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  40 2014-03-08 00:30:48 <TheButterZone> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=506172.0;topicseen "Help me with a bug in c++ software i'm coding and i'll give you 0.2btc."
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  59 2014-03-08 00:45:55 <vegard> did you try ##c++
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  61 2014-03-08 00:47:54 <shadders_> gmaxwell: you around?  Been making some notes on coinbase only mining and come across a potential showstopper issue.
  62 2014-03-08 00:48:14 <gmaxwell> shadders_: hm?
  63 2014-03-08 00:48:21 <gmaxwell> (are you stuck on fees?)
  64 2014-03-08 00:48:36 <shadders_> Just thinking about what a pool will need to validate a share from a miner
  65 2014-03-08 00:48:49 <Luke-Jr> shadders_: did you read BIP 23? :P
  66 2014-03-08 00:48:57 <shadders_> Aside from nonces and all the usual stuff.
  67 2014-03-08 00:49:41 <gmaxwell> They don't— except just as a sanity check, in which case they can ask for whole blocks on the first share.  The reason they don't generally is that _intentionally_ sending an invalid block is equivilent to a block withholding attack, which already only takes like a few characters changed in most mining code.
  68 2014-03-08 00:50:07 <gmaxwell> (actually its somewhat less bad than block withholding, since block withholding is fundimentally undetectable.)
  69 2014-03-08 00:50:07 <shadders_> If they select their own txs the pool will need at minimum the merkle root of the tx list.  at maximum the full list of txs (we can't gauruntee the pool has seen them all)
  70 2014-03-08 00:50:36 <Luke-Jr> shadders_: merkle branches work
  71 2014-03-08 00:50:39 <Luke-Jr> with proposals
  72 2014-03-08 00:50:49 <TheButterZone> vegard: yeah, no response yet
  73 2014-03-08 00:50:53 <gmaxwell> shadders_: the pool never needs to see all the trasnactions though it does need the one brach to verify the coinbase.
  74 2014-03-08 00:50:53 <Luke-Jr> welll, "are sufficient in theroy"
  75 2014-03-08 00:50:55 <shadders_> if the pool see's the txs.  They have the opportunity to reject the shares if they don't like what's included...
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  77 2014-03-08 00:51:12 <Luke-Jr> shadders_: don't use those pools
  78 2014-03-08 00:51:17 <gmaxwell> shadders_: but thats not their business...
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  81 2014-03-08 00:51:34 <gmaxwell> You're complaining that adding centeralization adds bandwidth there. :P
  82 2014-03-08 00:51:44 <gmaxwell> I mean, you can send it all it just takes more bandwidth.
  83 2014-03-08 00:52:04 <shadders_> If they don't see the tx's (merkle only) the pool can't be sure the block isn't bogus.  either deliberately, or because they have a bad implementation
  84 2014-03-08 00:52:20 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: someone at the conference had this idea to use a zero-knowledge proof - but not sure it's worth it
  85 2014-03-08 00:52:28 <gmaxwell> I'm sure it's not worth it.
  86 2014-03-08 00:52:37 <gmaxwell> shadders_: I answered deliberately bogus above.
  87 2014-03-08 00:52:55 <shadders_> Luke-Jr: I am considering a scenario where pool turns rogue.
  88 2014-03-08 00:53:04 <gmaxwell> It's precisely equal to a withholding attack which is fundimentally impossible to prevent in the bitcoin protocol today, and only takes like a one line change.
  89 2014-03-08 00:53:13 <Luke-Jr> shadders_: a rogue pool will just claim to accept shares and never pay
  90 2014-03-08 00:53:42 <gmaxwell> As far as bad implementation, sure, the pool should ask miners to return the whole block intermittantly to detect misconfiguration.
  91 2014-03-08 00:53:47 <shadders_> Luke-Jr: No I mean if a few pools got together for a 51% attack.
  92 2014-03-08 00:54:00 <gmaxwell> shadders_: I'm not sure what you're saying there
  93 2014-03-08 00:54:02 <Luke-Jr> shadders_: pools can't 51% if they aren't selecting transactions
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  96 2014-03-08 00:54:46 <shadders_> if they can see transactions in a share and reject shares on that basis they are still effectively selecting transactions
  97 2014-03-08 00:55:17 <shadders_> My preference is client sends merkle only because of that ^
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  99 2014-03-08 00:55:37 <gmaxwell> shadders_: not unless people actually respond in a way other than failing over to another pool/ solo when their pool starts rejecting shares.
 100 2014-03-08 00:55:56 <shadders_> gmaxwell: intermittent full block validation is probably the answer...
 101 2014-03-08 00:56:15 <gmaxwell> and sure normally most of the time it should be just sending the branch for bandwidth reasons, I do think sampling makes sense for misconfiguration... and I don't think that creates much exposure for censorship.
 102 2014-03-08 00:56:26 <gmaxwell> man, and I thought you were going to complain about the fee problem. :)
 103 2014-03-08 00:56:52 <shadders_> no I haven't got far enough to think about fees yet... Still trying to remember how bitcoin works ;)
 104 2014-03-08 00:57:11 <gmaxwell> :)
 105 2014-03-08 00:57:18 _ImI_ has quit (Client Quit)
 106 2014-03-08 00:57:35 <gmaxwell> when you get stuck on fees come back, I have some thoughs though I'm not completely happy with them.
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 110 2014-03-08 01:00:21 <shadders_> fees... you mean the pool can't generate the coinbase because it doesn't know what Txs to include fees from?
 111 2014-03-08 01:01:00 TheButterZone has left ()
 112 2014-03-08 01:01:15 <gmaxwell> yep.
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 114 2014-03-08 01:02:05 <gmaxwell> two obvious solutions are (1) don't pool for the fee, which is really fine for now— pool lets you just put in a seperate output for the fees, and you're effectively solo mining them. Pool only pools the subsidy.
 115 2014-03-08 01:02:07 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 116 2014-03-08 01:02:08 <shadders_> So client will just have to generate CB itself... pool sends payout addresses... possibly auxblock and any other bits it needs
 117 2014-03-08 01:02:32 <gmaxwell> I think this has a lot of attractiveness for simplicity sake esp since fees are that substantal soloing them is fine.
 118 2014-03-08 01:02:33 <shadders_> I'm probably missing something...
 119 2014-03-08 01:03:20 <shadders_> Fees are still pretty insignificant yes?  i.e. not getting a fees unlikely to be a barrier to uptake?
 120 2014-03-08 01:03:35 <gmaxwell> who said anything about not getting any? they're just have high variance.
 121 2014-03-08 01:03:45 <gmaxwell> and I doubt it would bother anyone, they're like 1%.
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 124 2014-03-08 01:04:14 <gmaxwell> other alternative is that you do what you're saying— but you have to worry about how to fairly share the fees between (1) people who don't process txns at all (2) people who do ... and depending on how you do solve that (3) people who exploit that solution and have an incentive to submit invalid blocks claiming lots of fees in order to get a greater share.
 125 2014-03-08 01:05:50 <gmaxwell> solving 1/2/3 there starts sounding like you might have to have them constantly submit the whole block unless you want to do something like weigh based on claimed fees, and periodically challenge miners to provide the whole block, and if they fail they forfeit their earnings.
 126 2014-03-08 01:06:06 <gmaxwell> which may well be fine, but probably not pooling fees is much easier to implement. :)
 127 2014-03-08 01:06:15 <gmaxwell> and probably good for a couple years.
 128 2014-03-08 01:06:49 <shadders_> most pools collect fees centrally then distribute now don't they?
 129 2014-03-08 01:07:41 <gmaxwell> yes, though as mentioned, they're like 1% and miners would still earn them. Many pools do a block finder bonus to discourage withholding ... so they'd just be your blockfinder bonus. :)
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 131 2014-03-08 01:08:49 <TheBison> Can anyone link me to reading material on how to generate multiple-input unsigned transactions?
 132 2014-03-08 01:09:24 <gmaxwell> TheBison: call the createrawtransaction rpc in bitcoin-qt and give it multiple inputs?
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 136 2014-03-08 01:11:02 <TheBison> gmxwell Thanks, I'll take a look at that. Will that work for generating a transaction if I don't have access to the private keys? So I could sign it later on a "cold storage" machine which does have access to the private keys?
