1 2014-03-06 00:00:03 <Anduck> what if someone mines straight to the address
   2 2014-03-06 00:00:14 <Anduck> won't it need like 100 confirmations to be "confirmed"
   3 2014-03-06 00:01:02 <maxplm> Ademan: I just fixed it in electrum by deleting the blockheaders and resyncing them. still weird, I feel like this should not happen
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   5 2014-03-06 00:01:17 <Anduck> i am using listsinceblock
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   8 2014-03-06 00:02:56 <sipa> Ademan: confirmations are a client-side policy
   9 2014-03-06 00:03:05 <sipa> Ademan: what you're talking about is maturity
  10 2014-03-06 00:03:11 <sipa> Ademan: which is a protocol rule
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  12 2014-03-06 00:03:29 <sipa> so yes, if someone mines directly to your address, you need to wait 101 blocks before you can spend the coin
  13 2014-03-06 00:03:33 <Anduck> ahh
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  15 2014-03-06 00:03:37 <Anduck> anduck btw*
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  18 2014-03-06 00:03:46 <sipa> ugh, confusing!
  19 2014-03-06 00:03:57 <sipa> but bitcoind's rpcs will list the transaction as immature before
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  21 2014-03-06 00:04:23 <Anduck> what i thought i'll do is do listsinceblock (lastblockhashIchecked, 1)
  22 2014-03-06 00:04:38 <Anduck> and then check for all where category=='receive'
  23 2014-03-06 00:04:51 <Anduck> and 'confirmations' >= 6
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  25 2014-03-06 00:05:38 <Anduck> is there a wat to distinguish a mined tx from normal tx
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  27 2014-03-06 00:06:18 <Anduck> way*
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  32 2014-03-06 00:08:19 <sipa> it will not be 'receive' but 'immature'
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  34 2014-03-06 00:08:54 <Anduck> hmm
  35 2014-03-06 00:09:06 <Anduck> there's no note about that in the source code btw
  36 2014-03-06 00:09:20 <Anduck> \"category\":\"send|receive\",
  37 2014-03-06 00:09:41 <Anduck> line 1370 src/rpcwallet.cpp
  38 2014-03-06 00:09:48 <sipa> pull requests welcome to improve it :)
  39 2014-03-06 00:10:08 <sipa> it can also be 'orphan' or 'generate'
  40 2014-03-06 00:10:10 <Anduck> hmm.. i searched code for 'immature'
  41 2014-03-06 00:10:11 <Anduck> ok
  42 2014-03-06 00:10:29 <Ademan> sipa: you confused me for a minute there lol
  43 2014-03-06 00:11:27 <Anduck> found it
  44 2014-03-06 00:11:27 <lechuga_> i cant imagine doing bitcoin dev and not parking a client in here 24/7
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  47 2014-03-06 00:12:10 <Anduck> category is 'orphan', 'immature' or 'generate'
  48 2014-03-06 00:12:20 <Anduck> and for -regular- send and receive it's 'send' or 'receive'
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  53 2014-03-06 00:12:42 <Anduck> so i should be safe from people mining to the address by only  looking at 'receie
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  55 2014-03-06 00:13:09 <sipa> yes
  56 2014-03-06 00:13:21 <Anduck> great. thanks for help!
  57 2014-03-06 00:13:51 <Anduck> if a transaction for malleated, how would it show?
  58 2014-03-06 00:14:17 <Anduck> though i only show >= 1 conf tx's
  59 2014-03-06 00:14:19 <sipa> one confirmed or unconfirmed
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  61 2014-03-06 00:14:24 <Anduck> ok
  62 2014-03-06 00:14:28 <sipa> another with -1 confirmations, as of 0.9
  63 2014-03-06 00:14:34 <Anduck> alright
  64 2014-03-06 00:14:37 <sipa> before, one that just never confirms
  65 2014-03-06 00:15:25 <Anduck> now i've solved incoming malleated tx's by removing the non-confirmed tx's after some time (from a system that lists all incoming transactions after they have 1 conf)
  66 2014-03-06 00:15:42 <Anduck> but yeah -1 conf mark will be better
  67 2014-03-06 00:15:57 <dexX7> maxplm: to what electrum server are you connected?
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  71 2014-03-06 00:17:41 <maxplm> dexX7 it did not matter, none showed it correctly. someone from #electrum told me to delete blockchain_headers and reconnect, and that fixed it. said it was a known bug, soon to be fixed
  72 2014-03-06 00:18:32 <dexX7> ah.. i searched for the tx via electrum's console and it showed up, so i was curious
  73 2014-03-06 00:19:24 <maxplm> apparently something fscked the headers in my client. all is well now, except that bc.i is still completely weird
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  83 2014-03-06 00:26:55 <lechuga_> lianj: don't suppose there's any chance you're actually up
  84 2014-03-06 00:26:56 <dexX7> maybe they have the exactly same problem?
  85 2014-03-06 00:27:01 <Gerendon> Hiring a programmer proficient in Ruby for a blockchain parser. PM for more information.
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  91 2014-03-06 00:31:39 <Ademan> really dumb question: what is the block index referred to by the getblockhash rpc call?
  92 2014-03-06 00:31:55 <maxplm> dexX7 yeah I jokingly suggested to the electrum guys they should tell bc.i how they fixed it
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  94 2014-03-06 00:32:59 <Ademan> is index the same as height?
  95 2014-03-06 00:33:41 <dexX7> yea that's the height
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 101 2014-03-06 00:38:20 <Ademan> I was confused because blockchain.info/block-index/$bi?format=json doesn't seem to be the same as height
 102 2014-03-06 00:38:54 <sipa> Ademan: the block index is the database that bitcoind maintains with information about every block
 103 2014-03-06 00:39:03 <sipa> Ademan: including some metadata, and where to find it on disk
 104 2014-03-06 00:40:34 <Ademan> sipa: sorry, I guess 'help' just refers to it as "index", but I mean the argument to getblockhash.
 105 2014-03-06 00:40:53 <Ademan> getblockhash <index>
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 107 2014-03-06 00:43:25 <sipa> oh, that should be height, indeed
 108 2014-03-06 00:43:55 <sipa> "index" here is just used as "position in database"
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 115 2014-03-06 00:50:57 <fake_nickname_00> Hello all. I'm looking to use Nakamoto block chains for a project of mine. I've looked on the wiki (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alternative_chain), but is there a well-documented guide for creating an altcoin.
 116 2014-03-06 00:51:03 <fake_nickname_00>  I want to create a coin that is 100% premined and that is distributed via faucets/bots. I specifically want to avoid public mining to prevent stockpile of the coins. (They can be transferred freely of course.)
 117 2014-03-06 00:51:21 <fake_nickname_00> Also, so I can prevent DDOS/Abuse.
 118 2014-03-06 00:52:05 <dexX7> http://pastebin.com/XVxxGk5n those are the missing ones for block 288788
 119 2014-03-06 00:52:44 <edcba> fake_nickname_00: see altcoin-dev chan :)
 120 2014-03-06 00:52:54 * Ademan didn't know that existed
 121 2014-03-06 00:53:04 <fake_nickname_00> edcba: Thanks!!
 122 2014-03-06 00:53:09 <Ademan> heh it doesn't
 123 2014-03-06 00:53:35 <Ademan> fake_nickname_00: I hope you understand everything you just described about your proposed altcoin would be extremely controversial
 124 2014-03-06 00:53:42 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 125 2014-03-06 00:53:53 <fake_nickname_00> Well, I don't want it to be currency.
 126 2014-03-06 00:54:43 <edcba> why not just use some centralized server to track all spending ?
 127 2014-03-06 00:55:49 <fake_nickname_00> I want the "confirmation" capability for transactions. (To prevent falsification, DDOS of nodes, decentralization, etc.)
 128 2014-03-06 00:56:18 <Ademan> ugh what's wrong with you python-bitcoinlib... manually issuing the call works fine...
 129 2014-03-06 00:56:36 Coincide_ has joined
 130 2014-03-06 00:57:11 <fake_nickname_00> edcba: I just don't want a user with a stockpile creating bots that create arbitrary transactions.
 131 2014-03-06 00:59:17 Tricky1 is now known as TrickY1
 132 2014-03-06 00:59:40 <fake_nickname_00> Ademan: How did you guys deal with the ddos a few days ago?
 133 2014-03-06 00:59:52 jogos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 134 2014-03-06 01:01:22 <fake_nickname_00> And so bitcoin-dev went dark....
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 144 2014-03-06 01:06:35 <Ademan> fake_nickname_00: I'm unaware of a ddos but maybe someone else in here knows, I'm not a core dev
 145 2014-03-06 01:06:43 johnsoft has joined
 146 2014-03-06 01:07:32 <fake_nickname_00> Ademan: I thought that some douche was creating an absurd amount of satoshi-scale transactions, and brought down a few exchanges.
 147 2014-03-06 01:08:33 <Ademan> fake_nickname_00: well all nodes running software authored in the past year(?) will reject transactions smaller than 5430 satoshis
 148 2014-03-06 01:10:06 <Ademan> I'm not quite sure how such an attack would be carried out unless a ton of malicious nodes managed to connect directly to the exchange nodes
 149 2014-03-06 01:10:32 <Ademan> anyways, if the exchanges couldn't handle that strain, how could your centralized(?) node possibly?
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 153 2014-03-06 01:13:34 <fake_nickname_00> Ademan: There is no centralized node, I just want to prevent a user from accumulating a stupidly high amount of coins. (I know I'm not making sense to you, but trust me on this one.)
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 158 2014-03-06 01:14:31 <fake_nickname_00> Ademan: *In the initial period that is*
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 180 2014-03-06 01:32:35 <Ademan> Did getblock ever take a second parameter?
 181 2014-03-06 01:34:20 <dexX7> the blockhash
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 183 2014-03-06 01:35:40 <Ademan> dexX7: hrm? isn't the blockhash the first parameter?
 184 2014-03-06 01:36:12 <dexX7> getblock 00000000000000010a3cf6ac89eda17dad289a4e48986f711f594c732ae3145c
 185 2014-03-06 01:36:20 <dexX7> ahh
 186 2014-03-06 01:36:21 <dexX7> sorry
 187 2014-03-06 01:36:47 <dexX7> the second one is optional and allows to get the raw data
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 191 2014-03-06 01:40:33 <Ademan> ah thanks
 192 2014-03-06 01:41:14 <Ademan> it looks like bitcoin-qt doesn't like it?
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 194 2014-03-06 01:42:20 <Ademan> hrm, but my bitcoind definitely does, egh
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 197 2014-03-06 01:43:42 <dexX7> try false, could take a moment to respond though
 198 2014-03-06 01:44:22 <Ademan> yeah it responds immediately "getblock <hash>\nReturns details of a block with given block-hash."
 199 2014-03-06 01:46:40 <Ademan> oh well, I was just annoyed because python-bitcoinlib unconditionally passes False as the second parameter, and my bitcoin-qt doesn't like it, but I'm issuing the rpc call manually now without the second parameter and it's all good
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 218 2014-03-06 01:58:59 <Cylta> b.i is offering to send password as plaintext in URL in https protocol. Is it any safe against traffic sniffers?
 219 2014-03-06 02:00:04 draino has joined
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 221 2014-03-06 02:02:46 kurtosis has joined
 222 2014-03-06 02:03:31 <Zarutian> Cylta: well, depends. Is the password in the hash fragment of the URL or not? (If latter then that damn HTTP Refferal header entry will leak it)
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 224 2014-03-06 02:04:11 <Cylta> example: https://blockchain.info/merchant/$guid/balance?password=$main_password
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 228 2014-03-06 02:05:09 <Cylta> does the https encrypt URL? or last part of URL after "?"?
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 232 2014-03-06 02:06:25 <SomeoneWeird> Cylta, afaik, yes, but it still shouldn't be used like that
 233 2014-03-06 02:06:55 <phantomcircuit> Cylta, that completely defeats the entire purpose of their javascript wallets
 234 2014-03-06 02:07:03 <phantomcircuit> Cylta, when you say "offering" what do you mean exactly?
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 236 2014-03-06 02:07:43 <Cylta> I mean that it's official how-to from https://blockchain.info/api/blockchain_wallet_api
 237 2014-03-06 02:08:32 <phantomcircuit> Cylta, that is 10000000% insecure
 238 2014-03-06 02:08:44 <phantomcircuit> those passwords will be sent to blockchain.info in plaintext
 239 2014-03-06 02:08:53 <phantomcircuit> they will be sent OVER tls/ssl
 240 2014-03-06 02:09:00 <phantomcircuit> however blockchain will receive them in plaintext
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 242 2014-03-06 02:09:25 <Cylta> is it safe against sniffers in between?
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 244 2014-03-06 02:09:37 <phantomcircuit> Cylta, and actually cloudflare would be able to see it plaintext inbetween
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 246 2014-03-06 02:09:51 <phantomcircuit> and their internal controls/security are (as far as I can tell) a joke
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 251 2014-03-06 02:14:25 <saracen> Cylta: https encrypts everything
 252 2014-03-06 02:16:03 <Cylta> saracen: so, https connection for sniffer will look like IP address + bunch of encrypted text? no URL and keys in it, no content?
