonie> I'm off to lunch for an hour. If you're still having trouble, it'd be best if you mail me the relevant part of log and the exact error message.
855 2014-03-05 10:56:42 olalonde has joined
856 2014-03-05 10:57:05 <jouke> Goonie: k
857 2014-03-05 10:57:12 <jouke> It is not on a public server yet
858 2014-03-05 10:57:29 <TD> ugh
859 2014-03-05 10:57:29 <TD> http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/161
860 2014-03-05 10:57:47 <TD> looks like the era of doing bitcoin wallets on cloud hosted datacenters is over
861 2014-03-05 10:58:02 <TD> at least once someone writes an open source version of that
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870 2014-03-05 11:02:55 <jouke> TD: thanks
871 2014-03-05 11:03:54 <gmaxwell> TD: sidechannel free signing can be done... not fast, but it pretty much never has to be.
872 2014-03-05 11:03:59 <gmaxwell> but weeee.
873 2014-03-05 11:04:04 <TD> there are some mitigating factors
874 2014-03-05 11:04:09 <gmaxwell> pretty impressive numbers there.
875 2014-03-05 11:04:13 <jouke> TD: don't reuse keys
876 2014-03-05 11:04:34 <TD> indeed. avoiding address re-use is one of them. also, it's not entirely clear to me that you can execute clflush across hypervisor boundaries
877 2014-03-05 11:04:48 <TD> i think their attack assumes you can run a process on the same VM next to bitcoind
878 2014-03-05 11:06:39 pierreatwork has joined
879 2014-03-05 11:06:57 Rhessinge has joined
880 2014-03-05 11:07:55 <gmaxwell> might also be possible to employ the blind ecdsa technique proposed recently to help strenghten against this.
881 2014-03-05 11:08:07 TD_ has joined
882 2014-03-05 11:09:31 <stonecoldpat> for a bitcoin address, is a version byte still appended to the front of it? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_version_1_Bitcoin_addresses
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884 2014-03-05 11:09:44 <stonecoldpat> or this out of date nowadays?
885 2014-03-05 11:10:10 <wumpus> stonecoldpat: yes the version byte is still in the same place
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890 2014-03-05 11:11:09 <wumpus> it's out of date though (uses a non-compressed public key instead of a compressed one)
891 2014-03-05 11:11:18 <ruukasu> how can I create a bitcoin address/WIF pair manually, using random bytes from /dev/(u)random?
892 2014-03-05 11:11:53 <stonecoldpat> wumpus: ah ok, so you just change step 1 to a compressed version then do the rest ?
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895 2014-03-05 11:12:41 <stonecoldpat> ruukasu: if you mean after you have generated an ECDSA key pair, i guess you follow these steps https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_version_1_Bitcoin_addresses (just happens im reading it now myself)
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897 2014-03-05 11:13:15 <wumpus> ruukasu: manually? as in, do the computations with hand?
898 2014-03-05 11:13:20 <sipa> stonecoldpat: my guess is that he wants to create keypair from /dev/urandom itself
899 2014-03-05 11:13:40 <ruukasu> wumpus, like with bash and python
900 2014-03-05 11:13:59 <ruukasu> stonecoldpat, I assume we're currently using version 1 addresses?
901 2014-03-05 11:14:08 <wumpus> ruukasu: python-bitcoinlib will help a lot there, it has functions for that IIRC
902 2014-03-05 11:14:12 <sipa> with python there are likely a dozen implementations already
903 2014-03-05 11:14:19 <sipa> i'd probably want to kill myself before doing it in bash
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906 2014-03-05 11:14:41 <ruukasu> wumpus, I mean just experimentally, library would defeat the purpose
907 2014-03-05 11:14:52 <wumpus> doing it in bash sounds like a very bad idea, almost impossible to do anything secure or robust, too much edge cases and gotchas
908 2014-03-05 11:15:44 <ruukasu> don't need it to be secure at all, just want to see the actual process of private key --> address in action
909 2014-03-05 11:15:50 <jouke> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=23081.0
910 2014-03-05 11:15:56 <wumpus> ruukasu: well, start by looking up ECDSA math on the secp256k1 curve then
911 2014-03-05 11:16:10 <wumpus> that you need to go from private key to public key
912 2014-03-05 11:16:48 <samson_> ruukasu: You could simply obtain the 32 byte number from your entropy source and then encode it into Wallet Import Format then import into BTC client
913 2014-03-05 11:16:56 <wumpus> having done that, all that is left is encoding the resulting numbers in the appropriate base58 format
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917 2014-03-05 11:19:19 <samson_> ruukasu: You don't need to know anything about ECDSA to create a key - just do this : https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_import_format
918 2014-03-05 11:19:23 <wumpus> the ECDSA part is interesting, second step is pretty annoying to implement, so I do suggest using a library
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920 2014-03-05 11:20:58 <ruukasu> samson_, will any 32 bytes be a valid ECDSA private key?
921 2014-03-05 11:21:00 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
922 2014-03-05 11:21:31 <wumpus> ruukasu: almost; 0 is not valid, as well as >= a certain number
923 2014-03-05 11:21:49 <vegard> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Private_key#Range_of_valid_private_keys
924 2014-03-05 11:21:52 <samson_> ruukasu: I believe there is a valid range like wumpus says
925 2014-03-05 11:23:41 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
926 2014-03-05 11:23:41 <wumpus> the range is very close to the full 2^256, you grab random bytes then there is a 99.9999% chance or more that the resulting key will be valid, but you do need to check ofcourse
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928 2014-03-05 11:24:13 <sipa> the odds for a random 256-bit number to not be a valid private key are around 1 in 2^127
929 2014-03-05 11:24:15 <samson_> I've been writing some simple tests in C using the Polar SSL library which has it's own bignum implementation and a lot more documentation that OpenSSL - it also compiles quite easily almost anywhere and comes with a comprehensive set of example programs covering everything needed. To create a BTC address from a bignum you need sha256, repimd160 and a bignum library to convert to base58
930 2014-03-05 11:25:44 <samson_> Polar SSL also does ECDSA operations using secp256k1 since the new release came out last month and it's free for open source projects
931 2014-03-05 11:26:00 <olalonde> hey guys, I'm writing a language that compiles to bitcoin script -> https://github.com/olalonde/bitscript it's still a work in progress and it outputs very unoptimized code
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938 2014-03-05 11:36:06 <ruukasu> "Perform SHA-256 hash on result of SHA-256 hash"
939 2014-03-05 11:36:07 <ruukasu> why?
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941 2014-03-05 11:40:43 <stonecoldpat> further obsecures it
942 2014-03-05 11:40:44 <paveljanik> ruukasu: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hashcash#Double_Hash
943 2014-03-05 11:41:03 <stonecoldpat> pon
944 2014-03-05 11:41:05 gues has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
945 2014-03-05 11:41:09 <stonecoldpat> obscure* god cant type today
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951 2014-03-05 11:43:13 <wumpus> it increases the number of hashing steps (makes the function twice as computationally intensive)
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1067 2014-03-05 11:59:49 <Goonie> jouke: Back again. Did manage to access the logfile?
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1089 2014-03-05 12:15:33 <jouke> Goonie: sorry, not yet.
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1137 2014-03-05 12:52:21 <berndj> TD, re your "Why you think the PKI sucks": i think you've at least slightly misrepresented dkg's "let's allow multiple cert chains" argument. #justsaying, for now
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1158 2014-03-05 13:08:43 <TD> berndj: how so
1159 2014-03-05 13:08:51 <disident> hello, whats the way to generate the genesis block ? I can't find the code that generated the bit coin genesis
1160 2014-03-05 13:09:03 <TD> disident: there is none. you have to modify the code to do it
1161 2014-03-05 13:09:15 <disident> TD: OK
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1163 2014-03-05 13:09:33 <disident> tried https://github.com/Gnaf/GenesisBlockZero but can't fns the same merkle hash
1164 2014-03-05 13:09:37 <berndj> TD: i read "politically active CA" as just an example of what a user might prefer, not a necessary attribute of an alternate CA
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1167 2014-03-05 13:10:45 <berndj> TD, and re "SSL doesnÂt allow multiple cert chains to be presented because nobody is asking for this feature." - what point is there in asking when the protocol (SSL) is already graven in stone? also, i'm asking for this feature right now!
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1169 2014-03-05 13:11:25 <berndj> (really i'm asking "please help me do it right" (that doesn't just amount to "don't do it"), and not "please do it for me")
1170 2014-03-05 13:11:50 <TD> SSL gets extended all the time
1171 2014-03-05 13:12:15 <TD> by "nobody is asking for this feature" I mean, if browser makers and major site operators were asking for this feature, it'd get funded and done, as is the case with other SSL features
1172 2014-03-05 13:12:18 <TD> but they aren't
1173 2014-03-05 13:12:45 <TD> my point about "politically active CA" is general - there are few reasons to pick one CA over another beyond price and perhaps the quality of the CA's own website/purchasing experience.
1174 2014-03-05 13:13:13 <TD> it used to be that there were big differences in coverage, but as auto update systems got better a new CA can get huge coverage much faster than before.
1175 2014-03-05 13:13:26 <TD> though if the long tail matters to you then coverage is also a factor
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1179 2014-03-05 13:16:59 <berndj> sigh, i know i'm not going to convince you that it's a valid desire. i don't know what else to say other than writing the code (but it'll probably be wrong without proper engagement)
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1182 2014-03-05 13:17:49 <TD> well, i probably wouldn't be thrilled about implementing that in bitcoinj even if someone else wrote the code, as i'd have to maintain it.