 137 2014-03-08 01:12:09 <gmaxwell> yes.
 138 2014-03-08 01:12:13 <sipa> TheBison: yes, signing is done separately using signrawtransaction
 139 2014-03-08 01:12:36 <TheBison> Great, definitely going to play with that. Thanks!
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 143 2014-03-08 01:15:32 <comboy> if there is a chain of transactions confirmed within one block, can I be sure they are in a poper order?
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 147 2014-03-08 01:17:10 <sipa> yes
 148 2014-03-08 01:17:31 <comboy> thanks
 149 2014-03-08 01:17:54 <shadders_> merged mining still centralized under that model... But that's a whole can of worms wriggling around in the too hard basket.
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 152 2014-03-08 01:19:38 <gmaxwell> shadders_: hm? no need for it to be— since you've allowed the coinbase to be malleable you could just choose. e.g. to take a centeralized merge or solo mine your merge... or do recursive coinbase only mining for it.
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 155 2014-03-08 01:21:23 <shadders_> ahh true...I was still thinking about the pool generating the CB.  The pool would have to send it's payout addresses for the aux chains as well... I think that can be bolted on afterwards though...
 156 2014-03-08 01:23:13 <shadders_> I suppose in theory you could mine the aux chains with a completely different pool.  If the btc pool would allow it.
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 158 2014-03-08 01:23:31 <gmaxwell> sure.
 159 2014-03-08 01:25:22 <shadders_> I'm thinking client side this could be implemented with a drop in replacement for stratum proxy.  Trying to work out the best approach to simplify implementation for pools.  Whether to build a seperate validation agent that the pool can run until it gets a native implementation.  Still mulling over what's need needed poolside
 160 2014-03-08 01:26:19 <shadders_> ease of transition is the key I think.  There's only a 'feelgood' motive for the miners to migrate so it has to be a low cost proposition
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 162 2014-03-08 01:26:59 <gmaxwell> ideally it could be setup as proxies, indeed.
 163 2014-03-08 01:27:20 <gmaxwell> both because a pool would want to offer it in parallel, and also because people don't know how to replace the firmware on their hardware :(
 164 2014-03-08 01:27:43 <gmaxwell> also cgminer is almost certian to refuse to implement this... so it would only be native in bfgminer.
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 166 2014-03-08 01:28:09 <shadders_> lol... some things haven't changed :)
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 168 2014-03-08 01:28:49 <shadders_> Any clues as to why Con won't like it?
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 195 2014-03-08 02:02:22 <shadders_> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getblocktemplate#History cute little rewrite of history there ;_)
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 286 2014-03-08 03:37:09 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: you forgot 4) people who include transactiosn with fees that are not cost-efficient to the network/pool (similar to 3)
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 289 2014-03-08 03:38:46 <Luke-Jr> shadders_: because COn is a troll and motivated by $$
 290 2014-03-08 03:39:28 <Luke-Jr> shadders_: no rewrite of history, that's what actually happened
 291 2014-03-08 03:39:56 <shadders_> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61731.0
 292 2014-03-08 03:40:04 <shadders_> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=51226.20
 293 2014-03-08 03:40:27 <Luke-Jr> point?
 294 2014-03-08 03:40:45 <shadders_> psj wm was released 3 months before
 295 2014-03-08 03:40:53 <Luke-Jr> try checking commit dates
 296 2014-03-08 03:41:36 <Luke-Jr> Eloipool was 2011 Oct 4
 297 2014-03-08 03:41:37 coeus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 298 2014-03-08 03:42:56 <Luke-Jr> shadders_: actually, aren't you the guy who wrote PSJ? surely you should have known that :P
 299 2014-03-08 03:43:16 askmike has joined
 300 2014-03-08 03:43:55 Duncan_ has joined
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 302 2014-03-08 03:44:52 <shadders_> I know when you built... discussed it with you extensively at the time... Just thought it was a cute way to frame it.
 303 2014-03-08 03:45:52 <Luke-Jr> shadders_: not sure what you're disputing then? XD
 304 2014-03-08 03:47:06 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 305 2014-03-08 03:47:37 askmike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 307 2014-03-08 03:48:37 HeySteve has joined
 308 2014-03-08 03:49:09 <Luke-Jr> shadders_: anyhow, client side easiest solution is probably extending libblkmaker
 309 2014-03-08 03:49:19 <Luke-Jr> lachesis already started on that, too
 310 2014-03-08 03:49:28 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_ I mena
 311 2014-03-08 03:49:29 <Luke-Jr> mean*
 312 2014-03-08 03:49:50 <shadders_> what does libbklmaker do?
 313 2014-03-08 03:50:09 <Luke-Jr> makes block headers from GBT data
 314 2014-03-08 03:50:23 <Luke-Jr> specifically designed to be extended to this use case
 315 2014-03-08 03:50:55 dustcoin has joined
 316 2014-03-08 03:51:00 <Luke-Jr> I have a branch in git that can generate stratum-like data too
 317 2014-03-08 03:51:28 <Luke-Jr> so making a proxy with it should be pretty straightforward
 318 2014-03-08 03:51:49 <shadders_> well that's no fun... I was looking forward to listening to all the whinging about java again
 319 2014-03-08 03:51:50 <Luke-Jr> (BFGMiner does support behaving as such a proxy already, but I can see why a standalone one would be nice)
 320 2014-03-08 03:51:59 <Luke-Jr> lol
 321 2014-03-08 03:52:24 <Luke-Jr> I'm sure DrHaribo would love a Java port! :P
 322 2014-03-08 03:53:46 <Luke-Jr> shadders_: there's also python-blkmaker which is essentially libblkmaker pythonised.
 323 2014-03-08 03:54:25 <Luke-Jr> (though nobody uses it, so it may not be up to date)
 324 2014-03-08 03:55:18 <shadders_> Most of the necessary already exists in PSJ.  Just need to seperate the relevant parts make a validator
 325 2014-03-08 03:55:23 espringe has joined
 326 2014-03-08 03:55:27 <shadders_> necessary code*
 327 2014-03-08 03:55:33 <shadders_> and of course implement stratum
 328 2014-03-08 03:56:30 <Luke-Jr> stratum doesn't do this :p
 329 2014-03-08 03:56:54 <Luke-Jr> or you mean for the client end?
 330 2014-03-08 03:57:06 <shadders_> to build a proxy
 331 2014-03-08 03:57:10 <Luke-Jr> hm
 332 2014-03-08 03:57:41 <Luke-Jr> the upstream end is the harder part IMO
 333 2014-03-08 03:58:00 <Luke-Jr> I made an Eloipool branch to "loop back" a while ago, but there were a lot of angles I didn't finish
 334 2014-03-08 03:58:48 surfer43 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
 335 2014-03-08 03:58:58 <shadders_> yes... musing over that now... wether a server end proxy could subsume some of the functions and limit the changes required in the server code so pools can transition gradually
 336 2014-03-08 03:59:58 <Luke-Jr> there's a lot of growing interest in this kind of thing. someone else to my surprise brought it up at the Future of Mining panel yesterday before I did!
 337 2014-03-08 04:01:23 <Luke-Jr> (or was that you? lol)
 338 2014-03-08 04:01:31 <embicoin> http://www.coindesk.com/gavin-andresen-bitcoin-companies-support-open-source/
 339 2014-03-08 04:01:50 <embicoin> Tell this to blockchain.info who is bitcoin fundation member..
 340 2014-03-08 04:01:53 <shadders_> nope if you're talking about the thing in germany I'm on the wrong side of the planet
 341 2014-03-08 04:02:36 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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 345 2014-03-08 04:06:29 <Luke-Jr> shadders_: nah, it was in Texas :p
 346 2014-03-08 04:06:53 <Luke-Jr> videos on https://vimeo.com/ondemand/texasbitcoinconference
 347 2014-03-08 04:08:34 <shadders_> still on the wrong side of the world
 348 2014-03-08 04:08:47 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 349 2014-03-08 04:08:49 Gabralkhan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 350 2014-03-08 04:09:48 <Luke-Jr> hmm, I wonder if they didn't video all of them :x
 351 2014-03-08 04:09:56 <skinnkavaj> Help me, thinking feedback of a security feature for an exchange. People lose things and forget codes right?