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 255 2014-03-06 02:17:21 <phantomcircuit> Cylta, the connection will look like this
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 257 2014-03-06 02:18:00 <SomeoneWeird> saracen, yes, but it's still insecure as fuck
 258 2014-03-06 02:18:05 <phantomcircuit> Cylta, (your computer) <- encrypted nonsense -> (cloudflare.com servers) < - encrypted nonsense -> (blockchain.info servers)
 259 2014-03-06 02:18:19 <phantomcircuit> Cylta, ie both cloudflare.com and blockchain.info can see the password
 260 2014-03-06 02:18:30 <Cylta> okay, thanks
 261 2014-03-06 02:18:36 <phantomcircuit> so either one (or their employees) could steal your bitcoins
 262 2014-03-06 02:18:47 <phantomcircuit> otoh bc.i can just change the js they serve and rob you blind anyways
 263 2014-03-06 02:18:48 <SomeoneWeird> and wait, bc.i is using file_get_contents?
 264 2014-03-06 02:18:50 <SomeoneWeird> ugh.
 265 2014-03-06 02:18:50 <Ademan> haha wow bc.i
 266 2014-03-06 02:18:57 <phantomcircuit> and there's basically no way to prove they did it
 267 2014-03-06 02:19:08 <phantomcircuit> it's a brilliant scam really
 268 2014-03-06 02:19:18 <saracen> But that's the case for every site using cloudflare
 269 2014-03-06 02:19:24 <phantomcircuit> anybody who complains about losing bc.i funds must have had a bad password.... right? ???
 270 2014-03-06 02:19:26 <phantomcircuit> wrong
 271 2014-03-06 02:19:28 <saracen> It doesn't matter that here's a password involved.
 272 2014-03-06 02:19:32 <saracen> there's*
 273 2014-03-06 02:19:42 <gmaxwell> and there are already tons of people who've lost coin in bc.i which has been blamed on weak passwords and malware, ... and no way to tell if thats all there is to it. :(  (probably! but you can't tell)
 274 2014-03-06 02:19:44 <Cylta> is cloudfare expensive? how to check that my hosting is not using it? =)
 275 2014-03-06 02:19:47 <phantomcircuit> saracen, there is a reason you wont find banks using cloudflare
 276 2014-03-06 02:20:23 <saracen> phantomcircuit: I don't dispute that :)
 277 2014-03-06 02:20:59 <phantomcircuit> otoh cf can intercept anything
 278 2014-03-06 02:21:11 <phantomcircuit> iirc they can issue BGP routes and can issue arbitrary https certs
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 280 2014-03-06 02:21:30 <Ademan> I should probably know this, but what does cloudflare do? Do they do more than just deliver static content with regional servers?
 281 2014-03-06 02:22:04 <phantomcircuit> Ademan, that is really all that they do, but because of the weird way they implemented this, they also work like a really shitty ddos protection service
 282 2014-03-06 02:22:23 <phantomcircuit> Ademan, basically the way they implmented it is that they proxy all of your requests
 283 2014-03-06 02:22:36 <phantomcircuit> and automatically determine what can be cached
 284 2014-03-06 02:22:43 <Cylta> another question. how many people\companies have access to https certificates that are enough to decrypt random session?
 285 2014-03-06 02:22:45 <phantomcircuit> instead of you explicitly putting static content on a cdn
 286 2014-03-06 02:23:01 <SomeoneWeird> they also "filter" xss & sqli attempts
 287 2014-03-06 02:23:05 <SomeoneWeird> (which barely works)
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 289 2014-03-06 02:23:38 <phantomcircuit> lol do they?
 290 2014-03-06 02:23:56 <lechuga_> Cylta: it depends on the organization's policy
 291 2014-03-06 02:24:23 <SomeoneWeird> phantomcircuit, i was understating the "barely" bit
 292 2014-03-06 02:24:29 <lechuga_> if its poorly run any given ops guy could have access to the cert's private key
 293 2014-03-06 02:24:30 <Ademan> so it sounds like a zero-configuration cdn that has so much magic it's a problem?
 294 2014-03-06 02:24:44 <SomeoneWeird> lechuga_, Ademan correct
 295 2014-03-06 02:24:47 <phantomcircuit> Ademan, that would be about 99% correct
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 297 2014-03-06 02:26:24 <maaku> so much magic sounds like a good problem to have :\
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 302 2014-03-06 02:28:35 <Ademan> magic is great until you want to do something slightly different, and it becomes horrible, or if something goes wrong for other reasons it's impossible to debug
 303 2014-03-06 02:29:26 <lechuga_> all cdns have to do something interesting for ssl
 304 2014-03-06 02:30:42 <Ademan> How so? Couldn't you just have a subdomain and give the cdn the cert for only that subdomain?
 305 2014-03-06 02:31:16 <lechuga_> well at least the case for akamai is
 306 2014-03-06 02:31:23 <lechuga_> they want to route u to a server topologically close to you
 307 2014-03-06 02:31:38 <saracen> Ademan: If you're using them for protection, the idea is that no client directly connects to you. They have to go through cloudflare.
 308 2014-03-06 02:31:50 <lechuga_> which means several servers need to be able to use the same cert
 309 2014-03-06 02:31:54 jogos has joined
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 311 2014-03-06 02:32:48 <lechuga_> and you're trusting the cdn to manage that correctly and securely
 312 2014-03-06 02:32:52 <lechuga_> which is a lot of trust
 313 2014-03-06 02:33:09 [CS]Kiro has joined
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 315 2014-03-06 02:34:08 <lechuga_> and several banks and govt institutions use them
 316 2014-03-06 02:34:16 <lechuga_> and gox :)
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 320 2014-03-06 02:35:22 <Ademan> I had to retrofit some stuff for an unnamed department of the state of california... oh.my.god. that was some of the worst code I've ever seen
 321 2014-03-06 02:35:40 johnsoft has joined
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 323 2014-03-06 02:35:43 <lechuga_> i'd argue most code is terrible
 324 2014-03-06 02:35:44 olalonde has joined
 325 2014-03-06 02:35:52 <lechuga_> it's the norm not the exception
 326 2014-03-06 02:36:11 <Ademan> not my code! /s
 327 2014-03-06 02:36:17 <olalonde> is there a tool to build custom scripts using OP codes?
 328 2014-03-06 02:36:35 <dexX7> fyi: https://blog.blockchain.com/2014/03/05/occasional-unconfirmed-transactions-are-being-addressed/
 329 2014-03-06 02:36:37 <olalonde> without having to edit the binary directly
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 337 2014-03-06 02:40:44 <Ademan> olalonde: you could cook something up really easily with python-bitcoinlib
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 340 2014-03-06 02:41:03 <olalonde> Ademan: thanks. just found out about it actually
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 362 2014-03-06 02:48:08 <Ademan> Anyone else end up PM-ed by RandDev ?
 363 2014-03-06 02:49:17 askmike has joined
 364 2014-03-06 02:49:38 <jcorgan> Ademan: i've spent a bit of time in State of California's sacramento datacenter (a long time ago).  eww.
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 369 2014-03-06 02:55:01 <kjj> so, what is an appropriate reply to AIRCOINDEV 0?  diaf?
 370 2014-03-06 02:55:34 <Ademan> kjj: are nodes sending that on the network?
 371 2014-03-06 02:55:57 [CS]Kiro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 372 2014-03-06 02:56:10 <Ademan> oh is that a user?
 373 2014-03-06 02:56:11 <kjj> no idea.  does it interact with the network?  I'm just reading my PMs on the forum, figured most of us got the same junk
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 375 2014-03-06 02:56:39 <Ademan> ah sorry, I was thinking something stupid
 376 2014-03-06 02:56:48 <Ademan> jcorgan: haha, if you can share, what were you doing for them?
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 384 2014-03-06 03:00:46 <jcorgan> i was a field engineer for a company whose networking gear they had installed, and would go onsite to help them debug issues.
 385 2014-03-06 03:02:17 <Ademan> I bet you have some stories as a field engineer
 386 2014-03-06 03:02:32 <jcorgan> heh
 387 2014-03-06 03:02:34 <jcorgan> yah
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 391 2014-03-06 03:08:35 <Ademan> anyone know if blockchain.info will ratelimit/ban me for frequent requests? I'm using a 1s wait but since I'm going through the entire blockchain that'll be like... 80 hours... not including my processing time...
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 396 2014-03-06 03:12:58 <SomeoneWeird> Ademan, wtf are you doing that for?
 397 2014-03-06 03:13:38 <kjj> Ron needed to update his paper?
 398 2014-03-06 03:14:46 <Ademan> SomeoneWeird: Curiosity, while we were discussing someone's transaction not showing confirmed on blockchain.info I noticed that the blockchain.info page for the block in question was missing ~200 transactions from it... so I'm scanning for other such blocks
 399 2014-03-06 03:15:32 <kjj> it would probably be easier to just not use them as a serious data source.  their quirks are legendary
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 401 2014-03-06 03:16:09 <SomeoneWeird> Ademan, right, that makes slightly more sense
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 419 2014-03-06 03:29:49 <sugarpuff> sipa: i'm calling the rolling-root 99.9% trustless once the current "window" of size X has been received: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=501039.msg5539097#msg5539097
 420 2014-03-06 03:30:00 <sugarpuff> sipa: if i am wrong, please enlighten me
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 423 2014-03-06 03:31:04 <kjj> just page through dev&tech.  enlightenment is there if you want to go looking for it
 424 2014-03-06 03:31:23 viic has joined
 425 2014-03-06 03:31:28 <sugarpuff> kjj: constructive comments are welcome. others are not.
 426 2014-03-06 03:32:10 <kjj> I'll be sure to keep that in mind
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 431 2014-03-06 03:33:37 <kjj> I really don't understand why you are discussing this.  Clearly you've come up with an idea that no one ever has before.  Now you just need to code it up and the whole world will switch to your fork.
 432 2014-03-06 03:34:22 jogos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 433 2014-03-06 03:34:36 <sugarpuff> kjj: like, there's another unconstructive comment from you. do you want me to just ignore you? i'll pay attention when you actually talk about the merits of the proposal
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 436 2014-03-06 03:36:02 <kjj> you are already ignoring me.  why do you think I'll be offended if you also stop reading me?
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 439 2014-03-06 03:37:03 <kjj> but if you read what I just wrote, skipping the sarcasm if you must, you'll fine enlightenment there.
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 450 2014-03-06 03:49:52 <sugarpuff> gmaxwell: thanks for the response, replied.
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 486 2014-03-06 04:22:34 <jtimon> I'm trying to run a node on testnet and be isolated, but I can't find any value for pchMessageStart for which there's no peers, what would be the simplest solution to achive what I want? (basically have 2 nodes locally, one with "bitcoin-qt -testnet -datadir=tmp -nolisten -connect=127.0.0.1:18333")
 487 2014-03-06 04:22:34 <jtimon> should I mine another genesis block?
 488 2014-03-06 04:22:34 <jtimon> is there many people doing this same thing and that's why I find unwanted peers?
 489 2014-03-06 04:23:00 CBit has joined
 490 2014-03-06 04:24:41 <gmaxwell> yea, usually you just run two nodes locally.
 491 2014-03-06 04:25:35 qwdf has joined
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 494 2014-03-06 04:26:30 <jtimon> so how do people find unused magic numbers fast? just trial an error?
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 496 2014-03-06 04:27:01 <jtimon> s/an/and
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 505 2014-03-06 04:29:27 <jtimon> maybe it would be simpler to have a -localtest flag that only connects to nodes in localhost or something?
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 557 2014-03-06 05:12:08 <jtimon> I must be doing something wrong, i don't think there can be so many people testing simultaneusly on so many different values for pchMessageStart on -testnet
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 578 2014-03-06 05:23:03 <kjj> dude.  fix your connection
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 603 2014-03-06 05:50:32 <Ademan> they were quitting from excess flood, isn't that usually some form of spamming?
 604 2014-03-06 05:51:02 <kjj> probably a script gone wrong.
 605 2014-03-06 05:51:16 _ImI_ has joined
 606 2014-03-06 05:52:16 <kjj> typo in a script to automatically authenticate with nickserv, for example, causing a loop.  Or it could just be a funny part message.
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 610 2014-03-06 05:55:40 <gmaxwell> Ademan: no, its a dumbness in freenode/irc.
 611 2014-03-06 05:55:49 <gmaxwell>  /clients.
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 614 2014-03-06 05:56:16 <gmaxwell> if you're in too many channels and get dissconnected on timeout, your client will emit joins too fast on reconnect and freenode will punt you again.
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 616 2014-03-06 05:56:37 <gmaxwell> Current irssi appears not to have the problem but a lot of other ones do.