1183 2014-03-05 13:18:19 <TD> so far you haven't given any reasons why my reasoning is wrong though. it's not that i can't be convinced or i'm ideologically opposed to this feature. it's that i can't see any good arguments for it existing
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1207 2014-03-05 13:28:37 <berndj> TD: btw one of my pet peeves is people changing SSH host keys willy nilly :) classic case of how human factors can defeat what might have been a not-totally-bad protocol (but btw^2 lsh(1) makes it a bit harder to just yes-by-default accept a host key, so it's less TOFU than openssh)
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1209 2014-03-05 13:29:07 <TD> well, there are legitimate reasons to change a key
1210 2014-03-05 13:29:24 <TD> the problem is the way to detect "bad" vs "good" reasons for a key change is just pushed onto the user with ssh
1211 2014-03-05 13:29:40 <TD> if your primary adversary is someone who can eavesdrop but not do MITM attacks, then it's not a bad model
1212 2014-03-05 13:30:00 <TD> once you assume active MITM is possible then it rapidly becomes unworkable. TOFU could be useful as a way to opportunistically encrypt the p2p network for instance
1213 2014-03-05 13:30:30 <sipa> berndj: TOFU?
1214 2014-03-05 13:31:04 <TD> trust on first use
1215 2014-03-05 13:31:51 <TD> we're discussing an article i wrote on the pki: https://medium.com/p/b64cf5912aa7
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1220 2014-03-05 13:35:31 <CodeShark> is the trezor available already? I ordered one months ago and no word
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1230 2014-03-05 13:38:21 <xeroc> CodeShark: unfortunatelly not ..
1231 2014-03-05 13:38:26 <xeroc> no idea why..
1232 2014-03-05 13:38:35 <CodeShark> I would love to add support for it in my wallet
1233 2014-03-05 13:38:52 <CodeShark> and would love to collaborate on the multisig stuff in particular
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1235 2014-03-05 13:39:13 <CodeShark> oh well - I guess I'll look for slush on skype :p
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1237 2014-03-05 13:41:04 <TD> i think they're intending to ship early dev units RSN
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1240 2014-03-05 13:42:50 <CodeShark> RSN?
1241 2014-03-05 13:43:13 <sipa> really soon now (tm)
1242 2014-03-05 13:43:19 <CodeShark> lol
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1244 2014-03-05 13:43:29 <CodeShark> haven't seen that one before
1245 2014-03-05 13:45:17 <CodeShark> TD: do you have a link to that usability study review that doesn't require signing in anywhere?
1246 2014-03-05 13:45:34 <TD> https://medium.com/p/d04ea6a2c771 doesn't work for you?
1247 2014-03-05 13:45:45 <CodeShark> ah, that one does
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1249 2014-03-05 13:46:04 <TD> oops. just spotted a link that had an /edit trailer on it. fixed.
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1311 2014-03-05 14:28:34 <stonecoldpat> with the error "Disk space is low: error" - is there a way to keep bitcoind running ?
1312 2014-03-05 14:28:58 <stonecoldpat> im waiting for the admin to give me more gb, and would like to run the daemon to test stuff
1313 2014-03-05 14:28:59 <CodeShark> yeah, get a bigger disk or delete some files :)
1314 2014-03-05 14:29:02 <stonecoldpat> haha
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1321 2014-03-05 14:32:30 <CodeShark> use a different computer until the admin gives you more gb
1322 2014-03-05 14:32:54 <stonecoldpat> yeah, that seems like the only option atm
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1414 2014-03-05 15:36:10 <gpmnlxdw> 2014-03-05 15:33:03 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
1415 2014-03-05 15:36:11 <gpmnlxdw> 2014-03-05 15:33:23 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
1416 2014-03-05 15:36:11 <gpmnlxdw> 2014-03-05 15:33:49 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
1417 2014-03-05 15:36:34 <gpmnlxdw> Hi guys, does it means the amount is to small to accept?
1418 2014-03-05 15:36:43 <xeroc> jup
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1427 2014-03-05 15:41:51 <gpmnlxdw> input is : 0.00015 + 0.0002 + 0.0001; output is 0.0004 + 0.00005; it is 0.00005 to small to accept, is it?
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1429 2014-03-05 15:42:38 <gpmnlxdw> how could I get to know the minimum amount?
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1434 2014-03-05 15:48:07 <Apocalyptic> gpmnlxdw, check the source
1435 2014-03-05 15:48:26 <Apocalyptic> it's something like 5** satoshis if I remember correctly
1436 2014-03-05 15:48:55 <Apocalyptic> "it is 0.00005 to small to accept, is it?" definitely
1437 2014-03-05 15:48:59 kurtosis has joined
1438 2014-03-05 15:49:33 <gpmnlxdw> I got it! thank you Apoca!!!!
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1503 2014-03-05 16:30:42 <k3d3> "There is no from address" very nice
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1512 2014-03-05 16:35:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|re: ~16 hours ago...
1513 2014-03-05 16:35:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's really annoying that Ubuntu keeps their repos outdated
1514 2014-03-05 16:35:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|They've removed the package from trusty and blacklisted it from the Debian autosync
1515 2014-03-05 16:36:20 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1516 2014-03-05 16:36:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But they apparently are unable to remove the package from precise..saucy
1517 2014-03-05 16:36:37 debiantoruser has joined
1518 2014-03-05 16:38:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anyone know how to package for Ubuntu? I've been told that they might consider accepting an "update" to the packages that effectively removes them (removes the binaries, replaces with a message to that effect)
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1566 2014-03-05 17:00:49 <CoincleJay_> Looking for a HTML/CSS/JS wizard who's looking to hop on-board the project https://coincle.com
1567 2014-03-05 17:01:14 <sipa> not here please
1568 2014-03-05 17:01:36 <CoincleJay_> isnt it counted as bitcoin dev? hehe
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1570 2014-03-05 17:01:56 <Apocalyptic> this is for dev related to the protocol and clients
1571 2014-03-05 17:02:02 <CoincleJay_> Okay cool.
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1598 2014-03-05 17:17:00 <Mqrius> http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/03/critical-crypto-bug-leaves-linux-hundreds-of-apps-open-to-eavesdropping/
1599 2014-03-05 17:17:20 <Mqrius> Is it safe to boot my ubuntu and start updating in the gui?
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1602 2014-03-05 17:18:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Mqrius: Wrong channel, but Ubuntu packages are GPG-signed
1603 2014-03-05 17:18:39 <Mqrius> michagogo|cloud: people here will understand my extreme paranoia ;)
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1607 2014-03-05 17:20:16 <Mqrius> michagogo|cloud: Just to be sure: the GPG is automatically checked, right? I don't need to do any other actions than normally, or manually check anything?
1608 2014-03-05 17:20:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Mqrius: #ubuntu
1609 2014-03-05 17:21:05 <Mqrius> Sigh, whatever, be like that.
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1613 2014-03-05 17:23:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Mqrius: I'm sorry, it's just that what you're asking is completely unrelated to this channel
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1615 2014-03-05 17:23:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, while I'm pretty sure the answer to your question is yes, I don't use Ubuntu and could be wrong
1616 2014-03-05 17:23:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The people there can give you a better answer.
1617 2014-03-05 17:24:12 <Mqrius> Otoh I'm putting a psa for a major risk here, which is going to be relevant to many bitcoiners. But yes, your second point is valid.
1618 2014-03-05 17:25:07 debiantoruser has joined
1619 2014-03-05 17:25:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Mqrius: The link, sure
1620 2014-03-05 17:25:27 tombtc has joined
1621 2014-03-05 17:25:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It was the second message that I was responding to :-)
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1623 2014-03-05 17:26:14 <Mqrius> The safe practices of updating are going to be relevant as well.
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1626 2014-03-05 17:26:33 <Mqrius> And I assume people here will have already looked into it, and if not, will want to know.
1627 2014-03-05 17:27:18 <Mqrius> (there's less traffic here, too. #ubuntu is ignoring me.)
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1629 2014-03-05 17:29:37 <Joker_Da_Man> When someone sells a piece of equipment at a dealership they want to include my app, any way to provide them codes (app uses 1year IAP subscriptions)?
1630 2014-03-05 17:30:23 <sipa> Joker_Da_Man: i don't see how that is on topic here
1631 2014-03-05 17:30:28 <Joker_Da_Man> hmm this is bitcoin-dev, not android-dev
1632 2014-03-05 17:30:33 <Joker_Da_Man> got to get my eyes checked
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1646 2014-03-05 17:43:12 <berndj> gnupg uses libgcrypt, not gnutls
1647 2014-03-05 17:43:15 <iaserrat> Hi guys, the private key is the "HASH160"?
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1655 2014-03-05 17:45:18 <Dizzle> iaserrat: this should give a pretty good overview: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_version_1_Bitcoin_addresses
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1659 2014-03-05 17:46:38 <iaserrat> Thanks!
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1676 2014-03-05 17:56:14 <davout> how many confirmations do you see for 9b0c8d25d31626cabdd4e5dd6587fb592d67d0d5fd5a85974a9096ef0a99e717 ?
1677 2014-03-05 17:56:26 <davout> i see over 700, blockchain.info reports none
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1679 2014-03-05 17:58:06 <Apocalyptic> davout, "confirmations" : 774,
1680 2014-03-05 17:58:15 <Apocalyptic> why does it bother you what blockchain.info reports ?