 352 2014-03-08 04:10:04 <skinnkavaj> After you setup Gauth for the first time.
 353 2014-03-08 04:10:04 <skinnkavaj> You should be redirected to another page that say:
 354 2014-03-08 04:10:04 <skinnkavaj> "Please write down your Google Authenticator code: <insert gauthcode>
 355 2014-03-08 04:10:04 <skinnkavaj> If you choose not, please buy a second mobile device you can set this up on before you continue.
 356 2014-03-08 04:10:04 <skinnkavaj> You can (blue button=leave this page) and setup Google Authenticator another time."
 357 2014-03-08 04:10:28 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: Google = lolwhatsecurity?
 358 2014-03-08 04:10:35 ziggamon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 359 2014-03-08 04:10:36 c0rw1n has joined
 360 2014-03-08 04:10:41 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: For the end user
 361 2014-03-08 04:10:51 <skinnkavaj> People lose passwords, devices
 362 2014-03-08 04:10:52 <skinnkavaj> Whatever.
 363 2014-03-08 04:14:10 Gyps has joined
 364 2014-03-08 04:14:21 <LarsLarsen> Google has thrown a lot of money at the problem of authenticating people.  Its way better to use their solution than to re-invent the wheel.
 365 2014-03-08 04:14:49  has quit (Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 369 2014-03-08 04:15:13 <Luke-Jr> LarsLarsen: trusting a centralised entity is a bad idea, especially Google
 370 2014-03-08 04:17:00 <skinnkavaj> "Or you can continue right now, write down this code, and hereby agree that if you lose this code you lose control of your account and everything deposited."
 371 2014-03-08 04:17:26 <skinnkavaj> I am forcing the end-user to write down a code, so he learns it.
 372 2014-03-08 04:17:35 <skinnkavaj> To be able to setup Gauth later.
 373 2014-03-08 04:17:44 Gyps has quit (Client Quit)
 374 2014-03-08 04:17:52 <skinnkavaj> If his device is lost.
 375 2014-03-08 04:18:12 <LarsLarsen> luke: it would be awesome if we could easily implement 2 factor auth ourselves for free without google.
 376 2014-03-08 04:18:27 <LarsLarsen> luke: but that is beyond most people's means
 377 2014-03-08 04:18:40 <skinnkavaj> I have had pin numbers on my site, written 3 BIG WARNINGS on 3 DIFFERENT pages, that if you lose your PIN there is no recover. Yet people ask me how to recover it.
 378 2014-03-08 04:18:40 da2ce7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 379 2014-03-08 04:18:57 <skinnkavaj> I guess it's just human to forget, and lose things..
 380 2014-03-08 04:19:08 <LarsLarsen> skinnkavaj: people come in here asking for help recovering their wallet passwords.  It will ALWAYS happen.
 381 2014-03-08 04:19:19 richcollins has joined
 382 2014-03-08 04:19:44 <skinnkavaj> So that's why I am encouraging the end-user to write down this Gauth code.
 383 2014-03-08 04:20:33 <arubi> just wanna say, gauth is not phoning home anything to google
 384 2014-03-08 04:20:49 <skinnkavaj> Btc-e have a system where the account is locked for two weeks on on Gauth lost, there was reddit thread about it long time ago that someone confused that as well.
 385 2014-03-08 04:20:52 <LarsLarsen> skinnkavaj: yes,  post it notes would have saved a lot of grief if they were used universally :)
 386 2014-03-08 04:20:58 <skinnkavaj> So to have no recover for Gauth code sounds best for me.
 387 2014-03-08 04:21:09 <LarsLarsen> arubi: yes its just a one time pad
 388 2014-03-08 04:22:23 <arubi> LarsLarsen, yea I thought somehow you meant that it was not only client sided. sorry
 389 2014-03-08 04:22:27 da2ce7 has joined
 390 2014-03-08 04:24:08 <LarsLarsen> Authenticator is a great system.... combined with a printout of backup keys,  they really can provide security without having to identify a person,  just the account itself
 391 2014-03-08 04:25:27 <arubi> I agree. Also, people should start working more with password managers like keepass. That'll solve a
 392 2014-03-08 04:25:33 <arubi> a lot of problems
 393 2014-03-08 04:25:50 <LarsLarsen> Yeah,  but you just move the problem to one easy to remember passphrase to unlock EVERYTHING
 394 2014-03-08 04:26:27 ThomasV has joined
 395 2014-03-08 04:26:37 <arubi> it can be used with a 2048 key
 396 2014-03-08 04:26:44 <arubi> 2048bit i mean
 397 2014-03-08 04:26:49 <LarsLarsen> The system of one time pads as backup passwords is great,  google didnt arrive at it because it wasn't the best solution :)
 398 2014-03-08 04:27:18 <arubi> It is great, but you still need passwords
 399 2014-03-08 04:27:29 <LarsLarsen> well thats only if you need accounts that need to be authenticated
 400 2014-03-08 04:27:41 <LarsLarsen> I mean,  bitcoin needs passwords.  Keys are just long hard to type passwords.
 401 2014-03-08 04:28:08 <arubi> they're also technically non crackable with brute force, unlike passwords
 402 2014-03-08 04:28:20 <LarsLarsen> you can think of a password then as a very short key
 403 2014-03-08 04:28:39 <arubi> exactly, that's why you need both
 404 2014-03-08 04:28:56 <LarsLarsen> length doesn't matter,  unless its random.  I can have a 1GB key with almost zero information content,  and I can cram a lot of information into 16 bytes.  :)
 405 2014-03-08 04:29:49 <arubi> I don't understand what you mean. The entire length of the key matters if the message is somehow manipulated by it
 406 2014-03-08 04:30:09 <arubi> even if it's all zeros
 407 2014-03-08 04:30:56 <LarsLarsen> Yes but if it doesn't contain a lot of information,  its not hard to find.  I.e. a 1GB key of english words in random order is easier to find than a truely random 1gb key
 408 2014-03-08 04:31:00 <LarsLarsen> its a smaller search space
 409 2014-03-08 04:31:13 Duncan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 410 2014-03-08 04:32:04 <LarsLarsen> So,  randomly generated passwords are harder to crack than comparatively longer human readable passphrases.
 411 2014-03-08 04:32:05 <arubi> with keys the search space is pre defined to be the length. with passwords, it's usually printable characters, up to what.. 30 chars length?
 412 2014-03-08 04:33:00 <LarsLarsen> arubi: yes,  you get 256^keylength instead of like 60^keylength permutations... I am with you there...
 413 2014-03-08 04:33:03 <Luke-Jr> LarsLarsen: if someone is running something that needs 2FA, they should be able to afford it
 414 2014-03-08 04:33:27 <arubi> Luke-Jr, it is free
 415 2014-03-08 04:33:28 <Luke-Jr> "for free" is for non-important things
 416 2014-03-08 04:33:39 <arubi> Ah ;)
 417 2014-03-08 04:34:05 <Luke-Jr> ie, cases where a simple password is fine
 418 2014-03-08 04:34:07 <LarsLarsen> luke: I don't see the downside to using google authenticator,  compared to all the other things google provides us,  I think the risk/benefit ratio is one of the most in our favor
 419 2014-03-08 04:34:19 embicoin has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 27.0.1/20140212131424])
 420 2014-03-08 04:34:26 <Luke-Jr> LarsLarsen: Google can hijack anyone's account..
 421 2014-03-08 04:34:50 <arubi> Luke-Jr, authenticator does not phone back to your google account
 422 2014-03-08 04:35:03 <Luke-Jr> no?
 423 2014-03-08 04:35:05 <LarsLarsen> luke: only because they trust their authenticator system implicitly and can ignore it.
 424 2014-03-08 04:35:08 <arubi> the secret is only on the 2nd factor device
 425 2014-03-08 04:35:20 <venzen> Google have shown themselves to be unethical on numerous occasions
 426 2014-03-08 04:35:25 <Luke-Jr> is this not the system where it prompts a Google website to confirm the login?