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 618 2014-03-06 05:59:46 <Ademan> ah
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 628 2014-03-06 06:09:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: iirc it's often not just joins
 629 2014-03-06 06:09:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But perhaps other commands, such as /who
 630 2014-03-06 06:11:10 <Ademan> bitcoin-qt doesn't have different RPC commands than bitcoind does it? I'm not sure why my bitcoin-qt (from the Ubuntu PPA) doesn't like getblock $hash False as best I can tell from git blame, the second (verbose) parameter has been around for a pretty long time
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 633 2014-03-06 06:12:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ademan: verbose isn't in 0.8.6
 634 2014-03-06 06:12:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You'll need to run from git
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 636 2014-03-06 06:12:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Or 0.9.0rc2)
 637 2014-03-06 06:12:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bitcoin.org/bin/
 638 2014-03-06 06:13:01 <kjj> just skip that parameter?
 639 2014-03-06 06:13:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|kjj: that doesn't give you the block in hex
 640 2014-03-06 06:13:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Basically, 0.8.6 only does verbose
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 644 2014-03-06 06:14:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|0.9 adds a flag, true by default, to give you the raw block instead
 645 2014-03-06 06:14:11 <kjj> ahh
 646 2014-03-06 06:14:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Erm, you set it to false for the raw block
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 650 2014-03-06 06:16:21 <Ademan> oh derp, the code could be old but still not in the release, got it heh
 651 2014-03-06 06:17:12 djcoin_ has joined
 652 2014-03-06 06:17:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ademan: yeah, 0.8.(3..6) forked off from 0.8.2
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 655 2014-03-06 06:17:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anything that was merged after 0.8.2 may not be in 0.8.(3..6)
 656 2014-03-06 06:18:31 <dexX7> does the mem pool only contain transactions that are not yet in a block?
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 658 2014-03-06 06:18:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|dexX7: yes
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 660 2014-03-06 06:20:13 <dexX7> thanks. and is there any way to get some kind of notification, if a new transaction (or block) was seen, instead of pulling the info?
 661 2014-03-06 06:20:19 <Ademan> woo thunder!
 662 2014-03-06 06:20:33 <kjj> like -walletnotify and -blocknotify?
 663 2014-03-06 06:21:06 <dexX7> awesome, thanks!
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 667 2014-03-06 06:26:23 <dexX7> as far as i can see walletnotify does not report any, but only wallet related transactions?
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 670 2014-03-06 06:26:54 <kjj> oh, right.  there is no way to get a notification on non-wallet transactions
 671 2014-03-06 06:27:09 <kjj> but I suppose you could troll your debug.log
 672 2014-03-06 06:28:01 <comboy> is tihs something new? http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/161.pdf
 673 2014-03-06 06:28:31 <dexX7> haha yea, that should work
 674 2014-03-06 06:29:46 <gmaxwell> comboy: new paper, though the only thing news about it is that they apparently implemented it (and maybe that they needed only ~200 samples)
 675 2014-03-06 06:30:12 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 676 2014-03-06 06:30:24 <gmaxwell> (e.g. we knew that openssl made no effort at timing/side-channel attack resistance for our curve)
 677 2014-03-06 06:30:39 <Ademan> gmaxwell: ?!
 678 2014-03-06 06:30:52 <comboy> gmaxwell: I'm suprised it's under 200, seems scary
 679 2014-03-06 06:31:09 <Ademan> if there was any library anywhere I'd expect to be robust to that sort of thing... it'd be OpenSSL
 680 2014-03-06 06:31:19 <gmaxwell> comboy: it requires running a tightly coupled process on the same host which is able to trigger l3 cache flushes.
 681 2014-03-06 06:31:36 yubrew has joined
 682 2014-03-06 06:31:39 <kjj> as in, if you are already owned...
 683 2014-03-06 06:31:48 cadaver has joined
 684 2014-03-06 06:31:59 <comboy> gmaxwell: ok, I did not understand it at all
 685 2014-03-06 06:32:05 <comboy> yeah, I'm dumb
 686 2014-03-06 06:32:10 <jcorgan> Ademan: your faith in OpenSSL is...disturbing :)
 687 2014-03-06 06:32:28 <Ademan> comboy: It's not really a practical attack
 688 2014-03-06 06:32:32 <gmaxwell> well, it's still not great. if you'd asked me a week ago I would have said ~2000-20000 probes for a local process, millions for one across a network.
 689 2014-03-06 06:32:37 <gmaxwell> Ademan: it may be in some enviroments.
 690 2014-03-06 06:32:52 Neil has joined
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 692 2014-03-06 06:33:13 <gmaxwell> there are a lot of bitcoin businesses running on VPSes, not clear to me how well it would work across a virtualization enviroment (certantly would add more noise).
 693 2014-03-06 06:33:52 <gmaxwell> of course, avoiding address reuse mostly kills it but it would be prudent to use a constant time / constant memory access signing implementation in any case.
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 695 2014-03-06 06:34:47 <Ademan> haven't there been a few VM escape exploits? I wouldn't trust a VM in a multi-tenant environment with lots of BTC...
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 698 2014-03-06 06:36:38 <maaku> I wouldn't trust a multi-tenant environment with lots of BTC....
 699 2014-03-06 06:36:59 <Ademan> heh fair enough
 700 2014-03-06 06:37:46 <gmaxwell> yea, well but people do.
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 702 2014-03-06 06:39:21 <Ademan> so has this bitcoin/secp256k1 been audited at all?
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 705 2014-03-06 06:40:05 <gmaxwell> what are you referring to specifically?
 706 2014-03-06 06:40:16 <gmaxwell> libscep256k1 or?
 707 2014-03-06 06:40:20 <Ademan> sorry, the actual library https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1
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 709 2014-03-06 06:40:44 <gmaxwell> Yes, it's been audited but it needs more auditing, it's been brutally hard to get people to look at it.
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 711 2014-03-06 06:41:28 <gmaxwell> though TBH I wouldn't be surprised if at this point it's had more inspection than the parallel openssl code. :(   In any case, it still doesn't have constant time/memory access signing yet.
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 714 2014-03-06 06:43:51 <Ademan> well signing is a relatively rare occurrence isn't it? If it verifies faster it's probably a massive win overall for bitcoin's usage
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 716 2014-03-06 06:45:00 <gmaxwell> the whole point of the library is to be faster.
 717 2014-03-06 06:45:14 <gmaxwell> It's like 6x faster than openssl on x86_64.
 718 2014-03-06 06:45:32 <gmaxwell> but it should also have constant time signing to address things like that paper.
 719 2014-03-06 06:45:49 <gmaxwell> (and the constant time signing will be slow, but no one cares.)
 720 2014-03-06 06:46:52 <Ademan> ah, right I was thinking something really stupid by "constant time", not security oriented
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 723 2014-03-06 06:48:49 <tarix_jp> was pondering the malleability a bit and wondered if this is a valid use. one has a POS system for bitcoin and a user pays without adding a fee. can you rebroadcast a new transaction to add an extra input with a fee? obviously only one goes through and you don't care much which one, but the idea is to push a free transaction into the paid blocks and re-send that to miners.
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 732 2014-03-06 06:56:05 <kadoban> tarix_jp: that's not actually malleability
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 735 2014-03-06 06:57:08 <tarix_jp> let's say Bitcoin Android Wallet sends a transaction to BitPay/Coinbase and then Bitpay/Coinbase add an extra input to add the fee. that's manipulating a transaction that they didn't create isn't it?
 736 2014-03-06 06:57:43 <tarix_jp> it seems valid since each input is signed independently, and of course merchant service wallets don't care which transaction gets confirmed.
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 749 2014-03-06 07:03:31 <gmaxwell> tarix_jp: they aren't signed completely independantly unless you are using ANYONECANPAY
 750 2014-03-06 07:03:55 <gmaxwell> in sighash all the signatures are independant of other signatures, but not the coins being spent.
 751 2014-03-06 07:04:11 <gmaxwell> but indeed, a third party can add fees if you use ANYONECANPAY
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 753 2014-03-06 07:05:11 <tarix_jp> which requires the wallet to create the "right" kind of transaction for pos and others are already working on better systems anyway.
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 758 2014-03-06 07:09:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;seen jtimon
 759 2014-03-06 07:09:17 <gribble> jtimon was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 hour, 57 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <jtimon> I must be doing something wrong, i don't think there can be so many people testing simultaneusly on so many different values for pchMessageStart on -testnet
 760 2014-03-06 07:09:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh
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 811 2014-03-06 08:06:31 <tlrobinson> if you were to pick an ideal existing serialization scheme (protobufs, msgpack, asn.1, etc) to replace the hodgepodge that is the bitcoin protocol(s) currently, what would you pick and why?
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 816 2014-03-06 08:13:16 <wumpus> tlrobinson: satoshi commented on that: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=632.15
 817 2014-03-06 08:13:41 <wumpus> basically he didn't want to rely on an external serialization library: too many unknowns
 818 2014-03-06 08:14:11 <gmaxwell> tlrobinson: absolutely none of them (well: I am not familar with msgpack), they all have underspecified behaviror, malleability, non-canonical encoding that leads to failure on roundtripping. Basically every serious technical complaint we've had about the encoding other than alt implementers complaining about actually having to code. :)
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 820 2014-03-06 08:14:53 <gmaxwell> the places where satoshi did use external seralization (e.g. der encoding from openssl) turned out to be problematic too. :(
 821 2014-03-06 08:16:37 <wumpus> the inconsistency is what makes it a hodgepodge: if only he just had sticked with his serialization scheme everywhere, and not used DER for public keys for example
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 823 2014-03-06 08:19:20 <tlrobinson> not to mention inconsistent endianness, and now protobufs in bip 70 :)
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 825 2014-03-06 08:20:53 <wumpus> nah bad example, bip 70 is an external protocol for user/merchant interaction, it doesn't interface with the protocol or blockchain in any way
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 831 2014-03-06 08:26:18 <Goonie> morning!
 832 2014-03-06 08:26:34 <wumpus> morning
 833 2014-03-06 08:28:08 <tlrobinson> wumpus: ok well i was asking because i'd like something like the previously discussed zeromq support https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2415 but perhaps with a serialization that's easier to parse in a variety of languages
 834 2014-03-06 08:29:25 <tlrobinson> (sort of like what mongrel2 does for http)
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 836 2014-03-06 08:30:04 <wumpus> json-over-zmq as used in that pull was fine -- the reason that it was closed is twofold: 1) bitcoind is not modular enough yet to integrate alternative RPC schemes without making the code a mess 2)  the comments were not addressed, ie it allowed all RPC commands without authentication 
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 838 2014-03-06 08:31:32 <gmaxwell> tlrobinson: if you mean for things like bitcoin transaction data, you can't really change the serialization and do anything with it. E.g. if I give you a transaction which has been reseralized into another form, and I ask you to spend it— you can't  because doing so requires hashing the data in the original serialization. (unless you do something kinda ugly and send both a decode and the original data)
 839 2014-03-06 08:31:33 <wumpus> (that was also before autotools;  we can now cope slightly better with optional dependencies)
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 844 2014-03-06 08:37:39 <tlrobinson> makes sense, i think. my immediate use case was to dump blocks/txs into a database, in which case i suppose including the hash as another field would be sufficient, but that might not be as useful in the general case
 845 2014-03-06 08:38:42 <wumpus> gmaxwell: but in a way that's what decoderawtransaction / createrawtransaction does, it converts from tx serialization to/from json, so before the signing stage it can make some sense
 846 2014-03-06 08:39:14 troj has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 847 2014-03-06 08:39:16 <gmaxwell> yup. including the original serialization too.
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 849 2014-03-06 08:39:32 <wumpus> aha, that's an example of the 'ugly' :<
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 851 2014-03-06 08:40:37 <gmaxwell> hm. actually decoderaw doesn't, I stand corrected. Things like getrawtransaction with the decode argument do...
 852 2014-03-06 08:40:53 <gmaxwell> and I don't really have a problem with it, it's ugly however, but I've personally found it pretty useful.
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 855 2014-03-06 08:41:27 <gmaxwell> (I guess it makes sense decode doesn't since you actually send that as an input. :) )
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 857 2014-03-06 08:41:49 <gmaxwell> anyways, point was that for anything where the data gets hashed (e.g. signing, spending) you need the original serailzation.
 858 2014-03-06 08:41:52 <wumpus> in any case those are just utility methods, they could just as well be an external library, having them RPCs is just a way to avoid having to make an implementation in every language and/or mess around with bindings :p
 859 2014-03-06 08:42:14 <gmaxwell> wumpus: they also make bitcoin-cli a useful cli client.
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 861 2014-03-06 08:42:47 <wumpus> a cli could implement them cilent-side too :-)
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 864 2014-03-06 08:43:25 <gmaxwell> it's true— then that would make the RPC very hard to use if you end up having to then reimplement the friendly interafaces in every application where you need them. :P
 865 2014-03-06 08:43:28 <TD> good morning
 866 2014-03-06 08:43:28 <wumpus> we've chosen to make bitcoin-cli a thin RPC client as that's most straightforward and RPC has the utility functions
 867 2014-03-06 08:43:39 <wumpus> a bit of a chicken and egg
 868 2014-03-06 08:44:09 <gmaxwell> well its also a learning curve thing to have good agreement between the rpc and cli where doing so makes sense.