1681 2014-03-05 17:58:38 <davout> Apocalyptic: thanks, i'll report it to blockchain.info and fix my stuff
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1683 2014-03-05 17:59:04 <davout> because i use it for some things with bitcoin-central
1684 2014-03-05 17:59:28 <davout> i track deposits and confirmations because it's practical atm,
1685 2014-03-05 17:59:42 <davout> but also forces me to cross-check it against bitcoind
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1687 2014-03-05 18:00:05 <davout> that's the whole audits, accounting, etc thing
1688 2014-03-05 18:00:27 <Apocalyptic> hum
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1693 2014-03-05 18:02:24 <davout> yup, when various source disagree it's investigation-time :D
1694 2014-03-05 18:02:32 <davout> *sources
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1696 2014-03-05 18:03:15 <Apocalyptic> I see, I feared you relied by default on bc.i to track deposits
1697 2014-03-05 18:03:52 <davout> no way
1698 2014-03-05 18:04:09 <Apocalyptic> would surprise me coming from you heh
1699 2014-03-05 18:04:30 <davout> :3
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1705 2014-03-05 18:07:41 <Bisbee> I see king of gox has initiated the kobayashi maru scenario
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1711 2014-03-05 18:09:29 <midnightmagic> davout: b.i is not authoritative, or even accurate in a lot, lot of things. trust the client, ignore b.i
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1714 2014-03-05 18:10:43 <davout> midnightmagic: ofc it's not :-)
1715 2014-03-05 18:11:01 <davout> midnightmagic: i use bi, but i trust bitcoind, that's how i currently do it
1716 2014-03-05 18:11:58 <midnightmagic> 09:55 < davout> i see over 700, blockchain.info reports none <-- sorry, I just assumed. b.i has done some really nasty things that unfortunately most people just don't know about.
1717 2014-03-05 18:12:14 <davout> midnightmagic: tell me moar
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1719 2014-03-05 18:12:24 <midnightmagic> davout: #bitcoin ?
1720 2014-03-05 18:12:36 <davout> yea, sorry :-)
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1766 2014-03-05 18:57:37 <sugarpuff> Seems like my ârolling rootâ idea wasn't complete crack-pottery? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=501039.0
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1772 2014-03-05 19:02:10 <sugarpuff> (and apparently was previously called the "ledger-solution")
1773 2014-03-05 19:03:08 <sipa> that's nonsense
1774 2014-03-05 19:03:32 <sugarpuff> sipa: explain in a forum post why? (or here if you really want)
1775 2014-03-05 19:03:38 <sipa> we already have a total result of all old transactions being computed for _every_ block
1776 2014-03-05 19:03:52 <sipa> copying old transactions to the front doesn't gain you anything
1777 2014-03-05 19:04:03 <sipa> and dropping old blocks is already perfectly possible
1778 2014-03-05 19:04:29 <sugarpuff> sipa: so⦠does bitcoind drop old blocks now?
1779 2014-03-05 19:04:29 <sipa> except for the part that new full nodes that start up need the complete history in order to validate the current state in a zero trust way
1780 2014-03-05 19:04:37 <sipa> no, but it trivially could
1781 2014-03-05 19:04:51 <sugarpuff> right, so this proposal would make it so that they didn't have to get the entire history
1782 2014-03-05 19:04:59 <sugarpuff> that seems like a large benefit
1783 2014-03-05 19:05:08 <sipa> you completely misunderstand the purpose
1784 2014-03-05 19:05:32 <sipa> the only reason old blocks are there is so you can validate the current state by replaying its history
1785 2014-03-05 19:05:46 <sipa> if you want to give up that zero-trust, there are much easier ways
1786 2014-03-05 19:05:55 <sipa> just copy the database from another node you trust
1787 2014-03-05 19:06:02 <sugarpuff> sipa: you wouldn't be giving it up, see this post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=501039.msg5519054#msg5519054
1788 2014-03-05 19:06:07 <sipa> it's like 400 MB
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1790 2014-03-05 19:06:26 <sipa> and please don't mention checkpoints
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1792 2014-03-05 19:06:34 <sipa> we want to get ridnof those sooner than later
1793 2014-03-05 19:06:44 <vegard> why register to talk -_-
1794 2014-03-05 19:07:00 <sugarpuff> sipa: yeah, notice how i said they're controversial and then proceeded to provide a suggestion that doesn't use them
1795 2014-03-05 19:07:07 <sipa> yes
1796 2014-03-05 19:07:26 <sugarpuff> sipa: also, re you 400mb, see the quote at the very top: "...to handle the number of transactions that visa handles in 3 months the bitcoin system will require 14 Terabytes of storage space."
1797 2014-03-05 19:07:29 _ImI_ has joined
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1799 2014-03-05 19:07:47 <sipa> right now, bitcoin blocks are limited to 1mb
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1801 2014-03-05 19:08:25 <sipa> there is no way that we can currently handle visa's traffic
1802 2014-03-05 19:08:32 <sipa> with the currentninfrastructure
1803 2014-03-05 19:08:47 <sugarpuff> right⦠hence the post
1804 2014-03-05 19:08:50 <sipa> sugarpuff: in any case, thay's beside the point
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1806 2014-03-05 19:08:52 <gmaxwell> Nor is it clear that its desirable, once the tradeoffs are considered.
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1809 2014-03-05 19:09:06 <sipa> copying the chainstate is much much more efficient that copying everything in the blockchain
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1811 2014-03-05 19:09:16 <sipa> and for both you're giving up zerontrust
1812 2014-03-05 19:09:32 <sipa> zero-trust
1813 2014-03-05 19:09:40 <sugarpuff> sipa: you haven't proven/explained that, you've just been stating it as though it's true, and i gave you a response
1814 2014-03-05 19:09:58 <sipa> which of mybstatements do you disagree with?
1815 2014-03-05 19:10:02 <sipa> *statements
1816 2014-03-05 19:10:07 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: Nothing you appear to be posting is new. We transmit the old information because it's important for the security model, as it prevent miners (or attackers) from stealing coins or inflating the currency in the past history, and it acts as an incentive check and balance to keep people honest.
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1818 2014-03-05 19:11:01 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: In Bitcoin we do not and cannot trust that other participants behave honestly not even in some statistical way, since people could easily become all our peers... instead we do enough checking to make sybil attacks like that not-very-useful.
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1820 2014-03-05 19:11:07 <sugarpuff> sipa: "which of my statements do you disagree with?" that you say it gives up zero trust. I showed you my reply to why i think it doesn't: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=501039.msg5519054#msg5519054
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1824 2014-03-05 19:11:35 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: your post does not do that.
1825 2014-03-05 19:11:50 <sipa> it's theoretically impossible to have zero trust in history, if you do not grt to see history
1826 2014-03-05 19:12:22 <sugarpuff> sipa: you do get to see the entire history as the network has agreed to it
1827 2014-03-05 19:12:36 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: First you do not cover the case where its just full of wrong data (not old vs new). Secondly you immediately invoke trusting "asking multiple nodes and picking the majority answer".
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1829 2014-03-05 19:12:36 <sugarpuff> i gave the "too old root" and "too new root" scenarios
1830 2014-03-05 19:12:39 <sipa> sugarpuff: that means trudting the network
1831 2014-03-05 19:12:45 <sipa> which we currently do not do
1832 2014-03-05 19:12:56 <sipa> it is not zero trust
1833 2014-03-05 19:13:00 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: it's quite easy for an attacker to be _all_ of your peers, much less a majority.
1834 2014-03-05 19:13:17 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: i believe that if the attacker is all of your peers, then the current bitcoin fails too
1835 2014-03-05 19:13:22 <sugarpuff> (or correct me if i'm wrong on that)
1836 2014-03-05 19:13:36 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: In Bitcoin being a majority of someone's peers does nothing. And being all is mostly a denial of service attack that doesn't really achieve much.
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1839 2014-03-05 19:13:57 <sipa> sugarpuff: SPV nodes have that security model
1840 2014-03-05 19:13:59 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: you said "all"
1841 2014-03-05 19:14:10 <sipa> they do trust the network and the majority vote of miners
1842 2014-03-05 19:14:19 <sipa> full nodes absolutely do not trust their peers
1843 2014-03-05 19:14:40 <sipa> and SPV's nodes security relies on their being full nodes that do that checking for them
1844 2014-03-05 19:14:51 <sugarpuff> sipa: case (1) "root that is too old": "If it got unlucky and the majority lied, it will eventually catch up and discard the outdated root on its own anyway because of the rolling window that's hard coded"
1845 2014-03-05 19:14:55 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: If you are going to try to play a semantics game with me I won't continue the discussion. I did say precisely what I meant.
1846 2014-03-05 19:15:20 <sugarpuff> sipa: case (2) "root is too young": "If it also gets unlucky with its chosen majority, it should be able to figure this out because it's assumed that not all nodes are evil, and it will eventually stumble across a trustworthy one, which would make it have a longer blockchain than the ones that the lying nodes gave it, and it would automatically adopt that one."
1847 2014-03-05 19:15:39 <sipa> you are making assumptions we do not want to make
1848 2014-03-05 19:15:50 <sipa> we never assume old data is valid
1849 2014-03-05 19:16:00 <sipa> even if a majority seems to agree with it
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1851 2014-03-05 19:16:23 <sugarpuff> this post was written in response to a friend asking me about the 14TB every 3 months problem.
1852 2014-03-05 19:16:28 <gmaxwell> This is necessary because its what creates an incentive for that collection to be honest to begin with.