 427 2014-03-08 04:36:01 <arubi> Luke-Jr, no authenticator is time based 2fa
 428 2014-03-08 04:36:14 <Luke-Jr> …
 429 2014-03-08 04:37:01 <arubi> venzen, the code is open : http://code.google.com/p/google-authenticator/source/checkout
 430 2014-03-08 04:37:35 <venzen> arubi: sure - but the company that implements it is dishonest and yields to highest bidder
 431 2014-03-08 04:38:07 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
 432 2014-03-08 04:38:21 <venzen> perhaps such open code can be implemented away from Google?
 433 2014-03-08 04:38:23 <arubi> venzen, if it's so much of a problem to use them, there are python libs that do exactly that
 434 2014-03-08 04:38:28 <LarsLarsen> "The service provider generates an 80-bit secret key for each user. This is provided as a 16 character base32 string or as a QR code. The client creates an HMAC-SHA1 using this secret key. The message that is HMAC-ed can be:  the number of 30 second periods having elapsed since the Unix epoch; or the counter that is incremented with each new code.  A portion of the HMAC is extracted and converted to a 6 digit code."  -- wikipedia
 435 2014-03-08 04:39:15 <arubi> you don't even need to be online to use it, since it's always synced
 436 2014-03-08 04:39:24 <arubi> the 2nd factor device i mean
 437 2014-03-08 04:40:39 <LarsLarsen> The second factor device can also just be the 80 bit secret key (google issues you several,  and they're one-time-use backups in case you loose the auth device)
 438 2014-03-08 04:41:06 <LarsLarsen> so you can use it off paper if there is an EMP
 439 2014-03-08 04:41:08 <LarsLarsen> :)
 440 2014-03-08 04:41:18 <arubi> keep a photo of the original secret offline, problem solved.
 441 2014-03-08 04:41:48 <venzen> so anyone can offer 2fa using the open code, but it's just a case of people opting for a "trusted" name -> Google?
 442 2014-03-08 04:42:24 <LarsLarsen> venzen: I dont know how the third party thing works,  but from what I can tell you just input a key into their app,  and google doesn't know a damn thing.
 443 2014-03-08 04:42:32 AtashiCon has joined
 444 2014-03-08 04:42:33 <arubi> anyone can offer 2fa with any method, and you can use their 2fa with any other method
 445 2014-03-08 04:42:33 espringe has quit (Quit: espringe)
 446 2014-03-08 04:43:03 ghtdak has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 447 2014-03-08 04:43:05 <arubi> it's easier to use google's app because really, it's more trusted
 448 2014-03-08 04:43:16 askmike has joined
 449 2014-03-08 04:43:31 phantomspark has joined
 450 2014-03-08 04:43:45 <venzen> great, so this project could offer 2fa - because Google (while not knowing the secret) tracks usage - where, when, possibly who...
 451 2014-03-08 04:44:32 <LarsLarsen> How could google track usage?
 452 2014-03-08 04:44:46 <LarsLarsen> So,  you put a key into authenticator,  and it spits out 6 digit numbers every few seconds forever
 453 2014-03-08 04:45:03 <LarsLarsen> all google could know,  is if you run the app,  it could phone home and say "he's looking at the numbers!"
 454 2014-03-08 04:45:07 <arubi> yep, there is no usage
 455 2014-03-08 04:45:13 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 456 2014-03-08 04:45:16 <LarsLarsen> it shows you all numbers for all accounts you have set up with it at once
 457 2014-03-08 04:45:25 <LarsLarsen> so google doesn't know what you're logging into,  or if you're logging into anything at all
 458 2014-03-08 04:45:29 <arubi> it's just refreshing every few seconds, all keys all the time
 459 2014-03-08 04:45:43 <venzen> LarsLarsen: who knows? Through the app on the smartphone? Anyhow, we know that usgae tracking is their primary motivation
 460 2014-03-08 04:46:05 <LarsLarsen> The only thing they know is that you ran google authenticator and its showing you 4 different keys
 461 2014-03-08 04:46:12 <LarsLarsen> or however many its showing
 462 2014-03-08 04:46:24 <Luke-Jr> this must be different from what I am thinking of
 463 2014-03-08 04:46:26 <venzen> don't trust them
 464 2014-03-08 04:46:30 <arubi> they don't know anythin LarsLarsen
 465 2014-03-08 04:46:38 <Luke-Jr> websites where you click Login and it gives you a Google page to login with
 466 2014-03-08 04:47:00 <arubi> Luke-Jr, that's "sign it with google account"
 467 2014-03-08 04:47:10 <arubi> like "sign in with facebook"
 468 2014-03-08 04:47:21 owowo has quit (Quit: owowo)
 469 2014-03-08 04:47:24 <LarsLarsen> Well,  I think the fact they read all my email and my search queries is more troubling than the fact that they know I use two factor auth on coinbase
 470 2014-03-08 04:47:31 <Luke-Jr> so "Google Authenticator" is just software?
 471 2014-03-08 04:47:37 askmike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 472 2014-03-08 04:47:43 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
 473 2014-03-08 04:47:49 <arubi> yea, and it's only on the user's side
 474 2014-03-08 04:47:50 gunnis has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 475 2014-03-08 04:47:51 <LarsLarsen> yes,  its an app
 476 2014-03-08 04:47:56 reneg has quit (Quit: reneg)
 477 2014-03-08 04:48:00 [7] has joined
 478 2014-03-08 04:48:05 <LarsLarsen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Authenticator
 479 2014-03-08 04:48:09 <LarsLarsen> its free
 480 2014-03-08 04:48:13 <Luke-Jr> oh, so it assumes you trust Google enough to run Android..
 481 2014-03-08 04:48:19 reneg has joined
 482 2014-03-08 04:48:35 <arubi> pretty much, but there are python libs that do 2fa exactly the same
 483 2014-03-08 04:48:39 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
 484 2014-03-08 04:48:45 <LarsLarsen> well yes,  that is a flaw.... I wish they'd sell us hardware authenticators
 485 2014-03-08 04:48:55 <LarsLarsen> :)  Then we could REALLY trust them
 486 2014-03-08 04:48:56 notbrain has joined
 487 2014-03-08 04:49:01 <Luke-Jr> i c
 488 2014-03-08 04:49:03 <arubi> I have an old offline android phone with google auth, it works perfectly
 489 2014-03-08 04:49:15 gunnis has joined
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 494 2014-03-08 04:49:56 <LarsLarsen> yeah offline phone is a good call,  why pay money if you dont have to?  It should still work with the QR codes
 495 2014-03-08 04:50:42 kanzure has joined
 496 2014-03-08 04:50:45 <arubi> that's what it does
 497 2014-03-08 04:51:04 <LarsLarsen> damn,  I think I should cancel my phone,  its all I really use the damn thing for,  lol
 498 2014-03-08 04:51:36 <arubi> true :)
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 505 2014-03-08 04:55:37 <LarsLarsen> oh,  there is an ios version,  and its open source,  so.... yay :)
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 522 2014-03-08 05:17:47 <jcorgan> more bc.i weirdness.  some transactions showing in "address" view as unconfirmed, but clicking on them shows them with 21 confirmations
 523 2014-03-08 05:18:23 <jcorgan> look at incoming txes live for the DN donation address 1Dorian4RoXcnBv9hnQ4Y2C1an6NJ4UrjX
 524 2014-03-08 05:18:28 dansmith_btc2 has joined
 525 2014-03-08 05:18:36 dansmith_btc2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 526 2014-03-08 05:19:04 <jcorgan> hmm, txes listed for that address that have 1 confirmation in list view show up with 22 confirmations when viewed individually
 527 2014-03-08 05:19:17 <jcorgan> so someone has an off-by-20 error :)
 528 2014-03-08 05:19:31 <jcorgan> of off-by-21
 529 2014-03-08 05:20:27 <Graet> ;;tslb
 530 2014-03-08 05:20:29 <gribble> Time since last block: 26 minutes and 50 seconds
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 532 2014-03-08 05:24:34 <jcorgan> of course now it is magically fixed
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 578 2014-03-08 06:16:06 <dexX7_> blocks 289100, 288294 are missing txs on blockchain.info, happend the days before too
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 591 2014-03-08 06:34:01 <jcorgan> someone needs to run fsck.btc
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 598 2014-03-08 06:39:59 <dexX7_> btc is fine, it's rather blockchain.info that needs to fix their issue. they do this actually, but appearingly there appear new faulty blocks from time to time
 599 2014-03-08 06:42:03 <jcorgan> of course i know this is bc.i's database that has the problem
 600 2014-03-08 06:42:22 <jcorgan> and it is apparently more than just blocks arriving with missing txes
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 602 2014-03-08 06:44:06 <dexX7_> what more?