 869 2014-03-06 08:44:10 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes, that's what i meant with the client-side library and bindings for every language
 870 2014-03-06 08:44:18 <gmaxwell> okay that works too.
 871 2014-03-06 08:44:29 <wumpus> not saying it'd be better but it was just a choice
 872 2014-03-06 08:45:08 <gmaxwell> right, would probably be a lot faster than decoding data to json, seralizing to json, deseralizing json, etc. :P oh well.
 873 2014-03-06 08:45:35 <wumpus> yep! especially when the RPC server is another machine
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 875 2014-03-06 08:46:34 <wumpus> then one could make a super-stripped down RPC interface with just the commands that require actual connection to the network and/or control bitcoind execution
 876 2014-03-06 08:46:43 <wumpus> nah
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 879 2014-03-06 08:47:17 <gmaxwell> rpc is already pretty slow, I was doing some blockchain analysis, last week which involved doing a getraw on every transactions inputs, and I rewrote my analysis code in C++ (from the original python/rpc code) in the time the python/rpc analyized 10 blocks. (and then the C++ code ran at several blocks per second)
 880 2014-03-06 08:47:19 <wumpus> next is 'you don't need sendrawtransaction you can just do it over P2P fool!' 
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 882 2014-03-06 08:47:55 <wumpus> the RPC interface is always a compromise between minimalism and usability
 883 2014-03-06 08:48:46 <wumpus> yes, RPC is slow, it was never designed for pumping over large amounts of data
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 885 2014-03-06 08:49:32 <jouke> gmaxwell: the python code worked with RPC, and your C++ code worked with the blockfiles?
 886 2014-03-06 08:50:14 <gmaxwell> no c++ code inside bitcoind, that used the same codepaths the rpc used, but without the seralize+socket+deseralize/python overhead.
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 889 2014-03-06 08:50:46 <gmaxwell> er to make that clear I should have written "no," instead of "no"
 890 2014-03-06 08:51:03 <jouke> ok :)
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 915 2014-03-06 09:16:51 <finway> anybody see this ? http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/161.pdf
 916 2014-03-06 09:17:09 <finway> OpenSSL / Bitcoin implementation of ECDSA Flaw discovered (beta.slashdot.org)
 917 2014-03-06 09:17:10 <finway> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zp4ck/openssl_bitcoin_implementation_of_ecdsa_flaw/
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 925 2014-03-06 09:23:33 <gmaxwell> finway: someone decided they wanted to manipulate markets with a crappy sensationalist headline I guess. Yea, we're aware of it.
 926 2014-03-06 09:24:10 <finway> gmaxwell, so it's not a serious problem ?
 927 2014-03-06 09:24:24 <gmaxwell> I don't think any of it is really news to us except: (1) they actually apparently implemented it, and (2) that it sometimes works with 200 probes instead of 1000s.  It requires the ability to run code on the same machine as the signer and to get it to do lots of signatures with the same key on demand.
 928 2014-03-06 09:26:00 <finway> gmaxwell: i guess so,thanks.
 929 2014-03-06 09:26:11 Grouver has joined
 930 2014-03-06 09:26:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: my implementation has uniform memory access, iirc
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 932 2014-03-06 09:27:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: but there are a few possible branches still (if you accidentally hit the same point as you're adding or its opposite)
 933 2014-03-06 09:27:47 <finway> sipa: funny
 934 2014-03-06 09:29:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think I totally missed adding constant time stuff to it. I don't think I've looked at any of that code.
 935 2014-03-06 09:29:42 <gmaxwell> uh
 936 2014-03-06 09:30:40 <sipa> gmaxwell: so what i do (iirc, it's been a while), is have precomputed multiples of the form a*16^n*G, with a between 1 and 4, and n 0 through 63
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 938 2014-03-06 09:31:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: then pick bits in groups of 4 from the multiplicand, pick that G multiple, and add it
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 940 2014-03-06 09:31:35 <sipa> then in the end subtract (1+16+256+4096+...)*G
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 942 2014-03-06 09:32:05 <sipa> and those G multiples are striped per byte in memory
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 944 2014-03-06 09:32:50 <sipa> a between 1 and 16
 945 2014-03-06 09:32:54 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: so while looking at the history of that repository, FieldElem::IsZeroCT() return (n[0] == 0 && n[1] == 0 && n[2] == 0 && n[3] == 0 && n[4] == 0); ... you know that && is shortcutting  (it _must_ be shortcutting, in fact, its not optional)
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 947 2014-03-06 09:33:40 <CodeShark> yeah, not all functions in that library are constant-time
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 949 2014-03-06 09:35:20 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: that particular diff added several "*CT" operations and at least to of them weren't. :P
 950 2014-03-06 09:35:35 <CodeShark> which file, which commit?
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 952 2014-03-06 09:35:58 <gmaxwell> it's an old commit, 8803181c6178a39129b15f21f70aaa2553f56c49  I think this isn't in the current code.  field.cpp
 953 2014-03-06 09:36:29 <gmaxwell> I only mentioned it in case you actually didn't know that rather than it being temporary thing or a momentary brainfart.
 954 2014-03-06 09:37:05 <CodeShark> are you talking about CodeShark/cmp?
 955 2014-03-06 09:37:30 <gmaxwell> sipa: interesting!
 956 2014-03-06 09:37:42 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: no commits in sipa's libsecp256k1
 957 2014-03-06 09:37:47 <CodeShark> oh
 958 2014-03-06 09:38:03 <CodeShark> yeah, we started working on constant-time implementations, but never finished
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 962 2014-03-06 09:38:48 <CodeShark> constant time would be return ~(n[0] | n[1] | n[2] | n[3] | n[4])
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 964 2014-03-06 09:39:24 <CodeShark> err, &
 965 2014-03-06 09:39:42 <CodeShark> err, I'm tired :p
 966 2014-03-06 09:39:48 <gmaxwell> yea yea don't worry.
 967 2014-03-06 09:40:07 <sipa> gmaxwell: i believe the result may actually be timing-attack free, as the only way to hit one of the branches is by having a multiplication that ends up with the point at infinity near the end of the algorithm (which means the signature is potentially not even valid)
 968 2014-03-06 09:40:30 <sipa> wait, that's a too strong statement
 969 2014-03-06 09:41:15 <sipa> anyway, i believe (but will certainly not promise) that it may in practice be resistant to cache timimg
 970 2014-03-06 09:41:19 <CodeShark> return !(n[0] | n[1] | n[2] | n[3] | n[4])
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 972 2014-03-06 09:42:14 <gmaxwell> as I've said before I think, timing attack free is probably impossible to be sure of (1) in C, unless you audit the asm yourself, and/or (2) running on modern hardware...
 973 2014-03-06 09:42:20 e4xit has joined
 974 2014-03-06 09:42:21 <gmaxwell> but certantly there are degrees… :)
 975 2014-03-06 09:42:36 <CodeShark> you mean the compiler could subvert your efforts? :)
 976 2014-03-06 09:42:52 <gmaxwell> Absolutely. There is no promises in the timing behavior of the code.
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 978 2014-03-06 09:43:06 <sipa> you can make it arbitrarily hard for the compiler, i think
 979 2014-03-06 09:43:18 <gmaxwell> Sure, sure, but its still hard to be sure.
 980 2014-03-06 09:43:26 <CodeShark> wouldn't it be fairly easy to scan the asm for branch instructions?
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 982 2014-03-06 09:43:54 <sipa> well you can just implement a constant-time compare operation is assembly...
 983 2014-03-06 09:44:04 <gmaxwell> branches aren't the only way to get timing differences though, cache behavior does too. (E.g. data dependant memory accesses)
 984 2014-03-06 09:44:05 <CodeShark> but even if you write it in C
 985 2014-03-06 09:44:11 TD has joined
 986 2014-03-06 09:44:22 <CodeShark> how can you have data-dependent memory access if you're always using the same inputs everywhere?
 987 2014-03-06 09:44:27 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: that was my "audit the asm"
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 990 2014-03-06 09:45:14 <CodeShark> that's to say, there's no pointer arithmetic taking place
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 993 2014-03-06 09:45:53 <CodeShark> or at least no data-dependent pointer arithmetic
 994 2014-03-06 09:45:55 <gmaxwell> well for example it can reorder the accesses, so for example code that works by accessing two things and throwing away one could be subverted by the compiler.
 995 2014-03-06 09:46:05 <antephialtic> disable optimizations for crypto code?
 996 2014-03-06 09:46:08 <gmaxwell> (same kinds of optimizations that surprise people in concurrent software)
 997 2014-03-06 09:46:25 <CodeShark> I think you could make it essentially impossible for the compiler to optimize certain things
 998 2014-03-06 09:46:36 <sipa> pretty sure that libsecp256k1 is resistant to the attack in that paper; it does not have direct branches because of bits set in the multiplicant
 999 2014-03-06 09:46:45 <TD> when can we switch? :)
1000 2014-03-06 09:46:47 <gmaxwell> sipa: go ask them? :P
1001 2014-03-06 09:46:57 <antephialtic> so absent 1) data dependent branching, 2) data dependent array indexing, compiler optimizations can still make timing attacks possible?
1002 2014-03-06 09:47:25 Adlai has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1003 2014-03-06 09:47:25 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: you can try. And probably be successful. And hope next year as smarter compiler doesn't come along.
1004 2014-03-06 09:47:26 go1111111 has joined
1005 2014-03-06 09:47:45 <gmaxwell> In any case, I just encourage caution about saying that something is completely free.
1006 2014-03-06 09:47:52 Adlai has joined
1007 2014-03-06 09:48:10 <CodeShark> if you're really paranoid about the compiler, you could even use some form of masking with arbitrary inputs that don't get specified until after compilation
1008 2014-03-06 09:48:14 <gmaxwell> Esp since _power_ analysis is much harder to control, and there can be software accessible ways to perform power analysis (e.g. record with a soundcard)
1009 2014-03-06 09:48:36 <antephialtic> actually this is a quote from djb "Even on architectures that support fast constant-time conditional-move instructions, always assume that a comparison in C is compiled into a branch, not a conditional move. Compilers can be remarkably stupid."
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1011 2014-03-06 09:48:58 <CodeShark> but anyhow, I think a cursory examination of the machine code could demonstrate that the three conditions antephialtic mentioned are satisfied
1012 2014-03-06 09:49:10 <gmaxwell> antephialtic: the compiler isn't always stupid wrt cmov ... on p4 it stalled the pipeline, on later processors its basically the same speed as the branch. :P
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1014 2014-03-06 09:49:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: the method i'm using can be adapted to be initialized with a random (secret) multiplicant, and then in the end subtract it
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1016 2014-03-06 09:49:38 <sipa> gmaxwell: of course, perhaps there is way that secret can leak as well
1017 2014-03-06 09:50:03 <CodeShark> the secret multiplicant could be hardcoded after compilation
1018 2014-03-06 09:50:03 <gmaxwell> sipa: right, still another degree of freedom. In a signature you already have the secret r factor.
1019 2014-03-06 09:50:18 <CodeShark> the point is only to make it impossible for the compiler to optimize
1020 2014-03-06 09:50:29 <CodeShark> once compilation is complete, you can make that multiplicant a hardcoded constant
1021 2014-03-06 09:50:31 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: there isn't realy an optimization threat there.
1022 2014-03-06 09:51:15 <gmaxwell> sadly it's really hard to include a in-distribution unit test for this stuff... since timing tests aren't terribly reliable in the field.
1023 2014-03-06 09:51:20 <CodeShark> in any case, I'm pretty certain it's possible to satisfy the three conditions antephialtic mentioned without the need for extremely sophisticated tools
1024 2014-03-06 09:51:22 <gmaxwell> and false postives stink.
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1026 2014-03-06 09:52:00 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: you are _still_ not guarenteed sidechannel freeness even with all of that and more.
1027 2014-03-06 09:52:13 <gmaxwell> (though indeed you can be much closer)
1028 2014-03-06 09:52:40 <sipa> CodeShark: the code is indeed independent of which secret constant you choose; it can be determined at runtime
1029 2014-03-06 09:53:00 <gmaxwell> it's just a form of blinding.
1030 2014-03-06 09:53:00 <sipa> (there is a bit of preprocessing, but that is not data dependent in any case)
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1032 2014-03-06 09:53:14 <sipa> but it is not constant time
1033 2014-03-06 09:53:27 <CodeShark> the business of security is not about making attacks by determined, motivated, well-resourced individuals impossible - it's about just making attacks hard enough so that attackers either lack the motivation or the resources
1034 2014-03-06 09:53:43 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I think you're arguing with someone who isn't me.
1035 2014-03-06 09:53:43 <sipa> there are still branches inside (though thenodds of hitting them is astronomically small, i THINK)
1036 2014-03-06 09:54:34 <CodeShark> we're only smart enough to devise systems that we ourselves can't break, after all :p
1037 2014-03-06 09:55:09 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: absolutely nowhere have I suggested getting the most constant time we can realistically achieve is bad. I'm just cautioning against saying its free of sidechannels, because then someone will say "I can put this on a shared host, and reuse keys, and have no risk" and thats not true. Not only do we not know what we don't know— we actually know this promise is unusually hard to make.