1853 2014-03-05 19:16:57 <sugarpuff> if the 14TB/3months is not a problem, then the suggestion in this post can be ignored
1854 2014-03-05 19:17:15 <sugarpuff> i will just say that to my friend: "the bitcoin devs said it's not a problem, cause it's not a problem"
1855 2014-03-05 19:17:18 <sipa> sugarpuff: and if you are willing to give up zero trust in history (which may or may not be a reasonable choice), there are much more efficient ways to deal with it than copying old transactions
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1858 2014-03-05 19:17:44 <sipa> i consider 14TB/3months *currently* impossible
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1860 2014-03-05 19:18:17 <chichov> is removing OP_CODESEPERATOR occurences from the referenced transaction outputs scriptPubKey only necessary if I intend to build a wallet and want to ensure backwards compatibility?
1861 2014-03-05 19:18:22 <sugarpuff> sipa: right, because B$ is not VISA ATM. if you have no plans on it becoming a VISA replacement, then there's no problem
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1863 2014-03-05 19:18:51 <chichov> (in SIGHASH procedures)
1864 2014-03-05 19:19:22 <sipa> sugarpuff: i believe becoming a visa replacement is impossible; if we could, i'd certainly like bitcoin to scale to that point, but not if it requires giving up its core principles (zero trust assumptions, for one)
1865 2014-03-05 19:19:28 <chichov> because I don't see anywhere that OP_CODESEPARATORs are still being used
1866 2014-03-05 19:19:37 <sipa> chichov: they were never ever used
1867 2014-03-05 19:20:03 <chichov> sipa: why does OP_CHECKSIG then describe that they have to be removed?
1868 2014-03-05 19:20:15 <sipa> chichov: parse error
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1871 2014-03-05 19:20:28 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: You need to be mindful talking about Bitcoin the currency vs Bitcoin's essential payment network. Just like you don't have to trade dollars by always giving people sacks of paper there is no need to always directly use the bitcoin payment network to trade in bitcoin.
1872 2014-03-05 19:20:42 <sipa> chichov: ah, because the validation rules say so
1873 2014-03-05 19:21:13 <sipa> chichov: someone could technically create a transaction with a codesep in it and mine it
1874 2014-03-05 19:21:28 <sipa> chichov: and validation code needs to deal with it correctly
1875 2014-03-05 19:21:40 <chichov> sipa: so it's only a sanity check for irregular but valid script templates?
1876 2014-03-05 19:21:49 <sipa> chichov: no?
1877 2014-03-05 19:22:03 <sipa> chichov: the validity rules have nithing to do with script templates
1878 2014-03-05 19:22:16 <chichov> sipa: typically there are no OP_CODESEPERATORs in script templates, are there?
1879 2014-03-05 19:22:33 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: i did not know that. i thought that to trade bitcoin you necessarily must participate in the network, unless you give someone a copy of your private keys that is...
1880 2014-03-05 19:22:33 <sipa> not typically, just not
1881 2014-03-05 19:22:48 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: is that what you mean? (hand over someone your private keys?)
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1883 2014-03-05 19:23:00 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: not at all.
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1885 2014-03-05 19:23:06 <sipa> sugarpuff: the majority of trades on mtgox (hate to give that example...),did nit hit the blockchain
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1887 2014-03-05 19:23:22 <sugarpuff> oh...
1888 2014-03-05 19:23:26 <chichov> let me think about this for one second.
1889 2014-03-05 19:23:26 <sugarpuff> i see
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1892 2014-03-05 19:23:46 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: for example, with things like micropayments channels you can make a bunch of incremental payments but there is only one transaction summarizing them that hits the network.
1893 2014-03-05 19:23:49 <sugarpuff> sipa: well, heh, may that be a lesson as to why you might want to stick with the network ;)
1894 2014-03-05 19:23:54 <chichov> you said someone can create a transaction with OP_CODESEP in it
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1896 2014-03-05 19:24:42 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: There are mechnisms which are less risky centeralized bank model (though that one sure is easy to deploy)
1897 2014-03-05 19:24:52 <chichov> which would mean that I can create eg a public key script with a OP_CODESEP in it?
1898 2014-03-05 19:25:17 <chichov> and it'd be valid?
1899 2014-03-05 19:25:40 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: ok, well, this problem is way off in the future if it happens, i'm sure ya'll will figure it out, i just wanted to know whether this was a possible solution in order to be able to answer my friend's concern
1900 2014-03-05 19:26:01 <sugarpuff> sipa says it's not zero trust, but i'm not convinced
1901 2014-03-05 19:26:04 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: the tradeoff there is that if you scale bitcoin itself too large... where running a node requires a datacenter and tends of megabits a second of bandwidth which you are uncompensated for... then bitcoin itself becomes the unaudited, untrustworthy bank that steals everyone's fundsâ and that can't be allowed to happen. If you must choose a compromise to scale it probably should be on the edge instead of in the middle.
1902 2014-03-05 19:26:12 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: You should be convinced.
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1904 2014-03-05 19:26:46 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: besides it doesn't solve the interesting challenges... syncing up the old state is a one time step and it doesn't need to be kept around.
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1906 2014-03-05 19:27:44 <gmaxwell> In order for the network to be convergent nodes need to have a multiple of the peak instantaneous bandwidth. So if they can keep up they are guarenteed to be able to sync the history eventually.
1907 2014-03-05 19:27:58 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: right. which is almost similar to this rolling root proposal⦠i guess⦠"syncing up the old state" will mean downloading it from someone (as opposed to naturally getting it from the network)
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1909 2014-03-05 19:28:33 <sugarpuff> my understanding is that you download it, verify, then prune it
1910 2014-03-05 19:28:36 <sipa> "naturally getting it from the network" is still just downloading it from someone
1911 2014-03-05 19:28:42 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: It's dissimilar in that you verify all the network rules for yourself, so its impossible for anyone to usefully lie to you.
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1915 2014-03-05 19:29:32 <gmaxwell> syncing up the old state just means downloading it and verifying it.
1916 2014-03-05 19:29:41 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell / sipa: but in this hypothetical VISA future, it could mean a onetime 14TB+ download?
1917 2014-03-05 19:30:06 <sugarpuff> (for a new full node?)
1918 2014-03-05 19:30:15 <sipa> sugarpuff: if you want start up a new full node in a zero trust way, there is no way around downloading all history
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1920 2014-03-05 19:30:35 <chichov> sipa: do you have any reference where I can read up on OP_CODESEPs?
1921 2014-03-05 19:30:35 <sugarpuff> sipa: except the aforementioned proposal...
1922 2014-03-05 19:30:37 <sipa> if you assume trust in the state at a particular point in history, and are able to get it, you only need to see history from there
1923 2014-03-05 19:30:40 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: sure? (Though I don't think that visa future is realistic or necessaryâ since there are better ways to handle high volume). But so? In that same future the same node needs a gigabit of connectivity to keep up with the network.
1924 2014-03-05 19:31:02 <sipa> sugarpuff: please understand that "taking what the majority of the network agrees on" is NOT zero trust
1925 2014-03-05 19:31:11 <sugarpuff> sipa: like, you just said what i'm said, sounds like we're in agreement: "if you assume trust in the state at a particular point in history, and are able to get it, you only need to see history from there"
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1927 2014-03-05 19:31:41 <gmaxwell> sugarpuff: that isn't zero trustâ unless you computed that state yourself from the past historyâ because you trust that state.
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1930 2014-03-05 19:32:02 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell / sipa: k, i concede the point, i see what you mean
1931 2014-03-05 19:32:20 <sipa> sugarpuff: now, about dealing with ways to improve performance, IF you are giving up zero trust
1932 2014-03-05 19:32:24 <sipa> sugarpuff: see it this ways
1933 2014-03-05 19:32:35 <sipa> sugarpuff: internally, every full node maintains a database of all unspent transaction outputs
1934 2014-03-05 19:33:02 <sipa> sugarpuff: this is a high-efficiency, compact database with just outputs (not signatures for example) and not those that have already been spent
1935 2014-03-05 19:33:20 <sipa> sugarpuff: every block you can see as sort of an authenticated patch against that database
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1937 2014-03-05 19:33:34 <sipa> (add outputs of trenasactions in the block, remove the outputs spent by transactions in it)
1938 2014-03-05 19:33:57 <sipa> if we can somehow agree on a snapshot of that database at some point in time, and you trust it, we can just copy the database
1939 2014-03-05 19:34:02 <sipa> instead of copying all blocks before it
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1941 2014-03-05 19:34:50 <sugarpuff> sipa: right, and that sounds like going into checkpoint territory. the rolling-root proposal is similar but not entirely the same
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1943 2014-03-05 19:35:16 <sugarpuff> but old blocks should have almost unanimous agreement in the network
1944 2014-03-05 19:35:25 <sipa> sugarpuff: not done yet :)
1945 2014-03-05 19:35:55 <sipa> sugarpuff: there are proposals to make such a snapshot of that database essentially for every block, and put a hash of that snapshot in the block itself
1946 2014-03-05 19:36:03 <sipa> sugarpuff: and have this validated by miners too
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1948 2014-03-05 19:36:32 <sugarpuff> sipa: ah, yeah, that's a good idea. is that what UXTO is about?