 603 2014-03-08 06:44:33 <arubi> do you think that the software that does the transactions rely on blockchain.info's own database, or the actuall blockchain?
 604 2014-03-08 06:44:44 <arubi> the software on bc.i that is
 605 2014-03-08 06:45:32 <dexX7_> i don't understand the question
 606 2014-03-08 06:46:24 <arubi> users can send funds to each other on bc.i right?
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 608 2014-03-08 06:47:04 <dexX7_> ah
 609 2014-03-08 06:47:14 <arubi> do you think they have their own database, with errors to manage those, or do they actually use the network
 610 2014-03-08 06:47:15 <arubi> yea
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 615 2014-03-08 06:50:42 <dexX7_> i can't think of a case where this could be abused
 616 2014-03-08 06:51:10 <dexX7_> bci always had less tx in the case of a missmatch, so it's rather the case that some coins are not yet spendable @bci, even if they'd use their own db
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 619 2014-03-08 06:52:42 <arubi> yea, that makes sense.
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 622 2014-03-08 06:54:28 <jcorgan> sure, just that when their display of number of confirmations for a given tx is different depending on what screen of theirs you look at, it tells you there is inconsistancy in their db somewhere
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 624 2014-03-08 06:57:11 <jcorgan> i had always trusted bc.i for small amounts of btc as a "hot wallet" for spending via their phone app, but now i don't trust their back-end database after seeing these oddnesses popping up the last few days
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 626 2014-03-08 06:59:37 <dexX7_> yea agreed. that doesn't supply confidence
 627 2014-03-08 06:59:58 <arubi> this is block 289100 :
 628 2014-03-08 06:59:58 <arubi> https://blockchain.info/rawblock/000000000000000049cc5d6ab637b8e0ec8bf07cfe1be201f1b6660547d1237f
 629 2014-03-08 07:00:13 <arubi> "block_index":472613,
 630 2014-03-08 07:00:21 <arubi> I don't get it..?
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 632 2014-03-08 07:01:06 <dexX7_> block index is the position within the block file, has nothing to do with the height (which is 289100)
 633 2014-03-08 07:01:21 <jcorgan> arubi: they keep track of all the side chains and orphan blocks they see broadcasted, so 'block_index' is probably a id field for all of those
 634 2014-03-08 07:01:26 <arubi> oh that's why the previous block has the same #
 635 2014-03-08 07:01:56 <arubi> how did I miss height right below it :D?
 636 2014-03-08 07:02:05 <dexX7_> huh? "hash":"000000000000000049cc5d6ab637b8e0ec8bf07cfe1be201f1b6660547d1237f", "prev_block":"000000000000000072a03d13245710a6df16bcc6d251870d8b6eb95ed396f2d4" - not similar
 637 2014-03-08 07:02:09 <dexX7_> xD
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 639 2014-03-08 07:02:26 <dexX7_> but this block misses transactions. the real chain has 987 and bci only 935
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 646 2014-03-08 07:05:15 <arubi> dexX7_, I actually get 986 on my chain (but let me double check)
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 648 2014-03-08 07:05:31 <arubi> whoops nope 987
 649 2014-03-08 07:05:58 <dexX7_> hehe
 650 2014-03-08 07:06:08 <dexX7_> there is a nice alternative: www.blockr.io
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 652 2014-03-08 07:06:44 <arubi> yea I like their interface better. the colors are not so white
 653 2014-03-08 07:09:50 <16WAA1NNQ> Hi Guyz
 654 2014-03-08 07:10:26 <16WAA1NNQ> reading up on the bitcoin source. What is the CDBEnv class used for ?
 655 2014-03-08 07:13:04 <jcorgan> so, i'm looking at a histogram i generated of the number of transactions per block over the entire blockchain
 656 2014-03-08 07:13:17 <jcorgan> http://imgur.com/UVhgWDh
 657 2014-03-08 07:13:56 <jcorgan> there is a to-be-expected decay as the numbers get larger
 658 2014-03-08 07:14:32 <jcorgan> but a very interesting set of "spikes" that correspond to blocks with 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, and 1024 transactions per block
 659 2014-03-08 07:14:41 <jcorgan> and one at 12
 660 2014-03-08 07:15:10 <jcorgan> very curious where these spikes come from
 661 2014-03-08 07:15:23 <arubi> pool software generating blocks?
 662 2014-03-08 07:17:21 <jcorgan> btw, it is zoomed in; the right side goes out to 3861 transactions, and on the left it starts at 4 as the height for 1-3 would be too high
 663 2014-03-08 07:18:09 <arubi> and if zoomed out, is there a spike between 1 and 3?
 664 2014-03-08 07:18:19 <arubi> i guess there's no way to tell actually..
 665 2014-03-08 07:18:47 <arubi> maybe the first powers of 2 also have this pattern
 666 2014-03-08 07:19:06 <jcorgan> no, it is highest at 1, then decreases monotonically to 7, where you see it go back up to the first visible maxima at 12
 667 2014-03-08 07:19:43 <jcorgan> but 30% of the blocks in the blockchain are coinbase only
 668 2014-03-08 07:20:59 <jcorgan> then the maxima are the powers of 2 from 32-1024, there isn't an effect at higher powers of 2 though
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 670 2014-03-08 07:22:38 <arubi> I'm thinking one of the older pool's software maybe be signing blocks with a higher bound on number of txes
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 673 2014-03-08 07:25:33 <jcorgan> i guess the core-devs all actually have lives are aren't here in IRC discussing statistical aspects of cryptocurrency on a Friday night.
 674 2014-03-08 07:26:11 <arubi> sat. morning ;)
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 681 2014-03-08 07:31:29 <fanquake> sat. afternoon ;)
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 687 2014-03-08 07:42:05 <aynstein> jcorgan: or they r in barbados
 688 2014-03-08 07:42:11 <aynstein> :)
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 779 2014-03-08 09:19:18 <Engendrure> Hi, I have a question about the rpc interface.. Is it correct, when I do not get a return for a gettxout call, that the output is spent?
 780 2014-03-08 09:19:58 <gmaxwell> that it doesn't exist in your current chainstate.
 781 2014-03-08 09:20:05 <gmaxwell> maybe it was spent, maybe it never existed.
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 784 2014-03-08 09:21:58 <Engendrure> Is there a better way to check if an output was spent?
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 799 2014-03-08 09:39:12 <ebfull> watchonly wallets are enabled on the trunk out of the box right?
 800 2014-03-08 09:39:32 <gmaxwell> no.
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 840 2014-03-08 10:38:32 <wumpus> no, that pull (#3383) still needs some work before it can be merged
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 846 2014-03-08 10:41:34 <wumpus> @wangbus on github was interested in picking it up, no idea whether he started working on it or how much progress he's made
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 870 2014-03-08 11:18:57 <dexX7_> wangbus. the guy who renews bitcointalk?
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 897 2014-03-08 11:49:46 <SomeoneWeird> dexX7_, renews?
 898 2014-03-08 11:51:01 <dexX7_> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=451893.0
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 904 2014-03-08 12:03:33 <SomeoneWeird> dexX7_, interesting
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 936 2014-03-08 12:36:08 <vegard> wow, I'm such a noob. I am starting bitcoind with -datadir=foobar without an existing block database and it gives me ": Error opening block database. Do you want to rebuild the block database now?"
 937 2014-03-08 12:36:26 <vegard> what do I need to do to initialise the block database?
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 940 2014-03-08 12:41:53 <vegard> ah... got an IO error, that's why it's not working.
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 961 2014-03-08 13:13:29 <dexX7_> vegard: you need to define a valid path.. is "foobar" one?
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 968 2014-03-08 13:19:26 <vegard> yeah. the problem is the filesystem doesn't support fsync() so leveldb syncing was failing
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 979 2014-03-08 13:40:05 <Luke-Jr> vegard: yeah, I think if the fs doesn't support fsync, failing might be the appropriate thing to do..