1038 2014-03-06 09:55:23 <CodeShark> I'm not arguing for complacency :)
1039 2014-03-06 09:55:39 <CodeShark> there are plenty of other attack vectors that are far simpler in practice in most deployments of bitcoin wallets
1040 2014-03-06 09:55:46 <gmaxwell> oh sure.
1041 2014-03-06 09:56:09 <gmaxwell> sipa: maybe the authors of that paper would like to do a second one about analyizing and hardening your implementation. :P
1042 2014-03-06 09:57:12 <gmaxwell> playing around with the blinding approach sounds like a nice science project for someone.
1043 2014-03-06 09:57:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm I see your constant timeness is not uniform between the different field implementations.
1044 2014-03-06 09:57:44 <gmaxwell> e.g. secp256k1_fe_is_zero in field_10x26.h vs field_gmp.h
1045 2014-03-06 09:57:47 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hey, do any of the payment gateways secure their wallets with m-of-n addresses?
1046 2014-03-06 09:58:10 <gmaxwell> at least there are nice todo's in the code.
1047 2014-03-06 09:59:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: hmm, those seem like an easy target fornfurther hardening
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1049 2014-03-06 10:01:20 <gmaxwell> in any case, wouldn't be hard to setup a test shim that times the multiply using the TSC over and over again and tested with— say, keys with low and high hamming weights and see if they're classifyable by time.
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1051 2014-03-06 10:02:22 <sipa> gmaxwell: seems i misremember and don't stripe by byte
1052 2014-03-06 10:03:01 <gmaxwell> yea, so indeed there is a cache locality leak then.
1053 2014-03-06 10:03:26 <sipa> which means you may get some cache timing from doing multiple multiplications with numbers that share bit sequences
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1055 2014-03-06 10:04:22 <gmaxwell> I hate that there is so pressure against publishing negative results.
1056 2014-03-06 10:04:54 <gmaxwell> it's a reason why people working on this would be uninterested in attempting to attack something believed to be stronger— too likely to get a negative result.
1057 2014-03-06 10:05:58 <sipa> well, at least their interests align with those of actual attackers :)
1058 2014-03-06 10:06:25 <sipa> you don't needbto outrun the tiger, just your friend
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1061 2014-03-06 10:06:39 <CodeShark> I'm still looking forward to dedicated hardware for signing :)
1062 2014-03-06 10:07:24 <gmaxwell> hah
1063 2014-03-06 10:07:31 <CodeShark> dedicated hardware with its own power supply, of course:)
1064 2014-03-06 10:08:23 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: power analysis resistance is just miserably hard.
1065 2014-03-06 10:08:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: do we need to supportnhardware with cache lines less than 16 bytes? :p
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1067 2014-03-06 10:08:38 <gmaxwell> sipa: no.
1068 2014-03-06 10:08:41 <vegard> maybe it's easier to introduce some random delays/memory accesses into the computation to mask the leaked information?
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1070 2014-03-06 10:09:08 <gmaxwell> vegard: often doesn't help.
1071 2014-03-06 10:09:19 <gmaxwell> probably most effective against remote attacks.
1072 2014-03-06 10:09:41 <gmaxwell> but local attacks can measure things like cache sidechannels without actually timing the operation.
1073 2014-03-06 10:09:47 <antephialtic> how would you go about exploiting this in practice
1074 2014-03-06 10:10:36 <antephialtic> just go start/stopping up a bunch of ec2 instances, exploiting the cache info until you were sure that one was loading the shared lib for ecdsa signing in openSSL?
1075 2014-03-06 10:11:09 <CodeShark> as for power analysis resistance, if you're using a Haswell chip, chances are signing operations are practically indistinguishable from noise - but if you're using a small, low-power microcontroller it's a different story
1076 2014-03-06 10:11:10 <antephialtic> (this is all hypothetical of course)
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1078 2014-03-06 10:11:27 <gmaxwell> Nah, in pratice its useful only in a very targeted sense. Like if there is a frontend and a backend server on the same host and you cracked the front end.
1079 2014-03-06 10:12:28 <antephialtic> hmm. I was under the impression that this could be exploited by anyone running on the same vm as you
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1081 2014-03-06 10:12:51 <gmaxwell> antephialtic: yes but you have to actually know its there and know how to trigger it to sign.
1082 2014-03-06 10:13:01 <gmaxwell> otherwise you're measuring rather faint noise.
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1086 2014-03-06 10:18:24 <antephialtic> gmaxwell: yes that seems to be the case. seems like a vulnerability that one would need quite a bit of expertise to use in practice.
1087 2014-03-06 10:19:00 <CodeShark> smart company policies and good tools to create them and enforce them is where it's at :)
1088 2014-03-06 10:19:38 <CodeShark> all the technology in the world can't save you from stupid policy
1089 2014-03-06 10:20:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: the smallest cacheline I can find on anything I think we might run on, and can find spec for is the 486's L1 had a 16 byte cacheline.
1090 2014-03-06 10:20:43 <gmaxwell> antephialtic: sure sure, though thats the case for many things.
1091 2014-03-06 10:21:11 <gmaxwell> because of things like VM escapes and other data leaks I think running anything high value on shared hardware is mildly crazy to begin with.
1092 2014-03-06 10:21:30 <CodeShark> redundancy and rotation :)
1093 2014-03-06 10:21:44 loltu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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1095 2014-03-06 10:22:27 <CodeShark> and a little unpredictability to throw your adversary off
1096 2014-03-06 10:22:45 <CodeShark> but not so much unpredictability that you confuse yourself
1097 2014-03-06 10:22:50 <antephialtic> yeah, I would only use shared servers for something low-value. Like say, trading magic the gathering cards.
1098 2014-03-06 10:22:55 <CodeShark> haha
1099 2014-03-06 10:23:25 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yea, I have mixed feeling about things like trying to blind operations ... maybe it throws off attacks, but maybe it adds bugs that create weaknesses.
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1109 2014-03-06 10:35:16 <anton000> currently how big is the testnet blockchain?
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1122 2014-03-06 10:49:35 <stonecoldpat> am i right in thinking, listsinceblock will give me a list of all transactions from a given block? so just an array of transactions?
1123 2014-03-06 10:49:42 <stonecoldpat> an array of the transaction hash?
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1125 2014-03-06 10:50:42 <sipa> stonecoldpat: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/rpcwallet.cpp#L1360
1126 2014-03-06 10:50:45 mattco_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1127 2014-03-06 10:50:45 <sipa> RTFM :)
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1130 2014-03-06 10:53:51 <stonecoldpat> ah ok, thanks :)
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1133 2014-03-06 10:58:06 <hno> anton000, 519M	/srv/bitcoin/testnet3/
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1136 2014-03-06 11:00:23 <hno> anton000, or 485M if only counting blocks.
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1139 2014-03-06 11:03:16 <sheepman> when I run the gettxoutsetinfo what does the total_amount actually equate to? I'm confused.
1140 2014-03-06 11:03:59 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
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1143 2014-03-06 11:05:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: heh. I've 'instrumented' the binary to detect private key dependant branches... it appears to be free of them in a simple signing test, ... one I turned off asserts. :)
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1148 2014-03-06 11:09:32 <gmaxwell> hm. secp256k1_ecmult_gen->secp256k1_num_shift->__gmpn_rshift  has a branch.
1149 2014-03-06 11:11:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: num_gmp.h:246  data conditional branch there.
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1151 2014-03-06 11:11:40 <sipa> sheepman: the sum of the values of all unspent transaction outputs
1152 2014-03-06 11:12:05 <sipa> gmaxwell: oh at the low level i'm sure there are dependencies
1153 2014-03-06 11:12:14 <sheepman> sipa: Still above me I'm afraid, but I won't waste your time... I'll do some reading :) Thanks
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1156 2014-03-06 11:16:36 <sipa> sheepman: every transaction creates outputs (of a particular value, assigned to an address/script) and consumes older outputs created by previous transactions
1157 2014-03-06 11:17:04 <sheepman> i see
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1159 2014-03-06 11:18:16 <gmaxwell> sipa: in any case, I think thats all I'm seeing right now, but I might find more if I twiddle harder... I have valgrind doing this.
1160 2014-03-06 11:18:29 <sipa> gmaxwell: that's very useful :)
1161 2014-03-06 11:19:09 <gmaxwell> ah, got more in gmp.
1162 2014-03-06 11:19:19 <gmaxwell> secp256k1_num_mod_mul->secp256k1_num_mod->__gmpn_sub_n
1163 2014-03-06 11:19:34 <gmaxwell> some of these may actually be clear of the badness or uninteresting.
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1165 2014-03-06 11:20:27 <gmaxwell> in any case, I think I can add not too obstructive instrumentation to the code that makes it possible to use valgrind to measure this. :) won't replace performance measurement and review, but at least it should be helpful.
1166 2014-03-06 11:20:57 <sipa> i just implemented cache striping, but haven't pushed it
1167 2014-03-06 11:21:07 <gmaxwell> did it slow it down, or speed it up?
1168 2014-03-06 11:21:37 <sipa> didn't try
1169 2014-03-06 11:21:45 <sipa> i don't have good performance measurements for signing
1170 2014-03-06 11:22:29 <gmaxwell> I have a keygen benchmark here so I can try it later.
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1176 2014-03-06 11:28:13 <BabySuperman> how does someone not just listen for your proof of work and fake that they sent it?
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1191 2014-03-06 11:41:57 <airbreather> BabySuperman, your proof-of-work is only valid for the exact problem you're trying to solve, which includes a payment to yourself.  If someone tried to use your proof-of-work for a block that pays them instead, then other nodes will reject their block as invalid
1192 2014-03-06 11:43:24 <airbreather> thus the use of the term "proof"
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1214 2014-03-06 11:55:40 <chichov> is the transaction replacement mechanism not yet implemented?
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1234 2014-03-06 12:27:25 <venzen> hi there HeySteve
1235 2014-03-06 12:27:52 <venzen> wrong wondow...
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1249 2014-03-06 12:45:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|12:22:08 <antephialtic> yeah, I would only use shared servers for something low-value. Like say, trading magic the gathering cards.
1250 2014-03-06 12:45:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Apparently some MtG cards are actually quite valuable
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1252 2014-03-06 12:47:56 <anton000> @hno thnx!
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1293 2014-03-06 13:24:23 <edcba> I like when people speak to journalists and act surprised something they told finish in a newspaper...
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1297 2014-03-06 13:26:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|edcba: referring to Gavin?
1298 2014-03-06 13:27:05 <edcba> generalizing :)
1299 2014-03-06 13:27:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|He may not have realized or known what the article was
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1301 2014-03-06 13:27:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|For all we know the relevant questions were slipped into a more general discussion
1302 2014-03-06 13:27:52 <edcba> anyway the rule always has been : don't speak to journalists
1303 2014-03-06 13:27:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wait, this is -dev...
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1307 2014-03-06 13:30:55 <TD> edcba: i guess that would refer to satoshi himself :)
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1326 2014-03-06 13:45:14 <finway> So satoshi is back?
1327 2014-03-06 13:46:06 <anton000> lolololol
1328 2014-03-06 13:46:31 * SomeoneWeird facepalms
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1333 2014-03-06 13:50:53 <TD> what's up with martti saying the code uses "reverse polish notation". i hope that's a mental transcription error by the journo
1334 2014-03-06 13:51:20 <vegard> for the scripts, no?
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1339 2014-03-06 13:53:07 <emowataji> thinking of hungarian?
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1341 2014-03-06 13:53:24 <TD> yeah
1342 2014-03-06 13:53:28 <TD> he meant hungarian
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1344 2014-03-06 13:53:44 <vegard> wait... the scripts use reverse polish notation, don't they??
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1347 2014-03-06 13:54:36 <TD> oh ok it's something andresen said
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1349 2014-03-06 13:54:41 <TD> speak of the devil!
1350 2014-03-06 13:54:53 <TD> the quote was: "Satoshi's style of writing code was old-school. He used things like reverse Polish notation." which i guess refers to the c++
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1352 2014-03-06 13:55:52 <sipa> that should be hungarian, yeah
1353 2014-03-06 13:56:35 <edcba> yes i think it's hungarian because i don't really see when rpn is used
1354 2014-03-06 13:57:10 <vegard> I just said the scripts do...
1355 2014-03-06 13:57:37 <sipa> yes, scripts do, but i doubt that is what he's referring to
1356 2014-03-06 13:58:11 <edcba> scripts use rpn really ?
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1358 2014-03-06 13:58:23 <edcba> isn't that script << op << data1 << data2 ?