1949 2014-03-05 19:36:35 spinza has joined
1950 2014-03-05 19:36:44 <sipa> the UTXO set is just what we call that database
1951 2014-03-05 19:36:59 <sugarpuff> ah, lol, i just got the acronym
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1953 2014-03-05 19:36:59 <sipa> (Unspent TransaXtion Outputs)
1954 2014-03-05 19:37:03 <sugarpuff> :)
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1956 2014-03-05 19:37:17 <sipa> now, this has a very significant impact on the network
1957 2014-03-05 19:37:30 <sipa> as validating and maintaining these database snapshots is not cheap
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1959 2014-03-05 19:38:05 <sipa> (there are ways to make it pretty efficient, by using a merkle tree for that entire database, but the impact is not neglectable)
1960 2014-03-05 19:38:37 <sipa> now, you can have a node that just asks a peer, "give me your current UTXO set", and it can validate that at least the majority of hashing power agrees with it
1961 2014-03-05 19:38:51 <sipa> without needing to downloading any old blocks
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1963 2014-03-05 19:39:25 <sugarpuff> sipa: just by asking enough nodes for it and assuming the majority is right?
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1965 2014-03-05 19:39:44 <sipa> sugarpuff: no no, not the majority of your peers
1966 2014-03-05 19:39:55 <sipa> sugarpuff: you can actually just validate the entire old blockchain, but only the headers
1967 2014-03-05 19:40:02 <sipa> sugarpuff: which is very cheap (80 bytes per block)
1968 2014-03-05 19:40:06 <sipa> sugarpuff: like SPV nodes do now
1969 2014-03-05 19:40:20 <sipa> sugarpuff: but the headers would be committing to the hash of these UTXO set snapshots
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1971 2014-03-05 19:40:30 <sipa> so you can verify that the chain agrees with the snapshot
1972 2014-03-05 19:40:39 <sipa> which implies the majority of miners do
1973 2014-03-05 19:41:20 <sugarpuff> sipa: i'd like to do more reading on this and not use up more of your time, do you have some recommended links about this topic? Think SPV + UTXO thread is a good start?
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1976 2014-03-05 19:41:43 <sipa> several mailing list posts, forum posts, ...
1977 2014-03-05 19:41:49 <sugarpuff> too broad...
1978 2014-03-05 19:41:54 <sugarpuff> i could spend a year doing that
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1980 2014-03-05 19:42:06 <sugarpuff> i love the bitcoin paper, i've read it like 3.5 times now
1981 2014-03-05 19:42:07 <sipa> there's no nice centralized knowledge repository of all these experimental ideas :)
1982 2014-03-05 19:42:17 <sugarpuff> ah that's unfortunate
1983 2014-03-05 19:42:47 Ademan has joined
1984 2014-03-05 19:43:04 <sugarpuff> sipa: ok, well thanks, i think what you said here is enough to get me started. i'll go do some more research on it. right now there are too many gaps in my knowledge to give you useful replies on this
1985 2014-03-05 19:43:11 <sipa> :)
1986 2014-03-05 19:43:12 <sipa> yw
1987 2014-03-05 19:44:14 <Ademan> sugarpuff: what are you doing?
1988 2014-03-05 19:44:26 <sugarpuff> Ademan: ⦠right now or in general?
1989 2014-03-05 19:44:48 <Ademan> regarding "enough to get me started"
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1991 2014-03-05 19:45:28 <sugarpuff> Ademan: i'll be brushing up on SPV, and feeding my brain enough knowledge to the point where i feel confident in understanding what sipa said in the past few replies of his. also reading the UTXO thread
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1994 2014-03-05 19:47:51 <Ademan> sugarpuff: ah
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2012 2014-03-05 20:04:31 <vegard> sugarpuff: what's your goal?
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2027 2014-03-05 20:14:30 <sugarpuff> vegard: my goal is to just understand the problem and proposed solutions, and see how my solution (the "rolling root") plays into all of that (whether it's necessary, or not), if bitcoin ever handles VISA-like transaction volume
2028 2014-03-05 20:14:45 <sugarpuff> vegard: ultimately, my goal is to answer a concerned friend's email :P
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2064 2014-03-05 20:49:00 <sugarpuff> sipa: is it OK with you if I post this part of our convo to the forums? i think others might find it helpful: http://pastebin.com/tvsknY5j
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2070 2014-03-05 20:49:56 <sugarpuff> sipa: i'll wait about 7 min for a reply from you, if i don't get one i'll post it. if you want me to remove it then ping me here or on #dnschain (if i'm gone) and i'll edit the post.
2071 2014-03-05 20:50:16 <sipa> sure
2072 2014-03-05 20:50:23 <sugarpuff> sipa: thx :)
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2085 2014-03-05 21:06:23 <hno> There is quite many blocks submitted with a timestamp that is 10 minutes in future at the moment. What impact do this have on the bitcoin network if any?
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2088 2014-03-05 21:07:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hno: none, pretty much
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2090 2014-03-05 21:07:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Block timestamps can be up to 2 hours in the future
2091 2014-03-05 21:07:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And they just need to be after the median of the last 11 blocks
2092 2014-03-05 21:07:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|A ~3-hour window overall, IIRC
2093 2014-03-05 21:07:58 <hno> ok, so next block can have a timestamp that is before the previous block?
2094 2014-03-05 21:08:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes
2095 2014-03-05 21:08:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|As long as it's not before the median timestamp of the past 11 blocks
2096 2014-03-05 21:08:41 <hno> which is unlikely with only 10 minutes future diff.
2097 2014-03-05 21:08:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, just thought of something
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2100 2014-03-05 21:09:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, nvm
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2107 2014-03-05 21:15:11 <lechuga_> do you guys know why bip70 has both the buyer and merchant broadcasting the txns
2108 2014-03-05 21:15:20 <lechuga_> is there any good reason why it isnt just the merchant
2109 2014-03-05 21:16:17 <maaku> is there any good reason why it's specified in the BIP at all?
2110 2014-03-05 21:16:59 <lechuga_> well yeah, you dont want to broadcast the txns prior to the merchant accepting them, whoever you happen to be
2111 2014-03-05 21:17:02 <maaku> btw look on the mailing list, i believe this was discussed a few weeks back
2112 2014-03-05 21:17:32 <sipa> i've brought this up several times, but i'm tired of arguing :)
2113 2014-03-05 21:17:39 <sipa> imho, only the merchant should broadcast
2114 2014-03-05 21:17:45 <lechuga_> i agree with sipa
2115 2014-03-05 21:17:52 <lechuga_> but ill dig up the history to understand both sides
2116 2014-03-05 21:17:54 <maaku> there's assumptions wrapped up in whether the merchant or the user should be broadcasting
2117 2014-03-05 21:18:00 <lechuga_> sipa can u distill the opposing view down to a brief comment?
2118 2014-03-05 21:18:09 <maaku> but yes, you certainly shouldn't be broadcasting before an ACK receipt is received
2119 2014-03-05 21:18:18 <gmaxwell> That was my opinion too. Some things don't work if the user broadcasts. :( but it seems like other people are really insistant on the other way.
2120 2014-03-05 21:18:29 <sipa> lechuga_: i may be biased, but i can't remember any good argument against it
2121 2014-03-05 21:18:37 <lechuga_> heh fair enohg, thx :)
2122 2014-03-05 21:18:39 <lechuga_> enough*
2123 2014-03-05 21:19:08 <sipa> the only argument i've hard is "this would be harder to implement in some client"
2124 2014-03-05 21:19:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: the argument against requiring the merchant to do it was that it requires a two way communication channel, and the near field stuff does a burst and the whole communication must be over and done with instantly unless you require two taps.
2125 2014-03-05 21:19:38 <sipa> gmaxwell: right, that's a different use case than the one i'm considering
2126 2014-03-05 21:19:59 <gmaxwell> That was the only argument I'd heared wrt allowing the payer to broadcast that I understood.
2127 2014-03-05 21:20:11 <sugarpuff> sipa / gmaxwell: lol, so the guy to who asked me the question that made me post that thread and do all this research actually made the same suggestion in the email in which he asked the question, i just hadn't gotten to reading that paragraph yet (i'd stopped after he included a link to the article describing the problem)
2128 2014-03-05 21:20:15 <lechuga_> interesting
2129 2014-03-05 21:20:17 <maaku> like i said, there's a assumptions on both sides about use cases
2130 2014-03-05 21:20:17 <lechuga_> thx guys
2131 2014-03-05 21:20:23 <sugarpuff> sipa / gmaxwell: quote from his email: "and iâm uncertain about whether the architecture requires it to be a monotonically growing transaction log,
2132 2014-03-05 21:20:23 <sugarpuff> or if the design allows for some form of archiving and starting a new blockchain, carrying balances forward,
2133 2014-03-05 21:20:23 <sugarpuff> or some such."
2134 2014-03-05 21:20:27 <maaku> it'd be better if it were not standardized
2135 2014-03-05 21:20:29 <gmaxwell> (and even then I'm super skeptical, if the payer is on the internet (how can he broadcast otherwise?) then he could reach the merchant via some other channel)
2136 2014-03-05 21:20:38 <sipa> but in that case either you will have no payment_uri, or a payment_uri that does not use nfc
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2141 2014-03-05 21:21:25 <gmaxwell> okay, full agreement. then your only talking about the case where there is an (optional!) payment_uri.
2142 2014-03-05 21:21:31 <sipa> yes
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2145 2014-03-05 21:23:12 <sipa> imho, if a payment_uri is specified, then 1) the client should do every effort to deliver the payment there (retries if necessary), 2) should avoid (but cannot be prevented from) broadcasting before an ack is received 3) if an ACK is received, the client is no longer responsible for getting the transaction broadcasted
2146 2014-03-05 21:23:31 <sipa> if no payment_uri is specified, the client just broadcasts
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2149 2014-03-05 21:24:00 <lechuga_> that seems as though it would adequately address both cases
2150 2014-03-05 21:24:17 <gmaxwell> I think it should specify that if the client broadcast without delivering that all bets are off. The merchant isn't required to make good on the sale.