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1005 2014-03-08 14:23:40 <Goonie> Can someone help me with a possible malleability issue?
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1009 2014-03-08 14:32:45 <andytoshi> Goonie: probably, better to just ask (bearing in mind that this channel is focused on bitcoind and bitcoin-qt)
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1011 2014-03-08 14:33:55 <coinz4me> Uhh someone mind unbanning me from #bitcoin?  In all honesty I was in fact only making a joke.
1012 2014-03-08 14:34:19 <coinz4me> Kick I can understand, but a ban without warning?  Seriously?
1013 2014-03-08 14:38:06 <Joric> http://pit.dirty.ru/lepro/2/2014/03/08/174332-2dc7dd31314da31c51add0c014b1f371.jpg
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1041 2014-03-08 14:55:51 <Goonie> Ok I have two transactions that seem to be equal in all aspects, yet have a different tx hash.
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1044 2014-03-08 14:56:54 <Goonie> See my last comment on http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/detail?id=533
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1081 2014-03-08 15:55:35 <jaakkos> did someone ever consider optional chargeback mechanism for bitcoin?
1082 2014-03-08 15:56:03 <jaakkos> you could specify in output script that the tx redeeming this output can be chargebacked with the private key
1083 2014-03-08 15:56:17 <jaakkos> until some time has expired
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1085 2014-03-08 15:56:51 <jaakkos> well that has a huge problem though
1086 2014-03-08 15:56:53 <Luke-Jr> jaakkos: already exists
1087 2014-03-08 15:56:59 <Luke-Jr> nLockTime
1088 2014-03-08 15:57:11 <jaakkos> if the attacker gets the key, they can stop the original owner from moving them...
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1105 2014-03-08 16:09:19 <jaakkos> Luke-Jr: but you can't specify that an output has to be redeemed by a timelocked transaction?
1106 2014-03-08 16:09:45 <jaakkos> that might not make sense on its own without some other additions
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1110 2014-03-08 16:12:30 <jaakkos> what if you could say that an output can be redeemed with key A iff there is proper timelock too, or with key B without timelock. the key B would be kept very, very safe, while A could be more exposed.
1111 2014-03-08 16:13:46 <jaakkos> is it possible to write such script already?
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1125 2014-03-08 16:21:09 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: you're over complicating things, or else not being clear about what you were trying to achieve.
1126 2014-03-08 16:21:37 <gmaxwell> If you want to pay someone in a way that you can revoke before a timeout, you simply hand them an nlockedtime transaction and if you want to abort you spend it out from under them.
1127 2014-03-08 16:22:17 <gmaxwell> If you want a system where you can't defraud someone by improperly reversing, you use a multisignature transaction (e.g. http://bitrated.com/ )
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1130 2014-03-08 16:22:34 <Goonie> Can anyone give me a hint why these two transactions could have a different tx hash? http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/detail?id=533 (last comment)
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1132 2014-03-08 16:23:25 <Goonie> I compared all the fields you see. nLockTime is not set afaik.
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1135 2014-03-08 16:25:59 <gmaxwell> Goonie: I couldn't tell you without the actual transaction data.
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1138 2014-03-08 16:27:49 <Goonie> gmaxwell: Unfortunately I do not have that for the wallet dump. How can it be different? It should consist of exactly the values you see there, plus a version (=1) and the nLockTime field (should be 0 for both).
1139 2014-03-08 16:28:01 <Goonie> gmaxwell: Is there any "hidden data"?
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1142 2014-03-08 16:31:11 <gmaxwell> the data you've shown there is absolutely identical except for the txid and the formatting. You're not displaying anything about the serialization.
1143 2014-03-08 16:31:23 <gmaxwell> or the sequence number.
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1146 2014-03-08 16:32:35 <gmaxwell> e.g. I can't tell what kind of push opcodes are used on the two pushes in the signature there.
1147 2014-03-08 16:34:34 <vegard> wow you did a great job making the blockchain download faster.
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1149 2014-03-08 16:36:02 <Goonie> gmaxwell: Yes, that's what I was saying, it appears to be identical. So the push opcodes can be different? That's the kind of information I was searching for. Thanks.
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1156 2014-03-08 16:37:00 <Goonie> gmaxwell: But wait, the "push opcodes" should be in the scriptSig, right? That's identical as well.
1157 2014-03-08 16:37:05 <Luke-Jr> Goonie: 0.9 and 0.8.7 will be limiting push opcodes as non-standardness, but until then yes
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1159 2014-03-08 16:37:17 <Luke-Jr> Goonie: you're only displaying pushes as […]
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1161 2014-03-08 16:37:35 <Luke-Jr> so, don't know if they are OP_PUSHDATA2 or OP_PUSHDATA4 etc
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1163 2014-03-08 16:38:21 <Goonie> Luke-Jr: Ok thanks I will investigate.
1164 2014-03-08 16:40:16 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: i was thinking of a case where the private key gets compromised. the attacker would only be able to initiate a timelocked transaction. if the original owner notices this, he could cancel it with another private key, perhaps still kept secret.
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1174 2014-03-08 16:47:43 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: then you could have online service that may access the first key (A) that can only create timelocked transactions, but the more powerful key (B) would be kept secret
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1176 2014-03-08 16:48:08 <jaakkos> if they timelock is, say, an hour, the operators would have that much time to react to hacking
1177 2014-03-08 16:49:10 <jaakkos> their customers would also experience an hour delay with withdraws.
1178 2014-03-08 16:49:16 <paveljanik> jaakkos: but you have to count that these transaction can be "accountable" only after that time...
1179 2014-03-08 16:49:18 <paveljanik> yes
1180 2014-03-08 16:49:30 <jaakkos> but perhaps that wouldn't matter in some services like an exchnge.
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1189 2014-03-08 17:03:46 <Goonie> Luke-Jr: turns out bitcoinj doesn't keep the pushdata opcodes, it keeps just the data itself... http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/detail?id=534
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1195 2014-03-08 17:05:16 <gmaxwell> hm. is that really true? how could the bitcoinj full node stuff validate the chain?  there are txn in the chain which are not in canonical form and if you researalize you'll break the signatures.
1196 2014-03-08 17:06:05 <Goonie> gmaxwell: I think it also keeps the full byte array. But anyway, the full node code doesn't relay afaik.
1197 2014-03-08 17:06:17 <Goonie> gmaxwell: And its still highly experimental.
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1200 2014-03-08 17:06:42 <gmaxwell> sure but if it were always reseralizing it couldn't validate... keeping the bytearray would do that.
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1203 2014-03-08 17:11:39 <Goonie> gmaxwell: How do you mean? It obviously cannot reserialize because if it doesn't keep the PUSHDATA opcodes.
1204 2014-03-08 17:12:25 <Goonie> gmaxwell: In the case of pending tx that are relevant to an attached wallet, it just relays the blob of the tx.
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1324 2014-03-08 18:49:49 <Wustenfuchs> Is it possible to create transactions that harness nLockTime using the original client at the moment?
1325 2014-03-08 18:50:04 <Luke-Jr> no
1326 2014-03-08 18:50:05 <sipa> using createrawtransaction, i believe so
1327 2014-03-08 18:50:13 <Luke-Jr> that counts? heh
1328 2014-03-08 18:50:58 <Wustenfuchs> sipa: interesting, have you seen any examples around (before I spend several days figuring it out)
1329 2014-03-08 18:51:05 <sipa> no
1330 2014-03-08 18:51:51 <Wustenfuchs> I've been mislead a bit by certain forum posts, but my impression is the transactions that have nLockTime are not minable until after that time?
1331 2014-03-08 18:52:23 <sipa> correct
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1334 2014-03-08 18:53:38 <Wustenfuchs> And current implementations respect replaceability? (Aka, higher sequence numbers will replace lower transactions?)
1335 2014-03-08 18:54:01 <sipa> no
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1337 2014-03-08 18:55:34 <Wustenfuchs> sipa: Ok, so at this time there is no way to timelock and securely throw around a tx (updating, re-signing) without the risk of a previous tx being broadcast and becoming final?
1338 2014-03-08 18:55:56 <sipa> that risk always exists
1339 2014-03-08 18:56:00 <sipa> even with replacement
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1341 2014-03-08 18:56:05 <sipa> replacement is just a policy
1342 2014-03-08 18:56:09 <sipa> it is not enforceable
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1345 2014-03-08 18:56:45 <Wustenfuchs> sipa: true, because it is the miners choice which tx is the latest 'seen' right?