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1360 2014-03-06 13:58:45 <sipa> if you want to write 5 + 3 in Script, it's "5 3 OP_PLUS"
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1363 2014-03-06 13:59:53 <edcba> ok it's a stack but in code it's not really rpn iirc
1364 2014-03-06 14:00:35 <sipa> well rpn == stack based execution
1365 2014-03-06 14:01:03 <sipa> rpn is how you write things if they're to be executed on a stack machine
1366 2014-03-06 14:01:14 <sipa> saying that c++ code uses rpn makes no sense
1367 2014-03-06 14:01:29 <edcba> of course it does
1368 2014-03-06 14:01:49 <edcba> a = 3 + 4 is not same than a language using 3 4 + a =
1369 2014-03-06 14:01:53 <sipa> c++ uses infix operators, not rpn...
1370 2014-03-06 14:02:31 <TD> i always wondered if satoshi was retired. or maybe tenured.
1371 2014-03-06 14:02:45 <sipa> i'm not sure how to interpret gavin's tweet
1372 2014-03-06 14:02:48 <TD> the amount of time it needed and the style of code pointed to something like that
1373 2014-03-06 14:03:03 <TD> sipa: "i didn't know what the story was really about" i'd assume
1374 2014-03-06 14:03:19 <sipa> it may just mean "i wish they had left the guy alone", regardless of whether he is bitcoin's creator or not
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1376 2014-03-06 14:05:29 <TD> well, i think we'd all agree with that. though all the people freaking out about it seem to have overlooked the fact that there are lots of public people who control large amounts of bitcoin. if they fear for satoshi they should fear for those people too
1377 2014-03-06 14:05:46 <TD> frankly we need tamper-proof secure hardware wallets that do risk analysis of submitted transactions, yesterday.
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1379 2014-03-06 14:06:01 <TD> there are too many people who got too rich too fast. and i worry about exchange operators being extorted
1380 2014-03-06 14:06:17 <TD> Gemalto could clean up here
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1382 2014-03-06 14:06:26 <sipa> Gemalto?
1383 2014-03-06 14:09:03 <TD> they make the secure hardware chips used in credit cards and other things
1384 2014-03-06 14:09:14 <TD> AFAIK they are the world specialist at it. French company
1385 2014-03-06 14:09:29 <TD> secure tamper-proof chips for financial applications is right up their street
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1394 2014-03-06 14:12:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I just heard the Satoshi story on the radio news here
1395 2014-03-06 14:12:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The thing is that whether or not this is the same Satoshi, this is going to ruin his life
1396 2014-03-06 14:13:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or at the very least the next several months of it
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1446 2014-03-06 14:54:22 <gavinandresen> you can just ask me what I meant.... I meant publishing personal details about somebody who doesn't want them published is immoral.
1447 2014-03-06 14:56:14 <Apocalyptic> ?
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1449 2014-03-06 14:56:50 <sipa> gavinandresen: right, sometimes i forget you're here!
1450 2014-03-06 14:58:06 Starduster has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1451 2014-03-06 14:59:12 <_biO_> looks like it's really him too
1452 2014-03-06 14:59:16 <TD> i guess a lot of investigative journalism falls into that category
1453 2014-03-06 14:59:31 <Breign> i completely agree gavin (with your twitter statements)
1454 2014-03-06 14:59:39 <_biO_> his amazon reviews: http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/ATILATX3PEXZ4/ref=pdp_new_read_full_review_link?ie=UTF8&page=1&sort_by=MostRecentReview#R10NT4RRA3RYDA
1455 2014-03-06 14:59:42 <epscy> i don't know how you reconcile that view with free speech though
1456 2014-03-06 14:59:45 <_biO_> two spaces after periods, if you check the source
1457 2014-03-06 14:59:51 <epscy> but i guess this is OT
1458 2014-03-06 14:59:54 MaxSan has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1459 2014-03-06 15:00:23 <_biO_> poor guy =/
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1467 2014-03-06 15:04:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen: that's what I thought you meant.
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1476 2014-03-06 15:16:12 <super3> hello
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1479 2014-03-06 15:23:33 <stonecoldpat> its good to know that satoshi si a fan of danish butter cookies
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1486 2014-03-06 15:31:34 <Emcy> gavinandresen i like how they got you to confirm that if that guy is bitcoins satoshi then he probably still has the keys to that fortune
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1489 2014-03-06 15:32:01 <Emcy> that was pretty smooth of newsweek
1490 2014-03-06 15:32:11 <Emcy> that guy should probably think about leaving town
1491 2014-03-06 15:34:00 wateratosthenes has joined
1492 2014-03-06 15:34:15 <super3> Emcy, poor guy he is going to have a bad time until this blows over
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1522 2014-03-06 15:50:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|super3: Understatement of the month
1523 2014-03-06 15:50:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|This guy's life, whether or not he's the same Satoshi, is probably ruined
1524 2014-03-06 15:50:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(or at least the next several months of it)
1525 2014-03-06 15:50:29 <super3> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3747 <- can I get some ACKs or NACKs?
1526 2014-03-06 15:50:59 <super3> michagogo|cloud, Bitcoin Foundation to the rescue, or not...
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1531 2014-03-06 15:52:11 <super3> i think it would be a good idea to publically debunk it if he is not Satoshi
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1533 2014-03-06 15:52:43 <super3> its still going to be bad, but if it can be made less bad that would be ideal
1534 2014-03-06 15:55:02 <lechuga_> kind of a slimey thing to do
1535 2014-03-06 15:55:18 <The_Fly> super3: why bad? the debate has already turned against immoral journalism
1536 2014-03-06 15:55:39 ematiu has joined
1537 2014-03-06 15:56:06 <The_Fly> in the worst case this kind of irresponsibility could cost lives
1538 2014-03-06 15:56:13 <lnovy> Saying that he is the real satoshi is the only way he could prove he isn't :) so be cool
1539 2014-03-06 15:56:14 <helo> what "bad stuff" has happened to people previously identified as satoshi nakamoto?
1540 2014-03-06 15:56:39 <The_Fly> nothing but this article makes claims and quotes people to a degree futher than before
1541 2014-03-06 15:56:42 <The_Fly> doesn't it?
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1545 2014-03-06 15:57:17 <The_Fly> im not saying i believe either way whether they have the right guy or not, or that i care
1546 2014-03-06 15:57:56 <super3> journalistic ethics? whats that?
1547 2014-03-06 15:58:38 <super3> i like the spartacus approach. everyone you uses or develops for bitcoin is satoshi
1548 2014-03-06 15:59:13 deego` is now known as deego
1549 2014-03-06 15:59:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There's no real way he could prove he's not the Bitcoin Satoshi
1550 2014-03-06 15:59:28 Namworld has joined
1551 2014-03-06 15:59:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(he == the guy in California)
1552 2014-03-06 15:59:31 <jgarzik> indeed -- you cannot prove a negative
1553 2014-03-06 15:59:45 <jgarzik> Satoshi can positively prove his identity easily:  PGP signature or bitcoin ECDSA signature
1554 2014-03-06 15:59:49 ematiu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1555 2014-03-06 15:59:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Only the Bitcoin Satoshi could prove this guy isn't him
1556 2014-03-06 16:00:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And then only be revealing himself
1557 2014-03-06 16:00:13 <rdponticelli> journalistic ethics? whats that? <-- An oxymoron?
1558 2014-03-06 16:00:13 gvrooyen has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1559 2014-03-06 16:00:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|by*
1560 2014-03-06 16:00:22 ematiu has joined
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1562 2014-03-06 16:03:10 <The_Fly> super3: +1 to spartacus approach
1563 2014-03-06 16:03:20 MaxSan has joined
1564 2014-03-06 16:03:34 <The_Fly> tbh, i find it odd that someone who worked in security would "go silent" immediately when pressed on bitcoin, surely you'd continue corrospondence
1565 2014-03-06 16:03:42 <The_Fly> and lead them off the scent
1566 2014-03-06 16:04:00 <The_Fly> instead of making an emotional reaction that ultimately blows your cover
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1569 2014-03-06 16:06:24 <vegard> if satoshi doesn't intend to spend his bitcoins, why not make them unspendable before retiring?
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1572 2014-03-06 16:06:56 <Denim-jdev> because satoshi doesn't control what bitcoins are spendable
1573 2014-03-06 16:07:07 <Denim-jdev> or do you mean
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1576 2014-03-06 16:07:15 <Denim-jdev> sending them to a address nobody has the keys to
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1578 2014-03-06 16:07:26 <wbaw> the ones he's supposed to control
1579 2014-03-06 16:07:55 t7 has joined
1580 2014-03-06 16:08:02 <wbaw> maybe he's already lost access, or they're not his bitcoins, but he can't prove it
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1582 2014-03-06 16:08:39 <wbaw> has there been any activity on these 'satoshi' wallets, or any real proof they're his?
1583 2014-03-06 16:08:39 pierreatwork has joined
1584 2014-03-06 16:08:49 <vegard> I mean provably unspendable.
1585 2014-03-06 16:09:03 <Denim-jdev> no, the coins from the first year or so are unspent
1586 2014-03-06 16:09:13 <super3> i like to thing that he is working on the "next big thing"
1587 2014-03-06 16:09:18 <super3> think*
1588 2014-03-06 16:09:30 aegis has joined
1589 2014-03-06 16:09:31 StarenseN has joined
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1591 2014-03-06 16:09:43 <t7> a new decentralized ordering algorithm :)
1592 2014-03-06 16:09:44 <wbaw> vegard, if he's already made them unspendable in an unprovable way
1593 2014-03-06 16:09:47 leafing has joined
1594 2014-03-06 16:09:54 <wbaw> then he's in trouble maybe
1595 2014-03-06 16:10:34 viic has joined
1596 2014-03-06 16:11:16 <wbaw> i hope nothing bad happens to him
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1598 2014-03-06 16:11:28 <lnovy> if he did denied he's the real one, it would be worse for him and for his family...
1599 2014-03-06 16:11:44 <epscy> lnovy: i don't agree
1600 2014-03-06 16:12:02 <epscy> lnovy: if he denied it and it wasn't him then yeah maybe
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1603 2014-03-06 16:12:36 <wbaw> i don't think everybody is a gangster, i think he'll be left alone except for journos & they'll be bored quick
1604 2014-03-06 16:12:40 <lnovy> epscy: he it was him, he would keep denying also
1605 2014-03-06 16:12:50 <super3> i mean if i was him and was discovered i would probably send most of my coins to bitcoin eater
1606 2014-03-06 16:12:54 <Denim-jdev> I think you understimate the draw of $400m in untraceable currency
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1608 2014-03-06 16:13:02 <lnovy> epscy: because the danger that anonymity was suppose to mitigate is not gone
1609 2014-03-06 16:13:09 <wumpus> it's far from untracable
1610 2014-03-06 16:13:09 <wbaw> it's clearly not untraceable though
1611 2014-03-06 16:13:32 <Denim-jdev> eh, anyone dedicated could sell it off slowly in an untraceable way
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1613 2014-03-06 16:14:12 <wbaw> and there would be no police? satoshi wouldn't move it first?
1614 2014-03-06 16:14:41 <Denim-jdev> the idea is, hold satoshi at gunpoint, get him to send coins to your address, run away
1615 2014-03-06 16:14:45 <Denim-jdev> obviously without getting caught
1616 2014-03-06 16:14:50 <maaku> wbaw: that's incredibly naive
1617 2014-03-06 16:15:02 <wbaw> last i heard the usa wasn't still in the wild west days
1618 2014-03-06 16:15:02 <wumpus> btw, this is not -dev discussion
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1620 2014-03-06 16:15:09 <maaku> there are probably thugs on planes heading to so cal right now
1621 2014-03-06 16:15:12 <Denim-jdev> yea, sorry
1622 2014-03-06 16:15:20 <wbaw> sorry, wrong channel
1623 2014-03-06 16:15:24 <lnovy> it might be just a provocation, because only the real satoshi is potentialy able to disprove this fool to protect him... which he might do if he can, because the "fake" one did everything he could to disprove he is the real one
1624 2014-03-06 16:15:41 <lnovy> sorry
1625 2014-03-06 16:15:53 * maaku lets lnovy borrow his tin foil hat
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1627 2014-03-06 16:16:32 * lnovy takes off his collander, puts on the hat and puts on the collander back over the top of it
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1631 2014-03-06 16:19:34 <lechuga_> crazy my hometown got mentioned in the article too
1632 2014-03-06 16:19:47 <lechuga_> you dont see cherry hill, nj in the media much
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1652 2014-03-06 16:34:56 <The_Fly> vegard: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_burn
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1654 2014-03-06 16:35:44 <Ademan> So after leaving this running all night, I found another block blockchain.info screwed up
1655 2014-03-06 16:35:53 <Ademan> Height: 288294 Block 00000000000000010561a54552b16ac2c629f5d13b2b99892c4da41b374d07b6 TX Count bitcoind: 693 bci: 554
1656 2014-03-06 16:36:06 <jcorgan> Ademan: very interesting
1657 2014-03-06 16:36:25 <Ademan> plus the one we already knew about: Height: 288788 Block 00000000000000010a3cf6ac89eda17dad289a4e48986f711f594c732ae3145c TX Count bitcoind: 889 bci: 664
1658 2014-03-06 16:36:25 <The_Fly> blockchain need to do a full reindex?? :P
1659 2014-03-06 16:36:46 <jcorgan> are the merkle roots in agreement?