2151 2014-03-05 21:24:32 <maaku> lechuga_: yes, and i believe this was suggested before... to no avail
2152 2014-03-05 21:24:44 c0rw1n has joined
2153 2014-03-05 21:24:49 <sipa> maybe i should just make a pullreq
2154 2014-03-05 21:24:54 <lechuga_> :)
2155 2014-03-05 21:25:02 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
2156 2014-03-05 21:25:14 <lechuga_> sorry i didnt mean to make more work for u
2157 2014-03-05 21:25:20 Cheena has quit (Quit: Cheena)
2158 2014-03-05 21:25:58 taha has joined
2159 2014-03-05 21:26:02 <lechuga_> although just fixing it might end people like me askign the same question ad nauseam
2160 2014-03-05 21:26:39 <gmaxwell> sorry, preaching to the chior here.
2161 2014-03-05 21:26:42 <sipa> gmaxwell: the argument against that, is support for multiple payments in one transaction
2162 2014-03-05 21:26:48 <gmaxwell> choir*
2163 2014-03-05 21:27:07 <sipa> gmaxwell: which would require sending to two merchants, one of which may broadcast without the other accepting
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2165 2014-03-05 21:27:17 Cheena has joined
2166 2014-03-05 21:27:31 <sipa> the right solution for that would be to first present the unsigned transaction to them, sign off on that, and then deliver the signed one
2167 2014-03-05 21:27:46 <gmaxwell> sipa: then that should be supported explicitly. The problem is, of course, if you get clients that don't bother sending the response just because they were too lazy to implement that part, then you cannot build any service that depends on always getting a return address (or other info)
2168 2014-03-05 21:28:03 nsh_ has joined
2169 2014-03-05 21:28:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: i've brought up that like 3 times now
2170 2014-03-05 21:28:36 <sipa> the way the bip is formulated now, it seems that the payment_uri is just an optional service to the receiver "where he may try to obtain an ack"
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2174 2014-03-05 21:28:55 nsh_ is now known as nsh
2175 2014-03-05 21:28:59 <sipa> which makes the memo and refund fields completely pointless, as you can't rely on them as merchant
2176 2014-03-05 21:29:49 tarantillo_ has joined
2177 2014-03-05 21:30:31 <gmaxwell> I know you have.
2178 2014-03-05 21:30:49 <sipa> so yeah, preaching to the choir :)
2179 2014-03-05 21:30:49 <gmaxwell> sorry. I was lecturing not actually telling you something I thought you didn't know.
2180 2014-03-05 21:30:59 Adrao has joined
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2183 2014-03-05 21:33:10 qwebirc43888 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2184 2014-03-05 21:33:58 <chichov> is the reference to a transaction output (the hash) shown on blockexplorer in "reverse" or is it serialized in "reverse"?
2185 2014-03-05 21:35:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wait, why not have the client provide a refund address before it gets the payment details?
2186 2014-03-05 21:35:26 silkyyyy has joined
2187 2014-03-05 21:35:40 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: that would have been another possibility yes, but may not work for memo/comments
2188 2014-03-05 21:35:52 mljsimone has joined
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2190 2014-03-05 21:35:55 <sipa> where the user can enter data after seeing the request
2191 2014-03-05 21:36:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Memo/comments... from the client to the merchant?
2192 2014-03-05 21:36:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah
2193 2014-03-05 21:36:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(like what?)
2194 2014-03-05 21:36:22 draino has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2195 2014-03-05 21:36:35 <gmaxwell> (I guess my repetition of the result of not sending the result was something of a catechism)
2196 2014-03-05 21:36:51 <Cylta> is electrum reliable? Or any other client that does support thin-client console mode.
2197 2014-03-05 21:37:21 JackH has quit (Quit: JackH)
2198 2014-03-05 21:37:35 tlrobinson has joined
2199 2014-03-05 21:37:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Cylta: I've heard some positive things about Electrum
2200 2014-03-05 21:37:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(though I haven't personally used it myself)
2201 2014-03-05 21:37:52 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2202 2014-03-05 21:38:02 <Cylta> michagogo|cloud: what would you use as thin client?
2203 2014-03-05 21:38:11 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|uses Bitcoin Core
2204 2014-03-05 21:38:14 greg___ has joined
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2208 2014-03-05 21:38:29 <Cylta> bitcoind? it needs full chain.. and it's huge..
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2210 2014-03-05 21:38:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If I wanted a non-full node, I guess I'd probably give Electrum a try
2211 2014-03-05 21:38:38 <Cylta> okay, will try. thanks
2212 2014-03-05 21:38:41 w1zman has joined
2213 2014-03-05 21:38:46 <sipa> s/full //
2214 2014-03-05 21:38:55 johnsoft has joined
2215 2014-03-05 21:39:06 axvf has joined
2216 2014-03-05 21:39:11 <sipa> (not a quality judgement, just saying that technically electrum is not a network node)
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2218 2014-03-05 21:39:59 _ImI_ has quit (Quit: _ImI_)
2219 2014-03-05 21:40:05 <Cylta> can any wallet support multi-wallet mode?
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2222 2014-03-05 21:42:22 tesserajk has joined
2223 2014-03-05 21:42:26 <lechuga_> i doubt we're aware of every wallet implementation in existence
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2243 2014-03-05 21:56:58 <Cylta> what wallets do use mtgox, localbitcoin, or some other big btc exchanger? official bitcoind?
2244 2014-03-05 21:57:11 <gmaxwell> what?!
2245 2014-03-05 21:57:11 rdymac has joined
2246 2014-03-05 21:57:27 <gmaxwell> a wallet shouldn't have anything to do with exchanges, bitcoind certantly doesn't.
2247 2014-03-05 21:57:51 <Cylta> gmaxwell: hm. okay, I mean software that able to store\send btc that can be used on a website.
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2250 2014-03-05 21:59:05 edcba has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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2252 2014-03-05 22:00:21 <lechuga_> cylta: you could try setting up a wallet on blockchain.info and fund it meagerly to gain familiarity with the concepts
2253 2014-03-05 22:00:31 christophe has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2254 2014-03-05 22:00:53 <sipa> that you suggest a b.i wallet for convenience reasons on #bitcoin, ok, but here?
2255 2014-03-05 22:01:00 _ImI_ has quit (Quit: _ImI_)
2256 2014-03-05 22:01:03 <lechuga_> lol that's fair
2257 2014-03-05 22:01:10 <lechuga_> really this whole convo is OT
2258 2014-03-05 22:01:21 <Cylta> lechuga_: you mean using b.i wallet API on some website?..
2259 2014-03-05 22:01:22 fsi7 has quit (Quit: fsi7)
2260 2014-03-05 22:01:27 <gmaxwell> a b.i wallet is actually a really poor way to learn about the system in any case... as it's a pretty high level abstracted view of it.
2261 2014-03-05 22:01:28 derbumi has joined
2262 2014-03-05 22:01:41 <lechuga_> it sounds like high-level graps is still questionable in this situation
2263 2014-03-05 22:01:43 <sipa> less abstracted than most other wallets, actually...
2264 2014-03-05 22:01:45 <lechuga_> graps*
2265 2014-03-05 22:01:54 <sipa> (per address balances, ...)
2266 2014-03-05 22:01:55 <lechuga_> grasp*
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2269 2014-03-05 22:03:47 <vegard> gmaxwell: I want to add script support for checking the timestamp/depth of the block that spends it (to implement a dead man's switch -- if I don't spend some coins within 2 years, I want the coins to be spendable with a different pubkey (think lawyer, spouse, etc.)). what do you think? should I post to mailing list, draft a BIP, or just write patches?
2270 2014-03-05 22:03:51 christophe has joined
2271 2014-03-05 22:04:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vegard: Doesn't sound like something that can go into Bitcoin
2272 2014-03-05 22:04:27 nickler has joined
2273 2014-03-05 22:04:48 <vegard> why not?
2274 2014-03-05 22:05:00 <gmaxwell> vegard: you can implement that today without any changes to bitcoin by just authoring an nlocked spend.
2275 2014-03-05 22:05:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vegard: Because Script can't easily change
2276 2014-03-05 22:05:20 <lechuga_> bitcoind+crontab
2277 2014-03-05 22:05:28 <gmaxwell> Actually testing the height in script is quite dangerious because it makes it possible to build transactions which are not reorginization safe.
2278 2014-03-05 22:05:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And also, that could violate the principle that a transaction, once valid, is only invalidated by a double-spend
2279 2014-03-05 22:06:21 <vegard> michagogo|cloud: why would the script change?
2280 2014-03-05 22:06:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|s/is only/can only be/
2281 2014-03-05 22:06:24 jogos has joined
2282 2014-03-05 22:06:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vegard: 00:03:05 <vegard> gmaxwell: I want to add script support...
2283 2014-03-05 22:06:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That implies changing Script
2284 2014-03-05 22:06:57 <vegard> oh, I see
2285 2014-03-05 22:06:59 <gmaxwell> In any case, this is a tangent. I believe what you already want is there.
2286 2014-03-05 22:07:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|yeah, Script, not the script
2287 2014-03-05 22:07:11 <vegard> ok, I will look into nlocked.
2288 2014-03-05 22:07:16 aielima has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
2289 2014-03-05 22:07:28 <gmaxwell> Just draft and sign a transaction the is locked that directs the funds to another party... and set it aside.