1346 2014-03-08 18:57:06 <sipa> indeed
1347 2014-03-08 18:57:17 <sipa> or rather, it is the miners choice which they like most
1348 2014-03-08 19:00:03 <Wustenfuchs> sipa: so I guess there is no solid way to do a dead man switch at this time?
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1350 2014-03-08 19:00:28 <Luke-Jr> Wustenfuchs: why not?
1351 2014-03-08 19:00:46 <Wustenfuchs> Luke-Jr: without giving others the ability to broadcast before you're dead, that is
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1356 2014-03-08 19:01:49 <Luke-Jr> Wustenfuchs: just give them a nLockTime'd transaction..
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1358 2014-03-08 19:02:37 <Wustenfuchs> Luke-Jr: but they could broadcast that even when your not dead?
1359 2014-03-08 19:02:45 <Luke-Jr> not until the time passes
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1362 2014-03-08 19:02:55 <Wustenfuchs> Right, but what if your not dead after the time passes.
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1364 2014-03-08 19:03:04 <Luke-Jr> then you spend it first
1365 2014-03-08 19:03:22 <Wustenfuchs> Right, it would require a continual movement... i guess that works
1366 2014-03-08 19:03:30 <sipa> heh?
1367 2014-03-08 19:03:39 newos has quit (Client Quit)
1368 2014-03-08 19:03:41 <Luke-Jr> or just have your server only publish the transaction if you don't tell it you're alive
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1370 2014-03-08 19:05:13 justanotheruser is now known as just[dead]
1371 2014-03-08 19:05:26 <Wustenfuchs> Luke-Jr: at which point you don't really need nLockTime :P
1372 2014-03-08 19:05:52 <Wustenfuchs> And its not verifiable by others until after you're dead
1373 2014-03-08 19:06:30 <vegard> gmaxwell suggested a service that stores your time locked transactions until they can be mined
1374 2014-03-08 19:06:50 <Luke-Jr> Wustenfuchs: I don't think there are any better solutions..
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1376 2014-03-08 19:07:13 <Wustenfuchs> Luke-Jr: most likely, just curious as to what was possible. Thanks :)
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1379 2014-03-08 19:08:48 <Wustenfuchs> vegard: I wonder if a P2P like service combined with some form of multi sig would be possible
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1381 2014-03-08 19:09:37 <Wustenfuchs> vegard: would probably need a blockchain of its own etc... probably not worth it
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1384 2014-03-08 19:14:33 <vegard> or you could just drop it in a public git repository
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1392 2014-03-08 19:20:29 <dexX7_> can someone tell me how i can redeem https://blockchain.info/tx/dda13a68c445f7022498c86edcc2291719e7435e86a72dc776c5ec5f510903a8? the hash = sha256(sha256(342038203135203136203233203432))
1393 2014-03-08 19:21:25 <maaku> scriptSig = [342038203135203136203233203432]
1394 2014-03-08 19:21:43 <maaku> not a very safe thing to do on mainnet
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1400 2014-03-08 19:22:12 <sipa> for $0.24 :)
1401 2014-03-08 19:22:34 <Luke-Jr> yeah, not worth the trouble :p
1402 2014-03-08 19:23:52 <dexX7_> 0100000001a80309515fecc576c72da7865e43e7191729c2dc6ec8982402f745c4683aa1dd000000000f342038203135203136203233203432ffffffff0130750000000000001976a914487747b3a9d3f7b68ab7f88f7115e91276bc851188ac00000000 is invalid
1403 2014-03-08 19:24:42 ziggamon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1404 2014-03-08 19:25:04 <sipa> dexX7_: the scriptSig needs to be a push of the byte sequence 342038203135203136203233203432
1405 2014-03-08 19:25:09 <sipa> not that bytesequence itself
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1407 2014-03-08 19:25:25 <maaku> dexX7_: what is 342038203135203136203233203432 -- a hex string? a number?
1408 2014-03-08 19:25:32 <sipa> oh
1409 2014-03-08 19:25:37 <dexX7_> "4 8 15 16 23 42" :D
1410 2014-03-08 19:25:59 <sipa> ok, so you need to prepend it with a push opcode
1411 2014-03-08 19:26:27 <dexX7_> i tried it with "0f"
1412 2014-03-08 19:26:28 <sipa> 0F342038203135203136203233203432 should do
1413 2014-03-08 19:27:33 <justanotheruser> In dexX7_' tx, why doesn't it include PUSH (hash)? It just puts it in the script and OP_HASH doesn't deal with the next item in the buffer, it deals with the stack.
1414 2014-03-08 19:27:40 <dexX7_> rejected. 100f is rejected, too
1415 2014-03-08 19:27:43 <maaku> shouldn't there also be a CompactSize for the length of the script too?
1416 2014-03-08 19:28:39 <dexX7_> 100f at least shows a non faulty asm when decoding
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1425 2014-03-08 19:37:11 * Luke-Jr wonders why such effort is being made to fix a non-issue, and notes it probably adds at least IBD overhead to delay things to constant-time…
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1427 2014-03-08 19:38:58 <sipa> Luke-Jr: which issue?
1428 2014-03-08 19:39:00 <sipa> or non-issue?
1429 2014-03-08 19:39:13 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the thing where you can get a private key from 300 signatures
1430 2014-03-08 19:39:21 <sipa> that is about signing
1431 2014-03-08 19:39:24 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin only signs once per key
1432 2014-03-08 19:39:26 <sipa> not verification
1433 2014-03-08 19:39:32 <sipa> so it's irrelevant for IBD
1434 2014-03-08 19:39:38 <Luke-Jr> ok, true
1435 2014-03-08 19:39:53 <Luke-Jr> still, not an issue. is there another benefit to constant time?
1436 2014-03-08 19:41:04 <sipa> i think it's unlikely an issue in many practical circumstances
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1438 2014-03-08 19:41:26 <sipa> still, preventing side-channel leaks (or at least hardening them) is good practice
1439 2014-03-08 19:41:32 <Luke-Jr> i c
1440 2014-03-08 19:42:05 <sipa> also, i believe libsecp256k1 doesn't suffer the weakness described in that paper (though may have others, obviously)
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1443 2014-03-08 19:44:08 <Luke-Jr> well, I certainly wouldn't think we need to blacklist OpenSSLs with this issue
1444 2014-03-08 19:44:17 <Luke-Jr> especially now that we're actively discouraging address reuse
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1453 2014-03-08 19:57:35 <dexX7_> according to the debug log the tx won't be accepted due to the nonstandard input + "nonstandard transaction: scriptsig-not-pushonly", if pushed with 11 4c 0f
1454 2014-03-08 19:58:21 <sipa> sure
1455 2014-03-08 19:58:25 <sipa> bitcoind will not accept it
1456 2014-03-08 19:58:42 <sipa> if you want it mined, you'll have to send it to a miner directly
1457 2014-03-08 20:01:07 <dexX7_> too bad, not even eligius accepts it
1458 2014-03-08 20:01:18 <sipa> wait, scriptsig-not-pushonly... that is wrong
1459 2014-03-08 20:01:21 <sipa> it should be push only
1460 2014-03-08 20:02:16 <dexX7_> i tried it with 10 0f hex and 11 4c 0f hex. the later results in the not-pushonly message
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1462 2014-03-08 20:04:39 <sipa> where does the 4c come from?
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1465 2014-03-08 20:05:30 <sipa> ah, pushdata1
1466 2014-03-08 20:05:38 <dexX7_> i looked at the original puzzle
1467 2014-03-08 20:05:40 <dexX7_> yup pushdata1
1468 2014-03-08 20:05:51 <sipa> don't use that, it's not necessary
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1470 2014-03-08 20:05:57 <sipa> and recent bitcoin code doesn't allow it
1471 2014-03-08 20:06:18 <dexX7_> ah i see
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1474 2014-03-08 20:06:52 <sipa> though it should not say not-push-only
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1476 2014-03-08 20:07:56 <dexX7_> that's in the log though :)
1477 2014-03-08 20:08:24 <dexX7_> oh wait
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1481 2014-03-08 20:08:43 <dexX7_> nonstandard transaction: scriptsig-non-canonical-push << that's the one
1482 2014-03-08 20:08:47 <dexX7_> sorry
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1494 2014-03-08 20:17:10 <saracen> will a node broadcast a block, when it itself, doesn't have the previous block the block references?