1660 2014-03-06 16:37:46 <Ademan> didn't actually check but since the whole block hash is the same it ought to be right?
1661 2014-03-06 16:38:28 <jcorgan> it would point to whether bc.i is "ingesting" blocks and just failing to import all the txes
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1663 2014-03-06 16:39:26 <jcorgan> if the merkle roots match, then it looks like when bc.i gets a block, they import it into their database correctly, except they stop processing transactions in the block before they should for some reason
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1666 2014-03-06 16:40:19 <jcorgan> it would also be interesting to see how they display transactions that have txins spending txouts from prior transactions they are missing
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1668 2014-03-06 16:40:40 <Ademan> gmaxwell has an example of that I believe
1669 2014-03-06 16:40:44 <dexX7> Ademan: good finding!
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1671 2014-03-06 16:40:59 <Ademan> dexX7: thanks
1672 2014-03-06 16:41:26 justanotheruser is now known as just[dead]
1673 2014-03-06 16:42:34 <dexX7> 288788 was fixed on bci
1674 2014-03-06 16:43:08 <Ademan> oh interesting
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1676 2014-03-06 16:43:31 <Ademan> wonder if they're rebuilding their db
1677 2014-03-06 16:43:48 <dexX7> but archived: http://pastebin.com/JETxQHd6 (bci), http://pastebin.com/Mh4RD9JH (bitcoind), http://pastebin.com/gsa0c3iQ (diff)
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1680 2014-03-06 16:46:32 <Ademan> also I have no reason to believe my list of screwed up blocks is complete, I had a one second sleep in my loop to make sure i didn't piss off blockchain.info
1681 2014-03-06 16:47:18 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1682 2014-03-06 16:47:22 <Ademan> btw does bitcoin-qt gracefully close when closed by kill -2 ?
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1686 2014-03-06 16:47:52 <Ademan> I believe I closed it in the middle of an rpc call and now there's no window, but it's still running (not zombied though)
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1688 2014-03-06 16:48:21 <jcorgan> that would be an interesting cross-check to have--every time a new block comes in to bitcoind, pull that hash from bc.i and compare.  if there is a mismatch, or also if bc.i has a block you don't or vice versa, then sound red alert.  or at least log it.
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1695 2014-03-06 16:49:14 <Ademan> blockchain.info ought to be doing this :-p
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1699 2014-03-06 16:49:58 <dexX7> jcorgan: the hashes are identical on those "strange blocks"
1700 2014-03-06 16:50:35 <dexX7> also the root, sum of fee etc., there are only the transactions missing
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1702 2014-03-06 16:50:52 <vegard> ademan: block 00000000000000010a3cf6ac89eda17dad289a4e48986f711f594c732ae3145c says 889 on bci for me
1703 2014-03-06 16:51:06 <vegard> oh, you noticed. ok
1704 2014-03-06 16:51:09 <Ademan> vegard: see dexX7's comment above
1705 2014-03-06 16:51:16 <Ademan> yeah, it was wrong last night heh
1706 2014-03-06 16:51:25 giustoXricordarv has joined
1707 2014-03-06 16:51:26 <dexX7> vegard: the block was fixed by bc.info
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1722 2014-03-06 16:59:06 <Ademan> anyone know if bitcoin-qt will gracefully exit from kill -{2,3,15} ?
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1726 2014-03-06 17:05:56 <TD> hello again
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1785 2014-03-06 17:46:55 <chichov> does anyone know what tool was used to create this OP_CHECKSIG diagram? https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png
1786 2014-03-06 17:46:58 Michail1 has joined
1787 2014-03-06 17:47:33 <lnovy> chichov: there seems to be nothing dia could not do... or inkscape...
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1790 2014-03-06 17:49:27 BCB is now known as Satoshi_Nakamoto
1791 2014-03-06 17:49:28 <paveljanik> $ identify -verbose 1.png  | grep Software
1792 2014-03-06 17:49:28 <paveljanik>     Software: www.inkscape.org
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1794 2014-03-06 17:49:41 Satoshi_Nakamoto is now known as BCB
1795 2014-03-06 17:49:51 <lnovy> paveljanik: +1
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1822 2014-03-06 18:08:40 <Phoebus> I'm appalled by the newsweek article, putting satoshi, if that's the one - at risk. Geez... and wtf.
1823 2014-03-06 18:09:17 <Diablo-D3> Phoebus: you should be appalled because its not even real
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1826 2014-03-06 18:09:26 <Diablo-D3> it looks like its just some attack ad by the banking industry
1827 2014-03-06 18:09:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Phoebus: It *is* putting him at risk
1828 2014-03-06 18:09:30 <Diablo-D3> just ignore it and move on
1829 2014-03-06 18:09:30 <Phoebus> Diablo-D3, I hope it's not.
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1831 2014-03-06 18:09:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Even if it isn't the Bitcoin Satoshi
1832 2014-03-06 18:09:46 <john5223> so what do you guys think about the satoshi article? bunch of trolls in the other channel
1833 2014-03-06 18:09:52 <john5223> is it real?
1834 2014-03-06 18:09:56 <john5223> or a farce
1835 2014-03-06 18:09:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Probably ruining his life, or at least the next several months of it
1836 2014-03-06 18:09:58 <sipa> maybe, maybe not
1837 2014-03-06 18:10:01 <Phoebus> It is sad, real or not.
1838 2014-03-06 18:10:05 <sipa> in any case, let's leave him alone
1839 2014-03-06 18:10:10 <Diablo-D3> john5223: bitcoin was designed by a group of people
1840 2014-03-06 18:10:10 <Phoebus> ^
1841 2014-03-06 18:10:13 <k9quaint> its karma for not commenting his code
1842 2014-03-06 18:10:19 <chichov> paveljanik: thanks
1843 2014-03-06 18:10:39 <john5223> thus his comment...its not in my hands anymore
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1846 2014-03-06 18:11:06 <john5223> still have to have a creator though....or did this "group" take on the name satoshi?
1847 2014-03-06 18:11:06 <TD> i found some of the comments funny. "Wait ... he passed on the project? SO THERE ARE PEOPLE IN CHARGE AFTER ALL!?!?"
1848 2014-03-06 18:12:21 leafing has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1849 2014-03-06 18:12:28 <sipa> john5223: maybe
1850 2014-03-06 18:12:40 <Diablo-D3> TD: yeah its like, everyone forgot about poor gavin
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1853 2014-03-06 18:13:08 <john5223> lol
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1855 2014-03-06 18:13:16 <john5223> vague answers everywhere
1856 2014-03-06 18:13:40 <john5223> what does gmaxwell think?  he always seems to be pretty on par
1857 2014-03-06 18:13:52 <sipa> john5223: dude, please stop
1858 2014-03-06 18:13:59 <sipa> we don't know
1859 2014-03-06 18:14:03 <Diablo-D3> yeah you're kind of annoying people bro
1860 2014-03-06 18:14:10 <aceat64> he's probably been asked about Bitcoin a bunch of times by his family and acquaintances, I'm not surprised he stopped talking when the reporter mentioned Bitcoin in e-mail
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1862 2014-03-06 18:14:49 <sipa> let's move all satoshi related discussion to #bitcoin please?
1863 2014-03-06 18:14:49 <john5223> ha...bunch of dicks everywhere... simple questions... simple answers
1864 2014-03-06 18:14:50 <aceat64> his response in person (if correctly reported) seems more like a generic answer for questions about top-secret project
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1866 2014-03-06 18:15:00 <john5223> peace
1867 2014-03-06 18:15:02 <aceat64> sipa: sorry, I'm done
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1872 2014-03-06 18:16:38 <k9quaint> sipa knows
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1875 2014-03-06 18:17:45 <Phoebus> Yeah guys just take it there, just wanted to express my disgust, onwards now.
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1880 2014-03-06 18:19:58 <Logicwax> man....shoulda went with the aliens conspiracy (blockchain concept was given to us by aliens!!!)
1881 2014-03-06 18:20:03 <Logicwax> that way, no one gets bothered
1882 2014-03-06 18:20:12 <Logicwax> gov learned this 50+ years ago
1883 2014-03-06 18:21:08 <Logicwax> with decentralized autonomous corps/orgs and ethereum and all that, people would claim it was software social cancer to inslave us all
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1900 2014-03-06 18:28:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uh, wtf?
1901 2014-03-06 18:28:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|http://i.imgur.com/6d0qTwg.png
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1905 2014-03-06 18:31:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Clicked OK, now it's giving me http://i.imgur.com/neyw08g.png
1906 2014-03-06 18:31:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|:-/
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1909 2014-03-06 18:32:18 <gmaxwell> First time I've seen someone report hitting that code path.
1910 2014-03-06 18:33:18 <sipa> same
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1913 2014-03-06 18:34:31 <dexX7> Ademan: fyi: between block 285557 and 289226 were only 3 missmatches (288294, 288788, 289100)
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1918 2014-03-06 18:36:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I mean, it's just testnet
1919 2014-03-06 18:36:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But I wonder what might have caused that
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1921 2014-03-06 18:36:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't *think* I've been messing with it...
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1934 2014-03-06 18:46:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If anyone wants to take a look and see what's going on, you can grab the (drained) wallet at http://wallet.michagogo.cadoth.net
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1939 2014-03-06 18:51:32 <TD> somebody i never heard of signed my pgp key
1940 2014-03-06 18:52:12 <gmaxwell> It happens.
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2009 2014-03-06 19:38:53 <shamoon> are there any clients that allow for multiple wallets and API access (RPC)?
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2036 2014-03-06 19:57:51 <jtimon> what's the difference between testnet v3 and regression testnet?
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2072 2014-03-06 20:13:12 <bitblender> What is the correct word to call newly mined coins?
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2074 2014-03-06 20:14:02 <vegard> immature coins, maybe?
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2077 2014-03-06 20:15:41 <bitblender> naa.. there is a much cooler word for it :)
2078 2014-03-06 20:16:01 <TD> they're immature if they're <100 blocks old
2079 2014-03-06 20:16:16 <bitblender> hmm isnt it coinbase or something?
2080 2014-03-06 20:16:31 <bitblender> and then this company  took the same name, just like blockchain
2081 2014-03-06 20:16:56 <bitblender> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Coinbase
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2141 2014-03-06 20:49:48 <BabySuperman> How does someone not listen for "proofs of work" and just send them out as their own?
2142 2014-03-06 20:50:18 <gmaxwell> And what do you think they'd accomplish by doing that?
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2144 2014-03-06 20:51:04 <dexX7> is the position of a transaction within a block always the same for all users?
2145 2014-03-06 20:51:35 <TD> yes
2146 2014-03-06 20:51:46 <gmaxwell> If you mean a single specific block (e.g. same block hash)
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2148 2014-03-06 20:52:16 <gmaxwell> if there is a block race at a given height, for example, the different blocks may have transactions in different orders.
2149 2014-03-06 20:54:59 <TD> sigh. we need easier ways to sell bitcoins for fiat
2150 2014-03-06 20:55:18 <TD> just tried to do an international payment with bitcoin to a guy who knows about it and could easily use it, but we ended up with transferwise
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2153 2014-03-06 20:55:26 <TD> too much hassle for him to sell (in the bay aera)
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2158 2014-03-06 20:57:31 <jtimon> bitblender maybe they get bad publicity when people hear that "you must wait 100 blocks to be able to spend coinbase transactions"?
2159 2014-03-06 20:57:41 viic has joined
2160 2014-03-06 20:58:15 <dexX7> ty that helps
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2166 2014-03-06 21:00:11 <jtimon> so I'm trying to build a "dummynet" mode for bitcoin in which there's no proof of work at all, should my DummyNetParams class extend CRegTestParams or CTestNetParams ?
2167 2014-03-06 21:00:35 <gmaxwell> jtimon: why dummynet over regtest?
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2169 2014-03-06 21:01:15 <jtimon> regtest does that? that's why I was asking for the differences between regtest and testnet
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2173 2014-03-06 21:05:35 <TD> yes that's the point of regtest
2174 2014-03-06 21:05:36 <TD> instant blocks
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2177 2014-03-06 21:07:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jtimon: In fact, in regtest mode you can use `setgenerate true <count>` to mine that many blocks and then stop
2178 2014-03-06 21:07:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(IIRC)
2179 2014-03-06 21:07:21 <TD> indeed
2180 2014-03-06 21:07:44 <jtimon> thank you, then dummynet is definitely not needed
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2182 2014-03-06 21:07:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's not that it's not needed
2183 2014-03-06 21:08:00 <jcorgan> TD: bay area as San Francisco?