2290 2014-03-05 22:07:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vegard: The idea is, you create a transaction that is only valid 2 years from now, sending the coins to your lawyer
2291 2014-03-05 22:07:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Sign it, give it to the lawyer
2292 2014-03-05 22:08:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|At any point before 2 years from now, just spend at least one of the inputs in another transaction to invalidate the timelocked transaction
2293 2014-03-05 22:09:10 <lechuga_> > if I don't spend some coins within 2 years, I want the coins to be spendable with a different pubkey
2294 2014-03-05 22:09:22 <lechuga_> thats a different question than what you're answering isn't it
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2297 2014-03-05 22:10:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lechuga_: "spendable with a different pubkey" is met by having a transaction that spends the coins to that pubkey
2298 2014-03-05 22:10:17 <vegard> well, this seems to achieve the result I am looking for anyway
2299 2014-03-05 22:10:43 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: same result.
2300 2014-03-05 22:10:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vegard: A word of advice
2301 2014-03-05 22:11:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you do this, you may want to sign the transaction ANYONECANPAY
2302 2014-03-05 22:11:20 <gmaxwell> A word of more meta-advice: Say what you want to achieve, not how you want to achieve it when you ask for thoughts. :)
2303 2014-03-05 22:11:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(to allow for adding fees later, if needed)
2304 2014-03-05 22:11:37 <gmaxwell> yes, any long locked transaction should be ANYONECANPAY so you can provide fees in the future.
2305 2014-03-05 22:11:43 <sipa> A word of meta-meta advice: listen to gmaxwell
2306 2014-03-05 22:11:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|A word of meta-meta-meta advice: listen to sipa
2307 2014-03-05 22:12:13 <vegard> well, I think I also stated what I wanted in the original question, so that's still ok, right?
2308 2014-03-05 22:12:30 <sipa> true, the purpose was clear enough
2309 2014-03-05 22:12:31 <gmaxwell> vegard: It worked out okay, it seems. :)
2310 2014-03-05 22:12:34 _ImI_ has joined
2311 2014-03-05 22:12:53 <gmaxwell> God help us if you'd only asked the first half. We'd still be debating making the height available to script.
2312 2014-03-05 22:13:47 <vegard> yeah, all of 7 minutes later we'd _still_ be debating that :P
2313 2014-03-05 22:14:36 Detritus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2314 2014-03-05 22:14:51 <gmaxwell> vegard: I did something kinda like this for a long time... I had a script that ran anytime I unlocked my wallet that wrote a transaction spending all its coins into an offline address, and just put the transaction aside. In that case I wasn't using a locktime. but it meant that without unlocking my wallet again I could cause all its coins to go off to another key.
2315 2014-03-05 22:15:01 Detritus has joined
2316 2014-03-05 22:15:11 <gmaxwell> (unlocking againâ and potentially exposing the coins to theft if my system was compromised)
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2319 2014-03-05 22:17:37 <vegard> yeah, I can see how that could be handy.
2320 2014-03-05 22:20:25 <vegard> I guess the disadvantage of lock_time is that you need to save/distribute the transaction yourself
2321 2014-03-05 22:20:38 <gmaxwell> vegard: you could give it to the person you want to have it.
2322 2014-03-05 22:21:14 <gmaxwell> If people cared it would be easy to setup a service that accepted locked transactions and broadcast them if they ever became eligible too.
2323 2014-03-05 22:21:21 Coincidental has joined
2324 2014-03-05 22:21:43 <lechuga_> that's a cool idea
2325 2014-03-05 22:21:53 <vegard> yeah, it's cool.
2326 2014-03-05 22:21:55 askmike has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2327 2014-03-05 22:22:13 <lechuga_> but then you'd have to trust them to not lose it
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2329 2014-03-05 22:22:49 Cheena has quit (Quit: Cheena)
2330 2014-03-05 22:23:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You could encode them in OP_RETURN outputs
2331 2014-03-05 22:23:10 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|runs
2332 2014-03-05 22:23:12 <lechuga_> lol
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2340 2014-03-05 22:26:14 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: you also have to trust them to not lose their private key... reduces to a previously (hopefully) solved problem. :P
2341 2014-03-05 22:26:33 <sipa> or put more abstractly
2342 2014-03-05 22:26:44 tlrobinson has quit (Quit: tlrobinson)
2343 2014-03-05 22:26:55 <sipa> to be able to be sure that they get their money, they must already be able to not lose their money
2344 2014-03-05 22:27:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Well, a transaction is bigger than a privkey...)
2345 2014-03-05 22:27:44 cadaverr has joined
2346 2014-03-05 22:27:50 eristisk has joined
2347 2014-03-05 22:27:57 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wonders how big a transaction encoded in a QR code would be
2348 2014-03-05 22:28:20 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: yes, but still not terribly big.
2349 2014-03-05 22:28:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: hence the parentheses
2350 2014-03-05 22:28:52 <lechuga_> i encoded one once and it was a fairly gnarly qrcode but it was also 2-of-3 (non-p2sh) multisig
2351 2014-03-05 22:28:56 richardkiss has joined
2352 2014-03-05 22:28:58 <saracen> Does scriptPub include the public key of the previous transactions's output public key?
2353 2014-03-05 22:28:59 BTC_Bear is now known as hbrntng!~BTC_Bear@unaffiliated/btc-bear/x-5233302|BTC_Bear
2354 2014-03-05 22:29:26 <sipa> no
2355 2014-03-05 22:29:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|saracen: uh, mind rephrasing that?
2356 2014-03-05 22:29:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, I think I understand
2357 2014-03-05 22:29:51 <sipa> scriptPubKey contains the conditions under which that newly created output can be spent
2358 2014-03-05 22:30:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|A scr- ^
2359 2014-03-05 22:30:11 <sipa> it is independent on which outouts were consumed to produce it
2360 2014-03-05 22:30:16 <sipa> *outputs
2361 2014-03-05 22:30:41 chichov has joined
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2363 2014-03-05 22:31:26 <mljsimone> Does g++ 4.8.2 have problems with bitcoin source code?
2364 2014-03-05 22:31:28 tlrobinson has joined
2365 2014-03-05 22:31:38 <saracen> sorry, I meant to say scriptSig
2366 2014-03-05 22:31:46 jogos has joined
2367 2014-03-05 22:32:13 <gmaxwell> saracen: depending on what you mean by public key, maybe it does sometimes.
2368 2014-03-05 22:32:22 aielima has joined
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2371 2014-03-05 22:32:48 <lechuga_> if the scriptPubKey uses OP_*SIG* then i *think* the answer is yes
2372 2014-03-05 22:32:54 <gmaxwell> the scriptSig does not include the scriptPubkey. It includes data to make the scriptPubkey return true. ... some of that data might be something you might call a "public key"
2373 2014-03-05 22:32:58 <dexX7> michagogo|cloud: qr can store about 3k ascii chars max afaik
2374 2014-03-05 22:32:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lechuga_: not necessarily
2375 2014-03-05 22:33:05 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: no.
2376 2014-03-05 22:33:36 Dizzle has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2377 2014-03-05 22:33:37 Cheena has joined
2378 2014-03-05 22:34:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lechuga_: if the scriptPubKey is a pay-to-pubkey-hash, the scriptSig is the ecdsa public key and a signature from that key
2379 2014-03-05 22:34:33 _ImI__ has quit (Quit: _ImI__)
2380 2014-03-05 22:34:35 <gmaxwell> saracen: Bitcoin transactions are signed using a novel cryptosystem called "script" ... which happens to embed ECDSA. The scriptPubKey _is_ the public keyâ the only public key for script itself. But because script embeds ECDSA you can ask questions about where ECDSA keys show up, and they can be in the scriptSig OR the scriptPubkey (or not there at all).
2381 2014-03-05 22:35:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or in the scriptPubKey in the scriptSig
2382 2014-03-05 22:35:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(In the case of P2SH)
2383 2014-03-05 22:36:08 <lechuga_> michagogocloud: right, isn't that what I said? eg. if the scriptpubkey makes use of a signature verification opcode it implies the redeem scriptsig is going to need to contain a pubkey?
2384 2014-03-05 22:36:18 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: but thats not correct.
2385 2014-03-05 22:36:29 <lechuga_> where does that break
2386 2014-03-05 22:36:36 <gmaxwell> for example, say my scriptPubkey is 0xpubkeyhere OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY
2387 2014-03-05 22:36:37 tlrobinson has quit (Quit: tlrobinson)
2388 2014-03-05 22:36:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: why VERIFY?
2389 2014-03-05 22:36:52 <lechuga_> ok yes it breaks :)
2390 2014-03-05 22:36:53 <gmaxwell> the signature would be <der encoded signature>
2391 2014-03-05 22:37:11 Eggman33 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2392 2014-03-05 22:37:11 tlrobinson has joined
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2394 2014-03-05 22:37:25 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: because explicit beats implicit? :P
2395 2014-03-05 22:37:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Don't you just need CHECKSIG there?
2396 2014-03-05 22:37:45 <lechuga_> if i amended my response to say "for standard scripts" would it be an accurate statement?
2397 2014-03-05 22:37:53 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: nope!
2398 2014-03-05 22:37:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lechuga_: no
2399 2014-03-05 22:37:58 <gmaxwell> a pay to pubkey is a standard script.
2400 2014-03-05 22:37:59 <lechuga_> ugh i suck at this
2401 2014-03-05 22:38:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Pay to pubkey is standard
2402 2014-03-05 22:38:06 <lechuga_> oh right
2403 2014-03-05 22:38:15 <gmaxwell> If you said "common scripts" then maybe you'd get a pass on that, since they're no longer that common.