1495 2014-03-08 20:18:17 <sipa> no
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1524 2014-03-08 20:50:12 <LyndsySimon> I'm trying to re-implement base58 and b58c encoding in Python, so that it's compatible with both 2.x and 3.x. Preivous attempts have been based on others' code, and while I was able to make their tests pass the end result was always very brittle.
1525 2014-03-08 20:50:21 <LyndsySimon> I'm following the instructions on this page: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_import_format
1526 2014-03-08 20:50:56 <LyndsySimon> On step 3, the page is showing that sha256(800C28FCA386C7A227600B2FE50B7CAE11EC86D3BF1FBE471BE89827E19D72AA1D) is 8147786C4D15106333BF278D71DADAF1079EF2D2440A4DDE37D747DED5403592
1527 2014-03-08 20:51:13 <LyndsySimon> I can't reproduce that. I get e2e4146a36e9c455cf95a4f259f162c353cd419cc3fd0e69ae36d7d1b6cd2c09 every time I try.
1528 2014-03-08 20:52:49 <LyndsySimon> Can someone who's donw this before check for me to see if maybe the page is wrong?
1529 2014-03-08 20:54:14 greg_ has quit (Quit: greg_)
1530 2014-03-08 20:54:29 <vegard> hashlib.sha256("800C28FCA386C7A227600B2FE50B7CAE11EC86D3BF1FBE471BE89827E19D72AA1D".decode('hex')).hexdigest()
1531 2014-03-08 20:54:31 <kadoban> LyndsySimon: can't get the page to load.  Are you perhaps confusing the hexadecimal number as a string vs. the actual hexadecimal number as bits?
1532 2014-03-08 20:54:42 rastapopuloto has left ()
1533 2014-03-08 20:54:43 <kadoban> LyndsySimon: that's the most common error with that sort of thing
1534 2014-03-08 20:54:48 <vegard> returns 8147786c4d15106333bf278d71dadaf1079ef2d2440a4dde37d747ded5403592
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1536 2014-03-08 20:55:09 <LyndsySimon> kadoban: Perhaps - Python3's handling of bytes vs. strings is terribly confusing.
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1538 2014-03-08 20:55:25 <LyndsySimon> vegard: TY. It has to be my implementation, then.
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1541 2014-03-08 20:55:46 <LyndsySimon> Python's hashlib.sha256 expects an encoded string.
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1544 2014-03-08 20:57:03 <LyndsySimon> I can convert the hex string into an integer value, but then sha256 won't take it.
1545 2014-03-08 20:57:39 <sipa> you need to convert it to a byte sequence
1546 2014-03-08 20:57:45 <sipa> please, this isn't programming 101
1547 2014-03-08 20:57:53 greg_ has joined
1548 2014-03-08 20:58:30 <edcba> sipa: let him go maybe he just wants to start an exchange ! :)
1549 2014-03-08 20:58:36 <LyndsySimon> sipa: respectfully, I wasn't treating it as such. I have been a full-time developer for several years, Python's bytes/string handling only confusing me at th emoment.
1550 2014-03-08 20:58:42 <LyndsySimon> ...
1551 2014-03-08 20:58:52 <LyndsySimon> Is this what I can expect from this community?
1552 2014-03-08 20:58:52 <vegard> I already gave you the solution
1553 2014-03-08 20:59:03 <vegard> I gave you the python code that gives you the expected answer
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1556 2014-03-08 20:59:45 <LyndsySimon> vegard: Indeed. Thank you, I missed that line in my client.
1557 2014-03-08 20:59:52 <edcba> i know several 2+ years full time devs and they can't do shit
1558 2014-03-08 21:00:01 <sipa> LyndsySimon: if my answer insulted you i'm sorry; i'm sure many people are willing to help you, but this channel is not the place for that
1559 2014-03-08 21:00:42 <edcba> bitcoin requires a lot of programming skills
1560 2014-03-08 21:00:48 <LyndsySimon> sipa: I wasn't insulted, I have thicker skin than that. I did find it condesending and rude. I was expressing surprise.
1561 2014-03-08 21:02:22 <LyndsySimon> vegard: that was my confusion, actually. Your code doesn't work in Python 3. I'm testing that my modifications are correct now.
1562 2014-03-08 21:05:02 hubrt has joined
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1564 2014-03-08 21:05:45 <LyndsySimon> The following is correct for both version of Python: sha256(unhexlify("800C28FCA386C7A227600B2FE50B7CAE11EC86D3BF1FBE471BE89827E19D72AA1D")).hexdigest()
1565 2014-03-08 21:06:01 <LyndsySimon> unhexlify is in binascii, which is in the standard library.
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1607 2014-03-08 21:54:52 <midnightmagic> I see only two references to mempool.remove() : 1) when handling a disconnected block, 2) when handling a fresh block. I was under the impression that stale tx that didn't get mined were eventually deleted from the mempool due to age.
1608 2014-03-08 21:55:03 <midnightmagic> (Else, why bother retransmission?)
1609 2014-03-08 21:55:23 * midnightmagic lurks
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1611 2014-03-08 21:56:05 <sipa> no
1612 2014-03-08 21:56:15 <sipa> there have been such proposals, but no
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1615 2014-03-08 21:56:29 <midnightmagic> :-o
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1623 2014-03-08 22:03:32 <midnightmagic> does a rebroadcast floodfill a second time then?
1624 2014-03-08 22:04:02 <sipa> no
1625 2014-03-08 22:04:12 <sipa> but a rebroadcast may hit another node
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1627 2014-03-08 22:05:00 se[c] is now known as Guest63893
1628 2014-03-08 22:05:29 <midnightmagic> then the point in rebroadcast is that tiny chance that you're connected to a new, refreshed node, or one that for whatever reason didn't hear it in its current uptime since the last broadcast.
1629 2014-03-08 22:05:31 paveljanik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1630 2014-03-08 22:06:05 <sipa> yeah, node rotation would help
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1632 2014-03-08 22:07:12 <midnightmagic> or to help with nodes blockading your tx for whatever reason I guess too.
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1634 2014-03-08 22:07:59 BTC_Bear is now known as hbrntng!~BTC_Bear@unaffiliated/btc-bear/x-5233302|BTC_Bear
1635 2014-03-08 22:08:05 * midnightmagic suddenly wants to run passive statistics correlation with other people to discover naively mass-connected nodes and/or dummy nodes that don't verify.
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1638 2014-03-08 22:12:11 <Soligor> Bitcoin's Development Visualized (up to v0.9)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYJwen53cII
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1673 2014-03-08 22:51:13 <jcorgan> sipa, perhaps you could help explain some seemingly odd statistics on number of transactions in blocks
1674 2014-03-08 22:51:38 CBit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1675 2014-03-08 22:51:47 <jcorgan> i ran a histogram of transactions per block over the whole blockchain
1676 2014-03-08 22:51:49 <jcorgan> http://imgur.com/UVhgWDh
1677 2014-03-08 22:52:33 <jcorgan> the graph is a little zoomed in, and starts at 4 on the left
1678 2014-03-08 22:52:42 <jcorgan> the original goes all the way out to 3861
1679 2014-03-08 22:53:08 <jcorgan> anyway, there are spikes for powers-of-2 between 16 and 1024
1680 2014-03-08 22:53:11 <jcorgan> and also at 12
1681 2014-03-08 22:53:19 <jcorgan> sorry, between 32 and 1024
1682 2014-03-08 22:53:27 <jcorgan> and also at 12, but not 16
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1684 2014-03-08 22:53:40 <jcorgan> what could account for that?
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1724 2014-03-08 23:40:35 <sipa> jcorgan: there used to be a vulnerability where a valid block could be made look invalid, causing receiving peers to mark it as invalid
1725 2014-03-08 23:40:50 <sipa> jcorgan: blocks with a power-of-2 number of transactions were not affected
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1727 2014-03-08 23:41:01 <sipa> so some miners explicitly created those
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