2184 2014-03-06 21:08:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Rather, it already exists :-P
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2186 2014-03-06 21:08:11 <TD> yes
2187 2014-03-06 21:08:18 <jtimon> well, yes, indeed
2188 2014-03-06 21:08:44 <jcorgan> depending on the amount of bitcoin and price, i could do it, PM me
2189 2014-03-06 21:08:52 <TD> jcorgan: he doesn't really care about bitcoin or anything. he just knows about it. so he'd need to use localbitcoins and then it's a PITA, also their website confused him into thinking he'd need min deposits and the like
2190 2014-03-06 21:09:04 <TD> jcorgan: well he prefers transferwise. that way he gets a bank transfer and there's no messing with random people
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2192 2014-03-06 21:09:17 <jcorgan> yeah, i'm pretty random :)
2193 2014-03-06 21:09:27 <TD> what i really need is a service in the USA that lets me type in his account number, gives me a bitcoin address, and auto-sells then does the wire transfer to his account
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2195 2014-03-06 21:10:13 <TD> i.e. not an exchange or anything that you have to sign up for. just a one-way proxy
2196 2014-03-06 21:10:20 <TD> (like transferwise in fact)
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2199 2014-03-06 21:11:42 <jcorgan> well, i'd be willing to have you send me the btc and i give him the cash, but that involves a level of trust on both your parts :)
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2201 2014-03-06 21:12:30 <The_Fly> in custom wallet software do I have to make this check "For each input, if the referenced output transaction is coinbase (i.e. only 1 input, with hash=0, n=-1), it must have at least COINBASE_MATURITY (100) confirmations; else reject this transaction" or is this handled by bitcoind
2202 2014-03-06 21:12:34 LarsLarsen has joined
2203 2014-03-06 21:12:37 <jcorgan> (you and i did meet in person once, but you may not recall it)
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2205 2014-03-06 21:13:10 <The_Fly> just wondering if a tx will be relayed with immature coins (i took a quick scroll up and saw that it was being discussed, i wanted to ask about this recently)
2206 2014-03-06 21:13:14 <TD> i meant - random for him :)
2207 2014-03-06 21:13:37 <TD> The_Fly: it will not. you should not attempt to spend them
2208 2014-03-06 21:14:01 <The_Fly> TD: thanks, i wont (heh unlikely to have that much hashing power behind me any time soom)
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2210 2014-03-06 21:14:13 <The_Fly> more just thinking along the lines of attacks which could leverage this
2211 2014-03-06 21:14:21 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: no, they won't be. They're invalid.
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2213 2014-03-06 21:14:35 <The_Fly> thanks TD, thanks gmaxwell
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2222 2014-03-06 21:18:27 <The_Fly> did you ever find that computer vision/computational photography stuff gmaxwell? i remember you said you had some old stuff lying around, i was intersted to take a look. I realise is OT so that's all i'll ask here. i cant remember specifically what the project was but nevermind :)
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2235 2014-03-06 21:29:03 <The_Fly> i think we were talking dual photography and lightfields, not sure
2236 2014-03-06 21:29:08 <The_Fly> but anyway thanks for answering, praise satoshi
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2280 2014-03-06 22:15:40 <jtimon> mhhmm, why does my CPU go crazy when I do bitcoin-qt -regtest -gen=1 ? wasn't regtest supposed to be zero pow?
2281 2014-03-06 22:15:59 <sipa> no
2282 2014-03-06 22:16:09 <sipa> it has the same rules as mainnet
2283 2014-03-06 22:16:20 <sipa> except it starts at lower difficulty
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2285 2014-03-06 22:16:33 <sipa> and retargets every 150 blocks
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2287 2014-03-06 22:16:48 <TD> don't use -gen=1
2288 2014-03-06 22:16:53 <TD> use "setgenerate true"
2289 2014-03-06 22:17:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jtimon: Yeah, -gen=1 will generate blocks non-stop
2290 2014-03-06 22:17:03 <TD> the latter stops mining after finding a block
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2292 2014-03-06 22:17:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jtimon: What's your block count at? :-P
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2294 2014-03-06 22:18:06 <jtimon> I'm changing pchMessageStart but I get peers again and tries to synchronize so I'm confused
2295 2014-03-06 22:18:41 <jtimon> also I don't see fakecoins on the wallet, which is what I want
2296 2014-03-06 22:18:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jtimon: getblockcount
2297 2014-03-06 22:19:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Do you have at least 100 blocks?
2298 2014-03-06 22:19:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If not, the coins won't be mature
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2300 2014-03-06 22:20:00 <jtimon> the blockcount rises fast but maybe I'm synchronizing
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2302 2014-03-06 22:20:37 <sipa> you get peers as in listed in getpeerinfo?
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2305 2014-03-06 22:21:01 <sipa> those may just be connections before the first message is exchanged
2306 2014-03-06 22:21:12 <sipa> at which point they get disconnected
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2312 2014-03-06 22:23:30 <jtimon> oh, I was just looking at bitcoin-qt's little peers symbol, how do I check the accepted peers?
2313 2014-03-06 22:23:44 <jtimon> getpeerinfo?
2314 2014-03-06 22:24:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|yes
2315 2014-03-06 22:24:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jtimon: I believe if you start with both regtest and gen set to 1, you'll generate blocks as fast as your computer can create and store them
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2317 2014-03-06 22:25:25 <sipa> yup
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2321 2014-03-06 22:25:39 <jtimon> then it seems I'm extremely unlucky choosing values for pchMessageStart to be alone
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2323 2014-03-06 22:26:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why mess with pchMessageStart? Just use -connects
2324 2014-03-06 22:26:18 <sipa> as i said, you likely just see peers connected and being disconnected
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2331 2014-03-06 22:29:52 <BabySuperman> gmaxwell, my thinking is someone can just listen for proof of works to be broadcasted and then send them first to get the shares on a mining pool? I'm just trying to understand how this is prevented :)
2332 2014-03-06 22:30:10 <jtimon> I get http://pastebin.com/srTeVF8H after bitcoin-qt -regtest -connects -gen=1 and getpeersinfo on the console
2333 2014-03-06 22:30:25 <gmaxwell> BabySuperman: How would you prevent it?
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2335 2014-03-06 22:31:36 <BabySuperman> gmaxwell, i have no idea, I don't have a strong understanding of how the server receive these requests, if they are even broadcasted or just sent straight to the server... I don't understand
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2337 2014-03-06 22:32:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BabySuperman: When you have PoW, you're working on a specific block
2338 2014-03-06 22:32:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you were to change the block or share to pay yourself, the hash would change
2339 2014-03-06 22:32:43 <gmaxwell> BabySuperman: so head on over to #bitcoin and start asking for some pointers to basic materials... sounds like you also need to learn a bunch of background.
2340 2014-03-06 22:33:16 <BabySuperman> Err, I've read the whole white paper and taken pages and pages of notes
2341 2014-03-06 22:33:33 <sipa> the white paper explains the basic model
2342 2014-03-06 22:33:34 <BabySuperman> I'm talking about mining pools and doing partial work
2343 2014-03-06 22:33:41 <sipa> but very little implementation details
2344 2014-03-06 22:33:45 <BabySuperman> sorry if I'm not being clear :)
2345 2014-03-06 22:33:47 <jtimon> maybe they're getting disconnected as sipa says, I'll test more
2346 2014-03-06 22:34:06 <sipa> jtimon: getpeerinfo says how long you're connected afaik
2347 2014-03-06 22:34:45 <maaku> how do you generate bitcoin_en.ts?
2348 2014-03-06 22:35:09 <sipa> there is some tool for that
2349 2014-03-06 22:35:16 <jtimon> "conntime" : 1394144810, ?
2350 2014-03-06 22:35:17 <vegard> BabySuperman: the proof of work is valid only for a specific block header that includes the transaction hash of the mining reward... so if you try to send the reward to yourself, it requires a different nonce (proof of work)
2351 2014-03-06 22:35:39 <sipa> jtimon: yes, that the unix timestamp of the initial connection afaik
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2355 2014-03-06 22:36:29 <BabySuperman> vegard, maybe I don't understand how mining pools work? How do you prove you've done 1% of the work to find the 1 nonce that solves that block?
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2357 2014-03-06 22:37:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|maaku: Something having to do with transifex
2358 2014-03-06 22:37:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BabySuperman: By sending the pool shares that are almost valid blocks
2359 2014-03-06 22:37:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(and by "almost" I mean billions of times less PoW than actual valid blocks...)
2360 2014-03-06 22:37:58 <sipa> BabySuperman: yoy di not prove a % of work
2361 2014-03-06 22:38:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, it's not exactly a %
2362 2014-03-06 22:38:12 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: ok, let me rephrase - how do you regenerate the base file transifex uses? i thought that was bitcoin_en.ts (the english file)
2363 2014-03-06 22:38:14 <sipa> BabySuperman: you prove you solved a block that was 1% as hard as a real one
2364 2014-03-06 22:38:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: much less, though
2365 2014-03-06 22:38:28 <BabySuperman> goooootcha, that makes more sense
2366 2014-03-06 22:38:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;bc,stats
2367 2014-03-06 22:38:34 <gribble> Current Blocks: 289263 | Current Difficulty: 3.81572379881463E9 | Next Difficulty At Block: 290303 | Next Difficulty In: 1040 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 6 hours, 21 minutes, and 41 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 4029125549.23 | Estimated Percent Change: 5.59269
2368 2014-03-06 22:38:34 <BabySuperman> ty guys :)
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2372 2014-03-06 22:38:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|More like 0.00000001% as hard as solving a block
2373 2014-03-06 22:39:05 <sipa> maaku: diapolo or wumpus know
2374 2014-03-06 22:39:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(there may be an extra 0 in there)
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2377 2014-03-06 22:39:43 <sipa> two, actually
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2390 2014-03-06 22:50:15 <nsh> is the bitcoind alert system still keyed to satoshi's PGP?
2391 2014-03-06 22:50:43 <sipa> PGP has nothing to do with it
2392 2014-03-06 22:50:51 <nsh> oh, my bad
2393 2014-03-06 22:50:54 <sipa> but there is an alert key, which a few people have
2394 2014-03-06 22:50:57 <sipa> including gavin
2395 2014-03-06 22:51:00 <sipa> and satoshi
2396 2014-03-06 22:51:09 <nsh> right
2397 2014-03-06 22:51:24 <tommygunner> what is the alert for?
2398 2014-03-06 22:51:40 <sipa> warning messages in emergencies
2399 2014-03-06 22:52:23 <nsh> (i was toying with the idea of playing a joke on stupid journalists that the bitcoind project was to be sunsetted at the start of april on account of "very poor form" in regards to developer privacy)
2400 2014-03-06 22:52:44 <sipa> ha, "start of april"
2401 2014-03-06 22:52:48 <nsh> :)
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2403 2014-03-06 22:53:23 <nsh> actually, i might draft a BIP that checks for newsweek cookies and deletes wallet.dat if they're found
2404 2014-03-06 22:53:56 <tommygunner> just send the balance to the fbi
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2407 2014-03-06 22:54:52 <sipa> see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3152
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2409 2014-03-06 22:55:14 <nsh> haha, nice
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2412 2014-03-06 22:58:45 <BabySuperman> sipa, the alert/warning system was apparently removed?
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2414 2014-03-06 22:59:08 <sipa> BabySuperman: it was not
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2416 2014-03-06 22:59:26 <BabySuperman> are you sure?
2417 2014-03-06 22:59:29 <sipa> yrd
2418 2014-03-06 22:59:30 <sipa> yes
2419 2014-03-06 22:59:35 <BabySuperman> can you point me to where?
2420 2014-03-06 22:59:50 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/alert.cpp
2421 2014-03-06 23:00:11 <BabySuperman> I see that, but where is it referenced?
2422 2014-03-06 23:00:19 <BabySuperman> could just be cruft?
2423 2014-03-06 23:00:29 <BabySuperman> https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/583/what-is-the-alert-system-in-the-bitcoin-protocol-how-does-it-work
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2425 2014-03-06 23:01:35 <vegard> what are you talking about.
2426 2014-03-06 23:01:43 <sipa> BabySuperman: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L3846
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2428 2014-03-06 23:02:42 <BabySuperman> thank you :) so what was it removed from -- the bitcoin client? it remains on nodes/servers?
2429 2014-03-06 23:02:48 <sipa> the alert system was not removed
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2431 2014-03-06 23:02:58 <sipa> only the related safe mode
2432 2014-03-06 23:03:09 <sipa> where an alert can remove the ability to send transactions
2433 2014-03-06 23:03:14 <BabySuperman> ahhhh
2434 2014-03-06 23:03:29 <BabySuperman> so you can receive some alert "warning you should probably stop everything" but it won't automatically lock you out?
2435 2014-03-06 23:03:34 <sipa> indeed
2436 2014-03-06 23:03:37 <sipa> actually, safe mode still exists
2437 2014-03-06 23:03:38 <BabySuperman> i seeeeeeee
2438 2014-03-06 23:03:46 <sipa> it just can't be triggered through an alert anymore
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2441 2014-03-06 23:04:00 <sipa> it only triggers in case exceptionally weird block chain states are seen
2442 2014-03-06 23:04:31 <BabySuperman> gotcha, makes me more confident, ty :)
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