2404 2014-03-05 22:38:23 <lechuga_> heh fair enough
2405 2014-03-05 22:38:55 <saracen> okay, so that was a lot to take in. Going back in time, when scripts were less fancy. And we use something really common...
2406 2014-03-05 22:39:07 <gmaxwell> I probably need to write up some bitcoin technical tutorial that covers the mental model of script as a cryptosystem. It's a really important idea and it's not well expressed anywhere.
2407 2014-03-05 22:39:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|saracen: Script used to be more fancy
2408 2014-03-05 22:39:22 <gmaxwell> ^ you type fast.
2409 2014-03-05 22:39:30 <saracen> if the scriptPubKey is <pubkey> OP_CHECKSIG
2410 2014-03-05 22:39:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The "disabled" (deleted) opcodes
2411 2014-03-05 22:39:38 <lechuga_> i often thought that a little game / js interpretor would be interesting
2412 2014-03-05 22:39:40 <lechuga_> and perhaps helpful
2413 2014-03-05 22:39:41 <saracen> is it unlikely that a public key will be in scriptSig?
2414 2014-03-05 22:39:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: who, me?
2415 2014-03-05 22:39:46 <lechuga_> interpreter
2416 2014-03-05 22:39:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|saracen: not at all
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2418 2014-03-05 22:39:54 <saracen> in a common, old script
2419 2014-03-05 22:40:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(If you mean EC pubkey)
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2421 2014-03-05 22:40:15 <gmaxwell> saracen: if the scriptPubKey were that then there would be no pubkey in the signature unless someone just decided to stuff it in there for the lulz.
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2423 2014-03-05 22:40:37 <saracen> okay, but if the scriptPubKey was hash160
2424 2014-03-05 22:40:40 <gmaxwell> (no ecdsa pubkey, to be clear)
2425 2014-03-05 22:40:47 <saracen> then it'd be likely the pub key would be in scriptSig?
2426 2014-03-05 22:40:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|saracen: Oh, missed the first message
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2428 2014-03-05 22:41:01 <gmaxwell> saracen: yes, a pay to hash160 must have a ecdsa public key in the signature.
2429 2014-03-05 22:41:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(That being the vast majority of transactions these data)
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2431 2014-03-05 22:41:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Days*
2432 2014-03-05 22:42:35 <gmaxwell> note that I'm qualfying there "ecdsa" .. because the real public key for the transaction is the scriptPubKeyâ if it weren't things wouldn't be secure.
2433 2014-03-05 22:42:36 <saracen> Right. So in an older transaction, where an EC pubkey was used. The input when going to spend, the scriptSig would consist of *just* the signature (most likely)?
2434 2014-03-05 22:42:44 <gmaxwell> saracen: yes.
2435 2014-03-05 22:42:56 <gmaxwell> you could stuff extra data in there but there is no reason to do so.
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2437 2014-03-05 22:43:29 <saracen> I see. Thanks. I think that's where I was confused. Looking at the wiki, it suggestions that it has a signature and public key. But I was looking at older transactions where the public key wasn't hashed in the previous transaction
2438 2014-03-05 22:44:51 <lechuga_> something like this for bitcoin scripts might be interesting/a fun way to learn them better: http://repl.it/languages/Forth
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2450 2014-03-05 22:51:59 <dexX7> lechuga_: let's say you enter a script. what would you except this thing to return?
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2459 2014-03-05 22:55:44 <lechuga_> i guess you would provide both halves and it returns true or false
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2461 2014-03-05 22:56:08 <lechuga_> you could test complex (and non-standard) script constructions
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2463 2014-03-05 22:56:51 <lechuga_> or even just simple ones
2464 2014-03-05 22:56:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lechuga_: fwiw, anything goes on testnet
2465 2014-03-05 22:57:00 <lechuga_> and that
2466 2014-03-05 22:57:37 <lechuga_> i suppose itd be more helpful to show you the execution per instruction
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2470 2014-03-05 22:58:09 <lechuga_> but some graphical dynamic tool for evaling scripts seems neat to me
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2474 2014-03-05 22:59:12 <lechuga_> but yes just giving it a shot and seeing if testnet accepts it will have the same effect but is maybe less user-friendly
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2476 2014-03-05 23:00:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lechuga_: testnet will accept any scriptPubKey
2477 2014-03-05 23:01:25 <mljsimone> Can you compile bitcoin code with g++ 4.8.2?
2478 2014-03-05 23:01:44 <mljsimone> I'm getting a lots of errors on rpcmining.cpp
2479 2014-03-05 23:01:44 <sipa> yes
2480 2014-03-05 23:01:49 <sipa> which?
2481 2014-03-05 23:02:15 <mljsimone> https://gist.github.com/mljsimone/0363fd4620393e06a0df
2482 2014-03-05 23:02:29 <mljsimone> sipa btw, that is for an altcoin, but it is the same code.
2483 2014-03-05 23:02:58 <sipa> hmm, i saw those errors being reported recently
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2485 2014-03-05 23:03:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|mljsimone: have you tries building Bitcoin and seeing if the same error occurred?
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2488 2014-03-05 23:05:01 <mljsimone> michagogo|cloud: nope but I can try
2489 2014-03-05 23:05:04 <mljsimone> sc
2490 2014-03-05 23:05:07 <mljsimone> sec
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2519 2014-03-05 23:20:20 <Ademan> Are any of the forks of jgarzik's pynode interesting?
2520 2014-03-05 23:20:55 <Ademan> aside from an SPV branch from amiller that I can see in the network graph
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2522 2014-03-05 23:22:22 <mljsimone> michagogo|cloud: https://gist.github.com/mljsimone/18db12a4659e08e1361f
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2527 2014-03-05 23:23:05 <mljsimone> michagogo|cloud: what int64_t comes from stdint or boost?
2528 2014-03-05 23:23:09 <mljsimone> that*
2529 2014-03-05 23:23:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|mljsimone: I don't know why that might be happening
2530 2014-03-05 23:23:33 <mljsimone> oh ok. Thanks for trying.
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2532 2014-03-05 23:23:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|My question was more of a "if it doesn't happen with bitcoin, this is the wrong channel"
2533 2014-03-05 23:23:54 <mljsimone> heh
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2565 2014-03-05 23:40:14 <maxplm> hi, can someone tell me what is going on here? this tx is showing as "unverified" in electrum and "unconfirmed" on bc.i https://blockchain.info/de/tx/59a8b0383ab2305050202caa036fffe3210751cc0ad3236a89ef98c609d9632a , but it is shown to be included in blocks long ago on blockr and blockexplorer
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2567 2014-03-05 23:41:37 <sipa> lesson 1: do not trust blockchain.info
2568 2014-03-05 23:41:50 <maxplm> yeah I don't
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2570 2014-03-05 23:42:00 <maxplm> but now I also don't rtust electrum
2571 2014-03-05 23:42:06 <Ademan> lol, electrum not showing it is strange though
2572 2014-03-05 23:42:21 <Ademan> what block was it included in?
2573 2014-03-05 23:42:30 <maxplm> indeed. I was worried bc.i and electrum servers are on different chains
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2576 2014-03-05 23:43:20 <maxplm> included in 288788 http://blockr.io/tx/info/59a8b0383ab2305050202caa036fffe3210751cc0ad3236a89ef98c609d9632a
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2587 2014-03-05 23:46:57 <Ademan> maxplm: https://blockchain.info/block-height/288788 hash matches for as long as I cared to compare...
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2594 2014-03-05 23:48:04 <Ademan> wow the bc.i listing of the block doesn't include your tx though
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2598 2014-03-05 23:49:56 <maxplm> heh
2599 2014-03-05 23:50:32 <maxplm> yeah I just checked, block hash matches on all sites, yet bc.i doesnt show it as included, and neither does electrum
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2601 2014-03-05 23:50:51 <maxplm> weird
2602 2014-03-05 23:50:59 <Ademan> maybe they're both truncating blocks after a certain size? that wouldn't make a heck of a lot of sense though
2603 2014-03-05 23:51:01 <sipa> my bitcoind says it is 288788
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2605 2014-03-05 23:51:50 <Ademan> what's the size of the block?
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2607 2014-03-05 23:52:09 <Ademan> oh, not even 500k
2608 2014-03-05 23:52:22 <maxplm> ok so apparently the electrum servers are having the same problem as bc.i
2609 2014-03-05 23:52:46 <Ademan> maxplm: hey check this out, bc.i says there are only 664 transactions in the block
2610 2014-03-05 23:52:59 <Ademan> blockr says 889
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2613 2014-03-05 23:53:38 <maxplm> heh
2614 2014-03-05 23:53:46 <gmaxwell> I liked the example etotheipi_ had the other morning where BC.i was saying a transaction was unconfimred ⦠but that the transactions spending its outputs were confirmed.
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2616 2014-03-05 23:53:59 <Ademan> gmaxwell: haha wow
2617 2014-03-05 23:54:00 <sipa> very strange
2618 2014-03-05 23:54:07 <sipa> number of transactions and size is wrong on b.i
2619 2014-03-05 23:54:10 <Ademan> do the bc.i devs hang out in here?
2620 2014-03-05 23:54:11 <sipa> but merkle root is right
2621 2014-03-05 23:54:17 <sipa> Ademan: very rarely
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2628 2014-03-05 23:59:57 <Anduck> if i accept transactions with 6 confirmations..